British Airways

[davidjohnson6]

Do the passengers in economy really care enough to pay extra ? People said the world would end when BA made economy short haul pax pay for a sandwich and gin & tonic.... but the world carried on

[EI-BUD]

Oh how we live in unprecedented times and its altogether very unsettling for all of us in the industry.

As it stood before the current crisis BA particularly its short haul was at an enormously large cost disadvantage when compared to the low cost airlines, who have immeasurably lower costs and operate in the same market pairs.

The industry wage, especially in cabin crew, (and various ground handling jobs) has been dropping, with many roles being outsourced by many airlines in order to attempt to somewhat level the playing field of cost. The low cost airlines are the ones who have torn the Ts & Cs up and brought in substantially lower starting salaries. I understand people are angry but also worth considering the macro environment. If BA is to survive it will need to slim down its cost base. It looks like it will be firmly reliant on its short haul flying for some time, without its profitable US operation that would appear to subsidise its less profitable short haul flying. Management are left with limited options and nothing they attempt to do will be attractive to those impacted.




​​​

[Hial Flyer]

Do the passengers in economy really care enough to pay extra ? People said the world would end when BA made economy short haul pax pay for a sandwich and gin & tonic.... but the world carried on

The world carried on but most of their short haul passengers now fly with EZY and the other LCCs.

[bex88]

The world carried on but most of their short haul passengers now fly with EZY and the other LCCs.

Really! Most of my short haul passengers come to LHR to go onto a LH destination. BA have the SH resources sitting there. While our network feeding operation is broken, let us go head to head with EZY, RYR etc on point to point leisure traffic.

[hec7or]

Really! Most of my short haul passengers come to LHR to go onto a LH destination. BA have the SH resources sitting there. While our network feeding operation is broken, let us go head to head with EZY, RYR etc on point to point leisure traffic.
Maybe BA should have held on to BHX and MAN as bases

[Jamesair1]

bex88......I would suggest that is exactly what BA are doing, moving the point to point leisure traffic from LGW to the much more attractive LHR. Certainly more attractive for those of us living north of the river.

[RealFish]

bex88......I would suggest that is exactly what BA are doing, moving the point to point leisure traffic from LGW to the much more attractive LHR. Certainly more attractive for those of us living north of the river.
...and those of us living north of London!

Absolutely delighted our flights to Funchal have decanted to LHR. I think some weeks last year there were 9 weekly to FNC from Gatwick with double daily at weekends. There might be an argument for at least one or two of those to remain at Heathrow.

[inOban]

Except surely that many areas to the north of London have direct trains to LGW while LHR requires at least one change?

[Walnut]

I have bad news for you FNC and the other LGW Holiday routes are returning to LGW on the 9/9
it was pragmatic to move all to LHR when LGW had limiting operating hours last and this month

[CabinCrewe]

I have bad news for you FNC and the other LGW Holiday routes are returning to LGW on the 9/9
it was pragmatic to move all to LHR when LGW had limiting operating hours last and this month
Mmm, mine at end of Sept has only just been moved from LGW to LHR. I would be surprised if all up and running at LGW early Sept.

[nguba]

BA LGW short-haul routes are staying at LHR until 9 November at the earliest.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Maybe BA should have held on to BHX and MAN as bases

MAN, yes. As for BHX, I don't think you could make a profit there. Same goes for GLA and BFS as bases.

[ATNotts]

MAN, yes. As for BHX, I don't think you could make a profit there. Same goes for GLA and BFS as bases.

When BA had their base and hub at BHX it was said to be quite lucrative since the NEC and ICC attracted decent yielding passengers; I suspect that if the bean counters had wanted MAN and BHX to be profitable they could have produced figures that could have made both thus. They chose not to, and the rest is history.

[brian_dromey]

MAN, yes. As for BHX, I don't think you could make a profit there. Same goes for GLA and BFS as bases.

Im not sure thats quite true. The returns on investment at LHR and LGW were much better than at regional airports. Thats not the same as not being profitable. Clearly the 29 million passengers in MAN during 2019 wont all have been loss-making. STN is a similar argument - BA are quite happy to use it at the weekends when their LCY fleet would otherwise be grounded.

[CabinCrewe]

When BA had their base and hub at BHX it was said to be quite lucrative since the NEC and ICC attracted decent yielding passengers; I suspect that if the bean counters had wanted MAN and BHX to be profitable they could have produced figures that could have made both thus. They chose not to, and the rest is history.
They were only ‘lucrative’ back then because they routinely commanded ridiculous fares and had little in the way of direct regional competition. Neither of which is feasible nowadays.

[MARK 101]

Was always lead to believe BHX was quite a profitable operation. Having said that BA had it all to themselves, even the European flag carriers tended to leave BHX alone until relatively recently

[davidjohnson6]

"Back then" was in the days before LCCs were anywhere near as large as they are now. BA sold their regional ops in the form of BA Connect to Flybe (or rather paid Flybe to them off BA's hands) in 2007 for a reason
The days of each country having a national state-owned monopoly airline are largely gone (except for Alitalia !) - so each airline has to decide the market sectors it thinks it can do well - trying to be all things to all people just leads to AirBerlin

[ATNotts]

Was always lead to believe BHX was quite a profitable operation. Having said that BA had it all to themselves, even the European flag carriers tended to leave BHX alone until relatively recently

That is a very important consideration, however all the carriers made hay while the NEC / ICC sun shone, and probably still do, even more so with FlyBe out of the way (or should I say will, when and if the exhibition and convention business ever fully recovers). The problem of course for BA was filling the A319s, and later RJ100s when there wasn't a big show or convention on.

[Mr A Tis]

BA set up their own LCC in the form of GO, which could easily have made a Go of it from places like MAN, long before the others were significantly on the scene. Instead they flogged it off and concentrated on ploughing funds into the Manx/Regional proving the case that regional flying was dead for BA. I'd say it proved what they wanted to prove.

[TURIN]

TU now reporting all SH at LGW to cease and be transferred to LHR. Hangar to close and only about a dozen LH routes to be retained.

Appalling! If True of course. Good luck everyone.

[HZ123]

GO was heavily subsidised often engineering and fuel bills were payed by the destination stations from the BA accounts!

[TOM100]

I know hindsight is a wonderful thing - at the time I believe BA said that GO as a low cost carrier wasn’t in their DNA or fit their strategy but if they had grown it (and it was growing fast) things could be different. It would now fit nicely in the IAG stable alongside VY and EI (or merged with one). I also think they made a strategic mistake not to extend the GB Airways franchise or buy it and they would have had a much stronger hold at LGW and prevented the Orange expansion (GB were 3rd biggest slot holder with 10-12 a/c). How much did they pay for the former MON slots ? As I say though hindsight is a wonderful thing. Some big strategic mistakes though ?

[willy wombat]

Well they bought CityFlyer which had a nice low cost base at Gatwick but lost the low cost element when they folded it into BA - oh and they did the same with Dan Air. BA has never liked Gatwick. From time to time they give it a go - remember “the hub without hubbub “? but it never lasts.

[PAXboy]

BA, like many long established corporates has a 'culture' and each new generation of staff who join find themselves unable to break through that culture. I have seen this in many enterprises, not just airlines.

It is all part of the human desire to keep things the way that they were and difficulty in seeing what they might become. Which is how old companies die and new ones are born. In the (I think) late 1970s, British Rail experimented with ways to reduce cost of their multiple diesel units on small routes. They took a body from a coach and put it on bogies (obviously more complicated than that!) but it didn't work. Many years later, it came out that some of the senior BR men had thought, "It didn't look like a train" Sums it up.

[ATNotts]

BA, like many long established corporates has a 'culture' and each new generation of staff who join find themselves unable to break through that culture. I have seen this in many enterprises, not just airlines.

It is all part of the human desire to keep things the way that they were and difficulty in seeing what they might become. Which is how old companies die and new ones are born. In the (I think) late 1970s, British Rail experimented with ways to reduce cost of their multiple diesel units on small routes. They took a body from a coach and put it on bogies (obviously more complicated than that!) but it didn't work. Many years later, it came out that some of the senior BR men had thought, "It didn't look like a train" Sums it up.

That would be the Leyland National bus on a rail bogey - called the Sprinter. Frankly any decent sprinter could have sprinted faster!!

[Albert Hall]

They took a body from a coach and put it on bogies (obviously more complicated than that!) but it didn't work.

At the risk of thread drift, it did work, or at the very least, it came to fruition. Class 140 to 144 trains (Pacers, as they're known) are still plaguing customers today on Northern Trains and I think a couple of other TOCs even now.

Is there any more news on the BA short-haul LGW reports? Seismic change if true.

[SealinkBF]

My BA flight from INV to LHR has been cancelled a third time. I’m never getting home!

[nohold]

Better start walking then!

[inOban]

So it's EZY or the train or is the overnight coach running?

[TOM100]

Sad news today about BA CC - I can’t however help but think members should not have put their blind trust in the intransigent and frankly incompetent BASSA reps. A policy of not talking and saying no to everything for months (until it was too late) was, like previously, never going to end well. Whilst BALPA may not have got a great deal, the engagement and constructive talks at least prevented a far worse outcome. Sad.

[Curious Pax]

BA, like many long established corporates has a 'culture' and each new generation of staff who join find themselves unable to break through that culture. I have seen this in many enterprises, not just airlines.

It is all part of the human desire to keep things the way that they were and difficulty in seeing what they might become. Which is how old companies die and new ones are born. In the (I think) late 1970s, British Rail experimented with ways to reduce cost of their multiple diesel units on small routes. They took a body from a coach and put it on bogies (obviously more complicated than that!) but it didn't work. Many years later, it came out that some of the senior BR men had thought, "It didn't look like a train" Sums it up.

It’s not long left service with Northern Rail I believe!

[Cloud1]

Sad news today about BA CC - I can’t however help but think members should not have put their blind trust in the intransigent and frankly incompetent BASSA reps. A policy of not talking and saying no to everything for months (until it was too late) was, like previously, never going to end well. Whilst BALPA may not have got a great deal, the engagement and constructive talks at least prevented a far worse outcome. Sad.

Agreed. I wonder how many crew have cancelled their direct debit to the unions.

[willy wombat]

BA’s cabin crew reps have never done their members any favours, being far more interested in the politics than the staff. Previous management (and I’m going back 20 odd years) pandered to the unions and BASSA can’t get its head round the fact that those days are over. These are terrible times for the industry and if the union reps can’t recognise that they should be put the door.

[nguba]

It's very sad. History repeats itself and a lot of good people have got caught in the middle of it all.

Can't help but notice how in the 2009/2010 BA CC dispute Len McCluskey was happy to take a prominent role towards the end as he was running his campaign for the leadership of Unite, yet in the past week he has given major interviews to The Observer, BBC etc all about Labour Party politics.

It's also no coincidence that after the 2009/2010 dispute, BA's approach to industrial relations negotiations has hardened considerably.

[TURIN]

Sad news today about BA CC - I can’t however help but think members should not have put their blind trust in the intransigent and frankly incompetent BASSA reps. A policy of not talking and saying no to everything for months (until it was too late) was, like previously, never going to end well. Whilst BALPA may not have got a great deal, the engagement and constructive talks at least prevented a far worse outcome. Sad.
Unite represent far more than just CC.
160 Eng staff have taken VR gods knows how many more are being made CR this weekend!

[Blackfriar]

It probably would have been cheaper to tarmac the line anad make it single track with passing places to be used only by buses and coaches. No expensive track maintenance, no expensive signalling, simple, cheap one-man operation by bus crews and at key points and termini the bus could leave the "permanent way" and toodle off into the road network - but the rail people would have seen another Beeching.

[TOM100]

Unite represent far more than just CC.
160 Eng staff have taken VR gods knows how many more are being made CR this weekend!

Turin you are right of course and my sympathies go out to them too. I only feel able to comment on CC as I know the detail and have first hand experience of the BASSA reps - crew have been badly let down by them (again) imo and they have never taken a pragmatic approach. The days of BASSA holding the senior management of BA to ransom are long gone and they simply haven’t adapted their approach to take account of this. Bully tactics of BASSA just don’t work anymore and they willl need to take a long hard look in the mirror at how many of these job losses can be attributed to them. I’m not saying BA’s approach has been right (far from it) but a strategy of no engagement, refusing to accept the reality and advising members not to talk was crazy. As I said, BALPA have hardly got their desired outcome but it could have been a lot worse ! BASSA/Unite now saying give us the pilots deal is a bit late and a bit ironic - had they engaged (like BALPA) maybe they would have got something a bit more like that hard fought deal.

[vctenderness]

In typical Unite fashion I heard the Assistant General Secretary on the radio just banging on about the pilots having got a better deal.

Well maybe the ‘Ostrich’ style of negotiating has brought about the usual result for the cabin crew.

I also read that BASSA reps were still advising members not to take the VR offer as late as Thursday meaning if they listened to that advice on Friday they were likely redundant.

What a joke they really are.

[Buster the Bear]

More Embraer 190s heading to the U.K.

[BAeuro]

More Embraer 190s heading to the U.K.

Do you know when?

[southside bobby]

Info on a well known UK & Ireland Fleet listings site.

[sportzbar]

It’s not long left service with Northern Rail I believe!
Believe it or not, the venerable 142 Pacer is still in service on a few select routes form Manchesters Piccadilly and Victoria stations. I drive them for a living and they are by far most drivers favourite train. Anyway, back to BA.....

[TURIN]

Compulsory redundancy within Engineering now on hold until the results of a TU /EJSS meeting on 12th August. Possibly a ballot of members but no idea whether that is to accept the latest company deal or take unilateral industrial action.

[BAeuro]

Do we have any more news on Gatwick? Are crew being told that short haul is gone?

[Downwind_Left]

More Embraer 190s heading to the U.K.

6 second hand E190s to replace the 6 E170s leaving the fleet.
Planned before well before anyone had heard of Coronavirus. 4 E170s have already left the operational fleet. Entry into the fleet presumably not until they are actually required now.

[JSCL]

Do we have any more news on Gatwick? Are crew being told that short haul is gone?
A friend of a friend is an overseas station manager for BA who is of the understanding Gatwick is permanently canned for the long term, so not sure if anyone knows any different...

[TURIN]

BA to Pull out of LGW S/H (https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/08/09/is-british-airways-planning-to-permanently-shut-short-haul-from-gatwick/)

[BAeuro]

A friend of a friend is an overseas station manager for BA who is of the understanding Gatwick is permanently canned for the long term, so not sure if anyone knows any different...

But BA are still operating select Long Haul flights from LGW. They also plan to launch a new route from LGW to Montego Bay in October. I think the real threat is for short haul.

Thanks for the link TURIN I had seen the article but wasn’t sure how much it could be trusted. There’s been no official statement from BA yet and I haven’t heard anything from staff. I guess the winter timetable shakeup will give us more information.

[wiggy]

I also read that BASSA reps were still advising members not to take the VR offer as late as Thursday meaning if they listened to that advice on Friday they were likely redundant.

What a joke they really are.

Regardless of any BASSA advice many legacy cabin crew had already opted to take what they were calling "involuntary VR" by Monday of last week...

[Cloud1]

BA to Pull out of LGW S/H (https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/08/09/is-british-airways-planning-to-permanently-shut-short-haul-from-gatwick/)

Interesting that the author has seemingly come up with the idea that Aer Lingus could fill the void at LGW. This was tried in the past and pulled and I didn’t really have Aer Lingus down as a LCC. As previous posters have alluded to, the GO branding was the best and most fitting but that’s gone. I also still think there may be some meat to the bones of an idea that City Flyer could fill some void at LGW operating sun and leisure city routes with LCY significantly reduced to core business traffic - and as such a reduced portfolio.

[Walnut]

Does it make sense to keep a handful of services, ie the L/H flights at LGW, if the S/H flights as Turin suggests are moved to LHR.
By removing the 744 fleet from the system this releases the stands. Presumably the unused slots need covering too otherwise they will be lost. LHR slots are more valuable than LGW slots

[southside bobby]

Daily Telegraph & others this morning report BA cuts £1 a week allowance for first aiders.

[nowhereasfiled]

I also still think there may be some meat to the bones of an idea that City Flyer could fill some void at LGW operating sun and leisure city routes with LCY significantly reduced to core business traffic - and as such a reduced portfolio.

I mentioned this a few months back but it was batted off because of Mainline contracts and some clauses within them.
Surely with what’s gone on recently, the answer could now be different?

[Cloud1]

I mentioned this a few months back but it was batted off because of Mainline contracts and some clauses within them.
Surely with what’s gone on recently, the answer could now be different?

I think we should be looking at things very differently now. Just because it’s not been possible in the past doesn’t mean it’s not possible now. It would also enable efficiencies using the same BA branding rather than IAG (BA/EI sharing common handling etc). Also CF wouldn’t need to do any domestics and leave that to EZY...instead they could do some of the city destinations not extensively served already. Would be easier to fill an E190.

[willy wombat]

But you won't profitably match EZY fares with an E190. CF FlyBe and the 195.

[commit aviation]

I also still think there may be some meat to the bones of an idea that City Flyer could fill some void at LGW operating sun and leisure city routes with LCY significantly reduced to core business traffic - and as such a reduced portfolio.

I am not sure what the benefit of this would be. Why move routes from LCY where there is limited competition so presumably reasonable returns, to LGW where you would be up against EZY and others? As mentioned elsewhere, I don't believe the maths of flying an E190 stack up against an A320 or B738.

[TURIN]

Daily Telegraph & others this morning report BA cuts £1 a week allowance for first aiders.

Our line manager cut that years ago. Refused to keep a first aider trained up just to save £52/year.

We don't have first aiders anymore.

[Cloud1]

I am not sure what the benefit of this would be. Why move routes from LCY where there is limited competition so presumably reasonable returns, to LGW where you would be up against EZY and others? As mentioned elsewhere, I don't believe the maths of flying an E190 stack up against an A320 or B738.

Willywombat and yourself are assuming CF would compete with EZY. There will be some routes I am sure that are either not served by EZY or will have marginal return on the Airbus. It will be up to the analysts to identify those but serving niche routes could return decent yield.

LCY isn’t that useful without business connectivity which will decline for a period. For the few that can access central London easily, LCY works but it is easy enough to train it to LGW or LHR as an alternative. CF could keep the key business routes to and from Amsterdam, Scotland and Ireland etc and readjust their non core business and leisure. Florence as an example is served by Vueling from LGW but not at the same frequency; that could transfer to CF along with introducing some niche routes like San Sebastián. This is just two routes but I am sure others could be identified. Besides EasyJet and Ryanair offer low fares and obtain profit on their ancillaries. Buy on Board has all but stopped and with customers being advised to check in as much as they can to reduce movement in the cabin the adding on of baggage suddenly sees those low fares increase.

It’s just a thought but without any access to the numbers of then and now/predicted it’s hard to gauge demand on routes and what cost increases there are to handling flights, which will potentially be passed back to the consumer anyway.

[willy wombat]

I agree some of your points are reasonable and as a short term solution, maybe for domestics as well, the lower trip costs of an EMB vs 320 or 737 could be useful. However problem one is that I don’t think BA care enough about LGW to come up with an innovative solution (would love to be proved wrong) and problem two is that if you build up a route on an EMB to a level where it’s profitable, a RYR or an EZY or even these days a WIZ fancies having a go at it and there is a maxim to the effect that in a competitive situation, eventually the lower/lowest cost provider will always win.

[davidjohnson6]

I doubt BA flying an E190 from any London airport to San Sebastian will work outside July/August, even in a normal year

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Would be easier to fill an E190.
You need to fill the ERJ at a premium to compete, this works at LCY as the mix is more affluent and the competition restricted. Flying ERJs against A320s is partly what killed flybe, as they had to compete on price.

[southside bobby]

BAW/CFE with the ERJ co-habited over several previous summer season weekends in the lions den at STN.

[willy wombat]

But the STN flights operated, I am sure, on a marginal cost basis which is ok for a small part of your business if you haven’t got anything better to do with the asset, but you can’t run a significant chunk of your business like that. I’ve often wondered if that was part of Flybe’s problem. I’d love to see some of their management accounts.

[southside bobby]

Probably a fair observation WW regarding BAW/CFE & with BEE the killer was said many times to be the original Embraer lease rate deal.

[WHBM]

I also still think there may be some meat to the bones of an idea that City Flyer could fill some void at LGW operating sun and leisure city routes with LCY significantly reduced to core business traffic - and as such a reduced portfolio.
What has made BA CityFlyer do well on Mediterranean routes at London City is the ability to mesh operations with those same "core business" routes. There is not equal 24x7 demand for business travel, and BACF have developed over time a very efficient model. Starting with one Med round trip in between morning and evening business high demand, they have exploited different demand patterns for different days of the week (business travel is very different on Fridays), and different times of year. Not all the routes run all the time - Nice is cut back most winters, a personal inconvenience, and surprising as BA from Heathrow and Gatwick do not cut back their frequent multiple daily flights, but there we are. You won't get any of this with a separate fleet at Gatwick.

It's also something of a myth that travel there is wholly connected with Canary Wharf - its catchment area spreads wide, as is apparent from conversation with those seated alongside me. It's the most convenient for Central London, especially those doing day return trips, and you find people from outer London, Essex, Kent etc make a considerable proportion of the load. One regular traveller I know from London to Athens finds it quicker to use Swiss, connecting at Zurich, than trek out to Heathrow or Gatwick for a direct flight.

[B737Capt]

..........

[True Blue]

This is the time that senior management will earn their corn, they will either make or break BA with decisions made in the next few weeks. It is very difficult to keep a major corporation at the top of the game all the time, many have got to the top and then faded away due poor senior management decisions.

So BA seems like they want to dump Lgw, apart from a few LH routes. BA has never been fully committed to Lgw. I remember many years ago, when you could still get paper copies of the timetable, being amused at the way that Lhr was always pushed over Lgw on routes that were flown from both airports, even when the Lhr connections were not quite so good, e.g Gla-Lgw/Lhr-xxx.

Various reports state that travel will not recover to 2019 levels until 2022, or 2023, or 2024. In terms of the lifetime of a large corporation like BA, those 3 or 4 years are but a blink. If they give up most of their slots at Lgw, which are considerable in number, what happens when travel is back to 2019 levels? Lhr will be full and Lgw may well be nearing capacity as well. A third runway at Lhr still years away. When they need to expand, where will they go - Southend? I see some airlines saying they will emerge a smaller carrier. Long term, they won't exist as they will have been taken over. Standing still means going backwards in reality. Interesting times ahead for our London, sorry national carrier, which might not be our national carrier a few years from now.

Wonder how long it will be before Ezy apply for some slots in BA's home turf?

[EI-BUD]

Great points made True Blue. Here would be my take on this. BA will not want to make access by Wizz and Ryanair into LGW easy as they would certainly impact LHR yield. BA will be waiting to see what the slot usage rules look like for Winter. If they are strict BA will double down on LHR, makes sense. Very fluid situation. Beyond the obvious LGW poor relation position for BA, we are now looking into a transformed cost base that will give BA (Aer Lingus style cost transformation) the tools to fight easyJet on a sustainable footing. Let's hope BA think long term.

They are faced with some multifaceted challenges to solve..
​​​​​​

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

The reason BA didn’t love Gatwick is because BA was a full service airline offering connections, had in house engineering and handling and also various franchise partners. All were additional costs against almost everyone else at LGW. So whereas BA could command a LHR premium, they couldn’t do the same at LGW. The way to profitability was to cut, slash and simplify. The hub went, handling was outsourced, engineering was cut way back. The “hand me down” fleet ex LHR was supplemented by 3rd hand A320s, something of first for BA. Hence they seemed to get into the black on point to point leisure routes, all of which are actually non core to everything at LHR. Overlap and duplication is the first to go in a travel slump, followed by routes that don’t support the wider strategy (feeding US long haul at LHR, and yes that’s also screwed).

I think the V shaped recovery wasn’t an option for travel. I said months ago this summer was lost, the winter is lost too, any bounce back will be next summer. So it makes no business sense to fly what was already a greatly pruned short haul winter program in this worst of winters out of LGW.

Also worth remebering, easyJet are also in a horrible place, everyone is.

[cavokblues]

The scope agreement would prohibit CFE operating from Gatwick for any length of time. I think the removal of that would be redline for BALPA and rightly so.

[nowhereasfiled]

G-LCYP operating to the Med out of Luton today?

[GLCYZ]

G-LCYP operating to the Med out of Luton today?

This is a one-off charter, and will position back to NWI.

[toledoashley]

This is a one-off charter, and will position back to NWI.

F1 Charter to Girona

[Mr Mac]

I overheard a conversation in my dry cleaners which brought home the sad results of Covid 19 on BA. There was a gentleman in front of me on Sat who was a BA LH Captain who had flown back from SA early last week, and was told the following day that he was being made redundant after 30+ years with BA. He felt a little cheated as he did want to carry on for a while longer, but also because he did not know that was to be his last flight, and there was no Fire engine salute or anything to mark it, which I have to say I totally sympathise with him about. If he had at least known, as he said he would have savoured it more.

Kind regards
Mr Mac

[MARKEYD]

I am afraid there are many 1000 s of us in the same situation as him
No last flight or able to say goodbye properly ( 37yrs and just hand back your uniform )

The fire brigade would be permanently at the end of the runway for years seeing everyone off !!

A truly disgraceful way to end our careers from a very disgraceful company which they have turned out to be

[RogueOne]

...no Fire engine salute

Wow... First World Problems.

[Cloud1]

A truly disgraceful way to end our careers from a very disgraceful company which they have turned out to be

I guess it’s subjective to some extent depending on where in the company you sit and how the process has been. There are colleagues leaving after 40+ years in the business. If BA are as bad as everyone is saying they are though and if they are such a disgrace then probably best not working for them anyway.

It is sad that many staff didn’t get to say their goodbyes but I believe it’s probably the case in several companies right now sadly.

[davidjohnson6]

There are tens of thousands of people losing their jobs across the UK. Yes, that includes people with high levels of education who've kept their nose clean and done the right thing for their employer for years

I very much doubt much of the UK really cares if somebody who has had a well paid job for 30 years gets laid off. There is no magic to pilots which means they have a right not to be laid off like others

[TURIN]

And yet here you are... 🙄

[Mr Mac]

Rogueone / david johnson6
I take your point about the fire engine thing, but it was done before Covid 19 as you should know. However you would have thought that the HR Dept would be able to tell someone before there flight that it would indeed be their last one before retirement or redundancy, or were they worried how that would impact on said pilots train of thought. I would have thought that given that you have trusted the individual to fly your A/C for 30 + years without incident, in no doubt some difficult conditions you would at least be able to do that. I hope when or if I have to let any of my employees go due to Covid I make a better fist of it than that . Indeed over my career it has been done to me, and I have had in the past had to let people go, but it does not say much for the expensive HR training carried out on people in that department throughout industry that the best they can do was that which was imparted last week.

Kind regards
Mr Mac

[wiggy]

I overheard a conversation in my dry cleaners which brought home the sad results of Covid 19 on BA. There was a gentleman in front of me on Sat who was a BA LH Captain who had flown back from SA early last week, and was told the following day that he was being made redundant after 30+ years with BA.

I know BA are getting a kicking over it's attitude to employees but TBH I'm struggling with that story (I'm not doubting what you heard Mr Mac, just doubt that you got or were given the whole story because it smells slightly of BS)....

AFAIK no pilots that senior in BA have been made compulsory redundant..so far that has only happened the bottom 250 pilots plus/minus, who in the main joined BA in the last year or two.

If he'd applied for Voluntary Redundancy he would have known what was in store and FWIW I don't know anybody who only got one days notice - in any event I certainly wouldn't label that as being "made" redundant

BA haven't routinely "done" fire arches for retirements for years - if at all in living memory at LHR, I've certainly never witnessed ones on the retirement trips I've been involved with. The best you'll get these days is a picture handed to you in crew report by a manager...

In current circumstances with hundreds of pilots leaving either forced or voluntarily over the next few days and weeks I doubt even a picture will be handed out.

[esscee]

Who would want a photo/picture with the manager that effectively "sacked" them anyway?

[Mr Mac]

Wiggy
As I said I take the point re fire arches but I have seen it done for other retiring pilots for other carriers at other airports, but as I said I do not know if BA did this as I no longer use BA or indeed LHR very much now, but he mentioned it. The gentleman said he had 30+ years with BA and had come back from SA on Monday last week, and was then made redundant, as he did not know it was to be his last flight it did not sound like voluntary redundancy to me, as normally you would apply for that beforehand so would know presumably that this would be your last trip. Anyway I sympathise with those losing their jobs, and indeed those having retirement forced upon them regardless as to how well off they have been, as these are people with hopes and dreams just like everybody else, and it did not sound like the way you would like to round out your career.

Kind regards
Mr Mac

[Cloud1]

I think the HR team are a tad bit busy to be emailing airports notifying them of a Pilot’s last flight. I mean I don’t expect to get dowsed in water when I leave a job. It was a nice thing to do in the past but times are changing.

[TURIN]

People were being called on their mobile phones while making their way to work last week, made redundant. No last day to say good bye to your mates, just not allowed back in.
Two days later, the phone calls were along the lines of "very sorry but we made a mistake, can you come back in please?"
Nuts!

[wiggy]

Wiggy
As I said I take the point re fire arches but I have seen it done for other retiring pilots for other carriers at other airports,

I have heard of it happening very rarely at one or two of the BA outstations if the captain involved had been a regular visitor over they years, other than that it wasn't SOP.

Once upon a time a proper pilot manager would actually come on board the aircraft on arrival at LHR and give the retiring captain a thank you hand shake, usually done in First Class with the crew present..that died out for various reasons. For while after that there was no "ceremony" at all. In recent years there has been a bit of an attempt to restore some respectability with the picture taking I mentioned earlier.

The gentleman said he had 30+ years with BA and had come back from SA on Monday last week, and was then made redundant, as he did not know it was to be his last flight it did not sound like voluntary redundancy to me, as normally you would apply for that beforehand so would know presumably that this would be your last trip.

Well FWIW I'm another 30+ year Long Haul captain in BA, currently going through the back end of the voluntary redundancy (VR) process and I didn't realise when I stepped off the aircraft for the last time a few months back that it was my last trip...it's very easily done and the same has happened to a lot of pilots at BA (and probably elsewhere)...sadly some of them don't know it yet..

At BA many pilots had rosters decimated as flights were cancelled due to poor passenger loads, that then resulted with many only maintaining recency by use of the simulator. Offer of VR comes along, and bingo, for many, self included, that's it.....You end up waiting for the exit date and your last sector is a distant memory.

As for the conversation you overheard - Knowing first hand how both the Voluntary Redundancy process and (by word of mouth) how the Compulsory redundancy process for pilots has been done at BA I'm really really struggling to work out the mechanism by which a 30+ year captain can suddenly find himself in the situation you heard described i.e. Operated a Long Haul trip, day later told he's being laid off....There simply has to be more to it...

[davidjohnson6]

It's quite common in large companies that an employee comes to work as usual one day, receives a phonecall from their manager asking them to come to a meeting room where HR are present (act as witness and ensure process is followed strictly in case employee decides to sue for unfair dismissal), pre-prepared "consultation" papers are handed over, employee is escorted to their desk to put belongings in cardboard box and then escorted off premises. Phonecall to walking out the building in 20 mins. No sympathy, no support, just HR following a process

Most managers when told "you must cut 30% of cost of employees reporting to you or we will get rid of you as well" will usually happily come up with a list of names to be given a P45

BA HR will think the same way as HR at any other large company - loyalty means nothing to HR when they have to cut 30% of costs and you are just one of a long list of names in a spreadsheet.

[SWBKCB]

That can't be right - it would involve HR actually getting involved, rather than just dumping it onto managers. Surely they'd have important meetings to attend, etc.?

[wiggy]

davejohnson6 - Agreed...

In normal times BA had a system where you could select a pre-retirement trip to be taken in the last few months prior to your known retirement date ...it didn't get you the fire arch but gave you the chance to pick a trip to go somewhere nice if you couldn't usually get it as a result of seniority and the normal bidding process.

Thing is we're not in normal times right now and the priority for scheduling staff ATM is fire fighting - they need all of the reduced sectors they can lay their hands on in Long Haul to get or keep people "recent" and/or in check....I rather suspect they haven't got the time or the inclination to start allocating retirement trips for those about to hang up their headsets when they need those rare as rocking horse do-do Long Haul sectors for those who are staying on.

Frankly whatever the reason for the overheard conversation as a 30 year plus ex'ish Long haul captain I really hope none of my colleagues of similar seniority would not be complaining in public about not getting a hearty send off ATM ...I'm saving my sympathy for the 250 plus junior pilots who without any doubt at all have been laid off at short notice without farewell trips..(and of course sympathy for the likes of TURIN's colleagues).

[Mr Mac]

Wiggy
Sorry to hear that, and best of luck with the VR with BA and your future, whatever you want that to be.

davidjohnson6
Yes I have had that done to me in early 90,s recession, and I made a deal with myself that when it came to my turn to run a company I would treat my staff better than that ,despite what they may or may not have done, and also despite what a HR Dept recommended. So far I have lost 3 staff since 1997 two for misconduct (24hrs notice) and one due to her not wishing to relocate (3 months pay after 4 years service). Obviously some people have left to further careers elsewhere, and depending on the role dictates their leaving notice period. Sales people typically in my sector are re-leaved pretty quickly due to ostensible poaching of clients (any half decent person will already have got contacts etc before resigning in my opinion) as a result we do not escort of the property that day but will wait 48 hrs. I believe it is important to treat people properly as it is your reputation as a company, and as a person that suffers any fall out, and if everyone leaves on good terms there is always a route back for all with out, as the Chinese say, a loss of face. We employ and indeed train good people so I would always look to take them back if asked.

[wiggy]

Thank you for that but commiserations not required...I had a good run and am quite happy to shuffle off into the sunset...

[rog747]

Gosh, that has made me feel quite sad and humble - Best wishes in your retirement Rog747

[Asturias56]

Just tried to book some flight from/to Italy on BA - some aren't bookable in fact they say they can't be found - even though, for example, they're flying the route BOL-LHR daily this last week. There's no central list of where the hell they are flying to either - or I couldn't find it.....

[DaveReidUK]

There is no problem finding or booking LHR-Bologna as far as I can see.

[BHX5DME]

Probably because Bologna is BLQ not BOL !

[DaveReidUK]

Yes - but if you type BOL, or the first few characters of any destination name, into the booking engine it will find (in this case) Bologna without any problem.

It's clever enough to understand that you don't really want to fly to Ballykelly. :O

[ETOPS]

BA haven't routinely "done" fire arches for retirements for years - if at all in living memory at LHR,

They did for me :ok: Sept 2013 coming back from JNB (Good grief that’s 7 years ago)

Only problem was I couldn’t properly make my welcome to Heathrow PA ...:{

[racedo]

It's quite common in large companies that an employee comes to work as usual one day, receives a phonecall from their manager asking them to come to a meeting room where HR are present (act as witness and ensure process is followed strictly in case employee decides to sue for unfair dismissal), pre-prepared "consultation" papers are handed over, employee is escorted to their desk to put belongings in cardboard box and then escorted off premises. Phonecall to walking out the building in 20 mins. No sympathy, no support, just HR following a process



Eh no

HR cannot act as a witness, they are employed by the company and it would automatically get chucked out at an Employment Tribunal. HR are part of the process not divorced from it.

The majority of redundancies at middle / senior level are compromise agreements where employee is met, talked to by HR and Line manager, provided a statement of potential payoffs and given time to consider this as well as an opportunity to consult an external solicitor.

Employee will still be paid during this consultation period until a second meeting where they can have a witness with them if required.

Majority of people happy to sign a compromise agreement as it is generally enhanced and way better that statutory redundancy.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

It's quite common in large companies that an employee comes to work as usual one day, receives a phonecall from their manager asking them to come to a meeting room where HR are present (act as witness and ensure process is followed strictly in case employee decides to sue for unfair dismissal), pre-prepared "consultation" papers are handed over, employee is escorted to their desk to put belongings in cardboard box and then escorted off premises. Phonecall to walking out the building in 20 mins. No sympathy, no support, just HR following a process

Never seen this done in the UK, seen it twice in the US when I have worked for a US owned multi national. The UK process is not that cold, and certainly not 20 mins as you say. What company are you saying does this in the UK?

Back on topic, will BA really have to fly 80% of their intended winter slots to hang onto them at LHR in 20/21?

[Confirmed Must Ride]

Back on topic, will BA really have to fly 80% of their intended winter slots to hang onto them at LHR in 20/21?

Airlines and airports have agreed to abide by a set of conditions together with slot coordinators under which an extension of the waiver of the “use-it-or-lose-it” rule could be applied for the entire 2020-2021 winter season.

[davidjohnson6]

During September, BA are operating a short haul schedule with frequencies significantly lower than 2019. From 1st October 2020, the schedule for tickets on sale seems to revert back to 2019 levels. Fare on rival reputable airlines on these routes are low which suggests demand remains weak and BA going from a 1x daily on dates up to 30-Sep to then going (for example) 5x daily beginning 01-Oct is definitely not credible. I'd like to book a ticket in October and ideally support BA but I just don't trust the schedule to be operated, and having my ticket rescheduled for a flight 6 hours different isn't what I want - and I have no desire to spend half an hour waiting on a phone arguing with someone why I should get a refund instead of a voucher if this happens

Anyone know when BA will publish accurate October schedules for short-haul ?

[Asturias56]

"Anyone know when BA will publish accurate October schedules for short-haul ?"

When the COVID vaccine is in place - right now we can expect on-going changes at a days notice until that turns up.

[racedo]

"Anyone know when BA will publish accurate October schedules for short-haul ?"

When the COVID vaccine is in place - right now we can expect on-going changes at a days notice until that turns up.

Only assummption of a plane at or around departure time you booked actually taking to the air is when on board and it has taken off, Other than that a timetable is aspirational.

[nguba]

During September, BA are operating a short haul schedule with frequencies significantly lower than 2019. From 1st October 2020, the schedule for tickets on sale seems to revert back to 2019 levels. Fare on rival reputable airlines on these routes are low which suggests demand remains weak and BA going from a 1x daily on dates up to 30-Sep to then going (for example) 5x daily beginning 01-Oct is definitely not credible. I'd like to book a ticket in October and ideally support BA but I just don't trust the schedule to be operated, and having my ticket rescheduled for a flight 6 hours different isn't what I want - and I have no desire to spend half an hour waiting on a phone arguing with someone why I should get a refund instead of a voucher if this happens

Anyone know when BA will publish accurate October schedules for short-haul ?

There's a familiar pattern where BA extends by a month its policy allowing passengers who don't want to fly to exchange their ticket for a voucher for future travel. Then a couple of weeks later, BA processes mass cancellations.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

"Anyone know when BA will publish accurate October schedules for short-haul ?"

When the COVID vaccine is in place - right now we can expect on-going changes at a days notice until that turns up.
This is true. It is also true that there will be huge doubts about
1) A rush to vaccinate as in let someone else be a guinea pig
2) IAG will run out of money long before we see a vaccine that will properly help matters

Commercially this is unknown territory. Boris today has announced "COVID wardens" and an incoherent new mish mash of conflicting policies which differ across the four home nations. The US is heading towards a race war and/or culture war, and the summer holiday season, such as it was, is almost over. With business travel quite sensibly nowhere right now, forward bookings across both long and short haul are nowhere near bouncing back, less so as winter arrives. Hence the only way to generate anything booking wise is to offer multiple daily options that suit the widest possible travel needs, knowing full well you'll operate likely only one and possibly the day before or afterwards. It's part of something vs. all of nothing. The timetable has been an aspiration only since March.

[davidjohnson6]

If an airline says to me "the aircraft and crew are all available; maybe we fly in the morning, or maybe we fly in the evening instead.... or perhaps we might not fly until tomorrow - we will tell you when we make up our minds", my reaction would be "OK, my time is valuable to me, my need to fly with your company is not critical and I don't have confidence that you will make a good faith attempt at what you said you would do in the marketing about a scheduled flight departure time, so I won't buy a ticket".

The last time I saw an airline giving complete fantasy flight times was in Somalia.... I don't expect a schedule 6 months away with Covid but just 3 weeks ahead of a flight date, major airlines in Europe should be able to communicate a roughly accurate plan

[Downwind_Left]

If an airline says to me "the aircraft and crew are all available; maybe we fly in the morning, or maybe we fly in the evening instead.... or perhaps we might not fly until tomorrow - we will tell you when we make up our minds", my reaction would be "OK, my time is valuable to me, my need to fly with your company is not critical and I don't have confidence that you will make a good faith attempt at what you said you would do in the marketing about a scheduled flight departure time, so I won't buy a ticket".

The last time I saw an airline giving complete fantasy flight times was in Somalia.... I don't expect a schedule 6 months away with Covid but just 3 weeks ahead of a flight date, major airlines in Europe should be able to communicate a roughly accurate plan

BA are not doing last minute cancellations to my knowledge. All schedule changes are made at least 2 weeks out, for obvious reasons.

Schedule changes are largely driven by customer booking behaviour and government restrictions. Neither of which are under the control of any airline or predictable with traditional revenue management models.

You only have to see the announcement by easyJet today that they will reduce flights to the Greek islands in the wake of UK government restrictions to see this isn’t solely a BA issue. Every airline is in the same boat. In an environment of massively reduced revenue and demand, the fastest way to lose money is to fly empty aircraft around the skies. And every airline is trying to limit losses.

Any airline schedule is no doubt published in the expectation that it will operate, they need it to do so in order to make morey. As the date approaches and it becomes apparent that it would be a massive financial loss, it’s not unreasonable to expect changes. This is unpredictable and unprecedented. All bets are off.

[davidjohnson6]

My argument is not that an airline should fly 5x per day when there are pax sufficient only to fill a single aircraft - I expect an airline to avoid flying fresh air around. However I don't expect an airline to claim it will fly 5x per day when it know full well there will likely be pax only for a 1x daily flight, and its rival airlines have chosen to ensure their promised schedules are credible based on current demand. Demand for flight will fall rapidly in the event of quarantine being imposed, but it very rarely quintuples overnight, even if quarantine is released

Perhaps advertising 2x daily which ends up as 1x daily 14 days ahead of schedule would be a fair compromise. Advertising fantasy schedules while rivals try to be credible leads to a distorted market

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

COVID 19 has distorted the market.
Current behaviour as per the above, is a genuine desperation to try and stop their businesses from failing. This is existential for much of the travel industry.

[SWBKCB]

COVID 19 has distorted the market.
Current behaviour as per the above, is a genuine desperation to try and stop their businesses from failing. This is existential for much of the travel industry.

But this behaviour is in itself distorting the market. It damages customer confidence and stops people travelling - they don't trust airlines to operate the flights they are offering, with issues around refunds making them even less likely to buy.

[Atlantic Explorer]

But this behaviour is in itself distorting the market. It damages customer confidence and stops people travelling - they don't trust airlines to operate the flights they are offering, with issues around refunds making them even less likely to buy.

Indeed. The industry hasn’t helped itself in many aspects along the way. The more this continues, the less likely people will travel. Customer confidence is bruised, to be kicked in the same spot again and again is not helping matters.

[Mr A Tis]

Exactly, most of us understand the difficulties from both the airline and passenger perspectives. However, the circus surrounding getting refunds etc has not helped any confidence in future bookings. If I know I am going to get an instant refund-maybe even automatic instant refund if the flight is cancelled , then I might be inclined to book. So far we have had book with us & if we cancel- good luck spend hours on telephones & wait sometimes up to 6 months for your money- on that basis why should people place further advanced bookings? (I'm not being specific to BA. here, but the industry in general)

[PAXboy]

As we all know, every company is fighting 2020 in the way that have fought previous probelms. The problem is that this problem is different to every problem since the Stock market crash of 1929. Therefore, no one knows how to deal with it.

The Telegraph reports today:
British Airways' owner IAG has been given a bloody nose by investors following fury over a £3.2m pay packet for departing boss Willie Walsh.

The firm was hit with a revolt by shareholders controlling 20.6pc of stock against Mr Walsh’s remuneration package, which includes an £833,000 annual bonus and a potential future £5.2m payout in shares. A further 7.8pc of shareholders withheld their votes at the firm's annual meeting.

It comes after BA put more than 22,500 staff on taxpayer-funded furlough and axed up to 12,000 jobs following a collapse in global air travel.

Although IAG’s remuneration report was by around four-fifths of voting shareholders, the company said it was disappointed at the scale of the revolt. It added: “The board will continue to engage with shareholders to fully understand their concerns."
To understand their concerns? Might that be to do with golden handshakes to people who have already earnt platinum amounts of money - whilst those at the bottom of the scale are being made redundant?

[racedo]

As we all know, every company is fighting 2020 in the way that have fought previous probelms. The problem is that this problem is different to every problem since the Stock market crash of 1929. Therefore, no one knows how to deal with it.

The Telegraph reports today:

To understand their concerns? Might that be to do with golden handshakes to people who have already earnt platinum amounts of money - whilst those at the bottom of the scale are being made redundant?

Er no WW has a contract with IAG, which should have ended 6 months ago, the business kept him on to try and survive during this.

Now he intends to leave, he is getting paid what was included in his contract, Unions might bitch about it BUT they also know that if they support the ignoring on contractual terms for 1 person then they ignore the contractual terms for all.

Have any BA staff been made redundant where their contractual terms were ignored ?

[TURIN]

Er no WW has a contract with IAG, which should have ended 6 months ago, the business kept him on to try and survive during this.

Now he intends to leave, he is getting paid what was included in his contract, Unions might bitch about it BUT they also know that if they support the ignoring on contractual terms for 1 person then they ignore the contractual terms for all.

Have any BA staff been made redundant where their contractual terms were ignored ?
No, but all BA staff were threatened with having their current contract and remuneration torn up, then offered a take it or leave it contract with substantially reduced remuneration. Some TU s have engaged with BA and come to a compromise. I see no reason why WW could not have done the same. In the interests of good faith and the survival of the IAG group. But of course, good faith and WW are not words that one tends to use in the same sentence.

[nguba]

I see a war of words have broken out between BASSA and Mixed Fleet Unite as the latter learned that BASSA proposed BA sack Mixed Fleet cabin crew first before EF & WW crew:

https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/09/11/bassa-mfu-unite-civil-war/

This really shouldn’t surprise anyone who has seen BASSA at work over the decades. Yet, it’s still amazing to see BASSA completely incapable of recognising the industry has changed.

[wiggy]

I see a war of words have broken out between BASSA and Mixed Fleet Unite as the latter learned that BASSA proposed BA sack Mixed Fleet cabin crew first before EF & WW crew:

.

Can BASSA/BA justify that course of action by claiming it's a rigid application of LIFO?

[PC767]

Can BASSA/BA justify that course of action by claiming it's a rigid application of LIFO?
As far as I am aware there is no LIFO in cabin crew agreements. MF do have a stand down clause in their contracts which I believe BASSA would have reminded BA of, if the matter was to save money fast.

[racedo]

No, but all BA staff were threatened with having their current contract and remuneration torn up, then offered a take it or leave it contract with substantially reduced remuneration. Some TU s have engaged with BA and come to a compromise. I see no reason why WW could not have done the same. In the interests of good faith and the survival of the IAG group. But of course, good faith and WW are not words that one tends to use in the same sentence.

Very big difference, he didn't WANT or NEED a new contract, he is retiring and leaving.

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

Very big difference, he didn't WANT or NEED a new contract, he is retiring and leaving.
And the rules are for the plebs and not the boardroom.

[racedo]

And the rules are for the plebs and not the boardroom.

He is getting rewarded for what he has previously done. There is NO future contract. Unions do no want contracts for work already done to be changed because it applies to all their members.

As IAG is still in business and has weathered the storm during lockdown, he was asked to ensure happens then his work is done.

Divorcing the reality of the future where BA cannot continue to have pay thousands of staff who will not work for the next year, may next two years is not something a single member of management would have wanted.

But intereresing in hearing the alternatives as to an IAG plan going forward when revenue doesn't exist and likely will not exist for a substantial proportion of next year.

[Walnut]

Does anyone know if all the rights issue was fully subscribed? It was sold at a 36p discount at the current share price, so does that mean the shares will drift down to about 165p?
At the rate cash is being burnt £20M pd ? The new money will not last long

[racedo]

Does anyone know if all the rights issue was fully subscribed? It was sold at a 36p discount at the current share price, so does that mean the shares will drift down to about 165p?
At the rate cash is being burnt £20M pd ? The new money will not last long

£20m per day means diddly squat because it doesn't tell you what it is. Deliberately so. Is it the excess of spending over revenue ? Is is just daily spend on pay?

Getting rid of X thousand will cost money but once it is done it is done and spending post this will reduce. Also means if someone on £40k a year than with NI/Pension/HR it is probably costing another £20k a year minimum to support so there are huge savings. When (IF) you look to replace in an upturn it will be on new terms as well. Longer term for the airline it makes economic sense but not for those employees who have been impacted.

[TOM100]

£20m per day means diddly squat because it doesn't tell you what it is. Deliberately so. Is it the excess of spending over revenue ? Is is just daily spend on pay?

Getting rid of X thousand will cost money but once it is done it is done and spending post this will reduce. Also means if someone on £40k a year than with NI/Pension/HR it is probably costing another £20k a year minimum to support so there are huge savings. When (IF) you look to replace in an upturn it will be on new terms as well. Longer term for the airline it makes economic sense but not for those employees who have been impacted.


And didn’‘t BA say at the recent AGM they would be cash flow neutral in Q4 (or something like that) obviously assuming situation doesn’t deteriorate.......

[TURIN]

Very big difference, he didn't WANT or NEED a new contract, he is retiring and leaving.

Many of my colleagues have also recently retired. On statuatory redundancy pay. Not multi million pound golden handshakes. It stinks!

[racedo]

Many of my colleagues have also recently retired. On statuatory redundancy pay. Not multi million pound golden handshakes. It stinks!

What was in their contract ? Did BA honour the contract ?

[PC767]

What was in their contract ? Did BA honour the contract ?

BA stated that all contracts other than flight crew and senior management were being ripped up, doesn’t matter what was in it, they simply are not interested in honouring the. Perhaps Walsh et al should also have had their contracts ripped up.

[racedo]

BA stated that all contracts other than flight crew and senior management were being ripped up, doesn’t matter what was in it, they simply are not interested in honouring the. Perhaps Walsh et al should also have had their contracts ripped up.

WW contract is over and there is none going forward.

So what were the words BA stated to employees.

[SeanM1997]

British Airways to start a new route between London Heathrow and Lahore from 12 October 2020 - 4x weekly flights on B787-8 aircraft

https://twitter.com/SeanM1997/status/1305796906698801153

[Robin757]

I see BA are getting criticised on the BBC news website for giving people vouchers when they expressly asked for a refund when going on line. As a former IT ticketing and reservations project manager when will these companies learn if people start shouting that something is not working properly then it damn well isn’t working properly and there is a software fault. Clearly this fault must be complex and occasional which is why it was never discovered during the functionality testing stage.
The post office is a classic example of this having taken to court postmasters who they said were engaged in fraud when it was their accountancy system was wrong.
BA by digging in and denying anything is wrong has the ultimate effect of putting people off booking anything (me included who wants to go to Zurich next year). How the hell will the aviation industry recover when the airlines behave like this?
I hope somebody from BA reads this and sorts this out including giving back these poor people their money. I might book my flight for next year then.

[HZ123]

Well they will not read your comments if they at work at BA as this is a barred site there! As ex BA I agree with so many of the comments the current situation has been handled poorly. It reminds me of the fiasco when BA opened Terminal 5, that was also a shambles. I acknowledge the times we are in but communication is still possible?

I very much expect there to be a phase 2 and 3 for further redundancies or contracting out. It is already evident that the 1000+ ramp operation will be outed.
l

[wiggy]

Well they will not read your comments if they at work at BA as this is a barred site there!


:confused:

Just for clarity/accuracy before that comment sets too many hares running.

It has certainly been possible to read/post on PPrune from within the confines of the BA "estate" and on company provided mobile devices, quite possibly still is...where there might have been issues/block on accessing using some of the PCs on site..

At least one BA manager was actively and openly contributing to the recruitment related sub-forum here at Pprune within the last year or two.

[JSCL]

I see BA are getting criticised on the BBC news website for giving people vouchers when they expressly asked for a refund when going on line. As a former IT ticketing and reservations project manager when will these companies learn if people start shouting that something is not working properly then it damn well isn’t working properly and there is a software fault. Clearly this fault must be complex and occasional which is why it was never discovered during the functionality testing stage.
The post office is a classic example of this having taken to court postmasters who they said were engaged in fraud when it was their accountancy system was wrong.
BA by digging in and denying anything is wrong has the ultimate effect of putting people off booking anything (me included who wants to go to Zurich next year). How the hell will the aviation industry recover when the airlines behave like this?
I hope somebody from BA reads this and sorts this out including giving back these poor people their money. I might book my flight for next year then.

Having recently tried to cancel some reward flights, the only option given to me was a voucher. No option for cash refund.

[Jamesair1]

Presumably you are talking about flights using Avios points.....I doubt whether you would be entitled to a cash refund. Maybe for any charges etc you paid money for.

[JSCL]

Presumably you are talking about flights using Avios points.....I doubt whether you would be entitled to a cash refund. Maybe for any charges etc you paid money for.
For the cash element (taxes/charges), only a voucher was offered.

[VickersVicount]

interesting to see Rossyia taking 7 G-BGYx registered ex-BA 744’s. Especially as they're RR powered.
Wonder what they’ll do with internal cabin. They’ll prob get them for a ‘steal’ and even if they last a few years with cheap Russian fuel and loads of spares it might not be a bad deal as very well maintained. Maybe they’ll take some BA pilots and crew?

[Wycombe]

As far as I can see all of Rossiya's existing 744 fleet have high-density seat fits (>500) and I believe they are used a holiday people-movers.

Some of Corsairs 744's, that are now also sat at Kemble may have been a better fit for that type of operation, but there could be lots of reasons why not!

[RealFish]

For the cash element (taxes/charges), only a voucher was offered.

I find that surprising. I have had to cancel two reward flights in recent months, the last one on Friday. The refunded Avios were back in my account as I put the phone down and there wasn't even a discussion about the cash element, the agent simply told me that it would be returned to my payment card within 7 days.

Excellent service (as usual).

[NWSRG]

I know with all that is going on, it's not exactly a priority...but is there any suggestions that one of the 744s (or more) could be held for preservation?

[wiggy]

I know with all that is going on, it's not exactly a priority...but is there any suggestions that one of the 744s (or more) could be held for preservation?

No, no serious thoughts that I have heard of...the balance sheet won't allow for it.

TBH, and this is a personal POV from somebody with >10000hrs on BA 744's - if there's any money sloshing around I would rather see it used to help keep staff in jobs than used on a preservation project.

[NWSRG]

No, no serious thoughts that I have heard of...the balance sheet won't allow for it.

TBH, and this is a personal POV from somebody with >10000hrs on BA 744's - if there's any money sloshing around I would rather see it used to help keep staff in jobs than used on a preservation project.

Totally get that...but even a donation to a museum would be a nice gesture. Although, if there's still value in the airframes, as the Rossiya deal suggests, then clearly that comes first. Just that when the dust on all this finally settles, it would be nice to have something to remember the 50 years of 747s at BA by.

[southside bobby]

The retro BOAC livery is one of the aeroplanes being taken by Rossiya.

[vctenderness]

The retro BOAC livery is one of the aeroplanes being taken by Rossiya.

Just a brainstorm thought. Would it be a good commercial move for them to retain the BOAC livery and gain a fair bit of publicity and a lot of ‘nostalgia’ business if marketed properly?

[wub]

Fake news apparently:

https://samchui.com/2020/09/21/rossiya-to-acquire-7-ex-british-airways-b747/#.X2jG4C2ZNUN

[USERNAME_]

BA Crew apparently placed into a Chinese "Quarantine Camp".

Link to the s*n, so likely 80% exaggerated, but bad nonetheless.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12758650/ba-cabin-crew-hong-kong-china-coronavirus/

[Cloud1]

BA Crew apparently placed into a Chinese "Quarantine Camp".

Link to the s*n, so likely 80% exaggerated, but bad nonetheless.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12758650/ba-cabin-crew-hong-kong-china-coronavirus/

What is bad about it? Sounds like a sensible move rather than allowing the crew member to bring the virus back in to the U.K. it may not be comfortable but I’m sure BA don’t really have much of a say over it.

[RedDragonFlyer]

BA Crew apparently placed into a Chinese "Quarantine Camp".

Link to the s*n, so likely 80% exaggerated, but bad nonetheless.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/12758650/ba-cabin-crew-hong-kong-china-coronavirus/

To describe it as a concentration camp is actually highly offensive. It's a camp thrown together from next to nothing to to house people quarantined in Hong Kong. Hong Kong quarantine rules are different to those in mainland China - though, no doubt, a positive result would have seen the same happen there too. She's in a private air-conditioned room that's clean and has its own bathroom.

To say that she is 'starving' is also nonsense. The article even shows a picture of a menu with multiple options of food for breakfast including what Hong Kong would consider to be a 'western option'. When she told the camp staff she was hungry she was given additional packet noodles and biscuits. I'm pretty sure the food isn't great, but it would be edible.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/09/homepage2/hong-kong-coronavirus-quarantine-diary-intl-hnk/index.html

[BAladdy]

Flights to BDA are to transfer from LGW to LHR at the start of the S21 schedule. Flights will operate daily from 28th March.

BA159 LHR 14:55 BDA 18:25 777 D
BA158 BDA 20:10 LHR 06:55 777 D

[caaardiff]

Alex Cruz to step down with immediate effect.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/business/british-airways-boss-alex-cruz-steps-down/ar-BB19VPnk?ocid=msedgdhp (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/business/british-airways-boss-alex-cruz-steps-down/ar-BB19VPnk?ocid=msedgdhp)

[southside bobby]

A powerful British hedge fund has reportedly taken a major stake in IAG.

[davidjohnson6]

Pension funds and insurers invest in companies for the long term. Hedge funds tend to take shorter term views.

If a hedge fund has a significant position in IAG, that tells me a significant change in the share price is expected in the not-too-distant future - ie there is an expectation that IAG will not be entering a period of stability and carry-on-as-before...

[MANFAN]

Booked flights with BA a few weeks ago to the TLS from LHR for business and now need to change the dates. Firstly, I wanted to see the times of the flights so imagine my surprise when visiting the app and website to find no flights at all available during the last week of October/beginning of November, yet I have a flight booked with them during this time...are BA customer services having more IT problems or should I contact them to ask why I haven't been notified my flight is potentially no longer operating...

[zfw]

Changed our shuttle to LHR on Tue, then cancelled our BGI flight on Wed. Wife spent 45 mins trying to get a refund which they then said they had emailed us with details....still waiting 4 hours later. And this email has apparently gone to the "refunds dept" and could take upto 7 days.
Airlines really are not doing themselves any favours here......after all it was they who cancelled the bloody flights.

[pcpmitch]

BA are changing flights left, right and centre at the moment but when they change a morning flight to an evening flight it really sods up any business plans.

As zfw says they really aren't helping themselves. I've claimed a refund and cancelled the trip.

[CabinCrewe]

Lots of Domestic changes/cancellations and reductions which will impact on connections

[Low Cost Eng]

Notified of cancellation of New Orleans flight on Friday 16th. Spoke to BA on the Saturday morning and all fares and hotel bookings back on my credit card by last Wednesday. BA were extremely helpful. Either some of you don’t understand what you want or can’t resist having a go at BA.

[Cuillin Hills]

Notified of cancellation of New Orleans flight on Friday 16th. Spoke to BA on the Saturday morning and all fares and hotel bookings back on my credit card by last Wednesday. BA were extremely helpful. Either some of you don’t understand what you want or can’t resist having a go at BA.


Agreed - BA paid back my deposit and refunded Avios, when balance was due on a trip to Canada in September, at the earliest opportunity and without delay.

[ezyBoh]

Read all the so called scare stories. Rang BA, answered within 10 mins, two bookings for Oct cancelled within 10 mins, refunded within three days. All very courteous and efficient. No 'please consider a voucher'. Well done and good luck.

[RealFish]

Read all the so called scare stories. Rang BA, answered within 10 mins, two bookings for Oct cancelled within 10 mins, refunded within three days. All very courteous and efficient. No 'please consider a voucher'. Well done and good luck.

Worked for me and no luck was required (second time this year, we've had to cancel). The only difference being that the Avios were back in my account as I put the phone down and the cash element was refunded and showing within the hour. Brilliant service!
I think the problem with BA is that it suffers from that 'tall poppy' thingy, where people must have a need to cut it down to size. I'll wager that many who moan about BA on, say, the Telegraph site, have never flown with them, or have not for many years. I've flown with them a dozen times a year for the past five or six years - the experience has been consistently good.

[southside bobby]

All aboard with Greggs...possibly.

[CabinCrewe]

All aboard with Greggs...possibly.
Or Waitrose or Tesco...

[Aksai Oiler]

Or Waitrose or Tesco...

not Mercadona?

[ericlday]

Possibly Lidl then......

[Alteagod]

Aldi or Home Bargains?

[fjencl]

Greggs and or Waitrose

[BAladdy]

BA’s franchise partner Sun-Air of Scandinavia has this week extended the suspension of all scheduled flights until at least the 30th August 2021.

[PAXboy]

Are these three LH machines -400 or -8s?

[DaveReidUK]

Are these three LH machines -400 or -8s?

They are -400s. Around half of their 19 747-8s are stored at either HAM or FRA, the remainder are still flying.

[SWBKCB]

Are these three LH machines -400 or -8s?

OK - give us a clue?

[DaveReidUK]

OK - give us a clue?

Fair point. It's a reference to a completely different thread.

See https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/636400-lufthansa-747-s-stuck-airport-they-can-t-legally-fly-out.html#post10913561.

[PAXboy]

SWBKCB Sorry. I was trying to ascertain if the Lufthansa 747s that were stored were the 747-400 model, or the later 747-8 (not -800!) For, if they were storing and planning to scrap the -8s it would indicate an even greater pessimism. Hearing that they are holding onto the -8s (for the time being) is good news.

[VickersVicount]

seems the storage shorthaul Airbuses on the move again. A321s from LHR and GLA going to MAD, the LHR A319s and LGW A320s going to GLA for rest of winter. Not exactly clear the reasons for reshuffle.

[Dannyboy39]

seems the storage shorthaul Airbuses on the move again. A321s from LHR and GLA going to MAD, the LHR A319s and LGW A320s going to GLA for rest of winter. Not exactly clear the reasons for reshuffle.
Aircraft need to be flown even within an AMM storage programme. Airbus actually reduced the storage requirements during the pandemic as some steps were fairly needless, like biweekly engine runs. It is probably full, but I’d guess that MAD is probably a healthier environment for an aircraft than a harsh winter in Scotland.

[DaveReidUK]

It is probably full, but I’d guess that MAD is probably a healthier environment for an aircraft than a harsh winter in Scotland.

That's no doubt true. But moving aircraft from London to Scotland would appear to contradict that logic.

[oldart]

Regarding storage of aircraft but without knowing, would it be cheaper to store them away from LHR?

[SWBKCB]

Glasgow is a BA Airbus engineering base.

[Wycombe]

BA look to be moving a fair few Airbus narrowbodies to PMI (presumably for storage) over the last few days.

[FFHKG]

Flight Radar shows 20+ BA airbuses have arrived and parked up at PMI in the last 3 days

[jijpc]

Jethro’s states that 30 A320 family will be going to PMI for the winter.

[WHBM]

Are they going to be parked on the second runway ? I recall in the 1980s when it was first built but not yet in use Spantax used it to park about a dozen of their old Convair 990s when they were retired.

[Expressflight]

I see that A380 G-XLEK is on its way into LHR this morning from Chateauroux. Has it been in storage there?

[davidjohnson6]

I see that A380 G-XLEK is on its way into LHR this morning from Chateauroux. Has it been in storage there?
Looks to have been in Châteauroux since 16 April, with only a brief trip back to LHR between 6-Aug and 9-Aug. The last commercial flight of G-XLEK was in late March

[Gurnard]

The latest plan involves moving the A380 fleet to the sunnier climes of Madrid and Teruel. Not so many are at CHR now.

[FFHKG]

Would have thought that Madrid would be too wet/cold for storage in the winter. Not unusual to see aircraft being de-iced there and have certainly passed through on a number of occasions when there has been snow on the ground. Don't forget it is situated at an elevation of 2,000ft.

[tictack67]

The latest plan involves moving the A380 fleet to the sunnier climes of Madrid and Teruel. Not so many are at CHR now.

Some A380 have gone today to TEV - Tereul about 300 from Madrid.