EC notice on BREXIT issued, licenses/certificates invalid

[Raikum]

It's much worse than that.... In essence, if you read the so called political declaration, after 29.03.2019 the UK falls off the cliff edge. UK licenses (beit Pilots, Engineers or Truck drivers etc etc) are no longer valid. And, furthermore Cabotage rules will ground all UK airlines flying to the EU. And the bloody UK government agreed to this... And me, a UK citizen living in France, well I'm abandoned too.
I'm going to transfer my UK truck license to a French equivilent and I suggest any pilots, engineers etc get an EASA license whilst they still can.

What a mess.....

[Icarus2001]

And, furthermore Cabotage rules will ground all UK airlines flying to the EU If anyone thinks that this will happen you are crazy. Too many vested interests and money at stake.

[fairflyer]

The text relating to EASA in the 26 page Political Declaration reads:

'The parties should treat one another as single entities....including certification....The parties will also explore the possibility of cooperation of United Kingdom Authorities with Union agencies such as the...European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).

i.e. we're coming out of EASA but we'll try to align as closely as we can.

We have been lied to by the likes of Grayling and other ministers who all implied 'don't worry, of course we'll stay in EASA, it will be insane not to'

This is mind-blowingly stupid, the damage will be huge. From today onwards, all UK-based aviation businesses will hedge their bets by all pratical means to the detriment of UK plc

[sellbydate]

I am staggered that this isn't front page news today - either with May's Deal or No Deal, we are leaving EASA. This is monumentally idiotic. We will 'seek' and 'explore' close alignment but we will not be part of EASA. Why isn't the aerospace and aviation industry screaming the house down this morning? The CAA's ability (or not) to ramp up swiftly to take on the full burden of effectively replacing EASA has been highlighted over the couple of years. Why the silence? Airbus? BAe? What the hell is going on?

[BONES_]

For those who haven't read it yet:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/758556/22_November_Draft_Political_Declaration_setting_out_the_fram ework_for_the_future_relationship_between_the_EU_and_the_UK_ _agreed_at_negotiators__level_and_agreed_in_principle_at_pol itical_level__subject_to_endorsement_by_Leaders.pdf

24. While preserving regulatory autonomy, the Parties will put in place provisions to promote regulatory approaches that are transparent, efficient, promote avoidance of unnecessary barriers to trade in goods and are compatible to the extent possible. Disciplines on technical barriers to trade (TBT) and sanitary and phytosanitary measures (SPS) should build on and go beyond the respective WTO agreements. Specifically, the TBT disciplines should set out common principles in the fields of standardisation, technical regulations, conformity assessment, accreditation, market surveillance, metrology and labelling. The Parties should treat one another as single entities as regards SPS measures, including for certification purposes, and recognise regionalisation on the basis of appropriate epidemiological information provided by the exporting party. The Parties will also explore the possibility of cooperation of United Kingdom authorities with Union agencies such as the European Medicines Agency (EMA), the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA), and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).

25. In this context, the United Kingdom will consider aligning with Union rules in relevant areas.

X. TRANSPORT

A. Aviation

60. The Parties should ensure passenger and cargo air connectivity through a Comprehensive Air Transport Agreement (CATA). The CATA should cover market access and investment, aviation safety and security, air traffic management, and provisions to ensure open and fair competition, including appropriate and relevant consumer protection requirements and social standards.

61. The Parties should make further arrangements to enable cooperation with a view to high standards of aviation safety and security, including through close cooperation between EASA and the United Kingdom's Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).

The way I understand it is that the UK would be leaving EASA but keep its national regulations aligned to allow future close cooperation. Regarding to licensing and certification, it will be interesting to see what is going to happen by 29th March 2019; if mutual recognition is ended, are we going to see a straight "guillotine" or perhaps some sort of grace period to allow effectively obtaining both EASA and UK national licences, certification etc?

[sellbydate]

Thing is, that is a political declaration. Subject to change and veto by any of the EU27 and their regional parliaments once it has been negotiated into a legally binding agreement. Which it isn’t as of yet. It simply says: that is what we all probably want. Not more, not less. If the EU27 see a way to get more out of it they will play that hand, after all they could not care less about the UK, it is about their own self interest of course.

The key point though is that we will be controlled, audited, regulated 100% by the UK CAA and not EASA as the UK will not accept the jurisdiction of the EJC. That, in every possible scenario, is very bad news.

[FiveGirlKit]

In Politico yesterday - if the deal is agreed, it seems The UK will leave EASA at the end of the transition period (end of 2020). If the deal is not agreed, the UK will leave EASA on 29 March 2019.

Brexit declaration makes clear UK will not seek to stay in EASA
-- By Joshua Posaner and Jacopo Barigazzi
11/22/18, 12:13 PM CET
The U.K. will maintain “close cooperation” with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), stopping short of membership, according to an expanded version of the joint political declaration on Brexit being discussed by EU ambassadors today.“Parties should make further arrangements to enable cooperation with a view to high standards of aviation safety and security, including through close cooperation between EASA and the United Kingdom’s Civil Aviation Authority,” the expanded declaration, obtained by POLITICO, said.The agreement sets out what should be negotiated over the coming months as part of a future relationship once Brexit happens and the transition phase ends. The expanded declaration calls for a new comprehensive air transport agreement to be worked up to cover everything from market access and investment to aviation safety and security, air traffic management, and provisions to ensure open and fair competition.That should also cover passenger rights and consumer protection, the deal said.In the joint declaration the two sides agree to maintain rail services like the Belfast-Dublin Enterprise Line and services through the Channel Tunnel. They also propose to set up an exchange of information between the European Maritime Safety Agency and the U.K.’s Maritime and Coastguard Agency.The text also calls for “comparable market access” for road transport operators.

To view online: https://www.politico.eu/pro/brexit-declaration-makes-clear-uk-will-not-seek-to-stay-in-easa/ (https://politico.us8.list-manage.com/track/click?u=e26c1a1c392386a968d02fdbc&id=38b31dc960&e=416280f2eb)

[robin]

That is appalling. For over 2 years I've had letters from the CAA and MPs saying completely the opposite - that we would aim to stay within EASA.

At such a late stage to rat on that position is criminal negligence

[sellbydate]

That is appalling. For over 2 years I've had letters from the CAA and MPs saying completely the opposite - that we would aim to stay within EASA.

At such a late stage to rat on that position is criminal negligence

You are right, industry has been consistently assured that in one form or other we will remain a member of EASA by the CAA hierarchy, government departments and representatives - as of yesterday that was clearly and concisely exposed as an outright lie. We now categorically leave EASA at end of a transition period, or we crash out this March. Total and utter betrayal.

[Una Due Tfc]

If anyone thinks that this will happen you are crazy. Too many vested interests and money at stake.

That’s an awful lot of faith, straw clutching and praying considering what an absolute mess this entire negotiation process has been. If you crash out at the end of March, none of your licenced personnel are certified to operate, no G registered aircraft is certified as airworthy.

Now there’s likely to be some kind of workaround there (we hope). Where there’s no workaround is the UK has virtually no bilaterals with other countries anymore for air travel, they’ve all been replaced by EU ones. Case and point EU-US openskies replacing Bermuda. These things take quite a while to negotiate. If there’s a hard Brexit in March, UK airlines can’t carry fare paying passengers to the US, EU and most other countries (and vice versa).

Now that hurts every airline, but most especially the UK airlines, putting them in the position of weakness at the outset of negotiations. Have fun with the Trump and Jinping administrations in that case.

[BONES_]

For those having to transfer their licence to another EASA country, the UK CAA strongly recommends to start the process by the end of the year - considering Christmas closure and very high volume of transactions, i dare to say 3 months might be tight.

http://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/commercial-pilots/


To enable the CAA time to complete its part in the licence transfer process, the CAA advises that application forms from the NAA need to be submitted to the CAA by January 1 2019. We will endeavour to transfer any application received after this date, but the process may not be completed by 29 March 2019.

[James7]

Which is the easiest EASA country to transfer to. Does Ireland still accept transfers. Thanks Jim

[dirk85]

I am sure my UK employer had a fast track in the processing of the paperwork from both sides, but from UK to Austria it took me less than a month.

[icarus sun]

With your new EASA license will that allow you to work.
I doubt it,i think everyone will need work permits as well.

[The Old Fat One]

I am staggered that this isn't front page news today - either with May's Deal or No Deal, we are leaving EASA. This is monumentally idiotic. We will 'seek' and 'explore' close alignment but we will not be part of EASA. Why isn't the aerospace and aviation industry screaming the house down this morning? The CAA's ability (or not) to ramp up swiftly to take on the full burden of effectively replacing EASA has been highlighted over the couple of years. Why the silence? Airbus? BAe? What the hell is going on?

I have pondered the deafening silence from the aviation industry in all matters brexit for a while (and researched it a little) and have concluded that too much "fear and panic" would hit the forward booking hard come January, when the mainstream UK public traditionally start booking up their hols/flights for Easter onwards. This in turn would be the nail in the coffin for some airlines/holiday firms, which, let's be honest, are never that far from going belly up. Case in point, Thomas Cook, profit warning this week - didn't see any mention of a "brexit effect" anywhere (disclaimer, didn't look very hard, only read the bullets, so it might get mentioned in the small print). Where will Thomas Cook and the like be if the Great British Public circle their wagons and stay at home for the first six months of 2019? Which, by the way, is increasingly the advice of any number of travel journalists.

Furthermore, I suspect the "deafening silence" is about to end, as TM takes every possible opportunity to scare the bejeezus out of everybody, to get her deal signed up. Please don't take my post as having the remotest bremain/brexit/deal/no deal bias. I long ago gave up giving any sort of a poop how this plays out. Like most now I am purely concerned with circling my own wagons and staying aware of likely outcomes, so in order to avoid the mucky stuff as it flies every which way.

[The Old Fat One]

Interestingly, I have just read a beeb article re the Public Accounts Committee fears over border disruption in the no deal scenario. They claim the Department for Transport has been too secretive about its plans. And the DfT reply:

'The DfT says preparations need to be kept secret to avoid them damaging the commercial interests of the firms involved'

That is pretty much exactly what I am saying above re the "silence" from the aviation sector.

[Hawkeye63]

I have to say I am finding this increasingly difficult to follow because of all the differing interpretations of information!
So here's my 'two penneth';
The EU has issued a draft document expressing their wish is for the UK to remain in EASA after Brexit even in the event of a no-deal.
The UK CAA issued a statement expressing their preference is for the UK to remain in EASA.
TM's proposed deal expresses a wish to 'align' with EASA. What does this actually mean? Who knows for sure? Frankly you can discuss it until the cows come home. All I know is - it is surely in the interest of all holders of a 'professional qualification' to remain in EASA regardless of a deal or no-deal?
Personally I think TM is seeking a deal that keeps the UK in EASA until 2020 only to allow extra thinking time to fully assess the impact of leaving EASA because nobody is sure (just like the N.I. border).
Meanwhile we all sweat!

[Denti]

"Alignment" and "equivalence" are legal terms. Alignment actually means that you have to align your laws to those of the leading body (the EU in this case) with no divergence possible. Which of course would mean that the UK would have to incorporate EU law without any input to it, quite difficult in any case, and especially in this one. Equivalence means, that the individual legal approach of one country is deemed sufficiently equivalent to another that it allows to accept that set of laws to be equivalent, while not being the same. That happens between the EU and the US for example in quite a few areas (over 150 agreements between the EU and the US do exist today). However, equivalence can be cancelled by either side unilaterally with just 30 days notice, unless otherwise safeguarded. It needs constant work and consultation and is extremely labour intensive on the regulatory side for both parties.

That said, i haven't seen any statement of the EU (council or commission) that expresses any wish to keep the UK in EASA, just a preparatory notice that the EU would be willing to assume equivalence for the first few moments after a disorderly brexit, provided that the UK reciprocates, however, that is just an opinion for now and does not constitute a legal framework. As a "no deal" or rather disorderly brexit would become apparent a few weeks before brexit date, that could be hardened in emergency negotiations on that topic, however, for that it will compete with other stuff like medical transportation etc. as for example the UK cannot produce enough insulin on its own to keep its diabetics alive, most is imported from the EU. Air travel is important, but not necessarily a life or death scenario like other stuff is.

[The Old Fat One]

...As a "no deal" or rather disorderly brexit would become apparent a few weeks before brexit date...

I think (not 100% sure) that under Article 50 intended actions on a no-deal brexit have to be clarified on or about 21st of January.

[Hawkeye63]

www.parliament.uk/documents/commons-committees/liaison/Oral-evidence-from-the-Prime-Minister-29-11-2018.pdf.
see questions 98-105
Deal or no-deal it would appear the UK is not committing to being a member of EASA by the 29th March because TM wants further negotiations regardless. The EU has previously stated all professional qualifications will be invalid after this date. Then again the other day the EU leaders agreed the proposed deal in principal didn't they? So they will agree to discuss after 29th March or not?
Better get your applications ready to covert boys & girls because even if this proposal is voted in it still doesn't commit us to staying in EASA. I'm losing the will to live.

[PuraVidaTransport]

Hopefully, being held hostage like this this will make other nations think more closely about giving up their sovereignty.

[Asturias56]

Having spoken to a lot of varied Europeans over the last few months it's clear that BREXIT has done for the idea of leaving the EU what Troy did for accepting gifts from Greeks...................

[Global_Global]

Hopefully, being held hostage like this this will make other nations think more closely about giving up their sovereignty.

Held hostage? Well we ended up with these BREXIT rules thanks to.... a Brit.. Lord Kerr, who is the British author of Article 50 :p

Just like the FTL rules at EASA that we got thanks to the UK CAA their campaign :rolleyes:

Just in case you missed it PuraVida: the British politicians knew about the rules of Article 50 from day one as their civil servants wrote it! From DAY 1 it was clear that there were 6 scenario's... AND that there was no negotiations as such except on details. So go back to your politicians and ask them to stop lying to you and the press to do a better job in explaining a very clear SOP for leaving the EU. Pick one of the six scenarios and bugger off!

[zerograv]

de facto

Could someone please advise the fee for licence verification asked by the uk caa before transfering to another easa ? (Irish in my case).

Fees on the UK side:
- £45 for Licence Verification ( Form SRG 1160)
- £77 for transfer of your Medical Data

Fees on the Irish side:
- €600 for issue of an ATPL (do not know how much to issue a CPL, if that's your case)

PM if you want, or need, more info on the subject

[SFIM]

Good Afternoon,

I am trying to make sense of all the paperwork for a SOLI change to Ireland.

Please can anyone confirm that I didnt miss anything out?

heres what i think you have to do:-

____________________________________

SRG 1202 - transfer of medical records.
first part completed by pilot then sent to CAA for full completion with separate payment form SRG 1201.

SRG 2150 - application to release information to IAA for the SOLI change.
attachments -

Certified copy of licence
Examiner report forms
Payment form FCS1500, which is included with the SRG 2150



The RPPL-F-100E which is sent direct to the IAA with

copy of licence,
copy of medical
passport

[zerograv]

SFIM

The important part, the thing that is going to set things in motion, is to send the " RPPL-F-100E" to the IAA.

By all means the forms that you need to be sent to the UK CAA are also important. However the UK CAA will not do anything until they receive a formal request from the IAA to provide information about the licence, and medical data, of the applicant that is applying to change SOLI.

de facto

About your question regarding the "licence copy must be certified", if your licence is "as issued by the CAA", in other words, if since it was issued by the CAA there were no handwritten entries made on the licence by a TRE, in case of an LPC, then the copy of the licence needs NOT to be certified. Search the UK CAA website for "How to get copies of your documents certified". At the end of the page it mentions what I wrote on this paragraph. If you however did any LPC's since your licence was issued, and this were endorsed on your licence by the TRE, then I'm afraid that you will have to certify the copy of your licence. There is an explanation on the CAA website on how to get this done.

[Lexsis]

I dont understand why the UK CAA always has the need to recieve a virified copy of a license for the smallest things. They are they only CAA I know who require someone else to sign that they have seen the original...wtf...

[Flocks]

For those like me, who got now an European license, what about the medical ?

we will not be longer valid with a UK medical after 29march, we need to have a EASA medical whatever the country, but does mean traveling abroad just for medical ... ????

[Denti]

For those like me, who got now an European license, what about the medical ?

we will not be longer valid with a UK medical after 29march, we need to have a EASA medical whatever the country, but does mean traveling abroad just for medical ... ????
Probably.

The advice i have seen so far was to get a medical in EASAland (non-UK) before March 29th next year. Just to be on the safe side. Now, there might be AMEs in the UK that have been approved by other NAAs as well and can do it without travelling abroad, but i have no clue there are. I just know that my AME in germany is approved by the CAA, the FAA and of course the LBA (and i believe they try to get their AMC transferred to switzerland as germany is just bonkers).

[W Smith]

In EASA land all of your records - for your licence and for your medical certificate - have to be held by the same country.
Where the medical examinations and skill tests take place is up to the authorised examiners (medical and flying respectively).
I believe there can be difficulties with transferring away from Germany (and maybe Austria) to another State because their national law puts restrictions on transferring medical information out of the country.

[ATC Watcher]

In EASA land all of your records - for your licence and for your medical certificate - have to be held by the same country.
Where the medical examinations and skill tests take place is up to the authorised examiners (medical and flying respectively).
I believe there can be difficulties with transferring away from Germany (and maybe Austria) to another State because their national law puts restrictions on transferring medical information out of the country.

That was the case until 2 years ago but now it seems a medical can be passed in any EASA country regardless of which country the licence is held. . As far as Germany is concerned, , I have tried it and passed it in Germany last year and the French DGAC accepts it no problem . . The medical certificate form has now "European union " on top instead of the country's name, "pertaining to a Part-FCL Licence" and " issued in accordance with Part-MED" at the bottom. However I am not sure every country accepts it from every other one , but France accepts Germans medicals .

[SFIM]

The important part, the thing that is going to set things in motion, is to send the " RPPL-F-100E" to the IAA.

seeme to me the real risk here comes from the UK CAA failing supply the info in time on the Doc 155 ☹️

[excrab]

Obviously like many here I having been following this thread with great interest. Many of those posting on here know far more about the topic than I do.
However, I had the good fortune to talk directly to the Flight Ops director of a major UK airline a few weeks ago, who assured me that even in the event of a hard Brexit, on March 29th they can keep operating.
they base that belief on the assurances that the CAA will continue to recognise all UK licences and approvals issued under the umbrella of EASA as still being valid to operate G ref aircraft, and that ICAO third and fourt freedom rights will still exist between the UK and individual European nations which are still ICAO members regardless of EASA.
Im sure they have taken a huge amount of alegal advice before deciding this to be the case, so whilst I can see easy jet and Ryan air having a problem, what is the issue for UK based operators of UK registered aircraft operating out and back flights to Europe with no intermediate sectors?

[wiggy]

However, I had the good fortune to talk directly to the Flight Ops director of a major UK airline a few weeks ago, who assured me that even in the event of a hard Brexit, on March 29th they can keep operating.

Um....I wonder...sounds a familiar claim.... I know one such airline who employ a significant number of non resident EU national Flight/cabin crew. Out of interest did your contact mention the consequences of the end of FOM to his many of his staff’s ability to legitimately to cross the Border into the U.K. on the way to work on the A.M. of 30th March, or does he simply expect them to “wing it”?? As it stands today their status as roughly speaking “frontier workers” has, AFAIK (and open to correction), yet to be clarified so it’s possible the ICAO Freedoms for airframes might be the least of his or problems...

[TheWhofan]

Held hostage? Well we ended up with these BREXIT rules thanks to.... a Brit.. Lord Kerr, who is the British author of Article 50 :p

Just like the FTL rules at EASA that we got thanks to the UK CAA their campaign :rolleyes:

Just in case you missed it PuraVida: the British politicians knew about the rules of Article 50 from day one as their civil servants wrote it! From DAY 1 it was clear that there were 6 scenario's... AND that there was no negotiations as such except on details. So go back to your politicians and ask them to stop lying to you and the press to do a better job in explaining a very clear SOP for leaving the EU. Pick one of the six scenarios and bugger off!

If I may, a small correction; British civil servants did not write it, and Lord Kerr did not draft article 50, it was Guiliano Amato, the Ex President of Italy, and a lawyer (Kerr is a diplomat) who drafted the article.

Kerr was part of the team involved in that drafting that part of the Lisbon Treaty, but not the final drafter.

You are correct however about the utter lack of knowledge of the procedures and meanings of Article 50.

[excrab]

Um....I wonder...sounds a familiar claim.... I know one such airline who employ a significant number of non resident EU national Flight/cabin crew. Out of interest did your contact mention the consequences of the end of FOM to his many of his staff’s ability to legitimately to cross the Border into the U.K. on the way to work on the A.M. of 30th March, or does he simply expect them to “wing it”?? As it stands today their status as roughly speaking “frontier workers” has, AFAIK (and open to correction), yet to be clarified so it’s possible the ICAO Freedoms for airframes might be the least of his or problems...






Errr.... No. When I worked for them last, which was five years ago, I can't remember there being any non UK cabin crew, and very few non UK flight crew. Don't think it's changed much.

Anyway, disregarding CRM for a moment, this is a pilot's forum. Your is post is the first I've seen on this thread addressing cabin crew issues. And if a small number of non-UK European nationals lose the right to work in UK airlines they can presumably do a job swap with the UK nationals who may no longer have the right to work in Europe. What is the point of having an EASA licence to fly a non UK reg aircraft if you no longer have the right to live and work in Europe, or are you going to renounce your British Citizenship?

I sincerely hope that anyone who works in the airline industry and voted to leave has now realised that it may have been like Turkeys voting for Christmas, and would vote remain if we get another referendum.

[wiggy]

Ok apologies, sounded like an airline close to home personally but obviously not the one I was thinking of.

if a small number of non-UK European nationals lose the right to work in UK airlines they can presumably do a job swap with the UK nationals who may no longer have the right to work in Europe.

Be genuinely interesting to see where the balance of numbers of respective nationals fall, because at one U.K. airline the number of Eu national non-resident crew is into several hundreds. Would make 30 th March interesting if the U.K. falls out with a “no deal” with no v quick agreement to any “frontier worker” or similar issues.

Hopefully it won’t come to that.

[Skyjob]

I sincerely hope that anyone who works in the airline industry and voted to leave has now realised that it may have been like Turkeys voting for Christmas, and would vote remain if we get another referendum.
I’d like to see that happen as well, but having spoken to many of my colleagues they still even now believe that leav8ng is the best option... amazing...:ugh:

[Major Cleve Saville]

2 ways of looking at it. Is the chaos caued by Brexit or having been part of the European Project. Looking at the whole of Europe the European Union has caused far more chaos than Brexit ever will. I for one could do without EASA, another protectionist racket driven by politics not safety.

[ATC Watcher]

the European Union has caused far more chaos than Brexit ever will. .
Well tell this to the staff of Easy Jet and Ryanair currently based in the continent..

[CroqueMonsieur]

Well tell this to the staff of Easy Jet and Ryanair currently based in the continent..

A different medical and paperwork for a licence conversion is an annoyance. But I could hardly describe that as chaotic. No more ‘chaotic’ than when UK pilots all hit a trigger event and had to convert their UK licence to EASA.

[nebojsar]

Thanks,
By the way,the irish caa is amazingly fast in replying and straight to the point rather than those semi generic crap answers we get for the uk after 3 weeks....maybe its for the best then..
Maybe you are lucky i sent mail to them week ago with no response, and that was just to confirm my mail got in. Telephone not working...

[Major Cleve Saville]

Well tell this to the staff of Easy Jet and Ryanair currently based in the continent..
Yes tell all the unemployed young people of Europe how lucky they are, could be worse EasyJet and Ryanair pilots have to complete some forms to keep their jobs. I have gone UK JAA and EASA.. I must be a 'legend'.

[ATC Watcher]

I have gone UK JAA and EASA.. I must be a 'legend'. or a dinausaur , but I like "legend" too.. JAA was a great invention , run by competent people, EASA less so I grant you that.
But if you are from hat era you must remember the queues at the border on the roads and the mess at passport control ? Also both Easy and RYR have brought down fares and possibilities all over Europe compared to that era. Nostalgic of the past ? You might get that in the UK shortly if it ends up with a hard Brexit with no deal.

[SFIM]

Maybe you are lucky i sent mail to them week ago with no response, and that was just to confirm my mail got in. Telephone not working...

can imagine how busy the peeps at the IAA must be right now, I suspect talking to people to confirm about the papers they already have is not a priority for them right now.

Anhow I have also pulled the trigger and my papers as well should be in Dublin tomorrow, hope I didn’t leave it too late.

[airsound]

In case you missed it, on 30 November, the Department for Transport (DfT) announced that Millions of passengers will be able to enjoy the same access to transatlantic routes once the UK leaves the EU. ..... the UK has reached a new air services arrangement with Canada which will see flights continue between the 2 nations post Brexit.

The deal ensures that planes flying from the UK will continue to enjoy the same access they currently have with Canada, helping the UK maintain its place as Europe’s most important aviation hub.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/transatlantic-flight-guarantee-as-uk-and-canada-agree-new-air-arrangement

It follows a similar announcement two days earlier about an ‘open skies’ air services arrangement with the USA and nine other countries.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-and-us-agree-new-open-skies-arrangements

Presumably that will all depend on there being enough crew with the appropriate licenses to fly these routes, and enough aeroplanes with appropriate certification.

airsound

[Asturias56]

"helping the UK maintain its place as Europe’s most important aviation hub."

They mean Transatlantic dead end? If you can't fly on to Europe it isn't much of a European hub is it??

[asmith474]

could someone help me out on what steps I should take

I have a class 1 medical from the UK. Havent actually started any flying lessons yet but will be starting my PPL in poland after january. How would i go about changing my medical to a polish medical ? Would I just have to re do an initial first class medical in poland?

[nightfright]

I believe if you have a class 1 issued by one EASA state, this will be transferred to another EASA stated and accepted. So you will not need to re do the medical again. But happy to be corrected.

[airsound]

It seems that the possibility of flights being grounded on 30 March is being taken more seriously. Sunday Times Deputy Political Editor, Caroline Wheeler, has a piece today headlined
…don’t go on holiday after March 29.

It includes this:
Families will be advised not to book holidays after next March, according to contingency plans being drawn up to prepare for a no-deal Brexit.
The proposed guidance, which will shock the travel industry, was expected to be discussed at last week’s cancelled cabinet meeting, after civil servants were told to ramp up emergency planning.
Senior officials have explored the idea with at least one cabinet minister and discussed the impact that the advice could have on specific tour operators amid fears it might bankrupt them. A leak inquiry was under way in No 10 last night to establish how the proposal became public.
and
The European Regions Airline Association, which represents 50 airlines, wrote to the European Commission this month warning that it must act urgently to prevent the grounding of flights. It said a no-deal Brexit could have “disastrous consequences”, affecting routes, aviation safety and border security. The Ryanair boss, Michael O’Leary, said in September that a hard Brexit could lead to flights being grounded and that its likelihood was underestimated.

The piece is at
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/no-deal-brexit-travel-warning-dont-go-on-holiday-after-march-29-jnfmrgsj9
but I suspect it may be behind a paywall.

airsound

[robin]

Interesting to see the Govt's first reaction is to set up a leak enquiry.

Personally I'm more worried about the complete failure of the UK Govt to sort out our licences and approvals in good time. It's now pretty much too late to do anything about it so it's squeaky bum time for a bit

[The Old Fat One]

I posted about this exact issue at #527

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/607757-ec-notice-brexit-issued-licenses-certificates-invalid-27.html#post10322386

With TM possibly taking this to the wire (the wire legally being 21st Jan) the impact on those airlines/tour operators currently circling the drain may be terminal. And this is a matter of the public perception regarding risk to their pockets and their holiday plans. Government disclaimers will have little impact (for most us, the square root of not a lot).

What was it Bojo said about business?

[wiggy]

Interesting to see the Govt's first reaction is to set up a leak enquiry.

Personally I'm more worried about the complete failure of the UK Govt.

Fixed it for you....

(And I know, in reality not funny at all now for all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons)

[asmith474]

I believe if you have a class 1 issued by one EASA state, this will be transferred to another EASA stated and accepted. So you will not need to re do the medical again. But happy to be corrected.

How do i transfer my medical to another easa state. From the CAA website there is only a transfer option from an EASA state to them. Im trying to do the opposite and change to polish medical license

[BONES_]

Fill up SRG 1202 form so that the UK CAA can release your medical details. Make sure they receive it - you might need to wait some time.

Then, since you don’t have a valid licence yet, contact your new CAA (the aeromedical section of the Polish CAA in this case). Follow their instructions and you’ll get your new EASA medical.

It’s not a hard process but can be very slow.

[BaronVonBarnstormer]

Fill up SRG 1202 form so that the UK CAA can release your medical details. Make sure they receive it - you might need to wait some time.

Then, since you don’t have a valid licence yet, contact your new CAA (the aeromedical section of the Polish CAA in this case). Follow their instructions and you’ll get your new EASA medical.

It’s not a hard process but can be very slow.

There are forms SRG2150 and also SRG1202. Do both need to be completed for changing the state of issue of the medical certificate?

[zerograv]

asmith474

Like BONES said get in touch with the Polish CAA. They are the best entity to advise you on the subject ... (assuming that the ATO that you will attend to do the PPL is a Polish ATO). Also check with the ATO (the flight school) that you will attend to do the PPL after January to see what advise they can provide on the subject.

Fill up SRG 1202 form so that the UK CAA can release your medical details. Make sure they receive it - you might need to wait some time.

NOT sure about this. Believe that SRG 1202 is to transfer from another EASA country, to the CAA. The form says:
"Transfer of Medical Records to the UK Aeromedical Section (AMS)"
I recently transfered from the UK to Ireland, and did not use SRG 1202.
You have however to use SRG 1201. This is to pay (£77) to the UK CAA, so that they will transfer your Medical Data to the Polish CAA.

Originally Posted by nightfright https://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/607757-ec-notice-brexit-issued-licenses-certificates-invalid-29.html#post10336628)I believe if you have a class 1 issued by one EASA state, this will be transferred to another EASA stated and accepted. So you will not need to re do the medical again. But happy to be corrected.
No need to be corrected. You are correct ...

[SFIM]

I would love to know how many applications the IAA have been recieving, they must be crazy busy.
about 1/2 of my colleagues (all the UK licence holders) have applied this week!

[Milutin]

I would love to know how many applications the IAA have been recieving, they must be crazy busy.
about 1/2 of my colleagues (all the UK licence holders) have applied this week!

Is there any reason in particular everyone here seems to be going over to the IAA? Might be a good idea to avoid them at this point given how much volume they are receiving. What are the Scandinavian authorities like?

[nebojsar]

I would love to know how many applications the IAA have been recieving, they must be crazy busy.
about 1/2 of my colleagues (all the UK licence holders) have applied this week!

I sent my papers last week november, was received on 29th by IAA, still no response, simple adding of endorsement. When I did conversion to Ireland it took roughly 12 weeks (that was year ago).
Last endorsement I added in October was done for 2 weeks sharp. I hope they have some mandatory deadlines otherwise it can take months.

[zerograv]

they must be crazy busy
Also think so ! When I went there to get my licence, there were pilots (fresh CPLs) that are joining Ryan, that were swapping from an EU Authority (not the UK) to Ireland, because Ryan probably demands that their crew to have IAA licences. Therefore if everyone that works at Ryan has to have an IAA licence, that already gives them some work to do. If you add ASL, Stobart and Air Lingus, then they probably already have more than enough work to do, without the people that are jumping from the UK to Ireland.

or are UK operators now encouraging their pilots to get eu easa licences so as to hedge their bets?
Read somewhere in here, some months ago, that Easy asked 1400 of their pilots to swap their licences from the UK to Austria.

simple adding of endorsement

Nebojsar

If you wouldn't mind the question, when you say "simple adding of endorsement", this means that you are adding a new rating to your licence, or you did an LPC and the Examiner choose not to endorse the licence, and therefore you have to apply for a new licence ? In my view the first possibility is slightly more work for the IAA, then the second possibility. Will have to do an LPC sometime in the near future , hence my curiosity ...

[nebojsar]

If you wouldn't mind the question, when you say "simple adding of endorsement", this means that you are adding a new rating to your licence, or you did an LPC and the Examiner choose not to endorse the licence, and therefore you have to apply for a new licence ? In my view the first possibility is slightly more work for the IAA, then the second possibility. Will have to do an LPC sometime in the near future , hence my curiosity ...

I had skill test and waiting TR to be endorsed on license. I don't think it is much more job than other regular endorsement. If other CAA's can do it in 7 days timeframe I suppose every CAA can do it as well. I asked about paid express service as in UK CAA, they don't have it, so I need to be patient :rolleyes:

[SFIM]

If other CAA's can do it in 7 days timeframe I suppose every CAA can do it as well.

the UK CAA don’t do anything in 7 days in my experience, I have had the misfortune to have asked for a licence verification letter many times and it always takes a month.
i believe the UK CAA are saying 19 working days to turn around the Doc 155 and send it to the IAA (or wherever)
however the IAA seem to be making the initial request more or less immediately which is nice.

[nebojsar]

the UK CAA don’t do anything in 7 days in my experience, I have had the misfortune to have asked for a licence verification letter many times and it always takes a month.
I was not speaking about UK caa, but other easa caa's of my colleagues. I heard about UK caa, but at least you have there express service option.

[zerograv]

Nebojsar

Thanks for your feedback ! It certainly sounds an awful long time to add a TR to a licence.

Admittedly, up to last year, the UK CAA used to be very good. Was always able to get everything done on same day, often in 1 morning, or less, by using "Same day service". As long as all the paperwork was correct, there would be no problems. This year the whole hell broke loose ...

[nord121]

Hello all,

I’ve been following this thread for a while now and am just about to complete my PPL under Austro Control. issuing me an Austrian PPL.

My intention is to move straight onto ATPL’s and it seems the sensible thing to do is do them with an EASA member state, BBS are offering this from the UK however my main choice is probably Bartolini air... regardless is this a good idea for the following reson? If I get my ATPL from an EASA country and then after Brexit do not have the right to live or work in that country (British National). Would that not mean the EASA ATPL’s have been for nothing? On the other hand assuming you gain employment with an airline in the EU you can then live there.

Then what if I wanted to fly in the UK again has it been announced if it’s possible to transfer EASA to CAA?

I plead ignorance but there’s a lot to take in here and I’m trying to make the most informed decision I possible can. If you were to begin your ATPL exams next year where would you go?

Cheers in advance.

[Denti]

Hello all,

I’ve been following this thread for a while now and am just about to complete my PPL under Austro Control. issuing me an Austrian PPL.

My intention is to move straight onto ATPL’s and it seems the sensible thing to do is do them with an EASA member state, BBS are offering this from the UK however my main choice is probably Bartolini air... regardless is this a good idea for the following reson? If I get my ATPL from an EASA country and then after Brexit do not have the right to live or work in that country (British National). Would that not mean the EASA ATPL’s have been for nothing? On the other hand assuming you gain employment with an airline in the EU you can then live there.

Then what if I wanted to fly in the UK again has it been announced if it’s possible to transfer EASA to CAA?

I plead ignorance but there’s a lot to take in here and I’m trying to make the most informed decision I possible can. If you were to begin your ATPL exams next year where would you go?

Cheers in advance.

If you do not already reside in an EU country by the time the UK leaves (either at the end of the transition period or next march) you won't have the right to live and work in the EU. Come to think of it, in the case of an unorderly brexit you won't have the right anyway. However, a caveat that many miss, even if you have the right to live and work in an EU country, you do not have the right to live and work in any other EU country, only in the one where you have residency as you are a third country citizen, pretty much the same as any refugee that got granted to reside. Unless the UK changes their stance on freedom of movement of course. Which will get messy with the orange outfit as their UK national pilots cannot move from one countries anymore, same for the irish one i guess.

As far as i know the UK CAA will accept EASA licenses to transfer them into UK ones, but who knows how that will change?

[boeingdriver777]

Maybe a small reprieve coming for 9 months in the event of a No Deal. Just need the defination of “Certain Aviation Safety Licenses”

Transport

The Commission has today adopted two measures that will avoid full interruption of air traffic between the EU and the UK in the event of no deal. These measures will only ensure basic connectivity and in no means replicate the significant advantages of membership of the Single European Sky. This is subject to the UK conferring equivalent rights to EU air carriers, as well as the UK ensuring conditions of fair competition.

A proposal for a Regulation to ensure temporarily (for 12 months) the provision of certain air services between the UK and the EU.
A proposal for a Regulation to extend temporarily (for 9 months) the validity of certain aviation safety licences.

[Alex Whittingham]

The detail seems to be in these documents which I cannot find:

v Commission proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on common rules ensuring basic air connectivity with regard to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the Union (COM(2018) 893 final).
vi Commission proposal for a Regulation of the European Parliament and of the Council on certain aspects of aviation safety with regard to the withdrawal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland from the Union (COM(2018) 894 final).

[BONES_]

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - Brexit: European Commission implements ?no-deal? Contingency Action Plan in specific sectors (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm)

assuming “flight crew licences” can be somehow tagged along, looks like a 9-month grace period which I queried somewhere on this thread awhile ago.

Hopefully, now that some legal framework exist, EASA will give further guidance.

[Milutin]

Aviation – safety 12.
What does the Commission's proposal on aviation safety concretely include?

In case of no deal, the Commission’s proposal for a Regulation:

*extends for a limited period of time – 9 months – the validity of certain certificates (in particular type certificates) that can only be issued by the European Union Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) on the basis of certificates issued by the UK once it is a third country.
*ensures that parts and appliances, for which a certificate of conformity was issued by a UK company before the withdrawal date, can still be used in and on aircraft although the company that issued the certificate is no longer entitled to issue new certificates.

[EastMids]

While seemingly some respite is being provided on licences, there are some other restrictions:

...the total seasonal capacity to be provided by UK air carriers for routes between the United Kingdom and each Member State shall not exceed the total number of frequencies operated by those carriers on those routes during respectively the IATA winter and summer seasons of the year of 2018.
Seemingly no frequency growth allowed next year - not that its likely to be needed? This would also seem to prohibit the opening of new routes.

The Member States shall neither negotiate nor enter into any bilateral agreements or arrangements with the United Kingdom on matters falling within the scope of this Regulation. They shall not otherwise grant UK air carriers, in connection with air transport, any rights other than those granted by this Regulation.
And no back-door one-to-one deals.

UK air carriers shall submit the operational plans, programmes and schedules for air services to the competent authorities of each Member State concerned, for their approval. Any such submission shall be made at least 30 days prior to the start of the operations.

[512]

A question, as a no deal Brexit is been discussed more seriously. What will Ryanair do on 29th March 2019 at 23:00?

512

[eu01]

...will cancel most of UK flights departing after 2pm and commence the AC translocation to Ireland and Continental Europe?

[sewushr]

No, because the provisions of COM(2018)893 will allow the continuation of flights between the UK and EU at existing frequencies. That's assuming the UK insists on the same terms.

So no increase in frequency between UK and any of the EU27 States by any carrier, based on S18 and W18 capacity. That's how I read it

[EastMids]

No, because the provisions of COM(2018)893 will allow the continuation of flights between the UK and EU at existing frequencies. That's assuming the UK insists on the same terms.

So no increase in frequency between UK and any of the EU27 States by any carrier, based on S18 and W18 capacity. That's how I read it

Indeed... quote: "...the capacity which United Kingdom air carriers will be allowed to offer is frozen at pre-Brexit levels expressed in number of flights ("frequencies")." I presume the UK will reciprocate (retaliate?), meaning 3/4 of 2019 could be no growth in terms of the overall UK-EU market.

More worryingly: "UK air carriers may... perform scheduled and non-scheduled international air transport services for passengers, combination of passengers and cargo and all-cargo services between any pair of points of which one is situated in the territory of the United Kingdom and the other one is situated in the territory of the Union"

No mention of UK carriers being able to operate intra-European services in the style offered by bmi. Likewise by reciprocation if Ryanair has any UK domestic routes left - can't remember whether it does? Maybe an impact on Stobart Air's proposed Newuay-Southend too. Possibly a problem for West Atlantic's G-reg 737s in Europe, and the SE-reg ATPs operating solely within the UK.

[rightstuffer]

Dont forget that individual countries, finding their aviation freedoms suddenly restricted, may not agree with the EU dictats. Highly likely to ignore and just maintain existing protocols while disputing.

[Skyjob]

I presume the UK will reciprocate (retaliate?), meaning 3/4 of 2019 could be no growth in terms of the overall UK-EU market. 100% correct, but UK people voted for this or even worse outcome (eg no deal at all thus grounding flights or nil reciprocation)
No mention of UK carriers being able to operate intra-European services in the style offered by bmi. Likewise by reciprocation if Ryanair has any UK domestic routes left - can't remember whether it does? Maybe an impact on Stobart Air's proposed Newuay-Southend too. Possibly a problem for West Atlantic's G-reg 737s in Europe, and the SE-reg ATPs operating solely within the UK.
Ryanair has launched UK subsidiary for the event so domestic routes can remain to be facilitated. Depending agreement other aircraft may join its UK register to enable UK-EU flights departing from UK afterwards. Worse case and no deal emerges, then aircraft can be relocated to EU markets.
BMI sadly under NO circumstance will be able to offer intra European routes, this comes with EU membership and thus is not allowed under any foreseen agreement when Brexit is triggered.
Stobart Air will have issues with intra UK routes, unless it acts as Ryanair has done, using a UK AOC, or continue operating by routing aircraft through an out of UK location (IE?)
West Atlantic as per BMI, unless aircraft are flying to/from UK on each flight... SE-reg aircraft no intra UK flights...

Sad state of affairs, especially to think people wanted this to happen...

[wiggy]

Dont forget that individual countries, finding their aviation freedoms suddenly restricted, may not agree with the EU dictats. Highly likely to ignore and just maintain existing protocols while disputing.

In the context of what was announced yesterday which airlines in the EU27 do you think will find their aviation freedoms suddenly restricted?

[homonculus]

Why are you so certain the UK will reciprocate? We could simply maintain the status quo, especially if it doesnt effect UK businesses. We do not have to increase any paperwork or checks at borders, we do not have to change any rules nor stop any current practices unless WE wish to. Now I accept that is the logical way forward, and politicians seem to lack logic at present but.....

[sixchannel]

100% correct, but UK people voted for this . . .


Sad state of affairs, especially to think people wanted this to happen...

As they say, be careful what you wish for!

[bringbackthe80s]

All of this is extremely academic, I STRONGLY doubt the MPs will let a no deal happen. Just a bunch of free news for a while, nothing to see here

[FiveGirlKit]

European Commission - PRESS RELEASES - Press release - Brexit: European Commission implements ?no-deal? Contingency Action Plan in specific sectors (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-18-6851_en.htm)

assuming “flight crew licences” can be somehow tagged along, looks like a 9-month grace period which I queried somewhere on this thread awhile ago.

Hopefully, now that some legal framework exist, EASA will give further guidance.

Unfortunately it seems that "certain aviation licenses" does not cover any personnel licenses, but rather it covers design certificates and approvals held in the UK which need to be maintained temporarily to safeguard the EU aviation system.

I guess this contingency regulation doesn't include individual licenses because the EC assumes that individuals should have 'prepared for all possible scenarios, assessed relevant risks and planned their response to mitigate them' by swapping their license to EU country.

Here are the certificates and approvals that will continue to be recognized for 9 months https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/894-aviation-aspects-annex.pdf

[Ian W]

All of this is extremely academic, I STRONGLY doubt the MPs will let a no deal happen. Just a bunch of free news for a while, nothing to see here

You misunderstand the (Cough) 'decision making process' (Cough) of bureaucrats, politicians and weak management. The can is continually kicked down the road and ad hoc decisions are made by businesses and staff at working level on what should happen, the deadline passes with ad hoc solutions in place and the 'decision makers' say look there is already a working solution it will be disruptive to back out of that we will reluctantly support it. This is the art of blame avoidance - the politicians didn't make the decision on what to do - the ad hoc solution was developed by people who had to come up with a quick fix solution. So nobody can blame the politicians for what is happening. As the deadline approaches the politicians are less and less likely to make any meaningful decisions. Indeed, with the deadline a mere 12 weeks away it is really too late to make any decisions that require any constructive thought.

Remember these people are politicians because they can't make it in private business.

[207592]

Does all this correspondence mean that an EASA licence becomes invalid on 31 March? How so? And what of aircraft certified by EASA?

[Hussar 54]

Indeed... quote: "...the capacity which United Kingdom air carriers will be allowed to offer is frozen at pre-Brexit levels expressed in number of flights ("frequencies")." I presume the UK will reciprocate (retaliate?), meaning 3/4 of 2019 could be no growth in terms of the overall UK-EU market.

More worryingly: "UK air carriers may... perform scheduled and non-scheduled international air transport services for passengers, combination of passengers and cargo and all-cargo services between any pair of points of which one is situated in the territory of the United Kingdom and the other one is situated in the territory of the Union"

No mention of UK carriers being able to operate intra-European services in the style offered by bmi. Likewise by reciprocation if Ryanair has any UK domestic routes left - can't remember whether it does? Maybe an impact on Stobart Air's proposed Newuay-Southend too. Possibly a problem for West Atlantic's G-reg 737s in Europe, and the SE-reg ATPs operating solely within the UK.

Happy to corrected, but if that's the case then how about all O'Leary's EI Reg aircraft based in the UK - do they have to become G Reg to fly to / from UK into the EU ?

[512]

Quote.

Ryanair has launched UK subsidiary for the event so domestic routes can remain to be facilitated. Depending agreement other aircraft may join its UK register to enable UK-EU flights departing from UK afterwards. Worse case and no deal emerges, then aircraft can be relocated to EU markets.
BMI sadly under NO circumstance will be able to offer intra European routes, this comes with EU membership and thus is not allowed under any foreseen agreement when Brexit is triggered.

Please can you explain how Ryanair can retain its fifth freedom rights, yet British airlines will lose theirs just because the EU says so. Don't air routes around the world come under the Chicago Convention, which the EU is not even a member?

512

[Alex Whittingham]

Article 9 of document 843 says "Certificates of airworthiness, certificates of competency and licences issued or rendered valid by the United Kingdom and still in force shall be recognised as valid by the Member States for the purpose of the operation of air transport services by UK air carriers under this Regulation, provided that such certificates or licences were issued or rendered valid pursuant to, and in conformity with, as a minimum, the relevant international standards established under the Convention." Which, from the point of view of flight crew licenses only says to me that UK issued licenses, ratings etc., will be accepted as valid when operating for UK carriers in the EU.

Document 844 does not relate to flight crew licensing, as you say, apart from Article 5 which says: "By way of derogation from Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/20119 and Commission Regulation (EU) No 1321/201410, the competent authorities of the Member States or the Agency, as the case may be, shall take account of the examinations taken in training organisations subject to oversight by the competent authority of the United Kingdom prior to the date of application referred to in the second sub-paragraph of Article 10(2) of this Regulation, as if they had been taken with a training organisation subject to the oversight of the competent authority of a Member State." I'm not sure what this means, nor what the "examinations taken in training organisations" could possibly be.

[darkbarly]

AW, derogation means that, although UK could become a 3rd country, it will be exempt from 1178 and 1321 and exam results shall (must) will still be recogmised as if they had been taken in an EASA country. Assume (?) this covers the ATPL papers if they have been started but not completed by march amongst others.

[kaikohe76]

There appear to be many`experts` including me posting on this Prune thread.
Just remember folks, those of you who still can that is, in the years way before the UK joining the EU, UK aircraft & crews operated into Europe & vice versa, why could this not continue after the EU withdrawl.
Just remember, there is still a lot of the world out there, outside the EU & despite the prophets of doom saying otherwise, the world did not stop with the millenium, it will not stop when the UK leaves the EU.
Finally, yes the Commonwealth is still out there, try us again, you might find us all are still friends.

[ZeBedie]

Thank you Kaikohe and though we were mostly unaware of it at the time, some of us are ashamed of what happened to Commonwealth farmers in 1973. Maybe we can redeem ourselves.

[austrian71]

There appear to be many`experts` including me posting on this Prune thread.
Just remember folks, those of you who still can that is, in the years way before the UK joining the EU, UK aircraft & crews operated into Europe & vice versa, why could this not continue after the EU withdrawl.
Just remember, there is still a lot of the world out there, outside the EU & despite the prophets of doom saying otherwise, the world did not stop with the millenium, it will not stop when the UK leaves the EU.
Finally, yes the Commonwealth is still out there, try us again, you might find us all are still friends.

Brexit is Brexit - the cherry picker dreamers will get their lessons learnt, its gonna to be a "lead by example" action and yes, I think its good to show the rest of EU what happens if an exit starts the mess up. So far small piece of advise: THE EU has no fear about uncontrolled exit, highly recommend to look for an EASA licence if possible.

[Skyjob]

Please can you explain how Ryanair can retain its fifth freedom rights, yet British airlines will lose theirs just because the EU says so. Don't air routes around the world come under the Chicago Convention, which the EU is not even a member?512
You are incorrect in your assumption.
Ryanair is making changes to its operation model to ensure flights in UK under fifth freedom rights, if those rights are abolished, are maintained.
The UK AOC allows for UK flights in such case, EI AOC will then not be used on those routes.

British airlines are able to do the same, by setting up EU subsidiaries, as easyJet has done.

[Bloated Stomach]

A question regarding Brexit and UK EASA license.

I am currently employed by a UK airline and have been told that I will be required to hold a UK license post Brexit.

Would it it be possible to change my UK license to another EASA state such as Ireland and also keep a UK license as well?

[SFIM]

As I understand it “today”, you would have to change your UK EASA licence now for another countries EASA licence (time is very short now as it has to complete before 29 March)
then you would have to wait until 29 March then apply for a UK licence on the basis of your foreign EASA one (who knows how long that would take)
this could potentially lead to a break in service.
As I understand its not possible to have a EASA licence and a UK licence (or even apply for a UK one) until we have left EASA.

[W Smith]

I agree with the reply from SFIM. However, the CAA has said that EU licences will remain valid for the UK for at least 2 years after Brexit, so perhaps check again with your employer.
The CAA has said that those who transfer can also have a UK FCL licence after Brexit.
The FAQ on their website says:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If I transfer my licence to another EASA member state, can I be issued with a UK licence after March 29 2019
Yes, this process is under review. Further advice will be added to this microsite when available.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The CAA's EU Microsite is quite well hidden.
You need to google "CAA Exit" to find the main page.

Then well down the page, buried in the text, you will find the word 'microsite' as a link, which takes you to the detailed stuff, including the FAQ

One wonders why it is so well hidden. Perhaps the CAA is concerned about losing control and revenue if the majority of pilots and organisations transfer to other member States.

There is a potential trap for you and any colleagues here. If you don't transfer you licence to another EU State and then in a few month's or years from now, your employer decides to become an EU airline (by moving their head office abroad), you will have to get a Part-FCL licence to continue to fly with them. According to current EU rules that will mean taking your exams again. And you would also need to do that if you wanted to leave your current job to fly for any EU operator. There is an article on this in the current issue of Flight Training News - and on their website. In your position I would draw that to the attention of your employer and ask them to think again.

[slast]

https://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/commercial-pilots/

Q. When is the latest I could apply to transfer my licence to another EASA member state to get my licence in time for 29 March 2019?
A. "The CAA has no control over the issuance process of other EASA Member States, we therefore recommend that you contact the proposed NAA directly on these matters.
To enable the CAA time to complete its part in the licence transfer process, the CAA advises that application forms from the NAA need to be submitted to the CAA by January 1 2019. We will endeavour to transfer any application received after this date, but the process may not be completed by 29 March 2019."

Note that it says the forms need to be from the NAA not the applicant so that deadline is passed now.

[SFIM]

I can reassure that under current procedures, there is no break in your licensing continuity as you switch from one to the other - your current licence remains valid until the point at which you have your new licence in your hand - I had this confirmed by the CAA.

When talking about a break in service I was thinking more about company checks such as OPC and line check which will presumably have to be done again as they would be based on a different licence ??

[Reverserbucket]

As I understand its not possible to have a EASA licence and a UK licence (or even apply for a UK one) until we have left EASA.
It is - I hold both.

So far small piece of advise: THE EU has no fear about uncontrolled exit, highly recommend to look for an EASA licence if possible.
Outwardly no, the institutional view appears to reflect that, however internally I understand there is considerable concern about a no-deal exit and hence the proposed regulation. Many in the EC and dependant institutions have believed that the UK will never completely sever ties with Europe and indeed the UK Government has certainly given that impression since Article 50 was invoked, but a discussion I had last week with a trusted UK aviation manufacturing industry management source suggests that this political wavering might be a strategic ploy to force the hand of the EC and bring them to the negotiating table with a view to leveraging more favourable terms for the UK. From the perspective of the aerospace industry, and leaving the soft assets aside, how many UK manufactured and certified components are flying around in or hanging from EASA registered aircraft flying today and for the next many years?

[nebojsar]

Did anyone got recently response from IAA? I sent my papers at end of November and still nothing. I know it was holiday season but 20+ work days seems really long.

[para_trooper]

Did anyone got recently response from IAA? I sent my papers at end of November and still nothing. I know it was holiday season but 20+ work days seems really long.
The IAA received my application the 10th December and had an email yesterday (5th January) from the CAA saying that they have received the form (155) from the IAA and that the turnaround time is 36 working days. I'm not sure if it's standard procedure to send this email as it was encompassed with a previous email to do with my IR(R).

[nebojsar]

Thanks for info. That means that two, two and a half calendar month will be average for endorsment in license. Just to hope that my prospect employer will wait one more month on me. I supposed to start my occ already. Most anoying thing is that i received no response from them for all this period except generic mail. I even dont know if my paperwork is ok.

[Old King Coal]

https://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/commercial-pilots/

Q. When is the latest I could apply to transfer my licence to another EASA member state to get my licence in time for 29 March 2019?
A. "The CAA has no control over the issuance process of other EASA Member States, we therefore recommend that you contact the proposed NAA directly on these matters.
To enable the CAA time to complete its part in the licence transfer process, the CAA advises that application forms from the NAA need to be submitted to the CAA by January 1 2019. We will endeavour to transfer any application received after this date, but the process may not be completed by 29 March 2019."

Note that it says the forms need to be from the NAA not the applicant so that deadline is passed now.

And the f'ing UK CAA were closed from Friday 21 December 2018 until Wednesday 2 January 2019, you couldn't make it up!

[fly744]

Happy new year to all,
I am seeking for guidance on “paperwork” in order to transfer my UK ATPL into either the NL CAA or the IAA.

for starting the SOLI process the following forms need to be send to the UK CAA:
1.SRG2150 and the fee is £45
2.SRG1202(SOLI) with or without the copies of my last medical ecg/audiogram?
3.SRG1201 for paying the fee of £75 for the SRG1202 SOLI form.
4.Cerified copy of UK ATPL no needed since there is no any entrance to my license by examiner since issued by CAA?
5. do you recommend to send all the above by post?

thank you.

[Humpmedumpme]

You seem to have it summed up and are basically asking PPRuNe whether they trust Royal Mail....Is that the question?

[old,not bold]

Followers of the Brexit vs UK Aviation Industry saga may be interested in this article about a proposal to extend Type Certificates of UK aircraft by 9 months (https://www.mro-network.com/manufacturing-distribution/europe-prepares-limited-reprieve-uk-aviation), ie until the end for 2019. This has been referred to already in this thread, but it gives a slightly different angle.

Interestingly, it seems that the EU Commission/EASA is taking the lead in rescuing the UK from the disaster it has created for itself, probably because the UK CAA as presently constituted and managed couldn't run an FBO in the Outer Hebrides. (I heard a detailed and horrendous tale yesterday about the incompetence, attitude and behaviour of a Surveyor, over the last 2 months. Unfortunately such tales are now commonplace.)

[SFIM]

Mr Fly744,

the forms on the UK side can all be sent by email.

i sent the forms to the IAA by post.

time is very short now, as you are already past the UK CAA deadline to be sure it completes.

[fly744]

Thanks for the replies guys. Are the forms correct or did I miss something?

[Tomasz]

Can somebody please tell me how long they had to wait to get their Paperwork processed by the UK CAA after they received it. Thanks

[Tomasz]

Hey hope somebody can clarify something for me, I have a UK ATPL but a Polish class 1 medical, the initial medical I had was a UK one, but for the last 10 years I have been sending the medical exam records myself to the medical department in the UK to have on record. My question is I requested a change of license to the Polish one and sent out form SRG2150 and SRG1202 my doc 155 from Polish is already there, do I still need to send the SOLI to the Polish CAA? Uk caa says

“If you have a current non-UK medical certificate, we require confirmation from the Medical Department of the EASAmember state that issued your initial medical certificate that you have no serious medical problems”

which was the uk and the beginning. Thanks for your help

[Jimmy Hoffa Rocks]

Please excuse if this was posted before.

Quote:
I can reassure that under current procedures, there is no break in your licensing continuity as you switch from one to the other - your current licence remains valid until the point at which you have your new licence in your hand - I had this confirmed by the CAA.


I am converting my UK CAA to the Spanish EASA this will take a while, and not completed till after March 29

Just to please reconfirm, by another source someone who has contacted the CAA, that during the conversion process, no invalidity of my medical will occur, due to the process. Of course providing I keep my license up to date. Where is this written if one has the link?
Please confirm that there will be no invalidation.

Thanks a lot in advance.

[zerograv]

Quote:
I can reassure that under current procedures, there is no break in your licensing continuity as you switch from one to the other - your current licence remains valid until the point at which you have your new licence in your hand - I had this confirmed by the CAA.


Quote is correct !

-You go to AESA and you tell them ... "I have an UK and I want to have a Spanish"
-Forms to be completed, for the AESA, and for the UK CAA
-Fees to be payed
-AESA do the checks that they need to do. AESA will contact the UK CAA, and the UK CAA will provide the info about your UK licence to AESA.
-when happy all is OK, AESA will tell you, give me your UK licence, and I give you a Spanish licence

It has to be this way because you can not have 2 EASA licences. You surrender the one that you have, and receive another one.

Don't understand what you mean by: "Please confirm that there will be no invalidation."

[SFIM]

Mr Hoffa

I am converting my UK CAA to the Spanish EASA this will take a while, and not completed till after March 29

It has to complete by 29 March, or it doesn’t complete at all (unless the Brexit is delayed of course)

[Aso]

probably because the UK CAA as presently constituted and managed couldn't run an FBO in the Outer Hebrides. Funny but unfortunately true :\

[fairflyer]

So, post Parlimentary vote last night and about 40 sitting days before March 29th, what are the bets on current anticipated arrangements for:

EASA recognising UK certificates for nine months after March 29th?
Issues with UK carrier ownership being sub-50% EU27 shares?
Removal of 5th Freedom rights (and sixth, seventh etc.)?

[asmith474]

Looking for some advice on what to do. Currently I have 1st class medical from the UK that expires in February. I am looking to start my PPL/CPL flight training in Poland.

Would it be better to just wait until the UK medical expires and re do a first class initial medical in Poland and get all my license's from there or is there another process I must go through? Any advice here is greatly appreciated.

[Radgirl]

My understanding is that you cannot undergo a second initial class 1 if you have at any time held a class 1. Even after Brexit you will have held an EASA class 1 so you cant redo an initial. You can renew. Transferring your medical before Brexit is straight forward. Allowing it to lapse and then trying to renew based on records from a non EASA country, in a country that often has its own interpretation of EU law, seems full of risk. So I would renew before 29 March. Whether you do so in Poland or the UK depends on whether you think Poland offers any advantages to you.

[asmith474]

Looking for some advice here with people in a similar situation. I have a class 1 medical from the UK that expires soon but I haven't as of yet started any flight training. I'm looking to do all my training in Poland. Would it be wiser to switch to a polish medical and get a polish license rather than a UK one despite the fact I come from the UK ?

[sellbydate]

Just a reminder of the EU Preparedness Notices on Air Transport and Aviation Safety:

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/file_import/air_transport_en.pdf

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/file_import/aviation_safety_en.pdf

Pretty grim reading once it sinks in.

We either leave EASA on the 29th March at 11:00pm as things stand, or we leave EASA at the end of a transition period - subject to whether we ever reach a concensus on a Withdrawal Agreement.

'Brace, Brace, Brace...'

[SINGAPURCANAC]

It is logic, nothing else could be expected. For me it is unbelievable that people in UK don't know it before vote or in government ,parliament these days???

[cwatters]

I expect most of you already have international driving licenses but I saw an article that said you might also need a green card in Europe in the event of no-deal.

[chockablock]

Looking for some advice here with people in a similar situation. I have a class 1 medical from the UK that expires soon but I haven't as of yet started any flight training. I'm looking to do all my training in Poland. Would it be wiser to switch to a polish medical and get a polish license rather than a UK one despite the fact I come from the UK ?

It depends who you want to issue your license. You could still go to Poland and sit the skills test with a UK CAA examiner. Or you can transfer your records to Poland and get a Polish license. I had my initial Class 1 in Poland and transferred it here to the UK and I will have a UK issued license when I'm finished.

I must add the process was a bit of a ball ache. Not many people in Poland speak English and you should bare this in mind if you have any issues and have to communicate with the Polish CAA.

[hunterboy]

Worth getting in ahead of the rush...seem to remember they cost around £9 at the P.O.

[infrequentflyer789]

Worth getting in ahead of the rush...seem to remember they cost around £9 at the P.O.

IDPs are £8 from RAC (haven't checked AA price) - but only till 31 Jan, then £5.50 from P.O.

P.O. web site says you can defer start date by up to 3 months, so may be worth getting one now to start on Brexit day - they only have 12m validity.

On the other hand, no one really knows when Brexit day is now...

[asmith474]

does anyone know if I can start my PPL training while in the process of changing my medical through the soli form. My UK caa medical expires on the 6th of February so i'm looking to transfer to the irish IAA. But my ppl classes are starting in about 2 months. Would it be problem to start the transfer in the middle of my training ?

[SFIM]

Anyone know how long IAA SOLI licence conversions are taking right now ?
the IAA received my application on 10 Dec and the UK CAA took the £45 on the 8th Jan.

[737275]

Sent my application to the IAA on Nov 27th, they contacted the CAA on Dec 11th. The CAA didn’t send my Doc155 etc to the IAA untill Jan 21st, after I called and asked about the progress of my application. Apparently the CAA missed the request from the IAA, I’m hoping to hear from the IAA sometime soon.

[Alex Whittingham]

This is consistent with conversations I have had with other licensing Authorities who say the delays are all at the UK CAA end. Because of the delays some Authorities are interpreting the process as able to be completed after 29 March provided the change of SOLI application is received by them before that date.

[Good Business Sense]

Sent my application to the IAA on Nov 27th, they contacted the CAA on Dec 11th. The CAA didn’t send my Doc155 etc to the IAA untill Jan 21st, after I called and asked about the progress of my application. Apparently the CAA missed the request from the IAA, I’m hoping to hear from the IAA sometime soon.

Did it a year ago - took the CAA five months !!! Chaos in there for the last several years.

[SFIM]

When I called the UK CAA medical dept a couple of weeks ago, they said that basically i was “guaranteed” to get the IAA licence, as the UK CAA had recieved the request before Xmas.
i got the sense that they have some informal agreement between authorities

[Tomasz]

Do you know how long it took the UK CAA to sent the forms back to the aviation authority you want to change your license to, after they took the money?

[LNAV VNAV -]

Do you know how long it took the UK CAA to sent the forms back to the aviation authority you want to change your license to, after they took the money?

For me, the CAA received the request for Doc 155 by the IAA on the 18th of December, I was charged the 45 pounds the next day and I was informed by the CAA that the license verification was sent today to the IAA.

[SFIM]

Do you know how long it took the UK CAA to sent the forms back to the aviation authority you want to change your license to, after they took the money?

i was told today by the CAA that my file is imminently to be emailed to the IAA, the IAA received my original form on 10 Dec and made the request to the CAA on the 14 Dec, who then took the £45 on the 8th Jan

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Got to ask but did you submit the licence verification request via the IAA or the CAA ? The IAA has sent Doc 155 to the CAA but I do not remember seeing that I needed to ask the CAA for a licence verification ? Have I missed something ?

[citabria06g]

FWIW:

20-09-2018 I send transfer papers to UK CAA + Irish IAA.

02-10-2018 IAA charges EUR 250 to credit card.

09-10-2018 CAA charges GBP 45 to credit card.

23-10-2018 CAA contacts me via email because they want to take another payment, but have already destroyed the form with my card details. They say I should have sent two copies of that form, one for licensing and one for medical! I pointed out that it's one application, and that if it involves multiple departments they should share info before destroying forms... they wouldn't listen. Gave them card details over the phone, new payment of GBP 77 taken same day.

27-11-2018 IAA contacts me via email saying they received medical info from UK. However CAA had written that I took an ECG in 2009, but did not have any ECG records attached. IAA asks me to contact my doctor to forward ECG records. I replied that I never took an ECG (why would I, not required for Class 2 holders under the age of 40) so this is a CAA mistake. IAA employee forwards this to medical assessor.

04-01-2019 I write an email to follow up on progress. Reply from IAA same day, ECG discrepancy resolved and licence almost ready.

10-01-2019 Irish licence ready, can be exchanged with old licence either in person or also via DHL without going to Dublin.

Thank goodness for Irish common sense, I really thought that ECG thing would stall the whole process! I'm sure if it was the other way around the CAA would have demanded authenticated proof of the exam never having taken place.

[SFIM]

Got to ask but did you submit the licence verification request via the IAA or the CAA ? The IAA has sent Doc 155 to the CAA but I do not remember seeing that I needed to ask the CAA for a licence verification ? Have I missed something ?

The RPPL-F-100E which is sent direct to the IAA by post.

SRG 1202 - sent to CAA, transfer of medical records with separate payment form SRG 1201.

SRG 2150 - sent to CAA, application to release information to IAA for the SOLI change.

SRG 1202/1201 - [email protected]
SRG 2150 - [email protected]

[ATOguy]

I think you’ve confused the issue if you sent them a 1202. That’s the form to transfer to the UK, not from it!

[PPRuNeUser0215]

Yes to be clear, I m leaving the UK CAA to the IAA. SFIM'S reply seem to be the other way around.

[SFIM]

I think you’ve confused the issue if you sent them a 1202. That’s the form to transfer to the UK, not from it!

Yes to be clear, I m leaving the UK CAA to the IAA. SFIM'S reply seem to be the other way around.

my reply is the correct way round, i have just done it successfully, the wording on the top of the 1202 is confusing unfortunately.
if you look at page 2 you specify there what you want to do (to IAA from CAA)

[PPRuNeUser0215]

...if you look at page 2 you specify there what you want to do (to IAA from CAA)

Indeed. Thanks for pointing this subtlety ;).

Do we really need to send a certified copy of our UK licence to the people who have issued it ( the CAA ) ? SRG 2150 cannot be done only by email ?

[captplaystation]

You have to send a certified copy only if there have been entries on it subsequent to issue, which there obviously will be if you have had it for more than one year and your TR is current.

[PPRuNeUser0215]

I see. Cheers.

[citabria06g]

Just to make things even more interesting, the help text for the State of Transfer TO/FROM boxes (visible in AdobeDC & Edge) is inverted.... to is from and from is to!

:E :E :E :E :E :E :E :E :E :E :E

I ignored this and went by what column B says.


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/607x197/srg1202fubar_322178dae38f6ce47522406049cf3454c5598c04.png

[asmith474]

Hey everyone looking for some advice. About to start my PPL training in Poland which means i will finish with a UK ppl license. From what they told me in Poland, is that i don't have to worry about making a transfer of my license until later on during the CPL stage. Is this recommended ? Or should i start my transfer to the polish/irish caa during my PPL training.

Lastly as a UK national would it be better to transfer to the irish or polish authority or simply wait until further developments in brexit. Keep in mind I'm only at the PPL stage.
thanks

[180Knots]

Hello guys. If the BREXIT will end up with a deal, will we be able to fly non-UK a/c ?

[Wickerbill]

The snag is Knots, until there is a deal nobody f**king knows!
Nothing is agreed until its all agreed and very few know what the detail is.

[SFIM]

Hello guys. If the BREXIT will end up with a deal, will we be able to fly non-UK a/c ?

hello Mr Knots, I thought this question was quite clear, ie if there is a deal we should remain in EASA until at least the end of the transition period, 31 dec 2020, and hopefully after that.

[737 CL]

Hi, Just a question, I have done my Medical Certificate expiring at the end of this year and I am transferring my license from Uk to Ireland, My question is, during the transfer my ECG is going to be expired but my medical is expiring at the end of this year. Do I have any problem as a require of an ECG even with my 1 class certificate current?

[asmith474]

To anyone who has filled the the RPPL-F-100M form could you help me out. On section 2. For the AME Name and location would I need to put the details of my first UK initial class 1 or the details for where I did my latest renewal of the class 1 in Poland?
thank you

[SFIM]

The latest medical, so they can liase with your AME if required, the UK CAA bothered mine for a ECG, which I guess they must have lost.

oh and today the IAA said they are ready to pull the trigger, just have to send my current licence / medical to them now before they will send the new one.

[asmith474]

Does anyone know if payments to the IAA can be made online. I dont really like the idea of sending all my card details through the post. Has anyone here managed to make a payment through another method.

[Old King Coal]

Update just now from UK CAA:

Q) If I transfer my licence to another EASA member state, can I be issued with a UK licence after March 29 2019?

A) Yes, this process is under review; the CAA is developing a simplified application and validation procedure for recent holders of UK-issued Part FCLs which will accept applications from 1 July 2019.

So basically, UK License holders will be able to transfer out of the UK CAA over to some other EU EASA NAA and then, some weeks after Brexit, apply to the UK CAA to get their UK Licenses back, thereafter holding both a EASA and a UK CAA license (subject to the usual provisos in respect of medical's and current type / sim checks for each NAA).

https://info.caa.co.uk/eu-exit/commercial-pilots/?mc_cid=ae7973284e&mc_eid=141a30f6b7

[Old King Coal]

For a fee...

Of course... it is after all the CAA ('Cash And Aggravation' or 'Cancel All Aviating'). :}

That said, one wonders if EASA will offer the same facility (i.e. to return) to those who've maybe moved their licenses over to the UK CAA?

[Skyjob]

That said, one wonders if EASA will offer the same facility (i.e. to return) to those who've maybe moved their licenses over to the UK CAA?
Unlikely:
- the UK decided to leave the level playing field;
- the UK wants to continue making use of the level playing field it created in days gone by;
- the UK does not have (as unable to while still in level playing field) new procedures for current level playing field players;
- what would be CAA gain in offering this facility? Continued flights beyond the ever so close Brexit date, until new procedures can be established.
- what would be EASA gain in doing so? Nothing...

Personally, I do think all EASA licence holders should be offered the opportunity to get an additional new UK licence, not just those holding UK issued EASA licences or operating UK registered aircraft.
This to ensure all current pilots working in UK on non-UK registered aircraft retain access to their local aviation market.

[Denti]

Of course... it is after all the CAA ('Cash And Aggravation' or 'Cancel All Aviating'). :}

That said, one wonders if EASA will offer the same facility (i.e. to return) to those who've maybe moved their licenses over to the UK CAA?

One has to question: does EASA offer that to any other third country? I don't think so, therefore it does seem unlikely. After all, the UK wants to diverge from, not converge with european rules and regulations, that is the whole purpose of leaving.

[fdgolf]

And one wonders:

Why will an EASA UK issued license be not valid after a no-deal Brexit right away? After all it complies with all EASA rules...
Different story is to revalidate/renew it, or add new type ratings, but in the meantime should be legal.

Cheers

[Denti]

And one wonders:

Why will an EASA UK issued license be not valid after a no-deal Brexit right away? After all it complies with all EASA rules...
Different story is to revalidate/renew it, or add new type ratings, but in the meantime should be legal.

Cheers

Well, because the authority having oversight of that license is no longer under the authority of EASA of course. As the UK wants to diverge from EU regulations, and without a withdrawal agreement that regulates how stuff will continue after the brexit deal, it can do so immediately and actually does so immediately as any mention of EASA in the relevant copied over laws will vanish, there is no assurance that the CAA as the NAA overseeing that license still complies with EASA rules past the 29th of march. The EU and its agencies are very much rule based organizations, which is something many people constantly underestimate in its importance.

[fdgolf]

Well, because the authority having oversight of that license is no longer under the authority of EASA of course. As the UK wants to diverge from EU regulations, and without a withdrawal agreement that regulates how stuff will continue after the brexit deal, it can do so immediately and actually does so immediately as any mention of EASA in the relevant copied over laws will vanish, there is no assurance that the CAA as the NAA overseeing that license still complies with EASA rules past the 29th of march. The EU and its agencies are very much rule based organizations, which is something many people constantly underestimate in its importance.

Denti'
Thanks for your clear reply, I do agree with it from the legal point of view, but do think about two words I said: right away. Where does right away begin or end? March 31st, 00:01? A week later? 2 weeks later...?
I would say whenever a legal change on licensing regulation happens, or whenever the particular license needs to be revalidated, whatever happens first!

Cheers

[Denti]

Denti'
Thanks for your clear reply, I do agree with it from the legal point of view, but do think about two words I said: right away. Where does right away begin or end? March 31st, 00:01? A week later? 2 weeks later...?
I would say whenever a legal change on licensing regulation happens, or whenever the particular license needs to be revalidated, whatever happens first!

Cheers
The problem with that is, that the EASA would have to react on legal procedures within a third country in hindsight. They do so if needed, however, if one can clearly see a defined date they have to use that date. There is actually no wiggle room for them, except if the commission proposes some changed laws and the EU parliament (and EU council if needed) approve it. Which happened to a few things pertaining aviation, but not for flight crew licenses as there is no need and it is not in the interest of the EU. Remember, the UK wants to leave, and EU agencies have to protect the interests of the remaining EU citizens and their businesses, not those in the UK after leaving.

So yes, the logical and only legal date is 29th of March, midnight CEST. As i said, the EU is a deeply rule based society, it has to follow its own rules.

It looks likely that there will be an extension, although that does depend on unanimity between all EU countries, which of course would enforce a different exit date, which then will be the new cutoff point in case of no deal, which is the legally binding default, even though the HoC voted against it, which is of course not binding in any way, there are only two legal ways out of a no deal scenario: withdraw the article 50 application, or sign a deal (aka withdrawal agreement).

[turbine100]

The CAA site still has the 29th as the leaving date this week, didn't the EU provide the U.K with two extension dates last week? Will the CAA provide a revised update / communication or is the 29th still in law?

[ThorMos]

The CAA site still has the 29th as the leaving date this week, didn't the EU provide the U.K with two extension dates last week?Yes, but UK parliament still has to change the 'exit law' which says that the UK is leaving on the 29th of March 23.00...

[James7]

Anyone know what is actually happening here. I read somewhere that there is an extension. I am still waiting for my Irish license to come through, been 3 months now. I know they are churning them out pretty fast at the moment just the UKCAA taking so long. Can we still fly easa planes.

[Arthur1815]

Yes, you can still fly.

If there is a no deal Brexit, that date, whenever that might be, will be limiting. Currently 23:00 on 12 April is next possibility.
What grips me is the total lack of EASA contingency on licensing. The UK have very clearly stated that they will grant third country validation for non-UK issued EASA licences to fly G Reg. EASA are refusing to do the same and ignoring the fact that Authorities have drowned under a mountain of applications. Well, at least those Authorities with a good reputation for processing routine work using days instead of months as a metric.

To make it worse the Authorities are not really following EASA guidance for mutual recognition of certificates. Primarily medicals being the choke point while the licensing teams wait for medical sign-off. Desk officers in the Authorities working their arse off, operators stressed and policy makers hiding behind the regulations and blaming the Authorities for not resourcing properly.

Rant over.

[Denti]

What grips me is the total lack of EASA contingency on licensing. The UK have very clearly stated that they will grant third country validation for non-UK issued EASA licences to fly G Reg. EASA are refusing to do the same and ignoring the fact that Authorities have drowned under a mountain of applications.
I quite understand the sentiment. But again, the EU, and its agencies, is a deeply rule based system. And in case of a hard brexit the UK is a third country, nothing more, nothing less. Therefore the exact same rules apply to the relationship between the EU and the UK as for example between the EU and Sudan. The EU contingency plans for a hard brexit actually do approve the acceptance of some certificates and licenses, but not aircrew licenses as there is no need for the EU to do so. The EU protects its own interests, and only its own, which does exclude the UK in that case. Responsible airlines have planned for the original brexit day, working closely with the relevant authorities to ensure that the operation can continue, even if a hard brexit would happen, and yes, that does include expedited license transfers. Individual ones might have been put on the backburner for the big businesses, but that is nothing unusual, money talks after all and the licensing authorities in Ireland and Austria for example are companies that have to turn a profit.

That said, EASA does not have the power to approve any third country validation against its own rules (even if it wanted to), that would have to come down from the higher ups, prepared by the commission and voted into law by the european parliament.

[JliderPilot]

Anyone know what the current turnaround time is for a UK to EASA conversion?

[fdgolf]

Anyone know what the current turnaround time is for a UK to EASA conversion?

Fellows where I work have recently transferred from UK CAA to Spain's AESA in as little as 22 days...

Cheers

[Peter_CDG]

I had a chat with AustoControl and the German LBA last week regarding my license transfer. Especially AustroControl was very customer friendly and I have been told; as long as you start the license transfer before Brexit, you will be all-right. Even if they do not receive the required paperwork from the UK CAA on time, you will keep your EASA privileges. The license will be issued as soon as they receive the documents from the UK CAA. This has been confirmed be the LBA as well.

[fdgolf]

de facto

When did the CAA charge you the fees for Doc 155 and medical release?

Thanks

[CW247]

So I'm in a situation where I could be denied a job by an European carrier/AOC flying outbound from UK airports to outside the EU because EASA have provided no assurances to them that UK licenses will still be valid on their AOC. Unfortunately, I need a UK license by the terms of my current employment whilst serving my employment notice. So cannot start the process.

Yes, the foreign carrier on the day of Brexit is somehow sure that they will be allowed by the UK to continue flying but they cannot employ a Brit with a Brit license just in case. The irony? The carrier was brought in to replace the work my old airline was doing prior to my redundancy.

On another note, now that we know we are not leaving without a deal until October 2019 end. As far as an airline should be concerned, I have 6 months to convert right? In the event of a deal based Brexit prior to this, the so-called "transition period" of 2 years will allow my UK license to remain an EASA license for a little longer anyway. Is this how EASA views it? Or is the predicament the same even in a deal based Brexit?

Thanks

[Artus KG]

I am still not sure if Brexit will happen at all but I am wondering which NAAs you guys consider competent and a good choice to go to in case a hard and nasty (for pilots) Brexit seems more and more likely. Things that are of interest to me are
- is the NAA likely to quickly introduce new ratings such as recently EIR/CBIR and in the future BIR
- does the NAA either have a large and accessible pool of examiners or easy rules on accepting examiners from other EASA NAAs
- is the price structure at least somewhat sensible (ie, AustroControl is a lot more expensive than the LBA)
- is the NAA know for stupid deviations from part fcl (the LBA's ZUP / admissibility check comes to mind)
- other things I am not aware of as I am just a new PPL holder who just barely needs his first revalidation)

[babymike737]

It seems you were right

[Skyjob]

So I'm in a situation where I could be denied a job by an European carrier/AOC flying outbound from UK airports to outside the EU because EASA have provided no assurances to them that UK licenses will still be valid on their AOC. Unfortunately, I need a UK license by the terms of my current employment whilst serving my employment notice. So cannot start the process.

Yes, the foreign carrier on the day of Brexit is somehow sure that they will be allowed by the UK to continue flying but they cannot employ a Brit with a Brit license just in case. The irony? The carrier was brought in to replace the work my old airline was doing prior to my redundancy.

On another note, now that we know we are not leaving without a deal until October 2019 end. As far as an airline should be concerned, I have 6 months to convert right? In the event of a deal based Brexit prior to this, the so-called "transition period" of 2 years will allow my UK license to remain an EASA license for a little longer anyway. Is this how EASA views it? Or is the predicament the same even in a deal based Brexit?

Thanks
Are you already serving your notice?
If so, you can start the process of transfer provided you do not have any further simulator checks.
Your transfer of licence can be started and will not be complete until you surrender your old license, so as long as paperwork is in order and ready when you want/need to, you should be fine.
If not serving your notice yet, plan accordingly.

[Icarus2001]

So this thread has gone quiet for the last three months.

It appears that BoJo is intent on leaving the EU without a deal. Treasury is spending big accordingly.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49183324 GBP2.1 billion pounds in extra funding.

The effect on aviation?

[Speed of Sound]

None.
If brexit will happen UK CAA will remain under the EASA umbrella, external member.
I would not lose my sleep on that.
The last 3 years were pretty funny in seeing that the UK goverment is not able to handle brexit.

Wouldn’t the CAA have to apply for associate membership?

[robin]

And they'd have to accept falling under the auspicies of the European Courts. That's anathema to BoJo and his team.

[portos8]

Wouldn’t the CAA have to apply for associate membership?

And would EASA "associate" membership be subject to the UK accepting the 4 freedoms of the EU (something Norway, Iceland, Switzerland and Lichtenstein seem to have done)?

[portos8]

i think bojo will have to change his mind on many issues...and he will.
So he will have to accept the 4 fundamental freedoms of the EU ( free movement of goods, services, capital and persons within the EU, the famous “four freedoms” set out in the Treaty of Rome ) plus the ECJ jurisdiction for the UK to stay in EASA.

Somehow I can not see this happen.

[Denti]

Why would the EU offer an EASA membership for a third country that just destroyed a peace treaty they have signed, does not fulfill its past obligations and seriously disrupts EU commerce? Answer: It wouldn't. Easy as that. The EU has already done its homework with its unilateral no deal legislation that it can withdraw without prior notice at any time, just protecting its own interests. And Airlines, workers, shareholders in a third country are not an interest to the EU.

[Speed of Sound]

So he will have to accept the 4 fundamental freedoms of the EU ( free movement of goods, services, capital and persons within the EU, the famous “four freedoms” set out in the Treaty of Rome ) plus the ECJ jurisdiction for the UK to stay in EASA.

Somehow I can not see this happen.

The UK has no choice.

Either it becomes an associate member of another regulatory authority elsewhere in the world, which will take months just to sort the paperwork or the CAA becomes a full, internationally recognised, regulatory authority which will take the best part of a decade.

The only way that the UK can continue to fly on 1 November is to approach the EU for associate membership of EASA, BEFORE that date and face off the idiots at home who are refusing to have any links with the EU or ECJ.

[777JRM]

Remember that EASA is not the EU.

Further, the CAA was independent once before; if they pull their finger out, they can be so again!

The UK does have a choice, and should not be weak when faced with such scaremongering!

By your patronising reckoning, I must be an ‘idiot’.

How other non-EU airlines somehow work it out, is beyond my feeble, idiotic brain cells, but all is not lost.

[Tom Sawyer]

How other non-EU airlines somehow work it out, is beyond my feeble, idiotic brain cells, but all is not lost.

Probably because they operate under their NAA with approved regulations and Licences already in place that have no doubt taken years to develop and evolve. Come 1st November, in event of a hard exit, what approved and legislated regulations and Licences will the CAA have in place? As yet I have not seen anything issued by them as a standalone NAA, or advice that they have all this in place ready to go.

[DaveReidUK]

Further, the CAA was independent once before; if they pull their finger out, they can be so again!

Yes, all the CAA needs to do is to have started the transition process about 10 years ago ...

If continued UK membership of EASA cannot be agreed, the UK could empower the UK CAA to discharge all the UK’s ICAO responsibilities. This would require the UK CAA to rebuild its competence in the many areas of an NAA’s remit which are currently delegated to EASA. Given the large number [around 300] of additional specialist staff needed, and the new systems and processes that would need to be put in place and used by industry, this could not be achieved by March 2019. Most of the specialists who carried out these tasks in the CAA prior to EASA taking them over have gone to EASA, taken on other work at the CAA, or retired. Based on the UK’s experience of transference of regulatory responsibility to the European level back in 2002, there is no evidence to suggest that a ‘reverse transfer’ back to the UK would be less challenging.

Under this scenario, a multi-year transition would be needed, during which activities would gradually move under the CAA’s direction. If suitable transition measures were not put in place there would be disruption of services following Brexit, increased costs to business, and almost certainly loss of business to UK companies. The reasons for this have been covered in the section on how the system works today with EASA above. Indeed, if this scenario appears likely during 2018 it is likely that the uncertainty will already cause UK industry to lose business. Businesses which have operations in multiple countries might decide to move some activities out of the UK and other businesses might move out of the UK. Clearly this would not be an option in every case. In any event, such moves would not be beneficial to the UK economy.

A transition period with high levels of change is not good for product safety assurance, as it takes the focus away from assuring every task is done correctly and from continuous improvement requiring additional work that does not add to safety. This situation would be worse if the transition period was badly managed, or indeed if there was an attempt to manage with no transition period and all the competent resources and system were not in place at Brexit.

Civil Aviation Regulation: What Future after Brexit? (https://www.aerosociety.com/media/6797/raes_civil_aviation_regulation_-_what_future_after_brexit.pdf)

[Speed of Sound]

Remember that EASA is not the EU.

Further, the CAA was independent once before; if they pull their finger out, they can be so again!

The UK does have a choice, and should not be weak when faced with such scaremongering!

EASA is part of the EU and as such, is ultimately subject to the European Court of Justice. Non-EU European countries have associate membership of EASA and are also ultimately subject to the ECJ.

If you identify with the ‘idiots’ I referred to earlier, maybe you could tell me what choices the UK has to remain flying on 1 November. If you are saying that this is simply scaremongering, you really do need to come up with a realistic alternative within three months.

Your move!

[robin]

Given the quite scathing summary Andrew Haines described in the paper - it basically says there is little benefit in not remaining a full EASA member and a whole load of serious issues if not - I can sort of understand for certain sectors, there will be big problems.

My CAMO has already stated that if they have to go through a reregistration process, they will be retiring. They've had more than enough problems and cost over recent years dealing with EASA changes. They won't be doing that again.

But the CAA has been VERY quiet over recent months so we don't know where they are at with preparations. Still now we have Grant Shapps/Michael Green as SoS for Transport, all will be well ....!

[Mickey Kaye]

And what about if a post brexit CAA say from now on we approve the individual not the organisation?

Maintainance would suddenly become a whole lot easier.

[ExDubai]

And what about if a post brexit CAA say from now on we approve the individual not the organisation?

Maintainance would suddenly become a whole lot easier.
It looks like a lot of companies believe it’s better to stay under EASA rules.
https://amp.theguardian.com/business/2019/jul/28/uk-aerospace-industry-steps-up-no-deal-brexit-plan-to-leave-regulator

[His dudeness]

Why would the EU offer an EASA membership for a third country that just destroyed a peace treaty they have signed, does not fulfill its past obligations and seriously disrupts EU commerce? Answer: It wouldn't. Easy as that. The EU has already done its homework with its unilateral no deal legislation that it can withdraw without prior notice at any time, just protecting its own interests. And Airlines, workers, shareholders in a third country are not an interest to the EU.

Whilst I think you are right, I guess we all know that the owner of the UK and the EU (big business) will make it clear to their respective Governments that they have to work something out.

BTW, there is a training company in the UK just changing all their licenses to the Austrian authority - whilst staying on their premises close to London.

[radiosutch]

Why would the EU offer an EASA membership for a third country that just destroyed a peace treaty they have signed, does not fulfill its past obligations and seriously disrupts EU commerce? Answer: It wouldn't. Easy as that. The EU has already done its homework with its unilateral no deal legislation that it can withdraw without prior notice at any time, just protecting its own interests. And Airlines, workers, shareholders in a third country are not an interest to the EU.
Light on facts here
1) How is the WA a peace treaty? Are we at war with the EU ? War of words maybe, but not guns and bullets . Poor choice of words
2) How has the UK 'destroyed' anything ? The UK and the EU are in a negotiation. I don't think the UK has actually destroyed anything at present
3) How has the UK 'not fulfil' past obligations. The UK and the EU are in a negotiation. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. I don't think the UK has actually failed to fulfill any obligation at present
4) How "disrupts EU commerce" This is getting repetitive, The UK and the EU are in a negotiation. I don't think the UK has actually disrupted anything at present

Wow, what an easy post to demolish !

[lilpilot]

Denti is referring to the Good Friday Agreement/Belfast Agreement as the peace treaty, not the WA.

[pr00ne]

radiosutch,

​​​​​​"The UK and the EU are in a negotiation. "

No, they are not. They are not in ANY kind of negotiation. THAT is the very worrying point in all this.

[jjohn]

Light on facts here
1) How is the WA a peace treaty? Are we at war with the EU ? War of words maybe, but not guns and bullets . Poor choice of words
2) How has the UK 'destroyed' anything ? The UK and the EU are in a negotiation. I don't think the UK has actually destroyed anything at present
3) How has the UK 'not fulfil' past obligations. The UK and the EU are in a negotiation. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. I don't think the UK has actually failed to fulfill any obligation at present
4) How "disrupts EU commerce" This is getting repetitive, The UK and the EU are in a negotiation. I don't think the UK has actually disrupted anything at present

Wow, what an easy post to demolish !

What negotiations are you talking about? The EU has dismantled its negotiation team and the BoJo is leading the UK to a no-deal exit unless the EU agrees to remove the backstop from the WA they have signed with TM.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Remember that EASA is not the EU.

Further, the CAA was independent once before; if they pull their finger out, they can be so again!

The UK does have a choice, and should not be weak when faced with such scaremongering!

By your patronising reckoning, I must be an ‘idiot’.

How other non-EU airlines somehow work it out, is beyond my feeble, idiotic brain cells, but all is not lost.

Errr. How do you expect the CAA to suddenly pick it all up on the 1st November? They have few staff in comparison to ye olden days and would suddenly have to adopt responsibility for the whole regulatory shooting match from a standstill.

I'm not going to call you an idiot, just someone who has absolutely no idea what they are talking about yet has a strong opinion anyway.

[Pinuz89]

My question is: why should a UK licence issued under EASA, not be valid after brexit (I mean in EU).
I can understand for licences issued AFTER brexit, but in mine I can read in capital letters EASA.

I'm afraid that the conversion period will go beyond the deadline.

[Alex Whittingham]

There's been a fair bit of disinformation around but the answer to your question might be "because the licensing records are no longer held by an EASA state". To avoid this possibility you could transfer your State Of Licence Issue now. Several other EASA States (Austria at least) take the view that a transfer of SOLI process started before a hard Brexit can be completed even after the event.

[Pinuz89]

There's been a fair bit of disinformation around but the answer to your question might be "because the licensing records are no longer held by an EASA state". To avoid this possibility you could transfer your State Of Licence Issue now. Several other EASA States (Austria at least) take the view that a transfer of SOLI process started before a hard Brexit can be completed even after the event.

thanks for the suggestion, I will do asap.
So, just to recap, right now in case of a hard brexit, any UK issued licences would not be reckognised outside UK anymore, and, in order to, I should retake all the ATPL examinations, is it correct ?
I mean, if the scenario does not change.

[Alex Whittingham]

Why would you assume that? If you have a UK issued EASA licence (by which I think you mean your EASA licence records are currently held by the UK) and there is a hard brexit then worst case other EASA States may not recognise the licence because (arguably) the records are not held by a member State. On the other hand they may recognise it, no-one knows. In order to avoid the possibility just transfer your SOLI. No-one mentioned retaking your ATPL exams, or flight tests, or ratings.

[Pinuz89]

Why would you assume that? If you have a UK issued EASA licence (by which I think you mean your EASA licence records are currently held by the UK) and there is a hard brexit then worst case other EASA States may not recognise the licence because (arguably) the records are not held by a member State. On the other hand they may recognise it, no-one knows. In order to avoid the possibility just transfer your SOLI. No-one mentioned retaking your ATPL exams, or flight tests, or ratings.

Yes, you are right, but I was meaning, in case of a Hard Brexit, and in case my licence will not be converted within the deadline, it will be a "third-country" licence in EU.
So I suppose the process will be, in this case, more complicated, and I'll need to resit everything again.
Of course this is gonna be the worst case scenario, and I'm gonna start the conversion asap.

[hunterboy]

I suppose it rather depends how much pressure the EU wants to apply on the UK to get its money.

[Pinuz89]

It will never happen.
Worst case scenario, UK CAA like Swiss.
External member of EASA.

So, in case of External EASA member, what will change from the present scenario ?
Will the licence still be reckognised in any other EASA state ?

[Pinuz89]

In other words, am I still able to work in the EU as a commercial pilot with a UK CAA licence (issued before brexit) ?

[Fly Aiprt]

It will never happen.
Worst case scenario, UK CAA like Swiss.
External member of EASA.

Isn't it the CAA's job to tell its stakeholders what it devised/negociated/organized for the event that is supposed to take place in less than 100 days from now ?
What does the CAA say concerning licenses, certification etc. ? They should be very busy by now, implementing whatever plan they have prepared.
That is, if they have prepared something...

[Denti]

It will never happen.
Worst case scenario, UK CAA like Swiss.
External member of EASA.

After a hard BREXIT? Not really a chance to be honest. After the UK has paid its dues, has agreed to the backstop in Ireland, guaranteed in law (and not only politicians words) the rights of all EU citizens in the UK, not only those that fit in an arbitrarily designed settlement process only available on Android devices, it might be possible. After the UK has agreed, same as switzerland, to full freedom of movement and continuing to pay into the EU the full (non-discounted) membership fee for the single market which they would have to join it is pretty much a given. But only then.

Remember, the EU is there to protect the interests of its members, not those of others outside of it, especially not those of ex members that left with producing an almighty mess. And yes, switzerland has some firsthand experience of that, remember that they voted against freedom of movement in a referendum, and yet, it is still there. And the swiss stock exchange lost all access to the EU recently because switzerland didn't want to agree to certain rule changes vis a vis the EU.


In other words, am I still able to work in the EU as a commercial pilot with a UK CAA licence (issued before brexit)

If the UK will be an EASA member (and be in the single market, fall under the auspices of the European Court of Justice etc) then yes. If the UK leaves without a deal the license will not be recognised, not even a day (unlike maintenance licenses) as the EU pointed out quite pointedly. After all, there are enough pilots in the EU. In the extremely unlikely case that the UK will be still within EASA but not fall under any other EU regulations, then, no, because you do not have the right to reside and work in the EU as a UK citizen. Of course, if you have EU citizenship, then yes, that could happen. But again, that is extremely unlikely.

[woptb]

And what about if a post brexit CAA say from now on we approve the individual not the organisation?

Maintainance would suddenly become a whole lot easier.

It will never happen, not least to allow us to maintain bilaterals that come after Brexit,to comply with ICAO SARPS and to maintain any form of credibility!

[zondaracer]

Asking because I have no idea...
Are there any countries that do a SOLI transfer without any ratings current? The ones I contacted so far require at least one rating to be current.

[PAX_Britannica]

Isn't it the CAA's job to tell its stakeholders what it devised/negociated/organized for the event that is supposed to take place in less than 100 days from now ?
What does the CAA say concerning licenses, certification etc. ?

You mean, like providing a website which discusses Brexit-related issues: https://info.caa.co.uk/brexit/ ?

[Bueno Hombre]

You mean, like providing a website which discusses Brexit-related issues: https://info.caa.co.uk/brexit/ ?

Yes. Thanks for the link.

[Alex Whittingham]

Well, the CAA have a sitting Brexit commitee of very senior bods. Naturally one can't actually contact them to ask questions or direct their attention to issues they may have missed because, well, you can't contact anyone in the CAA other than your designated point of contact. Reports from the shop floor indicate the committee are paralysed by fear because Grant Shapps is now Secretary of State and he, apparently, has a history of asking CAA officials difficult questions. So, although a number of strategies have been proposed by the shop floor, in many areas the 'go' decision in any direction has yet to be made by the committee and work has not gone beyond vague statements of intent. There may well not be enough time remaining to actually complete it. Meanwhile in EASA land the EC have told the officials not to give any help to the UK and so they too sit paralysed by fear, wishing to be helpful, but not wanting to risk their jobs. I'm sure it will turn out fine.

[Fly Aiprt]

You mean, like providing a website which discusses Brexit-related issues: https://info.caa.co.uk/brexit/ ?

Thanks for the link.
As a quick recap, in case of no-deal, the CAA would recognize EU approvals and licenses for "up to 2 years".
Not sure of who will decide the actual duration of this transition period. Maybe the PM ?
They confirm that UK commercial pilots could (should ?) change the state of issue of their EASA license prior to Brexit...

[Alex Whittingham]

TBH the SOLI question appears to be no brainer. If you transfer your SOLI the UK will recognise everything for up to two years and on application issue you a parallel UK PART-FCL licence (no details available). If you keep the UK as your SOLI you get only the UK PART-FCL licence (no details available)

[Kak Klaxon]

Thanks Alex, I have asked for a validation to fly G REG on my SOLI license. They don’t know how that’s going to work yet. I am flying on a Far East trip 31 into 1st.

Happy days.......may write my own validation in crayon on the back of the plog.

[kontrolor]

it is simple - if there hard brexit, UK licence will not be valid in EU. It may well be in the USA on the other hand....

[SJH1]

I feel I was a bit late to the party with the state of licence issue advice unfortunately. Having read the advice though, it seems like the wisest thing to do. Especially with the potential delay bill being passed through parliament tonight, which would extend the deadline for the state of licence issue process to be completed.


Just a question though. Should we leave No Deal on October 31st, as a holder of what would then become a UK Part-FCL PPL (with insufficient time between now and then to change states), what would be the likely process be to change states post Brexit??


Hopefully there's a delay which allows for my change of state, but asking just in case there's not.

[RedDragonFlyer]

Does anyone know this current Johnson deal affects pilots and student in regards to EASA/ CAA?

Will the UK remain in EASA during the transition period?

International treaties are not really in my realm of expertise and I've seen no articles online about it.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Does anyone know this current Johnson deal affects pilots and student in regards to EASA/ CAA?.
No.

(Plenty of people will speculate, and some claim inside information, but nobody knows.)

[Skyjob]

what would be the likely process be to change states post Brexit??

You will require a full application from the like of any third country status applicant, as intra-EASA transfer of licence will not be able to change anymore.
See it a s full initial each time...

[Pinuz89]

You will require a full application from the like of any third country status applicant, as intra-EASA transfer of licence will not be able to change anymore.
See it a s full initial each time...

This scenario is only in case of a no-deal, in case of a deal, depend on the deal itself.

[rwm]

I am currently writing the Part 66 exams in the UK via the CAA. I already have Canadian AME M1 & M2, and FAA A&P licenses. I hope to have these exams complete before the end of the year. I have not seen anything that states that it won't be an EASA part 66 license, only that:

"EU exit
Please note that, in the event of UK participation in EASA and mutual recognition of licences and certificates ceasing, some CAA website content and application forms may continue to carry the EASA logo or reference the EU or EASA rather than the UK CAA in the short term. These will be updated in due course following the outcome of the transition period negotiations on the long-term aviation relationship between the UK and the EU. In the meantime, the guidance provided and the application forms accessed via the CAA website portal will continue to be valid."

I have read other places that nothing will change until 31 Dec 2020 and therefore a license issued in the UK will still be an EASA part 66. Does anyone know if this is still true?

Is there an easier place to write the exams that I won't need to worry about having to convert or write a different license again? I'm a bit concerned as this covid-19 issue has caused some concerns with how long travel will be restricted making it difficult for me to complete the license before the door closes.

[W Smith]

rwm - You seem to have missed the fundamemtal point here. An EASA licence is only an EASA licence if it is issued and administered by the competent authority of a Member State. The UK government has said that the UK CAA will cease to be a part of the EASA system in December. That will mean that every licence that the CAA HAS EVER ISSUED WILL CEASE TO BE A VALID EASA LICENCE on that date. It makes no difference what it says on the licence, it will not be valid for working on EASA aircraft, any more than a licence issued by Russia, Australia, or the USA with "EASA" printed on it would be an EASA licence.
If you get an EASA Part 66 licence (or a Part-FCLpilot licence) issued by the CAA before it leaves EASA you will be an "existing holder of a UK issued EASA licence". The only way to preserve the EU privileges of an EASA licence issued by the UK CAA is to have it reissued by another EASA State before it ceases to be a valid EASA licence. That is why there is so much stuff on the CAA website telling people how to move their licences to other countries - in the jargon 'change the State of Licence Issue (SOLI)"
On the CAA website is a section specific to Brexit -
i.e. The page 'Our-work - About-us - Brexit'
Halfway down that page there is a bullet point which reads:

UK-issued licences and approvals (issued when the UK was an EASA member) will continue to have validity under UK law but only those contained in EU Regulation 2019/494 will continue to have validity within the EU system, as defined by that regulation.

If you look up EU Regulation 2019/494 you will find that in the Annex to the Regulation it lists the UK issued licences and approvals that will remain valid for a limited period. If you refer to that Annex you will find that it DOES NOT include Part 66 licences nor does it include Part-FCL pilot licences. They will all cease to be valid in the EU.
That is why thousands of UK licensed pilots and engineers have made sure they have had their UK EASA licences re-issued by other countries - such as the Republic of Ireland and Austria (because Easyjet is changing from a British to an Austrian airline because of Brexit).
That same page on the CAA website says:

All licences issued by the CAA under EU legislation, and all type approval certificates and third country approvals issued by EASA under EU legislation, will continue to have validity under UK law, provided they were effective immediately before 1 January 2021.

This is consistent with the reality that an EASA Part 66 licence issued by the UK CAA will become a UK national licence, still valid for G registered aircraft, but ONLY valid for G registered aircraft. These licences will not be valid for aircraft registered outside the UK unless other countries sign new agreements to make UK national licences valid for aircraft on their registers. Probably not a priority for anyone in the current crisis.
The advice is simple (and you will find it implied on the UK CAA website if you look hard enough).
If you want to work on or fly aircraft that are registered in EASA Member States after this year, get yourself a licence issued by an EU Member State, not the UK CAA.

[covec]

Icelanta.

Sorry that an exercise in Democracy should upset you so.

Yep. Consequences. Big Boys Rules.

For where I live...may be a moot point. 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

In any case, my FI work is on G registered aircraft.

Red Dragon Flyer: train and get examined in non-UK EU States.

Curious though. All this talk of “if no deal” no UK licensed pilot can fly in EU countries begs the question: and what of EASA licensed pilots flying in the UK?