Navigating over a gliding site

[Lagentium]

I've been asked to plan a route which includes a turning point over Sutton Bank gliding site, I've checked my chart and they launch unto 3000ft, I know I'm in my rights to fly above it or would I be a complete idiot to do so?:=

Thanks in advance Gents

[mary meagher]

Okay, who asked you to plan a route over Sutton Bank? why?

I would go back to that particular person and say I prefer to avoid active gliding sites, I am not a glider pilot, and do not understand their requirements or activities. Why not vector me over an active military danger area instead? there's less likely to be any activity!

Though of course if it is pissing down with rain, or fog, and you are IMC qualified, you may be able to fly at an MSA to avoid the interesting folds of the landscape in that vicinity, and not be upset by any of the challenging wave activity that can be found downwind of the uplands....

Sutton Bank is an active gliding site. Trouble with your average spamcan pilot is he or she is typically spending more time looking inside the cockpit than out, navigating with the latest gadgets, monitoring the gauges, talking on the radio, changing frequencies, and making sure the skid ball is in the middle. The average glider pilot on a good day is to be found in gaggles, under streets of cumulus, dolphining to use best lift. And some distance away from the gliding site. On a not very good day, the average local glider pilot will be working the ridge to stay airborne, following the rules of ridge soaring. Are you acquainted with these practices?

Best of all, before you decide on your cross country flight, why not visit Sutton Bank by road, they are really nice people, and have yourself a glider lesson. It can do no harm, and may indeed broaden your horizons.

[Blink182]

I suggest that you make a visit on the ground and discuss this with the Gliding fraternity.......... Sutton Bank have all types of Lift ( Thermal, Ridge and Wave) and I think they do operate every day throughout the year........

Personally, I would avoid it completely unless the weather was CAVOK and wind s were less than 5 knots........even then I would overfly well above 3000 feet.

[B4aeros]

Completely legal to fly over but probably sensible to avoid - I suspect that your instructor is testing your airmanship & flight planning skills.

[RTN11]

As above. I often ask students to plan a straight line route to overfly an active glider site just to see if they have the sense to question what that actually is and take the action to plan around it. If you turn up to the flight planned to fly around the glider site, you can't go wrong.

[BillieBob]

I often ask students to plan a straight line route to overfly an active glider site....No problem with that, or with overflying at a sensible level but, in this case, the OP has been asked to plan a turning point over an active glider site, and a particularly active one at that. I can see no instructional benefit in setting this particular task and would suggest that it is the instructor who is the 'complete idiot' and not the OP.

[mikehallam]

Surely if the gliding site actually has a passing height on the charts it's almost better to transit centrally overhead and avoid them that way ?
Otherwise why bother with any height - or 'ATZ' ?

Going to one side or the other, IMHO, even outside the circle on the chart offers a greater risk of intercepting glider(s) departing or returning. Overhead at the right height is acceptable over airfields

As for the implication above that motorised pilots don't look out enough, especially when poor glider pilots are apparently too busy themselves to ditto ? Well I ask you.

All pilots must keep a good and frequent scan look out, regardless of what a/c they happen to be in.

mike hallam.

[GeeWhizz]

One more option for flying through/over a gliding site is to find their frequency and give them a call. You'll soon find out how they're feeling about transit traffic, and whether you can negotiate passage through. Otherwise I'd stay well clear for my own safety! Having flown gliders a while ago, I remember going solo after about 3 hours roughly (about 6-7 dual aerotows) along with the rest of our group. Not sure I'd had the ability to deal with a rogue powered type.

[overun]

lt is difficult to stomach what has been said about gliding sites on this forum.
Fly through, around, the wire with the little parachute on is best avoided, any gliding site that would actively restrict activity needs bombing.
l speak as an instructor with a little more 10,000 instructional flights from years ago.
lf we can`t open the airways, which was the ambition for years, then we really ought to shut up on restricting others.

lt would be unfair.

The bottom line of course is does the site have an ATZ ?

Act accordingly.

Exercise your legal rights my friend, or else you will lose them.

[Sky blue and black]

I suggest that you read the AIC Y083/11 available on NATS | AIS (http://www.ais.org.uk)

[jollyrog]

Just say no.

Winch cable -v- Spamcan? The winch cable will win.

Glider -v- Spamcan? Glider pilots wear parachutes.

[GeeWhizz]

Fly through, around, the wire with the little parachute on is best avoided, any gliding site that would actively restrict activity needs bombing.


Glider -v- Spamcan? Glider pilots wear parachutes.


These gave me a well needed chuckle first thing on a miserable Saturday morning :D

Having read the paragraph on how close gliders may fly to each other in the AIC reminded me of a recent trip in the clubs 172...

It was a Saturday afternoon and the weather was geared toward gliding. On passing Milton Keynes at 2400ft the FISO gave us the warning that there was vast quanitites of gliding activity all over the place. Wide eyed we continued along our route.

Not more than 5 minutes later we saw 4 gliders on the nose thermalling from approx 1000ft below to 1000ft above some 8 miles ahead. Noise abatement (along with something to do with rights of way and rules of the air) suggested that we alter our course. Out to the right was free from traffic. Upon looking left and slightly rearward I found 2 of the damn things tagging along in a loose line-astern formation; both pilots greeting my discovery with a friendly wave! A brief wing-rock in return, then a turn to the right was made in good time before tangoing with a thermal stack.

Oh to reminisce ;)

[mary meagher]

Mike Hallum and GeeWhiz, couple of the points you raise need further thought on the part of the intrepid cross country power pilot.

First, calling the gliding ground frequency will probably get no answer at all. They don't work on radio, chaps. If a glider has to land back at the airfield, he has to land, so no point asking permission. Result, if the lift peters out, everybody comes back at once, and they avoid each other by lookout and good judgement, not by talking on the radio. Few gliding clubs have somebody sitting at the launchpoint to listen out and very very few gliding clubs are entitled to control traffic. So just because nobody answers your call doesn't mean they are not active.

As for flying overhead to clear potential winch launch cables, o my. Sure, our Skylaunch can lob us up to l,800 feet on a good day, so what do we do next? if we are lucky enough to connect with a thermal, we keep on going up. And up and up, to cloudbase. Directly over the airfield. So depending on conditions, a gliding site like Lasham for instance, will have gliders swarming overhead from the top of the launch to the controlled airspace!

Still think its safe to proceed after a radio call? and still think its safe to fly directly overhead?

Yes, exercise your legal rights, by all means. But if you have no gliding experience or understanding of their peculiar habits, please keep a very good lookout in all uncontrolled airspace, and use judgement when planning your flight. Probably the best plan is to fly above any fair weather cumulus. Less bumpy, fewer gliders.

[GeeWhizz]

First, calling the gliding ground frequency will probably get no answer at all.


I've flown gliders from Hullavington and Halton on winch and aerotow, both of which have had someone with a radio operators certificate and radio equipment either handheld or base station. I've found many gliding sites that have some kind of radio comms, not for issuing landing clearances to gliders(!) but for the purpose of advising overhead transits of gliding activity.

I fly from a small airfield where the radio operator is not always present; in this instance pilots sometimes provide arriving traffic with a runway, pressures, and approxmate surface wind from their own departure (of course all taken in an advisory manner, but still helpful).

Personally I would not recommend flying over or too near to gliding sites and actively avoid them myself, but. If there is a telephone or frequency conversation that can be had to increase safety and provide a safe transit, why not? Also there are some gliding sites that sit between low altitude CAS and danger areas active to flight level nosebleed. Should the powered pilot not be able to fly in or above cloud this could get sticky. I'm sure a little diplomacy and understanding are all that's needed. Its open FIR, share and share alike. :cool:

[Jim59]

The bottom line of course is does the site have an ATZ ?


No it's not. The rules of the air require pilots to either remain clear of, or conform to, the traffic pattern at all airfields regardless of whether they have an ATZ.

The CAA has highlighted this recently in relation to the many airfields that are no longer licensed but still active.

The traffic pattern of a winch launch glider site can extend to the maximum authorised launch height at that site.

Regarding lookout - there is a greater onus on the power pilot to look out because he/she is required to give way to gliders. (That should get a few responses!)

[justmaybe]

"I know I'm in my rights to fly above it or would I be a complete idiot to do so?"
With 'rights' go commonsense and responsibility. It might be alright to use this site as a turning point, but is it the most practical option? You could make an r/t call to check activity etc, but ultimately why plan to increase your workload?
Not quite sure what the nav learning would be from this element of the exercise.

[GeeWhizz]

Not quite sure what the nav learning would be from this element of the exercise.


Good point, but there are now 18 posts on this thread, so it's definately a discussion point and thought provoking as to the practicality of GS overflight; not just for students either.


I suspect that your instructor is testing your airmanship & flight planning skills.


Damn those insructors attempting to increase our airmanship:D

[BackPacker]

Probably the best plan is to fly above any fair weather cumulus. Less bumpy, fewer gliders.

Just wanted to repeat that cause I think it's the most important advice here, other than avoiding a gliding site altogether.

In a glider it's very hard to climb in any kind of thermal above the first layer of fair weather cumulus. You'd have to go IMC (in the cumulus itself), or be launched (either by tug or winch) above it. So by flying above the first cumulus-layer, you are pretty safe from gliding activity. Not entirely, but I dare say 99% of the gliding activity will be below that first layer.

Exception of course is when there's ridge or wave lift. Particularly in wave fantastic heights can be achieved.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

still think its safe to fly directly overhead?
Last time I asked this question, about overflying a glider site at a planned 6,000' or so, I seem to recall that the answer was that there was no particular reason not to do so as the gliders could be anywhere by the time they'd got to that height, so I'd be just as likely to meet them if I planned to avoid the overhead by any particular distance.

[ShyTorque]

BGA and Ramblers association (or just "Ramblers" as they now call themselves).

Funny how you never see both in the same room... :E

[Lagentium]

Thanks for the advice everyone, today I rang Sutton Bank and had a chat with an instructor there to voice my concerns, he said all was well as they have many people flying over, I was given their A/G frequency, and will ring beforehand to see which runway is in use and what area they are active in

Cheers, Jim

[overun]

l suspect a little something is missing there.

" upper heyford, this is glider xxx, my intention is to pass to the north west on my way to xxx".

What is your altitude, Sir ?

"3000 ft decending"

Stop your decent, and turn right 45 deg.

"unable"

Look out to the right, and tell me your intentions.

Four F1-11`s, configured for landing.

A final glide to Bidford, and a tow home.

lf the law allows, use it. Once gone never ever recovered.

[MIKECR]

And judging by some of the comments it just go's to prove why power pilots who know nothing about gliding or nothing about weather should never go near an active glider site unless there life depends on it. Been involved in both gliding as well as power flying for over 20 years now and some things never cease to amaze.

[Opsbeatch]

As far as I know it, the law doesn't prevent you to go swimming with sharks wearing a sirloin steak swim suit...tempted?

Glider turning = Easy to see
Glider head-on = Almost invisible

OK to fly over as long as you know the risks and have a head on a 360 degree turntable! The sky is a big place but why make it smaller by going into known areas of intense activity?

OB

[pitofrost]

Having spent a couple of years driving a 4X4 with almost a kilometer of steel cable attached from the winch to the launch point I never fly my spam can anywhere near a glider site….

On my skills test I was asked to plan a route that, funnily enough, went straight over the top of an active parachute-dropping site. I told my examiner that I’d call them up and unless I got active confirmation that they were not dropping I’d do a diversion around. I think I heard the sound of a tick being made in my examiners head. Perhaps your instructor is giving a little hint?

[Momoe]

FWIW, the military have an active policy of avoiding gliding sites, although all the FW assets can easily overfly by a huge margin.
I've been at the Long Mynd in Shropshire when a gaggle of Hawks came over at 300ft and pulled bl##dy hard when they realised they were over a gliding site, a quiet word sufficed as they are normally quite good at avoiding the site.
One other thing to consider about gliders is that if the thermal is still going at cloudbase, some gliders will enter cloud until the thermal peters out and then pop out of the cloud.

If the military see fit to avoid gliding sites, it's just not worth introducing the extra element of risk. BTW Long Mynd gliders generally have radio which is used to good effect with traffic out of Welshpool which is relatively close.

[englishal]

There are "active gliding sites" then there are "gliding sites on the chart". Some of them you don't see a glider on the field even when you fly over. Some you see lots in the air.

I wouldn't NOT fly over one, I'd just be extremely cautious and make sure I am above any cables, and it also depends on the weather. If it is not good gliding weather then you might not see a single glider. If it is perfect weather, you might see lots.

Just keep a good lookout.

Trouble with your average spamcan pilot is he or she is typically spending more time looking inside the cockpit than out, navigating with the latest gadgets,

Got an evidence for that? I like to look out AND use gadgets.

[Momoe]

Define good gliding weather?
Even if there is no wind, wave or thermal activity, winching still gets you up to 1400-1800ft which gives enough scope for training, all said and done even though you CAN fly above the site why not simply navigate round it as it reduces the percentages.

Apart from that, imagine the AAIB report, Pilot X chose to route over a known gliding site where the mid-air occurred. It's like drinking a pint then driving, not illegal but when the report says the driver had been drinking but was under the limit, you're damned.

[overun]

Momoe,
well, if one is on nodding terms with the winch driver, well over 3000ft is easily possible on the right day.
Any point in discussing the rights, and whatever, with people of less than 100 launches ?

Pointless.

For those of an aviation bent, use it or lose it.

( for the power guys, the cable will be directly downwind )