SAS Ireland SAIL [Archive] - Page 3

Klimax

2nd Nov 2018, 21:23

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? ;)

https://standby.dk/fleksibilitet-er-kodeordet-for-flyselskabers-fremtid/
"I fremtiden bliver det nødvendigt at tilpasse sig, hvis virksomheden skal have en chance for at klare sig i en benhård konkurrence på et globalt arbejdsmarked. Kodeordet på alle niveauer er fleksibilitet.”

“Manden” er et typisk SAS ledelses fjols. Fleksibilitet er one way. Skod loen og skod ansaettelsesvilkaar. Det er et kortlevet projekt med en klovn som ham i front. Men det er helt normalt for SAS at have denne slags usymptatiske management fjolser ansat.

matt283

2nd Nov 2018, 22:27

Klimax

3rd Nov 2018, 20:23

https://www.laopiniondemalaga.es/malaga/2018/11/01/denuncia-subcontrata-aerolinea-sas-tripulantes/1044018.html

Meanwhile in Spain - union goes to the court with CAE for having 26 cabin crew out of 40 employed in Malaga working without a contract of employment :eek:

This is SAS management for you. Not thinking ahead, and considering the majority owners are the three Scandinavian goverments, somebody will eventually have to answer to the tax avoidence going on, and rubber stamped by the SAS CEO and board of directors.

OMAAbound

8th Nov 2018, 09:11

Hi All

First off, apologies if this is in the wrong part and if it’s been mentioned before, but I was unable to find anything.

Im interested in the new SAS Heathrow Op’s, and have a few question if anyone could answer them.

- Roster , it says 5 on 4 off, what does a typical roster look like? Is it mainly 1/2/3 sector days flying between LHR and Scandinavia?

- Night Stops , how many? With a young family home life is important for me

- Pay , are you employed on a self employed basis like some other European companies?

- Standby , is there any?

- Hours , how many a month is a new starting Capt likely to be doing a month?

If anyone has anything more to add, greatly appreciated

OMAA

Msry

9th Nov 2018, 00:05

Thinking of joining SAIL as Cabin Crew, any possibility any of you could give me an insight into it? Pros and cons! Thanks in advance =)

USERNAME_

9th Nov 2018, 18:49

Thinking of joining SAIL as Cabin Crew, any possibility any of you could give me an insight into it? Pros and cons! Thanks in advance =)

Pros:
- Claim to work for SAS on your CV
- If CAE buck their ideas up, could be a great company to work for
- It’s not Ryanair

Cons:
- Pretty much everything else

Airline_pilot26

11th Nov 2018, 18:21

Any idea where and what are they going to fly?

LHR,
ARN,
OSL,
CPH,
AGP,
MAN,
DUB

night stop in ARN e OSL mostly minimum rest or standby

Airline_pilot26

11th Nov 2018, 18:26

Pros:
- Claim to work for SAS on your CV
- If CAE buck their ideas up, could be a great company to work for
- It’s not Ryanair

Cons:
- Pretty much everything else

Sorry Ryanair pay better (around 1000 pounds for same flight time) and you back always in home...

Msry

11th Nov 2018, 18:36

rubbish company, salary and people!
All crew are ready to write reports for fire you.
Is a really small company no connected with the main SAS... the contract is with CAE and you work as ACMI.
The roster 5/4 in LHR starts almost early morning than away 5 days and the last one late finish.
During the recruitment CAE promise to have daily flights from LHR, but I have just 3 or 4 in total.
Always issues with the salary (they try to pay less than what you must have from the contract).
90 % of the pilots resigns after short time.

What do you mean regarding the pay? I’m not sure how different pilots contracts are to the Cabin Crews, how do they actually treat staff, CAE themselves? And of course do you fly to any other airports not stated above from any other base?

Trying to to figure out what is best, and any advice is welcome!

USERNAME_

12th Nov 2018, 07:23

What do you mean regarding the pay? I’m not sure how different pilots contracts are to the Cabin Crews, how do they actually treat staff, CAE themselves? And of course do you fly to any other airports not stated above from any other base?

Trying to to figure out what is best, and any advice is welcome!

Think all the answers you need are in the posts above. I am Cabin Crew myself and have found in the past airlines that treat their pilots like sh*t treat their cabin crews even worse and that seems to be the case here. I challenge you to scroll up and find a post about SAIL which is positive.

Friends at SAIL as CC say they are regularly paid late, and often underpaid every month, with per diems and commission missing.

Also all fees that were paid for by CAE during training were taken back from their wages over the course of a few months.

Hope this helps.

Airline_pilot26

12th Nov 2018, 10:57

Think all the answers you need are in the posts above. I am Cabin Crew myself and have found in the past airlines that treat their pilots like sh*t treat their cabin crews even worse and that seems to be the case here. I challenge you to scroll up and find a post about SAIL which is positive.

Friends at SAIL as CC say they are regularly paid late, and often underpaid every month, with per diems and commission missing.

Also all fees that were paid for by CAE during training were taken back from their wages over the course of a few months.

Hope this helps.
Absolutely pilots and CC are considered rubbish in this company only some Ryanair CC feel better (not for the salary) only for the workload.
They have attitude as big airline where you are only a number, but they fleet is 7 A320.... the managers in LHR are worried only to see how you wear the uniform, never about the environment of work and your personal life (anyway the cabin managers are most ex Ryanair or Monarch... you can imagine how they manage the crew)

LEMG

12th Nov 2018, 22:15

In this thread you can only find 15 to 20 percent of real information, the rest are people who are disillusioned for one reason or another easily distinguishable because of their way of expressing themselves. It's a shame, but that's the way it is.
In my opinion it does not provide much help.
On the other hand something quite usual in these forums.

Klimax

12th Nov 2018, 22:35

Airline_pilot26

13th Nov 2018, 18:20

KyleRB

13th Nov 2018, 19:25

Not always, sometimes what you read is the real picture of one company.... and if a lot people write similar opinions.... maybe something is true

Possibly true but also posts often by a handful of jaded individuals or those with a personal agenda have it easy these days on social media. They hide behind anonymity and make all sorts of allegations and statements without taking personal responsibility for their veracity. By that I mean have the balls to put your real name at the end of the post and stand by your comments and don’t be like all the other keyboard warriors!

biggi

14th Nov 2018, 17:56

Is there anyone here who actually flies for SAIL as an FO?
;)

Navetta

21st Nov 2018, 14:07

Possibly true but also posts often by a handful of jaded individuals or those with a personal agenda have it easy these days on social media. They hide behind anonymity and make all sorts of allegations and statements without taking personal responsibility for their veracity. By that I mean have the balls to put your real name at the end of the post and stand by your comments and don’t be like all the other keyboard warriors!

Interesting you too don't put your name, anyway I know different pilots in SASI and all are unhappy and very upset by the conditions of rostering, salary and management..... in the last 2 weeks 3 captains and about 5 FO left the company... in a small company where really a lot people follow to resign is something wrong for sure!!!! Some rumours talk also about racism (send in email to the employees) and bad attitude reserved to foreign people from some "superior" pilots...

austrian71

21st Nov 2018, 17:22

Navetta is absolutely right with racism. I was in their screenig, first fact: TM smiled when he mentioned how many pilots were failed after OCC course, he stated that they did good in failing many guys. second fact: Monarch Pilots club. I absolutely hate this kind of attitude and told them during my interview, that its a monarch club and not fitting to me. Got no invitation to sim, but passed two other screenings with decent operators. Brexit, thats the way. Sorry for all the nice and good U.K. guys, that for sure also exist, but this cpy, no thanks!

ATIS

21st Nov 2018, 18:23

LEMG

21st Nov 2018, 18:31

I think ATIS is one of the few who provide real information

ATIS

21st Nov 2018, 19:26

I keep my ear close to the ground as I am hoping to return to UK in 2yrs time.

Its the disorganisation on CAEs part that has caused a lot of the problems. The pay was late a couple of months ago, and CAE state it won't happen again. CAE included compensation of £125 to each crew member.

Its not all bad news. I hear that SAIL received the highest rating possible by SAS auditors. May they continue to operate to the highest standards.

Airline_pilot26

21st Nov 2018, 22:11

FACT. Monarch guys are now in the minority. Yes at the beginning, many were hired after the airline went bust. SAIL just didn’t have enough pilots due to the poor conditions. But many of these Monarch guys have moved on.

FACT. English guys are in the minority. Most are European. (Maybe for this winter, this will be reveresed as Air Tanker pilots have been seconded to SAIL, not enough work at Air Tanker this winter)

FACT. Those who have failed OCC did so because of their performance, not because of where they’re from.

The racism card is being played by a disgruntled employee who failed a command course (so I’ve heard 2nd hand)

Head of Training are Monarch guys, and they just want to maintain a high standard. How dare they.....

Good luck to all that apply.

Nice talking ATIS are you a Monarch FO?

The managers give CAE a really good economical income to follow train a lot pilots.

How I know appears that only all ex Monarch guys have standards and never have any problem how this is possible? How many Monarch pilots fail the recruitment?

If you don’t like someone you can build and show everything (low standards, bad attitude...) the picture that this company give isn’t high standards, but bad “punish policy”.

As I know all examines and instructors are ex Monarch except one or two...

I am SFI/SFE -TRI/TRE and it is easy let people fail if you want. Talk of standard it is nice, but did you really follow the “real” standards???? Or something that is customised for a company or from someone?

The problems are not connected only with the Monarch guys (they try to build a small copy of the previous company) or with (high standards), but is a bad organisation and bad work environment for sure.

ATIS talk about something connected with racism and prove that this in some way happen and anyway be offensive for someone...
Anyway as how I know from other ex SASI pilots, most resigns don’t be fired by the company...

3MTA3

22nd Nov 2018, 05:26

I must say that when I was there I heard about these racism allegations. It was coming from some isolated individuals, the same idiots you will find in every airline. I did my sim training with the former Monarch head of training (who left SASI now) and a Monarch TRE and they both were true gentlemen.

Navetta

22nd Nov 2018, 08:12

ATIS you’re facts are interesting, but the fact of really high percentuale of pilots and CC resign from SASI it’s not connected with the standards, but with other factors.
In Lufthansa, in BA or in EasyJet they have also high standards, but the % of people that resign is really low.
The environment of work like the quality of life are fondamental, if you don’t give that, yout must try to give something different, like Chinese companies, big salaries.
Is a fact that SASI doesn’t give any of those it is obvious that people join the company and after short time resign.

USERNAME_

22nd Nov 2018, 08:16

ATIS you’re fact are interesting, but the fact of really high percentuale of pilots and CC resign from SASI it’s not connected with the standards, but with other factors.
In Lufthansa, in BA in EasyJet they have also high standards, but the % of people that resign are low.
The environment of work like the quality of life are fondamental, if you don’t give that, yout must try to give something different, like Chinese companies, big salaries.
Is a fact that SASI doesn’t give any of those it is obvious that people join the company and after short time resign.

BA have one of the highest turnovers of CC, hence the new starter courses 3/4 times a month.

Navetta

22nd Nov 2018, 08:37

BA have one of the highest turnovers of CC, hence the new starter courses 3/4 times a month.

Sorry, but for the pilots looks different

KyleRB

22nd Nov 2018, 10:24

Interesting you too don't put your name, anyway I know different pilots in SASI and all are unhappy and very upset by the conditions of rostering, salary and management..... in the last 2 weeks 3 captains and about 5 FO left the company... in a small company where really a lot people follow to resign is something wrong for sure!!!! Some rumours talk also about racism (send in email to the employees) and bad attitude reserved to foreign people from some "superior" pilots...

I’m not the one making allegations so have no reason to put my name down. You most definitely are making serious allegations but are doing so namelessly! Were you fired by SAIL or failed a sim check? I do not work for the company but do know a few pilots there.

Navetta

22nd Nov 2018, 15:35

I was interested to join this company, but as I have 2 friends that resign from SASI (obviously not happy for all reasons that I wrote) and others that still inside (also unhappy for the bad attitude of the CAE Managment and some colleagues), anyway Malaga base appear much better place where work (but is totally full) LHR is bad work environment for sure.
As I have good connections in SASI, for the reason that at the moment I work in Emirates I decided to stay away from this company, the guy that you talk about is a FO that left Qatar airways and I suppose he have quite good standards. That guy “fail” his interview for the command not for lack of skills, but because have different frictions with someone, as he have good standards still be there also if he is under pressure every day, he isn’t white and as you can understand don’t accept the “racist” humor.
It is strange that also an Italian captain that applied to be instructor after a couple of week resign (and the training manager use to say in the company that for his strong Italian accent can’t be part of the training team)... but this isn’t racism...
I you have good connections for sure you know that several people resigned and soon more will resign also.
CAE already planned multiple OCC, maybe is a good way for make money as someone wrote in other post...

austrian71

23rd Nov 2018, 11:01

Its very unprofessional to misuse the power as an TRI/TRI / Managementpilot. I am myself TRI, exTRE and know very well, that the best pilot with the best standard can be failed, I not believe these "crap" of below SASI standart be ex Monarch club aviatiors, we are all human and able to perform in the right environment - thes guys are the last I can accept, very poor !! Its a shame !! Stay away from them!

BestSpanish

24th Nov 2018, 21:50

Good evening everyone, I resigned shot time ago from SAS Ireland because I recover a better job. :)
What is written inside this post about environment, pilots that follow to resign, kingdom of some Monarch, racism and bad CAE management:

are real and really difficult to accept

My salary most of the time was wrong, always for a lot less money and the time that we received the extra money was because the salary arrived really late and also really wrong.
I flew with all possible pilots, all appear polite really gentlemen and nice, but it’s just a facade, are always ready to f*** you, the high “standards” is a big fake (usually they have a lot not written SOP that you have to follow). If you comment that on the FCOM is different the usually answer is (in Monarch was like that and we will change OM and FCOM soon because are made for Aer Lingus.
Must follow SOP of some guys and not OM and FCOM if this is definition of high standards??????
This company is an ACMI e you don’t have anything with SAS, the uniform is SAS but no friezes, only a fake wing CAE for the jacket impossible be in one company that the main SAS hate and passengers don’t recognise and also don’t like.
To be honest I always like to be in contact with all pilots from any nations, but for the first time I’m really happy to resign and I really feel good.
Crazy, bizarre environment, for me a small company must be a family no a place that you hate, 90% of the pilots are ready to resign 10% are the remaining Monarch pilots..... :D :)

LEMG

25th Nov 2018, 19:14

Without entering into what may or may not be true, which I honestly believe may be little, your style betrays you ...

BluSdUp

25th Nov 2018, 20:04

I was considering taking a flight with SAIL, I just cancelled!

KyleRB

25th Nov 2018, 21:02

I was considering taking a flight with SAIL, I just cancelled!

What!!?? This is all getting bizarre!!

What is fairly clear is that there are some seriously jaded ex employees on this thread!

ATIS

25th Nov 2018, 23:48

Ha ha, creating a new profile to throw us off the scent.

Are you one of the recently booted out Captains with laughable standards? I hope not, because the stories I’ve heard have been eye watering. Those Captains should be ashamed of themselves. They do not deserve 4 stripes. Good luck in your new job.

matt283

26th Nov 2018, 03:31

From what I can see there is a lot of frustration in LHR and how about working environment in AGP?

Crosswind Limits

26th Nov 2018, 08:25

I think Smooth Airperator has hit the nail on the head! As a former Monarch FO who joined Primera and very recently joined SAIL I recognise a lot of what he says. At Primera there were plenty of cultural issues, miscommunication and misunderstandings but mostly colleagues got on together and actually produced a reasonably good working environment. Standards at Primera were either satisfactory or much better but a few of my colleagues were not up to the task. They passed the joke of a selection via Skype and a few online tests only then to be failed in the sim on OCC or on a line check. I suspect dealing with cultural challenges at SAIL and a better recruitment process would help.

The trainers I knew at Monarch were almost exclusively friendly and very able instructors. They had high standards but were practical as well. They were always fair and I don’t expect that has changed. However, if you are a charlatan, you will be found out!

172_driver

26th Nov 2018, 08:57

I was considering taking a flight with SAIL, I just cancelled!

You never know where they'll show up, got on a Scandi domestic recently operated by SAIL.

Sounds like a sour mix of cultures without a firm hand (such as in Ryanair) to steer people right.

If noticed by the majority customers, I don't know. Tbh, my one and only SAIL flight was pleasant. Nice crew, cabin and flight deck. I still don't like the way they're dumping our own fair trade in Scandi though.

Airbus.driver.

26th Nov 2018, 09:48

After my application, I received the contractual terms and the possible average monthly salary for Captain position is:
Basic salary 6,842 £ +
Overnight (10 nights) 510 £ +
Block hours (60 hours) 1,620 £
Total: 8,972 £ gross
+ Benefits
After tax doesn’t look really high to live in the London area.
Someone knows what the benefits are?
I asked several times, but I haven’t received an answer.

Crosswind Limits

26th Nov 2018, 11:06

Pension and partially subsidised private healthcare as well. 5/4 roster. New A320NEOs and SAS staff travel after 6 months. Operating out of LHR can be a pain but the newly rebuilt T2 is very nice indeed.

Flocks

26th Nov 2018, 12:59

Italians, French and Spaniards operate in more of a 'man and boy' style (often dictating and not truly appreciating the value of junior colleagues - sorry it's true) and are more by the book. A good thing and bad thing in that they seldom think outside the box. It's this one thing that is often the source of conflict. The English style is not as 'by the book' but can often be more practical (IMHO having flown at 5 Airbus operators over the world).

Ofc we all have different experience, but I canno t disagree more.

Working currently in Uk and been with 3 differents operator before (not Uk), Uk is for me the far more about strict SOP, by the book and no manual flight, after I agree the CRM was usually the best with less dictator captain.

Now I understand all those cultural difference not easy if people are not use to it and little bit open about the world.

3MTA3

27th Nov 2018, 14:18

These useless pilots with poor standards didn't just jump in a SASI airplane and fail their training. They've been interviewed, went trough a simulator screening done by CAE who is running SASI. So who's to blame? CAE who, in this case ,is not able to select pilots for their own airline, or the training department being unfair to some pilots who then are not that useless?

R1ddle

30th Nov 2018, 09:58

Reading the last two pages is hilarious....

For anyone considering joining:
Things have vastly improved. Hotels are now industry standard and T&C's are now pretty good. Still the only real problem is CAE who learn very slowly, but to be fair, every company has its managers that cause problems. Certainly in LHR the union is doing a good job of ensuring they abide by UK law - a major clause included in the contract.

Standards? Yes standards expected are high, but more than that, much more than that - you attitude is expected to be professional and positive. If you suggest that you are going to ignore SOP's you will find yourself some grief.

Brits vs Europeans? I can only express a view from the Brits side - yes many of us have not been used to flying with so many europeans, but really it only means OUR communication needs to be better and yes that takes effort - but can only serve to improve our stds as pilots.

SOP's are SOP's if you don't like a company's SOP's don't join, we all know BA has innovative SOP's but i doubt anyone would join and then actively say they won't follow them.

So pay very little attention to those vehemently moaning - it's not perfect, but I'd recommend it

Good luck to all

Airbus.driver.

30th Nov 2018, 10:15

Many thanks for the information, anyway today I received the official benefits list from CAE:

- roster 5/4 with flexible roster pattern of 6/3
A Flexible Roster pattern option may be made available on which in principle you will be rostered on the basis of six (6) consecutive duty periods on-duty followed by an off-duty period. The off-duty period shall normally be a period of three consecutive 24 hour periods beginning when you are released from duty after the sixth consecutive duty (“the Flexible Roster Pattern”). The Flexible Roster Pattern will be based on the Standard Roster Pattern however there will be a sixth duty where there would otherwise be a day off.

- Insurance
At the Company's expense, the Company will provide you with Personal Accident insurance in accordance with the detailed policy terms and conditions which are available on request. You may wish to take out additional insurances in accordance with your own personal requirements.
The Company will provide you with access to medical insurance at your own expense and responsibility. This insurance is offered at Company rates.
The Company will provide you with a monthly allowance of £55.00 if you choose to avail of towards personal medical insurance. This allowance must be put toward personal medical insurance Payment for this allowance will be made through expenses procedure detailed in Company Polices and procedure where receipts are submitted.

- LOL
The Company will provide you with an annual allowance of GBP£ 1,500 to put towards Loss of Licence (“LOL”) insurance. This allowance must be put toward LOL insurance and you may be asked to provide evidence of such insurance. You are entitled to avail of the Company's rates if LOL insurance is arranged through the Company.

- Pension 5% of basic pay around 100 £

- Travel ID tickets after 6 months limited on SAS Ireland network

R1ddle

30th Nov 2018, 10:32

Quick reply to previous post - staff travel limited to SAS network...

Plus email recently came out saying they are negotiating with other airlines which will be available shortly

highfive

1st Dec 2018, 00:59

- roster 5/4 with flexible roster pattern of 6/3
A Flexible Roster pattern option may be made available on which in principle you will be rostered on the basis of six (6) consecutive duty periods on-duty followed by an off-duty period.

So its basically 6:3 then, with occasional 5:4? Or does the employee have the option to reject the "flexible" option?

Seems disingenuous to say 5:4, and then to say, oh by the way, we've got flexible rosters.... we all know where this leads :(

Airbus.driver.

1st Dec 2018, 06:46

So its basically 6:3 then, with occasional 5:4? Or does the employee have the option to reject the "flexible" option?

Seems disingenuous to say 5:4, and then to say, oh by the way, we've got flexible rosters.... we all know where this leads :(

If is in the contract and clear like that I don’t think it is possible to reject anything.

FlightDetent

1st Dec 2018, 11:35

I was told in AGP, that you would only consume the HOL over the workdays. To get 4+5+4 you just need to get rid of the inner 5. Do this 4x a year...

true?

R1ddle

1st Dec 2018, 12:31

It is a 5/4 pattern. However for 3 weeks in 3 summer months they can roster you 6/3 but have to give you day off payment. So to be clear - absolutely 5/4 apart from 3 weeks in summer

hope that helps

R1ddle

1st Dec 2018, 12:36

I was told in AGP, that you would only consume the HOL over the workdays. To get 4+5+4 you just need to get rid of the inner 5. Do this 4x a year...

true?

If you are asking can you get 5 days leave inbetween your two 4 day off patterns ie 4 days off 5 days leave 4 days off - 13 days off in a row, YES and you can do that 4 times a year (22days leave a yr) and so far there is no restriction in summer months.

so basically 13 days off 4 times a yr with 2 days leave left over - LHR contract

AGP i believe get 30 days leave

2unlimited

2nd Dec 2018, 00:47

From a friend of mine who is union rep for SAS, this was his own words: If this company is goes under (hopefully) the pilots are out on their own.

The company is wholly independent from SAS. and from what I have heard due to crewing problems, they have had to use SAS Scandinavia to replace many of the flights to avoid cancellations.

The company is owned by SAS, but has no direct connection to SAS itself, and the SAS Scandinavia hopes and wants it to fail, and to be honest it will be a tragedy if it does survive, as it could mean the end for proper companies like SAS, instead all companies will just be Irish importers with contract pilots, and that is the tragedy we all want to avoid.

For me it seems like creative solution of "union" busting airline, so next time SAS pilots put their management under fire, SAS can turn around and use SAIL to bust those demanding crews from SAS.

wheelbarrow

2nd Dec 2018, 01:41

2unlimited

2nd Dec 2018, 02:34

Tell your friend "the union rep" not to be so hopeful. sas won't be going under any mat in Denmark nor will Sail under any mat in Spain. He's a fabulous imagination. perhaps he should focus on his own performance rather than dreaming .................................

https://e24.no/naeringsliv/sas/kanselleringskaos-i-sas-droemmen-om-irland-er-totalt-feilslaatt/24401929

https://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/norge/2018/07/25/195418520/sas-sjefen-varsler-flere-innstilte-fly-i-sommer

https://www.abcnyheter.no/nyheter/norge/2018/07/21/195417221/varslerbrev-fra-26-piloter-til-sas-ledelsen-pa-randen-av-kollaps

Use Google translate, and you will discover a lot of interesting news. SAS Scandinavia is going fairly good at the moment, the same can't be said about SAIL.
From the press it seems to be a disaster waiting to happen, even say it's worse than Ryanair, that takes some making.

R1ddle

2nd Dec 2018, 06:03

tprop

2nd Dec 2018, 06:59

What a lovely post, there are some truely inspiring people about! Wishing people get made redundant huh? What a wonderful human being you are!
Well, you are making a bunch of SAS Mainline crews redundant, aren´t you?
If you are working for SAIL you are not exactly part of an innovative upstart trailblazing new and different ways of doing things. Nor are you an independent competitor. You are flying mainline planes on mainline routes, aren´t you?
And if you ignore the PR people and fancy management speeches and instead read the fine print in the annual reports you will notice SAIL isn´t exactly contributing to the bottom line.
This whole discussion about T&Cs and how they are/will be/might be improving is a bit of a joke. The only reason SAIL was created is to pressure the mainline crews into accepting lower T&Cs. Now if you can add 2 and 2 together you might see that if management succeeds in this - lowering pay and pensions for mainline crews, who are already at the low end in Europe - then they obviously can´t raise the same for SAIL crews a whole lot. That would defeat the purpose. Au contraire, management would turn around and use those very lowered T&Cs against SAIL crews.
And should management not succeed, well then there is no point in having SAIL and it will very quickly go the way of all the other SAS non-main airline experiments.
You are pawns in a dirty game. Do you let yourself get played?

R1ddle

2nd Dec 2018, 07:18

austrian71

2nd Dec 2018, 12:32

SAIL goal is to be cheaper than SAS mainline, thats a fact. So everybody has to decide him/herself, if she/he wants to be "cheap". I for myself was proud to tell them the truth during my interview and rejected their sim offer, because of ethical reasons. Now I understand of course people, that have a loan, family to support, that they pray to SAIL, but I can only agree with all the posters above, that mentioned, how cheap SAIL is , indeed. I myself got an offer with much better t&c´s, not only money wise, also ethical wise, how people are treated in SAILS is not the way of my multicultural and ethical mind, but I not wanna to start a political discussion, I think our british friends have more than enough with the present brexit chaos, at the end of the day everybody gets back what she/he earns. Thats also a fact.

2unlimited

2nd Dec 2018, 15:22

SAIL is just a further race to the bottom with regards to T&C's. It's not about wishing people become redundant, but it's clear from the Scandinavian Unions that SAIL is not a welcome sight.

You might not like the reality, but when it's told to be worse than Ryanair, than it should be eye opener.
I have worked with loads of ex Ryanair guys, and asked them if it really was as bad as I have read, they told me it was worse than we can imagine.

I also understand people need to put food on the table for their families etc., but from the reports SAIL had to cancel hundreds of flights this summer due to lack of crew, according to the Scandinavian press the writing is on the wall regarding the future of SAIL, and the Scandinavian unions will not be there help it survive.

Airbus.driver.

3rd Dec 2018, 09:00

That is interesting and stiff! I asked to CAE if the flexible roster is connected to the high season periods and their answer is:
The flexible roster was added in the last contract because SAS Ireland try to limit flight cancellations. It seems that there is a large turnover of employees (for different reasons), having many trainings and little availability from the employees, definitely SAS Ireland need more flexibility in the rostering.

172_driver

3rd Dec 2018, 12:11

R1ddle,

SAS management uses SAIL to/from and domestic Scandinavia. They want to operate in Scandinavia without carrying the associated costs of doing so. It's our schools, health care and public services that are loosers. On top of that a perfect tool for union busting. SAS management did not anticipate the local pilot shortage (and I emphasize local, it'll probably be over soon with the fall of Primera, Smal Planet... WOW?)). We'll see if the wind fills the sail again (pun intended), mainline pilots aren't so thrilled. I hope you understand why. It's not the players we're against, it's the business model.

2unlimited

3rd Dec 2018, 14:53

Have SAS recently made pilots redundant?

"Au contraire" there already is a new and improved contract out that is very competitive, but we are still far cheaper as the cost of living outside scandinavia is far cheaper.

I have worked for a number of airlines, not one of my previous companies exist anymore. I learned a long time ago airlines are not pilot charities....some still haven't it seems.

Good luck to all
Living in London is not far cheaper than Scandinavia, furthermore what is the cost of living "cheaper"?
Sometime ago when was working with some ex Ryanair guys, and we talked about Cabin Crew conditions at RyR, I asked the stupid question why do they put up with such conditions, than to be told most of them that come and work come from "poor" European countries such as Spain, Portugal, Italy and Eastern Europe etc. Places where it's not easy to find good paid jobs.
And I can recall from few years back, before my flying days I lived in Spain, and we had this waitress working in our local restaurant, she would work 6 days a week, 2 jobs and around 10 - 12 hours a day, for this she would have around £500 - 600 a month. (around 15 years ago)
So I can see why loads of people get sucked into taking such jobs, and getting treated like trash, for them it's an "upgrade" - this is where EU has become a dream for companies wanting to take advantage of a EU wide cheap labour market to squeeze the prices down.

As 172_driver says, "It's not the players we're against, it's the business model."

R1ddle can you honestly not see the issues with SAIL business model and the threat it poses to SAS mainland? The "Creators" of SAIL are treating you as test subject, they are hoping this will be the future, so they can make more profits, and provide worse TC's to their crews. If you can't see this yourself, than you are part of the problem and culture that needs to change.
You are getting a short term gain, in exchange for long term pain.

Icejock

3rd Dec 2018, 15:40

Well you have to team up with them instead, just like at Norwegian where the pilot corps has tried to unite instead. In that way the TC's can be improved for everyone.

2unlimited

3rd Dec 2018, 17:16

Well you have to team up with them instead, just like at Norwegian where the pilot corps has tried to unite instead. In that way the TC's can be improved for everyone.

And what planet are you living on?
Let's see how much support Norwegian Core or SAS mainland will get from their "colleagues" contracted by OSM or CAE, next time Norwegian Core or SAS mainland goes out into strike, and the contractors and SAIL will be sent to break the strikes?

Last time Norwegians strike lasted around 2 weeks, and still there was s.... sent into break the unions strike, so this is only a loose - loose scenario.

Of course the excuse will always be that you need to follow the union laws of your land, but don't kid yourself that SAS want you to be equal to SAS mainland company, they will rather strive to make SAS mainland equal to SAIL. Less pay, less benefits, downgrade in overall TC's, that's what the ultimate goal is.

Sure you can try to "talk together", but when push comes to shove, SAIL will be spineless, they will be forced to break strikes of their colleagues if sent to cover SAS mainland flights, because SAIL pilots are NOT employed by SAS.
It's called split and conquer. And it's the worst you can do to a colleague in any profession.

What is sad, is not that you take the job, as you probably don't have much choice, this is what there for you, you can't get a better job, the sad bit is that you at can't even acknowledge that this is the cancer of our industry, and we only have ourselves to blame at the end of the day.

SAIL and SAS will never be the same, for the exact reason as explained, that's why it is important for all of us in the industry that companies like SAIL fails, so we can all be offered proper contracts and proper TC's.

It's also important you don't see this as a personal attack, I wish Ryanair also fails, but not because I want people to loose their jobs, rather that management understand that they can't run airlines this way, and that they must restructure the business model. At the moment example Ryanair are forced to make small steps to improve, similar must apply for companies like SAIL, we hope they fail with their business model, and restructure the company to be in line with SAS mainland.
But at the moment they are founded to take away a large part of SAS mainland business, that means they are taking away jobs from people in SAS mainland company, that's the reality.

ShamrockF

3rd Dec 2018, 19:56

I wish Ryanair also fails, but not because I want people to loose their jobs, rather that management understand that they can't run airlines this way, and that they must restructure the business model. At the moment example Ryanair are forced to make small steps to improve, similar must apply for companies like SAIL, we hope they fail with their business model, and restructure the company to be in line with SAS mainland.
But at the moment they are founded to take away a large part of SAS mainland business, that means they are taking away jobs from people in SAS mainland company, that's the reality.

Management can run companies this way and do run companies this way. Ryanair have created countless pilot jobs by making aviation more accessible to the masses and creating a great foothold for many people to start their careers in aviation. Get your head out of 1970 and realise that your unions’ strangling terms, massive salaries for little productivity have a place in the history books when it comes to aviation. If SAS don’t do it they’ll be run out of business by the likes of Ryanair and Wizz who will. The consumer is voting with their wallet and is forcing everyone to trim costs.

You’re foolish to think Ryanair will become like SAS mainline, and even if they do there’ll be another ULCC behind them to pick up the pieces and keep fares low for the consumer.

SAS Ireland, even with its challenges is helping reduce the cost of flying for SAS by 30%. There’s not a chance they’ll throw that away because of some disgruntled crew members want their six figure salaries and hefty annual leave allowances at the busiest travel times of the year.

Well done to SAS for creating opportunities to increase their business whilst also maintaining a high standard. If you don’t like it, then go somewhere else to work. Nobody cares.

2unlimited

3rd Dec 2018, 20:16

Management can run companies this way and do run companies this way. Ryanair have created countless pilot jobs by making aviation more accessible to the masses and creating a great foothold for many people to start their careers in aviation. Get your head out of 1970 and realise that your unions’ strangling terms, massive salaries for little productivity have a place in the history books when it comes to aviation. If SAS don’t do it they’ll be run out of business by the likes of Ryanair and Wizz who will. The consumer is voting with their wallet and is forcing everyone to trim costs.

You’re foolish to think Ryanair will become like SAS mainline, and even if they do there’ll be another ULCC behind them to pick up the pieces and keep fares low for the consumer.

SAS Ireland, even with its challenges is helping reduce the cost of flying for SAS by 30%. There’s not a chance they’ll throw that away because of some disgruntled crew members want their six figure salaries and hefty annual leave allowances at the busiest travel times of the year.

Well done to SAS for creating opportunities to increase their business whilst also maintaining a high standard. If you don’t like it, then go somewhere else to work. Nobody cares.

Really? Now we know MOL is here on PPRune too, what a nasty piece of work.
I will actually enjoy the moment SAIL goes bust, after reading such vitriol. As it shows, the divide is greater than ever, those "RyR" pilots who got their chance there, hates the company and are escaping in droves if they get the chance.

172_driver

4th Dec 2018, 07:23

SAS Ireland, even with its challenges is helping reduce the cost of flying for SAS by 30%. There’s not a chance they’ll throw that away because of some disgruntled crew members want their six figure salaries and hefty annual leave allowances at the busiest travel times of the year.

Ignorant to say the least. You have very little knowledge about terms & conditions in mainline, nor the unit cost of SAIL.

Go right ahead, sell yourself cheap. With comments like that I cannot wait for Brexit to happen sooner rather than later.

LEMG

10th Dec 2018, 15:06

The number 9 about to be delivered

2unlimited

10th Dec 2018, 15:21

SAIL is operating now 8 a/c and number of cancellations still doesn't reduce...

Any inside news? Cabin crew in Malaga are still working without contract?

So happy news all the way around. May it long continue, so they will offer people proper contracts, or maybe just join SAS instead.

Ramrise

22nd Dec 2018, 07:57

Apparently newest rumor about closing Malaga base, anybody else heard anything about that??

Can any substantiate the rumor above?

Thx.

CrazyClown

7th Jan 2019, 09:51

Any more news about SAIL or the Malaga base?

CFI

23rd Jan 2019, 07:35

Travelled on SAS Ireland some time ago. So sad, nothing left of good ol’ Scandinavian Airlines except for a logo on the tail. So short sighted of SAS, not much left of their nearly century old reputation.

If you want to compete with the LCC’s, you should do it better than (or at least equal to) the LCC’s. But when the only growth available is eating your own core business, it’s like curing a cancer by lighting up.

Lcc’s like Norwegian had a different and more successful strategy; they both expanded the industry as a whole and also conquered market shares from competitors not limited to air transportation only. But they were flawed as well by too an aggressive expansion plan based on high risk. Investments based on over optimistic future outlook. It’s starting to crumble now in Europe. Or should I say, with Europe.

Hiring corporate jackals to do violent restructuring such as mr. Wångdahl takes these companies nowhere fast. In the religion of free and unregulated competition EU is killing reliable air transport services in the continent.

Solution? Run while you can. Go east young man. Make a bold move, before the gates get flooded.

Perser_dk

4th Mar 2019, 15:02

Any news about recruitment and crewing situation for the summer?

UFO-flying-Airbus

8th Mar 2019, 21:54

Ladies and gents,

Does anyone have any info on SAS Ireland interview and simcheck? Captain position. I have assessment tentatively lined up for early April

I also have some info that I'd be happy to share. Would anyone be so kind as to consider reciprocating? :-)

Best regards

UFO-Flying-Airbus

matt283

3rd Apr 2019, 16:54

https://standbynordic.com/sas-strike-looms-as-pilot-talks-fail/

Looks like soon we will find out if theory saying that SAIL was created only as a bargaining tool for next CLA and pay deal agreements negotiations was true or not...

Tamii

6th Apr 2019, 07:17

Helloooo
what do you think about the company? Should i apply for cabin crew?

BluSdUp

6th Apr 2019, 14:59

No No
Do not sell Yourself short!
Just tick DEC box.

Tamii

6th Apr 2019, 16:40

What does that mean? Haha

USERNAME_

6th Apr 2019, 17:23

Helloooo
what do you think about the company? Should i apply for cabin crew?

If you got sacked from Ryanair, speak minimal English or despise any form of customer service/human interaction, then SAS Ireland is the place for you.

Tamii

6th Apr 2019, 17:40

Haha thank you for the answer

BluSdUp

6th Apr 2019, 18:40

USERNAME_

7th Apr 2019, 09:38

Dude, what are You on about.
RYR dont fire people, they quit.
And I did AGP ARL in February in the new Neo ting and they were great.
Tamii
DEC is Direct Entry Captain, I could not help myself. Sorry!
Anyway London is ****.
Malaga is great.
Go Girl Go!
Regards
Cpt B

I’m guessing you haven’t had much/if any contact with SAS Ireland crews.
Wouldnt base your opinion off of one flight, which was operated by AGP Based crew not LHR.

matt283

7th Apr 2019, 11:05

Dude, what are You on about.
RYR dont fire people, they quit.
And I did AGP ARL in February in the new Neo ting and they were great.
Tamii
DEC is Direct Entry Captain, I could not help myself. Sorry!
Anyway London is ****.
Malaga is great.
Go Girl Go!
Regards
Cpt B

https://www.laopiniondemalaga.es/malaga/2018/11/01/denuncia-subcontrata-aerolinea-sas-tripulantes/1044018.html

Malaga is great, who needs contract of employment?

Crosswind Limits

7th Apr 2019, 11:39

If you got sacked from Ryanair, speak minimal English or despise any form of customer service/human interaction, then SAS Ireland is the place for you.

That is a grossly inaccurate and unrepresentative statement! I am trying to work out who you are. I seem to recall you were ex Monarch (Luton??) who then worked for Primera and now works for SAIL or did work for SAIL. I have a question for you, why do you slag off everywhere you work on an open forum? You did it at Primera and now SAIL!!

For the record and some much needed balance crews are mostly good at SAIL, professional and customer focused.

USERNAME_

7th Apr 2019, 11:47

That is a grossly inaccurate and unrepresentative statement! I am trying to work out who you are. I seem to recall you were ex Monarch (Luton??) who then worked for Primera and now works for SAIL or did work for SAIL. I have a question for you, why do you slag off everywhere you work on an open forum? You did it at Primera and now SAIL!!

For the record and some much needed balance crews are mostly good at SAIL, professional and customer focused.

I like your use of the words "Mostly good".

Never once "slagged off" Monarch, nor Primera to a certain extent(after the collapse, perhaps). I do not work for SAIL, never have and never plan too.

Please tell me how crew who previously operated on Boeings doing a 6 day "conversion" onto Airbus and blowing slides once a month is professional, crew who can't wear SAS lanyards or wings or name badges because CAE(the employer) wont let them. Crew who've just had their attestations moved to Malta despite being employed by an Irish company and working on behalf of a Scandinavian one, very professional isn't it, but don't let facts get in the way of recruitment eh.

Of course, this doesn't extend to the entirety of SAS Ireland, there are some fantastic, experienced and professional crew working there, but they are 1 in a million.

Crosswind Limits

7th Apr 2019, 12:16

BluSdUp

7th Apr 2019, 22:13

I call BS, You claim a Typerating is 6 sessions, now that is not done.
8 sessions and a test is minimum if I recall .
Anyway , it is all over when SAS goes on strike in a few weeks to stop this madness
Will save the company loads of money.
Time for a Norwegian or a Dane at the helm, the one now is daft.
No one does Irish now , even the Irish.
Polish , Latvien or whatever.
Even Norwegian is getting a Swedish AOC.
Anyway
Start smiling, PAX are boarding
regards
Cpt B

Klimax

8th Apr 2019, 16:43

You had plenty of digs at Primera pre redundancy I remember reading some of your acidic comments from the summer!

My question to you is, if you’ve never worked for SAIL why do you feel so strongly to pass comment on a public forum about a company you’ve never worked for or want to work for!? It’s almost as if there’s some bitterness or resentment within you the origins of which I have no idea!!

The obvious issue with low baller SAIL is that it's operating on routes that mainline (DK, SE, NO) SAS should be operating, with crew on reasonable employment conditions, instead of the SAIL b@ll****. Hopefully the SAS mainline pilot strikes scheduled for late April will, among other things, bring an end to the failing SAIL project. The community welcomes decent employment contracts and not the type of low ball contracts of SAIL! Simple as that.

VarigMD11

8th Apr 2019, 16:58

ATIS

9th Apr 2019, 05:19

In the past year, regular Line Captains have averaged £115K before tax, flying over 800hrs on a 5/4 contract. A percentage of that does include per diems for over nighters. Captains do tend to be away more than FOs. Info from mates that still work there.

Cabin crew seem to be earning more than at Monarch and Ryanair, for less work. Not so many sales service to do.

Still some improvements needed with the pension. Woefully short I reckon.

3Greens

9th Apr 2019, 06:57

Management can run companies this way and do run companies this way. Ryanair have created countless pilot jobs by making aviation more accessible to the masses and creating a great foothold for many people to start their careers in aviation. Get your head out of 1970 and realise that your unions’ strangling terms, massive salaries for little productivity have a place in the history books when it comes to aviation. If SAS don’t do it they’ll be run out of business by the likes of Ryanair and Wizz who will. The consumer is voting with their wallet and is forcing everyone to trim costs.

You’re foolish to think Ryanair will become like SAS mainline, and even if they do there’ll be another ULCC behind them to pick up the pieces and keep fares low for the consumer.

SAS Ireland, even with its challenges is helping reduce the cost of flying for SAS by 30%. There’s not a chance they’ll throw that away because of some disgruntled crew members want their six figure salaries and hefty annual leave allowances at the busiest travel times of the year.

Well done to SAS for creating opportunities to increase their business whilst also maintaining a high standard. If you don’t like it, then go somewhere else to work. Nobody cares.
what’s the ROIC for SAIL v mainline please? Also CASK and RASK.? If you’re going to make such statements, at least have the facts at hand to back up your case. Saying costs are 30% less is one thing, but no good at all if there’s no revenue coming in.
Seems to me to be a poor setup from a management that has no clear idea of where they want to take the brand of SAS.

Life on top

9th Apr 2019, 09:24

What is the actual starting wage, without per diem, for first officers and captains now? And how is the pension deal? Kindly replies from employees that actually knows this, and not some rumours spreading up in Scandiland amongst Mainliners, please :-)

VarigMD11

10th Apr 2019, 06:59

£4300 for F/O and £6800 for Cpt I believe.

This is basic without block pay, per diem, overnight allowance, stby allowance etc..

Life on top

12th Apr 2019, 19:56

£4300 for F/O and £6800 for Cpt I believe.

This is basic without block pay, per diem, overnight allowance, stby allowance etc..

Thank you! Do you know anything of the pension and insurance?

TolTol

13th Apr 2019, 15:57

I believe all future assessment dates are full, has anyone any further updates?

Klimax

14th Apr 2019, 04:54

Fact is that the SAIL deal is actually better than what I am getting right now (I fly F/O on the A320 out of a Scandinavian capital under a unionized contract), and I have been with my current operator for 4 years.....

Don´t be such a pilot tool man. Think long term (if you actually believe in the SAS model anyways, than is!). Short term, yes, the failing SAIL project might pay a new first officer higher than mainline does. Strategically speaking, where pilots fail in economics, you´ll be much better of in mainline. Hopefully you know this already. Good luck.

HippoDK

14th Apr 2019, 10:37

Once again, can you explain how it is a failing project

Kendrick can you explain why it is not?

Focus is very much on SAIL in the ongoing negotiations between SAS management and unions.

matt283

21st Apr 2019, 14:13

Anybody heard galley fm about getting direct employment with SAS UK and SAS Spain?

Klimax

27th Apr 2019, 06:46

Once again, can you explain how it is a failing project

I don’t need to elaborate on this. You’ll see soon enough now. SAS management is not as smart as it thinks. The economical fundamentals in SAS are now in order, and a company structure without the failing SAIL “project” is where the company will end up. The SAIL project was “accepted” at time when things were very different - that time has gone. Wait and see. Good luck to all - no matter what boat you’re in.

ZAV

27th Apr 2019, 07:16

matt283

27th Apr 2019, 09:00

What about the SAS strike , how will this affect SAIL, when airlines are struggling as it is . They couldn’t have chosen a worst moment when everyone returning from Easter break? Perhaps beginning of the end ? This is going to hit the SAS mainline pockets hard.

from standby nordic:

¨673 flights affected
All members of the pilot unions have been called out on strike which means that most domestic, European and all long-haul flights have been canceled. The strike does not include flights operated by SAS external partners, which make up approximately 30 percent of all departures.

External partners are Air Nostrum, CityJet, Flybe, Regional Jet/Nordica and Scandinavian Airlines Ireland and flights operated by these parnters during Friday equals to a total of 334.¨

BluSdUp

27th Apr 2019, 11:00

I think You are a little misinformed about SAS.
In 2012 ca late September if I am not mistaken, SAS was Bankrupt , for all practical purposes.
That weekend all Unions and Management sat down and eventually agreed to a massive pay cut!
The Pilots took the biggest one
Long story,,,,
Fast-forward to 2018.
Biggest EVER profit in SAS history!!

Now the pilots want a fair pay.
But also a roster that is predictable as SAS runs the old fashion roster and the crew can not plan much on their time off.
Also Union wants SAS Ireland culled.
And a lot of other stuff, I suppose.
SAS is one of the best run Airlines in Europe and is doing good, my friend.
There is major issues for the Union with regards to SASIreland but they are solid.

ZAV

27th Apr 2019, 12:44

172_driver

27th Apr 2019, 14:23

Thinking a bit highly of yourself there, don't ya?

One thing is for certain; the Deputy CEO of SAS Group, one of the pilot group's pet peeve, was not kind in his words towards Cityjet and SAIL last summer. Their regularity sucked.. Yet SAS did a decent profit.

Truth is, none of us here really knows much about the financials. Who is bleeding money and who isn't. SAIL is still dumping the social contract (i.e. Scandinavian Model) up north. We don't like it.

ZAV

27th Apr 2019, 14:36

Perhaps you should then, anyway mate just stating the obvious whomever is right or wrong the strike is going to cost

Klimax

28th Apr 2019, 21:40

If I was a SAIL pilot, I would be worried right now. It is payback time in The Real SAS. The acceptance is gone and SAS management will give in. I’ve been there, done that, and seen it all before.

2unlimited

28th Apr 2019, 22:56

Don’t think so . Profits made in 2018 however granted
https://www.sasgroup.net/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2019/02/sas-financial-development-in-line-with-guidance-190227.pdf

plus a strike costing how much Per day ? Understandably they want a pay rise of course and a share in the profits , but a lot of these profits were made because of SAIL and much lower wage structures and operating costs .So in my view not the best run airline in Europe to the contrary ,

One of the big issues is that SAIL have 5/4 roster, while they are not offering this to mainland SAS, they are more or less on random roster, guaranteed one weekend a month off.

I seem to recall stories of lots of SAIL flights having to be cancelled or replaced by mainland SAS.
I am pretty sure that if the Union gets their way, they will go for the kill of SAIL, as I have very reliable sources on what they Union thinks of SAIL. And considering current circumstances, I can't disagree, and this is nothing personal, it's not the people working for SAIL that's at fault, it's just the structure and unscrupulous actions by SAS management who have created this unwanted airline as a part of SAS.

But I would not be surprised if SAIL could become a casualty of the current war, or at least they will suffer slightly because of this current situation.

ATIS

29th Apr 2019, 03:50

Apparently it wasn’t all SAIL’s fault. Late airbus deliveries yada yada yada. 1st one was 3 months late and so on.

But also coming from from a senior SAS Ops guy, SAS offloaded too much to SAIL as they had their own crewing issues especially in Stockholm. Then SAIL guys refused to work days off until their contracts improved. All made for a perfect storm.

Good luck to SAS guys.

ZAV

29th Apr 2019, 05:49

Sorry Zunlimited why is it that SAIL would be the casualty out of all this , why not mainline SAS? As presume that SAIL is cost effective,

matt283

29th Apr 2019, 06:58

So If SAIL has a better productivity and lower operating costs why SAS is not registering more of the new a320 neo deliveries in Republic of Ireland?

Superpilot

29th Apr 2019, 07:46

Expansion at SAIL is controlled by union agreement. If SAIL adds more aircraft tomorrow without union agreement with mainline pilots, there would be lawsuits in addition to strikes.

matt283

29th Apr 2019, 08:35

There is already a lawsuit against CAE in Spain for employing 26 out of 40 cabin crew without contract of employment...

polax52

29th Apr 2019, 13:38

why can't they just put the SAIL guys onto a mainline contract and have them join the union?

matt283

29th Apr 2019, 13:52

Very good question ;)

Whisperfail

29th Apr 2019, 18:58

I guess the main issue with that would be that very few of the SAIL pilots would accept the 3500€ payment.(including per diem, lol, etc.) 😂

172_driver

29th Apr 2019, 19:21

2unlimited

29th Apr 2019, 19:26

Now I fully support mainland SAS in their quest for improved conditions.
However I do wonder on one thing, that SAS is a seniority based company has created many issues as you can't get employed as a DEC. Is this some of the reason that SAIL got established, in addition to have a backup for SAS main company, where they could have more flexibility when hiring pilots to operate their aircraft?

I personally believe the seniority based companies create more damage for themselves by trying to fight for this model, as they will not be able to attract the best people for the jobs, only the ones willing to accept substandard Terms and Conditions.

I know many Scandinavians who would not mind working for SAS, and moving "home", but why would they leave a well paid Captain job to come and work as a FO for 10 - 15 years?
The way I see it is that the SAS seniority system suppresses their recruitment, as they will only employ people willing to accept worse and worse TC's, as it has been lowered over the years

172_driver

29th Apr 2019, 20:03

Don't underestimate the power of coming home, getting based where you intend to live. Especially as the Scandinavian countries are very family friendly. People come home for that reason..

You might be right though that some good candidates are lost in the process.

SAS is not an expanding airline, hence no need for DEC. Seniority vs no-seniority, I have tried both. I favour seniority. But you should get in early, the earlier the better.

2unlimited

29th Apr 2019, 20:39

I agree getting based "home" is probably the most important part in this job. But the way SAS operate has made it "impossible" for some very good experienced guys to return home.
I don't know what the starter pay is now, but I would imagine it would be 75% pay cut for a skipper to come and join in the right hand seat.

The ones I know at best end up working part time / and commuting, and it still works out better than starting Ground Zero at SAS.
The options are unfortunately limited purely for economical reasons.

However I wonder if the creation of SAIL could have been avoided if they had been willing to change the current seniority system that exists, as SAIL in itself is a threat to anyone working main SAS company.
Also I find it strange that SAS are not able to provide a fixed roster pattern, as I understand this is one of the main reasons for their strike.
Is there some kind of seniority bidding system with SAS for flights?

Whisperfail

29th Apr 2019, 20:52

psst,,, look a few posts up. Starter pay is around 3500. With a rating in place and some experience I guess it’s around 3900 with per diem and all “extras” included.

2unlimited

29th Apr 2019, 22:02

It's not the worst, but not the best either. But it will not attract many who want to move "home", when they are making 3 times this money as a skipper. How many would be willing to take such a massive pay cut? Even FO's in LCC, makes nearly twice that amount.

172_driver

30th Apr 2019, 05:11

Per diem is not included in that amount. There are no "extras" interms of money.

Whisperfail

30th Apr 2019, 05:23

Actually the per diem is included in that number. The per diem varies but is usually between 150-450€.
And you are right, there is no extras. That’s why all the “extras” are included.

2unlimited

30th Apr 2019, 07:06

Considering the cost of living in Scandinavia that is not very good. Is that amount net after tax? I am assuming those figures are Euros.
How long will it take for an FO to come up to 5000 - 6000 Euros a month? I assume there is some payscale increase every year.
How long to get command?

matt283

30th Apr 2019, 07:50

PU working for orange factory in Italy is making the same money as SAS FO in Scandinavia 😳😳😳

Banana Joe

30th Apr 2019, 08:25

CaptainProp

30th Apr 2019, 10:01

easyJet SFOs take home is between €5000-6000 on French/German/Italian contracts, a bit depending on season (number of hours flown) and family and tax status.

waffler

30th Apr 2019, 16:08

That’s probably why SAS pilots are on strike, to improve those amounts.

Banana Joe

30th Apr 2019, 16:31

How much are pilots earning at SAIL with CAE?

172_driver

30th Apr 2019, 18:48

Can't believe those numbers when it's with SAS. I'm currently making that after tax with a very good employer and I fly only 25 hours per month on average
Out of curiosity, what's the yearly increment according to the payscale? Time to command on short haul and long haul?

You better believe it now.

In Sweden, start at about 3500 EUR and finish at 9000 EUR gross (current exchange rate doesn't favour Swedish pilots). It's not a straight linear increase, but close to.

Per diem comes as extra and can work out to about 6-700 EUR net, if you stay away frome home a lot. They've even sold us out on the free breakfast :{

SAS is not really an expanding airline, time to command will vary depending on a whole set of other circumstances. Used to be about 20 years. Now it's been down to short of 6 years.

Whisperfail

30th Apr 2019, 19:16

polax52

30th Apr 2019, 19:51

They'd have to move base to ARN, OSL or CPH and learn the language, to start with. Then start at the bottom of the seniority list, there's no by passing. It's a career airline, people apply and intend to stay.
I would expect flexibility on the base and the language. Then agree a separate base seniority list but no further out of company seniority recruitment to that base. It's easy...🙄

2unlimited

30th Apr 2019, 20:33

The payscales are slightly different in the three Nordic countries, but is somewhere around those number up there. At the moment, as 172 said, it’s actually only 5-6 years to upgrade at one base. But on another it’s 20+ years. The salary for new upgrades is about 6–7000€ including per diem. But they are forced to work 80% which make them only get 80% of that amount.

Any captain at sail working 4/5 that have 5,600€ you think?

Is that salary net, I assume it is.
SFO's at easy make 5000 - 6000 Euro after tax + Bonus + Shares + Fixed Pattern Roster + Pension (some countries have better deals than others regarding pensions)

I personally see very little positives with the seniority system, unless of course you have been in the company for many years. It makes recruitment very limited, and it gives the company excuses to lower TC's for new recruits.
I believe much of the reason SAIL saw daylight, was to give SAS more flexibility with regards to recruitment.

The one thing I have never liked with SAS is the way they have conducted their recruitment the last 6 - 7 years, as it has been to much of who your know, and who you are related to in the company to get a chance of a job there.
Specially Klaus in their recruitment team, he was a real joker, and not in a good way.

Icejock

1st May 2019, 00:49

All salaries in Scandinavia are quoted as gross salaries.

ZAV

1st May 2019, 07:13

I thought SAS guys had additional perks such as high pensions etc? Anyway they have the advantages of working from home . Plenty of other jobs out there paying much higher rates , just have to move away. However in my view the unions have overstepped the mark a quick effective strike would have had effect but now SAS management will bear this in mind and expect to see more SAIL like structures and wet leases. If any of you remember look what happened to Sabena. The unions thought they had won the day only to find upon return to work Sabena finished and all doors locked. The amount of money this is costing SAS makes it even more difficult for the management to meet their demands.

flyingmed

1st May 2019, 14:17

Everyone knows SAIL was set up as a bogus model to circumnavigate the Scandinavian labour laws and undermine the union of mainline SAS, if anyone stands for those methods then you are probably part of the problem with bogus flying jobs in Europe and helping the race to the bottom.

Those complaining of no DEC in SAS, that is a ridiculous complaint, do like all the other SAS pilots and join the queue.

Good luck to all the pilots in SAS!

Airbuzzer

1st May 2019, 14:50

Latest rumours from SAS F’vik HQ: GM will shut down SAIL as it was part of a strategic plan to avoid unions. They now see they will not succeed. The A/C will be registered in Sweden which has always been part of the back-up plan. The closure will happen gradually to facilitate recruitement as the need for pilots will increase.
SAIL pilots will be able to apply for a position in SAS Main but will have to go through the complete recruitment process. If successful they will join at the bottom of the list as FOs regardless of previous position.

Don’t kill the messenger.

2unlimited

1st May 2019, 15:06

You can’t blame the crews working for SAIL, many of them came from companies like Monarch, and everyone tries to provide a living for themselves and their family.

Why would anyone bother to join the queue for SAS, when they can’t match conditions of other European airlines.
I only looked at SAS around 6 years ago, and discovered that they tend to look after their own.

I just believe part of the creation of SAIL was that it gave the
company more flexibility, which was impossible because of the position of the union and senior pilots in the company.

I know loads of Scandinavians who would love to return to Scandinavia, but the way it is set up it is impossible.

I travelled some time ago OSL to CPH with SAS SCANDINAVIA, and CPH to LON with SAIL, as a passenger there was no difference.

If start pay is 3500 Eur before tax and you have a random roster and constantly night stopping , then it’s one of the worst deals in the business.

I am curious is there a seniority system on roster bidding? Or is that equal for all?

ZAV

1st May 2019, 16:29

Airbuzzer dont think so, if its not broke dont fix it? It is SAIL and the wet leased aircraft that have kept part of SAS operative well 30%. to the contrary it has probably shown SAS Management what parts are working. Also a little unfair of you to post that there are some decent guys out there with SAIL.

172_driver

1st May 2019, 17:46

2unlimited,

SAS is really only good for Scandinavians who want to come home. If you're looking for money, go elsewhere. Most companies pay better. If you're looking for quality of life, it's pretty good (subjectively speaking).

Again, it's a career path you choose. It's not a gig you do as DEC for a couple of years and then move to greener pastures. So can we put an end to your desillusion that direct entry hiring will solve SAS recruitment problem (it hasn't been a problem.... yet anyway).

The roster bidding is not seniority biased.

ZAV,

I know you can't help it, your contractually obliged to go to work, but does it feel good to be part of the 30 % still flying?
And again, have you left earth thinking your SAIL keeps this airline afloat? Cityjet and SAIL had crap regularity last summer when it was needed the most.

matt283

1st May 2019, 18:50

knowing that my colleagues are on strike would make me feel sick and I would go to the doctor 😉
aaaa hang on sail guys are on acmi contract with cae parks...

It’s simply sad to see all the sail ac are on time today...

So SAIL guys have fixed roster 5-4. SAS guys would like to get fixed roster 5-4 and 13% pay increase.

Is it very likely that SAS guys will get 5-4, 7-8% pay increase and integrating SAIL aircrafts to SAS? 🤔

2unlimited

1st May 2019, 20:02

If they did that they would be breaking the law, and I am pretty sure the union would not support them when they get contracts terminated.

172: Not saying DEC will solve SAS problems, just trying to explain why SAIL came to life.
When they hire 6 danish guys from a flight school in Roskilde owned by 2 SAS Captains, one was his son, and they clearly state only type rated pilots should apply.

And Klaus in recruitment team when confronted with the facts replies with a smiley face, than it shows a rotten system. Did not impress me much.

However if you keep having random rosters every month, unable to plan anything ahead, that seems to be pretty crap in my opinion.
What I struggle to see is how they managed to offer SAIL 5/4, but SAS Scandinavia have not managed to get something like this ?

After getting a home base, the fixed roster pattern is probably one of the most important things I have got with the job.

I think it’s out of order to criticise the SAIL Pilots, I have worked with some and they are all great guys, this is not their fight and they can’t legally do anything.
I am sure nobody in SAS Scandinavia would risk their own job and family life in similar situation.

172_driver

1st May 2019, 20:57

172: Not saying DEC will solve SAS problems, just trying to explain why SAIL came to life.
When they hire 6 danish guys from a flight school in Roskilde owned by 2 SAS Captains, one was his son, and they clearly state only type rated pilots should apply.

Nepotism or not, I don't know... can't comment.

However if you keep having random rosters every month, unable to plan anything ahead, that seems to be pretty crap in my opinion.
What I struggle to see is how they managed to offer SAIL 5/4, but SAS Scandinavia have not managed to get something like this ?

They claim SAIL has a fixed route network and 5/4 suits that, SAS is more variable and they need flexible pilots. What SAS calls flexibility, the pilots call intervention in personal life.

I think it’s out of order to criticise the SAIL Pilots, I have worked with some and they are all great guys, this is not their fight and they can’t legally do anything.

I understand that, hence I added they're contractually obliged to keep working. It's mildly offensive however when ZAV seem to think SAIL is the saviour that keeps this airline in business.

matt283

1st May 2019, 21:06

Simply to crew all the flights having crew on fixed roster you need to increase crew headcount.

ATIS

1st May 2019, 21:26

SAIL guys did indeed approach BALPA to see if they could offer support to SAS pilots. I’ve seen the BALPA response, and as you already know it would’ve been illegal.

It wasnt widely known that SAS crews took a massive hit in 2012.

2unlimited

1st May 2019, 21:32

So what’s the average number of crews on 1 aircraft?

How many hours on average you do yearly in SAS Skandi?

Increasing the head count won’t work with current conditions on offer.

What kind of roster is the union asking for?

matt283

3rd May 2019, 07:13

Seems like pay rise for SAS mainland pilots will be only 3,5%.

Anybody knows de details of the agreement?

How about roster and future of SAIL?

A319

3rd May 2019, 07:14

What future?

matt283

3rd May 2019, 07:24

Nothing will change about SAIL with new CLA still 9 ac on Irish AOC flying for SAS?

2unlimited

3rd May 2019, 08:28

The roster bidding is not seniority biased.

I was reading from the agreement, that regarding the roster, now it will change from 40% to 60% that will get roster stability.

How is it determined who are those 40% and in the future the additional 20%?
Unless it's based on seniority, what would the criteria be?

too_low_terrain

3rd May 2019, 10:12

By seniority.

172_driver

3rd May 2019, 10:22

How is it determined who are those 40% and in the future the additional 20%?

Ah that part, yes... it's seniority based.

2unlimited

3rd May 2019, 10:38

So until now 40 % of the crew have had a "fixed" roster pattern?
Based on being the company for X amount of years?

And how many years will it take to get a fixed pattern, to become one of those 40 - 60 %.

matt283

3rd May 2019, 10:46

Also is it based on the seniority in the base or seniority in the company?

172_driver

3rd May 2019, 11:28

And how many years will it take to get a fixed pattern, to become one of those 40 - 60 %

3 years

Also is it based on the seniority in the base or seniority in the company?

Base seniority

If you're not based where there are vacancies for a fixed pattern you are not getting it.

matt283

3rd May 2019, 11:38

From what I understand last CLA was agreed that SAS can put 9 ac to SAIL.

Anybody has any idea what the new CLA says about that topic?

2unlimited

3rd May 2019, 11:42

So if you are 3 years or more in the company base, you are not guaranteed to get it, if already all those places are taken?

In our company as soon as you become SFO you can get fixed pattern if you wish.
However this also applies for people joining with experience that qualifies as SFO or Captain.

The point I am making that if SAS again reaches a point of no recruitment for 15 years, you risk being stuck on variable roster for the same period.

172_driver

3rd May 2019, 11:54

No guarantees at all.

Each base has a certain number of vacancies for each seat (due to increase now). You bid for it. If you've got seniority above the others applying then you'll get it. Otherwise you're stuck. And could be for a long time.

matt283

3rd May 2019, 11:55

It all depends on how exactly the flexi roster in SAS looks like and also the part time options...

2unlimited

3rd May 2019, 16:50

I don't think it sounds very attractive.
Are people in SAS happy with the deal, from what I understand they got 3.5% pay increase compared to their requested 13.5%, and increase from 40 - 60 % for fixed roster.
It's simple, everyone should have the chance to get fixed roster within a period of 3 - 4 years, if you need more crew to make this happen, then that's what has to happen. This should have been part of the negotiations too, a long term strategy to implement a fixed roster pattern available for all.
Many ways this can be solved, more crews, more people allowed part time, but it requires active effort by the company.

I find it strange that other bigger companies then SAS, can offer their crews fixed roster pattern, at least in all their big bases, but SAS can't do it.

Reluctant Bus Driver

4th May 2019, 18:51

So did they put a final nail in the coffin of SAIL or not? If they did then the strike was worth every minute. If they didn't they will have to fight SAIL again in the next contract and it will be much harder...It's easier to get rid of cancer if you catch it early..

matt283

5th May 2019, 13:00

According to the galley fm, there are absolutely no changes planned in regards to SAIL...

2unlimited

5th May 2019, 13:47

The irony in the hatred of SAIL by some, which is understandable to a certain degree, that SAIL's operations probably gives the flexibility so they can increase the fixed roster pattern from 40 to 60% in SAS mainland, as the operations are intertwined.

However of course the solution should have been pushing for more people being employed by SAS mainland, guaranteeing more people a fixed roster pattern, but the way it is stuck now it's impossible, as nobody in their right mind with experience would apply to SAS with their current seniority system.

So by protecting the few, before 40%, now increased to 60%, it does in my opinion not solve SAS issues long term. As explained unless before you may risk being on Flexible roster for many years to come, and that in my opinion is unsustainable for lifestyle.

SAIL covers a market/network that SAS would have been operating on anyway, it means they needed to recruit many more crews, why did SAS decide it was not operational feasible to do this trough SAS main company?
You can't expand your route network by only recruiting First Officers that are friends or family of current SAS Captains, and who are willing to accept low start pay, flexible work pattern which may or may not change in 3 - 4 or more year, depending on how many people in base will be moving on.

So all in all SAS are their own enemy in this, truth is that from what I understand lots of SAIL crew have been getting improved conditions and perks since they originally started SAIL.
Questions should be asked when it works with SAIL but not with SAS. It works with Ryanair and easyJet the same, all have larger fleets then SAS. And from what I understand also offering better TC's then SAS, that's what surprised me the most.

cumulustratus

5th May 2019, 14:08

What do you mean it works in Ryanair and easyJet? They're operating completely different business models primarily characterised by rapid growth. SAS, like all other eu legacy carriers are seniority based as they have been around for ever and don't expand like crazy. Once the market is saturated (so like, yesterday) ryr and ezy will stop their explosive expansion which will lead to no more DEC. Furthermore, seniority systems will be demanded by the pilots in order to protect their careers.

2unlimited

5th May 2019, 14:57

So why did SAS create SAIL?

SAS as a legacy career have worse conditions then LCC. When I heard only 40% had fixed roster pattern I was very surprised. Also regarding pay if the figures I have read SAS have fallen way behind, so the fact they are hiding behind calling themselves a legacy career, means very little if your TC's are worse then companies like EJ / RYR.

SAIL must be seen as an expansion of SAS. SAIL avoided any issues and discussions of changing the structure within SAS.
Seniority based aspects can act as an hindrance in this case. The attrition rate at SAS has at times been extremely low, so you end up with a situation where people get stuck at wrong end for a very long time.

In what way does seniority make your job safer?

cumulustratus

5th May 2019, 17:10

"why did SAS create SAIL?"

Why would a holding company competing in the single market, with its core business in countries with some of the most rigid workers' protection laws in the world, want to open a subsidiary in a country with some of the most relaxed dito?

It for sure wasn't to increaee their labour costs

CaptainProp

5th May 2019, 19:25

I don’t think you understand easyJet’s strategy and business model properly.

Also, there’s no need for a seniority based system just because there is no, or slow, expansion “in order to protect their careers”. Working for a company that makes money protects careers, not seniority based employment systems.

172_driver

5th May 2019, 21:20

Really people.... when there is no expansion, no problem filling either seat, why would a company hire DEC? It would sure gurantee you another strike, if that's what you're looking for.

2unlimited, your insinuations of nepotism is really getting quite tiring.

Reluctant Bus Driver

5th May 2019, 21:59

I listened to the press conference with the SAS CEO speaking after they had reached a settlement. Amongst a lot of things he said that without SAIL, SAS would no longer be able to serve London. What? Granted, I am but a humble bus driver and the intricacies of European airline economics is certainly no expertise of mine, but ALL major European carriers serve LHR. BA flies LHR to ARN as does Finnair with their own crews. Presumably also to Oslo and CPH. Norwegian only serves Gatwick. Am I really supposed to believe that SAS cannot do so using their own people? Is the SAS cost structure so fantastically bloated? Or is it merely and old and tried trick to weaken established unions?

I have flown on SAS. They are quite frankly a pretty horrible airline. And thats coming from a guy that flies for AA!! Not exactly a beacon of airline excellence! No disrespect to any SAS employee on the forum but if SAS wants to compete long term they really need to focus on their inflight product, not establishing secondary subsidiaries using flags of convenience.

2unlimited

5th May 2019, 22:09

your insinuations of nepotism is really getting quite tiring.

Is no longer insinuations, when it's based on factual information and proof that I obtained several years ago. But never mind, who cares.

SAS starting SAIL for me seems to indicate some sort of expansion. And beware if NAS fails, which it most likely will do in the near future, with all their debts, SAILS position might become stronger.

I would have rather wanted to see SAIL never happen, and rather SAS would have made this expansion within SAS.

As for getting better TC's with regards to roster stability, if it's needed more crew to be able to provide this, then that would mean more recruitment, not necessary with further expansion.

Don't worry, I am not interested in moving back to Scandinavia myself, but SAS shafted many guys few years ago during training, which maybe would have liked to return, but because of the way employment is dictated from the top and down, they are locked out of SAS, as only a fool will go from + 130.000 Euros + Bonuses + fixed roster to starting as FO with SAS, just be back home in Scandi land.

It's not just about DECs, its also about FO's getting credit for their experience if they join.

Perser_dk

6th May 2019, 21:22

I dont't really get it. Can we expect expansion of Sail after the new agreement? Is there any recruitment for the summer?

linmar

7th May 2019, 06:30

No. SAS can't increase wet-lease more with the "new" agreement. The quotas are already full with the 9 aircraft in SAIL and the ~25 CRJs that are wet leased.

What could be done in accordance with the agreement is to launch SAIL as an own brand, selling their own tickets, having their own marketing etc. but be restricted to only operate routes that are not profitable. That's how the agreements between the unions and SAS look like and has looked like for many years. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

Norway West

9th May 2019, 17:20

Today the "second-in-command" in SAS, and most likely the main architect behind SAIL, Lars Sandahl Sorensen, left the company. One can always speculate if that was a volunteer exit or not. The latter pilot strike, and LSSs failure to achieve a successful SAIL, suggests that he was sacked.

So will this be the "start of the end" of SAIL? CAE/Parc is by the way not advertising positions at SAIL anymore. I foresee the closure of the MLG base, as a first possible step.

matt283

10th May 2019, 02:41

Apparently SAIL has sufficient crew numbers for the summer, that is the reason why cae is not recruiting at the moment...

Lets see what future brings, but my personal prediction is that SAIL is not going to disappear so fast like snowflake...

too_low_terrain

11th May 2019, 10:00

matt283

6th Jun 2019, 10:17

So far this summer season no cancellations in SAIL. Maybe the crewing levels are better than last year?

For me looks like all those hypothesis about closing SAIL after the mainland strike were unreal...

A319

6th Jun 2019, 10:22

Good to hear regarding the canx.

Regarding the future of SAIL -I think SAS would never drop, cancel or restrict any subcontractor just before the peak season. Meanwhile though, the SAS Main recruitment is being beefed up to enable the largest recruitment since 9/11. You do the math...

HippoDK

6th Jun 2019, 13:44

As it is right now SAIL can not expand due to the newly resigned agreement limiting wetlease for SAS main production - SAS is currently at max wetlease. What happens after summer is anybody's guess. With COO Lars Sandahl gone and if SAS gets a new CEO after summer, then i think that will be an indication of SAIL to be no more...

matt283

26th Jun 2019, 11:16

CAE looking now for FO.s for SAIL, seems like business as usual...

ZAV

27th Jun 2019, 11:46

""There is already a lawsuit against CAE in Spain for employing 26 out of 40 cabin crew without contract of employment...""

Anyone know what is happening here and does it affect the pilots?

matt283

7th Aug 2019, 12:02

CC case still in the court.

From what I heard pilots had contracts with CAE from the begging, so at least they had a contract...

matt283

8th Oct 2019, 15:03

Summer is gone and the only rumor is that they might stop doing overnights in Scandinavia.

Norway West

8th Oct 2019, 17:52

If that is true, I hope we are seeing the beginning of the end of "that company".

ATIS

8th Oct 2019, 21:48

Not the whole story. Scandinavian night stops are increasing for the winter for AGP crew, as they did last winter. The fleet is redeployed as 3 are not required in AGP in the winter. Coupled with earlier deliveries now needing scheduled heavy maintenance means LHR crew will see a big drop in number of nights away.

Maybe they should chase some ACMI work during the quieter months.

172_driver

10th Oct 2019, 20:53

So what happens to the monthly salary for LHR crew? Is it gonna be a big loss? This is what I don't like in this business. Mortgages normally don't take holiday winter time.

ATIS

10th Oct 2019, 21:32

Yeah I guess there will be a hit to flight pay and overnight allowances. Basic salary is fixed. I know some were getting fed up with constantly being away for their 5 day blocks. And others, specifically the commuters, would rather be away for 5 days otherwise they will have to pay for a LHR hotel during standby duties.

CaptainProp

5th Dec 2019, 16:59

SAS CEO apparently mentioned that they’re considering launching another airline, anyone heard anything about this?

Thepirate

6th Dec 2019, 12:04

the rumour i heard was they will be winding up SAIL (well the A320 ops at least) and only wet leasing mid size regionals into the future. I personally think Nordica will be the front runner with cheap labour and a bunch of new efficient Emb E2 arriving.

unsubstantiated rumour I heard around the traps so I certainly don’t want to concern anyone unnecessarily

matt283

6th Dec 2019, 20:32

I heard rumor about SAS Ireland expansion plans to be announced in the beginning of next year :confused:

A319

6th Dec 2019, 20:38

I actually believe this. Expansion in the shape of 20 Embraer or Sukhoi’s and loose the NEOs. All legal iaw. the K19 union agreement. Off to the sim again....

matt283

6th Dec 2019, 20:47

Seems like there is no change in mainland union agreement about SAIL - 9 a/c and no news...

Flashheart II

7th Jan 2020, 11:34

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone can help me out with some updated info on SAIL?

How many hours on average were pilots flying in 2019? I have heard it's a more relaxed schedule compared to Easyjet!

Also, is the 5/4 contract now stable?

Is part time readily available for Captains or is there a long waiting list?

Any info much appreciated!

bobthepilot1

23rd Jan 2020, 13:45

I actually believe this. Expansion in the shape of 20 Embraer or Sukhoi’s and loose the NEOs. All legal iaw. the K19 union agreement. Off to the sim again....

I thought this was only to do with the mainline fleet and not the LHR based one?

172_driver

26th Jan 2020, 21:07

New "mid-size" aircraft to be put under some AOC which we know little about. SAIL seem to have come to stay. Wet lease going through the roof.
Mainline slowly vanishing.

NEDude

27th Jan 2020, 03:58

A friend at SAIL showed me an email sent to their crews. The "Future enhanced operating model" for SAS shows a new operation with a "single type fleet of mid-sized aircraft" which will focus on "Right sizing and fuel efficiency of thinner flows from Scandinavian bases" (direct quotes from the email). SK will continue to be the "backbone" of the operation, with a combination of SH and LH routes. SAIL will be the A320NEO, focusing on "highly competitive routes and new leisure markets". Wetlease operations are expected to continue with ATR and CRJ aircraft. The letter was dated 20 January 2020.

172_driver

27th Jan 2020, 17:19

A well engineered operating model. They decommission the mid-sized aircraft and then go on and say we're lacking mid-sized aircraft. Let's see under which disguise new fleet will come.

matt283

16th Feb 2020, 09:05

The USO union has filed a collective dispute against the Scandinavian airline SAS and CAE Crewing Services Limted over "illegal transfer" of sixty cabin crew of one hundred workers serving the airline at Malaga airport.

The union claims that the personnel are subject to illegal transfer by CAE to SAS and the airline is required to register all its personnel at the base of Malaga in the Social Security, as well as its integration on equal terms with other employees.

ShamrockF

16th Feb 2020, 18:43

So the union are disgruntled CAE are hiring staff which they in turn provide to SAS Ireland? Even though everyone joining knew from the start they would be CAE employees, but working for SAS Ireland? Even though the individuals signed up for this arrangement?

Sounds like the unions are sticking their noses in. How does this sort of arrangement work when a contract cleaning company provides workers to clean offices or hotels? Why aren't they being denounced as 'illegal transfers' too?

Whisperfail

16th Feb 2020, 18:54

Oh... you are also using that Swedish cleaning company with the Irish contractor that hire Spanish workers for cleaning your Spanish house?

matt283

16th Feb 2020, 22:17

and pay your workers income tax in Ireland and social security in Spain...

Icejock

17th Feb 2020, 19:07

But they are working on an airplane so what is the issue...? (Some irony intended)

BluSdUp

17th Feb 2020, 20:47

I still enjoy flying SAS every so often, when the time and price is right, but after the latest add they had up north here degrading all Scandinavian , some of us are a bit fed up with Managements attitude. Still a great company, but some of the upper management need to go. It has great potential with an all Airbus fleet soon, but treating pilots as cleaning crew in a hotel is not the way forward. ( Nice one Shamrock!)

matt283

6th Mar 2020, 22:13

https://e24.no/boers-og-finans/i/rA1jW0/sas-anklages-for-ulovlig-bruk-av-bemanningsbyraa-i-spania

Ryr must pay a total of 36,000 euros to the Social Security after Labor Inspection discovered an illegal assignment of 18 workers at its base in Girona.

Lets see what Labor Inspection will say about SAIL CAE contract in Malaga...

Life on top

10th Mar 2020, 21:39

SAS are now moving 2 aircraft from SAIL into SAS Main as a start of the end. Apparently it’s the two airplanes based in AGP as they are to get rid of the base because of the lawsuit in Spain. Any further news on the reductions in SAIL? SAS Main are all to take a 20% reduction in work and of course pay in order to save the company, but the deal are rumoured not to go through unless SAIL is scrapped.

A319

11th Mar 2020, 10:33

Hmm Source?

matt283

11th Mar 2020, 10:53

Apart of EI-SIH and EI-SII the remaining 7 a/c in their fleet are leased according to planespotters...

ATIS

11th Mar 2020, 18:26

Nope ain't happening. Before the virus hit the 2 AGP jets had been allocated a full summer roster from other places. Leaving 1 jet in AGP. No idea if that's due to a law suit.

Mates at SAIL tell me they've been asked to take either 3 months unpaid leave or 3 months part time

Norway West

11th Mar 2020, 19:21

So: do you really think AGP (2 jets) will fly a full production from a scandinavian base, WHILE SAS main hires are being laid off? That is just NOT going to happend!

ATIS

11th Mar 2020, 19:50

Nope that's not what I think. I said "Before the virus hit"

Now if SAIL crews are being asked to accept 3 months unpaid/3 months part time, that implies some of their jets will also be grounded.

Norway West

11th Mar 2020, 20:11

I certainly hope so. Other than that I find your wording «...being asked...» somewhat humorous.

Life on top

14th Mar 2020, 08:00

Hmm Source?

A friend of mine in SAIL just got this email from HQ:

Hi all,
Sadly the company had decided to postpone any decision, including any agreement with the Union, until next monday due “to the constantly changing situation”.
We will keep in touch with the company during the weekend to follow up on any news coming out of their meetings in Ireland and Sweden on Saturday and Sunday.

So far we can confirm that soon 4 airplanes will be grounded, and the company will grant in the next days the Unpaid Leaves already requested by some crew members.
As we said from the beginning, these individual requests are not helping the negotiations. Anyway, in AGP they will need a lot more pilots and cabin crew in Unpaid Leave and Part Time than the already granted requests.

We are working with 2 possible scenarios right now:
An escalated situation, with progressive unpaid leaves and part times, that most probably will require forced part times for some of the base pilots, as volunteers will not fully cover for the company needs,and;
A complete stop that will require extreme salary cuts with maximum availability or even a temporary dismissal procedure (ERTE) that we are trying to avoid at all cost.

As you can see, the situation is getting worse, and the truth is SAS is not dealing with it as expected from such a reputated airline.

You shall expect last minute changes in your rosters and even cancellations during the next weeks. Please help as much as possible and cooperate with rostering and the company as much as you can, always respecting your legal limitations.

These are tough times, but they will eventually pass. Thanks for your support and trust, and don’t hesitate to contact any of us if you have any doubts.

kendrick47247

14th Mar 2020, 08:08

Is your friend in their AGP base by any chance? This email certainly sounds like it was written by a non native English speaker

Crosswind Limits

15th Mar 2020, 07:36

This looks like an email from one of the Spanish unions and nothing to do with LHR. I have not seen this email myself.

semmern

15th Mar 2020, 16:59

Press conference by SAS CEO just now: 90% of staff in Scandinavia to go on unpaid leave while the crisis lasts. Anyone know if SAIL will keep flying? If so, that is disgusting.

matt283

15th Mar 2020, 21:33

Also month of unpaid...

Norway West

16th Mar 2020, 08:24

Appearantly SAIL will cease operations from the end of this week (until further).

Norway West

17th Mar 2020, 13:02

One month of unpaid leave?

matt283

17th Mar 2020, 15:10

effective form 18th of March for 1 month until further notice...

dirk85

17th Mar 2020, 17:30

1 month or UFN? It's a different thing

matt283

17th Mar 2020, 18:08

“We believe that the current situation is temporary initially 1 month and this will be reviewed on a regular basis.”

The way how I understand above means UFN.

A319

20th Mar 2020, 06:44

AGP closed. 2 a/c will shortly be re-registered and moved permanently to SAS mainline.

spanishCDT

21st Mar 2020, 08:32

And what about crews based there?

Crosswind Limits

21st Mar 2020, 10:10

I suspect A319 is one of our Scandinavian union friends. They are here to spread doom about SAIL and advance their agenda whilst maintaining the cloak of anonymity. If they had to sign off on every comment we wouldn’t hear a peep from them!

I don’t know what the future holds for the industry, SAS Mainline, SAIL or the Malaga base. Time will reveal all!

Sadly asking the question you ask is akin to pleading for your family as you are about to be mugged at knifepoint. In other words unlikely to get the answer you desire!

Gandor

21st Mar 2020, 11:53

And I would suspect that you are one of the "soldiers of fortune" who so kindly contract your work to the highest bidder, that this industry has far too many of... and you still hide behind the anonymous callsign this forum provides...

The fact that the real Scandinavians provided enough capital by the savings that lead management go ahead with their plans, and can offer schemes with rosters and the likes that not even their own workers can dream about, would have even the lesser gifted of you raise your eyebrows and question the operation.

Please do yourself a favour and do a little research about where the planes are actually based, and how much work they have done in the past 6 months, and you would find that somebody is keeping a hand over operation, because utilisation of the planes and crew is among one of the worst in the industry.

So who is it that is mugged at knifepoint? The traveller who is just passing by or the family who provided the this offspring in the first place...

And yes - I am one of Scandinavian Vikings that still will be here when this is all over...

too_low_terrain

21st Mar 2020, 18:27

A question to SAIL-pilots;

Are you getting any form of economic compensation, since you are on forced leave? If yes, from whom?

matt283

21st Mar 2020, 19:17

In AGP Sail applied for unemployment benefits in Spain...

Easyheat

21st Mar 2020, 20:47

It is really strange that SAS emphasise in this video that nothing is Scandinavian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShfsBPrNcTI

But now they have financial problems, then it is the Scandinavian taxpayers money, they are asking for.

Why not ask EU or the World Bank for money? Or anybody not in Scandiland?

matt283

31st Mar 2020, 09:07

In Malaga SAIL crew are on ERTE Reduction of working hours 100%.

Government aid:
- 1098.09eur gross without kids
- 1254.86eur gross with one kid
- 1411.83eur gross 2+ kids

It means if you single without kids you will get 900eur net. Rent for a decent flat in Malaga is around 1000eur + utilities.

I guess those figures in Scandinavia are a bit different...

172_driver

8th Apr 2020, 08:20

I guess those figures in Scandinavia are a bit different...

Yes, due to state aid. But varies from country to country.

Horntail

14th Apr 2020, 20:03

@truckflyer,

Quote:

“Seriously where do you get such tripe, "highest bidder" - When you had your recruiters in Denmark Klaus, clearly knowing there was priority in hiring sons and daughters of the SAS pilots ahead of others who were better qualified.”

Care to elaborate? You are suggesting that recruitement in a nearly 75-year-old company with around 1,600 pilots is based on nepotism? That’s quite a statement without providing any form of evidence.
Have you ever attended a recruitement session?

Horntail

15th Apr 2020, 07:45

:)

I can tell that you never made it to the actual assessment stage - and I believe I can answer you to as why... You do know that attitude is more important than skills when main airlines and larger cooperations are looking for a candidate? And that humbleness is a great part of that?

By reading your latest post I can tell you did not quite know that then, because what you refer to has nothing to do with nepotism - it has something to do with your attitude.
And have you ever given it any thoughts that a company has sovereign powers when it comes to deciding how and who to recruit? Thus, if the company decides to balance the demographics of a group of new hires by adding candidates from one of the most renowned flight schools you can do nothing about it? And by complaining you just disqualified yourself from future recruitement opportunities?

I sure hope you are well in your current position and that you don’t dwell too much of your lost chances with SAS.

And before I forget... I take it you changed the name of the recruitement officer - as publicly throwing somebody under the bus is not polite. And not quite according to GDPR.

matt283

15th Apr 2020, 09:54

Going back to SAIL. It was established in late 2017 as a subsidiary of SAS with the intention to operate 9 Irish registered aircrafts with crew employed by aviation recruitment firm - CAE based outside Scandinavia to benefit from the lower labour costs that are available almost anywhere in Europe outside Scandinavia.

Now after almost 3 years maybe it is time to discuss if they really achieved their target?

Or maybe their actual target was to get the leverage with the union to negotiate new pay deal?

What do you think future will bring to SAIL operation? At the end of the day this is a rumor network ;)

Horntail

16th Apr 2020, 14:13

Always a joy to have PPRUNE substitute ones Netflix addition.

truckflyer, I sincerely hope that you have settled and found a place that suits you.
You seem to have something unresolved in your life. And frankly you sound like one of the many Norwegians who went across the pond to NAIA or PEA. Many returned believing they were aviation kings but soon found out that their personal profiles weren’t suitable for airlines.

Good luck whereever your journey may take you.

Now back to ‘Tiger king’.

172_driver

16th Apr 2020, 18:22

Back to SAIL.

Are simulator sessions running to keep crew current, ready to start-up when the time comes?

ShamrockF

17th Apr 2020, 08:38

Now after almost 3 years maybe it is time to discuss if they really achieved their target?

Or maybe their actual target was to get the leverage with the union to negotiate new pay deal?

What do you think future will bring to SAIL operation? At the end of the day this is a rumor network ;)

I think they play an important role in the overall SAS group. They allow SAS compete on some routes which they could never do using mainline salary costs.

With Michael O'Leary announcing yesterday he expects a significant price war amongst airlines, I think SAIL's role can only increase in keeping SAS competitive and to survive in the medium term.

Just my two cents.

fightthepower

17th Apr 2020, 10:24

That is quite a bold statement, especially considering how factually incorrect it is.

New hired SAS mainline pilots and upgrades on forced part time in winter, only variable roster and starting salary below 3500€ gross for new hires and 5500€ gross for new upgrades. Payscale is 24 steps before topping out below SAIL LHR captains pay. Payscale for FOs capped at 5500€ after 14 years. This was all before COVID-19.

Can you please elaborate on how this ”mainline salary cost” hurts our comptetetiveness?

172_driver

17th Apr 2020, 12:55

Payscale for FOs capped at 5500€ after 14 years.

Not true either though. That was the -15 agreement and that pay scale didn't hold long.

dirk85

17th Apr 2020, 13:06

Is that gross? Bloody hell I never realized how underpaid SAS pilots were.

intercooler

17th Apr 2020, 16:07

Not true either though. That was the -15 agreement and that pay scale didn't hold long.

Oh but it IS true. But due to yearly CLA pay increases the F/O cap at step 14 as of 1 April has increased to 68091 SEK (~6200 EUR) GROSS per month (Stockholm base).

ATIS

17th Apr 2020, 16:42

Fightthepower, I think I misunderstood your post. Are you saying a SAS new hire who eventually becomes a full time Captain will earn less than a LHR Captain. I did not know this.

fightthepower

17th Apr 2020, 21:07

Not true either though. That was the -15 agreement and that pay scale didn't hold long.
Most certainly still is true for payscale in Sweden.

fightthepower

17th Apr 2020, 21:23

Fightthepower, I think I misunderstood your post. Are you saying a SAS new hire who eventually becomes a full time Captain will earn less than a LHR Captain. I did not know this.

Definitely, and not only that. A new hire who eventually becomes a captain will be on forced part time in winter on a variable roster further reducing his or her salary. Summers of course full time with no more than two days off in a row.

Whilst the LHR captain enjoys their full time 5/4 roster year round.

Obviously this may be a moot point as everybodys job is at risk during the crisis.

Im really sick and tired of the narrative that management is trying to push ”blah blah maintain competetiveness”.

It is about fragmenting the pilot group into as many little pieces as possible much like Ryanair did once upon a time.

All of SAS mainline went on strike for a week in 2019 and still 25% of flights operated normally. Why do you think that is?

fightthepower

17th Apr 2020, 21:27

Oh but it IS true. But due to yearly CLA pay increases the F/O cap at step 14 as of 1 April has increased to 68091 SEK (~6200 EUR) GROSS per month (Stockholm base).

Oh yes. Yearly CLA pay increases achieved through pretty intense negotations and a strike or two.

Before that the numbers were even more laughable.

truckflyer

18th Apr 2020, 13:48

One of the reasons I never considered SAS mainline, their pay structure is not very competitive.
However I am guessing there is more "other" costs for the employees in SAS mainland. Such as social security, pensions etc? Which when you add this up makes the Scandinavian based pilots more expensive. However that is clear TC's at SAS are not very good for new joiners, but I guess there must be some still on older contracts that were quite lucrative, or has it all been restructured?

172_driver

19th Apr 2020, 11:20

Most certainly still is true for payscale in Sweden.

The cap yes, but the number (€5500) was off.

The total cost of an employee has to be regarded. Whether a SAIL pilot is cheaper/more expensive is not trivial to decide, unless you sit on the actual numbers. And what's CAE's commission in this? The real benefit of having pilots through an agency is they cost you nothing through COVID19.

fightthepower

19th Apr 2020, 14:00

It has been calculated and benchmarked over and over, they are more expensive, end of discussion. And it hasn’t been difficult, their t&c has been made very public by CAE, cost of social security is just a search on google away.

And it is not really that strange when considering the following

1. Top of payscale equivalent from day 1, both for FO and CAPT. It takes a mainline pilot 14/24 years to reach the same. That is some serious compounded difference.

2. All pilots on fixed 5/4 in SAIL compared to over half of pilots (still, even after the strike) on variable roster in scandi. Meaning you have to hire more pilots to cover the same operation. Roughly 10% more according to SAS themselves when we try and increase the number of pilots on fixed roster.

3. Full time all year in SAIL wheras new upgrades in scandi are forced on part time in winter or there will be no upgrade.

And thats all even before getting into the whole discussion of setting up a new airline with all of its associated and duplicated costs. Offices, staff, operational support, post holders, permits.

Does anybody seriously buy the whole competitive salary structure argument?