Combined Traffic Advisory Frequency in Highlands
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Combined Traffic Advisory Frequency in Highlands
Any views on this? It's new to me. Copied from the Lossie AUWG 4/11/2014 minutes:
Item 9 – Combined TrafficAdvisory Frequency
13. Mr Nik Suddards introduced the concept of CTAF. This would be an AIRPROX avoidance tool used by low level rotary and fixed wing pilots operating autonomously in areas with poor communications (e.g. Great Glen).
Pilots would use the CTAF to transmit their position, height and direction of flight.
Any ac nearby would hear the transmissions and have the opportunity to react appropriately: a“Hear and Avoid” system to compliment “See and Avoid”.
Based on systems already used overseas for example in rural Alaska.
14. Introduction in northern Scotland has been proposed to the CAA and is currently under initial review however a trial period may be considered if there is sufficient support from local users. To this end Mr Suddards welcomed any support that the AUWG attendees could offer. Update: The RAF Safety Centre is co-ordinating the RAF support to this trial and has been in contact with Mr Suddards.
Item 9 – Combined TrafficAdvisory Frequency
13. Mr Nik Suddards introduced the concept of CTAF. This would be an AIRPROX avoidance tool used by low level rotary and fixed wing pilots operating autonomously in areas with poor communications (e.g. Great Glen).
Pilots would use the CTAF to transmit their position, height and direction of flight.
Any ac nearby would hear the transmissions and have the opportunity to react appropriately: a“Hear and Avoid” system to compliment “See and Avoid”.
Based on systems already used overseas for example in rural Alaska.
14. Introduction in northern Scotland has been proposed to the CAA and is currently under initial review however a trial period may be considered if there is sufficient support from local users. To this end Mr Suddards welcomed any support that the AUWG attendees could offer. Update: The RAF Safety Centre is co-ordinating the RAF support to this trial and has been in contact with Mr Suddards.
Last edited by Maoraigh1; 17th Nov 2014 at 20:28. Reason: Add missing spaces
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Deltav......
He's just a hard working aviator doing a very difficult task whilst at the same time trying to stay alive by dodging military jets doing 400kts at 250ft.
Who is Nik Suddards and apart from being an interfering busybody what is his role or remit in this?
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Who is Nik Suddards and apart from being an interfering busybody what is his role or remit in this?
It's an interesting idea for constructive discussion.
For the fastjets, we'd have to be transmitting almost continuously. If they had TCAS, they could pick up our ModeS+C.
What form would the position report take? eg "xxxx' over Lochan Fada" or what my Airspace Avoid would give, something like "xx.y miles NNE of Plockton" or Lat Long?
If the CAA said 134.750 could be used, it could be tried.
It sounds like an idea worth trying out, but I agree with Maoraigh1 that to keep the passing FJs updated as they arrive in the area you would have to repeat the message quite often.
I also think that referring to people who try to come up with ways to make us all safer as 'interfering busybodies' is a little ungrateful.
Chevron:
I've never understood why Safeteycom wasn't introduced on 123.45, the frequency most people were using for the purpose anyway.
Have you any inside info on that?
MJ
I also think that referring to people who try to come up with ways to make us all safer as 'interfering busybodies' is a little ungrateful.
Chevron:
I've never understood why Safeteycom wasn't introduced on 123.45, the frequency most people were using for the purpose anyway.
Have you any inside info on that?
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 17th Nov 2014 at 23:32. Reason: Spelling>
It's allocated to some airfields just across the channel, so use air to air in the UK would interfere with their use. It's an ITU thing, not CAA, they have to request a frequency from ITU which wouldn't interfere with someone else.
Er I think 123.4 is spare at the moment, but I didn't tell you that, OK?
Er I think 123.4 is spare at the moment, but I didn't tell you that, OK?
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The area being proposed for this is Class G airspace where people are free to fly without radio if they so choose. How does that gel with the idea of CTAF?
Again, what is Nik Suddards role here? Concerned individual, in which case his opinion is no more or less valid than mine, or has he some appointed function? If so, appointed by whom and with what function?
Again, what is Nik Suddards role here? Concerned individual, in which case his opinion is no more or less valid than mine, or has he some appointed function? If so, appointed by whom and with what function?
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Nik Suddards is a commercial helicopter pilot involved in under slung load lifting tasks in the Highlands. Nik came up with this idea after an RAF Hawk earlier this year nearly ended his life as the Hawk came over a ridge line at 250ft and missed Nik with a few feet to spare.
The paper he has put forward is only to use Safety comm to give the odd call whilst operating at very low level when contact with Scottish Info or any other ATS unit is not possible due to low level and terrain.
It seems a good idea in theory but I think the speed the fast jets travel and the low level they operate at will not give much warning before they are on top of you.
My own feelings after 42 years in ATC is maybe give it a go but I feel better use should be made of NOTAMing any unusual activity like under slung load work so that the military jets can de conflict with the airspace prior to departure.
The paper he has put forward is only to use Safety comm to give the odd call whilst operating at very low level when contact with Scottish Info or any other ATS unit is not possible due to low level and terrain.
It seems a good idea in theory but I think the speed the fast jets travel and the low level they operate at will not give much warning before they are on top of you.
My own feelings after 42 years in ATC is maybe give it a go but I feel better use should be made of NOTAMing any unusual activity like under slung load work so that the military jets can de conflict with the airspace prior to departure.
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Thank you for that clarification and for the insight into Nik Suddards' interest.
It does touch on another pet peeve that the MOD have such a large chunk of airspace, the HRA, in which to play yet they don't stay in it. No real reason why they should of course. Anyone can fly in the surrounding Class G, only when they're not operating in the HRA it might be better were they to operate in a more universally predictable manner in which case Nik Suddards might not have had the fright of his life.
I expect that if Nik Suddards has a professional need to sling a load within the HRA he or his employer will have notified and negotiated with the RAF to the extent that he will be a known obstacle.
So the issue is really with military operations and, it seems to me, therein lies the problem. I imagine the life of a fast jet pilot is quite busy so I expect yet another thing to pay attention to, 'hear and avoid', won't be enthusiastically received.
Furthermore, how is this supposed to work low level in areas with poor communications? The fast jet could be ten seconds away behind a hill and never hear a thing. Or the helicopter pilot might be so focussed on placing his underslung load at that moment when, perhaps, a call might be useful.
If this is a real and pressing concern it needs a better solution and it probably involves the conduct of military flying more than anything else.
It does touch on another pet peeve that the MOD have such a large chunk of airspace, the HRA, in which to play yet they don't stay in it. No real reason why they should of course. Anyone can fly in the surrounding Class G, only when they're not operating in the HRA it might be better were they to operate in a more universally predictable manner in which case Nik Suddards might not have had the fright of his life.
I expect that if Nik Suddards has a professional need to sling a load within the HRA he or his employer will have notified and negotiated with the RAF to the extent that he will be a known obstacle.
So the issue is really with military operations and, it seems to me, therein lies the problem. I imagine the life of a fast jet pilot is quite busy so I expect yet another thing to pay attention to, 'hear and avoid', won't be enthusiastically received.
Furthermore, how is this supposed to work low level in areas with poor communications? The fast jet could be ten seconds away behind a hill and never hear a thing. Or the helicopter pilot might be so focussed on placing his underslung load at that moment when, perhaps, a call might be useful.
If this is a real and pressing concern it needs a better solution and it probably involves the conduct of military flying more than anything else.
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Deltav......
Yes those are my thoughts exactly, but I guess the odd call that may get through and achieves some situational awareness is better than nothing.
The fast jet could be ten seconds away behind a hill and never hear a thing. Or the helicopter pilot might be so focussed on placing his underslung load at that moment when, perhaps, a call might be useful
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Need to have a dedicated frequency otherwise 134.750 would be blocked.
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Presumably Nick has 'discovered' that the official method of avoiding these problems CANP, does not work. Well it never has - but is supposedly directly aimed at his problem. Perhaps some serious publicity about that issue might help?
As Maoraigh states TCAS is supposed to be being fitted - but then it was mandated in 1990 for the Tornado fleet and is still years away (if ever).
Having said that on the Canadian West coast there are area radio frequencies which are used for route and position reporting. Given the often rather low ceiling this means many operators have to use passes in the mountains and islands and fly through the letterbox, and it is standard practice to give a radio call when approaching and leaving these choke points. That works pretty well but the areas are fairly small - from memory 40-ish miles.
As Maoraigh states TCAS is supposed to be being fitted - but then it was mandated in 1990 for the Tornado fleet and is still years away (if ever).
Having said that on the Canadian West coast there are area radio frequencies which are used for route and position reporting. Given the often rather low ceiling this means many operators have to use passes in the mountains and islands and fly through the letterbox, and it is standard practice to give a radio call when approaching and leaving these choke points. That works pretty well but the areas are fairly small - from memory 40-ish miles.
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All of the chat so far has missed one essential point. There is already a CTAF for military low level traffic. It's a common frequency for all low flying areas. But it's on UHF. It's in common use - more by some units than others - and is typically used by FJs as they descend to enter low level (thus having a bit more broadcast range than if they did it only when at low level).
But since civil aircraft don't have UHF, and as far as I know there is no mechanism for military aircraft to simultaneously transmit on UHF and VHF, the only way this facility could be of benefit to civil traffic is if they moved the CTAF frequency from UHF to VHF.
But since civil aircraft don't have UHF, and as far as I know there is no mechanism for military aircraft to simultaneously transmit on UHF and VHF, the only way this facility could be of benefit to civil traffic is if they moved the CTAF frequency from UHF to VHF.
In my very limited experience of these things (I once had the privilege of being sick in the back of a Jaguar) low level flying in a fast jet is a very violent high pressure operation there is not much time for position reports. Anyway the aircraft round the next corner 5 seconds away probably can't hear you.
Personally I am happy with the ratio of aluminium to air being quite low but if society wants a solution surely that is Flarm ...
Bill
Personally I am happy with the ratio of aluminium to air being quite low but if society wants a solution surely that is Flarm ...
Bill
Maybe if we could have that big chunk of restricted military airspace (Mon-Thur after 3pm) at the top of Scotland back then we'd be less likely to bump into each other - hardly used
Galling bit is - as you do your best to avoid it, the hills and the weather - the mil go screaming past you ..... outside of it !!
Galling bit is - as you do your best to avoid it, the hills and the weather - the mil go screaming past you ..... outside of it !!