When is the next cull at QF Engineering?

[Bootstrap1]

Now that the non-event of the $6M profit has been announced as well as the flight re-shuffle, when is the next round of blood letting to begin?

Rumours are already rife that 200 will go in November, no doubt to coincide with the new schedule.

Uncle Chandra and his band of merry men are willing to take as much work from Australia as Tony and Chris will let him.

744 work will shift from SYD to BNE and 330s will be done wherever and whenever they land.

CAT A licencing is about to pick up and overtake all other training, tug drivers are also willing to hop on and fix an aircraft, because as QF sees them, most of them already have 2 years or more in the industry.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Surely Avalon must be close to the end game now .

[Long Bay Mauler]

Maybe the sale of QDS is the beginning of the end for Engineering?

Just one area of many to be broken up for sale to help bring the overall bottom line back to the black.

This possibly accounts for some of the numbers of engineers to leave the business.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

It will happen fairly quickly if people keep cutting corners to make things work. It sends a very clear message - we don't need as many of you.

[nut turner]

It seems no matter what we do to reduce ground time it's never enough. A lean engine change was carried out under the guidance of Chandra's minister for everything, in about 10 hours. Once the bugs are ironed out it will probably be shipped off to LA like the 380 A Checks.
I see more pain to come!:mad:

[Jethro Gibbs]

The Sick Leave sh&* fight has begun at Avalon the end is near .

[Ngineer]

It will happen fairly quickly if people keep cutting corners to make things work.

Exactly. The amount of people signing out of cat these days is sickening.

[Cactusjack]

Oh dear, we can't have people chucking sickies. How rude. Totally disloyal to the company. Naturally selfish, disloyal, uncaring behaviour is something the company won't tolerate. Can you imagine senior management acting in their own self interests? Never.

[Long Bay Mauler]

Cat A licenced guys notified today of being successful.

Training starts in October.

[parabellum]

Southern Cross radio news talking about the "imminent closure of Avalon with considerable job losses" :(

[ACT Crusader]

Read more: Qantas to review role of 300 engineers at Avalon (http://www.theage.com.au/business/qantas-to-review-role-of-300-engineers-at-avalon-20130917-2tw9u.html#ixzz2f7QuMPmc)



Victoria's dwindling aircraft engineering industry is set to shrink further, with Qantas announcing it will "review" the work done by 300 remaining engineers, maintenance staff and contractors at Avalon.

The review will likely lead to most of Avalon's engineers being made redundant.

It follows an earlier round of job losses at Avalon last year.
And it also comes after the airline's chief executive said last year that all of its heavy maintenance would be done in one facility, likely Brisbane, which is receiving a $30 million upgrade this year.

The airline on Tuesday morning issued a statement from its domestic chief executive officer, Lyell Strambi, to say the Avalon maintenance facility has no scheduled work from next March, for a period of five months.
"In fact, there will be no scheduled maintenance for the equivalent of five months each year for the next four years, starting in March 2014," Mr Strambi said.

The company will now review the future of heavy maintenance at Avalon – a process all but certain to lead to sackings and work reductions. The review would be completed by the end of next month, Mr Strambi said.
State Labor opposition leader Daniel Andrews said that Premier Denis Napthine had not done enough to keep Qantas heavy maintenance work in Victoria. "In fact despite massive job losses Denis Napthine refuses to detail a comprehensive jobs plan," Mr Andrews said.

Dr Napthine's office referred queries on the jobs review by Qantas to aviation minister Gordon Rich-Phillips.

A spokesman for Mr Rich-Phillips said that the announcement was a reminder of how important the securing last month of the Qantas group’s 787 base for Victoria had been, because the airline’s 747s were being phased out.

The premier last month declined to say how much public money would be handed to Qantas to help it expand that 787 training centre.
On the possible job losses at Avalon the government would, Mr Rich-Phillips’ spokesman said, ‘‘work with Qantas through the review as it looks at options’’.

The Australian Workers' Union issued a statement on Tuesday morning saying it was alarmed that the Qantas review of heavy maintenance operations at Avalon was "code for closure and another move towards offshoring".

The union's state secretary, Ben Davis, said the future of Avalon looked bleak for the 300 maintenance engineers there.
"We know from experience that when Qantas does a review, jobs go," he said.
Qantas last year shut its heavy maintenance base at Melbourne Airport in Tullamarine.
The lay-offs at Avalon, which Qantas has long flagged, are the result of new generation aircraft requiring significantly less servicing than older planes.
But unions have also argued that the airline is seeking to drive down maintenance wages by sending what work it can overseas or to outsourced repair firms.
Qantas conducts heavy maintenance on its fleet of Boeing 747 aircraft in Avalon, employing 59 Qantas employees and approximately 253 contractors.

A decade ago, Qantas had 36 Boeing 747 aircraft in its fleet; today there are 15. In three years, this will reduce further to just 10.
Qantas and Jetstar Group recently announced the creation of up to 100 new jobs with the establishment of maintenance and training facilities in Melbourne for Jetstar as the airline prepares to take delivery of Boeing 787 aircraft.

Steve Purvinas, the federal secretary of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association, said that Qantas had a reduced number of 747 aircraft in their fleet. "[They] won't provide 12 months worth of work at Avalon," he said. Mr Purvinas said he trusted Qantas to "conduct a genuine review. And it will be our job as a union to offer flexible work practices that will make it cost effective for the airline to find more work to fill in the white space at Avalon."

[Jethro Gibbs]

ALAEA SP trusted Qantas since when .:mad:

[Pterois Volitans]

Long Bay Mauler - Nothing officially been announced about the "A" cert candidates yet?? It was meant to happen on Friday! :ugh:

[pull-up-terrain]

We really need to jump on the Bob Katter band wagon and get this bill in so that aircraft operating in domestic routes must have 80% of the maintenance done in Australia. Hopefully it will secure more 787 and a330 work in Australia for us LAME's and AME's.

[pull-up-terrain]

News - Katter introduces laws to ensure Qantas still calls Australia home - Bob Katter (http://www.bobkatter.com.au/module/latestNews/view/174/katter-introduces-laws-to-ensure-qantas-still-calls-australia-home/media-releases)

[Wellwellwell]

Someone answer me this. Why is Katters bill focused on Qantas, with nearly all of its maintenance on shore, when Virgin has 100% of its maintenance off shore? Shouldn't it praise Qantas for being the role model for all airlines in Australia to aspire too?! Virgin, Skywest, Tiger all off shore, majority of Jetstar offshore, but they still have some heavy work in Newcastle, and has just done a deal to build a maintenance base at Tulla.
So under his bill Qantas will be a monopoly on domestic routes?

[empire4]

Well I guess this question just got answered, bye bye Avalon.

[SOPS]

I know it's probably the media, but I see its quoted as the Qanatas and Jetstar Group....how long to go until its just the Jetstar Group?

[TIMA9X]

I see its quoted as the Qanatas and Jetstar Group....how long to go until it's just the Jetstar Group? Yeah, bit by bit and another 300 Geelong families feeling the heat.

WwYEZ-Wv-9U


:(

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Katter's Bill is not about Qantas. It applies to all airlines which means Virgin would have to bring work onshore. The ALP and Coalition did not support it though.

[Sunfish]

I intensly dislike the deliberate, vicious, evil, disgusting and calculated cruelty on the part of Qantas, its Board and its management in relation to "reviewing" Avalon operations and foreshadowing closure as part of the announcement.

This is designed to maximise fear, anguish, stress and depression in the Avalon workforce and their families.

As I have repeatedly explained, when downsizing is necessary, as it sometimes is, a competent manager either does it "quick and dirty" as in a surprise Friday morning announcement not to turn up on Monday, or you do it "slow and clean" with lots of communication and at least a Six month time horizon to allow people to get used to the idea and make alternative plans.

The Qantas approach - a "six week review" is a rotten alternative, being "slow and dirty" and only a bunch of sadistic incompetents would attempt such a thing.

I hope Qantas overseas maintenance program comes back and bites their management and shareholders hard on the backside, hopefully without killing customers and staff.

One more reason never to fly Qantas - the evil airline..

[Bagus]

Off shore maintenance facilities are celebrating as their managers are pulling strings to get all these work offshore,now any other extra work that can be done here will never be done in Australia,Heavy maintenance is dead.I feel sorry for the employees of Avalon and wish them luck.Evil Qantas.

[Jethro Gibbs]

ALAEA busy on Twitt er this morning .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Thnx for the follow.

[Workers Perspective]

Qantas seeks boardroom pay rises | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/news/2013/9/18/aviation/qantas-seeks-boardroom-pay-rises)



Qantas seeks boardroom pay rises
2 hours ago
IndustriesAviation
By a staff reporter

Qantas Airways Ltd will seek shareholder approval to increase the fee pool for its board of directors, despite the airline clashing with unions this week over reports that up to 300 jobs may be on the line at its Avalon maintenance facility.

The airline is seeking to increase the fee pool for its non-executive directors by $250,000 per year, bringing the total fee pool amount to $2.75 million.

The proposal will be put to shareholders at the airline's forthcoming annual general meeting on October 18.

Qantas shareholders approved the current fee pool limit of $2.5 million nine years ago at the 2004 AGM.

"Given the annual aggregate fees paid during the last two years is approaching the fee pool limit, the Qantas board wishes to increase the fee pool," the airline said in a notice outlining the details of the forthcoming AGM.

"Qantas’ current board and committee fees and fee pool have been benchmarked against comparable listed companies," it said.

The increase would allow Qantas to attract and retain appropriate talent for the workload and responsibilities required of an airline board role, the company said.

Qantas recently put a freeze on the base pay of chief executive Alan Joyce, chairman Leigh Clifford and other management positions.

However the board will also seek approval for Mr Joyce to participate in its long-term incentive program, with a performance reward based on 80 per cent of his fixed remuneration of $2.125 million, redeemable as Qantas shares after three years.

The incentive program was based on a peer comparison with other ASX listed companies, the airline said.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The increase would allow Qantas to attract and retain appropriate talent for the workload and responsibilities required of an airline board role, the company said.


Appropriate talent would be a Pilot, Engineer or Flight Attendant. You wouldn't need to increase the fees to secure their services.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Avalon workers still believe they have a future at Avalon Its Time to wake up people the game is over .:ugh:

[Bagus]

If the union is serious of keeping jobs in Australia itis time to wake up,flexibility and contract work is the only way Aviation jobs can remain here.some job is better than no job.

[737er]

It's surrender monkeys like the author of the previous post that have got us here and will keep us here if we aren't better.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Contract work with the likes of Aviation Labor Group and others that have cut everything to the bone .

Well that's not the answer :ugh:

[genxfrog]

Bagus....workers at JHAS have given all the flexibility and concessions you can think off and even that doesn't appear to have saved them. A race to the bottom doesn't appease corporate greed.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Look at the Avalon Forstaff workers they have never taken any action against Qantas the majority have busted there arse for the place with some pretty average working conditions and woeful Qantas planning to Deal with yet they still got the job done now there all getting screwed over because its never fast enough or cheap enough .

[Bootstrap1]

Fedsec is it true that the association is losing or has lost about 250 tech salaried and non-certifying LAMEs from the membership due to Qantas only wanting the ALAEA to represent certifying staff?

I ask as this was mentioned today by a tech school trainer, I don't know if he was talking out of his butt, as he was the only person to know anything about it.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I'm not aware of us losing any Tech Salaried members.

[SOPS]

Qantas should be making the board smaller, there is hardly any airline left to over see.

[Bagus]

these days either accept contract terms or management options always offshore,and management knows all unions are divided, so either united we stand or divided we fall. If Aviation jobs wants to survive in Australia unions got to stand together and fight for workers and not for offshore facilities. Right now these facilities are celebrating.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Really is time that Avalon CEO Justin Giddings was told to stop making statements to the media he does not employ Qantas or Forstaff workers .:ugh::mad:

[Romulus]

The Australian Licenced Aircraft Engineers Association has offered concessions to Qantas Airways, such as members using up annual leave during quiet periods, in order to convince the airline to keep its Avalon heavy maintenance facility open longer.

The airline this week launched a review of the future of the site, near Geelong in Victoria, which employs more than 300 workers and services a declining fleet of Boeing 747s.

After meeting Qantas on Thursday, ALAEA Federal Secretary Steve Purvinas said he now had a "strong sense" the airline had not predetermined it would close the facility after the review.

"We are prepared to assist with concessions" he said.

"The guys get 5 weeks of leave a year - they may take 10 instead" Mr Purvinas said. On average, employees at the site had 18 weeks of annual leave in reserve.

Qantas is due to meet representatives from other unions on Friday.

At least they're in there fighting.

[Jethro Gibbs]

On average, employees at the site had 18 weeks of annual leave in
reserve.



18 Weeks I Find that hard to believe and who gave the ALAEA leave owed details and when did the ALAEA Start trusting Qantas and Forstaff .

[Collando]

"The guys get 5 weeks of leave a year - they may take 10 instead" Mr Purvinas said. On average, employees at the site had 18 weeks of annual leave in reserve.

That is incorrect. On their shift pattern they get 4 weeks a year ! Given that the ALAEA have negotiated their EBA Fed Sec should know that or check his facts before making that statement.

[Bagus]

After meeting Qantas on Thursday, ALAEA Federal Secretary Steve Purvinas said he now had a "strong sense" the airline had not predetermined it would close the facility after the review.

So closing down Avalon is not a option.???????

[Jethro Gibbs]

ALAEA members have just passed resolution to
work with
Qantas to keep Avalon alive. We are keen to deliver efficiencies
.


ALAEA don't think Qantas want to shut the place. It's
just circumstances that have Avalon on wood.





How the Hell can employees be expected to deliver efficiencies when they are working in a Qantas controlled workplace just ask anyone who has tried to improve how things are done oh that's right you cant they were shown the door quick f^&king smart or just gave up and went with the Qantas flow.:ugh::mad:

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Jethro "chicken little" Gibbs. Seems the ALAEA is damned if they do and damned if they don't in your eyes. Please enlighten us as to YOUR solution to the situation?

(P.S. The full stop key is STILL above the ALT key).

[Jethro Gibbs]

Alaea want a A380 hangar at Avalon . Qantas killed any idea of this years ago is this the best the Union can come up with .

[Bagus]

Alaea are the good guys,Qantas the bad guys,The more qantas keep giving the bad news about maintenance jobs going,their customer keep abandoning them,most people think Qantas no more maintaining aircraft.

[listentome]

Bagus, interested to know what you think of Virgin and it's maintenance?

[Bagus]

Virgin is not Australian,it is a mixed veggie company

[Ngineer]

There are some operators in Oz that are already using bag chuckers to service/maintain aircraft (some unsupervised) whilst trying to gain experience for a cat 'A'.

The rot is really setting in under this briliant new system.

[600ft-lb]

like who Ngineer ?

Are we talking transit servicing, fuel, water, toilets, receipt, dispatch ?

Or are you talking about chapter 12 ?

I'd be very suprised if any operator is happy to let a rampy c/o tasks iaw the AMM.

[empire4]

Ngineer, There are people signing as LAME's now who never did an apprenticeship and were employed as an AME at QF long ago. You know why this system has been put in. You have cone heads sitting in a office all day earning +$150K and refusing to do towing etc. It started years ago. Its Simply the company fighting back. Whilst I totally disagree with it, it is how it is. We won't win. Even with a catastrophic hull loss, CASA will be on an ass covering crusade. Nothing will be anyones fault. ATSB will issue changes which will not include removing "A" licenses.

Please tell me how many crashes or loss of life incidents have happened in Europe due to a "A" license holders error or negligence? If you have an FAA A & P then you sign everything. Have they changed it? No. Like I said I do NOT agree with the system but its hard to make a case with nothing to back you up.

As for Avalon, IT WILL CLOSE. get out now before you are out of a job. If you don't won't to move, then bad luck. get out of the industry. Lifes a :mad:

[Kiwiconehead]

You have cone heads sitting in a office all day earning +$150K and refusing to do towing etc.

As a conehead who has worked line that pisses me off when guys do that.

As a line engineer you do everything, what you can certify has nothing to do with what you help out with.

Spent many a night covered in skydrol and grease because I want to help my crew to get the work done and get home.

[Ngineer]

I'd be very suprised if any operator is happy to let a rampy c/o tasks iaw the AMM.

So was I, but I guess no-ones watching so who cares?

[SRM]

Ever watched a rampy do a preflight, monkey see monkey do.

[fruitloop]

"You have cone heads sitting in a office all day earning +$150K and refusing to do towing etc."
Not all coneheads are Koala's (protected species)
Gotta agree with kiwi there... Had one changing a brake last night so we could "Go Home".

[Ngineer]

sitting in a office all day earning +$150K

Um, yeah right. Who and where?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I am a Conehead and spent my last 12 years in Mel line. For several years I could not tell you which guys were Greasers and who the Coneheads were. We all did everything including towing.

[Goddamnslacker]

Latest news is that the Maintenance Supervisor Position at Base/SIT will disappear around Nov/Dec. In its place will be Ops Managers above the DMM's.
So there will be an Ops Manager for every shift and below him will be the DMM.
So roughly 10 to 16 positions created all on 170K +, who will actually do nothing with running the business but be on hand to sort out issues non technical & not related to maintenance!!
So the inverted cone of management increases - there are now and will be more levels of management that QF Engineering has ever had before....why?
Because upper management dont trust the guys (DMM's + Supervisors) who actually operate on the coal face, that tell them how it is and what will and will not work...
I still cant see how they can justify having so many levels of management and a MOC that is ridiculously overstaffed, with a smaller fleet of aircraft being operated...but for some reason, Qantas Engineering needs more managers...
Also still 200 staff from the ranks to get the bullet!

[empire4]

Well 10 years ago a study was done by QF SIT. British Airways operated with 12 B1 & 2 B2 guys at Heathrow. I remember the meeting well. Whether right or wrong this was the direction of management 10 years ago. The writing has been on the wall for many years. We are our own worst enemies.

The worst is yet to come.

[Ngineer]

Maintenance Supervisor Position at Base/SIT will disappear around Nov/Dec.

I wonder if the person who made that decision actually understands the tasks carried out by the Maint Sup. Who will pick up the slack?? Not the Snr LAME, that position will be culled soon. Is this a model based on a blue team op? Base/SIT/SDT maybe all one business, but at the end of the day one must understand that these businesses are all unique in operations.

Adding an extra few holes to the cheese.

[going postal]

Cat A's should be able to fill the gaps!
:p

[magic8]

Heard a rumour from TSV refueller that EOI out for TSV and CNS engineers due reduced services .

[empire4]

All the line stations will get nailed with Part 66 CAT "A"s.

[Boeing buster]

When does the Avalon review conclude.
I assume the whole things a farce.
Love the way QF control the media eg 300 Qantas employe's mentioned in media when fishing for Goverment handout. Which soon becomes 240 Forstaff contractor's and a small number of QF employee's who will be offered relocation once they decide to close it down.
Good luck to all

[Boeing buster]

Noticed an Ad yesterday for Airbus / 787 qualified LAME's by Jetstar for MEL based position's.
It looks like the plan is to downsize QF MEL to allow up scaling of Jstar. What option does a bloke have if he needs a job ?

[Jethro Gibbs]

Watch for October 24. Asta La Vista Baby

[Flying Trades Person]

October the 24th. I do not think so.BABY

[Flying Trades Person]

I believe leave is being made compulsory over the Christmas period this year and heard a whisper of WHITE SPACE for over three months next year. Any truth and what do employees do then?

[Jethro Gibbs]

what do employees do then?

They wont be there

[magic8]

Lots of VRs today in FNQ

[Jethro Gibbs]

Still cant get or hold on to staff in Brisbane .

[Capt Quentin McHale]

Jethro....BNE line or hangars or both?

[genxfrog]

Early November announcement and closure in March next year.

[Boeing buster]

What options of redeployment for QF and Forstaff people. Maybe positions in BNE heavy?

[Jacana]

Whats the problem in closing Avalon if the work is no longer req'd? That's the risk of being a contractor.. also don't forget all the fulltime Syd QF employees that lost their jobs to the contractors in 06. Nothing against the contractors at all or Avalon but lets look at the big picture here. The big wheel keeps on turning.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Forstaff Employees are not Contactors Also note that the ALAEA Helped set it up .

[empire4]

So what if the ALAEA helped set it up? You should be grateful you've had work for 10+ years at the expense of all the SYD crew that lost their jobs. It sucks they are closing the place but you have to cop it on the chin.

Forstaff are contractors, Chandler McLeod have a CONTRACT to provide man power/labour to QANTAS. No more work, no more contract no more Jethro.

I suspect a lot of people at AVV have been resting on their butts, not developing them selves etc. Oh, i forgot thats someone else's problem. Well you are about to find out its very much YOUR problem. Get over it, move on. Life sucks sometimes.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Jethro Jethro Jethro...... you would know as well as the rest of us, it was the previous ALAEA executive of company men that helped set up Avalon. But don't let the facts get in the way.

We were told way back in the late 90s when they set up Avalon, that it was for overflow only and would not take work from Sydney heavy. That was a lie on managements part. That lie was to the detriment of those in Sydney and to the benefit of those in Avalon.

I don't like to see people lose their jobs. You guys in Avalon are being treated pretty poorly by management. 12 months ago the real uncertainty started and they are pushing it even further with their farcical review.

But as a Forstaff guy said to me last year when explaining how he thought he would be there for just 18 months but ended up staying 13 years...."not a bad run for an overflow facility"

[Boeing buster]

Forstaff people are part of QF when the the company is trying to screw Federal or State funding. When no funding comes thru and the redundancy announcement is made things change. The statement will continuously refer to contractors being let go and a small group of QF people who will be offered redeployment. Look at the press statements before and after the last round of redundancies.
Many people believe the secret to Avalon's success and continuation was to eat whatever shiiit sandwich they were given. Some people moved on and others decided to just keep low,confident things would roll on. Bottom line is Texas Tony is only interested in short term cost cutting for his bonus, he isn't interested in how we'll behaved you were or how many planes you produced during the last EBA. This fact has been a bitter pill to swallow for some at AVA.

[Jacana]

I think the biggest problem here is some Forstaff employees don't realise that QANTAS outsourced Syd heavy work to Forstaff and you may be fulltime Forstaff employees but you are contractors to Qf.. take a step back, look at the big picture.

As previously stated, nothing against Forstaff employees, or Avalon personally, but 400 fulltime Qf Syd employees were sacked and work transferred down to Avalon, so its a bit rich for you guys to start hatred towards Qf when the same happens to you. What goes around comes around. It was only going to be around as long as the 747 and 767.

[Bagus]

Will Brisbane be the last base standing.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Qantas now offering apprenticeships in BNE when they cant even tell people there on a 12 month deal if they are staying or going .

[Jacana]

That's good Qf are still training. Apprenticeships are offered in Brisbane as it is a requirement to have atleast 9mths heavy maintenance exp for a cert 4 in aeroskills.

[Boeing buster]

Jacana colt empire4
I think you people are spot on with your comments..
What about the KC room plaque. Is the little bloke going to collect it to hang in the pool room at home. Has it been replaced maybe by a Texas Tony plaque?
What a mess and QF will just walk away from it as they always intended.
KC made any visits to AVA lately or is he missing in action?

[Jethro Gibbs]

KC made any visits to AVA lately or is he missing in action?
All are missing in Action they know its over .

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Jethro. Never mind the Sydney HM Qantas guys that you forstaff guys stole jobs from huh? Should I put it that way? No I shouldn’t. But I did anyway.

Like I said, I hate to see people lose their jobs but in reality........

Did it ever occur to you throughout your career with forstaff as to why you guys were not Qantas employees?

Did the penny not drop when the Brisbane facility was opened and staffed by full time Qantas employees rather than labour hire staff such as yourself?

Did you ever wonder why between at least 2003 and 2012 (from my own personal observations) virtually no investment was made in Avalon apart from a coat of Dulux Nassenstein White?

Sadly, despite what managers may have told you, there was never a light at the end of the Avalon tunnel. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can move on. It's sad. It's bloody disgusting. But it’s reality buddy.

As for the rest of us HM blokes who have dodged Sydney and Tulla closures and cornered ourselves in Brisbane, our time will no doubt come one day.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Good to see while 300 are about to lose ther job Qantas has just named Adam Goodes an Ambassador he is thrilled to be working for Qantas and such an honour .
What is the pay rate for an Ambassador these days is there a sash and medal included .

[600ft-lb]

Surely Jethro is a troll.

He throws something out there, waits for replies, but doesn't actually answer anyone's replies, ever.

You know what they say about feeding the trolls.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Re the Ambassador look it up :ok:

[Boeing buster]

If it's over as Jethro thinks why have we not yet heard of any MROs being touted by the company as the new 747 service providers. Would of thought something would of leaked out by now.
Jethro I just wanted to share with you that the only other person to ever state that Forstaff employee's we're not contractors to my knowledge was the last manager of MEL heavy maint. I would hope you aspire to be a bit better than that seedy character or was he someone you admired ?

[Ngineer]

So I guess when the curtains fall on Avalon then a major hangar refurb will follow with all the trimmings? :suspect:

[Jethro Gibbs]

Forstaff employee's are not contractors They are fulltime employee's of Forstaff working under Fulltime employment conditions for Forstaff .
Forstaff is a contractor or has some other form of agreement with Qantas to provide the labour .

[Jacana]

If you don't like Qantas so much why do you work for them?

[Jethro Gibbs]

So another week

[Jacana]

Cat A's wont replace LAMES I don't believe. They cant sign for troubleshooting ect. Ames do the wheel changes anyway most of the time and I believe they can just sign for simple routine tasks such as these, no?

[Bagus]

Qantas engineering gone from 3 base to 2 on the way to one and finally to offshore base ultimately.dont let this happen so keep Avalon going.If JQ Japan can loose 50 million and QF injecting 60 million,what is 6 million to safe Avalon.

[Ngineer]

Cat A's wont replace LAMES I don't believe.

I agree. Alot of work in Syd is beyond the scope of cat 'A'.

[Silverado]

Qantas workers bid to save jobs with leave plan - The Age (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/qantas-workers-bid-to-save-jobs-with-leave-plan-20131031-2wk0w.html)

[NWT]

Like it or not Cat A will replace the LAE. Here in Europe (of which Auss is following by a few years), the numbers of LAE's especially in the Line environment has reduced in all the companies/stations I have been involved with. What ever spin the management come out with, the Cat A is a God send to them. Cheaper certifying staff. Yes agreed the Cat A is limited in what they can sign for but take a realistic look at the majority of the work carried out on the line. Transit, (even done by flight crews so Cat A is a step up !) Daily, weekly, monthly checks, or whatever they are called at your place of work. Wheels, brakes, lights, minor cabin items such as boilers, toilet changes, etc etc. All can be done by Cat A. (with variations in each company). Yes they cant troubleshoot but be honest and look at the percentage of signatures in a log and the type of jobs, a majority can be (and will be) done by Cat A. The numbers of LAE's per aircraft will decline....you are to far down the CaT A route now...good luck...

[genxfrog]

So the ALAEA put a "secret" proposal to Qantas almost 3 weeks ago did they? A proposal that forces us to take anywhere between 3 to 5 months without pay per year. And when did they discuss this proposal with us workers and sought our support?
Mistake number one was to put the proposal to Qantas in the first place as it offers no long term solution to the bigger problem.
Mistake number two was to make the offer "secretely" without all of us having some say.
Mistake number three was to then go to the media and claim that somehow we, those directly impacted, supported the proposal assuming Qantas had agreed.
Steve, the day the Association decides to become a dictatorship, you lose my membership, my respect and my support. Today is that day.

[Jethro Gibbs]

genxfrog :ok:

[TIMA9X]

The aircraft engineers’ union has made a last ditch effort to get Qantas to keep open its heavy maintenance base at Avalon Airport near Geelong, including an offer for workers to take long periods of leave without pay.
The axe has been hovering over the aircraft maintenance base at Avalon since last year, when Qantas began to consolidate its engineering operations around the country.
Qantas says it faces up to 10 months over the next two years when it will not have any aircraft undergoing maintenance at Avalon due to it gradually retiring its fleet of Boeing 747-400 jumbos.
The Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association made a confidential proposal to Qantas three weeks ago, which included an offer for workers to take three months’ leave without pay over the next two years.
Advertisement
But the talks between the two broke down early today when Qantas proposed to involve other unions and inform the workforce at Avalon about the plans for staff to take unpaid leave.
ALAEA president Paul Cousins said the proposal would save Qantas up to $10 million, and allow the airline to keep the Avalon workshops open while it awaits for more aircraft engineering work.
‘‘At the moment the company has said they will have a review – but the code-word for ‘review’ is ‘shutdown’,’’ he said. ‘‘The goal [of Qantas] is to send all work overseas.’’

Read more: Union talks over Qantas Avalon base break down (http://www.smh.com.au/business/aviation/union-talks-over-qantas-avalon-base-break-down-20131031-2wkiw.html#ixzz2jI8zTEXT)

Very Sad :sad:

[Bagus]

Qantas wanted a review where is their proposal,if they wants to shutdown why review ,is it all smokescreen to please the government and public or some sort of conspiracy going on.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

So the ALAEA put a "secret" proposal to Qantas almost 3 weeks ago did they? A proposal that forces us to take anywhere between 3 to 5 months without pay per year. And when did they discuss this proposal with us workers and sought our support?
Mistake number one was to put the proposal to Qantas in the first place as it offers no long term solution to the bigger problem.
Mistake number two was to make the offer "secretely" without all of us having some say.
Mistake number three was to then go to the media and claim that somehow we, those directly impacted, supported the proposal assuming Qantas had agreed.
Steve, the day the Association decides to become a dictatorship, you lose my membership, my respect and my support. Today is that day.

Apart from inaccuracies in your statements, you forgot one thing

- You will get to vote on this

That is not a dictatorship. Other option is that they will close you down, a decision we have been told was made some time ago. If the proposal does come in, you will also have an option to take VR beforehand. Again that decision will be yours.

[Romulus]

I realise it hurts genx and Jethro, but your Union just took a major step towards being a professional partner.

I don't mean that in some condescending way, I mean it in that the ALAEA are looking for solutions to keep jobs in a high cost environment. You can yell and scream and do all the traditional things that Unions do, that will just hasten the process. You have to find a new way of doing things and like it or not that is what the ALAEA are trying.

And no, they can't go to the floor with the proposal first. They need to find something that COULD keep your jobs and then bring it back. Avalon is a disaster to try and keep afloat, the whitespace is a killer. Give Steve and the ALAEA credit for tying to find something to keep you going.

True, you may not like it. But the alternative is very clearly to shutdown.

Neither are particularly palatable choices, but that choice is one that is and has been staring you in the face for some time. Fortunately you have a mature level of management in your Union who are obviously trying to find genuine solutions.

[Sunfish]

If only QF management was as mature as the ALAEA's.

[Bagus]

A spokesman for Qantas said it was not clear how the proposal solved the problem ''that there is no work in the hangar for around five months each year for the next four years''.
He said the airline had spent six weeks looking at options to keep maintenance staff employed, including the one from the engineers association.


Read more: Qantas staff make desperate offer (http://www.theage.com.au/national/qantas-staff-make-desperate-offer-20131031-2wlxq.html#ixzz2jKdbve3D)

-------------------------SO WHERE iS QANTAS OPTIONS------------------------

[Bagus]

AWU has no option:ugh::ugh:
AMWU has no option:ugh::ugh:
FORSTAFF has no option:ugh:ugh:
QANTAS has no option:ugh::ugh:
ALAEA HAS OPTION:D:D:D:D

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Thought I would respond to some of your comments also genxfrog.

So the ALAEA put a "secret" proposal to Qantas almost 3 weeks ago did they? A proposal that forces us to take anywhere between 3 to 5 months without pay per year.

This is not true. The proposal we have put allows Forstaff to force you to take up to 3 months maximum LWOP in 2014 only. In return they must guarantee employment to the end of 2015.

Compared to the other option (being made redundant very soon) over the two year period you will give them 13 weeks pay in exchange for 13 weeks time off. You will also accrue 7 weeks annual leave, 15 days LSL and add 6 weeks pay to your potential redundancy package by adding 2 years service.

Mistake number one was to put the proposal to Qantas in the first place as it offers no long term solution to the bigger problem.

I am not aware of any employer who can guarantee employment forever. Two years is better than none and it gives us a chance to add to that. A number of prospects are out there such as Virgin or Jetstar work that we are also discussing with the Airport, Govts, Qantas and Forstaff.

Mistake number two was to make the offer "secretely" without all of us having some say.

As already explained, you get the final say on this. It would not have worked the other way around.

Mistake number three was to then go to the media and claim that somehow we, those directly impacted, supported the proposal assuming Qantas had agreed.

We did not tell the media that members supported the proposal. We said it would be put to a vote and didn't say that Qantas had agreed either.

[Bagus]

Mr Genxfrog,out there things are much worse,Alaea proposal will make qantas to come to the party whether they agree or not they are due to say something or counter proposal and our vote will determine it.
Apprentices think twice before joining this industry.Hate aviation.:mad:

[Nero62]

Aviation is a wonderful industry. But its a bugger to make money out of. This discussion is way over due. Romulus is spot on, the ALAEA is showing some leadership here and could quickly turn the tables. The problem is the 74s are retiring and no one is going to put in that much effort with such a short timeframe. AVV needs another line of aircraft. Qantas is notorious for being reluctant to take IR risk. You guys should be thinking about how you can make it attractive to bring in other aircraft types. Its not about pay rates any more, its about overheads and efficiency. Avalon could make a huge impact on its cost base by tackling supervision, AME/LAME ratios, training, white space, MPD multipliers. Much can be done. Then at worst you go out fighting!

Good luck!

[Bagus]

I think ALAEA should open up Forstaff enterprise bargaining and negotiate on good fate as the best possible outcome for Avalon on reduce cost base ,productivity ,efficiency so that other aircraft type can be done here.maybe that's what Qantas want.

[Silverado]

I think ALAEA should open up Forstaff enterprise bargaining and negotiate on good fate as the best possible outcome for Avalon on reduce cost base ,productivity ,efficiency so that other aircraft type can be done here.maybe that's what Qantas want.

Haven't you already done that before?

If I remember correctly you did just that, to secure the Reconfigs. This was against the ALAEA recommendation at the time I think. (But the ALAEA still supported the workers decision).

So you got the reconfigs and then lost what, 3 'D' checks?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The eba already caters for many types of aircraft. The blokes are qualified and ready to go on 738 work that can't fit in Bne. We are also trying to secure grants from the govt for 320 licence training so jetstar work can come in.

[AEROMEDIC]

It's truly a big disappointment that despite spending 6 weeks seeking a solution, (or so they say) Qantas was unable to find one.
Under the ALAEA proposal, if agreed, jobs might be saved for a time. I say might, because this is not an honourable company.

And no, they can't go to the floor with the proposal first. They need to find something that COULD keep your jobs and then bring it back. Avalon is a disaster to try and keep afloat, the whitespace is a killer. Give Steve and the ALAEA credit for tying to find something to keep you going.

Absolutely, and the the fact is that negotiations for EBA's are carried out in similar circumstances coming at a time when there is disagreement and rejection of a company's offer. New ground to "get the deal done and accepted by the work force" is found by thinking differently.
The ALAEA is not just a conduit for good news and bad news. Their job is to improve the lot of their members whatever form that takes. When the jobs of their members are threatened by lack of business in this case, they have to find ways to improve the outcome.
I have never seen any other union do anything other than roll over or engage in some fruitless, pointless industrial action.

I hope that some common sense prevails here, but I'm not confident that Forstaff and Qantas will agree to a proposal put by the ALAEA because it WAS the ALAEA.

[genxfrog]

I don't understand how some of us still behave like this has come as a shock. We should remind ourselves that when Qantas announced it was closing HM Tullamarine almost 18 months ago, Avalon would be next in a matter of time. What did we and our Association do during the period between then and now? Why didn't we get on the front foot and engage Forstaff and Qantas knowing full well that this was coming. 6 weeks of rhetoric with representatives of a company that is willing to ground it's whole fleet to prove a point is pointless.
The reality hurts but it is what it is. Qantas have no further use for us and we have served them longer than we all thought. Qantas under Dixon and now Joyce have always focused on cost cutting by off shoring. Bring Nazistein into the equation and he just simply pressed the fast forward button to achieve this outcome.
To genuinely believe that a proposal to allow us to take up to 5 months unpaid leave (depending on which version of the proposal is believable) would save us is incredibly naive. We don't earn the amounts of money that would sustain up to 5 months of unpaid leave and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know this. At the end of the day, our Association and those who represent us should have run this idea past us members first. To be absolutely blunt, don't they get paid by us and therefore work for us?
I applaud doing anything we can but there's got to be some logic applied and I think this was just a knee jerk proposal without a proper thought process being used.
Right now I think the focus and the best and possibly only thing left to do is pursue a better redundancy clause in our EBA negotiations which includes arrangements to assist us in finding other employment or training to move into other industries when we get our marching orders out of here.
I expect further criticism about my comments but speaking to those I work with, it's a common view we have and should prepare ourselves for.

[Romulus]

Genx, in part you are correct, you need to prepare for redundancy, it is the most likely outcome.

Equally the ALAEA are looking for an alternate, any alternate. It may come to nothing, it may be unpalatable but they are trying to find SOMETHING.

Would you accept a mechanism that gives reduced hours?

Would you accept a mechanism that gives you an extra 3 months paid holiday a year but reduces your wage by about 25% (i.e. by the amount you work less)?

Would you accept a model that sees you work a lot of hours when there is work and no hours when there is no work? What if the pay was smoothed over the two types of time?

The simple fact is Avalon is almost certainly history. You are in the so called Piper Alpha situation. The place is burning down around you, you can go to the crew galley (following procedure) and wait or you can take a plunge over the edge. The guys in the galley died, some of those who jumped lived.

It's a sucky choice, but if you're going to get any result other than closure you have to go pretty extreme. Simple as that.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Genxfrog the last lot that went from Avalon were told they would get assistance the guys I know never heard anything from any of the unions .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Jethro you must know the wrong guys.


To genuinely believe that a proposal to allow us to take up to 5 months unpaid leave (depending on which version of the proposal is believable)

There is only one version. Some people may be telling you porky pies but you can't get it more from the horses mouth than me publishing it here. It is up to 3 months LWOP in 2014 only and none in 2015.

To be absolutely blunt, don't they get paid by us and therefore work for us?

Totally. It is an honour to Represent my former workmates. This situation is extremely emotive. What we have done was well thought out, based on member surveys and feedback and better than the other unions or Qantas/Forstaff who have thrown up nothing. If accepted by Qf the vote will be yours.

Right now I think the focus and the best and possibly only thing left to do is pursue a better redundancy clause in our EBA negotiations

This is not a better strategy. Please think it through. The plan of the company is to sack the workers. Most workers want a job. If we walk in and say we want better redundancy payouts they will just say no. We can ask 100 times, the answer will be the same. Why would a company that faces millions of dollars in payouts just agree to add to that amount? If we take action they will just shut down. They planned to anyway.

Romulus things are not looking solid for Avalon's long term prospects but there opportunities on the horizon. Aviation is growing and aircraft will need to be maintained somewhere. Melbourne is spreading West and in 20 years it will be as busy as Adelaide may be today.

Don't give up guys. The ALAEA haven't. We meet again with Qantas 12pm next Wed.

[Bagus]

Qantas is destroying the moral not only in Avalon but whole organization ,Joyce wake up and take control,you are loosing the trust from your employees,how would this help you making qantas profitable,enough has a limit put trust back in engineering.

[Bagus]

Don't give up ALAEA,u are getting support

[Jacana]

You guys need to stop listening to to crap the guys talk on the floor and all the rumors. Just listen to what your managers and union members are saying. The company is winding up operations (which everyone is obviously aware of) and the union is trying to to get as much work for you guys as possible and find solutions to keep some sort of income coming in for you guys. That's the situation. Try and keep a positive attitude and keep doing a good job while your being paid, but start making plans incase things go to crap.

[Ngineer]

wake up and take control,you are loosing the trust from your employees

They are in control.

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/qantas-slammed-for-ir-breaches/story-e6frg95x-1226750788007)

[Bagus]

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
JETSTAR ASIA AWARDS ST AEROSPACE THREE-YEAR LINE MAINTENANCE CONTRACT
Singapore, 28 October 2013 – ST Aerospace and Jetstar Asia announced today a three-year line maintenance contract for Jetstar Asia’s existing and future fleet of A320
~ CHANG Cheow Teck, President, ST Aerospace
Maintenance services for Jetstar Asia’s A320 fleet will be undertaken by a dedicated line maintenance team located at Changi Airport and supported by ST Aerospace’s base maintenance facilities in Changi, where a new narrow-body hangar has recently been added. This new hangar is able to cater for the maintenance of two A320 aircraft simultaneously. This increases ST Aerospace’s global hangar capacity to 38 wide-body bays, 27 narrow-body bays and 24 general aviation bays.
“ST Aerospace knows our business well and we are very confident in our ability to work together to meet Jetstar’s high standards of safety and operational performance. This agreement will help service not only today’s fleet of 19 aircraft but future A320 aircraft that we take in the next few years which will continue our growth in Southeast Asia. The new narrow-body hangar added at Changi has further strengthened our partnership and improved our efficiency as our aircraft can now be maintained right at our doorstep.”
~ Barathan PASUPATHI, CEO, Jetstar Asia

[Jethro Gibbs]

Avalon time off no pay idea slammed by employees in todays geelong advertiser hot topic as unworkable they are pissed off .

[Boeing buster]

Jethro
Are you for or against the proposal ?
Interesting that although QF complain the proposal only covers 2 years both Texas Tony and Steve P know there is work that could be done at AVA starting late 2015.
One group wants AVA closed and the other group wants to keep it alive.
For those who are offended at the proposal I suggest you shut the f--k up,take your redundancies and let others who want to battle on do so.
For those of you unhappy with the ALAEA and it's leadership remember the people who run the airline are the ones who want you gone.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Jethro, could you tell us what you expect the ALAEA to do?

Probably wasting my time asking you as you never have answers..... just complaints.

[Romulus]

Avalon time off no pay idea slammed by employees in todays geelong advertiser hot topic as unworkable they are pissed off .

Any potential solutions offered?

Or just an ongoing expectation that work and jobs will continue when they could be done at a fraction of the price elsewhere?

As I said before and will continue banging on about - you and your base of operations are a VERY high cost provider. Unless you change that you are going to be closed.

Simple as that.

If management of a certain MRO had their wits about them you would have been gone long ago.

[Jacana]

I hope Avalon stays around as long as possible. Its a shame Syd and Mel lost heavy, but the horse has bolted on that one. Lets do what we can to keep Avalon going to atleast retain as much of the industry as possible on Australian soil.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

As I said before and will continue banging on about - you and your base of operations are a VERY high cost provider. Unless you change that you are going to be closed.

I wouldn't be so sure they are high cost. Avalon bid against Haeko of Hong Kong for the 747 reconfig work and the difference in the tender price was a mere 2.5%. (info supplied by Qantas)

Avalon time off no pay idea slammed by employees in todays geelong advertiser hot topic as unworkable they are pissed off .

That's funny. Not one member has contacted the ALAEA to express a negative view on what we have offered. Looks like some of the union officials from the other unions have been busy pretending they are Avalon employees. It is not in the interests of the ALP unions to keep the place open considering they have virtually no members there.

[Jethro Gibbs]

pretending they are Avalon employees

Buy the Paper read it they have there names there and yes they do work there long term employees .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I'll have to get a copy. If they are members of ours repeating the lies of management, they need to be set straight. There is plenty of Qantas work over the next few years, too much to fit into their Brisbane facility.

Got a link Jethro? Nobody I have spoken to this afternoon has seen it.

[Boeing buster]

While QF hang the dead weight of Forstaff around the neck of AVA it will always be behind the 8 ball.
QF are notorious for fudging the figures, remember the 90 million hanger that was really 50 mil to build. Qantas want to outsource H/M and if they decided the time is right politically they will tell all and sundry AVA is way to expensive.
I think they made their minds up months ago, this process is just a fishing trip for future reference for when they decide to turn on Bris Vegas. Not that line maint is safe either.
I always thought personally that senior QF management got a hard on thinking about their alternate workforce at Avalon, just down the road from Tulla. H/M MEL is gone and no one in Brissy is worried by Keith's Avalon EBA storm trooper's anymore including KC.
Maybe they will stick to there old habits and build Avalon into an alternate option to Brisbane. The Fed sec is certainly doing all he can to to keep the place going. This would be a longer sighted strategy not really suited to our current, foreign, short term orientated management team. ( excuse my use of the HR : team : terminology wank )
Only time will tell.

[Romulus]

I wouldn't be so sure they are high cost. Avalon bid against Haeko of Hong Kong for the 747 reconfig work and the difference in the tender price was a mere 2.5%. (info supplied by Qantas)

There's a difference between the cost of a given check and the actual full cost of the facility SP.

All the whitespace during downtime is the real crux of the issue,there's a huge cost there that needs addressing.

[Ngineer]

As I said before and will continue banging on about - you and your base of operations are a VERY high cost provider.

When you consider the levels of management, their bonuses, the IR/HR head-kicking machine that keeps getting larger and stronger, I would hardly consider a lowly LAME's wage to be the root cause of a high cost base.

The reasons they want us gone are purely and solely personal reasons (in my honest opinion).

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

There's a difference between the cost of a given check and the actual full cost of the facility SP.

When a company does it's quotes it generally rolls in overhead costs. The tender should reflect all these. The quote was not just for one aircraft. It was a $200M reconfig price across an entire fleet. 2.5% difference.

All the whitespace during downtime is the real crux of the issue, there's a huge cost there that needs addressing.

Very true. If you strip out all your work and create a maintenance plan with a lot of holes in it, of course it will be inefficient. Qantas chose to plan it that way. We answered the plan with a solution made to match. No work to do-no pay.

Of course now they have a problem. They only pretended they had no work to do so they could send this work offshore but our answer has negated their pretend reason.

On Wed we will be releasing the real workloads showing available work on Qantas aircraft. They say there is 44 weeks whitespace. We have re-adjusted their plan so it has been cut back to 4 weeks. That's right, they should be running Avalon with 4 weeks whitespace and that information will be made public on Wed.

Ian if you are reading this let Alan know that the truth will come out. Better we make a joint good news announcement later this week.

[Romulus]

When you consider the levels of management, their bonuses, the IR/HR head-kicking machine that keeps getting larger and stronger, I would hardly consider a lowly LAME's wage to be the root cause of a high cost base.

The reasons they want us gone are purely and solely personal reasons (in my honest opinion).

Get over the bonus issue, it clouds too much thinking.

The QF IR/HR machine is, somewhat bizarrely, protecting you. Too scared of losing the established grip and ability to hoover up billable hours or the fact that any real change achieved will show up their own lack of ability to deliver change a certain individual stymies attempts to deliver what needs to be done.

Paradoxically that will ultimately bring everything down around you because you cannot ultimately keep avoiding the issue which is that in a global environment there are much cheaper and equally valid options available.

Ultimately QF engineering is a minimum of 33% too expensive, and that's against other flag carrier benchmarks. If the IR/HR function was really in synch with what QF can and ultimately must do then there would be massive change. But it won't happen because they lack the capability to genuinely lead in painful times.

To me that is the utter failure of management. Their job is to lead through the utter cr*p you are facing and provide a future for as many as possible. Yes some, many, will leave. Like it or not that is the reality. Yell, scream, carry on all you like but you're getting more and more up against it. The IR guys are building their case to take you out entirely because "change is impossible", that is their only escape from their own incapability to deliver what needs to be done. So ultimately instead of losing numbers you are going to lose in entirety.

I don't know the details of the ALAEA unpaid leave offer but it addresses, at least partially, the biggest single issue facing Avalon. Whitespace. 50% whitespace doubles the cost of each hour on the tools. How that issue is handled is the single most critical factor to your future as an industry. Your overseas competition like SIAEC have that issue sorted far more efficiently than QF do.

If you guys have the long term in mind you need to get behind SP and the ALAEA because otherwise you are rooted.

[Romulus]

There's a difference between the cost of a given check and the actual full cost of the facility SP.


When a company does it's quotes it generally rolls in overhead costs. The tender should reflect all these. The quote was not just for one aircraft. It was a $200M reconfig price across an entire fleet. 2.5% difference.


That's not the QF way. When we were supposedly competing against the benchmarks we soon realised QF central was paying a number of key costs (eg insurance) that were not broken down and included in the competitive model.

Sort of. That competition didn't take the fully costed facility into account. As I understand it that was a key determining issue.





All the whitespace during downtime is the real crux of the issue, there's a huge cost there that needs addressing.

Very true. If you strip out all your work and create a maintenance plan with a lot of holes in it, of course it will be inefficient. Qantas chose to plan it that way. We answered the plan with a solution made to match. No work to do-no pay.

Agreed. And that is why I am trying to provide a measured and rational response to the posters who reckon the ALAEA proposal is a bad thing.


Of course now they have a problem. They only pretended they had no work to do so they could send this work offshore but our answer has negated their pretend reason.

On Wed we will be releasing the real workloads showing available work on Qantas aircraft. They say there is 44 weeks whitespace. We have re-adjusted their plan so it has been cut back to 4 weeks. That's right, they should be running Avalon with 4 weeks whitespace and that information will be made public on Wed.

Ian if you are reading this let Alan know that the truth will come out. Better we make a joint good news announcement later this week.

Good luck with that. I look forward to seeing the info. I hope it works out, but I'm not sure the logic is hitting home.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Romulus, your insight and guidance is always appreciated by me anyway.

cheers

[Bagus]

Other union has no interest at Avalon and giving all false information about LWOP ,do the maths u will loose some but u gain employment and u get extra year of leave,LSL,extra redundancy payout,3% pay rise and if you pay average ur losses is minimal.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Buy the Paper read it they have there names there and yes they do work there long term employees .

Thank you Jethro. We got hold of this paper and yes two employees had written letters to the Editor explaining how there was no future for Avalon and they didn't want our 3 months LWOP plan.

Both of them were Managers.

[Boeing buster]

On Wed we will be releasing the real workloads showing available work on Qantas aircraft. They say there is 44 weeks whitespace. We have re-adjusted their plan so it has been cut back to 4 weeks. That's right, they should be running Avalon with 4 weeks whitespace and that information will be made public on Wed.:bored:



Where can I see this information Fed Sec

[Jethro Gibbs]

When did Sarah Henderson MP meet with Avalon employees and union chiefs as she claims in todays Geelong Advertiser .

Corangamite MP takes on Qantas chief over Avalon jobs | Geelong Advertiser (http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/news/conrangamite-mp-takes-on-qantas-chief-over-avalon-jobs/story-fnjuhxh0-1226753940416)

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Where can I see this information Fed Sec

In the notice we sent to all Avalon ALAEA members this arvo.


When did Sarah Henderson MP meet with Avalon employees and union chiefs as she claims in todays Geelong Advertiser .

Two weeks ago. She was at toolbox meetings and has met and spoken to union leaders. Trying to get to the important issues I notice. See if you can catch the local member out lying.

I'd be more worried about your job and trying to secure that.

[Boeing buster]

Read the notice SP, very interesting reading. As always you, PC and the team have cut through all the QF crap.
Must say your ternacity in fighting for AVA is quiet admirable considering the facility's track recording supporting ALAEA. Still we all know despite the high degree of management lackey's some good people also work there.
Can't wait to hear how Texas Tony responds.

[Bagus]

After loosing 2 maintenance base,AVA is a challenge and I am quite sure the media attention and politician are also on notice so is QF reputation about saving jobs in Australia.Good work Alaea team

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Thnx guys. We've pretty much done all we can. Sorry AWU members, we didn't incorporate the suggestion of your State Sec who said on ABC radio that they hoped "Qantas can replace the retiring 747 aircraft work with the bigger Boeing".

For those interested our full and abbreviated presentation can be viewed here -

ALAEA - Notice 33/2013 Qantas & Forstaff: Meeting Today Over Avalon Future (http://www.alaea.asn.au/notices/notices-2013/533-notice-33-2013-qantas-forstaff-meeting-today-over-avalon-future)

[Boeing buster]

Can I suggest that if AVA does survive it must be as QF facility not incorporating a labour hire company.
I think this is crucial to all QF engineering ops going forward. I know we can't force this but it is an important point.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Can I suggest that if AVA does survive it must be as QF facility not incorporating a labour hire company.
I think this is crucial to all QF engineering ops going forward. I know we can't force this but it is an important point.

You can push something because you think it is an "important point" but at the end of the day, we aren't trying to score points or win arguments about something we think is important. We are trying to save people's jobs.

Right now as workers we have nothing to bargain with. We cannot threaten them or place excessive demands before them. What we can do is sell our virtues. The excellent safety record. Flexible work practices with rosters. Multiple hangars to work out of and ability to cross over many aircraft types.

If we demanded Labour hire go. It would and so would the facility. Some things are worth fighting for and others, you just have to live with.

[1746]

Your effort is evidenced and regardless of the outcome you can't be accused of not giving it your best shot!

Keep up your fantastic efforts but don't burn yourselves out!

Well done again - thanks!:D:D:D

[Boeing buster]

1746
Totally agree.

[Bagus]

The Age
A spokesman for the airline said the key issue was that there were 22 months over the next four years where there was "no work [scheduled] in the hangar in Avalon". He said there were "significant issues with the [engineer association's] proposal".

[Jethro Gibbs]

Uncredited journo has an article in todays Herald Sun Page 12 stated workers could maybe get work on Other Airlines Aircraft at Avalon .
Article writer failed to realise once Qantas is gone Forstaff is just left with a rented office some old furniture and box of paper clips that's it .

[Omnipresent]

The official announcement has been made:

Qantas announces outcome of Avalon Maintenance Review (http://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-announces-outcome-of-avalon-maintenance-review)

[Old Akro]

Why the hell would the Victorian government "support this decision"!?

Why would an arrogant Sydney based company give any thought as to what the Victorian Govt. might think? I've been on a trade mission with both executives from Avalon Airport and Victorian Government ministers. My observation is that they are earnest in their attempts to generate business for Avalon Airport.

Singapore is not a low cost country. The real question is how is it cheaper for Qantas? And, if Qantas has excess capacity, surely management with vision could either seek additional outside work or spin it off as a separate business which (like the Singaporean maintenance bases) could compete for other airline work.

[Kiwiconehead]

Having just done a project in a Malaysian MRO, yes the labour my be half the hourly rate - but when it takes 2 of them twice as long to do a job as an Aussie tradesman what are you really saving?

If you need a quick and dirty c check for end of lease - yes, send it to an Asian MRO, if you actually want it to be reliable in service, do it yourself.

[Flying Trades Person]

Not quite right on Employees taking no pay leave, ALAEA put that forward and it did not get voted on but I can assure you it would not have made it.

[Flying Trades Person]

Last couple of CEO's tried to get Avalon closed but our little Irish mate (loose word) has done it!!!!

[Flying Trades Person]

Yes standing at this speech I was a bit staggered when that was said, any questions was asked but the shock of closure was a bit mind numbing and not much discussed.

[Bagus]

TL did the dirty job for CN

[Flying Trades Person]

Right on the money with that statement.

[TIMA9X]

For what it's worth, this is what LS said,

EZbkiAZVrU4

[Sunfish]

Liars, cowards and cheats. It is inconceivable that the Avalon closure was not decided upon many months ago. Airlines plan maintenance years in advance. This was not a sudden decision.

[Bagus]

How did they got aircraft plan for 4 years Ava when they cant plan for 3 month,can they show plan for Bne for 4 years.How come 2 years ago there was no wide space at Ava.What a conspiracy

[SOPS]

The Irish man has done it again. Slowly but surely, he is closing down Qantas.

[Suck&Blow]

If you were planning on shutting down a heavy maintenance facility, wouldn't you have already chosen somewhere else to do the work?? :ugh:

[Insider Trader]

So let me get this straight. You all take advantage of the high Australian dollar, get your ID90 tickets, and head off to Asia to take full advantage of the services that the strength of your currency provides. But when your employer does that, you scream blue murder. Ever stopped to think how our domestic tourism & leisure service providers must be feeling when all of Oz is jumping on QFxx and spending their money O/S? No, didn't think so...

[AEROMEDIC]

Sunfish,

Absolutely.

Avalon played it's part in the demise of the Sydney and Melbourne Heavy Maintenance bases as part of the grand plan hatched by Dixon and executed by Joyce. Don't think that Brisbane is safe either, even if they do have a lot of work right now. The fact is that the trickle of work to overseas MRO's will become a torrent although it may be some years for that. They are reliant on the use of late version aircraft that will be very forgiving, unless there is an incredible act of stupidity or terrorism, with a few exceptions, like manufacturing or design faults.

Anyone see what's coming ?

So let me get this straight. You all take advantage of the high Australian dollar, get your ID90 tickets, and head off to Asia to take full advantage of the services that the strength of your currency provides. But when your employer does that, you scream blue murder.

Actually, I do know that when Avalon employees get an ID90 trip they are at the bottom of the list to get on at level 72 and no upgrade possible. If the partner wants to fly too, they must be accompanied by the employee. Qantas employees on the other hand, get access to all classes and don't have such restrictions applied. Much easier to have a commercial ticket in the hand.

[nomorecatering]

So far we have

Qantas IT - Gone

Engineering - almost gone

Reservations, call centres - almost gone

what is next.......

Cabin crew - have experimented in the past with Thai FA's. that was a learning expedition for future implementation.

The next group on the hit list will be pilots.

The aim is to make QF a virtual airline, everything will be outsourced. Why pat $25,000 a month for an Australian FO when you can get an Asian FO for $1500 a month.

[Kharon]

I would, with your indulgence, like to butt in here. It has for some 40 years now been a large part of my comfort zone, that the chunk of metal strapped to my arse was maintained by dedicated, skilled Australian engineers; who, while perhaps not giving a bugger about the clot in the cockpit, cared that their baby came home: preferably in one piece. Now, must I wonder if the cut price maintenance, dollar shifting bonus factory actually cares. Is my aircraft while being 'legally' serviceable, actually serviceable to the standard I'm used to, when I must ask the big question of the old girl. Can I trust you? when Murphy turns up, here all alone in a big night sky? I guess time will tell. Bad news guys; sorry too much, but I feel we have just lost a little more than the jobs. Sad...

[up2us]

Kharon, You will also have the pleasure of your A/c not seeing a LAME on arrival into Aus as most are now covered by M.O.D (maint on demand) or if you are lucky you will see an A lic guy...... The bottom is fast approaching and its now up to the fellas flying them to demand some answers as Steve and the ground guys have tried their best! Sad day for australian Aviation.

[Jack Ranga]

I've got this mate, he's of Asian descent. He's got a broader Australian accent than I have, likes a beer. Australian 'culture' is as important to him as his Chinese culture. The sad day for Australian aviation was when a non-Australian was put in charge of this outfit. He's not Australian, never will be. His culture is scabby low cost garbage.

[AEROMEDIC]

Kharon,

Wise words and insightful sentiment.

[lamem]

Avalon was always going to close. They had decided long ago and only spoke to the unions as a token gesture. Poor Steve etc were only trying their best but simply wasting their time. Avalon will not be the last they are coming for us all. The end game is that nothing will be left, do not doubt this. They want it all gone.
Our best to ALL our colleagues there no matter who they worked for.

[Bagus]

SIAEC and LTP is celebrating now what work Bne can't do it will go there.A330 jetstar reconfig to QF probably some done in LTP and B747 in SASCO,QF freight service and Jetconnect in New Zealand. SIAEC building more hangar to take more work from QF.Avalon hangars empty

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Avalon will not be the last they are coming for us all. The end game is that nothing will be left, do not doubt this. They want it all gone.



They are coming for us all. The ALAEA needs members to understand this. If I put out a notice seeking some help handing out flyers at train stations, it would be good to get more than four volunteers this time.

[Bagus]

TL comments at Ava ,not sure where they will maintain B747

[SOPS]

I can see what the plan is...destroy Qantas. What I can't work out is why?

[Bagus]

Time for all aircraft workers to join one union-ALAEA.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Bagus, most AME's that actually work on the aircraft want to join the ALAEA. Pretty much the only ones that don't are reps of the AME unions. Unfortunately, those unions made sure that the ALAEA cannot legally sign up AME's. They have shafted their own members. Bloody disgrace.

[AEROMEDIC]

Sops,

Why ?

The Qantas board doesn't want to destroy Qantas, it simply doesn't like being told what to do or how to do it by anyone, even if it's a good idea.

It has a long term plan and will not budge from it. It even grounded the airline to show how much power it had. Unions ? Not a problem ! Play them so they think they are making headway and then hit them with a "take it or leave it" offer. Leave it and we shut down that part of the operation and outsource.
As long as this board continues to be in power making the decisions that they do, the less chance there is of meaningful profits being returned to the shareholders and the more chance of further cuts.
What I fail to understand is why the board continually gets the support of the major shareholders.
The largest Qantas shareholder—with 22.72 percent of the company—is J. P. Morgan Nominees Australia, a division of the global J. P. Morgan investment house.
The second largest is HSBC Custody Nominees with 18.91 percent. Next is National Nominees with an 18.26 percent stake. The fourth largest is Citicorp Nominees.
These four investment funds are also among the largest shareholders of Australia’s four major banks, the Commonwealth Bank, National Australia Bank, Westpac Bank and ANZ Bank, which in turn are large shareholders of the investment funds.
So these shares under the control of the investment managers wield very significant power when AGM's come around.
In recent years there has been very little gain except to John Singleton and co. on their supposed takeover bid.
Why are they being so patient? Perhaps it's the expectation that with enough time, they actually get back to making a dollar or two.
But at what cost? None of these institutional shareholders care about reductions in safety, quality, etc.
Just the bottom line, and THAT's not good either.

They are coming for us all. The ALAEA needs members to understand this.

Steve,
They have carefully orchestrated the biggest stealth attack on their own employees in 50 years.
I don't think I can remember another Australian company doing this on the same scale as and furtively as this one.

[ACT Crusader]

Time for all aircraft workers to join one union-ALAEA.

Bagus, most AME's that actually work on the aircraft want to join the ALAEA. Pretty much the only ones that don't are reps of the AME unions. Unfortunately, those unions made sure that the ALAEA cannot legally sign up AME's. They have shafted their own members. Bloody disgrace.

Boy fellas, is it the right time to start this one up again?

Agree with others that the fate of Ava has been sealed for some tone. What the 'review' probably revealed was the timing and what the prospects of redeployment are of the 59 odd direct QF employees. The Fair Work Act says redeployment must first be considered and utilised before a genuine redundancy can occur.

[TIMA9X]

It is inconceivable that the Avalon closure was not decided upon many months ago. Airlines plan maintenance years in advance. This was not a sudden decision. I totally agree Sunfish, I believe it was part of the plan way back in early 2011.

For me, about 0.47s in on this video (below) the fearless foreign leader gave the game away with " there is no off-shoring of jobs" (and he said this many times after.)

TWjtVMo_PGc

From that day on I believed off-shoring was a big part of the Q board's plans, they just didn't know how they were going to do it... both Labor & The Liberals at the time did not pick up on where Q management was heading (or chose to remain silent) other than Nick X. Both major political parties allowed the plans to go unchallenged, they paid a lot of lip service but slowly as time went on Q management bit by bit slashed jobs, they haven't announced anything positive since Joyce was installed.

I've got this mate, he's of Asian descent. He's got a broader Australian accent than I have, likes a beer. Australian 'culture' is as important to him as his Chinese culture. The sad day for Australian aviation was when a non-Australian was put in charge of this outfit. He's not Australian, never will be. His culture is scabby low cost garbage. I agree Jack, I'm afraid we Aussies have lost the "Aussie spirit" that we were all once proud of, because we have allowed the "global corporate Wallies" in to run our once Australian ran business's. I think there are many other examples of this, one that comes to mind is when Rio Tinto based itself in London and the foreign CEO at the time lost millions with dumb deals in Africa etc. We don't look after our own anymore. Rinehart urges Rio Tinto to move to Perth (http://www.smh.com.au/business/rinehart-urges-rio-tinto-to-move--to-perth-20130120-2d0yi.html)

Jack, I also have many friends who are Asian decent who agree with me, some of them say stuff like Australia has lost it's way because its business leaders (a lot now foreign) are more interested in pleasing "foreign institutional investment houses" for short term personal gain, Australia comes second. We are been sold out slowly, brick by brick, my feeling anyway.

Those bozo's in Canberra on both sides of the political fence seem to think this business direction for our country is also the way forward, just look at how the the big four Banks are allowed to also flourish, again a lot of political lip service spent at times but the banks continue to squeeze job's for Aussies whilst they print money for themselves.

Probably more than ever in Australia's history "the political talent pool" we have in Canberra is at an all time low on both sides of politics. I can't think of one stand out politician who can see the wood's through the trees.

I found it odd today that AJ left the announcement for LS to make, he didn't even have the guts to do it himself, says a lot about Joyce to me as a man, he failed to front up, he was busy talking about Aer Lingus Qantas chief Joyce 'not surprised' at interest in Aer Lingus - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/qantas-chief-joyce-not-surprised-at-interest-in-aer-lingus-29733553.html)

Sadly the Avalon announcement today will not gain a lot of attention from the mainstream media, they too are slowly been culled, many journalists have also lost their jobs this year, the media industry must be feeling it as much as the Qantas staff do. It's a sad state for our nation.

I think the best summary of events was posted by Ben Sandilands today, says it all. Qantas closure at Avalon raises harsh questions | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2013/11/08/qantas-closure-at-avalon-raises-harsh-questions/)

I have great respect for you all at Avalon, I feel for you guys, if I had three wishes one of them would be reserved for you guys.

Good luck to all of you...:ok:

[SOPS]

I just know I will be sitting here in the next few months/years, reading about the shut down of Qantas, a.k.a Ansett, and AJ will have bolted to his castle in Ireland, and about to commence a senior position with Ryanair/Aer Lingus.:ugh:

[james ozzie]

If the 747 fleet is disappearing, what is replacing those seats? Surely there are other newer aircraft also requiring checks and heavy maintenance? The press statement glibly says that newer planes need less maintenance but that is surely not the case with periodic inspections? Or is Qantas a shrinking airline?

(I have not waded through the thread so apologies if this has already been answered - thank you)

[Flying Trades Person]

Thanks ampclamp you are so right on the money.

[Flying Trades Person]

BrissySparkyColt I do not know your area but at Avalon anyone can join ALAEA and have.

Just a note we have quite a few Asian Workers at Avalon and they do a good job, not pressured as much as in Asian Countries to just get em out.

[500N]

i am not a pilot but a comment on the question and answer interview I heard on 774 Friday afternoon with the Qantas manager.

I don't think he came across with his answers that well, especially when
asked a direct question about whether he cared about the Avalon employees.

He didn't say "yes, of course, but", he went into a typical Politician type answer and I think lost people at that point.

[73to91]

nomorecatering:

Corporate reception including the switchboard staff have just been told they are gone apparently. Jobs outsourced to Accor. Think about that, these staff do not earn much and are part timers for many. So what does QF save.

Believe the Accor are also running the QF Clubs in SYD now as well.

Point is, if they are looking at these small numbers, who's pay levels are not so high, surely Finance could be moved to India, Marketing just sold off completely to a large marketing mob? Crew scheduling given to a transport or bus company, or a state rail?

Was told by a mate who is in HQ that the place is just known as Air India now anyway.

[GodDamSlacker]

From a manager high up, next on the chopping block is Sydney, Ops Managers for all areas to cull the numbers right back. Anyone who doesn't follow the Management vision while be given the bullet!
Stage One No more Supervisors for SIT or Base Servicing...modeled of the Domestic Model but Ops Managers for every shift to streamline the manpower down...Cat A's pushed into the front line...To all those guys going for Ops Managers positions, good luck to you but don't expect any respect or credibility when your shafting people who have carried you for so many years..
2014 will see the biggest slashing in QF Engineering, managements decision to enforce total control over any union or group that challenges any of their decisions..

[Wally Mk2]

I really feel for the guys hanging off the end of the spanners that keep the planes flying whom are facing uncertainty.
Aviation was once a proud industry, a team industry where those employed worked in a field that was exciting, had a future & was expanding to meet the needs to the traveling public, now's it's just a grubby industry where grubby leaders with short term vision reign, it's ugly.


'Aero' the major shareholders in QF (or any major business in Oz for that matter) don't care how QF do business it's all about the bottom line, their return on their investment with the smallest of outlay cost. QF could be a toilet roll maker it's irrelevant what they actually do to make money for the shareholders. People who make up any business are just 'tools' to be used like a spanner to fix something. There's no pride in this industry anymore, the CEO's of today show this on a daily basis.

At the end of the day that Tom Hanks saying ('You've Got mail' movie) fits well here..............it's business not personal, it's business not personal............:ugh:



Wmk2

[ranmar850]

I think there are many other examples of this, one that comes to mind is when Rio Tinto based itself in London and the foreign CEO at the time lost millions with dumb deals in Africa etc. We don't look after our own anymore. Rinehart urges Rio Tinto to move to Perth

Possibly off-topic, but on the subject of foreign ownership--Rio Tinto has always been London based, since they were incorporated in the late 1800's. Head office has always been in London--that said, there was a push to have them move headquarters to Perth, to more accurately reflect the where they actually make their profits. They are global, but currently, most of their global profits come from RTIO, in WA. Tom Albanese led them into a lot of debt with bad purchases, Sam Walsh, the aussie, former chief of RTIO, is now leading them out of it.

And this is where I get back strictly on-topic. This highly profitable business is , and has been since Sam Walsh took over, looking hard at costs and one of these costs is the people we employ. It started with a shock culling of senior Pilbara management,above mine operations, a whole layer removed. Then it started at site level. Mostly fly-in day, a call into the office, pre-prepared redundancy package presented, thank you for your service , back on a plane that afternoon.And the redundancies are quite generous, well over what is specified in our individual agreements. But none of this was on the shop floor level--all management , supervisory, and admin positions. Which is doubtless where Qantas should REALLY be trying to improve the bottom line. I repeat, no-one who actually wields a tool or drives a machine has gone. And it has been purely on position, length of service or ability really counts for nought; it is just the position. None of this awful bloody trench warfare they have been inflicting on you, rumours, prolonged "negotiations", the death of a thousand cuts.

And now my department, on our site, is up next for review. The depth of the cuts has been quite staggering, managers are still leaving; mine is a statutory compliance position, required under two separate pieces of legislation, but I really get the feeling, that, sometime soon, I won't be getting on the F-truck to WAN anymore. So I feel I am facing redundacy too, but at least my skills are transferable, and I am of the the age where I could maybe sit back a bit, consider my future.

But there are doubtless many who have mortgages and growing children, who fear the future. You may have to look outside your industry--I was in an industry I loved for thirty years, couldn't conceive of doing anything else, and when the crunch came , it was dark times and dark thoughts all around. But I pushed into something else, struggled initially, got on my feet, and I'm still standing and prospering. If I do get the tap some time soon, it'll just be another door to open.

Your union, in the end, was unable to affect the outcome, but certainly not through lack of trying. If there was a union, unaffiliated to any political party, in the industry I am in , who conducted their affairs the way the ALAEA has worked for their members, I'd join it.

Good luck to all of you, and this isn't the end of the world. We can only hope that karma catches up with Joyce et al.

[Capt Quentin McHale]

Kharon,

I am of your vintage and spent all my working life on the engineering "rockpile" and absolutely loved every minute of it in rain, hail or shine. But what is happening now to OUR icon across the board is criminal. Take heart that every engineer out there, no matter what happens, will perform as professionally as would be expected and that they will NEVER lower their standards to that of current management!!! (sorry, does that mean I'm engaged?...NOT)

Up2us,

You are correct with what you say, but if there are defects (any type of defect, no matter how trivial) written up in the techlog on arrival, you will see a LAME.
Food for thought.....Up2u now.....

On a sad note, my heart goes out to all the guys and gals at Avalon, best of luck for whatever the future holds for you.

[Bagus]

The airline said it would look at moving some maintenance work done at Avalon to other Australian facilities, or to Germany, Singapore, Hong Kong, Britain or the US.

Friday's cuts pushed the number of jobs Qantas has axed from engineering operations in the past 18 months above 1500.

No wonder unemployment in this country creeping higher.
Qantas must be doing good job sacking but share price not going higher maybe 15000 will make a difference.

[Townsville Refueller]

The airline said it would look at moving some maintenance work done at Avalon to other Australian facilities, or to Germany, Singapore, Hong Kong, Britain or the US.

Talk about clouding the arrangements, those are the choices really. :rolleyes:

Rumour has it that most aircraft on domestic use mainly B737s will still be done in BNE, but ALL the larger aircraft used on international routes will be going to....... NONE of those places, but to Emirates in Dubai. :(

[Romulus]

The largest Qantas shareholder—with 22.72 percent of the company—is J. P. Morgan Nominees Australia, a division of the global J. P. Morgan investment house.
The second largest is HSBC Custody Nominees with 18.91 percent. Next is National Nominees with an 18.26 percent stake. The fourth largest is Citicorp Nominees.
These four investment funds are also among the largest shareholders of Australia’s four major banks, the Commonwealth Bank, National Australia Bank, Westpac Bank and ANZ Bank, which in turn are large shareholders of the investment funds.

One hopes you learn other stuff, particularly aviation safety related things, more quickly than you learn your misconception about shareholdings is incorrect. I've posted about this at least half a dozen times.

Look up the definition of "nominee".

It's not terribly hard (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+nominee&l=1)

Refer #2

Those companies CANNOT vote those shares. Only the true beneficial owners can instruct them. And that is the superannuation funds who own the shares but for reasons of probity and member security must keep them with a nominee company.

And just in case that hasn't sunk in yet...

Nominee company (http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/nominee-company.html)

It would really help your argument if you got your obvious claims correct. Failing to do that brings your entire credibility into question, particularly when you have been given the correct information repeatedly.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Sacked from Avalon my guess you will be even more pissed off when you see the news tonight as Qantas has sent an Ambassador and group to Seattle to rub gum leaves over a new Aircraft .:mad: No cost cutting here .
Qantas unveils aircraft's Aboriginal art - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/19755386/qantas-unveils-aircrafts-aboriginal-art/)

[Bagus]

Need blessing now after sacking 300

[Boeing buster]

Anyone have any idea as to to what relocation possibilities exist in the QF network ?
Will options such as Bris Heavy be offered to Forstaff people who want to move ?

[Kharon]

Capt QM # 203 - I am of your vintage and spent all my working life on the engineering "rockpile" and absolutely loved every minute of it in rain, hail or shine. But what is happening now to OUR icon across the board is criminal. Take heart that every engineer out there, no matter what happens, will perform as professionally as would be expected and that they will NEVER lower their standards to that of current management It troubles me that the fetish for slash and burn tactics, selfish quick KPI driven short term gains and complete loss of 'understanding' will, in the long term need to be reversed. The failure to see that in the 'past' it was always, for nearly all a labour of love and a team effort that built our great airlines. The stuff of legend now; ginger beers at 3 am o'clock struggling to turn a sick airframe around, so it would be ready for the next service; front of house boys and girls soothing passengers during the interminable wait for transport; pilots in the back room, sweating over the fuel and time figures to ensure that the service arrived 'on time'. The entire cast and crew toddling off home with a feeling of well job well done and looking forward to work the next day. The destruction of that team spirit, the willingness to work a bit harder or to do the job better is counter productive and detrimental to the hallowed bottom line. Airlines cannot be run as a toilet roll factory as one wit remarked. Although this will not come back to haunt those who disappear to live in little ivory castles, far removed from the misery of 300 Christmas day parties, where the shadow of uncertainty is an unwelcome guest.

Big Q may well have been a bit of a sheltered workshop at one time, but had the realities of modern business been anticipated as they were forecast and revealed, adopted as they were happening, had been managed correctly, through foresight and acumen; perhaps, just maybe, it would have only been 30 VR rather than 300 gone - to improve the very sick 'bottom line', not to mention obscene bonuses.

It will not ease my mind when a small, previously unremarkable snag appears. Now, must I suspect the integrity of the whole system?; has some lazy, useless, unsupervised bugger clipped a wire with a staple?, what else is compromised ?. Do I land at the nearest suitable and relax; or can I with some surety rely on the integrity of the maintenance. Legally serviceable v operational integrity; "Sorry folks, my obligation ends at the next suitable as I am no longer able to rely on our quality, company controlled maintenance organisation". And anyway, what is wrong with an all expenses paid weekend in Sri Lanka ?, I'd like to know.

This little Sunday rant may seem a bit esoteric, but if the essentials, safety, service, integrity, reliability, team effort; the things that made great airlines are removed, what's left. The bloody bean counters and the dregs of legal services? – not enough to run an air service, not by a bloody long shot. Selah.

Sorry guys, steam off. Back to my knitting. (only slightly embarrassed).....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wibble.gif

[chest rockwel]

@ Kharon.

Yes it seems a race to the bottom with Qf and their tactics. Any idea what the master plan is? Probably they want to operate the airline only and outsource as much maintenance as possible along with other departments. Here in HK, CX have done something similar, the CX engineering department is not a patch on what it once was in size, HAECO being the main Maintenance provider. At any Cx outstations local terms are on offer only.

Its a crying shame that maintenance is being treated as a small necessity these days, where as you said bean counters straight from uni seem to have the most important value in the inverted pyramid.:suspect:

[PPRuNeUser0198]

Just a question; Qantas performs all of its maintenance of all aircraft types in Australia except the A380.

Does Virgin complete all of its maintenance in Australia, or offshore?

[going postal]

You dont see Virgin painting on their aircraft.."Spirit of Australia"

[Cactusjack]

This crap will continue until the day that we all read about it at; www.smokinghole.com.au

[Boeing buster]

Ref Post # 209 redeployment options.
I believe the sincerity of the QF management in regard to their disappointment in closing Avalon can be measured in what redeployment options they propose for staff facing redundancy.
I am told all MEL Heavy maint applicants to Bris Vegas were accepted. Surely a base whose staff has served so loyally would be given the the same option. Let's face it MEL was hardly looked upon by management in positive light in comparison to Avalon.
Am I right to assume there is still a shortage in Bris Heavy.

[Boeing buster]

I see Ampclamp. Thank you
It will be interesting to see if any degree of decency prevails on the part of QF by at least allowing those who are able to move to Bris Heavy the opportunity to.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

Flat out in Brissy. Around 2000hrs overtime / week being worked. That equates to aprox. 280 staff short. One would therefore hope Avalon guys are offered jobs in Brisbane.

[Ngineer]

Sacked from Avalon my guess you will be even more pissed off when you see the news tonight

Thats pretty ironic. The way we are heading the only thing left of the business that would be Australian is the artwork on the plane.

[Jethro Gibbs]

I believe Q were pretty good in trying to relocate people and provide other
services ie career transition advice.

The last lot from Avalon got F**K All Help from QF & Forstaff Apart for a letter months down the track From the AVV QF Manager Thanking them for such good service .

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The career advice is "how to write a resume".

The experience we write in there wouldn't even get us a job at McDonalds.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

The last lot from Avalon got F**K All Help

Nice try but no cigar.

I'm sitting right now eating lunch with two ex Avalon guys. Both LAME's. Both said they were more than happy with the assistance they recieved.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I think he is talking about the Forstaff people. 250 will lose their jobs as opposed to 50 from Qantas.

[Boeing buster]

Ampclamp
Based on conversations with ex MEL Heavy guys, I had the impression that the company was prepared to make a token gesture of 10 to 15 MEL line positions. After that when they realized only a few were prepared to move to BNE they deliberately limited / delayed redeployment options.
I believe in the end it came down BNE and be grateful or P-SSS O-F despite other options being available. Apparently the Manager bestowed much praise on his wonderful HR people for the job they did in pushing staff to BNE. Hope the AVA people are better looked after.

[AEROMEDIC]

One hopes you learn other stuff, particularly aviation safety related things, more quickly than you learn your misconception about shareholdings is incorrect. I've posted about this at least half a dozen times.



Romulus,

I did ponder for a moment when I read your last post on this thread as to whether it was worth a reply.
Yep, it was.

This must irritate you Romulus, that you have to remind someone in such a patronising manner about the nature of shareholder voting in a large Australian company. No I didn't read your posts on this, but I DID go back to check what you did say, and the tone was quite different to the last.

As to my post, I erred in inadvertently excluding a sentence which changes the context entirely, which is "So these shares under the control of the investment managers wield very significant power when AGM's come around."
In hindsight, I might have put even that differently, but they were the words I thought I'd included.

What I will do is to clarify that the nominees company shareholding is indeed non voting, and held on behalf of it's client the superannuation trustee.Nominees, of course, have proxy duties. However,the common practice is to use a contract of agreement between the superannuation trustee, the nominee company and the investment manager to implement this. This provides instructions to the nominees,amongst other duties, to lodge proxy votes at AGM's Extraordinaries, etc. on behalf of the investors i.e. Superannuation Funds whose trustee has given instructions about the proxy. In the absence of such instructions, the investment manager may exercise the right to vote as they please (through the nominee, but within the guidelines set by the trustee) whether for,against,abstain or discretionary.
Of course, such instructions are formed through investment company boards and they DO talk with each other, and this assists with the aggregation of proxies.
I included the approximate holdings to illustrate the depth of the voting power.
The issue though,and it WAS my point, is that I believe the large investment managers continue to support this board and it's decision making that has provided no benefit to the shareholders in recent years, let alone treat the employees (or contractor employees) reasonably.

As to the other comments, you can be sure that my efforts in the past to improve and maintain safety and quality is something of which I can be proud.

One hopes that in future, you can demonstrate a tad more tolerance on the next occasion and stick to the thread.

The "UNLIKE" has just been pressed.

[Romulus]

No worries Aero, it appears the application of 2x4 methodology has worked.

[going down-under]

BrissySparkyCoit:
Flat out in Brissy. Around 2000hrs overtime / week being worked. That equates to aprox. 280 staff short

H3 flat out? Not so much.
H2 flat out; yes,...for the moment. A 100 odd men (all trades) still don't know what will happen after February. It will remain busy but for how long. In the mean time less and less a/c in H3 (definitely less 767's), dual type LAME's (737/A330) can fill in the gaps in H2

[Jethro Gibbs]

Geelong Advertiser 12/11/13
Avalon Airport CEO Justin Giddings is upbeat and remains on track with six empty hangars and numerous other buildings onsite empty comprising of thousands of square metres of floorspace . Upbeat ! Really :ugh::mad:

[Flying Trades Person]

Does this mean something GOOD could possibly happen ?:D




Jethro this was a tongue in check comment.


Jethro looking down a bit your comment on being Military what the hell do you think AVV was in the first place MILITARY for 40+ years.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Does this mean something GOOD could possibly happen

What do you think come back to the real world .:ugh:

[500N]

Jethro

Re Upbeat, it was interesting listening to his interview on 774 the other day.

He was also asked about SLF having dropped from 1 million to 600,000
and going down.

[Jethro Gibbs]

He also mentioned it could become a base for Military Aircraft or Search and Rescue the poor mans been out in the sun . Dreamer:ugh:

[ConcernedLAME]

Going Down under- you obviously work in H2 !

H3 BNE is very busy at the moment , next Feb A330 C8 checks begin with highly likely prospect of A330 reconfigs beginning next year . From all reports there will be a lul in work mid year , however work will ramp up last quarter of year.

Lots of contractors with QF LAMES and AMES / Workhops working their ass off - that doesn't mean sitting in an office all shift either .

Anybody wanting to move from Avalon thinking it is a cruise like Avalon was - think again . Very different work ethic and mostly motivated group of people wanting to see the place succeed in our eyes and the company's .

What I don't understand is why do Forstaff expect any support any from QF - in the real world contractors are disposable labour . Pure and simple , as far as Im concerned you guys did pretty damn well out of QF , now the reality that Avalon is a temp facility , everyone is crying poor me .

I know that sounds harsh but it is reality .

If given the opportunity to move to BNE , consider it - great place to work and play. Great schools and weather . But be prepared to work .

Those of you who have been in the industry for a long time need to lead the way - adapt or die . It's an unfortunate truth .

CL

[Engineer_aus]

Well said CL.

[Flying Trades Person]

Jetrhro it is alright for you we are the ones hoping to get work.:=

[Jethro Gibbs]

FTP There is no work the Avalon CEO has Nothing but soon to be 6 empty hangars and various other buildings he is a dreamer and thats a fact .

[Boeing buster]

Expressions of interest can be lodged today according to intranet website. Can anyone tell me what options are being put forward to express an interest in ?

[Boeing buster]

Jethro
The Avalon CEO will bulldoze those 6 empty hangers for a crocodile farm if there's a buck in it. The Fox family don't give a flying fu-k about you, Qantas or Aviation they just want to make money out of their very cheap asset which they have done very well up to now.
I am sure Gidding's will continue to attract attention to the facility by whatever absurd means he has. It was always a better option going forward as an airport than a maintenance base in my view.
What are your options? Will you seek redeployment or take the payout

[Jethro Gibbs]

BB I agree with you one of the latest JG was talking about was aTheme park for christ sake the place will be empty for years everytime he is in the local paper talking some crap up it gives false hope to the uniformed people of Geelong .

[Boeing buster]

Jethro
Fair enough point about the aspect of JG giving false hope to those less informed about the real story.
I believe in Mel the guys were given a list of options to order from 1 to 5. How are they handling it at Avalon. Are they offering any real redeployment options such MEL line or Bris Vegas.
Is any one offering options to the Forstaff employees apart from redundancy.
Best wishes
Boeing Buster

[Jethro Gibbs]

Is any one offering options to the Forstaff employees apart from redundancy.
Forstaff No .
Qantas Staff who knows they eat there own Video: Avalon workers carry burden of not knowing (http://video.news.com.au/v/35812/Avalon-workers-carry-burden-of-not-knowing) He was sacked and in a letter to the Geelong Advertiser days ago said this was the plan all along changed his song since being sacked.

[BrissySparkyCoit]

That is the unfortunate reality of contract labour.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Justin Giddings latest tuesday 19/11 Avalon could be a motorsport venue .
Here we go again I have now lost count how many times this has been wheeled out . Dreamer

[500N]

That would be a severe waste of great open space when plenty of other open space exists nearby if a similar complex was required.

[Gas Bags]

Jethro I appreciate the situation you are in having been in it myself on more than one occasion.....however....Coming on here and venting/blaming everyone under the sun wont improve your lot. The only one who can do that is you. You work/worked for Forstaff. WTF have Qantas got to do with you. You should be talking to Forstaff. Qantas dont owe you a thing. Wake up smell the roses and look after yourself.......trust me, no one else will!

Harsh words I know but reality bites. Move with the goal posts or disappear.

[Flying Trades Person]

Now that video is about 2 years old no longer does H6 operate?

[Flying Trades Person]

Jethro, JG should have kept his Gardening job and maybe he would have not been sprouting the crazy ideas.

[Flying Trades Person]

Gas Bags guess we know your alliance hey.


Forstaff only gets the order from the main Company (Quant a**e) so I guess it has everything to do with them.

[Bagus]

If u read Avalon connection Facebook about Qantas engineer feeling about the company,it is a sad story.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Now that video is about 2 years old no longer does H6 operate?




FTP point of the video was he was a golden boy of Qantas defending them but his Qantas mates knifed him quick smart to save there own arse .

[Boeing buster]

Jethro
Am I right to suggest the. Golden boy you posted about earlier was turned on by his qantas brothers when he returned to work after a period of ill health?

[Flying Trades Person]

Jethro OK missed the point sorry.

[Boeing buster]

I here there are still people in various ports around the network looking for redundancy. If this is the case are QF offering relocation packages to the 50 odd Avalon Lame's ? I know the number of Mel staff who were able to shift was pretty low for all the obvious reasons. I assume the same applies here.
Interesting to see the AVA transformation web page seeking EOI's for transfer, yet no enquiries from HR to other ports concerning VR. Why am I not surprised.
The company attitude seems to be every Lame I relocate now is just one more I have to sack latter. At least with MEL they were trying to manipulate people into Brissy and opened a few jobs on line as a token gesture.

[Jethro Gibbs]

Avalon.
So the usual suspects have managed to do a deal where they stay on until around June to close the place up and as usual no one else knew about it or was asked to apply for this tidy little deal .

[Flying Trades Person]

MMM snouts in the trough?

[empire4]

Jethro, WHY THE HELL DO YOU WANT TO STAY? oh, stay on the ship until it sinks. This is not Titanic mate, this is LIFE. I don't fell sorry one bit for people who sit on their ass, hand out an say poor me. The place is closing. get over it. Move on, go find another job. Aviation is screwed, and being last out the door is not going to help you one bit.

Bad luck.

[Flying Trades Person]

Empire I believe if they just go now no package, you may be in a position to just walk but a lot have been there over ten years and cannot just turn there back on this amount of moola. So butt out with your bl***y comments unless you know all facts buddy.




Woops maybe no dough left, sh*t now it does look dire.

[Flying Trades Person]

A couple of weeks go by and no one is interested in jobs loss here.???


ALANS NOT HAPPY it has taken the headline oh well suppose it is something, dejected and lost.

[Jethro Gibbs]

FTP your right lasts about 1/2 day in the news whole lot of talk about help and retraining and then f#$ k all .

[buttmonkey1]

why not wait for the CR mitigation program.
I think there would be several lmoqld spots for 747, a330, ng types.
best of luck to all involved in this debacle.

[empire4]

FTP, my worry all the long and the reason I've said to leave. Forstaff Aviation is a separate company. How do they pay all the redundancy payments? You think QF will pay in their current shape? NO. Forstaff could essentially go bankrupt. Sadly the public nor the government will not care about 250 people that don't get the money owed to them.

Its a big gamble. I'd be nervous if I still worked for Forstaff.

[Flying Trades Person]

Empire4 sorry about the attack on your post a bit worried here and lashed out.