China Eastern in heavy turbulence

[Bonzo777]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/06/china-eastern-airlines-hits-turbulence-injures-20-170618101152218.html

[atakacs]

Is it me or does this seem to occur fairly regularly over China?

[Hotel Tango]

From what has been said in these forums in the past, obtaining clearance from ATC to circumnavigate is not very easy in China - even for the locals! ATC is not as flexible as other parts of the world. Then, there's also the culture and saving face mentality of Captains, especially the ex military guys. I recall my ATC days when western carriers would avoid build ups whilst some Asian and Eastern European carriers simply ploughed through what must have been the tiniest of gaps!

[birmingham]

This happened over Russia specifically Siberia near the city of Tyumen.
Tyumen is a city of nearly 500,000 with a full medical infrastructure and an airport that can and does accept a330s

[Hotel Tango]

Is it me or does this seem to occur fairly regularly over China?

China Eastern Airlines later said it was crucial passengers wear seatbelts as flights descend.

Forgive me if I thought it took place in Chinese airspace. Anyway what I said still applies. I have no idea how flexible ATC is in Siberian airspace because of military bases etc. Perhaps someone who regularly flies over those parts could comment.

[JammedStab]

Heard that someone wanted to divert to Magadan for a medical case and was refused to the airport not wanting a widebody jet.

[Basil]

Recollect almost entering Vietnam whilst avoiding Cb over China. ATC not pleased. Still better than flying into a Cu Nim.

[Phantom Driver]

From what has been said in these forums in the past, obtaining clearance from ATC to circumnavigate is not very easy in China - even for the locals! ATC is not as flexible as other parts of the world. Then, there's also the culture and saving face mentality of Captains, especially the ex military guys. I recall my ATC days when western carriers would avoid build ups whilst some Asian and Eastern European carriers simply ploughed through what must have been the tiniest of gaps!

Really ? From my recollection (before hanging up the old headset), getting Chinese ATC clearance to deviate around wx was not a major issue . Maybe in past days , but with the opening up of Chinese airspace , certainly not the headache it used to be . They could be more accommodating than some western controllers . LHR controllers told me off once for deviating back (after a cleared deviation) back towards airway track, about 5 miles away, passing Epsom, while maintaining 6000 ft cleared level . Lot of traffic on TCAS above and below , but nobody infringing the Dover departure. Lots of heavy purple stuff on the radar and equally nasty looking out of the window.

Reason for being told off ? I didn't request the deviation (back to track) . Reason for no request ? Unable to get a word in on the usual RT mayhem out of LHR , exacerbated by the wx complicating things.

Not blaming LHR departures ; they were stressed , as everyone else .

Re "ploughing through tiny gaps". It may look dicey on an ATC radar , but in the air , the opposite is often the case . Going into DFW one day , the controller was clearly quite nervous about our chosen course of action . But he was not seeing what we were seeing ; lots of blue sky in between the buildups , confirmed by the radar . (old saying- "one peep is worth a thousand sweeps") . Smooth ride through with nary a bump.

Then, there's also the culture and saving face mentality of Captains, especially the ex military guys.


I have to express my objection to that statement :rolleyes: Haven't met many ex-military guys who would knowingly and willingly fly through a CB with a load of grannies, grandads, kids . moms etc etc riding down the back.

By error , maybe....

[Rick777]

Speaking as an ex-military guy we gave CBs a wide berth. Basically the same rules as airlines.

[Hotel Tango]

Re China, I have no personal experience, I was simply repeating what I had read from pilots in these forums on some other turbulence related thread. Don't shoot the messenger!

As for my own past experiences, they were what they were. We were often surprised that when all western carriers would request to deviate, certain Eastern European and Asian carriers went on through. Just relating what I frequently observed. I guess they must have had vastly superior weather radar to the West then!

Your objection is noted, but the fact remains that the cultural aspect I mentioned is still (granted to a lesser degree now than before) prevalent in many Asian countries. It's their way of life as you must well know.

Oh, and I'm not ex London ATC ;)

[Hotel Tango]

Hold your horses guys, I believe you misunderstood.

Then, there's also the culture and saving face mentality of Captains, especially the ex military guys.

That was said in context with this carrier, CCA, and with the possible Asian/Chinese culture aspect in this incident. It was certainly not a general remark or viewpoint regarding all military pilots.

[birmingham]

Forgive me if I thought it took place in Chinese airspace. Anyway what I said still applies. I have no idea how flexible ATC is in Siberian airspace because of military bases etc. Perhaps someone who regularly flies over those parts could comment.

These Siberian routes are pretty busy being the main corridor east. In Summer the hot temperatures over the taiga can result in some nasty turbulence but there is usually plenty of advance notice in English from ATC and other crews. However reporting requirements are relatively infrequent over the lengthy Siberian leg.

Here is the link to Tyumen Center ?????? «????????????? ?????? ??????» ?. ?????? (http://www.gkovd.ru/filialy/filial-aeronavigatsiya-severa-sibiri-g-tyumen/)

China Eastern are Skyteam and Aeroflot operate to Tyumen, Ekaterinberg and Novosibisrk but in any case Tyumen is only about a couple of hours away from SVO

[ELAC]

Hold your horses guys, I believe you misunderstood.



That was said in context with this carrier, CCA, and with the possible Asian/Chinese culture aspect in this incident. It was certainly not a general remark or viewpoint regarding all military pilots.


Don't know where you get your info from, but some of it is a ways off.

1. CCA is Air China, not China Eastern. China Eastern is CES.

2. Not all that many ex-military pilots at CES, or indeed at most of the bigger Chinese carriers. The "military" thing, such as it is, was far more of an issue in a nation a bit to the east.

3. Weather deviations in China, (and in Eastern Russia) are not that difficult to arrange. Airspace restrictions are more of an issue than elsewhere, but ATC is much more co-operative now than it was 10-15 years ago.

4. For the typical pilot in China, the "face saving" decision when confronted with a CB at 12 o'clock is to deviate 10 miles farther off course than necessary, not to plow on through it regardless. There may be airlines where cinching down the straps and riding it out is the custom, but my bet is that none of them are based in China.

5. There are some habits that seem endemic in China which might have played a part in the event, but without knowing any details that's pure speculation. Hopefully the airline and CAAC will do a good job of investigating and make sure that any lessons learned are shared widely among the Chinese airlines.

[flyhardmo]

Hopefully the airline and CAAC will do a good job of investigating and make sure that any lessons learned are shared widely among the Chinese airlines.

Oh yeah, they will publish a report with safety recommendations. Bwahahahahah. You must be kidding right? The only thing that will happen is that some of the pilots will get fired/fined including those that may have been resting.

I've seen and continue to see Chinese based airlines fly straight into a CB at night. I can't understand Manderin so no idea if a deviation was requested but while I'm deviating around wx, a lot of them will fly through it.

Wx deviations in China are not easy sometimes but certainly not impossible if you are firm and suggest you will have to declare a pan. I heard KLM do this a week ago and the controller gave him what he wanted. Never had an issue with ATC deviating around wx over Siberia.

[Hotel Tango]

CCA is Air China, not China Eastern. China Eastern is CES.

Indeed, I was thinking CES and for reasons unknown typed CCA.

As for some of the other points, as I previously said, it came from other pilots in these very forums. Still, it won't be the first time pilots disagree in these forums! :)

[oicur12.again]

Elac

Well said.

I have not seen any cases of simply plunging thru storms in Chinese carriers and i have spent many hours in the cockpit of a main land Chinese airliner.

Chinese airlines are not as bad as westerners think and western airlines are not as good as westerners assume.

And the gap between the two is narrowing every day.

[ELAC]

Oh yeah, they will publish a report with safety recommendations. Bwahahahahah. You must be kidding right? The only thing that will happen is that some of the pilots will get fired/fined including those that may have been resting.

I've seen and continue to see Chinese based airlines fly straight into a CB at night. I can't understand Manderin so no idea if a deviation was requested but while I'm deviating around wx, a lot of them will fly through it.

Wx deviations in China are not easy sometimes but certainly not impossible if you are firm and suggest you will have to declare a pan. I heard KLM do this a week ago and the controller gave him what he wanted. Never had an issue with ATC deviating around wx over Siberia.

I wouldn't be quite so cynical. Having met some of the CAAC people with safety investigative functions over the years I'm pretty sure that the event will be looked at quite carefully. I doubt anyone will get fired, but unless the event proves to be a sudden onset of CAT my guess is that there will definitely be some punishments. A look at the track on FR24 shows a 45 degree turn at about the time of occurrence, so CAT would probably not be my first guess as to cause.

The real question, should my suspicions about certain endemic habits be correct, is whether CAAC and the airlines can be effective in getting the point across that these habits can cause events such as this, which are a far greater threat than any risks to health which may be the driving force behind such habits.

[Phantom Driver]

I've seen and continue to see Chinese based airlines fly straight into a CB at night. I can't understand Manderin so no idea if a deviation was requested but while I'm deviating around wx, a lot of them will fly through it.

Reminds me of that old observation- "one guy's light chop is another guy's severe turbulence" .

I recall cruising along one night , southbound over Japan , nice starry night . For some reason , a few aircraft were requesting "deviation due weather" . Nothing to be seen on our radar or looking out of the window. All we could assume was that maybe some guys were flying around with the radar gain set on "Auto" or "Cal" or whatever on your particular machine . This could sometimes paint a far dire situation than was actually present. I have seen badly calibrated radars throwing up ground returns when they shouldn't ; easily misinterpreted as weather by the inexperienced

My habit when serious weather work was required was to spend a great deal of time playing with manual gain/ manual tilt as well as auto. Manual often gave a far better picture of what was ahead.

For those who have flown the 744 , the radar system , though old , was pretty honest when giving you The Big Picture . Ended up on the T7 ; those digital systems were good , but they could be somewhat misleading at times....

[Loose rivets]

Hmmm . . . the 60's and FL170-180 LHR Spanish destinations, various.

No WX radar. Night time. Two and a half hours being thrashed - several times the horizon bar went off the scale. Blood and sick on the ceiling. Thrown below OCL, then out of the tops only to fall back into the morass.

I had never known fear like it.

One of the snippets:-

British Eagle had sold the jigs for putting a pressurised bulkhead in the nose of the Viscount - to Marshals IIRC. nn,000 quid. When finally we were obliged to fit a (12" dish) system, Marshals charged us about the same amount . . . per aircraft.


http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/270111-flying-through-cb-s.html#post3207786

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/270111-flying-through-cb-s.html#post3208304

Tell the kids of today . . .

[DaveReidUK]

British Eagle had sold the jigs for putting a pressurised bulkhead in the nose of the Viscount - to Marshals IIRC. nn,000 quid. When finally we were obliged to fit a (12" dish) system, Marshals charged us about the same amount . . . per aircraft.

Out of interest, how did you keep the pressure in prior to that ?

[Loose rivets]

I assume the entire nose was pressurised.


https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=vickers+viscount+nose+pressurization&client=firefox-b-ab&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL_IS188rUAhVpAcAKHTSJBIAQsAQILA&biw=1440&bih=746#q=vickers+viscount+nose+pressurization&tbm=isch&tbs=rimg:CSgQt_17arnm8IjhAFW4P9qVGWBX_1k4i9vUu8zo7QIIjGGgFrK tY19a4g8Svy-dO0udg6g9-jAqGK2AiChyswpyiW1yoSCUAVbg_12pUZYEaiHW3f69JVgKhIJFf-TiL29S7wRNrkFz1-rFNEqEgnOjtAgiMYaARFZqX5juvOUeyoSCWsq1jX1riDxEaX_1rY0aqk5fKh IJK_1L507S52DoR6-qhKkslOjkqEgmD36MCoYrYCBHSQcoASo4fjioSCYKHKzCnKJbXEbQVX8710S HY&imgrc=6m0fBhx2A2DrfM:

[flyhardmo]

Phantom driver said:
Reminds me of that old observation- "one guy's light chop is another guy's severe turbulence"

When you see a towering CB flashing away like the paparazzi at the Emmy awards, then there is no question as to the severity of what you will encounter by going straight through it. I've seen these guys fly through it with my own eyes, not by observing the TCAS, but visually.

ELAC
I wouldn't be quite so cynical. Having met some of the CAAC people with safety investigative functions over the years I'm pretty sure that the event will be looked at quite carefully. I doubt anyone will get fired, but unless the event proves to be a sudden onset of CAT my guess is that there will definitely be some punishments.

Working for a company that has had CAAC throw the book at us for minor infractions without a thorough investigation, then demand that the crew be fired for making a mistake in which ATC played a major part. Add to that the demerit points for foreign airlines. Recently Emirates has had their expansion in China halted for 6 months for minor violations. I think I have every right to be cynical.

[Nemrytter]

I have not seen any cases of simply plunging thru storms in Chinese carriers and i have spent many hours in the cockpit of a main land Chinese airliner.This will be your first case then.:ok:
The aircraft flew directly through a relatively large CB. CB altitude wasn't that high (it's not the tropics, after all) but it was still a sizable storm.

[underfire]

I have had this concern with enroute RNP procedures. While advertised as point to point, I have some real concerns on its use, specifically on the weather/turbulence issues.

[LYKA]

This will be your first case then.:ok:
The aircraft flew directly through a relatively large CB. CB altitude wasn't that high (it's not the tropics, after all) but it was still a sizable storm.

jm1kL07V8P0

Different place, different aircraft...But certainly focuses the mind!

[inducedrag]

Why not an enroute landing in such condition?

[Phantom Driver]

Why not an enroute landing in such condition?


Because the whole aviation industry would then come to a grinding halt.

Actually a nice video of TX activity at night . I once flew parallel to a line of storms across India during the monsoon season. Line stretched for 150 miles, with a nonstop display of fireworks lighting up the clouds from within . Spectacular, and beautiful to see at night . However, glad I wasn't heading north/south and having to make a decision where to penetrate the line .

Just for the benefit of the uninitiated , the guys in the video were doing a pretty good job of deviating around the cells. Look at the radar (as previously mentioned, worked great on the 744 ) and you see clearly defined gaps . Industry standard says to avoid cells at altitude by 20 miles , but we know that is not always possible....

Nevertheless , looked like a smooth ride on the flight deck , apart from a brief spell of (usually expected) rain/chop at the end as they cleared the edge of the system.

I bet the champagne continued to flow in First Class :O

[oicur12.again]

Nemrytter


“This will be your first case then.”

I will clarify my comments from my previous post. I am aware that Chinese airlines, like ALL airlines accidently stumble into CB’s occasionally.

I meant to be more specific. No Chinese crew I have ever shared a cockpit with has ever PURPOSEFULY entered a CB because of a “cultural aspect” or because of “face saving” as suggested by a previous post.

For what its worth, the WORST CB encounter I have close knowledge of from a previous employer resulted in serious injuries to several on board. The captain was Australian.

[neila83]

I'm not surprised. We continually read here about Asian pilots ploughing into CBs and the like, and yet there are a distinct lack of reported incidents, injuries or hulls being tossed about you would expect if that's true. I suspect confirmation bias on the part of those who have a preconceived opinion is all these reports are. Think of all those flights through SE Asia and the ITCZ everyday, and zero incidents, despite these supposedly suicidal pilots.

As far as I can tell, pilots in tropical countries spend far more time in precarious weather than pilots in developed nations, by accident of geography. I live in Colombia, and the conditions for flying all year round are appalling. And yet I know of not a single incident in my 2 years here due to penetrating a CB. I actually think that's incredible given how the satellite looks at times, and flights I've taken when we've been lit up like a disco from lightning on all sides at cruise, and yet not felt a bump, while weaving through towering clouds all around. It's actually incredibly impressive how they keep Colombian airspace going many days of the year.

Pilots in these parts of the world deserve more respect for what they go through day in, day out, maybe westerners could even learn something from them?

[oliver2002]

Some updates today:
"Despite being night time, it was not completely dark, clouds tops were clearly visible about 2000 feet below the aircraft, the weather radar produced yellow returns. The crew decided to fly over the cloud tops, the aircraft however encountered severe turbulence above the clouds. "

Yikes.
http://avherald.com/h?article=4aa7de17&opt=0

[up_down_n_out]

This happened over Russia specifically Siberia near the city of Tyumen.
Tyumen is a city of nearly 500,000 with a full medical infrastructure and an airport that can and does accept a330s

If you claim to know so much about Tyumen how the :mad: do you not also know it's NOT in Siberia??
It like Chelyabinsk, Perm & Ekaterinburg are in URAL Region, which has not changed in the last 2 centuries as being part of EUROPEAN RUSSIA!

[brak]

Russians would disagree. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Тюмень
Тюмень расположена на юге Западной Сибири
Translation: Tyumen is situated in the Western Siberia.

It is also quite clearly to the east of Ural mountains (though mountains do not really extend that far south).

[ricfly744]

Last mo, going to PEK, I had to declare a PAN to get my WX dev approved.

[WingNut60]

I think that you are both talking at cross purposes and are both sort of right (or wrong, whichever).

It depends if you are talking about Russian Federal Districts or any one of the historical perceptions of what constitutes "Siberia".

I was quite surprised to only find out recently that Siberia does not extend eastwards all the way to the Pacific and that the area north of Khabarovsk and east of Yakutsk, the home of the few remaining Siberian tigers, is not in fact part of geographic or political Siberia.