EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid [Archive]

FiveGirlKit

13th Apr 2018, 15:13

See the link on here https://www.easa.europa.eu/brexit-negotiations , referring to a "NOTICE TO STAKEHOLDERS - WITHDRAWAL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND EU AVIATION SAFETY RULES" on the European Commission website, which says:

Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of the United Kingdom on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the withdrawal date in the EU. This concerns in particular:
 Certificates of airworthiness, restricted certificates of airworthiness, permits to fly, approvals of organisations responsible for the maintenance of products, parts and appliances, approvals for organisations responsible for the manufacture of products, parts and appliances, approvals for maintenance training organisations, and certificates for personnel responsible for the release of a product, part or appliance after maintenance, issued pursuant to Article 5 of the Basic Regulation;
 Pilot licences, pilot medical certificates, certificates for pilot training organisations, certificates for aero-medical centres, certificates for flight simulation training devices, certificates for persons responsible for providing flight training, flight simulation training or assessing pilots' skill, and certificates for aero medical examiners, issued pursuant to Article 7 of the Basic Regulation;
 Certificates for air operators and attestations for the cabin crew, issued pursuant to Article 8 of the Basic Regulation;
 Certificates for aerodromes, certificates for ATM/ANS providers, licences and medical certificates for air traffic controllers, certificates for air traffic controller training organisations, certificates for aero medical centres and aero medical examiners responsible for air traffic controllers, certificates for persons
etc

Heathrow Harry

13th Apr 2018, 15:26

we're the ones who are leaving - why should they help us????

Everyone was warned that BREXIT would bring chaos............ but hey! we can always depend on the USA & the Commonwealth

ATC Watcher

13th Apr 2018, 15:30

Bastardos...
are you referring to the people that voted to leave the EU or the EASA people ?:E

wiggy

13th Apr 2018, 15:43

Well if this is as advertised and is not a spoof or a late April 1st wind up.......Apparently many in the U.K. wanted freedom from the bureaucracy of the EU...presumably those people must see this as a good thing and welcome it with open arms......it would be somewhat hypocritical of them to “blame” the EU or EASA for this announcement..wouldn’t it?

ZFT

13th Apr 2018, 15:45

Why are you surprised?

If you leave any club, you lose club 'benefits' and/or privileges

Chaos is quite likely in the short term.

Volume

13th Apr 2018, 15:54

Still the UK has the possibility to change from an "EU Member State" to an "EASA Member State" like Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland.
But was that wat everybody wanted? To leave the EU but to keep all EU bureaucracy? I think it was more the opposite...
If you vote for change you can not expect everything to stay the same.

judge11

13th Apr 2018, 15:57

Shock horror! UK CAA has to do some work and provide value for it's exorbitant fees.

schweizer2

13th Apr 2018, 16:00

It was chaos when we changed to JAA, it was chaos when we transferred to EASA, it will be chaos when we transfer again.... just a new licence, same process... EU or not, it will be a form signed, another 100 quid then we're all set.

Hamburt Spinkleman

13th Apr 2018, 16:02

https://i2.wp.com/www.libertyclick.org/wp-content/uploads/Who-Wants-Change.png?w=6408

wiggy

13th Apr 2018, 16:07

Reading the source document the loss of validity on Brexit day is not something that is inevitable but it is clearly a pointed reminder to whom it may concern that if the UK hasn't reached a satisfactory transition deal with the EU by Brexit day then all that paperwork on the list is immediately null and void...

One would hope that would concentrate a few minds...but I have my doubts...

ImageGear

13th Apr 2018, 17:02

This will be sorted - too much would be lost by all Brexit affected parties. Landing rights, overflights,, etc. The potential to seriously damage the industry will prevent this ridiculous posturing from happening.

IG

Hussar 54

13th Apr 2018, 17:19

Just add it to the list of stuff to be negotiated over the next couple of years.

If, after, say, two years there is still no agreement, then we probably can conclude that one negotiating party probably doesn't actually want an agreement.

Why that would be ? Well......

aligee

13th Apr 2018, 17:28

OldLurker

13th Apr 2018, 17:29

I think people didn't know what they were voting for, in detail anyway. I don't recall EASA being mentioned by the mainstream media during the referendum campaign! If anyone had thought about it, they'd have thought that a sensible arrangement would be made and the UK would continue to be a member of EASA in some way, just as the UK would continue to be associated with various other EU agencies if common sense was followed. The negotiations aren't finished and there's still time to sort out an arrangement, if there's goodwill on both sides.

Icelanta

13th Apr 2018, 17:30

UK wanted out, now deal with the consequences.
No negociating or concessions by the EU/EASA.
Boohoo right...

Joe_K

13th Apr 2018, 17:36

Just add it to the list of stuff to be negotiated over the next couple of years.

Couple of years? Withdrawal date is 29 March 2019. 349 days from now.

Hussar 54

13th Apr 2018, 17:48

Couple of years? Withdrawal date is 29 March 2019. 349 days from now.

There will be a prolongation if not sorted and agreed by 29 March 2019.

Don't forget that there are more airlines / crew / manufacturers in the EU than the UK and to whom the sh*t and aggravation of having to meet any new UK legislation ( such as converting EASA licenses to UK licenses, perhaps, for all those EU citizens currently flying for UK based airlines to name just one example ) will be just as worrying / tiresome / problematic as for UK.

And that's not to even mention all the 100,000s of parts that Airbus will have to revalidate to the UK's ' satisfaction '....

HURZ

13th Apr 2018, 18:30

UK wants to leave..? Go ahead with all consequences, Europe does not need the Uk...
Sorry for all my UK pilot friends but you made your day by not voting...

ImageGear

13th Apr 2018, 18:30

...not to mention that the UK's "soon to be" Aircraft Manufacturing" industry may wish to protect their turf. :E

IG

Hussar 54

13th Apr 2018, 19:45

UK wants to leave..? Go ahead with all consequences, Europe does not need the Uk...
Sorry for all my UK pilot friends but you made your day by not voting...

Not really too sure there'll be too much of a problem for UK crew....

UK citizen, UK ATPL, etc....

The problems ( if this isn't resolved ) will be for the many non-UK citizens currently based in the UK with Easy, Ryanair, etc.

Do they convert to a UK ATPL which would then mean having to convert back to an EASA ATPL if they want to leave the UK to go back to a job in the EU ??

And a great way for UK citizens working for Easy / Ryanair crew to avoid having to be based in Brindisi or Gdansk or Malta or wherever.

But having said all that - I can't help believing that this is just ' process ' from the EU and as far as our industry is concerned, in two years' time we'll be wondering why any of us even thought it was worth contributing to this thread.

FlyingStone

13th Apr 2018, 20:10

Should UK not become an EASA member state after Brexit, UK licences will no longer be EASA-compliant and thus one will be able to hold both a UK licence and an EASA licence at the same time.

Tom Cundall

13th Apr 2018, 20:11

Go ahead with all consequences, Europe does not need the Uk...

Really? You sure?

55,573.

alicopter

13th Apr 2018, 20:12

quote
But having said all that - I can't help believing that this is just ' process ' from the EU and as far as our industry is concerned, in two years' time we'll be wondering why any of us even thought it was worth contributing to this thread.
unquote

Exactly!!!! can't you see???? the UK will NOT leave the EU, never, and all this is purely " Circus Act "........ In a few months, everything will get back to normal!!!
No worries.

hawkeye

13th Apr 2018, 20:59

When the implementation period is agreed EASA will continue to be the licensing authority for the UK. However, the UK would not wish to be beholden to the EU for ever, so it would make sense to re-establish the UK CAA. We have two years and nine months to get the CAA up and running again, which is achievable if the will is there. Whether or not Mike Vivien is up to the job is another question, but apparently 70% of the folk who work for EASA are Brits, so there should be no lack of manpower, if the price is right.

fox niner

13th Apr 2018, 21:00

From the moment that the UK joined the EU, the island nation has always asked for exemptions and exeptions from standard EU rulings. Why?
What makes the UK so special that it requires a different treatment compared to any other EU nation? Good riddance.
The UK will become some sort of Taiwan-China, known as UK-EU. Totally dependent and waiting for permission from Brussels in all affairs.

Time Traveller

13th Apr 2018, 21:24

Good riddance.
The UK will become some sort of Taiwan-China, known as UK-EU. Totally dependent and waiting for permission from Brussels in all affairs. Wow, what arrogance (and ignorance), worthy of Junker himself - and you wonder why they wanted out!

marvo999

13th Apr 2018, 21:25

How on earth did we survive before EASA?

edi_local

13th Apr 2018, 21:35

After reading the link provided I found this to be interesting

The European Union’s aviation safety legislation applies in 32 European countries – the current 28 EU Member States and the following four associated countries: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland. The countries to which this legislation applies will, for the purposes of simplification, hereafter be referred to as "EASA Member States".

Could the 4 associated countries become 5 in the next couple of years ?

I doubt EASA would complain, but the UK government seem to want to completely distance themselves from all things European, even if it's related to the EU or not. It's quite a bizarre road to go down. EU withdrawal is one thing, but there is no logical reason why associate membership of external agencies can't be maintained, especially if it will allow at least one industry to continue as it is today and has no direct link to the referendum result or is even something the electorate even know the slightest thing about. Or is May scared that staying in EASA will cause breixteers to riot in the streets?

From the moment that the UK joined the EU, the island nation has always asked for exemptions and exeptions from standard EU rulings. Why?
What makes the UK so special that it requires a different treatment compared to any other EU nation? Good riddance.
The UK will become some sort of Taiwan-China, known as UK-EU. Totally dependent and waiting for permission from Brussels in all affairs.

Couldn't have put it better myself...and I'm in the UK! Has a country ever gone to such lengths to deliberately weaken it's global standing so much? :}

Gertrude the Wombat

13th Apr 2018, 21:59

From the moment that the UK joined the EU, the island nation has always asked for exemptions and exeptions from standard EU rulings. Why?
What makes the UK so special that it requires a different treatment compared to any other EU nation?
Well, so far as the IR(R) is concerned we've got an answer: the weather.

judge11

13th Apr 2018, 22:27

How on earth did we survive before EASA?

Quite easily and happily.

Contact Approach

14th Apr 2018, 00:10

What does this mean for all us UK EASA holders?

jack11111

14th Apr 2018, 00:44

Doesn't UKIP have all the answers? All they wanted to do was poke out the eyes of the eurocrats. Ok. How did that feel...like revenge?

Enjoy.

4468

14th Apr 2018, 01:01

My word. There’s a lot of undemocratic anti Brexit, anti Brit feeling here!
Not really too sure there'll be too much of a problem for UK crew...
Couldn’t have put it better myself.

I don’t foresee any problems for UK residents, using UK licences to fly for UK airlines. Why would there be?

Or air traffic controllers working at UK airports.

On the other hand, those wishing/needing to retain currency on an EASA licence, whilst working in the UK, may have to rethink their employment situation?

Whilst the EU may wish to sabotage/punish the UK. I’m sure the tourist industries of places like Spain, Portugal, Greece, France, Italy etc would miss their British tourists spending their British pounds!

Not to mention a good few other inconvenient truths!

Highway1

14th Apr 2018, 01:15

What does this mean for all us UK EASA holders?

not a lot - EU citizenship is not a requirement to hold an EASA Licence

Highway1

14th Apr 2018, 01:17

On the other hand, those wishing/needing to retain currency on an EASA licence, whilst working in the UK, may have to rethink their employment situation?

Why? - you can hold an EASA licence in any country in the world and keep it current as long as you meet the recency requirements.

Dan Winterland

14th Apr 2018, 04:32

The CAA gives the option for EASA licence holders to be issued a parallel UK licence free of charge if a citizen of the UK. As a result, I hold both EASA and UK ATPLs. I suspect many EASA ATPLs issued by the CAA are also mirrored UK ATPLs.

And if you're applying for an ATPL issued by the UK CAA over the next year - top tip. Tick the box!

Cows getting bigger

14th Apr 2018, 05:36

..... yawn. We are all ICAO compliant, yes?

4468

14th Apr 2018, 06:02

Why? - you can hold an EASA licence in any country in the world and keep it current as long as you meet the recency requirements.
How will you keep an EASA licence current? When your 6 monthly checks are signed up on a UK CAA licence??:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

No problem at all for UK residents flying for UK airlines.

Bearing in mind EASA’s approach, why would anyone in the UK give a monkey’s about another agency’s licence requirements? What do UK citizens have to lose??:rolleyes:

Nothing!

Flocks

14th Apr 2018, 06:49

If not deal found (what I ll really find it surprising ... But this Brexit thing seems to be more about politics playing for themselves than really consideration for the people living in the country ...)

So ... If no deal found. I believe like said before, me I have an EASA licence but I m flying in Uk for a UK airline. So I believe Uk CAA will give me a UK licence based on my EASA so I ll have 2 licence. Now when I ll go to the sim to renewed my rating, it will only renewed my UK one, and I ll have on my own money to do the same test with private ATO to renew my EASA rating if I still want to be apply to apply to any EASA country.

But again I will be surprised if UK CAA doesn t stay with the European open SKY.

Denti

14th Apr 2018, 07:00

I think it equally unlikely that no deal will be found, however, the note doesn't say what you think. Yes, the UK might simply hand out licenses for whatever pilots they want to. However, your UK EASA license will be invalid on 30/03/2019. So you will not be able to renew any rating on that license, after all the license is no longer valid at all. However, if you transfer it to another EU country before that date, it will of course remain valid.

If not deal found (what I ll really find it surprising ... But this Brexit thing seems to be more about politics playing for themselves than really consideration for the people living in the country ...)

So ... If no deal found. I believe like said before, me I have an EASA licence but I m flying in Uk for a UK airline. So I believe Uk CAA will give me a UK licence based on my EASA so I ll have 2 licence. Now when I ll go to the sim to renewed my rating, it will only renewed my UK one, and I ll have on my own money to do the same test with private ATO to renew my EASA rating if I still want to be apply to apply to any EASA country.

But again I will be surprised if UK CAA doesn t stay with the European open SKY.

Wig Wag

14th Apr 2018, 07:10

Gertrude the Wombat

14th Apr 2018, 09:02

I don’t foresee any problems for UK residents, using UK licences to fly for UK airlines. Why would there be?
But how many people have UK licences? - don't most have EASA licences which will evaporate? Does the CAA have the capacity to issue them all with UK licences in time? Or will there be an ORS "deeming" EASA licences to be UK licences, renewed from month to month with all the uncertainty that brings, until the CAA get their act together? Have they started hiring and training yet? Is the legislation they need already in the parliamentary timetable?

Mac the Knife

14th Apr 2018, 11:31

Contact Approach

14th Apr 2018, 12:09

not a lot - EU citizenship is not a requirement to hold an EASA Licence

So what's all the fuss about? Are people just bored and fancy a rant?

ironbutt57

14th Apr 2018, 12:22

most often its a few steps rearward in the quest to advance far forward, as one who trained people with EASA licenses who were joining my former employer, the "standards" of competency were wide ranging from excellent to frightening, it made EASA look a bit of a farce really....so you Brits, grin and bear it, and go back to your excellent standard, and rise above the farce that is EASA..you'll be better off in the long run....this coming from an FAA license holder...

ELondonPax

14th Apr 2018, 12:55

"Simple as that - a complete non event."
Hmmm. Does the CAA have the capability (staff / expertise / systems) to take over everything? If not, can it be built in a year?
Having worked on large scale organisational change projects throughout my working life, the nativity of many of you about the scale of change required (these are safety critical issues - do you expect other regulators to 'just trust us') is staggering. This would be a major project, and no one has so much as lifted a pen to start it yet.

Highway1

14th Apr 2018, 13:30

So what's all the fuss about? Are people just bored and fancy a rant?

I'm not sure. For instance you can be an Indian Citizen and working in Dubai yet still hold an EASA Licence - so why UK citizens working in the UK will not be able to continue to hold a Licence is rather unclear.

Hussar 54

14th Apr 2018, 13:48

Just a quick reality check for those on here trying to turn this into a BREXIT bashing thread.

This is a perfect example of how and why it is so difficult to actually extricate yourself from the EU whether you want to or not. The EU just takes over so, so many parts of everyday life and everyday legislation - in this case huge chunks of Europe's aviation industry, both operators' and employees' ongoing ability ( and perhaps rights ) just to ' get on with it '.

If you like and / or agree with ever more centralised Government and one-size-fits-all legislation, then there's still the chance to avoid BREXIT and the possible difficulties that this particular change will bring to those of you based in the UK by taking yourself ( and family, perhaps ) to any number of non-UK operators who are screaming out for crew and engineers.

On the other hand, if you're a UK resident who feels optimistic about BREXIT, then just sit tight and wait for the probably massive increase in demand and resulting increase in T&Cs for suitably qualified crew if ( although I'm still sure doomsday won't happen ) the UK and EU agree to differ.

Really...It's that simple.

polax52

14th Apr 2018, 18:32

On the other hand, if you're a UK resident who feels optimistic about BREXIT, then just sit tight and wait for the probably massive increase in demand and resulting increase in T&Cs for suitably qualified crew if ( although I'm still sure doomsday won't happen ) the UK and EU agree to differ.

Really...It's that simple.

Sorry, but you're totally unrealistic. It's much more likely that Airlines will shift their AOC's to Europe and require European licences and maybe European passports. They will be able to operate in and out of the UK from Europe.
There remains doubt about Britain's right to open skies with the US after Brexit. Can you seriously imagine these questions will be answered before the end of this year? Forget it. Airlines will not remain British, except maybe charter operators.

Hussar 54

14th Apr 2018, 19:00

"NOTICE TO STAKEHOLDERS - WITHDRAWAL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND EU AVIATION SAFETY RULES"

Certificates issued before the withdrawal date by the competent authorities of EASA on the basis of the provisions of the Basic Regulation and its implementing rules will no longer be valid as of the UK'swithdrawal date from the EU.

Pussies that the UK are, sometimes, quid pro quo and all that....

RHS

14th Apr 2018, 19:13

Sorry, but you're totally unrealistic. It's much more likely that Airlines will shift their AOC's to Europe and require European licences and maybe European passports. They will be able to operate in and out of the UK from Europe.
There remains doubt about Britain's right to open skies with the US after Brexit. Can you seriously imagine these questions will be answered before the end of this year? Forget it. Airlines will not remain British, except maybe charter operators.

Yes I’m sure BA and Virgin will make all their British pilots redundant, then Hire and retrain another 4/5 thousand pilots at great expense?

Dairyground

14th Apr 2018, 19:14

If this holds, then any aircraft containing any part designed or manufactured by any entity deriving its privileges from or through the UK CAA will be declared on brexit day to be not airworthy in EASA-land. Similarly, any licences depending wholly or in part on training carried out by or certified by any entity that derives its authority through the UK CAA will cease to be valid in EASA-land.

polax52

14th Apr 2018, 19:21

Yes I’m sure BA and Virgin will make all their British pilots redundant, then Hire and retrain another 4/5 thousand pilots at great expense?

Look, I'm not pretending to be Liam Fox but this situation is very complicated and nothing is certain. Banks were a great investment in 2006.

IAG are shifting into Europe, a Norwegian takeover or reverse takeover would be a big part of that. Easyjet are doing the same. Virgin, we'll see?

RHS

14th Apr 2018, 20:38

Look, I'm not pretending to be Liam Fox but this situation is very complicated and nothing is certain. Banks were a great investment in 2006.

IAG are shifting into Europe, a Norwegian takeover or reverse takeover would be a big part of that. Easyjet are doing the same. Virgin, we'll see?

Absolute nonesense. IAG buying Norwegian (apparently, maybe) has nothing to do with IAG somehow shifting the business and disposing of BA (their BY FAR most valuable asset).

Everyone will play hardball, and then realise where the UK lies, if EASA/Europe plays hardball with UK aviation, then AF/Lufty/KLM will suddenly find flying to the US takes an extra couple of hours.

There’s a huge shortage of (good) pilots in Europe. If in your world EASA suddenly say to fly a European aircraft you must have a European passport (as you imply) then Easy/Ryanair/Norwegian/Virgin/BA etc. Etc. Stop flying as most of their pilots are British.

polax52

15th Apr 2018, 01:16

Absolute nonesense. IAG buying Norwegian (apparently, maybe) has nothing to do with IAG somehow shifting the business and disposing of BA (their BY FAR most valuable asset).

Everyone will play hardball, and then realise where the UK lies, if EASA/Europe plays hardball with UK aviation, then AF/Lufty/KLM will suddenly find flying to the US takes an extra couple of hours.

There’s a huge shortage of (good) pilots in Europe. If in your world EASA suddenly say to fly a European aircraft you must have a European passport (as you imply) then Easy/Ryanair/Norwegian/Virgin/BA etc. Etc. Stop flying as most of their pilots are British.

Absolute nonsense. You're making a very foolish assumption that a single person is making decisions based on what is best case for Britain and the EU.

You, as I, do not know the reasons why there is now so much involvement between BA and Norwegian but it is reasonable to speculate that with only a year to go to Brexit and no final transition deal in place, certainly with regard to Aerospace, that IAG/BA need to to find a clear path to maintain access to their open skies deal with the U.S. That access is not currently guaranteed. You can wishful think but the various managements cannot.

We're not talking about access to Airspace, so your second paragraph is .....
irrelevant, let's say.

The final deal will come as a result of a lot of legalities, regarding what you are allowed to do when you're not in the EU, with a lot of additional input from vested interests such as KLM and Lufthansa. Those vested interests will not have the best interests of BA or Virgin at heart and if BA remains a non-EU company then those interests will have a lot to say about BA's future.

Your final paragraph; I understood that the result of the Brexit referendum was in large part about stopping freedom of movement. If I understand you correctly, there will not be freedom of movement from the EU to the UK but British Pilots will continue to enjoy the privileges that they currently enjoy. Well that's excellent news.

Time Traveller

15th Apr 2018, 10:01

you must have a European passport (as you imply) then Easy/Ryanair/Norwegian/ 1. I think it is certain it will not be a requirement to have a EU passport to hold an EASA licence, and that's not the objective anyway. Right to work in a EU base is a separate issue, but loss of right to work in the EU is extremely unlikely, as that would be reciprocated by loss of EU citizens right to work in the UK (and they have far too much to lose in that scenario).
2. For the first two of those airlines, Brits are not in the majority, and Im guessing, likewise for norwegian.

Heathrow Harry

15th Apr 2018, 11:31

"and they have far too much to lose in that scenario"

yeah - they can go to the other 27 countries and we can go............. home

polax52

15th Apr 2018, 11:58

1. I think it is certain it will not be a requirement to have a EU passport to hold an EASA licence, and that's not the objective anyway. Right to work in a EU base is a separate issue, but loss of right to work in the EU is extremely unlikely, as that would be reciprocated by loss of EU citizens right to work in the UK (and they have far too much to lose in that scenario).

EU passport holders will not be sent home as they will have right to maintain there current residential status, as will UK passport holders residing in Europe. A UK passport holder the who maintains his residence in Italy (for example) would not then have the right to operate a flight between Spain and Germany. Where an EU passport holder based in the UK would remain unrestricted in Europe. Obviously this is all to be negotiated and probably Britain will remain in the customs union, single market and freedom of movement remains. Fingers crossed eh?

The point is though that there will be no new rights for the British to base themselves in the EU. Those who are currently based in the EU but maintain their British residence will be sent home. New IAG bases will need to be crewed with pilots who have the right to work in that location. I think that this is where we stand right now.

Highway1

15th Apr 2018, 11:59

Highway1

15th Apr 2018, 12:02

We're not talking about access to Airspace, so your second paragraph is .....
irrelevant, let's say.

Is it? - if UK issued EASA licences are no longer valid and not recognized how are the European airlines going to be able to fly to the US from their home countries through airspace controlled, by what will be to them, unlicensed ATC's?. The Insurance implications will prevent that if nothing else.

Bowmore

15th Apr 2018, 12:17

Why could UK not be a member of EASA after Brexit? Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, Croatia are, and are not EU members.

The Ancient Geek

15th Apr 2018, 13:00

Storm in a tea cup.
Britain can remain in EASA in the same way as several other non-EU nations.

This is just EASA telling the UK to get on with the negotiations and get it sorted, the politicians have neglected the task in favour of talking about other things such a trade and they needed a reminder.

SteppenHerring

15th Apr 2018, 15:13

Why could UK not be a member of EASA after Brexit? Norway, Iceland, Switzerland, Croatia are, and are not EU members.
Why do people keep saying that Croatia isn't a member? It has been for 5 years.:ugh:

All the others are members of the EEA - something else that the UK government has ruled out.

Jetscream 32

15th Apr 2018, 15:25

:eek: Well, there is only 622 people controlling the Brexit process on behalf of the UK Govt for the whole of the UK and all of its component parts, and I for one would like to know the credentials of the people whose task it is to sort out aviation? FOI anyone??

Bigpants

15th Apr 2018, 15:33

"Licenses? I don't need no stinking licenses"

I do have a PPL signed off in 1976 and a whole bunch of time expired CAA ATPLs including signatures of nice people who are now mostly dead. I figure I will just keep flying after Brexit and await some form of license in the post.

infrequentflyer789

15th Apr 2018, 15:48

Why do people keep saying that Croatia isn't a member? It has been for 5 years.:ugh:

All the others are members of the EEA - something else that the UK government has ruled out.

As pointed out by the poster you quoted, Switzerland is a member of EASA. It is not a member of either the EU or the EEA (rejected by a referendum with even smaller margin than the Brexit one).

Why is it people keep saying Switzerland is a member (of EU or EEA) ? - it never has been. :ugh:

Journey Man

15th Apr 2018, 16:36

UK wanted out, now deal with the consequences.
No negociating or concessions by the EU/EASA.
Boohoo right...

The pettiness embodied in your post echoes that of the EU towards anyone who doesn't share the Utopian dream. As a major European market, try not to forget that mainland European businesses also have a lot to lose by your "no nogociating (sic) or concessions" sabre rattling.

EAM

15th Apr 2018, 19:09

Why is it people keep saying Switzerland is a member (of EU or EEA) ? - it never has been. :ugh:

No its not, but Switzerland has their own agreements with the EU and it took them about 8 years to negotiate and have them in force.

The UK can do the same and rejoin EASA in, lets say 2026 or 2027.

JammedStab

16th Apr 2018, 02:39

"…if you vote for something you do have to accept the risk that you might actually get it."

Yup, dead right. And all the folk who wanted out (Make Britain Great Again!) are now starting to realize what they are going to lose.

It ain't gonna be fun…

Mac

:cool:

Think of it as the price for not having uncontrolled mass migration(as determined by a leader of another country) of certain people who create unacceptable conditions in your own country. Certainly you must have figured that out by now. Ask all the relatives and injured victims of their experiences and then compare to this minor issue.

So get on with it and it’s minor inconveniences to life. After all... life for some is a minor side benefit of all this.

ExSp33db1rd

16th Apr 2018, 03:57

I know most people don't usually get what they vote for, but if you vote for something you do have to accept the risk that you might actually get it.

Moral - be careful what you wish for.

triploss

16th Apr 2018, 04:59

As pointed out by the poster you quoted, Switzerland is a member of EASA. It is not a member of either the EU or the EEA (rejected by a referendum with even smaller margin than the Brexit one).

Why is it people keep saying Switzerland is a member (of EU or EEA) ? - it never has been. :ugh:

The Swiss do however have a lot more practice with referendums (moreover they are legally binding, plus they send out the voting papers to overseas voters a lot earlier than the UK did), so the result there is much more meaningful. They also have voted to keep various EU relationships alive, even without outright joining the EU.

But perhaps more importantly, the Swiss have a lot more practice at diplomacy, and judging by the fact that they are part of the free movement area AND various further EU related organisations, they seem to be aware that having a close relationship with the EU can lead to significant economic benefits (even if they don't want to be a 100% member). Whereas, judging by current politics and news, the UK is doing its best to shut itself off to and alienate itself from the rest of Europe. Insulting and misleading your negotiating partners is an easy way to make the process last at least twice as long as negotiating with Switzerland ever took.

And Switzerland has the strategic advantage of being in the middle of large road and rail traffic flows between Northern and Southern EU countries. That gives the EU good reason to be friendlier since Switzerland could easily cause major disruption, whereas the UK isn't really that significant.

Jetscream 32

16th Apr 2018, 06:32

28 different cultures, 28 different views and 28 interpretations of the process along with millions of industries relying on a good outcome.... from now on its poker!

Mr Mac

16th Apr 2018, 07:18

Jetscream32
Well lets hope it is Poker as by judging by the endless gambling adverts seen on UK television it appears to be one of the UK few growth industries sad as it is.

Regards
Mr Mac

RLinSW4

16th Apr 2018, 08:27

judging by current politics and news, the UK is doing its best to shut itself off to and alienate itself from the rest of Europe. Insulting and misleading your negotiating partners is an easy way to make the process last at least twice as long as negotiating with Switzerland ever took.

It all arises from the EU's arrogance and bullying. Negotiating transitional trade terms need not be slow. I was involved in putting together the complex of agreements that covered the move of the UK, Denmark and the Irish Republic from membership of EFTA to membership of the European Communities in 1972, this also involved creating an agreement between the enlarged ECs and the remnants of EFTA. All was completed by the time we signed the treaty of accession - less than two years. If the EU really put their economic interests first they would be doing something similar now. Rather they are trying to punish the UK for not wanting to be part of their grand project.

ExXB

16th Apr 2018, 10:33

Rather than trying to punish the excited kingdom, they have decided not to facilitate the process of leaving the union. And this for obvious reasons.

You made your bed, etc.

Consol

16th Apr 2018, 10:42

It would be a lot simpler for everybody if the UK just decided not to leave....

falcon12

16th Apr 2018, 13:04

I heard that the CAA at Gatwick closed their Brexit office at the end of last year. If they did, someone somewhere knew what the outcome is going to be. And that someone should have realised that being in EASA still means being beholding to the ECJ.

Additionally, so I read somewhere, there are some 65 Open Skies agreements to be renegotiated assuming we are leaving. That raises the questions of majority UK ownership of UK airlines which leaves some big names with big problems.

So, personally, I hope the KISS principal will be applied as regards aviation. The alternative is not appealing the way its going at the moment.

101917

16th Apr 2018, 14:03

The disaster that is Brexit continues unabated and aviation is going to be no small part of it.

The UK aviation industry, which plays a major part in the economic success of the UK is posed to go one of two ways. Firstly, if the UK remains in EASA, albeit without the right to influence or vote on the ‘rules’ then it may well survive reasonably intact. However, in order for this to happen the UK Government and our aviation companies would be subject to the ECJ which is an anathema to the hard line, right wing Brexiteers as they want nothing to do with the ECJ.

If the UK aviation industry does not remain a member of EASA and is no longer a part of Open Skies, then any or all of the following could occur with unforeseen consequences for the industry.

• The UK retains sovereignty over its airspace and has no say in the EU’s airspace as is allowed now under EASA and open skies

• The UK would have very limited “freedoms” of the air

• Traffic rights would be given by bilateral agreements and not in line with open skies

• The EU and its members would protect their national airlines and aviation companies and limit/prohibit competition from the UK

• The EU would only allow the use of designated airports and not as occurs with open skies

• There could be single airline designation on certain routes from the UK

• There could be limited frequencies / capacity

• A requirement for double approval for fares between the UK and the EU

• A requirement for pooling agreements between airlines flying between the UK and the EU countries

• Prior to open skies most airlines were state-owned. It would be a tragedy if this ever returned.

None of the above would help the UK economy or consumer, including those who voted for Brexit.

It is no surprise that both easyJet and Thomas Cook are setting up headquarters in Europe. Other airlines are looking at ways of protecting themselves.

birmingham

16th Apr 2018, 14:32

This notification is simply a statement of fact. The UK government plans a bill to retain EU law for the transition period. The ECJ retains authority over certain matters in the transition period and any transition from EU oversight takes place gradually after that.

BUT ... none of this has been agreed yet. Both the EU and the UK would lose out significantly unless these matters are settled. The assumption is they will be settled. After all, disruption on this scale is unthinkable to both parties.

BUT ... they aren't settled yet (or even remotely close to being settled) and we really need to get on with this to avoid chaos.

In my personal opinion it will be impossible to do anything other than accept EASA for now. Our pre-EASA bi-lateral agreements no longer apply. Bi-lateral negotiations, open skies agreements etc. will take a long time - there is nothing we can do about other countries parliamentary timescales - and that assumes the political will is there.

I think EASA in some shape or form with ECJ involvement in some shape or form is pretty much inevitable.

Skyjob

16th Apr 2018, 14:56

Brexit has been an ugly head rearing its head and not being thought through, certainly not presented to the voters in honesty of which problems could be arising.

The people loose out, employees, travellers alike.

To date there is:
NO guarantee UK passport holders can remain in and work in EU;
NO guarantee EU passport holders can remain in and work in UK;
NO guarantee existing arrangement for licences will be transferrable and or accepted;
NO guarantee of flying rights as per 101917 above
NO guarantee EU airlines will be able to have UK personnel;
NO guarantee UK airlines will be able to have UK personnel;
NO guarantee EU airlines will be able to operate out of UK as at present (eg Ryanair);

Brexit was a vote by the older generation to show their resent of never having had a vote prior to ever increasing integration. Unfortunately it not them that will live with the consequences of their choices.
Instead the younger generation which voted REMAIN in overwhelming numbers and is not aware of any other way sees the benefit of the EU, the freedoms of travel and employment it offers, suffers most, for longer and possibly irreversible to the current status quo.

polax52

16th Apr 2018, 19:59

Bill Macgillivray

16th Apr 2018, 20:17

Skyjob,
I do take exception to your overall assessment of older people (and on this forum many older ex-pilots!) resenting the EU ! It may be the case for some but certainly not for all! Some of us geriatrics are actually quite pro-EU (obviously some things are not right but that applies to many things!)

Please do not generalise!! This is in part why there are so many disagreements.

Let us try and get some sense out of it, we all need each other.

Bill

Gertrude the Wombat

16th Apr 2018, 20:26

I do take exception to your overall assessment of older people (and on this forum many older ex-pilots!) resenting the EU ! It may be the case for some but certainly not for all! Some of us geriatrics are actually quite pro-EU
Like my mother. She lived through the war. Voting remain was a complete no-brainer for her.

Skyjob

16th Apr 2018, 20:41

Please do not generalise!! This is in part why there are so many disagreements.
My apologies for sounding generalised, unfortunately statistics didn't lie after the vote, showing this, I wish it were different.

Like many, I am one of those in a situation where my future at current airline at current location and therefore my livelihood and family life is at stake. And I did not get a vote, having been UK based for 2 decades paying HMRC to fund the economy and support it! But it will be my life, my family's life and livelihood at stake, due no fault nor choice of our own. Thanks you to the Leave Voters, I am sure I will be easily replaced by a UK version instead.

Mister Geezer

16th Apr 2018, 21:01

The whole precess of the UK leaving the EU could be made a lot smoother but the resentment, anger and frustration from the EU side, is still very much palpable. Unless this subsidies, then progress shall be slow and painstaking. Hearing the very recent quotes of Tusk saying he is 'furious' about Brexit and Verhofstadt using such an adjective on BBC as 'stupid' to describe the process, shows the strong level of bitterness that still exists. This will do little to appease the politicians who are staunch supporters of Brexit and especially with the overflow of raw emotion and feeling from the EU side.

I get the feeling that those with any degree of influence and control within the EU, seem to be determined on going out of their way to make the Brexit process as complicated and as painful for the UK, as it possibly can be. The ramifications for the aviation industry could be significant but it doesn't have to be this way. It could be far more harmonious!!!

Gertrude the Wombat

16th Apr 2018, 22:02

The whole precess of the UK leaving the EU could be made a lot smoother but the resentment, anger and frustration from the EU side, is still very much palpable.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, all they're doing is waiting for the UK to decide what it wants. (Other than the free rainbow coloured flying unicorns which is all we've asked for so far of course.)

Mister Geezer

16th Apr 2018, 22:31

Meanwhile, back in the real world, all they're doing is waiting for the UK to decide what it wants. (Other than the free rainbow coloured flying unicorns which is all we've asked for so far of course.)

Should it be simply a case of waiting, then why do we see such a robust and stern tone from politicians from Brussels, rather than one that is more placid and passive? They could indeed be frustrated at the lack of progress from the UK side but why should this frustration be so palpable, when they make it abundantly clear that Brits have far more to loose from what is going to happen.

The EU will continue to exist regardless of how amicable future negations turn out to be (or not!) but one could be forgiven that the roles have been reversed given on which side the raw feeling seems to be strongest.

4468

16th Apr 2018, 22:50

Is it just me, or do a fair number of these Brexit bashers appear to be non UK resident?

Why do they care???

reynoldsno1

16th Apr 2018, 23:10

I now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the United Nations Organisation. Under and within that world concept we must recreate the European family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe, and the first practical step will be to form a Council of Europe.

Some old geezer called Churchill, in 1946 at the University of Zurich

Piltdown Man

17th Apr 2018, 09:46

This is not a crisis, it’s just an administrative hiccup. It’s will be solved eventually and a pragmatic solution will be found. It is just a pity that some people find it difficult to accept that a decision taken by the UK electorate will actually be followed up by action. In this case it is to leave the EU. It is just a shame that the EU did not accept that this was a possibility. The writing on the wall was clear when the ink on the signature to the Maastricht treat was still wet. Despite our huge list of faults and failings, the British have a deep desire for personal freedoms and the right to self determination. We are unable to accept being ruled by anybody we can not remove from office. We are very pro-European and have proved this on many an occasion. On 31 December 2006 we made our last payment of £45.5 million clear our WW2 debt to the US and in March 2015 we eventually cleared our WW1 debt of £1.9 billion. And some of my relatives are still in northern France and in the Atlantic.

How we leave the EU is up to negotiation and the intent by both sides. Unfortunately there are many in Europe with short term, vindictive memories who would like to see us punished for leaving but there are also a great number of sensible peope who would like to see a fair and reasonable outcome. A good reason would be that we are the second largest economy in Europe. And damaging our economy means we will all suffer. So with my most optimistic hat on I envisage a reasonable outcome - eventually. But I’m under no illusion that this will happen in a timely fashion. The EASA are not epitome of bureaucratic efficiency. After all, why should they be? They are totally unaccountable and answerable to nobody. Which is possibly one of the reasons...

PM

ExXB

17th Apr 2018, 11:27

Overflight is not effected in any way. Totally different convention from the EU open skies. I think -Chicago convention from many years prior to any EU agreement.

The International Air Services Transit Agreement done at Chicago 7 December 1944. This agreement effectively grants unlimited 1st freedom (overflight) and 2nd freedom (tech stop) rights by a signatory to all other signatories. The U.K. and most other EU member States are signatories.

If one party renounces it (a years notice necessary) they remove overflight/transit rights for themselves as well as for other signatories over their territory. Canada renounced their participation in the ‘80s requiring them to propose revisions to all their existing Air Services agreements to include 1st/2nd freedom rights. That took quite a few years as I recall.

BluSdUp

18th Apr 2018, 14:16

ZeBedie

19th Apr 2018, 09:06

Surely the UKCAA will issue an amendment to the EASA licence to say that it is now a valid UK licence? A slip of paper is all it would take.

judge11

19th Apr 2018, 10:15

............and some sticky labels. Mountain - molehill - go!

jayteeto

19th Apr 2018, 13:43

OMG
This is disastrous!

We might have to stop flying in Europe, like the Americans/ Middle East countries and Australians do.....

Hang on a minute.............

polax52

19th Apr 2018, 16:22

To get back to the real subject which of course is Aerospace related. Whilst the fishing industry will benefit from Brexit, the British Airline industry and community will not. The Aerospace industry is significantly larger than the fishing industry. The phenominal growth of the Airline industry has resulted from the Open skies deal between EU and EEA nations. It is subject to the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The Open Skies deal came about largely because of significant lobbying by the the UK CAA and government.

In electing to Brexit we are making a national choice to leave open skies, EASA and the Jurisdiction of the ECJ. A consortium of British Airports said last year that this was likely to ground 43% of flights. This would lead to difficulties in connecting passengers to and from EU airports travelling long haul out of the UK. It would also create massive logistical problems having so many aircraft grounded. Obviously the final deal with the EU will dictate the survival of the British Aerospace industry. Wishful thinking is however foolish in my view. The decision will be made systemically not rationally.

polax52

19th Apr 2018, 16:30

OMG
This is disastrous!

We might have to stop flying in Europe, like the Americans/ Middle East countries and Australians do.....

Hang on a minute.............

You really don't get it. Those nations have bilateral agreements, negotiated over years. Those bilateral agreements are extremely restrictive and cannot replace open skies. They certainly cannot replace the freedoms the British Pilots have to move within the EU.

Either March 30th 2019 or January 1st 2021, as things currently stand we'll lose everything and be more restricted than the countries you listed. The only exception maybe pre-existing bilateral agreements.

Litebulbs

19th Apr 2018, 18:39

Will regulation become cheaper or more expensive for the UK? I don't "know" the answer, but I certainly have a view. It is why the ICAO supports regional rather than state regulation.

I have absolutely no doubt that the UKCAA will be a gold standard regulator, but it won't be cheap and therefore "could" put UK carriers at a disadvantage against the shared services of EASA.

Hussar 54

19th Apr 2018, 20:48

polax52

19th Apr 2018, 21:56

Not arguing....But just wondering what the evidence is for that,

As far as I'm aware, the only UK airline which has successfully benefited is Easy, and even then to nothing like the extent of O'Leary's Flying Circus.

But....How about my $10 against your $10 that not even 4.3%, forget 43%, of UK <> EU flights will suddenly be grounded come BREXIT day.

The rest of your post, yes I agree....

That 43% was a figure from a consortium of British Airports, which headlined last year. I'll try to find a link for it. I agree that if agreement is found with the EU, which I suppose it will be(???), then planes will fly. The cost of that agreement would also, I suppose, be high.

Regarding your other point, Britain has around 1000 registered commercial Airliners. The majority of those are benefiting from EU open skies. I'm baffled by your first statement, it's wrong.

VinRouge

19th Apr 2018, 22:00

OMG
This is disastrous!

We might have to stop flying in Europe, like the Americans/ Middle East countries and Australians do.....

Hang on a minute.............
But we will have to stop doing trips to other Euro nations from another Euro nation, meaning the shorthaul market will take a kicking. Cabotage anyone?

polax52

19th Apr 2018, 22:14

Looking for the link to my previously mentioned point and found this interesting article:

https://centreforaviation.com/insights/analysis/the-great-brexit-aviation-debate-a-transition-deal-is-needed-to-avoid-disaster-for-uk-airlines-380522

zz9

19th Apr 2018, 22:53

In a meeting last year in EU , Junker was making a plan to react to UK.
He looks around the table and asks every EU country to make a list of what they and EU needed from UK in the future. So as to have a list of things EU could not do without !

The room fell silent as everyone worked hard!
After a few seconds someone concluded :

Nothing!

Gone flying!
Cpt B

How will Airbus do without wings? :eek:

And the UK will be the EU's biggest single export market after Brexit. Any significant loss to that trade will hurt them big time.

Hussar 54

20th Apr 2018, 00:02

That 43% was a figure from a consortium of British Airports, which headlined last year. I'll try to find a link for it. I agree that if agreement is found with the EU, which I suppose it will be(???), then planes will fly. The cost of that agreement would also, I suppose, be high.

Regarding your other point, Britain has around 1000 registered commercial Airliners. The majority of those are benefiting from EU open skies. I'm baffled by your first statement, it's wrong.

You're CAPA link is interesting - some articles definitely thought provoking, some absolutely not.

As for the 1,000 UK aircraft benefiting from EU Open Skies....

Again, not arguing, but in which / what way ? I'm sure someone will come on very quickly and correct me, but at the moment I can only think of Easy who have non-UK bases with permanently based aircraft flying on a UK AOC and with UK crews, who have made the same success of EU Open Skies as, say, Ryanair, Wizz, Germanwings, Transavia, Vueling, etc....

Maybe that's just a UK thing, but EU Open Skies has certainly not helped the majority of UK airlines a whole lot more than good, old, bi-Laterals had the UK never been in the EU. If anything, UK airlines have struggled as bottom feeders from Eastern and Southern Europe have taken huge percentages of the UK <> EU market and beyond the EU.

At the end of the day, I reckon aviation in general will not be hugely affected come BREXIT day, despite the EASA announcement EXCEPT crews and engineers who will have to decide whether to stay where they are now ; head for home from wherever they are now ; or up sticks and go to wherever because they like / dislike the impact BREXIT might have on their careers.

polax52

20th Apr 2018, 02:50

You're CAPA link is interesting - some articles definitely thought provoking, some absolutely not.

As for the 1,000 UK aircraft benefiting from EU Open Skies....

Again, not arguing, but in which / what way ? I'm sure someone will come on very quickly and correct me, but at the moment I can only think of Easy who have non-UK bases with permanently based aircraft flying on a UK AOC and with UK crews, who have made the same success of EU Open Skies as, say, Ryanair, Wizz, Germanwings, Transavia, Vueling, etc....

Maybe that's just a UK thing, but EU Open Skies has certainly not helped the majority of UK airlines a whole lot more than good, old, bi-Laterals had the UK never been in the EU. If anything, UK airlines have struggled as bottom feeders from Eastern and Southern Europe have taken huge percentages of the UK <> EU market and beyond the EU.

At the end of the day, I reckon aviation in general will not be hugely affected come BREXIT day, despite the EASA announcement EXCEPT crews and engineers who will have to decide whether to stay where they are now ; head for home from wherever they are now ; or up sticks and go to wherever because they like / dislike the impact BREXIT might have on their careers.

Prior to open skies in Europe, Airlines such as Monarch or Britannia were only able to run charter flights to agreed holiday destinations. They could not just say we're now going to operate a scheduled service from e.g. Gatwick to Malaga. The bilateral that would exist between the UK and Spain would be the agreement that BA can fly a certain number of scheduled services to Madrid and in return Iberia could run a certain number of scheduled services to London. It is that level of relationship we'll start at when Britain leaves the EU.

I agree with your first reply to me that this is unlikely to happen because at any cost we must obviously have a deal with the EU. If not the following Airlines, to name a few, would almost certainly be bankupt;

DHL UK
Flybe
Jet 2
Easyjet UK

Ryanair in the UK would stop operations

If somebody could tell me that there is some other Bilateral arrangement that I don't know about then I'd be pleased to hear it, because I want to be wrong. If I'm right then for this reason alone, a no deal Brexit is unacceptable.

Willie Walsh say's that anybody who believes the above is living on cloud cuckoo land, does he say that because he has to for the sake of the IAG share price? or does he say it because he knows there's going to be a deal?

zerograv

20th Apr 2018, 09:43

Originally Posted by Hussar 54
At the end of the day, I reckon aviation in general will not be hugely affected come BREXIT day, despite the EASA announcement EXCEPT crews and engineers who will have to decide whether to stay where they are now ; head for home from wherever they are now ; or up sticks and go to wherever

After nearly two decades of licences by the UK CAA ... believe it is time to look elsewhere ...

Next door Ireland IAA might be an option, but heard only good things about Swiss FOCA.

Any feedback available about the licensing work of this authorities ? Any authority that has a good level of English, and is relatively expeditious in their administrative work (something that is really not happening at the moment at the UK CAA) would do me fine ?

172driver

21st Apr 2018, 00:23

Willie Walsh say's that anybody who believes the above is living on cloud cuckoo land, does he say that because he has to for the sake of the IAG share price? or does he say it because he knows there's going to be a deal?

Well, he runs a Spanish airline, so may not be too nervous about the situation. Wiki for IAG: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Airlines_Group

I admit I don't know the intricacies of cross-border holdings in Europe, but I suspect they could get their situation sorted a lot easier than some others.

That said, I'm pretty sure (well, at least hopeful...), that there will be a deal.

kungfu panda

21st Apr 2018, 01:10

Prior to open skies in Europe, Airlines such as Monarch or Britannia were only able to run charter flights to agreed holiday destinations. They could not just say we're now going to operate a scheduled service from e.g. Gatwick to Malaga. The bilateral that would exist between the UK and Spain would be the agreement that BA can fly a certain number of scheduled services to Madrid and in return Iberia could run a certain number of scheduled services to London. It is that level of relationship we'll start at when Britain leaves the EU.

I agree with your first reply to me that this is unlikely to happen because at any cost we must obviously have a deal with the EU. If not the following Airlines, to name a few, would almost certainly be bankupt;

DHL UK
Flybe
Jet 2
Easyjet UK

Ryanair in the UK would stop operations

If somebody could tell me that there is some other Bilateral arrangement that I don't know about then I'd be pleased to hear it, because I want to be wrong. If I'm right then for this reason alone, a no deal Brexit is unacceptable.

Willie Walsh say's that anybody who believes the above is living on cloud cuckoo land, does he say that because he has to for the sake of the IAG share price? or does he say it because he knows there's going to be a deal?

It seems likely that keeping planes flying will become a bigger issue than the Irish border by the end of this year. Airlines operate on such fine margins and require such high rates of cash flow that just the suggestion of groundings may cause a hiccup in reservations and possible subsequent insolvencies.

highcirrus

21st Apr 2018, 03:25

zerograv

Could be you should check out the IAA Part-FCL (https://www.iaa.ie/personnel-licensing/pilot-licences-(eu-regulations)/part-fcl-licence-transfer-process) licence transfer programme. Looks like the way to go for a lot of UK CAA licence holders.

Irish border question could kill any possible Withdrawal Agreement and hence Transition Agreement, resulting in UK crashing out of the EU, midnight, 29 March 2019. I'd guess you'd want to be ahead of the herd, rather than trampled underfoot?

zerograv

21st Apr 2018, 09:04

Highcirrus

Thanks for the link. :ok: I will check that possibility.

bringbackthe80s

22nd Apr 2018, 08:53

As I understand, irrespective of everything, the UK pilot licence will still be an ICAO licence after brexit right?

VinRouge

22nd Apr 2018, 09:11

Yep, but i guess the CAA have some significant work in transitioning from an administrative back to a regulatory organisation.

Alos, a bit screwed flying for a European AOC if you dont hold an EASA licence. Dont see many FAA licence holders flying for European carriers do you? But an FAA ticket is an ICAO licence surely?

Estimated 1400 Brexit voters shuffling on a day at the moment. My prediction is we will be exited for 5 years max before the political landscape swings back and Gen X takes its pound of flesh through a reintegration referendum.

101917

26th Apr 2018, 17:41

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/brexit-notice-to-stakeholders-aviation-safety.pdf

I guess one option would be to remain in EASA without voting rights, having no say in the rules or any influence and therefore having to abide by them.
Which would be ridiculous for the country with the largest aviation industry in Europe.
And subject to the ECJ, which I suspect the likes of Boris, JRM and others might just have view on.
Is that what you Brexiteers voted for?
The disaster that is Brexit rolls on.

hunterboy

26th Apr 2018, 18:12

Whichever way people voted, I say the disaster is the way it is being negotiated.There doesn’t seem to be a single coherent strategy.

ExXB

26th Apr 2018, 18:26

It was 37.44% of the British Electorate that voted leave, not ‘the people’. But shall we stay on-topic? The Swiss participate in EASA without a vote. That doesn’t stop them from attending and ‘influencing’ the proposals which are voted on.

I’m not certain if a consensus is necessary or if it is just a majority that is necessary. That option is open, or you could take your football and go home.

BluSdUp

26th Apr 2018, 19:50

I think Airbus will get a nice discount on the wings when they start making alternate plans,,,, Dont You!
Also all the Lego AB gets from a lot of different countries, are certified by EASA or whatever EU rule , not CAA.
Any aircraft part is taxfree , so no, Airbus gets plenty of wings.

With regards to UK being EUs biggest export market and EU suffering after brexit I think we were told at age 10 in school how that works.
No International Master in Business needed for that one: Export and Import between a big country and a small, The big one set the rules!

UK used to be a Superpower in aviation ,I read Flight International since ca 1981 and have a fair grasp of Aviation.
As Base Captain in Glasgow for a small turboprop operator in 1999 I was in shock how incompetent some UK operators and the CAA was.
Now the UK is a sad shade of itself , especially in the Aviation sector.

EU has to fight hard for it future, quitters are never treated nice in any club. UK could have made a big difference in rewriting EUs " Future"! But always being a" Besserwisser" has backfired , Dear Old Chap!

At best this will slow down Europe, including UK the next say 10 years.
Worst case, UK stop existing!
Europe will do good, me thinks.
Good luck to all
Cpt B

FiveGirlKit

27th Apr 2018, 09:44

My prediction is we will be exited for 5 years max before the political landscape swings back and Gen X takes its pound of flesh through a reintegration referendum.

Hmm, I wonder if the EU27 would gladly welcome the prodigal son back in 5 years? I predict that once left, it will take a generation before the EU will consider the UK joining again

ExXB

27th Apr 2018, 11:13

Hmm, I wonder if the EU27 would gladly welcome the prodigal son back in 5 years? I predict that once left, it will take a generation before the EU will consider the UK joining again

Without a doubt. Of course there would be mumbling and moaning in various languages but they all would agree because the union would be better with the U.K. As would EASA.

wiggy

27th Apr 2018, 12:09

I wonder if the EU27 would gladly welcome the prodigal son back in 5 years?

Not sure about 5 years but if it happened at all it would be without the various opt outs the UK currently enjoys....

Three Lions

27th Apr 2018, 13:26

As a rarity in the UK at present someone who can see some positives and negatives in both sides of the BREXIT debate. I completely agree with the poster about the issue of licences etc as a bit of a storm in a tea cup. Licences will continue to be issued and will be valid. Some agreement will be made. Both sides have too much to lose otherwise. Once we put our one sided sabre rattling down its a very easy concept to understand. We all know that.

The polarisation on this thread alone, on just one forum is a replication of the polarisation in society in the UK at present. BREXIT will go down in history as the milestone in the inability of British people to see both sides of an arguement. It's here it's now it's present.

The indicator of the is the issue of a very blunt yes or no vote on a massively complex issue. And the reluctance in some quarters to logically and sensibly take a casting vote on the whole issue once we as sensible and logical people and "sabre rattling" "willy waving" and "whatabouterism" on both sides has desisted and genuine decent calm human beings are given time to read and fully understand what the relationship between us and the European will look like going forward. As human beings this is exactly the behaviour that most, other than those unable of critical thinking would do in every single aspect of our lives. Impossible if you are too busy trying to rattle your sabre higher and more vigorously than someone with an alternate view, l know. But the fact remains it's our normal modus operandi in general life.

Polarised thought. Not our greatest talent.

Anticipating incoming sabres from from both sides. The rare and sadly very small group of balanced observers are sat watching proceedings in berwilderment. It's like witnessing two tribes tearing each other apart. We are, as a nation, hardly covering ourselves in glory. I do not hold much hope for much agreement if the rest of the thread is anything to go by. If so, then just put my thoughts in the "another view" column and carry on the mortal combat.

Capt Pit Bull

28th Apr 2018, 13:31

Quite easily and happily.

And with higher standards and a far more sensible licensing system.

EASA has brought nothing but **** to this industry.

highcirrus

29th Apr 2018, 08:56

For those readers who would like to get an accurate picture of current Brexit state of play in relation to the UK Aerospace Industry, I'd recommend a browse through Dr Richard North's latest piece at his blog EUReferendum.com (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86849#disqus_thread) . Dr North references the European Commission Notice to Stakeholders (https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/brexit-notice-to-stakeholders-aviation-safety.pdf), dated 13 April 2018.

This (Notice to Stakeholders) sets out in four pages just how totally dependent our aviation industry is for everything it does on authorisations granted by EASA, applying to every tiniest detail of how we make aircraft, to the running of our airports, to air traffic control, to the airworthiness of aircraft, to the certification and licensing of pilots, cabin crews, engineers, medical staff and trainers; in short, to every last item of what allows our aviation sector to function.

But as the document repeatedly makes clear, the moment the UK leaves the EU to become what it classifies as "a third country", every one of these authorisations and approvals will lapse. Unless each of them is replicated in time, our factories will close, our aircraft will be grounded, our airports and our entire £31?billion-a-year aerospace industry will shut down overnight.

Dr North further writes.

The only clue Mrs May has given as to how she thinks this chaos can be avoided, as she said at the Mansion House, is that we should be allowed to remain in EASA. This was echoed by our own Civil Aviation Authority, which knows it would take years for us to create our own system. But the commission immediately pointed out that we cannot remain in EASA because, as the rules make clear, this is open only to EU members.

And we cannot even apply for the right for our airlines to fly to the EU and other countries until the moment we become a "third country", by a process that could then take months or even years to negotiate. Some of the biggest industry players have been waking up to the threat all this poses. Airbus and Ryanair, for instance, have both spoken of the possibility that their UK operations could "grind to a halt".

In fact, easyJet has already relocated its base to Austria; and Rolls-Royce, the world's second-largest aero-engine manufacturer, we learned last week, is making preparations to move part of its operations to Germany.

Those readers of nervous disposition or terminally closed mind perhaps should not read Dr North's blog!

highcirrus

29th Apr 2018, 11:43

Sobering reality, courtesy of Business Insider Deutschland (https://www.businessinsider.de/open-skies-us-trade-deal-brexit-trump-2018-3?r=UK&IR=T) of 10 March 2018 in respect of Open Skies/Air Service Agreements.

However, two events this week show that it (Trade Deals) will not be anywhere near as easy as Brexiteers had promised. The first was Trump's decision to impose new tariffs on trade with Europe (http://uk.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-donald-trump-trade-war-europe-tariffs-2018-3). The second is an alarming new row over Britain's rights to fly across the Atlantic.

The row centres around attempts to keep planes flying across the Atlantic after Brexit. As things stand, Britain is set to leave the EU-US 'Open skies treaty' when it leaves the EU. In order to ensure planes can still fly, Britain will need to negotiate a replacement agreement with the US.

However, according to an explosive FT report this week (https://www.ft.com/content/9461157c-1f97-11e8-9efc-0cd3483b8b80), the US offered Britain in January a far worse "open skies" deal after Brexit than it currently has as an EU member. According to their report, accepting such a deal could seriously damage the flying rights of major UK airlines and — in the event of failure — see flights grounded between the two countries.

Further.

The row over Open Skies is just one example of the huge and complex difficulties that Britain faces in renegotiating its relationship with the world after Brexit.

The scale of the task is difficult to comprehend. The UK reportedly needs (https://www.ft.com/content/f1435a8e-372b-11e7-bce4-9023f8c0fd2e) to renegotiate at least 759 other treaties with 168 countries before it leaves the EU on everything from transport, to fish, to farming. And while some of these negotiations will be relatively straightforward and end up in Britain's favour, many others will not.

With just over a year to go until Britain leaves, some who campaigned for Brexit have still failed to face the scale of the task ahead. In the past week, that reality has finally started to become clear.

BizJetJock

30th Apr 2018, 08:58

But the commission immediately pointed out that we cannot remain in EASA because, as the rules make clear, this is open only to EU members.
Last time I checked (this morning) EASA had 32 Member States and the EU only 28. So this statement is plainly nonsense. Whether it is the commmission source or Dr North or both who don't know what they are talking about I leave open.

Nemrytter

30th Apr 2018, 10:01

From memory:
EASA is only open to countries that accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The UK has previously said it doesn't want to accept the ECJ and thus, unless the UK position has changed (again), the UK cannot be a member of EASA. That's what the EC said and that's what the rules say.

highcirrus

30th Apr 2018, 10:21

BizJetJock EASA comprises the following (https://www.easa.europa.eu/easa-and-you/international-cooperation/easa-by-country/map): the 28 EU member States all of which have full voting rights. The 3 European Economic Area (EEA) member States(Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) plus Switzerland. The latter 4 States have reduced voting rights but in all other respects are regular EASA members.

Despite your assertion, both the Commission and Dr North have consistently demonstrated that they "know what they are talking about". In this particular case, the point being made is that on "Hard Brexit" with no agreement, UK becomes a "Third Country" (an EU legal term) and thus, by default, a non-EASA member as membership is only open to EU and EEA member States plus Switzerland which has a special deal and which, according to the Commission, will never be repeated.

The solution to the problem is either stay in the EU or leave EU but retain EEA/Single Market membership (we are current EEA members under the EU banner) by rejoining EFTA (European Free Trade Association - UK was a founder member but we left to join the EEC) and thus join Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein and Switzerland under the EFTA banner (Switzerland is EFTA but not EEA - confused yet?).

Incidentally, going the EFTA/EEA route following Brexit will not only take us out of EU but keep us in the EEA/Single Market and also solve the Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland border conundrum. As they say, "what's not to like?".

ExXB

30th Apr 2018, 10:33

“In addition to the member states (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_European_Union) of the union, the countries part of the European Free Trade Association (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Free_Trade_Association) (EFTA), i.e. Liechtenstein (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liechtenstein), Norway (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway), Switzerland (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland) and Iceland (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iceland), have been granted participation under Article 66 of the Basic Regulation and are members of the Management Board without voting rights. There are also numerous working relationships with other authorities.”

I doubt any country, other than Member States, could participate with voting rights. (Re)joining EFTA would also pose problems for the U.K., but they likely would be welcome to.

Of course the Basic Regulation could be amended to allow this, but that would likely be another drawn out process.

VinRouge

30th Apr 2018, 10:37

Arch brexiteers should realise that a hard exit, including leaving the single market, which was categorically stated as "not on the table" during the referendum campaign, will result in future generations voting for re-integration, as soon as the demographic changes.

Long term, brexit to remain within the EEA has to be the solution which will keep both sides of the fence compromised but content.

BizJetJock

30th Apr 2018, 11:05

highcirrus:
So you agree with me - EASA membership is not "open only to EU members". Thus in this case, one or other of the two have got their facts wrong and do not know what they are talking about. Whether we can negotiate a suitable basis for membership in the time available is a different issue, but since both the UK and EU negotiators have said that this is their desired outcome, it is not unreasonable to think that a mechanism will be found. So this paper from a functionary at EASA is at best bureaucratic arse covering and at worst political **** stirring.

Nemrytter:
The government have already stated that, for the purposes of membership of EASA and various other bodies, the UK can accept the ECJ on the basis of the fact that they are not the final arbiter. Not being a member of the EU gives the UK the ultimate option of withdrawing from the body if there is a dispute that is unresolvable. I don't see this as a major issue; how many EASA questions have gone to the ECJ? I suspect zero.

On another point, all the Chicken Little running around shouting "the sky is falling", saying that the CAA couldn't run a system independent from EASA obviously comes from people who are not aware that the CAA in fact runs two other systems in parallel to EASA already. There is the National Licencing and airworthiness system for non-EASA aircraft in the UK, and the Overseas Territories system that covers licencing and airworthiness for all types of aircraft that are registered in Bermuda, Cayman Islands and other places. This is a significant operation that, among other things, includes a large portion of Aeroflot's fleet! I do not downplay the administrative effort that would be involved in changing, but the structures are all already in place.

Therefore the whole EASA question is a small point in the whole scheme of current affairs. The route licencing/open skies on the other hand is a major problem that we can only hope the powers that be are addressing urgently. I am not confident...

highcirrus

30th Apr 2018, 11:52

BizJetJock

But the commission immediately pointed out that we cannot remain in EASA because, as the rules make clear, this is open only to EU members.

I think that you might be stretching the point somewhat by writing that I agree with you. The nub of the matter is that the Commission was entirely factual stating and Dr North entirely correct in reporting that UK cannot remain in EASA on leaving the EU. It is not for the Commission to suggest remedies to the British Government and, indeed, is politically dangerous to do so. Any attempt by the Commission to point out that the simple expedient of UK remaining in EEA/Single Market as an EFTA member rather than an EU member, post Brexit, would be seized upon by all and sundry as "interfering in UK politics" (and quite rightly so). Hence the merely bald statement of fact.

Finally, I'm not sure what you mean by: So this paper from a functionary at EASA is at best bureaucratic arse covering and at worst political **** stirring.

Can you expand?

BizJetJock

30th Apr 2018, 12:13

The point is that there are several countries that are not EU members that are in EASA. Whether the UK wishes or would be allowed to use the mechanism they employ does not alter the fact that the statement "is open only to EU members" is false.
Both sides in the negotiations have stated that their preferred outcome is for the UK to remain in EASA and several other bodies, and negotiations on this are ongoing. Yet this paper dismisses that in a footnote and concentrates entirely on the "no deal" option. So the conclusion I draw is that publishing this now is either showing the world that EASA have considered all eventualities - "bureaucratic arse covering" - or deliberately trying to give the impression that no deal is possible - "political **** stirring". It would appear from this thread that if that was the intention it has been successful.

Jetscream 32

30th Apr 2018, 13:00

Speech by Michel Barnier at the Eurofi High-level Seminar 2018

Sofia, 26 April 2018

“”So, Brexit will come at a cost.

And this cost will be substantially higher for the UK than for the EU. Let me make 4 points:

Trade dependency is far higher on the UK side. The EU27 accounts for around 50% of UK export and imports. The UK market represents around 7% of EU exports and 4% of imports. Some EU regions are of course more exposed to the UK than others. We will be very attentive regarding this impact.
The UK attracts Foreign Direct Investment to serve broader EU markets. With unavoidable friction and non-tariff barriers, some companies will need to rethink their business models.
EU talent may find the UK to be a less attractive place. This could generate skills shortages, for instance in the health sector.
Finally, the UK is currently covered by 750 international agreements as an EU Member State. After Brexit, the UK will have to negotiate its own agreements – not only in trade – but also, for instance, in aviation. The UK will need a new administrative capacity.””

Heathrow Harry

30th Apr 2018, 13:38

I suspect the EU are only now realising what a great target Aviation is - people fade away when you mention the ECJ, or effects on the City but stop people flying to the USA or Spain, or drive the cost through the ceiling and Joe Public will notice FAST - and will start looking for scapegoats. D Davis might need a witness protection programme....................

Emm4

30th Apr 2018, 17:20

On 25th April, Chris Grayling The Secretary of State for Transport said

Quote: During the time-limited implementation period, the UK will no longer be an EU Member State. However, as set out in the terms of the agreement, common rules will remain in place. The EASA basic regulation will therefore continue to apply, so all UK-issued certificates, approvals and licences will be automatically recognised as valid in the EASA system (and vice versa).

As the Prime Minister made clear in her speech last month, beyond the implementation period we will want to explore with the EU the terms on which we could remain part of the relevant agencies, such as EASA. This will form part of the negotiations with the EU and Member States on how best to continue cooperation in the field of aviation safety and standards post-exit. Endquote

There is also a very informative and balanced paper that examines the options- available from the Royal Aeronautical Society
RAeS Civil Aviation Regulation- What Future after Brexit? published September 2017.

highcirrus

30th Apr 2018, 19:02

BizJetJock

You write:
Yet this paper dismisses that in a footnote and concentrates entirely on the "no deal"

I'm genuinely confused - please confirm which "paper" , which footnote and please provide a link.

BizJetJock

1st May 2018, 08:28

Umm, the paper that this thread is about????

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/brexit-notice-to-stakeholders-aviation-safety.pdf

Footnote 1, Page 1

:ugh:

highcirrus

1st May 2018, 08:58

BizJetJock

Ah. The Notice to Stakeholders. Thank you. The clue to my confusion could be that the text under discussion is called a "notice" and not a "paper".

However, I'm still confused as to what you actually mean. The Notice is a factual statement of what will happen if/when UK leaves the EU and becomes a "Third Country".

The Footnote 1, on Page 1 to which you refer clearly states: "Negotiations are ongoing with the United Kingdom with a view to reaching a withdrawal agreement".

How can any of this be construed as "political **** stirring"?

BizJetJock

1st May 2018, 10:09

All such publications are called papers. Even the EASA website describes them that way.
The fact that they have put "notice" in the title is part of the reason I think it is stirring, since that gives the impression of some kind of official declaration of what will happen, rather than one possible outcome. That and the fact that the possibility of an agreement doesn't merit being in the main body of the text.
As I said, it has obviously worked.

W Smith

1st May 2018, 17:39

The CAA has issued a response to the EASA letter on the CAA website under Hot Topics.

It says:

QuoteBrexitThe following is in response to the European Commission’s publication ‘Withdrawal of the United Kingdom and EU aviation safety rules’ (13 April 2018):The Government, the UK Civil Aviation Authority and the entire aviation industry have been clear that our collective preference is to remain a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) once the UK withdraws from the European Union (EU). The EU paper describes what the situation will be if this is both not achieved and no other agreements are in place, including an implementation period. While this a matter for government, we believe this to be a highly unlikely scenario. However, we continue to make the necessary contingency plans.Unquote.

There is also a statement by the CAA's Chief Executive Andrew Haines:

Quote:
In response to the FT's article on 19 March ('MPs warn of Brexit damage to UK aerospace'), Andrew Haines said:“Both the Government and the CAA have been clear that our collective preference is to remain a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) once the UK formerly withdraws from the European Union. The international nature of aviation regulation has improved safety outcomes for passengers, and it is important we retain as much influence as possible in this global system.In a speech I gave in September 2017, I was clear that I believe the UK should not be planning for a new independent aviation safety system. If continued membership of EASA is unachievable, we should adopt the existing EASA regulatory system, rather than developing a new framework from scratch. This option is available to any third-party country, and is one that, I believe, would provide clarity and certainty for the aviation industry.” Unquote.

Enough said!

Jetscream 32

2nd May 2018, 10:42

Well yes and no! what neither Andrew or any minister is fully conversant with what currently is the view from the other side of the table... and that view will be different to the outcome we are expecting that's for sure ... - it will not be an "ops normal" approach irrespective of the 3rd country capability, as the devil will be in the detail.. We all know the UK does not want to go from the top table to the tradesman door in priority but there does seem a huge amount of ignorance to the fallout that a less than palatable outcome is going to produce!

John R81

2nd May 2018, 12:26

"Both the Government and the CAA have been clear that our collective preference ....."

Is to remain within EASA; but our RED LINE is that we cannot be subject to the ECJ

OK, thanks for sharing your "preferences". Now, given that the other side has been consistent in its resolution that they won't agree UK taking the "good bits" without the "bad bits" (free movement, ECJ, etc), do we leave with "no deal" and the consequences outlined by the EU and various others, or do we tell British Voters that we must remain subject to the rule of the ECJ ?

Answers on a postcard to:
Theresa May
10 Downing Street
London

In the meantime, large businesses are planning for a hard Brexit (which is actually my day job) because progress is so slow and so fragmented that to do otherwise would be like driving towards a red traffic light without braking, but chanting "just wait, it will be OK, it will go green before I get there".

ATC Watcher

2nd May 2018, 12:31

Andrew Haines said : it is important we retain as much influence as possible in this global system .[..] If continued membership of EASA is unachievable, we should adopt the existing EASA regulatory system, rather than developing a new framework from scratch. This option is available to any third-party country, and is one that, I believe, would provide clarity and certainty for the aviation industry.” Unquote.
Well it is a bit incompatible I would say. as I see with the others third parties members of EASA, you do not have nay influence at all you just follow the rules without having a say in what the others decide..A sad situation for a Country like the UK with his history in both Aviation and Safety management. Let's hope reason will prevail at one stage or another.
That said, there are still quite a few people in the EU that believe there will be in the end another referendum that will reverse the first one .

22/04

2nd May 2018, 12:46

I think I have said before that I hope there won't be a red line on the ECJ- that we "will have due regard" for its views and that will be the work around- but anyone know where UK government is on that one.

BizJetJock

4th May 2018, 10:17

22/04
The governemnt have already said that there is no problem with the ECJ and EASA or other agencies, because as a non-EU state the UK will have the option of withdrawing at any time if they don't agree with an ECJ judgement. The likelihood of that being an issue is not something I am going to lose any sleep over, since as far as I know nothing has ever been referred to the ECJ since EASA was formed.

The Old Fat One

5th May 2018, 08:11

I have not read the whole thread, but could I point out that these "notices" have been issued in all sorts of areas and applications (my own specialty being Data Protection). It's nothing whatsoever to do with politics/poo-stirring etc) it's purely functionary; they are basic statements of objective fact (albeit, of a necessarily temporary nature) intended to inform interested parties of changing circumstances, without speculating on potential outcomes.

Naturally, the press and all other interested parties are going to capture these statements and twist them to their own agenda, it was ever thus.

If I may borrow from my own specialisation, the equivalent notice for Data Protection simply points out the UK will become (under GDPR) a "third country" on the day we leave. That's not a political statement, it's a GDPR policy fact. How that alters as brexit progresses is speculative...obviously. No doubt when something is actually set in stone, all these notices will be amended and re-issued.

It's not rocket science.

PS

I'm neither brexiteer nor bremainer, so please don't tar me with either of those brushes, thanks.

Heathrow Harry

7th May 2018, 07:43

One of the issues that affects everything (including the Galileo satellite) is that many EU bodies have their membership legally limited to EU countries ONLY - often this was set up to keep out the US/China/Russia etc

The problem is no-one ever thought anyone would ever leave so there is no mechanism to allow ex-members to stay in. Of course they could change the rules but why would they - it would take years,cost s fortune in time and money and they'd have to get unanimous approval in most cases = even more internal argument and horse trading.

Far easier just say "Au-revoir" to the Brits and let them incur all the hassle and the costs - after all we brought it on ourselves........................

SamYeager

7th May 2018, 20:04

One of the issues that affects everything (including the Galileo satellite) is that many EU bodies have their membership legally limited to EU countries ONLY - often this was set up to keep out the US/China/Russia etc

From Europa.eu (https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/agencies/easa_en):

Members: 28 EU countries + Iceland, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Norway

As always in things EU the rules/conditions can be bent/modified whenever the EU wants to.

Elephant and Castle

8th May 2018, 05:56

kungfu panda

8th May 2018, 06:37

That is right. That is the way most clubs are run: for the benefit of members. You want the benefits? be a member. Don't want to be a member? loose the benefits. Not hard to understand. Is pathetic to leave a club and keep accusing the club of spite because they no longer give you the benefits of membership

I agree and if I was a "cake and eat it" theorist then I'd be a brexiter too.

Brexit is a lovely idea but a practical catastrophe.

Heathrow Harry

8th May 2018, 06:41

Yeah - "we don't like you, we hate the way you run things, we want to stand on our own and take our own decisions... but can you just let us back in this case.... please, please..."

kungfu panda

8th May 2018, 07:06

I think that people don't understand what negotiation is. It's about each side trying to blackmail each other based on the strength of their positions. At the end of the negotiations the party with the weaker position is blackmailed.

Complaining that you're blackmailed just suggests that you had the weaker position.

ExXB

8th May 2018, 07:57

Members: 28 EU countries + Iceland, Liechtenstein, Switzerland, Norway

The later four are non-voting members.

Of course the U.K. is welcome to re-join EFTA, it is an original founding member. That would get it a non-voting seat at the table.

highcirrus

19th May 2018, 00:40

DUBLIN (Reuters (https://in.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-airlines/clock-ticking-on-post-brexit-flights-eu-official-idINKCN1IJ11D)) - There is still a possibility that flights will not be able to take place the day after Britain’s planned departure from the European Union next year, an EU official said on Friday.

Henrik Hololei, director general for Mobility and Transport at the European Commission, said the clock was ticking and that the effects on aviation could be significant after the March 29, 2019, exit day.

“The possibility still exists that on day one no flights operate. It hasn’t disappeared,” Hololei said at a CAPA Centre for Aviation conference in Dublin.

“One thing is clear, is that this is a very sad chapter currently being written,” he said.

He added that before any negotiations could be done specifically on aviation, or any other sector, the overall framework of Britain’s departure had to first be agreed.

paperHanger

19th May 2018, 01:26

Is to remain within EASA; but our RED LINE is that we cannot be subject to the ECJ
.

And? Switzrland, Norway, Iceland et al are Full Members of EASA and do not accept the ECJ as final arbiter ...

paperHanger

19th May 2018, 01:28

It's worth also remembering that it rubs both ways ... if they want to be a PITA over EASA and do the "none of your licences are valid" thing .. we could do the same ...

autoflight

19th May 2018, 03:02

China is short of aircraft and crews. There will always be such places that a whole airline can fill with ACMI dry charters for several years until the dust settles.

Denti

19th May 2018, 03:37

It's worth also remembering that it rubs both ways ... if they want to be a PITA over EASA and do the "none of your licences are valid" thing .. we could do the same ...
That, however, is not what the EASA note says. They do not say anything at all about UK licenses, they just say that EASA licenses issued by the UK, (hence not UK licenses) will be invalid as the UK will not be a part of EASA anymore if there is no agreement. Even the EU is aware that they have no say over UK laws and rules after the UK is out, until then, of course, they have for all areas where the UK didn‘t opt out. I don‘t see that note as a threat, rather a statement of facts according to current rules of the EU, which are, after all, largely written by UK experts.

While switzerland does not fall officially under ECJ rulings, they still had to accept them so far, for example in the final ECJ ruling over approach routes into ZRH, after switzerland dismissed the EU commission ruling over those.

Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland are not full EU members, however they are part of the EEA which still contains the four basic freedoms and are subject to the EFTA court which corresponds to the ECJ in most areas except for those exclusive to the three EFTA states.

While China may be in demand for mainly captains (not so much aircraft, they get and park them until the have sufficient captains), they are apparently not really keen on wet leases and anyone operating there has to follow their rules, including CAAC checks and chinese medicals.

highcirrus

19th May 2018, 05:41

Denti

Good post.

On the subject of Norway, Liechtenstein and Iceland are not full EU members, however they are part of the EEA which still contains the four basic freedoms (goods, capital, services, and labour)

Three of the four EFTA/EEA states (Norway, Liechtenstein Iceland) have the unilateral right (ie. EU has no say in this) to invoke EEA Agreement Article 112 despite being a party to this Agreement and which Article exempts from the requirement to permit unrestricted free movement of people (labour) within the EEA area, despite this apparently being a non-negotiable requirement of the Agreement. Fourth state, Switzerland, while a member of EFTA, is neither in the EU or in the EEA.

If our politicians ever got round to considering the EFTA/EEA route, post Brexit, UK would similarly enjoy the provisions of Article 112 (ie. could restrict free movement of labour in the national interest) and would, vitally, retain Single Market membership under the EEA umbrella, rather than the EU one. Also, as an EFTA/EEA member, UK would be able to retain the equally vital EASA membership. What's not to like?

Reference here (http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/BrexitMonograph010.pdf).

Kitiara

19th May 2018, 08:27

Denti

Good post.

On the subject of

Three of the four EFTA/EEA states (Norway, Liechtenstein Iceland) have the unilateral right (ie. EU has no say in this) to invoke EEA Agreement Article 112 despite being a party to this Agreement and which Article exempts from the requirement to permit unrestricted free movement of people (labour) within the EEA area, despite this apparently being a non-negotiable requirement of the Agreement. Fourth state, Switzerland, while a member of EFTA, is neither in the EU or in the EEA.

If our politicians ever got round to considering the EFTA/EEA route, post Brexit, UK would similarly enjoy the provisions of Article 112 (ie. could restrict free movement of labour in the national interest) and would, vitally, retain Single Market membership under the EEA umbrella, rather than the EU one. Also, as an EFTA/EEA member, UK would be able to retain the equally vital EASA membership. What's not to like?

Reference here (http://www.eureferendum.com/documents/BrexitMonograph010.pdf).

CHAPTER 4 SAFEGUARD MEASURES

Article 112

1. If serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectorial or regional nature liable to persist are arising, a Contracting Party may unilaterally take appropriate measures under the conditions and procedures laid down in Article 113.

2. Such safeguard measures shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration to what is strictly necessary in order to remedy the situation. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Agreement.

3. The safeguard measures shall apply with regard to all Contracting Parties.

Article 113

1. A Contracting Party which is considering taking safeguard measures under Article 112 shall, without delay, notify the other Contracting Parties through the EEA Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.

2. The Contracting Parties shall immediately enter into consultations in the EEA Joint Committee with a view to finding a commonly acceptable solution.

3. The Contracting Party concerned may not take safeguard measures until one month has elapsed after the date of notification under paragraph 1, unless the consultation procedure under paragraph 2 has been concluded before the expiration of the stated time limit. When exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action exclude prior examination, the Contracting Party concerned may apply forthwith the protective measures strictly necessary to remedy the situation.

For the Community, the safeguard measures shall be taken by the EC Commission.

4. The Contracting Party concerned shall, without delay, notify the measures taken to the EEA Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.

5. The safeguard measures taken shall be the subject of consultations in the EEA Joint Committee every three months from the date of their adoption with a view to their abolition before the date of expiry envisaged, or to the limitation of their scope of application.

Each Contracting Party may at any time request the EEA Joint Committee to review such measures.

Here are articles 112 and 113 of the treaty. Please pay particular attention to the areas I've highlighted in bold. The provision is not a the silver bullet implied by the blog you cited. It is rather a way for members that are experiencing genuine hardship to obtain relief on a temporary basis. It has to be done in consultation with the EEA Joint Committee and the measures implemented need to be removed in the most expeditious timeframe possible.

My personal opinion is that the UK would not be able to make the case for experiencing hardship as a consequence of free movement of people that would be required to invoke article 112.

CargoOne

19th May 2018, 08:30

If our politicians ever got round to considering the EFTA/EEA route, post Brexit, UK would similarly enjoy the provisions of Article 112 (ie. could restrict free movement of labour in the national interest) and would, vitally, retain Single Market membership under the EEA umbrella

Don't get illusion that EEA countries can apply provisions of Article 112 without any consequences. Yes they can call it out but that's will be their last call unless they have a very good reason of a short term nature. Brussel is not that stupid to let UK enjoy single market without allowing free labour movement.

highcirrus

19th May 2018, 08:49

CargoOne

Brussel is not that stupid to let UK enjoy single market without allowing free labour movement.

EFTA states have the right to invoke the Article unilaterally. Nothing to do with the EU. Please read the link provided.

Kitiara

Excellent that you've posted Articles 112 and 113. We can see the facts. Could you maybe post the basis for your opinion expressed as:

UK would not be able to make the case for experiencing hardship as a consequence of free movement of people that would be required to invoke article 112

I'm sure you know that Liechtenstein has successfully invoked Article 112 for some years now.

Kitiara

19th May 2018, 09:07

Kitiara

Could you maybe post the basis for your opinion

I specifically differentiated between the articles and interpretation I posted and the opinion I posted since the opinion was simply that - my personal opinion. It is not based on any specific research, but rather is informed by my life experiences and what I have taken on board over the years as I have read news stories, talked with people and generally lived and worked in the UK. Basically, I don't see the basis for a case that the UK has suffered as a consequence of free movement. Certainly where I live, local farmers have benefitted significantly from EU migrant labour as has both local hospital. My GP is a Chinese immigrant and presently the only GP at the practice due to lack of applicants to fill vacancies. One of my neighbours is a German citizen who has lived in the village for 25 years, operates a business and employs 18 people.

I'm certain there are many that have different experiences to me, and thus hold different opinions, but my opinion is as it is.

highcirrus

19th May 2018, 09:42

Kitiara

Thanks for your considered reply and I think that we certainly have points of agreement. Your observation of agricultural EU migrant labour is most pertinent (http://www.wired.co.uk/article/brexit-impact-uk-farming-farms-robots-economy) and my understanding is that seasonal workers are now staying away from UK due weak Sterling, a perceived "hostile environment" and higher wages in other EU countries. Perhaps free movement of labour is not only a "red line" but also a "red herring" and we are in danger of shooting ourselves in the foot (that's enough metaphors!)?

The point I'm attempting to allude to is that this particular "red line" is a chimera that can be politically finessed by EFTA/EEA membership, whether Article 112 is invoked or not.

Brat

19th May 2018, 10:17

Why are you surprised?

If you leave any club, you lose club 'benefits' and/or privileges

Chaos is quite likely in the short term.

But in most cases are not required to keep on paying club fees!

Brat

19th May 2018, 10:18

Yeah - "we don't like you, we hate the way you run things, we want to stand on our own and take our own decisions... but can you just let us back in this case.... please, please..."
Err well, perhaps not everyone is as keen to stay as you Harry.

Denti

19th May 2018, 10:19

In the case of Liechtenstein every single one of the parties has an interest that the, yes, technically time restricted, status quo continues. Liechtenstein for its own reasons, the rest to reduce the exodus of too many wealthy families (there is absolutely no restriction on family reunification in Liechtenstein, one person moving into Liechtenstein then can get his whole family into there) into a low tax environment.

That interest wouldn't be there in the case of the UK. And yes, while they can invoke the Article 112 unilaterally, it has to be done in a restricted manner in terms of time of application and scope of application or the corresponding parties can of course similarly Article 112 against the UK.

highcirrus

12th Jun 2018, 21:37

Looks like people are just starting to wake up to what is about to happen (https://www.adsgroup.org.uk/reports/ads-and-gama-letter-to-michel-barnier-on-aviation-safety-talks/):

We are concerned that steps need to be taken urgently to make arrangements on aviation safety after the UK leaves the EU.

As such, we have written to European Chief Negotiator Michel Barnier – in a joint letter with the General Aviation Manufacturers Association (GAMA), an international trade association for the sector – to request that the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) begin technical and contingency planning discussions by June’s European Council, separately from political negotiations.

If aviation safety arrangements have not been fully prepared to avoid any uncertainty over the legal status of UK certified aircraft designs and parts, or aircraft maintenance approvals, pilot and technician licences, aircraft could be unable to fly.

Just to refresh, the original Brexit Notice to Stakeholders (https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites/transport/files/legislation/brexit-notice-to-stakeholders-aviation-safety.pdf) refers.

Heathrow Harry

13th Jun 2018, 06:32

But in most cases are not required to keep on paying club fees!

you are if you want to drop in for the occasional snifter tho' - that's the issue here - some people want out and then complain they lose the benefits they would like to keep.................

Heathrow Harry

13th Jun 2018, 17:09

Has the government mouthpiece, the Bee Bee Ceeb, reported this yet - may be I missed it, along with the report on the Met. Office computer having a nervous breakdown.

N
absolutely no interest from the great British public in arcana like this

they'll only notice if and when they can't fly to Majorca for 20 quid

BluSdUp

14th Jun 2018, 12:00

So as of march next year my UK medical is no use flying a EU company? Charming!

Denti

14th Jun 2018, 18:35

So as of march next year my UK medical is no use flying a EU company? Charming!
Only if there is no deal, any deal will likely include the extended transition period (in which the UK has full access to the EU market, but no say anymore in its rules), so your medical should be fine ;)

Heathrow Harry

14th Jun 2018, 18:37

Only if........................

BluSdUp

14th Jun 2018, 20:43

Denti,
Thanks, all this Exit-ment is no good for my blood-pressure!

Nahh, no bother , Grown ups in the Government will sort it out to everyone's delight. Us commoners with responsibility for 200 plus people on a day to day basis must not get to exited, I suppose.
Mind You , if John Clees and his old Flying Circus shows up for a ramp-check, I for one would not be surprised.

highcirrus

15th Jun 2018, 08:35

Regulator (http://www.mro-network.com/maintenance-repair-overhaul/faa-prepared-oversee-its-uk-mros-post-brexit-if-needed) plans for possibility of no new regulatory bilateral agreement being reached.

FAA, planning for a worst-case scenario, is prepared to take over surveillance of its 180 approved repair stations in the U.K. if a new regulatory bilateral agreement isn't in place when the country leaves the European Union (EU) next year.

The UK government has not announced how it will regulate its aviation industry following the so-called Brexit--its decision to leave the EU effective April 1, 2019. One certainty: the UK will no longer be under the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) as an EU member. The UK's options--and the most likely outcome--include adopting EASA's regulations as a non-EU member, similar to what several countries, including Norway and Switzerland, have done. Another option is to use the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) regulations as a foundation and go it alone.

highcirrus

15th Jun 2018, 11:44

This (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-aviation/eu-warns-british-airlines-on-post-brexit-flying-idUSKBN1E62CC) was reported by Reuters on 13 December 2017. The British Government remains silent on the matter to the present day. Is anyone else getting a little worried by the increasing likelihood of a no deal "Hard Brexit" producing this catastrophe, or am I the only one?

BRUSSELS (Reuters) - British airlines will lose all flying rights the European Union has negotiated with third countries as well as those negotiated by individual EU states after Britain quits the bloc, the EU executive said in a note.

In a notice to all airlines, a stark reminder of the risks facing the sector if there is no Brexit deal, the European Commission said UK air carriers would no longer enjoy traffic rights under any air transport agreement to which the EU is a party, such as the U.S.-EU Open Skies agreement.

They would also lose flying rights under agreements between individual EU member states and third countries as they would not longer be considered EU airlines.

In addition, all operating licenses granted by the British civil aviation authority will no longer be valid for the EU, the notice said, which means the airlines would be cut off from the intra-EU market.

SamYeager

15th Jun 2018, 18:38

Father Dick Byrne

15th Jun 2018, 18:48

It'll be alright on the night! ;)

No it fekin won’t.

This is going to be a catastrophe for the country, and aviation will likely feel the hits first and hardest.

...and no, this has nothing to do with ‘democracy’.

Heathrow Harry

16th Jun 2018, 07:03

For obvious reasons this forum is concentrating on the aviation issues

NONE of which are being reported in the press

I wonder how many other industries are facing the same situation and likewise we know nothing about it?

rudestuff

16th Jun 2018, 09:51

Bring on the catastrophe! It's amazing how much fear can be whipped up. We could still yet retain membership of EASA, but if we don't... Guess what? We still have exactly the same rights within Europe as anyany ot ICAO country. Our licences will still be ICAO licences (they just won't be EASA anymore) The concept of an EASA licence is a joke anyway - in theory you can use it on any EASA aircraft - in practice Ryanair will only accept an Irish licence!
The bottom line is that passengers are still going to want to fly, so the same number of aircraft and pilots will be needed to fly them. Maybe the Reg will change, maybe they won't. Anyway, there are bigger things than aviation. Brexit is supposed to be about bringing back democracy and boosting the economy.

ELondonPax

16th Jun 2018, 10:10

Rudestuff. Why don't you go and educate yourself about what the EU rules actually and then come back when you understand.

highcirrus

16th Jun 2018, 11:11

rudestuff

Perhaps I could suggest that you read EU Referendum (http://www.eureferendum.com/Default.aspx) and get an idea of the disaster that would befall the nation if your call to "bring on the catastrophe" was actually heeded. The quote below gives an idea of the complexities involved and the huge dangers to UK Aerospace/Air Transport that such a reckless and irresponsible approach will bring.

Unsurprisingly, Mrs May has expressed a preference for the status quo, with the UK retaining its membership of EASA. But that cannot happen. The EU's agencies are servants of the Union, established to service the Member States under the aegis of the European Commission. Concessions are made to Efta States, but even they with a form of associate membership of the EU, have no voting rights.

But what can be readily established is that, outside Efta and the EEA, our target must be a bilateral agreement with the EU. These are highly formal and comprehensive arrangements which not only set up the areas of cooperation but also establish joint bodies which enable the agreements to be monitored, interpreted and developed.

In the case of the United States, there is the "Bilateral Oversight Board" (no one seems to want to call it "Bob"); Canada has a less formal Joint Committee and Brazil has a Joint Committee of the Parties as well as Joint Sectorial Committees on Certification and Maintenance.

The big problem we have at the moment is the same problem we have in agreeing a post-Brexit trade agreement with the EU. The aviation safety "bilaterals" are full-blown treaties so we cannot even begin to negotiate with the EU until after 29 March 2019, when we formally become a third country. Equally, we cannot enter into the less formal "working arrangement" type of relationship with EASA until we are a third country.

This is where the ADS/GAMA letter (https://www.adsgroup.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2018/06/ADS-GAMA-letter-to-Michel-Barnier-EASA-CAA-Discussions.pdf) to which I referred yesterday gets really interesting. These aviation bodies have become aware of the effects of Brexit and, in particular, the peril of withdrawing without a transition period. Ideally, they argue, the difficulties could be addressed by talks directly between EASA and the CAA, concluding a "separate aviation deal agreed prior to March 2019".

However, the very solution that the industry seeks cannot be achieved which means that, if there is a "no deal" Brexit, catastrophic disruption to the aviation industry is inevitable. In legal terms, there is simply no way round this.

What this effectively means is that – as I stated yesterday – "no deal" is not a serious option. The effect on the aviation sector alone is enough to rule it out. Factor in all the other problems, in other sectors, and no responsible government could allow it – and nor could MPs, individually or collectively, permit it.

AN2 Driver

16th Jun 2018, 13:10

Well... whoever expected that a Brexit would not lead to economical war of secession with the EU must have been quite deluded. It is perfectly clear that the rump-EU will now do everything in their power to show to other possible separatists what will happen if you actually do. Britain will be economically isolated as much as the EU can manage lest they are willing to pay the tremendous separation charges which are part of the warfare Brussels is waging.

On the other hand, Britain's hands are not totally bound in this. The EU should not forget that they need the British airspace for their daily NATL business, so what if Britan would unilaterally bring on large overflight charges for EU carriers just for starters? Or deny overflight? There are many ways an independent nation can make things very awkward and expensive for unfriendly nations who still need to do some business. Britain has chosen this way and now it is the time to see it through, not to wonder how to migate side effects. Being outside EASA might actually be a profitable business at the expense of current save havens like the Isle of Man, Channel Islands or San Marino... and working in the direction of closer cooperation or adaption of ruling towards the FAA might make a lot of people happier than in the current state.

highcirrus

16th Jun 2018, 13:50

AN2 Driver

Not sure that the EU thinks it's entering an "economical war of secession". I think this at http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogsp0t.com/ (http://chrisgreybrexitblog.********.com/) is probably nearer the case:

................The EU look on bewildered. Far from there being any sense that the British government has a clear and viable negotiating strategy that – as kept being claimed in the debates - the Commons votes might derail, there is growing alarm in the EU-27 that no such strategy exists (https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/enda-kenny-appalled-by-british-government-handling-of-brexit-848121.html).

That same alarm is evident in the growing evidence of business slowdown (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-11/u-k-manufacturing-construction-data-cast-doubt-over-economy?utm_content=brexit&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&cmpid%3D=socialflow-facebook-brexit&utm_medium=social) in the face of a completely unknown future, and its gleeful counterpart in the pro-Brexit hedge funds betting on just that (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/investing/article-5824697/Brexiteer-Odey-bets-500m-AGAINST-British-businesses.html). It’s very likely that the average voter thinks that nothing much is happening except for irritating political rows: under the surface, the economic tectonic plates are shifting and really serious damage is now in prospect.

And the clock is ticking very loud now. A Withdrawal Agreement (which, of course, is a completely different thing to the Withdrawal Bill being discussed at the moment) is meant to be ready for ratification by the EUCO meeting on 18 October. Given that almost nothing will be done in August because Westminster and Brussels close down, that means that, by my calculation, there are now just 62 working days left.

If ever there were a time for political leadership, it is now. We already know that isn’t going to come from the Prime Minister or from the government (http://chrisgreybrexitblog.********.com/2018/05/forty-years-of-failed-political.html). What we learned this week is that it isn’t going to come from the House of Commons, either.

Maybe make time for a little more reading on the subject?

AN2 Driver

16th Jun 2018, 15:23

highcirrus,

well, the amounts of damage payments the EU has proposed the UK should pay if they leave pretty much has the smell of war reparation and in it's size alone is unacceptable. So what do you call it, if your opposite sets unmeetable conditions? To me, it pretty much looks like a hacked off wife asking $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ of the guy who finally figured out he is better off without her. But at state level, the way it is looks pretty much like economical warfare to me as the result would leave Britain in a very difficult financial mess if they accepted it, so it appears to me that the EU is pretty much trying to create a condition where there is an exit without agreement. Does it matter that both were not prepared? I don't think so. High statecraft can deal with the unexpected, those people obviously can't or are unwilling to.

testpanel

16th Jun 2018, 15:55

High statecraft can deal with the unexpected, those people obviously can't or are unwilling to.

keep reading....

https://www.bbc.com/news/topics/cwlw3xz0lvvt/brexit

BluSdUp

16th Jun 2018, 16:57

Just correct me if I am wrong , but Overflight right are old ICAO and Chicago stuff.
At no point can UK close airspace or overcharge any EU operator if a Hard Brexit is in place april 2019. Or if a Dumb Brexit is entered in April!
( A Dumb Brexit is a Hard Brexit with no plan or deal signed before 01:00 1 April 2019 Brussels Time! )

Anyone suggesting restrictions in UK airspace must be a moron. EU would use one nano second to retaliate and any Eastbound UK flight would face a new departure slot two to 5 years down the road. I can fly around the UK any time, but try avoiding European Airspace?. It goes from the North Pole to Africa!
Remember UK airspace is tiny and has no effect on 90% of European flights. So who cares!

I think it is only FAA that has taken this situation seriously, by sending over Inspectors. Interesting indeed.

Heathrow Harry

16th Jun 2018, 17:00

"are full-blown treaties " - which, with the USA, means you need Congressional approval........................

"Britain's hands are not totally bound in this. The EU should not forget that they need the British airspace for their daily NATL business," - hmm - they can fly round us - at some cost- try flying from the UK to anywhere but Americas without going through European airspace.........................

Denti

16th Jun 2018, 18:59

The EU should not forget that they need the British airspace for their daily NATL business, so what if Britan would unilaterally bring on large overflight charges for EU carriers just for starters? Or deny overflight? There are many ways an independent nation can make things very awkward and expensive for unfriendly nations who still need to do some business. Britain has chosen this way and now it is the time to see it through, not to wonder how to migate side effects. Being outside EASA might actually be a profitable business at the expense of current save havens like the Isle of Man, Channel Islands or San Marino... and working in the direction of closer cooperation or adaption of ruling towards the FAA might make a lot of people happier than in the current state.

As a signatory state to the Air Services Transit Agreement from 1944 (part of the Chicago Convention) the UK cannot close its airspace unilaterally. Russia on the other hand can, because they never signed it. Well, of course the UK could leave the ICAO next after the EU, and then the United Nations. But i don't really think that is likely.

What many do not really see is the fact that with every international agreement (whether trade or other stuff) you sign, you lose some part of control, usually in favor to some gains on the other side. Which puts the whole question of sovereignty in some very murky light indeed.

highcirrus

17th Jun 2018, 11:09

AN2 Driver

I made an accurate and reasoned rebuttal of your premise re: "the smell of war reparation". I'm not sure whether you were able to read it before it was consigned to the moderated memory hole.

Rgds

highcirrus

highcirrus

19th Jun 2018, 04:39

The UK press yesterday reported in lurid terms the supposed adverse response by the European Commission to the recent ADS/GAMA letter addressed to Michel Barnier. For those Ppruners interested in the actualité rather than press hype/ignorance, Dr. Richard North's blog at EU Referendum (http://www.eureferendum.com/Default.aspx) is the place to go:

Thus, we had from The Times the claim that "Brussels bars aviation chiefs from preparing for no-deal", based on an unconfirmed assertion that the European Commission had intervened after the aerospace industry had contacted Barnier, specifically to prevent EASA and the CAA from holding talks.

However, had the paper taken more note of what I had written in my second piece (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86903), they would perhaps have understood that – in the absence of a Withdrawal Agreement and the transition period - it is not possible for EASA to enter into talks with the CAA to secure the optimum outcome, a Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement (BASA).

This, I observed, is a full-blown treaty and can only be negotiated by the EU and the UK government. And, to do that, they need to use the formal procedure set out in Article 218 (https://europa.eu/european-union/sites/europaeu/files/eu_citizenship/consolidated-treaties_en.pdf) of the consolidated treaties. Such negotiations are way above the pay scale of the agencies and, as with the broader post-Brexit relationship, the negotiation process can only be undertaken once the UK has left the EU and formally acquired the status of a "third country".

Failing the settlement of a BASA, there is provision within the Basic Regulation (Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02008R0216-20160126&from=EN)) for inter-agency agreements between EASA and the "aeronautical authorities of third countries" (Article 27). But, once again, the qualifying requirement is for the UK to assume the status of a third country.

Either of the above solutions, of course, as Dr. North says, would only be possible following a negotiated Withdrawal Agreement after which UK would become a "third country" and enter a transition period to 31 December 2020. A "crash out" Hard Brexit with no Agreement and hence no transition period, would lead to Aerospace/Air Transport Armageddon. The full blog text is well worth a read for anyone interested in the immediate (perilous) future of our industry.

Steve6443

19th Jun 2018, 08:53

Either of the above solutions, of course, as Dr. North says, would only be possible following a negotiated Withdrawal Agreement after which UK would become a "third country" and enter a transition period to 31 December 2020. A "crash out" Hard Brexit with no Agreement and hence no transition period, would lead to Aerospace/Air Transport Armageddon. The full blog text is well worth a read for anyone interested in the immediate (perilous) future of our industry.

I think you're missing the most critical point from his blog which, in my eyes, is the following:

However, we are also aware that, without such agreements and in the absence of a transition period, UK parts fitted to EU-registered aircraft will no longer be validly certified, the aerospace industries and airline operations of the EU Member States will be as badly affected as UK enterprises.

This clearly shows that the impact to aviation would be immense, not just from Britain but across Europe as Airbus aircraft cannot be flown as UK manufactured parts become no longer certified. Therefore it's not just Great Britain which has an interest in ensuring a deal is met but also Europe. If the impact was just Aviation in Great Britain, I would anticipate the EU allowing us to stew but as the issue has the possibility of major disruption across Europe, you can guarantee a resolution will be found. Heck, imagine MEPS in Brussels actually having to use the Bus home, instead of an Airbus......

VinRouge

19th Jun 2018, 09:01

I think you're missing the most critical point from his blog which, in my eyes, is the following:

However, we are also aware that, without such agreements and in the absence of a transition period, UK parts fitted to EU-registered aircraft will no longer be validly certified, the aerospace industries and airline operations of the EU Member States will be as badly affected as UK enterprises.

This clearly shows that the impact to aviation would be immense, not just from Britain but across Europe as Airbus aircraft cannot be flown as UK manufactured parts become no longer certified. Therefore it's not just Great Britain which has an interest in ensuring a deal is met but also Europe. If the impact was just Aviation in Great Britain, I would anticipate the EU allowing us to stew but as the issue has the possibility of major disruption across Europe, you can guarantee a resolution will be found. Heck, imagine MEPS in Brussels actually having to use the Bus home, instead of an Airbus......
can be resolved by them with the flick of of a pen, generating a temporary fix for EU operators/part 145 organisations and AOCs. They are the regulator. Whilst the UK has no vote, no in and no ways of negotiating an arrangement for its licence holding organisations and people in the time remaining.

highcirrus

19th Jun 2018, 09:53

Steve6443

Yes, you are quite right, this is the critical point.

However, we are also aware that, without such agreements and in the absence of a transition period, UK parts fitted to EU-registered aircraft will no longer be validly certified, the aerospace industries and airline operations of the EU Member States will be as badly affected as UK enterprises.

It is now going to be very interesting to see whether the balance of negotiating power between EU and UK is tilted to a more even level or whether, as VinRouge writes:

(This) can be resolved by them with the flick of of a pen, generating a temporary fix for EU operators/part 145 organisations and AOCs. They are the regulator. Whilst the UK has no vote, no in and no ways of negotiating an arrangement for its licence holding organisations and people in the time remaining.

Watch this space, as they say.

DON T

19th Jun 2018, 13:58

Don’t think Spain and Greece will have much of a tourist trade in 2019 onwards��

VinRouge

19th Jun 2018, 16:18

Don’t think Spain and Greece will have much of a tourist trade in 2019 onwards��
1) like Germany, Dance or Belgium give 2 hoots about third world EU countries.
2) not heard of wizzair or Norwegian? There will be plenty of flying in the above scenario, just not with UK carriers. Most of the tourist industry have majority profit vs their airline groups, so will only knock trade slightly.
3) I doubt anyone will have the money to afford to go abroad on holiday once Brexit trashes the rest of UK industry.

Steve6443

20th Jun 2018, 07:05

1) 3) I doubt anyone will have the money to afford to go abroad on holiday once Brexit trashes the rest of UK industry.

Could it be you don't understand the rule of unintended consequences? If the UK economy is trashed, then it will also have a significant impact on the rest of Europe. The most obvious impact is the wave of EU citizens leaving UK, heading back to the mainland to find work, swamping an already depressed employment market causing a drain in those countries, both because of a lack of capital flowing in from those employees sending capital back to their families, plus a need to support those people.

Secondary is the crash of goods heading towards UK - let's not forget that 12% of all German produced cars head to UK - so the german economy will suffer because who will buy these cars? Albanians? Turks?

Finally, the aviation sector will suffer because, as you say, few will be able to afford to fly. So the shortage of pilots suddenly becomes a glut of pilots on the market; because of this, our terms and conditions will revert to how a certain Irish Gentleman wishes them to be - slave wages. Although personally I'm very relaxed about Brexit itself, I do see people in Brussels wanting to trash the UK economy in order to deter others from leaving, without realising that they will harm themselves more significantly.

Meikleour

20th Jun 2018, 12:52

It strikes me that the issue of the UK being unable to negotiate any air related legislation post Brexit while still being part of the EU is simply the lawyers putting their narrow viewpoint on things. Remember, policies are devised by the politicians but drafted by lawyers - so it is up to the politicians to advise the lawyers to arrange the appropriate changes required! If one simply took a narrow legal view of everything then no laws would ever be changed!

ELondonPax

20th Jun 2018, 12:52

Polax52. I think that - given we are still in the EU and bound by all the rules and obligations that go with that - the role has to be open to anyone who can demonstrate their right to work in any of EU28.
It seems astonishingly late to be creating this job, and how do they expect to get anyone with serious negotiating ability at that salary level?

am111

20th Jun 2018, 13:04

Independent article covering the negotiation job posting

Brexit Head Aviation Negotiator Job Only Just Advertised By Government (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/brexit-head-aviation-negotiator-job-advertised-government-european-union-open-skies-a8407761.html)

A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “dedicated teams with many years of experience and expertise” are already working on post-Brexit aviation.

“We are now are looking to supplement these existing teams with additional posts.

“Our EU exit plans are well developed and we are working closely with business and trade associations to provide the certainty they need to understand the challenges and opportunities they may face in the coming months and year.

Porky Speedpig

20th Jun 2018, 14:59

I hesitate to post this and wonder which Brexit thread it should be in but with a talent search like this the UK is buggered:

DfT is advertising for a Head of Aviation for EU Exit Negotiations (Pays £62K) and

They are also looking for Senior Policy advisors on international aviation to paying all of £40-45K.

For an even bigger laugh both jobs are open to EEA citizens.

Utterly extraordinary

Denti

20th Jun 2018, 18:50

Gertrude - Practically no one here wants Brexit, but we are where we are, and on both sides, we'd like the respective aviation authorities to be allowed to work towards some sort of resolution. For Brussels to step in to block this process out of pure spite, is petulant and beneath contempt (and in the end will bite them in the arse, for the reasons the Times article explained).

Thing is, EASA couldn‘t begin any talks, even if they wanted to, as EU rules, voted on by the UK, do not allow that. What many do not grasp, and what is truly different from the UK system, is the fact that the EU is a heavily rule based thing. Same as most central european countries as well to be honest. And EASA can talk with third countries on a business to business level, but the agreement that allows such talks has to be voted on by the european parliament (and most probably every local one) before that can happen. And since the UK is not a third country yet (it will be on march 30th 2019), there can be no such agreement unless there is a separation agreement and after that an agreement on future relations, which might include stuff like a common aviation market or limited open sky agreement. However, it will be very challenging indeed to get that even before the end of the transition period, especially so as the separation agreement talks are not going well.

highcirrus

21st Jun 2018, 09:02

Joe le Taxi

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the times article reporting that Brussels has banned easa from cooperating with the ukcaa on post Brexit arrangements.

Please see my post ♯198. I'm not sure the Commission is guilty of "out and out blackmail - the eu deliberately forcing a crisis situation". As I quoted Dr. Richard North's blog at EU Referendum (http://www.eureferendum.com/Default.aspx) :

Thus, we had from The Times the claim that "Brussels bars aviation chiefs from preparing for no-deal", based on an unconfirmed assertion that the European Commission had intervened after the aerospace industry had contacted Barnier, specifically to prevent EASA and the CAA from holding talks.

However, had the paper taken more note of what I had written in my second piece (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86903), they would perhaps have understood that – in the absence of a Withdrawal Agreement and the transition period - it is not possible for EASA to enter into talks with the CAA to secure the optimum outcome, a Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement (BASA).

This, I observed, is a full-blown treaty and can only be negotiated by the EU and the UK government. And, to do that, they need to use the formal procedure set out in Article 218 (https://europa.eu/european-union/sites/europaeu/files/eu_citizenship/consolidated-treaties_en.pdf) of the consolidated treaties. Such negotiations are way above the pay scale of the agencies and, as with the broader post-Brexit relationship, the negotiation process can only be undertaken once the UK has left the EU and formally acquired the status of a "third country".

Failing the settlement of a BASA, there is provision within the Basic Regulation (Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:02008R0216-20160126&from=EN)) for inter-agency agreements between EASA and the "aeronautical authorities of third countries" (Article 27). But, once again, the qualifying requirement is for the UK to assume the status of a third country.

Again, as I mentioned:

Either of the above solutions, of course, as Dr. North says, would only be possible following a negotiated Withdrawal Agreement after which UK would become a "third country" and enter a transition period to 31 December 2020. A "crash out" Hard Brexit with no Agreement and hence no transition period, would lead to Aerospace/Air Transport Armageddon.

Just a spotter

21st Jun 2018, 13:30

Prior knowledge of airspace and the aviation sector is an advantage but not necessary.

Knowing what you're actually doing just wouldn't be very Brexit, now would it?!

From the ouside looking in, the UK's approach to Brexit seems to be a mix of "Lance Corporal Jones" and "Private Walker", in the face of the reality being "Private Frazer"*

*look at the Royal Mail's Dad's Army Stamps

JAS

radiosutch

21st Jun 2018, 21:38

It would seem PPRUNE is stuffed with remoaners. We're leaving, get over it.

highcirrus

22nd Jun 2018, 00:18

radiosutch

Maybe the Airbus employees currently making wings at Broughton won't be sharing your casual insouciance tonight. Check out The Times (https://disq.us/url?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FDgPwpn-W4AItPY_.jpg%3Alarge%3AGMHb5r8O4lhKSfit4mcpyJqX94Q&cuid=2840114): Airbus is set to be the first big manufacturer to pull investment from Britain after losing patience with Theresa May's stalled Brexit negotiations ......

highcirrus

22nd Jun 2018, 00:35

A little more on The Times report of Airbus pulling out of UK, despite directly employing 14,000 personnel and supporting a further 110,000 jobs in the supply chain:

Even if Mrs May succeeds in managing an “orderly Brexit”, the manufacturer makes clear it will “refrain from extending its UK suppliers and partners base” until it sees how the new relationship with the EU will work.

The prime minister’s promised transition phase that ends in December 2020 does not allow enough time to prevent disruption likely to cost the firm billions of pounds in delays, lost orders and angry customers, Airbus says.

“The clock is ticking. If we decide now that we need one or two months of additional inventory because we are worried about these components getting stuck in the docks of Dover or Calais, then from a contingency point of view I have to do something,” Mr Williams said. “These are decisions we are in the process of making right now. We are in the process of instructing our suppliers to begin ramping up safety stocks of components.”

Looking to future production increases, he said: “The question for me is should I be doing that in the UK with all the uncertainty that I have? Or should we be starting to prepare alternative sources so I can protect the business in the long term? We have to look after our customers and shareholders.” Expanding operations in China was one alternative being prepared, he added.

The company says it laid out its concerns at a private meeting with Mrs May, also attended by Rolls-Royce and others, three weeks ago.

Greg Clark, the business secretary, is understood to have been pressing big companies to go public as he and Philip Hammond, the chancellor, fight moves led by Boris Johnson to push the government into a more aggressive stance in Brexit talks. Mr Clark cited Airbus in a speech yesterday as he underlined the importance of a Brexit that did not stop the movement of highly skilled workers.

A government spokeswoman said: “We have made significant progress towards agreeing a deep and special partnership with the EU to ensure trade remains as free and frictionless as possible, including in aerospace . . . We do not expect a no-deal scenario to arise.”

A harbinger of things to come in the airline sector of the UK economy?

superflanker

22nd Jun 2018, 17:58

My god. Just reach a f****** agreement. Or at least establish a long transition period so EU citizens that are somehow related to UK CAA can get a way out.

Gertrude the Wombat

22nd Jun 2018, 18:41

My god. Just reach a f****** agreement. Or at least establish a long transition period so EU citizens that are somehow related to UK CAA can get a way out.
The #brexiteers have decided not to do that.

Alber Ratman

22nd Jun 2018, 19:48

It would seem PPRUNE is stuffed with remoaners. We're leaving, get over it.

Because it is highly going to affect my job and other propects and I am rather concerned about that. If you know anything about the regulation side of aviation, you would be worried, however it seems that you do not (looking at your other posts on here, are you engaged in an aviation job at all?). Most on here are likely to be remainers because we knew the mess that would occur with a leave vote and nothing that has happened since has changed my mind.

superflanker

22nd Jun 2018, 20:55

What the hell happened to the transition deal?????

Gertrude the Wombat

22nd Jun 2018, 21:05

What the hell happened to the transition deal?????
Does rather depend on the Irish border being sorted, which can't happen because of the intransigence of the UK position. So there will be no transition deal. And we've known this all along.

superflanker

22nd Jun 2018, 21:37

Regardless of that, EASA should give a window to the people to change their licences, etc. Not doing that will harm people that are not even British.

highcirrus

22nd Jun 2018, 21:46

superflanker

Maybe start the licence change (https://www.iaa.ie/personnel-licensing/pilot-licences-(eu-regulations)/part-fcl-licence-transfer-process) process now?

superflanker

22nd Jun 2018, 22:05

superflanker

Maybe start the licence change (https://www.iaa.ie/personnel-licensing/pilot-licences-(eu-regulations)/part-fcl-licence-transfer-process) process now?
Yes, but I think EASA should provide some guidelines.
And in my specific case, I have not license yet, and I am finishing my ground school exams. There isn't any document that explains my options or even if that this exams will remain valid or not after the deadline (no specific mention to this in the pdf, as exams are not a license nor a certificate). And I am sure I am not the only one going through this specific case. And I am sure that there are a lot of different cases to solve. EASA should look after this things.

Gertrude the Wombat

22nd Jun 2018, 22:12

There isn't any document that explains my options or even if that this exams will remain valid or not after the deadline
That'll be 'cos nobody knows. But what we do know is that "brexit means brexit" so you just have to guess from there.

If I were in the process of acquiring a professional licence in the UK just right now I think I'd be looking to move to an EU27 country to finish the course and make sure I get my application in before May 29. Provided of course you can get an EU27 passport (many Brits can get an Irish passport just by asking nicely (well, and spending a few months shuffling loads of paper around and paying a few hundred quid), but sadly not all can).

superflanker

22nd Jun 2018, 22:33

If I were in the process of acquiring a professional licence in the UK just right now I think I'd be looking to move to an EU27 country to finish the course and make sure I get my application in before May 29. Provided of course you can get an EU27 passport (many Brits can get an Irish passport just by asking nicely (well, and spending a few months shuffling loads of paper around and paying a few hundred quid), but sadly not all can).

In my case, I'm not even British. In fact, I've never been to the uk. I have a medical and a ppl from Spain. I am just doing my distance learning on a British school because they are great and I am aiming to get an Spanish license. In my patparticular case, the exams under the UK CAA are the issue (despite I will finish them under 100% EASA regulation, but this seems not to worth anything) but the thing is there is thousands of people like me and with other problems that EASA is not adressing. They should release another pdf named WHAT THE HELL TO DO. There is less than a year ahead.

Gertrude the Wombat

22nd Jun 2018, 22:42

They should release another pdf named WHAT THE HELL TO DO.
Like I said, "they" can't do that, because "they" haven't a clue.

You could retake the exams in Spain?

highcirrus

22nd Jun 2018, 22:50

superflanker

22nd Jun 2018, 22:52

Like I said, "they" can't do that, because "they" haven't a clue.

You could retake the exams in Spain?
This is what I am trying to avoid... With a full time job and studyng it has been a tough year. And let's not talk about repaying all the exam fees.

superflanker

22nd Jun 2018, 23:06

superflanker

You might find the following links useful. The first (https://t.co/4y4O0Wwppk?amp=1) one will download: NOTICE TO STAKEHOLDERS: WITHDRAWAL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM AND EU RULES IN THE FIELD OF REGULATED PROFESSIONS AND THE RECOGNITION OF PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS. The second (http://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-databases/regprof/index.cfm?action=professions&quid=1&mode=asc&maxRows=*#top) one will list the professions in question (airline pilot included).

I'd recommend that you get your licence before 29 March 2019 and then transfer it to that of another EU nation (Spain/Ireland?).

Needless to say, this situation and many other similar ones would not apply if the UK "government" opted to remain in EEA as an EFTA member.
Thanks! This is acually good news:

RECOGNITIONS OF PROFESSIONAL QUALIFICATIONS RECOGNISED BEFORE THE
WITHDRAWAL DATE
The withdrawal of the United Kingdom does not affect decisions on the recognition
of professional qualifications obtained in the United Kingdom taken before the
withdrawal date on the basis of Directive 2005/36/EC by an EU-27 Member State.

So, I hope that the exams remain valid 3 years until you get the IR as usual.
I am actually going to get a Spanish license, so no transfer needed.
About getting the license before 29 march, yes, this is the only thing that provides 100% chance of not having to resit the exams, but It's less than a year... Some times the MEIR certification alone can take up to 6 months. An better not talk about the time between you apply fot a license and when that license is issued by the national authorities.

Again, thank you to all that you contribute with your knowledge in this hell.

Denti

24th Jun 2018, 05:04

Well, as i have have heard first hand in one of his visits around europe and the uk from Mr. Barnier that indeed both the norway model and the swiss way are on the table and have been both very directly and robustly declined by the UK (as, of course, they include free movement), i do believe it is somewhat reaking of project fear to say that any deal with the UK has to be more restricting than those two, but i am sure you have some links to prove your view. What the EU can not offer is any deal that is better than the existing ones. Of course, both Norway and Switzerland have border posts and controls, something that both sides do not want at the irish border and which is a big issue.

And it is absolutely fine to adjust any existing deal once the technology is actually there, however, Brexit is not happening at some unknown point in the future, it is happening now, we are already in the transition period which will end March of next year if no deal has been ratified by each and every parliament of the 28 states. A process which does indeed takes quite some time bit is of course required in a democratic process.

I realise that there has been some editing of this thread, and this post was a reply to a post by Brexiteers who, funny enough, states his location is in the western part of germany.

highcirrus

25th Jun 2018, 14:12

This link shows the UK airport certificates (https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/Standard_Content/Commercial_industry/Airports/Aerodrome_licences/20180201EASACertificatesV2.0.pdf) , set to become invalid on 30th March 2019 and which will need to be reissued under new UK legislation about to be passed. The new European Union (Withdrawal) Act embraces the EU acquis and scoops up all the Directives and Regulations from the EU and makes them domestic UK law, in a new category of law called Retained EU Law. In particular, new Article 68 (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+TA+P8-TA-2018-0245+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN) will apply. This law will give UK the legal basis to certify these airports for domestic use but without EU recognition, they can't be used internationally. They WILL be confined to domestic traffic.

Hopefully, the UK Government will be on top of the situation and realise that a "crash out" Hard Brexit would make negotiation for airport recognition a little problematical. Fingers crossed that a Withdrawal Agreement can be finalised at the upcoming European Council on 27/28 June.

VinRouge

25th Jun 2018, 14:22

superflanker

25th Jun 2018, 14:41

Hopefully, the UK Government will be on top of the situation and realise that a "crash out" Hard Brexit would make negotiation for airport recognition a little problematical. Fingers crossed that a Withdrawal Agreement can be finalised at the upcoming European Council on 27/28 June.

Hopefully. The consequences of reaching the date with no agreement/transition period are terrible for both countries (perhaps a little more for the UK...)

Heathrow Harry

25th Jun 2018, 15:22

Considering they've had two years and are still hoping it will be all right on the night I wouldn't bet a bucket of warm spit on this ending well I'm afraid.......

SamYeager

25th Jun 2018, 15:45

The new European Union (Withdrawal) Act embraces the EU acquis and scoops up all the Directives and Regulations from the EU and makes them domestic UK law, in a new category of law called Retained EU Law. In particular, new Article 68 (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+TA+P8-TA-2018-0245+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN) will apply. This law will give UK the legal basis to certify these airports for domestic use but without EU recognition, they can't be used internationally. They WILL be confined to domestic traffic.

Can't be used by EU airlines or can't be used by the rest of entire world's airlines?

Alber Ratman

25th Jun 2018, 20:40

Highcirrus, surely Article 127 will be reached if common sense prevails.The loss of international traffic from my regional would be the death of it.

superflanker

25th Jun 2018, 21:24

Highcirrus, surely Article 127 will be reached if common sense prevails.The loss of international traffic from my regional would be the death of it.

God I hope it doesn't!, how can so many british people be on board the "hard brexit" thing? Specially if those people are related to aviation, probably one of the most affected sectors! Seeing this from outside, I (of course) respect the british people's decision, but I don't understand all this anger against EU. A hard brexit will be terrible for both sides.

...or is this only a negotiation tactic? :suspect:

highcirrus

25th Jun 2018, 21:59

In the absence of a Withdrawal Agreement and a subsequent Transition Period, it will not be possible for EASA to enter into talks with the UK CAA to secure the optimum outcome, a Bilateral Aviation Safety Agreement (BASA). Hence UK airports will remain closed to all EU traffic immediately post-Brexit (and other blocs in the absence of similar BASAs). If anyone is looking for signs of "common sense" from UK's present "government" watch closely the failure of Theresa May & Co to present coherent proposals for an Agreement in Brussels this week on 27/28 June. EU may either pull out of talks right afterwards, reckoning a hopeless case, or keep things lurching onwards to November 2018, to give EU Stakeholders more time to prepare for Armageddon at 23.00 hrs UTC (00.00 CET) 29/30 March 2019. In whatever event, it looks likely that the 70 European Research Group (ERG) ultra-right UK MPs have control and are steering the nation to disaster. Prepare to hunker down fellow professionals.

.

highcirrus

26th Jun 2018, 09:17

Dr Richard North writes today (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86913#disqus_thread) specifically about Heathrow and the effect of a "no deal" Brexit

Then, there is not only the EASA aerodrome certification to consider. There are also the issues of safety certification of air traffic management and air navigation systems, where mutual recognition is required, and no agreements will be in place if the UK leaves the EU without a deal. Thus, even if it was theoretically possible for EU-based aircraft to land at Heathrow, that is not practically possible without the use of air traffic management and air navigation systems.

On top of this, there are the wider issues of open skies agreements (https://ec.europa.eu/transport/modes/air/international_aviation/external_aviation_policy_en) and slot allocations, which also control commercial access to airports such as Heathrow.

Putting the fragmented areas together, it is very hard to see how, in the context of a "no deal" Brexit, aviation agreements with the EU can survive. There is bound to be a very substantial effect on European traffic and, because EU standards are linked with the US and others through bilateral agreements and working arrangements, transatlantic and Asian traffic may also be affected.

There is nothing, of course, that cannot be negotiated with the EU, but in the light of what appear to be deteriorating relations and with no Withdrawal Agreement in sight, the possibility of a "no deal" Brexit cannot be rules out. That would almost certainly bring international traffic at Heathrow (and all other UK airports) to a complete halt.

Getting the airport back in operation though would not be that simple. There is not one agreement to deal with, but a host of issues, including the highly technical safety issues, which require formal procedures to resolve. One would see pressure for emergency action but, if the EU stands its ground, it could be several months before full functionality is restored.

After such a break in operations, and the certainty that UK businesses will be looking elsewhere (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/25/bmw-will-shut-uk-sites-if-customs-delays-clog-supply-post-brexit), it would be unwise to expect traffic volumes be automatically restored. Reduced trade volumes will affect freight and business travellers, while uncertainty over visas and freedom of movement will undoubtedly affect tourism.

I'm hoping for a miracle and the "government" at last waking up to UK retaining EEA membership through EFTA. All these problems would then melt away.

tescoapp

26th Jun 2018, 11:46

There is going to be effects that nobody envisaged.

Some of them such as current EU trade agreements being renegotiated/cancelled as the carrot has gone have been mentioned but pooh poohed by those that are anti Brexit.

I too live in the EU and its not mentioned locally either. They are told by Brussels everything is going to be great nothing to worry about and the media are very selective what they report.

I can think of several Eu airlines that are kept out of bankruptcy by UK traffic. And they really don't have enough cash reserves to last a couple of weeks never mind a month at the beginning of the season especially if nobody has been booking over the winter.

Its going to effect different countries in different ways, how survivable that is I really have no clue. No UK tourists and a substantially reduced market for agricultural product which is time limited before it rots will be national crisis for some. Other countries they won't notice the difference for months or unless the others cause the ECB problems.

29th of March is a nasty date. It kills the summer season from crop growing to tourist bookings for 2019 what ever happens.

To be honest I already think it to late to sort out.

Just a spotter

26th Jun 2018, 14:22

From Politico.eu

Filip Cornelis, the director of aviation at the Commission’s transport department, advised countries to be ready for the possibility of the U.K. crashing out of the EU without a deal on March 29 next year, saying that they should consider their customs handling capacity and prepare for impacts on security, market access, safety regulations and passenger rights.

https://www.politico.eu/article/airlines-customs-commission-to-eu27-prepare-airports-cargo-shipping-for-a-no-deal-brexit/

JAS

highcirrus

27th Jun 2018, 18:02

A couple of days ago I picked up in conversation with a former colleague that two UK organizations he knows of (major players in the industry) are requiring personnel to convert to non-UK EASA licences. He tells me that there is now a steady flow to swop existing UK tickets for Irish ones, at €600 a go, in anticipation of a hard Brexit.

Googlebug

28th Jun 2018, 15:34

Why so cryptic. What major players

highcirrus

28th Jun 2018, 17:38

Googlebug (https://www.pprune.org/members/434224-googlebug) You are kidding, right? Do you want me run over by a steamroller? Wait until the next set of official announcements.

tailend

28th Jun 2018, 21:19

The British 'government' is unlikely to have grasped the most elementary of impacts to aviation which is already befalling them. Airbus have long wanted to move the next gen wings to Germany or France - now they have to. Rolls Royce was very clear before the referendum that they would not invest further in the UK and are shifting expertise to Germany - the 4000 lays offs in Derby are Brexit not efficiency related. As an FI in conti Europe I await the geniuses Fox/Davis/Johnson to pull a miracle from the hat at the last minute - but not holding my breath.
Still at least the Brexiteers of Wales, Derby, Sunderland etc are getting their just desserts. Pity we are all going down the tube with them into Germany circa 1930's.

highcirrus

28th Jun 2018, 22:18

Are we seeing a pattern (https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/ba-budget-airline-anisec-launch-iag-british-airways-vienna-austria-a8420766.html) here guys?

British Airways’ parent company, IAG, has astonished the aviation market by launching a new Vienna-based subsidiary airline with less than three weeks’ notice before flights begin.

Still feeling happy holding a UK Part-FCL LIcence?

superflanker

29th Jun 2018, 10:59

Is delaying the Brexit date on the table?

highcirrus

29th Jun 2018, 11:11

superflanker No, that would require unanimous assent of the EU 28 nations (yes, UK as well) and time and patience is running short.

Icarus2001

29th Jun 2018, 11:58

Assuming that somebody knows that the piece of paper is needed,

I think it fair to assume that if a bunch of pilots on an anonymous forum know it is needed then CAA and EASA and the relevant minister knows. These people are not stupid, misguided, selfish and arrogant maybe but not stupid.
As said above, money talks, VERY loudly.

Denti

29th Jun 2018, 19:37

Sooner or later, UK will start to make a lot of concessions. Money rules this world, and this mess is not profitable for anyone, especially the UK.

Thing is, money rules the world, and money loves times of uncertainty and turmoil, which is of course a reason why Farages friends made already billions shorting the pound and others with setting up their fonds in ireland or malta. The old, but still true provert "buy when the cannons thunder" is not a bad indicator of that.

I don't think politicians know the minutiae of stuff like licenses, however, their support staff does. Which, in the end, does not matter all that much if ideology comes into play and that plays a huge role currently in british politics. Especially with the prominent role of the DUP and the weak parliamentary position of the Tories.

Heathrow Harry

30th Jun 2018, 07:40

I think it fair to assume that if a bunch of pilots on an anonymous forum know it is needed then CAA and EASA and the relevant minister knows. These people are not stupid, misguided, selfish and arrogant maybe but not stupid.
As said above, money talks, VERY loudly.

Maybe, just maybe, not the CAA & EASA officials - but have you ever MET a Minister of the Crown - let's just say the one's I have met over 40 years wouldn't be on University Challenge or Brain of Britain..............

the "Thick of it" wasn't a comedy - it was a documentary...............

highcirrus

11th Jul 2018, 08:53

Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-aviation/british-aviation-regulator-steps-up-planning-for-disorderly-brexit-idUSKBN1K027U) 10 July 2018:

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain’s aviation regulator has stepped up planning for a “no deal” disorderly Brexit, identifying how many new staff would be needed and preparing safety systems to take on work now carried out by European authorities.......

On Tuesday the CAA published information on its plans to fulfill functions now delivered by the European Aviation Safety Agency, EASA, should that become necessary.

The CAA has consistently stated the most positive outcome is that Britain stays in EASA, and the government has said it wants to explore the terms on which that could happen.

Airlines and aerospace companies such as Airbus (AIR.PA (https://www.reuters.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=AIR.PA)), which makes the wings for all its passenger jets in Britain, are worried about Britain being excluded from EASA because the body approves planes and aircraft components.

As part of its “non-negotiated” withdrawal plans, the CAA could need to hire 30 to 50 new members of staff, a source told Reuters, adding no such jobs were advertised currently.

The CAA also said it would need to cover some regulatory processes itself if there is no deal.

“Our preparatory work includes adjusting existing systems so that they could continue to work in exactly the same way as now – but with the UK Government and the CAA fulfilling regulatory functions independently of the EU,” the CAA said on its website.

“As an example, the CAA is creating the capability required for the UK to fulfill State of Design responsibilities independently of EASA should that be needed once the UK leaves the EU.”

UK aerospace industry body ADS has said it would take approximately 5-10 years for the CAA to rebuild its safety regulation capability to take over from EASA.

superflanker

11th Jul 2018, 09:58

"UK aerospace industry body ADS has said it would take approximately 5-10 years for the CAA to rebuild its safety regulation capability to take over from EASA."

Meanwhile...?

dboy

11th Jul 2018, 10:13

What happens in case of a soft brexit ( brexit light version)???

highcirrus

11th Jul 2018, 10:23

superflanker

Meanwhile...?

Precisely. I wonder if Theresa can come up with anything suitable now that two of her Three Stooges have resigned?

dboy

What happens in case of a soft brexit ( brexit light version)???

In this case, we likely stay in EEA as an EFTA member rather than currently as an EU member and therefore stay in EASA/current Air Service Agreements. But remember, we're plucky Brits who do things the hard way and respect "the will of the people" (TM Theresa May, HoC, 9 July 2018). So is soft brexit likely to happen under this current "government"?

Hussar 54

11th Jul 2018, 21:52

Denti

12th Jul 2018, 06:51

It's not just aircraft and aviation.

The UK could, of course, decide ( or retaliate - take your pick ) that after the UK leaves the EU and is squeezed out of EASA, that cars need to have a UK issued Type Approval as those issued in France, Germany, Poland, Slovakia, Italy, Sweden, Spain, etc, are no longer applicable to a non-EU member.

Type Approval for Cars (http://www.dft.gov.uk/vca/vehicletype/type-approval-for-ca.asp)

Of course, the UK could do that. Which might hurt some OEMs, although currently they are more concerned about china and the US. And at least the german OEMs have already stated that the continued integrity of the EU single market is more valuable to them than a fudged brexit deal, although they would of course prefer a good deal, which includes UK membership in the single market and customs union.

highcirrus

12th Jul 2018, 12:04

Hussar 54

Vehicle Type Approval (VTA) might be a little off topic. However, I would think that UK using the issue as a retaliatory tool against the EU, post brexit, might be a little ill advised. Proceed with caution might be a better maxim, especially as VTA is actually a matter set above EU level by UNECE (United Nations Economic Commission Europe) and its WP.29 (Working Party .29) group. The link you provide seems to be slightly misleading in that it gives the impression that the EU sets VTA standards. This is not the case; the EU accepts the UNECE/WP.29 rules handed down (rule taking, as our politicians quaintly term it) and then issues its own Directives for the EU28 nations to implement.

Dr Richard North, yet again, provides interested parties with immaculately researched and reasoned pieces on his blog here (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86929#disqus_thread) and here (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86928#disqus_thread). Well worth a concentrated read if you wish to attain knowledge greater than the sum total of our "government".