Combined Traffic Advisory Frequency in Highlands

[Maoraigh1]

Any views on this? It's new to me. Copied from the Lossie AUWG 4/11/2014 minutes:
Item 9 – Combined TrafficAdvisory Frequency
13. Mr Nik Suddards introduced the concept of CTAF. This would be an AIRPROX avoidance tool used by low level rotary and fixed wing pilots operating autonomously in areas with poor communications (e.g. Great Glen).
Pilots would use the CTAF to transmit their position, height and direction of flight.
Any ac nearby would hear the transmissions and have the opportunity to react appropriately: a“Hear and Avoid” system to compliment “See and Avoid”.
Based on systems already used overseas for example in rural Alaska.
14. Introduction in northern Scotland has been proposed to the CAA and is currently under initial review however a trial period may be considered if there is sufficient support from local users. To this end Mr Suddards welcomed any support that the AUWG attendees could offer. Update: The RAF Safety Centre is co-ordinating the RAF support to this trial and has been in contact with Mr Suddards.

[Heston]

My only comment would be that the author needs to learn the difference between "compliment" and "complement" ;)

[DeltaV]

Who is Nik Suddards and apart from being an interfering busybody what is his role or remit in this?

[fisbangwollop]

Deltav......Who is Nik Suddards and apart from being an interfering busybody what is his role or remit in this?

He's just a hard working aviator doing a very difficult task whilst at the same time trying to stay alive by dodging military jets doing 400kts at 250ft.

[chevvron]

How many years did it take to get 'Safetycom' introduced?

[Maoraigh1]

Who is Nik Suddards and apart from being an interfering busybody what is his role or remit in this?

A helicopter pilot operating in the Highlands.

It's an interesting idea for constructive discussion.
For the fastjets, we'd have to be transmitting almost continuously. If they had TCAS, they could pick up our ModeS+C.
What form would the position report take? eg "xxxx' over Lochan Fada" or what my Airspace Avoid would give, something like "xx.y miles NNE of Plockton" or Lat Long?
If the CAA said 134.750 could be used, it could be tried.

[chevvron]

I know it's being retrofited, but not many RAF jets have TCAS.
Need to have a dedicated frequency otherwise 134.750 would be blocked.

[Mach Jump]

It sounds like an idea worth trying out, but I agree with Maoraigh1 that to keep the passing FJs updated as they arrive in the area you would have to repeat the message quite often.

I also think that referring to people who try to come up with ways to make us all safer as 'interfering busybodies' is a little ungrateful. :=

Chevron:

I've never understood why Safeteycom wasn't introduced on 123.45, the frequency most people were using for the purpose anyway.

Have you any inside info on that?


MJ:ok:

[chevvron]

It's allocated to some airfields just across the channel, so use air to air in the UK would interfere with their use. It's an ITU thing, not CAA, they have to request a frequency from ITU which wouldn't interfere with someone else.
Er I think 123.4 is spare at the moment, but I didn't tell you that, OK?

[Mach Jump]

Ah, I see. Thanks.:)

Don't worry, ;) It's just between you and me!


MJ:ok:

[DeltaV]

The area being proposed for this is Class G airspace where people are free to fly without radio if they so choose. How does that gel with the idea of CTAF?

Again, what is Nik Suddards role here? Concerned individual, in which case his opinion is no more or less valid than mine, or has he some appointed function? If so, appointed by whom and with what function?

[fisbangwollop]

Nik Suddards is a commercial helicopter pilot involved in under slung load lifting tasks in the Highlands. Nik came up with this idea after an RAF Hawk earlier this year nearly ended his life as the Hawk came over a ridge line at 250ft and missed Nik with a few feet to spare.

The paper he has put forward is only to use Safety comm to give the odd call whilst operating at very low level when contact with Scottish Info or any other ATS unit is not possible due to low level and terrain.

It seems a good idea in theory but I think the speed the fast jets travel and the low level they operate at will not give much warning before they are on top of you.

My own feelings after 42 years in ATC is maybe give it a go but I feel better use should be made of NOTAMing any unusual activity like under slung load work so that the military jets can de conflict with the airspace prior to departure.

[DeltaV]

Thank you for that clarification and for the insight into Nik Suddards' interest.

It does touch on another pet peeve that the MOD have such a large chunk of airspace, the HRA, in which to play yet they don't stay in it. No real reason why they should of course. Anyone can fly in the surrounding Class G, only when they're not operating in the HRA it might be better were they to operate in a more universally predictable manner in which case Nik Suddards might not have had the fright of his life.

I expect that if Nik Suddards has a professional need to sling a load within the HRA he or his employer will have notified and negotiated with the RAF to the extent that he will be a known obstacle.

So the issue is really with military operations and, it seems to me, therein lies the problem. I imagine the life of a fast jet pilot is quite busy so I expect yet another thing to pay attention to, 'hear and avoid', won't be enthusiastically received.

Furthermore, how is this supposed to work low level in areas with poor communications? The fast jet could be ten seconds away behind a hill and never hear a thing. Or the helicopter pilot might be so focussed on placing his underslung load at that moment when, perhaps, a call might be useful.

If this is a real and pressing concern it needs a better solution and it probably involves the conduct of military flying more than anything else.

[fisbangwollop]

Deltav...... The fast jet could be ten seconds away behind a hill and never hear a thing. Or the helicopter pilot might be so focussed on placing his underslung load at that moment when, perhaps, a call might be useful

Yes those are my thoughts exactly, but I guess the odd call that may get through and achieves some situational awareness is better than nothing.

[Maoraigh1]

Need to have a dedicated frequency otherwise 134.750 would be blocked.

Calls down in the valleys won't go far, at least to other low-level aircraft. If not 134.750, there would be a problem near airstrips like Glendoe in the Great Glen, or Barisdale, which seems maintained at present.

[gasax]

Presumably Nick has 'discovered' that the official method of avoiding these problems CANP, does not work. Well it never has - but is supposedly directly aimed at his problem. Perhaps some serious publicity about that issue might help?

As Maoraigh states TCAS is supposed to be being fitted - but then it was mandated in 1990 for the Tornado fleet and is still years away (if ever).

Having said that on the Canadian West coast there are area radio frequencies which are used for route and position reporting. Given the often rather low ceiling this means many operators have to use passes in the mountains and islands and fly through the letterbox, and it is standard practice to give a radio call when approaching and leaving these choke points. That works pretty well but the areas are fairly small - from memory 40-ish miles.

[Jan Olieslagers]

But that can (and should, IMHO) be done on the FIS frequency - what need for a separate frequency/service?

[NorthSouth]

All of the chat so far has missed one essential point. There is already a CTAF for military low level traffic. It's a common frequency for all low flying areas. But it's on UHF. It's in common use - more by some units than others - and is typically used by FJs as they descend to enter low level (thus having a bit more broadcast range than if they did it only when at low level).

But since civil aircraft don't have UHF, and as far as I know there is no mechanism for military aircraft to simultaneously transmit on UHF and VHF, the only way this facility could be of benefit to civil traffic is if they moved the CTAF frequency from UHF to VHF.

[Romeo Tango]

In my very limited experience of these things (I once had the privilege of being sick in the back of a Jaguar) low level flying in a fast jet is a very violent high pressure operation there is not much time for position reports. Anyway the aircraft round the next corner 5 seconds away probably can't hear you.

Personally I am happy with the ratio of aluminium to air being quite low but if society wants a solution surely that is Flarm ...

Bill

[Good Business Sense]

Maybe if we could have that big chunk of restricted military airspace (Mon-Thur after 3pm) at the top of Scotland back then we'd be less likely to bump into each other - hardly used

Galling bit is - as you do your best to avoid it, the hills and the weather - the mil go screaming past you ..... outside of it !!

[xrayalpha]

Funnily enough, Nik doesn't actually propose it as a way for GA and military to avoid each other.

As I read it, he is proposing it as a way for GA (rotary and fixed wing) to avoid each other - and an RAF bod has been asked to look at mil input.

Seems a damn good idea to me - but would say not much use on safety.com

Airfields like us use safety.com - saves fees to Ofcom! - and we already have a problem with pilots from here (it is alleged) not using the Strathaven airfield name when making the call, thus causing much head rotating at Bute.

So more safety.com traffic not a good idea - but a dedicated frequency (there must be lots spare now Ofcom is charging so as to make sure we all surrender little-used frequencies!) would be the answer.

Finally, I don't care who or why or what is behind the idea - if it is a good'un let's get it happening.

[NorthSouth]

GBS:Maybe if we could have that big chunk of restricted military airspace (Mon-Thur after 3pm) at the top of Scotland back then we'd be less likely to bump into each other - hardly used

Galling bit is - as you do your best to avoid it, the hills and the weather - the mil go screaming past you ..... outside of it !! I think you misunderstand the purpose of that piece of airspace. It is specifically for low flying in IMC. Because the crews carrying out this training are not necessarily in a position to look out the window, this traffic needs segregation. But it is segregated from military VFR low level traffic as well as civil. This means that normal VFR low level military flights around north west Scotland during the times when R610A is active will all be found outside it, not inside it.

NS

[2 sheds]

Er I think 123.4 is spare at the moment, but I didn't tell you that, OK?

How have you come to that conclusion, Chevvron? What constitutes "spare"? Not really a good idea to encourage its use by implication.

2 s

[Maoraigh1]

That works pretty well but the areas are fairly small - from memory 40-ish miles.
That would be a big area in Scotland.

If there were a civi CTAF, would the jets monitor it, and, if they did, would the pilot have the spare brain capacity to comprehend the type of position report I could send? Not a rhetorical question - some guys could answer it.
What is the form of their location awareness?
Perhaps an update to the NOTAM system would be the answer for underslung load work, allowing faster input/cancellation of NOTAMS, which are upgraded in flight on my Android.

[Good Business Sense]

I think you misunderstand the purpose of that piece of airspace.

Thanks NS I knew most of that except the MIL VFR and IFR split.

This is a very, very large part of Scotland unavailable for long periods of time and it, very often, has no aircraft in it. I have asked on several occasions to enter by talking to the military direct but the answer is ALWAYS no - no effort made on flexibility. So north of Fort William is a big no fly zone for large parts of the day.

I can understand routes for the IMC stuff but to take the whole lot ??? :ugh:

GSB

[NorthSouth]

I know, you're absolutely right. It was created in 1981 when the RAF was building up to hundreds of Tornado GR.1s and the USAF had 160 F-111s based in the UK. All of these had the capability for automatic terrain-following flight at low level and all of them spent virtually all of their flight time at low level. Even then, R610A was rarely busy. Nowadays we have a tiny fraction of that fleet and a tiny fraction of their flight time is at low level.

Also of interest to note that R610A is the only piece of airspace in Europe where low flying in IMC is permitted. You wonder how Italian and German Tornados managed, since they never used it.

We hear a lot these days about "Flexible Use of Airspace". But it has never been applied to R610A. It could be activated by NOTAM only.

Of course that would mean that, when it's not NOTAMed active, all the military VFRs would pile into the area as well as you GA types......

[mad_jock]

to be honest the amount of aircraft I met which could only have come from one place when it was active....

[Good Business Sense]

Hi NS,

Many thanks once again.

Yeh, I spent 6 months outdoors on Skye this year and I never saw an aircraft in 610B - I did see one MIL jet in that period over the island but he was below the 750 feet. I understand 610B was the entry/exit from 610A for the low level guys?

In the summer it's as shame to have to stop flying an hour or so before 3pm (to clear the area) - biggest pain is if the weather is bad in the morning you need to cancel as you can't just re-plan for the afternoon.

I'll keep trying with guys at the other end of the HRA phone number.

PS I'm very much a big sky man as far as separation is concerned - be good when the MIL get transponders though and we can let TCAS do its job.

Best

[ShyTorque]

During the Cold War times in Germany we operated on "Corps Common" frequency of 255.1 whilst flying at low level. It was available for airmanship calls, such as transmitting a choke point. It worked well but wasn't a full answer to the problem. It was easy for terrain masking to occur.

[Maoraigh1]

VHF LOW-LEVEL COMMON FREQUENCY TRIAL

1. In conjunction with the CAA, thefollowing protocol will be trialled as a VHF Low-Level Common frequency.


VHF LOW-LEVEL COMMONFREQUENCY

‘VHF LL-Common’is being trialled as an information service on the VHF Frequency 135.475 MHz inorder to improve the situational awareness amongst, and aid deconflictionbetween, military and civilian aircraft operating in the same area. It is available for use by all aircrewoperating at or below 2000’ AGL in the UK Low Flying System whenoperating north of LatitudeN56·00°.
Aircrewshould apply their airmanship when considering the timing and content of theirtransmissions. The following is offeredas guidance:

Timing
· When safe and suitable to do so
· When operating north of Latitude N56·00°.
· At turning points or significantheading changes
· Approaching well-known and recognisablephysical features
· Any time it is considered beneficial tothe safety of the aircraft (such as approaching choke points or knownareas of high traffic density).
Content
· Ac callsign
· Ac type (and number, in the case offormations)
· Position in relation to reference pointsimmediately identifiable to other pilots (using cardinal or inter-cardinaldirections)
· Height
· Heading
· Next significant reference point
Exampletransmission:
“Spartan, Tornado, 8nm NE of Inverness,250’, heading 170° towards Aviemore"
“Python formation, 2 Hawks, 5 miles N of Perth,250', heading East towards Montrose”

Notes:
· Using this frequency should not takepriority over obtaining a Lower Airspace Radar Service.
· Transmissions should be kept short,simple and effective, and should not clog up the frequency.
· If you do not hear any transmissions,you should not assume there’s no aircraft nearby. Use all measures available to avoid MAC, andmaintain an effective lookout scan.

[piperboy84]

Makes sense , will give it a try and see how it goes. It's impressive just how good the range is on those low powered GA radios, I have a Garmin 40 and a Trig and often hear folks self announcing on safteycom 135.475 at Insch when I'm landing at Forfar.

[ChickenHouse]

Are we start acting like guinea pigs, continuously squeaking?

Yes, this kind of technique could be a nice addon and yes, I welcomed it in rural Alaska, but - in that case I almost knew every pilot transmitting. In more crowded airspaces compared to Alaska, this will end up in gibberish - my5cents.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Chevron;


123.4 may still be in use as a company ops frequency, and A/G for a North Sea gas field.


SND

[Maoraigh1]

PPPAre we start acting like guinea pigs, continuously squeaking?

I'm continuously squawking but the military don't have the means to detect it.

In more crowded airspaces compared to Alaska, this will end up in gibberish - my5cents.
I'm not sure our low level airspace is more crowded - Alaska has much more GA, although our airspace is tiny in comparison.

[fisbangwollop]

Piperboy will give it a try and see how it goes.
I hope that doesn't mean your going to abandon my friendly service on 119.875.:cool:

[Maoraigh1]

That's a problem for those of us with only one box. I'm thinking of my handheld on 135.475 with an earphone under one headset muff, and 135.475 on the inactive on the fixed set, to try it out.
The trial starts on Sunday February 1.
If I know fastjets are coming up the glen behind me, it'll be a bit like being a hedgehog on the motorway hearing traffic coming.

[piperboy84]

Piperboy
Quote:
will give it a try and see how it goes.
I hope that doesn't mean your going to abandon my friendly service on 119.875.

Not a chance, I've got 2 boxes hooked up to the fanciest damn audio panel you've ever seen, it splits, monitors, isolates and god knows what else short of whipping up a cappuccino. And what other farm strip can a guy sit in his plane warming the engine while parked inside the hangar and still be able to receive SI for radio checks and weather prior to taxi? Your repeater at Craigowl is the dogs bollox.

[Floppy Link]

Does anybody have a link to an official source?

[Maoraigh1]

Link sent as PM with contact details.

If you have any questions regarding the LL VHF Common Frequency, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Regards,
Safety Centre XO| RAF Lossiemouth | Elgin | Moray | IV31 6SD

[Silvaire1]

In more crowded airspaces compared to Alaska, this will end up in gibberish - my5cents. I found it interesting that Alaska is mentioned, because in my ongoing US experience, air-to-air VFR position reporting is more commonly done in busy airspace with a lot of VFR traffic. Its a situation that grew organically over time, using the assigned air-to-air frequency (122.75 thoughout the US). It works pretty well especially along corridors with a lot of traffic, for instance along a shoreline where there are banner tow flights and a lot of people sightseeing. The same VFR traffic in remote areas would more likely be talking to nobody.

US 'Flight Following', i.e. using en route ATC for radar traffic advisories when VFR, is more commonly used (at pilot discretion) when on a longer cross-country flight with a defined routing that could transit either or both remote areas or busy terminal areas. Air-to-air is different, more commonly used for local flying in dense traffic areas, where using ATC would be cumbersome. There can be issues with nervous students announcing their every move, but in general I think it functions OK.

[mad_jock]

its not really designed for when you can get any other service.

Its for when you can't get Scottish info.

To be honest if you fly above 1000ft agl its not really meant for you either. Although it may be of use in the Great Glen.

Its for when the helicopter boys are long lining working. So they are clashing with low level mil traffic because they are sub 500ft most of the time.

In all the years flying in the highlands apart from once which was my fault being below 1000ft agl taking photo's you don't have a problem GA with the low level traffic. And that includes the period with the build up for Gulf I and II.