Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

[st7860]

Colombian authorities responding to plane crash | CTV News (http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/colombian-authorities-responding-to-plane-crash-1.3181234)

"BOGOTA - Authorities are responding to an emergency after an airplane with 72 people on board has crashed on its way to Medellin's international airport.
Medellin's international airport said on its Twitter account that the aircraft had departed from Bolivia.
It's not clear if there are any survivors. But local media reported that the charter aircraft was carrying members of the soccer team Chapecoense from Brazil, which is scheduled to play Copa Sudamerica finals against Atletico Nacional on Wednesday in Medellin."

[San Diego kid]

Latest rumors say there might be survivors, rescueworkers are reported to try and get people out the wreck.

[MLHeliwrench]

BBC report notes reports of survivors:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38140981

[akerosid]

The aircraft was operated by a Bolivian carrier, LAMIA. It was an RJ85, formerly operated by (among others) Dublin based Cityjet.

Photo: EI-RJK (CN: E2348) British Aerospace Avro RJ85 by John Fitzpatrick Photoid:6938415 - JetPhotos.Net (http://www.jetphotos.net/photo/6938415)

[2Donkeys]

Flightradar24 shows the flight apparently ending whilst in a holding pattern near mountains just to the south of Medellin.

[fordexplorer]

Some pictures:

https://twitter.com/360RadioCo/status/803484952558010368

[BR36]

Airfleets.net shows EI-RJK (now CP-2933) being stored as of September 2015.

[Airbubba]

Flightradar24 shows the flight apparently ending whilst in a holding pattern near mountains just to the south of Medellin.

Here's a Flightradar24 playback:

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/cp-2933/#bbef1b9

[Xeque]

The UK Daily Mirror is publishing a flight tracker (doesn't look like FlightRadar24) that shows an aircraft leaving the hold and heading north(?). Another aircraft comes quite close then jinks away to the left. Almost immediately after that the trace vanishes.
There are no labels on the aircraft shown and no flight data either.

[DaveReidUK]

BBC World Service reporting that the aircraft had declared a fuel emergency.

Suggestions that most on board have survived, with the fuselage having broken in two on impact, but are hard to reach due to inhospitable terrain and poor weather.

[172driver]

The video on the UK Daily Mirror site is weird. At the beginning, there is a caption xyz-name/Flightradar24, then it almost looks like another aircraft collided with the RJ85 as it was leaving the hold. Here's the vid: Plane carrying Brazilian football team crashes in Colombia - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/plane-carrying-brazilian-football-team-9355287)

[Nemrytter]

nother aircraft comes quite close then jinks away to the left. Almost immediately after that the trace vanishes.It's flight radar being stupid, as usual. It extrapolates the flight path if it gets no data, so you can't read anything into what's shown there.

[alainthailande]

Looks to me like a source reliable enough be posted: an announcement from the Medellin Airport Authorities mentioning that the crew had declared an electrical failure before the crash (hence the holding?): https://twitter.com/AeropuertoMDE/status/803485107269017601

[DaveReidUK]

More survivors found (10 so far):

https://twitter.com/CaracolRadio/status/803486850702802944

[Super VC-10]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaMia_Airlines_Flight_2933

[Tu.114]

BBC World Service reporting that the aircraft had declared a fuel emergency.

The GC plotter (http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=vvi-mde) gives a distance between Santa Cruz and Medellín of 1839 SM = 1598 NM (thank You for the correction, Portmanteau). Can somebody who knows the type say whether this is within the capabilities of a RJ85? For what it´s worth, I have talked to an RJ85 crew member years ago who said that flights between HAM and SKG (a bit above 1000SM) gave them planning problems.

Does MDE require a descent in the holding due to surrounding terrain? If not, holding while having declared a fuel emergency appears a peculiar combination.

It is a good thing that at least some survived the accident.

[Singhaboy]

Wasn't this rather a long flight given the range of an RJ85?

[Expressflight]

Figures that I have for the RJ85 show a max payload range of 1,148nm and a maximum 'design' range of 1,782nm.

[Heathrow Harry]

BBC reporting Columbian Police statement 76 dead 7 survivors

[Martin998877]

Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aircraft-data/british-aerospace-avro-rj7085100/47)




says "RJ70 - Max operating speed Mach 0.73, cruising speed 763km/h (412kt), long range cruising speed 720km/h (389kt).


RJ85 - Same, range with max fuel 2965km (1600nm), range with max payload 2130km (1150nm). "

[Super VC-10]

JACDEC reporting that the flight distance exceeded the range of the RJ85. Are we looking at an out of fuel cause here?

2016-11-28 LAMIA Avro RJ-85 crashed near Medellin with 81 on board » JACDEC (http://www.jacdec.de/2016/11/29/2016-11-28-lamia-avro-rj-85-crashed-near-medellin-with-81-on-board/)

[babybaby]

....... no fire ......

[portmanteau]

tu 114, think you will find thats 1839 statute miles = 1600 nm.

[Leg]

An enroute fuel stop might have been planned, though has to be said chartering this type of aircraft for a flight distance of around 1600Nm seems odd.

[The Ancient Geek]

Fuel range may not be a problem, the RJ has a range of up to 2500nm if fitted with the optional aux tanks in which case the range will be MTOW limited.

[Tu.114]

Portmanteau, You are right, thank You for the correction.

Indeed, if this leg stretches the performance of the Avro, it begs the question why it was planned that way. Certainly, there are airports between Santa Cruz and Medellin where they sell fuel?

[birmingham]

It is certainly at the top end for an 85 although it is possible to equip them with up to three auxiliary tanks (although don't know if this one had them) Could also have been weight restricted but with a full load of largely male pax would limit scope for that However even if planned with correct minimum diversion fuel it is a tricky airport to fly into from a terrain point of view and if you had a technical challenge at night with minimum reserves it would make life very difficult

[Capt Scribble]

I realise that aircraft have run out of fuel in the past but surely a crew can not run the tanks dry without saying a word about their situation.

[Saraband]

I don't recall this aircraft having pannier tanks when it was delivered new to Mesaba and unlikely that Cityjet would have added them for their operations. Possible of course that they were subsequently retrofitted for the South American customer.

[The Ancient Geek]

Yea right - the usual idiot speculation.
All will become clearer when we have some real facts. There are always a chain of contributing causes and the full story will not be known until the official report is published.

[warkman]

BBC News reporting it was a chartered flight (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-38140981)


from same BBC page story:-

"What we know about the crash so far
◾Plane operated by Bolivian charter airline Lamia
◾Carrying 72 passengers and nine crew, among them members of the Chapecoense football team
◾Flying from Brazil, bound for Medellin after a stopover in Santa Cruz, Bolivia
◾Plane crashed at 10:15 local time (03:15 GMT) after pilot reported an electrical fault
◾Five people survived the crash, including three footballers"

[Martin_123]

Fuel range may not be a problem, the RJ has a range of up to 2500nm if fitted with the optional aux tanks in which case the range will be MTOW limited.
care to share the source of this information? I just looked up EASA type certificate for RJ85, it says you can fit pannier tanks (that are visible from outside and cause drag) for each wing giving you only about 1000lbs each.. I can't see how 2000lbs of fuel would increase the range by nearly 1000NM? Perhaps it's the military types that can carry that much more?

[FE Hoppy]

You cannot see the AUX tanks when fitted. They do not add any drag.
Without them you can load about 9400kg. That will give you around 1600nm without reserves.

[DirtyProp]

A few pictures of the crash and rescue ops, with others as well.
They're ugly. My condolences to all involved.

Fotos: El accidente de avión del Chapecoense en Colombia, en imágenes | Internacional | EL PAÍS (http://elpais.com/elpais/2016/11/29/album/1480408481_086304.html#1480408481_086304_1480423179)

[IHF]

Apologies if this is the dumbest question so far - but is nine crew (as per BBC story) a plausible configuration for RJ85 ops?

[PEI_3721]

Pictures of the accident site suggest that what appears to be the rear fuselage was reasonably upright and intact, but of interest the centre section and both wings appear inverted, and remain joined together.

[aterpster]

Someone mentioned holding. This is the ILS approach for SKRG:

[T28B]

METARs, per PPRuNe Standards ... (Flightaware's popularity seems to have overtaken METAR's standard appearance on page one of such threads. Times change).

(For SKRG/Rio Negro Airport):
SKRG 290600Z 02003KT 9999 BKN015 BKN080 15/15 A3022 REDZ
SKRG 290500Z 04003KT 8000 -DZ BKN015 BKN080 16/15 A3024
SKRG 290400Z 00000KT 8000 DZ BKN015TCU SCT080 16/15 A3024 RMK RERA
SKRG 290300Z VRB02KT 9999 -DZ BKN015 SCT080 17/16 A3025
SKRG 290200Z 00000KT 9999 BKN015 SCT200 17/16 A3023
SKRG 290100Z 01003KT 9999 SCT017 SCT200 17/16 A3020
SKRG 290000Z 06003KT 9999 SCT017 SCT200 17/16 A3019
SKRG 282300Z 08005KT 9999 VCSH SCT017TCU SCT200 18/16 A3017 RMK TCU VCSH/SW/W

[FrontSeatPhil]

Apologies if this is the dumbest question so far - but is nine crew (as per BBC story) a plausible configuration for RJ85 ops?

As a frequent SLF on a chartered luxury RJ85, nine seems steep but not impossible. I usually see 5 or 6 for a passenger count of maybe 20 people.

[Midland63]

Could it be a CFIT?

[throwaway85]

The CityJet RJ's have wing and a center tank, max total fuel of around 9000kg, but not the aux tanks.

Fuel burn of a conservative 2T/hr, giving you 3.5h-4h + reserves. Cruises at 0.68-0.70. You would be able to lift 81 males + 9T fuel provided you had over about 1500-1800m runway at those temperatures.

So, if they filled it up to the gills they may have been approaching diversion fuel after 1600NM, but not running out. But then who knows how much they brought with them, or whether they's been able to get to panned cruise level, etc etc etc.

Anyhow, very sad.

[M68]

Sky News: Brazilian football team's plane crashes in Colombia killing 76 (http://news.sky.com/story/plane-thought-to-be-carrying-a-brazilian-football-team-crashes-in-colombia-10676541)

"The head of Colombia's civil aviation agency, Alfredo Bocanegra, said reported comments from a female flight attendant that the plane had run out of fuel were being evaluated."

[T28B]

Source = JACDEC (http://www.jacdec.de/2016/11/29/2016-11-28-lamia-avro-rj-85-crashed-near-medellin-with-81-on-board/):
The en-route altitude changed to 30,000 ft. before the pilots began their descent to Medellin at around 21:30L. The landing runway in use at the time was runway 36, meaning an approach from the south. It was dark at the time ... For reasons unknown the aircraft began to fly a holding pattern at 21.000 ft (FL210) near the Rio Negro VOR, about 17 miles southeast of their destination.
According to Colombia media, the pilots requested a holding because the flight experienced some kind of electrical problems. A minute later the pilots requested priority handling.
After one circle, the aircraft cancelled the holding and proceeded northbound its altitude gradually decreasing to 15,000 ft. before contact was lost.
The aircraft was found to have crashed against hillside in wooded, upsloping terrain ... Medellin is surrounded by mountains. This report does not indicate that an emergency fuel state was declared. Whether or not fuel was related to the crew requesting priority handling is unclear.

[The Ancient Geek]

The RJ85 can be fitted with 3 extra fuel options:- Panier tanks, a Rear Bay tank and a Front Bay Tank. Each option increases range at the expence of payload.
There is a graph here, 2016-11-28 LAMIA Avro RJ-85 crashed near Medellin with 81 on board » JACDEC (http://www.jacdec.de/2016/11/29/2016-11-28-lamia-avro-rj-85-crashed-near-medellin-with-81-on-board/) scroll down about 1/3 of the document.

We do not know which tank options, it any, were fitted or how much fuel was actually loaded. It is also unclear whether the quoted ranges are with or without reserves but no sane pilot would have departed without reserves for a diversion plus 60 minutes so we must assume that some extra tanks were fitted.

The fuel theory is most likely a total red herring, expecially in view of the reported electrical problems.

All speculation is futile until we have more facts.

[birmingham]

Yea right - the usual idiot speculation.
All will become clearer when we have some real facts. There are always a chain of contributing causes and the full story will not be known until the official report is published.
I think speculation that fuel management played some (though not maybe the primary causal role) her is inevitable rather than idiotic here and given the surviving wreckage should be a relatively straightforward task for the investigation. As usual FOD to the fans will indicate if the engines were running and the recorders will indicate the status of the fuel system,

But the speculation (and I agree it is that) is justified to a certain extent ...

If you know the 85 this 1600 nm mission is right at the end of the envelope so even with the correct calcs/weight/speed management they would have been under some time pressure if something went wrong on approach. Further those of you who know the A/C will be aware that the outboard (1 & 4) engines (fed from the outer wing tanks) are responsible for power generation while the APU is fed if I remember correctly from the inboard wing tanks. In normal circumstances the fuel system is very straightforward - set and go with the centre tank emptied first as usual. However in the event of fuel starvation anyone getting creative with the valves could also inadvertently create a situation where electrical power is lost as was initially reported (though not verified yet). Even if fuel starvation was not the cause of the reported malfunction Medellin is not the approach where I would want to deal with an electrical failure with limited hold/diversion options.

As people have correctly pointed out there are always multiple causes in incidents such as this and I would be very surprised if fuel management wasn't at least part of the problem.

[2Donkeys]

The source of fuel starvation rumours, quite apart from any speculation here or elsewhere, appears to be a comment made by the surviving Flight Attendant, and reported by Sky News.

[eagleflyer]

No CFIT without fuel, I guess.

If I understand right what I´ve found electrics on the RJ come from two generators (gone) plus the APU (gone) and a battery. No ram air turbine if I´m informed correctly. The hydraulics would have had to be provided by electrical power. I doubt battery alone would provide enough power for very long enough to provide hydraulics as well as keeping basic instrumentation going.
Flying only privately I would not consider planning to the absolute edge of my theoretical max performance or maybe beyond at night into a demanding airfield.

[Martin_123]

The RJ85 can be fitted with 3 extra fuel options:- Panier tanks, a Rear Bay tank and a Front Bay Tank. Each option increases range at the expence of payload.
There is a graph here, 2016-11-28 LAMIA Avro RJ-85 crashed near Medellin with 81 on board » JACDEC (http://www.jacdec.de/2016/11/29/2016-11-28-lamia-avro-rj-85-crashed-near-medellin-with-81-on-board/) scroll down about 1/3 of the document.

We do not know which tank options, it any, were fitted or how much fuel was actually loaded. It is also unclear whether the quoted ranges are with or without reserves but no sane pilot would have departed without reserves for a diversion plus 60 minutes so we must assume that some extra tanks were fitted.

The fuel theory is most likely a total red herring, expecially in view of the reported electrical problems.

All speculation is futile until we have more facts.
thanks for this.

According to avherald -
In the early morning hours of Nov 29th 2016 the CCAA reported, that an investigation has been opened into the crash, data and information are being collected. The head of investigation stated: "No existe evidencia de combustible en la aeronave" (there is no evidence of fuel in the aircraft).

[A0283]

.The fuel theory is most likely a total red herring, expecially in view of the reported electrical problems.

Too early to say of course.

But there have been a number of high profile accidents in the past where the crew focussed on a (minor) technical issue and forgot properly monitoring fuel or speed.

Next to that accidents happen when multiple things go wrong. It is a series of events and not (as far as i have seen - never) a single cause.

[IHF]

As a frequent SLF on a chartered luxury RJ85, nine seems steep but not impossible. I usually see 5 or 6 for a passenger count of maybe 20 people.
Thanks FSP, good point (my SLF experience is on just regular scheduled ops, not charters)

[dmba]

It's being reported here in Brazil that José Maria Córdova airport has stated that there was an electrical failure, notified by the aircraft.

[dmba]

Of the six survivors, three are Chapecoense players. One of these has had a leg amputated in hospital and remains in a critical condition, with head trauma and injuries to his abdomen and thorax. Two other survivors, who were crew, are considered to have non-critical injuries. The other survivor is a journalist who is said be in a stable condition.

A fourth player who survived the crash has since died in hospital.

[eagleflyer]

I saw a picture in some British paper that suggests the flight carried a second flightdeck crew. Might be an explanation.

[PEI_3721]

eagle #49, incorrect.
The RJ has 2 engine driven generators (engs 1 and 4), and 1 (non essential) on the APU; this is the Normal power level.
AC and DC power can be supplied from a hydraulically powered generator (green system) from either of the 2 hydraulic systems (engs 2 and 3) via a power transfer system. This is the Essential level of power.
There is also a Std By static inverter from the battery (second optional) supplying the Emergency level flight instruments.

Thus the aircraft is exceptionally well supported electrically, enabling flight without any power generating systems.
All other airframe systems have sufficient redundancy to enable an emergency landing without any generated electrical power.

[dmba]

Now saying that there were 77 people on board. 4 people on the list did not board the plane.
Crew: 9
Passengers: 68
Survivors: 6

[Super VC-10]

Apparently the airline's owner was flying the aircraft and is one of the fatalities.

Accidente avión Chapecoense: El piloto del avión siniestrado también era el dueño de la aerolínea LaMia | Marca.com (http://www.marca.com/futbol/america/2016/11/29/583d7c31468aeb04128b4578.html)

[ULMFlyer]

FWIW, on the Brazilian aviation forum Contato Radar, someone posted a picture of one of the engines showing little to no damage to the fan blades that are visible

[swiftyb]

Now saying that there were 77 people on board. 4 people on the list did not board the plane.
Crew: 9
Passengers: 68
Survivors: 6

I would hazard a guess at the possibility of a few "extra crew" hopping on board to get to watch the football match.

[eagleflyer]

PEI, but where does hydraulic power come from when all engines have failed and the APU doesn´t run due to lack of fuel? I understand it would come from an electrical pump that would run on battery power (the only energy source left). How long would that battery last?

[dmba]

This was not a charter flight. It was a commercial flight. ANAC, the Brazilian aviation authority, did not auhtorise the team to take charter flight from Sao Paulo to Medellin. This decision caused the team to be delayed 2 hours before leaving Sao Paulo and resulted in the connection in Bolivia. The decision was not the responsibility of LaMia.

[crg28]

WRONG!

It was a Chartered Flight from BOLIVIA to COLOMBIA.

The flight from Brazil to Bolivia was commercial....but this was a different flight. ANAC didn't allow the chartered flight from Brazil to Colombia because the charter plane/company was from Bolivia and not from Brazil or Colombia. So the team flew to Bolivia first on a commercial flight....

Please stop posting bad information here.

[akaSylvia]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CycjbqYXUAAW7AL.jpg

[SeenItAll]

As noted, there have been at least two significant crashes in which FC concerns about what eventually proved to be minor electrical issues caused sufficient distraction to result in fuel exhaustion and a crash right before landing. The particular ones that I recall are a United DC8 in Portland, Oregon and a Eastern L1011 at Miami. But I am sure there are others.

[DaveReidUK]

PEI, but where does hydraulic power come from when all engines have failed and the APU doesn´t run due to lack of fuel? I understand it would come from an electrical pump that would run on battery power (the only energy source left). How long would that battery last?

Why does that matter ?

The only powered primary flight control on the 146/RJ is the rudder; elevators and ailerons are controlled via conventional servo-tabs and will function perfectly well in the absence of hydraulic power.

[PEI_3721]

eagle, # 62,
You are contemplating a situation involving failure of 4 engines or a combination of engines and the 4 independent power generating systems - no electrics, no hydraulics. Even then the battery should provide 30 min power, more with a dual option, enabling basic IFR flight; attitude, E2 compass, and pressure st by ASI and altimeter.

As DRUK explains above, flight control is not an issue.
IIRC Such a scenario was demonstrated during certification testing, ...

[aterpster]

SeenItAll:

As noted, there have been at least two significant crashes in which FC concerns about what eventually proved to be minor electrical issues caused sufficient distraction to result in fuel exhaustion and a crash right before landing. The particular ones that I recall are a United DC8 in Portland, Oregon and a Eastern L1011 at Miami. But I am sure there are others.

The Eastern flight didn't run out of fuel. The crew was distracted by a landing gear indication issue. The F/O unintentionally applied slight forward pressure on his yoke, dropping the autopilot from command to control wheel steering. They slowly descended into the swamp.

The other big out of fuel was the Avianca 707 at JFK.

[Trim Stab]

Apparently the airline's owner was flying the aircraft and is one of the fatalities.

I think that operations with aircrew who are financial stakeholders should either not be permitted or else be regulated so that the operating company has minimum cash reserves to survive a few non profitable flights. I used to fly charter aircraft in Europe in which the chief pilot was also part-owner and personally witnessed (and heard of others from colleagues) when his airmanship was outrageously compromised to save money when cash flow was difficult. On one occasion, rather than announcing a fuel emergency, he cancelled IFR to avoid a long low-level IFR approach and instead did a direct VFR approach in IMC - this was a EU/OPS charter with pax on board. On another occasion, he refused anti-ice protection on a departure in icing conditions because the cost would cause the flight to be non-profitable.

[eagleflyer]

Thanks for your input. I was not aware that on this type only the rudder depended on hydraulics. So a controlled glide towards a runway would have been technically possible. As a controller I ask myself what I could have done to help a crew in such a situation. Will transponders usually be on the emergency battery bus? Othewise I´d have to rely on primary radar, and I heard management talking about "there´s no need for this nowadays".

[birmingham]

Unfortunately it looks pretty clear this one ran out of fuel. Other than the don't speculate speculators and the wait for the enquiry bunch, does anyone think that there is a viable alternative explanation? No FOD fan distress, no fuel, no fire, no electrics, no go around, out of range. Of course there maybe a completely different explanation but this is a flyers forum folks. The 146 is not my favourite jet but its record over many years is that whatever its shortcomings it is a pretty safe beast. Fuel management must surely have had a role,

[cargun]

Can someone interpret the Flightradar data?
The cruising speed was 676 km/h.
Seems like the auotopilot is deactivated at around 2:15 UTC (manually increasing speed ? to 700km/h) long before descent, may things start to go awry here?
2:33 UTC descent starts from 9144m to 7612m, maintaining speed. Is this normal?
2:36 UTC speed starts to decline as well, dropping to 441km/h in 11 minutes (2:47).
2:42-2:47 holding starts
2:47 UTC altitude 6400m speed 441km/h
2:50 Tries to speed up to 513km/h maintaining 6400m altitude
2:55 Speed drops to 263km/h, Altitude to 4740m and vanishes off the radar.

It has been reported that the airplane declared emergency at 10pm and crashed at 10:15pm Colombian time (3:15 UTC), so flying 20 minutes at around 260km/h off the radar? The crash site's altitude is around 2500-2600m.

The crash site here is reported as 17km away from the airport. https://t.co/qPKJMab7dA, it vanishes off the radar at around approximatley 30 km away from the airport. If the reported crash time and locations are correct this means flying 13km at an average speed of 153km/h. V0 is 263km/h. V-Crash 43km/h, hence the survivors?

If there were a fuel problem why hold 13 minutes? The holding may be for dumping fuel for an emergency landing...

[alainthailande]

Are fuel gauges still alive when flying with minimal power from batteries?

[Lonewolf_50]

2:33 UTC descent starts from 9144m to 7612m, maintaining speed. Is this normal?
2:36 UTC speed starts to decline as well, dropping to 441km/h in 11 minutes (2:47).
2:42-2:47 holding starts
2:47 UTC altitude 6400m speed 441km/h
2:50 Tries to speed up to 513km/h maintaining 6400m altitude
2:55 Speed drops to 263km/h, Altitude to 4740m and vanishes off the radar.
If there were a fuel problem why hold 13 minutes? The holding may be for dumping fuel for an emergency landing... An intriguing question (why hold for 13 (or 11) minutes?) but your second question makes no sense for me. Why would they need to dump fuel for an emergency landing, given the discussion over how much fuel this aircraft can carry and how long the flight was? You don't need to be on empty/fumes to carry out an emergency landing, right?

[Flight Safety]

Perhaps someone should be looking into the flight history of this pilot/airline owner who was flying the plane, to see how much recent experience he had. It's possible that he got distracted with an electrical issue and went into a race track pattern to troubleshoot, and while doing so, forgot about the fuel situation. Sounds like he was cutting the fuel situation close anyway.

[Guy of Gisborne]

The 146/RJ can not dump fuel. If you want to reduce landing weight or fuel you have to burn it off.
Rather than looking at distance travelled, look at time airborne. On average the AC will burn 2000kgs per hour, taking into account take off, climb, cruise and descent. The AC took off at 2218z and disappeared at 0255z. That's a flight time of 4:37hrs and roughly 9000kgs of fuel burnt. The max useable fuel quantity is 9300kgs. Unless pannier tanks were added (I personally don't think this is a financially viable option for a South American operator buying a relatively cheap regional jet). This would increase useable fuel to 10300. The AC definitely declared an electrical emergency. Then continued to hold PRESUMEABLY to deal with the checklist etc. To have a electrical failure due to lack of fuel is an idiotic assumption as the immediate emergency would be the flameout of engine/s.

[TriStar_drvr]

Dump fuel? Why would you dump fuel when you are damn near out? Here's the answer. This would be humorous but for the fact that dozens of people lost their lives.

Chapecoense plane crash: 75 dead and 6 survivors after plane carrying Brazilian football team crashes in Colombia - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/live-chapecoense-plane-crash-colombia-9355318)

[neila83]

People PLEASE stop talking about dumping fuel. Pilots only dump fuel when above maximum landing weight, generally if there is a problem near the start of the flight! Not at the end of a flight near the edge of the plane's endurance. Even them, in a severe emergency pilots will just get it down and land above max weight. Narrow bodies dont generally even have fuel dump capability.

To add some local info (I live in Medellin) the weather last night was fairly vile and has been in general for a good couple of months, the wet season has been very strong, and long, this year.

If they (speculation) genuinely did take it to the limit with fuel planning that would have been extremely risky as you could easily be down an alley with nowhere to go if weather conditions weren't favourable. Colombian domestics carry a lot of reserve for holding and enough to get back to origin at this time of year - quite interesting watching on FR24 when the weather is bad in Bogota. You cannot rely on getting into your destination.

It hasn't been collaborated but someone on the 'other' forum mentioned that a vivacolombia flight called an emergency after attempting takeoff just before this one was due to land. If true that could explain having to hold with a bad fuel situation...not a good place to be.

[klintE]

Is it possible that range was miscalculated?
I mean average passenger weight is possibly estimated on many types: men, women, kids etcetera.
But here we have the group only well built men so...
(And it really happend earlier; but can't help where and when it was)

[Guy of Gisborne]

All that have flown RJ/146s (inc me) will tell you that fuel CANNOT be dumped from this AC.

[neila83]

Just to add..that final ground speed of 142 knots is VERY low considering the altitude it was at...

[plhought]

A lot of technical mis-understanding about this airframe so i'll try and summarize some technical tidbits here. Apologies if it appears hap-hazard - just going back through the thread.

- No fuel dumping provisions in the 146/RJ

- Fuel Qty indication is availible with only battery power. Infact, there's a momentary Fuel Qty pushbutton above the Engine Insturments that lets you check qty with battery off. It's a digital display on the bottom of the EIS.

- Pannier tanks can be installed and removed regardless if aircraft was delivered from factory with/without them. I suspect this one did not have any installed though, as it's a relatively big job and usually the entire (relatively small) operator community will get wind of someone looking for pannier tanks parts.

- Pannier(or auxillary) tanks are considered part of the wing tanks and thier qty indication is combined with wing tanks if installed. Also an annunciation if they are not empty on the overhead panel. Pannier tanks will feed into thier respective wing tanks.

- I highly doubt any of the belly aux tanks were installed in this aircraft. They are very rare and the only outfit that I know that uses them consistenly nowadays is the FAAM aircraft. Home (http://www.faam.ac.uk/)

- Redundancy is king on this aircraft (it is British...). As detailed above a bit, electrical power is primarily derived from two 115/200 VAC generators on engines 1 and 4. The APU also drives an identical generator without the CSD. Each single AC generator is capable of completely powering the aircraft. In the Avro RJ, bus switching in the event of a generator failure is automatic (provided panel is configured correctly). There is no paralled AC buses in this aircraft. DC power is provided through two (optional third) Transformer Rectifier Units. 26VAC power through transformers for some avionics.

- Essential and Emergency (different buses on this aircraft) AC & DC power can be provided from: Battery (in conjunction with static inverter), and/or a hydraulically powered standby generator (Powered off green system - requires #3 engine-driven-hydraulic pump functioning. Isolates Green system)

- With emergency DC (battery) and AC (static inverter) only:
- Standby Horizon
- #1 VOR/ILS
- #1 COM
- #1 XPNDR
- Standby ASI and Altimeter (straight old pitot/static insturments - no DC draw)
- *I think* L/H landing light
- Pilot's Windshield wiper
- Yellow system DC pump (used to help extend yellow emergency extension jack on main gear, and pump up brake accumulator)
- Anti-skid (Anti-Skid sys. switch has to be placed in BATT position)
- EIS N2 indication
- EIS EGT indication
- FADEC continues to function (if engines are) through PMA's on the FADEC/HMU units on engines.

With Essential AC & DC (from Green system hydraulic stand-by generator)
- couple more engine indications
- More avionics
- normal cockpit lighting
- Battery is isolated w/ standby generator operating.

- Fuel system is a mix of complexity and simplicity.
https://s14.postimg.org/x1jxxj66p/BAe146_RJFuel_Sys.jpg

Anhedral wings will make fuel in the wing tanks go outboard through gravity. Gravity & jet transfer pumps flow fuel from wing tanks to Inboard and Outboard feed tanks in each wing. Inboard for #2/3 engine - Outboard for #1/4. AC pumps in each feed tank provide jet-transfer pump pressure and pressure fuel to engines. Engines will suction-feed fine from feed-tanks though as well.
Center-tank fuel will flow into wing tanks. Floats in each feed tank will annuciate a low fuel condition if any tank is less than full (~600 lbs each).

- In the event of an AC electrical failure, standby hydraulically driven fuel pumps can provide fuel pressure.

- Primary flight controls with exception of rudder are completely manual with flying/servo tabs.
- Loss of yellow hydraulics means no roll spoilers, and some ground spoilers
- Loss of green means no speed-brake, other ground spoilers, and primary gear extension.
- Flaps can run half-speed off a single (yellow or green) hydraulic system.
- Alternate gear extention is gravity, with an emergency-yellow assister-jack for the main gear that may be powered from Yellow DC pump.

It is typical operator method to have APU running below 10,000 ft, providing bleed air for AC packs and pressurization. Frees up bleed air from the anemic engines (LF507). The APU Gen switch will usually be left on, although it will not be on either bus. In event of Gen failure with APU Gen on, APU gen will power the failed bus. APU running does jump into your fuel usage a bit though too...

Having said all this.....this redundancy is very suspect when you have no fuel....

[Alas para Volar]

I hazard a prediction that the root cause is PIC is owner of the airline. Commercial / status / prestige imperative. Pushing the range envelope. Not enough fuel. No reserve / contingency. Entirely avoidable accident. RIP.

[Tu.114]

Plhought, thank You a lot for the technical explanation.

[ZeBedie]

I hazard a prediction that the root cause is PIC is owner of the airline.

Yes, the same thought occurred to me, though I hope we're not doing a (probably) deceased colleague an injustice.

[brak]

comissario - flight attendant

[grizzled]

Thanks brak

[ETOPS]

If a jet engine is starved of fuel, because the fuel tank is nearly empty, then it can flame out and begin to run down. A first symptom of this is the associated electrical generator dropping off line as insufficient rpm is being produced at the accessory drive to keep it producing electrical power.

Thus the electrical problems reported by the crew may not be a cause of the crash but a symptom of the problem of lack of fuel.......

[WhiteH2O]

My thoughts exactly ETOPS #89

I'm guessing that a not very proficient pilot was more worried about the electrical failure than flying the airplane and flew (well, gliding due to fuel starvation) into terrain. He should have had enough altitude and avionics to glide the ILS into the airport. It would be difficult (from a human standpoint) to ignore all the failures going on all around you, and fly the airplane on the ILS to the airport.

[FE Hoppy]

They will have got a feed tank low annunciation well before the engine flamed out. The book says something like 26 minutes.

[tdracer]

FE, valid point, but there have been a number of incidents where one or more engines flame out and the crew starts troubleshooting the electrical system without realizing the engine(s) quit.
We had one incident on a 767 where both engines quit during descent (ice crystal icing), then re-lit a minute or so later. Pilot squawk was 'temporary loss of electrical power' - we didn't know the engines had quit until we looked at the FDR.

[FE Hoppy]

FE, valid point, but there have been a number of incidents where one or more engines flame out and the crew starts troubleshooting the electrical system without realizing the engine(s) quit.
We had one incident on a 767 where both engines quit during descent (ice crystal icing), then re-lit a minute or so later. Pilot squawk was 'temporary loss of electrical power' - we didn't know the engines had quit until we looked at the FDR.
Yes but it's not the same as troubleshooting a low fuel warning.
I'm wondering if the VivaColombia Maday is the reason the went in the hold and they tried to squeeze the fuel too much.

Has anyone confirmed the VivaColombia Mayday yet?

[neila83]

Yes but it's not the same as troubleshooting a low fuel warning.
I'm wondering if the VivaColombia Maday is the reason the went in the hold and they tried to squeeze the fuel too much.

Has anyone confirmed the VivaColombia Mayday yet?
Just checked the FR24 playback, it seems it was actually a Viva Colombia flight Bogota - San Andres that diverted to Medellin. And on the playback it does appear the crash flight went into a hold to let them in...could be an absolutely tragic coincidence that the Viva flight arrived just as they did.

But of course if they didn't have enough fuel for 2 cicuits in the hold at their destination...

[WhiteH2O]

Here's a thought: why were they at 20k' in the holding pattern? I'm sure ATC or CVR will answer this, but the MSA around there is ~13,000'. I've never flown in S. America, but would it be standard to bring them in that high and have them descend in the hold? Especially if they knew they had a fuel situation, they should have been brought in lower to intercept the ILS. Are they far enough away from major ATC (radar area) that they would have been cleared to descend in the hold and then shoot the approach? Or would they have kept them that high to let them troubleshoot prior to shooting the approach? If they were troubleshooting in a hold at 20,000', they would have known they had a major issue prior to being assigned a hold at that altitude.

[surplus1]

The distance between the departure point and the destination appears to be on the very edge of, if not outside of the flight envelope and that does not include any fuel for an alternate or reserve. It appears to me they pushed this flight to the absolute extremes of range, with no plan B. Why didn't they report the critical fuel state? Simple, IFR with no alternate and no reserve fuel will get the authorities attention. Nobody wants to deal with that.

I don't know what really happened and I don't want to be critical without cause but this doesn't look good. The same aircraft apparently made the same trip (in the opposite direction) earlier in the month. Recorded flt time was 4:33 hrs/min. This flight appears to have ended at 4:40 hrs/min. Looks like a fuel stop at Bogota would have been more than prudent [There goes the profit margin]. Pressure from the company? Who knows, but pilots just don't do that sort of thing without a reason.

So much for my .02 cents worth of speculation, for which I am sorry. We'll have to wait and see but it should not take too long to determine if those engines were running at impact or not. I grieve for everyone, especially the pilots. Fate is the Hunter.

[The Ancient Geek]

If full tanks buys you 1600nm with reserves in a nice factory fresh RJ85 how far will you get many years later by the time it has filtered down to a 3rd world bottom feeding charter operation and the engines are more than a tad tired ?

[Willoz269]

What is known today is that the aircraft appears to have planned to make the flight using up its reserves of fuel.
On descent to Medellin, an A320 from Panama declared a fuel emergency due to a fuel leak and all traffic was vectored or put on holding patterns to give the A320 priority.
The RJ never declared an emergency until its last circuit when it said it had an electric failure, left the hold and tracked direct for the field and crashed shortly after.
The 3rd "crew" person was a private pilot, normally a flight attendant, daughter of a well known journalist in Bolivia and also a part time model, but not rated on the aircraft.

[DaveReidUK]

The distance between the departure point and the destination appears to be on the very edge of, if not outside of the flight envelope and that does not include any fuel for an alternate or reserve.

You mean it's outside the aircraft's payload-range capability.

Nothing to do with the flight envelope.

[Mudman]

Picture of one of the engines. (source: www.flightglobal.com (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures-uk-investigators-deployed-to-colombia-avro-431919/))


https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=68991

[Contact Approach]

I'm no expert but that looks as though it was still running...

[jack11111]

Maybe running, maybe windmilling.

[Willoz269]

That engine wasn't running, there is minimal damage to the blades.

[megan]

Aviation International NewsBolivian BAe 146 Crashes in Colombia, At Least 75 Dead

Rescue crews found six survivors of the Monday night crash of a BAe 146 aircraft operated by Bolivian charter company LaMia on a flight between Santa Cruz, Bolivia, and Medellin, Colombia. Carrying 81 passengers and crewmembers, including members of Brazil’s Chapecoense soccer team, Flight LMI-2966 circled José María Córdova International Airport outside Medellin several times before descending into an area some 50 miles southeast of its intended destination, near the municipality of La Union. Before losing contact with radar at around 10 p.m., the pilots asked for priority landing and reported an electrical problem, according to local reports out of Medellin.

Apart from the team members, three of which authorities said were among the survivors, the passengers included at least 21 journalists, all but one of which died.

Chapecoense flew to Medellin to play that city’s Atletico Nacional in the finals of the Copa Sudamericana on Wednesday.

[ULMFlyer]

According to an interview with Gen. Gustavo Vargas, managing director of LaMia, the plan was to stop and refuel in Cobija, Bolivia, and then fly to Medellin. But they decided instead to fly direct to Bogota for the stop. For some reason, they carried on to Medellin.

Director de la aerolínea LaMia habla sobre accidente de Chapecoense - Justicia - ELTIEMPO.COM (http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/justicia/accidente-de-chapecoense-entrevista-al-director-de-la-aerolinea-lamia/16761870)

[Willoz269]

Just heard from the pilot of Avianca 9256, they were in the holding pattern with LAMIA RJ85....they were waiting for Viva Colombia A320 to land as they declared emergency due to a fuel leak.
Avianca 9256 was at 19,000ft and the LAMIA Rj85 was ABOVE them.....as the Viva Colombia A320 was landing, the LAMIA RJ85 requested immediate tracking to the field as they had a "fuel problem" but did NOT delcare an emergency...the controller stated they could not track direct as there was an Airbus on final approach with a fuel emergency.....

The RJ85 replied that they were tracking direct and descending, and THEN declared an emergency.....the controller told Avianca 9256 to turn left immediately as the RJ85 had started descent without authorisation... and the Avianca aircraft saw the RJ85 descend rapidly from above them, seeing clearly its lights and watched it on TCAS...it was a very steep descent...

Moments later, the controller gave them instructions for direct tracking and the LAMIA RJ85 stated they had a "total electrical failure"....the pilot was quite agitated and started requesting vectors direct to the field.

The controller stated they were no longer visible on radar and could not vector them....the pilot of LAMIA kept repeating "Help, request direct vectors" again and again...on the radio you could also hear the other pilot asking "gear, gear down"...the controller saw them for a moment and advised they were at 9,000ft at 8nm....the crew kept repeating "help, request vectors" and the transmission ceased.

[Airbubba]

Just heard from the pilot of Avianca 9256, they were in the holding pattern with LAMIA RJ85....they were waiting for Viva Colombia A320 to land as they declared emergency due to a fuel leak.
Avianca 9256 was at 19,000ft and the LAMIA Rj85 was ABOVE them.....

Do you mean Avianca 9356? AV9356 was an A318 operating BOG-MDE with an ETA of 0304Z, a few minutes after CP2933 contact was lost on the Flightradar24 link posted earlier.

CP2933 was in holding at FL210 before starting a rapid descent at about 0253Z according to the FR24 playback, usual caveats with this data source.

The RJ85 replied that they were tracking direct and descending, and THEN declared an emergency.....the controller told Avianca 9256 to turn left immediately as the RJ85 had started descent without authorisation...

This turn was cited in an earlier post about a video posted by a UK newspaper but the post and the link to the news video were deleted.

[Self Loading Freight]

Thinking back to the Gimli Glider, it 'vanished from radar' when the transponder stopped due to loss of electrical power. but ATC managed to reacquire it on primary radar as a straight reflected return. That was a long time ago, so no idea how this works with current systems installed on the a/c and at ATC, but it could explain some aspects.

[EstorilM]

Long-time lurker, registered earlier to post about the Avianca emergency flight which caused the hold of this aircraft - but by the time I got home it had already been mentioned.

Of the numerous watershed moments in aviation history which ALL remind me of (what appear to be) issues relating to this crash, one of the largest is Avianca Flight 52 - the 707 crash back in 1990 due to fuel starvation in a hold. I know there are many practical differences, but it's interesting that they failed to (clearly) state a fuel emergency, resulting in starvation and eventual crash. Of course that flight had PLENTY of adequate reserve / alternate fuel unlike (presumably) this accident flight. There was also no wrong-doing by the airline, which followed fuel and route / aircraft load and range guidelines. Just poor communication on everyone's part.

What's even more strange about Avianca 52 (other than being the same carrier as the Airbus which caused the hold of the accident aircraft and that both had fuel emergency issues) is that it flew to JFK via Medellín. :uhoh:

In any event, I'd expect the lawyers of said "charter" company to be gearing up for many long nights.

The range issue and equipment selection is rather shocking - especially given that the flight ops manager guy has since gone on record saying it was planned to stop for fuel in Bolivia, yet the exact aircraft type has flown the same route non-stop before for them?! Even more shocking is that the previous flights were only a few minutes shorter in total flight time. This seems to have been totally inevitable - and as is the case with most crashes, the event requires the addition of some other totally unforseen issue to push things over the edge. The fluke fuel leak / emergency of the Avianca diversion to Medellín seems to be the 'ignition source' for a disaster which was waiting to happen.

[surplus1]

Originally posted by Willoz269 You mean it's outside the aircraft's payload-range capability.

Nothing to do with the flight envelope.

Indeed, sir. You are quite correct.

Thank you for pickin my nits. :D

[evansb]

If all four engines were flamed out, what system does the emergency Ram Air Turbine (RAT) support?

[Willoz269]

Quote:
Originally posted by Willoz269 You mean it's outside the aircraft's payload-range capability.

Nothing to do with the flight envelope.
Indeed, sir. You are quite correct.

Thank you for pickin my nits.

If I can pick your nits, I didn't pick at anything before...you got the wrong person

[ironbutt57]

No R.A.T installed....

[azure70]

At least one occurrence of high-altitude engine rollback in icing conditions causing loss of electrical power on a Bae146.



https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1992/AAIR/pdf/aair199200286_001.pdf

[Passenger 389]

Post #10 stated: BBC World Service reporting that the aircraft had declared a fuel emergency. Starting with Post #13, however, the discussion switched to assuming they'd reported only an electrical failure, not a fuel problem, because the airport statement mentioned only an electrical failure.

The discussion continued on that assumption for pages (though recognizing the RJ85 likely was very low on fuel, wondering if that caused the electrical failure reported -- and speculating why they didn't report being low on fuel.)

Recently, post # 107 (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/587574-colombian-jet-72-board-goes-down-its-way-medellin-6.html#post9593813) said the Avianca pilot heard the LAMIA RJ85 tell ATC it had a "fuel problem" and requested immediate tracking (but did not declare a fuel emergency).


As it happens, I had just been reviewing early reports from 360 Radio Columbia's twitter feed.

Early on, that twitter feed was saying the plane reported being low on fuel minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Perhaps the radio station --or its source-- confused (or conflated) transmissions by the LAMIA RJ85 and the Viva Columbia A320, but it may offer some corroboration of the Avianca pilot's report that at some point the LAMIA RJ85 eventually did tell ATC it was low on fuel:

(Google translation into english, sorted by older tweets at the top):

360 Radio Colombia @ 360RadioCo · 23 hours ago
#Sports | Plane crashed carrying Chapecoense in La Unión

360 Radio Colombia @ 360RadioCo · 23 hours ago
# Attention | Apparently plane reported little fuel load minutes before disappearing from Rionegro airport radars.

360 Radio Colombia @ 360RadioCo · 23 hours ago
# Attention | First reports indicate that plane disappeared more than an hour ago, emergency units already make presence in place.

José María Córdova @AeropuertoMDE · 23h23 hours ago  Rionegro, Colombia
Confirmed, the aircraft with registration CP2933 * transported the team @ChapecoenseReal. Apparently there are survivors.
88 replies 3,295 retweets 1,689 likes

360 Radio Colombia @ 360RadioCo · 23 hours ago
# Attention | Chapecoense's plane reported an emergency for low fuel, was given priority at the airport but failed to arrive.

[archae86]

CNN has posted a link to a twitter posting (https://twitter.com/AerocivilCol/status/803680399893393408/photo/1) bearing an Aeronautica Civil imprint which includes this image:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cyc_DX4W8AEz_aS.jpg
Of the many images I have seen of recorders recovered from crashes, these seem among the least damaged.

[WHBM]

Possibly the trail starts well before the flight, with its commercial arrangements. We can presume the football team had little or no experience of Due Diligence on the carrier selected. Were they chosen on the basis of being the bottom bidder ? There's not a lot of medium-haul jet charter capacity available in South America, what there is mainly comprises A320/737 from the mainstream operators, doubtless at a higher rate.

The accident reminds me of the Zambian national football team accident in 1993 when they were being taken right across Africa to Dakar in nothing more than an air force DHC-5, which required three fuel stops on the way, and was lost at one of these intermediate points.

[cooperplace]

Possibly the trail starts well before the flight, with its commercial arrangements. We can presume the football team had little or no experience of Due Diligence on the carrier selected. Were they chosen on the basis of being the bottom bidder ? There's not a lot of medium-haul jet charter capacity available in South America, what there is mainly comprises A320/737 from the mainstream operators, doubtless at a higher rate.

The accident reminds me of the Zambian national football team accident in 1993 when they were being taken right across Africa to Dakar in nothing more than an air force DHC-5, which required three fuel stops on the way, and was lost at one of these intermediate points.

what are the similarities, apart from a football team on board, if I may ask?

[evansb]

http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii58/keithnewsome/keithnewsome018/DSC_2687.jpg

[fatespilot]

I wrote this for my friends who like to pick my brain (7,000hr ATP) when a major crash happens. Total electrical failure at night over the mountains is up there with dual flameout in a blizzard for nightmare scenarios. In the following, I assumed that LaMia lost or couldn't find the ILS when the gens dropped offline.

####

Medellin is one the worst places in the world to have a major electrical problem. If they lost the panel (flight instruments, lighting and generators) they'd only have a junky little magnetic compass for direction, airspeed, and altimeter. One of them would have to hold a flashlight and go back/forth between heading and the altimeter. I did this during captain upgrade and it's crazy difficult in a familiar setting with a flat airport at sea level. They'd also have to guess at the power settings based on their speed and pitch (nose high/low). The next step would be to get a radar vector to RNG @ 9.5 miles south of the airport and have ATC (air traffic control) tell them when they were over the VOR (radio station). This assumes their backup battery is fully charged and they have one good radio. No comms is death.

Then they'd have to use the PoS compass to fly outbound from RNG down to 11,000 ft. and make a turn back to the VOR. Then cross it and pray they are directly over the station. This is WW II style of navigation, which killed thousands in bad weather. Modern radar from ATC is not terribly precise for this maneuver either, even 75 years after it was invented. The U.S. has the good stuff (precision approach radar) but only on certain military bases. I got to practice with it once flying into Yuma, but it's a rare ATC service. The life saver with the PAR technology is that it's like looking down a gun barrel at the airplane. They can give detailed course corrections, like turn left 2 degrees, descend 50 ft., etc.

Back to the Lamia flight deck, now they have to manage a 750 fpm descent while doing the flashlight dance and a ton of mental processing is spent trying to correct speed/power while flying blind. Then they have to pray they shot the gap between the two hills at 8,100 ft. heading north to the airport. The backup compass bounces, esp. in bad weather and it's hard to hold a heading within 5 degrees, and easy to be off course. There was no wind on the surface, but all planes drift and there is roughly a 3 mile buffer each side of the approach center line. It's easy to drift several miles off course and ATC would have trouble seeing it and warning the pilots, if at all. The news stated ATC lost radar contact when the plane was at 15,000 ft.

This would be a stressful approach under normal conditions (with an autopilot which they probably lost) and worse late at night after a long flight in weather. I have to test this scenario on my PC sim and see if I can make it to 223 ft. above the airport without crashing on the first try. There was a cloud layer 1,500 ft. above the surface, which would make the airport impossible to see and require a full instrument approach. From the crash photos, it looks like they clipped a ridge then slid into a ravine and stopped halfway up the next hill. It's an old school, sturdy, British design which is probably why there are survivors. Lastly, there was financial stress on the company being out of Venezuela, so I'm curious about their maintenance history. The BAC 147 is a notorious hangar queen and hard to maintain.

[alainthailande]

This picture seems to be from the beginning of the company in Venezuela.
Now they're Bolivia-based and have another web site : INICIO - Lamia (http://www.lamiacorp.com)
Quite surprisingly, the said web site has absolutely no mention of the accident.

[WHBM]

what are the similarities, apart from a football team on board, if I may ask?A charter aircraft which seems more than a little inappropriate for the length of the flight, potentially selected on a basis of cheapness.

[fox niner]

So if you run out of fuel, the engines will quit! Wow. There is a surprise in every accident.
If this is the (basic) summary of this whole affair, that would certainly warrant a criminal investigation.
Especially if you consider the fact they did this route before without refuelling.

[Tu.114]

Just one question with regards to flight planning on the Avro.

On many types, it is possible to plan a flight with different cost indices in order to minimize either flight time or fuel consumption. Would it be possible, practical or even required on the RJ85 to plan such a long flight at C/I 0 instead of possibly more typical higher values? If so, what would be the difference in fuel burn on such a route?

[AerocatS2A]

I once refused to accept a 146 that had been fuelled to full tanks (9362kgs I seem to remember), because the gauges said it had an impossible 10500kgs on board ... on the basis that if it over read by more than a tonne at full fuel, if it did the same at lower fuel states, it could lead to a nasty situation.
There aren't a lot of flight planning options for the 146 series.

In nil wind and ISA conditions, performance manual figures for 1620 NM at FL300 is:

8650 kg @ M0.70 and 8270 kg @ long range cruise (235 KIAS)

Start up / taxi and approach fuel has to be added, probably another 350 kg or so.

What were the enroute wind conditions? A good tailwind could make it doable depending on the reserve requirements.

[Livesinafield]

I assume that 1620nm is total range before tanks empty? So for example In still air you could not fly a trip length of 1650 miles because of the need for reserve and alternate fuel ? Medelin doesn't satisfy the requirements to have no alternates so there must have been one... fuel has played some part In this for sure

[AerocatS2A]

1650 NM would leave a little in the tanks. Not enough for normal reserves though.

[Goat Whisperer]

If the great circle distance was 1605nm they sure as **** flew more.

[16024]

Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi
I once refused to accept a 146 that had been fuelled to full tanks (9362kgs I seem to remember), because the gauges said it had an impossible 10500kgs on board ... on the basis that if it over read by more than a tonne at full fuel, if it did the same at lower fuel states, it could lead to a nasty situation.

Joe, not trying to be funny, but.
There are two occasions when you absolutely know how much is in the tanks. One of those is when they are full. If you have fuel flow and fuel used indicators I'd say you are good to go. If the 146 MEL forbids that, that's one thing. Boeing says crack on.
I bet there were some tense exchanges of words among the engineers, either before or after you went...

[Magplug]

Magplug: I just tried to buy a ticket online from Santa-Cruz (VVI) to Medellin (MDE). A couple of search sites tell me there are no direct flights, you can only go via Panama or Bogata with Copa/Avianca.
I just tried to buy a ticket online from Inverness to Ghent and there are no direct flights. What's your point?

@Del Prado... As any aviation professional will tell you... A scheduled route must undergo a regulator's licensing process with a route proving flight to demonstrate the suitability of the aircraft, crew and all support facilities before the licence is granted. An ad-hoc charter will NOT have been subject to this oversight.

Magplug: Time to start arresting Lamia executives for questioning as to why this charter was planned.... Greed? Football cudos? The aircraft has a Bolivian registration... Which government Flight Ops inspector had oversight of this company... add him to the list for questioning!

And why do you want to start arresting people before anything is known?
@Del Prado... You clearly have never operated outside the comfort of the civilised world. Outside Western Europe and N.America it is usual practice to throw anyone left standing after a crash into jail.... and then start asking questions afterwards. Local officials are far more mindful of public opinion than they are respectful of due process.

I hazard a prediction that the root cause is PIC is owner of the airline. Commercial / status / prestige imperative. Pushing the range envelope. Not enough fuel. No reserve / contingency. Entirely avoidable accident. RIP. I'd go with that 100%

The 3rd "crew" person was a private pilot, normally a flight attendant, daughter of a well known journalist in Bolivia and also a part time model, but not rated on the aircraft. Jeeez... More distractions... this just gets worse & worse.

...they were waiting for Viva Colombia A320 to land as they [had] declared emergency due to a fuel leakIf the LAMIA thought he could 'just make it with the fuel' this may well have sealed their fate. Anyone flying this close to fuel margins has no place in our business.

[Keep attacking 68]

For what it is worth, a no explosion on impact, the 146, a relatively safe machine, ran out of fuel, or faulty fuel gauges (as with Alidair Viscount 700, in 1979) showing incorrect readings?? - witnesses saw it pass overhead with no engines turning ? maybe they cut it too fine circling around ? so sad. Having worked for VARIG, I know how this will affect Brazilian Football, and globally, so very sad R.I.P to all young and old lives lost in a preventable accident.

[AerocatS2A]

MEL only allows one u/s flight deck wing tank gauge. If both gauges were obviously over reading then I don't think you could apply the MEL. If it was just one, then MEL the affected gauge and you are good to go, technically.

[chadavman]

I once refused to accept a 146 that had been fuelled to full tanks (9362kgs I seem to remember), because the gauges said it had an impossible 10500kgs on board ... on the basis that if it over read by more than a tonne at full fuel, if it did the same at lower fuel states, it could lead to a nasty situation.
Are you sure it didn't have pannier tanks which would have taken the capacity up to 10,298kgs?

[H Peacock]

All very tragic.

I understand the accident will be the lead item on today's Jeremy Vine show at noon on Radio 2. I wonder what 'experts' they'll wheel out to add their theories?

[Flyguy2006]

Just a thought, it has been mentioned that 4 people didn't travel hence the difference in quoted POB originally. Is it possible that these weren't allowed to board due to weight/endurance limitations? Hence they already knew they were flying close to limitations of the Aircrafts range?

[cats_five]

One of them didn't travel as he had forgotten his passport:

Son of Chapecoense coach missed Colombia flight because he forgot his passport | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/chapecoense-flight-colombia-coach-matheus-saroli-luiz-carlos-saroli-caio-junior-brazil-medellin-a7446941.html)

[elche]

The airline is the airline of choice for South American football clubs.

I found this article rather interesting regarding the airlines misterious past.

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2016/11/29/chavismo-corruption-dark-past-lamia-airlines/amp/?client=ms-android-optus-au

[efatnas]

Owner and PIC; LAMIA is a play on words in Spanish with several meanings some very naughty and yes, the 146 needs a lot of juice especially in low holding patterns and such.

[plhought]

At least one occurrence of high-altitude engine rollback in icing conditions causing loss of electrical power on a Bae146.



https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1992/AAIR/pdf/aair199200286_001.pdf
This problem is not apparent on the LF507 with the heated supercharger inlet vanes and few other things. That incident was ages ago on pre-mod ALF502's

[patowalker]

The Viva Colombia flight from Bogota to San Andres diverted to Medellin due to 'an indication in the cabin' (warning?) that caused the captain to decide to make a precautionary landing in Medellin. "It is important to clarify that the aircraft did not declare an emergency and followed all the procedures authorised, approved and indicated by the control tower"

Rionegro, noviembre 29 de 2016. En la noche de ayer, 28 de noviembre de 2016, el vuelo FC8170 que cubría la ruta Bogotá-San Andrés, despegó del aeropuerto El Dorado a las 8:27 de la noche y se desvió al Aeropuerto José María Córdova de Rionegro por una indicación en cabina que causó que el Capitán de la aeronave, como medida preventiva, tomara la decisión de aterrizar en Rionegro. Es importante aclarar que la aeronave no se declaró en emergencia y se llevaron a cabo los procedimientos autorizados, aprobados e indicados por la torre de control

I have not seen this mentioned above: The football club had chartered LAMIA to fly them directly from Brasil to Medellin, but the Brazilian CAA prohibited the flight, because the rules require that charter flights are done by companies registered in either the country of departure or arrival. So the team flew to Santa Cruz in Bolivia by scheduled airliner and boarded the Bolivian charter there.

[Flyguy2006]

Here is a link to the report from the Avianca pilot regarding the supposed ATC conversations. It is in Spanish so I'm unable to translate it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xomwSg4UCsc

[averow]

Alas,

You bring up a very salient point. PIC may have indeed felt pressure to do the charter, and pride or hubris led to bad decisions. I believe similar pressures ultimately led to the crash of a plane-load of Polish VIPs on their way to a ceremony in Russia a few years back.

[EstorilM]

evansb - there is no RAT installed on the aircraft.

From what I understand, once the generators (engines #1 and #4) are lost, there is significant loss of electrical power in the aircraft.

It is equipped with hydraulic generators, but obviously that entails the operation of #2 & #3.

Didn't someone post a fuel diagram for the aircraft? I'm curious if the fuel / lifter pumps feed multiple engines, or if it's possible that they'd lose one engine first, then the others later.

If all were lost in the span of a minute or so, you'd revert straight to essential power (skip right over "emergency" power or whatever the backup hyd. generator level of power is called).

Battery = very few instruments. At night in IMC, AND in mountainous terrain, that is NOT an approach I'd want to fly blind.

The (apparent) series of events, with the crew calling out "we have a fuel PROBLEM" and requesting immediate vectors, followed almost immediately by the crew saying they have "an electrical failure" seems just... too much to ignore.

This is all speculation of course, for conversation sake - so I realize that, I'm just running through potential ideas that check all the boxes we see here.

The lack of rotational engine damage, lack of post-crash fire, ATC comm of "fuel problem" and the lack of any alternate / reserve fuel capacity based on the range and performance data for the flight/equipment, is a significant amount of information considering it only being a couple days post crash.


Just for the sake of argument here - if an aircraft were to run dry, with almost immediate loss of all but critical flight instruments (already a scenario for which a small charter company almost CERTAINLY doesn't train pilots for, considering it's almost unheard of at higher levels as well) what would be the odds of a crew being able to handle those failures, and maintain control (with almost dark cockpit) in IMC at night, then also continue to a successful approach in difficult terrain?
Just seems like once they lost the engines (in said hypothetical situation) it was all over - almost regardless of skill level.

Wasn't it mentioned above that ATC was unable to provide vectors as well, at the end / lower altitudes at least? With nothing but a compass and base instruments.. no thanks. :(

What's the deal with this crew running the charts and paperwork and skipping right over the reserves / alternate and just saying "ehh, 'f it" - how much pressure do you think the company had on these guys?

From wiki, it seems that was the ONLY active aircraft they operated - the other 3 RJ's are in storage / retired, and their only ATR is in operation with another company.

[Smott999]

So does it seem the Pic as owner, flew knowingly right to the limits of fuel reserve (I presume this to be illegal) after cancelling a scheduled fuel stop?

Would he be motivated to do that to save money? For ex) if cost of fuel stop was built into the charter price?

Especially if he'd managed the trip successfully a couple of prior times?

[birmingham]

What is clear and doesn't need the results of any investigation is if somebody applied for approval to operate that route as a scheduled airline using an RJ85 there would only be two potential outcomes ... 1. Turned down flat 2. Approved but with such onerous operational restrictions (or expensive mods to fit extra tanks etc) that it would be commercially unworkable.

[patowalker]

So does it seem the Pic as owner, flew knowingly right to the limits of fuel reserve (I presume this to be illegal) after cancelling a scheduled fuel stop?

Where does this 'cancelled fuel stop' story come from? I see no mention of it in the Colombian press.

[35hPA28]

Where does this 'cancelled fuel stop' story come from? I see no mention of it in the Colombian press.
Posibles causas del accidente del avión del Chapecoense - Justicia - ELTIEMPO.COM (http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/justicia/posibles-causas-del-accidente-del-avion-del-chapecoense/16762144)

[Smott999]

You'd think the flight plan straight to Medellin might not be accepted by the AC flight computer? Perhaps RJ experts would know.
Though if he filed a plan through Bogota I suppose all would be ok?

[RAT 5]

Just a question, not an assertion at anything. I wonder what the flight currency was of the owner, both a/c & sim. I've flown for major EU airlines where the CP was so busy he didn't fly and even lost his LPC. He then renewed it and went to Seattle to collect the 1st of a new variant and ferry it back. In other airlines the office jocks would do a short out/back once a month to keep current and be in the office mid-morning. It would not be the the first time a prestigious charter popped up and someone hi-up pulled rank to operate it. If everything goes fine it's fine; if the a/c starts to play up technically, or if mother nature + ATC throws a spanner in the works, lack of familiarity can be a factor in decision making, or lack of.
Just a question to those who know.

[ungoliat]

Hi
Sorry my poor english, but there is a summarized translation for the copilot of AVA9256, that its on the same frecuency of the plane crashed.
-Look, the thing was...When we are on approach, the tower send us on hold pattern with fl210, because other plane has declared emergency (fuel leak), when we reach a fl, the tower send us for 190, at this time, the RJ 85 its above on us, on holding pattern to.
-Suddenly the crew of RJ tell to the flight controller (a lady): "...Flight **** requesting priority to land, we have fuel issues, requesting priority to localizer..."

- At this time my commander tell me: ".. if he was out of fuel, why no declare an emergency?.." At this moment the RJ pilot dont declare any emergency.

-The flight controller inform to RJ pilot, that was a other plane on emergency land on progress.

- The RJ Pilot tell again to flight controller "Fuel issues" and begin to descend almost immediately, whithout any clearance from the tower.

-We saw the other plane descend at our left at high speed, at this moment the flight controller gave us vectors to make distance for the RJ.

-While RJ descends the pilot declare an Emergency , because of fuel. Begin to scream " Mayday Mayday requesting vectors for localizer" The FC gave vectors and ask the RJ the type of emergency, the crew responds " Now we have full electrical failure, vectors to find the runaway" .

The the FC say: "No contact radar".

The RJ answer "Help us , vectors to runaway please... (desesperate voice of crew)",
At the same time we hear the commander Screaming ".. landing gear down ...", Help us , vectors to runaway please... (desesperate voice of crew)"

We are on silent, a few seconds later the FC tells to RJ : " You are on Radial 180 from the RNW with 9000´ and 8 miles" .
This is the place of VOR i remember ...pushing for then and say to myself GO Go Go...
And they are on VOR Whith 9000´... They are going to crash ...on radio still the RJ : "Help us , vectors to runaway please... (desesperate voice of crew)"...
After this.. Silent...
-* The FC continue to call the RJ whitout answer and we start to cry... and continue flight and land...

- All the time tower continue to call the RJ whitout answer and we heared the crash... on the radio com....



Soory again for my english.

The plane struck a mountain at no more than 200 mts for the VOR ...

[Magplug]

If CP-2933 had originally filed for a Bogota fuel+go and then re-filed in flight for Medallin then we would have heard about it by now. He may have used Bogota as as an en-route alternate in order to reduce his contingency fuel on a single flight plan but it is so close to destination as to be of no saving.... In any case that presumes they adhered to some sort of fuel policy... which looks rather unlikely!

From elche's link above LaMia Airlines (https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2016/11/29/chavismo-corruption-dark-past-lamia-airlines/amp/?client=ms-android-optus-au) the Panama Post alleges that there is dirty money and shady political dealings behind this operation.

It seems strange therefore that they are apparently the airline of choice for several South American soccer teams. In my experience Soccer teams don't usually need to buy cheap... so one might assume the airline is either particularly well connected in the VIP market, or they are #1 choice for some other reason. We understand the crew complement was 9, that's 2 pilots and 7 cabin crew on an aircraft that normally operates with only 2 or 3 cabin crew. Why so many? You might say this is a VIP operation but 4 or 5 would be overdoing it for VIPs.... but 7 for a pax load of 85 ???

What sort of party bus is this exactly ?

[NiclasB]

Smott, re submitted flight plans: During my ATPL theory studies, our instructor (an MD-80 professional pilot) explained a "trick" to deal with marginal fuel/range: For a trip from A to B that passes C along the way, file A to C with B as alternate. When approaching C, if weather at B ok and fuel status good, i.e. contingency not consumed, declare "go to alternate". With this trick, he could use the alternate fuel to "extend" his legal range, of course at the expense of reduced options once at B...

Edit: Magplug beat me to it.

[Mike_WB]

I've found the link that was posted by Flyguy2006 in message #145 very interesting. I'm not a native speaker, but after listening to it a couple of times I think I got most of it. Seems like this statement is made by an Avianca pilot supposedly av9771. He describes that they were instructed to enter a holding pattern due to the viva colombia flight carrying out an emergency landing due to a (suspected) fuel leak. They initially entered the holding at 21.000ft and then descended to 19.000ft in the pattern. The Lamia flight entered the holding just above them at 21.000ft. After some time he reports that the Lamia asked for priority due to a "fuel problem". I'm not sure if understood that correctly but it seemed like ATC asked them if they would declare emergency which they initially denied. The controller explained to them that there is currently an emergency landing in progress. They kept on asking for priority due to fuel and then stated that they would proceed for the approach. All of sudden they started a descent forcing the controller to vector the avianca flight away from the holding. He claims that they could see the lights of the flight descending next to them. The controller asked them again and they declared "mayday,mayday,mayday" stating that they experience a total electrical failure now. They panically asked for vectors towards the runway and the controller replied that she doesn't have them on the radar anymore. They continued asking for vectors and she explained that she suspects them at 180° 9000ft about 8 miles according to "D.O.R.". I don't know what that spanish term means but I guess it could be VDF. The avianca pilots states that they became extremly anxious when they learned about the suspected position of the Lamia flight. Then there was a last transmission asking for vector to the runway which ended abruptely. Thereafter, the controller and also the avianca crew tried to call them several times without success...
I don't know about the authenticity of the tape and maybe any native (or at least better) speaker can correct any mistakes I've made in my translation. Nonetheless, I would derive two interesting facts from that tape: First, they did not enter holding on their request but had to due to the VIVA colombia flight. Second, they announced the complete failure of the electrical system after they declared fuel emergency and started an unauthorized approach try.
So, to me it rather seems like they were on their last bit of fuel when entering the holding which came maybe unexpected to them and then ran out of fuel which also obviously leads to the loss of both generators leaving them on sby power. Pure speculation obviously....

[dazz.]

Had he filed a flight plan with Rionegro as an alternate, could he have asked to deviate to Medellin, just 10nm away, as soon as he was put on hold, to avoid declaring the emergency (and avoid being caught)?

[Una Due Tfc]

Under what circumstances would one choose to circle if one knew fuel was marginal?

If, let's say one knew one would have less than required 30 mins of fuel in the tanks on landing, and knowing that the only way of getting in ahead of the other priority aircraft would be to declare an emergency, which would automatically draw the eye of the regulator and result in the tanks being dipped, and prison time for you IF you, as both owner and PIC had done the above....

All hypothetical of course.

[EstorilM]

IanWorthington:

If they were told to, due to an emergency aircraft diverting to Madellin - forcing a hold - which appears to be the case.

There's some confusion as to whether or not the other flight had declared an emergency or not, but timeline-wise (in the link to the avherald article I posted above) they were cleared and entered the pattern immediately after the Avianca flight successfully landed, so I'd assume they have to be related. If ATC asked them to hold, it probably doesn't matter if the Avianca flight was "emergency" or not, it appears to have still triggered the hold for the accident LaMia flight.

The en-route alternate / diversion idea is interesting, but this is a classic example of why it wouldn't work. That scenario seems purely based upon some sort of weather delay or diversion, and would never account for unforeseen issues like a temp. hold at final destination - by then you'd be unable to divert, right? (obviously in this case, but I meant in normal ops in more typical situations and locations as well?)

Still, going bingo fuel in a 6 minute (or whatever it was) hold (after a normal, direct flight) is obviously criminal, and some hugely important rules and regs had already been broken by then.

[Design Engineer]

@ Magplug, you posted ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alas Para Volar
I hazard a prediction that the root cause is PIC is owner of the airline. Commercial / status / prestige imperative. Pushing the range envelope. Not enough fuel. No reserve / contingency. Entirely avoidable accident. RIP.

Magplug: I'd go with that 100%

According to local media, you are spot on.

From Director de la aerolínea LaMia habla sobre accidente de Chapecoense - Justicia - ELTIEMPO.COM (http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/justicia/accidente-de-chapecoense-entrevista-al-director-de-la-aerolinea-lamia/16761870) (using Google Chrome's translate) in an interview with a company director of LAMIA ...

"The pilot, Miguel Alejandro Quiroga Murakami, was the owner of the company."

Regarding re-fuelling he seems a bit vague or confused.

"How are the protocols that you have on fuel? Is it possible to arrive with little fuel to somewhere where they will land or always have to have a sufficient reserve?

As you say, it must have sufficient reserve fuel to reach an alternative.

Had they already done this flight to Medellin?

Yes, but we did it twice from Medellin to Bolivia. It was a flight that was always perfect."

"Why the passengers had to change planes?

As Brazil did not authorize us, so we had to get them to Santa Cruz. We had one plane and that plane has been that has been flying around.

But at no time this flight had planned resupply reach to Bogota?

Santa Cruz had to go to Cobija, which is in Bolivia. Cobija had to go to Medellin. But they went straight to Bogota, and then had to see the possibility of continuing or landing in Bogota. It was night. And that denial of Brazil was complicated a bit. But apparently, if the pilot has continued it's just because he could. It has continued and has passed this catastrophe that makes us much harm.

When the plane arrived in Medellin no longer had enough fuel to land?

We're seeing that, waiting for research information. But if he felt he had no fuel, he had to go to Bogota to restock. Bogota airport, according to the flight plan, was the alternate for anything. Before going Bogota had to make the decision; if it was with good fuel I had to follow, but if something was wrong with the fuel, should enter."

Apologies for the limitations of Google Translate but from that, I infer that the Captain decided he could make his destination without re-fuelling for reserve fuel, presumably in the belief that there would no need for any, a gross violation of flight planning.

That page also has some other good relevant links. Well worth looking at.

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

Smott, re submitted flight plans: During my ATPL theory studies, our instructor (an MD-80 professional pilot) explained a "trick" to deal with marginal fuel/range: For a trip from A to B that passes C along the way, file A to C with B as alternate. When approaching C, if weather at B ok and fuel status good, i.e. contingency not consumed, declare "go to alternate". With this trick, he could use the alternate fuel to "extend" his legal range, of course at the expense of reduced options once at B...

Edit: Magplug beat me to it.


Yup, been shown this 'clever trick' by some morons early in my career, when flying for a somewhat shady charter operator. However, it's not clever and, in fact, not legal. If you re-dispatch in the air (which the above in-fact is), you are still supposed to have alternate, final reserve AND contingency fuel for the remainder of the flight.

Properly done, re-dispatch can save a couple of kg's and possibly prevent a fuel stop on the way, but it is not a license to operate without adequate reserves...

[patowalker]

Thanks 35hPA28. I missed that.

Apparently, the Argentine football team was not impressed with the aircraft when they travelled on it recently.

La selección de Messi se había quejado del avión de la desgracia - 30.11.2016 - LA NACION (http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1960874-la-seleccion-de-messi-se-habia-quejado-del-avion-de-la-desgracia)

[dazz.]

According to Lamia's director (from the interview posted by Design Engineer above) the plan had Bogota as an alternate, and Rionegro as a destination, so that would rule out the trick

[zedoscarro]

Could it have been a combination of fuel starvation and a ghost glidepath indication?
Cause he was quite high in that holding pattern...

[IanWorthington]

Regarding re-fuelling he seems a bit vague or confused.

I think that's thanks to Google Translate. It doesn't come across like that in the original at least not to me.

[GearDown&Locked]

Here is a link to the report from the Avianca pilot regarding the supposed ATC conversations. It is in Spanish so I'm unable to translate it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xomwSg4UCsc

Translation (until a better one comes up):

We were told to go to rwy 01 hold at 21.000ft, and then ordered to 19.000ft.
When we were at 19.000ft the RJ85 was above us and was asking ATC (female ATCO) “We ask for priority and to proceed directly to the runway, we ask for priority and to proceed to the localizer, we have a fuel problem”
It occurred to me that the Captain said he had a fuel problem and can’t declare an emergency in that moment.
“We have a problem, the plane is making an emergency landing, we’ll proceed, we’ll proceed, we have a fuel problem” and they started to descend.
The controller then asked (us) “AVIANCA 9256 turn left heading …” whatever to at least make us avoid that sh*t. We even saw their lights passing us while they were descending.
The controller then asked “Are you declaring an emergency” and the pilot replied “yes, we are declaring an emergency, we have fuel problems” and then made the mayday call.
The controller direct them to the localizer for rwy 01 and asked “please inform what is your problem” and they replied “now we have total electrical failure! (we need) vectors to the runway”
The controller said she couldn’t do that because she didn’t have them on radar.
They asked again “help us, vectors to the runway” and kept asking continuously. We could understand someone shouting in the background – “gear down”
Then the controller said “you’re at the 180 radial of rwy 01 at 9000ft, about 8 miles”
But they kept on asking “help us Miss, vectors to the runway” until they were heard no more.
This went on for about two minutes.
(...)

[IanWorthington]

Translation (until a better one comes up):

Adriaan at Colombia Reports, Colombia News | Colombia Reports (http://colombiareports.com/), is working on it now.

[dmba]

The female crew who survived has been quoted (http://globoesporte.globo.com/sc/futebol/times/chapecoense/noticia/2016/11/sobrevivente-do-voo-da-chape-revela-que-luzes-apagaram-antes-da-queda.html) as saying that the lights inside the aircraft began to turn off gradually in the 50 seconds before impact.

The male crew who survived has said (http://globoesporte.globo.com/sc/futebol/times/chapecoense/noticia/2016/11/sobrevivente-revela-que-escapou-da-tragedia-ao-ficar-na-posicao-fetal.html) he remained in the fetal position after gathering bags to place in between his legs.

[RAT 5]

What's the nav kit on this a/c? What works from the battery? No fuel = no Gens or APU. 19000' and not on radar? Hm?

[dmba]

Video from helicopter showing a bit more detail of location of debris.
Filmagem de helicóptero mostra que avião da Chape colidiu durante queda (http://globoesporte.globo.com/sc/futebol/times/chapecoense/noticia/2016/11/filmagem-de-helicoptero-mostra-que-aviao-da-chape-colidiu-antes-da-queda.html)

[RiSq]

The more I read about this incident....the less it becomes a case of "Holes in the cheese" - more a case of one big hole of failiures.

1. The Range / Fuel issue. Seems a case of "Got away with it twice, but not thrice" - Ultimately, previous attempts did not involve holding.

2. Why the delay in announcing a fuel starvation issue? Why not announce an emergency immediately - Those crucial minutes could of changed everything?

3. Why the urge to "Get down" and have the gear down, causing drag? Obviously we don't have an accurate timeline...but the "gear down" seems to be early. I would of thought in a fuel starved situation this would be the least of your concerns - in fact, unless approaching an airfield, would gear up not have been preferred for a terrain landing? Also - at the height they were - surely Altitude buys you time to calculate and plan. Once it's gone, you aren't getting it back.

Also - someone familiar on type. Surely this issue presented itself over a period of time - so alarm bells should have been ringing. I cannot imagine all 4 engines having a simultanious flame out? So is there actually a possibility that the crew, knowing they were marginal, ignored the fact one (Some) of the engines were shutdown?

It reads like the worst chain of events in aviation I have seen in a long time. Not only that, it seems that fate gave them multiple bites at the cherry to "Save" the situation and at each and every step, the obvious was not done.

[GearDown&Locked]

What's the nav kit on this a/c? What works from the battery? No fuel = no Gens or APU. 19000' and not on radar? Hm?

Avianca 9256 was holding initially at 21.000 ft then descended to 19.000ft, and the RJ85 was already above them.

From what I understood from the Avianca pilot, ATC lost radar contact after they had left their holding position.

[dsc810]

@RiSq
Re your item 2
read post #158 for the most probable explanation of why he did not want to declare an emergency and thereby attract unwanted official interest in the goings on.

[RiSq]

@Dsc810 - I cannot fathom that, I really cannot - but it basically confirms my other belief - there were mutliple points to turn this situation around. It's absolutely disgusting that, even with the facts in front of him - no fuel, Emergency....he neglected to inform ATC, which ultimately, would of prioritised them. I'd face the consequences of my abysmal actions rather than risk the lives of my PAX - actually, I wouldn't have to as I would not put anyones life at risk to begin with, if I were a Professional Pilot.

I'm not sure if it was Arrogance or stupidity (We will hopefully find out) - but ultimately, it killed (nearly) all of them.

I would normally refrain from such comments, but this looks like it literally is as simple as it first appears. God almighty, I hope I am wrong as ultimately, it makes it more redeemable.

[GearDown&Locked]

Question :
When the ATCO called them at 9.000 ft 8 miles out, would this Alt be AGL or MSL?

[20milesout]

RiSq:
It reads like the worst chain of events in aviation I have seen in a long time. Not only that, it seems that fate gave them multiple bites at the cherry to "Save" the situation and at each and every step, the obvious was not done.Sadly some people rather die than admit to a mistake.

[portmanteau]

Ian w/liveryman: the pic didnt choose to hold, he was instructed to by atc. the fact that he followed the instruction suggests to me that he was unaware of any problem other than electrical, at that time.

[IcePack]

I hope should this be a fuel issue that it brings "food for thought" to those Airlines that quite legally use the other runway at an airfield as the diversion. (not in this case) A lot of the lessons learnt in the past have now been forgotten. "oh that won't happen" often quoted, but as the legal limits become tighter, the illegal ones become very tight.

[dmba]

Audio (in spanish)
"Falha total": áudio mostra piloto do avião da Chape insistindo para pousar (http://globoesporte.globo.com/sc/futebol/times/chapecoense/noticia/2016/11/novo-audio-mostra-piloto-do-aviao-da-chapecoense-insistindo-para-pousar.html)

[Design Engineer]

Not immediately relevant to this accident per se but I came across this article during my online wanderings ...... https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2016/11/29/chavismo-corruption-dark-past-lamia-airlines/

[patowalker]

No wonder LMI 2933 didn't land at Cobija for fuel: the airport has no lighting.

[alemaobaiano]

Normal procedures for landing significantly below minimum fuel in this part of the world is that the aircraft would be impounded pending an investigation, the flight deck crew would be grounded for the duration, if not actually imprisoned, and the company operating certificate would be temporarily suspended. The most likely outcome after a few months would be a massive fine.

Why might that be relevant? Lamia operated a single aircraft, the captain was also the owner of the company, and the company was short of funds and looking for investors. Not a good situation at all.

There have been a number of folks asking why a number of clubs and national teams used this operator. Quite simply they were "recommended" by Conmebol, the South American federation.

[ATC Watcher]

When the ATCO called them at 9.000 ft 8 miles out, would this Alt be AGL or MSL?

MSL of course. I guess ( only guess at this stage) and she lost him because of terrain filters on the radar.
Medelin MDE elevation is 7000 ft, so 9000ft 8 miles out , with no power even on flat ground, no chances anyway. ( there are 10.000ft peaks in the area. )

Edit : Just listened to the R/T posted,
the last transmission was :" 9 mil pés, senhorita. Vectores,, vectores." ( 9000ft Miss, Vectors, vectors ..) so the pilot gave the Alt , not the controller it was apparently not visible on the Secondary radar.

[alemaobaiano]

Ian w/liveryman: the pic didnt choose to hold, he was instructed to by atc. the fact that he followed the instruction suggests to me that he was unaware of any problem other than electrical, at that time.

He hadn't reported any problem up to that point, the electrical failure came after he started an unauthorized descent, and after he told ATC about his fuel situation, according to the more reliable news sources here.

[peekay4]

If the weather forecast is well above limits and two completely separate suitable runways are available what's wrong with planning that as your diversion runway, and adding a bit of holding fuel on top?

The problem is that the intended airport may close for reasons other than weather. Security situations, accidents, fires, ATC or NAV/COM issues, natural disasters, etc.

So it's a good idea to always have enough fuel to reach an alternate airport, plus reserves, even if not required by regulations.

[meekmok]

From the helicopter video footage, it looks like it crashed right next to the Rionegro VOR. Could he of been trying to (steeply) descend to that VOR, thinking it was at the end of the runway (KAL801)?

[A0283]

ATC not having the plane on radar, apparently not able to provide vectors ... other planes nearby (enough to see its lights passing) (believe someone mentioned they had them on TCAS)... ?

It appears to have escalated in 2 minutes ....

But, has there been any mention of ATC asking other pilots for assistance ?

[Smott999]

Now reading that the wreckage is very close to the localizer, as if he flew straight at that.
Possible?
Would explain steep descent and gear down....?

[A0283]

@meekmok ... too early to answer your question when you look at the available photos. All (except one) photos have been taken from one side of the ridge. Would be necessary to have photos from the other side of the ridge too. These might help to explain what appear to be multiple deep drag marks. I got the impression that you could only explain that when for instance the MLG had been down and the plane came from the other side. Gear down would be surprising based on the distance they had to go. You dont put your gear down early if you are running out of fuel.

An aerial view of the whole site and more photos from the other side of the ridge might explain more.

Addition - #170 of dmba has an good video of a helicopter circling the area, show a wing on top of the high ridge, the earlier seen wreckage below and the VOR on top of the table top mountain opposite. Pity the video is not shown close up.

[thcrozier]

"Falla eléctrica total, ni combustible" - "Total electrical failure, and (literally "nor") fuel..."

From the Spanish audio in the Portuguese newspaper link.

[Lonewolf_50]

There have been a number of folks asking why a number of clubs and national teams used this operator. Quite simply they were "recommended" by Conmebol, the South American federation. I note that ... continental governing body of association football in South America and it is one of FIFA's six continental confederations. Is it too much of a leap to guess that a payment envelope to someone there accompanied this recommendation? That would be consistent with FIFA style behavior, and also consistent with the article about LAMIA from the last page (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/,%20which%20would%20be%20a%20consistent%20theme%20when%20mat ched%20to%20that%20article%20about%20LAMIA%20in%20the%20pana ma%20based%20paper's%20article.). (While I do take Ms Martin's article with a grain of salt, "having connections" is how a lot of business gets done all over the world). Which regulatory body would have oversight over this air charter company? The Venezuelan or Bolivian? Country of registry is Venezuela.


While I'd expect the Colombians to initiate the Accident Investigation, and I'd expect Venezuelan and Brazillian investigators to have an interest, would Bolivian authorities necessarily be involved or would they not necessarily be?

[jugofpropwash]

The problem is that the intended airport may close for reasons other than weather. Security situations, accidents, fires, ATC or NAV/COM issues, natural disasters, etc.

So it's a good idea to always have enough fuel to reach an alternate airport, plus reserves, even if not required by regulations.
Yeah, I don't think I would want to put all my eggs in one basket by having my only "diversion" be a different runway. At the very least, I'd want to know that there was somewhere else I could reach in a "worst case" scenario, even if that was somewhere that would normally be off-limits. (Military base, slightly under limits runway length, etc.)

[Lonewolf_50]

Not having ever flown this aircraft type, and it being the terminal phase, might the owner/pilot perhaps have secured two engines during holding (or in the descent into the terminal phase) to save those last few drops of gas since he must have known fuel was getting tight? (No idea how this aircraft does with just two engines, asking out of sheer ignorance). None of the foregoing condones improper fuel planning/reserve requirements ... I am sort of wondering how they got away with this kind of marginal fuel issue on previous flights for the same route?




What informs the question is some ancient "as a last resort" ideas to "single up" a dual engine helicopter at sea when in a fuel emergency ...

[twincommander]

The investigation will no doubt reveal when the batteries were last serviced or replaced for this aircraft. You would expect essential or emergency buss power to be maintained for a decent interval after all-engine flameout... and not for the transponder, navaids to 'go dark' so quickly.

[Airbubba]

This is claimed to be ATC audio leading up to the mishap as acquired by Radio W, a Colombian station, possibly the same audio posted earlier by dbma with a little background music:

Los audios de la torre de control previo al accidente del avión del Chapecoense | 20161130 (http://www.wradio.com.co/escucha/archivo_de_audio/los-audios-de-la-torre-de-control-previo-al-accidente-del-avion-del-chapecoense/20161130/oir/3318451.aspx)

Sounds like the Avianca holding below was indeed AV9356, not AV9256.

Now reading that the wreckage is very close to the localizer, as if he flew straight at that.

The Wikipedia article has this placemark, the drug lord style helipad with guard towers, or whatever it is [from the lat long, it's apparently the RNG VOR - Airbubba], is indeed in some of the videos of the accident scene:

https://goo.gl/maps/RgPzFzNYzR42

[Chronus]

"Falla eléctrica total, ni combustible" - "Total electrical failure, and (literally "nor") fuel..."

From the Spanish audio in the Portuguese newspaper link.
It would make a little more sense if it was "no fuel" first followed by "total electrical failure".

However the exception must be Ansett VH-JJP, Karrath - Perth night flight incident of March 1992 where all four engines rolled back and electrical power was lost comes to mind.

Nevertheless it is almost inconceivable that the aircraft could have been dispatched without sufficient fuel reserves.

[thcrozier]

At 1:16 of Airbubba's link above, you can can clearly hear "Estamos en falla eléctrica total, falla total, y (or 'ni') combustible."

"We are in total electrical failure, total failure, and fuel."

[alemaobaiano]

Is it too much of a leap to guess that a payment envelope to someone there accompanied this recommendation?

Not much of a leap at all, it would be pretty much standard practice for sports confederations around here.

[Design Engineer]

twincommander, good point about the batteries. An old friend worked on the 146 for a time and mentioned that it had a hefty Nickel Cadmium pack, unsurprisingly, given one of its original rough field, no cart roles. The crash aircraft had been in storage for 3? years. One thing that NiCads *hate* is not being used regularly and they lose capacity permanently. For sure it would have deteriorated.

[dmba]

I hear "sin combustível".

He's saying they have no fuel.

[patowalker]

At 1:16 of Airbubba's link above, you can can clearly hear "Estamos en falla eléctrica total, falla total, y (or 'ni') combustible."

"We are in total electrical failure, total failure, and fuel."

What he said was "Señorita Lamia 933 está en falla total, falla eléctrica total, sin combustible."

"Miss, Lamia 933 is in total failure, total electrical failure, without fuel"

[Mr Good Cat]

The problem is that the intended airport may close for reasons other than weather. Security situations, accidents, fires, ATC or NAV/COM issues, natural disasters, etc.

So it's a good idea to always have enough fuel to reach an alternate airport, plus reserves, even if not required by regulations.

So let's consider a situation where you plan to destination with marginal weather and plan an alternate that is CAVOK.

You get to destination, weather is below limits so you hold until reaching your diversion fuel and divert to your single runway CAVOK alternate arriving with final reserve fuel. However, this now closes for reasons other than weather... what is the difference in that and arriving at a 2 runway airport with final reserve plus a bit in hand (providing the weather at destination is well above limits as stated in my previous post)?

[thcrozier]

What he said was "Señorita Lamia 933 está en falla total, falla eléctrica total, sin combustible."

"Miss, Lamia 933 is in total failure, total electrical failure, without fuel"

Gracias Pato. Interesting that he was so courteous up to the end. Whispers of Avianca 52?

[twincommander]

We can only imagine how this aircraft was maintained, and whether the NiCads had received their periodic deep discharge/re-charge. Still strange that a conservatively-designed British aircraft would have a black instrument panel so soon after generator power loss.

[Rainydays]

I agree with your comment intellectually. I believe however, that the likelihood of an unfavourable chain of events at two completely disconnected locations is lower than at two parallel runways.

[Teddy Robinson]

The radio was working, ergo the battery was working.
Failure sequence (excluding the feed tanks LO and numerous shutdown warnings) would quite possibly be AC1/2 and no APU start available, possible loss of SBYGEN resulting EMDC/AC with all of those implications. Not a good place to be.

[Chronus]

What he said was "Señorita Lamia 933 está en falla total, falla eléctrica total, sin combustible."

"Miss, Lamia 933 is in total failure, total electrical failure, without fuel"
The fact that this is being transmitted from the stricken plane means that some electrical systems were still available, running on battery power with the aircraft in the descent, in the glide. On this occasion the glide did not work out for these most unfortunate people.
I do though wonder what the theoretical glide performance of this particular aircraft, in the given circumstances would have been.

[Design Engineer]

twincommander, I can only concur with your comments. Earlier in the thread someone posted a list of instruments that would still be available after generator loss. I'm unclear if that was for a 146 or an RJ now. Losing all your EFIS in an RJ would be a scary event, especially at night.

[sTeamTraen]

BBC is now reporting that the plane ran out of fuel: Chapecoense air crash: Leaked tape shows plane 'ran out of fuel' - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38160713)

[alanraymond]

The British press are still reporting that the flight was from São Paulo to Medellin via Santa Cruz with Lamia but other agencies are saying the leg to Bolivia was a commercial flight. Lamia had been refused by the Brazilian aviation authorities as it was not registered. Somebody in Brazil was keen that the team used Lamia come what may. This stinks of backhanders and commissions . What a tragedy for those innocent people

[Smott999]

Will the black boxes CVR reveal a low fuel enunciation?

[rideforever]

Hi profile flight.
If you declare an emergency with such valued customers you might lose your job.

[illusion]

Some simple maths:

Total fuel 9360kg
Minus fixed reserve of 900kg gives
8460kg
Taxi/takeoff/climb first hour 3000kg gives
5460kg
5460kg/2200 per hour burn gives 2.48 hours.
1+2.48 = 3.48 hrs @ 380ktas equals
1322nm range nil wind with no variable reserve.

This is somewhat less than the reported 1600nm sector.

I rest my case.

[Lonewolf_50]

Hi profile flight.
If you declare an emergency with such valued customers you might lose your job.
And if you don't, maybe you and your pax lose your life. Not that hard of a choice, is it? (Hmm, I say that full well admitting that there is a certain idea among certain pilots that "it is better to die than to look bad" but I never considered that a PoV among transport/passenger carrying pilots).
Afterthought, having now read the BBC article: Moments before the flight took off, Mauro Stumpf from the team's coaching staff said he hoped the airline brought them "good luck" - as when the team flew with the same company for the quarter-finals. That one hurts right in the heart strings. :{ He may not have realized that someone in that company was relying on good luck for this flight to get them there ...

[Design Engineer]

sTeamTraen, the BBC are still incorrectly calling the plane a BAe 146 though instead of an RJ85 along with many other media sources. Why don't they check ?

[Alas para Volar]

The investigation will no doubt reveal when the batteries were last serviced or replaced for this aircraft. You would expect essential or emergency buss power to be maintained for a decent interval after all-engine flameout... and not for the transponder, navaids to 'go dark' so quickly.
Once the engines flame out it is almost certainly all over in this scenario.....

[dmba]

"From what I understand, there was going to be a stop in Cobija. But the plane that was bringing the players from Chapecoense to Bolivia was delayed. As a result, they couldn't land in Cobija, there are no night operations at Cobija, in fact there are no lights on the runway. So they decided to fill the tank completely, with fuel. In addition to that, the players had to train. It would have been enough to get there, but they were forced to wait which used up all the fuel.
They took the decision to fill the tank completely, which isn't something they usually do but it would have been possible to land, considering they were only 17 miles from the airport, about 3 to 5 minutes. Being in holding traffic is what ended up using all the fuel that was left. However, we have to await the analysis of the black boxes to find out, for certain, what really happened."

Said the son of the co-pilot, who is in his last year of training to be a pilot.

[Magplug]

Yup, been shown this 'clever trick' by some morons early in my career, when flying for a somewhat shady charter operator. However, it's not clever and, in fact, not legal. If you re-dispatch in the air (which the above in-fact is), you are still supposed to have alternate, final reserve AND contingency fuel for the remainder of the flight.

Properly done, re-dispatch can save a couple of kg's and possibly prevent a fuel stop on the way, but it is not a license to operate without adequate reserves...

@Sidestick... You don't appear to understand the concept of using an en-route alternate to reduce contingency (or statistical contingency) fuel.

It is not a shady practice and is written into most EASA Ops Manuals. The entire amount of Contingency fuel may be used at the Captain's discretion any time after dispatch.

[Smott999]

With English translation
Apologies if already posted

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=6Ab5x_C-CFg

[Alas para Volar]

Nevertheless it is almost inconceivable that the aircraft could have been dispatched without sufficient fuel reserves.

Really? Do you have any experience of operations in this locale? "Dios es un piloto Boliviano"

[Alas para Volar]

The fact that this is being transmitted from the stricken plane means that some electrical systems were still available, running on battery power with the aircraft in the descent, in the glide. On this occasion the glide did not work out for these most unfortunate people.
I do though wonder what the theoretical glide performance of this particular aircraft, in the given circumstances would have been.
The 146 has been proven to glide rather well. But not recommended in the vicinity of high terrain.

[Smott999]

I am now truly wondering if he mistakenly aimed for the VOR.
"gear down" was clearly heard. And the holding/witness aircraft reported steep descent.

[Lonewolf_50]

Total fuel 9360kg
Minus fixed reserve of 900kg gives
8460kg
Taxi/takeoff/climb first hour 3000kg gives
5460kg
5460kg/2200 per hour burn gives 2.48 hours.
1+2.48 = 3.48 hrs @ 380ktas equals
1322nm range nil wind with no variable reserve.

This is somewhat less than the reported 1600nm sector.
First off, nice illustration of a fuel planning approach. :ok: Now just to play devil's advocate: if forecast winds aloft are 70-90 knots tail wind component at planned FL, you can see how someone might talk themselves into figuring that they can make it.
I prefer your approach, however.
Later Edit: I did a little poking about at some met sites, and from what I found, a tail wind approaching that value was not available for that night's flight. Maybe that was a bad example of how one might talk one's self into making this a one leg flight.

[Design Engineer]

They took the decision to fill the tank completely, which isn't something they usually do but it would have been possible to land, considering they were only 17 miles from the airport, about 3 to 5 minutes. Being in holding traffic is what ended up using all the fuel that was left. However, we have to await the analysis of the black boxes to find out, for certain, what really happened."

Said the son of the co-pilot, who is in his last year of training to be a pilot.

I hope he learns about fuel reserves !

[cappt]

With poor airspeed control and a conservative glide/ratio they would have had a good 30 miles of glide from FL210.

[DaveReidUK]

the BBC are still incorrectly calling the plane a BAe 146 though instead of an RJ85 along with many other media sources. Why don't they check ?

If we're going to be picky, the downed aircraft is certificated as a British Aerospace-built Avro 146 Series RJ85.

So referring to it as a BAe 146 is not unreasonable.

[Tu.114]

They took the decision to fill the tank completely (...)

On the very few types I know, trying to fill the tanks to the brim gives varying results, mostly depending on the slope of the parking position, even if the selector panel is set to slightly above maximum capacity. At some point, the system will consider the tanks full, even if there may be a few 100kg missing from their nominal capacity. So planning a flight under the assumption of having the tanks filled to their maximum capacity is not always the smartest of ideas and might lead to scratching of heads when the fueller brings the receipt.

So: how about the RJ85, will it always accept fuel until the tanks are physically full, or does it show the same effect?

[Rainydays]

sTeamTraen, the BBC are still incorrectly calling the plane a BAe 146 though instead of an RJ85 along with many other media sources. Why don't they check ?
Probably because to most readers it makes no difference at all... It looks the same, and basic characteristics are the same.

[Alas para Volar]

On the very few types I know, trying to fill the tanks to the brim gives varying results, mostly depending on the slope of the parking position, even if the selector panel is set to slightly above maximum capacity. At some point, the system will consider the tanks full, even if there may be a few 100kg missing from their nominal capacity.

So: how about the RJ85, will it always accept fuel until the tanks are physically full, or does it show the same effect?
Not to mention the specific gravity of the fuel. Perhaps the authorities should mandate additional fuel reserves to cover this kind of contingency. Just a thought.

[thcrozier]

With English translation
Apologies if already posted

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=6Ab5x_C-CFg

Translation sounds accurate to me.

At the end he still has Comm and is begging the controller for vectors, so one way or another it seems he had no NAV or at least was disoriented.

[DIBO]

I am now truly wondering if he mistakenly aimed for the VOR.Unlikely with most (all) nav instruments failed, and they wouldn't be begging for vectors if VOR and DME (for the diving aspect) would be operational
With poor airspeed control and a conservative glide/ratio they would have had a good 30 miles of glide from FL210.a tad less if you subtract airfield elevation of 7000ft, but still with only 17 miles to cover....could come close

[pax britanica]

I feel for the controller-poor woman. What a nightmare-two fuel emergencies a tricky approach and bad weather -sounds like she does very well and still the 146 goes down , scar her mentally for life I would think and I hope she gets over what has to have been a harrowing experience.

[twincommander]

Your assertion is not true. Many of us routinely practice this is the simulator, now referred to as the Sullenburger Maneuver. In our aircraft, all engine flameout leads to 45 minutes of battery life with basic instruments and lighting - not an instantly-black aircraft. The question whether you have altitude and energy to get to the nearest airport is a different one.

[EFHF]

With poor airspeed control and a conservative glide/ratio they would have had a good 30 miles of glide from FL210.
They almost hit the VOR RNG which is at 8700 ft MSL, 10 nm out of the threshold. If the information is correct that they started descent at 17 nm out, that gives you a glide ratio of 1:3.5 which is probably about 1/3 of what is achievable.

I think the theory that they were mistakenly attempting to descend to the VOR seems quite plausible. If the last range they had read was to the VOR and when EFIS quit, they might have though they were too high and configured for a steeper gliding descent than necessary.

[Guy of Gisborne]

I have flown and been trained by prob one of the only Capts to have a four engine failure on an BAE146. It then became a fave of his as a sim instructor. The AC will glide quite well and you'll achieve at least 2nm per 1000ft in still wind. So yes it's possible, even with high terrain to glide to the airfield. What you're failing to understand is, the aircraft could not see the airfield visually, it was on emergency AC and DC power, the power situation leaves the captain on sby instruments and no navigational indications. This is why the Capt was desperate for vectors to the runway. With vectors he could still fly a heading and speed. Obv without secondary or primary radar available the controller had no idea where the AC was.

[barit1]

A320ECAM...I would maintain (or even climb to a higher) altitude and await further instructions.

You have two energy sources; #1 fuel in tanks, and #2 (a portion of) fuel already burned. You need to take the airplane to the highest possible energy state so when #1 is gone, you have the best possible remaining energy.

And in a critical state, I would remind ATC that they do NOT fly the airplane, and would announce that I am landing ETA...

[Passenger 389]

on 30th Nov 2016, 21:24, Smott999 posted:

Will the black boxes CVR reveal a low fuel enunciation?


That presumes CVR and FDR properly hooked up, maintained, powered, operating.

Not something I automatically presume in this instance, given some apparent corner-cutting, questions whether batteries were adequately serviced, etc.

Where's the profit (for LAMIA) in properly inspecting, maintaining CVR and FDR?

Perhaps more of a risk (if had to make emerg landing, and a regulator then checked FDR-CVR and found they knowingly made trip without adequate reserves, and perhaps had done so before - the FDR might show that, if it contained record of past flights).

[Tu.114]

I do not know how things are done in Colombia, but here, we have to declare "Minimum Fuel" when it is to be foreseen that, following the present cleared route, fuel on landing will be less than Alternate Fuel plus required final reserve (30 minutes in most cases), and a "Fuel Emergency" ("Mayday, mayday, mayday FUEL") will be declared when fuel on landing is anticipated to be below final reserve.

This declaration is to be made well before the fuel state is reached, not when already flying around on the last fumes.

The rules are good as they are, they just need to be followed.

[Design Engineer]

DaveReidUK,


Originally Posted by Design Engineer
the BBC are still incorrectly calling the plane a BAe 146 though instead of an RJ85 along with many other media sources. Why don't they check ?

If we're going to be picky, the downed aircraft is certificated as a British Aerospace-built Avro 146 Series RJ85.

So referring to it as a BAe 146 is not unreasonable.

Being very picky, a 146-200 is the closest match. ;)

[NiclasB]

EFHF: Re configure for steep dive I'm told by a few active RJ100 crew that the bird has plenty of that to offer. 10.000+ ft/min if I remember them correctly. I guess it would be similar on the RJ85.

[klintE]

Looking at the pictures of B-boxes...
FDR is Allied Signal with 25 hours of flight data.
And CVR is probably BASE SCR500
But they were in 2 versions: SCR500-030 and SCR500-120
First is recording last 30 minutes, and the second is recording last 120 minutes.
It would be better to hear more then 30 minutes I think.

[PastTense]

While I understand that the pilot faced legal repercussions for stating a fuel emergency, what prevented him from stating some other type of emergency: for example a medical emergency--the pilot was having a heart attack.

[Lonewolf_50]

@PastTense: if he were that clever to start with, he might have been clever enough not to get into that bind in the first place.

[NiclasB]

I'm with 'wolf here. That kind of thinking would require that he was mentally prepared for a 'low fuel' situation, which seems unlikely IMHO.

[plhought]

twincommander, I can only concur with your comments. Earlier in the thread someone posted a list of instruments that would still be available after generator loss. I'm unclear if that was for a 146 or an RJ now. Losing all your EFIS in an RJ would be a scary event, especially at night.

That list was for the RJ. No EFIS with battery only.

All ya got is Standby Attitude Indicator with bars for glideslope and localizer from #1 Nav.

Standby combined altimeter and air speed indicator driven only be pitot static pressure, and a little DC driven panel vibrator to make the thing run smooth.

#1 Com works.

Also, #1 XPNDR, although you lose mode C data. (EDIT: I'm incorrect - No Xpndr w/o Ess AC from either Standby Hyd. Gen or AC source)

You loose pretty much all your instrument backlighting, and flood. It's mighty dark. You'd need a torch.

Also get brake pressure indication as well.

Draw just on battery is about 30ish amps.

The rush to bring the gear down near the end may have been precipitated by the battery power situation. The Emergency Main Gear Assister Jack uses the yellow DC pump pressure, and draws a significant amount of power, up to 60 amps initially. Not something you want to be trying 20 minutes into your 45/30 minute battery reserve.

There is a 'trick' to get essential (EDIT: Essential DC) (you are already at emergency) power off the battery - that is to turn on the Start Master, but in increases draw significantly to 45-60ish amps. Won't get much more than 15-20 minutes with that.

All of this is moot when none if your engines/apu is functioning though to be frank.

[AerocatS2A]

The Start Master trick only gets you essential DC, not AC, and is of limited use. It gets you OAT, cabin and duct temp indications, left windscreen wiper, both engine displays (not much use in this case), engine oil indicators, and feed tank and wing tank fuel quantity.

The transponder #1 is powered by ESS AC, so you wouldn't have that.

As for descent rate, yes you can get high rates of descent, but you need green hydraulics for the airbrake which would require a running engine.

Book figures for glide is 2.5:1 clean and 1:1 with gear down.

[Smott999]

The FA reported gradual loss of light in the cabin.
Does that sound like battery power running down?

And if they got to nil battery power would they have any instruments at all?

[AerocatS2A]

No battery means they'd have nothing at all. But they had the VHF comm so must have had battery.

[Una Due Tfc]

While I understand that the pilot faced legal repercussions for stating a fuel emergency, what prevented him from stating some other type of emergency: for example a medical emergency--the pilot was having a heart attack.

Because that also requires an external investigation.

Listen to the ATC audio...she has one priority aircraft before LMI declares emergency.....she pulls the LCO off the approach whilst giving avoiding action to AVA, then LCO needs another turn to avoid wx....nightmare scenario.

[Passenger 389]

Question:

Given the posts describing how few instruments, etc, likely would have been powered while operating on emerg battery power --

Would the FDR and CVR have continued to be powered, along with the microphones and other systems needed to transmit information to those recorders?

[Sidestick_n_Rudder]

@Sidestick... You don't appear to understand the concept of using an en-route alternate to reduce contingency (or statistical contingency) fuel.

It is not a shady practice and is written into most EASA Ops Manuals. The entire amount of Contingency fuel may be used at the Captain's discretion any time after dispatch.


Magplug, I do understand and have no problem with RCF (or whatever it is called in different parts of the world) - if it is in the ops manual and done properly.

If you have a careful look at my post (and the one I have quoted), I was talking about a 'trick' advocated by some, whereby you nominate an en-route alternate as your destination in the FPL and your destination as your alternate. Then, once in the air, you declare to 'divert' to your destination. This is not the same as RCF procedure.

[RV8GGRVy]

having listened to the YOUTUBE ATC tape a couple of times it seems to me that the lady ATC is one of the unsung heroes of the situation. Ice cool and utterly in command of an increasingly complex situation. Poor lady who must be suffering greatly now through no fault of her own

[plhought]

The Start Master trick only gets you essential DC, not AC, and is of limited use. It gets you OAT, cabin and duct temp indications, left windscreen wiper, both engine displays (not much use in this case), engine oil indicators, and feed tank and wing tank fuel quantity.

The transponder #1 is powered by ESS AC, so you wouldn't have that.

As for descent rate, yes you can get high rates of descent, but you need green hydraulics for the airbrake which would require a running engine.

Book figures for glide is 2.5:1 clean and 1:1 with gear down.
You're correct on the Xpndr. Does not function w/o AC. I'll edit my previous posts.

Essential DC is what I should have specified ;) You're correct.

[neila83]

having listened to the YOUTUBE ATC tape a couple of times it seems to me that the lady ATC is one of the unsung heroes of the situation. Ice cool and utterly in command of an increasingly complex situation. Poor lady who must be suffering greatly now through no fault of her own

Indeed, an example for all, and it's good to see at least one person here was at the top of their game. Absolute professionalism. I hope she's being looked after well, from my experience of this part of the world I have no doubt she is.

[jugofpropwash]

You're correct on the Xpndr. Does not function w/o AC. I'll edit my previous posts.

Essential DC is what I should have specified ;) You're correct.
If the transponder had been powered/working, and ATC had been able to locate the aircraft, could the situation have been salvaged (in other words, could they have been directed to the airport and made a successful landing)? If so, would it be worthwhile to provide some sort of battery backup power to the transponder?

[oleary]

The gal who was running ATC deserves a medal for her cool, calm and professional handling of this dual emergency.

Good on ya, girl.:D