Flying with another pilot who "handles" the controls

[Scoobster]

Many of you will have had more experienced pilots or buddies in the RHS (other than instructors) and who are also qualified pilots. Even though you are PIC..

I am interested in your thoughts or if you have experienced your friends/buddies/pilots handling controls - though they are not formal co-pilot.

You could be going to Calais or Oxford or Duxford or wherever takes your fancy! or coming back in the circuit...

Throughout the flight you notice your friend/buddy/all round nice guy make subtle control inputs.. like reduce the throttle by a 100rpm because they think you are flying to fast or apply rudder because they think you are not using enough rudder input etc. They are more experienced so you think.. "OK.. do I let this pass or have words.. or am I being arrogant"

Obviously you can learn a lot from another more experienced aviator.. However, am I wrong in saying this is probably better suited to if you back seat with them?

You let the subtle input's slide because they are "more experienced" but conscious if you should say something (although they are a higher license holder).

They notice an aircraft ahead... and say ... Make the radio call like ABC, though you do what your instructor said and as per your training. The intentions are good but would it be fair to say may be off putting?

and finally you pipe up and say .. "I am in command... in a professional and friendly manner"

Have you experienced this before? And how does one or should one deal with this?

In a formal setting I believe this may be referred to as MCC.. but way beyond my scope of knowledge at this humble stage.

Curiosity killed the cat..

Scoobster.

[maxred]

Decide before you take off who does what, and barring a life threatening emergency, stick to it.

I find if one person does nav, comms, the other flies etc, or sometimes it can be made clear that the more experienced guy, can have HELPFULL input.

If that does not work, ask politely to takes ones hand off the throttle please.

[3 Point]

Potentially a very dangerous situation! If you are the pilot in command and another pilot is fiddling with things you have to speak up and you have to be clear and unambiguous.

The best policy would be to anticipate the situation in your pre-flight briefing, eg "I would like you to be responsible for lookout/radio/navigation/writing up the PLOG (whatever you think) and I will be responsible for all flying tasks, if you see something which does not seem right please bring it to my attention and I will decide what to do. Do you have any questions?"

A simple briefing like that sets clear boundaries and should avoid any "task confusion" without giving offence. If the other guy does take offence then you can off-load him or cancel the flight before you even start!

If you are in flight and he is fiddling (whether or not you gave a briefing) then you must speak up and you must be firm. eg "John, please remember that I am flying this leg, if you see something wrong please let me know but do not interfere with the aircraft controls!"

Happy landings

3 Point

[Scoobster]

Great points M.R and 3-Point.

The pre-flight briefing and deciding who does what is certainly a way to set the boundaries from the beginning as you rightly said 3 Point. I have often sat in CPL backseats and seen the Instructor tell the student to do the PAX brief and one of the items on the list is something along the lines of "Please refrain from interfering with the controls etc".

I have wondered though if it is a 2 seat aircraft and your buddy touches the controls, surely they wouldn't be stupid enough to "endanger" the safety of the flight...a) because they are a pilot also b) they are a higher license holder.. and if you firmly state you are PIC (on the ground) - that should nip it in the bud on the ground rather than in the air!

What about situations where pilot buddies in the RHS with good intention call out minimum height information in the air on approach..?

For example, you need to be "xxx feet crossing ABC"... or "you are xxx feet to high at ABC"... to which may elicit a similar response of "I am PIC and don't worry I wont let anything happen to you..or I will deal with it"..

I suspect it is probably always un-nerving if you haven't flown with this particular person before?

The explanation to which on the ground after tends to be ... This is what the co-pilot will do in a large commercial environment.. calling out "minimums". Whatever that means!

Scoobster

[9 lives]

The only time these days that I'm flying with another pilot who would think to "control" the aircraft without my request to do so, is when I'm flight testing something (modification approval, not pilot skill). This was a problem before I started doing really thorough preflight briefings. Now (having learned the hard way) I brief:

" I will fly, and I will continue to fly no matter what. If you need to fly, you say "I've got it" and you'll have it - all of it. But, if that happens, the flight test is over, and we're going home - incomplete"

Since I brief that, I've never had a problem. If I were to, I would end the flight, and that pilot would not be right seat to me again.

If you are willing to have the other pilot touch things, discuss it first.

On the obverse, I can think of three times that, having left it too long anyway, I suddenly announced "I've got it", and took over, without negotiation. At that point, I considered it to be life and death. Apparently, for whatever reason, the other pilot did not disagree, as nothing was ever said.

But, I go to a lot of effort to have the the other pilot fly as much as possible. It's only the very demanding things where I might request to fly, by advanced briefing, and agreement. A very tight landing into a small lake, of go around, for example.

[OhNoCB]

When I fly with someone I stress to them that I want them to alert me to anything that they think is wrong, that they disagree with and/or that is causing them concern.

I also retain the "I have control/You have control" that I learnt in lesson 1 of my PPL. If they made any adjustments to power or flight control inputs without asking first (for lack of better phrasing) I would immediately be telling them that I was controlling and that they should draw my attention to it but not act themselves, and if they continued to do this I would be considering not flying with them again.

2 people controlling an aircraft when neither knows who is in control is a very bad thing whether it is two PPLs in a 152 or a commercial crew in a jet (look at the 447 accident).

[Genghis the Engineer]

The only time these days that I'm flying with another pilot who would think to "control" the aircraft without my request to do so, is when I'm flight testing something (modification approval, not pilot skill). This was a problem before I started doing really thorough preflight briefings. Now (having learned the hard way) I brief:

" I will fly, and I will continue to fly no matter what. If you need to fly, you say "I've got it" and you'll have it - all of it. But, if that happens, the flight test is over, and we're going home - incomplete"

I've had exactly the same issue, and come to the same basic solution.


One thing you have to remember is that mosts PPLs have had no training in CRM, nobody has discussed issues like cockpit authority gradient with them, and they really don't understand how dangerous these behaviours can be.

I do invite people in the right hand seat to advise me of anything that concerns them at any point, but that they must ONLY do so verbally.

G

[chevvron]

The 'I have control/you have control' scenario is taught to ATC cadets for gliding and AEF; I've always used it.

[piperboy84]

Boy did I just have the following drilled into me during training

Item number 1 FAA Commercial PTS Special Emphasis Areas

Positive Exchange of Flight Controls
During flight training, there must always be a clear understanding
between students and flight instructors of who has control of the
aircraft. Prior to flight, a briefing should be conducted that includes
the procedure for the exchange of flight controls. A positive threestep
process in the exchange of flight controls between pilots is a
proven procedure and one that is strongly recommended.
When the instructor wishes the student to take control of the aircraft,
he or she will say, “You have the flight controls.” The student
acknowledges immediately by saying, “I have the flight controls.”
The flight instructor again says, “You have the flight controls.” When
control is returned to the instructor, follow the same procedure. A
visual check is recommended to verify that the exchange has
occurred. There should never by any doubt as to who is flying the
aircraft

[Flyingmac]

I find that Instructors in the r/h seat on non-instructional flights are the worst for fiddling. I had to remind one that I had 5 times the hours that he had, and didn't require assistance. :=

[Scoobster]

Appreciate the input.

The "I have control"... "You have control" element was followed to the tee and to the law of the land... but I just didn't anticipate the "fiddling" in the air.

The brief was also given but no "designation of duties" and where I obviously fell short of defining the clear boundaries.

Also the regular call outs of "you need to be XXX feet" as you pass XYZ etc were somewhat distracting.

I am learning something new everyday and will implement some of the strategies that have been discussed here and my initial training.

Many Thanks.

Scoobster

[Crash one]

A gentle reminder of "I have control" as they touch something, followed by a positive discussion along the lines of "please leave things alone without telling me first, you are putting me off". But it has to be absolutely clear who is controlling the aircraft, ie, who is waggling the stick, not just who is in command.

[worrab]

Give then a spare ipad with SkyDemon to play with. :)

[9 lives]

I hope this is not really a widespread problem... If it seems to be, a lot of pilots are flying with the wrong other pilot. The pilot flying should be demonstrating enough skill, that another pilot would not think to "take" and control. More experienced right seat pilots should be making allowance, and not getting all excited about perfect flying - certainly not "taking over" to fix it, unless it's life threatening, which takes us back to the first point.

Aside from the aforementioned isolated events, where I had to quickly take control to prevent a crash, 'cause I'd left it too late to talk the pilot flying through a fix for the situation, I have never felt that any need to "share" the flying was needed, other than entirely by happy comradery with the other pilot.

If two very new pilots are doing this to each other - give your heads a shake, and stop it!

This should not be ever allowed to get to the "problem" stage.

[3 Point]

"Also the regular call outs of "you need to be XXX feet" as you pass XYZ etc were somewhat distracting. "

This is another area which can be covered in a pre-flight briefing. It is getting into multi-crew operations and of course, in a multi-crew operation one would expect to have SOPs defining who says and does what and when. If you are going to allow the other pilot to participate you both need to be clear who is doing/saying what.

A pilot making an unexpected call out is a serious problem because it causes the pilot flying to break his concentration and attend to the call out; he may even have to ask supplementary questions to understand what he is being told and thus the period of distraction from the primary task can be quite long.

At critical phases of flight in a multi-crew operation they have the "sterile cockpit" principle which prohibits any non operational and non standard discussion during these times. You could brief the non flying pilot (and indeed passengers) in your single crew operation to respect this principle.

Happy landings

3 Point

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I don't even like instructors fiddling with the GPS when I'm not even using it.

[phiggsbroadband]

Unfortunately there are so many 'Gizmos' for your passenger to play with, some may be quite innocuous...
His... Door, Window, Sun Visor, Squelch control on the intercom, Air Vents and heating controls.. etc.
Then there may be a whole duplicated Instrument Panel.. Altimeter, Attitude Indicator, INS and Photon Torpedoes.. etc.


It's a bit like driving a car, where the other half likes a different radio station. You hope they don't fiddle at a critical stage of the flight.

[Aubrey.]

Door, Window, Sun Visor, Squelch control on the intercom, Air Vents and heating controls.. etc.

Ejector seat...

[JW411]

More than 50 years ago I was a very young sprog straight out of the RAF training machine having been awarded my wings after surviving the Piston Provost, the Vampire and the Varsity.

I was posted to the Argosy which was a brand new addition to the Transport Command fleet.

I went through the conversion course with a very experienced captain who had done several tours on the Lincoln and the Washington.

Our instructor on the OCU was a bit of an old woman and he was forever touching things and "following through" on the controls. My leader was due to be sent solo and I was sat on the jump seat ready to occupy the right seat for this momentous occasion.

So we were on finals with one engine shut down and the propeller feathered and our instructor's hands and feet were everywhere. To my amazement, at about 200 feet Steve extracted a long plastic navigation ruler and whacked our esteemed instructor across the back of both hands.

This got his attention and he let go. After landing, Steve told the man that if he was going to go solo then he wanted to do at least one landing on his own!

We duly dropped his lordship and went solo for a couple of hours. Nothing was ever said.

So, my suggestion is to carry a long plastic navigation ruler. During your pre flight briefing, explain to the irritating person in the right seat what is going to happen if he starts interfering with you aircraft!

[9 lives]

whacked our esteemed instructor across the back of both hands.

Haha! While I was the student receiving flying boat training, I had just touched ever so nicely on the water, and was enjoying the satisfaction of continuing to control the aircraft, as a taildragger pilot might continue to "fly" the aircraft after touching down. My mentor instructor, a person of undeniable mastery of the aircraft had not touched a thing all flight. Indeed, he rather seemed a little bored with my performance.

As I gently decelerated the aircraft on the water, holding precisely the attitude I desired, he said to me: "Let go of the controls". I was not quite ready for this unexpected instruction (as it is totally counter to floatplane technique while on the water). So I delayed my compliance. Obviously ready for my delayed reaction, he slapped my hands off the control wheel at 60 knots, as he repeated "let go of the controls" again.

I complied. And, I learned, and retained. Flying boats are different from floatplanes, and there I was slowing through 50 knots on the water, with no one controlling the plane, to prove it!

[tmmorris]

Chevvron, I've always been a bit concerned that actually cadets are taught to say 'I have control, SIR'. Drumming in the authority gradient from day 1..?

[Fitter2]

Long ago in gliding, the phrases used were 'I have control' and 'It's all yours' which in a noisy environment (tandem open cockpit) meant there was no possible confusion.

With some of the headsets/intercoms I have met, it wouldn't be a bad idea.

[AerocatS2A]

Scoobster, I would absolutely NOT put up with any touching of the controls. Is it ok to make a few corrections to the steering wheel of a car when you are the passenger? Do you think an experienced airline pilot flying as a passenger would waltz into the cockpit (pre 9/11 security doors), adjust the thrust levers, and wander back into the cabin? Regardless of his experience, your friend is a PASSENGER and has all the authority to manipulate the controls as any other passenger unless you have specifically briefed otherwise. As for the altitude calls, I would expect him to stay silent unless you've briefed him otherwise. Going back to the passenger in a car analogy, you wouldn't be chattering to the driver about "orange light ahead, stop sign, you seem a bit fast to smoothly achieve a complete stop here" etc. However it's ok to say "****, lookout car to the right!" in order to avoid an accident. There is a thick line between nattering about minor procedural variances and speaking up to avoid a catastrophe. In my opinion the first is a no-no while the latter is expected.

You are the PiC and they are a passenger, it is not a multi-crew aircraft and you are not trained multi-crew pilots. Multi-crew SOPs only work when both parties are following the same SOPs and know what to expect from one another.

[vancouv]

you wouldn't be chattering to the driver about "orange light ahead, stop sign, you seem a bit fast to smoothly achieve a complete stop here"


You obviously haven't met my wife :ok:

[localflighteast]

I don't know about in the UK but over here there is nothing in the PPL syllabus about passenger management.
I think that's a bit of an oversight TBH.

I'm going to be taking up my first passengers soon and am winging it a bit .
Of course then there's the whole other issue of flying with my OH , who is also a pilot. :)

[darkroomsource]

I think it all goes back to having a chat (preflight brief) with the other pilot about who's PIC, and who does what, before the flight.
Then it's easy to say "ah ah, why you do that?"
But if you don't have that chat, then the other person may have a completely different view of what they're doing, and if you question them they will be surprised.

[9 lives]

But if you don't have that chat, then the other person may have a completely different view of what they're doing,

I'd wonder why... If I board a plane for a flight which I have not "made happen", in someone else's plane, I would not presume to be acting in the capacity of a crew member unless invited to do so. In a single pilot plane, you're either "crew" with a role, because you are the pilot, or the pilot has invited you to participate. Otherwise you are a passenger - don't touch stuff!

[Big Pistons Forever]

One challenge can be when the "passenger " who is a pilot is a lot more experienced than the PIC.

As I am an experienced pilot I have experienced this dynamic. The danger is the PIC can subconsciously feel that the guy in the right seat will bail him out if things are not going well but at the same time the experienced pilot not wanting to confuse the issue may feel reluctant to take over and in a fast moving situation intervention may be fatally delayed.

To get around this issue when flying with a low time, or inexperienced pilot, I tell them I want the ability to take control at any time and that he will relinquish control on demand and without question. I emphasize I will only do this if I believe a dangerous situation is developing. If the PiC is not happy to do this, I absolutely respect that but I will not fly with them.

The other issue is that it is hard for instructors to turn off the instructor gene. Again a preflight discussion is required to find out whether the pilot would like some advice as the flight progresses or he just wants to get on with things . Subject to the ability to take control proviso I am very happy to just enjoy the scenery and keep my mouth shut or provide a bit if help we just need to decide what the pilot wants before takeoff

[Aubrey.]

Before lessons in the final run up to my skills test for my license, my instructor expected a full and thorough pre-flight briefing on exactly what to do and what not to do in the cockpit. He played the role of a passenger and asked dumb questions. I found this approach helped and I've now developed a detailed pre-flight passenger brief that I hope covers every aspect of the flight. I have it written down and go through it with all my pax before a flight, step-by-step just like a checklist. One of the items is I will fly the aircraft and you please don't touch any of the controls unless I ask you to.

[Scoobster]

There are some valid points above and what I should have also mentioned is that the buddy in the RHS was a more experienced pilot. HOWEVER, I am equally trained to a high standard and would absolutely and categorically not put the life of another pilot or my own life in danger.

It was a mutually agreed flight as a buddy and I just did not expect the "fiddling".. However, thinking from a Psychological Perspective I would imagine it is probably hard for another person who is also a pilot not to make comparisons and think they are better. This is just human nature.

What I have learned for the next time is to define clear boundaries and expectations prior to taking off with a thorough pre-flight brief. Or just go up on my own and practice drills, nav, go to new places etc. We did have a brief but clearly on this occasion the controls aspect was not as thorough as it should have been.

I am by no means an experienced pilot with thousands of hours yet but I know myself I would certainly not manipulate controls if not asked.

When I first went up with my Instructor in my first few hours, I used to grab the door handle as the instructor threw the plane about .. Until the instructor piped up "I wish you wouldn't grab onto the door like that! Trust me, I'm not going to let anything happen to you!'.

That was enough for me...

Scoobster

[ChickenHouse]

I take this conversation as a token for the old insight that an experienced pilot is not necessarily a good pilot.


NO-ONE ever fumbles on my controls without asking - neither the A380 captain on the right seat, nor some also-pilot, nor somebody else.
Second, there is always exactly one PIC - never ever is there more then one on the controls.
Third, if controls are to change - there is NO other way as "You have control / I have control".


There may be rare occasions during first flight lessons, where FI or FE is helping to avoid damage to crew and plane, but even than, it should be the absolut exception.

This is one of the crew management golden rules, that I was taught during training lessons long time ago and this is one of the things which I always try to remember.

The good pilots on the right seat know exactly this and that is one of the reasons they are the better ones. A well pilot would, at most, talk and give some comments, if felt the situation allows.

[Broadlands]

A few years ago I was doing some work for an aerial photography outfit. The photographer kept adding his own inputs, eg increasing bank for a better view, all at relatively low level.

I warned him but after a further interruption politely told him that the flight was terminated. back on the ground I explained the facts of life and refused to work for them again.

Summary. Be open to suggestion, but the is only one PIC.

[Heston]

Was going to add my own comment to this thread - but there's no need as the two posts above #31 and #32 say all that needs to be said: Zero tolerance.

[mad_jock]

I think you lot are just being way to polite.

Using basic Scottish crm skills you can sort the problem very easy.

"hoy :mad:, touch one more :mad: thing and I will break your fingers off and ram them right up your :mad: you :mad:"

Problem sorted in my experience.

[Crash one]

My previous post of Crash one
A gentle reminder of "I have control" as they touch something, followed by a positive discussion along the lines of "please leave things alone without telling me first, you are putting me off".

Now seems a bit soft.
I think I'd prefer the Mad Jock approach.

[sunday driver]

Before RHS gets in, slide the seat as far back as it will go.
Problem solved?
SD

[mad_jock]

Honestly there is only one PIC on board don't fanny around just bloody tell them.

[150commuter]

I've had two experiences of this from opposite perspectives.
In one, very soon after take-off, the aircraft slowed alarmingly and despite lowering the nose continued to slow. It took me a moment to realise that it was of course a full flap application. This was though in a C150 where 40 degrees means you're definiltely not going up. Realising that meant problem quickly solved, but not quickly enough to avoid being unpleasantly close to the trees. My companion had decided to adjust the cabin air without telling me first and had knocked down the flap switch which emphasises touch nothing without asking if you're not the PH and especially not at 500ft. Had I done it- It's happened to me once or twice since without any drama- I'd have known where my hand had just been and reacted faster.

The other with another fellow pilot was while he was P1 for a channel crossing. He'd been very fixated on getting his new GPS to work before departure and was still fretting over it during the climb out. It was a rather hazy day so the horizon was poor and a couple of miles out from Folkestone I realised that we were going into a spiral dive. I took control- probably I'm afraid without waiting for his response- and got us S&L and pointing back towards the coast and a decent horizon and then gave it back. He told me later that he'd become disoriented and I'm guessing that was due to focussing on the GPS. I later heard rumours that he'd more than once relied on P2 to get him out of trouble but I hadn't known that and had no reason to doubt his competence. I never flew with him again and thankfully he gave up flying a few months later.

[piperboy84]

If I'm flying with a non pilot:
Preflight instruction is keep you feet flat on the floor during TO and landing, only touch the controls if I offer, and if the weather or vis is dodgy i prefer not to converse on TO or landing

If flying with a pilot with the same qualifications as myself:
Again, feet flat on the floor and that's about it

If I am flying with a seasoned pilot or an instructor but not under instruction:I don't give a preflight, and I will listen to advice but I am PIC and my unsaid expectation is he/she is professional enough not to faff around with anything unless asked or only if it's a life and death deal

That all being said, when I'm a front seat passenger in the car with the better half I constantly piss around with the GPS, radio and any buttons within reach to the point she raps my knuckles and tells me to f**k *ff

[surely not]

Ok I'm not a pilot, but relating this across to other times in my life is it not worth considering the following:

You say he is more experienced than you, so why not grab a coffee with him and tell him you've noticed him 'twiddling/fiddling' and ask if he has some valid input to your flying to make it safer. That way you are deferring to his greater knowledge and experience, plus showing a willingness to learn and NOT being confrontational.

If what he says makes sense then it is a win win in that he feels good helping you, and you feel good because you have improved your airmanship.

If what he says doesn't make sense then just acknowledge his ideas,

In both cases ask him to respect that you are PIC and to speak to you before doing anything to give you the opportunity to make the decision as PIC.

You don't come across as a person who enjoys putting someone in their place harshly, and this way gives a chance for friendship to survive.

[effortless]

Hard lesson learned, never fly with your father if he is a seasoned, old, not current pilot of WW2 vintage. :ouch:

[ShyTorque]

After a routine instructor change during my basic rotary course I latterly flew with one particularly nervous military helicopter instructor. I soon realised that he was over-riding me on the controls during my engine off landings; I'd done enough of them quite successfully with other QHIs to work out what he was up to.

However, as a sprog pilot officer I wasn't quite sure what to do about it. Then one morning I just grew totally tired of it, relaxed on the controls and followed him through; not surprisingly to me, the aircraft landed "all by itself". Once on the ground he began debriefing me on his own landing!

I just turned to him and politely cut him short. I told him that that I hadn't actually flown the aircraft after we had entered auto-rotation. I told him because it had become obvious he wanted to do all the landings, rather than let me practice, I had let him do that one all by himself! He coughed and spluttered and went quite red faced at me but then he broke eye contact and I knew my point was made. Surprisingly, or perhaps not, nothing was ever said outside of the cockpit and the following landings were done with his hands and feet off the controls.