Pilot shortage

[Airbus A320321]

At the end of the day, most pilots are motivated to find a job which gives them best lifestyle and for Australians, that usually means living in Oz. Airline management know this and hence we will never see the big money offered overseas. Of course China and the Middle East need to pay big money and lower entry requirements to attract candidates as these places are sh@t holes compared to Australia.

[Rated De]

Airline management know this and hence we will never see the big money offered overseas. Historically that paradigm held.
What sources indicate are very good commuting contracts will become more prevalent. Remove the necessity to re-locate a family to another country that one finds sub standard and the perceived advantage of living in Australia vanishes.

This shortage is not a function of the business cycle. It is driven by;



Demographics
Declining Qualified supply

Increasing demand for air travel-Airlines were a big benefactor from globalisation, which now ironically is a two way street!
Adversarial employee relations models and all that grubby practice entails

The airlines which first work out that this is sustained and securing supply means changing their employment relationship model will hold the strategic supply.

It is entirely plausible that Australian airline management struggle to attract supply. Indeed it is already evident in many of the regional feeder airline groups, where despite unions claiming a lobbying presence in Canberra, 457 visas appeared without warning.

[A Squared]

Ha ha ha. Airlines loathe paying market rates (except when there is surplus) yet alone add 50%

Unless they're unable to fill seats, they *are* paying market wages. "Market wages" aren't: "what I think I should be paid." Market wages are the wages for which pilots are willing to do the job.

[clear to land]

There is also the curse/gift depending on perspective of Seniority and the protected workshop it creates. It serves primarily in benefit of the employer by creating a captive workforce-until the supply reduces. Only then does it work against the employer. Most experienced expat pilots that I know would be far more likely to consider a wage reduction to take a left seat rather than a right hand one-not because of the ego but purely because of the associated pay cheque. I could afford a pay cut to a Captains pay but not that of First Officer. Give me the same $$ and I don't care which seat I sit in.

[Capn Bloggs]

Most experienced expat pilots that I know would be far more likely to consider a wage reduction to take a left seat rather than a right hand
And most pilots in the seniority system would prefer not to be jumped-over by those who have found the grass isn't greener on the other side of the ocean...

[morno]

Blogg's, I don't think that's the best way to look at it.

I left Australia because I couldn't stand not having the opportunity to go see the world, work in different environments, experience different aspects of aviation, and make some better money than what's on offer in Australia. I'm in my 30's, so there's still a lot of aviating left to do for me. Doing Sydney-Gold Coast-Sydney a million times for the next 30 years is mind numbing.

However, at some point, I'm going to want to come home. I accepted that it would be difficult when the time came, I didn't leave without considering this.

So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.

The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.

Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?

morno

[Capn Bloggs]

Morno, with all due respect, that is one way of looking at it. For every one of you guys who want to explore the world, there is another who wants a decent job but wants to stay here for all sorts of reasons. They should not be penalised by staying in a seniority system. Then there is the "impartiality" that seniority forces on a company.

As for:
Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?
If the C and T department is doing it's job, the internal captains will have enough experience and performance to do the job.

Looking forward to soaking up your experience and performance from your Seat 0F one day! :)

[t_cas]

[/QUOTE]
So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.

The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.

[/QUOTE]

You just answered your own question.

Relevant experience may be all that really counts. 2 million times is a lot of anything. Seasons for one.

[A Squared]

Blogg's, I don't think that's the best way to look at it.

Well, it's kind of the only way to look at it. I'm not a big fan of the seniority system for a variety of reasons. However, if I were at an airline which used the seniority system and they suddenly started hiring pilots into the left seat ahead of my, I'd not be happy either.

[Slezy9]

To paraphrase using Churchills Democracy quote...

Indeed, it has been said that seniority is the worst form of airline promotion, except all those other forms that have been tried.

[framer]

So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.
I don’t think it’s because Joe flew a route more than you. I think you will be discriminated against because you are late to the company party. That’s the way it is. Joe on the other hand had the option of going to lots of cool parties in cool locations just like you but decided not to because he knew that when he came back, he’d be unlikely to get a spot close to the pool but within reach of the barbecue.

[Brakerider]

Gee wouldn’t that be the dream. Head overseas, fly a widebody, make some serious coin, then return home, cut the queue and retire as a domestic 737 Captain. :rolleyes:

[morno]

Not my problem if you didn’t do it.

Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DEC’s. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.

[Keg]

With an east coast narrow body command in QF going close to 20 years I suspect we are a very long time away from that situation morno. West coast narrow body commands currently sit about 16 years.

Of course if you want a 737 F/O slot in PER you can have that on day 2 of joining.

That all could change too if we rapidly increase the size of the 787 fleet without retiring aircraft but it’s still not going to see the situation you describe. More likely to struggle to get people to take F/O slots but that’s more related to pay and conditions than individual pilot skill level.

[goodonyamate]

Not my problem if you didn’t do it.

Personally I think in the future Australia will have no choice but to hire DEC’s. The pool is drying up and could even get to the point where they get to seniority numbers that are just not ready to be upgraded, due to lack of experience or similar.

I can’t speak for other airlines, but whilst that may solve the shortage you think exists for command upgrades, it will just create another shortage in the RHS. Good luck finding an FO in mainline who would sit next to anyone who joined as a DEC.

[bafanguy]

Good luck finding an FO in mainline who would sit next to anyone who joined as a DEC.

I would suggest the empirical evidence indicates there's no problem finding people who'll do exactly that without reservation or limitation.

The whole world has proven...repeatedly...on every continent...in every culture...people will do whatever they have to do to remain in the game. So, if FOs have to fly with DECs even when it's not in the long term, best individual self interest of said FOs , they will.

This ENTIRE website is replete with evidence supporting the assertion.

Is that right or proper ? That's another subject and so hypothetical/theoretical as to be not worth discussing in light of empirical evidence.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

So in 10-15 years when I want to return, I already think it's unfair that because I chose to expand my horizons and gain different experience, that I should be discriminated against just because Joe Smith has flown the Sydney-Gold Coast route 2 million times.

The seniority system locks out experience and doesn't acknowledge what someone with extensive experience could bring to an airline.

Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?

Morno, there are a good many people who joined an Australian airline in their early 30s, having already racked up thousand of hours in all sorts of aviation. Those pilots are now in their 50s, and still unable to get an East coast command. If you think you should be given any sort of preference over them on the basis of either experience or performance, then I’d suggest you’re being a bit presumptuous.

[hoss]

Agree.

Something about a snowflake in hell............!

[Lapon]

Why don't they have a system which promotes on performance and experience, rather than just who's been there the longest?

Seniority does. You still need to make the standard (performance) and have the requirements (experience).

Have you ever raised your eyebrows at some of the appointments made to 'merit based' pilot positions such as C&T etc? Notice how merit based sometimes seems to coincide with attributes such as 'mates of the CP', and 'yes men' etc.

What would provide the transparent measure of performance and experience (relevant)?

Seniority is a curse for those inside and outside of it, but it beats the non-existant alternative when it comes to fairness and transparency.

[Gnadenburg]

Seniority is a separate debate from what I'm really reading between the lines here.

You have a few pilots here, who want an easier pathway to undercut Australian based pilots to secure their own repatriation. It reeks of the me, me, me syndrome that is a far more momentous issue for pilots than seniority.

There is no shortage of pilots who would do a QF pilots job for less. So how is seniority and unionism not an advantage? How is seniority the enemy of the pilot?

I've sat in a legacy airline and waited my turn with seniority. I didn't have to worry about the self-promoters who would ramble on about their previous civilian or military command experience and how performance should be the basis of their own early promotion. The funny thing being, when I moved abroad to an airline with a rapid command promotion with a 50% failure rate, many of the self-promoters fell short.

There is no sound alternative to seniority and it is amusing to see those abroad suggesting otherwise !

And sorry Morno, really, you left to broaden your experience? Who have you flown for? Airline flying abroad is often very restrictive and having been a domestic Australian pilot a long time ago, generally speaking, I'd rate that experience higher. You went abroad to either make money or to secure a career path not achieavable at home.

[The Green Goblin]

Morno,

Sorry bud. You made the decision to increase your bank balance and satisfy your SJS.

The rest of us that stayed home worked out that flying pays for our lifestyle outside of work. Camping, fishing, boating, etc etc.

Whilst doing shark patrol to cooly ain’t exactly what many had in mind when they started this career, that’s exactly what commercial flying is. A - B x 1000 safely.

There will always be a 146 or a Fokker waiting for you with a quick left seat when you get back.

If you ever think it’s unfair, perhaps you shouldn’t have left? Also what relevance does long haul ops on a bigbird to foreign regions have compared with short hops up and down the coast with quick turns and a domestic career?

[Oakape]

Seniority is fine until you are in your 50’s & your airline collapses. Then it sucks. Particularly as you watch the remaining carrier take up the extra flying & those fortunate enough to be in that airline move ahead at your expense. Very hard to go back to the right seat or back seat from a financial perspective when you are that age.

[Bend alot]

Oakape, that's similar to a Hong Kong operator that is putting pressure on some of the seniors.


Not very many sideways steps, but that downward one is a dooozy!

[clear to land]

My reference to interested pilot's returning to Australia wasn't to QF -or VA mainline- If they have enough upgradeable candidates then of course they should be offered an opportunity to upgrade before DEC. Given such small fleets and glacial growth/attrition that is the only way to do it.
What I was referring to when mentioning pay was Regional Operations in the LHS rather than the RHS. For an experienced expat it 'may' be an acceptable pay cut to the LHS but definitely not the RHS. I stand by my assertion that Seniority can be a double edged sword but generally favours the employer.

[Kraus]

A little left field, but current Qantas pilots on furlough working abroad will be progressively returning to Qantas and Australia. As part of their career progress, they have achieved promotion to the LHS and gained invaluable experience. Qantas will benefit from their experience, so the demarcation of inside or outside of Australia are blurred in reality. There likely won't be any demand for DEC because Qantas already has very experienced crews.

[Metro man]

Once an expat, always an expat, unless you are young and find that being in your early 20s with jet time gives you a leg up in the selection process if you want to come home after a couple of years overseas.

Get used to the expat package, stick around for the upgrade and the years have rolled by. When the next wave of recruitment starts you may be on your 30s, and suddenly 15 years in the right seat doesn't seem so appealing, with a pay cut and very possibly a family to support.

Towards the end of your career, if you are sick of long haul and living in Asia or the Middle East, are financially secure and just want to get home then DEC may be possible with a smaller operator who would welcome your experience and know that you would stick around instead of leaving as soon as the big boys open the doors. Mine transfers or night freight in older jets could be fun with a Queensland base and the children having left home.

[mikk_13]

Once an expat, always an expat, unless you are young and find that being in your early 20s with jet time gives you a leg up in the selection process if you want to come home after a couple of years overseas.

Get used to the expat package, stick around for the upgrade and the years have rolled by. When the next wave of recruitment starts you may be on your 30s, and suddenly 15 years in the right seat doesn't seem so appealing, with a pay cut and very possibly a family to support.

Towards the end of your career, if you are sick of long haul and living in Asia or the Middle East, are financially secure and just want to get home then DEC may be possible with a smaller operator who would welcome your experience and know that you would stick around instead of leaving as soon as the big boys open the doors. Mine transfers or night freight in older jets could be fun with a Queensland base and the children having left home.

That sounds miserable.

Aviation really is a rubbish career

[neville_nobody]

Aviation really is a rubbish career

It didn't use to be, but it is now.

[Berealgetreal]

The smartest guys joined QF/JQ group and went on LWOP. I know a guy that did this soon after joining, he went and lived the ‘big jet LHS’ dream all over the world. He’s now paid a squillion as a wide body skipper and lives in Aus and is mid 30s. When his east coast command comes up he will do that and go part time. Some played a really smart game some didn’t. I’m envious of how well he did. Good on him though.

LWOP facility and likelihood wasn’t in my thinking when choosing my employer, it should have been. At least I didn’t join CX or EK. Now that’s a **** sandwich that just keeps on giving!

It’s interesting how the QF group have managed the LWOP scenario. Nearly like a ready reserve. A lot of guys I know have left employers over the years as they’ve wanted to chase the overseas stuff but wouldn’t have quit if they could have done a LWOP scenario. Most of them would come back but can’t as they’ve lost their spot.

[ElZilcho]

Every Pilot in AUS/NZ knows how seniority driven the Airlines here are. Especially the Legacy Carriers.

Some chose to chase the money and progression abroad, some slogged it out in GA/Regional's waiting to get on the Seniority list ASAP. Others (like myself), took a halfway approach and kept a current C.V. in back home and raced back the moment a job was offered, turning down a Command in the process.

We've each made our beds in Aviation, and we need to accept that.

In all reality, DEC's likely will get offered in AUS at some point in time, they just wont be at QF.

Talking to those who have (or are currently) doing the Expat gig, there's really 2 "Windows" to come back home to a Legacy Carrier. When you're young enough (Early 30's) to still have a decent Career back home, or when you're old enough (50+) that you've gotten the LHS out of your system, the Mortgage paid off and the Kids moved out. I've met a few late in life S/O's who really don't care what they earn now, it's all about the Lifestyle.

Unfortunately, a lot of guys try to move home in their mid 40's because the Wife/Kids are sick of China or the Desert, but that's about the worst time to move.

[blumoon]

Heard on the grapevine the Cobham EBA vote got an overwhealming NO vote.... there seems to be another disturbance in the force for the divide and conquer method of employing pilots. Interesting times

[KRUSTY 34]

That sounds miserable.

Aviation really is a rubbish career

And that’s the rub. The numbers do eb and flow a bit, but over the last 2 decades or more the participation rate in the profession has decreased by a factor of 10!

Not necessarily a single reason for it, but in a world where air travel is now common place for the average punter, it simply doesn’t hold the “magic” for the same number of young people. Add to this the consistent downward pressure on T&C’s, it really has been the ultimate own goal by the shortsighted Numptys running airline HR/IR departments. :ok:

[The Range]

Yes, there is a shortage of cheap pilots to fly expensive airplanes!

[Dale Hardale]

With Network expanding in WA with larger aircraft, is there any chance this will affect QF group allocation of 737s and pilots in the west?

The days of joining QF into the RHS of a 737 in Perth might be numbered.

[Beer Baron]

Supposedly not Dale.
The loss of the mining work is apparently being offset by an increase in East-west 737 services and additional international flying out of Perth.

Whether that ends up being the case is anyone’s guess.

[dr dre]

And because those A320's will be used mostly as replacements for the F100's, a lot of which are rapidly approaching the end of their useful lives.

[Blitzkrieger]

Heard on the grapevine the Cobham EBA vote got an overwhealming NO vote.... there seems to be another disturbance in the force for the divide and conquer method of employing pilots. Interesting times


And what a debacle it appears to have been too. A rather emphatic NO despite there being an overwhelming feeling amongst some that this was a good deal that would be endorsed by the pilots without much resistance.


How on earth could there have been such a huge disconnect between what was agreed in principle and what the pilots were prepared to accept? Where there is smoke there is fire I would suggest :=.


The independents are going to get rather busy in the coming weeks me thinks.

[Gnadenburg]

That sounds miserable.

Aviation really is a rubbish career

You sound as though you are suffering depression?

I'm unsure of metroman's lot, but the only rubbish consistent is pilots. You work hard and make it somewhere and there is tragic ease of which people will do your job for less and without thought.

When at AN, desperados came home and were VB training captains for less than what we were paid as F/O's at AN. Now I imagine VB training capts are still paid significantly less than QF training captains? So while these clowns paid for their ratings and bellowed the unsustainability of domestic wages, this must be egg of the face now considering the long careers of QF pilots.

And now, Aussie pilots flock to Asia for the big money jobs and get paid a whopping 10k AUD less a month than my current contract. Then after a short time, they realise they don't have the lifestyle you do, and they run home and live in Sunbury or Mascot claiming the Aussie lifestyle.

In my observation, the only consistent solution to all this is rigid standards. If you can be replaced by a dodo with ease, you will be. Nothing else seems to work. The dumbing down of standards slews the supply and demand back toward the employer who universally, seem to have an obliging regulator.

[Metro man]

Unfortunately, a lot of guys try to move home in their mid 40's because the Wife/Kids are sick of China or the Desert, but that's about the worst time to move.

Absolutely correct. At that stage you are unlikely to be financially secure, and still have high outgoings. The choice is often between a substantial pay increase as you upgrade to wide body Captain in your present job, or a substantial pay cut as you downgrade to narrow body first officer if you return. Add in moving and set up costs, together with possibly having to purchase property and the picture is quite bleak.

For mid to late 50s thing look much better. Someone of that age today, likely enjoyed the golden era of pay and conditions and spent enough time abroad to have accumulated substantial wealth. Children have probably left home and parents health issues are a draw factor. Driving down from the coast, doing a quick mine transfer or freight run and being home that night would appeal to many instead of ultra long haul, multiple time zone/minimum rest torture. As long as you’re not paying alimony to a first wife and trying to support a new family, the pay cut is quite manageable considering the lifestyle trade off.

Opportunities to do this occur when the top airlines recruit and suddenly operators such as Allance and Cobham find themselves short of Captains and senior F/Os.

Personally, I’ll retire in a low cost location such as Malaysia, Thailand or the Philippines for about 10 years and come back when I’m about 75.

[Rated De]

Over the next two decades, 87 new pilots will need to be trained and ready to fly a commercial airliner every day in order to meet our insatiable demand to travel by air.

That's one every 15 minutes.


Australian exceptionalism aside, airline IR refreshed from a few week's rest will be flat out on the next installment of their FEAR, UNCERTAINTY and DOUBT campaign.

Odds on it takes the form (in no particular order of preference);



Automated aircraft by 2025?
Subsidiary to get jets?
New visas for pilots?
A grounding and lockout?

Quietly despairing as the surround the water cooler and discuss the next potion to defer the inevitable paradigm shift coming to an airline new you: Terms and conditions and indeed their whole model of 'employee relations' is on the chopping block.

[Popgun]

Australian exceptionalism aside, airline IR refreshed from a few week's rest will be flat out on the next installment of their FEAR, UNCERTAINTY and DOUBT campaign

Quietly despairing as they surround the water cooler and discuss the next potion to defer the inevitable paradigm shift coming to an airline new you: Terms and conditions and indeed their whole model of 'employee relations' is on the chopping block.

I have recently heard murmurings to this effect coming from people connected to JQ negotiating committees. It is all such a predictable and boring adversarial playbook.

Rumours that the unborn FRMS to be dumped and CAO 48 exemption to be continued indefinitely. Further rostering 'efficiencies' are planned as well apparently so this pilot group can remain 'competitive' and confidently 'secure' their futures.

It will be interesting to see how resolved and united this pilot group will be during the negotiations for their next EBA which expires in a little over 12 months. Cohesion will always be difficult when the membership is split across 3 unions in addition to there being significant non-union numbers.

Fear, uncertainty and doubt. Coming to a management propaganda campaign near you!

:ugh:

PG

[DHC8 Driver]

Personally, I’ll retire in a low cost location such as Malaysia, Thailand or the Philippines for about 10 years and come back when I’m about 75.[/QUOTE]

It works for me!

[gordonfvckingramsay]

All those threats are being floated about as we speak. We are as stupid as the IR experts think if we fall for it now though.

This is to my knowledge, the only profession that is not recognized as a true profession, where you hold the lives of hundreds of people on your hands yet garner no actual authority over an MBA, where a businessman can BS to a minister thus having the entire IR world chandged to suit a financial outcome.

Grow a fvcking backbone guys and girls. You will not be sacked for simply asking for a fair market rate for your services.

Lobby the hell out of your union, and don’t burst into tears whenever your HR people hint at your demise. Plenty of us stand our ground and are still here.

[Rated De]

Plenty of us stand our ground and are still here. To be a door mat it is first necessary to lay down :E


Completely agree, but unions and management are two sides of the same coin. Sadly it has been the case in Australia since that year that pilots lay down.
I have seen tough talk my whole career, but those talking the loudest, fold first. Ask the Cathay guys.

Pilots negotiating for pilots is a big error that one union in particular is fond of repeating. Ever wonder why the other side always win?

I remember being asked by a pilot union representative what I would give up to secure an improvement? I thought I could convince him that maybe there is no need to give up anything. I argued enterprise 'bargaining' had been one way for a generation and perhaps that he was too old to see what had changed.

I suspect that the next round of enterprise 'bargains' will be led by pilot representatives turning up with their customary knife to a gun fight....again!

[framer]

What begins the change is persistent and dignified personal resistance.
That’s my favourite prune sentence of 2018.

[Gnadenburg]

Pilots negotiating for pilots is a big error that one union in particular is fond of repeating. Ever wonder why the other side always win?

Duplicity, delinquency and unbelievably, pilot apathy.

It got so slewed in HKG, that in recent negotiations it was mentioned that the union was a solid path to training and management for pilots. Disgraceful that it is so accepted and not called for what it is. I've seen guys scorned by managers, never to be trainers, all of a sudden after being in executive union positions, end up fast tracked through the system.

The most unlikely of candidates and it's fine by me, as long as it is called so by their peers.

[Icarus2001]

More to the point I think he is making is that the company will have professional and experienced HR IR people. Sending pilots to negotiate with them is foolish. We need the same expertise on our side that they use.

[pilotchute]

I worked in road transport for a while and I can tell you when things are up for negotiations the union doesnt send in truck drivers!

As a previous poster said if your serious you send in IR negotiating professionals. Anything less is foolish.

[sealear]

I don't fly in oz anymore but damn right it is a rubbish industry now. It doesn't matter where you go or what you fly, it all sucks.

The smart ones won't bother trying to make a career out of it anymore, quickly get themselves into a position that allows them to do something they really enjoy.

[bazza stub]

There will be plenty of job opportunities coming up at the ATSB, they’ll be getting plenty of work in the near future I reckon. This place is toxic and unsafe.

[Gnadenburg]

More to the point I think he is making is that the company will have professional and experienced HR IR people. Sending pilots to negotiate with them is foolish. We need the same expertise on our side that they use.


I know exactly what he means. I was just illuminating a dark shade in pilot unionism that is so difficult for many to accept they bury their heads in the sand.

You don't just swap hats going from pilot union negotiator to management pilot.

[Blitzkrieger]

The company loves it because the pilot reps fly a full roster and spend their spare time doing union rep work. One such company even has the unions convinced that there is a requirement to have pilot reps doing the negotiating. It is little wonder then that bad outcomes occur.

[swh]

The only way to fix a pilot shortage is with taller pilots.

[Keg]

The only way to fix a pilot shortage is with taller pilots.

Now we’re just getting personal! :\ :ok: :}

[Tankengine]

The only way to fix a pilot shortage is with taller pilots.

Added advantage is no reading glasses for a year or two longer. :)
(Arms are longer. ;) )

[Rated De]

You don't just swap hats going from pilot union negotiator to management pilot. As Gordon Gekko said,' if you ain't inside, you are outside'

Yanis Varoufakis provided the clarity not afforded by Gekko when he stated, and I paraphrase:

'When invited in, you leave your coat and values at the door. Insiders never tell tales and they don't speak to outsiders'

I agree Gnadenberg,

I was just illuminating a dark shade in pilot unionism that is so difficult for many to accept they bury their heads in the sand.The same darkness was what I was alluding to

[Akahmi]

If 457 visas are being used to patch the hole temporarily for a pilot shortage then when is anyone (I.e government and private companies) going to do something about the shortage? Or are we forever going to see a highly globalised competition within Aus forever seeing as no one will take initiative for solving this.

Also I'm not sure if you guys have heard of "Australian wings academy" but they allow a HECs VET fee debt scheme to pay for your training for all licences required and you pay it back when you have a job above a certain salary per year. They also offer accommodation for interstate students. I guess similar to Rex cadet scheme however you aren't binded within their bs T and C's.

It's in gold coast where I'm located so I will be doing it after completion of my electronic engineering degree. Reason I'm doing this is due to the state of GA in Aus, I need a back plan just incase. Hopefully I'm on the right track :* idk I'm just a newbie

[havick]

If 457 visas are being used to patch the hole temporarily for a pilot shortage then when is anyone (I.e government and private companies) going to do something about the shortage? Or are we forever going to see a highly globalised competition within Aus forever seeing as no one will take initiative for solving this.

Also I'm not sure if you guys have heard of "Australian wings academy" but they allow a HECs VET fee debt scheme to pay for your training for all licences required and you pay it back when you have a job above a certain salary per year. They also offer accommodation for interstate students. I guess similar to Rex cadet scheme however you aren't binded within their bs T and C's.

It's in gold coast where I'm located so I will be doing it after completion of my electronic engineering degree. Reason I'm doing this is due to the state of GA in Aus, I need a back plan just incase. Hopefully I'm on the right track :* idk I'm just a newbie

As much as most on here (including me) advocate that GA experience after finishing your license is great experience, I would surmise that those Rex or jetstar cadets have moved on to much higher paying jobs a lot sooner than slogging it out in GA (rightly or wrongly).

Unless of of course you’re just indirectly advertising for said school you mentioned.

[Akahmi]

As much as most on here (including me) advocate that GA experience after finishing your license is great experience, I would surmise that those Rex or jetstar cadets have moved on to much higher paying jobs a lot sooner than slogging it out in GA (rightly or wrongly).

Unless of of course you’re just indirectly advertising for said school you mentioned.

Ah I see, and I'm definitely not advertising lmao, just letting you guys know. Anyway I hears Rex offers alot of cadetship spots and normal jobs to low hour pilots, that being said I'd most rather do a cadetship but is a general aviation job worth it with Rex since I've heard finding that first job is very difficult? Also I'm new so if this is going too off topic I'll stop.

[soon2bsolo]

..... they allow a HECs VET fee debt scheme to pay for your training for all licences required and you pay it back when you have a job above a certain salary per year.
You will find numerous Universities also have a similar diploma degree in aviation. Some of these have direct relationship with qantas link for grads. Plenty of info on this in this forum..

Note: If your using fee help to do your Electronics degree, you may exceed the fee help cap for the Aviation degree as this only so much the Govt. (aka taxpayers) will assist you with

[ChaseIt]

Keep seeing more and more job ads, yet bugger all increases in pay and conditions... who will cave first that’s the question!

[haughtney1]

Pilot shortage aside, it will take a massive increase in money to lure me home, why would I want to keep at it till im 65 when by the time im 50 in the overseas world I'll have enough to retire. The shortage is a myth...its a pay shortage.

[Rated De]

The shortage is a myth...its a pay shortage.

The market will clear, but you are correct in that to induce supply price must rise.

It will consequently take a period of time for a noticeable change to occur.
However the more acute the more obvious it becomes.

For those practicing the dark art of IR/HR the realisation that their models for recruitment, remuneration and indeed employee control no longer are valid will be a painful process. Heck they may even have to treat people with respect, not just weasel words...

[Flyboy1987]

Heck they may even have to treat people with respect, not just weasel words...

Would be a nice change from being treated like a replaceable piece of dog crap!

[Derfred]

It was interesting to hear the AMA (Aust Medical Assoc) in the media the other week pointing out that we have to increase the pay of our rural GP's to encourage them to go there.

Of course GP's are an essential rural service and are (effectively) paid by our taxes.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if rural aviation, which is also an essential rural service, was pushed the same way.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Here is the scale of the problem just in Japan over the next decade +. By my ballpark calculation, Japan will need to train about 5,500 additional pilots over the next 12 to 15 years based on the numbers in the article.

Who is going to bear the financial risk for the trainees for those unable to get a part loan?

This is the nub of the problem for operators. Nobody wants to bear the risk of spending a very large sum of money only to realise the candidate is not suitable. No operator is going to guarantee a job without a qualification, and few potential pilots are going to take an all-or-nothing risk without a guarantee of a job?

Ultimately national governments will probably have to subsidise some of the risk for both the potential pilot and the operators to solve this dilema.

Interest-free loan program takes off to aid Japan's future pilots

Starting from next academic year, a select number of students dreaming of becoming airline pilots will be eligible to borrow a total of 5 million yen interest free under a new financial aid system called "mirai no pilot" (future pilots).

The funds are being provided by the freshly founded aircraft pilot scholarship foundation, whose representatives include four private universities offering piloting courses -- J. F. Oberlin University, Tokai University, Sojo University and the Chiba Institute of Science -- together with vocational school Japan Aviation Professional College, and New Japan Aviation Co., which offers flight training programs. ANA Holdings Inc. and Japan Airlines Co. will partly cover the cost of operating the foundation and will help select students for the program based on entrance exam scores, English language ability and other factors. The aid is to be repaid 10 years after graduation.

It is hoped the system will help to secure urgently needed pilots as the popularity of low-cost carriers (LCC) and airlines' demands grow. According to the Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport and Tourism's Flight Standards Division, there were 6,389 pilots belonging to Japan's main domestic airlines as of January 2017. In order to meet the central government's goal of having 60 million foreign tourists visit Japan annually by around 2030, Japan will need an estimated 8,500 pilots by then. However, 54 percent of current pilots are aged 45 or older, and are expected to retire in large numbers around 2030.

In expanding their operations, LCCs have already experienced a widespread pilot shortage. Companies including Osaka Prefecture-based Peach Aviation Ltd. and Chiba Prefecture-based Vanilla Air Inc. had to cut at least 2,000 flights in 2014 due to aircraft captains taking sick leave or retiring. Sapporo-based AIRDO Co. also announced a plan to suspend a total of 60 flights in November 2017 and this February due to losing aircraft captains and other pilots to retirement.

As for aviation schools at private universities, Tokai University became the first to offer a course in 2006, with Oberlin, Sojo and the others following its lead. In order to operate a plane, pilot candidates need to acquire a license for each type of aircraft, a commercial pilot license requiring 200 hours of flight experience, among other conditions, as well as an instrument rating to follow the directions of air traffic controllers.

Through the six organizations that created the financial aid system, it is possible to acquire a commercial pilot license and other required certifications, but the cost of training at both domestic and international facilities -- not included in tuition costs -- can run from 9 million to 15 million yen, which is an extremely heavy burden for many students to bear.

"It takes years to raise students to become aircraft captains," says foundation representative and J. F. Oberlin University Chancellor Toyoshi Satow. "Using this system, we would like to cultivate outstanding pilots who fly safely."

Interest-free loan program takes off to aid Japan's future pilots (https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20180114/p2a/00m/0na/006000c)

[Captain Nomad]

as well as an instrument rating to follow the directions of air traffic controllers.

Oh, so THAT'S what my instrument rating is for...! :E

[Aloha_KSA]

If pilots are on the 457 list, should they not also be on the National Skills Needs list? https://www.australianapprenticeships.gov.au/national-skills-needs-list

If these apprenticeships are still a thing, then flight instructors, which meet the requirement of a CERT IV level for VET, could be employed as apprentices at least until they build enough time to earn an ATPL. As the schools would be paying out less money of their own to employ those instructors, they could then lower the cost of training, which would, at least theoretically, make training available to more people.

Has this been discussed already? I didn't find it in my quick search.

[sgenie]

It's not only training accessibility, which is problematic., it was never easy anyway. The biggest problem is a gap between end-of-training experience and the expected hireable experience. In the past this gap was closeable with GA operations. Now it is far harder for the newly trained pilots to get to the point where they become sufficiently experienced for larger operations.

[Trevor the lover]

Is anyone able to give me straight up what a First officer on the F100 with Alliance earns?

[Airbus A320321]

Is anyone able to give me straight up what a First officer on the F100 with Alliance earns?

Look up their EBA on the fair work commision website, stop wasting everyone's time

[Popgun]

why would I want to keep at it till im 65 when by the time im 50 in the overseas world I'll have enough to retire.

Perhaps because you might enjoy it? Perhaps because living in your home country gives you intangible, non-monetary benefits that are often not replaceable in your expat residence?

I'm very thankful I don't view my job as a financial means to a finishing line in a race that I want to end as quickly as possible.

Call me strange...but I actually really enjoy going to work. I manage to keep a decent work/life balance and I think there will probably be a fair bit of disappointment when I do have to hang up the wings one day.

I worked overseas for a decade but really enjoy being home again despite the lower salary.

Horses for courses...

PG

[Brakerider]

Look up their EBA on the fair work commision website, stop wasting everyone's time

In his/her defence, the alliance EBA has the pay section blocked out.

[ViPER_81]

It's not only training accessibility, which is problematic., it was never easy anyway. The biggest problem is a gap between end-of-training experience and the expected hireable experience. In the past this gap was closeable with GA operations. Now it is far harder for the newly trained pilots to get to the point where they become sufficiently experienced for larger operations.


and that's the crux of the problem.


Everyone says "just head up north", but how many GA operations actually exist "up north" that actually take fresh CPL's?


I've seen it a bunch of times on this forum, fresh CPL's ask for info about going north and get a response of "just google it" or "get off your computer and go there and find out for yourself", but does this really help anyone?


Their seems to be an attitude of "In my time I just did X and it worked out for me so you have to do that too", but what does that achieve?


The fresh CPL's don't want to be handed a job as a lot of people claim. The more experienced people shouldn't be actively discouraging people from starting an aviation career though.

[Airbus A320321]

In his/her defence, the alliance EBA has the pay section blocked out.

If that is the case then I'm mistaken and I apologise

[Berealgetreal]

A 200 hour pilot needs to go to places nobody wants to go. Cattle Stations, Farms and remote communities. The Aus aircraft register wil give you an idea of the numerous private operations available. There are no neon signs saying “200 hour pilot apply here”. Most first jobs are private ops with other work attached. This might be station hand, hangar rat etc. Since the beginning of time there have been those that will pack the car up and go. Then there are those that won’t. That’s just human nature. It’s extremely daunting driving off west in the hope to crack the first job. Just comes down to how much you want it. None of this sort of stuff can be explained to someone that hasn’t done it even if they are a pilot let alone a member of HR. Most ex GA guys wouldn’t bother explaining it, there’s no point.

[ViPER_81]

A 200 hour pilot needs to go to places nobody wants to go. Cattle Stations, Farms and remote communities. The Aus aircraft register wil give you an idea of the numerous private operations available. There are no neon signs saying “200 hour pilot apply here”. Most first jobs are private ops with other work attached. This might be station hand, hangar rat etc. Since the beginning of time there have been those that will pack the car up and go. Then there are those that won’t. That’s just human nature. It’s extremely daunting driving off west in the hope to crack the first job. Just comes down to how much you want it. None of this sort of stuff can be explained to someone that hasn’t done it even if they are a pilot let alone a member of HR. Most ex GA guys wouldn’t bother explaining it, there’s no point.


I appreciate the response and I get what you are saying, but I disagree that there is no point explaining it. I would think that a lot of fresh CPL's would appreciate the advise. Everything doesn't need to be explained to Nth degree, but surely there is a point between "Just head north and figure it out yourself" and "200 hour pilot apply here" neon signs.

[t_cas]

For a start, it has the potential to build character.

[chimbu warrior]

Everyone says "just head up north", but how many GA operations actually exist "up north" that actually take fresh CPL's?

I can't speak for GA in Australia, but can certainly assure you that GA in PNG is a mere shadow of what it was 30 or even 20 years ago. Some of the reasons differ from Australia (virtual non-availability of Avgas, CASA PNG imposed minimum experience requirements, tougher rules for obtaining a work permit etc), but the fact this that there just are no entry-level positions in PNG. Solomons has no expats either from what I understand.

[Chocks Away]

Keep seeing more and more job ads, yet bugger all increases in pay and conditions... who will cave first that’s the question! - ChaseIt
:D :D
That there is EXACTLY the issue!

Some Airline managements overseas recognised it long ago and increased T's & C's to attract the crew & "save face", as it was very much a cultural pressure at play... not being the one responsible for having expensive aircraft parked against the fence. Fingers were pointed and managers responsible lost their jobs!

Now Australia...:ugh::hmm: plenty of serious stern looks across Boardroom tables as pens are pushed around... meetings had with plenty of big fluffy words from HR & Consultants BUT STILL NO INCREASE IN TERMS & CONDITIONS!

Australia is an expensive, litigious and bureaucratic place now, regardless of all the lovely words mentioned previously like Dorothy, clicking her red shiny heals together.

Yes, each to their own, regarding personal circumstances plus the good point made earlier on generational capacities of the Baby-boomers etc etc.

Until more $$ are on the table for those at the coal face INSTEAD of bonuses for the Million Dollar muppets responsible for this, pilots (& engineers) will continue to flock overseas to gain respect, dollars and their early retirement.:ok:

[Berealgetreal]

Oh sure didn’t mean it in a “couldn’t be bothered telling you way”. More like we won’t try to convince people that think it’s pointless and has no added value to the growth of a pilot. Besides just because a pilot didn’t do the pilgrimage doesn’t mean they are a lessor candidate. I do know for me at least, it put me in multiple sticky situations nearly everyday. I probably needed it!

There were some good times and some bad times I’m just glad I didn’t get killed as quite a few I knew did. PNG? That’s another level again...

[ViPER_81]

Oh sure didn’t mean it in a “couldn’t be bothered telling you way”. More like we won’t try to convince people that think it’s pointless and has no added value to the growth of a pilot. Besides just because a pilot didn’t do the pilgrimage doesn’t mean they are a lessor candidate. I do know for me at least, it put me in multiple sticky situations nearly everyday. I probably needed it!

There were some good times and some bad times I’m just glad I didn’t get killed as quite a few I knew did. PNG? That’s another level again...

Ah ok, yeah that makes sense. I completely agree that the flying experience would be amazing and could only make you a better pilot.

[Trevor the lover]

A320A321


I spent about 45 minutes trolling bunches of websites looking for the information. I appreciate your apology, but there was no need to fire off like a an old grouch at all. For someone who knows, just putting the figure here would have taken less time than what you wrote. So you wasted your own time.


Everyone seems to forget that PPrune is like a chat in a pub between mates, nothing more. Such as after an aircraft accident - if 5 pilots were in a pub discussing it and speculating, none of them would do the old "let's wait for the report fellas before speculating." We'd chat about it. Likewise, if 5 of us were in a pub and I said how much does an F/O at Alliance earn, would you turn to me and say look it up on FWA, stop wasting our time? I doubt it. PPRune is a pub chat. Lefties not needed here.


And the reason I spent so long on line looking for the answer was because I just knew that if I asked here some twisted and bitter zipperhead would reply just as you did.

[Capn Bloggs]

Well said TTL.

[Rated De]

Some years ago I crunched the numbers on how much it would cost to install a pilot retention bonus. Not a pretend or cynical low shelf life token that we’ve seen pop up from time to time, but a permanent and significant enticement to stay put.

I share the sentiment Krusty. It isn't about money, sadly they know the price of everything, the value of nothing.
As the airlines found that do take a different line, labour unit cost should be a consideration not an absolute focus.

Herb Kelleher worked from the other end, starting with employees and working backwards...Worked for just on 50 years.

A company is stronger if bound by love, than by fear.

-Herb Kelleher

Cannot imagine a Leigh Clifford, 'self anointed industry captain' type even under duress mouthing such sentiment. Sadly for him he is shortly to be consigned to history as he is pretty much done as his his model of 'leadership'.

Airlines that treat people with respect, not weasel words through faux smiles and focus groups will actually firstly attract qualified crew and then keep them.

We are a while off that yet, but demographics ensure they will be forced to change.

[Airbus A320321]

A320A321


I spent about 45 minutes trolling bunches of websites looking for the information. I appreciate your apology, but there was no need to fire off like a an old grouch at all. For someone who knows, just putting the figure here would have taken less time than what you wrote. So you wasted your own time.


Everyone seems to forget that PPrune is like a chat in a pub between mates, nothing more. Such as after an aircraft accident - if 5 pilots were in a pub discussing it and speculating, none of them would do the old "let's wait for the report fellas before speculating." We'd chat about it. Likewise, if 5 of us were in a pub and I said how much does an F/O at Alliance earn, would you turn to me and say look it up on FWA, stop wasting our time? I doubt it. PPRune is a pub chat. Lefties not needed here.


And the reason I spent so long on line looking for the answer was because I just knew that if I asked here some twisted and bitter zipperhead would reply just as you did.

I'm not an old grouch mate, I'm in my mid 20's. If I knew I'd tell ya but I think it's obvious given my name that I work for another mob.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Agreed Angryrat, it reminds me of a famous quote:
Americans can always be counted on to do the right thing…after they have exhausted all other possibilities.

--Attributed (falsely) to Winston Churchill (https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/11/11/exhaust-alternatives/)

[Akahmi]

I just don't understand why airlines hate pilots so much. But could it be that we're seeing a normalisation of the Aviation industry because more people are able to travel by planes now than ever before? Like when buses for example were first introduced surely the prices would have been expensive then later on it obviously decreased. So it's like pilots are being treated as bus drivers, some airlines just don't seem to recognise the skill set required for being a pilot.

[framer]

They are about to find out how long it takes to build the skill set of an average Airline Captain I reckon.

[Rated De]

So it's like pilots are being treated as bus drivers, some airlines just don't seem to recognise the skill set required for being a pilot. Corporations are today divided: Administration and Operation. Very much by design. As a result driven by MBA process learning 'manager' see labour unit cost as something to be reduced.

The dis-function evident in many industries is attributable to the divide between function and administration. It is something academia and industry are trying to overcome; the lack of knowledge has real implications on business performance. Lack of operational knowledge costs...

For managers, pilots were in unlimited supply.

Regional airlines in Australia plundered GA, GA itself provided opportunities but also exploited pilots who had expended substantial funds acquiring entry level skills. The military too suffered as when the big airlines opened the door they lost crew.

None of these entities saw a problem in not giving back. The allowed administration to denigrate, employer heavy 'legislation and bargaining saw downward pressure on terms and conditions an accepted norm, and in Australia CASA over regulated the smaller and was captured by the larger aviation interests.

Supply of resources are finite, pilots are no exception.

The paradigm has changed and through gritted teeth and false smiles will be words like respect...Think Michael O'Leary in the recent months

Watch the airlines open flight training businesses 'to give back'.
Having set up floors at Waterside, CX city and Coward Street airlines have to confront the reality that the downward pressure and denigration of terms and conditions they loved inflicting is over, the careers they stymied, the cowardly way they hide behind terms like efficiency and market rates, world best practice will progressively disappear

[Blitzkrieger]

Watch the airlines open flight training businesses 'to give back'.
Having set up floors at Waterside, CX city and Coward Street airlines have to confront the reality that the downward pressure and denigration of terms and conditions they loved inflicting is over, the careers they stymied, the cowardly way they hide behind terms like efficiency and market rates, world best practice will progressively disappear


Agreed. The hardest thing now is to convince pilots to accelerate this change by being bold and forcing the point about their professional worth to their respective companies. It will only be a slow and incremental process if pilots allow it to be.

[Falling Leaf]

IMO pilot T&C's will never improve in this country until the pilot group can get one united union. The fragmentation of the present arrangement plays right into the hands of management. At my previous carrier we had pilots who were either members of VIPA, AFAP or TWU. Game, set and match to management!

Just look at the T&C's of any job the CFMEU have their paws on. People with a much smaller skill set then pilots often getting paid significantly more. My favourite is the unskilled labourer on the Tullamarine Freeway widening project who can pull 150K pa!

Management will exhaust all other options to deal with this 'pilot shortage' before increasing T&C's or the even more unlikely notion of 'respect' gets on their agenda. Think 457 Visa's, indefinitely stalling CAO 48.1 etc etc....

[Blitzkrieger]

IMO pilot T&C's will never improve in this country until the pilot group can get one united union


,and not self serving ones either.

[Trevor the lover]

A320321 - "I'm not an old grouch mate, I'm in my mid 20's"


haha, get some time up mate

[JamieMaree]

The finest example is the Qantas lockout.

They :mad: en hate pilots.

Angry rat, if you truly believe that then you don’t understand one iota of what that was all about.
BTW have you heard much from Steve Purvinas or Tony Sheldon on airline industrial matters since that unfortunate occurrence?

[Aloha_KSA]

I share the sentiment Krusty. It isn't about money, sadly they know the price of everything, the value of nothing.
As the airlines found that do take a different line, labour unit cost should be a consideration not an absolute focus.

Herb Kelleher worked from the other end, starting with employees and working backwards...Worked for just on 50 years.

A company is stronger if bound by love, than by fear.

-Herb Kelleher

Cannot imagine a Leigh Clifford, 'self anointed industry captain' type even under duress mouthing such sentiment. Sadly for him he is shortly to be consigned to history as he is pretty much done as his his model of 'leadership'.

Airlines that treat people with respect, not weasel words through faux smiles and focus groups will actually firstly attract qualified crew and then keep them.

We are a while off that yet, but demographics ensure they will be forced to change.


Who did Herb Kelleher have to answer to? How about Richard Branson? Elon Musk? Steven Jobs? Visionaries who change the world rarely have to do a board of directors carpet dance explaining why they chose to to do great things, like make the iphone, limit their fleet to one type of aircraft, or why they chose to reinvest their PayPal corporate earnings into an electric car startup. There's a saying in investing: "bet on the horse, not on the rider". I know we do not often have the opportunity to choose which "horse" we are betting our careers on in aviation, but at least we can be wise enough to know when we should have a plan B in place. When I arrived on site at one job I was told that I should think of my new position as if I had been handed two buckets. One for bullsh*t and one for $$. When either bucket was full, it was time to move on. My BS bucket has grown smaller and smaller with age. I might suggest that if one arrives on property with their BS bucket already half full, they'd better keep an eye out for another horse to wager on. Some jockies flog their horses and achieve short-term victories. Some have a partnership and create industry icons that consistently lead the herd.

[Rated De]

"bet on the horse, not on the rider".This is very true. At Qantas I believe the problem to begin with the world view held by Leigh Clifford. I have mentioned on other forums that I have CEO level connections who have been present at corporate functions, he has neither vision, nor leadership, unless of course you consider moving forward to be driving flat out with your view firmly focused on the rear vision mirror. (Apologies to Paul Keating) The problem with corporate structures is as a business matures, an overly complex internal structure. A bit like a computer it fills with junk, like HR, IR and all these other cost centres. So much so that businesses actually forget what it is they are supposed to do. The inefficiency that these cost centres focus on is ALWAYS elsewhere. Usually operational areas. Front line bank employees, service technicians. Outsource to contractors and automation. In airlines this is seen as get the customer to self check in, self tag their bag etc. Not always bad decisions but increasingly there are two parts of the business: 1. Operational 2. Administrative. One cuts the other, growing in importance.

Most airline 'administration/management' hierarchy can be bolted on in a telecommunications, manufacturing or banking 'management' and their day to day function changes little. This is why airline employees need a bigger bucket for BS than $$. As I regularly consult with many different organisations i can attest to operational employees at most organisations needing similar buckets. There is a fundamental disconnect. High level discussions believe it is part education (Generic MBA) and interestingly the modern paradigm of infinite growth from a finite business; things get whackier and whackier in search of the perpetual growth. It was not always like that.



https://s14-eu5.ixquick.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=https:%2F%2Fvignette.wikia.nocookie.net%2Ffam ilyguy%2Fimages%2Ff%2Ff7%2FTil_Death.png%2Frevision%2Flatest %3Fcb%3D20110226214600&sp=7237f571d67d007b1b560dfd16b8b478

Many modern airlines are indeed horses, not really in tune with what it is they actually do...
Airlines need pilots, they need cabin crew and they need good engineering.
Whether they voluntarily rescind their adversarial HR/IR posture, reducing the influence (cost) or the market does it for them, this horse may in its current form need to go to the glue factory...

[JamieMaree]

If you believe for one moment that management think it was an accident, mistake or just unlucky that the pilots were caught up in the lockout, it's time to put the cup of KoolAid down.


No I don’t think that. I do think that getting the pilots caught up in the projected lockout and what followed was a bonus. I do believe that if was just the pilots taking the protected action it wouldn’t have happened. Wearing red ties and making propaganda PAs wasn’t causing a problem.

[Dark Knight]

Define Experience?

Are 250 hour plus pilots capable of sitting in the right hand, or even the Left Hand seat of today’s modern aircraft?

Who should define experience required?

Human Resources; Industrial Relations Clerks?

History and experience shows pilots with minimal experience are daily fulfilling these roles having done so successfully for many years with many becoming the senior experienced Captains of today.

The pilots illustrated below and equally pilots of the allied forces, Britain, Canada, Poland, Australia, New Zealand, to mention but a few, (with apologies for not having the corresponding figures) particularly those who survived, went on to establish the airlines, the excellent procedures we have today. Along the way they trained and, more importantly, mentored their protégé producing today’s professional airlines crews.


WWII U.S. Army Air Corps

Back in the day when America was in the "Big War" WWII, these planes were flown by young boys. Politically correct was go to war to break things and kill the enemy. Apparently, no one worried about nose art on the bombers.
BTW: More airmen died in WWII than Marines.

Almost 1,000 Army planes disappeared enroute from the US to foreign locations. But an eye-watering 43,581 aircraft were lost overseas including 22,948 on combat missions (18,418 against the Western Axis) and 20,633 attributed to non-combat causes overseas.

In a single 376 plane raid in August 1943, 60 B-17s were shot down. That was a 16 percent loss rate and meant 600 empty bunks in England. In 1942-43 it was statistically impossible for bomber crews to complete a 25-mission tour in Europe.

Pacific theatre losses were far less (4,530 in combat) owing to smaller forces committed.. The worst B-29 mission, against Tokyo on May 25, 1945, cost 26 Superfortresses, 5.6 percent of the 464 dispatched from the Marianas.
On average, 6,600 American servicemen died per month during WWII, about 220 a day. By the end of the war, over 40,000 airmen were killed in combat theatres and another 18,000 wounded. Some 12,000 missing men were declared dead, including a number "liberated" by the Soviets but never returned. More than 41,000 were captured, half of the 5,400 held by the Japanese died in captivity, compared with one-tenth in German hands. Total combat casualties were pegged at 121,867.

US manpower made up the deficit. The AAF's peak strength was reached in 1944 with 2,372,000 personnel, nearly twice the previous year's figure.
The losses were huge---but so were production totals. From 1941 through 1945, American industry delivered more than 276,000 military aircraft. That number was enough not only for US Army, Navy and Marine Corps, but for allies as diverse as Britain, Australia, China and Russia. In fact, from 1943 onward, America produced more planes than Britain and Russia combined.

And more than Germany and Japan together 1941-45

However, our enemies took massive losses. Through much of 1944, the Luftwaffe sustained uncontrolled haemorrhaging, reaching 25 percent of aircrews and 40 planes a month. And in late 1944 into 1945, nearly half the pilots in Japanese squadrons had flown fewer than 200 hours. The disparity of two years before had been completely reversed.

Experience Level:

Uncle Sam sent many of his sons to war with absolute minimums of training. Some fighter pilots entered combat in 1942 with less than one hour in their assigned aircraft.

The 357th Fighter Group (often known as The Yoxford Boys) went to England in late 1943 having trained on P-39s. The group never saw a Mustang until shortly before its first combat mission.

A high-time P-51 pilot had 30 hours in type. Many had fewer than five hours. Some had one hour.

With arrival of new aircraft, many combat units transitioned in combat. The attitude was, "They all have a stick and a throttle. Go fly “em." When the famed 4th Fighter Group converted from P-47s to P-51s in February 1944, there was no time to stand down for an orderly transition.

The Group commander, Col. Donald Blakeslee, said, "You can learn to fly `51s on the way to the target.

A future P-47 ace said, "I was sent to England to die." He was not alone.
Some fighter pilots tucked their wheels in the well on their first combat mission with one previous flight in the aircraft. Meanwhile, many bomber crews were still learning their trade: of Jimmy Doolittle's 15 pilots on the April 1942 Tokyo raid, only five had won their wings before 1941.

All but one of the 16 co-pilots were less than a year out of flight school.
In WWII flying safety took a back seat to combat. The AAF's worst accident rate was recorded by the A-36 Invader version of the P-51: a staggering 274 accidents per 100,000 flying hours.

Next worst were the P-39 at 245, the P-40 at 188, and the P-38 at 139. All were Allison powered.

Bomber wrecks were fewer but more expensive. The B-17 and B-24 averaged 30 and 35 accidents per 100,000 flight hours, respectively-- a horrific figure considering that from 1980 to 2000 the Air Force's major mishap rate was less than 2.

The B-29 was even worse at 40; the world's most sophisticated, most capable and most expensive bomber was too urgently needed to stand down for mere safety reasons.. The AAF set a reasonably high standard for B-29 pilots, but the desired figures were seldom attained.

The original cadre of the 58th Bomb Wing was to have 400 hours of multi-engine time, but there were not enough experienced pilots to meet the criterion. Only ten percent had overseas experience. Conversely, when a $2.1 billion B-2 crashed in 2008, the Air Force initiated a two-month "safety pause" rather than declare a "stand down", let alone grounding.

The B-29 was no better for maintenance. Though the R3350 was known as a complicated, troublesome power-plant, no more than half the mechanics had previous experience with the Duplex Cyclone. But they made it work.

Navigators:

Perhaps the greatest unsung success story of AAF training was Navigators.
The Army graduated some 50,000 during the War. And many had never flown out of sight of land before leaving "Uncle Sugar" for a war zone. Yet the huge majority found their way across oceans and continents without getting lost or running out of fuel --- a stirring tribute to the AAF's educational establishments.

Cadet To Colonel:

It was possible for a flying cadet at the time of Pearl Harbor to finish the war with eagles on his shoulders. That was the record of John D. Landers, a 21-year-old Texan, who was commissioned a second lieutenant on December 12, 1941. He joined his combat squadron with 209 hours total flight time, including 2 in P-40s. He finished the war as a full colonel, commanding an 8th Air Force Group --- at age 24.

As the training pipeline filled up, however those low figures became exceptions.

By early 1944, the average AAF fighter pilot entering combat had logged at least 450 hours, usually including 250 hours in training. At the same time, many captains and first lieutenants claimed over 600 hours.

FACT:

At its height in mid-1944, the Army Air Forces had 2.6 million people and nearly 80,000 aircraft of all types.

Today the US Air Force employs 327,000 active personnel (plus 170,000 civilians) with 5,500+ manned and perhaps 200 unmanned aircraft.
The 2009 figures represent about 12 percent of the manpower and 7 percent of the airplanes of the WWII peak.


IN SUMMATION

Whether there will ever be another war like that experienced in 1940-45 is doubtful, as fighters and bombers have given way to helicopters and remotely-controlled drones over Afghanistan and Iraq.

But within living memory, men left the earth in 1,000-plane formations and fought major battles five miles high, leaving a legacy that remains timeless.

[CaptCloudbuster]

With those horrendous losses quoted I think we all (including HR and IR Clerks) can safely deduce the experience required/ demanded by the fare paying 21st Century public to be more than that of a WWII Pilot.

[A Squared]

You can either fly, or you can’t.

I’ve flown with 300 hours pilots who’s skill is better than some 3,000 hour pilots I’ve flown with. There are good and bad operators in EVERY aspect of the industry, GA, military and the airlines.

A good indication is time taken to solo. I think anything from 10 to 15 hours to solo is on the mark and these pilots generally progress to become competent pilots.

The point I’m making, is the pilot shortage can be resolved by lowering the unreasonable minimums required for the right hand seat. Hours aside, if the applicant is a good pilot, why do they not deserve a shot?

Let’s not forget, you only need a CPL as a minimum to fly as the FO. Asking for 2,000 TT, 500 multi PIC , ATPL and all the other crap they ask for to be an FO is over the top and unnecessary and doesn’t necessarily make them an outstanding pilot.

Something more reasonable would be 500 PIC and 3 years to attain the ATPL exam credits.

Raptor

So really, the only interview question that is ever relevant is "Did you solo in under 15 hours?"

Sounds kinda dumb, right? Yeah, exactly. Yes, I'm sure that if one looked hard enough, one could find an extraordinarily talented 300 hour pilot who was better than an extremely inept 3,000 hour pilot. But pretending that there's no difference between the average 3000 hour pilot and the average 300 hour pilot is a bit inane.

[Who stole my meds]

The reality is minimum requirements will be dictated by supply (as has been stated time and again). Whether a 300 hour pilot is as good or better than a 3000 hour pilot is irrelevant. Attitude and a willingness to learn from others is more important, particularly from the 3000 hour pilot ( I say that only cause the 3000 hour pilot has seen and done far more than the 300 hour pilot and may be of the belief that they know better)

There were plenty of jobs I would have liked to be a part of but with no ATPL, I wasn't considered. Now those jobs will look at you with a CPL (last I looked, it has been a while).

If Airlines really want to pick the best of the best advertise the minimums that are in accordance with the regulations. Pilots put their name in, when their name get's to the top they get a chance, If they're good enough they've got the job, if not, name goes to the bottom of the list and try again when their name is at the top again.

[Thai Pom]

Plus in The Air Force, fails and you are gone. No lets throw more cash at it

[Berealgetreal]

Why does the cadet debate have to find its way into every second thread? Management decide what they want and that’s pretty much it.

Natural talent takes you nowhere without work. The one natural talent you do want in life, career and love is that of working at it and trying to improve no matter what your experience level. Naturally persistent.

[pilotchute]

If the Govt at the time hadn't let flying school schools access to Fee Help we would have a big short fall of pilots right now.

Wages would have increased and hiring mins decreased.

[Gligg]

I think a point is being missed here. What if you had the opportunity to hire a good operator with 300 hours, or hire that same pilot 3000 hours later but at a higher salary due to that accrued experience. Cadets are good for the bottom line, regardless of ability.

[Brakerider]

I think a point is being missed here. What if you had the opportunity to hire a good operator with 300 hours, or hire that same pilot 3000 hours later but at a higher salary due to that accrued experience. Cadets are good for the bottom line, regardless of ability.

In Australia, you can't pay the cadet less because they only have 300 hours. Same role, same pay.

[pilotchute]

I am sure there is a company that pays "junior first officers" a lower salary.

[Rabbitwear]

The Airlines need to have Cadet schemes that are fully funded by the Airline , this way they will have a larger pool of people to choose from , instead of the wealthy family types .
The training could have a $200,000 5 year bond that is deducted pre tax for the first 5 years of employment , this way everybody wins !

[CurtainTwitcher]

The Airlines need to have Cadet schemes that are fully funded by the Airline ,

Problem #1 - Liability for the operator, Add's debt to the balance sheet.

Problem #2 The operator will have to bear some or all of the financial risk for failures. Who is going to sign up to a deal where they owe $200,000 without a job? Chicken and the egg problem - you have to prove you can be a pilot before someone will help your to pay to become a pilot.


The training could have a $200,000 5 year bond that is deducted pre tax for the first 5 years of employment , this way everybody wins !

problem #3 Is education tax deductible prior to getting a job that requires that education? If not, it must come out of post tax pay.

problem #4 Other operators have incentive to poach and pay out the bond as they don't have to take the expensive risk & liability, plus they are getting a proven performer.


I don't believe that Australian operators have yet come to the realisation that we will need to go down the path of creating a liability for themselves just to keep the planes flying. This will happen, but we need a major crisis before this happens. We are not there yet...

[mikewil]

Problem #2 The operator will have to bear some or all of the financial risk for failures. Who is going to sign up to a deal where they owe $200,000 without a job?

This is already how funding is for most cadetships in Australia.

Virgin uses the government fee-help as their funding, so there is no risk to the operator if the cadet doesn't make the grade or pulls out.

I'm pretty sure Rex offer the loan themselves (80% of a ~$120k loan), but if the cadet fails to complete the program and their service period, they are liable for paying the full amount back to Rex.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Yes, I understand the VET/FEE-HELP system is in place. The cadet still ends up paying the total bill in after tax dollars. Failure to qualify still falls on the shoulders of the cadet backstopped by the Federal government as the loan is eventually recouped through via the tax system.

Doing it this way removes most ability for the operator to control the pilot. Just starting to hear experienced FO's are taking China contracts too, I presume for their upgrade potential.

Learning to fly is still financially highly risky. Operators may eventually need to assume some of that risk to keep the equipment flying.

[Rated De]

Operators may eventually need to assume some of that risk to keep the equipment flying.https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/nov/10/uber-loses-appeal-employment-rights-workers

As the contractor assumed responsibility for costs usually borne by an employer (think retirement and sick leave) the push continued unabated.

For pilots the risk and expense is substantial and a serious impediment. It is this reality and a sober assessment of terms and conditions that likely is in part responsible for the lack of qualified applicant.

Eventually airlines in Australia will have to abandon their adversarial posture and perhaps even realise that all the fancy bolt on bits of the modern corporation need revenue; for an airline that remains flying. Flying needs pilots.

It will be amusing to see faux smiles and media releases as airline managers through gritted teeth say pilots are important and as a result our airline is investing...and actually incur the cost instead of outsourcing it to the pilot. It has been amusing watching Mr O'Leary have to back off

[Angle of Attack]

Well I think with the latest comment from Andrew David re Jetconnect and Network the gloves are off, PIA will be the only way, bring on delayed EBAs!

[Brakerider]

Well I think with the latest comment from Andrew David re Jetconnect and Network the gloves are off, PIA will be the only way, bring on delayed EBAs!

Please enlighten us?

[DirectAnywhere]

Short story, an email to members today from AIPA indicates the company is unwilling to provide firm and binding assurances regarding its intentions for either Network or Jetconnect.

Mainline pilots now face pilots on far inferior contracts, flying the same aircraft, which are soon to be VH registered, doing flying they used to do.

Further, unbidden, the company has made reference to further 787 orders and the 747/ 380 replacement in its communications with AIPA. The subtext and intent is clear - play nice, cop the pineapple or the shiny new jets go elsewhere.

Pilots have been here before and simply don’t trust a company which has shown its willingness to ground the airline and use plenty of nasty tricks, including demotions, to accomplish its industrial agenda.

[RealityCzech]

What firm and binding assurances were asked for??

My understanding is that they could have operated jetconnect within Australia (aka cabotage) under the CER's SAM rights for many years now - even as ZK registered jets - yet they have not. Why all the knickers in a knot now just because they are VH registered? What difference does the rego make?

[RealityCzech]

icao.int/sustainability/CaseStudies/StatesReplies/Trans-Tasman_EN.pdf

[theheadmaster]

The issue was that Andrew David had told AIPA late last year that he had been given approval by Alan Joyce to provide assurances. The format and words were to be finalised over Christmas. At the meeting last week where AIPA was expecting to be told what form and words would be employed, Andrew David stated that there would be no assurances given.

[RealityCzech]

And did he give any detail on what that assurance might be? Or was the wording more like he would go away and try to get some sort of assurance but couldn't really say what, because he didn't know? Why has the lack of assurance not been an issue until the rego change - which makes no practical difference to what they can/can't do? Did anyone really expect some written assurance scope clause? 2011????

[Rated De]

Can't believe someone questioned me when I said management :mad: en hate pilots :rolleyes:

Did anyone really expect some written assurance scope clause?



The majority of pilots hoped the long war of attrition was over as Qantas was 'transformed'. The mistake made was they assumed the other side did to.

It has whole floors of people who have a sole focus: Lower labour unit cost, by fair means or foul.

As I repeatedly stated, the structure is adversarial, it will not be unwound. Ryan air has not changed, it merely paused.

The model will only change when change is forced. With industrial options limited it is really up to pilots themselves: Understand this shortage is structural it is demographic and if understood, any implied threats carry little weight.

Qantas can ill afford another fight after handsomely rewarding themselves for 'transforming' the company.

Pull back the curtain, Network Aviation, Jetconnect et al are likely attracting very few applicants.

Announcing 457 visas in the Christmas hiatus is old school political management. The scary part is that AIPA and the other unions didn't know it was coming, despite a lobbying presence?

[RealityCzech]

The majority of pilots hoped the long war of attrition was over as Qantas was 'transformed'. The mistake made was they assumed the other side did to.

It has whole floors of people who have a sole focus: Lower labour unit cost, by fair means or foul.

As I repeatedly stated, the structure is adversarial, it will not be unwound. Ryan air has not changed, it merely paused.

The model will only change when change is forced. With industrial options limited it is really up to pilots themselves: Understand this shortage is structural it is demographic and if understood, any implied threats carry little weight.

Qantas can ill afford another fight after handsomely rewarding themselves for 'transforming' the company.

Pull back the curtain, Network Aviation, Jetconnect et al are likely attracting very few applicants.

Announcing 457 visas in the Christmas hiatus is old school political management. The scary part is that AIPA and the other unions didn't know it was coming, despite a lobbying presence?

What does moving ZK registered airframes on to the VH register have to do with any supposed 'war of attrition' ? Their ability to use these planes domestically in AUS with NZ jetconnect crew was already there and still is there :ugh:

Seems to me that people are being whipped into a frenzy over something that has neither increased nor decreased Qantas' options. Why? Because someone supposedly said something misleading? Still waiting to hear what AD apparently said - or what people have chosen to think he said.

[ElZilcho]

What does moving ZK registered airframes on to the VH register have to do with any supposed 'war of attrition' ? Their ability to use these planes domestically in AUS with NZ jetconnect crew was already there and still is there :ugh:

Seems to me that people are being whipped into a frenzy over something that has neither increased nor decreased Qantas' options. Why? Because someone supposedly said something misleading? Still waiting to hear what AD apparently said - or what people have chosen to think he said.

I believe there’s something in the Australian Fair work act that prevents it. No doubt someone more in the know can weigh in, but I’ve always been under the impression that QANTAS cannot use Jetconnect on Domestic services.

[Troo believer]

What does moving ZK registered airframes on to the VH register have to do with any supposed 'war of attrition' ? Their ability to use these planes domestically in AUS with NZ jetconnect crew was already there and still is there :ugh:

Seems to me that people are being whipped into a frenzy over something that has neither increased nor decreased Qantas' options. Why? Because someone supposedly said something misleading? Still waiting to hear what AD apparently said - or what people have chosen to think he said.

Company stooge.?
Management have no integrity and haven’t for years. Say one thing and do the opposite.
We don’t trust you or your ulterior nefarious motives. This latest move will only stiffen the resolve of the pilot cohort. Any remaining goodwill is now lost. How foolish. With acute shortages and significant day to day crewing problems you now decide to insult us with this diatribe. Once again you’ve gone back on your word and it will be reciprocated.
Once bitten twice shy.

[RealityCzech]

"I believe there’s something in the Australian Fair work act that prevents it. No doubt someone more in the know can weigh in, but I’ve always been under the impression that QANTAS cannot use Jetconnect on Domestic services."

You might need to look into that.... Qantas cannot use Jetconnect domestically in Australia on Qantas services (theoretically this could be done if provided for in the relevant AUS EBA) - but they can on Jetconnect-operated services. See the difference?

"Company stooge.?
Management have no integrity and haven’t for years. Say one thing and do the opposite.
We don’t trust you or your ulterior nefarious motives. This latest move will only stiffen the resolve of the pilot cohort. Any remaining goodwill is now lost. How foolish. With acute shortages and significant day to day crewing problems you now decide to insult us with this diatribe. Once again you’ve gone back on your word and it will be reciprocated.
Once bitten twice shy. "

Still waiting to hear what was said and what opposite of that was done. I find it hard to believe that AD told AIPA he was authorised to give them a scope clause style assurance. Even if he did, I find it even harder to think that would've been believed. Such a thing would be 180 degrees off the way they have always operated. Any why was some assurance suddenly so necessary after a rego change that is basically meaningless from an industrial perspective? Sorry for being confused.

I'm not a company stooge, whatever that is. I'm just trying to understand why the hysteria when I see nothing of any practical effect has changed. You might say I'm trying to work out why I'm supposed to suddenly be so angry.

[ElZilcho]

"I believe there’s something in the Australian Fair work act that prevents it. No doubt someone more in the know can weigh in, but I’ve always been under the impression that QANTAS cannot use Jetconnect on Domestic services."

You might need to look into that.... Qantas cannot use Jetconnect domestically in Australia on Qantas services - but they can on Jetconnect-operated services. See the difference?


Interesting. Thanks for the clarification as I’m on the wrong side of the ditch to know all the pieces of the puzzle.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Think FWA is going to protect you? There is already precedent with the Qantas group for domestic work by overseas based crew. They have a plan to circumvent inconvenient legislation. Note also that a NZ resident is entitled to work within Australia, unlike Thai or Singaporeans so they won't even have to use the fig leaf of an international tag.

Rural Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee (http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id:committees%2Fcommsen%2F9a3a5155-5f1d-4061-babb-c33c2b7df140%2F0005)
04/11/2011

Senator XENOPHON: The complaint that has been put to me from overseas based flight attendants and from those who work for Jetstar here in Australia is that these flight attendants, whilst they're nominally based in Thailand or Singapore or another base, for example, actually spend most of their time within Australia flying either around Australia or in and out of Australia. What is your knowledge of those practices?

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes : My knowledge of those practices is that they are definitely flying within our domestic network. They are doing accommodations of four Melbourne returns six days in a row.

Senator XENOPHON: Are they tagged as international flights?

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes : They are tagged in that the aircraft starts in the domestic area. I will give you an example. The aircraft might start in Sydney and go to Darwin, where the cabin crew will get off. That aircraft, however, will continue on to Singapore, Manila or Denpasar. The foreign cabin crew get off, overnight in a hotel, and complete domestic sectors back and forth.

Senator XENOPHON: So they are effectively on domestic flights?

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes : Correct.

Senator XENOPHON: They leave from a domestic terminal?

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes : Correct.

Senator XENOPHON: You do not have to go through Customs?

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes : No.

Senator XENOPHON: Years ago I went on an internationally tagged flight but you had to clear through Customs even though it was a domestic flight. There is none of that?

Ms Neeteson-Lemkes : No.

[RealityCzech]

Maybe I'm just really stupid ?

I'm supposed to be really angry that they're putting ZK planes on the VH register to increase utilization and can still do industrially what they could already do beforehand? Right....

[RealityCzech]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

Czech, the issue isn’t what the company can or can’t legally do with its crews. Nor is it the previously-offered written assurance, because we all knew that was never going to be worth the toilet paper it was printed on.

The issue is that once again, the company has shamelessly reneged on a previous undertaking, and thrown in some fairly unsubtle threats about EBAs and future aircraft acquisitions into the bargain. Personally, I’m not that angry, because I really didn’t expect any better.

[Troo believer]

Maybe I'm just really stupid ?

I'm supposed to be really angry that they're putting ZK planes on the VH register to increase utilization and can still do industrially what they could already do beforehand? Right....

Yes, scored an own goal.

[RealityCzech]

itsnotthatbloodyhard (https://www.pprune.org/members/422642-itsnotthatbloodyhard), Thanks for an answer that isn't name calling or irrelevant labels.

For mine, the Network A320 setup is infinitely more concerning than Jetconnect, but all the noise and fury is being directed at JC for some reason.

When you say they have shamelessly reneged on a previous undertaking - what undertaking have they reneged on? What undertaking was actually made? I can't see any undertaking in the Qantas emails about it, nor in the AIPA email, apart from the very vague mention in the AIPA emails of wanting assurances and having meetings about assurances.

My guess is that AD promised to go away and see what undertakings (if any) he could get and this has somehow been interpreted as some sort of scope clause undertaking was likely or was in the bag. I hope I'm wrong.

There's a big difference between undertaking to go away and see what additional undertakings can be made versus giving the actual desired undertaking straight up.

[neville_nobody]

I would suggest that they could probably crew a subcontracted international airline in the short term despite what Rated-De says. Which is why they are trying it on. They know there are enough Australian citizens working overseas who could easily come home. Additional to to cheaper labour for QF they also put alot of pressure on EK,EY and CX.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

When you say they have shamelessly reneged on a previous undertaking - what undertaking have they reneged on? What undertaking was actually made? I can't see any undertaking in the Qantas emails about it, nor in the AIPA email, apart from the very vague mention in the AIPA emails of wanting assurances and having meetings about assurances.

My guess is that AD promised to go away and see what undertakings (if any) he could get and this has somehow been interpreted as some sort of scope clause undertaking was likely or was in the bag. I hope I'm wrong.

I think it’s fair to say you are wrong.

“Qantas has offered to provide letters of assurance to address AIPA concerns.” (AIPA President, November 2017)

“Qantas stated they were prepared to offer assurances around confining these operations to what they were purported to be.” (AIPA President, yesterday)

and then

“Andrew David advised discussions with Group management had resulted in a decision that, in the interests of the Group, NO assurance would be offered around the Jetconnect or Network Aviation Plans.” (AIPA President, yesterday)


Nowhere did I see that these assurances were ever sought by AIPA - rather, they were offered by QANTAS (and from the tone of AIPA’s emails, regarded with low expectations). The disappointing thing, for anyone who’s still surprised by any of this, is that once again the company appears to have acted with a lack of good faith and integrity.

[RealityCzech]

I think it’s fair to say you are wrong.

“Qantas has offered to provide letters of assurance to address AIPA concerns.” (AIPA President, November 2017)

“Qantas stated they were prepared to offer assurances around confining these operations to what they were purported to be.” (AIPA President, yesterday)

and then

“Andrew David advised discussions with Group management had resulted in a decision that, in the interests of the Group, NO assurance would be offered around the Jetconnect or Network Aviation Plans.” (AIPA President, yesterday)


Nowhere did I see that these assurances were ever sought by AIPA - rather, they were offered by QANTAS (and from the tone of AIPA’s emails, regarded with low expectations). The disappointing thing, for anyone who’s still surprised by any of this, is that once again the company appears to have acted with a lack of good faith and integrity.

Thanks for the quotes from the AIPA emails. I wonder if Qantas/AD would agree on the events in the first 2? Who is meant by ‘Qantas’ in the first 1? I’m very surprised AD would agree to given written scope undertakings when Qantas hasn’t done that for many years and when he would obviously know that he isn’t authorised to without permission from above. I do wonder whether there was some misunderstanding about the process and the content of the ;undertakings’ at some stage. Hopefully AD or whoever ain management addresses this at some point.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Directly from the Chief Pilot email 15/12/2017

WA operations

In terms of finding the required B737 capacity, the first thing to do is look at where we have any room to move. In WA we can free up two B737s by moving them from low utilisation intra WA day trips, and redeploying them on higher density, premium routes such as Perth-East Coast. To enable this, Network Aviation is looking to acquire two of Jetstar’s older A320s to supplement their fleet of F100s, which works well as the large corporate clients are asking for single class aircraft of this size to operate into their mine sites. Importantly, this type of operation is much more suited to the Network business model, as opposed to the Qantas model, which is designed around high value assets, being highly utilised on markets that are attractive to our corporate and premium leisure customers.



Tasman operations

We then turn our attention to the ZK registered B737s, which are being significantly underutilised as a result of the Emirates changes across the Tasman. Therefore, to increase this, it has been decided to re-register them in Australia and move them onto our AOC. This allows us to make much better use of their down time by using our mainline crew to operate them on our domestic network. In other words, we’re using a regulatory framework to free up a fleet of underutilised aircraft. As a result, the Jetconnect pilots will operate under our AOC and continue to do what they currently do; which is fly the Tasman while giving us extra capacity that can be flown by our mainline pilots.

[Jimothy]

"which is fly the Tasman while giving us extra capacity that can be flown by our mainline pilots."

Can be or WILL BE?!

[JPJP]

Thanks for the quotes from the AIPA emails. I wonder if Qantas/AD would agree on the events in the first 2? Who is meant by ‘Qantas’ in the first 1? I’m very surprised AD would agree to given written scope undertakings when Qantas hasn’t done that for many years and when he would obviously know that he isn’t authorised to without permission from above. I do wonder whether there was some misunderstanding about the process and the content of the ;undertakings’ at some stage. Hopefully AD or whoever ain management addresses this at some point.

Hmmmm .... interesting. That was a lot of squirming and wriggling. I sense a lower level management ‘pilot’, or a scab-in-training. You also sound suspiciously similar to this guy;

I feel the captains are going to votes yes and the FO's with ambition to eventually work in Mainline will vote no naievely hoping the company will give them a QF seniority #. If ALPA AIPA QF and JC don't want it how can it happen?

Who started squealing in support of the Jetconnect contract in December. You also joined Pprune in December.

Welcome.

[Beer Baron]

RealityCzech,

You are quite right that Network is the bigger threat to us, however that does not mean that the Jet Connect changes are not extremely worrying.

AIPA took Qantas to court a few years back to try and get the Jet Connect flying covered by the Qantas Short Haul EBA. They lost that case 2-1, part of the reasoning of the commissioners was that it was a New Zealand operation, flying New Zealand registered aircraft using New Zealand AOC, hence it was outside the jurisdiction of FWA.

Under this new arrangement an operation that is entirely owned and controlled by an Australian company, flying Australian registered planes, into and out of Australia under an Australian AOC, will be using cheaper foreign labour to circumvent an approved local EA.

It dramatically changes the arrangement and has not been tested in court.

As to why it matters so much. Well where does it stop? Can they fly Aus to Bali, Noumea or Port Moresby? Can they fly the QF A330's? Why not have them operate any aircraft in the Qantas fleet?

When it was a small operation flying a dedicated fleet of just 7 aircraft only across the Tasman there was a natural limit to how much of a threat it could be to Qantas pilots. Now they will be flying up to 70 aircraft! And there is no need for it to necessarily stop there. There is no longer a natural limit to the possible expansion of cheaper offshore labour operating flights that were once crewed by Qantas pilots.

If you can't see the threat in that then you just don't want to.

[RealityCzech]

RealityCzech,

You are quite right that Network is the bigger threat to us, however that does not mean that the Jet Connect changes are not extremely worrying.

AIPA took Qantas to court a few years back to try and get the Jet Connect flying covered by the Qantas Short Haul EBA. They lost that case 2-1, part of the reasoning of the commissioners was that it was a New Zealand operation, flying New Zealand registered aircraft using New Zealand AOC, hence it was outside the jurisdiction of FWA.

Under this new arrangement an operation that is entirely owned and controlled by an Australian company, flying Australian registered planes, into and out of Australia under an Australian AOC, will be using cheaper foreign labour to circumvent an approved local EA.

It dramatically changes the arrangement and has not been tested in court.

As to why it matters so much. Well where does it stop? Can they fly Aus to Bali, Noumea or Port Moresby? Can they fly the QF A330's? Why not have them operate any aircraft in the Qantas fleet?

When it was a small operation flying a dedicated fleet of just 7 aircraft only across the Tasman there was a natural limit to how much of a threat it could be to Qantas pilots. Now they will be flying up to 70 aircraft! And there is no need for it to necessarily stop there. There is no longer a natural limit to the possible expansion of cheaper offshore labour operating flights that were once crewed by Qantas pilots.

If you can't see the threat in that then you just don't want to.

I have a different reading of that case. It was lost because a majority of Fair Work declined to lift the corporate veil of a New Zealand company that employed the NZ pilots. That employment arrangement hasn’t changed and relitigating won’t result in a different outcome.

“As to why it matters so much. Well where does it stop? Can they fly Aus to Bali, Noumea or Port Moresby? Can they fly the QF A330's? Why not have them operate any aircraft in the Qantas fleet”

They can already do those many of those things under the Open Skies agreement. Part of the problem is what they already can and can’t do is really poorly understood by almost everyone involved, so the shadow boxing begins.

Wouldn’t it be ironic if Qantas chose to operate JC pilots domestically, as they legally have been able to do since JC started but have chosen not to, because mainline pilots took industrial action over the possibility of JC pilots operating domestically?

[Jimothy]

Wouldn’t it be ironic if Qantas chose to operate JC pilots domestically, as they legally have been able to do since JC started but have chosen not to, because mainline pilots took industrial action over the possibility of JC pilots operating domestically?

No not ironic - that would just be just typical of the way these people operate.

[busdriver007]

Unreality Czech- You are living in a parallel Universe from the majority and you obviously have not read the transcript of the Fairwork Decision. The New Zealand Corporate veil was well and truly lifted and it was proven that the Jetconnect operation is truly funded from Australia as described by Senior Deputy President Drake as a "sham". I agree that the potential here has similarities to the "Flags of Convenience" arrangements that has taken over our oceans, especially around Australia. Norwegian is the precedent that the world wants to follow but remember they are paying a lot more than the going rate for pilots. I am sure they would like to try to operate domestically and also base a few B787s in Auckland. I feel for any aspiring pilots entering the workforce, they will have a unsettling future and need to have a backup plan! This will not stop anytime soon. The MBA heroes still do not recognise loyalty. As Mr Dixon stated "if I wanted loyalty I would have got a dog!".

[Rated De]

Qantas and others moved quietly to secure 457 Visa, ask your self why?

If they did so to secure supply in a world where supply was previously assumed infinite, is it not interesting that simultaneously the Jetconnect issue and A320 issue arrived almost too close to be coincidence?

Unfortunately as 2011 showed even protected and Fair Work sanctioned action taken by pilots was opposed by the government; The message being clear that withdrawal of labour is not longer possible (unless very small impact)

As pilots expect union leadership to now be ahead of the playbook, it would appear that the 457 announcement caught organised labour off guard.

Qantas pilots are being stalked: stalked by the bogey man of job security and outsourcing. The union is nowhere near dictating terms. The agenda is being driven by IR. Playing catch up is anticipated but highly predictable.

What is not predictable is the individual pilot response. If indeed the intent is to spook the pilot group it appears a success. Jetconnect and other subsidiary airlines already struggle to attract qualified applicants.

However, quiet and dignified passive resistance cannot by modeled. Withdrawal of co-operation, working specifically to the contract, not what the employer EXPECTS is not considered to be likely. Ryan air pilots showed that O'Leary was bluff. It is highly likely that securing a spooked pilot body, fearful of job loss is the intent. Sign them up for a 5 year deal, below real CPI and the unit labo It didn't work for O'Leary, but whether each individual pilot sees through that bluff is a question for themselves.

If it were me sitting in IR shoes, I would anticipate the pilots responding, flights but will continue to be crewed, policy to be carried out and duty to be extended as usual. After all pilots are predictable, that is why they were hired. Quiet personal and legal measures are in the hands of the pilot himself (or herself) and not needing union directive.

Perhaps searching the internet will show that Australia is not exceptional, it is a globalised pilot market like any other.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-01-16/airnorth-cancels-flights-amid-global-pilot-shortage/9332260

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/pilot-shortage-bearskin-air-georgian-super-t-1.4451976

http://www.traveller.com.au/pilot-shortage-600000-new-pilots-needed-over-the-next-20-years--are-pilotless-planes-the-answer-gy1bj9

[RealityCzech]

Unreality Czech- You are living in a parallel Universe from the majority and you obviously have not read the transcript of the Fairwork Decision. The New Zealand Corporate veil was well and truly lifted and it was proven that the Jetconnect operation is truly funded from Australia as described by Senior Deputy President Drake as a "sham".

You really have no idea what are you talking about here, do you? Either you don't understand what it means to lift the corporate veil or you don't understand the judgement. Maybe both.

[Troo believer]

What a ********.

[busdriver007]

You really have no idea what are you talking about here, do you? Either you don't understand what it means to lift the corporate veil or you don't understand the judgement. Maybe both.

I am sorry to tell you I was in the court room when this happened. A bit more insight than you have! I am on a board right now and I know what I am talking about. Do not try and overstate your knowledge in this regard.

[RealityCzech]

Congratulations. Perhaps that time spent on boards and in court rooms meant you were too busy to read paragraphs 59 and 60 of the judgement. (Hint: the parts where the majority specifically declines to lift the corporate veil.)

All three members found that jetconnect was funded by Qantas. That wasn't disputed. This does not amount to lifting the corporate veil, nor did it amount to a 'sham' in the view of the majority. Funding a subsidiary doesn't equate to it being a 'sham' for the purpose of lifting the corporate veil.

[neville_nobody]

It is not a 'real' business though is it?

[RealityCzech]

It is not a 'real' business though is it?

That would depend on how you define a business. Not sure how that's relevant to this discussion in any case.

'A little learning is a dangerous thing', Alexander Pope, 1709.

[busdriver007]

It is not a Business. It does not own an Aeroplane, it does not sell tickets and it does not have a Bank Account. It is a Labour Hire Company set up by Boston Consulting. Obviously Reality Czech is one of their Employees.

[knobbycobby]

FWA challenge lost in 2010 as Jetconnect was a NZ company. NZ registered aircraft. That was the company line too.
Case lost on a jurisdictional basis.
Now QF propose merging Jetconnect into Australian AOC using VH Aussie registered aircraft.
Take it to FWA plain and simple.
Currently Qantas are giving nothing so might as well try for something. Union got a tonne of cash for reasons just like this. Increase the subs if need be and go for it. Grow a pair.
If Qantas are threatening to pull their “game changing “ orders then they must feel they might run into trouble in FWA and hence feel the need to threaten. If they thought AIPA had no chance they wouldn’t threaten taking away some toys. Pilots are pretty dumb collectively when it comes to new toys. So AIPA need to lead strongly on this.
F&$# them. If they were not planning anything sinister then they would give a written assurance outlining what they had “assured” without hesitation.
If you’ve got nothing to hide then......................................................

[V-Jet]

Regardless of your position on the JC/JQ (insert next entity here) competent management would use their time for good and not evil. Messing around with AOC's is an exorbitant time waster when Qf have an appalling fleet and are hell bent on reducing flying. Ever since the APA bid, the effort of management has purely been in trousering as much cash for themselves as possible, with zero effort being put into the long term health of the company. If we had 80 777's or (AND would be even better!) 787's and hadn't wasted that money tilting at windmills around the globe (Red Q, J* HKG, J* Pacific, J* etc, etc) for ZERO return I would be hard pushed to make that accusation. Unfortunately we have all of 2 787's with another massive delivery of 6 arriving shortly. That's 615 787's too late and don't forget the 777 first flew in '94 and is still an obvious world beater. Qantas has incompetent management with completely the wrong (and ultra short term) focus. Trust me, pilots and engineers would be the LAST people to ever complain if the airline was thriving. It isn't and unless things change FAST the only thing left will be a phoenix like array of Chairmans Lounges - with little to drive people to them. It is not up to Court to point out to grossly overpaid manager's of very dubious ethics that their business thinking is self defeating and plainly bizarre! I mean, really - among many other things, what company BORROWS money to pay staff bonuses when Qf is so short of decent aircraft? It is absolutely insane!!

[fearcampaign]

This is a clear F$&* you from senior management who are the highest paid in the world by a crazy margin.
What a snub to the SH pilots.
Still all the text messages begging the guys and gals to crew flights get promptly answered and the record on time performance keeps the managers on $8,000,000 to $25,000,000 salaries with their KPIs set to these metrics. Single engine taxi at a record high.Discretionary fuel at record lows. Jackets on in sweltering heat.
Seems clear that they think the SH pilots are stupid bus drivers and should just roll over.
Perhaps they are right? Talk It tough in the Jet and at the bar. Can’t stand up when you have already rolled over.

[Rated De]

This is a clear F$&* you from senior management who are the highest paid in the world by a crazy margin.
What a snub to the SH pilots.
Still all the text messages begging the guys and gals to crew flights get promptly answered and the record on time performance keeps the managers on $8,000,000 to $25,000,000 salaries with their KPIs set to these metrics. Single engine taxi at a record high.Discretionary fuel at record lows. Jackets on in sweltering heat.
Seems clear that they think the SH pilots are stupid bus drivers and should just roll over.
Perhaps they are right? Talk It tough in the Jet and at the bar. Can’t stand up when you have already rolled over.


There in a few paragraphs is why despite reams of evidence of a shortage world wide, management at Qantas think the pilots are pushovers.



Sadly the union did not see the 457 visa announcment coming
The union is playing for time and you collectively have little.
The union has limited room with the industrial landscape

So how can pilots lever change? It begins and ends at the individual level. Any attempt to step outside 'company policy' will be met with the full force of HR sanction. They wait for this.

To paraphrase (badly) Sun Tsu,
'kill one (not literally) and terrorise 1000 pilots'

It appears from my observation, that Qantas pilots are genuinely surprised by developments. Pilots ought not be, this role is defined by HR/IR. Pilots represent a cost, and labour unit cost is to be reduced.


As organised labour attempts catch up, Qantas seems to be moving ahead. By the time pilots formulate a collective response Jetconnect flying will be online. You can bet all the check airmen are doing just that; training Jetconnect pilots.


Individual pilots may be targeted if they don't comply. Answer the phone, extend when asked, or indeed carry company policy fuel, suffice to say towing the line is expected.



Of course that is our fear, that a company management will target individuals, we have all heard the stories.....I have been party to some interesting developments and high level conversations where behaviours of employees were discussed ( I ought stress not in Australia) HR relies on predictability, so does the whole model of airline operation. No one is pushing commercial negligence, the response to airline management starts and ends with the individual and a thorough understanding of protections afforded in statute.


When pushed to extend for commercial reasons, a Captain refused. He was tired and not inclined to place the safety of passengers and crew, indeed the commercial reputation of his employer in jeopardy. Instead of being thanked for his consideration, he was as he told me 'threatened and not even subtly'. He was told 'that there would be ramifications and that the duty pilot wanted to speak with him'. He politely informed the caller that this was welcomed and he would need a few minutes to arrange the conference call with his legal representatives.

The call never eventuated. He called the duty pilot and also requested to speak to the Chief Pilot. Both refused.

The statute provides protection, perhaps it is time to brush up, because now that Qantas has signaled

This is a clear F$&* you from senior managementThey will not stop. Relying on someone else to do it will not work, Ryanair pilots up this side did it individually and from that the collective response levered the change. Whether it lasts is another question!

[V-Jet]

When pushed to extend for commercial reasons, a Captain refused. He was tired and not inclined to place the safety of passengers and crew, indeed the commercial reputation of his employer in jeopardy. Instead of being thanked for his consideration, he was as he told me 'threatened and not even subtly'. He was told 'that there would be ramifications and that the duty pilot wanted to speak with him'. He politely informed the caller that this was welcomed and he would need a few minutes to arrange the conference call with his legal representatives.

CASA should also be on your side, as should your DAME.

[Rated De]

CASA should also be on your side, as should your DAME.

Precisely!

:ok:

[V-Jet]

That would depend on how you define a business. Not sure how that's relevant to this discussion in any case.

I missed RC’s input today, but I feel drawn to this quote. RC isn’t dearly beloved Elaine is she? I’ve made many complaints and asked serious questions - including directly to HR in ‘disciplinary’ meetings as to what QF’s ‘Mission Statement’ might be. And this is because I have yet to meet anyone with a successful business who cannot say this in one, single sentence. Basic stuff, you know the theme, Apple ‘Think Different’, Audi ‘Vorsprung durch Technik’ McDonalds ‘Best Family Restaurant’ that type of thing.

The best I got from my meetings and discussions on this point was from the secretary of a Manager hauling me in for berating the latest total waste of expenditure - and it was this: ‘Well, I think it’s too hard to say what QF does in one sentence because I think it means a great many different things to many different people’. I laughed in her face and said I really didn’t think she could have said anything better to prove exactly what I was pointing out the failings of Qantas to be.

In hind sight, I am now in awe of RC’s genius response above. ‘That would depend on how you define a business. Not sure how that's relevant to this discussion in any case.’ That is straight Catch - 22. And Catch - 22 is one hell of a Catch!

Maybe Elaine is a reincarnated Milo Minderbinder? Yossarians simple Catch - 22 is a tadge too simple for a tricky Pikey.

Being a simple man, I’ve never understood Milo Minderbinder’s brilliant plan, but this is lifted from someone of better brain:

This is where his cunning little tactics come into play. For instance, he buys eggs from Malta for 7 cents per egg and sells them to the mess hall for 5 cents per egg. Outwardly, this seems stupid. His business is at loss. But no, he earns a significant amount of profit. How?

Here is the answer. This egg business actually involves three places- Sicily, Malta and the mess hall in Pianosa. Sicily is a place where there are plenty of poultry farms and eggs are quite cheap. Milo buys eggs from Sicily at 1 cent apiece. Now Malta is a place where there are no poultry farms and there is quite a demand for eggs. Milo sells the eggs to the local traders in Malta for 4 and a half cents apiece. Then again, he offers to buy them back from the traders at 7 cents apiece, which they readily accept. The people in the mess hall know that he buys eggs from Malta at 7 cents apiece but they are unaware of his prior transactions. They are more than happy to buy the eggs at 5 cents apiece. In the end, Milo spends 1 cent in Sicily and 7 cents in Malta, totalling 8 cents. And he earns 4 and a half cents in Malta and 5 cents in the mess hall, totalling 9 and a half cents. The net profit he gets is one and a half cents for every egg he sells.

He uses similar tactics for his other businesses. And that's how his syndicate works.

[Blitzkrieger]

CASA should also be on your side, as should your DAME.

I know of several pilots in one particularly short staffed airline where leave is seen by management as an inconvenient luxury and where fatigue, fear and stress are at toxic levels, who have visited a DAME to get a break and are granted without question. CASA seem sanguine about it though.

[blow.n.gasket]

I wonder how much of this JetConnect manoeuvring to effectively merge it into Mainline , is due to the new International accounting standards ?
Just off the top of my head - IFRS 3, IFRS 10 ?

[framer]

Wouldn’t have a clue about accounting but I don’t imagine the same accounting changes influenced the Virgin decision to do the same thing five years ago.

[Rated De]

Have Australian Airline management admitted there is a shortage of qualified applicants in quietly lobbying Canberra for 457 skills shortage visas?

[ramble on]

As someone else pointed out - there is no shortage of qualified people.

There is a shortage of people here willing to join the race to the bottom or to work in an airline 'salt mine' environment.

The holes will be filled by 457 visa holders who see it as an easy entry ticket to Australia. Citizenship in 5 years and then off to better pastures.

You sacrifice a lot of quality family time working in aviation over the years. Most kids of pilots want nothing to do with it.

Yes another ramble.

[knobbycobby]

If you can earn $400,000-$700,000 flying in China on a 737 largely tax free at what point do people say f&$#@ this I’m off to work for 5-8 years then chuck in the towel. Commuting contract. Business class confirmed up and back.
Be the same dollars as 20 plus years in QF sitting at the bottom of the pile.
Not to mention getting not getting lied to by management.
It’s just a job now anyway.

[porch monkey]

If you think the lies are any different in China, then you obviously haven’t worked there.......

[Rated De]

If you think the lies are any different in China, then you obviously haven’t worked there.......


The lies are not any different in any industry. Whole departments of lawyers, marketers and HR 'craft' message. The modern corporate is carefully crafted BS factory, where every utterance is weaved with a view to ensuring nothing is enforceable and everything protects the speaker from litigation. This particularly applies to staff communication.

Having said all that, the market is pushing Australian airlines in the direction of the market and they do not like it, so more BS will flow; it is all they know.

At $400k to $700k the BS is a little less difficult to digest! :E

[Rated De]

I know of several pilots in one particularly short staffed airline where leave is seen by management as an inconvenient luxury and where fatigue, fear and stress are at toxic levels, who have visited a DAME to get a break and are granted without question.

That was my point. My friend was harassed and the implied threat was clear, either comply with our request or else. The 'or else' ended up being a hollow threat as pilots are protected by law.

Pilots have control. The company doesn't want an accident, but at the same time are happy to push pilots to 'contractual limits' which conveniently take pilots outside the CAO statutory limits (and the pilot loses protection, assuming the risk, as they 'volunteered')

There is no requirement under most western statute for an employee to disclose the nature and illness to anyone other than their doctor. Ask your Doctor!

[Angle of Attack]

Porch, who cares about the lies but the money is there and my mates are taking it, you pretty much earn triple to quadruple than here in oz so tuff it out for 5 -7 years then retire 10 years early! That my friend is the reality!

[galdian]

Yeah and nothing ever goes wrong - never any medical hassles, never any FOQA report hassles, never any hiccups in the SIM etc.

Just do your guaranteed 7-10 years of keeping your mouth shut as your guaranteed position just ticks over and they keep throwing money at you.

And of course unlike other economies there's no chance the Chinese economic miracle could ever slow down...or worse.

If it's all so bloody easy amazes me there are any pilots left in Oz at all, what are they all stupid or something?

Guaranteed "money for nothing" and early retirement.
Yeah, right. :ugh:

[Aloha_KSA]

Have Australian Airline management admitted there is a shortage of qualified applicants in quietly lobbying Canberra for 457 skills shortage visas?

I have not seen any legislative support for this. I would very much like to see any official discussions, or evidence in support. Perhaps a freedom of information act request is merited?

[Professional Amateur]

https://www.google.com.au/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1F73AM

Bit of an under statement
'This one is a little bit worse than normal, but I don't think it is going to last forever'

[Rated De]

“It just follows the trend of cycles in aviation,” Australian Federation of Air Pilots President David Booth, a Virgin pilot, said of the hiring rush.
“This one is a little bit worse than normal, but I don’t think it is going to last forever.”
Given the vast resources at the disposal of the 'representative' associations, members ought be asking Mr Booth or indeed the AIPA equivalent:

What sort of research and data sets have you consulted in order to form an opinion? Or is the opinion you express simply your opinion?

The shortage is demographic. Mr Booth isn't old enough to have seen any other airline environment where airline pilot supply was presumed unlimited.

With the vast resources as the disposal of 'representative bodies' it is disappointing that they are not sharing the 'research' in order to counter any management induced Fear,Uncertainty or Doubt that will be the weapon of choice as the shortage becomes more self evident. Geez, management went quietly to Oberstleutnant Dutton for pilot 457 visas...


I have not seen any legislative support for this. I would very much like to see any official discussions, or evidence in support. Perhaps a freedom of information act request is merited? I completely agree and wonder what are 'representative bodies' are doing?

[Rabbitwear]

An Emirates , Etihad or Qatar base in Mel Syd BNE Adelaide and Perth would shake up the numbers .

[morno]

Hmmm, I don’t know if it would really. I doubt you’re going to get many if any new pilots at those bases, you’re talking existing pilots at Emirates, which isn’t going to do anything to Australian pilot numbers in the short term.

And to set up a base there would mean loss of control by the Emirates, which I don’t think would go down well with them.

morno

[Rated De]

Hmmm, I don’t know if it would really. I doubt you’re going to get many if any new pilots at those bases, you’re talking existing pilots at Emirates, which isn’t going to do anything to Australian pilot numbers in the short term.

The shortage is not cyclical. Forward thinking airlines may recognise pilots really are a necessary ingredient in Operating Revenue: No Pilots equal little Operational Revenue.

Inside corporations (including airlines) HR/IR occupy a lot of space, consume a lot of head count and remain a substantial cost centre.

A forward thinking airline may realise they have cut the wrong areas (operational staff) and address the shortage by directing resources, including bases at Operational areas.

[CurtainTwitcher]

An Emirates , Etihad or Qatar base in Mel Syd BNE Adelaide and Perth would shake up the numbers .
Pisses off existing crew already stuck in ME.

More importantly, there is no return of cash back into their own economies. This is a crucial aspect. In my way of thinking DXB is a giant real estate play, it's main export is itself. The more expat's cash it can capture in the place, the better as it generates demand for goods and services, and this enhances its value as tourist destination in it's own right. It is a closed loop system.

Having crew based outside DXB represents cash haemorrhaging from the system, rather than just the leak of savings as expat's move on elsewhere.

[CurtainTwitcher]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2182613/ryanair-reveals-ten-day-compensation-scheme-after-axed-flights/

FARE DUES Ryanair reveals ten day compensation scheme after axed flights caused travel chaos last year
Thousands of passengers were hit in the pocket when the airline cancelled hundreds of flights in Scotland

THOUSANDS of passengers were hit in the pocket when Ryanair axed hundreds of flights in Scotland last year.

Now chiefs have vowed to settle compensation claims within ten days and look at bringing in automatic payments.

But Alex Neill, of consumer mag Which?, warns the proof will be in the budget airline’s actions.

RYANAIR has launched its latest “Always Getting Better” campaign and pledged to look at automatic compensation for fliers hit by delays and cancellations.

The airline is now into its fourth year of the drive — which may surprise its customers.

So forgive me for being a little sceptical about whether a vow to look at something is anything more than PR puff.

To people dealing with the budget carrier recently, it has felt more like things are “Always Getting Worse”.

Take last year. Ryanair launched its 2017 AGB customer service plan with an equally promising sounding set of plans.

There was also an assurance passengers would have the “best choice of destinations with the most on-time flights and a fantastic on-board experience, as we grow our fleet, traffic and routes”.

No doubt some of those pledges were fulfilled.

But for hundreds of thousands of people, 2017 was about axed flights and appalling customer service as chief Michael O’Leary slashed routes to deal with a pilot shortage.

It included all trips from Glasgow and Edinburgh to London.

For many this was much more than a missed business trip or city break.

In some cases it meant the heartache of plans to spend Christmas with loved ones abandoned, or the stress of trying to find a way to fly an entire wedding party thousands of miles at the last minute.

A lot of people were left hundreds of pounds out of pocket as they scrambled to make alternative travel arrangements.

To make matters worse, Ryanair initially responded by playing fast and loose with people’s rights.

It failed to share proper advice and made it difficult to arrange alternative flights or claim compensation.

Ryanair’s behaviour during the fiasco prompted the Civil Aviation Authority to take enforcement action against the firm for “persistently misleading” customers.

So when Ryanair makes grand promises to its passengers, it would be wise to wait to see some action to go with the carefully crafted words.

We’ll be keeping a close eye on the promise of a dedicated team processing valid compensation claims within ten days.

And if the airline does go further and brings in automatic compensation, it will be a market leading move, which we’ll applaud — while urging the rest of the industry to follow suit.

The case for doing so is clear. According to Which? analysis of CAA data, more than 1,200 flights to or from Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen were delayed by at least three hours in 2016-17.

That means thousands of Scots were entitled to claim between £220 and £530, depending on the length of the delay.

But how many of us can take the time and effort to fill out complicated forms then wait weeks to find out if we’ll get what we’re owed?

Not enough — or at least that’s the calculation the airlines make.

That’s why we’re calling on all airlines to bring in automatic compensation for passengers — taking the hassle out of claiming what they’re entitled to.

Perhaps then long-suffering customers of Ryanair and all airlines will finally feel like things really are “Always Getting Better”.

The airline insisted that “Always Getting Better” has delivered a string of improvements in the past four years.

And Ryanair’s Kenny Jacobs said the firm run by Micheal O’Leary will deliver more “real” changes in 2018.

[OnceBitten]

Pisses off existing crew already stuck in ME.

More importantly, there is no return of cash back into their own economies. This is a crucial aspect. In my way of thinking DXB is a giant real estate play, it's main export is itself. The more expat's cash it can capture in the place, the better as it generates demand for goods and services, and this enhances its value as tourist destination in it's own right. It is a closed loop system.

Having crew based outside DXB represents cash haemorrhaging from the system, rather than just the leak of savings as expat's move on elsewhere.
CurtainTwitcher is offline

The crux of it is the above mentioned Airlines don't have to deal with the reality of Industrial Laws in other Lands when keeping the minions in the ME and therefor basing will never happen.

[Rabbitwear]

Not operating aircraft due lack of crew costs way more than Basings, Jetconnect Qantas type setup ,so not desirable for mainliners to come home unless super keen!

[DeltaT]

Ask for the pass rates of their current interviewing, I bet that tells a different story of how desperate they are for pilots.

Psychometric Testing, Sim Rides etc, it is all about culling from the masses of the over ubnudant labour supply, and called another name of "airline standards".
So anyone heard of airlines dropping ANY of those tests in interview rounds lately that they normally do?...no.

[framer]

Hmmm, I have sat on a few interview panels.
I can just imagine the conversation at the meeting after an interview round;
“ we’re finding it a bit hard to recruit the numbers we want, I suggest we drop the standard required in the sim or our psychometric testing”..........stunned silence.......” Bryan....we can’t officially drop any of those things without being seen to step away from safety as our highest priority, feel free to have a chat with the recruitment sim pilots and suggest same but I think you will be met with rather stiff resistance.”....... “ OK just a thought”.

[DeltaT]

In perspective then...Do you know if Surgeons have to sit another operation test before being employed by a Hospital to prove they can do the job?
Do Lawyers do a practise court session for their prospective employer?, does any other profession sit yet another test of their trained skills after being qualified or licensed in the name of safety?
Don't get my wrong, I understand not employing just anyone deemed qualified, just how they go about it in the name of so called standards.
Perhaps you should go and ask todays old timer Captains of the big jets the interview process they went through to get hired, 'back in the day', so don't tell me it's all about safety. ...Coporate brainwashing.
I will say it again, the so called culling process has been given the misnomer of being 'standards' which is not what it really is. The only true standard a airline puts in place is the minimum experience levels to apply for the job!

[Keg]

What a genius. Let’s not look at a pilot’s history or current capability. Let’s just look at whether they hold a piece of paper. Bonuses all round. Sorry Delta T but you’re a long way wide of the mark.

A surgeon’s ihstory snd demonstrated standards are generally well known in the industry. A lawyer can generally point to significant case work that they’ve done and it’s easily (and quickly) verifiable. (Let’s also leave aside the different structural hoops that people in those industries jump through before they’re offered a job). For a pilot we do NOT generally know their history or current capability. We can infer some things from the airline an applicant comes from but that’s about it- an inference. So a one hour sim is a pretty quick and cheap way to back up the piece of paper and ensure that the candidate has the foundational level of skills upon which they can be further trained.

Interestingly I’ve previously heard that line of argument about lawyers, surgeons and pilots bandied around the place. Normally it’s by people who understand very little about all three professions. No prizes for guessing what industry those people are normally in.


So anyone heard of airlines dropping ANY of those tests in interview rounds lately that they normally do?...no.

You expect airlines to advertise this? Having worked with people that have recruited pilots for Ansett, AirNZ, Qantas and Jetstar I can guarantee you that at certain times standards have been adjusted downward to ensure that supply continues.

[Jeps]

As someone who’s partner is in the legal profession I concur with Keg. That being said there’s still fairly significant issues and challenges when recruiting a new lawyer. They would probably benefit greatly from a behavioral style interview after all the relevant information had been checked. For anyone that’s spent time around lawyers, they can be an odd bunch.....much like us!

[Rated De]

“ we’re finding it a bit hard to recruit the numbers we want, I suggest we drop the standard required in the sim or our psychometric testing”..........stunned silence.......” Bryan....we can’t officially drop any of those things without being seen to step away from safety as our highest priority, feel free to have a chat with the recruitment sim pilots and suggest same but I think you will be met with rather stiff resistance.”....... “ OK just a thought”.

A hypothetical of course...
A 457 visa applicant exceeding the 'minimum' standard presents an impeccable log book, which duly impresses the HR recruiter. Hire this person they cry..

Meanwhile the pilot 'token representative' takes a little time to flick through the log book.

Just one question dear applicant, G-BOAF you stated you flew that? Yes Sir I did is the polished reply.

So how many hours on the Concorde have you?

[framer]

I have seen in the past traits that the non pilots on a recruitment board thought were a bonus were viewed as a potential problem by the pilots on the recruitment board.
Not surprising really.

[Dark Knight]

However, never forget Management attitudes nor where they see their role.

The following illustrates clearly Management interest in the bottom line and I concur, as above, standards are, have been, will be adjusted in accordance with the Laws of Supply and Demand.

Qantas and the real lessons of QF32 and the rebuilt A380
Ben Sandilands Editor of Plane Talking

Amid the extensive, and accurate, reporting of the return to flight of the first Qantas A380, Nancy-Bird Walton, that was severely damaged by an engine disintegration operating QF32 on 4 November 2010 there is one sharp lesson for all airlines when it comes to maintenance and ‘care’.

And that isn’t the one that managements and unions argue about, which is outsourcing.

It is the lesson that says ‘keep in control and keep informed.’

In the considerable heat of events after the serious incident on 4 November 2010, which lead to Qantas undoubtedly correctly grounding its A380 fleet, Qantas CEO Alan Joyce made a number of statements which were repeated in the legal documentation that preceded a settlement of its claims against the engine maker Rolls-Royce.

Those claims were inter alia that Rolls-Royce did not tell Qantas about certain matters related to the upgrading or modification of the Trent 900 series engines fitted to its A380s, leaving it in the dark about certain issues that could affect its performance, and depriving it of relevant knowledge affecting its operations and also depriving it of information which had it possessed would have caused Qantas to seek prompt modification of its engines and been used by Qantas to assess whether or not to change the way it was using the engines.

Those claims were also correct, and acknowledged as correct by Rolls-Royce, in a process that was at times incredibly reluctant and unwilling from the perspective of those in Qantas and in its official guidance to media and investors.

It is reasonable to conclude that the manufacturing defect which directly caused the QF32 disintegration and inflight crisis would most likely have been rectified before the failure occurred in-flight had Qantas known in precise detail what Rolls-Royce was on about in its modifications of the engines.
But all of this leads to another matter.

Whatever the merits of outsourcing anything more complex or costly than regular operational or line maintenance of aircraft or engines, the QF32 incident ought to end forever the accountants dream that out of sight power-by-the-hour arrangements to let someone else, even the engine maker, assume responsibility for ‘total care’, is smart, when in reality it is ‘total stupidity’.

With the benefit of hindsight after what is probably the world’s most expensive repair of an airliner after an in-flight incident that scared the hell out of everyone, outsourcing ‘total care’ without retaining control and knowledge is fraught with brand threatening risks.

The foolish dumbing down of the airline game into ‘virtual airlines’, where everything that used to be integral to an airline’s performance, reputation and brand, gets shunted off to a shed somewhere run by whomever tenders the cheapest price, is a nasty, dangerous piece of work.

And, to be fair to some of the proponents of virtual airlines, that is not what they envisaged either. But the virtuality argument took on a life of its own once it escaped into the wild, and in the process, a great deal of sensible and rational work as to how to successfully run airlines in a world flying into open skies and fiercer competition was lost.

The magic combination of greed and stupidity came into play, especially in much of what passes for supposedly robust financial analysis of airline competition.

QF32 ought to be remembered for being a very loud wake-up call for airlines and air safety regulators worldwide. Airlines can’t afford to be inefficient. But they can’t afford to turn into killers either. In the world beyond Qantas we can find too many instances of airlines where no responsibility, no control, and indeed, no clue seems to summarise the parameters of managements that emerge from business school with a near total contempt for technical or specialised knowledge, and a focus on short term gain that is totally at odds with any industry in which skills have to valued, nurtured, recruited, retained and rewarded.

Qantas can, and no doubt will, continue to outsource just about everything that moves in order to save money. But it must not outsource its diligence, its attentions, and its knowledge of precisely what the engine maker, or airframe maker, or systems maker, is up to for a single minute, because their priorities are not the priorities of Qantas.

At the end of the day, whether it ends in a fireball and 469 dead passengers and crew, and a dead brand, or a superb recovery from a ‘tricky situation’, no airline, Qantas included, can outsource its responsibilities.

[Dark Knight]

A comment on the above:

`The collective view about the airline as it is currently managed oscillates between despair, disbelief and ribaldry.

The current CEO pays lip service, as do all those cloned from the same DNA, to service and safety, but is just as obsessed by the bottom line as are his peers.

He has also done something which would have been anathema to his predecessors, and that is to politicise the airline in pursuit of his personal agenda.

This included the printed encouragement on Qantas’s Boarding Passes for the bearer to vote in favour of same sex marriage and the display of a modified boxing kangaroo waving the rainbow flag on the vertical stabiliser of one of the A330’s

One paragraph within Sandiland’s piece needs to be framed and displayed on the trophy walls of all these plonkers.

QF32 ought to be remembered for being a very loud wake-up call for airlines and air safety regulators world wide. Airlines can’t afford to be inefficient. But they can’t afford to turn into killers either. In the world beyond Qantas we can find too many instances of airlines where no responsibility, no control, and indeed, no clue seems to summarise the parameters of managements that emerge from business school with a near total contempt for technical or specialised knowledge, and a focus on short term gain that is totally at odds with any industry in which skills have to valued, nurtured, recruited, retained and rewarded.

Sandilands is right in saying this myopia simply invites the occurrence of other QF 32.

Bus travel has much to commend it.'

[Rated De]

The current CEO pays lip service, as do all those cloned from the same DNA, to service and safety, but is just as obsessed by the bottom line as are his peers

When what is bolted under the wing is outsourced 'power by the hour' and a CEO decries that decision as cost reducing and therefore justified by bottom line hysterics, I have but one question for the CEO.

Who had their logo and brand trashed on the day?

Fortunately no one was killed as no contract remedy recovered brand damage nor the lost souls.

They view pilots and the skill set as a labour unit cost, to be pushed and reduced at all costs

[morno]

I don’t think dropping a sim check is good for anyone.

I’ve worked for an airline where they didn’t bother with a sim check. Low and behold, they had several ‘pilots’ who were very far from desirable, and definitely didn’t match up to the experience presented in their resumes and logbooks.

On the other hand, I remember doing a sim check for a new job with another potential candidate (he was supposedly a captain from the sub-continent), and it became very obvious that either he was a very deficient captain, or he wasn’t indeed a captain at all! I think the latter is the more likely scenario.

Had there been no sim check, this individual could potentially have gone online flying around the paying public without one ounce of experience and qualifications to do it safely.

Keep the sim check I say.

morno

["Littlebird"]

I don’t think dropping a sim check is good for anyone.

I’ve worked for an airline where they didn’t bother with a sim check. Low and behold, they had several ‘pilots’ who were very far from desirable, and definitely didn’t match up to the experience presented in their resumes and logbooks.

On the other hand, I remember doing a sim check for a new job with another potential candidate (he was supposedly a captain from the sub-continent), and it became very obvious that either he was a very deficient captain, or he wasn’t indeed a captain at all! I think the latter is the more likely scenario.

Had there been no sim check, this individual could potentially have gone online flying around the paying public without one ounce of experience and qualifications to do it safely.

Keep the sim check I say.

morno

I believe the solution is not black or white. Perhaps if the applicant comes from a major carrier with a check and training system (especially from the same country) then a sim assessment might not be necessary. At the end of the day it's up to the airline as to what each applicant is required to demonstrate and what they need to see. Not fool proof, although overall I've seen it work well.
L.B

[DeltaT]

So a one hour sim is a pretty quick and cheap way to back up the piece of paper and ensure that the candidate has the foundational level of skills upon which they can be further trained.


Explain the logic behind sim testing a prior Airbus pilot in a 737 classic sim that requires a more analogue type instrument scan?

I have seen in the past traits that the non pilots on a recruitment board thought were a bonus were viewed as a potential problem by the pilots on the recruitment board.

Yup, can't have new pilots with more variety of skills and knowledge than the pilot in the left seat.:rolleyes:

I don’t think dropping a sim check is good for anyone.
Yet air ambulance operators don't bother. Are they unsafe?
Safety is not the utmost priority of an Airline, it's safety to a price.

[Keg]

Explain the logic behind sim testing a prior Airbus pilot in a 737 classic sim that requires a more analogue type instrument scan?


If an Airbus pilot can’t do a sim in a 744 or 737 then they’re not a very good pilot and I’d question their capability as an Airbus pilot too. The same applies the other way too. It’s about rate of learning. It’s about trainability. It’s about core skills.

However let me put it another way, if it’s not needed then why do people still fail it as not meeting a minimum standard? I’ll answer that for you. They fail it for the same reason that lots of doctors don’t actually become surgeons, lots of law graduates don’t actually become lawyers or barristers or judges.



Yet air ambulance operators don't bother. Are they unsafe?.

Are you seriously suggesting that Air Ambulance don’t do a flying assessment of their employees before confirming their employment?

[romeocharlie]

If an Airbus pilot can’t do a sim in a 744 or 737 then they’re not a very good pilot and I’d question their capability as an Airbus pilot too. The same applies the other way too. It’s about rate of learning. It’s about trainability. It’s about core skills.

However let me put it another way, if it’s not needed then why do people still fail it as not meeting a minimum standard? I’ll answer that for you. They fail it for the same reason that lots of doctors don’t actually become surgeons, lots of law graduates don’t actually become lawyers or barristers or judges.



Are you seriously suggesting that Air Ambulance don’t do a flying assessment of their employees before confirming their employment?

This was brought up in a different thread, and it was pointed out that while an Airbus pilot might struggle, how is that any different from someone flying a SAAB or a Titan? As Keg has pointed out, the assessment standard to reach is the same for everyone.

[morno]

Yet air ambulance operators don't bother. Are they unsafe?

I certainly did a flight check before getting a job with an aeromed operator.

[neville_nobody]

how is that any different from someone flying a SAAB or a Titan? As Keg has pointed out, the assessment standard to reach is the same for everyone

SAAB and Titans have conventional flight controls, Airbus does not.

[benttrees]

Have you flown an Airbus Neville ?

[Beer Baron]

SAAB and Titans have conventional flight controls, Airbus does not.
Well if the candidate is likely to struggle with conventional flight controls then I wouldn’t have much faith in them flying an Airbus in Direct Law with manual thrust. We’ve seen how those events can end up.

[Blitzkrieger]

I’ve been watching with extreme interest, if somewhat distantly, the evolution of certain agreement between the pilots and a contractor to our favourite whipping boy airline and based on what I hear I can only conclude that there is absolutely no pilot shortage! Hoorah!!

Most noteworthy during these negotiations is the appalling lack of integrity from, not only the company, but one of the bargaining bodies too; everyone has a price don’t they!

In a time when a severe exodus in underway and morale is hazardously low, all that is being offered is the same old “we can’t afford to pay you what you’re worth” garbage. The management know that all they have to do is hide behind the Maginot line until the pilots become sick of the uncertainty and fold; A war of attrition of the highest order helped along by a body hell bent on self advancement and unhindered by those who stand by and let the persecution play out. What is most disappointing is that the true role of negotiator has fallen to a small group of individuals who have stood up to represent those pilots who distrust and despise corporate unionism. The ones I speak of know who they are but more importantly, so does ever single pilot. Strength, integrity and the ability to see BS for BS come without a fee, not a single cent! It is a sense of right and wrong that drives these people, not some out of sessions deal.

This agreement is one of many currently undergoing renewal and they are all following the same draconian path. My observations have lead me to surmise that there are a couple of options open to us in Australia at present regarding the pilot shortage. (A) Either there is simply no pilot shortage, or (B)employers of pilots and/or their behemoth benefactors are simply willing to expose the travelling public to the perfect storm of exhausted, demoralized, stressed, distracted, overworked pilots to the ever increasing possibility of adevastating accident. Yes I take it personally because these bastards sit in their boardrooms earning their exorbitant salaries fully aware of the pressure they create by denying decent pay and conditions. They deny the organics of economics, safe in the knowledge that if one of my colleagues has a bad day, the money is already in the bank.

The discontent and feeling of worthlessness is sinking in very fast now and the airlines have very limited time to reverse those sentiments. They should be coming with their best deal today, not something they think will creep over the line, because by year send it could be too late.

Fly safe and learn to say “NO”!

[Oriana]

Explain the logic behind sim testing a prior Airbus pilot in a 737 classic sim that requires a more analogue type instrument scan?


Still T Scan on glass.

[fdr]

An assessment of a candidate is looking at basic skills, SA, and the ability to improve where there is an obvious issue. To transition from a B7XX to an A3XX takes a short discussion on what the SSC is doing, and if the auto thrust is to be used, which would be slightly unfair, then how that functions. Otherwise, they all fly the same. They also fly more or less like a Cessna 310. They are vastly less interesting than any Lear, particularly 24's, they rotate without the wackiness of a Westwind. The instruments are more or less the same. This also applies for an MD11, B717, MD80, FK100, etc. They are all better than link trainers, and that is still a reasonable method of assessing whether a person can comprehend instrument displays and manipulate a control system to achieve a semblance of the desired outcome, and whether basic CRM skills exist. If you happen to know the Smiths or Honeywell FMC, FMGCS, FCP etc, then all the better, but it is not the primary point of interest. Having said all that, transitioning routinely from a high inertia aircraft B777/B747/A340 etc back to low inertia plane, A320/B737 does end up with a period of learning on glideslope maintenance, which is still not very long to sort out

Good luck with whatever you drive. In the end it is not what you are flying, or even where you go, it is who you are with that is memorable.

[Rabbitwear]

Australian Pilots already have the highest wages compared to most , it’s the Tax office that deprives you of around half leaving you in so called poverty !

[Icarus2001]

Australian Pilots already have the highest wages compared to most ,

Have you got a source or some data to back up that claim?

[Capn Bloggs]

Still T Scan on glass.
Yes, the Boeing man said that during my CBT. I laughed (cried). He was, in a way, correct. Yes, it does have an ASI, and it does have an altimeter but...

[JPJP]

Have you got a source or some data to back up that claim?

You’re correct to be a little suspicious over his claim. Using Kegs recent data on Qantas compensation, an A380 Captain is paid less than a 737 Captain at one of the big four carriers in the U.S. When taxation is brought into the equation, the disparity is even greater.

I take no pleasure in these metrics. The little Irishman is getting away with murder.

[Rated De]

Eyeing the enormous demand for air travel and pilots coming from Asia, Mr Joyce announced that Qantas would open its own pilot academy in 2019, which it hoped would become the biggest in the southern hemisphere, capable of producing 500 pilots a year.
"To do it, we’ll partner with a leading education provider, and we’ll engage with federal, state and territory governments who want to attract a facility of this calibre," Mr Joyce said.



So somehow Strayan exceptionalism does not stop Australia being part of the global shortage...

[Captain Dart]

QANTAS already has a pilot training academy. It is called Cathay Pacific Airways Limited.

[CurtainTwitcher]

Air Pocket: Why Jet Airways’ pilot loss could mean actual losses

Shortage of captains to hit overseas flights it relies on for revenue, profit; OTP too affected
Mumbai | Published: February 23, 2018 5:27 AM

http://images.financialexpress.com/2018/02/jet-airways-reu-1.jpg
A pilot at Jet said on condition of anonymity that the functioning of the airline had changed with sudden changes being introduced. (Reuters)

With chances of nearly 50 senior pilots moving out of Jet Airways, the airline could be in trouble as it faces a shortage of captains. Every flight must have at least one captain and Jet’s present pool of pilots includes about 831 captains, of whom only about 330 fly wide-bodied aircraft. It is critical for the carrier to have captains to fly wide-bodied aircraft as it is hugely dependent on its overseas operations for revenues and profits. Even before this, Jet was already having trouble with first officers over pay cuts. The pilot count at about 1,734 today (according to industry sources, as the airline does not disclose these numbers) is down from about 2,000 in July last year, and falling. FE has learnt that the majority of the 50 senior pilots is headed to Vistara, the Tata-Singapore Airlines joint venture, which is in expansion mode.The trouble between junior pilots and the management started in July last year after the management wrote to them suggesting they either take a 30-50% cut in their salaries or stipend or leave. The move followed excess hiring of about 200 first officers on an inaccurate demand forecasting by its team. This was reported by the media at the time.

A pilot at Jet said on condition of anonymity that the functioning of the airline had changed with sudden changes being introduced. “They are also a breach of the contract that was entered into by the pilots and the airline,” the pilot added. He said today pilots do not want to fly after their duty hours if there is a shortage of hands as was the case earlier. Jet declined to comment for the story. On an investor call earlier this month, Jet CFO Amit Agarwal said the airline was taking a series of steps to improve its on-time performance (OTP). Agarwal said the OTP had improved in January and February compared with that in the December quarter and that this is the ongoing focus area for the airline.

In response of FE’s query to Vistara on the subject, the airline said, “As we continue to scale up our business and operations, it is only natural for us to hire more talent, including cockpit crew. As every other airline, most applications for technical positions, such as that for pilots, come to us from within the industry. We’re glad that in a short span of three years, our success has drawn great interest from people within and outside the aviation ecosystem, helping us become an employer of choice.”
The non-cooperative stance of several pilots is impacting the on-time performance of Jet.

“An airline running out of pilot flying hours is symptomatic of deep trouble within that airline and there is widespread discontent among Jet pilots and we might see some who will look at opportunities with other domestic carriers,” said an airline executive not wanting to be named. In aviation industry parlance, pilot shortage is meant to indicate an airline not having pilots with adequate flying hours available to continue flying. In the early 2000s, the entire aviation industry had struggled with pilot shortage due to the flying hour restriction. Regulations today mandate that a pilot can fly for only 1,000 hours in every consecutive 365 days.

Besides, absenteeism, medical reasons can also lead to pilots not being able to fly. This makes rostering a challenge. Any incorrect rostering can create an issue as pilots are barred from flying more than 8 hours per day, more than 35 hours in seven days and more than 125 hours in 30 consecutive days, besides the yearly flying hours restriction.What’s even more worrying is that Jet seems to have become the hunting ground for talent. While the private sector had in its initial years poached talent from Air India, and later tapped talent from a sinking Kingfisher Airlines, today they find the disgruntled pilots at Jet an ideal catch. And they are going after senior talent, mostly captains.

Jet had 903 first officers (as on January 1, 2018). What’s more, Jet flies a range of aircraft — wide-bodied A350s and Boeing-777s, besides Boeing-737s and ATRs — and, therefore, its pilot requirements are quite different from peers, who mostly fly one type of aircraft. For instance, wide-bodied aircraft require more pilots per aircraft than single-aisle aircraft. Besides, a pilot of one type of aircraft cannot always be used to fly another type of aircraft.

That Jet flies much more overseas than any other airline (read wide-bodied aircraft), makes it even more vulnerable to poaching, as such talent is sought after by peers looking to expand their overseas operations. Jet had a share of 44% in international flights by Indian carriers in FY17 (more recent data was not available), with Air India commanding a share of 32%, followed by IndiGo and SpiceJet at 14% and 10%, respectively.

More importantly, Jet is hugely dependant on its overseas operations for both revenues and traffic. In January, for instance, it flew 23,144 hours (52.4%) on international routes against 21,007 hours (47.6%) on domestic routes. In contrast, domestic market leader IndiGo flew 53,161 hours (87.3%) on domestic routes against only 7,761 hours (22.7%) on international routes. Given that international flights require a larger allocation of crew per aircraft than a domestic flight, Jet’s pilot strength suddenly starts to look very different vis-a-vis competition.

Jet is believed to have close to 1,734 pilots to service about 650 flights per day using 119 aircraft. In contrast, IndiGo has 2,300 pilots on its rolls for a peak of 1,020 flights using 153 aircraft. Even without considering the higher allocation of manpower for international flights, Jet’s pilots per aircraft ratio at over 14 seems less comfortable than IndiGo’s over 15. After the excessive hiring in early 2017, Jet seems to have swung sharply in the other direction, and this is telling. Brokerage Credit Suisse in a report on the aviation sector points out that Jet’s employee benefit expenses are sharply higher than those of IndiGo and SpiceJet. Jet’s employee expenses to revenues in Q3-FY18 stood at 12% versus 9.9% for IndiGo.

The Jet management seems conscious of this and has been taking steps to address it. But pilots are upset because its move to crimp costs is impacting pilot welfare schemes and contracts of some pilots. The cost-cutting is also translating into pruning of support staff strength, like engineers at some locations, which is also a concern for pilots. Jet saw its employee expenses rise by 5.3% in Q3FY18 while operating revenue grew 10.2%. In contrast, employee costs for IndiGo grew 16.4% with operating revenue growth of 23.9%.

The Naresh Goyal-promoted airline continues to find itself at the bottom of the pack with an OTP of 62.4% in January. Market leader IndiGo’s OTP was 75.4%, followed closely by SpiceJet at 74.4%, according to Directorate General of Civil Aviation data. In 2014, there were reports that Jet and Etihad had tried to poach at least 140 Air India pilots and the government was mulling putting mechanisms in place to curb the practice. Is Jet at the receiving end today?

Air Pocket: Why Jet Airways' pilot loss could mean actual losses - The Financial Express (http://www.financialexpress.com/infrastructure/airlines-aviation/air-pocket-why-jet-airways-pilot-loss-could-mean-actual-losses/1076241/)

[Rated De]

“An airline running out of pilot flying hours is symptomatic of deep trouble within that airline and there is widespread discontent among Jet pilots and we might see some who will look at opportunities with other domestic carriers,” said an airline executive not wanting to be named. In aviation industry parlance, pilot shortage is meant to indicate an airline not having pilots with adequate flying hours available to continue flying. In the early 2000s, the entire aviation industry had struggled with pilot shortage due to the flying hour restriction. Regulations today mandate that a pilot can fly for only 1,000 hours in every consecutive 365 days.


How about instead of endless wars against staff airlines accept the new paradigm; respect for a pilot as part of the revenue generation of an airline, a vital component at that...

Nah, push the regulator, defer CAO 48.1, and extend and pretend until revenue is non existent!


How about clear out a floor or two at Waterside or Coward street of HR?

[Troo believer]

You mean the corporate fascists.

[framer]

How about clear out a floor or two at Waterside or Coward street of HR?
There is no way flights would get safely to destination if you did that, let alone on time, keep it realistic please.

[Fjholden]

There is no way flights would get safely to destination if you did that, let alone on time, keep it realistic please.

I don't know, there's no one at Coward St on the weekend and all those flights some how seem to depart...

[Capn Bloggs]

Waterside
Please explain? Just a lat/long will do! I'll work out the rest.

[galdian]

Just regards the article on Jet it's only 6 months ago that they finalised cancellation of most/many expat contracts, 3 weeks ago they bulk emailed most - but not all - expats to see who would like to return....but the pattern offered was now 8/2 not 6/2, no idea how positive or otherwise the response was to Jet's email.

The other interesting thing which could really shake up India - to date there's been a mandate by DGCA, on behalf of airlines in India, that pilots have a "no compete" restriction for 12 months - unless a particular airline chose to waive it - which is against labor laws, now being challenged in the High Court and a decision was hoped for last Thursday, no idea if handed down or delayed etc.

The pilot group was submitting a reduction to 90 days - if that comes to pass there should be a lot of movement and upheaval in a short period of time.

Back to Jet - it does appear they have a large disconnect with their pilot group, if they're trying to fix it it certainly isn't with engagement at the present time.

Cheers.

[mrdeux]

I thought "a large disconnect with the pilot group" what was management desired.

[atpcliff]

Ask for the pass rates of their current interviewing, I bet that tells a different story of how desperate they are for pilots.

Psychometric Testing, Sim Rides etc, it is all about culling from the masses of the over ubnudant labour supply, and called another name of "airline standards".
So anyone heard of airlines dropping ANY of those tests in interview rounds lately that they normally do?...no.

At my airline, they dropped the sim eval some years prior to 2010.
We had a difficult online test when they started hiring again in 2010. After about 3 years, they changed the test to the standard US ATP test, which was much easier. Now, they have dropped the test completely. We have lowered our mins four times since 2010, and can only drop it a bit more until we are at the legal mins (ATP). Our mins were 4000 Fixed Wing, and 1000 PIC Jet. Now were are at 2000 TotalTime, 500 Turbine (no PIC, no jet required), or military or 141 Flight School (like Embry Riddle, UND, etc.) with an ATP.

We used to hire someone with one of these:
No turbine. No PIC. No international experience. Never flown above 18,000'. Now we are hiring candidates with all four of the above situations.

Several US airlines, including UPS and UAL, have dropped their four year degree requirements.

The Pilot Shortage tsunami continues to worsen in the US.

[Toruk Macto]

Extra %20 of total package to be paid up front, over the top of any sign on bonus, that will be fully refunded after contract if the airline meets all its obligations .

[Seagull201]

Looking at the SQ website, it appears they're recruiting Second Officers for their fleet, all nationalities.

Check the SQ website for their requirements, minimum frozen ATPL with passes in Maths/Physics/English.

AU license holders have been successful with gaining SQ S/O employment in the past.

It's been many years since i remember SQ advertising for S/O, all nationalities.

[stormfury]

Looks like they’ve dropped their DEFO minimums too, interesting times ahead.

Cost of living in SG is cheaper, marginally, than HK.

If their training department is anything like their sommelier training (35:20) could be a good option.
(natgeotv.com/asia/inside-singapore-airlines)

[Seagull201]

Just a little off track with this post, i had a look at some of the you tube videos, showing the Rex academy and their graduates, Jetstar cadet F/O's, also the two media video clips on the pilot shortage situation,
I'm absolutely stunned-shocked, when i see people no more than 19, 20, 21 or 22, flying as an F/O on a saab 340, A320, and a S/O on the 787.
Rex could have introduced a level 2 entry for new F/O's,for people that have a frozen ATPL, same as what QF is doing, but they don't want to.

These young people have worked hard and are very fortunate to be in the right seat, compared to other people, who are grinding it out in general aviation, until they can qualify to fill an application form and have a look at.
Apart from that, someone that's in their early 20's as an F/O, stands to pocket at least 3 million dollars net, if they work only 25 to 30 years.
it's better than winning the lottery.
Nothing more i can say.

I didn't know that so many different video clips existed on google/you tube, Rex academy, Jetstar cadets, Virgin cadets, it's interesting viewing.
I suppose that's the direction things are heading in the future, with these cadet academy's and there's more to come with the QF academy.

Apart from that, there's many turbine jobs going for high hour individuals and all grades of instructors, they all pay decent money.

That's life.

[Rated De]

https://caeparcaviation.com/jobs/?position=first-officer&location=middle-east&aircraft=b777-300

Is this a recent development? Emirates using a contract agency?

If so an interesting cognitive challenge for those pilot shortage deniers! :=

[Troo believer]

https://caeparcaviation.com/jobs/20984-tr-and-ntr-b777-captain/
Both Captains and F/Os.

[frozen man]

Waterside. BA headquarters

[donpizmeov]

EK is needing somewhere between 800 and 900 pilots this year. They have used a contract agency before, a few years ago when finding bodies was a challenge. The days of shaking a tree and finding unlimited qualified pilots is long gone.

[Karunch]

CAE/ Parc may be able to put lipstick on the pig, but its still a pig. Diverting the employment agency fees to the new & current pilots might have helped.

[Rated De]

EK is needing somewhere between 800 and 900 pilots this year. They have used a contract agency before, a few years ago when finding bodies was a challenge. The days of shaking a tree and finding unlimited qualified pilots is long gone.

Thanks for the clarification.
Naturally they will spare no expense to keep cost down. When Dubai world is full of un-crewed aircraft then perhaps through the haze of a desert wind they will change, but like their counterparts in the antipodes lower labour unit cost is the obsession!

[Jock p]

Sobering stats if only partially true

http://aci-na.org/sites/default/files/black-js17.pdf

[logansi]

Sobering stats if only partially true

http://aci-na.org/sites/default/files/black-js17.pdf

I had a chat with a guy who works in recruiting at one of the US regionals about E3 Visa's, he said "If expansion plans continue as planned and we don't see any significant economic or disaster (9/11) in the next few years by 2022 the shortage in the US will be so bad that even if every Qantas, Virgin, Jetstar and Tiger pilot moved over they will still be grounding planes" - he even said he would envision a future which saw the Majors offering E3 Visa's. He said the data he had shown that by 2020 the number of new pilots per year wouldn't even cover retirements, let alone expansion, pilots moving to Asia/ME etc. Very interesting times ahead.

He also said his regional currently has a 96% success rate for those who are interviewed - not sure how I feel about that, good for pilots but does make me question safety

[Rated De]

the shortage in the US will be so bad that even if every Qantas, Virgin, Jetstar and Tiger pilot moved over they will still be grounding planes" - he even said he would envision a future which saw the Majors offering E3 Visa's. He said the data he had shown that by 2020 the number of new pilots per year wouldn't even cover retirements, let alone expansion, pilots moving to Asia/ME etc. Very interesting times ahead.

The data sets we have reviewed suggest strongly that an economic downturn will not do a great deal to address the demographic structural shortage.

Pilots in Australia, particularly those at Qantas with a contract up for negotiation may want to quietly stop and ask themselves:



Is Australia any different to every other Western economy?
Has management quietly got 457 visas for a reason of controlling supply?
Is the Network announcement designed to 'spook' pilots?
Is Jetconnect to 'spook' pilots?
Has recruiting and adversarial IR/HR been predicated on unlimited supply?

If the answer to these questions is that management may have finally realised a shortage is real and sustained, they may be playing for a long contract term, and as few concessions as possible. After all IR/HR has been one way traffic for 30 years.


The Achilles heel for Qantas is that commuting contracts where living in Australia and working away, a bit like miners did a few years ago is a real possibility. Forward strategic thinking Asian carriers are already addressing this, contacts suggest very lucrative commuting contracts are imminent.



Take away the Australian basing and Qantas is at best a pick among a few airlines.

[logansi]

The data sets we have reviewed suggest strongly that an economic downturn will not do a great deal to address the demographic structural shortage.

Pilots in Australia, particularly those at Qantas with a contract up for negotiation may want to quietly stop and ask themselves:



Is Australia any different to every other Western economy?
Has management quietly got 457 visas for a reason of controlling supply?
Is the Network announcement designed to 'spook' pilots?
Is Jetconnect to 'spook' pilots?
Has recruiting and adversarial IR/HR been predicated on unlimited supply?

If the answer to these questions is that management may have finally realised a shortage is real and sustained, they may be playing for a long contract term, and as few concessions as possible. After all IR/HR has been one way traffic for 30 years.


The Achilles heel for Qantas is that commuting contracts where living in Australia and working away, a bit like miners did a few years ago is a real possibility. Forward strategic thinking Asian carriers are already addressing this, contacts suggest very lucrative commuting contracts are imminent.



Take away the Australian basing and Qantas is at best a pick among a few airlines.

The biggest thing (although unlikely) that could completely reshape our aviation industry and create a serious shortage very quickly would be commuting contracts and/or Australian crew bases for any of the ME3. If EK were willing i'm sure there would be plenty of Aussies willing to jump into an EK A380 if they could be based in Australia.

[Jeps]

As I understand a few years ago the consensus of the EK guys was “when hell freezes over”. Now it seems they are a lot more tepid about it. I don’t necessarily think it would matter if the ME3 didn’t offer such a thing because enough disruptors exist much closer to home.

[pilotchute]

Pilot shortage sceptics rejoice!

Since the start of this year I have been told I can't interview with one employer because "your IPC has less than 6 months currency". Another told me when I have done 150 hours in six months I can interview.

I can see how these things make me ineligible to fly a turbo prop!!

[bafanguy]

The data sets we have reviewed suggest strongly that an economic downturn will not do a great deal to address the demographic structural shortage.


If the answer to these questions is that management may have finally realised a shortage is real and sustained...

RD,

Correct for the USA for sure on the first statement. The attrition out the top is so high that laying off people in the inevitable economic hiccup will likely be unnecessary for quite a while at the career-destination level.

As for management awareness, what can ya say ? Every airline knows the exact moment a pilot will retire under existing regulatory structure the moment he's hired. And companies, unions and trade organizations collect this data so EVERYONE knows the score. Yet they've done nothing to prepare despite the evidence of a coming tsunami ?

So now they're scrambling ? They'll have to look elsewhere than me for any sympathy. Maybe they'll be able to overcome their misjudgement (I'm being kind) considering the infrastructure we have here in the USA...and have had for 50+ years at the university level, to say nothing of the countless commercial training operations:

About The Aviation Accreditation Board International (http://www.aabi.aero/about-aabi/)

Home - University Aviation Association (http://www.uaa.aero/)


While the case can be made that it's not the airlines' job to produce applicants at the front gate, they do have fleets to crew. Do they want to keep them crewed when the long range data has shown for decades a rather significant deficit was inevitable ? Some carriers here are trying to regain some equilibrium by spawning new blood into the field. Time will reveal their success.

Of course, given the bad press the career has gotten in recent years, getting people to jump into the fray at any level might be a bit uphill ? That's a whole other subject.

Maybe the sky-is-falling shortage, media attention will move some fence sitters in a necessary direction.

In the meantime, SEND...US...MORE...AUSSIES ! ;)

[CurtainTwitcher]

Of course, given the bad press the career has gotten in recent years, getting people to jump into the fray at any level might be a bit uphill ? That's a whole other subject.
Don't dismiss or underestimate this effect. I believe that is a significant factor along with the belief that AI pilotless airliner will be ready "any day soon" in dissuading fence sitters.

Aviation is not something that you fall into. From the start it takes a lot of determination and a bloody mindedness to achieve, and those people are obviously still there. However, many who have the curiosity or interest probably "fall into" something else like IT where you can be paid as-you-go to learn a new language, skill or software stack and from which it is hard to get out of. These provide immediate feedback and monetary reward for learning and effort. Aviation is the long game, with the potential for high long term financial rewards, commensurate with the high upfront risks.

[DeltaT]

Pilot shortage sceptics rejoice!

Since the start of this year I have been told I can't interview with one employer because "your IPC has less than 6 months currency". Another told me when I have done 150 hours in six months I can interview.

I can see how these things make me ineligible to fly a turbo prop!!

Yup, I have just been told by a jet carrier that they won't interview me because my multi-crew time is not very recent. (I meet all their stated mins). I also failed a jet interview end of last year because they wanted to see me lead the group in the team exercise.

[stormfury]

...they wanted to see me lead the group in the team exercise.

Yeah because why would you ever need to lead a small team as a CN (BA9, UA1549, QF32, OO-DLL).

Leadership is an essential element of effective CRM - has been for a while. https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19790006598.pdf

“It is important to establish the difference between leadership, which is acquired, and authority, which is assigned. An optimal situation exists when the two are combined. Leadership involves teamwork, and the quality of a leader depends on the success of the leader’s relationship with the team. Leadership skills should be developed for all through proper training; such training is essential in aircraft operations where junior crew members are sometimes called upon to adopt a leadership role throughout the normal performance of their duties. This may occur when the co-pilot must take over from an absent or incapacitated captain, or when a junior flight attendant must control the passengers in a particular cabin section.”

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP719.PDF

[josephfeatherweight]

Yeah, but you don’t know, on that particular day, if the HR numpties are looking for a leader, or a follower! How are you supposed to know? We all know that a Capt needs to display leadership, but what if you’re there to be a junior SO? “We want this bloke to tow the line, not overrule the boss!”
Storm fury, what was DeltaT supposed to do?!?

[pilotchute]

Yes Qlink need NASA pilots.

Leadership is learnt over many years. To be expecting it in an interview for FO's is a bit of a stretch.

[stormfury]

Yeah, but you don’t know, on that particular day, if the HR numpties are looking for a leader, or a follower!... Storm fury, what was DeltaT supposed to do?!?

I thought DeltaT’s intial post made it pretty clear what they were looking for on that particular day.
they wanted to see me lead the group in the team exercise.

I completely agree pilotchute, leadership is learnt over many years but that does not mean said company shouldn’t expect to see some basic leadership skills during an FO interview - I understand cabin crew recruitment also do this type of activity.

The fact that DeltaT was actually at the interview demonstrates he likely had all the knowledge and attributes to get through such a scenario (pending the odd HR wowser).

Unsing the fundamentals, aviate navigate - communicate, should be enough to demonstrate leadership in whatever desert crash survival / fix Apollo 13 / rebuild the Hindenburg scenario they use that day.

Aviate - this is the primary task (whatever your team has been asked to do). Determine what actions are needed to get from A to B - you are usually told what they want you to get the team to do. In determining the plan, ask your teammates for suggestions or input, they may have done something similar or be well versed in the task (CRM?).

Navigate - your team now has a plan, your job is to direct their collective actions so they conform to the agreed plan. If you note things going awry, voice this (as the assigned leader) and get them back on track.

Communicate - detail the requirements of the task to the team, get their input, outline the plan (chronologically, in steps) then communicate to the team when you identify things are proceeding as planned or if you need them to tweak them to achieve the required task.

Given I have no idea on what the actual scenario or requirements were, this is merely my take on it with minimal information (dangerous, I know). Maybe HR were looking for some sort of ‘Leonidas at Thermopylae’ type leadership but from my experience with these types of excercises the panel is looking for a basic plan that is communicated, commenced and monitored by the assigned leader.

Just my $0.02

[stormfury]

Yes Qlink need NASA pilots.

Who said anything about NASA pilots?

The NASA study was: A full mission simulation of a civil air transport scenario that had two levels of workload. Twenty fully qualified three-man crews took part in the study.

[pilotchute]

My NASA comment was just a bit of a dig at companies flying old school TP's expecting astronaut qualified crew. The hiring mins have come down but the expectation of HR hasn't really followed.

Asking someone with 2000 plus hours questions about adherence to SOPs and value adding to the company is relevant. Asking those same questions to a GR3 instructor who got his cpl 6 months ago is pretty pointless.

[stormfury]

Ah ok, I misjudged your comment.

But on your point I certainly agree. HR’s expectations need to reflect the minimum requirements they are selecting against. Although I foresee that HR expectations will continue to be elevated until they actually acknowledge the pool of ‘suitably qualified’ candidates is shrinking.

Then comes the next obstacle of bridging the gap in experience vs expectations. Not insurmountable but it first needs to be acknowledged that tomorrow’s FO is unlikely to have a comparable experience level as the one recruited last year, and the onus is on the company to bridge that.

[DeltaT]

I wasn't expecting such a reaction. To add context to that situation which seems to have gained interest. I acted upon the interview coaching I had received which was not to dominate and not to say nothing either. So I played it down the middle. Truth be told my input directly led to the outcome, which HR acknowledged. As was pointed out, I wasn't told until afterwards what they were looking for!
And just to add to my list, I just lost a air ambo job this week while doing famils, for asking too many questions about how their 24/7 roster works. Just found out I'm not the first they have done it to. No I didn't pass any negative comments.

[framer]

I’ve done a few rounds of interviewing over the years.
Delta T it’s not an exact science and rarely is a candidate knocked back for one thing only.
I’d be very surprised if the company who wanted to see you lead the group exercise was very happy with all other components of your application/ interview.
It is more likely ( in my opinion) that the interview panel had reservations about something based on either the sim exercise or your aptitude testing or your panel interview, they were probably 50/50 on you and were open to taking you if they saw something to counter their reservations in the group exercise.
I obviously have no idea if that’s what happened but my point is that it would have been a lot more complex than “ DeltaT didn’t lead the group therefore he/she is not suitable”.
I hope that is useful in some way.

[ozziekiwi]

The biggest thing (although unlikely) that could completely reshape our aviation industry and create a serious shortage very quickly would be commuting contracts and/or Australian crew bases for any of the ME3. If EK were willing i'm sure there would be plenty of Aussies willing to jump into an EK A380 if they could be based in Australia.

Perhaps it's already happening (maybe not with EK though). I know of a pilot who works for an Asian carrier who is based in Melbourne but actually lives in Auckland and commutes to/from there for duty.

[stormfury]

DeltaT

From what you’ve just outlined, you appear to have met the requirements for the group excercise scenario. As Framer has indicated maybe it was something more but for the panel to indicate it was based solely on the leadership excercise is very disingenuous. Did/do they offer the opportunity for feedback?

Sorry to hear about the air ambo gig.

[DeltaT]

That was the feedback, and the bit about 'compared to other applicants'.
I didn't want to make this thread drift to just about me, just from my personal experience I am finding this whole pilot shortage a farce.
I hear VA have no jet courses this year?

[Jeps]

Delta T, with absolutely no interest in defending The HR luvvies it could well be more complicated than that. I don’t know how old you are but if your a more mature gentleman HR might have some bias or expectation that your leadership would stand out more amongst younger candidates. I don’t know what your recent experience is but I know people who were rejected based on the fact they hadn’t flown for a little while or not enough. Could be many other things. I too know many good people rejected and others that were given a gig even with some fairly obvious foibles.

[umop apisdn]

It might seem like it's not a thing from an Australian perspective but it is definitely a thing from a global perspective.

Skywest have more jets than Qantas, Virgin, Tiger and Jetstar combined, and that is only one regional. Count all the others and you realise how huge the scope of aviation is in the USA. Think you can look up in the sky here and find out where the guy above you is headed with flightaware? Wrong. You will see a sea of aircraft going every which way.


In the USA it is going to be a huge problem, more than what it already is. Regional airlines hire at only barely above the rate the the majors suck pilots out, plus flying schools are closing down from lack of students. You can come over here with .1 above the mins, all on a 152 if you so desired, although you do need 25 multi, and get straight into a jet. Only to get command in under 2 years in some cases.

It's also pretty good for a stint: Full, unrestricted ICAO ATPL. No bonding. Sign on bonuses. Leave whenever you want. Renew your visa indefinitely. Jumpseat on any domestic flight.

[pilotchute]

I have spoken to a few recruiters in the US and when I asked about the "on the spot hiring" mentality now he replied,
"we used to be a bit picky but in today's climate you can't. If they are no good we find out during type rating".
"Admittedly this puts extra costs on the company but people we would have knocked back a few years ago seem to turn out fine most of the time".

[patty50]

So contrary to some posters Australian exceptionalism is a thing? Fact is few other countries have so many expats overseas many of whom would rush home if they could in addition to a massive government loan system that funds new CPLs. We are a supplier of pilots with a small home market, boomers retiring doesn't change that.

When the airlines can pick and choose the preferred genitalia of their pilots bit of a stretch to say there's a huge shortage.