Flying with another pilot who "handles" the controls
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Flying with another pilot who "handles" the controls
Many of you will have had more experienced pilots or buddies in the RHS (other than instructors) and who are also qualified pilots. Even though you are PIC..
I am interested in your thoughts or if you have experienced your friends/buddies/pilots handling controls - though they are not formal co-pilot.
You could be going to Calais or Oxford or Duxford or wherever takes your fancy! or coming back in the circuit...
Throughout the flight you notice your friend/buddy/all round nice guy make subtle control inputs.. like reduce the throttle by a 100rpm because they think you are flying to fast or apply rudder because they think you are not using enough rudder input etc. They are more experienced so you think.. "OK.. do I let this pass or have words.. or am I being arrogant"
Obviously you can learn a lot from another more experienced aviator.. However, am I wrong in saying this is probably better suited to if you back seat with them?
You let the subtle input's slide because they are "more experienced" but conscious if you should say something (although they are a higher license holder).
They notice an aircraft ahead... and say ... Make the radio call like ABC, though you do what your instructor said and as per your training. The intentions are good but would it be fair to say may be off putting?
and finally you pipe up and say .. "I am in command... in a professional and friendly manner"
Have you experienced this before? And how does one or should one deal with this?
In a formal setting I believe this may be referred to as MCC.. but way beyond my scope of knowledge at this humble stage.
Curiosity killed the cat..
Scoobster.
I am interested in your thoughts or if you have experienced your friends/buddies/pilots handling controls - though they are not formal co-pilot.
You could be going to Calais or Oxford or Duxford or wherever takes your fancy! or coming back in the circuit...
Throughout the flight you notice your friend/buddy/all round nice guy make subtle control inputs.. like reduce the throttle by a 100rpm because they think you are flying to fast or apply rudder because they think you are not using enough rudder input etc. They are more experienced so you think.. "OK.. do I let this pass or have words.. or am I being arrogant"
Obviously you can learn a lot from another more experienced aviator.. However, am I wrong in saying this is probably better suited to if you back seat with them?
You let the subtle input's slide because they are "more experienced" but conscious if you should say something (although they are a higher license holder).
They notice an aircraft ahead... and say ... Make the radio call like ABC, though you do what your instructor said and as per your training. The intentions are good but would it be fair to say may be off putting?
and finally you pipe up and say .. "I am in command... in a professional and friendly manner"
Have you experienced this before? And how does one or should one deal with this?
In a formal setting I believe this may be referred to as MCC.. but way beyond my scope of knowledge at this humble stage.
Curiosity killed the cat..
Scoobster.
Last edited by Scoobster; 29th Oct 2014 at 22:38.
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Decide before you take off who does what, and barring a life threatening emergency, stick to it.
I find if one person does nav, comms, the other flies etc, or sometimes it can be made clear that the more experienced guy, can have HELPFULL input.
If that does not work, ask politely to takes ones hand off the throttle please.
I find if one person does nav, comms, the other flies etc, or sometimes it can be made clear that the more experienced guy, can have HELPFULL input.
If that does not work, ask politely to takes ones hand off the throttle please.
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Potentially a very dangerous situation! If you are the pilot in command and another pilot is fiddling with things you have to speak up and you have to be clear and unambiguous.
The best policy would be to anticipate the situation in your pre-flight briefing, eg "I would like you to be responsible for lookout/radio/navigation/writing up the PLOG (whatever you think) and I will be responsible for all flying tasks, if you see something which does not seem right please bring it to my attention and I will decide what to do. Do you have any questions?"
A simple briefing like that sets clear boundaries and should avoid any "task confusion" without giving offence. If the other guy does take offence then you can off-load him or cancel the flight before you even start!
If you are in flight and he is fiddling (whether or not you gave a briefing) then you must speak up and you must be firm. eg "John, please remember that I am flying this leg, if you see something wrong please let me know but do not interfere with the aircraft controls!"
Happy landings
3 Point
The best policy would be to anticipate the situation in your pre-flight briefing, eg "I would like you to be responsible for lookout/radio/navigation/writing up the PLOG (whatever you think) and I will be responsible for all flying tasks, if you see something which does not seem right please bring it to my attention and I will decide what to do. Do you have any questions?"
A simple briefing like that sets clear boundaries and should avoid any "task confusion" without giving offence. If the other guy does take offence then you can off-load him or cancel the flight before you even start!
If you are in flight and he is fiddling (whether or not you gave a briefing) then you must speak up and you must be firm. eg "John, please remember that I am flying this leg, if you see something wrong please let me know but do not interfere with the aircraft controls!"
Happy landings
3 Point
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Great points M.R and 3-Point.
The pre-flight briefing and deciding who does what is certainly a way to set the boundaries from the beginning as you rightly said 3 Point. I have often sat in CPL backseats and seen the Instructor tell the student to do the PAX brief and one of the items on the list is something along the lines of "Please refrain from interfering with the controls etc".
I have wondered though if it is a 2 seat aircraft and your buddy touches the controls, surely they wouldn't be stupid enough to "endanger" the safety of the flight...a) because they are a pilot also b) they are a higher license holder.. and if you firmly state you are PIC (on the ground) - that should nip it in the bud on the ground rather than in the air!
What about situations where pilot buddies in the RHS with good intention call out minimum height information in the air on approach..?
For example, you need to be "xxx feet crossing ABC"... or "you are xxx feet to high at ABC"... to which may elicit a similar response of "I am PIC and don't worry I wont let anything happen to you..or I will deal with it"..
I suspect it is probably always un-nerving if you haven't flown with this particular person before?
The explanation to which on the ground after tends to be ... This is what the co-pilot will do in a large commercial environment.. calling out "minimums". Whatever that means!
Scoobster
The pre-flight briefing and deciding who does what is certainly a way to set the boundaries from the beginning as you rightly said 3 Point. I have often sat in CPL backseats and seen the Instructor tell the student to do the PAX brief and one of the items on the list is something along the lines of "Please refrain from interfering with the controls etc".
I have wondered though if it is a 2 seat aircraft and your buddy touches the controls, surely they wouldn't be stupid enough to "endanger" the safety of the flight...a) because they are a pilot also b) they are a higher license holder.. and if you firmly state you are PIC (on the ground) - that should nip it in the bud on the ground rather than in the air!
What about situations where pilot buddies in the RHS with good intention call out minimum height information in the air on approach..?
For example, you need to be "xxx feet crossing ABC"... or "you are xxx feet to high at ABC"... to which may elicit a similar response of "I am PIC and don't worry I wont let anything happen to you..or I will deal with it"..
I suspect it is probably always un-nerving if you haven't flown with this particular person before?
The explanation to which on the ground after tends to be ... This is what the co-pilot will do in a large commercial environment.. calling out "minimums". Whatever that means!
Scoobster
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The only time these days that I'm flying with another pilot who would think to "control" the aircraft without my request to do so, is when I'm flight testing something (modification approval, not pilot skill). This was a problem before I started doing really thorough preflight briefings. Now (having learned the hard way) I brief:
" I will fly, and I will continue to fly no matter what. If you need to fly, you say "I've got it" and you'll have it - all of it. But, if that happens, the flight test is over, and we're going home - incomplete"
Since I brief that, I've never had a problem. If I were to, I would end the flight, and that pilot would not be right seat to me again.
If you are willing to have the other pilot touch things, discuss it first.
On the obverse, I can think of three times that, having left it too long anyway, I suddenly announced "I've got it", and took over, without negotiation. At that point, I considered it to be life and death. Apparently, for whatever reason, the other pilot did not disagree, as nothing was ever said.
But, I go to a lot of effort to have the the other pilot fly as much as possible. It's only the very demanding things where I might request to fly, by advanced briefing, and agreement. A very tight landing into a small lake, of go around, for example.
" I will fly, and I will continue to fly no matter what. If you need to fly, you say "I've got it" and you'll have it - all of it. But, if that happens, the flight test is over, and we're going home - incomplete"
Since I brief that, I've never had a problem. If I were to, I would end the flight, and that pilot would not be right seat to me again.
If you are willing to have the other pilot touch things, discuss it first.
On the obverse, I can think of three times that, having left it too long anyway, I suddenly announced "I've got it", and took over, without negotiation. At that point, I considered it to be life and death. Apparently, for whatever reason, the other pilot did not disagree, as nothing was ever said.
But, I go to a lot of effort to have the the other pilot fly as much as possible. It's only the very demanding things where I might request to fly, by advanced briefing, and agreement. A very tight landing into a small lake, of go around, for example.
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When I fly with someone I stress to them that I want them to alert me to anything that they think is wrong, that they disagree with and/or that is causing them concern.
I also retain the "I have control/You have control" that I learnt in lesson 1 of my PPL. If they made any adjustments to power or flight control inputs without asking first (for lack of better phrasing) I would immediately be telling them that I was controlling and that they should draw my attention to it but not act themselves, and if they continued to do this I would be considering not flying with them again.
2 people controlling an aircraft when neither knows who is in control is a very bad thing whether it is two PPLs in a 152 or a commercial crew in a jet (look at the 447 accident).
I also retain the "I have control/You have control" that I learnt in lesson 1 of my PPL. If they made any adjustments to power or flight control inputs without asking first (for lack of better phrasing) I would immediately be telling them that I was controlling and that they should draw my attention to it but not act themselves, and if they continued to do this I would be considering not flying with them again.
2 people controlling an aircraft when neither knows who is in control is a very bad thing whether it is two PPLs in a 152 or a commercial crew in a jet (look at the 447 accident).
The only time these days that I'm flying with another pilot who would think to "control" the aircraft without my request to do so, is when I'm flight testing something (modification approval, not pilot skill). This was a problem before I started doing really thorough preflight briefings. Now (having learned the hard way) I brief:
" I will fly, and I will continue to fly no matter what. If you need to fly, you say "I've got it" and you'll have it - all of it. But, if that happens, the flight test is over, and we're going home - incomplete"
" I will fly, and I will continue to fly no matter what. If you need to fly, you say "I've got it" and you'll have it - all of it. But, if that happens, the flight test is over, and we're going home - incomplete"
One thing you have to remember is that mosts PPLs have had no training in CRM, nobody has discussed issues like cockpit authority gradient with them, and they really don't understand how dangerous these behaviours can be.
I do invite people in the right hand seat to advise me of anything that concerns them at any point, but that they must ONLY do so verbally.
G
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Boy did I just have the following drilled into me during training
Item number 1 FAA Commercial PTS Special Emphasis Areas
Item number 1 FAA Commercial PTS Special Emphasis Areas
Positive Exchange of Flight Controls
During flight training, there must always be a clear understanding
between students and flight instructors of who has control of the
aircraft. Prior to flight, a briefing should be conducted that includes
the procedure for the exchange of flight controls. A positive threestep
process in the exchange of flight controls between pilots is a
proven procedure and one that is strongly recommended.
When the instructor wishes the student to take control of the aircraft,
he or she will say, “You have the flight controls.” The student
acknowledges immediately by saying, “I have the flight controls.”
The flight instructor again says, “You have the flight controls.” When
control is returned to the instructor, follow the same procedure. A
visual check is recommended to verify that the exchange has
occurred. There should never by any doubt as to who is flying the
aircraft
During flight training, there must always be a clear understanding
between students and flight instructors of who has control of the
aircraft. Prior to flight, a briefing should be conducted that includes
the procedure for the exchange of flight controls. A positive threestep
process in the exchange of flight controls between pilots is a
proven procedure and one that is strongly recommended.
When the instructor wishes the student to take control of the aircraft,
he or she will say, “You have the flight controls.” The student
acknowledges immediately by saying, “I have the flight controls.”
The flight instructor again says, “You have the flight controls.” When
control is returned to the instructor, follow the same procedure. A
visual check is recommended to verify that the exchange has
occurred. There should never by any doubt as to who is flying the
aircraft
I find that Instructors in the r/h seat on non-instructional flights are the worst for fiddling. I had to remind one that I had 5 times the hours that he had, and didn't require assistance. 
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Appreciate the input.
The "I have control"... "You have control" element was followed to the tee and to the law of the land... but I just didn't anticipate the "fiddling" in the air.
The brief was also given but no "designation of duties" and where I obviously fell short of defining the clear boundaries.
Also the regular call outs of "you need to be XXX feet" as you pass XYZ etc were somewhat distracting.
I am learning something new everyday and will implement some of the strategies that have been discussed here and my initial training.
Many Thanks.
Scoobster
The "I have control"... "You have control" element was followed to the tee and to the law of the land... but I just didn't anticipate the "fiddling" in the air.
The brief was also given but no "designation of duties" and where I obviously fell short of defining the clear boundaries.
Also the regular call outs of "you need to be XXX feet" as you pass XYZ etc were somewhat distracting.
I am learning something new everyday and will implement some of the strategies that have been discussed here and my initial training.
Many Thanks.
Scoobster
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A gentle reminder of "I have control" as they touch something, followed by a positive discussion along the lines of "please leave things alone without telling me first, you are putting me off". But it has to be absolutely clear who is controlling the aircraft, ie, who is waggling the stick, not just who is in command.
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I hope this is not really a widespread problem... If it seems to be, a lot of pilots are flying with the wrong other pilot. The pilot flying should be demonstrating enough skill, that another pilot would not think to "take" and control. More experienced right seat pilots should be making allowance, and not getting all excited about perfect flying - certainly not "taking over" to fix it, unless it's life threatening, which takes us back to the first point.
Aside from the aforementioned isolated events, where I had to quickly take control to prevent a crash, 'cause I'd left it too late to talk the pilot flying through a fix for the situation, I have never felt that any need to "share" the flying was needed, other than entirely by happy comradery with the other pilot.
If two very new pilots are doing this to each other - give your heads a shake, and stop it!
This should not be ever allowed to get to the "problem" stage.
Aside from the aforementioned isolated events, where I had to quickly take control to prevent a crash, 'cause I'd left it too late to talk the pilot flying through a fix for the situation, I have never felt that any need to "share" the flying was needed, other than entirely by happy comradery with the other pilot.
If two very new pilots are doing this to each other - give your heads a shake, and stop it!
This should not be ever allowed to get to the "problem" stage.
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"Also the regular call outs of "you need to be XXX feet" as you pass XYZ etc were somewhat distracting. "
This is another area which can be covered in a pre-flight briefing. It is getting into multi-crew operations and of course, in a multi-crew operation one would expect to have SOPs defining who says and does what and when. If you are going to allow the other pilot to participate you both need to be clear who is doing/saying what.
A pilot making an unexpected call out is a serious problem because it causes the pilot flying to break his concentration and attend to the call out; he may even have to ask supplementary questions to understand what he is being told and thus the period of distraction from the primary task can be quite long.
At critical phases of flight in a multi-crew operation they have the "sterile cockpit" principle which prohibits any non operational and non standard discussion during these times. You could brief the non flying pilot (and indeed passengers) in your single crew operation to respect this principle.
Happy landings
3 Point
This is another area which can be covered in a pre-flight briefing. It is getting into multi-crew operations and of course, in a multi-crew operation one would expect to have SOPs defining who says and does what and when. If you are going to allow the other pilot to participate you both need to be clear who is doing/saying what.
A pilot making an unexpected call out is a serious problem because it causes the pilot flying to break his concentration and attend to the call out; he may even have to ask supplementary questions to understand what he is being told and thus the period of distraction from the primary task can be quite long.
At critical phases of flight in a multi-crew operation they have the "sterile cockpit" principle which prohibits any non operational and non standard discussion during these times. You could brief the non flying pilot (and indeed passengers) in your single crew operation to respect this principle.
Happy landings
3 Point
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Unfortunately there are so many 'Gizmos' for your passenger to play with, some may be quite innocuous...
His... Door, Window, Sun Visor, Squelch control on the intercom, Air Vents and heating controls.. etc.
Then there may be a whole duplicated Instrument Panel.. Altimeter, Attitude Indicator, INS and Photon Torpedoes.. etc.
It's a bit like driving a car, where the other half likes a different radio station. You hope they don't fiddle at a critical stage of the flight.
His... Door, Window, Sun Visor, Squelch control on the intercom, Air Vents and heating controls.. etc.
Then there may be a whole duplicated Instrument Panel.. Altimeter, Attitude Indicator, INS and Photon Torpedoes.. etc.
It's a bit like driving a car, where the other half likes a different radio station. You hope they don't fiddle at a critical stage of the flight.
More than 50 years ago I was a very young sprog straight out of the RAF training machine having been awarded my wings after surviving the Piston Provost, the Vampire and the Varsity.
I was posted to the Argosy which was a brand new addition to the Transport Command fleet.
I went through the conversion course with a very experienced captain who had done several tours on the Lincoln and the Washington.
Our instructor on the OCU was a bit of an old woman and he was forever touching things and "following through" on the controls. My leader was due to be sent solo and I was sat on the jump seat ready to occupy the right seat for this momentous occasion.
So we were on finals with one engine shut down and the propeller feathered and our instructor's hands and feet were everywhere. To my amazement, at about 200 feet Steve extracted a long plastic navigation ruler and whacked our esteemed instructor across the back of both hands.
This got his attention and he let go. After landing, Steve told the man that if he was going to go solo then he wanted to do at least one landing on his own!
We duly dropped his lordship and went solo for a couple of hours. Nothing was ever said.
So, my suggestion is to carry a long plastic navigation ruler. During your pre flight briefing, explain to the irritating person in the right seat what is going to happen if he starts interfering with you aircraft!
I was posted to the Argosy which was a brand new addition to the Transport Command fleet.
I went through the conversion course with a very experienced captain who had done several tours on the Lincoln and the Washington.
Our instructor on the OCU was a bit of an old woman and he was forever touching things and "following through" on the controls. My leader was due to be sent solo and I was sat on the jump seat ready to occupy the right seat for this momentous occasion.
So we were on finals with one engine shut down and the propeller feathered and our instructor's hands and feet were everywhere. To my amazement, at about 200 feet Steve extracted a long plastic navigation ruler and whacked our esteemed instructor across the back of both hands.
This got his attention and he let go. After landing, Steve told the man that if he was going to go solo then he wanted to do at least one landing on his own!
We duly dropped his lordship and went solo for a couple of hours. Nothing was ever said.
So, my suggestion is to carry a long plastic navigation ruler. During your pre flight briefing, explain to the irritating person in the right seat what is going to happen if he starts interfering with you aircraft!
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whacked our esteemed instructor across the back of both hands.
As I gently decelerated the aircraft on the water, holding precisely the attitude I desired, he said to me: "Let go of the controls". I was not quite ready for this unexpected instruction (as it is totally counter to floatplane technique while on the water). So I delayed my compliance. Obviously ready for my delayed reaction, he slapped my hands off the control wheel at 60 knots, as he repeated "let go of the controls" again.
I complied. And, I learned, and retained. Flying boats are different from floatplanes, and there I was slowing through 50 knots on the water, with no one controlling the plane, to prove it!