China Eastern in heavy turbulence
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From what has been said in these forums in the past, obtaining clearance from ATC to circumnavigate is not very easy in China - even for the locals! ATC is not as flexible as other parts of the world. Then, there's also the culture and saving face mentality of Captains, especially the ex military guys. I recall my ATC days when western carriers would avoid build ups whilst some Asian and Eastern European carriers simply ploughed through what must have been the tiniest of gaps!
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This happened over Russia specifically Siberia near the city of Tyumen.
Tyumen is a city of nearly 500,000 with a full medical infrastructure and an airport that can and does accept a330s
Tyumen is a city of nearly 500,000 with a full medical infrastructure and an airport that can and does accept a330s
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Is it me or does this seem to occur fairly regularly over China?
China Eastern Airlines later said it was crucial passengers wear seatbelts as flights descend.
From what has been said in these forums in the past, obtaining clearance from ATC to circumnavigate is not very easy in China - even for the locals! ATC is not as flexible as other parts of the world. Then, there's also the culture and saving face mentality of Captains, especially the ex military guys. I recall my ATC days when western carriers would avoid build ups whilst some Asian and Eastern European carriers simply ploughed through what must have been the tiniest of gaps!
Reason for being told off ? I didn't request the deviation (back to track) . Reason for no request ? Unable to get a word in on the usual RT mayhem out of LHR , exacerbated by the wx complicating things.
Not blaming LHR departures ; they were stressed , as everyone else .
Re "ploughing through tiny gaps". It may look dicey on an ATC radar , but in the air , the opposite is often the case . Going into DFW one day , the controller was clearly quite nervous about our chosen course of action . But he was not seeing what we were seeing ; lots of blue sky in between the buildups , confirmed by the radar . (old saying- "one peep is worth a thousand sweeps") . Smooth ride through with nary a bump.
Then, there's also the culture and saving face mentality of Captains, especially the ex military guys.
Haven't met many ex-military guys who would knowingly and willingly fly through a CB with a load of grannies, grandads, kids . moms etc etc riding down the back. By error , maybe....
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Re China, I have no personal experience, I was simply repeating what I had read from pilots in these forums on some other turbulence related thread. Don't shoot the messenger!
As for my own past experiences, they were what they were. We were often surprised that when all western carriers would request to deviate, certain Eastern European and Asian carriers went on through. Just relating what I frequently observed. I guess they must have had vastly superior weather radar to the West then!
Your objection is noted, but the fact remains that the cultural aspect I mentioned is still (granted to a lesser degree now than before) prevalent in many Asian countries. It's their way of life as you must well know.
Oh, and I'm not ex London ATC
As for my own past experiences, they were what they were. We were often surprised that when all western carriers would request to deviate, certain Eastern European and Asian carriers went on through. Just relating what I frequently observed. I guess they must have had vastly superior weather radar to the West then!
Your objection is noted, but the fact remains that the cultural aspect I mentioned is still (granted to a lesser degree now than before) prevalent in many Asian countries. It's their way of life as you must well know.
Oh, and I'm not ex London ATC
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Hold your horses guys, I believe you misunderstood.
That was said in context with this carrier, CCA, and with the possible Asian/Chinese culture aspect in this incident. It was certainly not a general remark or viewpoint regarding all military pilots.
Then, there's also the culture and saving face mentality of Captains, especially the ex military guys.
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Here is the link to Tyumen Center ?????? «????????????? ?????? ??????» ?. ??????
China Eastern are Skyteam and Aeroflot operate to Tyumen, Ekaterinberg and Novosibisrk but in any case Tyumen is only about a couple of hours away from SVO
Last edited by birmingham; 19th Jun 2017 at 11:02.
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Don't know where you get your info from, but some of it is a ways off.
1. CCA is Air China, not China Eastern. China Eastern is CES.
2. Not all that many ex-military pilots at CES, or indeed at most of the bigger Chinese carriers. The "military" thing, such as it is, was far more of an issue in a nation a bit to the east.
3. Weather deviations in China, (and in Eastern Russia) are not that difficult to arrange. Airspace restrictions are more of an issue than elsewhere, but ATC is much more co-operative now than it was 10-15 years ago.
4. For the typical pilot in China, the "face saving" decision when confronted with a CB at 12 o'clock is to deviate 10 miles farther off course than necessary, not to plow on through it regardless. There may be airlines where cinching down the straps and riding it out is the custom, but my bet is that none of them are based in China.
5. There are some habits that seem endemic in China which might have played a part in the event, but without knowing any details that's pure speculation. Hopefully the airline and CAAC will do a good job of investigating and make sure that any lessons learned are shared widely among the Chinese airlines.
Last edited by ELAC; 20th Jun 2017 at 01:10.
Hopefully the airline and CAAC will do a good job of investigating and make sure that any lessons learned are shared widely among the Chinese airlines.
I've seen and continue to see Chinese based airlines fly straight into a CB at night. I can't understand Manderin so no idea if a deviation was requested but while I'm deviating around wx, a lot of them will fly through it.
Wx deviations in China are not easy sometimes but certainly not impossible if you are firm and suggest you will have to declare a pan. I heard KLM do this a week ago and the controller gave him what he wanted. Never had an issue with ATC deviating around wx over Siberia.
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CCA is Air China, not China Eastern. China Eastern is CES.
As for some of the other points, as I previously said, it came from other pilots in these very forums. Still, it won't be the first time pilots disagree in these forums!
Elac
Well said.
I have not seen any cases of simply plunging thru storms in Chinese carriers and i have spent many hours in the cockpit of a main land Chinese airliner.
Chinese airlines are not as bad as westerners think and western airlines are not as good as westerners assume.
And the gap between the two is narrowing every day.
Well said.
I have not seen any cases of simply plunging thru storms in Chinese carriers and i have spent many hours in the cockpit of a main land Chinese airliner.
Chinese airlines are not as bad as westerners think and western airlines are not as good as westerners assume.
And the gap between the two is narrowing every day.
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Oh yeah, they will publish a report with safety recommendations. Bwahahahahah. You must be kidding right? The only thing that will happen is that some of the pilots will get fired/fined including those that may have been resting.
I've seen and continue to see Chinese based airlines fly straight into a CB at night. I can't understand Manderin so no idea if a deviation was requested but while I'm deviating around wx, a lot of them will fly through it.
Wx deviations in China are not easy sometimes but certainly not impossible if you are firm and suggest you will have to declare a pan. I heard KLM do this a week ago and the controller gave him what he wanted. Never had an issue with ATC deviating around wx over Siberia.
I've seen and continue to see Chinese based airlines fly straight into a CB at night. I can't understand Manderin so no idea if a deviation was requested but while I'm deviating around wx, a lot of them will fly through it.
Wx deviations in China are not easy sometimes but certainly not impossible if you are firm and suggest you will have to declare a pan. I heard KLM do this a week ago and the controller gave him what he wanted. Never had an issue with ATC deviating around wx over Siberia.
The real question, should my suspicions about certain endemic habits be correct, is whether CAAC and the airlines can be effective in getting the point across that these habits can cause events such as this, which are a far greater threat than any risks to health which may be the driving force behind such habits.
I've seen and continue to see Chinese based airlines fly straight into a CB at night. I can't understand Manderin so no idea if a deviation was requested but while I'm deviating around wx, a lot of them will fly through it.
I recall cruising along one night , southbound over Japan , nice starry night . For some reason , a few aircraft were requesting "deviation due weather" . Nothing to be seen on our radar or looking out of the window. All we could assume was that maybe some guys were flying around with the radar gain set on "Auto" or "Cal" or whatever on your particular machine . This could sometimes paint a far dire situation than was actually present. I have seen badly calibrated radars throwing up ground returns when they shouldn't ; easily misinterpreted as weather by the inexperienced
My habit when serious weather work was required was to spend a great deal of time playing with manual gain/ manual tilt as well as auto. Manual often gave a far better picture of what was ahead.
For those who have flown the 744 , the radar system , though old , was pretty honest when giving you The Big Picture . Ended up on the T7 ; those digital systems were good , but they could be somewhat misleading at times....
Psychophysiological entity
Hmmm . . . the 60's and FL170-180 LHR Spanish destinations, various.
No WX radar. Night time. Two and a half hours being thrashed - several times the horizon bar went off the scale. Blood and sick on the ceiling. Thrown below OCL, then out of the tops only to fall back into the morass.
I had never known fear like it.
One of the snippets:-
British Eagle had sold the jigs for putting a pressurised bulkhead in the nose of the Viscount - to Marshals IIRC. nn,000 quid. When finally we were obliged to fit a (12" dish) system, Marshals charged us about the same amount . . . per aircraft.
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/27011...ml#post3207786
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/27011...ml#post3208304
Tell the kids of today . . .
No WX radar. Night time. Two and a half hours being thrashed - several times the horizon bar went off the scale. Blood and sick on the ceiling. Thrown below OCL, then out of the tops only to fall back into the morass.
I had never known fear like it.
One of the snippets:-
British Eagle had sold the jigs for putting a pressurised bulkhead in the nose of the Viscount - to Marshals IIRC. nn,000 quid. When finally we were obliged to fit a (12" dish) system, Marshals charged us about the same amount . . . per aircraft.
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/27011...ml#post3207786
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/27011...ml#post3208304
Tell the kids of today . . .
Out of interest, how did you keep the pressure in prior to that ?
