When is the next cull at QF Engineering?

[CoolB1Banana]

It depends if the company want it to drag on for six months plus or if they want it all to be over in a few weeks. Last on first off is the quickest and easiest method. If you're crunching numbers on how much it will cost to re-train LAMEs then you are looking too far into it. It is and always has been about LAME scalps. Nastyswine and his Yank mate (am I the only one sick of being referred to as 'folks') were tasked with one thing: to reduce the number of LAMEs. After all the money our EBA negotiations have cost them over the last 10 years (shutting down the entire airline at one stage), you can bet they've got an open cheque book to make it happen.

[Romulus]

It depends if the company want it to drag on for six months plus or if they want it all to be over in a few weeks. Last on first off is the quickest and easiest method.

And is also not legal as a redundancy methodology.

Redundancy means exactly that, they can only make positions redundant not specific people, i.e. they can determine positions they will not refill, the position must be removed permanently, and the person (or one of the people) who fills that role is then made redundant. It is based on operational requirements and (in theory) nothing else.

So yes, it IS likely that legacy LAMEs will be made redundant because those are the roles that will be removed. Specifically, if Qantas take out the 767 fleet and then make 767 LAMEs redundant then that can be defined as an operationally driven decision (same for 747).

It would be likely that a dual licenced LAME with a type that remains in the fleet would have an argument to be made redundant after a 767 or 747 only person or even a dual 747/767 person.

[Workers Perspective]

I reckon the 767/747 Lame could then argue why he wasn't trained on a new gen aircraft. I here a lot of the legacy Lames talking about a class action due to insufficient training.

[Romulus]

I reckon the 767/747 Lame could then argue why he wasn't trained on a new gen aircraft. I here a lot of the legacy Lames talking about a class action due to insufficient training.

Like it or not training is a privilege, not a right.

Question could be asked why they did not undertake training themselves to boost their skills.

[Short_Circuit]

It is no accident the older Boeing boys have not been airbus trained even though they should have been on the top of the training list (see selection criteria). CT let is slip a few years ago ie. >45 and only Boeing, your going.
Best of luck to you guys shafted yet again, at least you are probably so pissed already you are happy to go. Maybe there is some avenue of legal action because of discrimination, what do you think Fed Sec.
PS. if you are B2, it's U2.

[AEROMEDIC]

Like it or not training is a privilege, not a right

Well, not quite.

Training is according to the business requiring more licences for a type or types and at the moment it seems to be zero.

[Short_Circuit]

Qantas will not recognise non QF Training, why waste your money unless you are moving to Virgin. Plenty have done extra training but the mighty QF will not pay, oh, except for a select few just recently, probably hoping many more will spend their own money on training and QF shut the training school.

[ConcernedLAME]

Unfortunately redundancies will be made as a business decision .

It seems some people are trying to believe we are still in the golden years and full of entitlement .

Alas we are not ... So be realistic guys .


Good luck to you all .

[CoolB1Banana]

The big Yank knows we will make his life hell for months if he doesn't make it quick and fair as possible. If you think you are safe just because you jagged a new gen you are dreaming.

[QFBUSBOY]

Maybe those Base guys who recently did their B737NG will save their bacon and have their licences recognised.

Either way, if you don't train yourself these days, you run the risk of not only redundancy, but not getting picked up by another employer. You only have to see how many LAMEs from other companies are paying for their own training.

Good luck to all involved.

[Silverado]

Romulus, whats your take on redundancies in a department thats actually increasing headcount?

Do you think it's legal to make someone redundant only to replace them with another?

[600ft-lb]

If everyone were instantly replaceable perhaps it wouldn't be strictly legal, but they are not. In Sydney, the numbers and licences have all gone into the same bucket so it seems.

My advice, if you want to stay in this industry do your own training make yourself employable. It's your licence at the end of the day, not Qantas's. Otherwise look elsewhere. Pair that with the face that the industry has been totally decimated perhaps by Qantas, perhaps by the AUD, perhaps by unfavourable business environment compared to outsourcing over the last 10 years whatever it is, the 'good old days' are gone and they're not coming back.

Just take a look at the ghost town Sydney now is compared to 10 years ago when there was 707s, 767s, 747s, base maintenance, EOC, engine line, apu line, 95% foreign operators contracted to SIO. A mere shadow of that exists today, just reminders everywhere. AVV gone, MEL heavy gone, CFM56 engine line gone.

Besides, this is AJ's last throw of the dice with regards to Qantas. What's to say the year after he won't burn through another $700+million, it won't be long before the receivers are called in. But at least we have corporate mouthpiece propaganda 'Q-Tube' to tell us everything is good, everything is great, wherever we go.

[Silverado]

If everyone were instantly replaceable perhaps it wouldn't be strictly legal, but they are not. In Sydney, the numbers and licences have all gone into the same bucket so it seems.

I don't think it's that easy for them. There are 4 distinct departments in SYD, one of which is growing.

You can't make someone redundant, if the position remains! They should have shuffled all the decks before they announced the redundancies, if they wanted to get away with this!

[600ft-lb]

All I can say is good luck with your assertions. Qantas will never not in a million years make a 738 guy redundant whilst keeping a 767 guy then training him up to replace the 738 guy they made redundant, both of whom work in the same precinct.

[CoolB1Banana]

I think there is a very good chance the blokes made redundant this round will be looked back on as the lucky ones. Once the liquidators step in there will be no golden handshakes. You'll be lucky to walk away with your basic entitlements.

[Silverado]

If Qantas wanted to reduce headcount in the "Sydney Precinct" they should have listed it as "Sydney Precinct", but they didn't.

Instead they separated it into 4 distinct area's (ports). Each with it's own tally of Current FTE and Future FTE.

So for them to claim that employees in SAM are redundant, whilst bolstering numbers in the same department is preposterous.

It is their assertion that Sydney is 4 separate departments(ports) both current and future! Not mine!

[Workers Perspective]

All I can say is good luck with your assertions. Qantas will never not in a million years make a 738 guy redundant whilst keeping a 767 guy then training him up to replace the 738 guy they made redundant, both of whom work in the same precinct.
This all depends on what selection criteria Qantas and Alaea agree on.

[Boeing buster]

Hi all
Wanted to repost this for those interested
http://www.change.org/en-AU/petitions/the-qantas-airways-limited-board-of-directors-sack-qantas-ceo-alan-joyce-2#

[Boeing buster]

Surely these clowns must have a selection criteria.
When they announced Lame redundancies last year they seemed to have little idea about a criteria that would holdup under scrutiny, didn't they learn from the last time. Excuse me if I've missed something, am I missing something
BB

[Boeing buster]

What's the latest.
Has the latest announcements of redundancies affected QF AVA Lame's wishing to relocate. Does the closure advantage or disadvantage those at Avalon who wish to redeploy compared to guys at other ports?
From what I understand HR completely fu,ked up the the MEL Heavy process. Have they continued their good form ?

[Nassensteins Monster]

Surely these clowns must have a selection criteria.
When they announced Lame redundancies last year they seemed to have little idea about a criteria that would holdup under scrutiny, didn't they learn from the last time. Excuse me if I've missed something, am I missing something

They know who they want to keep and get rid of. They know you by face and name. They have been over your file and your eQ records. Whether they get their way is "subject to consultation".

[Short_Circuit]

Correct, they modify selection criteria to match the names they want gone.

[Silverado]

Correct, they modify selection criteria to match the names they want gone.

I'm sure they have already earmarked those they want gone, and I'm sure that is all the guys without a new gen. However by listing SYD into 4 "ports" and listing SAM as growing, they may have kicked an own goal:D

[Romulus]

Romulus, whats your take on redundancies in a department thats actually increasing headcount?

Do you think it's legal to make someone redundant only to replace them with another?

It depends on the actual job being made redundant. The department may grow in other areas but if certain roles are no longer required then those positions are declared redundant and the people filling them are redundant.

Those roles CANNOT be refilled otherwise it is not a legitimate redundancy.

The roles must be clearly different eg Line LAME v Base LAME, 737 LAME v 767 LAME etc.

If you want to boost Line LAMEs by hiring more of them than you make Base LAMEs redundant then the dept could possibly grow (or you could hire more supervisors, managers etc) whilst also making people redundant.

Logically if you could redeploy people elsewhere that makes a lot of sense, but it is not mandatory to do so.

[Silverado]

It depends on the actual job being made redundant.

Its not going to be that easy for instance, to tell a 747 LAME he is redundant whilst 9 747 aircraft are remaining in the fleet and his department is growing.

[CoolB1Banana]

The Workplace Determination states we are all employed as LAMEs. The only distinction made is the department you are in.

The legal advice I have received is that if the company terminates your employment as a LAME and replaces you with another LAME it is not considered a redundancy.

Can anyone feel a class action for unfair dismissal coming on?

There are also tax ramifications if the ATO don't consider it to be a "bona fide redundancy".

[yehyeh]

You are not being replaced. 175 Lames are being removed from the Sydney business, they are redundant, gone forever.

SDO will lose Lames that have NG endorsements.
That's a fact

[Romulus]

Silverado: If the Dept is taking on more LAMEs and you are employed as a LAME then it would seem highly likely to not be a genuine case of redundancy. The devil may be in the details, there may well be different positions or somesuch that they may be able to use as selection criteria rather than the blanket "we are all LAMEs" that is presumed to be correct but may not be so. Note that location is a valid selection criteria so if they have too many LAMEs in Sydney but not enough in Brisbane then they can make positions redundant in Sydney whilst employing in Brisbane.

CoolB1: Correct. The tax office in particular are very clear in this regard due to the "benefits" of the eligible termination legislation with regard to tax taken.

[hadagutfull]

From listening to the various management views, I think their opinion is that lame positions will be made redundant first , then a re distribution of the remaining numbers. It's hard to make a lot of sense out of this whole plan.
It's hard to get a straight answer at the moment.
Perhaps the union can clarify without breaking the confidentiality of their consultation process??

[Silverado]

Based on the numbers presented to the ALAEA (which have been sent to members via email)

2 LMO "ports" are increasing in LAME headcount "PER" and "SAM", yet PER is apparently the only port not included in the redundancy EOI.

SDO will lose Lames that have NG endorsements.
That's a fact

Thats pretty clear and many will be transferred to SAM.

You'd have to think that those who also hold the 744 would be earmarked for the transfer, being that the 744 ticket is worthless at SDO?

[CoolB1Banana]

The Association meeting with the company tomorrow and the latest 'criteria' expected to be tabled.

Some that think it is simply a case of: legacy licences only and you're gone/new gen and you're safe, may be in for a bit of a shock.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We don't intend to talk about criteria tomorrow. We have a million questions about the first presentation they gave us last week.

[CoolB1Banana]

With the fast-track schedule managers are talking about. I think they will want to 'consult' you about it

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

They don't always get what they want.

[nut turner]

Maybe it's what the members want.

[CoolB1Banana]

Most guys I talk to just want to know where they stand as soon as possible. We just want to get on with our lives.

People are hungry for info. No more cloak and dagger crap.

[Clipped]

People are hungry for info. No more cloak and dagger crap.

Ask your management!

Silly me.

[Romulus]

Most guys I talk to just want to know where they stand as soon as possible. We just want to get on with our lives.

People are hungry for info. No more cloak and dagger crap.

That's the core of it. People know it is coming, they just want to know what. It will never be an easy discussion, it will never be a happy discussion, there is likely to be a whole lot of emotion involved.

But above anything else people should be treated as adults and with respect. If they are to be made redundant then tell them so, give them their options and let them choose (assuming there are options for finish dates, alternative employment elsewhere etc) what they wish to do.

Given the scale of Qantas redundancies being talked about arrange common finish dates and give people the dignity of a farewell at the local pub. Again, that won't be a joyous gathering but it allows people to say goodbye to workmates and gives some form of genuine closure.

Whether that happens or not is a different matter, but the humanity of the people and the situation should never be overlooked.

[buttmonkey1]

a quick redundancy is a good redundancy in my book.

[Arnold E]

a quick redundancy is a good redundancy in my book.

No redundancy is a good redundancy in my book.
I have been made redundant 4 times.:{

[Short_Circuit]

Although some have been given marching orders already, it seems that in Sydney, 30 June is when the slaughter is to be enacted. The boys at Sydney fabrication shop have been handed papers, find a position elsewhere ( BNE) or go away by 30 June. The rest of the 300 in LMO ( maintenance) still do not know who, how many, or by when or even why?

[buttmonkey1]

doing the 737 chk 2 every second night, increasing the period to 48hrs, rather than every night will let guys go in about 2 weeks. so they said.
This is safety first, worlds best practice :yuk:

[AEROMEDIC]

That's the core of it. People know it is coming, they just want to know what. It will never be an easy discussion, it will never be a happy discussion, there is likely to be a whole lot of emotion involved.

But above anything else people should be treated as adults and with respect. If they are to be made redundant then tell them so, give them their options and let them choose (assuming there are options for finish dates, alternative employment elsewhere etc) what they wish to do.

Given the scale of Qantas redundancies being talked about arrange common finish dates and give people the dignity of a farewell at the local pub. Again, that won't be a joyous gathering but it allows people to say goodbye to workmates and gives some form of genuine closure.

Whether that happens or not is a different matter, but the humanity of the people and the situation should never be overlooked.

Employees at Avalon were unceremoniously tapped on the shoulder at break times, and after returning tooling ID and uniforms, escorted from the premises. Nothing dignified about that and humiliating to boot. I really hope that the remainder doesn't suffer the same indignity.
Many years ago,I was witness to Qantas operating in a similar way in isolated cases, so I know they are capable of being complete bastards.

Perhaps dignity, compassion and humanity will prevail for the Qantas staff.

[Romulus]

Employees at Avalon were unceremoniously tapped on the shoulder at break times, and after returning tooling ID and uniforms, escorted from the premises. Nothing dignified about that and humiliating to boot. I really hope that the remainder doesn't suffer the same indignity.
Many years ago,I was witness to Qantas operating in a similar way in isolated cases, so I know they are capable of being complete bastards.

Perhaps dignity, compassion and humanity will prevail for the Qantas staff.

It is difficult to do right but call people at the start of a Thursday shift, tell them, thank them for their service and make sure they are paid out (inc that full shift). Do the exit requirements, collect the items and have them leave. That Friday you let people commiserate at the local and you pay for it.

Still not pleasant, but at least it's not inhumane.

[Bootstrap1]

Very well put Romulus, if we give you some QF managers emails could you pass this onto them?

[Sunfish]

Romulus on redundancy:

That's the core of it. People know it is coming, they just want to know what. It will never be an easy discussion, it will never be a happy discussion, there is likely to be a whole lot of emotion involved.

But above anything else people should be treated as adults and with respect. If they are to be made redundant then tell them so, give them their options and let them choose (assuming there are options for finish dates, alternative employment elsewhere etc) what they wish to do.

Given the scale of Qantas redundancies being talked about arrange common finish dates and give people the dignity of a farewell at the local pub. Again, that won't be a joyous gathering but it allows people to say goodbye to workmates and gives some form of genuine closure.

Whether that happens or not is a different matter, but the humanity of the people and the situation should never be overlooked.

Very well put, and the obvious delight of Qantas management in NOT doing it that way demonstrates their complete contempt for their workforce and is the core of my own contempt for the Board and Senior management.

I cannot overstate my contempt for these creatures who have been maximising fear uncertainty and doubt among their workforce since I have been on Pprune, starting at least as early as Margaret Jacksons use of the term "legacy airline" to describe the mainline. Folks, just remember that any time you hear the word "legacy" used as an adjective to describe people you are dealing with a proper bastard.

[AEROMEDIC]

It is difficult to do right but call people at the start of a Thursday shift, tell them, thank them for their service and make sure they are paid out (inc that full shift). Do the exit requirements, collect the items and have them leave. That Friday you let people commiserate at the local and you pay for it.

Still not pleasant, but at least it's not inhumane.

It's not that hard to do is it? Not nice, but not hard.

In the future, and if things improve, recruitment will begin. How they were treated at this time will be remembered, particularly by the people you want if they haven't left the country, and you will get the people you deserve.

Folks, just remember that any time you hear the word "legacy" used as an adjective to describe people you are dealing with a proper bastard.

Sunfish,
It's intriguing to see that word "legacy" being used by posters on this forum as well, having adopted the term from the company's use of it to describe licence holders of impending redundant aircraft.
We'll see a lot more use of this word and it's slowly becoming an objectional term. By that I mean that it's used to describe people and licences as parasitic, thereby used in a demeaning way.

[Pappa Smurf]

Personally,i think the sacking of 5000 workers was a call made by Joyce to get the added attention of the government to help them.
It was also spread over 3 years.
Whats the average turnover of staff.
As with any business,there is an over abundance of workers,but in the majority of cases its at the top end and not the working staff.

[Redpanda]

An interesting read..........


Sky Wars: Why Offshore Aircraft Maintenance is a Flawed Strategy - Knowledge@Australian School of Business (http://knowledge.asb.unsw.edu.au/article.cfm?articleId=1854#.Ux_yu4RE-TI.facebook)

[blubak]

To anyone thinking they are going to get any sort of a farewell-you better think again,there is absolutely NO chance of anyone getting 1c more than what they are entitled to,forget about the fact you have devoted most of your life to this industry or employer-you are just a number on the payroll & it gives them great pleasure in telling you they care yet they are happy to feed you the information you need to make a decision at the slowest rate possible whilst you put your life on hold.:ugh:

[Collando]

Shortly the last 747 heavy maintenance check to be carried out at Avalon Australia will depart today.
Thank you to the the people there who have maintained these aircraft to their high standards and helped to provide safe travel for thousands of passengers and crew.
For the 300 who are now redundant, A great show of professionalism to see the aircraft completed a day early. Qantas will never appreciate what they have lost. All the best for your future.

Collando

[CoolB1Banana]

A bit of feedback from the union re yesterday's meeting would be nice.

[Silverado]

CoolB1Banana, your the only one who has said there was to be a meeting? Was there a meeting even held?

[CoolB1Banana]

A few managers told me there was a meeting yesterday.

In fact, maybe there wasn't a meeting. Surely members would be notified if there was going to be an official consultation meeting???

[Romulus]

Very well put Romulus, if we give you some QF managers emails could you pass this onto them?

I can guarantee you they have already read it and circulated it.

Most of the ones I know in QF Eng aren't bad blokes, equally they've never had any real training/advice in how to do this. Most managers sh*t themselves saying "no" to any employee because they think they have to be friends, when it comes to redundancy it takes a very very strong and secure personality to do it properly.

The failing of most redundancy approaches is not a reflection on the personality of the manager, especially not in terms of being vindictive, but in terms of being unable to do a very very unpopular job in a manner that they can live with. Couple that with a lack of proper HR training and they're bereft of knowledge of how to go about it, simple as that. It's easy for senior mgt to say "terminate XXXX people", but they rarely have to do it. Witness how often senior managers get promoted sideways. The dirty work is left to low and mid level managers and they're given nothing in terms of how to do it.

The "change management" program must (IMHO, this is a MUST not a SHOULD) take into account a period of training for the people who will convey the bad news but it rarely does because that's a major cost, and as most people learn quite quickly the people who do the "exiting" are usually on a redundancy list themselves that comes out once they have terminated all the other people.

I don't know if you remember it but there was a George Clooney movie about people in the USA whose entire job is to fly around terminating people so local managers don't have to. That's the crappiest way ever. Managers are paid to manage, and that doesn't just mean for the "happy" announcements. The company should teach people how to do this and provide them with support. I've seen some pretty hard core guys go to pieces when told they have to do this.

One thing I forgot to mention - all the counselling, career assistance, financial advice types should be immediately available to those people who are made redundant. No salesmen types when people are at their most vulnerable, just genuinely independent but paid for by the company advisors.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I am convinced that some managers enjoy deploying redundancy programs. It is as if it is the pinnacle of their entire careers.

[Romulus]

To anyone thinking they are going to get any sort of a farewell-you better think again,there is absolutely NO chance of anyone getting 1c more than what they are entitled to,forget about the fact you have devoted most of your life to this industry or employer-you are just a number on the payroll & it gives them great pleasure in telling you they care yet they are happy to feed you the information you need to make a decision at the slowest rate possible whilst you put your life on hold.

Unfortunately I suspect you are right in this case. It's also part of why I posted it. The cost of giving people a genuine farewell is not mandated by law so it is not required. But the message it sends in terms of treating people with dignity is, in the words of Mastercard, priceless.

Employee engagement at QF isn't great, we all know that. And whilst it would be bizarre to start changing that with how you handle a redundancy program it would actually demonstrate a very clear effort to heal the wounds.

[Romulus]

I am convinced that some managers enjoy deploying redundancy programs. It is as if it is the pinnacle of their entire careers.

Yes, I've met a few of those. As soon as that trait rears its head they are removed. And their career ends. The core ethics and belief system of a person is best demonstrated when they have total power over another human being. If they abuse that position then they must go.

That's not to say they must be soft, but they must be fair, decent and honest in their approach.

[Syd eng]

A bit over 12 months ago I took redundancy and have to admit the exit was pretty quick hand in uniforms, ID sign some forms and a lift to the gate from a TA.
Was erie driving down QANTAS Drive after 20+ years with this "I guess I have done it now" feeling.

There is life after Qantas guys, just the way it ends is not too pleasant.:ok:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Geelong Mayor ‏
Great meeting today along with my $200000 right hand man and the Avalon CEO to discuss advertising campaign for Avalon Airport. Looking forward to the rollout!

But No thought of the 300 Who are now going:ugh::mad::ugh:

[Collando]

BM

There were plenty who wanted to relocate but QANTAS have only offered 2 positions in Brisbane (only 5 were interviewed for these 2 positions if you had 767) and offers were only given to a few in Perth if you had a 737 NG type rating. As most at Avalon had 747 or 767 this has excluded most of them, and all were told there are no positions at any other port. Most are being made redundant with no opportunity to redeploy even if they wanted too. !

[buttmonkey1]

we have moved right past any idea of saving jobs.

[CoolB1Banana]

Silverado CoolB1Banana, your the only one who has said there was to be a meeting? Was there a meeting even held?


A nine hour meeting evidently.

Of the 50 EOIs that have apparently gone in, does anyone have a section or even port breakdown ? Is that 50 LAMEs or does that number include AMEs?

And the 15 jobs available in PER, aren't 5 of those AME positions?

More feedback please.

[buttmonkey1]

Bnelmo had 8x B1 and 3x B2 for the save AVV and SAM eoi.
The newer survey monkey eoi has picked up 8 B1 and 5 B2
at least.

[Sunfish]

I have to agree with Romulus's observations regarding redundancy, they match my experience.

The movie was "up in the air", it was very painful for me to watch, having sat on both sides of the desk.

Up in the Air (3/9) Movie CLIP - How Much Did They Pay You to Give Up on Your Dreams? (2009) HD - YouTube

The narcissists among Qantas management, and there appear to be plenty, would terminate people with an absolutely straight face because they can't empathise with humans.

This is at the core of Qantas's problem: you cannot create and deliver a first class value for money proposition for customers that involves providing terrific customer service as part of the experience if your managers are narcissists. They will always fall short.

[Romulus]

I have to agree with Romulus's observations regarding redundancy, they match my experience.

The movie was "up in the air", it was very painful for me to watch, having sat on both sides of the desk.

Yep, that's the one.

Last time I was made redundant my then boss kept telling me how jealous he was that it wasn't him getting all the free time. I let it slide a couple of times until ultimately I just said "well, I'm more than qualified to do your job so let's swap seats".

The "exit interview" concluded very shortly after that.

Redundancy is what it is. It is not going to change. So be professional and treat people with courtesy and respect and understand that they will most likely be more upset than you, and that is presuming you're a decent human being who doesn't get a kick out of the power trip.

[Bagus]

Few years all these contracting company was advertising guys with 457 visa.now all made redundant.what a joke.AJ in senate inquiry that they are only doing A380 work offshore ,what about 747 and jetstar work.

[Sunfish]

,,,,,and when Putin marches off into the Ukraine next month, China sides with Russia and we side with America...

How smart will outsourcing to offshore businesses look then?


Qantas was a "strategic asset" to Australia, as was Ansett because they had capabilities in the field of aviation maintenance and overhaul at component level that now don't exist and will cost billions and take time to re-establish. This is 1939 all over again.

[LeeJoyce]

The offshore JQ work probably does not count as when the planes come back the are U/S and need to be fixed again ;)

[AEROMEDIC]

This is 1939 all over again.

Sunfish,

Really? That's drawing a long bow.

Yes, it IS a strategic asset, but not exactly 1939.
If it all turns pear shaped for the Ukraine and the West becomes seriously involved, I am not sure that the effect will be a problem for any outsourcing.
The locations where outsourcing is being carried out is far and away from the Ukraine, or have I overlooked something?

Travel in the region WILL be affected, but unless things escalate, it's hard to see your view.

[CoolB1Banana]

Can you take all the WW3 crap somewhere else please.

I'm sure most people read this thread in an attempt to get some info about them losing their jobs or not.

Especially when we seem to be getting more feedback from the company than our own union.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Last notice or info on union web site months old they must have lost hundreds of members now with all the cuts.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Why do you need to go to the website when emails have been sent to members? Looks like you've inadvertently answered the question asked of you many times Jethro.

[Gas Bags]

Where too now it is all over Jethro?

[Prolapsed Annulus]

We had a further meeting today with Qantas to discuss recent announcements that will most likely lead to redundancies. We made it clear that we did not want to discuss any selection criteria that could apply should compulsory redundancies be needed. We requested that Qantas not release any criteria or drive any speculation on how CR could be selected.
For us the most important goal is to ensure that there are no forced redundancies. In order for that to occur there is a requirement for Qantas to take steps to obviate (avoid) this need or mitigate (reduce) the effect of any redundancy program. The primary method to do this is for people to select transfers to locations where there are jobs. We are concerned that a known criteria may reduce the pool of people who are prepared to move and force others out the door.
Discussions today about selection processes would also send a message that CR is unavoidable and consume valuable time arguing about something we are trying to avoid. If CR becomes inevitable we will debate Qantas about it at that point in time.
We have advised Qantas that they can release any employee who has requested to leave voluntarily at their leisure. We have also told them they can commence the process to move those persons who have selected a move to one of the three ports where jobs are available as a first preference now. EOIs at this stage are planned to end on 2nd April 2014, members who would like to change their selected preference can do so up until that date.
At this stage there are 10 LAME vacancies in Perth, 7 in Brisbane LMO, 2 in Brisbane Base and 3 in Darwin. There are also still 17 LAMEs from Avalon seeking employment somewhere within the system who add to the 175 announced during this round (total 192). VRs to date number 56 plus an outstanding number of 17 from an earlier Avalon EOI process (total 73). A breakdown per section is as follows –
Mel Line - 58 to go, 28 VRs, outstanding 30.
Adl Line – 13 to go, 5 VRs, outstanding 8.
Bne Line – 12 to go, 19 VRs, 7 vacancies.
CE Syd – 9 to go, 1 VR, outstanding 8.
SDT – 24 to go, 2 VR, 22 outstanding.
SAM Syd – 34 to go, 9 VRs, 25 outstanding.
Per Line – none to go, 10 vacancies.
Drw Line – none to go, 3 vacancies.
Bne Base – none to go, 2 vacancies.
SIT – 25 to go, no VRs, 25 outstanding.


I think a few more may emerge from the woodwork...

[CoolB1Banana]

I wonder how many International and Domestic guys will reconsider VR or relocation when they find out they are going to be sent to Servicing?

[KrispyKreme]

Coolb1banana, what is your problem with terminal guys and girls? You seem to dislike them every time you get a chance....

[CoolB1Banana]

No problem, nor dislike Krispy. We are all just pawns in this game after all. Merely commenting on the lack of interest in VR from the terminals, particularly International.

I'm surprised no one is ready to pull the pin, especially some of the older guys. I'm sure you will agree that the possibility of night shifts and a different style of work may affect that decision.

Chill out.

[griffin one]

Why would anyone pull the pin regardless of where they work?
most are passionate about what they do and don't want to leave.
Coolb1 sounds as if you're so worried about a terminal guy taking your spot,as you said
CHILL

[CoolB1Banana]

No worries Griffin, the paper overalls in 245 tool crib come in all sizes big fella.

[Talkwrench]

Steve,

Does the ALAEA include Brisbane Base Maintenance in the statement:

We have advised Qantas that they can release any employee who has requested to leave voluntarily at their leisure.

I understand that Qantas regards Brisbane Base Maintenance as a "Growth Port" but, although I don't know officially, I do know there are a number of guys at BNE BM that have spoken of wanting a VR.

Will the ALAEA be asking Qantas to open up VR's in BNE BM?

I guess from Qantas' perspective, they would need to backfill any VR's from BNE BM with other LAME's within the network that have the required licences.

Do you think there would be any LAME's around the network that would be prepared to move into BNE BM to avoid being made redundant?

If not, there are a number of AME's with their B1/B2 diplomas ready for type training. There are even some AME's with a CASA licence already, just waiting for a slot to be made up into LAME's.

Perhaps these guys could be made up and the AME position they leave vacant could be backfilled by another AME from around the network?

[GorillaInTheMist]

Cool b1 think u'll find the international has been losing staff since the sq contract was lost (20guys) followed by the vr due cut of contracts ( under tony green) and every year basically since. There's minimal older guys left

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Yes to all questions mate.

[Talkwrench]

Thanks Steve.

[CoolB1Banana]

The word from ASU reps is that as each new EBA is negotiated, redundancy will be capped at 40wks pay! All part of Mister-rabbit's "get your house in order" mandate for the Libs to push the QSA changes through.

Add that to AJ's "total wage freeze" until the company makes money again (never) and our T&Cs are screwed!

[stuntcock]

I'm sure a few guys will put there hand up for VR from the Terminals if they find out they are being sent to base , hope to find out before 2nd April .
The new EBA's look like ****

[Jet-A-One]

If you want to leave QF with a golden handshake, now is the time to go. This will be the last round under current redundancy entitlements. After our current Workplace Determination expires, you can bet your left nut, redundancy entitlements will be capped under the new Enterprise Agreement, in line with industry standards. Take a look at the redundancy entitlements in the Virgin and Jetstar EAs if you want to know where we are headed. Our redundancy entitlement is the first benefit AJ wants to erode and our misogynist national leader will be doing all he can to help make that happen, mark my words.

[Arnold E]

our misogynist national leader will be doing all he can to help make that happen, mark my words.


Just as a matter of interest, did you by chance vote for this guy last election?

[lamem]

FEDSEC

What info do you have on QF plans to limit redundancy payouts in the future. That will be one of the most important factors for the majority who are teetering on the brink of an EOI.

[rat fink]

Its a massive factor lamem.. We all know to well that some of the members getting massive payout figures are still umming and arring.... "just another 18 months to 2 years would be nice" Its a double edged sword unfortunately.. on one side if it happens some of the younger guys jobs might be saved.. on the other side any future redundancies will place people in worse position financially. Personally I think its a bit greedy staying around for an extra couple of years when you can walk out now with a nice handshake.

[CoolB1Banana]

And then there's the guys who wait until after their 65th birthday and pay the full whack of tax on their redundancy. I know of one guy that's done just that to reach a years of service "milestone". :ugh:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Look they can't change your redundancy entitlements with current laws in place unless we sign a new EBA with lower payouts. I am tipping the blokes wouldn't support that.


Qantas could apply for a variation to the WD but it would unlikely be supported by FWA, in fact we are not aware of any company in the country reducing the payout entitlements within an EBA without mutual consent.

[Jet-A-One]

Once the QSA amendments go through, our bargaining position doesn't look too good. It will be a case of consent or we'll outsource you all!

[Prolapsed Annulus]

they can't change your redundancy entitlements with current laws in place...I'm playing devil's advocate here...

What if a max redundancy payout of 40 weeks is passed into legislation? The company has no choice but to implement it into all EBAs.

The next election can be held some time between 6 Aug & 7 Jan 2016, as early as two-and-a-half years from now, barring a double dissolution election, for which there are several potential triggers like abolishing the mining tax, so it could theoretically happen even sooner.

Single term Federal governments are extremely rare in the last 60 years and to topple this Govt it would need a stronger Opposition than this one, which had one of the biggest swings in history against it at the last election. And given the current talent pool in the Labor Opposition, playing with what's left of the Rudd/Gillard/Rudd "C" team, they couldn't run a chook raffle or fight their way out of a wet paper bag. I reckon the Govt can afford to lose some skin in the next election and the agenda will be brutal for the labour movement.

I expect that the next EA negotiation is going to be tortuous given the company's position on wage freezes. As tortuous as EBAVIII perhaps? Will the Coalition tip their hand to some leading corporates with IR issues about their second term IR agenda? Will QF use delaying tactics in the hope of legislative change? Will the ALAEA be forced to play a short game to get a deal stitched up and accept lower conditions to avoid the threat of even worse?

The Coalition Govt have stated a "no surprises" first three years - but in their first 6 months we've already seen a couple: the attempt to wind back financial advice laws and weaken the Racial Discrimination Act. How many more surprises will there be, especially with the Coalition's announced focus on culling "unnecessary" legislation?

Abbott has ruled out a GST increase and IR change in the first term, but he is sitting back and letting others do the advocating for him to convince the public of the need for both - both within the party and outside it. And what is happening at Holden, Qantas, SPC, Toyota etc - ie the constant talk of "higher labour rates and overly geneous T&Cs" - is playing right into his hands.

For those wanting "just another couple of years", they should be thinking a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush... I would be having a good long hard think about taking the money while it is there. If as is likely there is a wage freeze then the redundancy payout does not significantly increase outside of super. If the max redundancy payout of 40 weeks comes to pass, then those currently sitting on or close to the max redundancy may be working for worse than nothing over the next couple of years. What is the potential loss of half your ETP worth to you? And by going now you may just save the job of someone who REALLY REALLY needs to stay afloat for the sake of his young family.

Just my two bobs worth...

[CoolB1Banana]

Inevitably, greed will end in regret for some.

[ozaggie]

Arise, Sir Prolapsed, you do you're country well!:)

[Prolapsed Annulus]

Arise, Sir Prolapsed, you do you're country well!:)

Like I said, I'm playing devils advocate. Don't get me wrong, I do NOT support what I see occurring on the political landscape. The whole knights and dames thing is just a sign of how backwardly ideologically far-right this PM's instincts are. And every govt despite its best endeavours is influenced by its leaders views. Not even John Howard tried to pull some of the sh!t Abbott is trying on.

I'm just being a realist and trying to put things in perspective for those teetering on the "I'd like to stay but don't really need to stay" edge.

[Redstone]

Prolapse, it just seems like more fall out from the Deutschemark Conspiracy. And so it goes....

[Ngineer]

on one side if it happens some of the younger guys jobs might be saved.. on the other side any future redundancies will place people in worse position financially. Personally I think its a bit greedy staying around for an extra couple of years when you can walk out now with a nice handshake.

Whilst I will not comment personally on the reasons some long timers are hanging on, maybe the company would be considerate enough to build an employment list of those made redundant so that they may be offered a position immediately when labor requirements pick-up or if a position opens (anywhere within the Qf group & subsids). It would be good to see this happen so those effected have some hope of rejoining the industry rather than employing fresh blood, or ramping up an apprenticeship scheme again for future employees with little future ahead.

[Clipped]

I do NOT support what I see occurring on the political landscape

PA (nice name) I share in your POV. Big business and the LNP creating artificial crises to fast track their right wing ideologies whilst blaming labour costs and unionism. It all stinks.

Unfortunately, both AJ and the Libs have made it glaringly obvious their agendas and many of us will have to bear the pain until some rationale is restored.

Just watching our latest ordained Knight receive his accolades. His time on the QF Board was very conveniently omitted. Hope he achieves more in his more ceremonial endeavours.

Great work Steve in challenging the redundo numbers. keep up the good work. To them - its just a numbers game.

[Ngineer]

I agree, just a thought to try keep some options open.

[Romulus]

Not just an Australian/Qantas issue

Complete Plant Closure, By Order of Lufthansa Technik Airmotive Ireland. Major Global Online Auction Featuring Thousands of World Class Assets to a CFM International, Pratt & Whitney and International Aero Engine V2500 Maintenance and Overhaul Facili (http://www.hgpauction.com/auctions/58403/lufthansa-technik-airmotive-ireland/)

[Pimp Daddy]

Ngineer - the guys from the subsidiaries who have been made redundant probably should get first go to return to their jobs dontcha think?

[Clipped]

It is interesting, reading elsewhere, the future projections of growth for aviation. The number of airliners needed to meet this demand, especially in the Asia/Pacific region, has Boeing and Airbus salesman salivating.

How is it we do not have the business acumen to be ready for this wave? Are we gonna miss the boat? In Q's case, dodge the traffic on the freeway and miss the action? Winding down heavy maintenance, line maintenance, outsource component/engine maintenance and supply, reduced apprentice intakes and few training centres - our industry's future doesn't look so bright.

Despite what airline exec's and airliner salesman tell you, someone has to maintain these planes.

Hang on. Since it's just a numbers game, is it about getting a LAME for $40/hr, Cat A's for $25/hr and so on? Is the landscape here just being realigned using our Asian neighbours as the new metric?

[Ngineer]

Ngineer - the guys from the subsidiaries who have been made redundant probably should get first go to return to their jobs dontcha think?


Yep, never stated otherwise. (If you can fill out a job application correctly, that is).

[rivet head]

Just heard on the grapevine, LMCE boss RP .gone.

[CoolB1Banana]

There are still half a dozen or so managers to go at RPs level so that wouldn't surprise me.

So the "criteria" has been tabled at the consultation meeting.
When do members actually get to see it?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We aren't distributing the rubbish, the company are. They only gave us the Sydney Domestic version.

[Redstone]

I suspect any "criteria" will just be last times list that has been sitting in a drawer somewhere.

[CoolB1Banana]

The criteria being circulated by ops managers is different to last time but the basic intent remains. As I've said before, some who think having a 738, 330 or 380 will keep them safe may be in for a shock.

The company seems inclined to push on with the process. Does anyone know if there is a date they want people out the door by?

The union are obviously trying to slow the process as much as possible but I tend to think it is just delaying the inevitable - they will get their numbers eventually. Most guys I talk to, whether they feel at risk or not, just want it to be over ASAP. If I'm to be made redundant I'd rather the process happen as quickly as possible, certainly before they cap redundancy pay outs.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The ALAEA have received countless pieces of corro from members. The only people who appear to be calling for the process to be done and dusted quickly are the blokes who have nothing to worry about. Anyone who is at risk wants no stone left unturned to find jobs.


To put things in perspective. Qantas are rolling about 20 changes into one process that they wanted completed after four meetings. Any one of the changes would normally take approximately 10 meetings, possibly with the assistance of fair work Australia. Some of the changes they are rolling into this include -




Killing all 738 E checks.
Creating new A checks that occur less regularly and are smaller checks.
Creating a new HV1 check that is transferring wrok from tarmacs to heavy.
culling rovers in Sydney from an average of 6 to and average of 1.
Taking all towing from Sydney tarmacs and having it done by base with an 8 man crew who stop work at 6 pm.
Adelaide roster change.
Brisbane roster change.
Removing work due to aircraft retirements.
Transferring work to LAX.
Removing the Sydney leave burn program.
Changing 744 A check content.
Extending 738 check 2's from 36 hours to 48 hours.
Reducing the number of Senior LAMEs and making crews bigger.
Countless other changes hidden in their fabricated and often false consultation documents.



The plan is simple. Flood the union with changes and then pretend that consultation has been extensive with the union wasting time. In their new plans they don't even have staff allocated to depart A380 aircraft.


Anyone who wants the ALAEA to sit back, sip tea and munch on iced vovos with management as they rush through change may be in the wrong union. We will challenge things we know will not work to protect every job.

[Collando]

First Qantas CRs at Avalon beginning end of next week. 30% of staff only redeployed. The only criteria for redeployment depended on which licences held. No other factors considered ! Qantas management blame the ALAEA, and like for like criteria for job swaps. Have seen someone turned down for consideration to go to Brisbane due to having too many licences? Go figure. Most of the oldest serving who are taking VR and getting the biggest packages allowed to stay till June to help with decommissioning, while others being bundled out in a few weeks. Once again no fair process around this. Not sure if the Alaea aware of this, or is it all a forgone conclusion. Certainly no stalling here.

[Alexfrench75]

Meanwhile, Qantaslink has seen substantial growth across the network. Additional engineering capacity has been put on with plenty of training being given out to try and catch up with demand.

Yet the ALAEA Fed Sec Mr Steve Pervinis remains remarkably silent on an EBA which expired in 2009. Clearly this is not a union for the industry but a Qantas mainline collective fighting for the way things were 15 years ago. Are you aware Mr ALAEA Fed Sec that your best buddy Mick Reegan has single handedly shown every single new Qlink employee that the ALAEA is a parasitic organisation that has become almost identical to CASA with regard to its relationship with the people it's supposed to look out for?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[Jet-A-One]

EOI extended another week now including the option of BNE Line. Plus "I only want to be considered for my current position", I assume this is for the terminal guys that would rather take a package than transfer to the hangars?

[Cactusjack]

Bring back Collin.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/CairnsAirport/d2e5aa94-b1c0-4455-9118-0727c5474482/New_Board_Member_for_NQA.pdf

At least he didn't support the notion of sack all the staff to save money.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It looks like Ian Oldmeadow has moved from reader to contributor.

[AEROMEDIC]

Meanwhile, Qantaslink has seen substantial growth across the network. Additional engineering capacity has been put on with plenty of training being given out to try and catch up with demand.

If you call replacing Qanas services with Qanaslink "growth". Hobart, for example, as seen such a situation. Pretending to offer Qantas services and then swap to Qantaslink is plain dumb. The customers know what's going on and are voting with their feet to fly Virgin. Naturally this will compound the problem and serves nicely to assist management in extracting themselves from "non profitable routes".

[buttmonkey1]

EOI extended another week now including the option of BNE Line.


I didn't see that option on the survey monkey,
is anyone selecting relocation there.
something like 4 b2 and 2 b1 spots up for grabs, apparently.http://imageshack.com/a/img853/8599/qfbb.jpg

[griffin one]

I only want to be considered for my current position and f$&k u if you think I'm going to even reply to your email.
What a joke this selection criteria is so many holes.

This is only phase 1 more to come post June

[CoolB1Banana]

Does anyone have any idea how the years of service component of their "criteria" is actually calculated? 20% of what?

[Bagus]

Who is winning,Unions trying to save jobs,but jobs are being lost,Management are sacking and sending jobs offshore,workers are having sleepless night thinking if his jobs are safe,some doing deals,while management more secret plans organizing.management know unions are divided

SOME ONE NEED TO WAKE UP.

[Nassensteins Monster]

Does anyone have any idea how the years of service component of their "criteria" is actually calculated? 20% of what? Precisely. The poor wee souls delivering this rubbish don't even know. "It's up for negotiation" they say. But a negotiation must have a starting point or initial position that both sides are aware of, then reach a mutually agreeable compromise. Years of service MUST be considered as per the Workplace Determination. To do otherwise invites legal action in the FWC. So... Put it on the table guys!

I cannot believe that the ops managers are expected to feed these presentations to the guys. On occasion they are being fed to the lions - I sometimes feel sorry for them when they get their ar$es chewed and handed back to them a masticated mess. And delivering the news that "last week you were looking pretty safe but now... not so much" and vice versa at 2am on a nightshift is an emotional roller-coaster and a human factors nightmare. "Oh but it's likely to change after the next consultation" is not exactly easing anyone's mind.

Failing to provide a COMPLETE initial position on licenses, operational skills, leadership AND years of service is to reveal the REAL reason for the selection criteria being disseminated. Conflate a sense of crisis. Have people tossing and turning at night. Scare the horses so they bolt for the exits - redeployment to BNE, PER or VR. Give people the sh!ts so bad that they are happy to walk away from the toxicity for the sake of their mental and physical wellbeing. They did it when they closed down H245 and they're doing it again. It is not consultation. It is fear-mongering. Frankly, it's cruel. And there are laws against it.

From the Australian Human Rights Commission:

What does bullying in the workplace look like?

repeated hurtful remarks or attacks, or making fun of your work or you as a person (including your family, sex, sexuality, gender identity, race or culture, education or economic background)
sexual harassment, particularly stuff like unwelcome touching and sexually explicit comments and requests that make you uncomfortable
excluding you or stopping you from working with people or taking part in activities that relates to your work
playing mind games, ganging up on you, or other types of psychological harassment
intimidation (making you feel less important and undervalued)
giving you pointless tasks that have nothing to do with your job
giving you impossible jobs that can't be done in the given time or with the resources provided
deliberately changing your work hours or schedule to make it difficult for you
deliberately holding back information you need for getting your work done properly
pushing, shoving, tripping, grabbing you in the workplace
attacking or threatening with equipment, knives, guns, clubs or any other type of object that can be turned into a weapon
initiation or hazing - where you are made to do humiliating or inappropriate things in order to be accepted as part of the team.

How bullying can affect your work
If you are being bullied at work you might:


be less active or successful
be less confident in your work
feel scared, stressed, anxious or depressed
have your life outside of work affected, e.g. study, relationships
want to stay away from work
feel like you can’t trust your employer or the people who you work with
lack confidence and happiness about yourself and your work
have physical signs of stress like headaches, backaches, sleep problems

Your employer is allowed to transfer, demote, discipline, counsel, retrench or sack you (as long as they are acting reasonably)

When you are being bullied it's important that you know there are things you can do and people who can help.

Responsibility of employers

Your employer has a legal responsibility under Occupational Health and Safety and anti-discrimination law to provide a safe workplace. Employers have a duty of care for your health and wellbeing whilst at work. An employer that allows bullying to occur in the workplace is not meeting this responsibility.
My bold.

To the ops managers, I'd think twice before so amenably presenting more of the same. You're between a rock and a hard place, I know, but you have obligations under the law and the company's own policies that supersede your employment contract.

I think it was Lyell that said incremental change is not an option - they must make step change. People fearing for their jobs are more amenable to step change. THAT is what it is all about. Spreading FUD.

For a little light relief, read the union's consultation 5 update (http://alaea.asn.au/images/pdfs/Consultation_5.pdf). Laughed? I almost shat.

Hang tough.

[hi-speed tape]

Let the clowns spend all their time formulating manpower graphs etc, etc, etc
Then when they think they're done & are feeling all smug with themselves, hit them with a return to 8 hour shifts for all engineering staff in all ports ! Bet their sums won't look so good then !

[Clipped]

HS tape

That would allow the cards to fall directly into their lap. Texas Tony has said numerous times that he'd relish a change from some of the current 12 hour rosters.

Lose your current roster (shift penalties, DILs, days off pattern), revert to an 8 hour roster for six months (less penalties, travel to/from work more often etc), then accept an 9.5 or similar roster pattern as it is an improvement on that crappy 8 hour roster. Net gain = zero. TT wins.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Qantas staff taking off | Geelong IndependentGeelong Independent (http://geelong.starcommunity.com.au/indy/2014-04-10/qantas-staff-taking-off/)

Let me Guess who The Labour Hire Firm are

[Bumpfoh]

Been through that **** before Clipped, workers suffer but ultimately it needs vastly more manpower to operate so no win for management.:ugh:

[CoolB1Banana]

So the union are just trying to drag it out with no hope of changing the inevitable. It may keep the old guys happy while they get "just one more year" before they cash in. Meanwhile the younger guys (who are actually the ones likely to be punted) just want to learn their fate and get on with their lives.

Somebody kill me!

[Jethro Gibbs]

So whatever happened to the 5000 redundancies all seems to have gone quite the 1 month extension must be well past by now .

[Jethro Gibbs]

They are doing a good job keeping it out of the media .:ugh:

[Australopithecus]

I was informed by my cabin crew on a recent flight that there are currently VR EOI solicitations in long haul flight attendant ranks. The expectation is that there will be 400-500 slots available. Coupled with the administration cuts, that will total what? 1,800? ADL catering is closing: there is another hundred or two. So where is the other 3,000?

I submit that the 5,000 number always was a "shock 'n' awe" number crafted to elicit a response from government that subsequently failed. If I was going to extract a number from my well-travelled backside I would at least conjure up the illusion of accuracy by making it something like 4,762. The last significant digit implies a degree of accuracy, and hence competency, that round numbers do not. A lesson apparently untaught at Trinity College. That'll be $80,001 for the maths lesson.

[Pappa Smurf]

AJ did say 5000 over 3 years ,so he must be expecting the business to drop off further with his mismanagement.

[CoolB1Banana]

Looks like 15May is when it will all happen.

I hope they don't seriously consider all that reduced hours/extra annual leave crap. All that does is suit the old blokes that probably should just put their hand up anyway. Give me a full time job or at least open the EOI back up again if we are going down that path.

Let's just get it over and done with.

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

I'm quite happy to take on reduced hours, especially it it is going to save jobs, any form of mitigating job losses is certainly not crap.

Let's see how the numbers stacked up in Steve's survey regarding that question.

Besides, I'm not retiring before 70 years of age. You may be over 80 if we keep going down Abbott and Hockey's track.

[CoolB1Banana]

As long as you are all aware, the only reason the company will agree to reduced hours and/or increased leave is because when they make you redundant anyway that also means a reduced package! Not to mention how it affects the defined benefit portion of your super. It would be the biggest own goal in QF IR history.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

What a load of FUD. Any Agreement we entered into would ensure that service was all calculated at a pro-rata rate.

[CoolB1Banana]

Put the numbers into your FAS/FYS calculation for the defined benefit portion of your super and see how you fair. Anyone who retires in the next few years will have worked for nothing.

I would be very careful commenting on the financial ramifications to members of such a policy if my wages were being paid by member contributions. Especially if those comments could be considered financial advice.

The intent may be admirable but working part time is not the answer.

[Talkwrench]

Put the numbers into your FAS/FYS calculation for the defined benefit portion of your super and see how you fair. Anyone who retires in the next few years will have worked for nothing.

Thanks for the heads up. I'm sure each individual will consult their respective financial adviser to establish the impact of any decision to go part time or take a package.


I would be very careful commenting on the financial ramifications to members of such a policy if my wages were being paid by member contributions. Especially if those comments could be considered financial advice.

I'm sure I will listen to Steve before I listen to an anonymous pprune poster clearly trying to influence other members to suit his/her own ends.


The intent may be admirable but working part time is not the answer.

Maybe you could add the following disclaimer to your last quote: "for me at this time in my working career"

I'm sure there would be a section of the membership (yes, most likely older, but not yet able to retire) that would consider a part time role to be a far better option than taking a package and then trying to find employment again.

Obviation and mitigation of redundancies is the best outcome. That is why it's in the WD.

[the_company_spy]

Talkwrench, I don't think reduced working hours is intended to be an opt in "part time role"

All lames would be working reduced hours.

Steve, we hear much about the transition to retirement idea but has anyone actually put their hand up yet and said I want to do this? And if so what has been the companies response?

[Millet Fanger]

b1 banana, you must not be too much of a spring chicken with the amount of self interest you are showing in your defined benefit super scheme. How long ago did Q stop putting people into that type of a scheme?


From what I have seen, the ALAEA is run as a democracy. What was it, 70 something percent voted to accept a 36 hour week over seeing some of their colleagues booted out the gate! You are obviously swimming against the tide!Why don't you grab the money (your request would be accepted), take your B1 licence, and explore other opportunities outside of Qantas?

[CoolB1Banana]

Cute disclaimer Talkwrench but the decision to work reduced hours is not mine nor yours individually. As it stands, if some of the executive's plans come to fruition, we'll all be working part time. Gotta love a survey monkey:ugh:

I appreciate the concept of the collective and what's best for most is best for all etc. but you are right when you suggest reducing work hours should be by individual choice not majority vote.

As for financial advice, I wouldn't be taking it from me or Fed Sec. Get professional advice like I did and get the facts and how they effect your individual circumstance.

[griffin one]

MF
Actually no one has voted on any reduced hours or leave burn,it has been percentages from an online survey.
If and When SP and the ALAEA get the go ahead for a reduced hours roster then i am sure the membership will get to vote.

[CoolB1Banana]

FYI Millet Fanger, super divisions 1, 2, 3 & 3a all have a defined benefit portion so that covers anyone that started before the late nineties unless the have since moved to a later division.

Thanks for the suggestion re taking the money and leaving but I'll be here as long as there's a FULL TIME job for me, swimming in any direction I like.

I hope your right about the formal vote Griffin. I don't trust a survey monkey any more than I trust the QF engagement ratings they often spit out.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Hey company spy. The online survey asked a question to members, whether they would consider moving to a part time arrangement where they only worked half their original hours. 298 out of 802 said they were interested. This is a large number but of course interest is not agreement. If it was a nice little arrangement I suspect 30-40 may actually do it.


The numbers have been shared with the company and because of the initial interest, we are exploring it further. Banana is correct about something, the various super schemes make the implications extremely complicated.


As for reduced hours, the survey is not agreement from a majority that we can agree to something for you. Realistically the base hours could only be reduced during the next EA discussions. The survey results are just a guide for us as we try and work out solutions. If 70% supported something in a survey, I would be confident it would stand a formal vote, far less so for the 55% the 34 hour week achieved.

[Arnold E]

far less so for the 55% the 34 hour week achieved.

If you guys are considering reduced hours, don't forget the rest of the world out here. When a management of a LARGE company manages to convince people to reduce conditions, it will inevitably affect people outside that workforce, and us out here don't earn any where near what you guys do. This is the wedge that Abbot and Co are looking for. Dont compromise conditions that have been hard won in the past, mostly by guys like me.:=

[Jethro Gibbs]

Did reduced hours talk help Avalon NO.

[Silverado]

Put the numbers into your FAS/FYS calculation for the defined benefit portion of your super and see how you fair. Anyone who retires in the next few years will have worked for nothing

Final average salary is based on your best 3 consecutive years, in the last 10.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Arnold the hard won conditions over many years for unions have not been greater hours but lesser hours. In the 1880s there was a massive campaign to achieve a standard 8 hour day (40 hour week). I'm not sure when it was but some time last century we fought to make the standard week 38 hours.


In much of the building industry unions have fought and achieved a standard 36 hour week. I've spoken to some of their key delegates involved in the transition and their members are dead set against any increase back to 38. Of course less working hours means less pay and more time away from work. Over time the pay passes the previous level and you are left with a better lifestyle.


If it saves jobs in the process and our members support it, of course we will seriously consider it as an option.

[Arnold E]

last century we fought to make the standard week 38 hours.

That's true, but when that happened our hourly rate went up and we lost no money. In a lot of cases, including where I worked at the time, we kept working 40 hours and accumulated the extra time and had a day off every month hence the RDO. But the whole thing is we didnt work less hours for less money, we worked less hours for the same money.:ok:

[Ngineer]

Hearing the SIT may be picking up a couple of contracts. Will this impact job losses? I hope so.

[chockchucker]

I doubt it Ngineer.

Tony L has stated that any third party work is to be accomplished " within the future QE manpower footprint".

They want their numbers no matter what.

Even though, under their current wish list on CR selection criteria, they basically wipe out all the younger LAMES and leave themselves with a workforce of primarily over 50's. They are determined to go down a destructive path of contraction.


Anybody who thinks current management has along term plan for QE is delusional.

[Silverado]

The extra contract work fits in their "whitespace"

Even though, under their current wish list on CR selection criteria, they basically wipe out all the younger LAMES and leave themselves with a workforce of primarily over 50's. They are determined to go down a destructive path of contraction.

Not so in SAM. Most of the younger LAME's are safe.

[chockchucker]

Well, in Melbourne, if you don't have at least 738 and 330 you've had it.

That pretty much precludes all young guys who have yet to have the training opportunities of their older colleagues.

[Ngineer]

Tony L has stated that any third party work is to be accomplished " within the future QE manpower footprint".



It would be nice if they could share this "footprint" with us, or is it too shocking to share with the staff?

[Silverado]

Well, in Melbourne, if you don't have at least 738 and 330 you've had it.

That pretty much precludes all young guys who have yet to have the training opportunities of their older colleagues.

Tell that to the guy here who only has a 747 classic!

What training opportunities? Half the guys here would love to have just one of those types!

[chockchucker]

The training opportunities I refer to are those afforded to either the select few or those that have been in LMO for a long enough period.

As for wanting either of the 738 or 330, as I say, based on the current selection criteria, you need BOTH those types to even stand a chance of surviving this round of redundancies in Melbourne.

Of course, the next round will be even worse. One can see the ultimate objective for Melbourne LMO is ramp staff doing R&D with a couple of super LAMES and a handful of cat A guys for the defects and overnight servicing. Max 10 people per crew.

A scenario no doubt to be duplicated in other ports. With the shame being that even if managements grand design does fail, it won't be before many careers are destroyed.

[MR WOBBLES]

Can Abbott reduce our redundancy entitlements as they are pushing for in the article below if these pr!cks get there way.

In its “10-point plan” the AIG calls for the prohibition of industry-wide pattern agreements for workers, the winding back of the scheme which guarantees workers their redundancy entitlements, the right of employers to terminate enterprise agreements after they expire (leaving workers on award conditions),

Australia: Socialist Alliance May Day statement -- 'More pain for workers, pensioners, poor' | Links International Journal of Socialist Renewal (http://links.org.au/node/3830)

[Jet-A-One]

I've said it here before, anyone waiting for next round to take a package is taking a huge chance. Capped redundancy is not far off!

[CoolB1Banana]

I heard one of the old blokes the other day say that he prob should take a package now but he'd keep working while he still enjoyed it. Fair enough but I couldn't help but wonder how much he'll enjoy running from plane to plane blindly penning defects while all the new gun A licences were doing the turnarounds.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The Govt. have no hope passing any laws that cap redundancy payments so long as the Senate holds its current form.


Not taking a package if you were in two minds now though is risky, if it is a package you are expecting. I think a more likely issue that will face us in a few years will be a massive labour shortage. At Qantas the average age is over 50. They will always need people to fix aircraft and in 10 years, maybe even 2-3, the cupboard will be bare.


They will be screaming for blokes just as they did in Europe, packages will be a thing of the past.

[Arnold E]

At Qantas the average age is over 50. They will always need people to fix aircraft and in 10 years,

You are an optimist, you assume Qantas will still be there in 10 years, good luck with that.:(

[Towbarless]

So when the senate changes soon do you see the palmer/independants backing a change in redundancies laws?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

No I certainly can't see the Coalition getting Palmer (and his 4 man Senate team), Nick X or John M supporting changes to redundancy payouts.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We gave a presentation to the company yesterday. Thought I would post it here for further discussion.


http://i58.tinypic.com/2qu1wd1.png

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

http://i60.tinypic.com/bdmjr6.png


http://i61.tinypic.com/k3t84k.png


http://i59.tinypic.com/33tgggx.png

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

http://i60.tinypic.com/x1mxpt.png


http://i59.tinypic.com/33ooeno.png


http://i62.tinypic.com/2uicdjp.png

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

http://i57.tinypic.com/117bpro.png


http://i58.tinypic.com/30mpmjk.png


http://i60.tinypic.com/zkfw2b.png

[MR WOBBLES]

IF this came in how many jobs would it save,
will it be for 12 months or on going ,
what happens if i get called in on o/t on a rostered annual leave day.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I didn't think you could do overtime on an annual leave day. If there was a regular need to find extra staff because there was too much work, they could just cancel the program. If they sack the blokes and there is nobody to call back, they have no alternatives.


Variants of this program would run constantly. The ones in this presentation generally consume about 4 weeks of annual leave to run and would, subject to who is transferring to Perth or Bne, mean that nobody would get CR.


By burning an extra 4 weeks each year, most sections could run at those staffing levels for about 10 years before all leave was consumed. By then half the blokes would have retired anyway so as each person retires, the need to burn leave reduces. Remember the average age now is about 53.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Yeah about 5 minutes.


Company will just make up and excuse to avoid legal obligations. They are expert liars.

[emergency000]

How do the above suggestions help QF employees who've been in the company, say, less than 10 years? I'm not sure they'd take too kindly to being told when to take 4 of their 5 weeks of annual leave each year and, with less time in the company than the 20/30/40 year men, they may not have the leave balance to burn 9 weeks of A/L per year.

How do the above suggestions affect AMEs in line maintenance?

[mymatesadutchman]

The answer is simple.Apply for the redundancy.Steves plan is a save as many YOUNG engineers as possible.Engineers with 20/30/40 years will probably not be tapped on the shoulder.

[Millet Fanger]

The last version I saw of the company's plan had a 20% weighting for years of service. Under that version you mightn't need to worry about taking annual leave at all. (Though one would hope not).

"How do the above suggestions affect AMEs in line maintenance?"

Although many AMEs would like to represented by the ALAEA, they are unable. Unfortunately, with some of the deals the AME unions are cutting with Qantas (Cat A licences, matrix criteria), there seems to be a flurry of activity leading up to June 30. The options put forward by the Fed Sec might not have any affect on many AMEs.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Worried about the company allocating 4 of your 5 weeks annual leave (which they can do anyway)? The other option is that they could allocate 52 weeks each year for you and if you think you are safe, consider the other poor bastard who will be put out of work and stop being so bloody selfish.


I'm not sure how many AMEs still need to go but I would think they could apply similar principles to their rosters. The additional work that we are finding that the company have conveniently forgotten to put in their graphs equally applies to AMEs and LAMEs.

[LAME2]

stop being so bloody selfish

:ok::ok::ok::ok:

[stuntcock]

I heard from a colleague of mine that , if your a Lame , say at the SIT and your'e told that you are going to Sam you cannot put your hand up for redundancy because your job has been transferred to Sam ?


A lot of guys are in a dilemma not sure what to do ? I guess a descision has to be made before 15 May to take redundancy or not .


Looks like things are starting to happen with maintenance & towing being transferred to Sam in the next 2 weeks .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

If you were told you are moving and would rather a package, send an email to your manager and copy the ALAEA in so we know about it. The company can't forcibly make people leave if others are prepared to go no matter how late the application is in. The only exception would be if your licences were completely mismatched with the person who's job you were saving. eg B1 and B2.


The company have a right to change your section though. I was moved against my wishes from SIT in 92 to heavy.

[nut turner]

Why is it so bad going back to SAM? It is with an attitude like that, that makes the guys in SAM say F**K YOU!
Without wishing to reopen old wounds, if we had all stayed together we may not have this separatist attitude.
Unfortunately a group of core base guys were just as much to blame as the SIT guys.
What goes around comes around.

[Silverado]

At the end of the day it's personal preference and perhaps familiarity. For many it may be just not wanting to do nightshift, for the others it may well be the type of work.

You can't blame someone for wanting to stick with what they know.

[emergency000]

Worried about the company allocating 4 of your 5 weeks annual leave (which they can do anyway)? The other option is that they could allocate 52 weeks each year for you and if you think you are safe, consider the other poor bastard who will be put out of work and stop being so bloody selfish.

Oh don't worry, I don't work for Qantas any more, so my job is quite safe. I was asking out of interest as the information seemed to be running on the assumption that everyone in QF has plenty of leave to burn.

Overall, I think you've hit the nail on the head, Steve, with the workload and such at Qantas. I hope you can save a good number of jobs and hopefully the other unions come to the party to help save what are effectively the ALAEA's future membership.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Thnx for supporting the guys Emergency. Leave balances are still large in all departments with average balances over 6 months. Indicates a long term problem with people actually getting time off work due to staff shortages. Sure many elect to build their leave but this just supplies additional labour to the company as an alternative to employing the correct number of staff in the first place.

[CoolB1Banana]

Anyway, back to reality-

So in a few days, on the 15th, each section is going to identify a "target group" that are going to meet with HR and their manager to discuss options next week. Are there still jobs in PER? I'm told there's still blokes in BNE Line awaiting a package. Anyone have numbers? Word is, once you've been told you're at risk you will be taken off shift and report to the transition centre until your fate is known.

It's going to get complicated for them when it comes to the SIT blokes who would rather take a package than transfer. It won't just be a matter of taking a bloke off the redundancy list and sending him to SAM in his place. They are after particular licences to go to SAM (738 and 380 I'm told) so there will be flow on effects to others.

They are adamant they want this done by the end of the financial year. The pressure is coming from the top of the airline this time. It's much more than the hate campaign we're all accustomed to from within engineering senior management. Any grievances will be dealt with after the fact and I don't hold high hopes.

All the best to others at risk of the sack or unwanted transfer. The next six weeks is going to be a wild ride for some.

[Ngineer]

So in a few days, on the 15th, each section is going to identify a "target group" that are going to meet with HR and their manager to discuss options next week.

Says who?????????????????

[CoolB1Banana]

Texas Tony via my friendly ops manager.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Can you please PM me the Ops Manager name?

[the_company_spy]

Nassenstien has called all his managers in for a big meeting today, even those away at out stations, another announcement imminent?

[The Bungeyed Bandit]

So CoolB1Banana, you reckon those in SAM who are in the target group should be notified today as to their demise. I wonder if Texas Tony himself is going to front the leadership feedback meeting or his he going to leave it to his minions.

[CoolB1Banana]

I actually said that it would be next week that I expected people to be notified Bungeye. Best of luck if you are a anxious Legacy LAME like me. They are going to lose some great people unfortunately.

There certainly was a lot of managers milling around yesterday morning. It is coming to the crunch!

[Millet Fanger]

Next week has almost come and gone CoolB. Though I am thankful that your prediction has not eventuated, yet!

Looks like your your "friendly ops manager" (oxymoron) is about as reliable as the guy who runs the joint.

No understanding, No direction, No idea!

[King William III]

Judging by the tone of the latest ALAEA notice, I'm guessing a few of us may be getting a ticket to the departure lounge in the next few days. :ugh:

[stuntcock]

Yes KW III , it looks pretty ominous , ops managers at the SIT disappearing for most of the day , I guess at meetings with their superiors . You can just about sense that something bad is about to happen . The nervous tension in the smoko room is becoming apparent .

[MR WOBBLES]

Why don't you all stop looking for trouble, the only tone I get is the ALAEA wants you ALL to lodge your grievance early,So they know what issues will arise. As for all the scare mongering don't you think the guys have had enough, :mad: off and upset someone who does not work on critical systems, these people have enough on there plate :ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Sorry guys I had Gary in the office write and issue the notice today, please disregard the "end is nigh" tone of the notice. We met with our friends today and we are systematically working through the issues we have raised in the table I sent you all last week. The next meeting is scheduled for next Thu.

At this stage we have a stack of outstanding questions that Qantas want answered by the CFO. He was to meet us this week but had to withdraw from the meeting. We think it will be re-scheduled for two weeks time.

As for Ops managers running around all flustered and excited, what else would you expect. Some of them are just seeing an aircraft up close for the first ever time.

So if you have any personal concerns with the proposed matrix that they may or may not use, please let us know early so individual grievances can be prepared with ample time. It may be that you have been overlooked for training, never had an opportunity to get a Cat 4 drivers licence or are too fat to have tank entry. Anything at all that you feel puts you at a disadvantage unfairly.

[Nassensteins Monster]

So if you have any personal concerns with the proposed matrix that they may or may not use,

I'd love to, if only they'd pull their finger out and produce something actually worthy of consideration. I mean seriously, how f**king long do they need to produce a worthwhile document that reflects the needs of their business. The longer it takes the more it says these people have no idea about the business they run... Oh wait, I'm stating the obvious. :rolleyes:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Interesting discussion at meeting yesterday with a Qantas bean counter.


Bean counter - "first I need to explain to you what a balance sheet is".


ALAEA - "No I think we need to explain to you what it is, in the last two years the ALAEA has made more profit than Qantas".

[CoolB1Banana]

In his latest email, Texas Tony has said the Ops Managers will be giving the "cut-off" points for the criteria. Has anyone seen the number for each section and trades?

[mymatesadutchman]

Its sad to see employees treated in such a poor fashion.Qantas is about to make the worst decisions ever by culling to the extent they plan.

[CoolB1Banana]

I heard today it's 800 points for SAM B1 and 500 for CE. If you've got less points than that, consider yourself notified. You would hope they don't expect the guys that now know they are on death row to continue working in a safety sensitive workplace. Aren't managers supposed to sit Human Factors training too? They just took on a MASSIVE liability if so!

[Millet Fanger]

Hot Off The Press (from my "friendly ops manager")

QE have just worked out that utilizing different matrix for each section, differentiating between mechanical and avionic, incorporating 1/2 points for some things and hundreds of points for other things, still doesn't save all of their favourites. Back to the drawing board!


QE are in the process of preparing a new criteria matrix for each individual crew. They think this criteria will give them the "flexibility" they want!

[Jet-A-One]

A new criteria for each crew?

Either a Millet Fanger has his hand on it or they have completely lost the plot!

This will play out in court for months if that is true.

[Joe A350]

If it’s true that Q Management want all this wrapped up by the 30th of June, then I see the chances of “Millet’s” post very slim to none chance of happening. If Management want to save some of the ‘boyz’ then unfortunately they will need to impose collateral damage to their ‘favourites’.
Fed Sec, can we get clarity on the criteria points, it seems the points keep changing to ‘save’ those who save the company money and have no Q type on their licence.
I find it hard to digest that anyone with <800 will be culled, that equates to more bodies than what has been quoted for redundancy, does this mean another round is eminent once the fleet retirement is accomplished?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I don't know why they keep changing it and we are absolutely astounded that they have released cutoff numbers for each section. What safe airline would do that?

[Slim Dog]

Is the union still pursuing a reduced hours roster to save employees or any other potential measures?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We are looking at all options. The main one being our demand for them to re-calculate how many people they need because they have left a whole stack of stuff we do out of the charts.


Leave burn also seen as the simplest option if numbers are still too high.

[Kiwiconehead]

because they have left a whole stack of stuff we do out of the charts.

Steve - any chance they didn't include it because they intend that to become stuff you don't do? And are just trying to slip it by?

I'd call it a cunning plan but none of the Qantas management are smart enough to have cunning plans. :confused:

[King William III]

Leave burn also seen as the simplest option if numbers are still too high.

As long as they police it properly this time. I'm aware of a guy who was saved by it last time but decided to employ every tactic he could to avoid actually using any himself....suffice it to say there was very little 'forced' on him! :mad:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We've thrown some options at them to automatically build in days everyone in some sections take off as leave as part of their roster. Equally applied to all.


Yes Kiwiconehead. I have no doubt they are slipping in changes here that they don't want to consult over. I'd like you blokes all to be conscious of this though and not assist them by cutting corners on the job. It does happen every day now and anyone concerned about job security may not need to look further than themselves.

[Romulus]

Jet Base Auction (http://www.graysonline.com/sale/5010118/engineering-and-toolmaking/qantas-major-event-engineering-workshop-closure?page=1)

[sani-com]

I haven't wandered through EOC for 10 years, maybe more. What a sad sight, the workshop map brings a tear to the eye.:(

[Joe A350]

Is this the silence (white space) before the storm???

Nothing has come out over the past few weeks, any updates?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

We are meeting with the company Tues arvo guys.

[emergency000]

Even though I'm starting my new job with Qantas' direct competitor on Tuesday, I'll be thinking of all the guys who helped me through my apprenticeship, wishing them all the best for the future, whether with QF or not.

[Clipped]

Thanks and good luck to you e0.

[sky rocket]

emergency000 does that mean you are moving into a position in QF management?

[emergency000]

sky rocket :D :D :D :D

The "other" direct competitor ;)

[PIOT Bord]

Is Qantas's latest manoeuvring the equivalent to them lining up their ducks in a row?


- Extra O/T being put on to clear up coming maintenance.
- Expressions of interest for VR closes in a couple of days.
- Next meeting with ALAEA being held in a couple of days.
- A bit over 12 weeks until the 20th September.
- Managers being repositioned for approx. next 12 weeks.


Beware the TAPPER!!!!
Don't trust "Your friendly ops manager"!

[King William III]

Knowing these clowns....if they line their ducks in a row they're likely to trip over them....

[Jet-A-One]

It will all happen this week.

[savage1qan]

Is this a rumour, or good oil????
:ugh:

[griffin one]

Rumour,This Friday coming townsville refueller saw it in his water sample

[CoolB1Banana]

If the company and the association met on Tuesday, when will we get feedback from either? :ugh:

The EOI is closed. How long can it take to draw a line through the list and start informing people where they stand?

I don't know anyone that doesn't want this over and done with.

[Bolty McBolt]

" I don't know anyone who doesn't want this over "
There are 2 guys who may beg to differ with you
Punches thrown in the car park. Rumour has it

[Dunnocks]

Good luck, everyone

[stuntcock]

Could it be Black Friday QF Management start impacting engineering employees ? Also it's the start of the world cup. A lot of peoples focus will be on that . I've seen them do nasty things in the past where peoples focus is elsewhere.

[JETTRONIC]

What's the latest Steve????

We are hearing that u guys walked out at the last meeting and that the axe will be falling in two weeks. The mood at work at the moment is toxic at the best and fear that it won't be long before it really starts to affect people.

Ps. Keep up the good work.

[CoolB1Banana]

The silence is deafening...

[Jet-A-One]

The coms from the union have been a bit lacking through this process. Texas Tony's emails have been more informative than the few union notices I've seen. I've heard from my ops manager more than anyone on the executive.

I've got no doubt the guys at Bexley are doing all they can in the background but there's been far too much reliance on rumour and speculation to get info over the last few months.

Good luck to all at risk. I can only guess we'll know our fate soon.

[MR WOBBLES]

What communications do you want, they are in discussions the only comms would be lip service,do you really want that. An hour to go till COB Friday the 13 still nothing. Maybe that's because there is a process to be followed and until that has run its course or we end up in FWA there is no news.
The only way this will end is if you take a package, so enjoy the job you currently have if you don't like it, I know a heap of guys that will happily stay and do it for you.:O

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Been busy in Lawyers all week after some antics by Tony. In summary.


Qantas released a couple of Reps to help go through some source data they are using to build the graphs that determine how many staff they will need in future (to calculate the number of redundancies). This was part of our formal consultation.


We used some content of the smaller meeting to write to Qantas in letters most of you have seen showing that they have underestimated the amount of future work. Essentially they have been providing us garbage in their consultation packs.


Because we caught them out, rather than add more staff to correct the error, they wrote to one of your Reps in a threatening manner complaining that he had breached Qantas policy by talking to the ALAEA about the errors and omissions he had found.


We cannot consult with managers who threaten our Reps when they catch them out fiddling the books. The matter will head to the Federal Court unless arrangements are made to ensure consultation continues without fear of retribution for those involved.


Texan Tony should be standing himself down after his antics this week, just as any ALAEA member would be if they even look sideways at a management puppet.

[Millet Fanger]

Thanks for the update, Fed Sec. I was sure that there must have been some more to story than what TL posted.


I was going to ask "my friendly ops manager" but he was in a rush. Apparently Qantas is giving him some training - a pushback tug driving course!

[JETTRONIC]

Thanks for the info Steve and fighting the good fight. For them to pull that stunt it only shows their true colours.

[Jet-A-One]

QF Engineering managers have been given ramp equipment training as long as I've been around. Nothing new there.

[Arnold E]

QF Engineering managers have been given ramp equipment training as long as I've been around. Nothing new there.

Please tell me that no LAME would work alongside these people in a crisis, Please

[AEROMEDIC]

Sounds like a crisis is just around the corner and ops managers are being groomed to multi task when it comes.

[griffin one]

exactly how many ops managers were previously LAMES?
Answer=one
They can be trained as anyone else to supply scab labour.
when you cross the floor youve sold your soul forever whether your a top bloke or not.

[empire4]

Scab labour? Plenty of QF engineers have scabbed in Malaysia. No one says a word to them. All the BS I've seen recently with idiot engineers trying to be militant protectionists are just ensuring your own graves are dug really deep. I know there are a lot of good blokes out there, but as always the minority stand out the most.

[fruitloop]

I thought under the EASA system if you havn't signed a CRS in the last 6 months then your Licence is classed as "Expired"...

[Arnold E]

All the BS I've seen recently with idiot engineers trying to be militant protectionists are just ensuring your own graves are dug really deep.

All the advantages you now receive, like sick pay, leave loadings etc, were fought for by people like me, if you don't want any of that then ring up your HR department tomorrow and insist that all these things be removed from your pay alone, the rest of us will keep them thanks. Bet ya dont make that phone call will ya??

[JETTRONIC]

Another consultation pack presented to the crew the other night at 2am but this time we returned serve.....never seen an ops manager cry before. Almost felt sorry for him. Not! We promptly returned to work like good minions and left the aircraft in the hanger. :ok:

[engine overspeed]

I thought under the EASA system if you have not signed a CRS in the last
6 months, then your licence is classed as " Expired".

There are individuals at SIT that have not signed a CRS not only in the
last 6 months but in the last 6 years or never.

What you have said should be worth looking into, but that does not stop
individuals from working regular amounts of overtime which is creating a
false indication of numbers not required ultimately costing jobs.

Wouldn't it be logical to refrain from overtime until all this has stabilized, and
then work the overtime, but wait they couldn't do that, as more people
would keep their jobs and the overtime might not exist, the greedy individuals
should just Bug...off, as Michael Douglas said..Greed is Good.

[CoolB1Banana]

There is no requirement to sign a CRS to keep your CASA licence. Where do you people get this sh1t?

[fruitloop]

CoolB1Banana.
Correct regards CRS. How-ever a light bit of reading for you
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Step 3 (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100692)
"Work associated with but not involving conduct/carrying out of maintenance is unacceptable for licence currency purposes eg teaching, maintenance control and quality management are "Not acceptable" unless they involve the physical performance of maintenance."

[CoolB1Banana]

"or obtain a report from a Part 147 maintenance training organisation (MTO)"

There's an MTO in Brisbane that will sign you off in a day and charge $625.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Hey guys. I am just chasing something up. Last Fri at our consultation meeting, Tony Lowrey told us something that we think may fall into the horse crap category. Hoping someone in the know, Maintenance Watch maybe could call me to confirm.


The company has assigned 3.5 hours to each 738 check 2 and are using that in the calculations to determine how many people will be sacked. We checked on Mxi the night before the meeting and the average check 2 had 9.2 hours of assigned work and an unknown allocation for defects etc.....


Now the Texan said that it was greater than normal atm because they are bringing forward work whilst they have additional staff. Have MW being doing this purposely, have they been instructed too and is it really the case?

[WrenchMonkey]

Gents FYI those found to be below the " line in the sand". There has been relief found from management that they are incompetent and unable to finalise an end date so... All movements delayed at least until end of July...

[fruitloop]

CoolB1Banana.Check your PM's

[griffin one]

Rumour from The street via the town hall within the crystal palace.
August will see a $1.3 billion loss posted around $900 million due loss $400 million due redundancies.
Texas under pressure from Elain to wrap up redundancies by end July.
Markets apparently been issued the info time to hedge shares at a low buy back.

[stuntcock]

griffin one , you refer to Texas under pressure from Elain to wrap up redundancies by the end of july , I guess that's CN and his ELT

[Nassensteins Monster]

griffin one , you refer to Texas under pressure from Elain to wrap up redundancies by the end of july , I guess that's CN and his ELT

Redundancy window is open till 20 Sep.

Time taken for consideration of applications submitted, plus obviations, mitigations and transfers: another couple of weeks, say first week Oct.

Add 12 weeks notice: LAMEs start "exiting the business" early Dec... In inimitable Qantas style - Merry Fcuking Christmas to you and your family.

Notice 049/2014 - All Qantas Members - Redundancy Consultation Update: "We have now sought guidance from Senior Council with a view to prosecuting Qantas in the Federal Court for failing to discharge their consultation obligations. Qantas were found guilty of a similar offence last year and fined heavily for their infringement. This time should they proceed we will be pressing to prevent redundancies whilst proper consultation takes place." Happy Fcuking New Year to all those who just want this done and dusted, and "another day another dollar" for those who don't.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Nassy's Monster, Those who **want** to go, can. Take a VR.
For those who want to stay, I believe the ALAEA is fighting to save their jobs.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Today's notice is an important one.




Notice 050 - 2014 - All Qantas Members - Important Redundancy Update
Important Instructions for Members Near Cutoff Line The ALAEA has advised Qantas that we would consider them to be in breach of your Workplace Determination should they implement retrenchments whilst consultation is ongoing. Unfortunately Qantas may decide to do as they please anyway and breach the Workplace Determination under the concept of – who cares, let the ALAEA take us to court and we will find out who wins in twelve months time.

We need to be as prepared as possible should they unfairly march people off the base so we can apply for court orders on the same day. That being the case:


Any member who thinks they may be close to or below the danger line should call our office immediately where your details will be taken in preparation for a legal challenge.



The lines may be busy so keep trying until you get through.

Recording of Work
One thing that has become apparent during consultation is that Qantas have been using the Mxi system to record hours LAMEs spend working on aircraft and using the figures extracted from the system to justify job losses. We know the Mxi system does not record everything you do and is itself flawed. We are pressing Qantas to take into account other records such as Cabin Condition and Tech Logs plus time spent on computer based-training.

As much as Qantas are not taking notice of our claims that they are underestimating the amount of work we do, it is still vital both now and into the future that every single thing you do for the company is recorded somewhere. We have been taking ALAEA records and giving presentations to the company on things we do and they are simply responding that there is no record of the work.

If you are called at short notice to unblock a drain, reset a magic carpet, wing walk a plane or anything else please record it. Proper records may help us now and certainly will next time they attempt to wield the axe.

Steve Purvinas
Federal Secretary