Air Cadets grounded?

[622]

....just to correct your correction...
Its no longer 'RAF' Upavon as the RAF left in 1993 and the Army then moved in and renamed it Trenchard lines ..... but still commmonly referred to as '622 - Upavon'
I guess 622 Trenchard lines would be correct, but then most people would immediately ask ...where? :E

[chevvron]

....just to correct your correction...
Its no longer 'RAF' Upavon as the RAF left in 1993 and the Army then moved in and renamed it Trenchard lines ..... but still commmonly referred to as '622 - Upavon'
I guess 622 Trenchard lines would be correct, but then most people would immediately ask ...where? :E
Correction noted but I'm surprised the airfield is operated on behalf of the Army now; often when they move onto an ex RAF airfield they find some way of destroying its capabilites; just look what they did to Catterick which of course used to have a VGS. South Cerney also used to have a VGS (625?) and once hosted the gliding world championships but having a tall fence all round the airfield probably wasn't too helpful.

[622]

Shhhh ...don't go giving them ideas! :E

[Opsbeatch]

614VGS is to be stood down, replaced by the guys from 611VGS that were already stood down.
I guess he got his wish in the end...

OB

[treadigraph]

Interesting to see 615VGS at Kenley are flying midweek, they have been busy both yesterday and today (definitely Vikings and not Surrey Hills GC's gliders...) Presume some kind of half term camp? I recall they used to fly Wednesday evenings in the summer...

[chevvron]

Interesting to see 615VGS at Kenley are flying midweek, they have been busy both yesterday and today (definitely Vikings and not Surrey Hills GC's gliders...) Presume some kind of half term camp? I recall they used to fly Wednesday evenings in the summer...
Maybe they've managed to get enough support for an early summer course; in some parts of Surrey and SE London it's half term holiday.
Years ago ('60s) at Halton and Bovingdon we would fly evenings tue/wed/thu during the light summer evenings.
I can remember launching from Halton in a Sedbergh (solo) as it was starting to get dark about 9.30 pm. I got about 1500ft off the launch then floated around in still air for about 10 minutes until the time came for me to return however as I descended and turned final, I found it had got so dark (out in the countryside and no surrounding street lights etc) I couldn't see the surface in order to judge my height properly so I shut the spoilers and simply 'felt' for the ground until the wheel touched down.
Then came the problem of the retrieve crew finding me somewhere in the middle of an unlit grass airfield at night!!

[WB627]

Interesting to see 615VGS at Kenley are flying midweek, they have been busy both yesterday and today (definitely Vikings and not Surrey Hills GC's gliders...) Presume some kind of half term camp? I recall they used to fly Wednesday evenings in the summer...

I did my gliding course at Kenly during an Easter school holiday.

[Auster Fan]

Interesting to see 615VGS at Kenley are flying midweek, they have been busy both yesterday and today (definitely Vikings and not Surrey Hills GC's gliders...) Presume some kind of half term camp? I recall they used to fly Wednesday evenings in the summer...
611 VGS used to run continuous courses at Easter, Whitsun and over the August Bank Holiday. I assume other VGS did the same...

[chevvron]

611 VGS used to run continuous courses at Easter, Whitsun and over the August Bank Holiday. I assume other VGS did the same...
Differed across the schools; I remember one or perhaps two courses at Easter and two, sometimes three, during school summer hols but never Whitsun (wot you youngsters call 'Spring Bank Holiday' nowadays) 'cos it was too adjacent to the summer exams period.
Also depended on how many staff you could muster; don't forget they were all volunteer part timers who had weekday jobs too.
(Best unpaid part time job you could ever have) :D

[621andy]

Easter and summer courses at 621...I can still almost remember the nights out:}

[pulse1]

I did a few Easter courses in the late 60s and it always amused me that the quality of cadets on those courses differed from the usual weekend types. Presumably this was because they were largely public school students and you could guarantee that one or two would be impossible, blaming the instructors for their shortcomings. The others were usually brilliant. On one course we had the charming son of the current CAS and the other cadets were trying to persuade him to get his dad to order Boscombe Down to stop messing us about with ridiculous height restrictions.

[POBJOY]

Interesting to see 615VGS at Kenley are flying midweek, they have been busy both yesterday and today (definitely Vikings and not Surrey Hills GC's gliders...) Presume some kind of half term camp? I recall they used to fly Wednesday evenings in the summer...

THe 615 facebook site states flying all week, so looks like a mini course which is great news for 615 and Kenley. An Easter and Summer course was always the norm with up to 20 Cadets per time and about 9 days of flying per course. Usually fairly local units so no issues completing the training if the weather intervened. Much more simple then with the fretwork fighters and fast trailer retrieves back to the launch point. NAFFI pies and late evening cable repairs using headlights so ready for early start the next day. If we were really late the winches and caravan were 'laagered up' on the peri track near the Wattendon arms and went back to the Belfast much later.

[8674planes]

More Tutor troubles.

From the RAF Tutor display team Facebook:

Tutor Display at Cosford Airshow cancelled. Unfortunately, despite the hard work the Tutor Display Team and Babcock have put into getting the Tutor Display ready for Cosford Airshow, as a result of a technical issue within the wider Tutor fleet, we will not be able to display tomorrow.

[chevvron]

More Tutor troubles.

From the RAF Tutor display team Facebook:
In my opinion they should never have selected the Tutor in the first place; it had to be 'modded' to make it suitable for the RAF tasks whereas the Firefly was available off the shelf.
I presume they are just used for UAS and AEF training nowadays with the Prefect II (the 'original' Prefect being an Air Cadet glider) replacing the Tutor for BFTS.

[chevvron]

THe 615 facebook site states flying all week, so looks like a mini course which is great news for 615 and Kenley. An Easter and Summer course was always the norm with up to 20 Cadets per time and about 9 days of flying per course. Usually fairly local units so no issues completing the training if the weather intervened. Much more simple then with the fretwork fighters and fast trailer retrieves back to the launch point. NAFFI pies and late evening cable repairs using headlights so ready for early start the next day. If we were really late the winches and caravan were 'laagered up' on the peri track near the Wattendon arms and went back to the Belfast much later.
Latterly Easter and Summer courses were drawn from all parts of the country, when I did an Admin Officers role at 637 (Little Rissington) in 1991, I was collecting cadets from the local railway station at Moreton in Marsh coming in on several different trains although any shortages were often offered to local gliding schools and earlier at 613 (Halton) in the mid/late '60s they came from all parts.
NAFFI pies?
The NAAFI wagon did attend at Halton but only to the hangars during morning and afternoon breaks; as we were out on the airfield they never came near us although on one occasion, we did a special presentation one evening at which the NAAFI wagon attended. I stood waiting in line with the others and as the SWO approached, the NAAFI girl said to him ''you can f***ing sod off, I'm not bl00dy serving you'.
Never did figure out what brought that on.

[POBJOY]

We had a NAAFI shop and a NAAFI 'Club' at Kenley but no wagon. The Austin would be despatched to collect these delicacies which looked like a toy Tortoise (similar taste). However to a lonely winch driver waiting for signals they filled the gap until the Airman's mess was open.
Just one of those 'magic' experiences for a young Cadet let loose on 'equipment' that provided the means for other Cadets to achieve their A&B at a former Battle of Britain airfield within sight of our Capital.
The Hurricanes were long gone, but the spirit is still there. Long live 615

[chevvron]

Navy Army and Air Force Institute.
I believe SPAR later took over the organisation.
As for the pies, I remember Freddie Frinton doing a sketch on TV (1960s or '70s so nobody else will remember) . In his usual 'drunk' persona, he bought a tortoise and returned later in the sketch to ask for another saying 'best pork pies I ever tasted.!!

[chevvron]

VIGILANTS
Photo on Flyer Forums showing a huge pile of Vigilants in pieces.
I'm guessing it was taken at Kemble judging by the '747s parked next to them.
I thought the intention was to re-furbish the Vigis and re-sell them so more MOD money wasted.

[campbeex]

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1600x1067/uogibnm_de952ca7235c62d237947b3b1a8852647f78719a.jpeg

[621andy]

Add to that the fact that 621 and 637 VGSs will very shortly cease to exist....621 was the longest serving school at one location until it was booted off the airfield at WSM in 1993, starting as 87GS in 1943. They went on to Hullavington and currently reside at Little Riss...

You'll never guess in a million years the reason they will disappear:mad: unless you're in the know...

Answers on a postcard:eek:

[dervish]

Not sure I see the problem. No difference between these and other front line aircraft.:E

[POBJOY]

Add to that the fact that 621 and 637 VGSs will very shortly cease to exist....621 was the longest serving school at one location until it was booted off the airfield at WSM in 1993, starting as 87GS in 1943. They went on to Hullavington and currently reside at Little Riss...

You'll never guess in a million years the reason they will disappear:mad: unless you're in the know...

Answers on a postcard:eek:

They will now be 'Working from Home' to save fuel and keep the accident level down, and be carbon neutral. Sorry news but then what do you expect when the main organisation has no leadership. It is ten years since the infamous Easter pause and sadly that was the indication of what was to come. Easter courses were the real start of the season and saw hundreds of Cadet A&B polished off in a week and another batch of enthusiastic youngsters set off on life's Venture Adventure. My Goodness what idiots we had that chucked it away (full time paid Idiots) they really could not cope with all that VOLUNTEER capability and lack of B...S..... What they could not do was erase the memory of a fine basic Training organisation that was World Class and British.

[Sky Sports]

https://forum.aircadetcentral.net/t/is-the-rafac-in-a-death-spiral/10489

It’s not looking good for the organisation is it.
Apparently, the commandant, (Tony Keeling) has declared that any activity is to be zero risk or its being binned. Classroom activities are the safe way forward!

[bobward]

Sky Sports,
I just could not believe, or comprehend, that statement allegedly made by the Commandant. ...and as for classroom activities not being dangerous........

Whilst I'm sad I'm no longer part of such a brilliant group of people, I'm glad I don't have to swallow stuff like this.

[POBJOY]

Sky Sports,
I just could not believe, or comprehend, that statement allegedly made by the Commandant. ...and as for classroom activities not being dangerous........

Whilst I'm sad I'm no longer part of such a brilliant group of people, I'm glad I don't have to swallow stuff like this.

Classrooms 'What Classrooms', My classroom was doing cable repairs (using Landrover headlights) at the end of a days FLYING, and ensuring everything was ok for the next day. The pay off came at the end of the week when 20 CCF Cadets paraded in front of our CO (they were some smart the CCF Cadets and even wore white spats !!) and presented him with a thank you token of appreciation for getting them all off solo despite the weather. The 'grunts' (Staff Cadets) were pleased to see them do ok, and that was our reward (plus a few NAFFI pies). It was all about great leadership and mega teamwork, plus a large dose of 'observed responsibility' that set us up for the future. Twenty plus years earlier there had been occasions when Cadets of the time had 'trolly- acked' Hurricanes and Spitfires off into action when needed, so is was some act to follow, although we did manage to find some Lloyd Loom chairs for down on the winches.

[Sky Sports]

One of the biggest problems the organisation has at the moment is the mass exodus of staff.

[chevvron]

Classrooms 'What Classrooms', My classroom was doing cable repairs (using Landrover headlights) at the end of a days FLYING, and ensuring everything was ok for the next day. The pay off came at the end of the week when 20 CCF Cadets paraded in front of our CO (they were some smart the CCF Cadets and even wore white spats !!) and presented him with a thank you token of appreciation for getting them all off solo despite the weather. The 'grunts' (Staff Cadets) were pleased to see them do ok, and that was our reward (plus a few NAFFI pies). It was all about great leadership and mega teamwork, plus a large dose of 'observed responsibility' that set us up for the future. Twenty plus years earlier there had been occasions when Cadets of the time had 'trolly- acked' Hurricanes and Spitfires off into action when needed, so is was some act to follow, although we did manage to find some Lloyd Loom chairs for down on the winches.
*NAAFI

[POBJOY]

*NAAFI

Well It was 61 years ago Chev, but I still remember to tap alongside the altimeter and not to stretch a glide, plus still have all my fingers left even after years of chopping cables (Imagine that today). I think the basic HAS design came from an inverted NAAFI pie (apple flavour),and used the same mixture. I see Kenley operated a 5 day course despite the weather this Easter well done to them.

[Sky Sports]

Add to that the fact that 621 and 637 VGSs will very shortly cease to exist....621 was the longest serving school at one location until it was booted off the airfield at WSM in 1993, starting as 87GS in 1943. They went on to Hullavington and currently reside at Little Riss...

You'll never guess in a million years the reason they will disappear:mad: unless you're in the know...

Answers on a postcard:eek:

Can you elaborate on this, because it’s my understanding that they have just had some accommodation built to accommodate cadets on overnight stays?

[downsizer]

It’s not looking good for the organisation is it.
Apparently, the commandant, (Tony Keeling) has declared that any activity is to be zero risk or its being binned. Classroom activities are the safe way forward!

Link to the statement? Or Policy? Or proof?

13 year old son is debating Air Cadets or Army and sadly I know which way I am leaning.

[bobward]

NAAFI;
Many years ago I was told it stood for 'No Ambition, and F*** all Interest...'

One other comment on the 'no risk' comment earlier. Getting the cadets to their units involves either a car, or bus. Now there's a real 'no risk' scenario.....

[Asturias56]

There doesn't seem to be any real desire by the RAF to keep the Air Cadets going :bored:

[Frelon]

Well they really shafted the Volunteer Gliding Instructors during the "Pause!" I remember a question being asked in the House about the cost of the "pause" and the response being along the lines of 'the majority of our gliding instructors are volunteers so no costs involved with standing them down!'

It is little wonder that fewer volunteers are stepping up when they have been treated like this in the past!

Along with Pobjoy and others, the best years of our lives (and probably the Air Cadets)!

[Sky Sports]

Having rammed the good ship Air Cadets into an iceberg, the commandant has, today, announced his resignation from the organisation and the RAF.

One of the biggest gripes from the volunteers is a complete lack of decent comms from HQ.

Special K as he is widely known in the organisation, announced his resignation not on sharepoint, or an all staff email, or an IBN, but instead…….on LinkedIn!

[bobward]

The AC organisation (?) has spent a lot of money in my art of the world, improving unit faciities of late. That includes a big renovation of wing HQ.
Asturias, you may well be right!

[Quietplease]

It was a wonderful organisation. 70 years ago last week I did my A and B at 105 GS Cambridge.
By 16 1/2 could fly, drive (Bedford 15cwt double declutching), drive a winch, mend a cable. Stood me in good stead until I quit flying 18 months ago as I was finding after a couple of hours in an LS4 the old body was getting a bit uncomfortable.
All those volunteer instuctors from all sorts of backgrounds who got so many of us started. CFI was a boring old fart bank manager but I still remember him in a T21 doing 8 loops on a hangar flight.

[chevvron]

Well they really shafted the Volunteer Gliding Instructors during the "Pause!" I remember a question being asked in the House about the cost of the "pause" and the response being along the lines of 'the majority of our gliding instructors are volunteers so no costs involved with standing them down!'

It is little wonder that fewer volunteers are stepping up when they have been treated like this in the past!

Along with Pobjoy and others, the best years of our lives (and probably the Air Cadets)!
I was a staff cadet 1964 - 1970 and gliding was my 'stimulus' to start an aviaton career; I joined National Air Traffic Control Service (NATS nowadays) after school and this led me to a 49 year career which I may not even have considered without my voluntary Air Cadet gliding experience.
The efficiency and camaraderie of volunteering in the gliding organisation (I was still of course a member of my squadron) meant that it was easy for me to integrate as an Air Traffic Controller plus part of the training gave me a PPL and later experience allowed me to fly in several diverse types (Wessex, Puma) which are normally not available to civil pilots.

[CISTRS]

OK - my PPRuNe name gives the preflight checklist at the time.
CISTRS...
Controls
Instruments
Spoilers
Trim
Release
Straps

Who remembers the checklist for the retrieve motor vehicles?
POWER...

[622]

Petrol, Oil, Water, Electrics (I think was originally electrolyte when you had to top the batteries up!) & Rubber!

I amended ours to 'Flower' checks when they went over to diesel:

Fuel, Litter, Oil, Water, Electrics & Rubber

...And then of course the 'Eagle' winch equipment check list:

FFAAGG..

[chevvron]

I can't speak for 637, but 621's history can be traced back to 1943 when it was formed at Weston Super Mud as no. 87 GS and stayed there until they were kicked off by DeSavary in 1993, the longest any School stayed in one place. They've moved around since then but have been at Rissy sharing facilities with 637 for some years now. But all that history will disappear due to some pen-pusher's whims:mad:
I can remember being asked to help out with starting a 'new' VGS at Gaydon in about 1966; I was at 613 (Halton) at that time and I declined because it would have been too far to travel and I was still at school studying for 'A levels. This VGS was of course 637 but whether it had a 'history' prior to 1966 I don't know.
612 VGS had a 'history' and the most recent details I am aware of were that it was formed from HQAC gliding flight at White Waltham (after HQAC moved to Brampton and the RAF relinquished control of White Waltham airfield) ln the '70s having been operated as a detached flight of 613 Halton then it was re-numbered and moved to RAF Benson in about 1980 and re-equipped with Ventures. It did exist prior to this but when this was I don't know; in any case it didn't exist continually as had 621. Subsequently when RAF Abingdon closed and all flying transferred to Benson, 612 was temporarily 'boltholed' to operate alongside 613 at Halton until new facilies were in place at Abingdon.

[chevvron]

Petrol, Oil, Water, Electrics (I think was originally electrolyte when you had to top the batteries up!) & Rubber!

I amended ours to 'Flower' checks when they went over to diesel:

Fuel, Litter, Oil, Water, Electrics & Rubber

...And then of course the 'Eagle' winch equipment check list:

FFAAGG..
OC 613 (Jacko) was very hot on ensuring the winch was left in the coirrect state; he would ask 'if you checked the oil level one morning and discovered it was excessive, what would you do?'
Well the 2 drum winch had gravity petrol feed to the engine and if you left the fuel cock on overnight, you risked having petrol seep into the engine thus increasing the oil level.

[chevvron]

Tried wiki; yes I know it's not always accurate.
It shows 612 as forming at Martlesham Heath (Suffolk) in 1955 and disbanding there in 1963, then re-formng at White Waltham in Dec 1978.
Unusually there is nothing listed for 637 prior to 1966.
Shown on wiki as 'List of Royal Air Force glider units' but there are some errors I have spotted.

[622]

Some years back (probably 20+ years by now!!) there was a booklet produced (A4 sized and fairly thick!) with all the VGS's and their histories ..... Not sure where my copy went ...but somebody may still have one somewhere!

[621andy]

Some years back (probably 20+ years by now!!) there was a booklet produced (A4 sized and fairly thick!) with all the VGS's and their histories ..... Not sure where my copy went ...but somebody may still have one somewhere!
I think I have one at home...I'll check when I'm back next week. Otherwise I'd have given chapter and verse on the histories. Unfortunately I'm 10,000km away!

[chevvron]

Some years back (probably 20+ years by now!!) there was a booklet produced (A4 sized and fairly thick!) with all the VGS's and their histories ..... Not sure where my copy went ...but somebody may still have one somewhere!
Never heard of that; I'd love to get to see a copy.
I was 'terminated' as a Wing Gliding Liaison Officer in 1998 so I kind of lost touch with things.(I was too successful - I got to go to Buckingham Palace for Royal Garden Party and my wingco didn't and he didn't like it)

[Ken Scott]

I can't speak for 637, but 621's history can be traced back to 1943 when it was formed at Weston Super Mud as no. 87 GS and stayed there until they were kicked off by DeSavary in 1993, the longest any School stayed in one place.

Perhaps if you’re talking about a gliding school specifically?

East Midlands UAS was formed at Newton in 1941 (as Nottingham UAS) and remained there until the base closed in 2000, before moving to Cranwell. I can’t think of any other unit that remained in situ for longer.

[622]

Never heard of that; I'd love to get to see a copy.


They were (as far as I know) distributed to all VGS's ....with enough copies for each member of Staff to have one - we certainly recieved a couple of boxes of them IIRC.
It's probably more like 30 years ago now I think about it.

I have no idea who produced them ...but probably distributed through ACCGS as it was then!

[POBJOY]

OC 613 (Jacko) was very hot on ensuring the winch was left in the coirrect state; he would ask 'if you checked the oil level one morning and discovered it was excessive, what would you do?'
Well the 2 drum winch had gravity petrol feed to the engine and if you left the fuel cock on overnight, you risked having petrol seep into the engine thus increasing the oil level.

Ah the dreaded petrol in sump because someone left the fuel on all night (worse if fuel tank full).
In the real aviation world this would be classed as 'oil dilution' for starts in very cold climates but of course we had no info on that so a sump drain was the required fix. Staff Cdt fix was to tow said winch to a 'remote' out of sight runway drain, drop the sump plug and problem solved. Then back to MT section and avail oneself of a suitable quantity of OMD 110 for the Bedford engine. As it was usually a Civ Inst that had fouled up (never a Staff Cdt) we just dealt with it and said nothing. However one day whilst engaged on a similar mission we were stopped by 'the powers to be' before we had dropped the plug, and sent off to do airfield duties. Some time later and errant winch was still not operational as 'the powers to be' had failed to find a suitable spanner to undo the rather large plug. Staff Cdts 'grilled' to find out how we were going to remove plug.!!!. OH, Cdt F/Sgt.............. does that with his VW Beetle hub nut ring spanner (which had 36 & 40 mm end's) !!!! You could neve get one over the Staff Cadets 'Ever'.
No one ever found out how we kept the 'stove' going in our HQ. Answer was a nocturnal visit in our SWB Rover to one of the mess's coke store's. After filling and securing said fuel Rover was hosed out and returned to hangar, those stoves would glow red hot. Twenty A&B's in a week, for Cadets by Cadets proud to have been part of it.

[GreenXCode]

After CISTRS, on 618 @ West Malling in the late 70s IIRC, the Sedburgh and Kirby Cadet were using:

C - Controls - Full & Free
B - Ballast - Not Fitted
S - Straps
I - Instruments (both of them, or was it 3)
T - Trim
C - Canopy - Not Fitted
B - Brakes - Not Fitted but we do have spoilers - Fully Open and in line, Fully Closed.

Halcyon Days

[Bill Macgillivray]

Good morning everyone, a quick question if I may. I note from an old BGA log-book that I got my BGA A/B "tickets" on 19 Dec 54 at Exeter ATC VGS - what I cannot find anywhere is the number of the school (now long gone I am sure!). What great days and what a learning experience for a young lad (at least I think I was!!)
Bill

[longer ron]

Good morning everyone, a quick question if I may. I note from an old BGA log-book that I got my BGA A/B "tickets" on 19 Dec 54 at Exeter ATC VGS - what I cannot find anywhere is the number of the school (now long gone I am sure!). What great days and what a learning experience for a young lad (at least I think I was!!)
Bill

Hi Bill
84 Gliding School - later 624 GS

Nice little picture on this page -

https://www.exetermemories.co.uk/em/_transport/airportphotos.php

[Bill Macgillivray]

longer ron,
Many thanks indeed for the info and the picture ref. Good days!
Bill

[campbeex]

Given the drift away from the thread title, perhaps a number of these latest posts could be formed into a new thread over on the 'Aviation History & Nostalgia' forum?

[Sky Sports]

Given the drift away from the thread title, perhaps a number of these latest posts could be formed into a new thread over on the 'Aviation History & Nostalgia' forum?
I was just about to say the same.
This thread is to highlight what's happening right now, and how the 'air' has definitely gone from the 'Air Cadets', as well as how it is ditching physical (allegedly risky) activities on a monthly basis.

[621andy]

C - Controls - Full & Free
B - Ballast - Not Fitted
S - Straps
I - Instruments (both of them, or was it 3)
T - Trim
C - Canopy - Not Fitted
B - Brakes - Not Fitted but we do have spoilers - Fully Open and in line, Fully Closed.
[/QUOTE]

By 1981 it was:

C - Controls - Full & Free and moving in the correct sense
B - Ballast - Not Fitted(Check!)
S - Straps -Tight and locked
I - Instruments - ASI reading normally, altimeter set to zero.
T - Trim - Not fitted
C - Canopy - Not Fitted
B - Brakes - Not Fitted but we do have spoilers - Fully Open and in line, Fully Closed?

[chevvron]

Ah but the above referred to pure gliders; was there a different checklist for Venture/Vigilant?
Flying with the Ridgerunners (microlight club) at Halton we used 'E' added at the end as a generic term for 'Engine' which encompassed power checks etc.

[ACW599]

On the Vigilant we used standard RAF-style FRCs.

[622]

On the Vigilant we used standard RAF-style FRCs.

Same on the Vikings...memorising checks was very much not the order of the day ...FRC's to be used every time!

[Haraka]

[QUOTE=GreenXCode;11628300]After CISTRS, on 618 @ West Malling in the late 70s IIRC, the Sedburgh and Kirby Cadet were using:

C - Controls - Full & Free
B - Ballast - Not Fitted
S - Straps
I - Instruments (both of them, or was it 3)
T - Trim
C - Canopy - Not Fitted
B - Brakes - Not Fitted but we do have spoilers - Fully Open and in line, Fully Closed.

( Cable Break, SIT on your arse for half an hour, then another Cable Break )

[CharlieMike]

I was just about to say the same.
This thread is to highlight what's happening right now, and how the 'air' has definitely gone from the 'Air Cadets', as well as how it is ditching physical (allegedly risky) activities on a monthly basis.

I think you'll struggle with this one...this is the Military Forum on pprune...you know there are very few on here that live in the present day. You can post any topic on here and within a couple of posts the whole thing in derailled with a "when I was in the RAF in the 1970s" post and thats it, endless "back in the day" chatter.

[Thud105]

Why on earth would you need RAF-style FRCs to fly something as simple as a G103 or G109??

[ACW599]

Better ask the Powers That Be who issued them and CFS who expected us to know them.

[Thud105]

Didn't it seem a bit excessive? I mean, we are talking about simple sailplanes and motor gliders, not a Starfighter.

[beardy]

we just dealt with it and said nothing.


​​​​​​​Says it all really eh POBJOY.

[622]

Why on earth would you need RAF-style FRCs to fly something as simple as a G103 or G109??

...I think mostly to keep Staff Cadets busy updating them on a rainy day!

[BEagle]

Given the drift away from the thread title, perhaps a number of these latest posts could be formed into a new thread over on the 'Aviation History & Nostalgia' forum? Absolutely NOT! It's important, given the current international situation, that people know how just how much has been lost over the past 2 or 3 decades.

For example, most of the aerodromes mentioned in this thread no longer exist as RAF aerodromes. It was easy enough to close them and sell them, without any thought about how to deal with any surge need for more aircrew....

[campbeex]

I think you'll struggle with this one...this is the Military Forum on pprune...you know there are very few on here that live in the present day. You can post any topic on here and within a couple of posts the whole thing in derailled with a "when I was in the RAF in the 1970s" post and thats it, endless "back in the day" chatter.

I suspect you may be correct. I wait with anticipation for the next Vulcan thread.

[campbeex]

Absolutely NOT! It's important, given the current international situation, that people know how just how much has been lost over the past 2 or 3 decades.

For example, most of the aerodromes mentioned in this thread no longer exist as RAF aerodromes. It was easy enough to close them and sell them, without any thought about how to deal with any surge need for more aircrew....
I'm not sure how relevant it is to the current international situation for folk to regale us with recitals of Mk3 and Eagle winch check lists. As I say, discussions which are more appropriate to the Aviation History and Nostalgia forum.

[Thud105]

"I'm not sure how relevant it is to the current international situation" You do know campbeex, that reading these threads isn't mandatory? Moaning about something you saw on the interweb is exactly the same as deliberately stepping in dog crap when you're walking down the street. Just walk round the dog crap, and don't read stuff you don't want to read.

[campbeex]

"I'm not sure how relevant it is to the current international situation" You do know campbeex, that reading these threads isn't mandatory? Moaning about something you saw on the interweb is exactly the same as deliberately stepping in dog crap when you're walking down the street. Just walk round the dog crap, and don't read stuff you don't want to read.
The problem, Thud, is working your way through the "dog crap" to get to something related to the subject of the thread in question.

[Thud105]

TBF Campbeex, your initial beef was ""I'm not sure how relevant it is to the current international situation". Somehow, I suspect that a thread with the title 'Air Cadets Grounded' is unlikely to have any relevance to the current international situation.

[campbeex]

TBF Campbeex, your initial beef was ""I'm not sure how relevant it is to the current international situation". Somehow, I suspect that a thread with the title 'Air Cadets Grounded' is unlikely to have any relevance to the current international situation.
No, my initial beef was with a thread meant to be about the current Air Cadet gliding situation being bogged down by misty-eyed tales from the past (see post 5303).

It was Beagle who, in response, brought up the link, however tenuous, to the "current international situation" (see post 5316). I was merely replying to that.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that to avoid further thread drift.

[BBK]

Thud

The Vigilant was comparable to a C152 and in the latter it would be expected for a student to use a checklist. Not to mention listing the limitations and emergency procedures. Hope that helps.

BBK

[Chugalug2]

Just an ex AC customer here, so I'll say my bit and then continue lurking. I was a CCF cadet and attended the local VGS and was later the lucky recipient of a Flying Scholarship. Both were a tremendous encouragement for applying to become an RAF pilot and both it would seem have all but disappeared (the FS then got you a shiny new PPL for nowt, other than the cost of the licence itself). As a recruiting aid the VGSs were well worth the modest cost they incurred to the taxpayer, given that the manpower involved was/is voluntary. The cunning plan worked and I duly became a GD/P.

Today an air minded youngster has little such encouragement and must remain swaddled in the HSE straightjacket inhibiting the learning of risk assessment that in my time began with 1.01; climbing a tree and then crawling out on its branch. What is going to happen if rapid expansion of our armed forces is called for? Little pre-service experience available and what there is for adventurous youngsters seemingly favours the ACF and CCF Army sections. Fewer and fewer RAF flying stations which are hence over crowded and too busy to host school children for any purposes, let alone air experience. A pilot training system that is barely capable of training any who persevere against the odds of being recruited, never mind becoming operational. As to currency, unless sausage side, minimal I suspect. All in all a bad portent for the future. It needs leadership to turn this mess around. In my time there was time to get rid of the deadwood and promote the achievers required. Not anymore. The RAF desperately needs a new Trenchard to make it fit for purpose. Where is he/she?

See? I didn't mention airworthiness once, did I? Doh...

[POBJOY]

I knew the 'organisation' was going the wrong way when they issued grinding goggles for MK111 flying.
I mean when did you ever use a grinder when flying !!!

There was a time when MK8 goggles were issued to winch drivers for eye protection, but they were soon stolen by instructors as they looked so good in photographs (especially with soapy hat). Mine were lent to Neil Williams so he could fly a Sopwith Pup on test.

Sorry its late, I thought the thread said 'Air Cadets Grinded !!!'

[Sky Sports]

https://forum.aircadetcentral.net/

This is well worth a look if you want to see how frustrated the staff have become, and why they are leaving in droves.

[ACW342]

C - Controls - Full & Free
B - Ballast - Not Fitted
S - Straps
I - Instruments (both of them, or was it 3)
T - Trim
C - Canopy - Not Fitted
B - Brakes - Not Fitted but we do have spoilers - Fully Open and in line, Fully Closed.


By 1981 it was:

C - Controls - Full & Free and moving in the correct sense
B - Ballast - Not Fitted(Check!)
S - Straps -Tight and locked
I - Instruments - ASI reading normally, altimeter set to zero.
T - Trim - Not fitted
C - Canopy - Not Fitted
B - Brakes - Not Fitted but we do have spoilers - Fully Open and in line, Fully Closed?[/QUOTE]

In later years for the high performance gliders CBSIFTCB The F being “Flaps - Not Fitted/Set for takeoff.

A342

[ACW367]

VIGILANTS
Photo on Flyer Forums showing a huge pile of Vigilants in pieces.
I'm guessing it was taken at Kemble judging by the '747s parked next to them.
I thought the intention was to re-furbish the Vigis and re-sell them so more MOD money wasted.

You are wrong here. The MOD Disposal Sales team did sell all those to Aerobility in 2020 and MOD got fully paid by that organisation at that point and has zero stake in them now.
Every one of these is civil registered, the CAA authorised them to retain their military markings as is common for what they now are 'Warbirds'. See here
https://www.g109able.org/news/aerobility-launches-grob-program-to-increasedisabled-flying
https://www.g109able.org/faqs
As an example in the photo is tailcode SH - From the GINFO civil register:

Mark: G-CMHV
Current reg. date: 09-Jul-2020
Previous ID:ZJ960
De-reg. date:
-
Status: Registered
Type: GROB G109B
Serial no.: 6556
Airworthiness category: CS-22A : Sailplane or Powered Sailplane - Utility Category
Year built:1990

Registered owner details
Ownership status: Owned
Registered owners:
AEROBILITY HOLDINGS CIC
BLACKBUSHE AIRPORT

The full register block is G-CMGD all the way to G-CMIN.
It was always Aerobility's plan to sell these on the open market. However, it is now the case that Aerobility working with Grob that has decided the refurbishment is too great a challenge (as the MOD had found before taking their disposal decision in 2020) with too small of a potential aftersales market for these 35 year old airframes. Therefore these civil airframes have instead been sold by aerobility to the scrappers. to recover the residual scrap value, offsetting.against the Aerobility initial investment and defray the (high) cost of refurbishment of the few airframes they actually wanted for themselves and which are airworthy with new engines in civll markings.

[POBJOY]

Well the Air Cadets certainly did not get anything from the scandal, and the 'carpet sweep' just got bigger. Amazing how one minute they were going to sell these airframes to subsidise a few for themselves and suddenly, 'Oh its uneconomic' we have to scrap them !!!.
I wonder what happened to the engines, props, and instruments as they would have had a value.
Well the LAA did not think they were scrap, so how did they suddenly 'age' in storage.
The whole refurbishment plan was a nonsense, and a financial one to boot. The aircraft had performed for years in its original state, and had many hours of life left with a simple engine that could be easily OH. It is amazing how much effort can go into trying to cover up the inability of the MOD to keep a fleet of Gliders and SLMG serviceable. All that has happened is there is absolutely no confidence or capability within the service to do anything themselves and that money has poured into 'outsourced' bodies that have also failed to perform. We need to get 'YES MINISTER' back with a new series as the scripts are already there, and the whole sorry process is alive and well.
In fact the whole Motor Glider scenario for the Cadet force had performed well, and was able to fit in with both military and civil airfields with ease. Compared with winches and cables that do not readily interface with power operations and normally utilise a dedicated site the Vig fleet was a step forward for the organisation and was very flexible. As an AE operation it was both available and economic, and it certainly gave the Cadet organisation flying for all.

[RAFEngO74to09]

New facilities at RAF Little Rissington

New accommodation and operational facilities at RAF Little Rissington now 'officially' opened for Air Cadets | Royal Air Force Air Cadets (https://www.raf.mod.uk/aircadets/news/new-accommodation-and-operational-facilities-at-raf-little-rissington-now-officially-opened-for-air-cadets/)

[Sky Sports]

Up until now, the cost of flying cadets has been a closely guarded secret. I’ve just found this on another forum. It’s pretty shocking!


So now we know…thanks to the Comdt and his dial-in. £600 per cadet

Admittedly, its not a cost per hour, but it is a figure that allows a comparison with the BGA world. And one that shows how hideously inefficient the VGS’s are!

A VGS in the midlands flying Air Cadets
£600 per cadet, who, if they’re lucky gets 3 flights during the day. Cost per flight = £200

A BGA club in the midlands flying Air Scouts
£50 per scout, who, if they’re lucky gets 2 flights during the evening. Cost per flight = £25

VGS’s are 8 times as expensive to run as their (equally safe) civilian counterparts!

Ditch the VGS’s, move RAFAC gliding to BGA and you get…
40,000 cadets per year gliding, instead of the measly 5,000, all for the same £3,000,000.

Or, if you want to save money, carry on with the 5,000 per year figure for a cost of £250,000.

Time for a radical change?

[Biggus]

The MOD doesn't do "radical change"...

There are also careers, senior officer posts and pensions to protect.

[POBJOY]

I spoke to some Cadets recently and asked about Gliding as there is a VGS fairly close.
Not good, and mainly down to weather and poss lack of qualified staff which means VGS seems to need input from 2 FTS to operate.
One Cadet who is keen and available has been waiting two years to get airborne so it makes you wonder if this is not unusual.
There was an attempt to get the vigilant fleet refurbed under the LAA and use them for AE, available to youth organisations. It was VERY DOABLE in practice but of course did not pass the scandal of the selection process at MOD and the real worry that it might actually work and then people would wonder why the Cadets had lost them. We all know what actually happened and of course we also the fate of the aircraft ( can not beat a good carpet sweep with an official broom).
The Cadet system has just become another job producer for the RAF who for decades were happy to leave it to volunteers until someone pointed out how much actual training and flying the organisation was doing at so little cost and with so little input from the mother body. Oops cant have that lets reorganise it ourselves with more senior 'paid' staff that will screw it up, and it did.

[bobward]

A few years ago, during one of the Tutor 'pauses', the flying school where I worked approached the ACO to offer their services. We could have flown up to three cadets per sortie, for an hour, for around £200 (this was around ten years ago). We were told the offer had been passed up the chain. We still await a reply. The school operated from a mid-sized regional airport, and had been certified as an ATO by the CAA, so not a 'cowboy' outfit. All the instructors would have met Corps requirements, and we had suitable rooms to accommodate cadets. As I say, the offer was never acknowledged by higher authority. As I was, at that time, an instructor with a local unit, I was embarrassed by this lack of courtesy, and that was where I started to lose my enthusiasm for the organisation. I left in 2018 after 42 years as an instructor, yet, in a way, I still miss the enthusiasm and drive of the cadets and staff members, despite the higher level attitude.

Good luck to those still plugging away there. You all deserve a medal.

[VX275]

A VGS in the midlands flying Air Cadets
£600 per cadet, who, if they’re lucky gets 3 flights during the day. Cost per flight = £200


Maybe if they had worked the cost out based on a proper VGS rather than ACCGS the cost would have been a lot lower.

[Sky Sports]

Maybe if they had worked the cost out based on a proper VGS rather than ACCGS the cost would have been a lot lower.
What is the difference?

[VX275]

What is the difference?
Well as ACCGS operated both the powered and conventional fleet and a Robin for aerotows using full time paid staff and frankly £600 per cadet is believable at the pace they worked. Each VGS had its own operational ethos and obviously operating Vigilants was different to operating Vikings. I would love to see how that £600 figure was achieved.

[Ninthace]

The RAFGSA used to reckon to get you in the air for the price of a pint!

[chevvron]

I know it's difficult to calculate but in my recollection, it was the launch rate which always used to make a difference between a VGS and a BGA/GSA club.
With a VGS, there was always someone there 'chivvying' the cadets to ground handling the gliders and doing other things [like positioning the cables, hanging on to wingtips etc] and in general making the operation more efficient whereas with the BGA/GSA clubs I've visited there were always those who were reluctant to assist, sitting in the caravan waiting for 'their' flight.
At 613, we usually operated AEG with 2 or more aircraft, when a gllder launched it was quickly replaced by the next one to be launched and as soon as a fresh cable arrived the next cadet would be airborne; by spot landing you often got a turnround time of less than 5 minutes with the pilot not even getting out of the aircraft, just a change of cadets. I never saw this at a BGA/GSA club which to me seemed to operate in a very slow and innefficient manner,

[Ninthace]

Not my GSA experience. We used to throw them in the air like there was no tomorrow! Launches paid the insurance bill.
I was a member at Halton (more than once), Cosford, Bruggen and Gutersloh. Usually the launch rate only dropped off when we ran out of aircraft to launch or pilots to fly them. Of course, the other difference that would affect launch rate was the GSA tended to try to stay up whereas the Cadets used to try to get down again.

[Sky Sports]

I would love to see how that £600 figure was achieved.

Air cadet gliding cost £3,000,000 last year, and the VGS’s managed to get 5,000 cadets airborne. That’s £600 per cadet.

[Big Pistons Forever]

There seems to be a lot of worries over health and safety with the cadet glider program, but how many cadets were actually hurt under the current glider program when the air cadet program moved to the current glass gliders and motor gliders, but before the "pause" ?

[chevvron]

There seems to be a lot of worries over health and safety with the cadet glider program, but how many cadets were actually hurt under the current glider program when the air cadet program moved to the current glass gliders and motor gliders, but before the "pause" ?
In the 'wooden' era I experienced one fatality and two accidents which involved broken legs in the period 1964 to 1970; I'm sure there were more but we didn't get to hear about them all except when there were 'D' Notices issued so of course they were hushed up.

[POBJOY]

The simple facts regarding the 'MK3' type of operation was that was unique to the Air Cadets. We had a very simple reliable machine that was easily adapted for trolley retrieve as opposed to 'walk backs' from mid field. In the case of A&B training this meant that aircraft could be back on line sometimes before cables arrived. When the AE really got going, then the line would be arranged to allow for spot landings at the t-off point and then the crew could stay on board.
With a couple of twin drum winches the launch rate was amazing, and we used to give AE cadets 3 launches as the norm. This was not only good for the Cadets but also gave the P2/UT instructors a concentrated experience level.
Being a w-end operation meant we could not guarantee low launch solo's compared to a continuous course, so it also highlighted how continuity also played its part.
In hindsight the system could not be improved on as a producer of 'Solo's' but of course it also provided an amazing experience for youngsters that were not even 'streamed' for capability. That was the ATC USP, and it could never be improved on due to the simplicity of the equipment and mega enthusiasm of the youngsters who were also a major part in the hands on operation. A bit like the Bumble Bee that does not know he can not fly the ATC ran like it did because they did not know any other way, and of course they were correct. My goodness how lucky we were to have had that magic time before it was 'organised' !!!!. Oh and by the way it was also SAFE, and that was because the system was CAPABLE end of.