SAS Ireland SAIL

[gubbi123]

DEC in any European legacy company is not possible, since their t&cs are good enough to have a stable workforce, hence high seniority pilots. You will ONLY see DEC is companys with a high turnover of employees, or when they start from scratch like eg. SAIL.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

I’m afraid that what was unthinkable a few years ago will become more and more common in the future... There are first signs in several places already

[gubbi123]

I think that would be one step too far, for the four SAS pilot unions in Scandiland, although I must admit that I am a bit surprised about the passiveness over the last year. DPF (the danish one) held the Collective Agreement for Cimber, still the union did nothing when it was sold to Cityjet, with the t&cs now for the worse. Let alone that the Cimber employees had their employer changed from SAS Group to an Irish working model with all that includes....

Even with the now ongoing SAIL program the pilot unions do nothing, just sitting on their hands, waiting for the major part of the pilots to retire within the next 8-10 years.

[Fadecwithnos]

Have any been assessed for the malaga base?
did they send you the T&Cs?
I am attending the assessment next week in Manchester

[jetfly]

If you’re going to an assessment you should’ve gotten that info already. Otherwise send CAE an email and request it.

What I’ve heard the roster at Malaga will be 6/3, compared to the LRH base 5/4.

It would be interesting to hear where you’re working now. And also it would be super interesting to hear from anyone who’s currently there.

As an insider in scandiland we have no info about what’s going on over there what so ever.

[Direct Bondi]

The airline employee species is in imminent danger of extinction. Save A Scandinavian.

[gubbi123]

If the SAIL goes well, then it is only the first step to move more jobs in the air, out of Scandinavia:

borsen.dk/nyheder/virksomheder/artikel/1/359058/sas_afviser_ikke_flere_fly_uden_for_skandinavien_vi_skal_til passe_os_lavprisselskaberne.html?utm_source=forside&utm_campaign=nyhed_10

I have no idea, when the unions will say stop, if they will at all?

[SoundLesS]

8300 pounds gross, equals about 5500 euros net in UK. Not quite an attactive salary, especially with the UK living standards...

[Paper Lad]

And zero pension. Surely that's illegal in UK?

[tubby linton]

Parc are following UK law on another of their UK contracts but it is only 1% of a maximum of £45000.They put £32 into it for me last month!

[matt283]

A bit different question;) I have been wondering how the staff travel works?

What type of concession parc offers?

[Aeromaniac]

Concessions, after 6 months you can ID90 on SAS.
They talk of trying to get Star Alliance concessions but nothing available at last company update. In fact in that they said specifically that it was not a commuter contract!

Apart from that, lowest pay in the industry, hotels are crap, CAE are totally inept and people are resigning fast!
Plus side, crew food is nice, 5/4 roster is ok if you can put up with the low pay (Malaga will be 6/3 roster and lower pay still). Anything to do with SAS seems ok, but they have small input to CAE.

The feeling is if you have another option, take it !

[3MTA3]

When I resigned from SAS Ireland, I sent an email to the DFO. His answer was quite surprising: "I can't acknowledge your resignation, we don't work for the same company"....
It appears that SAS gave the keys of SAS Ireland to Parc, and it's out of control. You receive threatening emails from some obscure frustrated Parc secretary, the roster is a mess, and even the 5/4 doesn't work as usually you get an early flight on day 1 and a late one on day 5. The attitude of Parc makes Ryanair look like a bunch of cute Teletubbies. I've been in many airlines, but I never had to deal with people that rude. This, combined to the lowest T/Cs on the market makes this outfit suitable only if you are desperate or a masochist.
I had to get a lawyer to recuperate my last month salary, even though I left according to the contract, with the proper notice given and my company material given back.

[2802th]

I work for CAE (SAS Ireland) despite what you say the job is good, pay is fair for a Captain 5 to 5500 per month. CC are great, 5/4 is brilliant, yes there is room for improvement but it’s early days. BALPA Membership is growing, conditions will improve. Sounds like sour grapes to me. I can only report what I see and feel and this is not a bad GIG as some of you refer to a job as.

[gubbi123]

3M, what did you expect?

That they would take it easy, when you resigned?

That you agreed to work for a dodgy company offering conditions well below, what the mother company (SAS) needs to pay their pilots for doing the same job?

Bad t&c’s gives a highly unstable workforce (Ryanair suffer from that right now), but they don’t like, when you find a better job... therefore they will act in an abusing way.

May be you should never have joined SAIL?

[heavydane]

3MTA3,
Your experience is pretty much why I left SAS after more than 20 years of employment.
They hate us and take it to a new level with SAIL.
Good luck in Your future endeavors.

Heavydane

[Whisperfail]

2802th: Conditions will improve?

Correct me if I’m wrong.
SAIL started with the purpose of keeping the cost for flying crew down. So if the conditions improve, isn’t that the opposite why SAIL exists in the first place? If SAIL crew improve their t&c, I think that the entire idea of having that company under SAS brand flies out that window over there and SAIL will be history.

Dont take me wrong here, of course I would rather see T&C on a acceptable level. But people accepting the current T&C, and then hoping for major increases is what’s wrong here. Increased T&C for sail is just contradictonary.

[3MTA3]

Thanks Heavydane, I must say I couldn't imagine such an attitude coming from a major. This attitude of hating pilots and, still, being willing to run an airline is totally incomprehensible, certainly some form of mental illness.
Gubbi123, to answer your questions, I was looking for a job close to home. On paper, the operation looked promising and I can understand that SAS was trying to cut costs by dodging one of the most expensive and overprotective systems in the world when it comes to labour costs.Other systems exist in Europe where the labor cost is cheaper without being a rip off for the employee.Since I was part of the first pilots joining I couldn't have any feedback. It turned out that none of the promises were kept except for one: the crappy salary. Actually this one exceeded all of my expectations.
Concerning the resignation part, during my stay in this company I kept on receiving offers for other jobs coming from my employer: Parc. I didn't expect them to take it easy, but I expected them to take it professionally as I didn't slam the door and I resigned according to the terms of my contract. Now I know that it was the first and the last time I've been working for these useless meat sellers, especially after witnessing their total incompetence on every single domain. They were incapable on booking plane or train tickets, hotels, transport to the sim, even a proper OCC or sim session. And they always serve you the same lousy excuse : "we're a startup, you knew about it". From the secretary unable of accomplishing a task a toddler would manage to the one threatening you to cover her mistakes, now I see Parc as a modern times Midas turning gold into crap. One of the guys, quite pissed off that a secretary couldn't match his logbook pages, decided to draw on the corners a triangle, a star, a circle so she could match the circle with the circle, the star with the star… Well, she failed. The same way she failed at obtaining us an airport pass. They had to re do the process from scratch 3 times, and when they started panicking when they realized that none of the pilots had a pass, they started putting the blame on us and started sending threatening emails.
So now, I'm back to the other side of the world working for an imperfect airline, but an airline that uses the magic word "please" when they ask me for a favor and apologize and assume the consequences when they made a mistake. In another word, they treat me like a human being.

[172_driver]

Thanks Heavydane, I must say I couldn't imagine such an attitude coming from a major. This attitude of hating pilots and, still, being willing to run an airline is totally incomprehensible, certainly some form of mental illness.
Gubbi123, to answer your questions, I was looking for a job close to home. On paper, the operation looked promising and I can understand that SAS was trying to cut costs by dodging one of the most expensive and overprotective systems in the world when it comes to labour costs.Other systems exist in Europe where the labor cost is cheaper without being a rip off for the employee.

They hate pilots and they hate taxes, both of which is a major expense for them. Don't expect them to like one and not the other. There is no honour in this business.

[3MTA3]

I can't agree more, 172. This job became a game of survival. No pleasure, no money, no future. Very punk indeed.

[gubbi123]

3M

I am there too, but didn’t volunteer for it (now Cityjet employee, former SAS Group). So I know what is is like, since SAS still offers ok conditions, but Cityjet don’t. I will not complain, but just keep on looking for a better job....

Let me comment on that “SAS hates pilots”. IMHO that is not correct. SAS hates the strong unions, which makes it impossible to have a sound and strong company, earning money to the shareholders, let alone that most Co-Pilots on long haul earns 75-80.000 £ a year in basic salary, which is almost double of what the market dictates if is was not regulated by unions and Collective Agreements. And SAS hates the fact, that they have not been able to change the political level, so the tax level is the same for all European players on the market. This has undermining SAS business strategy for many years, but now the SAS board have had it. They will keep on outsourcing what ever they can, to SAIL, Cityjet, Regional Oü, Air Nostrum, and other players like them.

[CaptainProp]

let alone that most Co-Pilots on long haul earns 75-80.000 £ a year in basic salary, which is almost double of what the market dictates if is was not regulated by unions and Collective Agreements.

I have no invested interest in either SAS or SAIL but that statement is incorrect.

From pay thread here in same forum:
VA FO 1st year £72K basic, £16K fixed flight pay and about £12K variable allowances.
In BA I think FOs start around £60K and tops out at £130 ish plus extras.
KLM €185K? AF similar? Even EasyJet FOs, so short haul FOs, on EU contracts should be able to reach almost €100K if not upgraded before.

CP

[heavydane]

Guppi,

I beg to differ.
The absolut strongest pilot union is USAlpa and the US carriers are literally printing money at the moment. Why? Because the airlines are more interested in making money than fighting with their key employees.
SAS LH fo’s have a minimum of 18 years seniority, hence the higher pay.
I have spent some years with the union at SAS and been in the room with several of the CEO’s including the present one. Make no mistake, they hate us and our ability to stay organized. Thereby denying them the possibility to intimidate and threaten us the way the could in the 1930.

Regards
Heavydane

[gubbi123]

Cap prop, hd is correct, that the high pay is due to the high seniority. And it is 75-80 £ on LH in SAS.

But I also believe that 75-80/year is almost the double of what the market dictates; just look at what pilots accept in Norwegian LH,with European base.

Not saying that the long haul Co Pilots does not deserve their salary. How can I judge that....?

[CaptainProp]

I didn’t say that the quoted pay was wrong, just that it’s not above market rates at all and I proved the argument by stating other LH FO pay rates.

CP

[Enzo999]

I have no invested interest in either SAS or SAIL but that statement is incorrect.

From pay thread here in same forum:
VA FO 1st year £72K basic, £16K fixed flight pay and about £12K variable allowances.
In BA I think FOs start around £60K and tops out at £130 ish plus extras.
KLM €185K? AF similar? Even EasyJet FOs, so short haul FOs, on EU contracts should be able to reach almost €100K if not upgraded before.

CP

The 72k basic at VA includes the fixed pay. Additional pay is about £6k a year paid on to a special card supposiably used for down Route spending.

Year 1 BA FO is about 60k with another 12 to 15 added on.

[A320baby]

The 72k basic at VA includes the fixed pay. Additional pay is about £6k a year paid on to a special card supposiably used for down Route spending.

Year 1 BA FO is about 60k with another 12 to 15 added on.

spot on Enzo :ok:

[CaptainProp]

My point remains, SAS LH FO pay is not higher than what other major airline FOs are making flying LH operations.

CP

[172_driver]

Longhaul and shorthaul pilots in SAS are on the same pay scale... but it's not that easy. All longhaul FOs today were hired before a B-scale was introduced so the quoted £75-80k per year may be true. However after the reconciliation of the A and B scale, which in itself led to industrial action, FOs are subject to a salary cap which reduces the final FO pay significantly. In effect, a long haul FO in 15-20 years will not see £75-80k even (if nothing changes..). One could argue that due to the high employer social security in Sweden a given gross salary is worth more there than in the UK for instance. I am thinking what's part of the parcel being a citizen in Sweden. Free nursery, university, health care, paid parental leave and so on...... You don't join SAS mainline to be rich, you join them to enjoy a fairly comfortable lifestyle. My 2 cents.

[gubbi123]

let alone that most Co-Pilots on long haul earns 75-80.000 £ a year in basic salary, which is almost double of what the market dictates if is was not regulated by unions and Collective Agreements.

My point also remains.

And true that future Co-Pilots in SAS, can expext to be lower paid than other legacy company pilots.

[matt283]

Another thing is that once SAIL malaga base will be open the pay deal and roster will be even worse than uk...

6/3 roster with overnights in scandinavia operating SAS routes and seems like unions are not doing anything about it...

[CaptainProp]

Haha....Ok, only thing is its NOT double pay. I rest my case.

CP

[SE210]

Just the fact that BIT offers a higher salary for flying a Q400 in a country with low living expenses, than flying an Airbus out of London.

[GScapture]

It’s a bit sad where SAS has transformed into during the past years.

With multi-union system in Scandinavia failing to negotiate with the company the results are obvious. All the young guys sold out by older colleagues, B-scales created, even more subcontractors with social dumping etc.

I think we can all agree that what happened wasn’t that pilots or company hated each others even tho it had something to do with it, but the fact that both parties failed miserably to change when everything changed around them. Now they are desperately trying to hold on what they have or reach something they would like to have.

When they were supposed to work together and change things back to sustainable they continued arguing even more. Aviation industry evolved, SAS didn’t.

As I said earlier, it’s really sad and hopefully other companies and unions can learn something from this. As long as this continue SAS will have the cheapest pilots in Europe.

[Flygare]

No GScapture, we can´t agree on that!

The company demanded a B-scale in the period of some 10 years when SAS didn´t hire any new pilots. The unions were forced to accept it, but when new pilots started being hired again, the unions managed to get rid of the B-scale. This was done at the expence of the older guys.
So much for selling out younger guys, right!

The company has been union busting for years and years, and the unions have been played out against each other. They have been more or less power less and had no way of stopping SAIL, etc, etc.

[SE210]

I am pretty sure that they pay much less.
This is from ppjn

Capt top E5430 before tax
Capt base E4590 before tax
FO top €3100 NET (Up to 60hrs
FO base €2700 NET (Up to 60hrs
SO top
Training Programm: 17500€ for 500h/600h after doing your TR with AB

Anyway. Still off topic

The pay scheme I have seen includes bonus and dividend, whereby the gross salary for captains reach +9000 euros.

I do not say, that Air Baltic is perfect, but they react and adapt, when they have to.

The idea of SAS Ireland is out of sync. They could have gotten away with it five years ago, but now every company is screaming for pilots. Primarily Easyjet will absorb any good vacant Airbuspilot in Europe.

[SE210]

Good vacant airbus pilot?
You say people at SAIL are not good?
Not going to ezy for sure.

So where are you going then?

[dirk85]

Anyone chosing sail over easyjet should have their medical revoked, end of story.

[GScapture]

No GScapture, we can´t agree on that!

The company demanded a B-scale in the period of some 10 years when SAS didn´t hire any new pilots. The unions were forced to accept it, but when new pilots started being hired again, the unions managed to get rid of the B-scale. This was done at the expence of the older guys.
So much for selling out younger guys, right!

The company has been union busting for years and years, and the unions have been played out against each other. They have been more or less power less and had no way of stopping SAIL, etc, etc.


Understood Flygare, then I’ve must got wrong information regarding that. Sorry about that.

I’ve heard similar stories about the company playing with unions and trying to bust them. Regardless what’s going on the company structure and business strategy must been a bit off if they came down to this level that it is absolutely necessary to outsource everything, undermine everything. Not a lot “Scandinavian equality” in there. Or then it is just extremely badly run company. But that’s a whole different story and this topic is about SAIL.

-GS-

[mrshubigbus]

So after 16 pages on Pprune and three months of operations what's the overall assessment of this new "low cost" carrier operating on behalf of SAS. It sounds mixed to say the very least and more like a Ryanair set up than anything resembling SAS mainline

[172_driver]

New chairman of the board of SAS just got a 61% increase in financial compensation '-to restore pre-2012 levels'

Good way of leading the way forward :rolleyes:

[MD80rookie]

Aer Lingus offers 2000€ more in basic salary for FO's.

Malaga base postponed indefinitely.

5 brand new Neo's arrived. They fly on average 9 sectors per day. 1,8 sector per aircraft per day is the SAS way of optimizing things.

:ok:

[Engine overtemp]

Malaga base postponed indefinitely.

5 brand new Neo's arrived. They fly on average 9 sectors per day. 1,8 sector per aircraft per day is the SAS way of optimizing things.

Malaga start date has been confirmed.

Aircraft flying considerably more sectors per day than you state. A quick click here will prove that! (Looks like 5 sectors a day - each!) https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/ei-sie

Where are you getting your rubbish from? Facebook?

[toffy]

Does anyone know anything about contract length on SAIL AGP base? I am just curious about what the guys there will be doing during the winter as SAS has verry few flights to mainland Spain in the snowy season.

BR

[MD80rookie]

No worries, in the winter you'll be sent to Scandinavia to operate flights on SAS network, expect to stay in hotels in CPH, ARN and OSL.

I see that Captains for the AGP base are offered a 6/3 schedule where as F/O's are offered a 5/4 rotation.

[triple_2]

Is there anybody here who can shed some light on social contributions if you live and work in Spain? I've been looking at the contract in Malaga and was just wondering if Parc is paying any social contributions as employer because if not, as far as I know, you need to set up your own business and pay a lot. A breakdown would be very much appreciated.

[Direct Bondi]

In Spain CAE/PARC are responsible to deduct both your social contributions and income tax at source:

“For employed persons, their contributions are withheld from their pay, and transferred to the General Social Security Revenue Office by their employer together with his own contributions”

Employers pay the majority of the contribution, 23.6%, you pay 4.7% (figures may have increased, but same ratio).

Here is a guide for your/family social benefits in Spain – Link:

http://ec.europa.eu/employment_social/empl_portal/SSRinEU/Your%20social%20security%20rights%20in%20Spain_en.pdf

Income tax is graduated with the highest rate on earnings above 65K at 45% - Link:

Spanish tax rates and allowances for 2018. (http://www.spainaccountants.com/rates.html)

You may want to review the Spanish Beckham’s Law (no joke):

“The Special Displaced Workers Regime, the original name of the Beckham Act, was approved in 2004 in Spain with the aim of boosting the national economy by attracting executives and qualified personnel from abroad. The incentive was that, under that regime, the displaced workers who changed their tax residence to Spain would have a tax reduction in their Spanish Income tax (IRPF). Specifically, it allowed them to be taxed as non-residents at the general rate of 24% instead of 43% [now 45%]” - Link:

Beckham Law: Can I Take Advantage of It? (UPDATED IN 2017) (http://gmtaxconsultancy.com/en/tax/beckham-law-can-i-take-advantage-of-it/)

And of course, the mandatory; didn’t you see this coming?
The shameful attack on the terms and conditions of the once envied Scandinavian work/life balance started in 2012, the time when a certain core group of pilots in Norway naively made a precarious agreement with a certain smiling rock-ape to use outsourced pilots at a new base in Finland.

Promises were made the airline would hire all the outsourced pilots when the base became profitable. More bases opened using more outsourced pilots and more false promises made. To the delight of the airline, unions in each country formed separate alliances between outsourced pilots and their service provider employer. Flights increased to/from the Norway hub.

A day of infamy arrived when the original core group of pilots became outsourced pilots themselves. Today they fight a legal battle to restore their former airline employee status and associated employee rights. It’s unfortunate they lacked foresight and fortitude in 2012.

History has shown people are slow to act whenever a regime or megalomaniac seeks to undermine the lives of a particular group, whether directly by force or perhaps disguised as an innovative labour model. We usually stand idly by until irrevocable harm is done, acting at the very last moment. The airline employee is an endangered species due to these abhorrent atypical employment schemes.

Save A Scandinavian.

[triple_2]

Thanks so much Direct Bondi, very useful stuff!

About the last part, I must say I’m in doubt about the contract because of this. Just that this is something that is anyway happening in aviation. For instance if easyJet or Ryanair would start competing with SAS directly, which they do, and offer their pilots less, which they also do, wouldn’t that be the exact same thing? I think it’s seriously time that we pilots start to think about organising ourselves properly and collectively (so not only inside airlines but throughout the industry) and lobby to make laws against the abuse of pilots..

[ATIS]

A previous poster mentioned that the new contract would be on par with Easyjet

Well it's nowhere near. A massive thumbs down by the troops. They have tried to engage with CAE to no avail. Other agencies looking after TUI and TCX Palma have now improved their package due to lack of interest. Well CAE seem to be in denial, nothing to see here, move on. Maybe they were relying on the Monarch pool which has now dried up. People are not joining in the numbers required, CAE may soon have to pay penalties for not meeting their obligations.

BALPA are now meeting with CAE in April. Here's to a positive outcome. It could become q decent operation.

[semmern]

For instance if easyJet or Ryanair would start competing with SAS directly, which they do, and offer their pilots less, which they also do

Except they don’t. Both EZ and FR pilots make more than the Scandinavian SAS pilots, with better rosters, etc. Wouldn’t be very nice if SAIL offered better terms than core SAS. That would sort of remove the entire reason for SAIL, which was established due to the «high cost» of the Scandinavian employees. 4% of the total costs for SAS...

[Life on top]

Except they don’t. Both EZ and FR pilots make more than the Scandinavian SAS pilots, with better rosters, etc.

Aprils fool! EZ and FR pilots does not make more than SK core pilots. But hard to compare, given that SK pilots have a fixed monthly salery, and the rest has a variable pay depending on their schedule. But how do you know all this BS you come up with?

[semmern]

Aprils fool! EZ and FR pilots does not make more than SK core pilots. But hard to compare, given that SK pilots have a fixed monthly salery, and the rest has a variable pay depending on their schedule. But how do you know all this BS you come up with?

By looking at my own paycheck and comparing it with those of friends flying for FR and EZ, and DY for that matter. No BS, hard facts. If you don’t know any better than to call BS on things you obviously know nothing about, it’s better to stick a sock in it.

[Life on top]

By looking at my own paycheck and comparing it with those of friends flying for FR and EZ, and DY for that matter. No BS, hard facts. If you don’t know any better than to call BS on things you obviously know nothing about, it’s better to stick a sock in it.

And how many scheduled block hours did you use in your comparison? You are quite the expert in comparing apples and pears, and nagging about the worst of both fruits :) Did you fly anywhere else than SAS professionally so that you know for sure what you are always talking about?

[Whisperfail]

How come they offer 6/3 pattern for captains but 5/4 for FOs? (According to Parcs recruitment adds on their website.)

Is it’s due to the massive amount of unemployed A320 captains that CAE exclusively knows about, or is it something else in this?



Anyone with insight about London base? Is there a balance with the crew vs aircrafts yet?

[Hotel Charlie]

Life on top, just out of curiosity, do you fly for any of the outfits we are discussing?

[triple_2]

Life on top is just taking the you know what like many other non flying monkeys without a life on here

[172_driver]

And how many scheduled block hours did you use in your comparison? You are quite the expert in comparing apples and pears, and nagging about the worst of both fruits Did you fly anywhere else than SAS professionally so that you know for sure what you are always talking about?


Take it from someone who's tried both....

You do about the same amount of hours in both outfits. The way you're paid is very different between them two. In terms of net money, Ryanair wins over the course of a career (as of today). If you compare the full package, it throws things around a bit and many perks come just from living in Scandinavian with free this free that..

[too_low_terrain]

It’s a bit sad where SAS has transformed into during the past years.

With multi-union system in Scandinavia failing to negotiate with the company the results are obvious. All the young guys sold out by older colleagues, B-scales created, even more subcontractors with social dumping etc.



For your info. There are no B-Scale in SAS at the moment. This was solved in 2016.

[Life on top]

Take it from someone who's tried both....

You do about the same amount of hours in both outfits. The way you're paid is very different between them two. In terms of net money, Ryanair wins over the course of a career (as of today). If you compare the full package, it throws things around a bit and many perks come just from living in Scandinavian with free this free that..

Lol.... If you have the same career and does the upgrade at the same time (which you have to assume in order to have any numbers to play with), then the gross salery in Scandi is waaaaay higher than Ryanair, even in the remote chance of working close to 900 a year in Ryan, especially the period as an FO. And that is not to mention the pension scheme in Scandiland...

[Serenity]

No doubt Scandinavian salaries are ok, however SAS Ireland is a totally separate company and things are very sub standard salary and t&c wise. Way below current industry standards.

[SMT Member]

Any evidence to back up the rumours, SAIL are finding it very hard indeed enticing flight crew to join?

[Paddingtonbear]

To compound their issues, they will no doubt imminently haemorrhage further pilots to BA and Easyjet, once they start sending offers out.

All these shady outfits have been trying their luck since the demise of Monarch and Air Berlin and now they're realising people are waking up and smelling the coffee, after the initial shock.

[MD80rookie]

Any evidence to back up the rumours, SAIL are finding it very hard indeed enticing flight crew to join?

Offering a Part Time Roster with 5/4/5/13 for a start-up airline that is started with the sole purpose of being cheaper for the owners, should be evidence that they are having a hard time finding "willing, able, suitable" candidates. There are MANY job offers for A320 drivers out there - why should anyone opt for the one with crap conditions?

[Perser_dk]

Offering a Part Time Roster with 5/4/5/13 for a start-up airline that is started with the sole purpose of being cheaper for the owners, should be evidence that they are having a hard time finding "willing, able, suitable" candidates. There are MANY job offers for A320 drivers out there - why should anyone opt for the one with crap conditions?

1 - Basing in LHR or AGP is super important to you.
or
2 - You got rejected elsewhere.

Regarding the new order of new A320s from SAS, anything mentioned about how many that will be deployed to SAIL?

[A319]

Regarding the new order of new A320s from SAS, anything mentioned about how many that will be deployed to SAIL?

Nil, as per SAS union agreement...

[Life on top]

Offering a Part Time Roster with 5/4/5/13 for a start-up airline that is started with the sole purpose of being cheaper for the owners, should be evidence that they are having a hard time finding "willing, able, suitable" candidates. There are MANY job offers for A320 drivers out there - why should anyone opt for the one with crap conditions?

List five or more then? I and many other A320 drivers are looking hard to find the many you are talking about... And I am talking about jobs for first officers :-))

And just to clarify my previous post, I was of course talking about the salary in core Scandi vs. Ryanair...

[A319]

List five or more then? I and many other A320 drivers are looking hard to find the many you are talking about... And I am talking about jobs for first officers :-))

And just to clarify my previous post, I was of course talking about the salary in core Scandi vs. Ryanair...

1) easyJet
2) BA/IAG
3) Aer Lingus
4) Lufthansa/Eurowings
5) Air France
6) WOW
7) Wizz
8) Agean
...for starters -and that’s just in Europe

[Life on top]

1) easyJet
2) BA/IAG
3) Aer Lingus
4) Lufthansa/Eurowings
5) Air France
6) WOW
7) Wizz
8) Agean
...for starters -and that’s just in Europe

And you are sure that all of these provide better T/C`s than SAIL? :ugh:

[A319]

And you are sure that all of these provide better T/C`s than SAIL? :ugh:

Probably not. Aegean I don’t know to be honest. Wizz is probably similar whilst the rest are better. easyJet should be a non brainer but then again if you failed to get in (of which I’m certain) you’re stuck with the desperate operators such as SAIL. Anyone can get a typerating these days...

[MD80rookie]

Politics aside...

In mainline SAS we are now doing LHR flights AND layovers in Malaga, management admits that staffing resources in mainline are limited because of this - can anybody on the inside at SAIL shed light on the current staffing situation at SAIL?

[matt283]

This might have something to do with the fact that the malaga base is not up and running yet.

[MD80rookie]

matt283

But why?

[CaptainProp]

Because SAIL is not getting enough crew? A lot of companies hiring and I don’t think it’s that easy to find crew on those T&Cs.

CP

[matt283]

MD80rookie: Malaga base is supposed to open from June.

[Fat Busdriver]

Lol.... If you have the same career and does the upgrade at the same time (which you have to assume in order to have any numbers to play with), then the gross salery in Scandi is waaaaay higher than Ryanair, even in the remote chance of working close to 900 a year in Ryan, especially the period as an FO. And that is not to mention the pension scheme in Scandiland...

Are you assuming that upgrade in Ryanair and upgrade in mainline SAS to be the same time wise? LOL play with the actual numbers, 3 years Fo in Ryan than LH seat and 15 years in SAS(with SAIL it may never happen) on the right before moving to the left, I don't have time to count but you will make at least 1 mil Euros more in Ryan if you start at a young age! Sure you will save some bucks on the free coffee. I used to work for another LCC pink outfit before moving back home to Scandinavia and Charter. Now I have free, meal, coffee, snacks, good salary, good colleagues and 15 years to upgrade. Is it worth it? Let me say it like this, if Easyjet opened a base in Scandinavia I would be the first to knock on their door, not because I do not like my job but this is still a job, If I can make 1 million Euros more for my retirement I would do it. Coffee snack all this crap is not important, base, salary and time spent at home is. Also another important thing, yes I flew 900h per year but I had only 1200h in duty time per year, only 10-13 days of actual work per month and even on workdays I was at home in my own bed every night. In LCC everything is optimised, 30min turnarounds, no hotels, pickups, deadhead and other bull**** that you get in SAS. In SAS you fly 800h per year but work 20 days a month!(almost) Who is more overworked? LCC or SAS? SAS is only good for old guys sitting on A330 and making 10 grand as FOs, for new joiners it utter crap! I know that there are worse outfits in Scandiland but its still shame.........

[matt283]

Because not enough drivers...
Remember...BA and EZY recruiting...

SAIL has now 6 a/c and plan to have 9 in total.

I have a feeling they will not struggle to get crew for such a small amount of a/c, considering that many drivers will be willing to take pay cut to be based in LHR or AGP with permanent roster pattern.

[CaptainProp]

Clicking through the various threads this morning reading updates an ad popped up from Small Planet offering €12.200 -15.500 “net” for “training instructors”. You know things are desperate when even the low ballers are starting to raise the bets like this.

CP

[Lolo75020]

Clicking through the various threads this morning reading updates an ad popped up from Small Planet offering €12.200 -15.500 “net” for “training instructors”. You know things are desperate when even the low ballers are starting to raise the bets like this.

CP

Once again this unexpected salary in small planet is not what it is claimed to be.
Indeed this is a floating base not in Europe but world wide. It means that they will send guys where no body wants to go such as Bhutan, Saudi Arabia, India, Combodia etc... In winter time do not expect the 20/10 pattern and most probably more likely 6 months in those countries...

If you want a fair comparaison ask Small Planet their salaries details for a fix base.... Then you will realize that SAIL is not that bad...

[Whisperfail]

MD80rookie: Malaga base is supposed to open from June.

Initially the AGP base was supposed to open in the end of March... So I still think the original question is interesting..?

[CaptainProp]

It was a general statement about pay being offered from my side, not about necessarily comparing them in detail. If they didn’t have to they would’ve never offered these salaries.

CP

[FlightDetent]

Lolo, I think you may had missed CP's point. He's saying that low-ballers raising the stakes is a sign of trade-winds changing. I agree.

Makes no difference the SPA sheet is just hype (you were probably too exhausted to add "it's GROSS" to your list). It's about what made them create one.

And SAIL feels the same pressure (email about 2 hrs ago):



Proposed roster pattern of 5 days on, followed by 4 days off, 5 days on, followed by 13 days off.
Staff Travel on SAS Network available after 6-month probation

Average monthly Gross salary based on 52hrs- £6,104.25

Basic Salary – GBP£4,665.00 gross per month (Based on 30 b/h per
month)
Overtime per b/h – GBP£45.33 per b/h over 30
Overnight Allowance – GBP£51
Home Standby Allowance (should you fly) – GBP£125.00
Airport Standby Allowance (paid for duty) - GBP£125.00
Productivity Pay (Working day off pay Allowance): GBP£518.50** Trade Day


Let's call the above 6000 EUR for 5/4/5/13. If we think about it from a scheduler's perspective, observing the EASA mandatory no-duty days, with a bit of Excel magic: that's exactly 50% part-time.


SPA obviously did their research (mostly imitating without understanding is what they do), and shot an advertisement of 10.000 EUR on 20/10 for 85 hrs - to catch the beholder's eye.
SAIL admits being ready to spend 12000 EUR for 1x full-time LHR based pilot.


After Emirates no longer attractive? After MON and AIB gone? I wish what I see is true.

Let's hope all the methods of squeezing out money from the new cadets and line-training schemes are already exhausted, and our young future colleagues will not be made to pay for the above.

[Lolo75020]

Lolo, I think you may had missed CP's point. He's saying that low-ballers raising the stakes is a sign of trade-winds changing. I agree.

Makes no difference the SPA sheet is just hype (you were probably too exhausted to add "it's GROSS" to your list). It's about what made them do it.

And SAIL feels the same pressure (email about 2 hrs ago):


[/LIST]

Well that's a good sign here indeed... But we are still very far away from what we see in Asian, American or MEA airlines.

[FlightDetent]

Yep. Add China on exactly double the SAIL cash for 3:3 rotation. Multiple employers.

But keeping the thread on SAIL: is it me or could that 5/3/5/13 for 6000 EUR create some good resonance with Wizzair westerners Captains?

[MD80rookie]

Raski

Where are pilots leaving, EZ? Primera with base in BHX/STN?

[Serenity]

Thomas cook Balearics, Thomas Cook, British Airways, EasyJet, and more.....

[BluSdUp]

For info:
Rumor has it RYR is getting 1400 new pilots in 2018.
Correct, 1400.

Happy Recruiting
Happy terms+Conditions

[BluSdUp]

Sorry Raski!
I am thinking of the big picture! For everyone,
How can I put this,,,,?
With Norwegians future secured by the little Irishman , the European market has gotten a lot better the last week.
Pilots voting in RYR. With their feet, Fast . For good reasons!!!

[MD80rookie]

Best of luck to those who are heading for greener grass!

[MD80rookie]

Yes.

According to a pilot that flies for SAIL, 15 out of 58 pilots are leaving or has already left. 25% of contracted staff leaving as soon as something else turns up?!

Will you be able to start the base in Malaga?

[Whisperfail]

CAE recruitment ads seems to not have been updated since mid-April. And the screening dates are old now. Is SAIL finally in line with their needs and have their crews in place? Is Malaga starting up now?

[Serenity]

SAIL are chronically short.
Malaga probably opening, at least until the last person leaves!! 😤

[heavydane]

Latest news from the rumor mill.
2+3 SAIL ac parked in HAM due to lack of crew.
Predict it will be shut down late this year and mainline pilots blamed for the huge loss.

[Horntail]

Another rumor talks about plans of placing the 3 A/C currently stored at XFW in SAS Main instead in order to get them flying. Apparently, CAE/Parc has informed SAS management that they won't be able to supply pilots at terms agreed.

[ATIS]

Doubtful that SAIL will close down. Mainline cannot absorb 9 jets. They are short themselves.

I believe SAIL crews (pilots and cabin) have refused to sign the new contract for the 2nd time. Good on them. A couple of heads have already rolled at CAE. I saw a letter that was sent to the pilots, stating recruitment wasn’t an issue as guys from WOW and EZY were showing a “genuine” interest. 😂😂😂 That dude no longer works for CAE.

Apparently negotiations are ongoing with CAE, SAIL and SAS. Here’s to a positive outcome and improved conditions for all. The crews there actually want to make it a success, but were frustrated by CAE and their denials.

[Floatingbus]

Having been involved with Cae Parc on a different contract I wouldn’t trust them to organise a drinks evening in the Guinness brewery at St James Gate in Dublin.

you made my day mate!

[heavydane]

ATIS,

Better term at SAIL defies the purpose of their existence.
SAS pilots not working on days off over the summer will create havoc and this at the same time as most of the subcontracted airlines can´t deliver.

[Horntail]

@ATIS,

Fact is that it would be easy for SAS Main to absorb 3 A/C into the fleet with little or no notice. And fast recruiting to have them manned with new - most likely rated - jockeys could be done with people being ready and line released within 3-4 months.

SAIL is nothing more than an extension of the plan launched by Lindegaard 15 years ago: Avoid negotiating with unions at all cost; outsource production for the sake of creating competion among the airlines within the SAS Group to get the lowest production cost.
The failed attempts of this strategy so far are Blue1, Spanair and Snowflake. SAIL is headed the same way, where rumors have it that the cost of employing crew has surpassed the cost of a new SAS Main pilot. My bet is that as soon as the current COO of the SAS Group has been sacked, SAIL will be history. I wouldn't sign up for SAIL for a long term perspective.

[Perser_dk]

What about the rumours a "lot of pilots" leaving LHR base for EZY etc? As far as i know there haven't been any issues with crewing at all so far in LHR. All aircrafts seems to be doing 5-7 legs each daily without any problem.
Is the "crewing problem" just hopes from people out there, or is it coming for real?
A friend working in DK for SAS told me management there describe it as a big success so far, not really what it seems like if you read here.. What's the truth?

I have however heard there is a lot of applications in our ("another big A320 operator") database from SAIL pilots..

[anderse]

Latest news from the rumor mill.
2+3 SAIL ac parked in HAM due to lack of crew.
.
EI-SIA,B,C,D,E and F are all flying today.

[BluSdUp]

Hi
As previously stated I was shocked when SAS chose to do this SAIL thing. Mainly for moral reasons, but also for practical and economical reasons!!
It make no sense!
But first a few questions!
Is SAS mainline recruiting in Scandinavia? I know for a fact that 10 pilots has quit to go to Norwegian to get a base they can live with. This has NEVER happened in the Braathen days or recently AFTER SAS offered the ca 400 layoffs to come back as per the Contract.
What is the demand for pilots in SAS , say the next 5 years, considering the enormous ( relative ) retirement in progress.?
It would be nice if any insiders would enlighten us on this, as I have encouraged may FOs to go to SAS as opposed to NOR.

Now for my Rant:
Does anyone with a sound mind and half a degree in trade think it is a good idea to set up shop on Liberia Island , NOW in this environment!
That is , lack of pilots AND RYR being Unionized , and the EU local Tax enforcers FINALLY reading the Job Description they signed!!!
I claim it is the Sweds , our good old fiend, eeerr Friend! The day of a proud nation and Janne Carlson is long gone.
Now it is more like Pippi:" I have never done this before, lets give it a shot, I bet I am good at it"
She often was, but then again she had a chest of Gould in the basement !
End Rant.
Regards
Cpt B

[Whisperfail]

heavy was referring to G H and I


The lists I’m looking at from end of April isn’t up to date (since they are from the end of April ;) ), but I can’t find neither of G, H, or I in the EI registration database. And I can not find any information about their deliveries from Airbus either. Could it be that they actually aren’t delivered yet?

[172_driver]

What is the demand for pilots in SAS , say the next 5 years, considering the enormous ( relative ) retirement in progress.?

"We won't make it through the next summer without hiring." The words of the Flight Deck Manager as I heard them today.

[toffy]

There is a need for heavy reqruitment in SAS Main over the next years. First of all 100-120 new pilots needed just to keep the operation going during the 737 to a320neo transition. Then most likely expansion on long haul when the a350 arrives and on top of that 150-170 pilots retiering each year from 2020 to 2025.

T/C are much better at NAS, there you can almost choose your own base, fixed 5/4 rooster, SAS has variable rooster for 60% of its short haul crew, and pay is 10-15% better at NAS.

Hovever SAS management is living 10 years in the past and believes that contracted crews on european bases is the future, and they are currently downsizing main.

[CaptainProp]

Hovever SAS management is living 10 years in the past and believes that contracted crews on european bases is the future, and they are currently downsizing main.

Spot on. What they haven't realized is that pilot pay and rosters is not what makes SAS so inefficient and non-competitive, and other airlines more efficient and competitive, its all the waste on overhead costs and their complete inability to adapt the business to the ever changing business environment they are operating in.

CP

[BluSdUp]

Thanks for the info.
We all know what this is all about, namely pimping the bride for Lufthansa.
If IAG and the Little Irishman gets hold of Norwegian, SAS has a potential problem , depending how Norwegian is quartered and hung!
I would not want to even start speculating how BA and IAG will use NOR in the Scandinavian market, but SAS will not be stronger!
So it is all about the Sweedish " Blåruss" in Your management trying to get the unit cost down!
Fair enough , but it is dammed hard to run an airline without pilot as RYR Lufttransport and the American Commuters recently has found out.
I just watched the pathetic video of the WestJet CEO crying for mercy to avoid a strike.( On the Canada thread). And he had a point that us FlyBoys tend to forget, namely that the whole company get payed better whenever we get better pay! The Engineers deserves good pay, but the rest NOT.
Pilots tend to think the cabin crew also should get a great pay. I think they should be payed according to education and experience!

Regardless
I have crew that are reluctant to even apply never mind start in SAIL on a Spanish base, and most of you have guessed who I am taking orders from.
SAIL will FAIL!
Lets hope some dumb heads in Stockholm will role and You get a Dane or a Norwegian for Boss!
Lastely.
How long is Your OCC course , 6 weeks until linetraining starts or 4 maybe. Time to hire NOW if the summer is going to be saved!
Hang in there Boys, and support the LOCO pilots fight , we are her to stay! And we fly with the Cadets so You dont have to, . Single pilot OPS at times!
Ha ein god dag.
Cpt B

[matt283]

It seems like package that SAIL offers is completely outdated. Maybe 5years ago they would manage to find some skippers with those conditions on offer.

The main question is if cae realised already that they need to increase significantly the offer to attract any skippers and keep operation going??

I would really like to hear abut that from a insider ;)

[Arewerunning]

I Wonder why nobody call in sick...that works like a charme

[Serenity]

Also you don’t get paid for sick.

Also so if you work less than 15 duties per month you lose all of your £1,0000 Flight pay!!

[GScapture]

Also you don’t get paid for sick.

Also so if you work less than 15 duties per month you lose all of your £1,0000 Flight pay!!

Well that alone is one big reason to leave and stay away from that “company”. Ridiculous.

[squeaker]

Lots of people seem to be leaving, is it really that bad?

[Hoggtart]

Really the company should be called more aptly Monarch. It is a majority of that failed companies pilots that have joined and they are doing there level best to destroy this new venture for SAS. They are refusing to co operate with the operator Cae/Parc and have steadfastly refused acceptance of any new contract offered by Cae/Parc. Its a neat little operation but its not blossoming as the group of sad spoilt former Monarch chaps are determined to spoil a good thing!

[172_driver]

Really the company should be called more aptly Monarch. It is a majority of that failed companies pilots that have joined and they are doing there level best to destroy this new venture for SAS. They are refusing to co operate with the operator Cae/Parc and have steadfastly refused acceptance of any new contract offered by Cae/Parc. Its a neat little operation but its not blossoming as the group of sad spoilt former Monarch chaps are determined to spoil a good thing!

Are they spoilt or do they just put a price on their heads?

Depends on which side of the revelution you're on, but for the pilot community it's in our interest they play hard ball while the market forces act in their direction.

[3MTA3]

I heard that the head of training resigned. The first DFO resigned in January.

[172_driver]

So did the Malaga base open today as I believe was the latest info shared to colleagues at mainline?

[matt283]

Are there any overnights confirmed from malaga or only turnarounds?

[ATIS]

Hoggtart, do you agree with the following?

£62500 basic for an Airbus Captain

£1000 flight pay per month. If you are rostered less than 15 days work, and report sick, you will lose the entire £1000

You've joined for the 5/4 roster. But in order to maintain the schedule they have the right to alter to a random roster (this was introduced in the new contract they refused to sign, not in the original one they signed)

They require a Drs certificate if more than 2 days sick ( I am told this is illegal under UK law)

Do you still believe they are spoilt? They want more than nothing, for this operation to succeed.
If you agree with the above then please send in your CV.

The pilot group tried to engage with CAE (I've seen the letter they sent, trying to address their concerns), but they were met with denial from CAE.

Im at WOW and wanting to return to UK, but not on those terms.

PS It was the entire workforce (cabin crew and pilots) from various airlines who refused to sign. They are not all Monarch. But yes Monarch pilots are the majority.

[Flying Torquewrench]

Hoggtart, on the current contract an Airbus Captain at SAIL is paid around £4300 p/month (based on ATIS figures) and you dare to call that a good thing? Also taking into account that the pension is the legal minimum and therefore will require topping up. Even if that could be done through salary sacrifice then it still puts a big dent in the take home pay.

Hopefully you are a man/woman of your word and won’t sign a new and improved contract if it ever materialises. Seems a bit hypocritical if you would take the new & improved contract whilst at the same time slagging of the people who are fighting for a better contract.

[ATIS]

Hoggtart, looks like you’ve been rumbled. So you’re already at SAIL!! The guys know exactly who you are.

Failed to get a command at Easyjet
Failed to get a command at Etihad
Failed your command interview at SAIL, and now you’ve reported the Head of Training to CAE on a different matter.

So who is the spoilt one?

happy flying.

[BluSdUp]

Thanks for clearing that up, did think Hoggtart sounded a bit odd.
I hope all Monarchs get a good choice , and bring good conditions with them.
I can make more painting houses in Norway then that contract..
Anyway
How is SAIL and SAS doing?
The last in the local paper was that SAS was not happy with the CRJ Irish lot , City Jet i belive as they had over 100 cancellations in May alone.
Can I make a guess poor planing and or lack of crew. Does anyone know.?
You see, the point of out sourcing would be to make it cheaper and more efficient overall . Something the SAS Management has forgotten.

A good summer to All
Cpt B

[HippoDK]

According to management everything is fine and dandy - personally i believe we are gonna see a Norwegian 2.0 this summer. Resources are going to be streched with no reserves all summer.
Cityjet are lacking crew - had some maintenance issues earlier on this year. SAIL obviously also lacking crew. Sling's are already optimized for SAIL out of AGP and LHR so the mainline guy's are now schedueled for nightstops those places to fly the SAIL slings - must be cheap.

Rumer has it SAS mainline will start recruiting in the fall/winter and according to management it will not be a problem - more than 3500 suitable pilots in the hold pool :) We will then further bleed out Cityjet if any are left and willing to accept the sub par starting T&C's in SAS.
Last 2 MPL courses SAS trained all went to Norwegian with a fresh TR and much better pay - go figure. RYR are starting up again in CPH - young experienced FO are already talking about joining....

Meanwhile my phone is going berserk with request for buying days off.

Everybody enjoy your summer...

The Hippo

[ATIS]

Is the Cityjet operation crewed by CAE?

If so, do you see the common problem. It seems SAS didn’t learn from their 1st mistake and have gone back to CAE for the SAIL operation.

It may have been the cheapest, but it’s about to bite them in the backside. Fool me once.............etc

[172_driver]

Don't think CAE crews Cityjet? They've hired pilots through Scandinavian based agencies with collective bargaining agreement. Same with FlyBe.

Second hand info is that cabin crew, at least, from LHR have been sent to AGP to operate from there. I guess some form of CPR to proove to everyone that AGP is open and operating.

[matt283]

Seems like the main problem is the CAE as everything is run by them...

Lets see if SAIL will survive longer than snowflake...

[tubby linton]

Anybody who works for an agency must realise that the employer’s first loyalty is to the airline and the pilot comes last.The situation is skewed because we are currently in a very brief window where the availability of experienced crew is very low

[matt283]

One story if only the contract is with the agency and another story is when agency is actually running whole airline :(

Example: finnair has a base in BCN and crew is contracted by spanish agency, but everything else is run by finnair.

[Alloy]

That figure of £4300/month for a skipper is horrifically low, not surprising they are having recruitment problems.

[BluSdUp]

Wow , that is exactly the average pay in Norway.
And we pay less tax in Norway these days.
Cool
Why would anyone plan on staying there for long.
And PS Malaga is not cheap anymore!!

Every single RYR FO in Malaga that has past 1500hrs makes more: Again Wow.
But then again that is in Reykjavik.

[matt283]

I did not hear about a single ryr agp skipper that applied to sail.

Also seems like EI-SIE did not fly since the 7th of Jun...

[MD80rookie]

Fact: SAS Mainline is opening recruitment this fall. People in hold pool are given start dates in august.
Fact: SAS Ireland can not attract enough qualified, willing, able and suitable candidates.
Rumour: Two airframes headed for SAS Ireland are now going to SAS Mainline.

[matt283]

Fact: SAS Mainline is opening recruitment this fall. People in hold pool are given start dates in august.
Fact: SAS Ireland can not attract enough qualified, willing, able and suitable candidates.
Rumour: Two airframes headed for SAS Ireland are now going to SAS Mainline.


SAS already started to look for cc as well for ARN base, but something is not right there, as at the bottom of the cc job vacancy they wrote:

¨I den här rekryteringen samarbetar vi med CAE. För frågor gällande rekryteringprocessen er du välkommen att kontakta CAE epost...¨

¨In this recruitment we work with CAE. For questions regarding the recruitment process, you are welcome to contact CAE email...¨

[BluSdUp]

Good to hear that SAS is taking in more pilots, a lot of tired LOCO commuters that wants home!
Now the question is can they afford to start?

With regards to CAE
They have come a long way from building simulators.
In ca 2003 they bought Schreiner FlightcrewTraining as it was the 4 biggest at the time and Schreiner almost bankrupt.
We told them how a TRTO was run and everyone was happy.
Then the acquired some agency to milk that market to, and I am not sure they got the timing and the expertise right on that one.
Does not look like it in this case. .

[CaptainProp]

Pretty sure SAS mainline will not be able to attract enough experienced pilots from the LOCOs around Europe. Spoke to a BA captain recently and even they are struggling to get enough people as pay is not competitive enough and nobody wants to fly SH out of LHR.

[linmar]

Captin Prop, I agree with you. In order to lower costs by opening up SAS Ireland and LHR base SAS needed to keep the terms and conditions significantly lower than any competitor in UK. Ryanair permenant contracts (which are now offered to almost all the pilots) are miles better than SAS Ireland/CAE. The same goes for starting with SAS in Scandinavia. Apart from the other problems Ryanair pilots are facing in regards to their employer, pay, pension and roster is a lot better in Ryanair than SAS (both main and LHR/AGP).

The same goes for Norwegian right now, especially in the Nordic countries where they just hired quite a lot of pilots.

So SAS will be looking to hire pilots from the regional airlines (luckily for them, Nextjet just went belly up so there are some 80 pilots there, although quite a few of them has already been scooped up by the likes of Flybe, Cityjet, BRA etc.) or the still shady outfits with bogus self-employment and these pilots see that a career at SAS is not what it was 15 years ago, there are better options out there. Easy are hiring 900 pilots this year I read and the SAS main contract is substantially lower than Easy.

Although SAS claim to have 3000 applications in their datebase, I would think that 9 out of 10 of those are not interested in joining when they understand what the pay is and how and how much an SAS pilot actually works these days.

A quick comparison: Two pilots (both rated with 1500 hours) start at SAS ARN and Norweigan ARN respectively. After 20 years of service and 10 years to command the Norwegian pilot will have earned more than 20% better than the SAS pilot and the company contributed pension will be worth about 45% more than of the SAS pilot. The same story goes for most other airlines too unless you look at the likes of Primera, Air Baltic, Nordica (Regional Jet), Smartlynx etc.

[dirk85]

Plenty of scandinavian pilots in our base (european orange lowcost), and nobody is even remotely interested in joining SAS. Pay significantly higher where they are now, and better rosters too.

[172_driver]

I am not so sure they won't find pilots for mainline. It wasn't a problem when recruitment opened in 2013 on a terrible pay. There is more to it than roster and pay. Proximity to friends amd family, particularly relevant when about to start a family. Some Scandis find themselves home abroad, many come home when the opportunity arise.

As for Norwegian, I believe SK Norway has seen quite a few people leave to NAS. Wasn't it in large for getting based closer to home? While there's been plenty of talk I really only know one in SK Sweden that has gone over. And that's stuff that usually spreads like wildfire.

[BluSdUp]

Indeed,ca 6 months ago I bumped into a pilot I used to fly with , and he said SAS HQ was shocked to see 10 pilots leave for NOR , to get home and better pay and quicker upgrade.
Interesting times indeed.

[CaptainProp]

I am not so sure they won't find pilots for mainline. It wasn't a problem when recruitment opened in 2013 on a terrible pay. There is more to it than roster and pay. Proximity to friends amd family, particularly relevant when about to start a family. Some Scandis find themselves home abroad, many come home when the opportunity arise.

Yes, in 2013 I'm sure they did. Now its 2018 and the aviation world looks very different. Let's see.

CP

[linmar]

I am not so sure they won't find pilots for mainline. It wasn't a problem when recruitment opened in 2013 on a terrible pay. There is more to it than roster and pay. Proximity to friends amd family, particularly relevant when about to start a family. Some Scandis find themselves home abroad, many come home when the opportunity arise.

As for Norwegian, I believe SK Norway has seen quite a few people leave to NAS. Wasn't it in large for getting based closer to home? While there's been plenty of talk I really only know one in SK Sweden that has gone over. And that's stuff that usually spreads like wildfire.



Things have changed in the past 5 years. And many of the pilots that joined in 2013 and 2014 didn't even know the terms and conditions when they started. I've met a couple that was promised the old main pay scale when they joined but then realized there was a B scale in place.

5 years ago there was no SAS Ireland, Cityjet wasn't flying 22 ac, no Estonian company was wet leased and the general pilot market wasn't what it is today.

What is (was?) attractive with SAS is common seniority, long haul in house, basing close to home etc. But if RG gets his will through, those things are gone leaving it a company with substandard terms and no career prospects.

Time will tell.

[172_driver]

I guess it will much depend on where you put the bar, esp. hours and language proficiency. That'd be something.....!!
At least the recruitment team is still made up of pilots, thank god.

[Life on top]

SAS Main is to hire with courses starting in August, but I wouldn’t recommend anyone to apply there. You are about 15 years from an upgrade, and wages are one of the worst in Scandiland. In addition they are cancelling alot of flights theese days, and the mood on the lines are terrible. Especially experienced crew are much better of staying and aiming for an upgrade somewhere else. Stay clear of the trap of «a Scandinavian dream». The company is torn apart with internal conflicts for many years now.

[linmar]

I guess it will much depend on where you put the bar, esp. hours and language proficiency. That'd be something.....!!
At least the recruitment team is still made up of pilots, thank god.



Yes, of course. Still plenty of young cadets out there who wouldn't hesitate for a second to join SAS, especially in Sweden where about 150 new pilots are trained every year (at least that's the number of new-issued CPL/MPL annually). I seem to recall back in the day when SAS hired cadets, mainly from TFHS, that they required a 1:2 ratio, that is for every applicant that passed the selection process, two were failed (this from the late 90's or early 00's).

If my information is correct that ratio was 2:1 in 2014-2016, although it should be noted that the vast majority of pilots called for assessment in these years were experienced pilots and not cadets.

However I don't think neither SAS Main nor SAS Ireland can handle being companies with high turnover ratio and hiring mainly cadets. In a few years, maybe, but the training capacity isn't big enough to handle that at the moment. For SAS Ireland, rumour is that the training department is falling apart after CAE has utterly failed in providing enough resources into the TD.

[BluSdUp]

How can you have an AOC with no one responsible for training.Has principle rule changed since 1999?

RYR for example had no TRTO and got CAE and SAS Flight Academy to do Type Ratings.
But they sure had a training department that ordered CAE and SAS around . I think SAS is playing with fire , what if there is an accident and the local NTSB digs deep.
Utter incompetent mother company administration, and a mailbox for Training!

SAS has done good , but they can not afford to mess this up!
I love flying with them , but this looks like a bad joke.

Good Luck
Cpt B

[SMT Member]

Regardless of who does the training, for such a thing can legally be outsourced, any airline operating under EASA rules must have a NP training. No if's, but's or when's. There is, however, nothing stopping an airline assigning multiple postholder hats to a single person, provided they can argue their case to the regulating NAA. With this in mind, the NP Training hat may well be hung on another NP, probably flight ops.

It's not the way I'd run a train set, but it's not illegal.

[ATIS]

I'm hearing flights are regularly being cancelled now due to lack of crews. Most crews refusing to work days off until a vastly improved contract appears. So CAE have employed contract Captains to bridge the gap. Also a few regular pilots who don't mind the shoddy contract and volunteering to work their days off. Out for themselves only. Screw the rest.

[matsemann]

Out for themselves only. Screw the rest.


This is what SAS mainline pilots feel about any SAIL pilot...

[BluSdUp]

The Norwegian State has decided to sell all its ca 10% of the total SAS stocks.
The stocks will be available on the Børs.( Olso or Stockholm, dont know)

Something is mowing in Europe. Is Lufthansa getting Norwegian AND SAS?.
Me thinks so.
Been wrong before.

Good luck to all Flight Crew
Regards
Cpt B

[Maxfli]

The Norwegian State has decided to sell all its ca 10% of the total SAS stocks.
The stocks will be available on the Børs.( Olso or Stockholm, dont know)


https://www.reuters.com/article/us-sas-norway-sale/norway-to-sell-its-remaining-shares-in-sas-airline-idUSKBN1JM2CO

[EIFFS]

An Irish AOC is not be all and end all of operators dreams, I’m reasonably confident that if Bjørn really did have crystal testies he would not go down that path again, the IAA required NAI went back to paper flight deck for 8 months despite NAS/NAN having been paperless for 4 years, same with NAI 737 long haul, crayons and plotting charts are the order of the day, at least it stops you getting bored, seems the IAA adult team can’t read down loaded files on servers, but can read 1000’s of scraps of paper and Oceanic clearances.

i have heard from several normally reliable sources that it costs Norwegian more to run things through NAI than NAS/NAN the Labour certainly isn’t cheap and reverting to a Swedish AOC that will allow NUK/NAS/NAI pilots to fly across AOC is on the cards, remember that NAI is not Norwegian Air Ireland, but Norwegian Air International

[BluSdUp]

So were does a Swedish AOC come in.
Is that to get overfly rights over Russia, as have been the problem with a Norwegian AOC.
Why another AOC, or maybe you are wrong?

[737 Jockey]

So were does a Swedish AOC come in.
Is that to get overfly rights over Russia, as have been the problem with a Norwegian AOC.
Why another AOC, or maybe you are wrong?


Swedish AOC is apparently in the pipeline particularly for the Siberian overflight rights and to get away from the hassle of the IAA. US Pilots have been sat on their butts on full pay for well over a year now as the IAA won’t grant authority for FAA licensed Pilots to fly EI reg aircraft. In EasyJet, Pilots can fly G and OE reg in th same day without any problems.

[matt283]

SAS Ireland still flying and doesn't even look like they cancel flights due to lack of pilots.

I wonder if there are any improvements on the contracts or still nothing?

[172_driver]

SAS Ireland still flying and doesn't even look like they cancel flights due to lack of pilots.

How would you know? SAS is cancelling lots of flights at the moment and the reason for that is manline is short of pilots, Cityjet is short, SAIL not sure. I guess they dispose resources to minimize the damage. You do know right that mainline is flying out of Malaga? That's an indication to me that SAIL is not flying what it was supposed to fly and SAS is cancelling in the Nordics to cover up.

[matt283]

I based my comment on looking at SAS Ireland 6 a/c on flight radar today and all of them seems to fly.

ei-sia, ei-sib and ei-sie did first wave departures from agp.

[172_driver]

Says little about the overall crewing situation though.

I believe there are a couple of Neos without engines parked up in Hamburg destined for SAIL. Possibly the engine issues cover up the crewing issues. Who knows. SAS hasn't managed the crew shortage very well. And the public speech in Sweden that is what due to crew calling sick en mass was ridiculous and no less manipulative than O'Learys weak attempt at covering up their crewing issue last year.

[matt283]

I heard crew based in spain for sas ireland is on the temporary english contract and paying taxes in ireland :eek:

Anybody able to confirm that?

[ATIS]

New contracts out.

Pension increased to 5%. (Have to, by UK law. But there is a maximum amount you can save)

£1000/£1500 yearly allowance towards the cost of LOL. FO/CPT

No increase in pay. And in return they can adjust to a random roster in order to crew the flights.

And this is supposed to solve their crewing crisis. Stick that up your a**

[Perser_dk]

not suprised at all.
TCs remain the same, crap, and this is why pilots are leaving.
Only youngsters remain, or skippers willing for part time.
SAIL will not go far.
I assume the last 3 aircrafts will be sent directly to Scandiland.
I think this experiment was a failure like the previous ones attempted by SAS mainline.

When will they be delivered? Is the crew situation really that bad, what about recruitment?
Today I see all aircrafts are flying..
Are more people about to leave?

[Life on top]

When will they be delivered? Is the crew situation really that bad, what about recruitment?
Today I see all aircrafts are flying..
Are more people about to leave?

EI-SIF only flying OSL-LHR-OSL with one hour delay due to FLIGHT DECK CREW SHORTAGE. And TOS was cancelled this morning to move an mainline A/C to AMS due to SAIL shortage according to my friend.

[ATIS]

Not quite true.

Large age range in both seats, with a very high Union membership. BALPA, IPA and SELPA. Probably about 90% are refusing to work days off until there's a drastic improvement. So many are refusing easy money now in the hope of more rewards later.

CAE are a bunch of misers, and probably don't want to fork out money for a CCQ onto A320

[Whisperfail]

It’s an impressive amount of recruitment ads and mails they have had for the positions in SAIL, not to mention all the screening days...

And for what, 40 positions? Wonder what all that have cost...

[MD80rookie]

From CAE Parc Aviation Facebook:

"Great day at CAE London Gatwick! Thank you to all our fantastic candidates who attended, and the very helpful CAE staff.

Next week we are in Manchester!

SAS Ireland our partner airline continue to grow and develop their London Heathrow base!

This is a perfect opportunity for Airbus Fleet Captains and A320 First Officers to enjoy a stable roster and be in command of the newest fleet of A320neo aircraft."

Continue to grow? Develop their LHR base? Stable Roster?

I have checked SAIL traffic regularity in our (SAS) system - it's quite an impressing amount of flights cancelled due to lack of flight deck crew, or delayed flight due to flight deck crew shortage.

[Perser_dk]

I heard the next A320 "EI-SIG" just did another "test flight" today and is planned to operate from Thursday this week.
Must have been some new crew joining?

[matt283]

I heard the next A320 "EI-SIG" just did another "test flight" today and is planned to operate from Thursday this week.
Must have been some new crew joining?


I heard about cancellations due to lack of both flight crew and cabin crew due to very bad t&c...

[matt283]

Very high turnover of staff is always indicator of very bad t&c.

I think SAIL were very lucky to start the operation after Monarch bankruptcy.

However now with base in Malaga I don't see anybody who would be interested to work for them.

Only option would be very low hours guys straight after flight school, but they ask for min 500h on a320, so it doesn't work for them neither...

The main question is how much longer they will try to keep it working?
Another thing is why they don't even try to raise the t&c?

[SMT Member]

Another thing is why they don't even try to raise the t&c?

Why, because lower T&C is the sum total of SAIL's reason for being. SAIL is an effort to circumvent the, relatively, high T&C enjoyed in Scandinavia. The most deplorable thing about SAIL is not the company itself, but rather accepting the thing becoming a reality by 'legacy' staff members. Someone posted a map of the routes expected to be flown by SAIL, and only a small proportion are to/from LHR and AGP - the rest is all around Europe and intra-Scandinavia. That's not how SAIL was initially sold to SAS employees, but anyone with just two functioning brain cells should have told themselves, that a fleet of 9 aircraft is way more than is needed to operate LHR-Scandi and AGP-Scandi.

[172_driver]

I think we all realized quite quickly what the real intent of SAIL was. The unions have stood helpless watching this unfold with little they could, legally, do. One wonders if the current panic recruitment to mainline is a result of failed recruitment to SAIL. I read in the news today, for what it's worth, that 80 % of the SK-cancellations are due to the inability of SAIL and CityJet to deliver and mainline has stepped in to cover up.

[matt283]

OK, so is it very likely that SAS after the summer season will absorb SAIL a/c and close this experiment??

[Whisperfail]

No. SAS Will never admit anything wrong here. They will continue with the project and eventually get the crew needed. But the company will bleed for a while.

[EIFFS]

Meanwhile Norwegian have applied for a Swedish AOC which they expect to be granted by the fall, application to the US authorities may take a little longer.

Given the companies stated objective to streamline and harmonise AOC’s there is much speculation that the Swedish authorities will allow cross AOC flying by pilots from NAS/NAN/NUK the IAA are not so keen apparently.

maybe the grass is not so green in Ireland and after all

[BluSdUp]

Cherry Picking AOCs , nice one.
I do think this Industry has gone bonkers mad.
In Europe , that is supposed to be the same!

Or are they hunting for The Competent Authority and finding none,,,,,,,,

[directmisbi]

All bases going dot SE register within a year. Watch this space..

[Perser_dk]

All bases going dot SE register within a year. Watch this space..
It's interesting how Norwegian decide to move back to Scandinavia and SAS to move out. But that's offtopic here I think.

Anyone in the company that can confirm there is new pilots starting, where do they come from?
According to FR24 both yesterday and today all planes seems to be operating according to plan (4-6 legs each).
Strange when last weeks been a disaster, then things hit media and suddenly there is enough pilots?
Is the agreement for bought days off changed?

[SMT Member]

No. SAS Will never admit anything wrong here. They will continue with the project and eventually get the crew needed. But the company will bleed for a while.

If anything, history has taught us differently. SAS is historically very volatile to negative financial and operational reports, and have cut off limbs (so to say) on several previous occasions. If the current occupational climate for pilots persist, SAIL and any other airline offering sub-par conditions may encounter a prolonged pressure, they're unable to withstand under their current business model. Then it's either fold or pay, a trend currently experienced on the US commuter market. A 'pay' solution may effectively undermine the very reason for SAIL's being, and then it's not a far cry to suspect a fold and absorption of crew and aircraft into mainline.

SAS's biggest worry right now seems to be CityJet, who are allegedly the main reason for mainline SAS pilots working serious overtime. And here's the thing I don't get: First they outsource your jobs to bottom feeders (employment condition wise), and when they can't crew their contracted flights it falls back to you to cover, and you accept it. See, right there is where my sympathy for their loss of jobs takes a rather dominant nosedive.

[MD80rookie]

How many pilots have left SAS Ireland since the start and how many have started? I am looking for net numbers, a rough estimate. Hugh internal debate in SAS right now. They are slowly starting to admit that airplanes actually need pilots to fly them..

[LEMG]

EI-SIG is about to carry out her first flight ARN-LHR in a few minutes.

[matt283]

Seems like they found a skipper to fly EI-SIG, can't say the same about EI-SIB today...

This morning ARN-LHR on EI-SIG already cancelled as well:uhoh:

[MD80rookie]

The staffing situation in SAS Ireland (SAIL) is apparently at a critical level... With another aircraft arrived, panic has spread...

SAS Scandinavia's pilots have been asked to help out by working on days off.

And management is admitting that recruitment for SAIL is where the problem is - like everyone predicted.

[turbine100]

I think the issue is the terms and package need to be improved. People are joining and then leaving.

[BluSdUp]

Lolo
Now that question is easy to answer: Unions with no clue!

Regards
Cpt B
NF
IFALPA member

[Skipping Classes]

Everybody knows the issue
They prefer cancel flights and asks the guys to work eventually on days off, promise them better roster, part time, good work environment, every thing that's is actually free instead of moving the cue of real salaries for every body.
​​​​​It seems to be like that in all other companies that pay shamely. (eurowings, Austrian, primera, small planet, smartlynx, travel service, vueling, etc)

The question is that why almost everywhere in the world salaries are higher and not in Europe.
Europe 5000€ gross vs China 25000€ net....

Because nobody wants to live in China.

[APU_inop]

Europe 5000€ gross vs China 25000€ net....
25k eur net? :sad:

[CaptainProp]

25k eur net? :sad:

Yes.

CP

[matt283]

I thought agreement was to put 9 a/c for SAS Ireland and now seems like they have 7 active a/c and waiting for delivery of 3 more.

Did something change...?

[MD80rookie]

Well, judging by the staffing situation at the Malaga "base" it's very unlikely that a total of 10 airframes will be int traffic anytime soon.

Last night they made a crew change in CPH to operate CPH-AGP. Why would you do that? because you need to transfer people to AGP from LHR where the few that still are left is based. This particular flight was 2 hours delayed "awaiting crew from another flight".

Soon, SAS will have to wetlease to cover the wetlease gone wrong...

[BluSdUp]

SAS cancelled 500 flights in July and are buying days off to the tune of 2600e a day.
Time to dump the numnuts in management?

[CaptainProp]

I’m surprised they have even been able to crew 7 aircraft!! Goes to show how many numbnut colleagues we have out there who are willing to accept T&Cs on offer.

CP

[Serenity]

According to CEO of SAIL the last two aircraft won’t be seen before end of the year.
They can’t crew them!!

[BluSdUp]

Super experienced Cpts , no doubt!

[CaptainProp]

Offering freelance contracts now as well. About 60% of daily rate when compared to standard freelance rates.

CP

[matt283]

I wonder if parc finally created Spanish contract of employment or pilots are still employed under uk intention of employment contract...?

[dcoded]

Perhaps this is a bit out of thread, but:

A question that has been popping in my head for the last year is why SAS is using two different strategies to "lower" their cost?
Why do they use external wet-lease providers(Regional Jet, CityJet, Air Nostrum), when they have established their "own" wet-lease provider SAIL?

I am curious as to why SAS wants to use both?
Since external providers certainly will try to generate a profit for them selves, the cost of operations must be higher than to use an "in house" wet-lease (SAIL)?

Or why didn't they simply put the Airbus 320 on Air Nostrum or CityJet? CityJet certainly acquired the CRJs mainly for the SAS contract.
What would stop them from adding the airbus to their AOC?

[BluSdUp]

Control.
CityJet flights are being cancelled left right and center for a long time. They are just not up to the job. Never mind winter in Scandinavia.
CJ can not get enough crew for the time being.
SAS HQ is not happy, according an article last week.

[matt283]

And why SAS could not establish Irish AOC on their own like norwegian? Why doing all those outsourcing with parc to run the SAIL?

[dcoded]

I understand that SAS wants control.
But the cancellations started shortly after acquiring Cimber, in mid 2017 when people started to flee the excellent company structure and subsequent treatment of staff which CityJet was offering at that time.
The SAIL project was started even further back in 2016 (if I remember correctly), prior to the mass cancellations.

We all understand that SAS are not happy with CityJet, but what actions can actually be done now to mitigate the fiasco?
Terminate the contract with CityJet and lease the AC over to SAIL?

But the main question remains.
What could be possible reasons to float their own wet-lease, yet wet-lease from a third party onto their own network?
Or could we just assume, like many of SAS other great projects, that there is no actual plan behind?

[Payscale]

Is the LHR pattern 5/4/5/13 and the Malaga 6/3?
Very very different rotation. What is the major reason people are not joining or running away? Where do the go?

[matt283]

They can’t organise and train the crews they have.
They have a lack of trainers and management with more to leave.
The spanish contract is similar to LHR but in Euros and 6/3 wrk pattern. Every flight is Spain/Scandinavia. 4+hrs each way.
Little in the way of night stops so money is less.
Mans there’s a clause in the contract that they can change your base or roster pattern if they like!



To me it looks like all the ¨great ex ryr minds¨ created those t&c...

[MD80rookie]

Fact: Aircraft #8 for SAIL that was to be EI-SIH is now going to SAS Scandinavia (funny name, isn't it...) and will be SE-ROP and the next one in line will be SE-RON.

Rumours: The LHR base might disappear in favor for AGP (to cover the apparent difficulties in recruiting pilots for LHR)

[ATIS]

8 & 9 are off to Scandinavia. To be returned early in 2019.

BALPA are working furiously behind the scenes with CAE in order to improve the package. For me it's too late, I'm leaving WOW to go somewhere warmer. Was really hoping to join SAIL, but not on those poxy conditions. I know of 8 people who are currently sitting on job offers elsewhere, but they are waiting to see what CAE/BALPA come up with. It's crunch time for CAE.

Becareful what you wish for. If SAIL fails, that's the end of SAS. Norway doesn't want it (anyone bought Norway's share yet?)
And Lufthansa did a runner years ago. I recently positioned on SAS 5 times. Worst load factor I have ever seen on an airbus/737. And the cabin crew were miserable as hell.

Good luck all, counting the days to retirement.

[matt283]

Fact: Aircraft #8 for SAIL that was to be EI-SIH is now going to SAS Scandinavia (funny name, isn't it...) and will be SE-ROP and the next one in line will be SE-RON.

Rumours: The LHR base might disappear in favor for AGP (to cover the apparent difficulties in recruiting pilots for LHR)


I thought the situation in AGP is even worse than LHR...

[Perser_dk]

What's the latest about the new contract?
It's in the news today that SAS reduces the traffic this winter due to SAIL..
On the other hand operations seems very smooth since a few weeks back?

[WeMadeYou]

8 & 9 are off to Scandinavia. To be returned early in 2019.

BALPA are working furiously behind the scenes with CAE in order to improve the package. For me it's too late, I'm leaving WOW to go somewhere warmer. Was really hoping to join SAIL, but not on those poxy conditions. I know of 8 people who are currently sitting on job offers elsewhere, but they are waiting to see what CAE/BALPA come up with. It's crunch time for CAE.

Becareful what you wish for. If SAIL fails, that's the end of SAS. Norway doesn't want it (anyone bought Norway's share yet?)
And Lufthansa did a runner years ago. I recently positioned on SAS 5 times. Worst load factor I have ever seen on an airbus/737. And the cabin crew were miserable as hell.

Good luck all, counting the days to retirement.


SAS just posted a 200 million Euro profit for last three months despite SAIL burning money and cancelling flights. Just by reading your post I'm sure you were the most miserable person on those flights.

[BluSdUp]

Now a large share of that was my 300euro ticket last month from Hamburg to Bergen.
Very friendly cabin crew, but then she was old Braathens.
Anyway.
Time to drop SAIL and Cimber , which they are taking to court, by the way.
Replace management with some Danes.
The present lot has lost the plot.
Anyway
Grattis Grabbar
Regards
Cpt B

[ShamrockF]

Time to drop SAIL and Cimber , which they are taking to court, by the way.


Taking SAIL or CityJet to court? Cimber no longer exists. Also, why on earth would they bring SAIL to court when they're all part of the same group?

Sounds like cockpit rumours which are as high as the clouds.

[Easyheat]

Challenges of getting the traffic program together with SAS's largest provider of CRJ900 flights, Irish CityJet, has prompted the Scandinavian carrier to look after new business partners.

Estonian Regional Jet - already providing flights to SAS with ATR72 aircraft - has been hired to assist a CRJ900 aircraft on routes from Copenhagen during the period 24 September to 30 November.

In total, Regional Jets CRJ900 will return 52 flights for SAS per week to destinations such as Birmingham, Bologna, Munich, Bucharest, Geneva, Warsaw, Trondheim and Tallinn - all flights of flights operated mainly by CityJet.

SAS and Regional Jet have entered into a so-called ACMI agreement, which means that Regional Jet delivers aircraft with crew, maintenance and insurance to SAS.

TALLINN SETTING ON DANISH ROUTES
Regional Jet, a subsidiary of the Estonian state-owned company Nordica, has already helped SAS with a CRJ700 aircraft since July, but now it was upgraded with a further flight.

The CRJ900 aircraft must service the SAS route from a local-owned Tallinn, not covered by the agreement applicable to the staff of Regional Jets ATR72 operations for SAS.

In this regard, SAS's press department informs in an email that SAS expects from their external partners that employees must have local competitive conditions consistent with the country in which they are based.

The Aerospace Personnel Union, which has the agreement for the employees of Regional Jets ATR72 operations for SAS in Denmark, states that it is keeping a close watch on the extent of Regional Jets other tasks for SAS.

[matt283]

In this regard, SAS's press department informs in an email that SAS expects from their external partners that employees must have local competitive conditions consistent with the country in which they are based.


Meanwhile crew based in Malaga for SAS Ireland have english contract, paying income tax in ireland as far as I understand...

[Easyheat]

Meanwhile crew based in Malaga for SAS Ireland have english contract, paying income tax in ireland as far as I understand...


In other words, SAS don't give a rats arse where the crew is based, what contract they are on, and where they work, as long as the subcontractors (CAE, Cityjet, Regional OU etc.), provide them with regional and short haul flights to and from Scandinavia.

[172_driver]

Meanwhile crew based in Malaga for SAS Ireland have english contract, paying income tax in ireland as far as I understand...

Is it not so that London crew has night stops in Malaga? They still start- and finish duty in London. Anyone in SAIL mind sharing that info?

I see SK mainline is getting some London rotations back. Even night stops. Good for us.

[172_driver]

In other words, SAS don't give a rats arse where the crew is based, what contract they are on, and where they work, as long as the subcontractors (CAE, Cityjet, Regional OU etc.), provide them with regional and short haul flights to and from Scandinavia.

Certainly so. After the rather sweet summer (money wise, + 200 Billion euro) they proclaimed the current operating strategy has paid off, not specifying exactly what they meant with that. Reading between the lines they justified the current setup with subcontractors. However I suspect the charter is what brought in the big money, not the sad story of cancellations due lack of crew at SAIL and Cityjet.

[Easyheat]

luftfart.nu:

Extra flights from no fewer than six different airlines fly - or will fly in the near future - for SAS. The reason is that SAS's permanent supplier of CRJ900 aircraft, CityJet, lacks staff.

The companies in which SAS leases capacity counts German WDL Aviation, Faroese Atlantic Airways, Estonian Regional Jet OÜ and Danish Danish Air Transport, Jet Time and Alsie Express.

"It is common for our industry to use ad hoc partners while we have long-term strategic partners. Ad hoc partners are usually hired due to various reasons such as aircraft, engineering, crew capacity, etc., "writes Mariam Skovfoged, Press Officer in SAS, in an email to the editorial board adding:

»During the autumn we use several operators until our long-term partner CityJet has recruited the crew they need. '

ONE THIRD OF THE PILOTS HAS LEFT CITYJET
Just over a month ago, staff shortages in CityJet by The Irish Times were linked with over 700 canceled SAS flights in just three months.

In the spring it came to light that about one third of the Danish pilots in CityJet had chosen to leave their position.

"Many have gotten enough because they feel that CityJet is constantly challenging the terms of our agreement," said an anonymous pilot at that time.

Since then, the employees' union, the Airline's Personal Union, FPU, accused CityJet of not less than eight breaches of the employee's agreement and raised the company in the Labor Court.

The editorial board has contacted CityJet, but is still waiting to hear from the company.

JET TIME PRIORITIES ASSISTANCE TO SAS
Of the temporary staff who will assist SAS in the coming months, Regional Jet is already flying for SAS with ATR72 aircraft. From mid September to end of November, the company will also assist with a CRJ900 on 52 weekly flights to destinations such as Birmingham, Bologna, Munich, Bucharest, Geneva, Warsaw, Trondheim and Tallinn - all flights of flights operated mainly by CityJet.

From the Danish Jet Time, which also flew to SAS in spring 2018, the assistance to SAS consists of a Boeing 737-700. Jet Time will produce 270 block hours for SAS over the next three months, says Birthe Madsen, Deputy Director of Jet Time, to the editorial board.

"It is a nice task for a company of our size. After a busy summer, we now have free capacity to fly ACMI tasks (hire of airplane with crew, maintenance and insurance red.) And here SAS is first in line, "she says.

Jet Time will fly SAS routes from Copenhagen to Bologna, Manchester, Brussels, Trondheim and home base for SAS's Irish subsidiary, London.

Just SAS's subsidiary, SAS Ireland, abbreviated SAIL, has also had certain challenges with deliveries as agreed to the parent company during the summer months with 61 cancellations in July.

The other airlines with which SAS has leased capacity consists of the assistance of a British Aerospace 146 (WDL Aviation), an Airbus A319 (Atlantic Airways), a Mcdonnell Douglas MD-82 (Danish Air Transport) and ATR72-500 (Alsie Express ).

[ATIS]

Surely, demonstrating poor standards are not acceptable is a good thing. If you don’t make the grade, then you’re chopped. Just like in any decent airline.

I hear BALPA and CAE have agreed new terms. This may just entice crew from WOW and possibly Turkish who want to come back home.

[Start Fore]

Absolutely ATIS, but the reason their getting crap applicants who can't fly to save their lives is because the T and Cs on offer. Serves them right if SAIL goes under. Bottom feeders.

[ATIS]

Quite possibly CAE have now seen the light. No idea what the new deal is yet.

I’d love to know where these guys that failed are currently flying, several of them were Captains.

[matt283]

Quite possibly CAE have now seen the light. No idea what the new deal is yet.

I’d love to know where these guys that failed are currently flying, several of them were Captains.

If CAE would offer simillar package as for example norwegian or ezy in both Uk and Spanish bases they would never had problem with recruitment...

I beleive most of the people would be able to sacrifice 10% of their income for a base in Malaga or Heathrow with fixed 5-4 roster, however I do not see anybody willing to sacrifice 50% of their income, not to mention dodgy agency contract...

Another story - imagine if you are a skipper who passed today interview and you getting offered start date for tomorrow, would you think it is serious company?

[heavydane]

It is beyond me why several participants in this thread keeps talking about CAEs ability to change things.
CAE are pimps, pimping a lowball contract at instructed by their masters, SAS.
It is not that difficult and by the way BALPA should stay well clear of this operation only designed to lower T&C for mainline SAS pilots.

Heavydane

[ATIS]

Errr shouldn’t that be SAS are the PIMPS, CAE are the hookers and the crews are ..................

Like it or not, the pilots stuck together for once and refused to help out CAE in their hour of need as many of the earlier promises were broken. Let’s see if BALPA have pulled a rabbit out of the hat.

[Easyheat]

Errr shouldn’t that be SAS are the PIMPS, CAE are the hookers and the crews are ..................

Like it or not, the pilots stuck together for once and refused to help out CAE in their hour of need as many of the earlier promises were broken. Let’s see if BALPA have pulled a rabbit out of the hat.


The problem with these sub contractors SAIL, Cityjet etc. is that its only a temporary solution for the employees. Nobody became a pilot to work for the bottom of the food chain. Why would anybody stay in these companies, if being offered a job elsewhere (or anywhere for that matter), hence they lack crews. Not because there are not enough pilots with a CRJ 900 rating or a A320, but because there is no retention plan, once the pilot is out of his training bond (in Cityjet), or (in SAIL) being offered an A320 job elsewhere.

It seems to me that the attitude in SAIL and Cityjet etc. is: We know that we have nothing to offer, and we will not compete with other companies, so we might as well screw the pilots as much as possible, as long as we have them.

[Easyheat]

Seems like the Norwegians will do something against this social dumping, from abcnyheter.no:

Politicians believe SAS is approaching social dumping through its Irish subsidiary, and will consider legislative change. "Does not match reality," says SAS.
"This is obviously in the direction of social dumping. There is an evolution in aviation we will not delete. We now look at how we can tighten up the provisions of the Working Environment Act, "says Arild Grande (AP) in the Storting's Employment and Social Committee for ABC News.
He receives support from colleagues in the same committee:
"Today, SAS management balances on the edge of the law and always fits in undermining today's law while not being convicted of it," says Per Olaf Lundteigen (Sp), and announces he will go for legislative change if needed.
"I think SAS should sharpen. They should not go ahead to tear down our own good working life, complementing Solfrid Lerbrekk (SV).
Last Thursday ABC News wrote that SAS management will continue to build overseas. Today, how much can be flown by other than SAS pilots through negotiated agreements. The low cost airlines have no such limitations.
With nine machines in SAS Ireland, SAS will be close to the limit of the tariff agreement that expires in 2019.

"It is not uncommon for the board of directors to be in charge of the board and management of a company. I think it is quite natural for SAS to work this way too, "said Gustafson to Dagens Næringsliv after SAS reported a record profit of almost 2 billion after the third quarter.
The statement provoked strongly the Norwegian SAS Pilots Association (NSF).
According to chairman Christian Laulund, SAS is flying pilots from the subsidiary SAS Ireland (SAIL) to operate SAIL machines in the regular grid. These are employed by an Irish agency, and have lower pay and poorer conditions than regular staff pilots in the parent company.
"If it's not social dumping, I do not know: They bring labor early on Monday morning, and fly them home Friday," said Laulund.
He added that they did not pay taxes to Norway, and that SAS had no Norwegian employer's contribution.League leader Yngve Carlsen of the Norwegian Air Force Association says he has discussed the issue with the LO management. They respond to pilots from SAS Ireland being accommodated in hotels in Scandinavia for several days, and flying SAIL machines from Oslo, Stockholm and Copenhagen on routes that pilots in the motherhood SAS usually have flown.

If that's right, such a practice is both sensational and problematic, "Carlsen told ABC News.
According to Carlsen, it violates rules of the International Labor Organization (ILO). The basic principle is that migrant workers must be treated equally with the host country's employees in terms of salary, working conditions and social rights.
"How much of the pilots in SAIL moved from the bases in Malaga and London to" position "themselves is in this context, says the federal leader.

[Easyheat]

Also from abcnyheter.no

Pilots are strongly provoked by management's claim that their flagged Irish subsidiary has contributed extra good to billion profits for the company after a summer where they themselves have set up on days off to spare passengers.
The reason for their extra effort is that the subsidiary SAS Ireland (SAIL) has not had enough pilots, which contributed to a series of cancellations for SAS this summer. 100,000 passengers were hit by the chaos.
"It can be hardly characterized as anything but a good bluff, writes the board of the Norwegian SAS Airways Association (NSF) in a letter to its members about the claim from the SAS management.
Also, CEO Rickard Gustafson's announcement that SAS management will probably use the executive board to put even more of its operations from Scandinavia to low-cost countries, threatening negotiated agreements with the employees, as they experience it, pilots will see red.
- At the same time, our highest boss is saying that our last small employment protection (Rolle Distribution Agreement and Lease Agreement) is going to be eliminated, directly provoking, SAS's pilots write in the internal member letter ABC News has.
"If there is no social dumping, I do not know," explains chairman Christian Laulund in the Norwegian SAS Airways Association to ABC News about plans to put more out of business to be competitive.

In short, it is said that SAS has established a company in Ireland where wages are well below the Scandinavian level, and the conditions are worse than in the parent company SAS. Pilots and cabin crew are employed on time-limited contracts in an Irish agency, CAE Parc, from which SAIL buys services from.
In July, ABC News revealed that pilots in SAIL had sent a warning letter to the SAS management, warning that more pilots had terminated or been on their way due to poor conditions in a market where there is a screaming need for pilots internationally .
Predicting a loss of 130 million
CEO Rickard Gustafson admitted that the SAS crisis was due to "specific challenges" with the crew in SAIL and another subcontractor, the Irish-registered airline, City Jet. He also owed the delayed delivery of Airbus flights and airline lines.
The SAS management acknowledged that they had been overly ambitious in their planning of the summer - despite the fact that they could hardly walk around in countless host shifts. As a result, the employees in Scandinavia eventually received double pay for holiday and day off until 30 August - while SAS has to pay out millions in return for passengers who had been traveling due to canceled flights.
SAS itself estimates that the summer's crisis has cost them 130 million kroner. That number fires the pilots off.It is not unreasonable to assume that the annual result for 2018 will be nearly half a billion weaker due to the start of SAIL and problems with our wetlease operators, which should be a mindset for those responsible, the pilot association writes in the letter to the members.
- Did not contribute a fuss
Manager Christian Laulund believes SAS has not calculated all the startup difficulties SAIL has incurred - such as recruitment costs, pilots training to fly Airbus and loss of reputation.
"SAIL has not contributed a boost to higher revenues, and how over a hundred million in additional expenses in the third quarter will provide lower costs, appear as a riddle, writes the NSF board to its members.
- There are strong words?
- Yes. Someone must explain to me how this company may have contributed to lower costs and higher revenues when the phase is as it is, says Laulund.

[matt283]

So in summary what is the conclusion of this article? coz I can not see the point...:confused:

[BluSdUp]

matt283
Conclusion:
The Norwegian parliament is finally waking up and may investigate into WTF the aviation industry is up to!
Then pass new laws OR start to use the current ones to stop illegal practices.

Regards
Cpt B

[Easyheat]

But not only that, it is like cancer, working as inspiration for the Primera Baltic's etc.

Flight Personnel Union is also working hard not to let it settle in Denmark (check-in.dk):

Danish and Nordic unions are ready for sympathy conflict if the announced conflict with Primera Air Nordic is launched.The Flight Personnel Union (FPU) unions union announced on August 23 a conflict against Latvian Primera Air Nordic, a sister company to the Danish Primera Air Scandinavia.
According to the FPU, Primera Air Nordic, based in Riga, uses Eastern European cabin crew on the company's flights from Copenhagen Airport. Employees from Eastern Europe are allegedly employed by recruitment companies in Guernsey and Malta and operate on terms far from the Danish agreements.
According to the FPU, the cabin crew's salary is equal to half of the salary paid by a Danish cabin crew to an agreement and, in addition, there should be limited access to pay under sickness and no paid holiday. The FPU also claims that the employees of Primera Air Nordic will be driven by taxi from pick-up locations in Malmo and Lund to Copenhagen Airport, which is basically their base.
FPU: Primera Air Nordic rejects dialogue
FPU has attempted to reach an agreement with Primera Air Nordic, just as the trade union already has an agreement with Primera Air Scandinavia. However, according to the FPU, the Latvian company has refused to enter into a dialogue or negotiation of the terms, and therefore the trade union has announced conflict.
Now FPU receives support from transport workers throughout the Nordic region and the Danish trade unions HK and Dansk Metal, who are ready to enter into a sympathy conflict if the FPU's collective agreement against Primera Air Nordic ends in conflict. It writes FPU's own media Luftfart.nu.
"In a conflict situation, the FPU, like any other LO trade union, can request sympathy - and I can not imagine anything else than we are ready to provide," says Jan Villadsen, chairman of 3F Transport in Denmark and the Nordic Transport Workers' Union , to Aviation.nu.
HK and Dansk Metal are backing up
According to Luftfart.nu, the trade unions HK and Dansk Metal also back up a possible action.
René Knudsen, head of the HK Service Capital, which organizes, among other things, check-in staff at Copenhagen Airport, says:"If we are asked for sympathy conflict, we will sympathize within the legal framework. This means that passengers do not get handled tickets and can not be checked in, "says René Knudsen.
Labor law must take a position
Before that, however, the Labor Court must first decide on the legality of a conflict with Primera Air Nordic, as was the case in FPU's case against Ryanair in 2015. In that case, the Labor Court concluded that the FPU could legitimately initiate conflict with the Irish low-fare carrier, and subsequently Ryanair closed its bases in Copenhagen and Billund.
The date of the first and preliminary hearing of the Labor Court on the conflict notice against Primera Air Nordic is not yet determined, FPU states at CHECK-IN.dk.
Primera Air's communications department announced in August a brief comment on the FPU's conflict warning that Primera Air Nordic has no "scheduled departures from Denmark".

[Easyheat]

More about the social dumping in the danish medias (dr.dk).

Danish low-fare carrier is being sued in court to bypass the pilot agreement.
The Labor Court has to decide whether Primera Air has violated Danish labor law by manning flights with pilots on contract at a bureau in Guernsey.The former Primera Air Scandinavia pilot Michael Ingvardsen now requires half a million danish crowns in custody after having worked full-time for two years for the Danish-based airline.
In a case that was prepared today at the Labor Court, he argued with the trade union movement that the airline has broken his Danish agreement by hiring labor from a brokerage agency in Guernsey.
- I hope a judgment will put an effective stop to social dumping in the industry. At least here in Denmark. I'm sorry that I myself accepted these terms to begin with, "says Michael Ingvardsen.

Together with the FPU union, he has sent a complaint to the airline, who is asked to pay a bid for two years' payback, lack of retirement, holiday pay and sickness pay.
It is money that the company should have paid if Michael Ingvardsen had been employed directly in the Danish agreement, which Primera Air has entered into with the Flight Personnel Union, FPU.
Resident of Denmark - employed at Guernsey
Instead, he was employed from May 2015 to May 2017 on a contract with Flight Crew Solutions, one of several brokerage agencies on the British Channel Island, Guernsey. The agency provides pilots and cabin crew members with the airlines.
Thus, the pilots on the paper are self-employed or contractors who charge their expenses rather than a wage earner.
According to FPU, this type of employment covers more than half of Primera Air pilots in Denmark. And therefore the trade union estimates that the case may end up costing the airline over 30 million danish crowns.

We believe that Michael Ingvardsen is to be considered a regular employee. Not as a self-employed person in Guernsey. And if we win the case, Primera Air has many other pilots who are ready to do the same demands, says lawyer Jan Gloggengieser Gam.
The right of employment has also been asked to decide whether Michael Ingvardsen can be considered a temporary employee if he can not be recognized as an employee.
"If the court thinks that, then we have a law based on the EU directive, which says that temporary workers must have the same conditions, including pay as employees in the user company, says Jan Gloggengieser Gam.
Primera Air in defense: Rejects all claims
Through a response from the Danish Employers' Association sent to the Labor Court, Primera Air refuses to acknowledge Michael Ingvardsen and FPU's requirements.
Among other things, the airline agrees that, in its contract with Flight Crew Solutions, it has renounced the right to be regarded as a member of the company and that it is not a temporary employment relationship.

In addition, Primera Air writes that, according to a compilation of his working hours, Michael Ingvardsen did not flew for the Danish company in the Iceland-owned travel group for the most part.
Instead, the claim states that 63 percent of his work in the two years was performed for the subsidiary Primera Air Nordic, which is based in Latvia and is therefore not covered by the Danish agreement.
DR News has contacted Primera Air in order to have an interview on the matter. But in the company, one has not wanted to participate.
Researcher: FPU and Michael Ingvardsen have a good case
Assistant professor Christian Højer Schøler, researcher at the University of Southern Denmark, has seen the documents in the case and believes that FPU and Michael Ingvardsen have good chances of winning.
He calls the case for a further development of the Ryanair model, where Primera Air has hired the company on Guernsey to avoid being covered by the agreement in Denmark.

"There are a number of conditions in his employment, suggesting that he would be considered an employee," says Christian Højer Schøler.
He points first and foremost to the high number of flight hours Michael Ingvardsen spent two years at Primera Air.
And then it is against the claim that he should be self-employed, that he should comply with the company's instructions in all situations and not have to work for other companies.
According to Christian Højer Schøler, here is Michael Ingvardsen's duty to perform his work in the cockpit personally.
- The self-employed person may send another to perform the task because it is a contract with a result to be delivered while an employee will have to meet personally because it is a personal employment.

[Serenity]

So could this stop SASI from doing flights that start in Scandinavia and only do flights that start in London or Malaga?

[matt283]

SASI is currently operating for example stockholm-oslo and stockholm-copenhagen flights...

I remember when norwegian opened first Spanish base in Malaga they were doing the same, Spanish crew being send to scandinavia to operate flights from there...

I do believe sooner or later SASI will stop operating flights that start in Scandinavia, but they will still operate flights from LHR and AGP with those t&c...

In Norwegian it took 5 years to sign CLA for Spain, and now they have 7 bases in Spain...

[Flixn]

Late September pay.
It wasn’t made before the end of the month, currently October 1st and no September pay!!
not a good sign! ��

[matt283]

Late September pay (due technical reasons).
October 1st and still no September pay!
Not a good sign! ��



First of all I am not sure how it looks in England, but in Spain the employment contract seems completely illegal...

Second of all if I would not receive salary as per contract equals I would be unable to work until I receive salary...
So far there are no cancellations today...

Finally I would assume that the salary is late due to secretary working in famous agency running SAIL having weekend off :/

This mickey mouse company does not stop to surprise, how despite complete incompetence they are still running the airline ;/

[BluSdUp]

Jæklar!
Thats no good!
When was September pay supposed to be in , as per the contract?

[INKJET]

Talking to SAS LHR crew last night, not been paid not good

[Fly320bus]

Aeroflot is hiring A320/B737 Captains. Let me know if you need help.

[FlightDetent]

Why not start a separate thread, Fly320bus, and share the knowledge on what the conditions are? Let's see how serious you are .. , hm?

This link does not show much of attention from the recruiters: Aeroflot pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Aeroflot).

[Fly320bus]

Why not start a separate thread, Fly320bus, and share the knowledge on what the conditions are? Let's see how serious you are .. , hm?

This link does not show much of attention from the recruiters: Aeroflot pilot jobs news for airline pilots and aviation schools (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/jobs/Aeroflot).


not interested in big threads,
just wanted to help as I recently joined. And I know how it feels to go through this situation. That's all. Best of luck.

[FlightDetent]

I may have misworded my request, it is a genuine one. Congrats for your leap of faith, by the way!

The Aeroflot's conditions are not the worst in EU. From what I learned, definitely better than Primera's (unless you had lived at one of their bases and/or could reach for the high level PIC hrs pay).

Though I assumed you were connected to AFL recruitment - sorry for that - we're still interested to know. Even if AFL were the low edge, sharing their T&C helps. It puts a mirror in front of the "western" 3rd tiers and pushes up the whole pyramid.

This is a SAIL thread, let's not hijack it. Hence the request for a separate one. It is time to get fat, the winter's coming.

[matsemann]

If there is moneny trouble, SAS main will of course pay the salaries, after all, SAIL is needed before the negotiations with SAS main next spring.....

[FlightDetent]

That was my main worry since the beginning. Even if successful, well organized and set-up for a healthy growth, would not be SAIL sacrificed during the big SAS negotiations?
Is the ethics behind them really to start an off-shoot with a low-cost base, or are the SAS bosses just cultivating a bargaining chip to be burned later?

[172_driver]

That was my main worry since the beginning. Even if successful, well organized and set-up for a healthy growth, would not be SAIL sacrificed during the big SAS negotiations?
Is the ethics behind them really to start an off-shoot with a low-cost base, or are the SAS bosses just cultivating a bargaining chip to be burned later?

While no mainline pilot is positive to SAIL I think it's the big bosses you should be afraid of. The unions have some power to negotiate their local T&C but can in no way influence top management (or the board) in which direction they should take this ship. SAIL isn't the first provocative action taken by the company when up for negotiation. The latest being forced part time for all new upgrades.

I don't claim to know anything. However, after this summer's fiasco with SAIL and CityJet and the management's surprising transparency about it I can't believe it turned out to be the money saver they were hoping for.

[Nr Low]

RE late Sept pay; same thing happened to us at Primera Air this weekend just gone. Lots of talk from the airline and the agency about 'slow banks' and 'no admin staff over the weekend' etc. 24 hours later the airline went into administration (ie.last night). Some of us were paid. Others are still waiting. We were also employed by agency (ASTA, under Mountain High) who sound every bit as incompetent and chaotic as CAE judging by some of these posts. I was considering a move to SAIL as LHR would suit me as would the 5/4. But i'm wondering if things are any better? Or if they are destined for the same fate? Lack of pilots, cabin crew, trainers and Ts & Cs not good enough to retain the ones they had were what sunk Primera. Although the airline management are trying to make it sound like it was the late delivery of their A321 NEOs. Primera were too in the midst of recruitment (albeit too late) when they went under yesterday (with an OCC course literally under way with 9 more pilots and another 2 course to follow next month). So I guess the most immediate and searching question is...have you guys been paid yet??

[ZAV]

Heard that some of the guys have been hit with Irish taxes is that right?

[TOGAFLYER]

Morning all, any info on the SAS Ireland interview ?

I understand the SAS conditions will be increasing.

[matt283]

SAIL seems to have 2 airframes on order again, If the want to crew them, logical way would be to increase t&c, but still no confirmed news about that...

[semmern]

September pay in yet?

[matt283]

From what I heard the guys received already september pay...

Another thing seems like SAIL was lucky at the beginning to recruit pilots from Monarch and now might be the same case with Primera guys...

[Easyheat]

I believe you are right there Matt.

If SAIL is the last option, then why not, until something better pops up?

[Flixn]

With reference to the Air Tanker question posted, they’d be crazy to join in, very different to what they are used to.
Multi sector, max duty days followed by minimum rest, all backed up by CAE who can’t organise a p*ss up in a brewery, who don’t care about the staff and have the line “in Ryanair......”
see where this is going?

[Easyheat]

Well Flixn....

I don't think (or hope) they will be too surprised. Everybody in AirTanker knows how well it can bee in aviation, and how bad it is in low cost. Or "been there done that" goes for all of us, I guess.

Still hope for the guys that it will be a quick visit, but not more than that....

[KongFlyer]

Is SAS mainline hiring for other bases than ARN soon?

[dcoded]

They are already hiring for OSL alongside ARN, so I was told when I attended the interview.
For CPH there will probably be no recruiting this round.

[KongFlyer]

They are already hiring for OSL alongside ARN, so I was told when I attended the interview.
For CPH there will probably be no recruiting this round.

Thanks! Do you know how long base transfers are? If one were to get ARN and wanted CPH would they get priority over new hires?

[172_driver]

Thanks! Do you know how long base transfers are? If one were to get ARN and wanted CPH would they get priority over new hires?

There is no clear-cut procedure for that. Expect to be based where you're initially hired. When upgrading you can apply for a captain position at another base. There have been one-off base transfers when slots have been available.

[KongFlyer]

There is no clear-cut procedure for that. Expect to be based where you're initially hired. When upgrading you can apply for a captain position at another base. There have been one-off base transfers when slots have been available.
Thanks for letting me know, I'll wait then. :)

[172_driver]

Thanks for letting me know, I'll wait then. :)

Wise choice if you really want CPH.