PVRs started.....

[3 bladed beast]

3 Tri-Star pilots have Pvr'd and several Herc guys too.

C-17 guys have quite clearly had enough given the constant tasking.

Many Vc10 mates have spent around 6 weeks 'not on Det' this year to date.

And more cuts yet to happen.

At least there is end in sight in Afghanistan and Libya.....:=

The exodus begins!!

[Widger]

They are the clever ones. Getting out before the rush.

I predict that within 18 months there will be a manning crisis within all three services. Not bums on seats but a complete vacuum of anyone with any experience or competence. All well and good recruiting pilots but if you have no QFIs......................add/delete/annotate for service/trade/arm.

[Melchett01]

From a manning perspective, it's the perfect storm.

Many are being thrashed to death and don't have time to consider the bigger picture about careers, pensions etc and are fed up of wives, children and loved ones wondering who the strange man trudging in through the front door every few weeks is.

Those that aren't being thrashed quite so hard and do have a shred of spare capacity to consider the broader implications of current life in the services don't like what they see. Political indifference and mouth music, cuts cuts and more cuts (and that's when we're at war .... what will happen whe we are not?) pensions being trashed, potentially significant tax bills if you some how get promotion and the prospect of rejoining the thrashing once their 'respite tout is over.

It's hard to see how we are going to stop this one; not so much a service on the buffet to be sorted with a timely stall recovery, I think the wings are about to fall off.

[sidewayspeak]

There will be alot more to come when they have finished with the redundancies fiasco. Many are waiting to see if they can go with the additional cash buffer and are busy organising their lives to go. If that option isn't available, then they will go anyway.

I remember back in the 80s when Thatcher had to give us a 15% pay rise to retain/recruit. I can see that coming again in the nest few years when they realise what they have done to the forces morale and desire to stay in the job.

[Jambo Jet]

Heard it all before guys!

It's just the perpetual sine wave, ebbing and flowing. Manning want you to leave, they're trying to reduce numbers.

Yep, it may be the case in 2 or 3 years there are a shortfall of skills, but then there will be FRIs or people who have left will realise that life is not so rosy on the other side and perhaps rejoin. Ebb and Flow, comes and gos.

[Trogger]

If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have signed up....

[VinRouge]

Good luck to all those chosing greener fields.

[dallas]

Manning want you to leave, they're trying to reduce numbers.Maybe, but I'll bet you 50p nobody has got as far as the 'how to turn off the exodus' plan. The difference I can see from years gone by is I don't think money alone is the fix - nor the push factor - it's quality of life which has been the erroded left, right and centre and that's a complicated and subjective mixture that beancounters have never been able to measure and will find very hard to repair.

[StopStart]

Good luck to all those chosing greener fields.

Cheers! :ok:

[3 bladed beast]

Dallas/VinRouge - spot on.

Quality of life has long gone and watching loved ones try to accept that you are forever walking out the door for another unknown period of time has become unbearable.

David Cameron is completely out of touch with the ability of our minimal Armed Forces and he can no longer rely on guys 'giving their all and getting the job done' which has got us through recent years.

[The Old Fat One]

Good luck to all those chosing greener fields.


I guess those that have had enough will foxtrot oscar...I have my doubts that it will become a deluge, but lets not bicker over it.

However..for those pilots that are going because of quality of life issues have a pop over to the Terms and Conditions forum and/or the Wannabees Forum. It makes for pretty grim reading.

Maybe you leave the mob but do something other than fly for a living...just a thought.

For those that are not pilots...please make sure you have developed some marketable skills sets for when you pull the handle. Unemployment may seem stable at the moment but that is primarily because of the massive increase in part time and minimum wage jobs...decent, well paid jobs are very few and far between.

Quality of life will really suck when your ATM card gets spit out with nae money.....

[Really annoyed]

I think the wings are about to fall off.

Or in your case melchett a pen lid. Will you manage to get a job outside? Is there a demand right now for typists?

[jpboy]

Former Colleagues,

May I pass on some cheery thoughts in these gloomy times?

BA are recruiting allbeit type rated and BA managed path for the minute.
Virgin are recruiting allbeit a trickle at the moment.
Cathay are recruiting.
Emirates are recruiting.
Jet2 are soon to be recruiting.
Easyjet are allegedly recruiting SFO's soon (Employment Fair banter Cranwell).
Thomson are asking for internal volunteers to set up their recruiting team with an eye to next year.

Worldwide there is a pilot shortage across the Middle East, India, China and the demographics indicate the States are to follow, Delta supposedly have 7000 retiring next year.

For all of you choosing or being forced to leave the indications are that there will be jobs for you in the civil sector.

For all of you staying I hope you will get the aircraft you need and the support you deserve from a Government asking you to perform in the finest traditions of a great Service in increasingly difficult times.

Good luck to you all.

[Melchett01]

Not that I can type very well, but that's not such an issue when I have people to do my typing for me. However, I suspect that I'll somehow manage to muddle through Really.

Might have to cut down to one bottle of Pol Roger a day though, but needs must when times are tight.

What are you plans Really? I hear things are still quite peachy in the Girl Guides - must explain your sunny disposition and positive outlook on life compared to the reality of life on the ops side of the RAF

[Really annoyed]

to the reality of life on the ops side of the RAF I guess it must be tough for you in your air conditioned portakabin flicking elastic bands at your typist all day.

[ralphmalph]

I suppose the real litmus test will come next year when the "pay freeze" is lifted....lets see what happens then?

I remember my father serving in the RAF in the late 70's and getting a massive pay rise when Maggie came into power. Apart from a bit of NI SH action things were fairly quiet......what on earth can you do when everyone is ballbagged from Ops in 2 then 1 theatres for the last 8 years!? No money will solve that!

Anyway, what is the shortest time you can leave the service from a flying job at the moment?

Regards

Ralph

[Uncle Ginsters]

They are the clever ones. Getting out before the rush.

Nah, surely the last guy left who gets to be a Fg Off Chief of the Air Staff wins hands down!:D:D

I think the rush has been noticed - hence the rumours of 18-month PVR times now as an initial way to buy time before manning can find another finger to stick in the dyke (oo-er :p)

[Rigga]

TOFO's scary talk is just scary talk.
Many people who leave the services (whatever trade or rank) have a really good set of transferable skills topped by a good work ethic and the stable platform of an ability to turn up to work even when their toes have an annoying itch.

Okay, I left with some CAA A&C Licences, but I never really needed them, moving into management and consultancy quite soon after leaving. I left as a Sgt Rigga. I have no management qualifications and no specialist qualifications yet here I am running my own dept and plans affecting up to 200 engineers and a lot of aircraft.

Remember that its not what you did in the Services that counts towards a lot of jobs - its what you bring to the job that counts.

[Kengineer-130]

I think the PM's comments today were disgraceful, and just shows the contempt in which the government hold the armed forces :mad:.. I left the RAF a couple of months ago, I cannot think of any reason I would ever rejoin, and most of the people I worked with are looking for a way out, from LAC to officers.

[Rick777]

I saw this sine wave a couple of times in the USAF. Ironically when the AF was trying to get rid of guys the airlines were usually hiring. The good news for the guys that stay is that life can get much better in a hurry when the powers that be finally realize that they don't have enough people to run the show.

[Biggus]

ralphmalph,

Reference

"I suppose the real litmus test will come next year when the "pay freeze" is lifted....lets see what happens then?"

It's a two year pay free, so the next pay increase will be in April 2013!



Rick777

Unfortunately in the RAF when they realise they have not got enough people they just throw money at selected individuals to stay in. Changes in terms and conditions take too long to impliment, probably have to be put in place across multiple trades, and cost money, and the organization is now too lean to provide rest tours for individuals..... No postings to Hawaii for us :{

[Thud Ridge]

Anyone got any more actual figures of how many are walking? or is it just a lot of people talking about it.

[VinRouge]

Its not the numbers that are the problem perse. Its the experience levels that will be the problem. The last generation of pilots that have done stuff outside of Herrick and Telic are queueing for the exits.

Its going to be interesting to see how the levels of experience dilution we are seeing are going to be dealt with. Oh, and its not just an issue for the pilot fraternity. The engineering world is pretty threadders with their lot with some of the obscene sums of money on offer globally for less responsibility.

[NutLoose]

Look on the bright side, it might ease some of the married quater issues mentioned elsewhere for Brize :suspect:

[Blacksheep]

The good news for the guys that stay is that life can get much better in a hurry when the powers that be finally realize that they don't have enough people to run the show. The political objective is disarmament. The US President has committed to a set withdrawal date for Afghanistan and when the Yanks leave, we'll have to leave too. With no wars on the go we won't be needing many boots, so the "defence" of the nation will rest on those few who happen to remain after some more massive redundancies - who by definition will be just enough to man Horse Guards Parade on the Queen's birthday and fly three old WW2 aircraft over Buckingham Palace. :rolleyes:

[Solent Trout]

Anyone got any more actual figures of how many are walking? or is it just a lot of people talking about it.

I know of at least 5 PVRs from the airbase formerly known as Lyneham and at least one taking their 12 year option.

Hopefully there will be a 12 year option FRI soon, to give another 5 years service like there has been in the past.....

[VinRouge]

Thing is, if you do the sums, its not financially worth it (other than to seriously dent the mortgage).

Every sum I do comes to the same conclusion; if you are deciding based solely on money, walking after your 6 year ROS is the only way. Every year delayed is a years captaincy pay (http://www.2beapilot.co.uk/pilotpay.htm)with the airlines toward the end of your career that you are cheating yourself of.

Which means they are going to have to do something a lot more difficult than throwing cash at the problem. They are going to have to make individuals actually want to stay.

[Chugalug2]

VinRouge:
Every year delayed is a years captaincy pay with the airlines you are cheating yourself of.
Know what you mean VR, but would prefer to substitute the word "Seniority" for "Captaincy Pay". A subtly different but all important concept. Seniority rules all in the Airlines. From your point of view it amounts to even greater urgency. Every day delayed is a day's seniority less. A single day lost could cost you years of "Captaincy Pay"!

[VinRouge]

Oh, its not my point of view. But unless something changes, and soon, its going to become my, and others view imho.

[wokkamate]

17 Pilot and Crewman PVRs at Odiham........the flood gates are opening! On the flip side, Frenchie has written a nice little book about what the Chinny Force get up to in AFG, tres readable.

:cool:

[Willard Whyte]

Given that the post-SDSR briefs all had the number of pilots at circa 100% manning come 2015 it looks as though the RAF will need to start a recruitment drive pretty damn soon.

[FlapJackMuncher]

Playing the Devil's Advocate card:
If those who are left don't have as much experience as those who have just left, then they soon will.

I thought there used to be complaints about lack of flying hours, due to fuel/ secondary costs etc. Now there are complaints about too many.

Tangent wave anyone?

[StopStart]

Depends what you want experience in really doesn't it. There's a big difference between 2000 hours or 1 hour flown 2000 times.

[LFFC]

Airline pilot shortage facing UK, union Balpa warns (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11691204)- 4 Nov 10

This is about 6 months old, but I'm told that the only real change is to this extract:

Pilot Martin Alder, a Balpa member, told the BBC there was a need for about 400 new pilots a year in the UK

I understand that, for the next few years, that figure should be far higher!

[jpboy]

Know what you mean VR, but would prefer to substitute the word "Seniority" for "Captaincy Pay". A subtly different but all important concept. Seniority rules all in the Airlines. From your point of view it amounts to even greater urgency. Every day delayed is a day's seniority less. A single day lost could cost you years of "Captaincy Pay"!

Chugalug2, seniority rules in most but not all airlines. Jet2 promote on merit, if you have the hours you will be boarded and those who are deemed most suitable are selected for Command Trg.

Minor thread creep as your point is well made for most airline outfits.

[Finningley Boy]

My understanding of all this is, that there is indeed a respectable amount of money spent on defence by comparison. What I find difficult to grasp is, where does it all go now? When I left in 1990, we still got 4 travel warrants a year, we had nearly four times the number of combat aircraft and it was also the era of accommodation renovation throughout the R.A.F Add to this the comparative size of the other two services and the cost of running all this, it is of some curiosity to me that we can spend as much as we do and have so little in the way of people and assets. Especially when so much is no longer provided for out of the defence budget. I understand thegreater amount of spending on defence in 1990, but it wasn't that much greater. From 1990-1994 average UK defence expenditure was 3.8% of GDP. IN 2008-2009 it was 2.5%.

To put matters further in pespective, the figures from the Commons Library say that defence expenditure for 2008/9 was £36,400,000,000. At 2008/9 prices, the hard cash amount spent in 1989/90 was no more than £36,000,000,000. The actual amount spent at 1989/90 was; £20,800,000,000.

I'm truly puzzled, unless of course, the 2008/9 figure includes the capital spending on Iraq, Afghanistan etc!?:confused:

FB:)

[Chugalug2]

Not thread creep at all, jpboy, but vital info for those poised to fly the nest. Personally I PVR'd so long ago that scarcely anything that pertained then does so now, I fear. I do remember the big culture shock of "civvy street" and the brutal logic of the seniority system. Kudos to Jet2 for being different, though I risk the damnation of the brotherhood for saying so!
As to forecast pilot shortages, LFFC, exactly the same was stated when I left. Then the 6 day Arab/Israeli war happened! Luckily I had just clambered aboard Dan-Air, who promptly pulled up the the drawbridge behind me. Which brings us to the most important qualification of all, luck! You can plan and you can plot as much as you like, but if you ain't lucky it won't happen. So, feeling lucky? Well are you?

[Vim_Fuego]

TOFO's scary talk is just scary talk.
Many people who leave the services (whatever trade or rank) have a really good set of transferable skills topped by a good work ethic and the stable platform of an ability to turn up to work even when their toes have an annoying itch.

Okay, I left with some CAA A&C Licences, but I never really needed them, moving into management and consultancy quite soon after leaving. I left as a Sgt Rigga. I have no management qualifications and no specialist qualifications yet here I am running my own dept and plans affecting up to 200 engineers and a lot of aircraft.

Remember that its not what you did in the Services that counts towards a lot of jobs - its what you bring to the job that counts.

Agreed...with a modicum of application I have made a comfortable transition into the civilian world...I used connections made in the mob (be nice to all you meet as you never know just how useful they may prove) to get my foot in the door, sent in one CV, attended one interview mit presentation and got one phonecall saying 'well done...when can you start'. Not at any time was I directly asked about my qualifications...it was as though my background held credibility and that was enough for them. Riggas last point is very true from my observations...For the past few weeks I've felt a bit like a fish in a goldfish bowl on a pedastal as my new colleagues watch for me to spring ninja like into action and do something 'amazing' in terms of leadership and motivation! Obviously it would have been churlish to disappoint...;)

Anyway I now know we undersell ourselves...comparable wages and in fact higher are out there if you market yourselves correctly and have an exit plan...

Good luck to all.

[Corporal Clott]

Pilot PVR time below OF-3 is now 12 months with immediate effect - see latest IBN.

That's improved rock bottom morale no end!

:mad:

[Dr Schlong]

I don't see what the problem is.

People leave and are replaced by the next generation...we've got plenty of pilots coming through the system. Wait a second...oh no, that's right - a large chunk of them got laid off...is it too late to reverse that decision?

[VinRouge]

Why would they come back? The civvie market is picking up and they have redundancy burning a hole in their back pocket.

Together with 300 million in flying training investment. :ugh:

[Widger]

Well, I gave back my schilling over a month ago after over a quarter of a century in service. Virtually everyone I spoke to, with a few exceptions, was envious of my decision to leave and were considering it themselves. Reasons for staying ranged from being 'afraid' to being stuck in the CEA trap and having to stay in a few more years to see their sprogs through boarding school.

I have never seen things so bad and there are those posting on here that say, oh well, leave, the grass is not greener. Like many of the management, they have fingers in their ears and are saying 'la, la, la, I'm not listening!'

This will be worse than the 1990s, with three tranches of redundancy hanging over them, people are already in the leaving mindset. There was probably an aspiration for a managed decline in manpower levels but people are not stupid and will not wait for the axe to fall. They will take matters into their own hands.

Me? Very happy thank you!

[StopStart]

Pilot PVR time below OF-3 is now 12 months with immediate effect - see latest IBN.

If that's Gen then I reckon I made the cut by 48hrs.... :eek:

[chumbleywarner]

It is gen just heard from a mate PVR time 12 months

[Farfrompuken]

Well that will invoke a surge of PVRs from the General List cadre; every extra month served beyond 1 April 12 is another month on 0% flying pay.....:uhoh:

[Joe Black]

Not good. Have they altered any other PVR times - more specifically Sgt NCA? I've heard there may well be a big black hole looming in manning numbers.

[MechGov]

If the PVR time is 12 months at zero flying pay someone, who if they could stand the stigma, would be better off failing the fitness test. Out in a year with no reduction in flying pay and possibly no pension abatement. Just a thought.
Obviously i'm not advocating this as a course of action.

[LFFC]

Boeing warns airlines that time's running out for training - Flightglobal, 22 Jun 11 (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/06/22/358628/paris-boeing-warns-airlines-times-running-out-for-training.html)

Airlines are seeing greater numbers of their pilots being poached by competing carriers, a sure sign that the long-expected pilot shortage is kicking in despite continued economic gloom in the US and Europe.

Worldwide, it would seem that:

The average annual training need to meet that demand is 23,000 new pilots and 32,000 new technicians.

[H-D]

Sounds like I PVR'd in time a month ago! I'm out in Nov and can't be happier!

[Willard Whyte]

they could stand the stigma

What stigma?

Better to be a jovial fatty than a gaunt gym queen.

[JliderPilot]

Anyone got sight of this IBN? Nothing on the Airspace website as yet. I now have a date from manning that suits me, so have got in just in time. Best of luck to those who are wishing to leave.

[Except EngTech ST]

Whilst most will be full tilt towards pastures new i wish you all well, but if i may add caution to the mix. Talking from experience be under no illusions the wheels will not come off in absence from the seats, nor "will it show em" because your experience has gone, history dictates big wheels will keep on turning. Future employers will not beat a path to your door because your ex-military, all this qualifies and show's is that you can set an alarm clock and get up and dress yourself on time.
However that said, talking from experience i have been out longer than i was in (compulsory under options for change mid 90's) and never looked back, but don't use your PVR as a protest vote, cause the big house down the old smoke don't know you from the next bloke, your given a number for a reason.:hmm:

[StopStart]

Yeah, the IBN is up on the Airspace website now. Dated 22 Jun 11, basically says what's been said above - Early Termination (ET) Waiting Times have reverted to 12 months for pilots of OF3 and below. ETs already staffed etc will remain at 6 months....

:hmm:

[1.3VStall]

As someone who has been out of the RAF for over 15 years now, could someone please explain what all these modern terms - like OF3, SO2, SO3 etc - mean? In my day we just had flt lt, sqn ldr, wg cdr etc.

[StopStart]

Google (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_and_insignia_of_NATO_Air_Forces_Officers) is your friend ;)

[Climebear]

The OF numbers refer to the NATO codes for each rank when judging corresponding ranks. OF = Officer OR = Other Ranks

Table for UK ranks is at this linky (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2009/c2/table225.html)

SO1,2,3 etc refer to grades of Staff Officers. An SO1 is a Staff Offficer post filled by a wg cdr/cdr/lt col (OF4); an SO2 is a Staff post filled by sqn ldr/lt cdr/maj (OF3); and SO3 post is filled by a junior officer (or sometimes a WO)).

Many people confuse the 2 systems thinking that SO1 refers to all wg cdrs. It doesn't, it only refers to those in staff appointments not those in command.

That said why an RAF IBN refering to RAF pilots needed to use the term OF3 escapes me - we only have one OF3 rank that is squadron leader.

[MrBernoulli]

That said why an RAF IBN refering to RAF pilots needed to use the term OF3 escapes me Because it was written by some desk-driving chimp who spent time at SHAPE? :hmm:

[BEagle]

Straight to the point as ever, MrB...:ok:

No doubt you're correct though.

[StopStart]

SHAPE? How very eighties..... :cool:

[1.3VStall]

CB

Thanks!

1.3V

[SLLC]

Well, I gave back my schilling over a month ago after over a quarter of a century in service. Virtually everyone I spoke to, with a few exceptions, was envious of my decision to leave and were considering it themselves.


I couldn't agree more. I did my 12 months PVR and got out 2 months ago a few days after my 37th birthday to get the pension. Loved my time in but time to go and many now seem stuck in and paralysed by indecision. I'd say if you are no longer happy with it then leave and don't wait. I'd also agree that PVR'ing is not an effective way of 'showing em'; frankly, no-one cares.

SLLC

PS Can confirm, colour of grass is a deeper hue of green. But then I'm not in the airlines :ok:

[Overtorque]

Good luck to everyone PVR'ing. Whilst the grass is known not to be greener, I haven't regretted leaving for a moment, albeit at my 38/16.

People often ask me if I miss the RAF. I always state that I miss the PEOPLE - but not the job. I miss the job I joined, not the job I left. I had a wonderful time, but left at the right time. I can honestly say I don't miss spending most of the year in the desert - or with the threat of deployment to the desert.

There is SO much out here, as long as you take a leap of faith.

You don't regret the things you've done, you regret the things you haven't done.

[Pontius Navigator]

Overtorque, I think you are right, most of us miss the type of people and left at the right time, when ever we left.

Change has been there all the time I was in, the prop transports going. The real fighters going, the bombers going, the cold war ending, numbers declining, bases closing,

New highly capable aircraft, tacevals for war being replaced by war itself

All the time change.

[Rigga]

LOL!

Luverly drift here of what it Was like to what it Is like now.

From what I understand of the Tryphoon and its intricate superior systems, we now have a QRA where the jet itself can just "refuse" to go?

"...wouldn't have happened in my day!"

[High_Expect]

Am I the only one 'a bit miffed' by the wording of the announcement? We have the following options available; return of service, FRI's, pay rises etc - but we've chosen the zero cost option that costs us nothing and screws you over the most..... Clearly I didn't expect them to just start handing out the cash but why dress up the bad news with 'what you could have won'.

Just another example of how in touch they are and ultimately how much they care.

[Corporal Clott]

From the IBN...

Further information can be gained from the appropriate Manning Desk Officer or SO1 JO Aircew and NCA, 95221 XXXX

He or she must be a very popular bunny for anonymous calls asking for someone who's name rhymes with clucking anchor...

:p

CPL Clott

[FJ2ME]

This latest boost to morale has made me think about the 'new' PVR terms with regards to flying pay. I wonder if anyone has though of a legal challenge to the fact that if you PVR they hold you in employment for a year but reduce your salary drastically...Contrast this with a PAS chap who doen't receive flying pay, but did receive a massive gratuity to stay. If he leaves, no reduction in flying pay, and as long as he's done 5 years, no cash back on the gratuity. Seems largely unfair to me...

And further, if you have top or enhanced rate FP, and a healthy mortgage, plus family commitments, you may not actually be able to afford to resign. This would seem to me to be an infringement of an individuals human rights as you are then held in your employment against your will by essentially a cash trap...Not that I am usually an advocate of such EU bull$h!t but the European Court of Human Rights would surely have a field day with this?

Just my idle musings on a slack friday..

[Dengue_Dude]

You can always give them a month's notice and walk.

It would probably b*gger up any pension or gratuity rights though.

[Airborne Aircrew]

FJ2ME:

Just a couple of observations on your musing...

1. Since it is oft stated that FP is there as a tool for retention it will be argued that, once you have PVR'ed, then the lure of the FP has failed and there is no longer any point paying it.

2. There are millions of people worldwide that are in employment that is, for them, a "cash trap".

[high spirits]

Bet 'manning' are glad they sacked 170 pilots now. Hope that the short sighted idiots are regretting it as they view the exodus.

[MechGov]

"PAS chap who doen't receive flying pay, but did receive a massive gratuity to stay."


If only it was so. Gratuity is 3 x Pension @ 55

[dallas]

...you may not actually be able to afford to resign.
Hardly a position unique to the military! I've always seen the 12-month notice etc requirements to be more open to legal challenge as they do hold people in a job longer than the EU norm, but I'm sure some sort of national security caveat is in place to avoid a lucky chancer winning a one month precedent in court!

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Manning didn't sack the 170 u/t pilots; the RAF did. I suspect that Manning were commenting that it was perhaps not the most enlightened decision. However, you never know!

Duncs:ok:

[Farfrompuken]

Any advances today? I gather there were quite a few yesterday.

[Tourist]

"1. Since it is oft stated that FP is there as a tool for retention it will be argued that, once you have PVR'ed, then the lure of the FP has failed and there is no longer any point paying it."

That also applies to people in their last year till end of commission. Why pay people a retention bonus if they are leaving?

The answer, of course, being that if you started trying that then everybody would resign or stage a coup.

[high spirits]

Duncan. In case you missed it, 'manning' represent the RAF. They are all the same to me. Short sighted shysters who are every bit responsible for the upcoming crisis. Career squealing yes men who'd kiss any amount of senior officer puckered butt to get to staff college. There are 170 would be pilots who may have recourse to legal action over the way they have been treated.

[Redcarpet]

Rumour has it that there were several today. Have the flood gates opened?

[Sven Sixtoo]

Are they short of SAR pilots yet?

I'm willing to return on LC or FTRS terms at a very attractive price (when compared with spending £2m to train another SK pilot for 5 years RoS).

Iain

Bored with sitting on the ground

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Maybe Princes William or Harry will PVR; now that WOULD put the cat among the pigeons...
...and Sven can have his chopper back.

[Diablo Rouge]

I find it most amusing that the tone of comments regarding PVR has remained stable for years whilst the service roller-coaster has forgotten that you have to go up now and again to maintain momentum. Manning will be / are quite draconian in their reponse to PVR for that is exactly what they want. I am unfortunate to be living on a stn that probably has the highest rate of PVR in the RAF at the present time and everybody I have spoken to regarding either PVR or upcoming scheduled exit dates have all said that there is no will whatsoever from Manning to try and change their minds; and these people have jobs that simply will not feature on any redundancy proposals and some have skillsets that will most definately be missed by their peers. In short: The system does not care, so "do-one" if you are going.

FWIW, the inevitable feeling of low value or lack of worth is not one that is shared by the guys and girls left to prop up whats left and there are gaps in operational and training capability inbound that will hurt like hell. For those that go: Bon-Voyage and I sincerely hope that the pastures new and ripe with a tone of green to your liking. For those that stay behind, mines a Stella!

[wokkamate]

18 @ Odiham now.......and counting. Might add myself to that list soon

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

high spirits,

Sorry mate, you are wrong. Manning don't make people redundant. They may be the focal point for the information, but it is not the drafters/manners that do the sacking. To say that they represent the RAF is, in my opinion, simply lazy. Manning has NO influence over the number of personnel required to complete fg trg - or any other job for that reason. Manning make enough mistakes in the job that they are expected to do - putting the right person in the right job at the right time (or somesuch bolleaux) - without getting the grif for stuff that is beyond their control.

Duncs:ok:

[high spirits]

Duncan. Semantics fella.. Not a poster yourself are you? If not, who is to blame for this in your opinion??

[Fortissimo]

Duncan, High Spirits, sorry but I think you are both wrong! Manning does have some influence over numbers, albeit indirectly. And HS, your sweeping generalisation about the deskies is unreasonable and unwarranted. If your perception is driven by the way some of the training pipeline people have been treated, I think you will find that the Manning team has been trying to make the best of a bad job - they won't necessarily have got it completely right. There is never a perfect solution where people are concerned, and - to return to the thread - something as simple as a PVR can set ripples through a manning plan that can take a long time to resolve. My own opinion stems from time spent as a desk officer, but I had much more information and support then at my disposal than Manning has today - reductions in staff and the imposition of JPA has seen to that. Manning jobs are not as easy as you might think. Perhaps HS should give it a go and show us how it should be done?

[VinRouge]

YOu arent going to keep 100% of people happy 100% of the time. Simple fact.

[minigundiplomat]

Wokkamate,

18 have been @ Odiham for years!

Only joking - over what time scale? any recent ones?

MGD

[wokkamate]

MGD - See PMs. Latest PVR was this week. They are going to keep coming too, from what I have heard!

[high spirits]

Fortissimo,
If we are at a high rate of PVR (as some suggest)during the worst economic period since the late 1920s then we are bang in trouble. The desk officers are the human interface. Their collective failure to do a competent job over the years is the reason we are in this mess. That is what you get when you post an untrained person into a HR environment. You are right about something. I could not do the job as I am a pilot, not a deskie. That is why I would not volunteer to do a job that affects other peoples lives without any formal training...

[VinRouge]

No, this is what you get when you cut CEA, reduce crews on the frontline without reducing the tasking, provide insufficient training, threaten your personnel with significant pay cuts, changes to pensions and effectively show f*ck all loyalty towards your people whilst expecting them, time after time, to give 100% whilst receiving very little back in return.

The civvie market pays handsomely for such motivation, it appears as if that is now becoming apparent. The poster is an easy target. The real responsibility for failure sits right at the top.

[Kitbag]

Interesting that the ORs are looked after by PStaffs and the Officers aren't, I think they are looked after by officers from within their own branch- one imagines that this a deliberate policy to develop the whole officer who is destined for higher/better things- by which I mean having to be aware that there is more to life than just a single role. Anyone know if the top echelons of the RAF have done desk jobs in the past?
Of course, the ORs are just numbers not people so they don't count.:}

[Lima Juliet]

this is what you get when you cut CEA, reduce crews on the frontline without reducing the tasking, provide insufficient training, threaten your personnel with significant pay cuts, changes to pensions and effectively show f*ck all loyalty towards your people whilst expecting them, time after time, to give 100% whilst receiving very little back in return

Yup, that will be why then and they can't say they weren't warned!

LJ

[High_Expect]

How long until we see the PVR waiting time increased to the maximum 18 months?

Surely increasing it once has shown 'mannings hand'.... I'm guessing we'll now see a surge of applications as people want to get theirs in before it goes up again.

Nice work :ugh: I'm looking forward to AMP Briefing Team's visit next month!

[high spirits]

High Expect,
Nail-Head-Smack... The large penny drops from the heavens, delta-hotel on Air Command.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

HS,

No, I'm not a poster. But I do know what they do and that's not what most people think that they are supposed to do. By the time a PVR has got to the deskie, it's too late. It is (IMHO) the chain of command that should have determined why Bloggsy is pissed off enough to hit the button and tried to determine what could be done to change Bloggsy's mind - if that was possible; unlikely in the current climate, I think. By the time the detail has got to the deskie the only thing left to do is to determine the exit date; and if he can do another OOA before he leaves!

Duncs:ok:

[high spirits]

Duncs,
If it sounds like I'm gloating about the position of the deskies then that's incorrect. However, I still think that posting a pilot whose star is on the rise, to be a deskie for 2 years, in direct competition with his mates, is a bit @rse, and a conflict of interests. I'm unsure that a professional HR trained muppet would do much better, but we persist with the present system of 'you kiss my arse, and staff college is on'.
This outdated attitude is doing nothing to stem the flow of PVRs...

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

HS,

No complaints from me there!

Duncs:ok:

[Corporal Clott]

Here's the list of things that has got me ordering a pension prediction from SPVA to start considering my options (in no particular order, I might add):

1. Promotion flat as fart
2. Command tours on the decline
3. 2 year pay freeze (whilst others are getting rises or bonuses)
4. Tightening of CEA that forces you to move even when you don't need to
5. Loss of the ability to roll over 15 days leave each year
6. Lack of SFA close to where I work (90 minutes is not close!)
7. Loss of service in Officers' Mess with CRL
8. Loss of Incidental Expense Allowance
9. Wind back of Home To Duty (especially when they can't give you a quarter near your place of work)
10. Inability to serve INVOLSEP in London
11. Future Project SIRIUS and the "haves" and "have nots"
12. JPA and having to spend hours receipting everything (bring back flat rates - win some, lose some)
13. 20-odd pence a mile mileage allowance that only just covers petrol (nothing for the extra insurance premium now required or the wear and tear on the car)
14. Lack of MT vehicles or drivers to pick you up without waiting hours/days (especially if being collected at Brize)
15. The pension changes - some very sneaky indeed
16. Decision paralysis in the HQs (hardly surprising given that it is mostly only the hoop snoggers that are getting a look in!)
17. Haddon-Cave and the madness that is developing courtesy of the MAA (FFS, flying is a dangerous game sweetpea!)
18. Inability to man-manage my troops without having to break rules
19. DII - especially, the light side. Why can't we just have PC World laptops and some encryption software?
20. Overstretch (when does overstretch get so bad that it won't ping back into shape? I think we're finding out now)
21. Medical/dental treatment has significantly declined
22. Fitness tests - that bloody bleep test sees more of my guys signed off with tendon issues than 1.5 mile run ever did
23. Waste - mostly to waste o space. If we didn't keep "saving jobs in British industry", as we are so often told, then we might still have an Air Force of 50,000+. Effectively, we have shed Forces jobs to prop up jobs in influential MPs constituencies
24. The same people doing the same ops - I reckon 20% of the RAF do the RAF's deployments
25. Getting lump sums and pensions if I leave and nothing if I stay

So, after 22 years of decline my loyalty to Queen and Country is as strong as ever, but my head is telling me "enough is enough".

CPL Clott

[Corporal Clott]

PS

26. SFA that is falling to bits, in the middle of nowhere and with management (HICs and the MODern Housing lot) who don't give a rat's arse!

:*

[BANANASBANANAS]

First of all - huge respect to former colleagues who are still doing their utmost to 'hold the line' in ever worsening conditions.

Probably as good a time as any to jump ship (no pun intended) and look for an airline job. If you fancy the expat life, Air Asia have just ordered 200 (yes two hundred) A320s and are scratching their heads a bit wondering how to crew them - and no, I don't work for Air Asia. Other airlines (in the middle east - and I realise many of you may have had enough of the desert) are in permanent 'recruit' mode.

QATAR have just awarded crews a 17% pay rise, Emirates a similar figure. Once out of UK you can then transfer your mil pension into a QROPS (google it) scheme and watch your fund grow at 15%+ pa tax free rather than at CPI (taxable) with UK plc.

I'm not saying it's paradise out here guys but ask me if I would ever go back and guess what the answer is?

[Fire 'n' Forget]

An eastern airline has already chosen the 'option' on a few of the 'chopped' I believe they start soon on double wages. And good on them !

[downsizer]

17. Haddon-Cave and the madness that is developing courtesy of the MAA (FFS, flying is a dangerous game sweetpea!)


Heretic! You will be burned at the stake....

[Gnd]

At least the MAA ask and not tell so there is no gripe there, measured and appropriate all the time and sympathetic to the risks we need to take.....................................OR B!!!!!!!!!
I think we should PVR to avoid the old women in the MAA before they infect the real aviators!

[thefodfather]

MAA get a kicking on this thread and on others complained at for going nowhere near far enough to protect aviators. They can't win either way.

[Pontius Navigator]

13. 20-odd pence a mile mileage allowance that only just covers petrol (nothing for the extra insurance premium now required or the wear and tear on the car)

I keep thumping this one - the extra expenses are tax allowable!

[The Old Fat One]

And I keep thumping this one...
If your costs are not met...don't use your vehicle (applies universally)

[Chugalug2]

Thefodfather:
MAA get a kicking on this thread and on others complained at for going nowhere near far enough to protect aviators. They can't win either way.
I totally agree, they can't win. They can't win, not because Airworthiness Regulation is a popularity contest but because it is an independence contest. The CAA is not popular, try asking any civil aviator be they pilot, engineer or airline, of the massive fees that have to be continuously fed into its maw. But it is effective because it is independent of them. The MAA is part of the MOD and thus is compromised in that vital respect from the word go. Numerous threads on this forum testify to the losses in blood and treasure that have resulted from Regulation and Investigation being within the MOD's control. That is what makes military flying dangerous before you even add an enemy to the equation. The UK military urgently needs a separate and independent MAA and MAAIB, and time is of the essence.
Thread drift? Oh, Sorry! Can I at least have points for mentioning the "A" word only once? No? So be it.
BTW I put in a Formal Official letter (as a Flt Lt) to my Boss requesting PVR over 39 years ago. The next thing I knew I was summoned to London for interview. With quaking knees I reported there, only to find it was my ex-boss, now a Group Captain and supposedly dealing with Wg Cdr's and above only. He had seen my letter go across his desk, stopped it, and asked to see me. Was I going out under a cloud? As it happens I wasn't, but I was one of his guys and he was one of my bosses. Old timers story of old times. I understand it doesn't happen like that now?

[ORAC]

Torygraph: Cream of officers bail out of RAF (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8600059/Cream-of-officers-bail-out-of-RAF.html) RAF chiefs fear that the “cream” of the air force is leaving after a dozen group captains resigned or asked for voluntary redundancy in the past month, The Daily Telegraph has learnt.

By Thomas Harding, Defence Correspondent
7:00AM BST 27 Jun 2011

One of the officers had been earmarked to become a future head of the RAF and three others were in line to become at least air vice-marshals.

The news comes as the second-in-command of the RAF warned that morale was becoming “fragile” as the Service faced deep cuts that include 5,000 redundancies. Senior RAF sources have said that the officers decided to quit after they had “seen the writing on the wall” with reductions in equipment and personnel.

The resignations will add further pressure on the Government to reverse the cuts made in last year’s defence review.

At least one of the officers is serving on the staff of the head of the RAF and is known to be privy to future plans for the Service that will see it shrink drastically in size and influence.

The Telegraph reported last week that Air Chief Marshal Sir Simon Bryant, Commander-in-Chief Air Command, had privately told MPs that the RAF would struggle to continue combat operations in Afghanistan and Libya if operations continued beyond September. It is understood that the group captains – the equivalent of a colonel in the Army – have resigned not because of poor morale but because they see far fewer opportunities in a weakened RAF, defence sources said.

[ZH875]

And I keep thumping this one...
If your costs are not met...don't use your vehicle (applies universally)

If you have used your own car on 'Golden Wheels' at any time since JPA came in, YOU CANNOT REFUSE.


Or so JPA tells you.

What is the legality of this?

[The Old Fat One]

I left in 2003 so I have no idea how the process works.

However, it cannot be legal in the workplace (any workplace) to force an employee to use their own resources at a net loss.

Aside from legal or otherwise...a simple "my car is broken/away/sold etc etc" can hardly be challenged...can it :confused:

[The Old Fat One]

I find the various items on high paid people leaving interesting.

Are these people seeing the light and stepping off the treadmill? They are on huge pensions after all (ok...relatively huge).

How many are going to chase other careers; how many are simply cashing in their chips for a place in the sun?

And are these high level PVRs of any relevance to a 38 year old working pilot with a young family to feed?

These are rhetorical questions...I don't know the answers. I have however been following some recent articles by social commentators various, that suggests the credit crunch has generated a "step change" in attitude amongst the professional classes...something along the lines of...

"If I'm gonna knock my pans out chasing riches only for some a**oles to come along and take it all away, what's the point? Better to ring fence what I've got and grow happily old in the sun."

Food for thought, don't you think?

PS If you want to know what I consider to be a decent pension...25K upwards will provide a very nice lifestyle for someone who has zero debt (ie has paid off their mortgage) and no responsibility burdens (ie the kids have left the nest and the missus has her own dosh)

[BEagle]

£25K after tax, or before?

[The Old Fat One]

Apologies...

Circa 24K net (app 2K per month straight into your hipper) The tax burden on this amount is pretty small anyway. Unless you have a second income...in which case my point is irrelevant as you are probably minted.

[Pontius Navigator]

TOFO, you make a valid point. I was once slated for a duty visit to another unit about 70 miles away. MT would not provide a vehicle but insisted I use the train. The rail head for the other unit was over 30 miles away so they would have had to drive over 120 miles against my oown unit mileage of 140.

The most senior officer in the CoC on the station was my flt lt captain. I agreed I would use my own car provided there was a retrospective authorisation for golden wheels - or else. Wheels were subsequently approved.

As for being required to provide a supplementary MT service having once had golden wheels, as pointed out this falls down if Mrs PN was using the car, if the car was being serviced etc.

The point about using your own wheels at peanut rates is simply one of your own convenience.

[I'm Off!]

ZH875 - Sorry but that is incorrect, neither JPA nor the MoD can force you to use your own car if you choose not to. They are obliged to provide transport of some description at public expense to get you to where they require you to be for work reasons. If you offer to use your car, and they accept, a contract is agreed. If either side do not want to agree that contract, it does not happen and an alternative method of transport will be provided.

If they fail to provide an alternative method of transport you are perfectly entitled to not go, providing you have raised the issue and told the right people far enough in advance - someone else will get trooped, not you.

PS nice to see the usual suspects didn't take too long to turn a thread about an increasing quantity of PVRs into irrelevant airworthiness points. Cheers.

[scientia in alto]

I'm hearing as of Wednesday - 1yr PVR times and Zero fg pay for the period. Apparently fg pay is to aide retention and if you are leaving... it's too late. " :mad: " all cooperation for that last year then.

That could be a 20% pay cut. Now imagine trying to man manage a chap[ess] that has had a 20% pay cut and see how much work you get out of them! Again, it is those that are left, that will feel the pinch! :ugh:

SIA

[The Old Fat One]

SIA,

I had a saying for this style of bat stuffing...

You can only fire me once.

I know PVR is not them ditching you, but the outcome is the same. I never had to endure this...my flying pay was paid until the day I left. But it was oft muted as an idea in my day and I thought, in the words of the song...Oh what fun we'll have....

Twelve months of not giving a sh1t. Imagine the possibilities. (Or watch a few old Bilko episodes, that'll give you a few ideas)

[StopStart]

I'm hearing as of Wednesday - 1yr PVR times

And not just "as of Wednesday" either. It seems that those of us who PVR'd in the days leading up to this are also being included in this 1 year malarkey. Unless you've been given an exit date don't assume anything.... All very tedious.

[BEagle]

Just how can the RAF have degnerated into such utter rat-**** so quickly?

It cannot just have been the legacy of Trust-me-Tone and his Bush bum-sucking 'bring-a-bottle wars' and the gross underfunding of the Armed Forces under the liars of nuLabor, can it?

How can even the morons of the MoD-box believe that cutting flying pay for 12 months will not be utterly corrosive?

No wonder so many Gp Capts are PVR-ing.

Good luck, Stoppers - and to everyone else in the same leaking, rotting boat...:mad:

[Biggus]

I suspect that Stoppers is no longer receiving flying pay, so won't lose out financially by PVRing. Although this won't apply to everyone who PVRs obviously.


A semi retrospective increase in waiting time prior to exit from 6 to 12 months is certainly a kick in the teeth however......

[Hueymeister]

It pains me to say this, but it is really sad to be one of those who is either getting cheesed off or wants to exit sharpish because of the way GB Mil as a whole is being systematically paired down to nothing, with the capability of doing next-to-nothing in such short order. Sadder still is listening to the first-tourists around the bazaars bemoaning the fact that even they feel 'under-valued' and somewhat put upon. GB Plc relies so heavily on the goodwill of her troops of all creeds/services/cap badges etc. to get the job done, mostly through dint of professional pride and not wanting to let the side down. It can only rely on this goodwill for so long...the cuts are coming too fast and too deep...we are just as vulnerable as the teachers/doctors/nurses as we are soooo easy to thumb over by any government. I've met and talked to Fox; like all politicos he came across as aloof and supercilious. He should have stuck to scab lifting.

I am trapped for another couple of years, but will pull the Y&B as soon as I'm in a position to do so; notwithstanding the fact that it 'aint necessarily greener grass out there, just I get to choose which lawn I stand on....:sad::suspect::{

[sidewayspeak]

I'm waiting for the chance of redundancy because I am most definitely in it for me now. If that doesn't happen, then Y & B handle. In the meantime, I give nothing to this organisation. Nothing.

[Party Animal]

Sadly, BEagle pretty much sums it up. Interesting too that over the last few years, we have had a shortage of pilots and a surplus of navs. This wasn't such a bad thing as navs were filling a lot of the crap staff jobs that pilots used to do and collectively, the RAF was still short of aircrew overall. It now looks like the navs are about to be culled and Manning are under the (d)elusion that pilots will once again fill staff posts originally allocated to them.

So as we continue to spiral downhill, the organisation is going to have to accept aircrew who have just taken a massive pay cut and can't get out quick enough working alongside navs (and AEO's and Air Eng's) who are facing the chop (great motivational booster) or are seeing out their 12 months redundancy notice. How much interest and commitment does anyone think we are going to get from these people?

Even worse in this electronic age. How much damage can the above create under a cloud of bitterness before they go? Oops, there goes another electronic file deleted by mistake?

I guess time will tell but personally, I think we're in for 5 or more years of something akin to the 'dark ages'. If anyone cares to disagree, please feel free to reply with optimism and raise readers morale over the rest of this week!

[xenolith]

This is so sad. I understood that the RAF had ditched the 'Investors In People' bullsh1t as a cost cutting measure. It would appear that the paymasters wont allow it to invest in its people anymore. I did my 22 and left as I'd done all that I wanted to; the proverbial isn't greener, just different and something to get used to and all of you have loads of experience at that. Why do the government/civil servants get it so consistantly wrong about the forces? Is it because they are complacent about how much crap they can pile on you?

[sidewayspeak]

Makes me angry that MOD think they can hold us for 12 months when they have changed the rules such that post-2013 they can make us redundant with just 3 months notice!

Sorry MOD, you can't have your cake and eat it. When I start looking for a job, and if I am lucky enough to get one, your DIN will not stop me handing in my month's notice and walking. And I am happy to be that man that publically challenges the system. They can stop me talking to the press....but not my family.

F*&$ the MOD.

[High_Expect]

Well said that man... Does anyone know if anyone is trying this at the moment?

With a job lined up how can they expect you to suffer a 20% pay cut for 12 months. With no 'return of service' in effect I don't remember signing anything that says I have to put my family in financial hardship. Did I blink and miss being sent to prison?

Anyone know an employment lawyer?

[Farfrompuken]

I'm hearing as of Wednesday - 1yr PVR times and Zero fg pay for the period.

1 year PVRs from last week. 0% flying pay from 1 Apr 12.

The legalities of docking your pension are looking a tad dubious. I know they say you get 105-110% for staying till your exit point, but as your basic wage is unchanged and taxable, then it should receive the same pension, PVR or not. Otherwise those getting the full (110%) pension need to pay more tax.

Same with PA. As your pension is based on your full basic salary which is unchanged if you PVR before your 5 year point, you therefore have to receive a pension based on your full basic salary.

Might be worth some legal advice on that one......:cool:

Edit:

Plus if they've suddenly changed the flying pay bit to 0 from last wednesday that will be on thin ice; if you impose such a long (6-12 month) notice with published and notified existing financial penalties, then that is fine as you can plan financially. If they've docked Flying Pay just like that for all existing PVRs, then they've totally removed any financial planning ability and are being irresponsible (almost a breach of contract there). Plus absenteeism will go through the roof due stress etc. Negating the benefit of nailing these guys to the cross for 12 months!:rolleyes:

[thefodfather]

I left in Feb and it was only having started in a new big organisation who treat their staff with respect did I realise quite how bad things had got. I learnt more about the vision and goals of the leadership in my new place in the first 2 weeks than I ever got in the RAF over 20+ years. Someone in my dept screwed up the other day, no witch-hunt for the guilty and no one got shouted at, we fixed the problem like adults and then worked out how to learn from it, I nearly fell over with surprise.

[ralphmalph]

I am speechless. The slip into chaos is starting. There is not sign of the pace of life letting up and this happens.

The Lynx force will reduce from 920 to about 650 over the next 3 years, continue to operate with Mk9A in HERRICK at the same pace and also field WILDCAT......anyone that thinks that this will end any other way than by people voting with feet is deluded. Perhaps that is the plan!?

The fact that we are now effectivly trapped with a 12 month hold and at worst a £13,000 pay cut has completely stripped me of any loyalty.

Get me out of here as quickly as possible.

Surely if someone finds a job offer after the MOD has changed our "Terms of Service" so radically, then refusing release is almost akin to discrimination.

Is it worth getting a group of people together and seeking some decent legal advice?

If it all pans out to be too painful and a 12 month delay is inevitable, then I will be unfit to fly from stress and the MOD can whistle if they think they will get anything out of me....fact.

Absolutley gutted. Making exit financially unviable and restricting outflow is a dangerous game to play!

[davejb]

I can't help but think that a civvy court would have some difficulty understanding why aircrew whose flying pay was stopped should still be expected to fly... dunno about reality, but there's something really mad sounding about that idea.

"I'm not getting FP, so I'm not F'ing...." or perhaps
"Can't clear my ears....they're full of boll*x"

[high spirits]

Or you leave at an option point with no loss of FP.... Seems obvious that manning is running scared. Still, if they cut all those HQ staff non-jobs (replace SO2 J3 with SLOPs) and get rid of the MAA monster (call it Flight Safety or something) they would be able to field a few more Aircrew. I wonder if some journo were to ask the question as to how many qualified pilots there are in non flying jobs in the military, what the answer would be....??

[VinRouge]

I really do despair when people refer to the MAA as a "monster". They are going to be the last thing between us and potentially losing a hell of a lot of people once the cuts REALLY start to bite. Things are pretty unpleasant as they are, with serious scaling back of frontline crews, aircrew being put out to pasture, whilst those remaining struggle to cope with the same level of tasking.

Anyone thinking that holding senior rank and ministers culpable for bone decisions (cuts being one of them) leading to a non-operational loss of aircraft needs their heads feeling!

[The Old Fat One]

"I'm not getting FP, so I'm not F'ing...." or perhaps
"Can't clear my ears....they're full of boll*x"


It is much easier than that. You just walk into your bosses office and tell him (on the record) you are a risk to aviation...put it in my 5000 please. Any old reason will do...stress, depression, whatever.

Of course, for the professionally motivated person that's way easier to say than to do...and there is the (very remote) possibility that it could follow you into civvy life.

But for the seriously f**ked off, who does not give a shisen anymore, it is an unplayable "in your face".

[high spirits]

Vin rouge.
Make them an independent organisation from the senior officers and ministers, and they will have some credibility....

Until then, they are a tainted outfit.

[thefodfather]

Who mentioned the MAA first? Surely there are worse things to worry about right now than arguing about the degree of independence of the MAA. Or, I'm sensing I might be wrong. Vin Rouge, right as usual though.

[Lima Juliet]

Reading the 82 page DRU document and I see the MAA is going to die :eek:

Only to be merged with other safety outfits into the Defence Safety Authority...now where does that put all the MAA regulatory instructions, etc...?

LJ:ooh:

[Al R]

TOF1: It is much easier than that. You just walk into your bosses office and tell him (on the record) you are a risk to aviation...put it in my 5000 please. Any old reason will do...stress, depression, whatever.

Make sure you've got you've got up to 65% of that flying pay insured first.. ;)

[Willard Whyte]

I wonder if some journo were to ask the question as to how many qualified pilots there are in non flying jobs in the military, what the answer would be....??

I wonder how many want to be in those desk jobs. WSOs too, of all denominations.

[Runaway Gun]

In such difficult times, how can OC's and Flight Commanders continue to maintain flight safety, efficiency and morale? I mean, there's only so many "grit your teeth and get on with it boys, we have another bumpy ride ahead" speeches that we can take.

NB. I am not an OC or Flt Cdr.

[skaterboi]

Slightly off topic but relevant question....if you accept promotion to Sqn Ldr at age 36 does your 16/38 option point cease to exist and become a 44 option point? If so, and you still want to leave at 38-39 years old, do you then have to PVR with associated loss of Flying Pay?

Also I've seen conflicting advice about amortising the pension; is it 2 years or 3 years service?

[The Old Fat One]

RG

I was and the answer is ...with honesty.

The overwhelming majority of Sqn chaps and chapesses are first rate people, who need very little leading and even less "arm round the shoulder" stuff. Most of them can sniff out bullsh1t at 500 paces. Treat them with honesty and they will respect you, even if they are pretty f**ked off with the service.

If them above don't like the message you are delivering to them below, that is their problem and theirs alone.

@skaterboi. It was 2 years in 2001. I was promoted 1 Jan 2001 and left via PVR in 2003 on a Sqn Ldr's pension.

Don't know if it has changed since.

[Exascot]

Slightly off topic but relevant question....if you accept promotion to Sqn Ldr at age 36 does your 16/38 option point cease to exist and become a 44 option point? If so, and you still want to leave at 38-39 years old, do you then have to PVR with associated loss of Flying Pay?

I was in this position, albeit 16 yrs ago. However they just wanted me to extend one year to do three in post. I refused so they gave me 'acting' paid. I retired at my 16/38 on Sqn Ldr pension. And, incidentally, you retain the retired rank after a certain time, I forget how long.

[st nicholas]

I knew a chap who was royally shafted by Army. Punishment totally outweighed the crime. A punishment posting to Germany followed. He then adopted a passive resistance policy.

1. Failed all flying checks deliberately despite being seen to be keen and enthusiastic.

2. Developed a punctuation and spelling impediment that limited the paperwork the regiment would allow him to send.

3. When volunteered for a watch keepers post in ....... informed Colonel he would do everything in his power to lower the corps standing within the rest of the army.

4. Spent an enjoyable last few months service as regimental skiing officer.

Never underestimate the power of apathy.

PS Your flying record does not follow you to civi street.

[Farfrompuken]

Skaterboi,

there is a 2 year Expectation of service on promotion, but no return of service.

2 years substantive to get pension or 3 years acting rank.

[The Old Fat One]

Apologies did not mean to mislead. I know of course your flying record does not follow into civvy street.

What I meant was, in these days of legally neutral references, it is unlikely anything you do in the military will follow you into civvy street; unless...

a. It was a major crime.
b. It comes out via personal contact (as opposed to official reference).

Since I left I have worked for companies large (large as in huge) and small (small as in four of us). None has ever shown the slightest interest in my military career or ever sought a reference the RAF/MOD.

[skaterboi]

Thanks :)

So, if promoted at 36, two years to amortise and I can leave at my original 16/38 point with a Sqn Ldr pension. I guess the only fly in the ointment is a new type OCU will demand a 3 year ROS....

Sorry for the thread drift, just don't want to show all my cards if I don't need to!

[thefodfather]

I was promoted at 35 1/2 and my 38/16 point was extended by 6 months to provide 3 years ROS to my pension and that was only 3 years or so ago.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

I was the same. Promoted substantive (in 2006) 18 months before 16 year point, on the condition I stay in for minimum of 3 years, so left after 17 1/2 years instead with a much better pension. Wouldn't have held acting rank for long enough to get pension by original 38 point, so stuck it out for another 18 months to get it.

[Chugalug2]

Runaway Gun:
In such difficult times, how can OC's and Flight Commanders continue to maintain flight safety, efficiency and morale? I mean, there's only so many "grit your teeth and get on with it boys, we have another bumpy ride ahead" speeches that we can take.
I don't know whether this comment was anything more than rhetorical hand-wringing, but I for one think that you are onto the nub of the mess that is the present RAF (sorry if that offends anyone!). I told a story earlier of one of my bosses going beyond the call of duty for me, he was merely one of many of my bosses that went out on a limb for those who they commanded. That is the crucial point, they commanded! They had the discretion and the power to get things done, to stop other things being done and in short to ensure the operational efficiency of their Squadron by ensuring the welfare of those in their Squadron.
Unless and until the Powers of Subordinate Commanders are regained to those that they had in my day then morale will plummet and PVR's will prevail. OK, I own up, I PVR'd (in 1973 to set the time scale ;-) but not because of low morale, I had a great time and wouldn't have changed a thing. It was just that when push came to shove I wanted to go on flying and the RAF didn't. A comment on me rather than it, no doubt.
If the reorganisation of the MOD means that the RAF has a greater control of its own budget then that control should be fed down to its real commanders of men and women, ie those in command at squadron/unit, wing and station levels. With increased powers the ability of subordinate commanders to improve the lives of those they command would mean higher morale and retention. Even better if those commanders are Sqn Ldrs, Wing Cdrs, and Gp Capts respectively!

[Runaway Gun]

Thanks Chuga - it was a serious question :ok:

[Aggro]

Haven't posted for a while but happen to know that the 1 month notice does apply in law, as long as there is no ROS from an OCU or academic course that applies. Even then, only a proportion of the cost of that course is payable. They may come looking for you initially but if you redirect them to your lawyer, citing EU legislation as your justification for leaving with minimal notice, they will not want to go to court to have the precedent proven publicly. However, the resettlement package is excellent and gives you the option of being better prepared to take a good offer rather than the first. There are lots of ways to make the 12 months inefficient for the Service and maximise it's value to you so if they insist on you staying, why not use the time wisely to make sure there is less hassle and no potential pension/gratuity payment issues? 12 months is actually more like 9 when you take the various sets of leave into account which isn't as long as you think when you're job hunting.

[Willard Whyte]

The problem Chug, is going to be how to motivate those who've been made redundant against their will*. I've been around a bit and never met anyone with enough charisma to pull that little trick, not lately anyway. I've met plenty of tossers who I'd happily attempt to knock seven shades of shi* out of though.

*May as well be let them out the day they're told and simply pay them for another 12 months. Better still just give them their 12 months wages in yet another lump sum in addition to the ones they will already get.

[Chugalug2]

Point taken, WW. It seems to me (admittedly looking in from afar, as it were) that the Service has many things that need sorting out. The culling of Fleets, Stations, Units, etc, raises morale issues that even my excellent bosses would have been hard put to deal with. These though must be relatively shortlived, unless the process continues to its logical conclusion of total extinction.
More long term is the chronic low morale caused by the relative powerlessness of commanders to solve housing, welfare, financial worries, etc. They used to be able to. They need to be able to again. I have bored for Britain on this previously, so won't prolong the agony other than to say that nothing is sacred if operational effectiveness is at stake.
If the monster that is the MOD can be tamed, then the bean-counters that have wrought upon the Armed Services what our enemies failed to can be defeated as well. Effective subordinate commanders evolve into capable very senior officers, a species long thought to be extinct. A disciplined force needs leaders. Time the Royal Air Force treated itself to some!

[Bob Viking]

At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old man (it's early and I haven't had the best night's sleep), we don't appear to be in the business of promoting leaders nowadays. It seems to me that we promote administrators. I realise there are exceptions to this rather sweeping statement and I would just love to be proven wrong. However, I think the system has got it all wrong at the moment and I, for one, would rather be commanded by a leader that I thought was a bit of a knob than an admin guru that was my best mate.
BV:O

[over-talk]

Good leaders or not, the way I see it recent events have shown that people need to have a backup plan as demonstrated by what happened to the Nimrod, Harrier and F3 boys and girls. My guess is that Sentinel won’t be needed after HERRICK, Tristar is on it’s way out along with the VC10. FSTA is on the horizon along with A400M but who knows... The Merlin may or may not be off to the Navy and puma 2 may or may not come in along with uncertainty over the buy of more Chinooks. If you have a family to support (as a lot of us do) you need to have something in your back pocket.

Due to the levels of equivalence for UK QSPs (correct me if I’m wrong here) if you’re anything but a ME captain, your looking at anything from £20,000 to £40,000 (depending on your situation) to get your ATPL(A).

As I’ve explained, if flying is the only thing that you want to do (and not some desk - worst case: BALO or other S%@*T job) and you need ensure that you can support yourself and your family, it’s the only thing to do.

After having spent that much money, you might start to wander if it’s really worth staying in an organisation that: gives you little job satisfaction on the whole, causes quite a lot of strain to your closest relationships, has frozen your pay, has made it much more difficult or impossible to pay for your children to go to a good school, has taken away allowances that were once there, and if the Hutton report is anything to go by will seriously change your future pension to your financial detriment.

All the time you spend treading water in an organisation that has consistently taken entitlements away from you, you are missing opportunities to get onto the ‘seniority ladder’ of the airlines.

We all joined, I guess because we love flying, wanted to change the world for the better and work with great people. Well there is not much fun flying to be had anymore, politics and in-fighting reduce the impact of the good that is done (although I’m sure that we still do some) and there are professional dedicated people in the civilian world.

I think that people are weighing up the decision based on some or all the above factors and coming to the conclusion that it’s just not fair to their families for them to stay in. A one year wait without flying pay may stop a few, (and i definitely think by the way that it is very unfair to the people who have put their lives on the line time and again for their country and just want a better life for themselves and their families - which the RAF is unable to provide) but I think that it will ultimately be a futile attempt to manage the symptoms whilst ignoring the cause.

[Red Line Entry]

Actually, Bob, it's because we've had leaders who were knobs (from an administrative perspective) that we're in the sh1t now! They failed completely to align their desire for more kit with the hard reality of not enough money in the pot. It wasn't difficult to forsee the problem - plenty of people had been highlighting it. But there was a collective desire not to look facts in the face.

Personally, I'd rather have had an admin wallah in the chair if he'd had the backbone to stop the madness that was the equipment procurement programme.

Now I sound like a grumpy old man!

[1.3VStall]

When I joined the RAF we most certainly had had leaders and commanders.

My first squadron commander, who subsequently went on to be a station commander (and beyond), taught me some valuable lessons about leadership. He had the squadron (and later his station) eating out of the palm of his hand and was universally respected and admired. Nearly 40 years after my arrival interview in his office I still could call him nothing else but "Boss" at our annual reunion. He was not alone in those days; there were many genuine leaders who could engender both loyalty and affection. In fact good leaders and commanders was the norm.

Where did it all go wrong? I believe about the time the RAF started talking about managers, executives, directors, budget holders and agencies. The Service lost itself in management speak and a whole generation of navel-gazing, anally-retentive senior officers was born.

It saddens me to read a thread such as this. So many RAF officers of today are quite clearly very jaundiced, have little loyalty and have no respect for their senior officers, who in turn appear blind to the needs and aspirations of their subordinates.

Quite what can be done to recover the situation is beyond me,

[Biggus]

Nothing....it's too far gone. :{

[The Old Fat One]

So many RAF officers of today are quite clearly very jaundiced, have little loyalty and have no respect for their senior officers, who in turn appear blind to the needs and aspirations of their subordinates.


People have loyalty to people. In battle soldiers have loyalty to each other and fight for the man next to them. Throughout my career, practically every person I served with was loyal to his fellow men (and women) to his boss and to his subordinates.

When it comes to loyalty to a "thing", like a country, a service or a company, life gets a little more complicated. When the "thing" spends its whole time sticking large objects up your hole thing...the novelty of loyalty to the "thing" quickly wears thin.

Apologies if that got a little flowery...halfway down the post BBQ second bottle of Merlot.

[Pontius Navigator]

People have loyalty to people. In battle soldiers have loyalty to each other and fight for the man next to them. Throughout my career, practically every person I served with was loyal to his fellow men (and women) to his boss and to his subordinates.

Loyalty is a two-way street.

On my first tour the JOs did not believe their SOs, in particular the top dog, were loyal to them. He had been assuring those newly posted in that the station was not going to close and they could buy a house locally. Less than 2 months later the station had closed and the wing moved in its entirety to another unit, staish and all.

When he departed he summoned all the officers and then berated us as the most rebellious lot of JOs he had ever met.

A similar thing happened at Lossie when the staish believed the professionalism (lack of) of some aircrew threatened his stairway to the stars. I think something similar happened at Leuchars.

Sadly there are many instances where one can disagree with TOFO, (noted you did say practically every person .

[minigundiplomat]

PN,

those days are long gone. The current executive style is to sit on the pot for 2 years and do nothing risky at all, just making sure it doesnt boil over.

Of course, nothing improves, and all the problems are swept under the carpet for the next incumbent - but a sure fire route to Air Commodore for many.

[Pontius Navigator]

MGD, what is long gone? The loyalty two-way street or the single minded route to the stars?

That a large number of SOs are jumping might suggest that they see the two-way street is actually a dead-end.

[minigundiplomat]

The 2 way street.

Many of those SO's jumping are not jumping because they disagree with the poor way things are run, or for ideological reasons; they are jumping because their personal options for future greatness are closing one by one.

[Lima Juliet]

MGD

You're correct mate. However, the "one by one" is so fast at the moment that it is more like an almighty SLAM!

LJ

[cazatou]

If the retention situation is as bad as postulated, then it would be advisable for the "Powers That Be" to ensure that nobody mentions to those pondering leaving the "Sinking Ship" that if they become RESIDENT Overseas then they are no longer liable for recall to HM Forces. :rolleyes:

[The Old Fat One]

Many of those SO's jumping are not jumping because they disagree with the poor way things are run, or for ideological reasons; they are jumping because their personal options for future greatness are closing one by one.


MGD

I suspect you are close to hitting the nail...not just SO but anybody who is relatively well set up already.

VR

Earlier I was sceptical about this developing into a full bloom aircrew exodus. Potentially, I stand corrected. I still think civvy air not the pull factor for many, but I confess I might have under estimated the push factor for many of those doing the math and thinking....

a. I can do better than this.

or

b. S*d it...I can get by on what I've already got stashed.

You could well be right sir.

[Madbob]

I'm one of those that went for the exit in 1989 at the end of the Cold War and can't say that I've ever looked back with any regrets.....Saying so may sound that I'm gloating which is the last thing on my mind. What concerns me is how's this going to end.....

Ok, we all know the country is broke and can't afford to maintain the armed forces we once could. The problem is knowing when it's going to stop. If we all knew that a 10% cut, or even a 20% cut would be the end of the story then we could perhaps cope. What is so unsettling is the compounded cuts year after year and now there are new "black holes" in the MoD's budget, which can hardly be a surprise given the un-funded wars in Iraq, Afg and now Libya.

The problem soon will not be asking for volunteers to take an early bath, but how to ensure that there is enough people left to field a team. At this rate of sink it will be very hard to pull out of the dive......never mind the over-stress.....the airframe's already been bent too far!

All this made worse by a sense of mistrust and poor leadership from above, which the coalition government has done little to improve, or even to understand.

MB

[5 Forward 6 Back]

CASBO,

Can you put a rough number on the PVRs at Brize? Is this really something that's going to be catastrophic in 12 months...?

At the other end of the country and not in 2Gp so out of the loop.

[Pontius Navigator]

MGD, we are in agreement then, the two-way street bit. Mind you, it has been one-way almost as far back as I can remember, with exceptions of course.

One instance that I tried to drum in to the ranks was you owed allegiance only to yourself and you worked only for your immediate RO. If he was a pillock heaven help you.

How many people have you seen working hard for the Service, and being loyal to their mates of course, often to the detriment of their resettlement, their famil and their future life?

I think it was Wallace Kyle who said that anyone who took more than a week's leave was disloyal and the counter was you could measure your impact by taking your hand out of a bucket of water and looking at the hole that was left.

[Willard Whyte]

Wonder how many Navs facing the sack, sorry, redundancy, could be re-assessed for pilot training?

Standing by for incoming flack.

Anyway, seem to remeber a comment by a VSO some years ago when asked whether he was worried by the number of people PVRing. Response was something along the lines of "those displaying that level of 'commitment' wouldn't be the sort of people they'd want to retain anyway."

One wonders if that supercillious attitude is still in place.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

None, I would say, considering we've just thrown 100+ trainees out of the pilot training pipeline.

Retraining navs would just prove that was the wrong choice

[High_Expect]

Does anyone know how many QSPs there are in the RAF today? Breakdown of multi, rotary and FJ. It would be interesting to know what % of each variant have PVR'd in the last month.

Ps. How can the higher ups think the Air Force is anything but utterly broken and moral in freefall when they are using PVR waiting times and zero flying pay as a stick?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I'd be very interested to here. I was thinking the other day that there haven't been any PVRs from my squadron, but with more thought it's because it's so highly diluted. First tourists don't tend to PVR!

[Jambo Jet]

PVRs have always been exaggerated in the past and the RAF tend not to care too much about the individuals who PVR. I suspect the tactics employed by manning recently (e.g. no extensions, no PAS offers, threats of ground tours) are all factors they know will result in PVRs, which leads me to think that is what they want; they want you to take an option or PVR.

Where I do not understand it though is why allied with this the RAF have just got rid of 170+ pilots in the training pipelines. I guess this frees up QFIs to go back to the front line sqns, but ultimately the RAF will be short of junior guys for the future and QFIs to train them. I suppose this is just the start of the reorg for MFTS.

Be interesting to know the numbers PVRing though.

[Gnd]

As a rumour service - is the whisper of 1000+ BA pilots required over the next few years true????

[Redcarpet]

I've heard up to six in just one week on one Sqn at Brize.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I've heard from one source of large numbers at Brize, and from another of equally large percentages from Odiham.

As per my previous post though, if you look at some FJ fleets, the fact that the front line squadrons have such a high percentage of first tourists means the PVR rate is tiny.

[Farfrompuken]

Flying pay goes down to 0% from 1/4/12.

If they've changed the rules without sufficient notice, they lay themselves wide open for a legal battle.

There are many more push factors than pull factors. However those pull factors are very strong:ok:

[high spirits]

5 forward,
I have never seen so many first tourists doing licences and asking questions about life on the 'other side'...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

You must be on a fleet with a higher flying rate than mine! With people frequently slipping into VERY low numbers per month, the idea of having enough hours to make it viable is the fevered dream of a madman.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Well, i'm not PVRing (yet!) but with the cumulative effect of allowances reform (not even close to covering costs) and JPA audits (being accused of fraud/thievery every time i place a claim) and continually being asked to do more with less...there's no support for those left in the job.

I agree with the comments above about 1st tourists - when i were a lad, you were always keen, seldom sober and in a Service that supported you in that job. Now, like all of us, their hindrances are fast outweighing their motivations - a very sorry state of affairs indeed.

Like many, i'm certainly questioning why i'm still here, and in truth just waiting for a better offer...:ugh:

[Lima Juliet]

Uncle G

Me too...waiting for that offer, that is...;)

[RumPunch]

Kinds confirms what many engineers have said for years, when the pilots start pulling the black and yellow then times have reached and all time low.

In 21 years I have never seen it as bad as this...

:(

[Eds Up Display]

Ps. How can the higher ups think the Air Force is anything but utterly broken and moral in freefall when they are using PVR waiting times and zero flying pay as a stick?

High_Expect - you're spot on with this point :D

There are many other valid points that have been raised, but don't forget .... I believe that many of the PVR guys (who have already completed their initial commission) were merely waiting for the right time to leave!

Time to chill & let the dust settle, the true impact will only be known in a year :zzz:

[Herc-u-lease]

RumPunch, you characterized the discussion i had this evening with a couple of serving chums. each and every one has a fall back in case it all goes sour. looking back say 10 years, we all knew someone who was "Mr RAF". The person who was determined to stay in, loved service life and was in it for the long-haul. Everyone had their gripes, but you could always find one person who was happy to be part of the mess furniture. I'm not sure I could find that man now (unless someone gives me Mr C Hinecap's address - jk), certainly not amongst my associates.

I guess it's a symptom of a perceived decline in loyalty from the top (meaning Government). Sobering times indeed:(

H

[wokkamate]

I suspect that Bristol Ground School would have some interesting stats for Service people applying to do the Mil Bridging Package for thier ATPL(A)/(H)s.

I agree with many of the other posters in that I have never seen it this bad in terms of 'conchy' chat - almost everyone I know well in the pilot world (and that includes several 'Mr RAF' types) is discussing leaving, either on PVR or at their next option. It seems we may not have much of an RAF left soon anyway!

[ShortFatOne]

"I suspect that Bristol Ground School would have some interesting stats for Service people applying to do the Mil Bridging Package for thier ATPL(A)/(H)s."

I was at their sister org (Bristol Flying College) doing my CPL/IR recently (I can highly recommend them if anyone is thinking of that route, I passed first time!). I bumped into one of the Groundschool Instructors who said that there was a whole course (11 people?) from Valley just starting the Mil Bridging Package.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Well, there goes 11 QFIs!

[jpboy]

To all thinking of PVRing but yet to get a licence could I please remind you that the licencing rules change Apr 2012 to EASA. I believe a Sqn Ldr + Flt Lt combo are currently swamped by a CAA requirement for a full training needs analysis to match the current bridging package with any potential new scheme post the change.

As I understand it (Beags pse comment) THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES THAT POST APR 12 MIL PILOTS WILL CONTINUE TO BE ABLE TO GET AN ATPL AS PER THE CURRENT BRIDGING PACKAGE.

I don't wish to add unnecessary angst in troubled times. However, as a current airline pilot (ex-mil) who has helped out at recent employment fairs and seminars I have heard several different trg organisations raising concerns over the issue. I am not affiliated to any such organisation and I don't believe they were scaremongering to raise trade. Bottom line is nobody at the moment knows what will happen to your system under EASA.

If it were me I would get the green book in my sticky mit asap. Good luck.

[BEagle]

The current system ends on 7 Apr 2012, so I sincerely hope that 22Gp will produce their conversion report proposals PDQ.....

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/620/f-FAQJune2011-linked%20to%20paperv4.pdf FAQ no 29 gives the CAA's current position.

EASA part-FCL requires Member States to give due recognition for knowledge, skill and experience gained in military service, just as JAR-FCL did. However, whereas back then there was a joint MoD/CAA Working Group involved, nowadays there's hardly anyone left at the CAA who would even recognise an aircraft - and even those who are still there are maxxed out with other matters. Hence the ball is firmly in the RAF's court - if nothing is done then even more people will simply not bother to wait for their 2000TT/1500PIC point and will just do the exams and pull the B&Y.

For which the RAF would only have itself to blame.

It will be interesting to see whether the years of progressive dumbing down of theoretical knowledge instruction in Learning Command will now bite the RAF on the bum....:uhoh:

[Alex Whittingham]

As a rumour service - is the whisper of 1000+ BA pilots required over the next few years true????

I've been told 1000 pilots over five years, that's only 200 a year and many will come from the Low Cost airlines looking for better quality of life. On the other hand that does create opportunities elsewhere.

[crashtest]

We The Willing, led by The Unknowing, commanded by The Uncaring, are tasked do the impossible for The Ungrateful. Doing more and more with less and less, we have done so much with so little for so long, that we are now capable of doing everything with nothing...

[overstress]

1000+ BA pilots required over the next few years

Yes, as Alex says, it's true. Lots of new shiny metal (well, composites, anyway) coming, new routes on the cards. :ok:

[2Planks]

It's OK Chaps - it's all going to be fixed by IBN 09/11 -

RAF STRATEGY FOR PEOPLE AND THE PEOPLE CAMPAIGN PLAN

Retreating behind the parapet :ok:

[Exascot]

Thank you 2Planks I needed a laugh. Wot personnel are they referring to there will no one left apart from the types who come out with this twaddle. Should really be posting this on the Friday Jokes thread:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/628864a8_ec65_bebf_c4c64ec02534493a.pdf

[Hueymeister]

11 QFI's? From where?

Re. the above..when I told a colleague recently that you can't polish a turd...he replied, '..ahhhh yes, but you can always roll it in glitter!'

Priceless!

[I'm Off!]

Huey,

Nice, I like that!!

[Dr Schlong]

Quote: 11 QFI's? From where?

I imagine that the Valley guys are some of the (un?)lucky studes who got laid off post SDSR...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I had assumed if they were doing the bridging package, they'd have to be QFIs. Most studes at the Valley stage would only have what, 200-300 hours?

[N_1]

'sidewayspeak' earlier in the forum said that it... "Makes me angry that MOD think they can hold us for 12 months when they have changed the rules such that post-2013 they can make us redundant with just 3 months notice"

Is this legal? It does appear to be an inequitable 'contract' where it is definitely to the advantage of the employer (the MoD) with nothing in it for the employee. Are there any examples of similar clauses/ conditions in other industries being successfully challenged in a civilian court?

[SixOfTheBest]

Apologies if this has already been mentioned in an earlier reply:

Am no legal beagle, but has anyone considered 'Constructive Dismissal'?

As I understand, it is an enormous grey area but stems from any case whereby:

'The employee has reached a point that an irreconcileable breakdown of Employer/Employee trust has occurred'

Don't just a few of the gripes/points raised so far constitute a 'breakdown of trust' and, as such, aren't they arguable in a legal sense??

I reckon a decent Employment Lawyer would have a field day in an ET.....

Just a thought.....

[The Old Fat One]

it is an enormous grey area

Hardly...it is point of employment law and as such is defined in very great detail.

Whether a legal eagle could make such a case stick would depend on three things...


Whether there is a viable case.
Whether your legal eagle knows his/her stuff.
How deep your pockets are (somebodies gotta pay and you ain't getting legal aid for this)
According to the last briefing from a law firm I saw (about two years ago) bringing constructive dismissal cases in the UK has become more difficult in recent years.

Anything is worth a try though..if you have the money (and motivation).

[minigundiplomat]

If you did put a case forward, its not a good lawyer you need - its a friendly editor.

At a time when the RAF is looking to make 5000 redundancies, and having laid off 170 pilots from the trg system, they would have to have a damn good reason for spending money fighting a legal case to keep someone in.

You don't always have to win the case, just kick em where it hurts enough times and they will let go.

[brit bus driver]

Ref 1000+ BA pilots....On the other hand that does create opportunities elsewhere

Sod elsewhere, creates lots of opportunities within BA is more to the point!!

:ok:

Coat for Jack please....

[Farfrompuken]

Strong rumours of 18 months just round the corner. :\

[Chris Griffin]

Have heard same - is probably due to a few more from the oxon superbase declaring their hands over last few days.

[Redcarpet]

With 18 months looming, I think it is time.:ugh:

[I'm Off!]

Bugger. Best everyone gets in (or out!) quick before 18 months becomes the rule...

[Just This Once...]

Do they still ring the bell when a PVR comes in?

If so it must be getting quite noisy on a certain floor plate at High Wycombe.

[high spirits]

The cleaner not happy then? Where will the int come from..??

[LFFC]

Never fear. As has been pointed out on another thread, there is an easy way to leave with 12 months notice and with no loss of flying pay in the process either. ;)

[Diablo Rouge]

I have been told that Manning are enforcing the Return of Service requirements for Rotary Aircrew to the point that guys who have made the 7 x JPA PVR mouse clicks in good faith (thinking they were good to go) have been told by Manning their application has been rejected.

This at a time of redundancy is an interesting development because I am sure we all know how cancerous disgruntled staff can be to a Stn never mind Sqn or Flt. It looks like Manning are shoring up the sinking ship and the damage limitations being executed will have a detrimental effect to an already rock bottom state of morale.

The MoD employed Civil Service Redundancies are out and not all applicants were succesfull despite 12,500 shortage of applicants for voluntary redundancy.

[ghostnav]

I think a bell does ring when the PVR button is pressed. The only problem is the bell is at Innsworth!

[VinRouge]

Be interesting if someone got some legal advice into all of this. It was my understanding, although i am possibly wrong, that the Crown no longer holds immunity wrt pemployment law. Rumour i heard third hand was that a good solicitor could get you out with 3 months notice IF you have a solid job offer in place. Anyone got any details on this?


If people want to leave, then you got to let them go and find out whats the problem. Holding a 20% pay cut like a gun to all our heads is just going to (and is) creating an "interesting" atmosphere on squadrons. Many can smell the blood already.

[exairman]

20% pay cut? Does your specialist pay include a retention factor? If you choose to leave then why receive a retention allowance?

[genuine question but you all need to be clear on what it is you are losing]

[Farfrompuken]

Ex airman, a sound point, however why continue to pay flying pay to those who have taken their option or turn down PA spine/promotion?

Surely the 'retention' aspect of Flying Pay applies to those people too? Otherwise aircrew are on different contracts without knowledge or consent?

Or are some more equal than others?

[rathebelucky]

Maintenance of Morale has been discarded along with a whole load of young, keen, (possibly) less cynical pilots, the next generation of experience.
Strange when we don't seem to need new pilots that the service should choose to ring-fence those poor weather beaten buggers already in, and beat them into submission with increasingly dirty sticks. Not sure what is left after 18 month PVRs come in, perhaps we could go all Victorian and re-introduce stocks and the lash (not the Friday night one).
At least we can lay responsibility at the foot of Flight Lieutenants and Flying Officers, those who have not been through the promotion system and been identified as having potential for 2 ranks above. It would be disappointing to think that the 'future senior leadership' could show such little, and make such poor decisions, especially if they have demonstrated their competencies by running a 'bloody good Summer Ball'.
Still, it could be worse........

[2Planks]

Indeed, the PVR brass bell (or ETBB?) is at H-W, analogies with the wooden portal on the outside facility during a period where the isobars are very close together are entirely appropriate.

[VinRouge]

Exairman, sure, take away flying pay. But that ruling should have also included a condition that the longest they can hold you to is say 6 months. At the time the fp ruling came in, they were trying to shed people. Now people are (unsurprisingly) heading for the exits, using it as a means usury to keep in those contemplating leaving is pretty pathetic and as commented elsewhere, very damaging for everyones morale. This, i suspect is what happens when blunties fiddle with allowances whilst manning try and control retention.

All it Is going to take is one test case for someone to demonstrate the rather dubious nature that is an18 month cut in fp while you wait at mannings pleasure,and the floodgates will open. Round abouts the same time that lots of the airlines are dropping their type rating requirements.

[The Old Fat One]

20% pay cut? Does your specialist pay include a retention factor? If you choose to leave then why receive a retention allowance?



Integrity and common sense.

Integrity because most contracts are based on mutual trust and the knowledge that they will not be changed willy nilly to suit the purposes of one side without the knowlege and agreement of the other. PVR is just a method of leaving, no different to any other (like coming to the end of an engagement). No problem if the rules of flying pay change...just don't do it retrospectively to people already in and serving.

Common sense because high calibre military people may be loyal but they ae not mugs. They will see straight through this and react accordingly. When someone has decided to leave, what you get out of them for their remaining time is a matter of goodwill. If you just shoved a 10 foot red hot poker up their jacksy, goodwill will be on the negative side of zero.

[Farfrompuken]

C M,

It's an ET but you retain full flying pay.

[Arty Fufkin]

All seems relatively simple to me,

No flying pay = no fly.

Upping the PVR times is a panic response to loss of pilots. A pilot removes himself from flying duties will have the same effect as one who walks. Do you expect a senior guy to pitch up take all the responsibility, accountability and hassles that gob with his job when you cut his pay to that of OC catering? (No disrespect to all the OC Chips out there!)

The 6 months on no FP was draconian but manageable if you thought that you only actually had do a few months before resettlement. A year or 18 months held in employment against you will on a 20% pay cut? Thats the biggest shafting I've heard of in a long time. Much nastiness around the corner I reckon.

Or you can always fail your fitness test.

[Pontius Navigator]

All seems relatively simple to me,

No flying pay = no fly.


And 'disconnect' your telephone. No out-of-hours early calls. Maybe they try to tell you a programming delay - no probs, turn up on time and start the duty clock running.

I once made the mistake of answering my phone on a Friday afternoon about 1700 when my leave ended at midnight. Saturday morning, 0600, I was out at about 15 west.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

I'm not sure what the issue is regarding Manning holding personnel to RoS obligations. That has - at least recently - been the case; that's part of the reason behind the RoS! I wouldn't be surprised if the MRA4 RoS remains valid!

Duncs:ok:

(There hasn't been a Nimrod thread for ages;))

[airpolice]

Arty, it seems simple to the rest of us as well.


No Flying = No Flying Pay.

That would save **** loads of money and resentment from the deskbound types. It might also concentrate the Pilots on Piloting and show just how overmanned that "trade" is.

[sidewayspeak]

Whether on PVR, or approaching option or 'treading water', if necessary it is easy to screw with the heirarchy using all the tools already mentioned:

- make yourself unfit to fly
- fail fitness test, out in 12 months anyway with no effect on FP
- forget how to spell and staff work correctly. Just throw it away.
- turn off phone
- etc

Once loyalty has gone, it is very hard for them to extract value from you.

[Pontius Navigator]

airpolice, unless that is deviation you have missed the point.

I think Arty meant that is flying pay was stopped then flying should also stop, ie a two-way street.

[airpolice]

Pontius, I fully agree.

The problem with supporting people taking "industrial inacation" as suggetsed by sidewayspeak is that some of the blunties don't think that aircrew should ever have been getting flying pay when not in a flying post.

I can see why some might want to quit on the basis that their T&Cs are being changed. It seem svery unfair if MOD can say you are no longer getting what you were getting, if the aircrew are unable to say the same.

[BEagle]

"No bucks = no Buck Rogers!" - memorable quote from The Right Stuff which seems somewhat appropriate.

I was once told that, many years ago, the Luftwaffe suffered an aircrew 'work to rule' for some reason or other. All very gentlemanly, but the day started with the aircrew reading every single order book and manual which they'd had to sign for. The external check of the aeroplane would be utterly meticulous and no corners were cut - same with the pre-flight checks, start up etc. As a result, the flying programme was soon in chaos..... No-one had been 'unprofessional' or refused to carry out any duties - whatever they were complaining about was rapidly sorted out!

Be careful of this 'turn off the phone' idea though - unless you're on leave. We used to hold 3 hours readiness at times; actually this meant 61 minutes as if we'd had to hold 60 minutes, it would have been a much greater embuggerance for all. Most understood this, but we had an Air Eng who insisted that he wouldn't respond in 61 minutes. So he was told that either he did so - or he could spend his readiness periods in the Sgt's Mess rather than at home. Another was called one morning and told that there was an urgent operational need for another jet to be on state - to which he responded "In that case, I've just had a pint of beer".

I'm rambling (again), but the moral is that if the RAF expects willing, flexible behaviour from its aircrew, cutting their pay and forcing them to stay in because they've asked to leave (after so many trainees have been sacked prematurely) is hardly likely to achieve that.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Airpolice, it's a tired old subject, but it's still better if people think of it as "aircrew" pay rather than specific "flying" pay. Someone might be in a desk job through no fault of their own and against their will, after all.

Anyway, the rule you mention is already in force. If posted to a non flying-related job, your flying pay freezes, and after 2 years it drops to 50%, then after 3 years it falls to zero.

That strikes me as unpleasant and unfair for someone posted against their will, but at least the main people struck by it will be people who stay away from flying (or flying related) jobs for more than one tour, which is exactly what the blunties seem to want.

Regarding PVRing, you can all take the moral high ground about "retention pay being removed when you're no longer being retained," but the aircrew world is rather unique in that specialist pay ends up as a rather high percentage of total pay. No matter whether it's an allowance or pensionable or not, I'm one of the people who can't afford to take a pay cut of several hundred pounds per month to leave.

[Arty Fufkin]

With regards to this whole retention pay guff:

If you are being kept in the service for a year or so against your will.........
You bloody well ARE being retained!!!!!!

If someone has a different definition of retention, please let me know.

[Willard Whyte]

Is it worth £500 to leave early?

If so look out for any by-elections in the future, I seem to recall one can leave immediately if one stands for election to the HoP. It would also be tremendously amusing to have a list of candidates that consisted almost entirely of disgruntled aircrew.

There's always the danger one could be elected of course, but I hear the pay and allowances aren't too bad.

[Willard Whyte]

All very gentlemanly, but the day started with the aircrew reading every single order book and manual which they'd had to sign for. The external check of the aeroplane would be utterly meticulous and no corners were cut - same with the pre-flight checks, start up etc.

Germans just living up to their stereotype, methinks.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, readiness is something else - part of the contract so to speak with accommodation on base available if you wish :}.

We used to hold that 2 hrs too with par time 2hrs to scramble being under the hour. On callout this chap living only 20 minutes away ambles in in flying suit confident that he will have been too late and they would go without his services. I was alert to his plans, intercepted him in the car park and drove him straight to the aircraft where I had already loaded his goon suit and parachute.

Up the steps, doors closed, and they were off in just 55 minutes :} - for 9 hours LOL.

As he was not working his passage, simply a waste of space with the execs ignoring all the signs.

[dropintheoggin]

Question related to PVR:

On a 16/38 permanent commission, if you elect to leave at your 12 year point (I assume everyone has the right to do this?) , is that classified as a PVR/ET? If not, does this mean you can leave on 12 months notice (as you have to tell them by your 11 year point) with no loss of flying pay?


Not everyone has the right to a 12 year point. Any PC Direct Entrant (non-graduate) is not given that luxury.

Also, I thought the zero FP rule hits next April so you'll get 50% until then. I guess it just means making a decision sooner rather than later to suck up the least pain financially.

[Lima Juliet]

If posted to a non flying-related job, your flying pay freezes, and after 2 years it drops to 50%, then after 3 years it falls to zero.

Which is going to be a nightmare considering...

Latest RAF IBN today details Project SIRIUS - the officers career stream. What does it mean?

Officers at Sqn Ldr and above will elligible for selection to the "Executive Stream" (ES) if they are to attend Advanced Staff College (ASC) from Sep 11. If they have attended ASC in the past and are 0-5yrs senior in rank they will automatically chop to the ES and if they have 5-9yrs they will be reviewed on a case by case basis. For the rest of the Sqn Ldr+ "has beens" they join the "Main Stream" (MS).

ES will get tours of 3years or less and MS will get 3years+ tours.

...which means for MS officers a posting to a non-flying related job will be instant loss of flying pay!!! :eek:

I do believe the lunatics (ES?) have finally taken over the Asylum...

LJ:hmm:

[Ivan Rogov]

Without wanting to sound like a shop floor steward at British Leyland in the mid 70's, it is time we had proper representation from a Federation!

In the past our T&C, standard of living, rights, etc. for doing a unique job were gradually eroded, however in recent time we have been treated atrociously. The BAFF are trying and have had support in the past from MPs and Parties

Browse our articles relating to armed forces personnel | British Armed Forces Federation (http://www.baff.org.uk/forces-personnel/category/97-parliament)

they seem the obvious choice to stand up for us but it seems the Government & MOD refuse to recognise them, they would much rather take forever to create a worthless "covenant" promising jam tomorrow on their terms :=

If the public and media really value us and want to help, campaining for an Armed Forces Federation would be the best way of showing it :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Is it worth £500 to leave early?

If so look out for any by-elections in the future, I seem to recall one can leave immediately if one stands for election to the HoP. It would also be tremendously amusing to have a list of candidates that consisted almost entirely of disgruntled aircrew.

There's always the danger one could be elected of course, but I hear the pay and allowances aren't too bad.

WW, this was a ploy last time there was a pull-push-pull, and it worked a treat. I don't know the details but I think they managed a weasel-worded get-out-of-jail card. Something along the lines that you had to be elected . . .

[Uncle Ginsters]

If you are being kept in the service for a year or so against your will.........
You bloody well ARE being retained!!!!!!

If someone has a different definition of retention, please let me know.

Surely the word you're looking for there is DEtention old chap?

[Arty Fufkin]

It's all captains because the co-pilots are still working off their return of service. Otherwise they'd be going too.

[dalek]

PN, in 1980 I knew one Officer who went one better.
When they told him he needed to be elected to get out he decided to enter the election as the Gay Lib candidate using his Sqn Ldr rank.
They let him out straight away.
He was arampant heterosexual, by the way.

[Biggus]

Surely in 1980 all you had to do to get out was admit to being gay (no proof was required) without all the standing for election rubbish....




As to why so many Tristar captains are PVRing, could it be because they have been told that they are highly likely to get a ground tour following the imminent folding of their fleet?

[Exascot]

(no proof was required)

Sorry I thought that you meant you were not required to produce your boy friend but I misread it. :hmm:

[BEagle]

As to why so many Tristar captains are PVRing, could it be because they have been told that they are highly likely to get a ground tour following the imminent folding of their fleet?

When all 'manning' can find is possibly a King Air QFI slot and you're viewed as a professionally attractive proposition by a major airline, the decision is largely made for you. Either go now or wait 5 years to leave with 5 years less potential airline seniority.

I'm amazed that it's taken the RAF so long to realise this.... Well no, actually I'm not :rolleyes:.

The Apr 2012 start of EASA part-FCL certainly doesn't help - and is currently causing what was recently described to me as a 'mad dash' for licence accreditation....:hmm:

[Trim Stab]

Aren't all the Tristar captains PVRing because there are nice shiny A330s to fly at the same homebase with much better pay & conditions? Or are Air Tanker still only recruiting current A330 pilots?

[Squidlord]

Leon Jabachjabicz:

Reading the 82 page DRU document and I see the MAA is going to die http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

Only to be merged with other safety outfits into the Defence Safety Authority...now where does that put all the MAA regulatory instructions, etc...?

The Defence Review only makes an informal recommendation that the MAA should be merged into the new Defence Safety and Environmental Authority (the Defence Review gets the name wrong). That certainly doesn't mean the MAA will "die". it doesn't even mean it will merge, since it is only an informal recommendation. And there's certainly no reason why the raft of MAA RIs, etc. will suddenly change status.

For those that don't know, the new DSEA, to be set up later this year, is to be concerned with all non-aviation MoD safety and environmental matters.

U.K. To Form Land, Maritime Safety Board - Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=7043842&c=LAN&s=TOP)

[Redcarpet]

If you want to fly an A330, I'm sure there are much better opportunities available than those presented at the Oxon Airbase. A dull grey Air Tanker one or a shiny red and silver VS one ?

[brit bus driver]

I think the recent activity at VS may go some way to partially disproving that theory. A red, white & blue 787 on the other hand....:E

[ACSfirstfail]

Definately a civvie A330 is better, when you see who the flt cdrs and boss are!!

[Hueymeister]

So what is the Airtanker Package then?

[Exascot]

Definately a civvie A330 is better, when you see who the flt cdrs and boss are!!

There have been other comments along these lines on this forum. They were all probably still at school when I joined 10 Sqn. I spent 9 very happy years on the unit. Four fantastic bosses and most of the flight commanders were great. I would like to say that one was exceptional but I am too modest :O. It is sad to hear these comments. However I always said when I escaped that all the good guys were leaving. That was 16 years ago. I guess that nothing has changed.