SAS Ireland SAIL

[172_driver]

SAS complements its production with a new air operator certificate (AOC) and bases outside Scandinavia | SAS (http://www.sasgroup.net/en/sas-complements-its-production-with-a-new-air-operator-certificate-aoc-and-bases-outside-scandinavia/)

The Scandinavian pilots are too expensive, time to open a 'new' SAS outside of Scandinavia. Will be interesting (probably sad..) to see what terms new hires will be on. A unionized that airline that last year showed that some power still lies with its employees. They will now be completely undermined.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Any idea where and what are they going to fly?

[172_driver]

The press release mentions bases in London this year and Spain next.

[BluSdUp]

This move by our proud Scandinavian Flag carrier makes me sick.
When are we going to stop this madness ?
IFALPA and the national unions are not heard from. Have they all given up?

That little island with no respect for ANY worker , shall now take over as The European powerhouse of aviation. What a joke.

And NO the SAS pilots are not expensive anymore.( stocks went up 5%, dressing the bride for Lufthansa Group? They already operate 30% cheaper than LH)
It is the new A320neo that will most likely be based in Heathrow and Malaga on local terms.

I think history will show that this is the way to go for more accidents.
Its all about money now, no more stable predictable life for pilots.

I should have taken those 2.5 mill swiss francs inbound the alps and just kept on going,,,

:mad:, to late now.
Power to the People
Ehh PILOTS
Rant over

[Avenger]

Cost advantage
The Irish unit will hire locally, while its cost advantage is more likely to come from lower social security expenses and taxes rather than from reduced wages, spokesman Fredrik Henriksson said.
Services will begin with “a handful of aircraft” with the same livery and service offering as SAS’s existing fleet.
It's all the open prisons that cost the money!

[captplaystation]

Nothing to add

https://www.facebook.com/truthful.irish/videos/1182049065174761/

SAS obviously decided "if you can't beat them , join them" . . . . . . .

Or, on a lighter note

https://www.facebook.com/WhispersNews/posts/10158324823600195

[RAT 5]

How did Ireland morph into Liberia?

[Denti]

Well, with an announcement like that i wonder why SAS airplanes are still flying today? Take a leaf outta TUIflys book and simply stop flying... Apparently it does help sometimes.

[172_driver]

IFALPA and the national unions are not heard from. Have they all given up?


What can they do when pilots are hired by a company set up outside of Scandinavia? I am sure they're up to their ears trying to figure this out themselves.

ANNEX IV

COMMERCIAL AIR TRANSPORT OPERATIONS [PART-CAT]

SUBPART A

GENERAL REQUIREMENTS

CAT.GEN.100 Competent authority
The competent authority shall be the authority designated by the Member State in which the operator has its principal place of business

How on earth are the office clerks at the IAA supposed to know what's going on in the operation they're providing oversight for?

[BluSdUp]

Rat 5
Spot on You are, how did the most incompetent and cheapest land in old EU become the most populare place to go for an AOC.?
The answer is : Cheapest,

The background : We the Pilots let them.
Bjørn Kjos in Norwegian has longtime stated he wants it like the shipping industry.
Voila : Liberia.

Scary

[CarbHeatIn]

And yet Aer Lingus guys enjoy decent Ts&Cs... Why do you think that is?

[Direct Bondi]

Is it because Aer Lingus pilots are represented by a trade union DIRECTLY to the airline?

https://ialpa.net/

Norwegian’s LGW based pilots pay union dues to BALPA for representation to staffing agency, Orient Ship Management, who rents them to a Norwegian airline.

[BluSdUp]

CarbHeatIn

Good news then , according your logic: Full represantation and the good old system to all that fly under a Irish AOC.
Lovely.
Reality check.
EIN was to be taken over by RYR but some court decided that would be leading to a RYR monopoly in Irland.

RYR keeps it as its pet for possible long haul competency and route sharing.
It has 47 aircraft, RYR has 370 NOR has 200 plus.
Lets compare it with Braathes SAFE in Norway in the old days.
When they almost went bankrupt SAS bought them and found out they operated 30% cheaper.
Expensive pilots does not equal expensive Company.
Inflated , overpaied and incompetent management does.
Bless Airlingus, but that is their own, You know. And the only ones on the Island that knows anything about flying an aircraft.

[Avenger]

Bondi, the conditions that AER Pilots enjoy are formed from Irish Law principles:

"Collective bargaining is governed not by legislation but by a series of nationally-negotiated pay agreements based upon a social partnership model. Government, representatives of the trade union movement, of employers' organisations and more recently also drawn from the non-governmental 'social pillar' (ie voluntary groups) come together to negotiate a national agreement which fixes wage increases and other payments generally."

Bearing in mind this was a State Owned airline that was floated, the hereditary rights etc remain under Irish and EU laws as Eire is part of the " eurozone"

Under the Constitution, the State guarantees the right of the citizens to form associations and unions. (art. 40.6.(iii))." therefore there is no " recognition" issues as in NAS. Secondly, Unions in Eire are affiliated .. Unfortunately these T+Cs were so good the massive debt meant that the Government had little choice but to sell the airline to IAG! Bit like Olympic Airlines.. jobs for the boys..

Its a good thing on the one hand, but leads to protectionism on the other, i.e if you're not Irish, the chances of a job at Lingus are so slim you could slide under a door!

SAS will reduce it's cost base, not wages..

[repulo]

Hey Denti, glad to see you got the massage that it was all about TUI and not AB!
Anyhow, back to topic. As long as there is no level playing field with harmonised labour law and company taxation this whole project open skies Europe will kill every descent airline and transfer the jobs to the lowest level..

[recall_checked]

And some people wonder why I think Brexit was a good thing....I was hoping the EU would die.

Although the UK will probably remain part of open skies.

[RAT 5]

The competent authority shall be the authority designated by the Member State in which the operator has its principal place of business

Slight drift; but what is the definition of "principal place of business?" It is established that RYR's largest base for flights etc. is STN, but it's HQ is DUB. So its largest source of income is in UK, but its administration centre is IRE.
Then you add in all the other overseas bases. Its business is speedily widely. I would have thought the registration of the a/c would have some input, but then again, I flew for an Italian airline with an Italian AOC but EI reg a/c. However, that was before EASA, even JAR.


Under the Constitution (IRE), the State guarantees the right of the citizens to form associations and unions. (art. 40.6.(iii))." therefore there is no " recognition issues. Secondly, Unions in Eire are affiliated."

If this is correct, as quoted by Bondi, how does RYR succeed in resisting a union in RYR. They claim not to prohibit a union, but to recognise it for negotiating purposes. Bondi suggests there are rights enshrined in the Irish constitution. I miss be missing something, or there are many 'blind eyes' in IRE.

[172_driver]

Slight drift; but what is the definition of "principal place of business?"

EASA-OPS goes on to define that:

‘principal place of business’ means the head office or registered office of the organisation within which the principal financial functions and operational control of the activities referred to in this Regulation are exercised

So I can only presume that 'new' SAS will have some administration set up in Ireland.

[cefey]

It´s sad. SAS is the last company I would expect it from.
On the other side, it´s entirely understandable. They must compete on equal term, in order to have a chance to beat other companies.

EU/EASA must make some changes. Only then we can hope for course reversal in TCs.

[Direct Bondi]

So I can only presume that 'new' SAS will have some administration set up in Ireland
Another broom cupboard exploited.

Will the SAS crews have Irish employment contracts like NAI? – allegedly:

http://www.thejournal.ie/norwegian-air-usa-europe-2948823-Aug2016/

“since NAI is based in Ireland, it is subject to Irish labor laws”

[RAT 5]

EU/EASA must make some changes. Only then we can hope for course reversal in TCs.

Why would the trough slurping EU bureaucrats do such a thing? The airlines would claim the price of tickets would have to rise and the peasants of the EU would revolt having to pay increased fair-trade prices for their tickets. Let slavery, in many industries, continue so that the peasants can eat cake instead of bread and vote for their grinning faced apparently benevolent MP's. :hmm:

[Avenger]

How Europe's three biggest budget airlines plan to take over the world (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/norwegian-plans-to-join-forces-with-ryanair-easyJet-low-cost-alliance/?WT.mc_id=tmg_share_em)

[Iver]

The press release mentions bases in London this year and Spain next.

Which London airport for an operational base?

[INKJET]

Oh dear Bondi you don't give up do you!!

Remember pilots who fly for NAI don't work for NAI they are employed by OSM, must be hard for you, you know, always being on the wrong side of history, it is social taxes in Scandinavia that kill pilot jobs based there, Finnair will likely follow, the Finish Government will need to increase the tax take if it intends to fully roll out its trail of giving everyone a basic living wage for sitting at home on their computers all day, perhaps you should apply, after all you may have made some contributions to the Finish tax system before you were turfed out of Vannta

[Direct Bondi]

Remember also;

Via his novel and complex staffing agency labor model, Kjos does not offer airline employment, he offers airline “unemployment”.

Dreams of a career in aviation are turned into nightmares of service industry insecurity.

SAS employs their pilots directly, all have labor rights and labor principles directly with SAS.

While on the subject of tax, I hear Norwegian’s pilots may soon be paying tax on their freebie jumpseat tickets out of LGW.

[JaxofMarlow]

[it is social taxes in Scandinavia that kill pilot jobs based there][/QUOTE]

Not sure I understand this. Why more so pilots than doctors nurses or office workers ?

[captplaystation]

In the same way as I detected a lack of French/UK origin below deck workers on cross-channel ferries over the last 3 decades, airline pax are not all blind. . . lack of PA's in the local lingo etc. . . pay for SAS , get flyygawdknowswhat airlines. Sad that aviation is going that way . . . anyone with some authority to stop it is either not interested, or is in someone else's pocket, for sure it is not merely ignorance of the situation.

[172_driver]

Which London airport for an operational base?

No idea, they've got slots at LHR but if they can be used for something useful I don't know

[WindSheer]

It's called culture change......,.

[172_driver]

Some, like the consumers, think it's for the better. Pilots, who you see on here mostly, are the once adversely affected by said change.

[Direct Bondi]

There are reasons Scandinavia airline CEO’s seek to cut labor costs.

http://e24.no/boers-og-finans/sas/sas-sjefen-fikk-loennsoekning-paa-to-millioner/23913896

“SAS boss got pay rise of two million”

Norwegian’s CEO avoids answering questions on his net worth and states; “A lot of pilots earn more than me” (time 4.39).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdWfEozTOQg&t=331s

The race to the bottom continues. Fat cats and fat rats get fatter.

[mask14]

Where they going to get their type rated pilots from?

[Direct Bondi]

SAS confirms its entry in the race to the bottom by adopting the ‘airline unemployment’ model;

“SAS Ireland boss Michael Wångdahl holding discussions with a number of staffing companies” – Dagbladet 17/3 - Link:

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/fortsatt-i-det-bla-hvor-sas-irlands--bemanning-skal-ansettes/67403113

Union members should demand their representatives act on current legislation which states;

“The entity controlling the working life and supplying the equipment to perform the job shall be deemed the employer” - as accepted by the law courts of Europe and detailed in this International Labor Office guide:

http://www.ilo.org/wcmsp5/groups/public/@ed_dialogue/@dialogue/documents/publication/wcms_209280.pdf

Alternatively, continue to pay union dues and fill union coffers for representation to staffing agencies, rather than direct representation to the airline with associated labor rights and labor principles.

[breakdip]

Where they going to get their type rated pilots from?

SAS will wet lease the 320NEO's to SAS Ireland. Ireland based staff is ground staff only.

Source: SAS outlines new Irish unit plans due in mid-4Q17 - ch-aviation.com (http://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news/53802-sas-outlines-new-irish-unit-plans-due-in-mid-4q17)

[HippoDK]

breakdip i think you have it the wrong way around...

SAS will wetlease from SAS Ireland

[breakdip]

SAS will wetlease from SAS Ireland

Herregud, you are completely right...

SAS Irish subsidiary to begin flights in November (http://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/sas-irish-subsidiary-to-begin-flights-in-november-1.2992398)
SAS will own the Irish airline, which will be a separate entity to its parent but will carry its brand. It will fly the Spanish and British routes on a “wet lease” basis, that is, providing the aircraft and crew.

About 40 staff will be based here initially. The airline will begin hiring pilots and crew later in the year.

Do not know which words to choose: Scandalous or Smart?

[Alpha Golf Mike]

Anobod knows what's going on now? Been very quiet in a long while.

[172_driver]

Internally too, but I believe the aim is to have the London base up and running by the end of the year. Union negotiations are currently ongoing.

[matt283]

Which base in Spain is considered? Is it Malaga?

[flyhigh788]

Anyone knows sth about the conditions?

[matt283]

Do I get it right:

60h included in the basic and sector payment only payed when working over 60h

and extra allowance when working over 15 days?

[dirk85]

These look more like FO conditions honestly.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

They're pretty much similar to any other in Europe. 6-7000€ after tax seems to be the norm these days...

[Thepirate]

Your right €6-7k net is the norm left seat these days...... except the figures offered by SAS/uk/es are gross.....disappointing. This pay is lower than standard senior fo

[matt283]

Those are conditions for uk. Anybody has details for Spain? I am sure they will get some weird exchange rate pounds to euros ;(

[R T Jones]

£62k basic salary for a captain? That is not market rate, an UK based easyjet SFO basic salary is only just short of that....

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

I'd genuinely love to see those high-paying European DEC job offers.

Every time I get T&C's and crunch the numbers, I come up with 9-10k EUR gross, 6-7k EUR net. That includes perdiems, sector pay, hourly pay, overnight etc.

Unless you have a legacy contract somewhere, that's what you get these days...

[dirk85]

The problem is that you won't see 7k net with that gross salary.

[matt283]

New SAS Ireland airline to hire 40 at its Dublin HQ - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/new-sas-ireland-airline-to-hire-40-at-its-dublin-hq-35491221.html)

¨By basing SAS Ireland pilots and cabin crew outside Scandinavia, the new division's labour costs will be between 35pc and 40pc cheaper that those of the parent.¨

¨Its staff will be paid similar wages to their Scandinavian counterparts, but social charges and taxes will be lower.¨

Yeah, right... ;(

[BluSdUp]

I did admire SAS but those days are over.

[172_driver]

They don't care if pilots admire them or not anymore, they don't care about 'getting the best' or "we're Scandinavians" or "Nordic by-choice" or whatever their latest slogan is. They just want the investors to admire them to finance their great expansion of long-haul airplanes and A320neo's... I am just sceptical it's gonna work out better this time :{

[Callone]

This is a legacy carrier who are biting the bullet and starting a low co operation.
Obviously the terms n conditions will suck otherwise why would they bother starting up a loco ? They could simply use their own guys.

They are asking for very little experience. 500 hrs on type command ... pretty low , so low pay . Thats it .

Plenty of EK Guys applying but no chance , its A320 rating guys ;)

http://www.emirates-executive.com/

[Andrew7]

Money is low sorry , plus after UK taxes......plus working for an Agency and not a good one at that ........... not even a direct contract. Stay where you are at Emirates guys or go to EZ and get a direct contract and Seniority.

[Alpha Golf Mike]

Does anyone know conditions for FO, and how to apply? Been looking everywhere but not able to find the smallest info.

[matt283]

I would recommend you to send an e-mail to the agency:

https://caeparcaviation.com/contact/

[Alpha Golf Mike]

Thank you!

[semmern]

FO basic pay: £3300/month. I think it was about £71/h over 60h/month.
Capt: £5500/month. Can't remember hourly pay over 60h, but it was proportional, so about £110-120/h.

[dirk85]

How exactly did you come up with 7000 EUR gross? Not from the figures quoted above obviously.

[dirk85]

I see. Then the above information is incorrect.

Not that I expect them to fly 960 hpurs per year, but still.

[Luibar]

I think it is risky to assume that you will be flying 80 hours a month, even considering 1 month off for vacation. As stated somewhere above, if they introduce a Ryanair style roster of 5/4 there is a chance that not every month you work 15 days so no €1000 on that month.

[semmern]

There will be 5/4 for all. £5500 a month as a CAPTAIN, and some here think that's a good salary? No wonder this profession is in its present state!

[Private jet]

Where did all this begin you ask? Reagan & Thatcher. The seeds of the 80's " free market revolution" are now bearing their fruit...

[Andrew7]

Agree with Semmern and Dirk . Crap money . Go to EZ . Or if based in Spain Eurowings ...but to offer a Captain what they are offering is an insult.. However I blame the Agency they have obviously lowballed for the business.. with commissions paid to agencies not sure why these Airlines use them and just pay a decent salary instead. Although in all fairness they are not all bad. PARC used to be ok in the old days but no longer.. in fact I wouldnt work for them.

[172_driver]

However I blame the Agency they have obviously lowballed for the business.. with commissions paid to agencies not sure why these Airlines use them and just pay a decent salary instead.

Same reason as Norwegian uses agency workers for permanent positions?? No union to fight, no employer responsibilities, if they become too expensive - give them back to the agency etc. etc. etc.

The money you make isn't necessarily worse than mainline SAS. But you do miss out on many of the benefits, such as the social benefits of living in a country with high employer social security charges. You have no health insurance (other than at work), no pension contributions, no loss of license insurance, no idea about ID travel but I'd say unlikely? Sick pay I am not sure about either. Covered by the law of England perhaps? or Ireland? or wherever country you're hired in.

[CaptainProp]

If you live in UK then UK contract with social security there. If you live anywhere else you'll get Irish contract with social security through Ireland. In other words, this should give you the right to state pensions in these two countries. Not a lot but it's at least something.

Possible additional tax and social security payments having to be made in your home country depending on where you live? As many already pointed out, pay is very low and I can't see many people jumping on this train.

[semmern]

pay is very low and I can't see many people jumping on this train.

I'm hopping they will struggle to find captains willing to work for the pittance they're offering, especially since the grass is extremely much greener at EZ, BA or even LH these days, but there will probably be a rush of New FOs with fresh ratings wanting to join "SAS."

[Arewerunning]

At the selection they say to everyone that they will be based in MALAGA. Reality is that Malaga is not going to be open until April next year. By that time, only 20/30 pilots will have a slot there, everybody else, regardless of what they say, will be stuck in UK

[matt283]

To be honest for me it looks again like the same mess when norwegian opened first base in Spain - Malaga couple of years ago...

[Perser_dk]

Anyone that has heard anything after the interview sessions? Offered any starting dates?

[ManaAdaSystem]

Beware, this new company will be used as a tool to break the unions in mainline SAS. You will not just fly to and from your base, but you will also operate mainline routes. More so as this company gets bigger.
Do you want to be a part of this?

[matt283]

This is exactly the same what norwegian was doing at the beginning when opened a base in Malaga:ugh:

[HippoDK]

Before we all get to exited how well do you think an Irish AOC will operate in the U.K. post brexit? I would think twice before signing up on a LHR base. I can assure you that no thought has been given in that direction. SAS has NEVER had a successful company outside core SAS - not meaning that core is much better....

EU bases (there will be more than Malaga) will operate without those issues off course and I'm sure applicants will be plentiful - they can always hire those Easy didn't want.

[MD80rookie]

Does anyone know of anobody who have applied with an honest intention of joining and be based LHR?

[BluSdUp]

I read somewhere that SAS union was on the way to UK to talk with BALPA with regards to new ops.
Could get interesting.

[semmern]

Latest rumours say 6-month delay due to recruitment issues. Let's hope they are true.

[Luibar]

Maybe they realize how weak the T&C are... :p

[linmar]

I've heard the same. Don't quit to start with SAS in LHR.

Don't expect the conditions to improve though. Upper management has promised the board and CEO that pilots in the UK are to be a lot cheaper than in Scandinavia despite the current crap conditions on offer up in the North. Wouldn't be very impressive to come running back tails between legs having to admit pilots won't join a company offering substandard terms and conditions.

[EFISchap]

Are they looking for Non Type Rated Captains of First Officers yet?

[Andrew7]

So what is the latest? hear they cannot find pilots......... . That's what you get when you try and cut costs. Strange that they always go for the crews salaries first

[semmern]

Out of interest, where did you hear that, if you didn't read it here? "Proper" SAS pilots want to know :) PM me the answer if you don't want it public.

[semmern]

Has anyone seen any EI-registered A320s in SAS colours anywhere in the UK lately?

[Andrew7]

Semmern You stated there was a delay and heard it from a colleague

[MD man]

SAS will probably move CRJ-900 operation under Irish OAC , since CITYJET has proven to be totally an flying club with slave deals to employees..

[MD80rookie]

No AOC yet, according to IAA webpage.

[CaptainProp]

SAS will probably move CRJ-900 operation under Irish OAC , since CITYJET has proven to be totally an flying club with slave deals to employees..

And SAS is doing much better with their Irish AOC terms and conditions?

[EGKK.]

Any Rosters out yet? I'd like to see the level of work out of LHR.

Is it just another Max duty/Min rest approach Or is it the holy grail of jobs in the UK.

[november.sierra]

This whole operation doesn't seem to have been given any proper thought, it seems more like 'well Norwegian have an Irish AOC, so we should do the same'... I struggle to see how there are any cost savings to be had operating from LHR, one of the most expensive and slot constrained airports in Europe.

As was rightly pointed out, the current deals on offer for SAS new hires, both pilots and cabin crew, are a far cry of what was once on offer, and are substantially below what is on offer at Norwegian, and we're talking SAS Scandinavia here. People based in LHR will not work for peanuts either, let alone leave secure employment elsewhere An organisation like SAS seems to be simply incapable of becoming a profitable entity in its current structure, and is being very naive thinking that an Irish AOC and basing staff outside of Scandinavia will be a solution to all their woes.

For those that don't remember, there are several such failed ventures in the history of SAS, whether we're now talking about Snowflake, for those that remember: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowflake_(airline) or Blue1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue1 or Spanair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair , and I wouldn't be surprised if SAS Ireland might meet a similar fate once the beancounters realise that there are no savings to be had, drawing the same conclusion as with the other projects.

I would tread carefully...

[linmar]

I would tread carefully...

Fully agree. The Scandinavian Ireland venture is nothing more than something cooked up by senior management to hold against the pilots in Scandinavia. "Reduce your cost... or else"

The pilot cost in SAS is less than 6% of the total cost base. Given the number of pilots that will retire over the next 10 years, being replaced by new hires at a lower cost, that number will decrease substantially without any influence from SAIL. The current T&C's in SAS is well below most competitors, Ryanair being the exemption, and the only reason SAS are able to attract experienced pilots is the permanent employment with the airline, a seniority system in place with long haul possibilities and union representation.

The beancounters seem to think that the same pilots applying to SAS would also jump at any chance to join SAIL, regardless if all other carriers in the UK offer a better package.

[Novaxeth]

Everything is very quiet around this, and CAE/PARC are constantly updating their recruiting ads. Is everything in place and will SAIL be good to go in November?

[semmern]

Latest is one plane in December.

[Spit15]

Last i heard 2 days ago was a 6 week delay in first acft delivery

[Spit15]

Can anyone confirm whether they have actually got the AOC? Or still a work in progress?

[MD80rookie]

According to IAA website no AOC yet.

They advertised for a NP Crew Training just a few days ago.

Quite sure that this will be another of SAS failed projects...

[A319]

Aircraft lined up? They have yet to receive the 1st. The last NEO is going to SAS mainline and only then will the SAIL aircraft start to arrive...

[Spit15]

Having planes in livery means nothing. Jetstar HK had 9 brand new A320's sitting on the ramp in TLS all ready to go... but none ever flew for them. No AOC.

[Spit15]

The company folded without ever operating a single flight.

[matt283]

Cabin crew having trainings in november, no a/c registered in Ireland for sas yet, seems like at least a monthly delay in start up of the new operation...

[semmern]

One plane in December now also confirmed...again. We'll see...

[semmern]

Start-up now postponed indefinitely.

[nrn]

Source please?

[The Mixmaster]

Legal to advertise for staff for a subsidiary with no AOC in place?

[semmern]

Source please?

SAS udsætter opstart af Heathrow-base - CHECK-IN.dk (http://www.check-in.dk/sas-udsaetter-opstart-heathrow-base/)

[MD80rookie]

Below is a list with positions, advertised by CAE/Parc, for SAS Ireland Ltd (SAIL):

Senior Training Support Coordinator
Scandinavian Language speaking experienced Cabin Crew
Experienced Cabin Crew
Experienced Senior Cabin Crew
A320 Captains
A320 First Officers
A320 TRE/TRI
Manager Crew Training (Nominated Postholder)
Flight Operations Controller
Operations Compliance Auditor

Quite many positions still open for a company that was planned to start ops as of winter timetable end of october? Yes... :D

Internally, delayed delivery from Airbus is to blame.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Good opportunity for ex Monarch Staff

[HippoDK]

Opportunity yes - good no. Have you seen the T & C's ?

We are talking a (small) step up from small planet p2fly.

[tubby linton]

I saw a recruitment event for cabincrew scheduled for tomorrow at Heathrow.

[JetpoweredMigrantWkr]

Welcome to the neighborhood!
We all have AOCs in Ireland!

[Fuel Crossfeed]

Opportunity yes - good no. Have you seen the T & C's ?

We are talking a (small) step up from small planet p2fly.

Still better than no job as ex Monarch employees with mortgages, bills to pay and family mouths to feed will no doubt be thinking.

[premiere]

Well......this ex Monarch crew just told them where to stick their T & Cs !

[semmern]

Good on you!

Sincerely,
All mainline SAS pilots!

[FlightDetent]

Is it not just a scarecrow? I mean to force SAS group pilots to "open their minds"? It doesn not sound a viable plan to launch from LHR at winter's onset. Plus, the financial condtions alone seem to preclude any existence of a dedicated, well performing and loyal pilot pool.

[semmern]

In that case, it is a bloated, expensive scarecrow.

[flyer4life]

Well......this ex Monarch crew just told them where to stick their T & Cs !

Can someone please detail the package on offer for line captains? I'd like to confirm my general despondency with the industry 😖

[matt283]

can't find pdf with conditions on my laptop, but ask CAE Parc Aviation, they will send you that file ;)


Another question - anybody actually know when they will start operations??

[Thad Jarvis]

I recall line Capt as around £6500 per month. No pension. Can probably make more driving a Uber.. better tax breaks anyway.

[ATIS]

Didn't Norwegian start in the U.K. with abysmal T & Cs. They now have a pension and LOL.

With pilot and cabin crew union agreements signed I would hope once things have settled down, improvements could hopefully be negotiated. Good luck all.

[Spit15]

If it becomes a success story, things will clearly have to change w.r.t T's & C's as people will vote with their feet for better paying jobs; but in the mean time it will suit a fair few who are, through bad luck and circumstance, currently unemployed. Joining is optional, but my guess is that remaining will be conditional, for those who are joining to bridge a gap. There are lots of better options around... if geography is not a factor; and as we all know in this industry, it is far better to apply for a new role from a position of strength (i.e presently employed).

[CSman]

Reminds me when I became a Klingon, we Cambrian guys had that title for many years in Ba,the only difference being that we were on the same salaries as the main line guys, who knows what will happen in the future depends how many walk after two years ,also became one of the few.

[tubby linton]

Parc are quoting £8,378 a month all in. They have to provide a pension as it is UK based but it is only the state minimum level of contribution.

[flyer4life]

So not great indeed, around 15% less than a UK orange base without considering pension, LOL, sick pay. I guess we're talking 25% less if you fund all the extra benefits yourself. 5/4 roster should be good though.

SAS will get away with it for now due to the unfortunate demise of Monarch. Good luck to those joining for improving the package over time.

[MD80rookie]

From the inside;
no problems finding first officers but qualified captains is another story...

[tubby linton]

Spoke to a rival recruitment agency based in the emerald isle who took great glee in describing the state SAIL are in due to the poor contract and and the mess the rival agency were making of the recruitment process.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Basic pay for a captain is about 60,000 pounds.

[ATIS]

Just under £69K

Add flight pay, nightstop pay and overtime rate, after 60hrs, on top.

I'm pretty sure ex Monarch Luton and Gatwick pilots would consider it, especially senior boys who are already collecting a pension. 5 on 4 off probably being the draw factor.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

The contract I have says 62,640 pounds basic pay. To add overtime in a calculation is misleading to put it mildly.

I sincerely doubt that the pay will increase, since the whole point of setting up the LHR base is to have lower costs than in Scandinavia. The mainline pay is already way below other European legacy carriers.

[Thad Jarvis]

I'm sure plenty of Monarch guys have applied. Whether any of them turn up is another matter. They are all (quite rightly) applying for everything out there. There are 70 jobs in VS for them and dozens of command positions in Easyjet and Titan. The year 1 VS package is well above SAS command money. The Wow package beats this and it's still way below Easyjet. Never mind 54..do a year in Easyjet and go part-time. You'd still be quids in and with more time off.

[tubby linton]

Thad, being allowed to go part time at LGW with Orange is a pipe dream. I had a mate who went in 2014 and despite being told he could go part time he never got it. He was so fed up with it that he retired.

[HippoDK]

You have to add 10-12 overnights - if that's your fancy then fine... You'll also be going thru scandi land flying scandi routes - I don't think you'll be welcomed.

Still no AOC in the tax paradise - wonder if recruiting managers is troublesome?

Luckily Airbus is having problems delivering neo's (not) - this really would be sad if it's your last choice/chance considering brand value. But looking at the other "wetleases" SAS hires I guess it's not that important any more.

[ATIS]

Really Annoyed, sorry my post wasn't clear. That £69K was basic.

Quite possibly like WOW, basic depends on your experience

[5453]

Tubby,
Possibly correct in 2014. Not true now
Loads of people are going part time at LGW. All the people I have spoken to say you need to plan a year to get the part time to kick in, but you will get it under flexible working, probably a very suitable pattern.

[MD man]

This Irish AOC is just part of SAS long term management plan to try to concentrate to minimize costs without paying any considerations to safety and some other key values in aviation which we pilots take granted. Good examples can be found very near, sadly! After acquiring this ACMI partner _Cityjet__, it has been a total ghostride for employees , not to mention poor pilots!

At the moment Finnish NTSB is investigating a latest cityjet mishap which happened in EFTU. It is categorized as very Serious aviation safety incident which endangered 92 pax lives + crew of 4 .
And this was not the first of a kind fo cityjet alias SAS

[AIAA]

75% Capt easyJet, full time Capt SAIL, year 1 full time Virgin FO: all about the same pay if you factor in pension, allowances etc etc.

[Lammet]

Mainline SAS pilots don't like SAIL. At the same time we realise cost has to come down. Pay in Scandinavia is not high, but cost to the company is due to high taxation.
Therefore it is unlikely that pay & benefits will increase near term in SAIL. The rotation of 5/4 is probably a "must" in order to attrackt crew. In Scandinavia the 5/4 rotation is subject to heated discussions every bargaining session at SAS as it takes away scheduling flexibility in a network with large variations in production.
As I understand it, SAIL will have a flater production. Therefore the scheduling flexibility is not that important.

[Klimax]

As with basically all other bright SAS ideas, this one will not last long. Anybody considering joining should have a good look at past, and current, SAS strategies and plans. Please do have an exit plan if for some bizare reason you go DOWN this route.

[Spit15]

Klimax... I guess coming from UTOPIA... as you appear to be, the necessity to find a job which pays bills and keeps food on the kids plates and clothes on their backs, may to you seem a BIZARRE reason to "go DOWN" this route... however some of us live in more earthly dominions where needs have to be met, however unpalatable the methods may appear to those in a more fortunate position.

[intercooler]

I think Klimax is trying to say that it's not a very good idea to adapt your entire life to a job with SAIL (moving your family, turning down other job opportunities etc.) It's a job, not a career... and may not last for that long. It's not like joining EZY or RYR where the company is opening up new bases every year and all employees consider new joiners at those bases as equals. You will not be welcomed by other SAS staff.

[Spit15]

Hey Intercooler... Calm down...

Nobody said anything about uprooting families or adapting their lives to fit in with the new airline; rather merely a means to an end; namely a salary paying job to keep the bailiffs from the door. Sure a new airline based in LHR of all places is a risky venture in itself; but for those unfortunate people who don't yet have a better alternative, the SAIL option is a viable alternative to bridge a gap if nothing else. Spare a thought for the guys from Monarch or Air Berlin who have just been made redundant, approaching winter and Christmas. From someone who is safely employed in a legacy carrier, I would hate to think that my colleagues would behave with such acrimony if a similar venture were set up.

[ATIS]

Anyone spouting rubbish like "you will not be welcome" need to remember that if faced with the same situation, the failure of the airline you've worked decades for, and another less favourable one opens up shop, you would most likely DO THE SAME THING especially if you have bills and a family to provide for. And that is the truth.

I've seen my previous joyful colleagues reduced to tears. Right now SAIL are their saviour, and they are under no illusion that the Terms are vastly inferior. But bills need to be paid.

[Elephant and Castle]

Rubbish. There are hundreds of jobs out there. Many airlines are paying golden hello´s to captains. There are many ways of putting food on the table without lowering your pants. I cannot remember in the recent past a time where crew have been in such demand.

[CargoOne]

Let me remind you - that was exactly 10 years ago, back in 2007. And it will be the same for the most of 2018. Like in 2008....

[ATIS]

For DECs there are indeed lots of jobs out there. My LinkedIn account has been crazy busy since Monarch went down. (With Emirates emailing me the day before shutdown). But they are in Asia, Middle East and Turkey.

I'm from the northern half of UK, there are no Airbus jobs up here. I'm off to WOW as that's the closest I can get. I did apply to SAIL and EZY but no joy.

[HippoDK]

I completely understand the need for having a job but do not kid yourself - every pilot hired in SAIL is taking a job from a scandi pilot. This is not a "new" base with an expanding route network, but a takeover of routes originating out of Scandinavia. The same goes for any base that might open - hence the not so open arms from mainline pilots.

[AFA]

I was seconded to a large Scandanavian carrier in the early 2000's. Fantastic flying and really brilliant guys generally but holy crap they were militant union wise.
Even though we were on an exchange program where exactly the same number of Scandi pilots would come to fly for us in the UK we were subject to very close scrutiny by the line pilots and often questioned why we were there 'taking their flying'. If we were rostered what was considered a prime trip it would swiftly be withdrawn after some vocal and public complaints.

That said, if you need the job and its the only option then of course your family needs come first - however I have heard anecdotally that some Monarch guys fortunate enough to be offered both Virgin and SAIL are taking the SAIL job just to keep their fourth stripe.

If you've no alternative then fair enough but in my experience it won't be that pleasant for them passing through CPH or ARN.

[HippoDK]

ATIS there are no airbus jobs in Scandinavia either and for every SAIL pilot there will be one less. I wish you the best of luck in the North Atlantic...

AFA there is no exchange of jobs here it's a one way road. SAIL is a means to an end - busting those "militant" unions and lowering T and C's, actually not unlike what's happening to most legacy carriers in Europe right now.

[anderse]

I did apply to SAIL and EZY but no joy.

Did you get called for SAIL-interview or they never contacted you? I assume you are experienced on A32X?

[Burpbot]

I always thought the Scandinavians were a friendly bunch! I’m sure the scandics received a warm welcome when they all came to work in the UK, just saying ��

[CaptainProp]

Lots of jobs in Europe at the moment. Unfortunately more or less not a single one offering decent terms and conditions. Wow, SAIL, Small Planet, Primera, Eurowings, Germania, and the list goes on, ALL offering terrible contracts with terrible pay.

[ATIS]

Anderse, I attended the CAE roadshow gave my details, but they never contacted me.

I hear that all courses up to Christmas are now full.

[matt283]

Can anybody confirm if it is true that opening of AGP base is now being placed on hold?

[R1ddle]

Taking a job is taking one away from a scandi pilot. I presume you're talking about one that's not employed yet? They aren't going to make any redundant because of SAIL.
I'm sick and tired of blinkered pilots moaning, the demise of Monarch taught me treasure what you have, don't be militant or you might find you have nothing. You should be pleased Monarch people have found jobs

[MD80rookie]

Are you sure about this, buddy?

If you can guarantee that my career prospects as a SAS pilot is unaffected by SAIL I would believe what you say.

Blinkered pilots? I have been made redundant and lost my job in a bankruptcy, I am very sorry for Monarch pilots but should I show them any sympathy and let them steal my job?

[matt283]

With a bit of delay they have 1st a/c:

https://www.planespotters.net/airframe/Airbus/A320/EI-SIA-SAS/1O0lf628

[172_driver]

It says it belongs to Scandinavian Airlnes (SAS).

Even management agrees, that’s not the case ;)

[tprop]

Very Well.
SAIL was created for the sole purpose of undermining the unions and T&Cs of employees in Scandiland. The routes you will be flying are not new or part of any kind of expansion. They are the very same ones SAS has been flying for decades. You may be able to pay your bills now, but you are directly contributing to someone else not being able to. Of course that someone is far away on the other side of the North Sea, so not your problem.
But rest assured you will be considered barely half a notch above a :mad: by those who up until now have been flying those very same planes on those very same routes.

Race to the bottom, every man for himself. It´s like we can´t wait to get there.

[ProfessorSnape]

Yes great idea, I'll pass that around us ex-monarch lot that no one should join as we might make someone not be able to pay bills in the future. So in the meantime we'll live on the poverty line with no income so you can pocket your fat SAS pension. Get real, our airline went bankrupt and tore lives apart with it. Do you think any of us actually want to fly for SAS Ireland? No. But it sure beats sitting at home worrying about how the mortgage will be paid and how food can be put on the table for children.

Get real. (And no I'm not joining myself)

I honestly can't believe some of the stuff I read on here sometimes

[LHS320]

Prof’
Exactly!
I’m not joining either, nor am I going to Thomas Cook belarics! I’m lucky to have a position now, and no I didn’t get an interview with VS.

It’s not about a race to the bottom it’s about being able to operate an airline once we exit the EU, That’s the bean counters view, imho.
Whoever takes the opportunities the best of British. Your going to need it because the industry has nose dived because, like these adverse comments your own colleagues don’t stand together and see the bigger picture.

[HippoDK]

Well management is getting what they want - us throwing mud amongst ourselves and the bean counters are filled with joy looking at their spreadsheets and wondering if they can make us work for even less.

I do wonder however if this outfit will ever become airborne - rumor has it that head of operations just quit and left for Norwegian - funny :mad:.

[A319]

I’m sure EZY and VS have already swept up the most qualified pilots from Monarch and these are the leftovers along with the Libyan first officers currently training. Survival of the fittest...

[McBruce]

It’s you whose allowing the degredation of your own terms, not someone far far away.

Youre an organised work force do something about it before it’s too late.

[172_driver]

There isn’t much mainline pilots can do about this I am afraid. We can somewhat control our own situation, but we don’t run the company. If they want to set up a separate entity, albeit in the same colors, we’re short of leverage.

I don’t blame the Monarch, Air Berlin or Wizzair pilots for joining this gig. They try to self-maximize. Anyone who doesn’t is a hypocrat. I do however question the morals of the management who I wonder got their university degree from where? Put their kids through schools paid by who? Now they’re going to finance Ireland corrupted aviation authority and tax system, on routes previously flown by Scandinavian crew to/from Scandinavia.

Nope, can’t say I am happy about it. Enjoy the Stockholm layovers.

[CaptainProp]

Temporary and then to what? Asia? The new standard “deal” for 320/737 captains in Europe seems to be around €6-7000 gross on a contract via agency with no pension, no or very low sick pay, 8 days off per month spread out over the month and no fixed base.

Good luck.

[SE210]

I understand, that Monarch and Air Berlin pilots need to pay their bills.

Still, you can compare it to the Ansett/Trans Australian situation in 1989. The original employees got out-manoeuvred, and other labour took their place.

They were called :mad:, and to this day the situation cause tension.

I am aware, that the Australian pilots all resigned in order to put pressure on the management, but I fully understand their anger.

[Maxfli]

In 1989 there was a strike.
There was hiring ban put in place by IFALPA.
Those who flew, did so knowing they were strike breaking.

None of those factors are in play today.
Is it cost reducing? Yes
Will it erode the SAS contract over time? Definitely
What are the SAS pilots doing about it? Nothing

Matthew 5:5 is not a suitable strategy to address your issues.

[ProfessorSnape]

I’m sure EZY and VS have already swept up the most qualified pilots from Monarch and these are the leftovers along with the Libyan first officers currently training. Survival of the fittest...
Incorrect. EZY have taken a lot of TREs. No DECs are starting before April. There is no FO recruitment until September at the earliest. How do I know this? Because I was sat in the old Concorde House talking to the easyJet pilot recruitment team in one of the Monarch drop in sessions they set up. Virgin hired 50, a fair few of them were LHS at Monarch so a lot of FOs kicking around.

The way i see it is that there will be a lot of turnaround in this gig.
Temporary anchor then move to better fields.
Do not blame the driver guys. Correct. I'd imagine as soon as easyJet do FO assessments the floodgates will open.

All of SAS's christmases have come at once with Monarch going down.

[semmern]

It’s you whose allowing the degredation of your own terms, not someone far far away.

Youre an organised work force do something about it before it’s too late.

Believe you me, the unions tried. EU laws actually don't allow the unions to oppose this, it is within a company's right to establish subsidiaries. At least that's what the legalese said when the unions read it.

[RHINO]

ProfessorSnape said

Incorrect. EZY have taken a lot of TREs. No DECs are starting before April.

This is incorrect!

[ProfessorSnape]

RHINO - in which case that's excellent news! I'm not aware of a single captain who has a date before April but if they do I'm very happy for them. It was a right pain for many just trying to book an assessment as it required constant monitoring of the site for a day to pop up!

[RHINO]

DEC's started nearly two weeks ago...

[heavydane]

Dear SAS pilots,

Much like the Cathay/49'er conflict You can not expect other pilots to fight Your fight.
You start the fight, then others might join in.

Legal mumbo jumbo about why You have been unable to do something is just bs.

Stop looking for excuses for doing nothing, You have been doing that for 15 years and see where that got You!

[172_driver]

You do know right that all our planes we’re parked up 1,5 years ago to get rid of the “A and B scale”? More than can be said about Cathay? It’s got everything to do with the “legal mumbo jumbo”. Public support is long gone in this low cost era.

I am of the opinion the unions could have a tougher attitude in some issues we’re facing but had there been a reasonable way to stop this I am sure they would’ve.

[heavydane]

172,

Yes I am aware, also aware You just signed a new 3 year contract to get a few % payraise while SAIL gets of the ground!

Public support and reasonable solutions are just more excuses.

You have to be prepared to wage war on management, talk will get You nowhere.

[172_driver]

C195,

It's limited by CLA, but still too many :{

hd,

3 year agreement that can be waived after 2. And no, I wasn't in support of that either.

Hopefully SAIL will soon be written off as a one time loss, just as Snowflake, Spanair, etc.

[semmern]

According to the IAA website, still no AOC.

[mrshubigbus]

What's happening at SAS Ireland? I see that two A320NEOs have been delivered to Stockholm Arlanda and EI-SIA is currently in Shannon? What's the very latest therefore?

[A319]

As everyone knew 6 months ago: No AOC.

How long did it take Norwegian? A year? SAS is in for a long wait.

Run while you can...

[ATIS]

I might be wrong, but I'm sure they couldn't fly from Stockholm to Shannon without an AOC. Only the initial delivery flight is exempt.

Crew training is being conducted in Ireland

[A319]

No AOC. Confirmed by SAS management in several Scandi newsmedia today...

[Denti]

Don’t confuse AOC and registration. Just because a plane has an irish registration doesn’t mean it has to be flown in an irish AOC. Therefore, if that irish registered plane is flying it can do so in any kind of AOC.

[ATIS]

So according to mates at SAIL, they received a letter from SAIL CEO announcing the receiving of AOC couple of days ago.

[tprop]

... and at the very same time SAS tells scandi media (børsen.dk) "no AOC yet".

Sounds like they are stringing along their SAIL employees.
Any day now, any day.

Tell us, how many of those mates of yours are getting paid while they wait?

[A319]

Current AOC holders. Irish CAA:

https://www.iaa.ie/commercial-aviation/airspace-3/air-operator-certificate-holders

Don't leave. The cheque is in the mail...

[SE210]

I heard a rumour, that some of the NPHs had found other jobs.

With no proper staff, no AOC I guess

[GDAJB]

They do have an AOC. It came into effect on the 13th December (Licence number 04/17)
The crew are being paid.

[Thad Jarvis]

I notice CAE are advertising management jobs again for positions that were supposed filled

[CaptainProp]

From CAEs LinkedIn account:

We are very proud of our client SAS Ireland having recently been approved their Air Operator Certificate (AOC).

EI-SIA is the very first in the SAS Ireland A320neo Fleet, and ready for service. Two more brand new aircraft being delivered in the coming weeks EI-SIB and EI-SIC.

Flights to commence between London Heathrow and Copenhagen next week, crewed exclusively by CAE Parc Aviation.

Follow SAS Ireland on LinkedIn to keep up with all the latest news and developments:

https://lnkd.in/gX2Si7s

[R1ddle]

AOC up and running, airline is doing well.

I think this whole setup and the demise in Monarch is a lesson against very strong unions. Be fair but realise the company you work for needs to make a profit.

Companies with legacy terms and conditions and very strong unions will find another way of reducing costs.

Because of this yes there is a race to the bottom and T&C's are worse, so next time everyone gets belligerent, think before you get red mist and get too unionised..

Unions have a very valid and important place, but so do we as employees in recognising the company needs to make money

[Boeing 7E7]

What evidence can you provide that Monarch’s demise was due to a strong pilot union? Anything?

[172_driver]

I think this whole setup and the demise in Monarch is a lesson against very strong unions. Be fair but realise the company you work for needs to make a profit.

What evidence can you provide that Monarch’s demise was due to a strong pilot union? Anything?

Ditto for SAS, in what way have the unions been unreasonable?

Unless we accept the norm that everyone should be hired off shore and dicked around with in their personal life, this seems to be nothing but union busting. SAS is already making profit.

[semmern]

SAS just made its biggest profit in 20 years. Before SAIL started flying.

[gnarlberg]

thanks guys!

same for us in Germany. Its not the unions fault. Of course NIKI and LGW operated with a small profit. Why? Because they got all their Overhead Maintenance CAMO Crewing ATO Lawyers Merchandizing technology Performance Slots from its mother. Did somebody ever look at the costs and has the mother ever sent a bill for all this groundhandling to niki/lgw with a reasonable amount? No! But we the Pilots are too expensive. :mad:. CEO´s can just look at the costs and McKinsey KPMG & Co can't value motivation.
And what happened in germany? Airberlin bought small crap airlines to put there slots to them and let others buy those airlines with slots. Both airlines wouldnt have been able to live 3 months without its mother.
2 Years ago i applied for SAS and its so sad that they break down the company. my dream is still to get back to Sweden and work there...
The company paid 10.000 Euro for one single off day for longhaul. The union told them since 4 years they have to employ people. But if you calculate with 95BHR for every employee and without sickness the boomerang kicks back.
But yeah listening to the union and employ two first officers for 4400€ each month is worse than paying 10.000 for one day off for a captain.

Its always such a surprise that the summer always begins in June !

[giorgino]

It would be nice to hear from an insider how are things there as the company has started finally to fly...

[SE210]

Gnarlberg - I could not agree more.

PS - the pilots in SAS were never compensated with 10.000 euros for selling one day. More like 1.000 euros.

[gnarlberg]

We also calculated and came to the conclusion that it would be cheaper to pay people to leave.
Example:
20 First Officers and 20 Captains all in the highest salary.
If you pay those 20 Captains 200.000 Euro each for leaving and quitting, let them go to Etihad and continue there last 3 years of their Career you could save Salary of 2 Years.
For this saved money you can upgrade the 20 very expensive first officers to captains, so they just become middle range captains in terms of salary. And you can employ 25 new First Officers which each cost 40% of the Old First Officers.

You have created opportunities for many and rearranged the salary distribution.But noooo the union is so dumb...

CEO´s current leadership style is : Divide and rule. This will kick back. Im sure that one AOC with motivated employees will be better in long term future than 5 AOC´s all operating the same A/C with contracts in 4 different countries. They divide and rule. then the union is forced to sign bad agreements. when these bad agreements are signed, they put the AOC´s together again and created a company where people fight against each other...

[172_driver]

gnarlberg,

It’s true the company would like to get rid of expensive pilots and have tried so through various methods. How wise that is is for anyone to judge. Personally I think it’s extremely short sighted.

[GKOC41]

Best way to "get rid" is offer part time. Normally this is taken up by senior Captains, replace with "cheaper" Captains upgraded from FO who are replaced by cheaper new FO's.
Works well

[dcoded]

I heard there are "droves" of FOs from both ARN and OSL leaving the company for Norwegian since they are now employing to all nordic bases.

Question:

Is there any plans to take up recruitment for SAS nordic bases in the "near" future?
Or this loss of FOs will suit the company well so they can staff their SAS Ireland with new hires instead?

[172_driver]

The FOs that’ve left/about to leave are the “cheap once”, hired after 2013 who’ve realized they can earn more for the same work elsewhere. Or achieve a better quality of life elsewhere. Good thing is it sends a clear message to management that none have invested their life in this company.

Part time is also a hot topic, but generally works better if offered on a voluntary basis rather than forced upon the work force.

Is there any plans to take up recruitment for SAS nordic bases in the "near" future?

Part of the frustration that some may be feeling is that none knows where this ship is steering. If SAS will cease to exist as we know it and continue as a brand with cheaper production units (like SAIL) performing the work.

At some point they must hire more, but when and in what form remains unknown.

[Aeromaniac]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/reuters/2018/01/18/business/18reuters-sas-strategy.html?referer=https://www.google.co.uk/

So this reports 40-50 new A320 neos required on a possible order.
Selling off of various sections of the company, this making SAS attractive for a buyout from another company.

Will either of these happen?

Will LHR see extra a320’s?
Will they see any of the A330 on order?
Will they just become part of another carrier?

Will the current abysmal package ever improve to something half decent?

[R1ddle]

Look, as far as i'm concerned, I will be polite and friendly to ANY SAS pilot/crew I come across, if they are not so to me - that is up to them.

I like the Scandinavian people! I need to pay my mortgage. I very much doubt many SAS pilots would be prepared to relocate to LHR at no cost (but am prepared to be corrected) We are saving SAS money on many levels & helping the airline... I do understand the sceptisism from SAS crew however and hope to alleviate their concerns in the future..

You will find SAS Ireland VERY professional (many pilots are X Monarch whose stds were second to none - and the others I have met have shown outstanding stds too), we hope to emulate the standards of SAS mainline! I suspect if SAS Ireland didn't get off the ground, LHR would close or reduce services eventually.

As pilots we MUST all realise the airline is a business that MUST make money however.

AND Yes, there were many instances when Monarch pilots/union had NO idea the state the airline was in.
In 2014 & 2017 within weeks of an imminent collapse, we got pay rises and increases in T&C's...

Best of luck to you all...

[gnarlberg]

Are there any news on SAS positions CPH ARN OSL? they have updated their Homepage sasgroup.net stating that they're looking for 320 FO´s in CPH, also the Head recruiter told me some weeks ago they're currently only looking via CAE for SAIL but I should keep my application up to date... some weeks ago the SASgroup.net website was frozen and it was written you can't update your application. Today it was possible to update upload stuff. Seems like there is movement ?

R1ddle, well you are breaking the neck of the old SAS crews and try to earn understanding for that. Thats not nice. And looking at their pay scale you def. earn more in UK.

SAIL:
Basic Salary
£ 3,300.00 per month
Flight allowance (applicable once 15 days worked in a month)
£1,000.00 per month
Overtime per b/h
£ 78.33 per b/h over 60
Overnight allowance
£ 51.00 per night
Standby daily rate
£ 50.00
+LOL , medical & accident insurance

SAS Scandinavia for ex.

28,845 SEK + Duty pay(?)
+4-5000 SEK per diem

[172_driver]

R1ddle,

I will naturally be pleasant to any crew I meet, colleagues as competitors. Any SAS pilot will, if they look themselves deep in the mirror, understand there is a human behind any SAIL position who does what’s best for him/her and their family. You can hate the game but not the players. With that said, I don’t think SAIL should’ve ever seen the light and I do react when you say that you help us and saving us money. That’s quite arrogant to say and nothing you or I know much about as normal line pilots. I wonder how many support functions SAIL is borrowing from SAS “free of charge”.

There is definitely sceptism about the direction this airline is heading. Some reasons that’s so 1. The Scandinavian image, we now often have flights without any Scandinavian speaking members (not only SAIL but other sub-contractors too). 2. Career progression, halted when we loose our work to SAIL. They’re actively looking for voluntary leave of absence. Hope that won’t escalate into layoffs... 3. The moral of flagging out the operation. We live in a country with a developed welfare system, with lots of service ranging from free nursery for our kids to free university degrees. I wonder if our own CEO forgot who paid his very own master? It sure wasn’t Ireland.

Gnarlberg,

You numbers are off. I don’t have the exact ones in front of me but I think you start in the region of 37 000 SEK/month if rated, a bit less if not rated. No flight pay, same salary regarding of hours. Per diem depends on your destination, number of overnights and stop duration. You can see up to 8000 SEK/month in per diem. Do what you want with it, dine nice, spend on beer or save up.

[gnarlberg]

I wonder how many support functions SAIL is borrowing from SAS “free of charge”

Thats exactly the problem. They only exist because of the hard working people in Scandinavia. SAIL surely has no ATO CAMO maintenance crewing overhead and stuff. its just a hull with airplanes and crew. That looks super good on the paper because they are making lots of profit.... and then SAS Scandinavia looks bad because they are expensive and don't make any profit....

i have experienced that in my company.

what is the next step? SAIL gets the interesting slots. then SAS goes bankrupt and the big German knocks on the door to "help". And what is he going to buy? exactly, SAIL. Aircraft and Slots maybe with crew. And all people working in Scandinavia can look for a new job. They took all their capital and put it into SAIL and let a big company buy out SAIL, because then they get the slots and aircraft without buying the whole "toxic" cake. Why? because he ":8" already has camo maintenance ato crewing and all other overhead. welcome to 2018 ladies and gentleman. exactly what happened in Germany.

[returnofthemack]

Unless some inexperienced SAS Ireland (SAIL) crew crash and burn, God forbid it, a SAIL plane, before the end of the real SAS. Can't be ruled out either.

[returnofthemack]

Raski

Not everybody can handle the truth, they'd rather speculate and hope the best. The fact is that the CoS offered are absolutely crap and will NOT attract solid, experienced pilots. Deal with it!

[MD80rookie]

Standards are the same as SAS mainline.


Great.
How long have you been flying together? For how long have you been building your company culture? How many Scandinavian winters have you experienced?

[gnarlberg]

Im not at SAIL but I have been up in Helsinki during winter to operate for a local airline there. I don't think Scandinavian winters are something special, I would more say its easier than central european.

If the snow falls in Arlanda, so what? where is the problem? They are professionals in handling the snow, deicing, getting the airbus computers to work when its cold. Sure, braking action "good" isnt always good, its sometimes medium to poor, but we´re talking about an A320 landing, not Mriya A225 ! Same as the tailwind on "14" in LSZH. 3 knot tail on ATIS; 15 in real. Local specials you need to adapt to....
Its so easy flying up north in the winter in my opinion.

Imagine FCO, 5 cm of snow. They first need to get all deicers from the coffee machine , and every pilot is scared of taxiing on Ice/Snow so the whole airport would breakdown. Same in germany, france etc. its always a surprise that the winter starts in december....
If you have drifted a bit with cars in the alps on snow you know how an aircraft handles and that you need to make smooth inputs and be relaxed and not afraid.

So SAIL pilots are skilled exactly as other pilots. They're for sure doing a great job.

[Elephant and Castle]

You can "imagine" FCO in snow if you like but the reality on the day is that FCO is sunny and Helsinki is +SN BA Medium Medium Poor and so is every alternate around Helsinki

[Icejock]

ARN, HEL, OSL are the easy airports to operate to, try going to TOS, BOO, KKN, ALF or OSD for that matter in real winter ops and I would think you would revise the easy part...

[returnofthemack]

You'll be speaking to deaf ears, mate. With the CoS on offer, most of the recruits will be all over the place, picture Bambi on wet ice! Left, right, centre, with SAS painted on the tail! The greatest question of all it - who will be held accountable! The low substandard paid Commander for sure, but what about upper management? Who will that be? Who's the accountable manager?

[heavydane]

R1ddle,

Aside from me understanding and respecting that You have mouths to feed, the rest of Your statement and many other SAIL pilots with You is utter rubish.
You are looking out for number one and in no way are You helping SAS.

We have seen it all before with Spanair, Blue One et al. Companies with lower operating cost due to heavy subsidies from the mother ship, created only to put pressure on mainline T&C's. Nothing good will come from SAIL except a few unfortunate pilots able to feed their families for a while. SAIL is a cancer in SAS and the sooner its gone the better.

[returnofthemack]

Cheers to that! BUT again, speaking to ignorant deaf ears! Hey these suckers just took on a pathetic contract and now work for a "legacy" carrier.. Oh boy, if only they knew how the rest of the world actually look at them, in their pretty SAS uniforms... "The same standard.." yeahhhh.

[Tick Hunter]

Does anybody know what kind of assessment SAIL is running, for Cpt?
Thanks!

[172_driver]

This isn’t a pissing contest (or shouldn’t be) who’s got higher standards. Flying northern Norway and you’ll benefit from the wisdom of those who’ve done so before. And good handling skills is needed.

[returnofthemack]

Does anybody know what kind of assessment SAIL is running, for Cpt?
Thanks!

According to the wisdom of some individuals around these areas, it's the same high standard as mainline SAS... Obviously these people must have tried both! When I come to think of it, they probably failed the mainline assessment and went onto have a go at SAIL... LoL :D

[ATIS]

Before Monarch failed, failure rate for the SAIL sim assessment was running at 40%.

So I reckon there are some high standards on the line.

Oh, I know several people who got into BA on the 4th attempt. Yet people think it's full of the best and elite.

[gnarlberg]

but since SAS isnt recruiting in core since 2 years, we don't need to discuss about this.
I´m updating my application since 2015 and no change so far. hoping for the best.

[2802th]

I am one of the SAIL Captains. Yes I was a loyal ex Monarch employee, and being British I wanted to fly in my home country. Ex military and 22 years mainly long haul and I’m no where near the most experienced in SAIL. Our experience level smashes Easy and others into another universe. Anyone with any doubts about the ability, and capability of the workforce should spend time in the winter in the US, Canada, Innsbruck etc etc if they doubt our abilities to operate in cold weather. As for standards, as previously said on here, the selection failure rate prior to the demise of Monarch was over 50%, guess what it’s virtually nil now and before you ask, no, not all the examiners are ex Monarch!

Is it fair to SAS Mainline Pilots, possibly not, but my experience of 35 years in professional aviation has shown me clearly the disparity that exists in European airlines and who gets jobs in them. Most UK airlines have many pilots from all European countries. My UK colleagues are basically excluded from all the major European carriers no second third language etc etc. Yes this is the reality like it or not.

Is the airline working? oh yes, we are under a massive microscope and one initial factor is OTP and guess what we are doing better than our mainline colleagues despite the best efforts of the ground based handling individuals to sabotage that. I am one of the fortunate ones in this sorry industry, I fly because I choose to, not because I have to. I do have many friends who are less fortunate and a jobs a job. Ask yourself this, if your mortgage arrears were growing, your wife and children were increasingly upset, would you really not take the SAIL job, based on your principals?

Will it succeed, I don’t know, I’ll have hung my boots up by then, as this is my last (only second) job and I’ll sit back and watch as the reality of the future in this industry unfolds, knowing I had some of the true best of it.

[returnofthemack]

Sorry about Monarch going down and leaving you without a job.

Just know one thing, if you don't already, that SAIL is just another race to the bottom experiment from SAS. It's a union busting exercise.

Luckily for your, by the sound of it, you'll have left this industry before the next "great" thing happens. Welcome to taking on the job that actively helps erode the industry, not that I blame you for you're desperation after Monarch, just don't expect everybody else to endorse it.

Guess what? in 5-10 years SAIL will be deemed too expensive and what will management do? Can you guess it?

[Graybulls]

Returnofthemack

You avoided answering the question though, about what you would do, if God forbid, you found yourself in the same position......bills to be paid, wife/kids upset etc.

Or would you put your principles before your family?

[Burpbot]

Well returnofthemack if you truly believe that, why don’t you band together with all your like minded colleagues grow a pair and fight to protect your T&Cs? Surely that’s more effective than bleating on here under anonymity? Are you on The flybe/cityjet threads and bleating at them for operating sas routes?

[Burpbot]

Actually many SFO’s have been offered DEC or fast track commands in a variety of companies.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Let me start with saying, that I attended SAIL selection last year and passed it. However, I decided to decline the contract, because it was crap. I also felt didn’t want to be involved in a conflict between the management and the Mainline Pilots.

However, after reading the comments above, presumably from SAS Mainline guys, about how high standards they have and how everyone else is crap, I have lost all the sympathy. What do you know about standards of other airlines and pilots, if you have only flown for one ol’Boys club, where everyone is patting each other on the back and telling themselves how good they are?

You are flying same airplanes as everyone else, in the same sky, to the same destinations, using same procedures and in the same regulatory framework, under supervision of the same CAA. What makes you think you are better pilots than others? With attitude like this, you deserve to be shafted.

P.S. this also pertains to some “astronauts“ from other major/legacy airlines. If you guys want support for your case, you first need to get of your high horse...

[maxpeck]

I think most pilots in europe can press the autopilot buttons to a similar standard these days.....

[172_driver]

I think the thread has run its course.

I started it as another manifestation of what union busting/employee shafting looks like. It wasn’t about who’s got the highest standards. Mainline crew is sceptical about management decision to drop the Scandinavian in SAS, yes... but that was done before SAIL got off the ground. Now sub-contracting is being sold to the cheapest bidder.

I am more concerned about the leadership and ethics of my employer. They took care of us. Latest actions (and there is more to it than SAIL) show their true colors. I for one which nothing bad upon any individual, but I do hope that SAIL is a short lived story. Not to stick it to anyone. Just to stop the shafting of the employees and its union. They haven’t been unreasonable in any way, just mere wage increases to keep in line with inflation. Most demands have come from management.

[2802th]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but all I said was the experience level of the pilots accepting positions in SAIL is higher than the industry average. This is obviously because an airline with very long term career pilots has gone bust, which as someone else on here eluded to is a bonus for the SAIL recruitment team.
Any 5/4 contract for a U.K. based pilot, not wanting the modern day version of long haul, living 1hour from LHR is a dream. Crap is an interesting term 150k in China is great until the divorce and the wife keeps the house! That’s crap. Again I speak with personal experience of 35 years in this industry and with many friends working in all corners of this industry, ranging from Senior management to F/O’s.

FWIW the general concensus amongst the guys and girls I’m flying with is it’s a very pleasant place to be, New A/C, high standards, good destinations and a feeling of belonging. Yes the Ts and Cs need improving but that is achievable.

[returnofthemack]

Don't worry, it will be short lived - at least they didn't name it Snowflake (google it together with SAS - it lasted a hole year, so I guess SAIL can only do better!) - that came and left as quick as a snowflake. Too bad for the good guys that are joining this SAILing project, hoping for the best. But then again, I hope and suspect at lot of the SAILing joiners are just there for a tempo job (who else would accept the substandard contract), until something better (not hard!) comes along! Good luck with that project. :D

Now have a laugh at this link, and imagine "Snowflake" renamed "SAS Ireland";https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowflake_(airline) - google snowflake SAS

[GScapture]

This thread was about SAIL and now people are just arguing about everything :hmm:

People are getting offended way too easily. Anyone who has any amount of sense in his/her head understands the dynamics of this industry and the social dumping that the European authorities allow.

Last thing I would do is to offend a fellow colleague of doing his job. Like he was the one who decided to undercut someone’s contract? Not to mention to be happy about it? People are just trying to feed their families and get their mortgages paid.

Don’t hate the people, hate the industry.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but all I said was the experience level of the pilots accepting positions in SAIL is higher than the industry average (...).


@2802th, just to set this straight - my previous post was not directed at you, but some earlier comments of this thread...

[highfive]

Most UK airlines have many pilots from all European countries. My UK colleagues are basically excluded from all the major European carriers no second third language etc etc. Yes this is the reality like it or not.

This fact is the primary reason UK airline pay and conditions have plummeted compared to the 80s. The UK CAA Licence was the bees knees , and was a desired qualification. As was the queens english :E

[172_driver]

At the moment, two Irish and one English airline flying for SAS in SAS colors. No Scandinavian language requirements.

[tprop]

As usual, descending into a “my **** is bigger than your **** contest. Some really assinine boasts and comments being thrown around. Can´t imagine these posters are SK mainline, they sound like wannabes.
“returnofthemack", you are embarrassing, crawl back under your rock.

That said: returof…. is dead on with his comment that SAIL is a union busting exercise. Wether you are xMonarch or some other down on his luck jock, whining about having to pay a mortgage is pathetic. This IS a union busting exercise, and if you take this job then you are part of it. You forfeit forever your right to bitch, you are forever part of the problem, an accelerator in the race to the bottom, and if you want a modicum of respect from your peers you should at least own up to it.

[returnofthemack]

Returnofthemack

You avoided answering the question though, about what you would do, if God forbid, you found yourself in the same position......bills to be paid, wife/kids upset etc.

Or would you put your principles before your family?

Perhaps my family are staying with me because I have principles and see them through. Just because YOU're not able to make principles and family work out together with yours - doesn't mean others can't. It's called planning ahead - something that should be a corner stone in any pilot.

[Graybulls]

Absolutely, I wouldn't have lasted over 30 years in this industry without doing so, but thanks ever so much for the tip!

But 'Planning Ahead' is somewhat difficult when you wake up on Mon Oct 2nd to find out you have been made unemployed overnight.

I personally will never make an apology whatsoever, for putting my family first, always have done, always will do.

For what its worth, I'm not at SAIL, but I wish my former colleagues well with their new employment, because that's what nice people do :rolleyes:

[returnofthemack]

You sound like a top bloke with all good intentions! Too bad it came as such a surprise to you that the ship was sinking. This is just another business - being nice before smart - may not always pay off. Guess even 30 years of experience didn't teach you that - just proves that experience is NOT everything. Good luck once again.:D

[Aeromaniac]

Wow. So full of hate and bitterness, you must be a joy to spend the day with Mack!

Are you this bitter against the other carriers that wear SAS colours!

I understand the worry of SAS starting a subsidiary, terms and conditions at mainline could come down.
However after start up, the t&c seem to be creeping upwards at SAIL, on par Easyjet.

Instead of being bitter at people purely seeking employment I’d be more worried by your own SAS management.
Mainline obviously can’t compete against Norwegian, Easyjet and Ryanair etc.
This is why a cheaper operation is meant to be helping out.
If they don’t make mainline work in the modern day and age, you could find t&c cuts and redundancy a lot closer to home!
Every other airline in Europe is going through it , BA, Lufthansa, Air France etc all have low cost subsidiaries!
Welcome to the new world!

[returnofthemack]

Thanks for your concern, it's very warming, and much needed (and laughable!)
The ones that needs to be worried are the ones that are sliding into the SAIL ship.

You're comparison with the other European legacy carrier exposes your lack of understanding of what's going on with SAS and the SAIL. SAIL is operating on core mainline routes with an, optically at least, identical product, but at a fraction of the price, party because of substandard crewing (lets just pretend it's just the CoS, otherwise you all go itchy touchy chicks), and partly because the majority of the overheads (costs) are covered or heavily subsidized. Conveniently, for the conquer and divide SAS management, mainline SAS are getting no discounts. I guess all of this is nonsense and irrelevant to any of you guys joining SAIL to undercut the mainline SAS (with industry standard CoS).

Just remember this. Don't come crying in a couple of years (Snowflake) when SAS chooses to shut down the operation. You'll surely be on your own -with little or no sympathy. Too bad you don't like being talked to directly and all have to be so god damn sensitive. Losing a job in one place - doesn't give anybody the entitlement to another job at any price. Short sighted princesses.

[Aeromaniac]

That just shows your immature lack of understanding of the current aviation industry. You sound like the old dinosaurs who refuse to accept that the world has changed since they joined their perfect flag carrier of persons own country.
If one is twice the price to run, guess which will be cut first! Aviation is all
About cutbacks these days!
I know, I have already passed and been offered employment previously at Emirates, I turned them down due to the cutbacks there, not worth the move for me! 1 in 6 get through, let me know if you are good enough!

[172_driver]

However after start up, the t&c seem to be creeping upwards at SAIL, on par Easyjet
Is that a fact or speculation? If they find crew, why would they improve T&C?

[172_driver]

We'll see about that then. Employing people in Scandinavia is expensive, the employer's social contributions are high. The rational for hiring people abroad to do our flying. If they increase T&C that would defeat the purpose. In terms of money net of tax, I think SAIL could already be ahead of mainline SK.

[matt283]

One thing that is worth mentioning is the fact that the whole airline is run by agency - cae park aviation...

[172_driver]

C172,

Thanks for caring so much for the rest of us than your ex-Monarch buddies. I don't get you... on one hand you don't like the way T&C are going, on the other you speak highly of this union busting set up, inviting expats to come home, low timers to gain experience. Then you go on to think that T&C is going to improve. Not really the hiring ground that sets the bar very high. SAIL was set up to reduce cost, not the other way around. It's called "In Shape". I am not sure SAIL pilots have been introduced to that term.

So please tell me more about this permanent contract that you'll get...... I am genuinly interested to know. Everyone would benefit if you got union representation to negotiate for you. Somehow I just don't think that is what SAS wants.

[172_driver]

Currently the contract is with CAE Parc leading to a permanent contract later this year or so I am told. Lets be grateful that many were to find work quickly as Job seekers allowance will only go so far.

I told so earlier that I don't hate the player, I am glad things are working out for those in dire straits. What I do have a beef with is the moral of flagging out. Not because I am Scandinavian and care more for Scandinavians than Brits, but because at least we've got a union that is fighting hard to just maintain the quality of life we've got. And then we're completely undermined by an agency airline that is putting even higher pressure on us to be flexible to management's demands.

[BluSdUp]

How many pilots has SAS hired lately.?
How many SAS FOs has quit and gone to for example NOR or back to RYR?

SAIL was set up for Union busting to save a cent!

[Serenity]

A lot of SAIL savings cone from the Irish tax breaks. Hence why Ireland has become the aviation flag of convenience.

[Direct Bondi]

The abhorrent race to the bottom - can it be stopped?

The head monkey at SAS was left with little competitive choice but to follow Boring Juice Airways and open new base(s) renting pilots from agency service providers.

The pilots union and its members may have been promised that “agency pilots will be offered permanent contracts when the base is profitable." Permanent contracts with the airline or another agency possibly disguised as a resource group to prevent an employment relationship with the airline(?).

Ex-Monarch pilots and others with union aspirations should carefully read their agency contracts for clauses that may be used to permit quick termination of their organizational skills without notice reason or recourse.

Don’t be fooled by any disingenuous “welcome to unions” that will have no representation with the airline. Boring Juice Airways pilots pay union dues for representation to their agency employer not the airline.

History shows that efforts to effect change by an airline’s core group of pilots should be carefully considered. Negotiations deteriorating to a strike could cause an airline to be reorganized into separate divisions where ALL pilots are rented from service providers – Link:

https://e24.no/jobb/norwegian-air-shuttle/parat-endrer-ingenting/23409020

Monkey see, monkey do.

[MD80rookie]

Recruitment for the Spanish base, most likely Malaga, is now in progress.

You have to be available to start within a few weeks.

Lower pay than Norwegian, worse schedule than the LHR base.

:D

[Perser_dk]

Anyone heard any news about DEC positions in CPH & ARN? Apparently that was mentioned before on some interviews, but nothing official as I can see.

[gnarlberg]

via CAE @ Perser_dk?

[172_driver]

That would be equivalent to declaring war.

[HippoDK]

That would require SAIL to open bases at CPH and ARN - i really doubt that. DEC into SAS - in your dreams.