Air Cadets grounded?

[Arclite01]

Cats Five

I believe Schleicher were not willing to give up their entire production run for 1 customer for a long period of time and thereby jeopardise their other customer base (civvy world) who would buy something else maybe. Also I believe at that time they already had a waiting list (still do). Questions were asked about licence production (see my previous post) but never came to anything............

The K21 was more labour intensive to produce than the Grob 103 due to Production techniques and sandwich construction - ergo slower to produce in volume.

The Vanguards we operated were bog standard off the shelf items.

Whether Schleicher also were not willing to deal with a pernickity customer I really don't know...............

I think they may have missed the long view though. The sales is a small bit, the ongoing support and spares would have been huge. The Vikings have been in service now for nearly 30 years..................... it would have been a long term profitable deal.

Which raises another issue in my head............. Why we keep this 'relatively' cheap kit for such a long time. In industry many businesses replace their kit on a 3 - 5 year cycle to accommodate new technology, realise the maximum value of asset resale and to avoid issues around major services and fatigue life. The Air Cadet operation would really be a good candidate for this. One of the few PFI initiatives that might work - if kit replacement & servicing contracts were bundled together..............

And since the Landrovers are on leasing arrangements as part of the 'white fleet' why are we not doing the same for the winches ??, it's just a finance arrangement after all............

Discuss...................

Arc

[Wander00]

Many years ago, as a corporate planner in local government (there's an oxymoron) I worked on vehicle replacement policy - depreciation curve plotted against maintenance cost - where they crossed was replacement point, ISTR 4-5 years. Arclite, IMHO you make a good point

[Arclite01]

..............and actually I smile to myself when I always refer to them as 'the new glass gliders' in conversations :-)

I am an officially an 'old git'

Arc

[cats_five]

Cats Five

I believe Schleicher were not willing to give up their entire production run for 1 customer for a long period of time and thereby jeopardise their other customer base (civvy world) who would buy something else maybe.
<snip>

And possibly the ATC weren't willing to accept a delivery schedule that would see them getting 1 in 2 or 3 of Scheicher's output.

[Mechta]

Which raises another issue in my head............. Why we keep this 'relatively' cheap kit for such a long time. In industry many businesses replace their kit on a 3 - 5 year cycle to accommodate new technology, realise the maximum value of asset resale and to avoid issues around major services and fatigue life. The Air Cadet operation would really be a good candidate for this. One of the few PFI initiatives that might work - if kit replacement & servicing contracts were bundled together..............Had there been a bit more competition in the training glider market, this would have been a great idea. Modern two seaters tend to hold their value, and if by buying a job lot a significant discount had been possible, then the high resale value would have meant minimal depreciation.

As it turned out, if Schleicher didn't want to play, so Grob were the only contender and probably knew it, so why would they discount?

Had the original purchase of these gliders not been largely driven by having to spend a 'use it or lose it' tranche of money, things may have been so different.

[Arclite01]

Cats Five

That is also a valid point - a re-equipment plan though, means larger numbers in the military world and they place an order and want it as soon as possible, a trickle feed is not ideal for them. And based on 24 a year = 2 per month for an average the re-equipment programme takes approx 5 years for 100 aircraft.

This means on a leaseback the oldest ones would just be getting replaced as the last new ones arrive. All OK once you are into a cycle of continuous rolling replacement but bad news if you are the back of the queue first time round.

Additionally the real issue is Schleicher only build about 30 a year (since they have other models in production and only limited factory floor space) so you would be lucky to get 10 of those so the refresh would take 10 years and not 5. I am assuming that Scheicher have done this for years and are happily profitable and efficient to the levels they are pleased with.

Finally, the upside is that the K21 has just been lifed to 18000 hours so at current average use rates they would last until the end of this century at least !! (if we were crazy and wanted to buy them to keep ad infinitum).

The powers that be need to realise that they are not in a flooded market and are not ordering or operating A400M or C-130J, but a simple sailplane with a potential simple procurement lifecycle. The Motorglider replacement programme could also follow a similar profile but with a slightly higher hours profile.

The Canadian Air Cadets appear to operate on CF plates - why not put ours on G plates ? - bring them under EASA and off we go..............

I believe that there may be slightly more of a political issue now though as I often see Vikings and Vigilants included in overall RAF Aircraft numbers - is this part of the game to make the RAF look larger on paper than it really is ??

Arc

Another thought. Why bother with the winch launch fleet at all. There are less and less stations willing to accept a Winch Operation (FOD risk, cables etc). Why not just standardise on one type (Motorglider) and put them out on detachments to local airfields for weekends so that units don't have to travel too far for BGT and AEG ??

[Mechta]

Another thought. Why bother with the winch launch fleet at all. There are less and less stations willing to accept a Winch Operation (FOD risk, cables etc). Why not just standardise on one type (Motorglider) and put them out on detachments to local airfields for weekends so that units don't have to travel too far for BGT and AEG ??



Sites such as Kenley don't allow power flying.
Gliding allows cadets to hear and feel what the air is doing around the airframe without the distraction of an engine.
Pushing gliders around keeps cadets warm and busy when not flying.
A winch is a lot cheaper to operate and maintain than an aero engine. Fuel cost per launch is typically less than £0.50

[Arclite01]

Hi Mechta

Not included in that cost figure of £0.50p is the cost of the airfield and associated infrastructure. I am aware of the benefits of the Winch type operation to the Air Cadets and used to fly at Kenley :)

However since a lot of this thread talks about root and branch reform I thought I'd ask the question......, float the idea..........., run it up the flagpole and see who salutes it etc............... (Management speak)

Potentially you could base 3 x Motorgliders at Redhill and achieve the flying task more efficiently. The following week/month do it at Manston (errr sorry) Headcorn or Lydd and the following week/month at White Waltham (say). Maintenance could be a la MGSP with routine servicing done at a central regional area (say Halton or Abingdon). With some thought it could really fly...............:O

Cost benefits from reduced travel and using someone else's airfield infrastructure to operate could really bring the costs down......................... 4 regionalised flights maybe for ownership and maintenance - say:

Abingdon or Halton (S&E)
St Athan (S & W)
Syerston (Midland & North & CGS)
Lossiemouth or Condor (Scotland & NI)


Arc

[Flying_Anorak]

One thing not mentioned in the recent posts, but which is very applicable here is that there aren't really many new training gliders on the market these days.

As the Chairman & Director of a civvie gliding club (on an RAF airfield!) we have the dilemma of wanting to replace our aged K13s (the best training glider) but with what? The only real options are the K21 (aged and not that great for training in that it can't easily be spun without the removable spin kit added), the Grob Twin II & Twin III (can't be spun or aerobated without mods due to various ADs and a limited cockpit weight) and the new DG1001 Club (expensive and long delivery as the USAF & Aussies are buying up most of the production run). Outside of these you have the PW6, Puchatz (limited airframe life and a tendency to spin off a failed winch launch) or its new successor the as yet unproven Perchoz.

Having trawled Aero this year I think the glider manufacturers are missing a trick, we desperately need a new affordable modern trainer glider as without this where will the next generation of Ventus 3, EB28 or JS1 pilots come from? The sport is polarising - manufacturers will tell you that it takes almost as much time, materials and effort to build an ASG29 as it does a K21 so why not concentrate on building the one that you can sell for more than twice the price of the other!

Sadly one day they'll realise that as us glider pilots get older and fall off the perch, there wont be the aircraft clubs like ours need to train the next generation of pilots. So really, if the ATC want to get back into gliding, overhauling their fleet is the only realistic way forward if you rule out just flying the Vikings as they are under the BGA CAMO.

[cats_five]

The only fault with the K21 is that it won't spin with most crews without tail weights. Otherwise it flies well, it's easy to handle on the ground, it's robust, and at 12,000 hours it can be relifed to get another 6,000. You can't buy a new Grob these days an as you say the PW6 & Perkoz don't have the track record at present.

I have had a flight in a Perkoz, it flies beautifully but in my view had plenty of ergonomic issues. People who looked at it while it was at our club thought it looked fragile in key areas, and it wasn't as easy to handle on the ground. OTOH with the 20m wingtips it has an excellent best L/D.

[Arclite01]

The Perkoz looks like a slightly refined Puchacz. And not particularly asthetically pleasing.

I agree with all the comments from Flying_Anorak.

Lets hope the ACO get the Vikings back up and running quickly then.

Arc

[cats_five]

The Perkoz looks like a slightly refined Puchacz. And not particularly asthetically pleasing.
<snip>


In my view both the Perkoz and Puchaz fail the 'if it looks right it is right' test. Of course that's not the be-all and end-all of design, but IMHO they are ugly gliders.

[Arclite01]

The Puchaz and Perkoz are too short coupled for me to ever look elegant.

For the Air Cadet fleet spinning is not taught routinely beyond the incipient stage anyway (it is at the centre to instructors)

So K21 spin performance is not an issue there.

Anyway all hypothetical - they will never have them. Lets get the Vikings up and running again. I am now thinking of the organisational and staff challenges the VGS is going to face to deliver the Flying Taskings when the Aircraft do come back on line :( Nightmare is one word..............

Arc

[A and C]

I see no reason whatsoever why the UK tax payer should pick up the bill for a new fleet of gliders when it has a fleet of gliders that can do the task.

The problem is that the MoD took their eye of the ball and let a company fail to maintain the fleet and keep records to show the compliance of their maintenance and repair.

The result is that some how compliance with proper maintenance practices has to be demonstrated before these gliders can take to the air, some of this can be done by inspection but some repairs will have to be re-repaired if they don't come up to standard.

The assumption that at one moment these aircraft were servicable and as soon as the MAA stepped is they instantly became unserviceable is a distortion of the facts, I have no doubt that most of the gliders were not unsafe to fly in the short term however their was no way that the maintenance oversight was up to the standard required by the RAF to fly air cadets. This fact left the MAA with no alternative but to stop the fleet from flying.

There is little doubt that the RAF have been slow to get on top of this problem ( air cadet gliding being not the top priority in the nations defense ) but now they have a team in place who are dedicated to this task, for most of them it is their first experience of aircraft of this sort of construction and so they are on a cautious learning curve and wisely not rushing into things and making ill considered decisions.

It is easy to be critical of the speed of progress of the re- activation team but the real criticism should be directed to those who's maintenance practice fell well short of that required and precipitated this situation in the first place.

[Wander00]

But surely not all aircraft showed evidence of damage and repair (whether or not correctly carried out and recorded). Surely therefore a percentage of the fleet remained airworthy and could have continued flying, albeit meeting only part of the task. As it has turned out the baby seems to have followed the bathwater down the plug hole and no-one is flying, and apart from disappointed cadets we seem now to be bereft of instructors. Could make a "Fawlty Towers" programme on that basis. From the outside could make the basis of an interesting IOT exercise - far too simple for staff college

[Arclite01]

@Wander

I think the real thing was 'they didn't know what they didn't know' hence the blanket grounding while they baselined the situation. That meant a survey of each airframe - no small task.

You can kind of understand that.

I was concerned about the supposed lack of documentation of the repairs and the poor quality of some repairs (just paraphrasing some comments on this thread). Weren't the repairs all done 'in house' by the GRP bay at Syerston ?

Arc

[ExAscoteer]

Surely therefore a percentage of the fleet remained airworthy and could have continued flying, albeit meeting only part of the task. As it has turned out the baby seems to have followed the bathwater down the plug hole and no-one is flying

Wander, would you commit aviation in an aircraft where you couldn't be sure of its Rectification/Modification state? Because I certainly wouldn't!

More pertinently, would you allow your child to be a passenger in such an aircraft?

One accident, just one, and that would be the end of Air Cadet gliding forever.



As an ATC Sqn Cdr it is extremely frustrating that I can't get my lads and lasses airborne. However this is compounded by the move of 5 AEF from Wyton to Wittering and the stupidity of not having Air Traffickers at the W/E which is generally when ATC Cdts (as opposed to CCF RAF Cdts) can go flying.

As a result, not only have we had no Gliding for 18 months, we have had no Powered Flying for in excess of a year. It's a bloody shambles, the result being that Cdt retention becomes extremely problematic.

[cats_five]

I take it the documentation and maybe the maintenance also isn't up to BGA standards... I've only realised from reading this thread that the gliders weren't on the G register, despite having seen some of them in action...

[teeteringhead]

The problem is that the MoD took their eye off the ball and let a company fail to maintain the fleet and keep records to show the compliance of their maintenance and repair. To be fair (ish) to the contractors, my understanding is that some of the iffy engineering practices date back to "blue suited" days.

[DaveUnwin]

"That meant a survey of each airframe - no small task".

But, individually - not that big a task either. Remember, the Viking T.1 is not a Hawk T.1. It's a sailplane that doesn't even have flaps, and the U/C is fixed. Was it really that difficult to look at the records of each aircraft, and starting with the ones that had never been pranged de-rig each one, take a really good look at it and then release it to service? Surely after 18 months that would've provided the ATC with at least some serviceable aircraft?

[Arclite01]

@DaveUnwin

That's the thing as I understand it - they didn't have records of what had been 'pranged' or not. Which meant a full survey.

I agree these are non-complex airframes. But MoD has it's own processes and the ACO has to follow them to obtain release to service.

That's the world they are in................

Arc

[DaveUnwin]

Ahhhh, thanks for that Arc - your post does help make sense of something I've been trying to wrap my head around.
If they literally don't know which ones have had a bump and which haven't then that really would complicate matters.

[Bigpants]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slingsby_T.21

Just a suggestion but in doing some digging I noticed a handful of T21s were self built and felt Cadets would get far more value from gliding if they actually built a few of their own aircraft under supervision.

Value coming from team skills, tool skills, patience, persistence and a better understanding of aero engineering and aerodynamics.

Sadly I could not find a suitable training glider kit and I assume certification cost and complexity plus liability issues have stopped this.

So has anyone got the plans for a T21, a few aluminium struts, plywood and canvass? Would the BGA, MOD and MAA object or co operate?

[Arclite01]

Bigpants

You clearly don't undertand the ACO Gliding setup at all...................either equipment or objectives.

Arc

[Bigpants]

Do you understand the difference between past and future?

Royal Aeronautical Society | Ercall Wood (http://aerosociety.com/Careers-Education/buildaplane/ercallwood)

The grounding is an opportunity to think of new ideas for getting cadets engaged and back in the air. It would be a pity if nothing new was considered.

[Arclite01]

@Bigpants

The ACO Gliding Operation is a military training operation, with a structured and defined training programme.

The introduction of Random, non-standard, amateur built aircraft would not really achieve anything towards the flying task in the ACO Gliding world.

That's not to say that the encouragement of Cadets in other aviation activities is not required or beneficial and I am a supporter of the LAA YES. Just its output wouldn't fit into the VGS setup.

IMHO

Arc

Hat and coat....................

[Mandator]

I have heard that a large number of 'gliders' have started to appear at a well-know aerospace company located close to Cambridge city centre. The said company is also the Design Authority for the Viking glider.

[cats_five]

I suspect they have been looking very carefully at the airframes and anything & everything has to be checked against the paperwork, so whilst they don't have motors, flaps & retractable u/c there is still plenty to have to check. An annual inspection can be done in a day on a simple glider, but this is much more.

I have no idea if all repairs or just undocumented or incorrectly documented ones have to be replaced...

[brokenlink]

Mandator, that is my understanding as well. Maybe some employees who lurk on hear may be able to help?

[romeo bravo]

Course they won't Brokenlink, you should know better than that. := :oh:

[The B Word]

There is an even quicker answer...

The RAF has 7x Gliding Clubs with the RAFGSA, 14x Flying Clubs with the RAFFCA and 1x Microlight Club with the RAFMA. So that is 22x CAA approved recreational clubs on MOD property and funded in part via the RAF Sports Board.

Now that Introductory Flights are allowed by the CAA/EASA by qualified pilots on type without remuneration but the cost of the flight paid, then the Air Cadet Org could fly an awful lot of Cadets in very short order with very little effort - IF they dropped their ridiculous stance on the experience requirements:

The pilot holds at least a PPL and has a minimum of 500 hours flying experience, of which 300 hours, and at least 60 hours in the last 12 months, are as first pilot.
h. The flights are not to include any of the following:
(1) Stalling and spinning.
(2) Aerobatics (but see para 4).
(3) Low flying.
(4) Practice forced landings.
(5) Practice emergencies of any kind.
(6) Short landings.

RELAXATION OF CONDITIONS
3. A Regional Commandant or CCF Sect Cdr may, based on his knowledge of the pilot and aircraft, relax the criteria at 2g above to a minimum in one or all of the following criteria:
a. Total hours: 250.
b. Total First Pilot hours: 150.
c. Hours on type: 20.
d. Currency: 10 hours in past 3 months, and 3 landings in past month on the aircraft type in which the cadet is to fly.

4. Additionally, a Regional Commandant or CCF Sect Cdr may, based on his knowledge of the pilot and aircraft, permit aerobatics to be carried out provided that:
a. The pilot holds a current Aerobatic Certificate issued by the Aircraft Operators and Pilots Association (AOPA), or an equivalent approved authorisation.
b. Parachutes are worn.
c.All recoveries are completed not below 3,000 feet above ground level.

There is no way that the average VGS pilot has 500hrs total time and 300hrs as PIC and 60hrs in the last 12 months. So why this ridiculous requirement for a qulaified pilot, many with an ICAO standard licence?

It is over-controlling gold-plating idiocy like this that is killing the Air Cdet Organisation plus when the Govt is trying to expand the whole Cadet Forces in general. When you consider RAF based recreational/sporting flying clubs they are IDEAL in that they are assured by the CAA and suoervised on the military estate to their own requirements. If they don't like what they see they can stop it immediately. Plus, there is an untapped resource to help the Clubs with the VGS staff that are also unable to fly at present.

Beggars belief!

B Word

[BBK]

B word

I don't have the statistics to hand but the safety record of the VGSs is, probably(?) far better than the equivalent record for GSAs and civilian clubs.... and I've witnessed the latter in action!

The VGS world is far more regulated and for good reason.

BBK

[The B Word]

BBK

Seeing as we're only intersted in 'risk to life', I am not aware of a single fatality in the RAFGSA, RAFFCA and RAFMA over the past 15 years of my knowledge of such organisations. Each Club has around 100 members (on average) and so 2,200 pilots have flown at least 22,000 hrs per year across all of the Clubs. Multiply that by 15 years and you get 330,000 flying hours without a fatality.

The current MoD fatal accident rate is around 1 per 50,000 flying hours not including operational losses. So this type of flying is at least 6 times safer than normal RAF trg flying.

So go figure...:ok:

[BBK]

B word

I was taking about VGS ops, not MOD. Tragically cadets have died in recent years but they were in Tutor aircraft not VGS ones. Not that I want to get into some sick contest about such matters.

However, at my local airfield the safety record of the VGS had been excellent in no small part to very close supervision and the level of training and oversight by CGS and CFS.

BBK

[A and C]

In your post #520 you state that " was it really that difficult to look at the records of each aircraft and starting with the ones that have never been pranged or de-rigged..............?"

This shows that you have still failed to grasp the problem because these records had not been kept by the contractor and what has been kept are very incomplete, repairs have not been properly recorded both from a parts used and a compliance with approved data point of view and some have no record at all !

Add to this the fact that unlike metal airframes there is very little visual evidence of a repair with GRP construction
If the methods and techniques I was taught as an apprentice ( for large metal aircraft with GRP parts) had been used these these are totally unsuitable for GRP primary construction. As both the type certificate holder and maintaince contractor both come from a big metal aircraft with GRP bits background and the repairs have not been recorded properly it is not possible to see if first the glider has had repair work or if it has he correct techniques have been used without very close inspection by experienced staff.

Trying to use aircraft de-rigging as a filter for aircraft damage is unsound, gliders are de-rigged on a daily basis and so de-rigging records ( if they are available and I doubt it) will only tell you that the aircraft was de-rigged but not why. Most gliders arrive at the maintenance facility in a trailer for the routine annual check....... It is not an indicator of damage so to use de-rigging as an indicator of posable damage would be at the very least misleading.

[DaveUnwin]

A&C, you say to me;- "In your post #520 you state that " was it really that difficult to look at the records of each aircraft and starting with the ones that have never been pranged or de-rigged..............?"

This shows that you have still failed to grasp the problem because these records had not been kept by the contractor and what has been kept are very incomplete, repairs have not been properly recorded both from a parts used and a compliance with approved data point of view and some have no record at all !"

Actually, it doesn't. What it actually shows is that either you didn't read, or don't understand, what I wrote.

Have another go, (but you don't need to give me a lecture about de-rigging. I've been gliding for 30 years and am an instructor, have owned several gliders and used to be the Manager of the Black Mountains GC).

Also, Arc has already explained about the shocking record keeping. It is truly a massive FUBAR, and when you combine it with the quite incredible time its taken to STILL not return ONE single solitary sailplane to service well, words fail me.

[thing]

It is truly a massive FUBAR, and when you combine it with the quite incredible time its taken to STILL not return ONE single solitary sailplane to service well, words fail me.

As a flyer who has a foot in RAFFCA, a civilian gliding club and a civvy GA airfield it seems to be symptomatic of the way things are with MOD these days. I think they would be happy just to ground the whole of the MOD reg fleet just in case something amiss happens.

[DaveUnwin]

Thing, I suspect you've just hit the nail on the thumb! I must admit I've been starting to think exactly that. Does the MoD even want Air Cadets to fly? When you consider this whole sorry saga and realise that, after 18 months, they've not managed to return one sailplane to service, it is hard not to get just a little suspicious.

[Tingger]

Some Vigilants are flying and have been since January and a pair of Vikings have been completed and await transport back to Syerston, just to clarify.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Add to that the ongoing programme with Skylaunch to dieselise the winches (or is that keep on keeping on 'cos the money's already spent?)...

[DaveUnwin]

"....... a pair of Vikings have been completed and await transport back to Syerston,"


Why are they 'awaiting transport'? Why not just stick them in their trailers and tow them back to Syerston? How hard can it be for goodness sake, or is an 18-month 'pause' not enough?
Genuine question. When I ran the BMGC, as soon as a glider was ready for collection, we collected it!

[FleurDeLys]

What has become of all the ACCGS instructors? Are they still there during the pause waiting for aircraft to fly? I suspect many I knew years ago have retired in any event, but wondering what 'human infrastructure' is left?

[thing]

Why are they 'awaiting transport'?

Probably waiting for someone to sign off the risk...maybe the trailers have no servicing records either.

As I wrote that I meant it in jest but on reflection I'm not so sure.

[ninefromten]

Lots of records on the new trailers, mostly for breaking gliders when used!!

[Frelon]

Add to that the ongoing programme with Skylaunch to dieselise the winches

They may want to reconsider that option in light of the current Volkswagen revelations :D I wonder whether the MOD have asked Skylaunch for the results of their diesel emission tests?

Don't want to put anybody at risk from diesel fumes :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[UV]

Expect an announcement in next 7-10 days.
OK., times up EnigmAviation!

[Lima Juliet]

The announcement is....









...there are still no gliders!

[EnigmAviation]

Ooops, sorry I was working on my idea of 7 days ! They've probably found that it's too dangerous to fly without CO detectors in Vikings !

[Corporal Clott]

I heard a rumour about the CO detectors in Vigilants the other day? The rumour was that the sticky CO detectors (fitted to just about every light aircraft in the country) were not to be affixed to the instrument panel as this was not a cleared modification; but it's OK if you carry them in your pocket (where they probably won't work due to location, enclosure and pocket lint!).

Please tell me this is not true, otherwise there is something badly wrong with our risk-based culture in Air Cadet gliding land! If so, is it time to canx Air Cadet gliding and start again, from scratch. If they can currently teach a dozen or so service personnel to glide at RAF Halton a week in civvy gliders using service personnel and civil servants under the Adventurous Training lot, then why can't the guys at Syerston do something similar. It smacks of poor leadership to me...

CPL Clott

[thing]

If so, is it time to canx Air Cadet gliding and start again

It's the starting again I think they are trying to avoid...

[pitotheat]

What about binning the aircraft and teaching the course on the simulators, you then have a pool of recruits to become Reaper Pilots which is where the RAF is heading anyway.

[ACW VGL]

The first aim of the Air Cadets is to: 'Promote and encourage a practical interest in aviation and the Royal Air Force among young people'. 'Practical' used to mean regular trips in AEF and VGS aircraft, and training to first solo and beyond with the VGS. I would welcome a statement from HQAC on the actual impact on the Corps of current 2 FTS task delivery.

[bobward]

Back in August I went to a national conference for ATC Civilian Instructors at HQAC. One subject that came up pretty quickly was lack of flying. When I asked what plan b was when the aircraft broke, there was a short pause then an embarrassed statement there was no plan B.....

The people there are trying, but it's like trying to move the sahara ten miles south using a teaspoon.

[EnigmAviation]

Correct - 10 out of 10.

[Cows getting bigger]

Meanwhile, rumour has it indicates that Wittering should have enough controllers to be open at weekends....... by Feb 2016. :rolleyes:

[thing]

Meanwhile, rumour has it indicates that Wittering should have enough controllers to be open at weekends....... by Feb 2016.

Are Wittering offering a LARS service now they have the new radar kit installed? Haven't spoken to them since it was MATZ only. I'm usually going down the bit between East Mids and Wittering so tend to stay with East Mids.

[ACW VGL]

Why the absolute link between ATC cover and the Wittering AEF flying? Many airfields, including military ones, operate civilian and military reg aircraft under a 'radio' callsign. What make the AEF at Wittering special or unusually risky?

[DaveUnwin]

That story about the CO2 detectors really is beyond parody! I don't suppose if anyone knows if that pair of Vikings that were awaiting collection have actually been er collected?

[Wander00]

When is the next "air commodore" board?............hat......coat...................

[romeo bravo]

ACW VGL - I might be missing something here, but you need ATC cover to operate. The problem, so I've heard, is no ATC cover over the weekend; something that would be needed to operate an AEF.

[ACW VGL]

Exactly the point I was trying to tease out, RB. Unless there is something specific to RAF Wittering or the AEF, its not a requirement. Civi aircraft, such as the Tutors, and military aircraft routinely and safely operate from military and civil airfields without ATC. Any airfield with the callsign 'Radio' or 'Information' is operating without ATC. What is actually preventing flying?

[Cows getting bigger]

H&S nonsense. In fact no, not H&S nonsense as anyone who had a proper grasp of risk management wouldn't make such directives.

[Hawk98]

ACW VGL, Tutors don't operate without ATC as far as I'm aware, I've been flying at Boscombe Down 6 times and I've had to wait for the ATC staff to come off lunchbreak several times

Tom

[cats_five]

One of the busiest gliding sites in Europe (Lasham) manages perfectly well without ATC even when running a comp, which can involve launching 60 gliders by aerotow within an hour, which means at least 60 launches and 60 tugs landing, plus any glider that comes back for a relight and it's additional launch & tug landing. They might have the winch or winches running as well (they have two Skylaunches)...

[1.3VStall]

cats five,

But you couldn't possible have Tutors coming back VMC into the circuit safely without ATC could you - could you????:ugh:

[chevvron]

ACW VGL, Tutors don't operate without ATC as far as I'm aware, I've been flying at Boscombe Down 6 times and I've had to wait for the ATC staff to come off lunchbreak several times

Tom
Although Air Cadet gliders, powered or unpowered, do not require ATC , AEFs and UASs' have in my experience, always been required to operate with it.
At Shawbury for camp one year, we had to wait for over an hour until the SDO (who was a controller) got to the tower before the first aircraft even taxiied.
Although having said that, if there is a detachment to a civil airfield which normally operates AFIS or A/G, I dare say the authorising officer would allow this, but I can't think of any airfields where this might happen, perhaps ACW VGL would care to enlighten us all?

[thing]

One of the busiest gliding sites in Europe (Lasham) manages perfectly well without ATC

The civvy airfield that I'm a member of is air to ground. It has full runway lighting, PAPIs, VOR approach, snow clearance, is a biz jet hub for the north, operates two fixed wing and one rotary flying school and has hangars full of privately owned aircraft. I can count on one hand the number of times I've rejoined and there has been no circuit activity. If they can operate like that, why can't Syerston?

[Mach Jump]

...VOR approach...

:=


MJ:ok:

[thing]

Er...unofficial VOR approach your honour...got the unofficial plate for it...only to be used in theory...

[cats_five]

cats five,

But you couldn't possible have Tutors coming back VMC into the circuit safely without ATC could you - could you????:ugh:

I hope you are being ironic here!

[chevvron]

The civvy airfield that I'm a member of is air to ground. It has full runway lighting, PAPIs, VOR approach, snow clearance, is a biz jet hub for the north, operates two fixed wing and one rotary flying school and has hangars full of privately owned aircraft. I can count on one hand the number of times I've rejoined and there has been no circuit activity. If they can operate like that, why can't Syerston?
As far as I'm aware, Syerston is A/G.

[Opsbeatch]

Any particular reason the Tutors at Wittering don't decamp to an airfield that has ATC coverage at weekends, say Duxford or Cambridge?

It's only a patch but it will get the kids backsides in the air at least. Again, if they wanted to find a solution they would. Looks like the reason why I left the ATC is still there, forests of red tape!

OB

[Wokkafans]

Hopefully my eldest will get airborne at Boscombe this morning - this will be his second flight in 18 months of being in the ATC :( His school, Churcher's College, has a very active CCF section but retention in the ATC wing is a real problem at the moment due to the lack of flying.

As an aside, are station visits organised by the ATC Squadrons directly or are invitations sent out by the stations and it's first come first served on who gets to go? With Odiham and Brize not too far away I would have hoped the school could have organised something. I have a faint memory though that someone stated these visits are all dependent on the ATC Squadron taking the initiative? If it's the latter perhaps it's time to have a chat with the school?

[622]

Ref the above, it's very (or it was in my day) much down to the individual ATC / CCF Squadron to contact the Station and ask...do they still have ACLO's ?


I can only speak from an ATC perspective, but I believe the CCF was similar.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Any particular reason the Tutors at Wittering don't decamp to an airfield that has ATC coverage at weekends, say Duxford or Cambridge?

It's only a patch but it will get the kids backsides in the air at least. Again, if they wanted to find a solution they would. Looks like the reason why I left the ATC is still there, forests of red tape!


As usual the devil is in the detail. When do the aircraft deploy from Wittering to elsewhere? Can't do it on Saturday morning - no ATC at Wittering. Friday afternoon impacts on Friday's flying. Friday evening requires the staff to get MT back after the delivery flight and then set off at crack of dawn on Monday for the pick-up - not ideal for people on a rest tour, especially those who commute at weekends already.

And let's not get into the thorny issues of engineering support, landing fees, etc etc.

[incubus]

Why the absolute link between ATC cover and the Wittering AEF flying? Many airfields, including military ones, operate civilian and military reg aircraft under a 'radio' callsign. What make the AEF at Wittering special or unusually risky?

Wasn't it one of the recommendations that came out of the enquiries about the Tutor fatalities that they operate under a radar service?

[Wokkafans]

622 - thanks for the feedback - I'll get on their case :ok:

[JOE-FBS]

"an airfield that has ATC coverage at weekends, say Duxford or Cambridge?"

Cambridge has ATC (i.e. Air Traffic Control with Tower, Approach and Radar call-signs). Duxford, like most small airfields does not. Duxford is an Information call-sign so the AFISO controls ground movements. As soon as the aeroplane is on the runway, it's uncontrolled and up to the pilot. Mind you, even the people that run airfields don't always know the difference, calling Church Fenton by telephone this week to see whether they operate after dark, one of the telephone options is for Air Traffic Control when the airfield has at best an air-ground radio station i.e. not control at all.

[ACW VGL]

Incubus, sorry I don't know how to apply a quote. The Tutor mid-airs were upper air and the recommendation would mitigate the risk of 'See and avoid'. I have been Duty Instructor at an A/G RAF Airfield VGS when the occasional Tutor came in. The made all the right calls, helping everyone's situational awareness and, after a couple of touch and goes, flew safely away - all without ATC. I think you touch on the issue behind cadet non-flying, mentioned early in this thread, the worry of the next cadet to be lost enacting Haddon-Cave's threat of safety responsibility being removed from the military.

[Opsbeatch]

"As usual the devil is in the detail. When do the aircraft deploy from Wittering to elsewhere? Can't do it on Saturday morning - no ATC at Wittering. Friday afternoon impacts on Friday's flying. Friday evening requires the staff to get MT back after the delivery flight and then set off at crack of dawn on Monday for the pick-up - not ideal for people on a rest tour, especially those who commute at weekends already.

And let's not get into the thorny issues of engineering support, landing fees, etc etc."

Totally understand this but let's face it, it's not too hard to overcome this little speed bump if people had the want to.

As for support and fees, I'm pretty sure that the Marshall family would be willing to assist :)

OB

[chevvron]

"an airfield that has ATC coverage at weekends, say Duxford or Cambridge?"

Cambridge has ATC (i.e. Air Traffic Control with Tower, Approach and Radar call-signs). Duxford, like most small airfields does not. Duxford is an Information call-sign so the AFISO controls ground movements. As soon as the aeroplane is on the runway, it's uncontrolled and up to the pilot. Mind you, even the people that run airfields don't always know the difference, calling Church Fenton by telephone this week to see whether they operate after dark, one of the telephone options is for Air Traffic Control when the airfield has at best an air-ground radio station i.e. not control at all.
Also Cambridge already has Tutors for UAS and AEF purposes so they probably wouldn't want any more.
What else flies at Wittering? Why can't they adopt the 'normal' UAS/AEF operating periods of open wed - sun closed mon & tue?

[romeo bravo]

Chevvron

The UAS/AEF moved out of Cambridge ages ago, moving to RAF Wyton, and then subssequently moved to RAF Wittering.

As for shifting opening days, Wittering's Tutor fleet operate Mon-Fri as 16 (R) Sqn, so ATC already operate 5 days. I'm sure there would be complaints all round if they couldn't fly Mon and Tues.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Still doesn't explain the "conflict of interest" with airfield use at the weekends by Four Counties GC and it's associated closure.

[sedburgh]

Any change to the ATC operating hours would presumably mean renegotiating the contract with Babcock, who operate the tower.

Air Traffic Control at RAF Wittering begins new phase (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/air-traffic-control-at-raf-wittering-begins-new-phase-22012015)

[Wander00]

"Headline" - Babcock expect profits will be up this year

[chevvron]

Chevvron

The UAS/AEF moved out of Cambridge ages ago, moving to RAF Wyton, and then subssequently moved to RAF Wittering.

As for shifting opening days, Wittering's Tutor fleet operate Mon-Fri as 16 (R) Sqn, so ATC already operate 5 days. I'm sure there would be complaints all round if they couldn't fly Mon and Tues.
Sorry didn't know that; my last visit was back in '87 when our cadets were trucked from (would you believe) Wittering to Cambridge for AEF during summer camp and prior to that, I did my PPL course there in '71.
What do 16(R) Sqdn operate? Didn't realise there was still a flying unit at Wittering.
So the crux is, ATC has been part civilianised at Wittering - this wasn't mentioned before. Had it been all service, no doubt they would open 7 days like Boscombe Down.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Sorry didn't know that; my last visit was back in '87 when our cadets were trucked from (would you believe) Wittering to Cambridge for AEF during summer camp and prior to that, I did my PPL course there in '71.
What do 16(R) Sqdn operate? Didn't realise there was still a flying unit at Wittering.


In case you hadn't heard:

Mrs Thatcher is no longer Prime Minister and Ronald Reagan is no longer POTUS. In fact, there have been two President Bushes and several others as well.
The Cold War ended (for a while), but there have been more problems in the Middle East, including two wars against Iraq and also another adventure in Afghanistan, following a terrorist attack in the US
Pope John Paul II, Mother Teresa, Princess Diana and Freddie Mercury are no longer with us
Rick Astley, Five Star and Bananarama are no longer Top of the Pops
The RAF no longer operates Phantoms, Buccaneers, Victors, VC10s, TriStars, Shackletons, Jet Provosts, Wessexes, Bulldogs, Harriers, Jaguars, Nimrods, among others. RAF aircraft are no longer permanently based in Germany, Belize, Gibraltar, or Hong Kong.
Computers got smaller and better, and cars got bigger and cleaner (apart from German ones).

Disappointingly, Wittering and Teversham have also changed somewhat in the last 28 years :ugh:

[Sky Sports]

If you think the 18 month grounding over dodgy repairs and paperwork issues is excessive, imagine how long it will be when somebody up the chain realises that the gliders don't have a bloody engine! :ugh:

[romeo bravo]

Not all gliders within the ACO are engine-less, we do use (well used to) the Vigilant :ok:

Chevvron - 16 (R) Sqn use Tutors

[chevvron]

Not all gliders within the ACO are engine-less, we do use (well used to) the Vigilant :ok:

Chevvron - 16 (R) Sqn use Tutors

So presumably they do both UAS and AEF. Which means that apart from the contract with Babcocks for 'local' control, there is nothing to stop them switching to wed - sun operations.

[Opsbeatch]

Torque - 'Teversham' hasn't changed since the 50's...trust me!

OB

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

'Teversham' hasn't changed since the 50's...trust me!


In general terms you are, of course, quite right, but the motley collection of 3/4-engined transports rusting away has changed somewhat over the years, and the number of elementary trainers (which after all is what we are interested in on this thread) has dwindled from plenty to nothing within the last 20 years.

[DaveUnwin]

So, did the two completed Vikings ever finish (or even start) their epic voyage to Syerston, or are they still 'awaiting transport'?

[squawking 7700]

Dave,
Air test them at Cambridge and then aerotow to Syerston.


7700

[Art E. Fischler-Reisen]

I've noticed aircraft activity in the direct vicinity of Syerston over the last week or so, either in or over the ATZ. Can't say what it was, because I wasn't close enough to see, but it had a mode A transponder.

[Sky Sports]

Apparantly, the Commandant Air Cadets has posted a gliding update on her facebook page. Anyone know how to share it on here?

[longer ron]

The only comment I could find on her FB page was in with loads of personal stuff and said that there will be an update at some stage in the future LOL

[Wander00]

I remember her as a stude on IOT when I was a flt cdr. Didn't she do well

[Yellow Sun]

I remember her as a stude on IOT when I was a flt cdr. Didn't she do well

So, it's your fault:E

YS

[Wander00]

YS - not on my Flight! I was second time single and not allowed female cadets - a policy at the time apparently

[DaveUnwin]

"Air test them at Cambridge and then aerotow to Syerston."
Always happy to help out 7700 - am current on either end of the rope and on the insurance for four different tugs. Am I correct in assuming that the two completed Vikings haven't moved yet then?

[Wander00]

Lets start a petition


D... U..... for OC 2FTS, as Hon Gp Capt like herself..........hat, coat

[DaveUnwin]

Ha ha ha - its a generous offer Wander but I couldn't handle the bulldust (or the inertia!) I quite like getting things done, then getting on with the next thing that needs doing. Ten years of producing a monthly magazine will do that to you!

[Wander00]

T'was in jest, and for just those reasons - something needs a stick of dynamite inserting - I am dismayed for the last 18 months but more so for the future, not least because I know what I got out of the Air Cadets. Tried to put a bit back too, as a VR(T) officer for a while, an ACLO (twice) and as an OC Admin Wg

[DaveUnwin]

I know Wander - and I'm as upset about the recent past and as worried about the immediate future as you. The ATC was great for me too, and I think my two young sons would probably join - but only if they can fly.

[squawking 7700]

Dave,
It was 'almost' a tongue in cheek suggestion but in all seriousness, if the will and need to have them back at Syerston was there they could've been aerotowed - I know you have the means at your disposal, there is/was a Robin at Syerston used by CGS for aerotowing.

And think of the PR - 'RAF undertakes longest glider tow since June 44'.

If it had been a civvy club and they needed a glider back (because two seaters earn money for clubs) it would've been aerotowed if necessary and of course last week presented a great weather window to do it.


7700

[ACW VGL]

I think you (we) are all missing the point, DU. Not flying cadets is a good thing in the modern safety environment. 'As Low As Possible' sets an even higher standard than 'As Low As Reasonably Practicable', since No fly = No risk. As for a civi flying a military aircraft, heaven forbid! It was bad enough letting RAF-pilot-wanabee Walter Mitties fly them. Cdt AC and OC 2 FTS have achieved a 100% safety record.

[DaveUnwin]

Exactly 7700 - if they wanted them back they could have aerotowed them (in fact, last week any decent soaring pilot would've had a fair chance at soaring them back, I flew on several days between Saltby and Wittering and it was really good at times, with plenty of lift about). I think ACW VGL has hit the nail on the thumb - someone has decided that ATC sailplanes will have a 100% safety record, and we all know that can only be achieved by not flying ATC sailplanes.

[Opsbeatch]

I remember doing a number of retrieves from our VGS to CGS and back to ensure we had a decent servicable fleet, sometimes 2 in a day. I daren't count the amount of time I spent on the A1 with a trailer wagging happily behind me.

Reason I put this is there was always the will to do something, to help the old CGMF keep the fleet flying during peak season. This will appears to have all but gone, however, I would love to be proved wrong.

OB

[ACW VGL]

Unfortunately, the pendulum of risk v task has not found its point of equilibrium yet, particularly following the loss of cadets in the two Tutor mid-airs. In an operationally busy and cash strapped service I can understand the low priority of the ACW fleet. I am frustrated for the youngsters who are missing out but know that the staff of at least one VGS are eager to rebuild, refresh and move on, once the opportunity presents itself.

[Frelon]

There appears to be no will to do anything associated with risk in the ACO at present.

I fear that we may have gone from when we were making things happen (1970 - 2000), through watching things happen (2000 - 2010) to wondering what's happened (2010 - 2015) in the ACO.

There is another thread (http://forum.aircadetcentral.net/t/gliding-paused/1152) on "Gliding Paused" running on Air Cadet Central and it seems that any attempt by the squadrons to get Air Cadets off the ground has been thwarted at every turn.

The silence from HQAC and No 2 FTS has been deafening!!

[Wander00]

Any chance of getting a sympathetic MP to ask a PQ?

[Jimmyjerez]

Apparently boss dudes going to cranwell next weekend and then big briefings all round place after that. Big announcement about closing a load of the schools for good apparently. Really sad, dunno what's going to be left, probably a few schools and Syston.

[Lima Juliet]

That is also the rumour I'm hearing. I'm also hearing that some new aircraft might be bought. Just like SDSR, though, lots of rumours as all the options are staffed...good ones and bad ones!

We'll have to see what the next 4 weeks brings.

LJ

[Cows getting bigger]

Personally, if the axe has to fall I would like to see the AEFs go. As a young CGB I spent endless weekends chasing winch launched gliders around a soggy, cold RAF Catterick. Cadets had plenty of opportunity to fly whilst also engaging in proper, aviation related, team building activity. Right now, the organisation is more aligned to the Army Cadets/Scouts than aviation. Indeed, it is depressing to get a message from WHQ asking if you have any aviation minded cadets who may want to attend an undersubscribed aviation training day; there's only so many times you can enthusiastically marshall a landrover.

Perhaps the BGA is the solution? They quite happily and safely service Air League scholarships and I'm sure they would be willing to embrace the ACO as a customer/partner.

[cats_five]

It's easy to say the BGA might be the solution, but I suspect there is a lot of devil in the details of that one in many areas. Our local ATC approached my club and was wanting only full cat instructors to fly cadets...

[Sky Sports]

The cadets have virtually no opportunity to fly and are leaving in droves. My son has had one 20 min slot in a Tudor in his 2 years with the cadets.

I just can't understand why the organisation isn't making up for it, and therefore re-engaging the cadets, by offering more sqn visits and jollies.

[Frelon]

Oh come on chaps, this is the Royal Air Force! They cannot close some of the gliding schools as they keep telling us that the Vikings and Vigilants will be back soon, they have 26 new Skylaunch winches just waiting to be started up. All of those Squadron Leaders must have squadrons to run, or what else would they do at weekends?

I can imagine Skylaunch just taking back those unused winches and giving the MOD their money back, not! What would Skylaunch do with 26 diesel engined winches when all the clubs want is gas powered kit?

No, this is just a rumour chaps, do not worry, all is well, Air Cadet gliding will start soon, I promise you!

I can remember when rumours started about military camps closing around the UK. These rumours were scotched and the camps involved started to spruce themselves up and everything was painted. Then they closed them down!!

Years ago I went on a business course and one of the pieces of course work was a project to look at the demise of the British motorcycle industry (http://www.theridersdigest.co.uk/book-review-happen-british-motorcycle-industry/). It all started with the import of cheap 50cc Honda motor cycles with electric start and weather protection. The British motorcycle industry just ignored this and watched it happen!! Remember, big companies like BSA, Ariel, Norton, Royal Enfield, Norton, Vincent, Velocette and Triumph. At the end of the day they put it down to bad management!!

I can imagine the business schools thinking about "Air Cadet Gliding and what became of it!" in years to come as a future project.

No, closing Air Cadet gliding schools is only a nasty rumour!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

There appears to be no will to do anything associated with risk in the ACO at present.


Cadet deaths when flying have led to greater reluctance to overlook the risks associated with flying. Cadet deaths during AT have led to greater reluctance to overlook the risks associated with AT. Hardly surprising, however unfortunate the impact on the amount of flying/AT being done!


The cadets have virtually no opportunity to fly and are leaving in droves.

Do you have any figures to back this up?


I just can't understand why the organisation isn't making up for it, and therefore re-engaging the cadets, by offering more sqn visits and jollies.


Do you mean ATC sqns going on visits, or ATC visits to RAF sqns? And what kind of jollies?

[Sky Sports]

Quote:
The cadets have virtually no opportunity to fly and are leaving in droves.
Do you have any figures to back this up?


Yes. My sons squardon has gone from 30 to 14 in two years.
Do you mean ATC sqns going on visits, or ATC visits to RAF sqns? And what kind of jollies?
ATC visits to RAF sqns, and, a jolly, as in a ride in anything that the RAF has going.

Latest from the Commandant Air Cadets FB page;
I had a catch up call with the AOC and he is focussed on mtgs associated with the glider recovery programme, which is at a critical stage. As soon as we know what option has been agreed, we will ensure that information is cascaded to everyone who needs to know but, due to commercial and contractual sensitivities, I regret I cannot tell you what option are under consideration. Rest assured, the boss and his senior colleagues are doing all they can.

[romeo bravo]

The cadets have virtually no opportunity to fly and are leaving in droves. My son has had one 20 min slot in a Tudor in his 2 years with the cadets.

Okay, gliding may not be happening across the ACO, AEF is happening in all locations, except those Wings/Sqns affiliated to 5 AEF. But what about getting in ouch with multi-engine units of RAF or, dare I say, talk to AAC; we've had cadets up in helicopters several times this year.

And as for cadets not getting the opportunities of activities, that is usually down to OC Sqns, not to the ACO as a whole. I have seen it many times where OCs don't spread opportunities around for various reasons.

[Wander00]

Comments by Commandant AC suggest that far from rectification being near completion, decisions have yet to be made on "where, when and by whom!"

[A and C]

I think you will find that most of the where, who & when decisions have been made and as it is a single source contract the greater financial oversight has to be gone over before the project can go ahead at full steam.

The ball will soon be firmly in the court of the type certificate holders and RAF supply system to provide appropriate support as the contractors and their sub contractors are tooled up with all the technical issues under control and just awaiting the green light to proceed as quickly as they can.

[Jimmyjerez]

One of my mates on FB said that apparently Viggies all going to be binned as need new engines and wings all cracked or something? Sounds like my old winch mates willbe ok but no motorglidders?

[360BakTrak]

ALL Vigilant's need new engines and have wing cracks?! Hmmm........unlikely I'd say!

[Arclite01]

Can't believe that about the Vigilants for a minute.

I could believe it as a strategy for getting a new replacement provided. Such as the Ximango for instance :}

Arc

[Fluffy Bunny]

New engines! I'd heard that rumour, but from memory, Grob initially offered a different power plant and 3 bladed C/S prop. (Tutor prop replacement anyone?)
What do they think they'll fit now???? A diesel engine like the winches? :eek:

[hoodie]

What do they think they'll fit now????

There was a Grob 109B modified with a Rotax engine at AeroFriedrichshafen earlier this year. It was the object of some interest by RAF visitors.

[DaveUnwin]

I saw a G109 fitted with a 912 when I flew the G120TP and G520T out of Grob's base at Tussenhausen-Mattsies a few months back.

[Arclite01]

Does that mean that Grob would restart production for the Airframe and supply new airframe and engine combinations ?

I'm sure there would be a civilian market for this as well as a MoD Production run..............

Interesting thought. I wonder what the performance is like. There is the added complexity of reduction gearboxes and liquid cooling to consider. Nothing major really for RAF type use & servicing.................

Grob could take back the old Vigilants in exchange and re-engine them to defray the costs.

Hmmm

Arc

[Dusty_B]

My understanding is that the new engine project was slated to be procured from the 2015/16 budget. They decided to keep the back-to-flying programme and the re-engine programmes separate (you know, because it is far more efficient to have a whole fleet run through major maintenance twice, and re-train all the crews twice). As a result, the engine programme budget has been lost, and will have to be re-allocated as and when. Probably a good thing. Besides, they aircraft obviously haven't flown the hours they were projected to over the last 18 months, so in theory the moment they're flying in earnest again, the stopwatch will be restarted.

IFAIA, the engine is expected to be a Rotax 912 variant - hopefully the certified 100hp version and a modern efficient propeller. (Would be lovely to have a 914 and get a decent climb rate, but that's probably too much engine management left in the hands of nervous 16 year olds unless they come up with a single leaver option).

You'd think a bit of fuel, oil and water would be 'nothing major really', but the way the RAF/MAA thinks, daily servicing appears to be a minefield for unqualified persons - ie mere pilots.

[DaveUnwin]

I know what you mean Dusty, and in the real world it's mostly only fuel. We use a EuroFox as the primary tug at one of the clubs I fly from, fitted with a 912iS - and some days it works pretty hard.
AFAIK although we check regularly the coolant has NEVER needed topping up. It does take a teacup of oil every couple of weeks.

[Cat Funt]

Well, as already discussed, the VGS OCs have been summoned to Syerston the weekend after next. They're to be briefed by AOC 22Gp personally. 1hr meeting, nothing else scheduled, for chaps that are travelling from all corners of the country. (6hr drive from Preddannack, 8hrs from Kinloss.)

Comdt 2 FTS then to host a series of 5 "town hall meetings" for all VGS staff.

I don't know anyone who has a warm and fuzzy feeling, but if I'm honest, after 18 months of getting the mushroom treatment from Pippa and his superiors, getting binned may actually come as a relief to a bunch of guys and girls who are tired of being f:mad:ed around and who are ready to get on with their lives.

[Lima Juliet]

CF

Yes, that's what I heard as well. Saturday 7 Nov 15 is the briefing day for 'the rest'. I feel for the OC's if they have to keep schtum from the rest of their team for a week or so.

I hope that sense prevails and that the VGS goes on and returns to its roots. The motorglider use for me always seemed a bit between the two efforts (AEF and conventional gliding). I am hearing on the jungle drums that some 'core sites' will be favoured over others, but I hope that the majority of the sites are preserved - local sites are good, and I think the sole use of Dundee for Flying Scholarships demonstrates the error of that particular course of action over having flying opportunities for Cadets in th local area.

LJ

[Cows getting bigger]

Agreed. If the opportunity is still there, back to basics.

[DaveUnwin]

I couldn't agree more LJ. The MGs are OK, but pure gliding is better value.
I’ve always felt that air sports can be very valuable in promoting the social, intellectual and physical development of teenagers, and with gliding in particular we have an activity which offers both physical and mental exercise, instils pride in solo achievement, and yet is only made possible with teamwork. Soaring flight requires the practical application of lessons learned in maths, physics and geography, while even relatively mundane airfield tasks such as keeping the log can teach young people another very important life skill - learning to take responsibility.
To become a good pilot requires discipline and self-discipline, while a good day’s gliding combines all the elements of a great day out - fun, excitement, exercise and adventure in the fresh air. Just what you want for a teenager. How, or why, have the ATC lost sight of this?

[Cat Funt]

LJ,

I grew up with the Viking and switched onto the Viligant. As a training tool, the Viking is far more useful as the cadets are kept busy all day helping to launch and recover aircraft.

From a purely selfish point of view, as a borderline old git, there's a lot to be said for not spending your winter weekends ankle-deep in mud and being able to turn on the cabin heat. :E

The problem with winch-launching is that the hierarchy is very wary of conjoint ops with powered aircraft, so finding suitable sites is a big problem.

[DaveUnwin]

I wonder why "the hierarchy is very wary of conjoint ops with powered aircraft"?
Many civi gliding clubs cheerfully run winch, aerotow and MG operations side-by-side all day long, and also accept visiting powered aeroplanes, helicopters and microlights (with PPR and a decent brief).
After all, its not rocket surgery is it?

[A and C]

I wholeheartedly agree with those who think that gliders should not have engines, but on some sites the motor glider is the only option to get cadets into the sky.

I the motor glider fleet is going to have change the engine as the one they have is now unsupported, the Rotax 912 re-engine is the only game in town and the best place to go but remember that this will need to be just part of the upgrade, 8.33 comms and FLARM will also need to be part of the package.

As for talk of cracks in the wings........ I think this is just rubbish spouted by the poorly informed.

[POBJOY]

So why would OIC Air Cadets be saying all VGS getting P T Trainers in the summer issue of Air Cadet !

It seems that an organisation that has had two brand new fleets of relatively simple machines that have been kept under secure cover, have not been able to
maintain a system that was adequate to satisfy their own requirements.

Get the chisels out chaps and build some new Mk 111's and a winch that just required a staff cadet and some fuel. The ATC can then get back to what they were good at; getting Cadets airborne, giving them 3 solo's, and remembering the motto VENTURE ADVENTURE. It would be acceptable to 'upgrade' from wellies. PP

[incubus]

So why would OIC Air Cadets be saying all VGS getting P T Trainers in the summer issue of Air Cadet !
That system can be justified purely on the basis of their being this thing called weather that is persistent in getting in the way of glider ops and wasting everybody's time (from those driving 2 hours for GICs to those doing a scholarship and beyond) on multiple, regular occasions, even with the fleet as it was 3 years ago.

[Cat Funt]

Dave, VGS flying is very different in nature to club flying. The entire focus is on teaching bloggsy to fly a circuit. You don't usually get aircraft launching and going somewhere else for an hour or more. A hundred sorties or more per day is not uncommon if you're relying on winch launches, even using around 4-5 gliders- in effect, 200 movements a day.

You also have to factor in things like lateral spacing, runway and taxiway edges and all manner of things that can get snagged by cables (for example radars and indeed aircraft- actual events)

[Cows getting bigger]

But that never stopped us in the past. There are plenty of bits of MOD real estate that could easily handle a winch or two.

[DaveUnwin]

Sorry Cat but I have to agree with Cows, and a hundred launches isn't actually that many. Its more about a mindset - if you want to make something work you can, but if you're worried that a Bad Thing might happen, then you won't.

[Arclite01]

@Dave Unwin - sadly CATFUNT is correct.

My experience of ACO Gliding (since 1979 as Cadet and Instructor):

1. Conjoint Glider operations are not welcomed (that is Civilian and ACO) on the same field. The ACO Operates low experience student pilots training to a relatively low level of proficiency (albeit safe) and does not want the additional risk of either powered or glider operations that interfere with either the flying task or affects safety. This may not be 'written down' policy but is my experience.

2. Mixed Operations of civilian power and ACO winch launch aircraft are not welcomed either. Frankly the two are rarely compatible and create problems for each other with Power aircraft doing circuits and not confined to the standard operations and ACO winch launch aeroplanes dropping thousands of yards of cable across the airfield or launching to 1500'+ and creating a hazard for the power traffic.

3. Cable creates a FOD hazard to jet aircraft and that is why you don't get winch launch operations on fast jet airfields nowadays. This is why VGS such as Linton, Chivenor, Odiham and Lossie are motorglider operations. VGS such as Hullavington and Upavon are winch launch because there is very little/no jet operation there (inc helos)

4. Cross wind and wind strengths in general are a feature of ACO operations. When the wind goes out of limits as defined in the Flying Order Book we have to change the run we are using to reduce the risks and issues faced by the student landing in a crosswind and also to prevent cables drifting onto our 'neighbours'. Some days when the wind changes 3 or 4 times and goes out of limits we change the run 3 or 4 times a day. This is time consuming for a Winch Operation and can annoy our conjoint partners intensely.

5. Conjoint Operations often have to stop if a student is going 'first solo' to reduce the risk and issues he/she may face. This also can annoy our neighbours who often don't 'get it'.

6. Syerston operates conjoint Vigi and Viking Ops and these are largely experienced instructors but the rules and separation criteria are the same. Circuits are in opposition and reflect the differing abilities and operational profile of the two types to reduce the risk around the separate operations.

Finally,

7. COWS you clearly don't understand the rationale behind ACO gliding. There are many fields we could fit a Winch onto but that doesn't make them suited to an ACO type of operation. Assessment of sites is undertaken by the experienced staff at ACCGS and CFS - they are always keen in my experience to try and operate where possible. The agreement is also with any based units and the Defence Land Agent (DLA) - often Operation taskings mean non-availability of potentially suitable sites. In addition many operations have been tried on non-MoD sites in the past and tend to fail due to the issues highlighted above. If we were just pinging off a few winch launches with experienced pilots going cross country or local soaring then OK, but not for the ACO whose primary tasking is training and AEG.

I accept from Dave Unwin that 100+ launches a day (200 movements) does not sound a lot but there are not many civilian gliding clubs that could do that many training launches...........................

anyway back on topic lets hope this whole fiasco is sorted as soon as possible for the ACO so Cadets can get flying again.

Arc

[DaveUnwin]

Good points well made Arc, which I totally accept. To be honest, I was never advocating running a winch launch operation at Coningsby or Marham, but was just saying that many places do operate powered and winch launch ops side-by-side, along with motorgliders, microlights etc.
And yes, its about time the Air Cadets actuallly er got into the air!

[Cows getting bigger]

Arc, I've only been gliding since 1982 so you have a couple of years on me. :)

'Conjoint' can work. Booker is an example, although I accept that they do not winch launch but this is due to a relatively short field length. Furthermore, they don't sterilise everything whenever there is a first solo taking place; perhaps this is the ACO being somewhat over-zealous and agricultural in the application of Safety Management? :bored:

[Arclite01]

@Dave Unwin

My VGS did operate at Marham for a while and hence my comments :-)

We moved out in the end for the very reasons listed

Arc

[chevvron]

Halton operates on the basis of the VGS having priority use of the marked runways and all other traffic (powered, RAFGSA, etc) use a parallel strip with 'mirror' circuit directions, generally VGS to the north and others to the south. The RAFGSA use both winch and aerotow launching.

[Arclite01]

Hey COWS

I think it's a reflection of the experience level of the student and also the risk management aspects of the operation. By controlling the parameters, we control the risk (to a greater degree)

Thanks

Arc

@Chevvron I was aware of Halton operations and you are correct. It shows a conjoint Operation CAN work but my earlier comments are valid for my experiences :-)

[Auster Fan]

@Dave Unwin

My VGS did operate at Marham for a while and hence my comments :-)

We moved out in the end for the very reasons listed

Arc
And from memory (?) was unable to run continuous courses as Vikings and Tornados don't mix very well. Such a shame that Swanton Morley was lost to the ACO....

[chevvron]

And from memory (?) was unable to run continuous courses as Vikings and Tornados don't mix very well. Such a shame that Swanton Morley was lost to the ACO....
Swanton Morley - yet another perfectly good airfield ruined (like Spitalgate and Catterick) by the Army.

[Frelon]

Swanton Morley - brilliant, as was Hawkinge before it (now sadly covered in houses).

[1.3VStall]

chevrron,

Add Cottesmore, Little Rissington, Thorney Island, Dishforth and many, many more airfields that have been squaddified - all to the detriment of the capability to maintain flying activities.:ugh:

[DaveUnwin]

I'm amazed that anyone thought for a moment that running a winch launch operation alongside fast jets would work. The incredibly incompetent working of the collective military mind at times never fails to baffle me. Things which - to my eyes at least - seem remarkably easy, logical and straightforward often seem to be (for whatever reason) far too difficult, whereas something that is quite clearly a very silly idea they cheerfully try. Of course, in fairness I should add that I've flown and worked with some brilliant military pilots.

[EnigmAviation]

Looks like the end of ops as we have known it, not good.

[Arclite01]

Go on Enig

Spill the beans.............

Arc

[WE992]

Dave Unwin actually for almost 30 years at Bruggen, Gutersloh & Laarbruch winch launching took place on the same airfield that fast jets operated from without problem.

[DaveUnwin]

Well WE992, I never knew that and am happy to be corrected. I must admit that it certainly doesn't sound like a good idea (and I've flown gliders off the winch at a lot of different airfields, so am very familiar with winch launching) but quite clearly Bruggen, Gutersloh & Laarbruch made it work.
Any ideas why Marham couldn't? If I may make a guess - different eras?

So Enig, what's the scoop?

[Flugplatz]

Dave U.

I was a member of Bruggen Gliding Club and the main reason it worked was that the club flew on weekends and the Tornados didn't! (mostly)

As has been mentioned, FOD could be an issue but the main thing to worry about in my view, was all the structures and airfield/nav. equipment on the field or near the runway. These made it imperative to land in the right place but it was a big airfield. I seem to recall that flying over the Married Quarters provided quite a reliable source of local thermals. The gliders were even kept in one of the HAS. The club seems to have been well supported by the Station and of course it helps that all users had the same boss.

Flug.

[ACW VGL]

Dave U - Good point: 'Of course, in fairness I should add that I've flown and worked with some brilliant military pilots'. That's part of the problem, beyond things like politics, budgets, etc.

Aircrew reach Gp Capt on their ability as operators - in the cockpit - then hit a completely new sphere of command, with politics, budgets, etc to contend with. Some make the transition superbly, an ex-OC Lossie stands out, but many do struggle. But lets not forget that once rewritten, the saga of the flying pause may see Cdt AC knighted and OC 2 FTS awarded the air force cross. Included in the citations will be 'decisive leadership', 'force-wide cost savings' and 'exemplary safety implementations'.

[POBJOY]

Never underestimate the ability of the 'system' to rewrite history.

Even while the Battle of Britain was being fought the 'brass' were plotting and scheming to remove the only two persons who kept their cool.
It took over 20 years to right the wrong,and longer to get the facts out there.

Despite the fact that the Cadet organisation has failed in its remit to provide a flying training service to keen youngsters the official websites and brochures continue to flourish with the usual media hype and now the 'celeb' endorsements.

The situation has highlighted deficiencies in both leadership and competency from above, yet the volunteers at the 'coal face' who have for decades kept a safe system going with dedication and service have been treated with scant respect. It is always the easy option to do nothing and sadly this is becoming the norm in all manner of things nowadays, but HISTORY WILL RECORD that the ATC volunteer element of the gliding organisation has an unrivaled SAFE record of providing the required VENTURE ADVENTURE since its inception and has only been let down by poor leadership from the top.

[A and C]

I would far rather we see some people fired for imposing rules that stop those in command from seeking the best technical advice, being able to make decisions based on technical fact and being able to fire those who hide their incompetence behind a stream of technical questions and requirements that the manuals outline in the smallest detail tasks that should fall under the heading of basic tradecraft.

I would be very pleased to see a knighthood awarded to the military officer who can sort out the mess that this has become but he will have to start by giving out a lot of P45's

[DaveUnwin]

"But lets not forget that once rewritten, the saga of the flying pause may see Cdt AC knighted and OC 2 FTS awarded the air force cross. Included in the citations will be 'decisive leadership', 'force-wide cost savings' and 'exemplary safety implementations'."

Actually ACW that wouldn't surprise me in the slightest - after all there's truly been a massive underspend of the Flying Budget, while the flight safety record is a very impressive 100%. Taken in isolation, those two facts would look good on anyone's CV..........

[Arclite01]

Good sensible answer FLUG.

Arc

[DaveUnwin]

I think my old K6E (433) might've been based at Bruggen FLUG.

[pr00ne]

ACW VGL


Oh come on!

"Aircrew reach Gp Capt on their ability as operators - in the cockpit -"

Funniest thing I've seen on Pprune for a LONG time!

[ACW VGL]

Fair point, pr00ne!

Mine was simply that they don't get there by having a proven track record of successfully running an FTS, understanding SLA/KPI, managing contractors, implementing stuff and so on. The service spent a large sum on management consultancy on investigating why there was a problem at that rank and providing training to get over it. Its obviously worked. :D

[Frelon]

The Peter principle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle) is a concept in management theory formulated by Laurence J. Peter in which the selection of a candidate for a position is based on the candidate's performance in their current role, rather than on abilities relevant to the intended role. Thus, employees only stop being promoted once they can no longer perform effectively, and "managers rise to the level of their incompetence."

In an organizational structure, assessing an employee's potential for a promotion is often based on their performance in the current job. This eventually results in their being promoted to their highest level of competence and potentially then to a role in which they are not competent, referred to as their "level of incompetence". The employee has no chance of further promotion, thus reaching their career's ceiling in an organization.

So it may be that many large hierarchical type organisations are run by incompetents!

Hat, coat, run.....

[A and C]

That is without mentioning the fact that once they have reached their level of incompetence they will block the promotion of anyone bright enough to show up their incompetence.

[Flugplatz]

We don't know what they are going to say at the briefings, but assuming the worst doesn't happen, what alternative may be offered up? (other than a resumption of the existing system with all the aircraft deemed airworthy).

My own thoughts are running along the lines of either the Vigilant or Viking fleet being cut entirely. This binning of entire types seems to be the way the RAF have handled recent down-sizing and seems popular since it draws a line under the whole issue (with no chance of a come-back).

Assuming that either the Viking or Vigilant fleet gets removed from service, and there is no increase in the fleet that remains, it seems to me that something will have to give. The only thing I can come up with is that it would mean that full gliding courses and training to solo standard would be largely discontinued. The VGS's would become glorified 'air experience' flights only able to throughput large numbers of cadets if they only cover part of the existing syllabus. Possibly those who show aptitude and enthusiasm would then continue on to the full syllabus and solo on an 'advanced course' (currently available for post-solo consolidation).

The advanced course could be carried out at Syerston with an enlarged establishment or at specific nominated Squadrons.

Obviously the major drawback would be the gradual withering away of the A and B cats and their greater experience, plus the disincentive that not going solo would have on cadet retention.

I am not in favour of this, but am just surmising what alternatives may be being cooked up by those facing the long-term options. Any thoughts on what the fleet options are? I assume Vigilants would be for the chop not least because of their greater 'complexity' and all those new winches sitting already paid for.

Flug

[Cat Funt]

Given the way this spinning bow-tie extravaganza came into being, the high-handed manner in which the brain trust has disregarded everyone throughout the process, and their repeated mantra of "trust us" whenever anyone further down the food chain has asked for information, I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess at what kind of arse-about-face solution is about to be be handed down.

Given that nobody I know has even heard of the CoC approaching the people at the coal face to ask for our input, I believe that a great many of us are hanging around more out of a morbid curiosity to see what happens next than anything else. Personally, I'm ready to walk away no matter what the decision is as I have zero confidence in the CoC's interest in, or ability to, serve cadets.

[A and C]

It is not the military leadership that sparked this crisis, it was the failure of those maintaining the fleet to meet the basic standards of technical compliance and record keeping.

From the military perspective the technical oversight could have been better but with the simplicity of the task you can see why is got missed when you consider the front line aircraft that require management.

Now the whole training system is under review with the Grob Tutor fleet as well as the gliders up for grabs so the game has become much more complicated.

The treasury bean counters have there eyes on the gliding sites in order to make a quick buck with no view to the damage that will be done to the youth of the nation.

The rules on fairness for government contracts may well result in the very people who failed to maintain the gliders getting the Grob Tutor contract inspite of their track record.

Add to this a safety culture that is just as extreme as anything the Taliban or Isis run in the field of religion and you can see the mess that the whole thing is.

What should have been a relatively simple and inexpensive technical task( if given to an experienced glider repair company ) has become stuck in the mire of vested interests, political correctness and job protection of people who are stringing the whole thing out in the hope that they can cover up their repeated errors.

[Lima Juliet]

Here you go, now in the public domain. This is the reason why they initially stopped or 'paused' - https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/234987/response/585814/attach/html/4/20140417%20Duty%20Holder%20Advice%20Notice%2086%20O.pdf.html

Unapproved modifications, non-documented repairs, no independent inspections being carried out, poor document keeping and 765 snagging/rectification and no effective quality management. As I further understand it, they found unrecorded accident damage and then undocumented repairs when the sub-contracted maintenace facilities started looking at the aircraft.

I can't imagine that the engineers are solely to blame for this as those non-documented accident damages can't have taken place without some aircrew instructor input!

The most damming line in this FOI document for me is the line "the management of the glider fleets had degraded to a point where airworthiness could not be confirmed". This is an utter disgrace in my view.

If you want to fly children then this just will not do...:=

LJ

[POBJOY]

Do we know if the Syerston fleet as opposed to the w-e VGS aircraft were in the same 'state' or do they have a different servicing operation.
Either way not a good day for the MOD/RAF to have got themselves into this situation with such simple aircraft. Boom Trenchard would not be amused.
On a brighter note there does not seem to have been much in the way of 'incidents' emanating from this situation so something must have been working ok even if the recording needs tweaking.
I suspect the real culprit will have been 'bean counting' trying to get more for less and having no idea of how it affects the actual way the job has to be done to meet the 'targets'.

[UV]

what alternatives may be being cooked up by those facing the long-term options.

Savings from binning gliding to be used to increase the number of Air Cadet Pilot Scheme allocations at Dundee, or elsewhere??

Hat.....

[360BakTrak]

Do we know if the Syerston fleet as opposed to the w-e VGS aircraft were in the same 'state' or do they have a different servicing operation

IIRC all Vigilants were rotated around the VGS's over time. Not sure if the same was true for the Viking fleet.

[Cows getting bigger]

So, who is going to end-up in court? It seems that the CAME has not been enforced and the CAMO did not identify a number of issues for some time. As for the MO introducing mods on primary systems (elevator hinge) without due process, I'm lost for words. :eek:

[Jimmyjerez]

One my mates said last night that all the glidders and Viggies have been left at the schools when they closed and haven't even been looked at or taken apart? Can't be right as I thought they were all at syston finishing off getting fixed surely?

[Lima Juliet]

That is correct, I've seen Viggies languishing in hangars at Kinloss, Halton, Odiham and Cosford during my travels over the past few months.

[iRaven]

So let's get this straight. After 19 months all we have is 4 Vigilants, no Vikings and the renaming of OC 2FTS to "Commandant". RAF Syerston - Homepage (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafsyerston/)

Not very good is it? I suspect that the mooted meetings in the next fortnight will only contain bad news.

From the website link "Our vision is "Promoting Excellence in Gliding Instruction" - really? What on earth makes you think that! :ugh:

iRaven

[POBJOY]

Ah well i got that bit correct big time.
38,000 movements !!
Even mentions Guy Gibson (who certainly would not have been amused at this current situation)
They will not be able to 'rewrite history' around this ongoing nonsense,but i suspect a very large carpet is even now being ordered.

[The B Word]

I bet they now regret kicking out the RAFGSA's Four Counties Glding Club in 2004: Four Counties Gliding Club (http://www.fourcountiesgc.co.uk/index.php)

I heard from a guy who was on a JSAT(G) course that they were looking at options to move the gliding centre from Halton to Syerston. Let's hope that is not the case for a variety of reasons (no accomodation, no ridge soaring, congested circuit (38,000 movements) and a team that has mismanaged their own air cadet gliding capability looking to mismanage a great set up from Bicester/Halton).

As a starter, why don't they approach the RAFGSA and restart the Four Counties Gliding Club at Syerston after they were kicked out of Wittering only to find that the UAS/AEF can't fly at the weekends anyway (another F-up in my opinion!)?

Why, of why, are we surrounded by apparent incompetent decisions in the Flying Trg world? MFTS, UAS, AEF and VGS have all been overshadowed by apparent incompetence in recent years.

The B Word

[pitotheat]

I would expect the RAFP to be involved in an investigation to see if this sorry situation is the result of gross negligence or criminal action. There has to be some follow up to this mess where individuals are accountable for what they did or did not do.

[Subsunk]

"But lets not forget that once rewritten, the saga of the flying pause may see Cdt AC knighted and OC 2 FTS awarded the air force cross. Included in the citations will be 'decisive leadership', 'force-wide cost savings' and 'exemplary safety implementations'."

If this was the Second World War, I'd recommend OC 2FTS for the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaf Cluster for services to the Luftwaffe.

[Sky Sports]

It is not the military leadership that sparked this crisis, it was the failure of those maintaining the fleet to meet the basic standards of technical compliance and record keeping.



True....... but, it was a failure of the military leadership to rectify the crisis once it had surfaced. 18 months down the line and we are, errr, absolutely no further forward. Wish I had a job that paid me to do nothing for 18 months!

By the way, can we remove the question mark from the thread title now.

[Frelon]

Wish I had a job that paid me to do nothing for 18 months!

......and get an excellent pension as well.

[A and C]

The RAF did try to get the contractor to do something but all that happened was meeting after meeting but no progress towards serviceable airframes, eventually the military got sick of the lack of progress and is now working with another contractor who have a number of airframes more or less ready to go from a technical point of view but things are taking a while to get signed off by the type certificate holder who have a rather slow paperwork system.

[Sky Sports]

The RAF did try to get the contractor to do something but all that happened was meeting after meeting but no progress

So, presumably a lesson has been learnt and the RAF will never use this contractor again in the future.
And, if the contractor is at fault, there will be a legal case and the RAF will be able to afford a new glider fleet with the compensation pay-out?

No?.......thought not!

[Sky Sports]

From the RAF Syerston website

2 FTS Mission Statement
2 Flying Training School delivers highly-trained Qualified Gliding Instructors, who provide the ACO with character-building flying opportunities that allow Cadets to develop soft life skills and a practical interest in aviation. This activity is bounded within a framework of a Just Culture, safe flying operations, airworthy platforms and fun!

Lets just have a closer look at that "framework"

Just Culture? - Not really. Can't see there being any interviews without coffee for the failings that have occurred.
Safe flying operations? - very safe, I would say, (by not flying)
Airworthy platforms? - No
Fun? - No

So there we have it. An activity that meets 1 out of 4 categories within a framework!

[UAV689]

Haven't sky launch been delivering new winches lately? Surely they wouldn't bin the gliding unless these winches were ordered 2yrs ago?

[DaveUnwin]

"who have a number of airframes more or less ready to go from a technical point of view"

Eh? From a 'technical point of view' its either 'ready to go' or it isn't.

[DaveUnwin]

That's an interesting document LJ. But while things were far from satisfactory, do we know how many Vikings and Vigilantes crashed because of sub-standard maintenance, because I think it's probably somewhere around zero. One thing we can all agree on - it really is FUBAR, or is SNAFU normal in the 21st Century RAF?
BTW Does anyone know why so many names were redacted?

[Lima Juliet]

Dave

You may have heard of the phrase "past performance is not an indicator of future performance"? Just because the Viggis/Vikings hadn't crashed in recent memory then it didn't mean they were safe - remember the Nimrod? Never had a mid air explosion before its fatal one in 2006 and it had been flying since 1969. Before 2 Sep 06 the Nimrod loss rate due to mid air fuel fires was also zero - it then had the fatal one in Sep 06 and also had another serious leak in mid air in Nov 07, shortly after AAR was suspended for good on the MR2 and the type was retired just over 2 years later.

Aircraft can lose their airworthiness real quick!

LJ

[DaveUnwin]

LJ - good point, well made! You are exactly right of course (serves me right for posting in a hurry). As the Romans used to say "Post in festinatione, pœnitentiam in otio".
I apologise.
Any ideas why so many names were redacted?

SkySports - Harsh, but Fair.

The B Word, you're not wrong - that Four Counties debacle was a real Clusterfeck!

[POBJOY]

Sorry; the Nimrod issue (serious as it was) has no reflection on the issues leading to the ATC foul up. The ATC had two NEW fleets of simple aircraft that did not; or would never be required to A:- Go to War,or B:- be modded for a purposed not originally required. This is failure of a basic TECH nature; it is not rocket science or so difficult that a degree course is required.The RAF already had the expertise for operating 'simple machines' within the RAFGSA, so there is no excuse for not understanding what sort of 'system' would work.in fact they only had to follow the example of the old MGSP to give them a clue.
No the bean counters won the day, but by golly lost the war and the whole campaign.
Easiest option is to sell both fleets (they would be snapped up as opposed to snap off) and re-equip under a normal servicing program.
As they already have the winches its a no brainer, and the SLG element has plenty of options.
And why we are on the subject keep the engines simple (no gearbox) and the weight down.A BASIC trainer is all that is required not a high performance one.
Actually a Pobjoy gearbox is very good,but a 'new' A65 would do fine and so simple.

[1.3VStall]

soft life skills and a practical interest in aviation

Is that what I learned when, as a 16-year old, I did three solo, controlled arrivals in a Kirby Cadet MkIII at RAF Spitalgate nearly 50 years ago?

If so, it must have worked as I am still gliding, flying, instructing, and tugging.

I just feel so sorry for the young lads and lasses who are now being denied that fantastic "launch" into a lifetime of aviation.

[Lima Juliet]

Dave

No need to apologise - this is a discussion forum after all? I'm guessing that the names of those not commonly known as linked to posts have been redacted. OC 2FTS, Commandant Air Cadets and AOC 22(Trg) Gp are all well known.

That's my guess, anyway. Yes, the Four Counties could have moved to Syerston for at least this last summer and possibly for a while yet.

Pobjoy

Of course the Nimrod is different to a glider/motorglider but the basic princiiples of airworthiness are the same. Also, if the fleets are sold off they won't be worth much as they won't have any paperwork trail to back up their condition for transfer to the civil register. Unless you know different?

LJ

[POBJOY]

Sorry LJ but this issue has not even been sorted yet,and two seasons worth of Cadets have been binned ! (what price that)
A new slimmed down fleet is the best option without WASTING MORE MONEY proving they c.....d up.
Draw a line and get going again whilst there is an organisation left to benefit.
Every week that goes by is costing loads of money and producing nothing,so why bother.
When compared to the overall MOD spend this is trifling and it is even more galling to throw more away chasing tails.
Move on, get flying, get some credibility back into the organisation.
How much do you think they spend on all the publicity and websites,plus the salaries of the 'crats' that fouled up in the first place.The actual flying is good value compared to that.
By the way were are the Munster V G winches (must watch the disposal sites)

[Mandator]

Pobjoy: The one that 'fell off the back of a lorry' went through Witham SV at Colsterworth two or three months ago.

[BEagle]

WTF are 'soft life skills'? A total management wanqueword expression. Does it mean 'learning how to have a soft life', or what :confused:

As for this daft modern nonsense of 'visions' - and silly motivational buzzword cant such as 'agile, adaptable, capable'....:ugh:

I'm almost surprised that 'Freedom through work' and 'Strength through joy' haven't made unwelcome reappearances......:\

[Thorr]

I agree with the view that the real issue here is the staffing side, bringing several hundred volunteers back up to standard is going to take a lot of time. Also, a large number would have left and the natural throughput of new staff via the staff cadet system has also been depleted. Not forgetting the admin burden of medicals in an Air Force already paired down in this respect, CRB checks etc, etc. Turn over of staff was already a problem, the average staff cadet may stay for a few years, go off to University a may come back after, but staff do not tend to stay for as long as they used to. The other issue is all training up to G1 is in-house, which you can't do if you haven't got the instructor resources to hand. Then, you also need to build a new engineering system to support, is there an appetite to set up a new mgsp?

To my mind, the way forward may be to set up half a dozen regional gliding centres, which offer gliding scholarships 5 days a week. The organisation could be staffed by ftrs. Weekend air experience/GIC could continue but on a more limited scale. At least then the aircraft would be better utilised. If each centre had 8 aircraft, and utilised 6 keeping 2 spare, each centre could deliver 12 scholarships per week, and 600 per year. That is 3600 per year. I think the current model works on a target of approx 2700 per year.

[POBJOY]

What all of them !

[POBJOY]

1.3VSTALL

Well said VS my abiding memory of the first visit to a GS was being shown to a room that had a mountain of welly boots and another one of oversize denims.
Of course they had all been laundered and suitably 'cleansed' (i think not) and the sight of would be mini pilots with odd boots (complete with dried mud) and no visible hands was wonderful. In actual fact it was all part of the 'get on with it' system that made a generation self sufficient and expected to make an effort.
In fact there was a semblance of H&S as the stores had 'goggles' for winch drivers and gloves for cable repairs. The goggles (proper MK8 with two sets of lenses and anti mist cloth) never saw the light of day at the winch as the instructors wore them in case someone took a photograph,and for their motorbikes. (my staff cadets had cars).
In any way with 'Frelon' as i/c equipment it was easier to steal the crown jewels.than prise any equipment out of his santa's grotto.
What we did have was competent LEADERSHIP all the way down the chain of command and staff committed to a 'get them airborne' syndrome backed up with tech expertise at HQ Air Cadets and the centres. It annoys me that we had a system that worked VERY WELL and the crats broke it,and it is a disgrace.
Sorry Frelon it was not really a grotto (more like Fort Knox) how about a photo of you wearing a Soapyhat with goggles !

[CoffmanStarter]

Clearly this was too much fun all those years ago ...

https://youtu.be/ULl0FjcJX3o

[POBJOY]

Coffs

Minimal to the extent of launch instructions

WALK RUN !!

Gone by my time but saw Ladley do a demo at SM local airshow.
Same airshow saw Spit with flat tyres dragged out of hangar,tyres pumped up and a circuit flown with UC down (i suspect not a lot of paperwork in evidence).

[Martin the Martian]

Never mind. There is a consolation.

The gliders have been grounded long enough that they are likely to be included in the next edition of Wrecks and Relics.

:ugh:

[A and C]

Those of you who would advocate the sale and replacement of the glider fleet should understand that the Type certificate holder of the VGS fleet is not the manufacture but a contractor that is paid by the MoD to cover that role.

So with no easy MoD money the type certificate holder will drop the type certificate like a hot potato.

No type certificate = no civil CofA = no resale value.

The gliders are for the most in reasonable condition and if the recertification program can be run by an experienced glider maintance company with proportionate support from an experienced glider type certificate holder then the aircraft could provide years of service at modest cost.

[POBJOY]

A&C I know its some time ago but what paperwork went with the Falks and fretwork fighters when they were sold.
Anyway is it a fact that no paperwork is available for the fleet.
If so how is some sort of 'handover' going to happen that could not happen to anyone else especially a non PT club operator or GSA.
At the worst a 'deep' inspection will be required so more money will still be going out for what is now an aging fleet.
Better to cut and run and stop the drain and pain. If there had been a 'flow' of machines back to service then one could have some confidence that the situation was recovering,but with no obvious improvement in sight then money and resources are just being squandered on a non event.Sorry but in the real world this seems to be a case of mismanagement being rectified by more mismanagement.We are talking about SIMPLE TECHNOLOGY lacking a full trail, and they were not going to fall out of the sky because the planes did not know about the trail and were quite happy flying,because they were ACTUALLY AIRWORTHY.

[A and C]

While I can understand the temptation to cut and run but with the cost of new gliders IRO £120k the cost of returning a finically worthless glider to service and getting another twenty years service from them makes new gliders a nonstarter.

There are companies that could take over the role of type certificate holder and maintenance providers who are much better placed to do the return to service some of who are not the usual defence industry suspects but this would require the ministry to look further than they usually do.

The big question is does the military establishment have the vision to take the work to glider experts or will the committee go the with the conventional route of defence industry contractors who don't have any glider expertees ?
My guess is that with the failure of the original defence contractor to keep the fleet airworthy the military will go for the safe option of another defence contractor........... If the tax payer ( and cadets ) are lucky the defence contractor will have subcontracted an expert glider repair and maintenance company to physically do the work.

Soon the cat will be out of the bag as soon as the big meeting happens, so we won't have long to wait to know the answer.

[Sky Sports]

Taken from the air cadet central forum:


Because Armament Engineering Section (AES) at MoD St Athan is severely undermanned and the inability to recruit more staff due the uncertain future of MOD St Athan. With insufficient manpower to operate safely all Air Cadet shooting activities would have to be suspended until further notice. As of the week commencing 2 Nov 15, AES will endeavour to retrieve all arms and ammunition from all squadrons across both wings.
So unless cadets can get to St Athan during the working week as they are also a ban on weekend working in the armoury cadets cannot shoot. Also with the loss of weapons from units there will be no dry training so any shooting will have to have been preceded with the dry training. So no training no WHTs and no shooting.
I believe this is not a short term thing as they have been trying to recruit staff but nobody wants to work in south Wales.

[POBJOY]

Come on Frelon lets have that picture of you wearing the full monty of cold weather gear plus the winch drivers goggles !!!

At least they looked the part; as opposed to the ridiculous sight of the later brigade wearing plastic ones designed for use when grinding.

If this picture is not forthcoming i will have to spill the beans about a certain incident regarding the Austin 4x4 1 Ton having its radiator shot with a bow and arrow !!!

When you look back to how much flying and actual solo's went on with very basic facilities and no 'crats', it makes you weep to see how they have destroyed the very core of the organisation that gave youth the chance to unlock their potential and develop ongoing skills that they could take forward in life.

Picture please PP

[Thorr]

The really frustrating part of this sorry story, is there appears to have been no thought placed in what happens after the "pause", almost that the organisation reverts to the status quo and carries on as if nothing happened. When the magnitude of this problem was identified and clearly the pause was going to be longer than imagined, then surely the thing to do at that point was to decide on the future of the organisation - recognising that they were going to lose current staff and that future staffing would also be impacted. It seems they are only just waking up to some of these issues, but without any thought or idea on how to rationally proceed.


Fact is that over the last 20 years or so, the VGSs have changed radically, especially with the added administration burdens that have crept in over the years. It is not uncommon for staff to report for duty before 8am yet not commence flying ops until after 10. Likewise, all the cop stats etc makes for a very elongated day. I also suspect that staff turn-over is much higher these days - with VGSs staffed by a younger cadre of instructors who give a few years service and then go off to University etc. When I first flew with a VGS, there were many staff who had been there 20-30 years or more - but I don't think that is so much the case. As such, the staff training burden is far higher.


Fundamentally, the organisation needs to decide whether the VGSs are going to be either a voluntary organisation, run along the lines of civilian gliding schools / GSA or whether it needs to be more akin to a service flying Sqn - which will necessitate salaried staff and appropriate support systems in place; not just engineering, but logistics, medical, etc, etc - all in the face of cutbacks and rationalisation. What is likely, is that one of the outcomes from the pause will tend towards increased regulation and so the second option may be the only viable option.


One other thought is that in addition to staff having their weekends back, local residents (particularly near vigilant schools) have had two quiet summers. Is a return to flying going to prompt a wave of noise complaints. How may that impact on the resumption of operations.


I have heard tell of meetings with VGS OCs and staff - do we know when these are due to take place?

[The B Word]

OC's with AOC this weeknd at Syerston.

VGS Staff with 2FTS on 7 Nov 15.

[DriverAirframes]

OC's with AOC this weeknd at Syerston.

VGS Staff with 2FTS on 7 Nov 15.

Now postponed. New date TBC.

[Arclite01]

Thorr

I think you make a good point about noise. I've flown at several Viking VGS where we have had complaints about the noise they make (they have a distinctive 'whooom and whistle' noise sometimes) and know that for many years there have been complaints about Vigilant operations at Little Ris............

Sadly many of the 'complainants' often turn out to be retired service personnel !

Arc

[Wander00]

Am I alone in finding myself bereft of speech!

[VX275]

I remember that some of the noise complaints in the Venture days at Little Ris were made by a Dr Mitchell, RJ Mitchell's son.

[Thorr]

That will be another year lost then. To conduct any sort of study, write and present the report and reach a decision is going to take months. Then there is the implementation of that decision which is hardly going to be a short process. This suggests that there is no chance of any gliding before 2017 at the earliest.


What I don't understand is why they have cancelled the meetings with the VGSs. That brief statement hardly answers to multitude of questions. To leave volunteers hanging like this is frankly not on.

[Arclite01]

There are lots of powerful (rich and political) people in the areas around Little Ris.

I was told once by Gordon that direct approaches were made by locals to the MP for the constituency 'to get the noise stopped or moved'

Arc

[POBJOY]

From oc 2 fts
All meetings cancelled as no positive progress in immediate future.
Funding to be available for 'fleet recovery'.

Someone needs to tell the CAS what has 'actually' happened and why he needs to change the 'movers and shakers' to a team that have some idea how to operate aircraft rather than a 'spin doctor'.

They are now likely to spend even more money on finding a solution than just funding some new machines and getting going again.

I suggest some direct comms to CAS will provoke a reaction.

Nothing to lose as nothing happening anyway.

[Frelon]

They are probably reading through this thread and the one on Air Cadet Central to get some ideas as to which way to turn!

Oh dear, and there was me thinking that they would have been discussing the options available during the 2 year "pause"!

[DaveUnwin]

A&C, about ten days ago you said in reply to Wander that "I think you will find that most of the where, who & when decisions have been made" - and it now appears that precisely NONE of the "where, who & when decisions have been made".
Does anyone actually know WTF is going on? Anyone at all?
This truly is a shameful, sorry saga.

[Sky Sports]

On the 21st July, I said the following;




Can we start a sweepstake on how long the 'final paperwork issues' will take to sort out, and at what cost.

I'll start with 1 year and £1M!

Can I collect my prize now?

[brokenlink]

Think letters to MPs are in order methinks or at least going for a chat at one of their "surgeries" to appraise them of the situation.

[treadigraph]

This truly is a shameful, sorry saga.

It is indeed.

[Mandator]

A previous post mentions Vigilant long term recovery. Does that mean that the Viking is deceased, dead, not living?

[POBJOY]

I suspected it would be even worse than expected when looking at the latest issue of Air Cadet. It covers a whole host of activities and exciting 'events' but no mention of ATC Gliding at all.
I doubt if the CAS has had a full independent appraisal of the situation from anyone at the coal face or indeed anyone who knows how the system really works (or could work).
The guys at the Squadrons have been totally professional in not taking this situation outside of the Corps,and indeed have been subject to 'pressure' from above to keep the lid on.
Well we are past that now:a recovery can only occur if the patient is ALIVE, and the CAS has to be told in no uncertain terms that the patient is dying and needs life support NOW, not 'planning for recovery'. I am going to write direct to the CAS and copy the letter to Michael Fallon MP (Defence Minister and MP for Sevenoaks). There are lots of 'pruners' out there who can do this and help to get the Air element of the Corps in the air. If i lived in Sevenoaks i would go to one of the MP's surgeries and present the letter in person.
The volunteer Air component of the ATC/CCF has a proud history of delivering the goods and providing a fantastic chance for youth to develop themselves it must not be allowed to wither due to the inability of those who should be providing LEADERSHIP INSPIRATION and EXAMPLE.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Pobjoy,

You are right. I am only a CI at my local squadron (although ex-RAF pilot due to the ATC and gliding in my youth!!). I now reside in Oxfordshire (West) and, of course, have a very senior minister as my MP! I will be writing to him and attending his next "surgery" (an appropriate term!) in order to bring up this whole sorry subject. Result - who knows? Just maybe it might help as I see the Cadets losing interest! What a waste!!

[Lima Juliet]

Saw this on Comdt Air Cadet's Facebook page dated 10 Oct 15:

I had a catch up call with the AOC and he is focussed on mtgs associated with the glider recovery programme, which is at a critical stage. As soon as we know what option has been agreed, we will ensure that information is cascaded to everyone who needs to know but, due to commercial and contractual sensitivities, I regret I cannot tell you what option are under consideration. Rest assured, the boss and his senior colleagues are doing all they can. I know many of you are fed up of waiting for the recovery but there are massive constraints at play and all I can ask is that you continue to be patient and, in the interim, make the most of all the other opportunities that the ACO has to offer.

Thank you Ma'am. Why can't your 2FTS flow out a similar message? We understand the commercial sensitivity surrounding the decision process but strong messages such as yours help us, in and out of your organisation, to understand what is going on.

Truly sad to hear on here that there is no information flow seemingly now planned in the upcoming weekends on the future of Air Cadet gliding.

LJ

[longer ron]

My contacts sqn still bleeding cadets away - has gone down from 30+ cadets to 15 max - they might as well remove the 'Air' prefix and call them something else.The RAF/Leadership have let them down big time and there really is only a tenuous link between the modern ATC and the RAF.
As I said some time ago - the way ahead would have been (some) new gliders (other countries manage to plan these things) - the whole affair is very sad and smacks of hidden agendas - otherwise why all the secrecy ? Always best to come clean with problems !
The leadership from the top has been appalling ! (ie non existant !)

[longer ron]

Meanwhile in Australia...

The AAFC, a youth development program supported by Air Force, was in the process of receiving 22 new gliders – 11 ASK-21 Mi self-launching gliders and 11 DG 1001 Club soaring gliders.

Commander AAFC, Group Captain (AAFC) Greg Williamson said seven ASK-21 Mi self-launching gliders were currently spread across AAFC units in Stonefield South Australia, Bathurst NSW and Warwick Queensland.

Four more were due to be handed over to units in Point Cook in Victoria and Charters Towers Queensland by the middle of 2015.

They seemed to be able to aquire new gliders while in the uk we still fart about with old a/c - presumably spending a small (or large ?) fortune pi55ing in the wind against mounting paperwork :ugh:

[A and C]

At the moment I am leaning towards agreeing with you, l did have high hopes that this relatively simple task could be achieved with good speed and reasonable cost if put into the hands of experienced glider professionals.

Until I get the full picture I will not comment further.

[Jimmyjerez]

Real shame to hear the news. I was thinking of volunteering at Cosford now I work over that way but apparently guys say it's one of those getting closed down. Will the Viggies get sold off does anyone know? I do think the Vikkings are good for the kids to help out with holding wings and stuff on their day out though.

[Cat Funt]

So let's get this straight. After 19 months all we have is 4 Vigilants, no Vikings and the renaming of OC 2FTS to "Commandant".

Not true.

Everyone got a new badge to wear too.

[Mechta]

Anyone want a load of grief and to work for peanuts?

(http://www.totaljobs.com/JobSearch/Results.aspx?Keywords=glider)http://www.totaljobs.com/JobSearch/Results.aspx?Keywords=glider

Looking on the bright side, by the time all the paperwork has been done, Weslake's new diesel engine will have years of experience under its belt, so it could be fitted to the Vigilant and VGSs can say goodbye to 100LL.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weslake_aero-engine

[Sky Sports]

I don't get it. Nothing has been decided, no contracts have been signed, there will be 'no positive progress in the future', and yet Serco are trying to recruit glider engineers.
Do they know something we don't????

[POBJOY]

Check out all the operators who went to Diesel in the GA fleet and had a happy experience.
I still remember the adverts for the ARV2 with the ordinary two stroke.
Picture of ARV2 and a big tick with a c150 and a big cross.
Strange; still a lot of 150's around !!
The Weslake will be expensive/complicated and probably designed for the drone market.
Leaving aside the slmg v glider issue the fleets were adequate and did the job. They were let down by an organisation (RAF) that has stripped itself of trained staff to be replaced by contractors. The contractors seem to have kept the fleet going ok; its the RAF at fault not running a system to cope with the regulations.Someone needs to point them towards the LAA to help them find a level of operation for SIMPLE TYPES.

[EnigmAviation]

Very disconcerting news that the meetings have been postponed/cancelled. One can just picture the panic scenes behind closed doors - probably just like "Yes Minister" ! "What can we tell them ?" -" How are we going to get ourselves out of this mess that we've created ?" etc"

I doubt that we'll ever see the good days returning, - finances - risk averse strategy to extremes, poor management, sub-contracting and general ineptitude will cause depletion and demise ultimately.

[Freda Checks]

Serco are trying to recruit glider engineers.

I venture to suggest that people with the requisite skills are quite rare around Syerston.

[A and C]

Mechta has hit the nail on the head SERCO are trying to pay peanuts and as always when you do this you will get monkeys all the posts in the link show remuneration at about £10K short of what I would expect to pay someone with the experience outlined in the job spec.

Perhaps SERCO would like to reflect on the fact that not having the right people in post got them into this mess in the first place and that to get the right people you must pay the going rate otherwise the caliber staff they recruit are just going to repeat the mistakes of the past.

The placement of these job advertisements in my view is to try to show the MoD that SERCO are a serious contender for this contract, in fact it just illistrates how wide of the mark their thinking is when it comes to putting together a team with the correct skill level to accomplish the task.

[side salad]

'The volunteer Air component of the ATC/CCF has a proud history of delivering the goods and providing a fantastic chance for youth to develop themselves it must not be allowed to wither due to the inability of those who should be providing LEADERSHIP INSPIRATION and EXAMPLE"

I owe so much to these people who gave me the first experience of flight then so much more. The volunteers have been treated very badly indeed. Looking forward to a public apology to them and the generation of cadets who will miss out on gliding by the time this mess is sorted. If the ACO was a business the shareholders would have sacked the directors by now. Safety is paramount yes, but some arse let it get into this state.

[Cows getting bigger]

Side salad, you are correct and many (most?) of us had our first exposure to aviation within the cadet organisations. On the Flyer Forum there are some glorious pictures of bungee launched Grasshoppers, complete with no-helmet-black-necktie cadet pilots.

To me, the focus shouldn't be on a public lynching, it should be on fixing the problem such that CGB's offspring have the best opportunity to have the same aviation fun.

Venture Adventure.

[RAFEngO74to09]

By comparison, the Belgian Air Cadets runs a very good 3-year program for 150 glider pilots (intake of 50 per year selected from about 300 applicants).

Cadets are expected to go solo by the end of the first year.

http://www.belgianaircadets.be/public/uk/fleet.htm (http://www.belgianaircadets.be/public/uk/fleet.htm)

This seems to be a very creditable program for a small country like Belgium to pull off. Perhaps somebody from the UK ACO ought to look into how they do it at Weelde.

End of camp music video parody - looks like they were having a great time with a mix of serious stuff and fun. From the credits you can see that there were 6 gliders with one instructor between 5 cadets and 14 other support staff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVDJG_4NQ_k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msopu4IbmyU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIc-QmzTj6k

[longer ron]

And meanwhile - in New Zealand the Air Cadets (shock horror :eek:) do gliding courses in conjunction with civvy gliding clubs !

Gliding Training is organised by the unit in partnership with local Gliding Clubs. There are 2 concurrent annual week long Gliding Courses, which are held at Matamata and Waipukurau aerodromes. Cadets from all over New Zealand may attend these week long courses.

Funny old thing - civvy clubs are quite good at gliding !

[Auster Fan]

And meanwhile - in New Zealand the Air Cadets (shock horror :eek:) do gliding courses in conjunction with civvy gliding clubs !



Funny old thing - civvy clubs are quite good at gliding !
What may be slightly different though is the funding model. I was lucky to act as an escorting officer on an IACE trip to NZ and the cadets there are funded very differently and don't attract the same amount from central funds. Unless things have changed, the majority of their flying is sponsored by outside organisations eg Air New Zealand and I wonder therefore if that might make a difference to what they're allowed to do?

[longer ron]

I am sure that is the case Auster Fan - I only mentioned it because the RAF appears to have become a 'cannot do' service instead of the old 'can do' service and earlier in the thread there were comments about the safety of civvy clubs !

rgds LR

[Hueymeister]

This will sound a tad lazy, but 38 pages is a tad long to read; why are the Air Cadet Gliders still grounded? I can thank the VR(T) organisation for getting me airborne, air minded and a set of wings on my chest. What on earth has gone wrong with the VGS System?

[POBJOY]

They were really in the domain of the CCF and were flown/slid off some fairly short sites/playingfields,hence spent a lot of the time U/S due broken joints.
They were designed with the ability to have spoilers and control restrictions to prevent a steep climb/stall/prang situation.
When i saw where they were operated from i am not surprised most got a thumping.
However as is obvious when you see clips of them being operated (including assembly) it must have been fantastic fun even if you were not the pilot.
Methinks that two landrovers providing the 'manpower' would give the 'RUN' input the 'extra' zap needed.
A lot of Luftwaffe pilots got their first taste of flying in these type of machines!

[chevvron]

POBJOY, I think you might find (and I could be wrong) the Air Cadets didn't use Daglings, the other 'primary' (the Slingsby T38 Grasshopper being the better known) was the Eon Eton which looked very similar.