Pilot shortage [Archive] - Page 4

Popgun

7th Mar 2018, 23:15

:D:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:ok:

I really would like to ram that down the throats of downunder airlines!
This so eloquently states what I was trying to say before, but from an airline persepctive this time.
If we really had a shortage downunder then you would see a change in the hiring methods/'standards'

Agreed. I know of several competent, qualified, current, professional aviators that have been turned down recently by QF, JQ and VA. Most of these guys and gals have been passing sim/route checks and successfully piloting airline aircraft for over 20 years.

There is no real shortage in Australia when you have a situation in which HR is able to be choosy to the point of selecting one qualified aviator over another based on psychometric tests, behavioural interviews or other subjective soft skills.

I understand that with non-qualified candidates (ie cadets) this type of testing may be the best guide a company has to predict future success. But with an experienced aviator that has already been doing the same job for 20 years!?!?

No, that’s no shortage. Not in this country.

I agree with the advice to POQ to the USA if your personal situation allows it. It will open your eyes to a massive, interesting, challenging and fun industry full of opportunities and experiences that are not available to you in the sheltered backwater of Australian aviation.

If it isn’t happening as you want it to here...make it happen over there.

Best of luck.

PG

RodH

8th Mar 2018, 02:41

Interesting reading about the qualifications etc. needed to join the Airlines.
When the demand for Pilots is high the requirements drop quite a bit.
In 1964 there was a big surge in Domestic Aviation and the 2 Major Airlines were recruiting as quickly as they could get pilots.
There was one guy on my DC3 course who had a bare commercial and 175 hrs TT and was 28 years old!!
It seemed almost that if you had a pulse and a commercial you were in.
Things sure have changed in the few years since then.
Them were the good old days!!!:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

KRUSTY 34

8th Mar 2018, 05:04

[QUOTE=pilotchute;10074990]My NASA comment was just a bit of a dig at companies flying old school TP's expecting astronaut qualified crew. The hiring mins have come down but the expectation of HR hasn't really followed.

Well I can tell you, no one in our HR department would know the first thing about flying an aeroplane, let alone what it means to be in a position of command!

Centaurus

8th Mar 2018, 11:45

There was one guy on my DC3 course who had a bare commercial and 175 hrs TT and was 28 years old!!

Mate of mine got into Ansett about the same era with similar hours and those hours were on Tiger Moth and Wackett Trainer and no instrument rating. Retired as a 767 captain.

framer

8th Mar 2018, 17:06

Maybe it’l go full circle. The USA will start head hunting Australian pilots and Australian Airlines will have to take C152 pilots and invest some time and money in them :)

havick

8th Mar 2018, 17:52

Maybe it’l go full circle. The USA will start head hunting Australian pilots and Australian Airlines will have to take C152 pilots and invest some time and money in them :)

The US airlines are already doing this by way of E3 Visas for the regionals.

ComradeRoo

8th Mar 2018, 17:55

It will, just give it a bit of time. Australian market is minuscule compared to US/Europe/Asia, so naturally, effects of the shortage were less pronounced for the last couple of years. But with more and more doors opening for low hour pilots overseas - HRs will find very quickly that there are no more people in that waiting line.

DeltaT

8th Mar 2018, 18:46

HRs will find very quickly that there are no more people in that waiting line.

I can't wait for Karma pay back :E

RodH

8th Mar 2018, 18:55

Mate of mine got into Ansett about the same era with similar hours and those hours were on Tiger Moth and Wackett Trainer and no instrument rating. Retired as a 767 captain.

Might be the same bloke as it was with Ansett-ANA!

Rated De

8th Mar 2018, 21:57

Conceptually if studied one notices that the Low Fare Airline and indeed the Corporate model has TRANSFERRED the cost to the employee.

Whether it is for a mobile phone (to be contactable) to Type ratings companies have enjoyed transferring the cost to the employee. This was all predicated on Unlimited Supply.

In the extreme cases, companies like Ryanair and Uber treat the employee as a contractor. The contractor provides their own Superannuation, holiday loading and sick leave etc. Labour unit cost, particularly with the ancillary support services like remuneration (payroll/leave/benefits) no longer need consequently fell! Recently the UK ruled that Uber drivers are employees.....

Pilots are a vital ingredient to an airline, for without pilots, those expensive aircraft generate zero revenue sitting on the ground.

Smarter airlines realising the demographic structural shortage and are moving away from adversarial IR models.

Interestingly those costs once TRANSFERRED to the employees, including type ratings are now correctly being absorbed by the company as a COST of BUSINESS.

This is not a result of benevolence, it is necessity. There is a real sustained and accelerating shortage.

There is a growing and obvious shortage which is not as Mr Booth from the AFAP alleges, and I paraphrase 'part of the business cycle'

Whilst no one is advocating ambit claims from unions. Unions ought understand the shortage and the leverage it delivers to restore balance to their members remuneration and life balance./ s

ADawg

8th Mar 2018, 22:08

Maybe it’l go full circle. The USA will start head hunting Australian pilots and Australian Airlines will have to take C152 pilots and invest some time and money in them :)

I know of three guys, mid to late 30's who left the industry in the 90's for whatever reason and went on to forge very successful careers outside of aviation. CPL, instrument rating, passes in ATPL subjects etc

I wonder how many others are out there that could be encouraged to return by airlines if HR got off their bums and put a program together. Wouldn't that be a whole lot easier than starting a cadet scheme - oh that's right the airlines wouldn't make any money out of it.

Unfortunately there is a workforce trend in this country. Nobody wants to re-train because it's claimed it's expensive. Everything comes back to the mighty dollar, yet the advantages are far overlooked.

I was told there are 30,000 trained, but not active teachers in NSW alone yet teachers are still on the skilled occupations list for migration.

gordonfvckingramsay

8th Mar 2018, 22:59

Well said Rated De! I’d say that a “zero revenue” is a best case scenario though. These things are mindnumbingly expensive to have laying around. One airframe grounded for a few days due to a lack of pilots would cost the salary of a captain.

As for the AFAP softening the potentially devastating effect of the shortage, that’s no surprise at all. So I’m told, the AFAP almost got a dog of an agreement voted up recently, in this climate!!!

Berealgetreal

8th Mar 2018, 23:02

It's nice as an employee to imagine employers falling over themselves to attract talent their way.

However, reality is that employers will put anyone in the back or right seat that the regulator will allow them to. This might be a 200 hour pilot who has just left school with a potential return of service of 50 years. There will never be a shortage of 18 year olds willing to accept this proposition. There are cadet schemes running all over this country and the world that prove this.

Having said that, the cream of the school leavers will carefully analyse the career options and quickly work out that aviation isn't what it was and that other career paths are a more stable and less risky solution. I've seen this first hand. Does this matter to employers? Not really, they just need a bum in the seat and the rest is the Captain's problem.

In short, there will be more opportunities for low hour and less experienced pilots but conditions won't go back to the good ol' days.

Places like Asia and the Middle East need to offer compelling money because they are growing rapidly, they need experienced crews and its hard to attract these people from Western cultures. Still, the risk this poses is enough to stop the vast majority of experienced crews from leaving the West.

Once the kids have left home and retirement is on the horizon then certainly the proposition becomes more tantalising. The only other circumstance is a younger gambler who says they simply cannot sustain another 20 years of 12 hour duties, roster changes, crap hotels and crap food.

The war on conditions will continue on forever just have a look at the new kid on the block:Norwegian Air.

In the end, before we are one day replaced, there will be bare minimum experience with barely interested crews being saved over and over by automation and mum and dad down the back will still go for the cheapest possible ticket. Manuals will get thicker and thicker with procedures to cover every possible eventuality that was once covered by skilled pilots applying airmanship that was taught, learned and honed over decades and decades. It never ceases to amaze and in some way hurt me to share a cockpit with people that despise their career choice.

The Al Haynes', Chesley Sullenbergers and many others alike will be something for the history books, 60 minutes and Warner Brothers in the future.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZYHMMMeHic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kePiiZ8_YA&list=PLAx74QflF5_FrdW3IAyfJy8oyCgXZ7MrO

Stationair8

9th Mar 2018, 06:28

Why stuff round being a pilot, when the MFB get their new EBA up in Victoria- a very cruisy lifestyle for being a firey.

Foxxster

9th Mar 2018, 07:28

Might be of interest to some;

https://www.2gb.com/dick-smith-chinese-companies-taking-over-our-airports-complete-madness/

ComradeRoo

9th Mar 2018, 19:54

Might be of interest to some;

https://www.2gb.com/dick-smith-chinese-companies-taking-over-our-airports-complete-madness/

It actually works fine for everybody involved:
1. Chinese airlines will get their schools and their pilots. All of them on OZ license initially.
2. CASA will be reporting an increase in newly issued licenses and will be patting themselves on the back for an amazing job done.
3. HRs will continue denying the fact that the most of new CPL holders were trained for and will be absorbed by Chinese airlines.
4. Locals will finally get their shortage :)

Honestly, all above would have been just a joke if my old instructor wouldn't have put his school for sale. Guess who are the buyers?

dr dre

9th Mar 2018, 21:35

Might be of interest to some;

https://www.2gb.com/dick-smith-chinese-companies-taking-over-our-airports-complete-madness/

Mr Smith says we must prioritise our Australian pilots over Chinese investment.

What about the amount of Australian flight and ground instructor and support jobs those flying schools will create? I would’ve thought this would’ve worked on the 2GB listener base but on a professional pilot forum?

cbradio

10th Mar 2018, 12:01

on the 2GB listener base but on a professional pilot forum?

hard to tell the difference on a couple of these threads!! ☺

Clare Prop

11th Mar 2018, 01:07

Dick Smith is a private pilot. He is no more an expert on aviation than Geoffrey Thomas.

But if he wants to put his money where his mouth is then perhaps some of the money he made from importing electronic components from a certain part of the world could be used to set up scholarships for Australian students. How many generations back do you have to go to be Australian enough for him.

His perceived Yellow Peril isn't the problem. Chinese students have created jobs and career opportunities for pilots to gain that valuable command time as well as provided employment in regional areas. It took Smith 20+ years to discover they had been operating at Merredin and still not a single tank in sight...not a student in sight either as it's been a year since they operated.

The problem is the behaviour and price gouging of the federal airport leaseholders, CASA creating an uneven playing field by allowing RA-Aus to compete directly with GA flying schools and the Fee Help debacles, mind boggling incompetence and witch hunting by CASA; these are some of the things that have made so many schools have to close their doors.

Oldbrigade

11th Mar 2018, 05:36

Rex is feeling the crunch. 40 captains have left for majors in the past 6 months while many others wait for their start dates. With their requirements as high as some of the majors they are being overlooked and it might be a little scary where they end up in the coming months.
The Regional Operators in this country have only themselves to blame for their pilot crewing problems. Career minded young men and women will always take advantage of spikes in recruitment levels, and the Regionals know that. There is however an abundance of highly experienced retired airline pilots in Australia who are fit, extremely capable, and readily open to providing their services. At most, a type rating and minimum online training, would see them up and away with no fuss.
Some would be happy to work full time, and others perhaps part time. These guys know how to get the job done, safely, efficiently, and at minimum cost. Ritzy interviews by talent departments ( the new buzzword) and psychometric testing is not required. Unfortunately, there is an enormous bias in this country by REGIONALS against retired airline pilots. One can only speculate as to the reasons, but most of them don’t pass the pub test. I refer to the likes of National Jet, Cobham, Skippers, Qlink, RFDS, VARA, Network, Corporate Air, Air North and indeed CASA. The retired network is alive with stories of applications submitted that were ignored without even the common decency of a reply. It would only take some serious imaginative thinking by the Boards of these operators to plug the gaps created by the major’s recruitment drive. Unfortunately,I have no confidence that the immature attitudes that are indemic in Australian Regional Aviation will change for the benefit of aviators who still want to work, and indeed the overall enhancement of safety in the industry.

Keith Myath

11th Mar 2018, 06:27

Pilots are a vital ingredient to an airline, for without pilots, those expensive aircraft generate zero revenue sitting on the ground.

Smarter airlines realising the demographic structural shortage and are moving away from adversarial IR models.

Interestingly those costs once TRANSFERRED to the employees, including type ratings are now correctly being absorbed by the company as a COST of BUSINESS.

This is not a result of benevolence, it is necessity. There is a real sustained and accelerating shortage.

There is a growing and obvious shortage which is not as Mr Booth from the AFAP alleges, and I paraphrase 'part of the business cycle'

Whilst no one is advocating ambit claims from unions. Unions ought understand the shortage and the leverage it delivers to restore balance to their members remuneration and life balance./ s

So what would you have him say? Admit there is a structural shortage? Do you even realise that the very thing you’re trumpeting (Structural Pilot Shortage) is the very thing that the Airlines and Government will use to enhance the skilled visa program.

What you’re advocating will allow more overseas pilots into Australia on permanent residency visas, at the expense of the current generation of pilots, and at the expense of forcing Airlines to open up training academies and pay for training – you know, wear the risk of expensive pilot training.

Your agenda on here is as clear as it is misguided. Qantas will never be short of pilots (with the caveat that their useless ‘talent acquisition’ team doesn’t f@#K things up any more than they already have). There will be increased recruitment, and there are be plenty of qualified applicants from cadets, GA, regionals, LCC’s, expats, and other airlines. How many Qantas pilots are leaving to work for other airlines? Paying more to a Qantas pilot does not change the age 65 requirements, medical requirements, or make them live longer to delay retirement. If you want better conditions, man up and take hard action – red ties and PA’s won’t cut it. Don’t try to pontificate and ham up a shortage that will result in permanent residency visas that will f@#k the regional pilots’ prospects of improving their lot.

So the AFAP’s position is clear on the shortage; it’s cyclical – and can be solved with training and retention through better conditions in the operators it’s affecting (predominantly the regionals and GA, but extending to the LCC’s). If you read all of the AFAP’s press on this you’d understand they advocate both increased conditions and increased training.

What’s AIPA’s position? What public statements have they released? Are they advocating a structural shortage? Or are you the lone wolf and all the unions are wrong?

You bang on about Qantas’ ‘adversarial IR model’. I agree, it's adversarial, so why pretend that it will somehow revert to a more gentlemanly or dare I say progressive approach. Under current management the Marquess of Queensberry Rules don’t apply. If they want adversarial, give them adversarial. You know what it costs to ground an airline, get some mongrel in you and get adversarial.

Foxxster

11th Mar 2018, 07:21

Dick Smith is a private pilot. He is no more an expert on aviation than Geoffrey Thomas.
.

Really? Yes it was quite a while ago but by the sounds of it he has maintained a close eye on their operations since he left. Comparing someone who spent 4 years as head of or chairman of the regulatory body to an aviation journalist is somewhat disingenuous to say the least.

having been appointed by Prime Minister Bob Hawke to be Chairman of the Board of the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) from February 1990 to February 1992. He also served as Deputy-Chairman and Chairman of the Board of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA, the CAA's regulatory successor after the 1995 de-merger of the government's aviation operations including air traffic control) from 1997 until his resignation in 1999

The Green Goblin

12th Mar 2018, 00:56

I don’t know about the old fellas working the regionals. I found the multi sector days (up to 8) pretty tough in my 20s with no ground support.

I wouldn’t want to do it 65+ that’s for sure.

I personally love flying with the older guys and always learn a lot from them. After all, many of these guys earned their stripes flying with the guys who were the pioneers.

I don’t think it’s a solution though, and let’s face it. You don’t hang your hat up and then want to go fly a Saab to CTAFs in marginal weather. If you really wanted to fly, you could have stayed at least a domestic captain.

ExtraShot

12th Mar 2018, 01:28

If you really wanted to fly, you could have stayed at least a domestic captain

Even better, if people still have the desire to REALLY fly during their retirement, offer them a way to become instructors down at the local flying schools (ie: make it easy for them and not have it cost an arm and a leg-or preferably, not cost anything), and have them address the shortage directly!

DeltaT

12th Mar 2018, 03:00

Reality check for job interviews (http://www.dumpaday.com/funny-pictures/funny-memes-see-going-job-interview-22-pics/)

Rated De

12th Mar 2018, 05:19

So what would you have him say? Admit there is a structural shortage? Do you even realise that the very thing you’re trumpeting (Structural Pilot Shortage) is the very thing that the Airlines and Government will use to enhance the skilled visa program.

Sorry Keith the 457 Horse bolted.

What’s AIPA’s position? What public statements have they released? Are they advocating a structural shortage? Or are you the lone wolf and all the unions are wrong?As for keeping it quiet or 'lone wolf', go and google pilot shortage, it is an open secret.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/travel/5502059/airlines-offer-354000-salary-tax-free-as-world-faces-massive-pilot-shortage/

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/dec/28/pilot-shortage-australia-to-relax-visa-laws-to-attract-foreign-flyers

Having actually read the demographic shortage problem which is evident in literally every western economy it is not just pilots in demand.

3101.0 - Australian Demographic Statistics, Jun 2017 (http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/DetailsPage/3101.0Jun%202017?OpenDocument)

https://www.bls.gov/cps/demographics.htm

Union reps need to read the data and then maybe they will push back.

On this Keith we are in furious agreement:

You bang on about Qantas’ ‘adversarial IR model’. I agree, it's adversarial, so why pretend that it will somehow revert to a more gentlemanly or dare I say progressive approach. Under current management the Marquess of Queensberry Rules don’t apply. If they want adversarial, give them adversarial. You know what it costs to ground an airline, get some mongrel in you and get adversarial. Until it starts costing them on the things they bother counting, union pleas for 'fair play' will be dismissed. It is the shortage that gives pilots leverage, it won't be Australian airline management.

LeadSled

13th Mar 2018, 07:59

Dick Smith is a private pilot. He is no more an expert on aviation than Geoffrey Thomas.

Clare Prop,
That is one of the more stupid things I have seen written about Dick. So you do a few more exams and a flight test and get a CPL or up, that immediately makes you an expert on the aviation industry.

I don't think so!!

But don't take my word for it, here is what Max Hazelton had to say, I presume you do know who Max is??:

For those who believe Dick Smith has no more experience that Geoffrey Thomas, below is text from a bio on Dick written by Max Hazelton a number of years ago:

“Dick Smith learnt to fly in 1972 gaining his Command Instrument Rating in 1983. In 1991 he qualified for one of most specialised ratings of all, the approval to fly a jet aircraft as a single pilot.

Dick Smith has flown a total time of over 10,000 hours including over 1,000 hours single pilot jet time. He has made five flights around the world as pilot in command. Each of these flights has succeeded on time and as scheduled because of meticulous planning and thorough risk management.

Dick Smith was appointed to the CAA Board in 1988 and was appointed its Chairman in 1989 by the then Prime Minister, Bob Hawke. As Chairman of the CAA, his Board and Management made major policy decisions including a change in direction to purchase a modern, “Two Centre” radar based air traffic control system using a proven design. The decision was also made to move to an international airspace system.

Dick Smith was appointed the Chairman of the Civil Aviation Safety Authority by the Transport Minister, Mark Vaile, in 1997. Dick was a member of the Aviation Reform Group from 2002 to 2004, and was a member of the Minister’s Aviation Regulation Review Taskforce.

Over more than fifteen years, Dick Smith has travelled the World and met with the leaders of air safety regulation in the USA, Canada, UK, New Zealand and France. During this time he has gained an extensive knowledge of airspace design.

He holds the United Kingdom’s Guild of Air Navigators Sword of Honour, the Australian Oswald Watt Medal and the United States Lindbergh Award. In 1999 he was awarded the Order of Australia for his service to the Australian aviation industry. In 2013 Dick was inducted into the Australian Aviation Hall of Fame and in 2015 his Order of Australia was advanced to a Companion of the Order of Australia for amongst other things, his eminent service to aviation.

Dick Smith is genuinely concerned about aviation safety in Australia. He is also concerned that important air traffic reforms that were started by the Hawke Government in 1990 have not been completed.”
And Max barely scratched the surface.

How many self confessed "professional" pilots can even get close to that, for qualifications to speak about the aviation sector in Australia.

And, just in passing, I have quite often flown with Dick over the years, sometime in very inclement weather, he is a bleeding sight better stick and rudder man than many airline pilots I have known, probably because of his much broader type and geographic experience than many military/airline pilots.

Tootle pip!!

Centaurus

13th Mar 2018, 13:17

there is an enormous bias in this country by REGIONALS against retired airline pilots

Has been like that for many years. In 1985 I was retrenched from an overseas airline where I had been flying 737's. I was 53 at the time. I applied to Kendalls as a first officer. I even talked to Don Kendall. He was blunt on the phone and told me he would not embarrass his young captains by having an old bloke like me with them in the cockpit. He then added salt into the wound by saying sneeringly that in any case he doubted at my age I could lift passenger suitcases into the hold.

Similar attitude when I applied to an MU2 operator. His reply was that being on the 737 I would not have the ability to fly single pilot IFR and in any case, being ex RAAF, I would expect too much of the serviceability of the aircraft. Then going back a few decades to 1956 I had an interview with Ansett. I was then 24 with RAAF experience including over 1000 hours command on four-engine bombers. Thanks, but no thanks. Reason given? I was too old for Ansett at age 24 and in any case Ansett preferred GA pilots to ex RAAF.

KRUSTY 34

13th Mar 2018, 20:02

Bloody Hell Centauris, talk about timing.

When I was a freshly minted CPL (at the ripe old age of 24), unless you had at least 2,500 hours and a thousand multi by 25, you were NEVER going to be accepted by a major Domestic carrier!

Funny how the Airline’s requirements of demographic/experience has changed in the face of the demands on supply.

A man could become quite cynical. :rolleyes:

Jeps

13th Mar 2018, 21:11

Krusty and Centauraus,

Being in my 20s now I have never heard anything of the sort. Shows how things have changed. And that alot of people in their 40s and 50s having second careers in flying seem to find that advantageous. Came across an SO not so long ago with a 10 years of service lanyard at QF who was older than the captain.

bafanguy

13th Mar 2018, 21:20

A man could become quite cynical. :rolleyes:

KRUSTY,

Anyone who isn't cynical (and skeptical) isn't paying attention. Perhaps there's an advantage to those who aren't.

KRUSTY 34

13th Mar 2018, 21:51

I hear ya guys.

Captain Nomad

14th Mar 2018, 01:14

When I was a freshly minted CPL (at the ripe old age of 24), unless you had at least 2,500 hours and a thousand multi by 25, you were NEVER going to be accepted by a major Domestic carrier!

And yet not so long ago, around the time Ansett went bust, 2,500 hours was no where near enough to even get a look in at flying a Chieftain with a charter mob... :(

Lookleft

14th Mar 2018, 02:28

Then going back a few decades to 1956 I had an interview with Ansett. I was then 24 with RAAF experience including over 1000 hours command on four-engine bombers. Thanks, but no thanks. Reason given? I was too old for Ansett at age 24 and in any case Ansett preferred GA pilots to ex RAAF.

So what did Qantas and TAA say to you? I assume you also applied to them.

stormfury

14th Mar 2018, 14:01

I wonder when/if Oz HR departments will have a similar attitude.
"My personal goal is as many as we can get—minimum at 400,” Nguyen said. “Our attrition is very high as well. So we lose about 20 to 30 to 35, sometimes 40, pilots to major airlines each month."

Airlines Recruiting Like Crazy To Address Pilot Shortage | KUOW News and Information (http://kuow.org/post/airlines-recruiting-crazy-address-pilot-shortage)

LeadSled

14th Mar 2018, 14:18

It actually works fine for everybody involved:
1. Chinese airlines will get their schools and their pilots. All of them on OZ license initially.
2. CASA will be reporting an increase in newly issued licenses and will be patting themselves on the back for an amazing job done.

Folks,
Probably not, in the case of the contracts with PRC airlines.
The training will be done as "students" and the only license issued will be a CAAC MPL.
I am sure CASA will look for other ways of taking entirely undeserved credit, but if CASA treat any of the schools the way China Southern WAFC has been treated, they will be off out of Australia like fartled stawns ----- again!!
Tootle pip!!

Berealgetreal

14th Mar 2018, 23:53

So we lose about 20 to 30 to 35, sometimes 40, pilots to major airlines each month."
So your conditions aren’t up to scratch. All good normally but when things pick up people leave.

stormfury

15th Mar 2018, 01:24

So your conditions aren’t up to scratch. All good normally but when things pick up people leave.

Exactly!!!! People will move to a position where they are either respected and/or remunerated properly. That said, currently, there is no shortage of younger folk willing to endure the pain of low wages until they have the hours to move onto something better. This is something aviation HR departments need to acknowledge and address or they will always be one step behind and floundering to get experienced pilots to stay.

Icarus2001

15th Mar 2018, 04:31

The training will be done as "students" and the only license issued will be a CAAC MPL.

Leadsled is correct, foreign students normally only obtain a SPL in Australia.

CaptainJim

15th Mar 2018, 09:03

Not my problem if you didn’t do it.

Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DEC’s. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.

I’ve never seen such an inability to see the other sides point of view. Do you not see how your wild predictions merely support your own aspirations. (This is how wars start) You think you are hot :mad: because you got your widebody command and that everyone with less hours flying a narrow body is beneath you but secretly the reality is dawning on you of how empty life is in an ME3 :mad: hole on let’s face it mediocre money these days given the cost of living and quality of life. You made your decision so grow up and accept the consequences. The world doesn’t revolve around you mate.

FYI I’m not an Aussie and I work in China and I will probably be in the same boat when I leave. That’s life!

morno

15th Mar 2018, 16:20

:rolleyes:

Merely an opinion Jim. You don’t have to berate me in that manner.

You’re fairly off on my own personal circumstances as well. I don’t live anywhere near the Middle East nor Fly a widebody.

But who cares, that’s not the topic of discussion.

See you back in Oz Jimmy!

ComradeRoo

15th Mar 2018, 18:31

Folks,
Probably not, in the case of the contracts with PRC airlines.
The training will be done as "students" and the only license issued will be a CAAC MPL.
I am sure CASA will look for other ways of taking entirely undeserved credit, but if CASA treat any of the schools the way China Southern WAFC has been treated, they will be off out of Australia like fartled stawns ----- again!!
Tootle pip!!

Thanks, it surprised me a lot. Are you saying that they will be completing integrated courses including ME and IR and won't get anything at the end? What about theory exams and MCC?

I know several people who had their initial training done in States - they all got their US licenses. My assumption was that we do it the same way.

LeadSled

16th Mar 2018, 07:46

ComradeRoo,
They will all be completing courses, the components of which will, when completed, satisfy the all the CAAC requirements for the issue of an MPL. The final part of the course, an airline type aircraft type rating and route training, is conducted in conjunction with the sponsoring airline.

The Australian licensing and rating structure is largely irrelevant. Indeed, the less they have to do with CASA, the better the sponsoring airlines like it.

This is not limited to PR China, as I understand it there are now courses being conducted here under EASA approvals where the license finally issued will be an EASA MPL issued by the national authority of the sponsoring airline in the EU.

The positive attractiveness of Australia for training is the wide open spaces and good weather, ie; no airspace restrictions, the very significant negatives are CASA and officious bureaucracy in general, and relatively high costs, compared to Canada and the US.

Those high costs are largely brought about by CASA and officious bureaucracy in general.

Tootle pip!!

PS: It would be interesting to see the reaction to the idea of running an FAA Part 142 flying school in Australia, all with N- registered aircraft.

Seagull201

16th Mar 2018, 08:27

Quote:The training will be done as "students" and the only license issued will be a CAAC MPL.
Quote: Leadsled is correct, foreign students normally only obtain a SPL in Australia.

If foreign students such as from China, don't obtain any AU pilot qualifications during their training on Australian territory, how can they legally fly solo, during cross country training under a SPL (student pilot license) ?

How would insurance cover this if there was a mishap?

Quote:
This is not limited to PR China, as I understand it there are now courses being conducted here under EASA approvals where the license finally issued will be an EASA MPL issued by the national authority of the sponsoring airline in the EU.

Where are courses being conducted for a EU MPL at the moment in AU?
Perth had JAA courses previously.
Don't know anyone in the JAA member states that has a MPL?

.

stormfury

16th Mar 2018, 19:17

If foreign students such as from China, don't obtain any AU pilot qualifications during their training on Australian territory, how can they legally fly solo, during cross country training under a SPL (student pilot license) ?

How would insurance cover this if there was a mishap?

From the CASA website: “Do I need a licence to fly as a student pilot?

You don't need a licence to fly as a student because you are under the supervision of a flight instructor and you flying school at all times while you are learning, including when you are flying solo.

However, to fly solo you need to have an aviation reference number, which you can obtain from CASA, and you need to provide CASA with your proof of identity.

To fly solo, you also need to hold a medical certificate.

Refer to CASA's information sheets about learning to fly and medical requirements for flight crew for more information.”

https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-page/learning-fly-student-pilots

LeadSled

17th Mar 2018, 03:34

Seagull201,
JAA is long since extinct, and the whole policy base of the current EASA has turned much of the JAA approach on its head.

For example:
(1) EASA's approach to regulation is outcome based, not JAA prescriptive.
(2) The current head of EASA has shut down the rule-making branch, on the basis of: "if you hire a body of people to write rules, that is exactly what they will do, to justify their existence".

If you have any doubt about (2) just look at CASA.

Don't know anyone in the JAA member states that has a MPL?The very first MPLs issued were by one of the Scandinavian states, very closely followed by CAAC. I can't remember the name of the airline, but I do recall that they commented that MPL trained pilots were better prepared for initial line operations as F/Os than conventional intake pilots.

Tootle pip!!

pilotchute

17th Mar 2018, 05:17

Sterling was the first MPL airline. They went broke in 2007 and all their MPL graduates found work with other airlines.

Clare Prop

17th Mar 2018, 05:35

No such thing as a Student Pilot Licence.

Berealgetreal

17th Mar 2018, 09:50

LeasSled, is the CASA licence to EASA licence still as long as it was under JAR? As in the recognise nothing of the Aus licence and experience.

clear to land

17th Mar 2018, 16:43

Bereal-doesnt matter what your background or experience- to fly in EASA land (except for a potential 12 month validation) you need to complete an EASA Licence which is all 14 Theory examinations, then IR/Sim Check. There is absolutely NO credit for prior experience re: Theory exams eg I am a 777 TRE with 3 x ICAO ATPL's (including Australia). Under EASA rules I am considered the equivalent of an 18 year old school leaver. I just wish the rest of the world would treat the EASA people the same - it may lead to change. :ugh:

Berealgetreal

17th Mar 2018, 20:23

Thanks, that’s what I expected. I’m not doing those exams or the licence conversion unless I have to (out of just job in Aus and can’t get another). Assume the 12 month thing is “job for 12 but you need to turn up on the last day with all passes to continue.

With the flying component do you have to start right back at GFPT PPL etc?

Shows what a “shortage” there is. Exactly what I said in my long post on the matter: no shortage of 18 year olds willing to fork out for a cadet scheme with a LCC. Hell over there they aren’t even giving concessions to guys like clear to land!

TUNKA

17th Mar 2018, 20:48

The training will be done as "students" and the only license issued will be a CAAC MPL.

I can't speak for all and have certainly seen MPL programs, but many Chinese airline cadets in Australia are getting a CASA PPL, IR and CPL.

Chocks Away

17th Mar 2018, 23:12

Clear to Land, exactly!
I just wish the rest of the world would treat the EASA people the same - it may lead to change.
I'm in the same boat as ClearTL and tried for recognition through Ireland but got the same reply. An incredible money spinner, that's ignorant and adding to the shortage.
Happy Landings:ok:

AerocatS2A

18th Mar 2018, 04:46

Thanks, that’s what I expected. I’m not doing those exams or the licence conversion unless I have to (out of just job in Aus and can’t get another). Assume the 12 month thing is “job for 12 but you need to turn up on the last day with all passes to continue.

With the flying component do you have to start right back at GFPT PPL etc?

Hours are recognised.

You have to sit and pass the exams (no need to complete a course, just do what you have to to pass) and then a flight test.

Ozgrade3

18th Mar 2018, 05:20

Pprune has degenerated to the level of an aeroclub bar. The people who have the real knowledge no longer come online.

All Chinese students get a CASA RPL, CPL, IFR licences and ratings. I have filled out 1257 licence applications for CASA licences ............personally. The printed CASA licences then come back through my desk. Not CAAC licences, CASA licences.

It's interestign that even CASA has lost technical expertise, they have been recently started issuing (some) CPL licences without an MPPC/RU endorsement despite having the paperwork. They are adept at losing stuff that is sent to them.

When you send CASA documents, always staple everything together, always have a backup copy of what you send. Always send it registered mail. They can't claim to not have recievd something when you have a picked up notification from Aus Post.

LeadSled

18th Mar 2018, 06:36

but many Chinese airline cadets in Australia are getting a CASA PPL, IR and CPL.

True, but these are mostly the self sponsored students, not students on airline sponsored courses. It is the MPL that suits airlines, for many obvious reasons, and you fundamentally cannot achieve an MPL without s sponsoring airline.

All Chinese students get a CASA RPL, CPL, IFR licences and ratings.

ozgrade3,
I really don't think so, maybe whoever you are dealing with?? What is your basis for making such a sweeping statement??
With the very first trial of the MPL within the joint CASA/CAAC program, CAAC issued the MPL. How many CASA MPLs have been issued.

without an MPPC/RU endorsement

And what other dopy system even requires such micro-management of aircraft equipment.

Tootle pip!!

PS: Sadly, aero club bars are a rare thing these days.
But never mind, Ozgrade 3, I am speaking as one who was directly involved in the early days of the MPL and related standards, including the battle against one pilot union whose, along with much of the Australian aviation community, was fiercely opposed, despite the fundamentals having underpinned airline pilot training in may parts of the world since the 1960s.
Really, all the ICAO MPL rules did was tidy up a bit of a mess of exemptions and concessions. And you should keep up with the latest (published) developments.

bravocharliedelta

18th Mar 2018, 06:46

True, but these are mostly the self sponsored students, not students on airline sponsored courses. It is the MPL that suits airlines, for many obvious reasons, and you fundamentally cannot achieve an MPL without s sponsoring airline.

ozgrade3,
I really don't think so, maybe whoever you are dealing with?? What is your basis for making such a sweeping statement??
With the very first trial of the MPL within the joint CASA/CAAC program, CAAC issued the MPL. How many CASA MPLs have been issued.

Tootle pip!!

Yea, at the very most, MPL cadets would probably receive a CASA RPL or PPL during the basic core flying phase in a SE piston aircraft. They will probably proceed back home to continue their MCC and jet training. At the end of that, their CAAC MPL.

CurtainTwitcher

18th Mar 2018, 07:09

How many CASA MPLs have been issued.
Six in total, all in 2009. CASA has a blurb in their 2008-09 Annual Report (https://www.casa.gov.au/publications-and-resources/standard-page/annual-report-2008-09), page 65 about the introduction of the MPL. The numbers are confirmed as having been issued and current in the 2008-09 year (2010-11 report (https://www.casa.gov.au/publications-and-resources/standard-page/annual-report-2010-2011), part 6 operating statistics). The current report (2016-17 (https://www.casa.gov.au/sites/g/files/net351/f/annual_report1617-part6.pdf?v=1508473632))shows no current MPL's issued or current since at least since 2012. I would be confident there weren't any issued between 2011 and 2013, but someone else can trawl the intervening Annual Reports (https://www.casa.gov.au/publications-and-resources/landing-page/corporate-publications) to confirm.

postscript: The 2012 report shows six listed as "current" in 2010-11, nil issued. Interestingly it looks like the six lapsed for a two year period before revalidation.

Berealgetreal

18th Mar 2018, 09:19

A Squared

18th Mar 2018, 17:09

No such thing as a Student Pilot Licence.

For what it's worth, there is in the US. I Know, this discussion is about Oz, so this isn't disputing what you said. It is issued with your first medical certificate (Or used to be, honestly my understanding of what's going on now with medical certification at the PP level is a little fuzzy) It doesn't really confer any priveliges without an instructors endorsement for solo flights. But you are required to have it for solo flight.

LeadSled

19th Mar 2018, 02:50

"sweeping statements"

Folks,
Maybe my wording was a little sweeping, but, nonetheless it has been made pretty clear to me that a number of PR China airlines have moved/are moving/will move to cadets doing an MPL course only.
Indeed, cadets having a number of "foreign" qualifications, for various reasons, is seen as a negative.
The Chief Executive of one major carrier was quite scathing about the need for various CASA qualifications, and welcomed the Part 61 changes that allowed them to dispense with same, and just train for an MPL.
In the same vein, the chap who oversees all overseas cadet training operations for one of the major PR China groups was equally scathing about CASA in general, all they have in Australia is a bit of "overflow" capacity.
As various PR China groups take control of training organisations here, they will make major changes, they are only interested in outcomes that suit them, not conforming the our system, if they are irrelevant to the desired outcomes.
Most of these groups are well aware of the ability of Australian bureaucracy in general, and CASA in particular, to cause mayhem, which is why Australia has largely missed out on the contract training boom to CA/USA/NZ, with the resultant loss/lack of jobs in the sector here.
Where do I get all this?? In China, and in particulate at major conferences, such as those held in X'ian periodically.
Tootle pip!!

Rated De

22nd Mar 2018, 09:03

Today we’ve opened up pilot recruitment to the broader industry for mainline Second Officer positions, for the second time in nine years. We’ve also taken the opportunity to re-advertise other pilot positions that are available across the Group.

This was sent to me (is Qantas) and ought indicate for the few clinging to the old paradigm that Qantas has finally cottoned on to the growing structural shortage...

Now if pilots can actually leverage the new paradigm to stop giving ground.

AerocatS2A

22nd Mar 2018, 09:29

This was sent to me (is Qantas) and ought indicate for the few clinging to the old paradigm that Qantas has finally cottoned on to the growing structural shortage...

Now if pilots can actually leverage the new paradigm to stop giving ground.

No mention of academic requirements, i.e., passes in year 12 subjects :cool:.

KRUSTY 34

22nd Mar 2018, 09:41

No mention of academic requirements, i.e., passes in year 12 subjects :cool:.

Apparently no longer a requirement!

Berealgetreal

23rd Mar 2018, 03:51

Dropping of the requirements was outlined in an email a few weeks ago.

gordonfvckingramsay

23rd Mar 2018, 10:09

The dropping of year 12 requirements, whilst quite unnecessary, is symptomatic of a company feeling that it needs to widen its net. A company widening its net, is becoming concerned and tberefore showing its hand. Leverage the sh!t out of that!

Jeps

23rd Mar 2018, 10:11

Thought they would probably get rid of some other requirements but to get rid of year 12 as well.....boy

Keg

23rd Mar 2018, 10:20

No mention of academic requirements, i.e., passes in year 12 subjects :cool:.

Passes in ATPL subjects deemed to demonstrate the required level of mental aptitude.... plus probably what Gordon said! :E

AerocatS2A

23rd Mar 2018, 10:25

Thanks AerocatS2A. So for a boeing or airbus driver: Medical, 14 exams and a sim ride?

With the exams, how do they do them over there? Database of questions thats very similar to the exam or books followed by exams?

Not sure, I haven't done it yet. About £800 to get a CBT from Bristol (https://www.bristol.gs/). Exams can be done in various places around the world, though as far as I can tell there are no Australia based sittings.

Berealgetreal

23rd Mar 2018, 11:54

Years ago you could do it in Perth. There was also a CAA med examiner on the Sunshine Coast. The initial issue had to be done at Gatwick however. I’ve toyed with it for two decades. Should have done it before JAR. Long time ago but i came very close.

mattyj

23rd Mar 2018, 22:51

Dropping the year 12 requirement is probably just a function of the low quality education the schools are giving our snowflakes these days

Berealgetreal

24th Mar 2018, 01:50

Is it a database of questions?

Berealgetreal

24th Mar 2018, 06:57

That’s interesting information indeed. I’ve only heard bad things to date about the euro exams. What are the job prospects like over there? Conditions?

AerocatS2A

24th Mar 2018, 10:01

That’s interesting information indeed. I’ve only heard bad things to date about the euro exams. What are the job prospects like over there? Conditions?

Lots of places taking DE commands. Ryanair, Easyjet, Norwegian I think. You don't even need an endorsement for some of them.

pilotchute

24th Mar 2018, 15:13

Did I just slip through a worm hole and end up in a Euro forum on pilot shortage?

patty50

25th Mar 2018, 06:25

Did I just slip through a worm hole and end up in a Euro forum on pilot shortage?

The shortage isn’t here yet, so we console ourselves with shortages overseas.

We’re just relieving some overdue hiring pressure.

Chocks Away

26th Mar 2018, 07:02

"The shortage isn't here yet..."
Are you serious?
You must have blinkers on or reading the wrong trade journals & jobs pages buddy because EVERYONE is recruiting. Yes including in Australia! :ugh:
I know two regionals that will go backrupt by June if they don't recruit crew to keep their airframes in the air and fulfill their contracts. They already have aircraft "parked against the fence".
Every carrier in Australia has been or currently still is recruiting and that goes all the way down to the small charter operators... heck it's been a very long time since I've seen the large Pastoral Companies advertise like they have recently... that my friend, IS a shortage.

Happy Landings:ok:

dragon man

26th Mar 2018, 07:20

I know of one operator in Darwin short of 6 pilots and another 20. Planes are up against the fence it is a massive crisis and as said operators will be going broke soon. Even those that can get pilots are losing them within 6 months.

Rated De

26th Mar 2018, 07:39

"The shortage isn't here yet..."
Are you serious? Yes they are, trapped in a time warp.
Article after article but somehow Australian exceptionalism was a standout, no shortage in Straya.

Qantas have embarked on a distraction to divide their pilots, 457 visas over Christmas, Network A320 and jetconnect, all standard IR responses to a cyclical shortage. This is not cyclical.

Rumour from a well placed source stated board discussion was indeed focused on pilot shortage to which Mr Joyce allegedly responded that there were measures in place to source 400 pilots by CY end.

The Qantas cadet school The little emperor's 'centrepiece' in his epic battle against pilots. (You know the school without a location, an AOC , instructors or students)

The big distraction will be a quick and dirty contract negotiation, try and scare the herd with the mentioned IR posturing in order to preserve what is left of the floor that is Australian terms and conditions. A long term contract......

redsnail

26th Mar 2018, 08:12

Regarding the European market (My apologies to those not interested).
easyJet (Airbus) take on DEC every now and then, not often. They do hoover up MPL and full time cadet pilots from L3 and Oxford.
Ryanair (Boeing 737), they are on the charm offensive and hiring a lot of people.
Norwegian (Boeing etc), definitely hiring experienced pilots. Ratings not required, ideally, experience in wide bodies or command on 40+ tonne jets useful.
We're hiring, but you'll be an FO for 10 years. :( (Large fractional bizjet operator)
Jet2 (Boeing 737 classic), hiring, usually quick commands for those with experience. Most folks I know do a year or two and jump to Virgin Atlantic if they can.
Vistajet, don't know, probably hiring.
BA etc, probably hiring.
Eurowings, hiring. (Must speak German)
Air France, hiring. (Must speak French)
Finnair, hiring (Must speak Finnish or Swedish).
UK regionals, various European regionals, hiring.

You'll need right of abode etc, EASA medical, exams and a licence... Budget a year to do it all. Unfortunately, in that time, it could all be over. Then the only folks hiring are easyJet and Ryanair and they'll take their cadets over experienced pilots.

Several airlines have recently gone bust, Air Berlin, Air Nikki, Monarch. Fortunately, the pilots were picked up by easyJet and Lufthansa. Alitalia's teetering on the edge again....

DeltaT

26th Mar 2018, 19:29

"The shortage isn't here yet..."
Are you serious?
You must have blinkers on or reading the wrong trade journals & jobs pages buddy because EVERYONE is recruiting. Yes including in Australia!

I meet the mins nearly everytime and have been applying to all jet operators advertising since end of Feb and a few select turboprop ones.
I have heard nothing back apart from acknowledgement of receipt.

I know of one operator in Darwin short of 6 pilots and another 20. Planes are up against the fence it is a massive crisis and as said operators will be going broke soon. Even those that can get pilots are losing them within 6 months.

Either they are being too picky, or they are not paying well.

pilotchute

26th Mar 2018, 20:16

That's the problem. Operators wanting 2000TT and 500 multi PIC to sit RHS of a S340 or a Metro?

Qlink knocking people back for not having recent IFR time.

There either isn't a shortage yet or management and HR are in denial.

Blitzkrieger

26th Mar 2018, 21:13

It has been said many times before; there is a shortage of pilots willing to work long hours for mediocre pay in Australia, not a shortage of pilots overall, yet. There are some exceptions to this, but generally, pilots are at the transition point where the group think is overpowering the IR/HR games. The only thing preventing this from being a rapid change is the highly resourced IR/HR departments who have been tasked with the job of perpetuating the myth that "times are tough" etc.

The party was long and we all drank in the myth to excess, but we are now waking up and seeing that the beauty we fell so easily for last night was really some bloke wearing a wig and a dress. The hangover will be very entertaining to watch from here.

A Squared

26th Mar 2018, 21:23

The party was long and we all drank in the myth to excess, but we are now waking up and seeing that the beauty we fell so easily for last night was really some bloke wearing a wig and a dress. The hangover will be very entertaining to watch from here.

That's quite a metaphor you've got going there.

stormfury

26th Mar 2018, 22:30

Sounds like you had a bad experience on a night out in Thailand - not judging though.

havick

26th Mar 2018, 22:32

Berealgetreal

27th Mar 2018, 00:12

red snail thanks for the update.

Yes there is a point cash wise that will be impossible or stupid to ignore.

megan

27th Mar 2018, 00:41

Either they are being too picky, or they are not paying wellKnow one of the operators of which the poster speaks. Conditions are top notch, salary in excess of GA standards, no expense spared on training, but it's very, very demanding flying in a professional sense, so they do demand a certain level of experience and demonstrated ability in the training (picky?), and on a recent round of recruitment only got one applicant who didn't even get close on requirements.

pilotchute

27th Mar 2018, 01:05

Megan,

If you have good Capts and a good training dept there is no need for a FO on a Metro/S340 to have 2000TT and 500 ME command.

Dragon Air take A330's with a 200 hour FO into very high workload Chinese airspace. Throw in some CB's and you have a party!

I can't for the life of me figure out why a Metro/Saab operator would need such high mins for the RHS. Apart from maybe they have a low cap AOC requiring 500 ME PIC for upgrade.

Berealgetreal

27th Mar 2018, 01:54

junior.VH-LFA

27th Mar 2018, 05:18

redsnail

27th Mar 2018, 10:29

To answer Berealgetreal's question. (Look away if you're not interested in Europe)

As far as I know, neither operator allows unions. There's a very big clue. Although, recently, Ryanair are making noises about permitting unions to negotiate. They had to. Norwegian hoovered up a lot of Boeing pilots and very few experienced pilots were interested to join Ryanair. Ryanair's original contracts weren't bad as you were directly employed etc. Now, you're self employed through a limited company that they encourage you to set up. So you pay yourself, your taxes, your holidays etc. You also pay for your accommodation when at the sim etc. Unfortunately for many pilots, the tax departments of several countries have become very interested in these arrangements and some pilots have found themselves on the receiving end of rather large tax bills. On the plus side, their training is good, equipment new and you'll gain a lot of hours quickly.

Norwegian has a similar set up. They use OSM and many contracts are located in Thailand. Since they've been expanding rapidly, opportunities have been available for fleet changes and or upgrades/promotions so the grumbling isn't too loud yet. See Terms and Endearments for more info.

megan

28th Mar 2018, 00:45

pilotchute, the particular job is single pilot.

Berealgetreal

28th Mar 2018, 04:44

Thanks redsnail. Doesn't inspire me to convert the licence just yet.

ElZilcho

28th Mar 2018, 06:21

What will really throw a cat amongst the pidgeons is when the China jobs go from 300k usd/year commuting to 500, 600k + /year in the foreseeable future.

There’s a point where money talks, and even legacies (worldwide) will struggle to compete with that kinda cash on offer, even if it is Asia and all the associated red tape, culture/CRM and way of doing business.

You're not wrong there, and I can't help but wonder what the future will hold for the Second Officer rank. Will they be forced to discontinue it in order to attract more experienced candidates, or will they embrace it and turn it into a Cadetship at severely reduced pay?

Honestly, when Airlines such as QF and Air NZ have Pilots with 5-10,000 hours sitting in the middle seat, it's clear just how much a good contract is worth.

sheppey

28th Mar 2018, 08:13

Qlink knocking people back for not having recent IFR time.

Do QLink want IFR flight plan time or are they looking for IMC time? Big difference because CASA don't recognise IFR flight plan time. Either way, pilots trying for QLink need to take the cue from the Australian test team and cheat a little by logging instrument flight time during CAVOK weather on every trip. Desperate times call for sometimes desperate measures when job hunting although personally I don't condone that sort of thing. Autopilot time is legal for IMC time. There is no CASA audit of logged IMC time and practically impossible for anyone to prove you were not IMC if you are fiddling the log book. There are even overseas operators who approve pilots to log 15 minutes of instrument flight time for every hour flown in order to ensure currency.

lo_lyf

28th Mar 2018, 08:49

CASA don't recognise IFR flight plan time

Apart from mandating it under CAO 82.3 Appendix 4? (Experience req. to act as PIC on RPT)

Brakerider

28th Mar 2018, 09:05

Apart from mandating it under CAO 82.3 Appendix 4? (Experience req. to act as PIC on RPT)

Which is for Low Capacity which doesn't apply to Qlink Operations.

Having said that, they obviously want recent IFR time because you're going to be flying IFR...Qlink isn't a flying school- they're stretched with training captains as it is without having to hold your hand and walk you through the Jepps.

Gnadenburg

28th Mar 2018, 09:08

Dragon Air take A330's with a 200 hour FO into very high workload Chinese airspace. Throw in some CB's and you have a party!

This is a massive liability to the captain and a risk. The hard landings, low level go arounds and seriously damaged aircraft are the cost. Just because they haven't crashed doesn't mean its OK.

Dragon Air also has a silly command upgrade program with a 100% failure rate at times due to a rightful paranoia about Asian operations and RHS inexperience.

That said, there's a new direction now. So we'll see.:sad:

Rated De

28th Mar 2018, 10:32

The amusing part of this is that the airlines have, in the Australian context done nothing to further that from what they feed.

https://s16-us2.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.clker.com%2Fcliparts%2F8%2F6 %2F3%2F1%2F1247116861252419930Ouroboros-simple.svg.hi.png&sp=25f3fe41bf7390e07ba583f7a095e136

Ourobouros is the concept from mythology.

Airlines selectively and at times of their choosing drained the supply.
The last airline sponsored cadet program was Qantas last century, albeit at taxpayer expense.

The rise of Low Fare Airlines and the magic labour unit cost reductions they achieved were driven in part by oversupply of pilots. Pilots paying for endorsements, interviews and even in the case of Ryan Air uniforms.

Meals were cut, salaries barely kept up with inflation and the industry was self satisfied; there were always new instructors training new commercial pilots.

Unlimited supply is at the foundation of the adversarial IR model employed by many airlines.

30 years is a long time for a paradigm to hold, but demographics always guaranteed that unlimited supply would fade and the airlines exacerbated the shortage by driving conditions, respect and careers ever downwards.

Just in the last year in Australia

Pilots added to the skilled shortages list
Jetconnect rolled into Australia without a whimper from the union concerned.
Network Aviation to get A320 (up to 20 from JQ)
Qantas to open a 'pilot training academy'
Qantas 'roadshows' asking staff to recommend friends!
ATPL requirements relaxed

With pilots having been pushed into positions where once sacred regulatory limits are targets for the HR practictioners, everyone is tired.

As the snake begins to consume its own tail, Mr Joyce could make a direct appeal to his 'professional company ambassadors' to go the extra mile. He has a 'short' memory as many Qantas pilots remember October 2011 only too well.

Rather amusing as it builds

Airbus A320321

28th Mar 2018, 17:17

‘Up to 20 A320s for Network’... that number keeps getting bigger and bigger! It’ll be 50 A320s and a handful of wide bodies by next week! Pilots are good at allowing rumours to gather momentum!

aviation_enthus

28th Mar 2018, 18:14

pilotchute

28th Mar 2018, 18:24

So where are the 200 hour guys they hired 3 years ago who should be ready for upgrade?

...still single

28th Mar 2018, 18:32

So where are the 200 hour guys they hired 3 years ago who should be ready for upgrade?

They're probably at SkyWest.

(The USA one, not the Aussie one.)

A Squared

28th Mar 2018, 19:27

The reason you need 2000 hours TT and 500 hours Multi to fly a S340 is because they expect to upgrade you ASAP. They don’t need more 200 hour cadets that take 3 years to upgrade, they’ve got plenty of those! Pass 2 sim checks and you’ll quickly find yourself in the LHS.

Q’link/Airnorth would be the same. They’re hiring future Captains, not f/o’s that need baby sitting for 3-4 years.

So are they offering "ready to upgrade to captain" pay, or are they offering "200 hour cadet" pay and hoping that some 2000 hour, ready to upgrade to captain pilots will accept the low pay until such time as they upgrade ... no promises on when that will be of course.

Also, what sort of pay and work rules will they be under once upgraded? Subsidiary question: what happened to the captains who were previously filling the vacancies they re trying to fill now? Why did they leave? for better pay? Better schedulable?

PW1830

29th Mar 2018, 00:47

The writing has been on the wall since the Pilots Dispute. The denigration of the profession and erosion of conditions by Dixon and successors has removed the role of Pilot as a desirable career option for many and airlines are seeing the results - this is not a reflection on the crew who have persisted and have had their career /lifestyle expectations continually lowered.

Lezzeno

29th Mar 2018, 01:22

Jetconnect rolled into Australia without a whimper from the union concerned.

No no no no no I won't have that, the union concerned is continuing the GRADE process ........... now they are all back from Luxembourg

ViPER_81

29th Mar 2018, 01:51

So where are the 200 hour guys they hired 3 years ago who should be ready for upgrade?

I would guess they never hired them and assumed they would always be able to get the 2000hr guys.

They expected someone else to hire the 200 hire guys and give them the experience.

LeadSled

29th Mar 2018, 04:34

Big difference because CASA don't recognise IFR flight plan time.----- logging instrument flight time during CAVOK weather on every trip.

Folks,
Last time I looked, that was not cheating at all, if you believe it is, please post the reference from the regulations that says it has to be IMC to log IFR time.
Likewise, it can be logged with the AP engaged, if you thing not, please post the contrary regulatory requirement.
Regulatory facts please, not superstition, supposition, and " - I was told/given to understand/my company allows!!
Tootle pip!!

PS:
Have you all seen today's Australian, the article about Qantas lobbying for two year visas for (what was) 457 visa pilots to be extended to a minimum of five year

A Squared

29th Mar 2018, 04:45

Folks,
Last time I looked, that was not cheating at all, if you believe it is, please post the reference from the regulations that says it has to be IMC to log IFR time.
Likewise, it can be logged with the AP engaged, if you thing not, please post the contrary regulatory requirement.
Regulatory facts please, not superstition, supposition, and " - I was told/given to understand/my company allows!!
Tootle pip!!

It is in the US .. cheating I mean. Different country, different rules, I know.

LeadSled

29th Mar 2018, 05:00

(FAA) Legal Interpretation #84-29

ASquared,
See the above for the FAA formal interpretation of the rules, re.14 CFR 61.51 - Pilot logbooks.
It is markedly different to Australia, but subject to wide legitimate interpretation. In my experience, it is not a thing FAA gets hung up about.
Tootle pip!!

ExtraShot

29th Mar 2018, 05:23

Have you all seen today's Australian, the article about Qantas lobbying for two year visas for (what was) 457 visa pilots to be extended to a minimum of five year

This is the current state of the 457 visa abuse program, erm, or whatever it’s called now, Qantas in this instance would be using it in the spirit that it was created for (or at least that’s what their narrative is), as its ‘just until the academy’s up and running and addressing the skills shortage’...

Like almost every other business in Australia, they’ll use (abuse) this program to merely avoid wage rises that would attract retain local staff.

The unions should be out there campaigning against ANY special extensions whatsoever.

downdata

29th Mar 2018, 05:50

Qantas pushes for visa extensions, more foreign pilots amid critical staff shortage

Qantas pushes for visa extensions, more foreign pilots amid critical staff shortage - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-03-29/qantas-calls-for-visa-extensions-critical-pilot-shortage/9600408)

Rated De

29th Mar 2018, 06:10

The unions should be out there campaigning against ANY special extensions whatsoever.

We mentioned this in another thread.

It is quietly suggested that Qantas are pursuing the same narrative for Network A320.

The union response is sub optimal to say the least. From connections at QF, the response is non-existent.

No no no no no I won't have that, the union concerned is continuing the GRADE process ........... now they are all back from Luxembourg

A Squared

29th Mar 2018, 06:42

ASquared,
See the above for the FAA formal interpretation of the rules, re.14 CFR 61.51 - Pilot logbooks.
It is markedly different to Australia, but subject to wide legitimate interpretation. In my experience, it is not a thing FAA gets hung up about.
Tootle pip!!

Yes, I'm quite familiar with that interpretation. Yes, there are times when it is legal to log instrument time when you're not actually inside a cloud. 84-29 names a couple of scenarios. My point was not that you must be inside clouds to log instrument time. Rather, that it is not legal in the US to log instrument time in good visual conditions ( CAVOK specifically was the term used) merely because you were on an IFR flight plan, you actually have to be in conditions which require flight by reference to instruments. That my be legal in Oz, I don't pretend to know. But for an absolute fact it is not legal to log instrument time on a clear sunny day in the US, merely because you're on an IFR flight plan. Neither the applicable regulation nor the 84-29 legal interpretation can be interpreted to allow that.

LeadSled

29th Mar 2018, 13:23

A Squared,
As I said, it is not a thing the FAA gets hung up about, unlike CASA, who treat log books as a happy hunting ground for insignificant errors of no safety significance, but criminal offenses all.
Tootle pip!!

mattyj

30th Mar 2018, 10:38

LeadSled

30th Mar 2018, 11:06

It’s your logbook..you can write anything in it you like. Stick pictures, use white out..whatever. Just write a note on the inside cover saying ‘I payed for this book and I reserve the right to decide how I fill it in myself’

mattyj,
If you are, in fact, a pilot at all, (as opposed to a troll) and licensed in Australia, and it is an Australian log book, I am afraid that the applicable regulations do not support your position, no matter how fervently you believe otherwise, and the penalties for not complying with said regulations are quite harsh.
Tootle pip!!

mattyj

30th Mar 2018, 19:07

It’s been over 10 years since I used my Aussie ATPL and I pray I don’t ever need it again..the Australian Regs are like Aussie Rules football: totally made up and no one else in the world is interested

A Squared

30th Mar 2018, 19:21

The US is probably a little less particular about how logbooks are kept than Oz, but, if you pitch up at an airline interview with a logbook that has a bunch of time entered that was logged contrary to to the regs, that interview probably won't go well for you. And yes, some airlines do audit logbooks.

On the FAA side, they don't go out and audit pilot logbooks as a routine matter, but if you are involved in an incident (doesn't have to be an accident) it is common to request your logbooks to audit. I have personal acquaintances who have experienced this. If said review reveals illegally logged time, the FAA can, and will revoke your certificates for falsification. Revocation is the prescribed penalty for falsification of records.

compressor stall

30th Mar 2018, 19:40

Typical of Oz, there’s a regulation and a fine of several thou if you haven’t filled in your last flight as soon as practicable. Or your sim session.

A Squared

30th Mar 2018, 19:59

Typical of Oz, there’s a regulation and a fine of several thou if you haven’t filled in your last flight as soon as practicable. Or your sim session.

The US is pretty different, You have no requirement to keep a logbook, as such. The only flight experience you are required to document is that time which is used to meet the qualifications for a certificate, or to show compliance with currency of experience regulations. And that doesn't have to be a logbook as such, just a "reliable record" However, that doesn't mean, as some seem to have assumed, that the FAA simply doesn't care what you put in your logbook. There are regulations, and while you're not terribly likely to get caught falsifying experience, if you do, the penalties are fairly severe.

compressor stall

30th Mar 2018, 20:25

A practical approach as (almost) always from the FAA.

LeadSled

31st Mar 2018, 00:12

A practical approach as (almost) always from the FAA.

Exactly!!

It happens, that somebody in the FAA gets the bit between their teeth about something, but as a proportion of "what happens" in US aviation it is pretty rare.

Can you imagine FAA "doing over" Oshkosh, or even considering it??

Here, the likelihood that you will wind up with a few thousand dollars in administrative fines, and penalty points, as result of a few log book errors, "discovered" during a ramp check, is too real.

Indeed, the CASA penchant for turning up mob handed and doing ramp checks at any advertised fly-in or airshow, or any time they find out there might be a bunch of aircraft all in the one place, has meant that many pilots will no longer fly to such gatherings.

At the last couple of Avalon airshows, Avalon East was a pretty lonely place.

Tootle pip!!

PS: I am told that the overtime and allowances system makes such "attendance" pretty lucrative for CASA pers*ns.

wishiwasupthere

31st Mar 2018, 00:21

as result of a few log book errors, "discovered" during a ramp check

Why would you be carrying your logbook with you when you're flying?

Chocks Away

1st Apr 2018, 02:56

Not only a shortage of crew but this also to contend with, which is very disconcerting. The Magenta Genration has colonised much of the Industry.
This excerpt is a classic and sums it up well:

“...I guess he didn’t have that passion for flying that leads some aviators to never fully trust automation but to use old fashioned methods to determine their own situation regardless of what the screen says (distance, altitude, wind, speed, airport elevation, weight, configuration changes and last but not least: looking outside!). The pilot could not abandon automation. He could not figure it out!"

Here is the article that raised & explores the topic (https://www.aerotime.aero/en/news/21037-opinion-automation-and-bureaucracy-are-killing-flying-skills?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=automation_and_bureaucracy_are_killing_flying_s kills_aerotime_weekend_special&utm_term=2018-03-31).

Happy Landings:ok:

Luggage

2nd Apr 2018, 18:38

One really has to question the so called shortage when I can personally confirm I know 4 pilots from Australia who applied for Jetstar back in Aus as FO's recently.

All 4 are flying jets with the lowest totaling 4500 hours with highest over 8000 and all 4 were rejected by the online assessment.

Forget the fact they fly in and out of the busiest airports in the US and the world, have degrees, over 10 - 20 years of work experience in the real world and multiple licences, multiple type ratings and multi turbine time.

Australian airlines will just reject people straight out based on a ridiculous psychometric online assessment.

Some shortage!!:ugh:

Jeps

2nd Apr 2018, 22:05

Maybe they don't want experience.....

Gnadenburg

2nd Apr 2018, 22:15

Yep, I wonder about HR and corporate and industrial compliance. You won't always get it from an industry veteran but a newbe indebted with an endorsement?

Which also has me wondering about a push to get young ladies into aviation who aren't naturally motivated toward the profession- are ladies more industrially compliant ?

Now before I'm lambasted as a sexist, I fly with young ladies in Asia, who I feel in the age of automation, have an advantage over their 20 yo male counterparts in decision making and soft-skills due earlier maturity.

wheels_down

2nd Apr 2018, 22:58

Jetstar usually employ from REX and small Prop jobs here and in Kiwi land.

They don’t usually take those with heavy time on type or any time at all.

gordonfvckingramsay

2nd Apr 2018, 23:01

Yep, I wonder about HR and corporate and industrial compliance. You won't get it from an industry veteran but a newbe indebted with an endorsement?

That's been the case for a while now. They hate people who are not quickly brought to their knees by either promises or threats; they want the hungry aspirational ones.

Berealgetreal

2nd Apr 2018, 23:20

Experience and education in aviation don't have the value they have in other industries. If they did cadetships wouldn't exist. Big jets overseas is often a oneway ticket. Your friends best chance would be to target a second tier operator for a DEC.

VARA, Alliance, Network, NJS and JetGo to name a few.

Better off becoming financially secure overseas and moving back for an early retirement.

The upside is that they saw the world, flew big jets for big airlines. Something to be proud of no doubt.

neville_nobody

3rd Apr 2018, 00:37

Is a DEC even possible at any of those airlines?

Stationair8

3rd Apr 2018, 00:41

Has your mate done two wet seasons in the NT, and at least 1,000 hours in a C210?

mmmbop

3rd Apr 2018, 04:12

Better off becoming financially secure overseas and moving back for an early retirement.

And into an early grave. No point having all that money when your health has been destroyed by the flying hours required to get that extra money.

morno

3rd Apr 2018, 04:25

Is a DEC even possible at any of those airlines?

Job ad the other week for DEC A320 Captain's for VARA

Berealgetreal

3rd Apr 2018, 04:46

DEC: I’ve seen it in some of the above. There are also freight DEC jobs. Another option: corporate. Check the AFAP jobs page. Have those guys applied for QF VA and TT? I doubt they failed the aptitude, reckon it was used to cull. Another option is NZ, Fiji and other island operators.

As for the early grave, sure understood. However there are some Asian outfits offering massive coin and if you went in with a plan you just might pull it off. Here in Aus with the tax system most will have to work to 60 and some 70 depending on which wife they are up to!

Luggage

3rd Apr 2018, 04:52

Jetstar usually employ from REX and small Prop jobs here and in Kiwi land.

They don’t usually take those with heavy time on type or any time at all.

Why is that? Seems rather stupid to ignore all that jet experience.

Lookleft

3rd Apr 2018, 05:10

Why is that? Seems rather stupid to ignore all that jet experience.

I went through the same experience but I was applying for a domestic position from within Australia. It has nothing to do with experience unless they need quick upgrades to the LHS

Berealgetreal

3rd Apr 2018, 07:18

Presumably because an experienced FO isn't seen as a plus by those that hire?

Hard to get your head around but its just a bum in a seat really. Capt is a bit different. For a DEC they want that experience.

Lookleft

3rd Apr 2018, 08:35

Spot on! An F/O can be a 250 hour cadet so experience doesn't count and is just a bum in a seat.

gulliBell

3rd Apr 2018, 12:28

..Here in Aus with the tax system most will have to work to 60 and some 70 depending on which wife they are up to!

There I go again, laughing as I snort my coffee on PPPrune...permanently single, retired at 45, pay tax no more.

Berealgetreal

3rd Apr 2018, 22:08

Clearly not everyone is as clever or humble as you.

Ollie Onion

3rd Apr 2018, 22:08

I once had the Head of HR at an OZ A320 operator say to me ‘why would we pay more just based on experience when we can train ANYONE off the street in 14 months to do the same job for a much lower wage’. Unfortuantly that is the attitude, we were trying to get a pay structure that increased with time in the company to encourage experienced pilots to stay.

OnceBitten

3rd Apr 2018, 22:24

Did you respond with

"we could take anyone off the street in one month to do the same job as you for a lower wage" :rolleyes:

Rated De

3rd Apr 2018, 22:36

Unfortuantly that is the attitude, we were trying to get a pay structure that increased with time in the company to encourage experienced pilots to stay. 3rd Apr 2018 23:08Completely understand. As with Nurses and professions where there is emotional investment, HR/IR believe this can used as leverage.

With unlimited supply of willing, emotionally and financially invested applicants is it any wonder that so many games get played?

Demographics are certainly changing the landscape for adversarial IR, however in the meantime we will continue to see a continuance of the current 'model' of employee relations.

Ollie Onion

3rd Apr 2018, 23:30

OnceBitten, something along those lines was indeed said. Sadly this is the attitude that pervades Airline Management, even he Chief Pilot (sitting on their side) said that experience is overrated as everyone including cadets completes their checks to the same standard. We said that ‘an interesting comment from a pilot who has done so well out of an industry that has paid him for his ‘experience’’. I truely believe this is the problem, to ‘attract’ the experienced pilots home to Australia and NZ you would have to put better contracts on the table, I don’t think that Airline Management see the value in doing that, they have a theory that they can set up their own academy to ensure a flow of cheap pilots who are of the same standard and as a stop gap if they can just get visa’s for pilots from other parts of the world where living standards are not great then the Aussie dream will attract them as opposed to better contracts.

Chocks Away

4th Apr 2018, 03:06

Trying to lure (cheaper) newcomers (https://www.aerotime.aero/en/news/21082-the-perks-of-smaller-airlines-for-kick-start-of-pilot-s-career?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=russia_claims_aeroflot_jet_searched_at_heathrow _wants_explanation_aerotime&utm_term=2018-04-03), just as mentioned in proceeding posts. Problem is the Management have their head in the sand in denial of Insurances increasing from the rise of "pilot error" accidents (alluded to in my previous page 45 post link)

Happy Landings.

Gligg

4th Apr 2018, 03:13

Experience is only overrated if you value economy over safety.

Chocks Away

4th Apr 2018, 03:33

To a point.
Experienced crew can give you both economy AND safety though... if you work with them/have them onside!
There are many ways an experienced pilot can save the company huge $$ in operations which "junior burgers" can only dream of... they may try but often fail or scare themselves and pax! Downwind landings prevalent in Indonesia a classic example.

LeadSled

4th Apr 2018, 06:14

Insurances increasing from the rise of "pilot error" accidents (alluded to in my previous page 45 post link)

Chocks away,
With great respect, that is prejudice speaking.
Accident rates are NOT going up, let alone so called "pilot error" accident rates. Further, there is no statistical record that shows that "inexperienced" pilots dominate what few accidents there are.
And, in any event, there is no general rise in insurance rates.
Tootle pip!!

Chocks Away

4th Apr 2018, 07:21

Sorry but we must agree to disagree.
You might call in prejudice but myself and many others call it realism... the information is out there!
Difference of opinion is expected on here and that's what the Forums are for.

There IS a rise in Pilot Error accidents (https://anziif.com/members-centre/articles/2014/12/the-increasing-challenges-of-aviation-insurance), though overall accident rates have dropped and it's a safer industry for now.

While there has been a significant reduction in
catastrophic loss events in recent decades, unsurprisingly
plane crashes remain the major cause of loss for the
aviation sector in terms of number of insurance claims
generated (23%) and their subsequent value (37%)..

"The report found that an estimated 70% of fatal accidents in commercial aviation operations are due to human error"

Here's abit more bed time reading (https://www.allianz.com/v_1417617209000/media/press/document/other/AGCS-Global-Aviation-Safety-Study-2014.pdf) for you... and here (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/comment-rising-number-of-inexperienced-pilots-may-lead-to-more-crashes)... and another one (http://www.dnaindia.com/mumbai/report-pilot-error-no-1-reason-behind-plane-crashes-50-year-data-shows-1387357).

Enough spoon feeding for tonight.

framer

4th Apr 2018, 08:23

Hmmmmm, why are these pesky pilots making so many errors? Tell them we’re going to make them do more online courses from their laptops..... and while you’re there, jiggle their rosters around a bit more will you, that should make them straighten up and fly right.

Berealgetreal

4th Apr 2018, 09:06

Certainly, we never hear about the millions of times a day the pilots intervene to stop one getting rolled up do we? Best they roll out pilotless jets asap!

Good idea framer.

cessnapete

4th Apr 2018, 11:16

Chocks Away

It would be nice to only employ "experienced" pilots, but where do you suggest they get their "experience"?
In Europe for example there is no great GA pool of experienced pilots or large ex Military to recruit from. Therefore for many years now many airlines have recruited a large proportion of their new hires from reputable flying schools.
In my UK airline many 250 plus hour cadet pilots have joined and flown with complete safety on 737/A320 etc. aircraft, after the correct route flying mentoring . We also do not go down the S/O Cruise Pilot scenario. All pilots are trained and released to line flying as fully qualified to operate on a two man flight deck.
Many are now Captains on 777/787/747/A380. after gaining more "experience"
They all had the required regulatory "experience" after training and released to the Line. We have no safety problem at all. Obviously further experience/skills are accrued with time.

Or perhaps you can give me the alternate statistics.

Chocks Away

4th Apr 2018, 13:09

I don't know 'pete. Modify the Licencing fiasco to allow a more global exchange of flight crew to where they're needed (as if that's going to happen).
Experience comes from exposure, yes, in well mentored environments as you mentioned, if not gained through GA exposure. That equation has been turned upside-down in many airlines though, particularly in "special" Australia (for the many reasons covered by Rated De & others here previously).
I know of plenty of experienced professionals knocking on the door of Australia but who are getting shunned by HR & misguided management theories, going for the "junior burgers" instead (heck, not even with cheese either :-) )
P.s. Will we see an increase in retirement age? Some airlines let you fly as long as you meet your Class 1 Medical, aka AirNZ.

Berealgetreal

4th Apr 2018, 19:38

To think you can have citizenship, passport, language and experience on the exact jet type but can’t work without completing 14 exams shows how backward it is.

Certainly air law, met and some cross cultural crm differences would be needed but other than that the job is identical.

Tankengine

4th Apr 2018, 23:27

Tankengine

4th Apr 2018, 23:29

I don't know 'pete. Modify the Licencing fiasco to allow a more global exchange of flight crew to where they're needed (as if that's going to happen).
Experience comes from exposure, yes, in well mentored environments as you mention. That equation has been turned upside-down in many airlines though, particularly in "special" Australia (for the many reasons covered by Rated De & others here previously).
I know of plenty of experienced professionals knocking on the door of Australia but who are getting shunned by HR & misguided management theories, going for the "junior burgers" instead (heck, not even with cheese either :-) )
P.s. Will we see an increase in retirement age? Some airlines let you fly as long as you meet your Class 1 Medical, aka AirNZ.
Australian Airlines same as NZ, no age limits domestically. International is 65 for everyone.

Berealgetreal

4th Apr 2018, 23:52

Yes Tankengine, for me it's the single most disappointing thing about this career. I guess as one poster points out, it protects their flying schools and allows them to pump out cadets no end. Very expensive over there and also very common.

LeadSled

6th Apr 2018, 05:46

Chocks away,
All your reading list does, and no surprise to me, is reinforce you own prejudices. A rather tenuous grasp on statistical analysis just helps you reinforce your own views.

As you have admitted, accident rates are going down, not up.

Strange as it may be to you, a reduction in (loosely) "other causes" resulting in an increase in the proportion of "human error" causes, and an absolute increase in "human error/pilot error" are not the same thing.

In the real world, and excluding niche risks, aviation hull insurance rates have not generally been going up, and any reason for volatility is usually fairly obvious.

And, by the way, I have been in the aviation business, including some interesting experience in GA insurance, for quite a while --- the sharp end of the business. I hardly need spoon feeding.

Finally, the revered Captain Dan Maurino, late of ICAO, would tell you that ALL/100% of aviation accidents are human factors accidents.

Tootle pip!!

PS: I am well acquainted with former Indian Minister of Civil Aviation, Praful Patel, as it turns out, I would suggest he is not a very good source for wisdom on air safety matters, let alone accident causes.

Chocks Away

6th Apr 2018, 06:05

Read what I actually said, NOT what you think I said... there is a big difference:

There IS a rise in Pilot Error accidents, though overall accident rates have dropped.

You miss the mark on your other points too, which contradict amoung other Industry Insurers, the one link which I did give, to Allianz Global Corporate's "Global Aviation Safety Study". Hull Insurance rates ARE going up... "in the real world" :-)

The Indian article? Yes point noted. It's just one example/article of hundreds.

As mentioned, we agreee to disagree.

It's Friday, Happy Landings

(PS The "spoon feeding" wasn't just for you it was for the many hundreds following this topic.)

LeadSled

6th Apr 2018, 06:22

Chocks away,
I hope you have better references that the ones in your previous post??
And, by the way, popular media love "pilot error", but for professional purposes it is a bit passe.
Tootle pip!!

compressor stall

6th Apr 2018, 10:15

I did see a presentation from a very large airline in a country where visual approaches are quite routine.

Their incidence of unstable & stuffed up approaches was quite clearly seasonal. Many more in the summer than the winter. And guess when they do more visual approaches...

That's the type of safety statistic that has to be overcome to let pilots "fly" more often. Sadly I think the automation dependency has a long way to go (read more accidents) before there is a mandated manual flight policy.

LeadSled

6th Apr 2018, 15:52

Compressor Stall,
And I could show you a quite large airline that does a high proportion of visual approaches, where the incidences of unstable approaches (based on 100% monitoring of all by QAR analysis) is very rare, and does not vary between visual and IF approaches.
There is NO necessary relationship between visual approaches and the incidence of unstable approaches.

Chocks Away,
It is not a matter of agreeing to disagree, it is a matter of getting your facts straight. And, I supposed you noticed, most of your quoted articles are quite dated, although you still get it wrong based on those.
Tootle pip!!

compressor stall

6th Apr 2018, 21:42

There is NO necessary relationship between visual approaches and the incidence of unstable approaches.

It may not be necessary, and I don’t disagree with that, but facts are facts. The FOQA data presented from the airline concerned was unambiguous and presented in a large international forum with over one hundred airlines present.

You can have all the opinions on your old airline that you like, but when facts like this are permeated through the industry it makes the argument of letting pilots handfly and do visual approaches that much harder.

IMHO until there are some more hull losses from complete incompetence/magenta lining the airlines’ desire to avoid unstable approaches (or level busts like the recent A320 vis app into YMML) will sadly rule and manual flight will be actively discouraged.

AerocatS2A

7th Apr 2018, 01:45

visual approach doesn’t necessarily mean manual flight. The vast majority of my approaches are visual but they are largely on autopilot until about 1000’.

LeadSled

7th Apr 2018, 05:52

The FOQA data presented from the airline concerned was unambiguous and presented in a large international forum with over one hundred airlines present.

Compressor Stall,
But it was still the result for one airline.

I know all too well the discouragement of both visual approaches and hand flying, and particularly hand flying, in a number of airlines, particularly European and Asian based. In one well known, accepting a visual approach clearance is almost a crime.

The net result is that the fundamental flying competence of individuals and the group is diminished, and the current "philosophy" of "more of the same" will gradually further diminish a fundamental competency.

To quote a good friend, who is a current IRE/TRE trainer: " We have created a huge problem, a huge rod for our own back, whether we can recover, time will tell".

At least the Airbus A350 standard rating syllabus suggests "light at the end of the tunnel". We shall see.

Tootle pip!!

Killer Loop

7th Apr 2018, 06:32

This is all very interesting but couldn’t we have a seperate discussion for the pros and cons of visual approaches etc and keep this one true to the current thread title?

compressor stall

7th Apr 2018, 06:53

Leadsled,

In case you hadn't realised and I have to spell it out, you do not need to preach to me. I work, train, and firmly believe in, a culture that expects a standard of real flying and maintaining raw flying skills in the more automated of the two main manufacturers. It can be done.

The point I make here is that there is still inertia in the industry against practising real skills on the line, and the evidence being presented will only make the cultural change we seek so much harder.

Killer Loop, totally agree... back to normal programming :)

Strainer

23rd Apr 2018, 11:14

Does Australia/Oceania have a pilot jobs board similar to the one in the link below?

https://www.climbto350.com/climbto350_aviation_jobs_board.cfm

The AFAP has their website of course, but I haven't seen anything in Oz like the above.

sheppey

24th Apr 2018, 01:50

Years ago I recall one experienced Airbus captain flying in Asia saying of cadets foisted upon him as hanging on to his coat tails with the result he was flying single pilot IFR much of the time. There was a rumour that some cadets were dyeing their hair a shade of grey so passengers would think all pilots up front were experienced

EY_Airbus

24th Apr 2018, 13:00

Has your mate done two wet seasons in the NT, and at least 1,000 hours in a C210?
What's your point?

LeadSled

25th Apr 2018, 08:04

with the result he was flying single pilot IFR much of the time.
Funny you should say that, old mate of mine said it was worse than single pilot IFR. In single pilot IFR you don't have somebody in the RHS trying to kill you!!
But I do think he was overstating the case a bit.
Tootle pip!!

Stationair8

26th Apr 2018, 00:02

What's your point?

Just being cynical on the Australian aviation scene.

badt18

26th Apr 2018, 20:41

Is there still currently a shortage in Australia?

josephfeatherweight

27th Apr 2018, 08:40

Nah, you just missed it - that was last week.

Sarcasm off - I've never known of so many jobs going in the aviation sector - good times!

Chocks Away

2nd May 2018, 06:06

Too true Joseph!
Pity the (mis)managements aren't shouldering the blame, then improving T's & C's to attract the HOME GROWN numbers required, that are here right now or overseas looking in!

With muppets like this at the RAAA lobbying the Govt and making comments like this... they still try to dance around the core issue.:ugh:
‘In order to attract suitably senior pilots, who more than likely have a family growing up and so forth, we need to make it attractive enough for them to come across and uproot their family,’ said RAAA chief executive, Mike Higgins.

The Singaporeans @ RrrrrrrrrrExxxxxyyyy (http://www.rex.com.au/Jobs/JobDetail.aspx?jid=10) have been quick to jump on the "457 Visa" disgrace already.

SBS - "Foreign Pilots to plug Australian shortfall" (https://www.sbs.com.au/news/foreign-pilots-to-plug-australian-shortage)

"Stop the Lie..." - Dick Smith / AOPA (https://aopa.com.au/dick-smith-wagga-wagga-presentation-success/)

Icarus2001

2nd May 2018, 06:19

Even if they attract a few 457 visa applicants there is still an issue world wide, the global pilot population WILL relocate but to the BEST T & Cs. Which is what is sending Australian pilots offshore.

They must dream that somewhere there is a vast pool of type rated and current pilots waiting to board a flight to Australia. That is not the case.

Rated De

2nd May 2018, 06:40

They must dream that somewhere there is a vast pool of type rated and current pilots waiting to board a flight to Australia. That is not the case.

This is precisely the problem, they have until most recently been fortunate to have effectively unlimited supply. Not a thought was spared for the day the well ran dry. Airlines coincidentally reaped substantial cost reduction on input prices by outsourcing, Globalisaiton effectively removed barriers to this process and airlines benefited handsomely, by-passing any protections afforded employees in their home markets and sought labour at lower unit cost elsewhere.

Unfortunately some airlines are a bit slow to realise that globalised supply chain works both ways and indeed labour has the ability to relocate.
There is a market clearing price which airlines in Australia will be loathe to match, whilst this occurs a shortage will persist.

Icarus2001

2nd May 2018, 07:18

https://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/article/01/05/2018/Emirates-reducing-fleet-size-due-to-severe-pilot-shortage-and-low-demand

https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/04/30/emirates-is-storing-over-45-planes-in-the-next-few-months/ (https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/04/30/emirates-is-storing-over-45-planes-in-the-next-few-months/)

neville_nobody

2nd May 2018, 09:12

Well the EK problem is solved by opening LHR, SYD, JFK bases. However they will never do that so I guess they're going to have a crewing problem along with everybody else.

A Squared

2nd May 2018, 09:31

Well the EK problem is solved by opening LHR, SYD, JFK bases. However they will never do that so I guess they're going to have a crewing problem along with everybody else.

People keep mentioning this, as if it would be a normal and expected thing for Emirates to do. Are there other airlines which maintain crew bases outside their home country? I can't think of any other than Atlas and their now closed Stansted base. Aside from Europe, where things are in a grey zone somewhere in between "We are separate, sovereign countries" and "We're all one big happy country now" and aside from carriers who have contract crews provided by third party agencies, having a crew base outside your country seems a fairly rare situation.

Icarus2001

2nd May 2018, 09:45

Are there other airlines which maintain crew bases outside their home country?

Cathay Pacific, Ryanair, CityJet...

Jeps

2nd May 2018, 09:50

It certainly wouldn’t be normal if EK opened up foreign bases. But even if they wanted/needed is it feasible? I don’t know enough about the inner workings of EK to know. What is clearly around the corner though is China offering reverse rosters/bases or some new way of offering lucrative deals to aussies whilst allowing them to still live at home.

A Squared

2nd May 2018, 09:57

Cathay Pacific, Ryanair, CityJet...

Well, as I said, Ryanair and CityJet are in the EU, whcih is sort of a special case as they've managed to blur the distinction of "country" pretty extensively. Are all Cathay flight crew employees of Cathay? I haven't paid a lot of attention, but as I recall when i had some acquaintances who were interviewing "with Cathay" they were actually interviewing with some US company. I was never completely clear of the exact relationship but was under the impression that the crews were actually contract crews ... much as my buddy who used to be a whale FE "for JAL" was actually employed by some company other than Japan Airlines.

bafanguy

2nd May 2018, 10:40

I was never completely clear of the exact relationship but was under the impression that the crews were actually contract crews ... much as my buddy who used to be a whale FE "for JAL" was actually employed by some company other than Japan Airlines.

IASCO ?
https://www.iasco.com/
I seem to remember they had a long relationship with JAL ? Or did in the past.

neville_nobody

2nd May 2018, 10:44

Given the number of multinational companies that domicile people all over the world it isn't really that big of a deal. For the Middle Eastern Carriers its about providing income to its local economy hence why no remote bases. However if this really is a pilot shortage I don't know why they just start opening at least a European base. It has to be better than grounding aircraft.

A Squared

2nd May 2018, 10:49

Well, I'd say that one reason is that it would place them them under the jurisdiction of EU labor laws, and in courts where the judges don't serve at the pleasure of the company's owners. I'm guessing that's a powerful disincentive.

Captain Dart

2nd May 2018, 11:01

Cathay Pacific has had bases for over twenty years. However, after a time the company found that the rest of the world was not one big 'Hong Kong' with loose labour laws and a cosy relationship with the government and the regulator. The company soon found that complying with First World labor laws and their unchanged archaic rostering system rendered bases, to them, too hard in the end, despite all the money they saved on housing, children's education and medical. For the last decade bases have 'withered on the vine' as based crew leave, and these crew are not being replaced. A couple of bases have been closed. However, bases will never be completely eliminated, as they need some sort of carrot to lure impressionable young pilots to subsist in Hong Kong for years hanging on in quiet desperation. Even the Communist Chinese are offering good salaries, bases and commuting rosters. But not Cathay Pacific.

Furthermore, SOs joining under the latest conditions are so cheap, there is no longer any point in the airline opening up base slots. Years ago, direct entry FOs were employed directly into bases, where 'basing companies' had to be set up to comply with local labor laws. That may have been the origin of the 'external company' rumour. But if the rumour mill is correct, a recent attempt to sucker direct entry FOs to join on a Hong Kong base was not an overwhelming success.

Having said all that, CX is losing pilots at quite a rapid rate due to their poor employment conditions in one of the world's most expensive cities, but bizarrely, 'management' is still going out of its way to piss off their most important and responsible employees. Why, I don't know. CX has and is about to lose pilots to QANTAS and many other airlines, numbers reputedly in the three figures this year. They are being replaced by more 'shiny jetters' being lured to Hong Kong willing to accept the crap conditions, and of course, as many local pilots as they can recruit and train (even that is becoming a problem for them). But toxic relations with management, a difficult and expensive city to live in, its airspace becoming a shambles, limited training capacity and a relatively young captain demographic is driving quite a churn in the junior ranks. On ULH flights, CX now uses double SO crews, so CX SOs work for even more years on a concocted 'P2X' rating which counts for nothing outside while their mates amass log-able experience and progress up the seniority list at their home airlines. So, interesting times ahead for this outfit if they don't do something. And I am not optimistic that they will.

stormfury

23rd May 2018, 12:23

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2018-05-23/airasia-x-net-income-10-5-million-video

It would appear the fuel price is more of a concern to Air Asia than their ability to crew aircraft. I find it a little odd that oil price was mentioned on several occasions during the interview but nothing on pilot numbers or recruitment - Bloomberg has had pretty consistent coverage on the global ‘pilot shortage’ for the last year.

Given the current recruiting of DEC and DESFO, pilot shortages may not be the crocodile closest to the canoe for AA but it’s probably one of the biggest, and getting closer.

KL is a great/fun/affordable place (hopefully more so under the new Gov) but AA can’t compete globally with their current T&C’s; tic toc!

PoppaJo

23rd May 2018, 13:46

They have a large in house cadet scheme that’s why. Don’t even get me started on the quality of it.

Jeps

23rd May 2018, 22:42

They have a large in house cadet scheme that’s why. Don’t even get me started on the quality of it.

However bad I think it is it’s probbly worse. I’ll put that in don’t want to know basket.....

Seagull201

25th May 2018, 07:10

aussiebushflyer

27th May 2018, 00:52

I noticed on today's afap website, a major flying school in Sydney has advertised for gde 1/2/3 instructors, also for instructors from NZ to come across.

It seems they're advertising for a decent number of staff.

The instructors that have left, where are they going to?
Qlink? US? Rex? Turbine jobs?

During the last few weeks, Rex advertised for instructors for their Wagga training facility, also Melbourne and Tamworth academy's continue to advertise.

It appears the shortage of qualified pilots in general aviation is continuing to accelerate.

In regards to the major flying school in Sydney (Also Brisbane) you refer to I know personally 3 instructors who have left this month, 2 to Qlink and 1 to a US regional. They have said that at least 14 have left in last 60 days. I just went back to the school I did my CPL at 12 months ago and of the approx 10 instructors back then only 4 remain 2 senior lifetime instructors 1 who was very new and the other is on the Qlink hold file.

Street garbage

27th May 2018, 10:10

https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/captains-call-airlines-say-they-can-t-get-enough-pilots-20180525-p4zhdz.html

Capn Bloggs

27th May 2018, 10:24

Raping and Pillaging. I thought that was a no-no these days? :}

neville_nobody

27th May 2018, 11:37

Lookleft

27th May 2018, 12:54

REX need to take a good hard look at themselves before they start blaming the major carriers. I have flown with plenty of former REX Captains who left because REX was sending them all over the country and calling it a temporary transfer so they didn't pay DTA. A lot of those people were happy to work for REX but wanted the lifestyle stability.

shortshortz

27th May 2018, 20:46

Agree. I've heard now from a number of ex long term Rex captains that we're happy to see their career out at Rex, now leave for the majors because the Rex lifestyle went out the window so they thought they may as well move to an airline and at least make money while being away from home.
The mian reason pilots leave the regionals is because the lifestyle is no longer there and the money should be higher. Fix these two and there won't be a "shortage" problem.

pilotchute

27th May 2018, 20:59

When Qantas drop the mins to 200 hours and a MECIR I will beleive there is a shortage.

GA Driver

28th May 2018, 02:43

REX really need to lose the whole airlines are 'poaching' our pilots rhetoric it's just a ridiculous statement on so many levels.
And now they want to be paid by airlines for people leaving?? What planet are these guys on??

Yep agreed.
If you had an accounting or law degree, left a company to go to another (as lawyers and accountants do!) do they pay the previous company for poaching you??? What a joke REX

mikewil

28th May 2018, 03:25

When Qantas drop the mins to 200 hours and a MECIR I will beleive there is a shortage.

Even REX with their 750 hour minimum. If they lowered theirs to 200 hours (like all their cadets graduate with), then maybe they would get an extra year or two of service out of each pilot they hire. With 750 hours, you would be ready to move on pretty soon after you started with them.

Rated De

28th May 2018, 22:35

Folks,

A key labour unit cost reduction metric was to effectively outsource that component related to 'flight training'. It is a cornerstone of the Low Fare Airline employment model. Whether a fully self funded candidate or one whom you indenture with a 'cadet ship' the accounting was neat: Very little actual investment by the company.

The necessary component to ensure such through put was unlimited supply of applicants. Faced with a structural shortage, labour unit cost is beginning the slow march to mean reversion. Airlines need pilots, pilots generate operating revenue. Unfortunately airlines will try everything in order to protect their supply, until eventually increasing the requisite terms and conditions necessary to ensure supply.

Slippery_Pete

29th May 2018, 00:57

“Raping and pillaging”? They want big airlines to compensate them for stealing heir crew?

Fine. Backpay all the GA operators you’ve “raped and pillaged” pilots from over the last 10 years - then you’d be in a position to expect the same from the big boys.

I bet you weren’t compensating GAM all these years they provided you with piles of twin drivers.

These muppets will never realise that if you want to only provide regional pay, you need to provide regional lifestyle. They’ll just keep blaming everyone else.

krismiler

29th May 2018, 02:45

For the last few decades employers have squeezed the orange and now the pips are squeaking. $100 000 outlay to get started followed by poor pay and conditions put a lot of suitable people off entering the industry at all. Companies took full advantage of previous pilot surpluses and can’t complain now that the boot is on the other foot.

From the small GA operator who could easily fill his requirements from walk in applicants and never had to advertise, right up to the second tier who had the entire food chain below them willing to finance their own A320/B737 rating, its being felt. What wasn’t considered was that most of the applicants on file were also on file elsewhere and hardly anyone bothered to update that they got another job and weren’t interested anymore. The hold files thinned considerably once they were followed up. I can’t ever remember seeing so many jobs on the AFAP website, many from employers who never normally had to do more than make a few phone calls if they needed crew.

The suction effect from the top is getting stronger and being felt by everyone, from the 800hr C206 pilot in the Northern Territory whose employer is trying to get the insurance minimums reduced so he fly a twin, to the junior Jetstar Captain who can double his pay and go straight onto an A330 in China

A flying job in Australia is an attractive way of making a living as long as the pay and conditions are right. A nice lifestyle, good climate and infrastructure, safety and the rule of law count for a great deal and would be enough to keep many people at home instead of chasing the $$$ in Asia or the Middle East.

QANTAS still provide a good career and lifestyle a won’t be short as long as they plan correctly and possibly widen the net a bit.

Gnadenburg

29th May 2018, 03:26

to the junior Jetstar Captain who can double his pay and go straight onto an A330 in China

A nice lifestyle, good climate and infrastructure, safety and the rule of law count for a great deal and would be enough to keep many people at home instead of chasing the $$$ in Asia or the Middle East.

At the moment, Australian wine is roasting on Chinese docks due a go-slow customs procedure squarely aimed at Australia's position on the rise of China. Rather Orwellian from the Chinese but the shot across the bow has been fired. There's no higher profile expat group than pilots. Not unimaginable to be potentially targeted in any geopolitical or economic escalations. Which makes the second part quoted ring true.

Jeps

29th May 2018, 03:43

Just a cockamamie theory but I've observed quite a few guys on here stating they know people with a great deal of experience and others referring to their own significant experience and being rejected multiple times by airlines and therefore are skeptical of a shortage currently. Could a factor in this be that airline recruitment folk are looking at the 10,000+ hour people and looking at their age (40+??) and for whatever reason being deterred by one or both of these factors? Not too hard to think up reasons why in their infinite wisdom they are rejecting these applicants. You hear a story about being rejected by Qlink for not having sufficient IFR time but you have everything else in spades and then on the flipside I have friends that had the absolute minimums and no IFR time and were a walkup start. You just cant pick it.

JPJP

29th May 2018, 04:29

krismiler

29th May 2018, 04:41

Taking a few older applicants spreads the retirements out and avoids a block on upgrades as no one is leaving, followed by a large number of departures at the same time, putting a strain on training capacity as a high number of promotions will happen close together, which then also requires a new first officer to be brought in as a replacement.

A large number of junior captains and new first officers also gives rostering difficulties as they can’t be paired together. Overall experience heads south and insurance premiums may rise.

When Virgin Blue first started, they put second hand engines on some of their aircraft to avoid having serviceability disruptions and a sudden major expense which would happen if they all came due for overhaul at about the same time.

An older applicant brings experience into the company, is more likely to stay long term and spreads the age demographic out . This may compensate for the reduced return of service, difficulty in teaching an old dog new tricks and greater sick days.

shortshortz

29th May 2018, 08:02

That article is hilarious. They all either blamed each other, or said that there’s no problem. Apart from Dick Smith; who blamed regulators. Ironic.

Nobody said a word about the fact that Australian pilots are being paid far less than their equivalent counterpart. A Qantas A380 Captain is making the same amount of money as a Delta 737 Captain. The Australian aviation industry needs to learn that the days of bending pilots over a barrel are over.

FUPM.

ha?
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN13Q50C

Sounded good, but Delta's hourly rate sits marginally over virgin and below qantas.

A significant jump of 30% over this year

fx82c

29th May 2018, 08:56

I’ve been considering a move back downunder next year and AirNZ are recruiting straight into their jet fleets (mostly A320 it seems). My mate has just been given a seniority number on the jets but kept back on the Q300 because they can’t afford to lose him. He’s mentioned rumours of them joining the turboprop seniority list onto the bottom of the jet one, which would push me way down the list - and turbo flying aint for me! Anyone know what level of ‘fake news’ this is?

JPJP

29th May 2018, 21:46

ha?
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN13Q50C

Sounded good, but Delta's hourly rate sits marginally over virgin and below qantas.

A significant jump of 30% over this year

Not trying to give you a hard time, but - no :) Don’t know about your background, so please forgive me if you already understand how this works.

- Hourly rate $273 * 1100 hours = $300,300.00

- Profit Sharing is 15% of Gross = $45,000.00

Total Gross (without including company retirement contribution) = $ 345,345.00
Total Compensation (with company paid retirement contribution) = $ 400,600.00

In Oz dollars that’s:

$460,137.00, and

$533,759.00

notes
- doesn’t include per diem (allowances)
- The retirement contribution included number isn’t really relevant. Until retirement.
- The total gross is the number you’d see in W2 (group certificate).
- Used 1100 credit hours. It’s about average including training. Some more, some less.
- All numbers are current CBA (EBA).
- Used current 12 year 737 payrate. Since a Qantas A380 CA would have been there considerably longer.

The Qantas A380 numbers were posted by Keg or Isdon earlier.

Rated De

29th May 2018, 22:09

Not trying to give you a hard time, but - no :) Don’t know about your background, so please forgive me if you already understand how this works.

- Hourly rate $273 * 1100 hours = $300,300.00

- Profit Sharing is 15% of Gross = $45,000.00

Total Gross (without including company retirement contribution) = $ 345,345.00
Total Compensation (with company paid retirement contribution) = $ 400,600.00

In Oz dollars that’s:

$460,137.00, and

$533,759.00

notes
- doesn’t include per diem (allowances)
- The retirement contribution included number isn’t really relevant. Until retirement.
- The total gross is the number you’d see in W2 (group certificate).
- Used 1100 credit hours. It’s about average including training. Some more, some less.
- All numbers are current CBA (EBA).
- Used current 12 year 737 payrate. Since a Qantas A380 CA would have been there considerably longer.

The Qantas A380 numbers were posted by Keg or Isdon earlier.

A very succinct post.
It is not the hourly rate, that is the bait.
The landed cost in seat of crew is what matters (an all in cost)

Australian airlines pay under market.

This is precisely why any gang when things start going wrong blame each other: Dick Smith (irony) blaming regulation, GA blaming the regional airlines, major airlines blaming foreigners. This is part of the mean reversion we have spoken of elsewhere.

They will do everything until necessity dictates they do the right thing

Unions ought be expediting the mean reversion. Australian pilots at major airlines have lost a lot of ground on a like for like comparison.

Lookleft

29th May 2018, 23:29

JPJP

29th May 2018, 23:57

When comparing US pay rates and Oz pay rates you should also include the career costs. How many times has the Delta pilot been furloughed and taken an income hit? The QF pilot who has spent the last 20-30 years in stable employment will still be better off than his/her US equivalent.

You’ve managed to completely miss the point - Instead of comparing the numbers, and applying them to the future and the Qantas short haul EBA, you’ve decided that a dik measuring contest is important. The numbers are above. People can figure out ‘who's better off’. How about Southwest - About the same pay, never furloughed and have showed a profit every year for nearly half a century. Would that have convinced you ?

Delta furloughed 15 years ago. Welcome to this decade. In 10 years half ( ~ 6000) of all Delta pilots will retire. They’ve hired the equivalent of the entire Qantas group in the last 3 years. When did Qantas last hire ? Never had your pay frozen with rising inflation, or been stuck in the wrong seat for a decade or two ? Thought so.

Rising tide should lift all boats. That’s the point you missed.

Street garbage

30th May 2018, 00:24

I second what JPJP said. Apparently, American Airlines has approx 14500 pilots, over which 10000 will retire in the next decade.

romeocharlie

30th May 2018, 00:28

DUXNUTZ

30th May 2018, 00:33

Ansett? Compass mark 1 and 2? Qantas circa 2010 for LWOP? Half the GA companies in the top end? Most Delta pilot's wouldn't have spent the better part of a decade in GA flying 210's/Titan's around either to get a job at a legacy - yes EJ's etc for similar money, but it's never been for as long. Job stability in Aus hasn't exactly been fantastic either champ.

They flew commuter turboprops and piston twins for similar ****e $$$. Lots of lost decade (2001-2010) folks at US legacies who did hard yards. I fly with lots of them and am one to some degree.

Popgun

30th May 2018, 02:30

... the junior Jetstar Captain who can double his pay and go straight onto an A330 in China...

But unfortunately he ISN'T. The number of guys (and gals) bailing out to the 'utopian big bucks' in China is minimal and statistically insignificant.

Overwhelmingly, most JQ left seat guys (and gals) value the safety and security of living and working at home with industrial laws and representation, transparent seniority lists and connections to family, friends and culture without being exposed to the many career threats that accompany working for the Chinese et al. All while earning a not great, yet certainly liveable wage.

Its a shame really, especially at EBA negotiation time, when you hear the management quite correctly crowing, "Why should we pay you any extra? Nobody's leaving!".

Pilot shortage? Not for major jet carriers in Oz.

PG

Lookleft

30th May 2018, 06:32

Rising tide should lift all boats. That’s the point you missed.

Very easy to miss a point that hasn't been made. You were just comparing current wages I was comparing career cycle costs. Have a read of Sully's book and I think you will get some idea of what has happened in the US during the past 20 years. Oz pilots will get a good retirement out of their super whereas US pilots pensions have been tied to the fortunes of the airlines. Its only been recently that the US has been hiring so all those Delta pilots furloughed 15 years ago have only just got their jobs back in this decade.

Never had your pay frozen with rising inflation, or been stuck in the wrong seat for a decade or two ? Thought so.

Much like your other assumptions-completely wrong.

Rising tide should lift all boats.

What a stupid saying. Everyone knows that the tidal changes in Broome are lot bigger and more dramatic to those in Mallacoota.

gulliBell

30th May 2018, 07:02

Wow. An Australian company advertising for Australian pilots.

Chocks Away

30th May 2018, 07:11

Let me correct your last comment Popgun:
Pilot shortage... for all carriers in Oz.... IF there wasn't one as you mentioned, then:
- Why have all the jet operators lowered their entry requirements to never before seen levels? This was expected although delayed some many months after other airlines outside "Kansas" noted the issues and acted. Denial that there actually was a problem, has wasted many months;
- Why is there all of a sudden a huge need to scramble together Cadet Flying Schools, of which they are struggling to source enough suitable Instructors for, as they've left for greener pastures/more coin;
- Why are so many aircraft parked on the ground throughout Australia and secondary tier "support" airlines are flat out log jammed, trying to find & train enough crew to fill in these "outsourced" routes:
- Why are there never before seen Adverts seeking pilots on AFAP; SEEK; FlightGlobal Jobs etc, many of them entry level employments.
I won't go on.
Just open your eyes around the airports of Australia and look at how much expensive hardware is sitting idle!
I'm sick of hearing excuses and buck-passing or stupid claims of compensation of the likes REX made last week.
The industry is sick. CASA is sick. Many airline managements are sick (in Aust & abroad)... and they are definitely NOT the ones to fix the problem!
Why aren't they? They have not foreseen the issues earlier and made plans accordingly. Australia is fortunate to have alot of lead time to "read the play ahead", as it were but they haven't. Instead, massive multi million dollar bonuses and fat share bonus increases have been the order of the day. Much like RATED DE has been banging on about for ages, the days of confrontational industrial negotiation with unlimited labour supply have gone. There's a massive shortfall of pilots entering the industry, in favour of more lucrative professions.

It's a beautiful aphorism JPJP mentions above, which I should comment on.:D
"Rising tide should lift all boats." - Sadly it's not in Australia, it's only lifting the super yachts :} The dingies (GA/Instructing/Regional Airlines/AG) are having trouble staying afloat!

Happy Landings :ok:

Rated De

30th May 2018, 07:20

Delta furloughed 15 years ago. Welcome to this decade. In 10 years half ( ~ 6000) of all Delta pilots will retire. They’ve hired the equivalent of the entire Qantas group in the last 3 years. When did Qantas last hire ? Never had your pay frozen with rising inflation, or been stuck in the wrong seat for a decade or two ? Thought so.

Rising tide should lift all boats. That’s the point you missed.

Very easy to miss a point that hasn't been made. You were just comparing current wages I was comparing career cycle costs. Have a read of Sully's book and I think you will get some idea of what has happened in the US during the past 20 years. Oz pilots will get a good retirement out of their super whereas US pilots pensions have been tied to the fortunes of the airlines. Its only been recently that the US has been hiring so all those Delta pilots furloughed 15 years ago have only just got their jobs back in this decade.

Yes generationally Captain Sullenberger's snapshot is accurate, the key insight is his career was in fact hindered by a combination of generous pilot supply and corporate malfeasance, where over and over (due Chapter 11) labour loses out.

It is just as relevant to recognise the trajectory of the last decades is changing. Airline management (HR/IR) succeeded driving unit cost (terms and conditions) so low that the industry lacks sufficient supply. It is changing in all western economies facing an increasing retirement burden (pensions, healthcare) a declining birth rate and due lack of income growth stagnation of real wages. These two forces, insufficient remuneration and demographic pressures will eventually shift the supply curve to meet the demand: conditions will improve.

Airline management are not used to this change, they are set up to drive conditions in one direction only.

The rising tide is lifting all boats, it will not be linearly, but it will lift as is evidenced by airlines positioning the chess pieces.
Consider the quiet approval of skilled shortage visas ( 4 years for how long?) as the first volley.

It is disappointing the union leadership in Australia refuses to assist the industry move the supply curve for the betterment of all pilots.

Left 270

30th May 2018, 07:39

Careflight are going to be on triple J this evening, talking about not being able to get aeromedical crew for the NT, that’s a good paying GA gig. That previously posted article spoke of QF lodging for 295 work visas, I’ve been told that Q Group will be hiring 5-600 for the year, that’s half..

Left 270

30th May 2018, 07:59

Looks like I got the day wrong, must be later in the week.

havoste

30th May 2018, 13:40

Wow. An Australian company advertising for Australian pilots.

I believe that is the American regional with the same name. Australian companies aren't that desperate yet!

JPJP

30th May 2018, 22:32

Very easy to miss a point that hasn't been made. You were just comparing current wages I was comparing career cycle costs. Have a read of Sully's book and I think you will get some idea of what has happened in the US during the past 20 years. Oz pilots will get a good retirement out of their super whereas US pilots pensions have been tied to the fortunes of the airlines. Its only been recently that the US has been hiring so all those Delta pilots furloughed 15 years ago have only just got their jobs back in this decade.

Much like your other assumptions-completely wrong.

What a stupid saying. Everyone knows that the tidal changes in Broome are lot bigger and more dramatic to those in Mallacoota.

Soooo .... you learned all about the U.S. airline industry in the last 20 years from reading Sully’s book ? That should wrap it up for you then eh ? I’ve been in it for the last 20 years, and you’ve missed the point. Just because you can’t understand it, doesn’t mean it’s not there. You either don’t understand the word ‘decade’, or you need to hit your book again. Delta has been hiring for over a decade. And they were all back (obviously) before that.

There’s so many inaccuracies in your post that it would take me an hour. I don’t think you have anything to learn - So I’ll stop wrestling with the proverbial pig.

Lookleft

31st May 2018, 00:49

Well if you have been in the States for the past 20 years it would follow that you know sweet FA about the Australian situation. A decade ago was the GFC. I doubt that more pilots were recruited in that time in the US than were furloughed. Its only recently that the majors have been recruiting as heavily as they have. I stand by my assertion that the cost to pilots over their career has been worst in the US during your time there than my 20 years + in the Australian environment.

stormfury

1st Jun 2018, 01:49

ANNABEL HEPWORTH
The Australian 12:00AM June 1, 2018

A high-powered advisory group to the Turnbull government is advancing plans to ensure there are enough pilots and aviation engineers “to keep Australians flying”.

The Australian can reveal Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack has been given a plan that outlines three priorities for the troubled general aviation sector, which has been complaining of crippling costs and red tape.

The plan was produced by the government’s General Aviation Advisory Group, chaired by Royal Flying Doctor Service chief executive Martin Laverty, and outlines a work plan for the group.

Mr Laverty said the plan “addresses critical issues of regulatory burden and ensuring sufficient workforce to keep Australians flying”.

Amid a pilot shortage that is a global phenomenon, the document identifies “workforce development” for the general aviation industry as a priority.

It also says a priority should be ensuring air safety regulation supports the general aviation sector through “clear, consistently applied and proportionally responsive administration”.

The other priority is for a long-term “strategic perspective” for general aviation, which provides links to areas not serviced by airlines but has been shrinking since 2010.

Writing in The Australian today, Mr Laverty says even the RFDS has struggled with the issue of pilot and engineer shortages.

“A solution is best advanced from within industry itself by encouraging young people into the profession,” Mr Laverty writes.

“Expanded industry training capacity will fulfil national needs and create export opportunities.”

Mr McCormack, who is also Infrastructure and Transport Minister, said he welcomed the “General Aviation Flight Plan” and had asked the Department of Infrastructure, Regional Development and Cities and the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to work with the group in responding to the three priorities.

Mr McCormack also said the advisory group would be continued a further two years to allow work outlined in the plan to be finished. Overseas airlines have poached major airline pilots and while Australia’s airlines had sourced pilots from general aviation, the sector has been shrinking. The situation has prompted the government to allow foreign pilots into Australia on two-year work visas to keep regional air routes operating, while Qantas’s regional arm, QantasLink, wants the government to extend the time foreign pilots can stay.

The group’s high-level strategy document says there are pressures on the sector, “such as an ageing workforce and commercial airline competition for personnel”.

The group will work with an existing panel, led by Australian Aviation Associations Forum chair and former Airservices boss Greg Russell, that is reviewing aviation skills and training.

The review is expected to be completed in the middle of the year.

The panel is aiming to make recommendations on supporting the training and retention of aviators and backing Australia as an exporter of aviation training and skills.

The “flight plan” document also says CASA should be given “guiding principles” for future administration of regulation as it applies to general aviation and suggestions to ensure rules are applied consistently.

shortshortz

1st Jun 2018, 02:31

:ugh:Captains at regional airlines and the likes of the rfds should be able to enjoy a lifestyle and be remunerated accordingly. Simple fix, put the pay up and hire enough pilots to provide the lifestyle.
Prior to 2010 the gap between regional and majors wasn't so large, nor was the gap between cost of living and income. Raise the pay - pilots will be attracted to these jobs and won't leave. It doesn't need a review

neville_nobody

1st Jun 2018, 03:24

Overseas airlines have poached major airline pilots and while Australia’s airlines had sourced pilots from general aviation, the sector has been shrinking.

Here we go yet again:rolleyes: I'm starting to wonder if all these so-call free-market capitalist politicians and business owners are actually closet members of the communist party.

Very simply people are going to foreign airlines because they are getting paid 2-3 times as much as they are in Australia. The very same reasons that the same people bragged about how cheap pilot labour was in the past is now working in reverse. Noone is being poached. It is how the system works.

And it is very possible that the current economics of aviation in this country is actually broken and that people are not paying enough to travel.

Slippery_Pete

1st Jun 2018, 04:19

https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gifCaptains at regional airlines and the likes of the rfds should be able to enjoy a lifestyle and be remunerated accordingly. Simple fix, put the pay up and hire enough pilots to provide the lifestyle.

That is one of two solutions. Increase the pay to reflect the lost regional lifestyle (home every night, limited time on standby, shorter days, good interline staff travel) ....

OR

keep the pay as it is and return the regional lifestyle.

megan

1st Jun 2018, 05:06

Every one seems to hate Darwin because of its isolation and wet season weather but ignore the pluses, twelve minute commute at the very worse in peak hour, very good community and activities available. Careflight absolutely top notch employer, you won't get any better in GA - no I don't work for them.

Job vacancies: Why more emergency pilots and nurses are needed in the NT - Hack - triple j (http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/programs/hack/careflight-struggling-with-pilot-shortage/9801756)

Icarus2001

1st Jun 2018, 06:39

I believe that is the American regional with the same name. Australian companies...

Hahaha the same name as who? Skywest in Australia is l o n g gone, Aviation and Airlines.

I take no joy in that either, it seems Australia always reverts back to two airlines, albeit with two low cost subsidiaries.

Chris2303

1st Jun 2018, 08:13

Rated De

1st Jun 2018, 08:16

Airline management have levered outsourced labour, greenfield company and subsidiaries as far as the law permitted. The pursuit of lower labour unit cost a preoccupation. The result is terms and conditions heading in one direction for over 30 years.

Unfortunately HR/IR modelling contained a fundamental flaw: The entire thing was predicated on the assumption that there would be a never ending supply of self funded, committed individuals signing up.It will not be the 'effort' of organised labour levering the upwards pressure, it is demographics. Stir in a large financial barrier to industry entry (cost of training) and a small available 'talent' pool and it becomes the stuff of nightmares for airline HR who are, after all, very used to getting their way.

Globalisation had very real detrimental impact on real income and standard of living for the middle classes in all western economies. Senior management (s) love the flexibility, offshoring jobs, departments and industries. Those workers left competing against 'skilled shortage' guest workers..Conditions only went one way

Unfortunately for airlines at least, globalisation is a two way street.

Rated De

1st Jun 2018, 08:22

"A high-powered advisory group to the Turnbull government is advancing plans to ensure there are enough pilots and aviation engineers “to keep Australians flying”."

One wonders if they have a Plan B in case nobody wants to take up the offer?

They will do everything, and then the law of demand and supply ultimately ensures they do the right thing.

blow.n.gasket

1st Jun 2018, 08:56

Sui Generis?

mattyj

1st Jun 2018, 11:12

Probably organising some sort of war so the RAAF has to ramp up pilot and engineer training. Governments are good at that stuff..not much else

krismiler

1st Jun 2018, 15:12

Back in the late 1990s a mate of mine was a pilot for the RFDS QLD section. I remember him telling me that he earned less than the flight nurse, and this was in a job which was regarded as one of the best going in GA.

Many suitable people looked at the investment involved and lack of reward at the end, unless you were in the tiny percentage that got into QF/AN and took their talents into a different area. The hard yards required at the time were another deterrent as not everyone was prepared to go bush to start filling up their logbooks.

Employers who previously wouldn't have even looked at you without an endorsement and time on type have had a huge reality check. We are effectively missing a whole generation of pilots who should be working in the middle of the industry between the entry level job and airline jet. Previously they would be the airline recruitment pool whilst providing valuable experience for employers who needed more than a bare CPL. The training they could provide based on real world experiences rather than simply following a text book was priceless to new pilots entering the industry

The tree has been shaken to death by now and no more pilots are falling out.

Piltdown Man

1st Jun 2018, 15:31

If a shortage arrives, squeeze the nasty HR types so hard you can see their balls dangling from the bottom of their trousers (and the female equivalent). You make the conditions to tough ticket prices have to increase - permanently.

Best of luck.

PM

framer

1st Jun 2018, 21:38

Toruk Macto

1st Jun 2018, 23:24

If there is not enough pilots and airlines have to pay more to entice kids to become pilots that’s market forces not pilot greed .

framer

1st Jun 2018, 23:31

Correct....

knobbycobby

1st Jun 2018, 23:54

Ha ha I’m with Piltdown on this.
If the industry can get through this without ticket prices going up a dollar here and there then market forces haven’t really acted.They have been circumvented somehow ( 457 visas and IR tactics, negotiations not taking advantage of the market etc) , I doubt that will happen, we’ll probably see a ‘pilot levy’ on tickets lol. Management would love it, they’d be able to have scores of conversations both in private and in the media about greedy pilots forcing the good people of Australia to pay more for their travel.

So the Qantas CEO makes 30 million dollars and is the highest paid CEO in the Country. It’s been in the news.
David Andrew gets over 8 million. Yet we are making up total BS with pilot levies on tickets? Any other self imposed scare tactics?
Just about every news article reports a pilot shortage with credible facts and figures including large salaries in China. Well in excess of what an A380/330/747/737 pilot in QF earns. The problem is getting worse. Not even seen the start of the retirement wave yet.
You even have Alan Joyce and the QF Chief Pilot admitting to a shortage issues in news articles. Every day another article on pilot Shortages with the data on pay and statistics and numbers.
Others provide accurate figures of US airline pay which should also mention the cheaper cost of living and lower taxes in the USA.
In any other profession you’d be seeing significant wage rises OR if not pay rises, improvements such as rostering or earnings stability in SH.
Sadly poor representation and a majority of weak minded and punch drunk members will ensure that pilots lose in both in good times and bad. Pilots are very good at flying aeroplanes and that’s it.
It doesn’t really matter if there is a massive Shortage or a small one or none at all.
The Qantas EA negotiators backed by IR and exec are vastly smarter, more strategic and know the multitude of weak spots. Wish it were otherwise.Look at the latest Comfort letter fiasco. After trading off a multitude of conditions to get 787s, AIPA got double bluffed again. What’s the trade off for the next tranche of replacement aircraft?
Perplexed as to how some here(apart from the obvious QF management/IR trolls) could lead a race to the bottom at such a time. In any environment terms and conditions continue to get worse or at best stall. Perhaps the grossly high executive pay is in fact warranted? Perhaps they are worried about an executive bonus levy on tickets? I suspect not.
Best of luck in EA negotiations. The last win the pilots had was not thanks to AIPA or it’s pilots but Fair Work.

ExtraShot

2nd Jun 2018, 00:37

So the Qantas CEO makes 30 million dollars and is the highest paid CEO in the Country. It’s been in the news.
David Andrew gets over 8 million. Yet we are making up total BS with pilot levies on tickets? Any other self imposed scare tactics?
Just about every news article reports a pilot shortage with credible facts and figures including large salaries in China. Well in excess of what an A380/330/747/737 pilot in QF earns. The problem is getting worse. Not even seen the start of the retirement wave yet.
You even have Alan Joyce and the QF Chief Pilot admitting to a shortage issues in news articles. Every day another article on pilot Shortages with the data on pay and statistics and numbers.
Others provide accurate figures of US airline pay which should also mention the cheaper cost of living and lower taxes in the USA.
In any other profession you’d be seeing significant wage rises OR if not pay rises, improvements such as rostering or earnings stability in SH.
Sadly poor representation and a majority of weak minded and punch drunk members will ensure that pilots lose in both in good times and bad. Pilots are very good at flying aeroplanes and that’s it.
It doesn’t really matter if there is a massive Shortage or a small one or none at all.
The Qantas EA negotiators backed by IR and exec are vastly smarter, more strategic and know the multitude of weak spots. Wish it were otherwise.Look at the latest Comfort letter fiasco. After trading off a multitude of conditions to get 787s, AIPA got double bluffed again. What’s the trade off for the next tranche of replacement aircraft?
Perplexed as to how some here(apart from the obvious QF management/IR trolls) could lead a race to the bottom at such a time. In any environment terms and conditions continue to get worse or at best stall. Perhaps the grossly high executive pay is in fact warranted? Perhaps they are worried about an executive bonus levy on tickets? I suspect not.
Best of luck in EA negotiations. The last win the pilots had was not thanks to AIPA or it’s pilots but Fair Work.
:D:D:D :ok::ok::ok: