Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

[ATC Watcher]

Maybe not a medal , but recognition . Indeed she did very well under pressure.
But in the MDE environment (High terrain area/airport/weather/old jets/shady airlines operating there , etc..) she must have had good training .
I hope they have CISM in place in Columbia because post traumatic stress is not easy to go away if you are on tour own..
Many ATCOs here feel for her...and wish her well.

[a318jockey]

Hello all,

I am not a pilot and will only post on this forum based on the evidence available so far. Don't want to speculate and will only focus on the accident investigation.

Listening the ATC recordings from the W Radio link posted by Bubba it can be heard that the LMI293 flight declares a fuel emergency 6:26 minutes (all times approximate) before impact while at FL210 and requests priority to land. The ATC operator tells him that she has to bring the flight down from that level and warns about traffic ahead. Approximately 4 minutes before impact advises the flight again about traffic which they acknowledge from their TCAS while crossing FL180. The flight reports again some 30 seconds later crossing FL160. After that contact the ATC operator gets busy redirecting other traffic, namely two Avianca and a LAN Colombia flights. Around 1:30 minutes before impact LMI293 reports total electric failure without fuel and asks for vectors. ATC reports she lost him from the radar. 1 minute before impact LMI293 reports heading 350. 20 seconds to impact the flight reports altitude 9000 ft and asks for vectors. That is their last contact, seconds later they crash.

The pilot can be heard somehow calm while at FL210 but progressively becomes anxious as things continue to unfold.

It would be very important to listen to any recordings about the exchanges between ATC and the crew at least 30-45 minutes before impact to get a clearer picture of how was the flight being handled considering the low fuel situation.

Hope this helps.

[Tu.114]

You do have the advantage of Spanish as a native tongue here - does he really declare a fuel emergency? To formally declare an emergency, the "Mayday mayday mayday" call would be necessary.

From the subtitled ATC recordings (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ab5x_C-CFg) I have been able to find, I have gathered that he requested priority because of a "fuel problem" (in that video at about 0:20). This is not a declaration of emergency and would be understood by controllers (at least around here) as a heads-up that they are approaching minimum fuel. At their flight planned destination, this would be alternate fuel (to get to their nominate alternate) plus final reserve (usually 30 minutes) left in the tanks.

Had they declared emergency earlier as they should have, possibly stating how much endurance they have left, it would have been a trigger for the controller (and with regards to her, I agree with the previous posters that she sounds like a true professional and hope that she will get the support she deserves) to get the other aircraft out of the way to get the LAMIA in ASAP. The outcome may very well have been different in that case. But as it sounds, they kept that vital information from the controller right until the point where the tanks were empty and the engines were flaming out.

[Nightstop]

@ Tu.144

I do not know how things are done in Colombia, but here, we have to declare "Minimum Fuel" when it is to be foreseen that, following the present cleared route, fuel on landing will be less than Alternate Fuel plus required final reserve (30 minutes in most cases)

Wrong. "Minimum Fuel" is declared when, having commited to land at a specific aerodrome, any change to the existing clearance to that aerodrome may result in landing there with less than planned final reserve fuel i.e. 30 minutes remaining.

[Trim Stab]

You do have the advantage of Spanish as a native tongue here - does he really declare a fuel emergency? To formally declare an emergency, the "Mayday mayday mayday" call would be necessary.

No - he doesn't declare a Mayday - just a fuel emergency. Hence the other aircraft on approach continue to request vectors and descents, taking up the time and attention of the controller.

[DouglasFlyer]

http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Level1/Briefing%20Leaflets/Air%20Traffic%20Services/13ATSBL01%20-%20ICAO%20changes%20for%20minimum%20and%20emergency%20fuel.p df

[ATC Watcher]

The crew never declared emergency , they just requested priority for approach because of a fuel problem. ( sollicitamos prioridad para la approximacion...problemas de combustible"
A huge difference for a controller and especially if you are dealing with a diversion with a similar request at the same time ( the Viva Columbia)
Declaring emergency as soon as the reserve was gone would have probably saved their day , got a direct much earlier and eliminate holding.
Avianca 52 all over again ...(for those old enough to remember, for the others, go to Google )

[Flyingmac]

Had they declared emergency earlier as they should have, possibly stating how much endurance they have left, it would have been a trigger for the controller to get the other aircraft out of the way to get the LAMIA in ASAP. The outcome may very well have been different in that case. But as it sounds, they kept that vital information from the controller right until the point where the tanks were empty and the engines were flaming out


That's about it in a nutshell. I really feel for that controller.

[patowalker]

I feel for the controller-poor woman. What a nightmare-two fuel emergencies a tricky approach and bad weather -sounds like she does very well and still the 146 goes down , scar her mentally for life I would think and I hope she gets over what has to have been a harrowing experience.

I also feel for the controller. The Viva Colombia aircraft did not declare an emergency. It diverted to Medellin for a precautionary landing when a warning light came on in the early stages of a flight from Bogota to San Andres. I have not read anywhere that there actually was a problem with the aircraft, although it did overnight at Medellin, because continuing would have meant the pilots exceeded the maximum hours allowed on duty.

[Double Back]

As this drama unfolds I have to "defend" to several not-flying friends, that these situations can and do happen. Very rightfully they ask how in the world a crew can be so neglectful of their fuel state. That is so basic to them they cannot understand how a professional crew gets themselves in such a bad position with a full load of pax.

My ole company is on the verge of even more fine tuning the reserve fuel qty. Hope this accident makes them think another time.

One idea about the steep descent could be failing instruments, that made them dash for VMC conditions below clouds. Just an idea, not more.

Yes and for the ATC lady: my (worn) hat off.

[Capt Scribble]

Nightstop, landing with less than 30 mins fuel is a Mayday in our Ops manual.

[Hotel Tango]

I would presume the quoted price for the charter included the en route fuel stop. Avoiding that fuel stop (thinking they had "enough" to make it) would have increased the profit margin. Commercial decision gone bad? Pure but reasonable speculation. It's been done before.

[Keep attacking 68]

Hi RiSQ

I have to agree with you 100%, so many human factors ignored here, too heavy, wasting time circling, too low, too slow, no fuel, no emergency call until 11th hour, while this is going on undercarriage deployed resulting in drag,??? WTF ? they may aswell chucked out a 2 tonne anchor aswell, to make sure they fall out off the sky quicker - just in-believable,??? the silver lining in all this is that the Flight technician survived, and if this is true, I bet he wished he didn't as he too is culpable.

[MrSnuggles]

Referencing Avianca 52...

...they were under the impression that they indeed HAD requested emergency assistance due to their word "priority" and the slightly different meaning it had in whatever Spanish related dialect those poor chaps spoke.

This crew also uses "priority", could it be that this means something like "emergency" in South America? Sure, native English speakers of course use their words of choice, but Spanish/Portuguese speakers maybe use "priority" when they are in Spanish/Portuguese speaking environments?

Anyone who could clarify this?

[Nightstop]

@ Capt Scribble

Nightstop, landing with less than 30 mins fuel is a Mayday in our Ops manual

I said "may" not "will". Will land with less than final reserve is indeed a "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday Fuel".

[Keep attacking 68]

But agree too, many parallels with the Avianca 52 crash, and the V/Viscount 700 crash in 79, Alidair Scotland, but at least Capt. Whitaker got her onto a plateaux, "flaired" the Viscount in a nose up attitude, wheels up, and got her down, all survived, that was fuel gauge issues if I recall, thought he had more than he did, - just some bent props and flattened underside.

[Himotep]

At least one occurrence of high-altitude engine rollback in icing conditions causing loss of electrical power on a Bae146.



https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/1992/AAIR/pdf/aair199200286_001.pdf

That links to an incident on a bae 146, not an avro rj. 146's were modified after a number of rollback incidents to be rollback protected. RJ's had a different engine installed, Alf 507 (146 Alf 502), this had an extra stage of compression known as a supercharger which prevented rollback.


Ref pannier tanks...
As has been mentioned this was a former Cityjet aircraft, none of their fleet has ever been installed with pannier tanks. The last lot of pannier tanks that became available were from an aircraft scrapped in Canada and found a home on one of the the Dubai Air Wings two RJ's. Lamia would not have carried out this modification.

[Tankertrashnav]

Nothing useful to contribute to the technical discussions on here but I'd like to add my admiration for the professionalism displayed by the ATC lady. I hope that the subsequent enquiry makes this point.

[Evanelpus]

I would presume the quoted price for the charter included the en route fuel stop. Avoiding that fuel stop (thinking they had "enough" to make it) would have increased the profit margin. Commercial decision gone bad? Pure but reasonable speculation. It's been done before.

Came up with the same thought, especially as I heard it was the airline owner who was one of the pilots. Can you imagine challenging his decision not to stop en route as planned. Instant South American equivalent to the P45.

[dmba]

Referencing Avianca 52...

...they were under the impression that they indeed HAD requested emergency assistance due to their word "priority" and the slightly different meaning it had in whatever Spanish related dialect those poor chaps spoke.

This crew also uses "priority", could it be that this means something like "emergency" in South America? Sure, native English speakers of course use their words of choice, but Spanish/Portuguese speakers maybe use "priority" when they are in Spanish/Portuguese speaking environments?

Anyone who could clarify this?
They were communicating in native Spanish. The crew and ground are Spanish speakers, not Portuguese. "Emergencia" would be emergency. I get the sense that he wasn't aware of the seriousness of the situation until it was too late or that as others have suggested, he was reluctant to admit its seriousness. Difficult to know.

[PlankBoy]

Malcolm Gladwell's excellent book "The Outliers" covers the Avianca / JFK crash due to fuel exhaustion and is extremely interesting - it's Ch7 "The Ethnic Theory of Plane Crashes".

Columbians register on Gert Hofstede's Power-Distance Index (respect for authority) as one of the highest - meaning that, as a culture, they have a high respect for perceived authority and this was considered a factor when they were negotiating to land at JFK (where ATC is generally pretty alpha bordering on aggressive).

One can imagine that some of us in this situation would head for the nearest runway regardless of what ATC are saying but, for others, it's not so easy. We'll wait for the reports but it looks like there's going to be a lot of Human Factors across the board nvolved in this one.

[fox niner]

The tanks were bone-dry, and you guys are discussing what he said on the way down?
We should be discussing:

- company structure
- lack of oversight by authorities
- authority gradient
- criminal investigation possibilities
- economic pressure

[Above The Clouds]

I am wondering if they had filed an en-route alternate to get around the initial fuel planning calculations to arrive with sufficent legal fuel at destination.

At the en-route diversion point the airline owner/pilot/captain decided there was sufficient fuel to continue to destination saving an en-route landing, however 'Murphy's Law' popped up with the Airbus fuel emergency at destination and an unplanned hold occurred using up those vital few kg's of fuel.

Just a thought.

[portmanteau]

I hope the SLF on here dont get the notion that ATC only reacts to the magic Mayday x 3 call as I can assure them that the merest mention by pilots of any sort of trouble sets their mental alarm bells ringing. As for the pilots, it is probable that 99.9% of them go through their entire careers without uttering Mayday for real, so cut them some slack when the day finally arrives. In this tragedy, on the speculation so far, its looks bad for the crew. The initial report will tell us the facts of the fuel situation. It could even have involved a fuel leak, who knows right now?

[safetypee]

The thread is drifting towards the valueless conclusion of 'human error'; whereas the real threat to the industry is the continuing number of 'organisational' accidents and those outside the current technical categorisation*, unexplained disappearance, terrorist action, or local war.
Although the industry might be enjoying the lowest 'technical' accident rate for a number of years, the public perception, often biased by tabloid news, may drift towards the notion of aviation still having significant risk. Many of these risks appear to beyond regulatory control, or put aside as not fitting the accident data category which safety activity might address.
The most significant threat to the industry is changing public perception, they provide the pay cheque. If we continue to promote the idea of 'human error', then the danger is a call to eliminate the human from the process, then what for a career in commercial aviation. Cf, the interest in autonomus cars, 'drones', irrespective of feasibility, practicality.

Lessons for the industry: - the continuing need for professionalism, (crew, operator, and regulatory organisation), expertise, planning, communication.

* e.g. Boeing accident summary.

[Nightstop]

I've got about 8,000 P1 on the 146 (albiet long ago), I recall we were restricted to FL260 due to the icing rollback issue on the ALF 502's fwiw. Low fuel was a tricky situation to deal with, especially if Holding (with turns always in one direction) fuel would tip from the higher to the lower wing tanks due to an always open high level weir, the type's anherdral added to the imbalance which had to be managed via cross feeding.

[4468]

At the en-route diversion point the airline owner/pilot/captain decided there was sufficient fuel to continue to destination saving an en-route landing, however 'Murphy's Law' popped up with the Airbus fuel emergency at destination and an unplanned hold occurred using up those vital few kg's of fuel.
Mmmmmm.

Final Reserve is used to combat 'Murphy's Law'. It's 30 minutes of fuel. No pilot in their right mind would PLAN to eat into it, when overflying an en-route fuel diversion, simply to reach their destination! A MAYDAY call was required as soon as it became apparent the aircraft would LAND with less than 30 minutes of fuel in it's tanks!

After all the other preceding HF/planning/cultural issues. That simple, single act would highly likely have saved many lives here.

[4468]

At the en-route diversion point the airline owner/pilot/captain decided there was sufficient fuel to continue to destination saving an en-route landing, however 'Murphy's Law' popped up with the Airbus fuel emergency at destination and an unplanned hold occurred using up those vital few kg's of fuel.
Mmmmmm.

Final Reserve is used to combat 'Murphy's Law'. It's used for NOTHING else! Ever!

It's 30 minutes of fuel. No pilot in their right mind would PLAN to eat into it, when overflying an en-route fuel diversion, simply to reach their destination! A MAYDAY call was required as soon as it became apparent the aircraft would LAND with less than 30 minutes of fuel in it's tanks!

After all the other preceding HF/planning/cultural issues. That simple, single act would highly likely have saved many lives here.

Having said all the above, it's not JUST a cultural/ethnicity issue. I'm led to believe Concorde once had 4 engines flame out on the taxi in at Heathrow, and was towed to stand! I could of course be wrong?

[Loose rivets]

I think it important the young lady in ATC is made aware of her (worldwide) peer's feelings about her performance. It may help a lot.

Perhaps someone local could make contact even if it was to just give an overview of this forum's relevant comments.

[Cazalet33]

Low fuel was a tricky situation to deal with, especially if Holding (with turns always in one direction) fuel would tip from the higher to the lower wing tanks due to an always open high level weir, the type's anherdral added to the imbalance which had to be managed via cross feeding.


OK, I'll bite the bait on your hook:

Why would an aircraft in a balanced turn run fuel from the higher wing to the lower wing in such a turn? How does the fuel in the higher wing 'know' that it is higher than the fuel in the other wing?:confused:

[RAT 5]

4468; I agree entirely, but we are looking at a third world operator with the airline owner/pilot/captain at the controls. Possibly he was flying that day because of the media attention, you get the picture.

I suspect he spent more time in the office than the cockpit. On a good day he could handle a normal flight. On this day he himself might have thrown the poo at the fan and perhaps had not enough familiarity with the a/c and its quirks to escape from the worst most critical situation. Plus, realising that you had seriously screwed up can cause uncontrollable panic.
I'd hate to have been the F/O, who might not have been able to overcome the ego of LHS, and who might have been saying, as it all went dark & quiet, "told you so. We should have landed at XYZ."

[RV8GGRVy]

This cause of this accident should be explained extremely clearly in due course once the analysis has been carried out professionally. There is no shortage of data and recordings etc.

However......

In my P46T single engine turbine, I had a simple Shadin Fuel Computer ($20,000 bit of kit) which was extremely accurate and throughout my flights the system monitored fuel consumption, remaining fuel on arrival, range and endurance. It was integrated with the Garmin 530s and flight plan, and minute by minute updated me estimated remaining fuel at destination. It was extremely accurate provided that the correct fuel reading was were entered prior to startup. Its accuracy could be checked every time I topped up the tanks. Throughout the flight I would check the data to ensure that the situation had not changed due to headwinds etc. My pilot management role was to switch on a regular basis from one wing to the other wing tank, as the fuel was only drawn from one wing at a time. So I could still run dry if I mismanaged the fuel by running one tank dry. But the SHADIN was extremely reassuring and when i flew the Northern Polar crossing West to East was a godsend on the long legs in terms of determining safety margins and power settings. The point is making is that if this type of gear is available in a single, there must be much better equipment in a 146.

On this route the consensus is that the aircraft was at best pushing its limits in terms of range. In this situation one would have thought that a good hour or even two hours out from destination, the crew would have been monitoring the fuel situation perhaps even more closely than usual. The CVR in due course might reveal if there was any discussion between the crew about endurance and safety margin. Hopefully the CVR will show whether this crew was even aware that the margin of safety of arrival was, it seems, at best becoming marginal ?

One assumes that if the crew was fully aware of the fuel situation they might have had ample time to issue either PAN or MAYDAY thereby escalating the situation with ATC. Or did some psychology prevent the crew from a declaration ? Or were the gauges not working ?

However it appears that the flight progressed without any communication with ATC re fuel and also that the crew allowed the aircraft to be put into the hold without escalation with ATC. Indeed rather than referring to a fuel issue, they referred initially, I believe, to an electrical problem - for reasons already covered in various posts . So even this did not alert ATC to a fuel problem.

Had a PAN or MAYDAY been declared, even one hour out, from then on one would expect that ATC would have expedited the descent and arrival. So it will be interesting to know in due course if the issue was raised earlier than we hear on the tape. The controller seemed to be pretty busy on other aircraft issues and cannot be psychic. The tape suggests that the real seriousness of the situation only became fully apparent when the aircraft (I understand unauthorised) left its given holding level because, (maybe ?) at that moment with no fuel the engines had failed and there was no alternative but to descend. Even then the captain's voice remained remarkably calm when his aircraft turned into a large glider and he informed ATC (finally) of his woes. (electrical failure and fuel starvation).

The polite "senorita" transmissions from the Lamia aircraft in the hold and in descent, at least in transcript, don't really give any sense of urgency until the the cry for vectors only a few miles out.

All will become clear in due course and it is easy to be a comfortable armchair observer trying, perhaps riskily, to read between the lines of a translated YOU TUBE transcript. But I feel very inclined to defend ATC lady in this situation. The media at present in some quarters are suggesting that the crash would not have happened had the plane not been put in the hold. This is a travesty as when the aircraft was asked to hold the ATC had not been informed of a fuel starvation issue, and secondly because the ATC was dealing with what she had thought was a more urgent issue, She had other things on her plate and the tape suggests that until very late on there was apparently little sense of emergency. I am fairly sure that if in my single I was out of fuel, in the dark over mountainous terrain and with very limited instrumentation (via torch) for the ILS approach and had a windmilling prop, I would be omitting the "senorita" bit. As I say all easy with perfect hindsight and I apologise to those who may dispute my view. As so often happens, the media is reporting on an ill informed and ill educated basis.

[AerocatS2A]

Or perhaps he flies all the time (they only had one airworthy jet) and was in the habit of running into final reserve, had never been bitten before and had become complacent. Feed tank low warnings come on, that's normal to him. Maybe he doesn't bother with the checklist at that point because he knows it's a F24 landing, pumps on and fuel feeds open etc. All very speculative of course, but the events could just as easily be the result of a complacent current pilot becoming habituated to very poor fuel management as it could be an un-current pilot being out of their depth.

[A0283]

@Above the Clouds #284 the airline owner/pilot/captain at the controls. Possibly he was flying that day because of the media attention, you get the picture.

We are not talking about an ordinary passenger flight. From a footballing culture point of view it transcends ordinary media attention. This team was and could have been writing football history. Wanting to deliver a 'perfect' flight without any additional transfers or delays would have been a verrry strong driver. A driver you imagine far stronger than ordinary commercial considerations. If the human factors discussion will be as in depth as one would expect, then the "football factor" will be discussed.

If so, then it would not be the first time that it was a factor. Earlier other cases mentioned pilots listening to football matches on their radio (Brazil) and traffic controllers watching matches on tv while behind their screen (Tenerife and others). This might be the first time though that this factor would be discussed in depth.

[Trim Stab]

fuel would tip from the higher to the lower wing tanks due to an always open high level weir, the type's anherdral added to the imbalance which had to be managed via cross feeding.

Why is that? If the aircraft was being flown accurately with the ball in the centre (whether manually or on AP), the lift and weight vectors in the turns would be perpendicular to the aircraft axis, so the fuel would behave exactly as if in straight and level flight.

[langleybaston]

QUOTE:

what is the difference in that and arriving at a 2 runway airport with final reserve plus a bit in hand (providing the weather at destination is well above limits as stated in my previous post)?

You don't need to be an ex-forecaster [as I am] to know how quickly good weather and a forecast of good weather can go badly wrong.
This is especially so with the very poor standards of forecasting and observing to be found in more than a few countries.

I find the concept of using a second runway as a diversion hair-raising beyond belief.

[RamirezPPL]

Another lurker here, I hardly ever post.

I agree with those saying what a good job the ATC did, she'll be distraught I imagine.

Am I the only person getting increasingly agitated by the media, including BBC radio, consistently still misreporting this.

A direct quote from the Guardian, but similar on the Beeb:
Just before going silent the pilot made a final plea to land: “Vectors, señorita. Landing vectors.”

The implication from all these media outlets being that ATC was somehow preventing them from landing, or that they unreasonably asked them to hold, when clearly by that stage the Pilot had no idea even where the runway was. There's no mention of the fact that as soon as the ATC realized the emergency, without the flight crew properly notifying, she got 2 other aircraft out of the way.

It feels like the tone is of a Pilot who made the sort of fuel slip-up that any pilot could have made, being killed with most of the passengers by an unsympathetic ATC. Completely the reverse.

[Design Engineer]

originally posted by klintE
Looking at the pictures of B-boxes...
FDR is Allied Signal with 25 hours of flight data.
And CVR is probably BASE SCR500
But they were in 2 versions: SCR500-030 and SCR500-120
First is recording last 30 minutes, and the second is recording last 120 minutes.
It would be better to hear more then 30 minutes I think.

I totally agree. 30 mins with recording over the previous section is of potentially ZERO use when looking at 'in flight upsets' that are recovered and the flight completed or diverted. A couple of Qantas incidents come to mind for example.

Modern solid state recorders have the capability to record staggering amounts of audio data.

A quick sum shows that a COTS 100GB solid state hard drive could retain over 10,000 hours of TEN channels of audio, allowing for seperate Comms channels as well as CAMs plus more, all in hi-fi quality in a package 2.5" by 3.5?" by about 3/8", so easily protected and that is a SMALL capacity drive by modern standards !

I have quite a big issue with this. Technology has way overtaken outdated standards in certain areas. It's something I'd like to raise in another thread perhaps. Much the same is true for FDRs.

[Volume]

I have quite a big issue with this.Many pilots would probably have an issue, if their management has the possibility to listen to all their conversation of the previous mounths...
It is like video recording of the cockpit, nobody denies that this is technically possible and can be incredibly useful. But nobody dares to mandate it for obvious reasons.
If data exists, it will be (mis)used.

Probably this will be just another case, where all the interesting details are not recorded. And that may well save some from very expensive lawsuits...

[Design Engineer]

@ Smott999

The FA reported gradual loss of light in the cabin.
Does that sound like battery power running down?

I'd hazard a guess at #1 or #4 engine spooling down along with its generator.

And if they got to nil battery power would they have any instruments at all?

Barometric only presumably and unlit.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

They must have had hydraulics and some electrical power as they lowered the gear and were able to use the radio.

Would they be able to lower the gear (apparently normally as can be heard on the ATC recording ["gear down"], not by use of an emergency procedure) with no engines running to provide hydraulic power?

[LiveryMan]

I'm having trouble visualising the crash sequence. The aerial shots show the tail section on the other side of the ridge, with a channel carved out of the trees going from narrow to wide downhill to where the main body of wreckage sits. The wings are upside down, but facing down hill. Looks like the plane hit with a considerable wing down angle and "landed" on it's back. Perhaps a stall or in the middle of a tight turn when they ran out of altitude?

[AerocatS2A]

They must have had hydraulics and some electrical power as they lowered the gear and were able to use the radio.

Would they be able to lower the gear (apparently normally as can be heard on the ATC recording ["gear down"], not by use of an emergency procedure) with no engines running to provide hydraulic power?

Battery power is enough for the radio. Comm 1 and Nav 1 are powered off the battery. Hydraulics is not required to lower the gear, gravity will do the job, however there is a DC pump powered by the battery that will provide enough hydraulics to fully extend the main gear if necessary. It is only used if greens are not achieved initially. Also the normal gear selector is not available at the emergency power level and so the emergency gear down lever needs to be used. That said, calling for "gear down" rather than a checklist procedure is not an unreasonable thing to do given that he was probably under a lot of stress at the time. He had maybe either forgotten that the normal selector won't work or he expected the FO to know enough to get the gear down using the emergency system.

[EstorilM]

In any event, that ATC transcript, conversion, audio, etc is damning.

Critical is the mention of "emergency fuel" which was NOT mentioned in the Avianca interview via the coms. Previously it was a "fuel problem" and "electrical problem" - the com mention of "emergency fuel" pretty much sums it up.

I'd also like to mention that (as others have said) I feel for the ATC controller BIG TIME. I'm not sure what her experience was, but she handled the situation adamantly from start to finish, dealing with MULTIPLE "emergency" or at least "priority" aircraft, at night, in difficult terrain, etc, plus getting aircraft in a hold back into the field. It probably went from a rather benign evening to complete chaos in no time, and she kept her cool - knowing that many lives were at stake (at least re: the LaMia a/c).

I just can't help but become even more frustrated about this however.

The mention of multiple fuel warnings (obviously, just flight management alone, right? Probably 30 min out as others have mentioned?) plus the ACTUAL hardware warnings of low feed pressure, plus many various errors etc relating to cavitation and the engines complaining once feed fuel / pressure is reduced or lost..

THEY KNEW about this even before they approached the field, before the Avianca flight requested priority, and before they entered the hold - they had already received fuel warnings and knew the risks. I mean technically they knew the risks when they did their paperwork on the ground. Just sitting up there in the cockpit with so many passengers in their hands, saying to themselves "well, we'll probably make it - like last time, right?" is inconceivable.

I'm sure factors which will be investigated include the fact that they had received the same fuel warnings before, probably 20 minutes out from Madellin in each case. They just learned to ignore it.

It's sad how long they attempted to hide things on approach, hold, etc.

From an investigation point of view - is anyone concerned about the maintenance of the batteries here? Was loss of transponder and some unaccounted for time perhaps an issue of terrain? Or does it appear that they may have lost batt power early? Considering the number of regs that have been ignored, that's not out of the question - the batteries aren't cheap and from what I understand, they were in the process of securing funding AND running their other RJ85s through hefty maintenance procedures.

[A0283]

@LiveryMan If the Co-Pilot was female, there must have been a third person in the cockpit.

While going through a number of video's one shows interviews apparently just before and during the flight. The 4-striper male captain/owner had been identified before. The 3-striper female FO (in the left seat during that interview - plane still on the ground). And a 2-striper male interviewed standing in the passenger cabin.

In another video or post there was a remark about a 'technical guy' (I think they later referred to him as one of the 6 survivors). The right role name probably lost in translation. Don't know if they meant flight engineer or a maintenance engineer taking the same flight.

POB/Passenger lists have already been published. Perhaps someone has checked those on the number of crew members and their roles.

A company with apparently only 1 plane flying taking a company maintenance engineer with it would not be a big surprise.

[A0283]

@LiveryMan I'm having trouble visualising the crash sequence.

Only part of the accident site is covered by photos. There are at least 5 areas and only 1 is really covered by photos at this stage.

The first (area1) is the most photographed area of the aft fuselage and whole or half wing, To its right is a low ridge where the UH60(s) land(s). There are no images from the right side (area2) of that low ridge as far as i have seen. On the left is a hollow (area3) with thinly spread debris of the plane. And on that left of that hollow a rise with spectators on it. Back up the high ridge there indeed appears to be a wide scar (area4) going all up to the crest of the high ridge. And on the other side and top of that high ridge (area5) lies what appears to be the tail and or maybe a piece of wing. These last two areas are only covered by videos as far as i know (of low quality). I have not seen any photo that would conclusively tell me where the cockpit and forward section landed.

Looking at that the plane most likely came from behind the high ridge. Hit the crest of that high ridge. Unknown at this stage what was left there. Substantial sections and components probably sliding down the ridge (zero photos of that). And the fuselage wing part somehow landing in its location and partially sliding up the side of the other side. And somehow part of loose debris thrown out and landing to the left of that. Still not clear to me if the scars on the heli ridge are from the crash or natural or made by the rescuers.

The position of the inverted wing (ref flaptrack fairings) and part of the aft fuselage (ref registration number) could be explained in at least two different ways. The first is that it flipped forward and over. But another might be that the combination slid forward with the 4 engine mounts keeping it in straight direction until the mounts dug into the upslope. The fuselage then breaking loose from the wing and sliding forward. And the wing flipping over. So the fuselage rolling over the wing. My impression at this time is that the last thing happend, reason for that is the aft fuselage being on top.

So at this stage we have a large number of photos but many many more would be required to understand how the plane came in and broke apart. Which is no surprise.

It is surprising though that anyone survived. Reasons for that might be low initial impact speed as well as luck during the break up sequence.

[taquechel]

Hello there,

I am wondering if they would be able to glide until the Rionegro airport from FL210 where the lack of fuel begin.

The airport is at 8 thousand feet. I dont know in which part of the holding the lack of fuel started, but they holding between 17 to 26 nm from the airport

My questions:

- why did the deployed the landing gear? they were 10 minutes away from the airport still. This would only elevate the drag
- why a descent so steep?
- they crashed only some meters away from the VOR, could they have mistaken it with the runway at night?
- If they really knew were the runway was, could they reach it with no fuel from FL210?


In the flight data you can see where the lack of fuel begins (its written "Pane Seca"). Velocity drops really fast but they maintain the altitude, then having to lower altitude to not stall.

https://s15.postimg.org/ltl8lyte3/La_Mia.png


and heres the fuselage near the VOR:

https://s11.postimg.org/llki6mbyr/adc4f9d0_09be_4d6a_846a_aad23b350d03.jpg

[LiveryMan]

@ A0283 (http://www.pprune.org/members/440631-a0283)

Interesting analysis.
I get the distinct impression the aircraft was flying in the direction that upside down wing is facing... ie from the photographic point of view: Down hill. Sounds like you think the opposite?

Looking at the photos again. Could that be the port wing on the other side of the hill then?

[EcoFox]

You do have the advantage of Spanish as a native tongue here - does he really declare a fuel emergency? To formally declare an emergency, the "Mayday mayday mayday" call would be necessary...
No, the crew never declared an emergency of any kind. They only used de euphemistic non standard term "priority". Even more, when they ran out of fuel, instead of telling ATC that they had no fuel, they said that they had a "complete electric failure... and fuel". Clearly, they were, even in that critical moment, reluctant to admit that their tanks were empty.

[A0283]

@LiveryMan ... too early for an analysis, just impressions and a lot of factual questions.

My first impression. With the heli ridge on your right the fuselage wing moving forward. With part of that being projected upward in the direction of the VOR (there is a significant scar going up). So the plane flying in the direction of the VOR as some suggested earlier.

Could be a wing yes. But the quality of the video that i saw was not good enough to say and i have not had the time to measure it. But looked larger than a control surface.

The fact that we have to discuss this shows how little information we have.

If the plane came from the other direction, the VOR side, that would imply that big parts of the plane whould have been thrown up and over the high ridge (if i understand you correctly). That might explain the multiple scars on the low ridge but the long scar going op the high ridge does not line up with that. Neither does the light debris spread over the hollow.

To summarize - at this stage we only have seen 1 of the 4 corners in the photos.

[Biggles78]

I was a professional pilot but did not graduate out of twin bug smashers.


What are the chances of all 4 engines suffering fuel starvation at the exact same time?

[Davidsa]

An interesting piece today in "El Deber", of Santa Cruz:-

Por 5 observaciones no debía volar | Noticias de Bolivia y el Mundo - EL DEBER (http://www.eldeber.com.bo/suplementos/observaciones-no-debia-volar.html)

RIP

David

[dmba]

ATC controller has released an emotional statement (http://s2.glbimg.com/w87Gg0vEOfy4E3YAq0Iifi99G-U=/fit-in/1080x1080/s2.glbimg.com/PBVmMHzNBKymAjgJe_f6fTTIx54=/0x0:750x913/750x913/s.glbimg.com/es/ge/f/original/2016/12/01/carta.jpg), in Spanish

[foresight]

An interesting piece today in "El Deber", of Santa Cruz:-

Por 5 observaciones no debía volar | Noticias de Bolivia y el Mundo - EL DEBER (http://www.eldeber.com.bo/suplementos/observaciones-no-debia-volar.html)

RIP

David
Astonishing from El Deber in Bolivia.
In short the submitted flight plan shows en route time of 4:22 and endurance of,guess what, 4:22.
When the authority questioned it, the despachador told her not to worry, they would make it.
Haven't time to do a full translation, but well worth reading the whole report.

[thcrozier]

ATC controller has released an emotional statement (http://s2.glbimg.com/w87Gg0vEOfy4E3YAq0Iifi99G-U=/fit-in/1080x1080/s2.glbimg.com/PBVmMHzNBKymAjgJe_f6fTTIx54=/0x0:750x913/750x913/s.glbimg.com/es/ge/f/original/2016/12/01/carta.jpg), in Spanish

She's thanking everyone who has sent her messages of support from "every corner of the country".

[aterpster]

Biggles78:

hat are the chances of all 4 engines suffering fuel starvation at the exact same time?

Within seconds, as opposed to minutes.

[procede]

A video with an interview with the (female) pilot just before the crash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZJ3YwPO3E8
Very sad.

[cappt]

My questions:

- why did the deployed the landing gear? they were 10 minutes away from the airport still. This would only elevate the drag
- why a descent so steep?
- they crashed only some meters away from the VOR, could they have mistaken it with the runway at night?
- If they really knew were the runway was, could they reach it with no fuel from FL210?


1) Unknown, it's possible they (thought) they were diving for the runway or VMC flight conditions (get out of the clouds after losing electrical).
2) See above.
3)Possibly.
4) Yes.

[T28B]

A video with an interview with the (female) pilot just before the crash: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZJ3YwPO3E8
Very sad. Procede: Do you mean just before the flight? The way your put that, it can be construed as though the she was being interview just before the plane went down and crashed. (I don't think you meant it that way).

[Longtimer]

Colombia's CAA confirms that crashed Avro operated without mandatory fuel reserves

| 








01 December, 2016
| BY: Rainer Uphoff
| Madrid


Colombia’s Civil Aviation Authority has officially confirmed that the Bolivian BAe Avro RJ85 operated by Lamia crashed near Medellin with empty fuel tanks..

During a press conference held on 30 November, Aerocivil’s Secretary of Aviation Safety Freddy Bonilla assures that "the aircraft did not operate with the mandatory fuel reserves mandated by international regulations”.

He said that Lamia’s flight plan had established as the alternative airport Bogota, which is slightly less distant from de Santa Cruz (Bolivia) than Medellin, indicating, however, that “the aircraft had not loaded sufficient fuel for an eventual diversion back to the alternative airport, nor for the internationally established 35min fuel reserve”.

Bonilla also confirmed that the actual distance between Santa Cruz and Medellin on the route followed by the Lamia flight was 1,588nm. “We will investigate why Lamia authorised a flight, which [taking into account the mandatory reserves] was beyond the range of the aircraft [1,600 NM]”.

He also confirmed the authenticity of the ATC recording that had been filtered to FlightGlobal and some other media, but said that he could "not confirm if the recording was complete, resembling the exact timing of the sequence of events.”

“We are working with specialists from Bolivia, Brazil, the UK and the US to reach the final conclusions as soon as possible”, he concluded.

Previously, Bolivia’s Civil Aviation Authority DGAC had declared almost immediately after the accident that Lamia had its AOC in order, the aircraft maintenance record correct and both pilots' licenses up-to-date.

Incidentally, DGAC's director of aircraft registries, Gustavo Vargas Villegas, is the son of Lamia’s owner, Gustavo Vargas Gamboa. In addition to establishing any aircraft's operational specifications as part of the registry process, one of the attributions of Vargas Villegas’ role at the DGAC is the safe custody of all documents and informations related to any Bolivian registered aircraft involved in an incident or accident

[DownWest]

Can't help but think that the reluctance to announce a Mayday, might have been because the resulting investigation would have cost them their AOC.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<they crashed only some meters away from the VOR, could they have mistaken it with the runway at night?>>

Not sure how that would be possible, unless they have unusual lights around the VOR?

[22/04]

May be irrelevant in the greater scheme of things but if they had brim filled the aircraft before departure and given the payload would they have exceeded the MTOW

[HDP]

The flight plan has been leaked in South American press. Can anyone translate?

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/informeaasana-161201155615/95/por-5-observaciones-avin-de-lamia-no-deba-volar-1-638.jpg?cb=1480607884

http://image.slidesharecdn.com/hojaderuta-161201155615/95/informe-de-aasana-y-foto-de-la-hoja-de-ruta-de-lamia-1-638.jpg?cb=1480607837

[DaveReidUK]

Usual FR24 caveats apply - in particular there are a whole bunch of missing data points at the entry to the hold, which I haven't attempted to interpolate.

http://www.avgen.com/LMI2933.jpg

RNG is the Rio Negro VOR, adjacent to the crash site.

[DownWest]

The item 3 is were they are arguing about the flight time verses the range of the a/c.
Not to worry, it is all OK.......We will reach it fine

[meekmok]

From the flight plan:
EET 4 hrs 22 mins
Endurance 4 hrs 22 mins

no problem there....

[deadheader]

If the leaked transcript above is true/genuine, we are looking at criminal behaviour extending far beyond the cockpit of this flightdeck. How tragic.

[DownWest]

In the first paper, Celia is reporting 5 comments about the flight plan and her conversation with AEREA Lamia dispatcher, raising her concerns about the alt destination and their F/plan to fly right at the limit of the range.
The dispatcher is telling her that they will manage it.
So how come we are told that the AL management say that they thought there was a planned fuel stop?

(I speak reasonable Portuguese and can read Spanish, but will leave the full translation to some one with better nuances)

[Smott999]

I'm still feeling that given the steep descent plus wheels down, he thought the RNG VOR was in fact the runway beacon.
Even tho ATC informed him he was 9 miles out.
He perhaps had DME set to RNG and so thought he was nearly on the runway...?

[dmba]

Procede: Do you mean just before the flight? The way your put that, it can be construed as though the she was being interview just before the plane went down and crashed. (I don't think you meant it that way).

Yes, this was a tv interview just before they left, including interviews with the coaching staff of the football team, with the crew etc.

[thcrozier]

Last sentence of Section 3, where a somewhat heated discussion of endurance and flight time parity is taking place:

Celia: "Then I didn't insist any more, upon seeing the obstinacy (stubborn attitude) of the dispatcher."

[Pseudo Pro]

Here it is: :uhoh:

Subject: Notification about received FPL LMI2399

I inform that in date 2111162010 [note: ddmmyyhhmm] Mr. Alex Quispe (+), Lamia's Dispatcher, presented himself to the OF. ARO-AIS/SLVR presenting the Flight Plan FM/SLVR TO/SKRG (Rio Negro, Colombia).

I stated 5 observations about the FPL (NO ERRORS IN THE FLIGHT PLAN):

1. SID - Not provided.
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: Please, Mrs., add NOMAJ DCT VIR. (Didn't do that, asking to request at TWR).

2. ALTN AD: I pointed several times and asked to add another one (there's just one ALTN, SKBO)
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: This is what the Captain told me. Please leave it as is, Mrs. Celia

3. AUTONOMY: (EET same as Autonomy)
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: This is it, this is what they and Captain told me.
ANSWER: ESP. ARO-AIS: This is not right, please check it throughly and update the flight plan.
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: These are the data, Mrs. Celia, these are the data that I was given for the FPL.
ANSWER: ESP. ARO-AIS: But the EET and Autonomy are just the same, you have mistaken it and you don't want to change it
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: No, Mrs. Celia. This is the autonomy that I was given, it is good enough.
ANSWER: ESP. ARO-AIS: No, because this the same as EET.
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: Yes, this is it as we filed, we will fly in less time, don't worry. This is it. Keep calm, this is fine. Leave it the way it is.
ANSWER: ESP. ARO-AIS: No longer insists, given the dispatcher's obstinacy.

4 - Dispatcher's name (just the signature)
ANSWER: DISPATCHER: Ah, yea, but here is my licence number.

- After these and other observations, the dispatcher was gone, pointing that, yes; there were due changes in the FPL, specially these 2 OBS (ALTN and AUT) and bring me another FPL when coming back to check the AIS MET and NOTAM information
- He was back after aprox. 30 minutes collecting the flight information (MET-ARO AIS) and sustained that everything was just the same and there was no other changes in the FPL.
Given that answer, I expressed my discomfort stating that several times the dispatchers does not takes our observations seriously.

NOTE:
FYI, there were at work:
MET Circuitry: Mr. Javier Gunter
COM Circuitry: Mr. Roger Roca.

Celia Castedo Monasterio

[bloom]

Is it just me. If I was that low on fuel and I had declared an emergency, I would do what was necessary. I would not care about separation, clearances, holding whatever. Dump it in the grass next to the previous emergency. Nearest to the equipment.

[broadreach]

The El Deber article ("Una tragedia que se pudo evitar", https://social.shorthand.com/diarioeldeber/3yfgFr9Jbe/una-tragedia-que-se-pudo-evitar) contains the Flight Plan and a statement by ViroViro dispatcher Celia Castedo Monasterio. If Celia's account is accurate what comes across is a cavalier attitude on the part of Bolivian flight crews generally to the authority of despatch. Celia stated her concerns and instructed LaMia crew member Quispe to come back with a corrected flight plan when he returned in half an hour to get the met report. When he did return there was no change; Celia's report says:
A esta respuesta mostré mi molestia diciéndole referente a que muchas veces los despachadores no toman en serio nuestras observaciones
"To this reply I showed my annoyance, referring to the frequency with which crew filing flight plans fail to take our observations seriously."

[nribs]

That memo from Celia (if true and verified) is absolutely the silver bullet in this.

I'm too lazy to translate verbatim, but she makes very clear that route time was equal to endurance. They go back and forth, he says "no worries, we'll make it just fine".

Celia's poor life is ruined....

[patowalker]

The controller, who is also a journalist, has been threatened by idiots, who seem to think she is in some way responsible for the accident.

Here is my free translation of the sad part of her letter.

"Unfortunately, my journalist colleagues have caused ignorant people, unfamiliar with this occupation and above all ignorant of the procedures, to threaten my physical integrity and personal tranquility, so I have been looking at ways to solve this situation and hope to discuss the matter with the directors of our organisation."

The first part of the letter to her ATC colleagues is thanking them for their support and solidarity, and explaning how she is convinced she did everything humanly possible to save the lives of those on the aircraft.

La desgarradora carta de la controladora aérea de la tragedia (http://www.semana.com/nacion/articulo/carta-de-la-controladora-aerea-de-la-tragedia-de-chapecoense-yaneth-molina/507605)

[Smott999]

So are people likely going to jail? Or charged w homicide?
Not to get hyperbolic, I don't know the S American culture in re aviation.

But this seems absolutely criminal.

[Smott999]

And best wishes to the ATC controller, clearly an exemplary professional in this tragic circumstance.
Here's hoping she has the strength and support to get through this OK.

[wheelsright]

More importantly the airline must be thoroughly investigated. Presumably they should be grounded and all of their records should be seized as soon as possible to prevent tampering.

[aterpster]

bloom:

Is it just me. If I was that low on fuel and I had declared an emergency, I would do what was necessary. I would not care about separation, clearances, holding whatever. Dump it in the grass next to the previous emergency. Nearest to the equipment.
Exactly!

[Alloy]

From what I remember of flying the 146-200 many years ago, with a TOB of 77, you would not be wanting to fly much more than 2 1/2 hours plus reserves to remain comfortable. The RJ85 was not that much more efficient, 4:22 endurance sounds very, very optimistic to me unless this aircraft had a singnificant increase on the 146-200's MTOW of 42T.

[guynwah]

Not a pilot, so my Spanish is better than the details, but the conversation from the transcript is noticeably heated, with Celia pointedly rejecting the flight plan ("consulte bien y cambie el plan de vuelo", approximately "think twice and change the flight plan" and washing her hands of it and insulting the dispatcher ("ya no insiste mas al ver la terquedad del despachador", "terco" exactly "stubborn" as one might say of a donkey). She went on in part 4 to criticize the dispatcher for promising to change the flight plan and then a half-hour later coming back stating they would make no changes ("me indico que se mantenia todo igual"), finally stating this answer demonstrates her complaint that dispatchers "many times" do not take their advice seriously.

Whether this amounts to culpable recklessness or dereliction of duty on anybody's part is for higher-ups to say. To me, it certainly seems to do just that.

[vicoastdog]

More importantly the airline must be thoroughly investigated. Presumably they should be grounded and all of their records should be seized as soon as possible to prevent tampering.

Well they've effectively done that as this was the only plane they had that was airworthy, and the captain was apparently the company owner.

[22/04]

Thank you alloy data I have found says 42,185 kg so not much change

[vmandr]

strange flight plan ( strangely accepted by atc there )

EET 04:22 (takeoff to landing)
ENDURANCE 04:22

i think, if endurance is(was) correct and match eet, it means NIL RESERVE FUEL :ugh:

[DaveReidUK]

The RJ85 was not that much more efficient, 4:22 endurance sounds very, very optimistic to me unless this aircraft had a singnificant increase on the 146-200's MTOW of 42T.

The RJ85's certificated MTOW is (depending on mod state) 3,500-4,000 lb higher than the 146-200.

[Chronus]

Hold at FL210, MSA on all sectors above 12,000 feet and rwy elevation at 7000 feet fuel exhaustion would have confronted the crew with the attendant problems of loss of pressurisation. Could the the earlier speculative posts of confusion with the VOR for the rwy relate to onset of hypoxia, depending of course on exactly when the engines flamed out. Looking at the timing given by the ATC recording, it is conceivable they may have remained above 18,000 feet for the greater part of the final six minutes.

[Smott999]

I believe I read that the FO "crew" was a part time model, daughter of someone important, a private pilot, and NOT rated on type. Sisy Arias IIRC.
Hope she wasn't in the LHS.
But with the way this is shaping up, no surprise if she was.

[Smott999]

I'm still confused re the woman who objected to the filed flight plan, and who was subsequently ignored.

What was her position ? Did she have authority to reject/cancel the flight? It would seem not.

Very confused about that portion of the story. Seems you can file an illegal plan, get told it's illegal, and basically say "piss off" with no repercussions?

Other than the crash of your aircraft of course.

But what was her official role such that she seemed to have responsibility to verify the plan, but zero authority to reject it?

[smith]

I guess the guy didn't want an interview with no biscuits by not declaring a fuel emergency.

[FlightDetent]

Smot999: from what I read here over the 5 or so last pages, she seems be an ARO officer. Now, in my country the ATC staff used to be referred to as "dispatchers" for generations until about 20 yrs ago. Maybe this is the source of confusion?

As far as the authority of ARO not to file formally valid, yet logically corrupt FPL ... I do not know, and would be interested too. Somehow I feel chances are slim, especially as in many countries over the world these are submitted and validated online.

[icemanalgeria]

guys it was her first flight on the RJ she was probably on the Jump seat observing the other first officer in the RH seat and the Captain in the LH seat as PF .
I believe I read that the FO "crew" was a part time model, daughter of someone important, a private pilot, and NOT rated on type. Sisy Arias IIRC.
Hope she wasn't in the LHS.
But with the way this is shaping up, no surprise if she was.

[A0283]

The stamp with signature on the filed flight plan says "ARO AIS AASANA" at Viru Viru International. That stamp is placed under the header Additional and not under the header Accepted.

So the immediate questions are:
a. what is the authority of ARO AIS AASANA,
b. could the person placing the stamp withhold the stamp,
c. have there been discussions like ms Celia Monasterio had, and what was the outcome of those,

Question a. should be easy. Point b. requiring a bit more digging. And point c. requiring an indepth investigation.

In an in-depth investigation you would also look at the placement of the stamp. Is it a valid form (it is an FAA form by the way) with that offside placement.

Have to note that it is still very early in the investigation and that this issue is only a small piece in a very large puzzle. The safety investigation will certainly not go beyond factfinding at this stage. But what officials have said till now certainly points to something like a workgroup or sub WG focussing on the 'administrative side'.

[thcrozier]

Regarding vocabulary, I think when Celia (apparently a government or at least airport employee) uses the word "dispatcher" she is referring to whomever at the company is filing the flight plan. That person essentially discarded her observations, told her to calm down, said "this is the way we do it, we've done it before, I'll take care of it, it will be shorter than 4:22, so shut up."

What her legal authority was is unclear, but she ultimately gave in to the badgering of someone who for some reason she perceived as having superior authority.

[broadreach]

Smott, I'm guessing that you know it takes a long time for the agreements that countries sign up to - e.g. in ICAO terms - to filter down to the rank and file. So, yes, you can go crash wherever you like, with dispatchers' reluctant blessing.

Claudia may have had legal authority to prevent the LaMia flight departure but, in practice, not. The dichotomy will probably play out over the next few days and I'm sure it will rock the boat in Bolivia; seems heads rolling in DGAC already.

[vmandr]

@Smott

the ARO can refuse acceptance of FPL - if they have a reason, sometimes other than strictly aeronautical - which means no clearance and ultimately no flight, iaw Annex 11 and relevant State AIP / rules.
in Europe IFPS (Eurocontrol) regularly rejects submitted FPLs for various reasons.
think of ARO as ATC first line of...defense :)

[Davidsa]

Smott, Broadreach:-

Possibly an element of machismo at play here?

[Midland63]

[guys it was her first flight on the RJ she was probably on the Jump seat observing the other first officer in the RH seat and the Captain in the LH seat as PF .


Ah, so Sisy wasn't actually the FO, they were just hamming it up for the photo ops with the footballers, right? That sounds more logical.

[sAx_R54]

It appears also that commerical aviation rights granting 'freedom of the air' between Bolivia and Brazil may have been a causal factor behind this avoidable tragedy and the pushing of max. air frame range. Brazil and Bolivia do not have agreement in place that permits 6th freedom rights to Bolivian operators.

[Smott999]

172, so the guy who browbeat Celia about how totally safe his plan was, then refused to sign his name?
No dummy, he.

I hope they find that guy.

This is needless loss of 71 lives in a criminal act IMO.

[enola-gay]

This flight plan has not been accepted at Santa Cruz. The acceptance box is empty. The ARO has stamped the Additional Information box, which I suspect gets her off the hook and indicates the plan is noted but not accepted.

But still they went, like the charge of the light brigade into the valley of death, lions led by donkeys.

I wonder if football pressure was at work, the team wanting an early bed in Medellin before the Wednesday match. Keep going Captain , we will be ok with Fergie time for this leg.

[nribs]

It will be telling in the investigation if Celia ran this up the command chain (whatever that may be) after being snubbed twice by the now departed Mr. Quispe. The likelihood is that this was par for the course for this outfit and that yes, 9 out of 10, they would make it there 'tranquilo'.

Very sad that this women will have to live with this for the rest of her life.

I am also very curious how many other individuals came across the FPL during the course of the flight? The likelihood that "if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me" mentality that is oh so common to south america is again at the forefront of administrative shirking in this catastrophe.

[vmandr]

@enola-gay

if tower cleared them, means ARO had sent the AFTN message to tower and the downline stations informing all of the flight, meaning the flight plan was accepted despite
stamp & signature in wrong box ( provided the fpl we see is original/latest and unaltered).

[ATC Watcher]

Just read the 2 leaked papers . ( I can read Spanish) The first one is a mail from the ARO to her superiors about 4 observations regarding taking off with an incorrectly filed PLN. If 2 items are without consequences ( e.g no SID and name Dispatcher missing ), but 2 are : Autonomy and ALT AD.
The conversation is interesting as it show kind of bullying of the ARO by the dispatcher ( whose full name is on the first line of the memo BTW)
Good for her that she did this. She probably can sleep a bit better as a result but must be quite shaken as well. Another person I think that would need help.

The second looks like the actual PLN, signed by a license number and stamped as received , and transmitted . As I see it , the stamp is there to confirm it has been received ( date and time ) and will be transmitted further. nothing more.

ARO refusing a PLN is very common in Europe ( and I guess the USA) and definitively done by the IFPS in Europe. But this is not the case everywhere in the world, and in this case, if the other reports are correct , it would seem the airline belonged to the father of the CAA Director , so most probably the employer of the ARO . I also do not think there are many Bolivian airlines in the Country. So Refusing this particular PLN is most probably a bit more difficult there.

[thcrozier]

I hope they find that guy.

That appears to be Señor Alex Quispe, as noted in the first sentence of Celia's report.

[katekebo]

From the information in this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-gspJzK6uM

it appears that they could have landed in Medellin with ~10 min of fuel to spare IF they followed a direct approach without any delays or hold (no traffic, no weather). It was because they were placed on a holding pattern due to Viva Colombia FC8170 emergency what sealed their fate.

They probably underestimated the gravity of the situation and thought they had a few more minutes left when they initially contacted Medellin ATC. If only they had declared fuel emergency as soon as they initiated descent instead of asking for priority AFTER being placed on a hold pattern the outcome could have been totally different.

I can understand their logic of not wanting to land to refuel in Bogota. They probably believed they had a little bit more fuel left, and they were expecting light to no traffic, what would allow them direct approach to Medellin. They knew they would be landing with with very little fuel (~15-20 min) left, but in their minds this wasn't necessarily a "red hot" emergency. They were under time pressure (to allow the players to have a good night sleep before an important match) and the Captain / Owner wasn't eager to spend money on landing fees in Bogota (in the end it was his personal money at play).

Very unprofessional (especially for a commercial crew), but I bet many pilots have landed with less than 10 min of fuel left without declaring an emergency (and kept it secret to themselves).

[WHBM]

It would be good for a competent aviation journalist to do a bit of research about Lamia. In Europe, both BAe and Cityjet, source of the aircraft, must have had some dealings with them.

They seem to have started up in Venezuela, and about 4 years ago bought four BAe RJ85 which were surplus at Cityjet in Ireland. These progressively worked through a range of registrations, first offshore in Aruba, then in Venezuela, and finally in Bolivia. Reported that the accident aircraft was physically owned by the Venezuelan company and leased to the Bolivian one, same name but some different shareholding. Attempts at scheduled operation had fallen through, and they dropped back to charter only. There aren't many RJ operators worldwide, but there is another in Bolivia called Ecojet who have operated for the last few years as well.


Apparently of Lamia's fleet of four only the accident aircraft had remained in service, the others being scattered withdrawn around South America, so their financials cannot have been great. It would be interesting to learn just how they managed to pick up such a charter - there are reports they had flown other soccer clubs, again not ones from their home country. Their chief pilot and part-owner is reported in command of the accident flight. I presume nothing is flying under their name now.

[nribs]

That appears to be Señor Alex Quispe, as noted in the first sentence of Celia's report.

Hey went down with the A...C

[HighAndFlighty]

I hope they find that guy.

That appears to be Señor Alex Quispe, as noted in the first sentence of Celia's report.

Señor Alex Quispe was amongst the deceased:

Boliviana sobrevive a tragedia del accidente aéreo de Chapecoense | ATB Digital (http://www.atb.com.bo/seccion/sociedad/boliviana-sobrevive-tragedia-del-accidente-a%C3%A9reo-de-chapecoense)

Entre los tripulantes bolivianos a cargo de la aeronave, fallecieron ocho personas: Miguel Quiroga, Ovar Goyti, Sisy Arias (hija del periodista Jorge Arias), Alex Quispe, Gustavo Encina, Erwin Tumiri, Ángel Lugo y el asistente de vuelo Romel Vacaflores.

Mr Google Translate tells me this says "Among the Bolivian crew in charge of the aircraft, eight people died: Miguel Quiroga, Ovar Goyti, Sisy Arias (daughter of journalist Jorge Arias), Alex Quispe, Gustavo Encina, Erwin Tumiri, Angel Lugo and flight attendant Romel Vacaflores."

[mary meagher]

Part of any investigation by the UK AAIB is a report on the physical condition of the aircrew. The TV interviews before takeoff display a party atmosphere; I presume that a p.m. is planned to exclude any suspicion of alcohol being involved.

[twochai]

By the way, the company name, "La Mia",would be translated as "Mine", referring to a female object.

[RatherBeFlying]

Perhaps previous flights "worked" with a straight in descent at flight idle. It would be interesting to see the previous fuel upload numbers at Medillin:eek:

We glider folk will do straight in final glides with tight margins. Sometimes they do not work according to plan, but in daylight we just pick a field - not a good plan in the dark in a heavy:mad:

[thcrozier]

http://www.atb.com.bo/seccion/sociedad/boliviana-sobrevive-tragedia-del-accidente-aéreo-de-chapecoense

From ATB Digital:

"Alex Richard Quispe Garcia, era despachador de vuelo de LaMia, tenía 39 años. Su formación como despachador fue realizada en La Paz, curso sus estudios secundarios en Uyuni, en el Colegio Nacional Antonio Quijarro, donde se destaco jugando fútbol. Estaba casado con Flora Tarqui Ávila y tenía un hijo. "

http://www.atb.com.bo/seccion/sociedad/boliviana-sobrevive-tragedia-del-accidente-aéreo-de-chapecoense

[broadreach]

Mary M, you can probably eliminate alcohol altogether. It would not have been allowed in a high level Brazilian football environment, least of all with a few dozen journalists watching. I'd wager blood alcohol content in the PM wil result in nil, crew and pax.

[noflynomore]

At what altitude are they said to have deployed landing gear? I can't see a reference to it anywhere (due, no doubt, to just not finding it)

[AerocatS2A]

The RJ85's certificated MTOW is (depending on mod state) 3,500-4,000 lb higher than the 146-200.

Yes. Some are 43,998 kg. 77 POB plus full tanks shouldn't pose any take-off weight problems.

[cappt]

t would be good for a competent aviation journalist to do a bit of research about Lamia. In Europe, both BAe and Cityjet, source of the aircraft, must have had some dealings with them.

Interesting China-Venezuela link and lots of questions has been posted up earlier.

https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin/2016/11/29/chavismo-corruption-dark-past-lamia-airlines/

http://www.pprune.org/9594371-post151.html

[Lonewolf_50]

At what altitude are they said to have deployed landing gear? I can't see a reference to it anywhere (due, no doubt, to just not finding it)
The FDR information may be able to determine that.

[Moody Shrew]

According to a translation of this site:
Despachador de Lamia estaba advertido sobre problemas en plan de vuelo - El Colombiano (http://m.elcolombiano.com/despachador-de-lamia-estaba-advertido-sobre-problemas-en-plan-de-vuelo-XI5486101)

"At a press conference held on Thursday morning, Milton Claros, Minister of Public Works of Bolivia, announced the suspension of several directors of the Administration of Airports and Auxiliary Services for Air Navigation (Aasana) and of the General Directorate of Aeronautics Civil (Dgac) of that country, under the pretext of giving transparency to the internal investigation. He did not specify how many would be affected by the measure.

According to the report of the local daily El Deber, Claro also reported on the suspension of air operator certificate enterprise services Lamia (with which counted since July 2015).


He said that the hypothesis about the lack of fuel that caused the electrical fault in the plane is "subjective", and asked to await the results of the official study of the case."

[Carbon Bootprint]

It would be good for a competent aviation journalist to do a bit of research about Lamia.It's a story right up William Langewiesche's alley. He did a couple of comprehensive pieces for Vanity Fair about both AF447 (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash) and the Gol/Legacy mid-air (http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2009/01/air_crash200901). He has extensive ties to Brazil, and I suppose it's only a matter of time before the real extent of this mess is exposed in VF.

By the way, according to the BBC, LaMia's AOC has been suspended (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38173708). It seems pointless since they don't seem to have any operational capability left, but perhaps this is a precursor to more severe legal action. In any case, a few days late, 71 lives short. :ugh:

[DaveReidUK]

Yes. Some are 43,998 kg. 77 POB plus full tanks shouldn't pose any take-off weight problems.

Though a bit of digging around suggests that when the aircraft in question was flying for CityJet it was certificated at 42,184 kg (93,000 lb).

So unless it had the higher-weight (97,000 lb) mods embodied subsequently, the lower weights would presumably still apply.

Having said that, I haven't seen any suggestion that the aircraft departed with less than full tanks - the loadsheet would make interesting reading.

[HighAndFlighty]

It's a story right up William Langewiesche's alley. He did a couple of comprehensive pieces for Vanity Fair about both AF447 (http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash) and the Gol/Legacy mid-air (http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2009/01/air_crash200901). He has extensive ties to Brazil, and I suppose it's only a matter of time before the real extent of this mess is exposed in VF.

By the way, according to the BBC, LaMia's AOC has been suspended (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-38173708). It seems pointless since they don't seem to have any operational capability left, but perhaps this is a precursor to more severe legal action. In any case, a few days late, 71 lives short. :ugh:

The same article says the aircraft was partly owned by the pilot!! Curious and curiouser.

[Rodney Rotorslap]

the loadsheet would make interesting reading.Hopefully the person who leaked the flight plan will oblige.

[pilotmike]

Nightstop wrote:I've got about 8,000 P1 on the 146 (albiet long ago), I recall we were restricted to FL260 due to the icing rollback issue on the ALF 502's fwiw. Low fuel was a tricky situation to deal with, especially if Holding (with turns always in one direction) fuel would tip from the higher to the lower wing tanks due to an always open high level weir, the type's anherdral added to the imbalance which had to be managed via cross feeding.
It is incredible that people claiming such high experience - as a captain! - can totally misunderstand the physics of flight so badly.

Does the contributor honestly believe this nonsense, or are they just trying for a cheap laugh?

Did he ever try to explain to Bob Hoover that the video of him pouring the iced tea was impossible, and we were unwitting victims of a cruel hoax? Unbelievable!

[dmba]

Part of any investigation by the UK AAIB is a report on the physical condition of the aircrew. The TV interviews before takeoff display a party atmosphere; I presume that a p.m. is planned to exclude any suspicion of alcohol being involved.
Not sure what football team would be getting drunk on the way to the biggest match in their history. Celebratory, happy atmosphere yes, party? I can't see it.

[FIRESYSOK]

The most surprising thing about this thread is the lack of understanding of Latin culture. Larger operators, sure, they're mostly legit...but this one-horse show with a pretty private-pilot girl filmed in the left seat prior to departure wearing three stripes; pilot/owner selfies all over social media throwing up gang signs, etc.....this disaster should come as no surprise whatsoever. And I mean it was probably long overdue.

[Romeo_Fox]

It seems like declaring an emergency could have saved the day. I'm looking into exactly this topic for quite a while now and it seems there is very little knowledge about why pilots seem so reluctant to declare.

Although in this case there are quite a few "obvious" reasons why the owner/pilot did not declare, does anyone know of some proper research / reports why (also GA) pilots do not declare, when they clearly need a maximum of help.

[taquechel]

repeated text

[barry lloyd]

FIRESYSOK:

:ok:

One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.

[thcrozier]

The most surprising thing about this thread is the lack of understanding of Latin culture. Larger operators, sure, they're mostly legit...but this one-horse show with a pretty private-pilot girl filmed in the left seat prior to departure wearing three stripes; pilot/owner selfies all over social media throwing up gang signs, etc.....this disaster should come as no surprise whatsoever. And I mean it was probably long overdue.

Thanks for saying it. I've been holding back because I live in California.

[svhar]

I flew for several months in Colombia. There are always c/b's around that cause delays and it never entered my mind to depart with minimum fuel only. ATC in Colombia is excellent, as can be heard on the tape.

[AerocatS2A]

42.2 is probably fine as well.

[Boxter]

Cost Cutting Company.
The RJs that they operated where stored at Norwich for a considerable time. I was contacted re Ferrying the aircraft to Venezuela.
They would not allow the aircraft to have a shake down flight before the ferry, as they deemed it not necessary. After many weeks they shipped in their own crew to take the aircraft. They could not operate the GNS nav computer, they dispatched with a fuel stop in Glasgow.
After refuelling in Glasgow and putting in copious amounts of oil in to one of the engines they dispatched for Iceland, surprise surprise loss of oil in the engine required a shutdown and return to the UK.

Following flight had dangerous goods on board, MOR I believe was submitted by the maintainance company, plus fines from Canada and the USA for transiting their airspace with dangerous goods on board.
The company representatives who came over to the U.K. Where very pushy and would not listen to any one.
A very tragic preventable accident.

[FixClrEnt]

It seems like declaring an emergency could have saved the day. I'm looking into exactly this topic for quite a while now and it seems there is very little knowledge

As mentioned earlier, the cultural issues are probably very relevant. However, whilst not agreeing with it, I can see why some aircrew may be tempted not to push out a Mayday when they see their FMS-generated landing fuel fractionally lower than their calculated final reserve figure. What I can't understand is how a crew could accept any instruction to 'hold' when they have less than half of the stipulated final reserve figure remaining in the tanks!

That said, if they had regularly landed on fuel minimums, did they perhaps think the fuel remaining was a tad more than it actually was!

[RV8GGRVy]

‘IT’S YOUR FAULT THEY DIED!’ Colombia plane crash: Airport employee accused of blaming passengers on following plane for Chapecoense jet crashing and killing 71

The doomed flight was denied an emergency landing due to a second emergency at the same time

AN AIRPORT employee allegedly told passengers on board another plane which landed before the tragic Chapecoense jet that the crash was their fault.

The pilot of the doomed flight requested an emergency landing – but it was denied due to a second emergency at the same time.


In a leaked audio recording a pilot can be heard repeatedly requesting permission to land due to an electric failure and lack of fuel."

My blood pressure is up many notches.

[Gauges and Dials]

It is incredible that people claiming such high experience - as a captain! - can totally misunderstand the physics of flight so badly.

Of course you're right, but just for nerdly kicks I went to my calculator to answer an old question: If the centerline of the fuselage is in a perfectly coordinated turn, what's going on at the wingtips? The outer wingtip is travelling further in the same amount of time, and seeing higher airspeed. But it's in a slightly wider turn, too. Do the two cancel out? Is the outer wingtip overbanked or underbanked?

Could it possibly be that while Bob Hoover's coffee in the cockpit pours straight down into his cup, the fuel in his tip tanks is sloshed towards the outside or the inside of the turn? (Answer: Yes, but by such a silly small amount that you'd have a hard time measuring it)

Figure a 30 degree banked turn at 200 knots, which ought to give a turn of radius 6153 feet, a little more than a mile. ((I used v squared / 11.26 * tan(bank angle). Figure a 100 foot wingspan, and accounting for the bank, the outside wingtip travels in a circle of r= 6196 feet, covering more distance in the same time as the fuselage, and the inside travels in a circle of r= 6110 feet. The inside wingtip is seeing airspeed only 99% of what the fuselage is seeing, and the outer wingtip is seeing airspeed of 101% of what the fuselage is seeing. The perfectly coordinated bank angle for the outer wingtip would be 30.2 degrees, and the perfectly coordinated bank angle for the inner wingtip would be 29.8. Nobody can tell the difference of 0.4 degrees, and it's certainly not going to slosh any fuel around.

Run the same numbers in a 60 foot wingspan glider circling in a 45 degree bank at 50 knots, and you get almost a 10 degree difference between the apparent gravitational "down" at the inner wingtip vs the outer. Not enough to spill Bob Hoover's coffee, but measurable.

[portmanteau]

According to the tape the crew knew their heading and altitude. Request for vectors suggests they did not have nav capability to track over the VOR. They were really in a no-win situation by then with a need to stay at or above 10000ft until the VOR seemingly outweighed by the urgency to get it on the ground, hence the descent to 9000 ft too early which did for them.

[svhar]

This is what happens when everyone flies with minimum fuel. I recall an incident a few years ago when some RYR aircraft had to divert from Madrid to Valencia and Alicante, declaring emergency because of low fuel.

[taquechel]

Looking at the flight data, the hold pattern kept the airplane between 18 to 26 nm from the beginning of the runway.

The lack of fuel started while they were turning 26 nm from the runway, They entered the curve at 280 knots and FL210 and ended at 200 knots and FL 210. After that they start descending declaring they need to land.

So they were 26 nm away from airstrip and 2 nm above it. Gives a glide ratio of 13:1. Do you guys know what is the glide ratio for this plane full of passengers?

With a need of 13:1 I assume its tight but in a good scenario (not theirs) might be achievable.

nevertheles, he crashed 8nm away from it, so he did a glide ratio of only 9:1.

That seems very strange, right?

[PastTense]

How accurate is the fuel gauge on this plane? The behavior of the crew suggests there was less fuel than the crew thought there was. How likely is a faulty fuel gauge?

[neila83]

Looking at the flight data, the hold pattern kept the airplane between 18 to 26 nm from the beginning of the runway.

The lack of fuel started while they were turning 26 nm from the runway, They entered the curve at 280 knots and FL210 and ended at 200 knots and FL 210. After that they start descending declaring they need to land.

So they were 26 nm away from airstrip and 2 nm above it. Gives a glide ratio of 13:1. Do you guys know what is the glide ratio for this plane full of passengers?

With a need of 13:1 I assume its tight but in a good scenario (not theirs) might be achievable.

nevertheles, he crashed 8nm away from it, so he did a glide ratio of only 9:1.

That seems very strange, right?
It is odd, for some reason they suddenly entered a very steep descent. Even having lost all instruments they should have had a good idea where they were prior to losing them and known that they weren't that close, and also that there is a lot of terrain around these parts.

My only guesses are either an irrestistable urge to get below a cloud layer and get visual, or blind panic took over.

[cappt]

So they were 26 nm away from airstrip and 2 nm above it

Probably more like 2.6 or 14000'
MDE is 7000'
It's moot, they dove it in.

[Ushuaia]

.....The lack of fuel started while they were turning 26 nm from the runway, ....



Actually, the lack of fuel started when the flight plan was filed.

Ok, more accurately, it started when they flew out of range of a suitable airport enroute where they could land, with some reserves (!), then gas-and-go.

The rest of the musings really are irrelevant.

[aterpster]

syhar:
I flew for several months in Colombia. There are always c/b's around that cause delays and it never entered my mind to depart with minimum fuel only. ATC in Colombia is excellent, as can be heard on the tape.

Indeed, an excellent controller, as the Colombian controller at Cali in 1995,

[jack11111]

The main-stream media is showing great resistance to accepting an airliner can run dry of fuel.


The BBC World Service, for instance, has gone between electrical failure and fuel exhaustion. Recently, they seem to have settled on run dry.

[Pearly White]

Looking at the flight data, the hold pattern kept the airplane between 18 to 26 nm from the beginning of the runway.

The lack of fuel started while they were turning 26 nm from the runway, They entered the curve at 280 knots and FL210 and ended at 200 knots and FL 210. After that they start descending declaring they need to land.

So they were 26 nm away from airstrip and 2 nm above it. Gives a glide ratio of 13:1. Do you guys know what is the glide ratio for this plane full of passengers?

With a need of 13:1 I assume its tight but in a good scenario (not theirs) might be achievable.

nevertheles, he crashed 8nm away from it, so he did a glide ratio of only 9:1.

That seems very strange, right?Which part? The whole thing seems strange.

But as far as glide ratio is concerned, and without knowing the best speed for gliding distance on an RJ85, I suspect it's much lower than the 200kt at which they exited the hold.

[OscarRomeoDelta]

That was a very ignorant comment SV. Are you claiming that RYR dispatches flights illegally and without proper safe amounts of fuel?

[vmandr]

fcom-3 all engines inop

The FCOM Volume 3 gives advice on what to do if all engine start attempts are unsuccessful. The
following advice is extracted from the 146-FCOM Volume 3.
If the engines start attempts are unsuccessful, fly at VFTO + 30 to maximize range.
Glide performance at VFTO + 30 with zero flap and gear up is approximately 2.5 nm/1,000 feet; a 360 o
turn using 25 to 30 o of bank will result in a 5,000 feet height loss. Reduce to VER before starting the
approach.

[taquechel]

Probably more like 2.6 or 14000'
MDE is 7000'
It's moot, they dove it in.
I stand corrected.

the height available to MDE was 2.6 nm, and not 2 nm

So he he needed a 10:1 ratio do get to the airfield.

And crashed at 7:1.

Thats really sad. He might have made it. More lives could be spared.


I guess that with the audio FDR we will find out if the thought the VOR was the runway.

IF there is any audio available. In Brazil 2 years ago a governor running for president died in a Cessna jet that had the audio FR was not working. It had audio from like 1 week before the accident.

Yes, this is south america

[Pearly White]

fcom-3 all engines inop
Thanks vmandr, sadly, that seems to indicate that with 19 miles to track from 21000 feet and no wind they might just have made it - everything else being perfect.

Which, clearly, it wasn't.

[AndyJS]

Interesting article by The Economist, usually a very reliable source of information:

"It is not clear how or why the last-minute change in flight plan was approved. According to El Deber, a Bolivian newspaper, airport officials in Santa Cruz de la Sierra raised several questions about it. Mr Quiroga reportedly made various verbal guarantees that the plane had enough fuel for the trip.

Other considerations may have been on the pilot’s mind. Mr Quiroga was a co-owner of Lamia airlines. As such he had a unique set of incentives in this situation. Postponing a chartered flight in a time-sensitive industry is not good for business. Once in the air, telling officials that the plane is running out of fuel is less than desirable: the penalty for any firm being caught flouting regulations is huge. It is too early to say whether such factors played a part in his decision-making.

It is also unclear why a top-tier football team was flying to a major sporting event with an airline like Lamia in the first place. The firm was founded in 2009 in Mérida, a small city in western Venezuela. Last year Lamia Bolivia, a separate business entity, was set up. The airline claims to specialise in chartered flights, particularly for football teams. The only functioning plane it has ever owned is the 17-year-old jet that crashed into the muddy Colombian mountainside.

The players of Chapecoense were not the only footballers to fly with Lamia. Few airlines provide chartered flights in Latin America, and none does it cheaper. “A flight that another company charges you $100,000 for, Lamia offered for $60,000,” an industry insider told La Nacion, an Argentine newspaper."

Fuel folly: Why the Chapecoense football team?s plane ran out of fuel | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2016/12/fuel-folly)

[TowerDog]

Very unprofessional (especially for a commercial crew), but I bet many pilots have landed with less than 10 min of fuel left without declaring an emergency (and kept it secret to themselves).

No, not many proffesional pilots have done that. You on crack or just ignorant?

[mickjoebill]

The number of aerial filming accidents makes it's clear that the pressure/glamour of being associated with TV, corrupts flight safety.

From the planning stage onwards, producers are very persuasive.

With this in mind who actually charted the flight, the Football team or the TV Network?

Was the pilot given ample warning that TV crew and production staff were to be onboard?

Were the (reported but not confirmed) technical crew carrying large amounts of camera gear?
Enough to cover the match or just a few interview cameras?

Were interviews conducted on the flight deck during the flight?

Did the (possible) prescence of a camera (GoPro or manned) on the flight deck deter the pilot from declaring a fuel emergency?


Mickjoebill

[AndyJS]

Some more information from a reliable source:

"Brazil’s aviation authority, ANAC, said Tuesday morning that the LaMia airline had asked permission to fly directly from Brazil to Colombia, but the request was denied on the basis of international aviation agreements. An ANAC spokesman said under these agreements a charter flight between two countries can’t be operated by an airline from a third country."

Plane Carrying Brazilian Soccer Team Crashes in Colombia; At Least 70 Killed - WSJ (http://www.wsj.com/articles/plane-carrying-brazilian-soccer-team-crashes-in-colombia-1480403646)

[vmandr]

a few words about flight planning.

seems that sometimes 'we can do it' attitude, supported by a piece of paper (cfp, ofp) goes a long way with crews and AROs.
this story could have stopped right at dep airport.
dont know if they used a cfp and if that cfp gave same figure for eet and endurance.
if it did then maybe it is time for the cfp provider to re-arrange the algorithms to not allow eet = endurance.

[taquechel]

The number of aerial filming accidents makes it's clear that the pressure/glamour of being associated with TV, corrupts flight safety.

From the planning stage onwards, producers are very persuasive.

With this in mind who actually charted the flight, the Football team or the TV Network?

Was the pilot given ample warning that TV crew and production staff were to be onboard?

Were the (reported but not confirmed) technical crew carrying large amounts of camera gear?
Enough to cover the match or just a few interview cameras?

Were interviews conducted on the flight deck during the flight?

Did the (possible) prescence of a camera (GoPro or manned) on the flight deck deter the pilot from declaring a fuel emergency?


Mickjoebill
- The Football Team

- This air company was used of transporting south american football team. The pilot itself as the owner, knew who they were transporting, of course. And the crew too. The airplane is painted with Chapecoense badge and some colors

- No cameras gear, only small I presume. The cameras used in the match are from the Colombian TV that covers the game in medellin. This is common in soccer games. Each stadium has it own cameras from a local network.

- During the flight no idea. But before the flight, yes.

- I woulnt assume that. Problems happen. But in this case it was intentional, so the pilot covered it due to penalties , with or without cameras.

[FL11967]

Very similar to Virgin VA-1384 in Mildura. Almost ran out of fuel after priority was given to another Qantas 737.

At one time MH had their 747s landing at LHR with little more than fumes.

Perhaps these incidences happen more often than what the public thinks?

[musicalaviator]

Very similar to Virgin VA-1384 in Mildura. Almost ran out of fuel after priority was given to another Qantas 737.

At one time MH had their 747s landing at LHR with little more than fumes.

Perhaps these incidences happen more often than what the public thinks?
Except VOZ1384 flew from Sydney to Adelaide. Found the weather to be below legal minimums, then diverted to Mildura, flew an approach, went around, and then flew a second approach and landed, then taxied to the apron on their own power.

They did not takeoff from Sydney without enough fuel to actually get to Adelaide, then crash well short of the runway after gliding the first approach without fuel on board.

But yea, similar if you really stretch the definition.

[neila83]

Very similar to Virgin VA-1384 in Mildura. Almost ran out of fuel after priority was given to another Qantas 737.

At one time MH had their 747s landing at LHR with little more than fumes.

Perhaps these incidences happen more often than what the public thinks?
No, I don't think planes crashing because they have run out of fuel is happening more often than the public thinks. As has already been pointed out this is in no way similar the the Virgin incident. Well except a plane was involved.

After the earlier post about Ryanair, where does all this nonsense come from? Ryanair were perfectly legal and as was even noted in the post diverted to 2 different airports and still landed safely. That's the difference between carrying enough fuel and not carrying enough fuel. This flight was actually planned - it's there on the plan - so that if a single nautical mile extra was required it couldn't make it. Consider that for a second.

I'd like to see the evidence for MH apparently routinely landing at LHR below legal minimums?

[AndyJS]

"LaMia Airline's general manager, Gustavo Vargas Gamboa, and the head of Bolivia's Civil Aviation National Registry are father and son. Vargas Gamboa, the father, denied that the family ties allow him or his company any special benefits. "For this reason, I am not a partner, I'm a general manager," Vargas Gamboa said, explaining he does not own any company assets."

Colombia plane crash: Jet without fuel, crew member said - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/30/americas/colombia-plane-crash-investigation-fuel/)

[cooperplace]

I'd like to see the evidence for MH apparently routinely landing at LHR below legal minimums?

there was a lot of talk about this back in about 1999

[WHBM]

I'd like to see the evidence for MH apparently routinely landing at LHR below legal minimums?
It's pretty easy to put "Malaysian low fuel Heathrow" into Google and come up with a string of articles

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/malaysia-airlines-low-fuel-danger-spans-two-years-51332/

[JumpJumpJump]

Without doubt, the global aviation community is standing on the side of the contoller... I have just set up a Go Fund Me on her behalf, the limk can be found here https://www.gofundme.com/controller-of-the-lamia-crash Please, Help me with the wording, if I can express the sentiment better, I will. Thank you all

[unworry]

I am proposing this crowd funding to go entirely to the controller that dealt so very professionally with 2 emergencies at Medellin one of which, through negligence, resulted in the deaths of many people.

That sentence is a little ambiguous and could seem to imply the negligence was on her part.

Might like to reword to suggest "through no fault of her own", but its friday arvo in aussie and I've had one too many lagers, so ...

[marie paire]

No, not many proffesional pilots have done that. You on crack or just ignorant?
Maybe not "many" professionals do it, but some do. A flight from Rio to Lisbon by a major airline landed in Lisbon with zero fuel and had to be towed out of the runway.

[JumpJumpJump]

Thank you Unworry.. I have changed the tesx to... Through no negligence of her own.

https://www.gofundme.com/controller-of-the-lamia-crash

Enjoy the VBs

[mary meagher]

On my post 367 wondered if the investigation into this disaster would have included a p.m. of the aircrew. Broadreach of Sao Paulo and dmba of Brazil replied that no way would a party atmosphere in the aircraft have indicated alcohol might have been involved. Nonetheless it is unusual that in a disaster very seldom can a proper p.m. of the crew be undertaken. In this accident because no fire was involved, it should be possible to set at rest any suggestion that the PIC was not fit to fly.

[FL11967]

Maybe not "many" professionals do it, but some do. A flight from Rio to Lisbon by a major airline landed in Lisbon with zero fuel and had to be towed out of the runway.
Apparently, in the late 90's MH pilots were pressured to carry as little fuel as possible to save money. I presume this no longer happens with the majors. Anyone has any stats on how common is it for pilots to declare low fuel?

In this case, had they not been put on hold, they would have landed and no one would know any better.

[marie paire]

FIRESYSOK:

:ok:

One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.

[wiggy]

Apparently, in the late 90's MH pilots were pressured to carry as little fuel as possible to save money. I presume this no longer happens with the majors.

Well it is certainly something the accountants are still aware of.

"Pressured" might not be the right word but where I am we get regular reminders about carrying extra fuel and we do get a regular personalised breakdown of how much "excess" fuel we decide to carry on each sector and whether it was actually used...

That said I've never had a decision to carry extra fuel decision queried.

[marie paire]

That was a very ignorant comment SV. Are you claiming that RYR dispatches flights illegally and without proper safe amounts of fuel?
Unfortunately, it appears that it is what happened, judging from what is written here: Por 5 observaciones no debía volar | Noticias de Bolivia y el Mundo - EL DEBER (http://www.eldeber.com.bo/suplementos/observaciones-no-debia-volar.html)

[patowalker]

Quote:
I am proposing this crowd funding to go entirely to the controller that dealt so very professionally with 2 emergencies at Medellin one of which, through negligence, resulted in the deaths of many people.

I have mentioned this twice before, but here it goes again: The Viva Colombia aircraft did not declare an emergency, it simply diverted to Medellin for a precautionary landing due to a fuel warning light coming on.

"El avión de VivaColombia en ningún momento se declaró en emergencia" | EL UNIVERSAL - Cartagena (http://www.eluniversal.com.co/deportes/el-avion-de-vivacolombia-en-ningun-momento-se-declaro-en-emergencia-241482)

[patowalker]

The most surprising thing about this thread is the lack of understanding of Latin culture. Larger operators, sure, they're mostly legit...but this one-horse show with a pretty private-pilot girl filmed in the left seat prior to departure wearing three stripes; pilot/owner selfies all over social media throwing up gang signs, etc.....this disaster should come as no surprise whatsoever. And I mean it was probably long overdue.

The pretty girl was a mother of two small boys, with an FAA CPL gained at American Flyers, Pompano, Fl. She was an observer on the flight, according to her father.

[Nightstop]

An insight into the RJ85's fuel system & management at low quantity:

https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/ei-w100617.en/pdf/ei-w100617.en.pdf

[Chesty Morgan]

That was a very ignorant comment SV. Are you claiming that RYR dispatches flights illegally and without proper safe amounts of fuel?
No, he isn't. Are you aware of the incident to which he refers?

[PENKO]

Everyone who compares this tragedy to the Ryanair fuel incident shows a severe lack of knowledge regarding fuel planning.

All Ryanair aircraft carried extra fuel that night (above the minimum legal reserves), Lamia appears to have carried NO reserve whatsoever. Due to extended holding and an emergency from another South American airliner who really was running out of fuel (!), two of the Ryanairs ended up using 2 minutes of their 30 minute reserve. There are lessons to be learned about the Ryanair situation, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this Lamia tragedy where it seems that there were no reserves planned at all.

[alanda]

Without doubt, the global aviation community is standing on the side of the contoller... I have just set up a Go Fund Me on her behalf, the limk can be found here https://www.gofundme.com/controller-of-the-lamia-crash Please, Help me with the wording, if I can express the sentiment better, I will. Thank you all

Yesterday, dmba posted a link to a document written by the controller. It gives her name.

[DaveReidUK]

Everyone who compares this tragedy to the Ryanair fuel incident shows a severe lack of knowledge regarding fuel planning.

The confusion isn't helped by soundbites like this from their CEO:

"Fuel emergencies, declared when pilots come close to having 30 minutes of fuel left on landing, 'while rare, are not unusual' in the airline industry"

M O'L August 2013.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-08-15/ryanair-fires-captain-after-tv-program-questions-safety-culture

[alemaobaiano]

LaMia Airline's general manager, Gustavo Vargas Gamboa, and the head of Bolivia's Civil Aviation National Registry are father and son.

Now that does explain a lot.

[marie paire]

Now that does explain a lot.
Does it? Registry is just a book-keeping function. Licencing, Certification, Operations, these could be relevant, though not necessarily so.

[directKORUL]

It seems like declaring an emergency could have saved the day. I'm looking into exactly this topic for quite a while now and it seems there is very little knowledge about why pilots seem so reluctant to declare.

Although in this case there are quite a few "obvious" reasons why the owner/pilot did not declare, does anyone know of some proper research / reports why (also GA) pilots do not declare, when they clearly need a maximum of help.

Controllers find it hard to say the words "avoiding action" because we don't say it very often and it is tantamount to admitting it's all gone wrong. This is especially the case if it is your own mistake and not say a level bust. Sometimes controllers think they have said those words, and are surprised when hearing the replay that they haven't and have said immediately instead. I presume the same would apply to pilots who don't want to admit it's all gone wrong or think that saying you are low on fuel is the same as a pan or mayday.
In the uk we do practice for emergencies in the simulator and the people running them try to engineer situations which require controllers to say "avoiding action" so it isn't a strange thing to have to say.

[BigFrank]

Well it is certainly something the accountants are still aware of.

"Pressured" might not be the right word but where I am we get regular reminders about carrying extra fuel and we do get a regular personalised breakdown of how much "excess" fuel we decide to carry on each sector and whether it was actually used...

That said I've never had a decision to carry extra fuel decision queried.

Am I the only one on these boards who considers your conclusion, which I have highlighted, to be at odds with the evidence which you yourself provide "in spades"?

[FL370 Officeboy]

This is what happens when everyone flies with minimum fuel. I recall an incident a few years ago when some RYR aircraft had to divert from Madrid to Valencia and Alicante, declaring emergency because of low fuel.

No, it's not. THIS is what happens when people fly around with significantly less than minimum fuel. Those RYR aircraft had sufficient fuel to divert and land safely. This aircraft rather tragically, did not.

[barry lloyd]

maire paire:

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:



One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.

As one who has spent half their professional life working in South America, speaks fluent Spanish and Portuguese and had dealings with the civil aviation authorities in most of those countries, I will say only this:

1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.

I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.

[deniasol]

I understand that the PICwas ex-military. Isn't it possible that pilots with such a background, due to the nature of their flight training which involves risky manoevers and missions may be willing to take higher risks than their civilian counterparts? Are there any statistical figures regarding accidents involving retired military pilots?

[Flightmech]

Unfortunately, despite better flight planning tools and resources this still happens occasionally.
I remember in the late 90's I was in Recife awaiting a flight to Lisbon. The airplane, an A310-300 of a national carrier, arrive from Fortaleza partially loaded to pick up the Recife pax. Once boarded we were told we were to expect a delay awaiting fuel. I sat at the back of business on the right side almost over the top of the refuel panel. Never saw anyone. After 45 minutes we started up and took off. Guess what, we were greeted with blue lights at the threshold on landing at Lisbon and had to be towed to the gate. Did we take gas in Recife....probably not.

[fireflybob]

As one who has spent half their professional life working in South America, speaks fluent Spanish and Portuguese and had dealings with the civil aviation authorities in most of those countries, I will say only this:

1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.

I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.

So lack of regulation then?

[ciderman]

I understand that the PICwas ex-military. Isn't it possible that pilots with such a background, due to the nature of their flight training which involves risky manoevers and missions may be willing to take higher risks than their civilian counterparts? Are there any statistical figures regarding accidents involving retired military pilots?
Sully was ex military and it was this training and background that probably saved the Hudson River passengers. There's military and there's South American military.

[fatespilot]

Maybe if the crew had trained for total electrical failure everyone would have lived. Some of my best training was at 4 am, in the sim at FlightSafety, when we had time to experiment.

Human factors: Based on their ATC calls, it sounds like they did not realize a flameout caused a total electrical failure. This blacked out the flight deck, where the captain overreacted and dove for the runway. Then the cabin went pitch black and people jumped up out of their seats screaming, which the pilots heard. It appears they totally lost situational awareness, thinking the radio beacon was the airport. Look at the crash site picture (Crash: LAMIA Bolivia RJ85 near Medellin on Nov 28th 2016, electrical problems, no fuel, impact with terrain (http://avherald.com/h?article=4a16583c)).

Why would they nose dive for a spot 9.5 miles from the runway where there are no lights? The ridge they hit is 300 meters from the station (RNG VOR). My hunch is that they completely disregarded their fuel state, partly due to the distracting nature of the charter. How often was the captain leaving the flight deck to socialize in the back? Whatever he had been wrapped up in, he was not calm or setup for the approach. Instead of pitching for best glide, they dove for the deck. They could have squeezed out 10 minutes from FL210 when the lights went out. That's a ton of time to make life saving decisions.

Sim test: I tried the scenario w/ an ERJ-190 gear down at FL210 heading away from SKRG 15 miles to the south--made the runway, no problem. LaMia could have easily glided that distance and seen the runway. Even if they only made it halfway to the airport, there are flat open fields to ditch. People could have walked off that plane, at least the smart ones belted into their seats.

I'm left wondering if the pilots had clue one that they were in trouble. If I was in the right seat (or the jumpseat) I'd of been worrying about the fuel situation an hour prior. I would have been vocal about it. With 30 mins. left I'd of been pushing hard to land, and at 15 mins. I would have been freaked out and declaring an emergency. The closest I came to this scenario was a nasty winter storm at SFO. I was pressing ATC to let us land after being stuck in a +1 hour hold over Santa Cruz. The FO and I were discussing contingencies the entire time. When we approached 30 mins. of fuel left, I demanded immediate routing to San Jose. This got us clearance to SFO, but it still took 20 mins. to land and 10 mins. to taxi. I was worried that one of the engines might quit on the way to the gate, and how I'd explain myself. Anyway, the LaMia accident was totally survivable, even with fuel mismanagement and a dead stick landing.

[rideforever]

Just goes to show that no matter what regulations are in place, if you want to fly responsibily it is up to your own individual will and preparation.

You can expect those you work with to be beset by the usual fear, arrogance, and lack of awareness that are quite normal even for highly trained people.

And if you want to feel comfortable declaring or surviving emergencies, you have to practice them again and again. Overtrain yourself and prepare for the worst. Then you can say you have done your job.

[M.Mouse]

Quote:
As one who has spent half their professional life working in South America, speaks fluent Spanish and Portuguese and had dealings with the civil aviation authorities in most of those countries, I will say only this:

1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.

I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.
So lack of regulation then?

There is a great deal of naivete displayed in many postings in this thread.

Anybody who has lived or worked in South America will know that the culture is very different regarding rules and authority. In Europe, USA, etc. there is a (broad) adherence to rules and regulations, not so in much of the rest of the world.

From the facts known so far none of them are that surprising to anybody with experience of working in South America.

[butterfly68]

There were 9 crew members, the two pilots, the lady pilot probably in the jumseat, the flight attendant who survived, the technician who survived but who were the other four? 5 flight attendants for a such flight? The news don't say a word about the other crew members...:sad: Just curious..

[ciderman]

There is a great deal of naivete displayed in many postings in this thread.

Anybody who has lived or worked in South America will know that the culture is very different regarding rules and authority. In Europe, USA, etc. there is a (broad) adherence to rules and regulations, not so in much of the rest of the world.

From the facts known so far none of them are that surprising to anybody with experience of working in South America.
That was what I was alluding to in my earlier post Mickey.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

A friend of mine flew long haul for a major carrier. The chief pilot sent a note to all long haul captains that some were carrying excess fuel, and please to keep it down to no more than company recommendations. All but one did. The chief pilot had a quiet word with the chap who didn't, and thereafter he too followed the company line.

One day he arrived in the Heathrow vicinity from the US and was held. And held, to the point where he considered it wise to divert. He took his 747 to Birmingham.

On the ground he rang the chief pilot:

"Blogs here. I decided to take your advice regarding fuel and save the company the cost of tanking it around".

"Jolly good, very glad to hear it".

"Only problem is, as a result I'm at Birmingham instead of Heathrow. So we have several hundred pax to transport to Heathrow, and the aeroplane is out of position".

My friend wonders how much 'tanking' one would have to do to equal the cost to the airline of just that one diversion.

[Tu.114]

So how many slices of Emmenthal do we have here?
- Forcing an aircraft on a route not suitable for it instead of sensibly planning a fuel stop;
- planning a flight not only without any of the legal reserve but even intending to use every last drop of fuel in the tanks (END = EET) and hoping for the best;
- the dispatcher and ATC accepting this flight plan;
- the crew not keeping an eye on the fuel state enroute and not using the opportunity to refuel at some enroute alternate;
- not calling "minimum fuel" or fuel emergency at the appropriate point;
- even when being sent into the holding due to another priority traffic, not clearly communicating ones situation to the controller.

Any of these "holes", had it been plugged, would have caused this flight to land more or less normally without any newsworthy occurrence or even the loss of any life, albeit in breach of several volumes of aeronautical regulations. They would likely just have taken up a bit more than 1000 liters of fuel and departed at some point.

And finally:

- possibly becoming overwhelmed by the aircrafts logical and expectable reactions to the consecutive flameouts of all engines;

- losing situational awareness.

Without these two, the aircraft might or might not have cleared that ridge and ended up impacting a more survivable area.

The CVR transcript will likely be extremely enlightening to read; the CRM practiced in that flight deck may well be a case study on how not to run an airliner...

[marie paire]

maire paire:



As one who has spent half their professional life working in South America, speaks fluent Spanish and Portuguese and had dealings with the civil aviation authorities in most of those countries, I will say only this:

1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.

I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.
Yes, but...
1. We are talking air transport operations only and
2. These accidents and incidents are all reported and investigated;
3. ICAO and IATA statistics show that the regional improvement in that aspect has been remarkable over the last few years. In line with, but better than, most of the world, I must add.

[Kolossi]

Doesn't change the outcome, or the issue of lack of go-juice, but regarding the loss of SA:

The plate posted at thread post #37 (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/587574-jet-goes-down-its-way-medellin-colombia-2.html#post9593253) shows the hold with northern turn at D0.6 RNG QDM 006.

However the flightradar24 path (usual caveats about this data source) in post #62 (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/587574-jet-goes-down-its-way-medellin-colombia-4.html#post9593454) shows the path occurring noticeably south of this point. Just visually comparing landmarks/towns on the maps, the position of the VOR shown in the link (https://goo.gl/maps/RgPzFzNYzR42) in post #193 (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/587574-jet-goes-down-its-way-medellin-colombia-10.html#post9594605) and the flight path, it looks like the turn shown in the path was around 4.5nm south of the VOR.

The plate shows the glideslope intercept as being D4.5 RNG QDR 006.

Doesn't change anything, but could this be part of the mental mix-up that led to the dive to the VOR believing it to be the threshold.

PPL (non-ifr) only so apologies if terminology not quite right, but hopefully I've communicated the possible hic-up.

So something like this:

[RAT 5]

we do get a regular personalised breakdown of how much "excess" fuel we decide to carry on each sector and whether it was actually used...

IMHO if any excess fuel was used it was because it was necessary and therefore not excess. I suspect you are referring to excess fuel above minimum FPL fuel. That calculation does not take into account non-ideal parameters such as weather, traffic flow, ATC/NAV facilities, etc. etc. I took 'extra' fuel as an insurance for some or all of these factors. I would not have been surprised to use some or all of it. It was for me the minimum required to do the job safely. There was none for Mum & the kids, it was all for me & the pax.
If it turned out to be an ideal day with no hiccups then my 'insurance' fuel stayed as an unpaid-out policy premium; but I landed relaxed and unstressed. There have been occasions where the policy paid out and it was still relaxed. That's what sensible insurance does for you.

[Alas para Volar]

Yes, but...
1. We are talking air transport operations only and
2. These accidents and incidents are all reported and investigated;
3. ICAO and IATA statistics show that the regional improvement in that aspect has been remarkable over the last few years. In line with, but better than, most of the world, I must add.

Plenty of room for further improvement though........

[ATL-98]

The 9 consisted of Captain, 2 First Officers, 2 Cabin Crew, 2 Engineers and 2 company staff (a Pilot & Dispatcher).

[butterfly68]

Thank you ATL!

[Ian W]

No, I don't think planes crashing because they have run out of fuel is happening more often than the public thinks. As has already been pointed out this is in no way similar the the Virgin incident. Well except a plane was involved.

After the earlier post about Ryanair, where does all this nonsense come from? Ryanair were perfectly legal and as was even noted in the post diverted to 2 different airports and still landed safely. That's the difference between carrying enough fuel and not carrying enough fuel. This flight was actually planned - it's there on the plan - so that if a single nautical mile extra was required it couldn't make it. Consider that for a second.

I'd like to see the evidence for MH apparently routinely landing at LHR below legal minimums?

From PPrune http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/4059-sia-low-fuel-lhr.html

Pilots forced to make emergency landings because of fuel shortages - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/aviation/9488249/Pilots-forced-to-make-emergency-landings-because-of-fuel-shortages.html)

https://www.colombotelegraph.com/index.php/srilankan-airlines-insufficient-fuel-on-board-heathrow-flight-forces-diversion-to-gatwick/

Considering the number of movements there are not a lot of landings on fumes - but it does happen. And as the original poster on this sub-subject said it may be more common than reported. In the spirit of ASRS these events should be anonymized and reported with reasons behind them so that the holes in the cheese can be closed.

[Toruk Macto]

Which countries military did he fly for , lots of talk of rules and regs from a cilvilian point of view . Does the military operate with 30 min fixed reserves ? Does military transports require an alt ? Would operating an A/C to its max endurance been seen as just operating to the edge of the envolope im his previous job ?

[edmundronald]

Avianca 52 was written off as pilot miscommunication and lack of assertiveness, but nobody said that calling a fuel emergency may be a career buster if you are a third world pilot flying into NY, because your airline will get blamed for not carrying enough fuel for unlimited holds and then headquarters gets on your case and your career goes xxx. Cultural issues cut both ways.

Edmund

[PENKO]

It is becoming obvious that there was not nearly enough legal fuel on board for this flight. At least not legal to any known standards. What I am trying to understand though, is why the flight plan blatantly pointed this fact out: EET and Endurance both at 4h22m.

Was the PIC following some kind of accepted Bolivian charter procedure? 'Fill 'r up and good luck commandante, just annotate your endurance in both boxes so we know you are following your own on the spot fuel planning and we're off the hook'? Why else would you willingly tell ATC, CAA, the dispatchers, everyone that you do not have ANY legal reserves?

[marie paire]

There were 9 crew members, the two pilots, the lady pilot probably in the jumseat, the flight attendant who survived, the technician who survived but who were the other four? 5 flight attendants for a such flight? The news don't say a word about the other crew members...:sad: Just curious..
A journalist and two football players. By the way, the dispatcher killed was the same person that insisted with the ARO lady that all was in order when she complained about the endurance. Also, most of those killed were members of the press.

[wiggy]

RAT5

I guess you're referring to my earlier post:

. I suspect you are referring to excess fuel above minimum FPL fuel. That calculation does not take into account non-ideal parameters such as weather, traffic flow, ATC/NAV facilities, etc. etc.

That's not what I meant, maybe it's semantics.

I think just like many operators my operators minimum FPL fuel includes a contingency amount (usually statistically based) amount to cater for exactly the sort of non-ideals you describe. If you go with our FPL fuel you already have contingency built in for the most common non-ideals. Any excess fuel loaded above our FPL fuel (e.g for really carp weather) is therefore contingency plus .....

In any event and to clarify another point I've never had a phone call, e-mail or conversation querying any excess I've ordered.;)

[scifi]

Nobody has yet mentioned the effects of wind. Was this taken into account at the planning stage?
Looking at the FR24 track, it seems as if the cruise was at a slow speed, either to conserve fuel, or because of a strong headwind.
.

[Viscount43]

Early 80's as ATCO middle east airport, quiet day CAVOK, TMA 707 freighter on long approach.
"10 miles long final"
"Don't have you visual Sir, what's your altitude?"
"10 thousand feet, request one-in-one....exmilitary, just want some practice."

Impressive looking approach ending in a nice touchdown. "We have a steering problem, can you send a tug to get us off the runway?" ...the R/t was calm and composed throughout.

15 minutes later, red faced incoherent copilot in the Tower demanding I report the Captain and call the police re attempted murder........apparently fuel had run out over 20 miles away and the only way was a glide approach. I did what any sensible ATCO would do and explained how to find the Manager's office, thinking, You are lucky to be alive!!!

[papapapahotel]

Sully was ex military and it was this training and background that probably saved the Hudson River passengers. There's military and there's South American military.
Please do not put all cats in the same bag. South americans military are not to be confounded with bolivian military...

[DaveReidUK]

Which countries military did he fly for ?

He flew for TAM (Transporte Aéreo Militar), the transport wing of the Fuerza Aérea Boliviana.

[H Peacock]

Notwithstanding the apparent crazy fuel planning, do any of the 146 experts know if this flight was flown at max-range parameters as opposed to a normally faster but less fuel efficient long range cruise (LRC)? What about the hold; was that flown iaw max endurance data for the given alt/weight?

I gather the subsequent glide was not flown at best gliding range speed, possibly due to a complete loss of SA.

It must have been horrific for the crew, but surely they knew a total loss of power was imminent. Perhaps if the weather had been better and with some daylight available their limited SA may have enabled an outcome with considerably fewer fatalities.

[LiveryMan]

Avianca 52 was written off as pilot miscommunication and lack of assertiveness, but nobody said that calling a fuel emergency may be a career buster if you are a third world pilot flying into NY, because your airline will get blamed for not carrying enough fuel for unlimited holds and then headquarters gets on your case and your career goes xxx. Cultural issues cut both ways.


Agreed, I have always felt the Avianca 52 crew were under a certain pressure to make it work with minimum of fuss.

However that does not relate to this incident as the Captain owned the airline so had no one really peering over his shoulder. Maybe that could be considered one of the root causes?

[TioPablo]

I allow myself to repudiate some discriminatory comments regarding the Latin American culture and its pilots. It is not only outrageous from the human point of view, but also quite hypocritical. In my humble opinion, those who argue that the cause of this disaster lies in a mere question of customs, not only have a tunnel vision, but also seem to forget the huge number of accidents that have occurred in "civilized countries"; Accidents that after being analyzed turned out to have been caused by the greed of those who hold the economic power. Lack of training, lack of maintenance, pressure at work, to name some of the causes. I fully agree that this accident (according to what is known so far), is a crime that should be punished with all the force of the law, but it does not justify in any way to put all the Latin American pilots in the same bag.

[barry lloyd]

Originally Posted by Toruk Macto View Post
Which countries military did he fly for ?
He flew for TAM (Transporte Aéreo Militar), the transport wing of the Fuerza Aérea Boliviana.

...who do not have a stellar record where accidents are concerned...

https://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Country=CP

[aterpster]

edmundronald:


Avianca 52 was written off as pilot miscommunication and lack of assertiveness, but nobody said that calling a fuel emergency may be a career buster if you are a third world pilot flying into NY, because your airline will get blamed for not carrying enough fuel for unlimited holds and then headquarters gets on your case and your career goes xxx. Cultural issues cut both ways.

I disagree. At about the same time an American Airlines flight declared an emergency because of low fuel state, and absolutely nothing punitive happened to that crew. I believe there were a couple of others as well. JFK was backed up beyond belief that night.

In the case of a foreign carrier, the FAA does nothing other than report it to the State Department for diplomatic exchange with the foreign country. That is not done often and my educated guess would not have happened had Avianca 52 done a mayday for low fuel.

[alanda]

The 9 consisted of Captain, 2 First Officers, 2 Cabin Crew, 2 Engineers and 2 company staff (a Pilot & Dispatcher).

Where does this information come from? Are you including the female CPL as one of the two First Officers or as company staff, and is the flight technician who survived (Erwin T) one of the two engineers?

[RoyHudd]

Was there a qualified and experienced FO alongside the Captain? If not, the command gradient may have simply been too steep.

[rak64]

The 9 consisted of Captain, 2 First Officers, 2 Cabin Crew, 2 Engineers and 2 company staff (a Pilot & Dispatcher).

I do not understand why not to use minimum crew, what are 4. The other are unnecessary weight, nearly 500kg.

If you see any possible threat you have to talk to the passenger, not to let it happen. Even very necessary talk to VIP. This mission was facing increased problems, as the accepted contract was impossible do to bureaucratic reason. Landing permission was rejected for cabotage rights. Planned fuel stop was impossible do to airport closure. I suspect the airline agreed to the alternate plan without check it according actual data.

It was extremely unlucky to have another aircraft in emergency in front of them but weather was actually already there. What if the CB would be over the destination airport? Same result. It is not a good idea to accept this.

I miss good technique of fuel saving, no step climb in the last hour, did they idle descent? Even overweight causes underperformance, fuel consumption might not valid.

[TowerDog]

. I believe there were a couple of others as well. JFK was backed up beyond belief that night.

Yup, I was in the stack, next behind Avianca when they did the approach and the missed.
The instant we landed, they crashed.
The Avianca Captain did not speak English but instructed his FO to decleare an emergency but the FO instead requested priority.
Same thing with this accident: It seems they never declared an emergency, but rather priority?
Sad beyond belief.

[cappt]

Crew Roster.
Two PIC's and one SIC.

https://scontent.fsnc1-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15202739_1150622754973073_8774054704100095662_n.png?oh=84fc5 21a16aef2deba03f75cb5457019&oe=58B8F727

The plate shows the glideslope intercept as being D4.5 RNG QDR 006.


Glideslope intercept is at 9.5 miles on the IMDE (localizer) or at .6 miles north of the RNG VOR. (At this point you should be tracking the LOC frequency.)

One possibly explanation is when the lights went out they thought they were holding 5 miles south of the runway on the localizer and not 5 south of the RNG VOR. That would the explain the excessive descent from the hold.

Even overweight causes underperformance, fuel consumption might not valid.
This cannot be stressed enough. They may have well done this flight before successfully but not at this weight. The fuel planning may have looked doable (still not legal) without the MGTOW of the aircraft entered into the FMS.

[T28B]

I understand that the PICwas ex-military. Isn't it possible that pilots with such a background, due to the nature of their flight training which involves risky manoevers and missions may be willing to take higher risks than their civilian counterparts? Are there any statistical figures regarding accidents involving retired military pilots? You have an interesting bias against military pilots. To amplify on some of the responses to you, in general military pilots are trained to:
Plan for weather
Plan for alternates
Plan for fuel reserves
Plan for the unexpected
Know their aircraft thoroughly

However, when it comes to detailed training you'd need to evaluate on a nation-by-nation basis, just as training varies somewhat across borders and between companies.

Your assumption that somehow military pilots who fly transport planes are trained to engage in risky maneuvers and risky flying is erroneous. Does the military operate with 30 min fixed reserves? Does military transports require an alt ? Would operating an A/C to its max endurance been seen as just operating to the edge of the envelope in his previous job? This response applies to your post as well.

[Double Back]

Till now nothing was mentioned in this thread about decompression.

With all sources depleting the cabin must have started to rise, possibly not enough to trigger already a wrng but maybe was in the mind of the capt to get down quickly and more or less perform an emergency descent. We will know after the cockpit voice recorder transcript will be published (btw, if ever would come available, I would never want to hear the original)

For others disturbed by a general disrespect for non "western" crew, I must say from this part of the hemisphere a looking down on these cultures is western arrogance.
I have audited some "non-western" airlines and I have seen some tremendous professional work been done there, in a very demanding set of conditions, we don't even meet in our worst western dreams.

This accident was with one of those "cowboy" operators, we can find anywhere.

And in the last decade we have seen a few nasty accidents in the western world where poor pilot performance was the key. So don't judge too fast to a whole group.


Accidents do influence a pilot's mind. You wonder if it could have happened to You.
To live with that I read accident reports where I look for the moment in the accident chain where I would have broken it. In some accidents that would have been close to the end, others right at the beginning. So in the end You can sleep on thinking, wouldn't have been me there.
With some dramatic exceptions like the JAL explosive decompression with subsequent loss of control. I have never read someone claiming he would have saved the day in that one.

As far as we kinda "know" till here, the Medellin accident was far beyond I would ever have risked.

[sansmoteur]

Donated on GoFundMe

[cappt]

With all sources depleting the cabin must have started to rise, possibly not enough to trigger already a wrng but maybe was in the mind of the capt to get down quickly and more or less perform an emergency descent.

Possibly but the emergency descent would be down the list after a flamout, they also should have had oxygen masks (quick donning type.)

[Hotel Tango]

Possibly but the emergency descent would be down the list after a flamout, they also should have had oxygen masks (quick donning type.)

Exactly, and that would be clearly heard on the radio TX.

[noflynomore]

Given the lack of instrumentation after the electrics were lost I can well imagine an overwhelming urge to get visual as quickly as possible. Combined with all the other factors (poss inc depressurisation) it would be a calm head indeed that did not panic to some extent - and diving to the VOR at about the normal altitude was a fatal mistake in itself. Even if they had got visual at the VOR at 10,000ft they were going to run out of air half way to the runway no matter hat else happened. If they'd dived at the airport things could have worked out better, but who knows. From what I've read here they seem to have had enough altitude to have made the field easily had a wiser course of action prevailed. The fact is they flew into a position from which a crash was inevitable and that doesn't indicate a lot of calm thinking, something this flight seems to have been without from the start.

[Lonewolf_50]

Field elevation is listed as 6967' however there is ample high terrain in the vicinity (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/587574-jet-goes-down-its-way-medellin-colombia-23.html#post9596592). MSA from 12,100 to 13, 100 depending on sector. A few miles west of FAC is a peak near 10,000, but that isn't where the aircraft hit.

[ManaAdaSystem]

The flight was planned to land with 0 kgs fuel.
They landed with 0 kgs fuel.

And that is it.

[Tu.114]

They did not land, they proved the importance of reserve fuel...

[Alas para Volar]

They did not land, they proved the importance of reserve fuel...

Nothing more useless than runway behind you, sky above you, fuel on the ground.

Trite but true.

[H Peacock]

The flight was planned to land with 0 kgs fuel.
They landed with 0 kgs fuel.

And that is it.


Not quite, the landing with 0 kgs was meant to be at SKRG!

[Rob21]

According to the Colombian Air Safety Secretary, Coronel Freddy Bonilla, Lamia's flight did not followed the Flight Plan. Lamia's flight should have stopped at Pando Airport, located in Cobija, Bolivia. The flight from Santa Cruz de La Sierra to Cobija would have taken 1.5 hours. Estimated time on ground in Pando was around 40 minutes (possibly for refuel), but this stop did not happen. Entering Colombian air space the pilot informed Control he was proceeding direct to Medellin.
It is known that Pando Airport does not operate at night and the takeoff from Santa Cruz de La Sierra was delayed, so this is the reason Lamia's flight did not land there for refueling.
The question is: why they did not land at Bogota International Airport and refueled there?

[barit1]

Let us not forget. These (Dover C-5M) were an AF Reserves aircrew, perhaps airline people on deployment.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/picture-snapped-usaf-c-5-galaxy-report-blames-aircr-207239/

[Airbubba]

Doesn't change the outcome, or the issue of lack of go-juice, but regarding the loss of SA:

The plate posted at thread post #37 (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/587574-jet-goes-down-its-way-medellin-colombia-2.html#post9593253) shows the hold with northern turn at D0.6 RNG QDM 006.

However the flightradar24 path (usual caveats about this data source) in post #62 (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/587574-jet-goes-down-its-way-medellin-colombia-4.html#post9593454) shows the path occurring noticeably south of this point. Just visually comparing landmarks/towns on the maps, the position of the VOR shown in the link (https://goo.gl/maps/RgPzFzNYzR42) in post #193 (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/587574-jet-goes-down-its-way-medellin-colombia-10.html#post9594605) and the flight path, it looks like the turn shown in the path was around 4.5nm south of the VOR.

The plate shows the glideslope intercept as being D4.5 RNG QDR 006.


Not sure I agree with your reading of the approach plate turn point and glide path intercept but it does appear that the FR24 data shows the holding pattern several miles south of the procedure on the approach plate.

Looks like the FR24 data is from ADS-B (not MLAT) and the location should be from GPS inputs.

Are the holding instructions on the ATC recording that was recently 'leaked'? Hold at the VOR as published seems likely in this scenario.

Confusion between RNG and IMDE DME certainly seems possible with the glide slope intercept at D0.6 RNG/D9.5 IMDE and the runway waypoint [RW01] at D9.5 RNG/D0.6 IMDE.

And with an early glass cockpit in mountainous terrain, any discrepancies in the picture may be taken as a map shift when compared to the wrong raw data.

[BluSdUp]

I hope the local NTSB looks into as many trips as possible looking for violations of the rules on previous flights.
I find it incredible that this company could operate like this.
It looks like there was a total lack of respect for rules and what is more, common sense.
I can see this happen, but not this day and age. Come to think of it , not that I know of has anyone planed for fuel to destination and not a drop more.
Just not done.
But here we are, PIC did indeed do that.
Fantastic!

[ciderman]

I hope the local NTSB looks into as many trips as possible looking for violations of the rules on previous flights.
I find it incredible that this company could operate like this.
It looks like there was a total lack of respect for rules and what is more, common sense.
I can see this happen, but not this day and age. Come to think of it , not that I know of has anyone planed for fuel to destination and not a drop more.
Just not done.
But here we are, PIC did indeed do that.
Fantastic!
Fuel planning used to go something like this:
A to Destination .... kgs
contingency 5% route fuel.....kgs
taxy/T/O ....kgs (146 usually 200 kgs)
diversion .....kgs
final reserve ....kgs

Add that lot up and you get the absolute minimum fuel required for take off. I suspect that exceeded 9300kgs so some fiddling went on and the result is the ensuing tragedy.

[Lancelot de boyles]

I do hope that the ATCO involved doesn't attract the wrong attention from some misguided, over-enthusiastic football fan, in the same way that Peter Nielsen did in the aftermath of the überlingen midair. There have been several posts in this thread so far, regarding deluded persons aportioing blame on the wrong folk.

[Contact Approach]

How accurate is the fuel gauge on this plane? The behavior of the crew suggests there was less fuel than the crew thought there was. How likely is a faulty fuel gauge?

Quite superfluous given the fact they filed with little to no reserve.

[deadheader]

Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:

Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?

[EcoFox]

Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:



One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
I totally agree. Furthermore, that pejorative "these countries" is too vague a statement. "These countries" is very large an area where very different realities coexist. The ignorance of some put "these countries" all in the same basket.

[Arfur Dent]

Whatever the version of the "Pilot Log" was in this cockpit, the crew must've known for a long time that they were 'below the line". Was the Co-Pilot so intimidated by the Captain that he was prepared to die rather than take control or at the very least, put out a "MAYDAY" call?
How can such a situation develop into such a catastrophe? In 2016??

[Alas para Volar]

Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:

Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?

The leaked flight plan does not seem to demonstrate any intention to land at Cobija.

[barry lloyd]

Originally Posted by marie paire View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:



One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
I totally agree. Furthermore, "these countries" is too vague a statement. "These countries" is very large an area where very different realities coexist. The ignorance of some put "these countries" all in the same basket.

Would you prefer it if I said these two countries? As stated previously, I have worked in many countries in South America and I am well aware that there are countries where aviation is performed more safely.

For what it's worth I'm equally tired of seeing the aircraft involved being labelled in the Spanish and Portuguese language press as British as if, in some way, it were a contributory factor in this accident. No-one says American Boeing or French Airbus. Cultural prejudice?

[WHBM]

I suspect references to the aircraft as British are just a bit of shorthand, given that it's the first word of the manufacturers name; an A320 appears in the press as Airbus, not as Airbus Industrie.

[Uplinker]

Just to be picky, Airbus is not just French.

[Lonewolf_50]

I suspect references to the aircraft as British are just a bit of shorthand, given that it's the first word of the manufacturers name; an A320 appears in the press as Airbus, not as Airbus Industrie. @WHBM: barry may referring to "the culture of blame" issue in various places. As a point of reference, the midair over Brazil a few years ago. (Discussed in at least one thread on PPRuNe forums).

[broadreach]

Barry, I haven't read it that way, nor do I see Latin American reporting suggesting blame. It's just that while the general public has a good idea of where Boeing and Airbus come from, very few have ever heard of Avro.

[alanda]

Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:

Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
If they were only 40mins delayed as some reports infer, and Cobija is daylight ops only, does that mean they planned a fuel stop in marginal conditions where any delay would render that stop impossible (clearly too marginal to ensure daylight arrival & departure if 40mins delay scuppered the plan)?
Did they subsequently cancel Cobija refuel option but not plan an alternative en route fuel stop?
Did they ever intend to make such a stop en route?

So many contributors to this thread haven't bothered to read earlier posts, and there is much going around in circles. Re Cobija, the following is from post 15 on this thread: Originally the flight was planned to have a fuel stop at the city of Cobija, on Bolivia's border with Brazil, however the flight's departure was delayed while the crew searched for one of the players' video games.[12] The late departure meant the flight would not arrive at Cobija prior to the airport's closing time. The flight was reportedly supposed to refuel in Bogotá, instead.[11] The distance between Santa Cruz (IATA: VVI) and Medellín (IATA: MDE) airports is 1598 nautical miles (nm).[13] A fuel stop in Cobija (IATA: CIJ) would have broken the flight into two segments: an initial segment of 514nm to Cobija followed by a flight of 1101nm to Medellin, a total of 1615nm.[13] Bogota's airport (IATA: BOG) is 1486nm from Santa Cruz and 116nm from Medellin. ATL-98 gave a list of the crew on board and I asked for the source of this list, which contradicts information earlier in the thread, but have received no reply.