PVRs started.....

[Willard Whyte]

2P,

Mrs WW feels this thread, amongst others, is more akin to bitchfest on mumsnet than a pub.

[airpolice]

Leon wrote:Wouldn't happen today in this man's Air Force. The jellyfish at the top would have them under admin action and off to Casework in a flash - no common sense and it's all about "meeting targets" and "performance indicators".



Industry is spreading this problem to the armed forces. Nowadays the focus is on meeting the performance measurement criteria instead of being on performing.

[Tinribs]

May a long gone Airframe Driver who spent the last 27 years steering with ordinary people down the back add something to your thread. I perhaps ought not to appear as my commisions both reg and reserve are long expired but what I add may be of value to some of you

Five years ago the maximum age in UK for flying was 60, though some airlines retired earlier. The result was much the same, the retirees found work in other airlines for the next five years

Then UK went up to 65 but the French did not. it became problematic to fly over France in case of diversion. Most of my generation found work lower down the scale for a while and when the French were obliged to change to 65 there was more movement

The result of all this is that five years ago there commenced a much reduced incidence of experienced skippers leaving the industry, the effect lasted while we soldiered on masking the supply problem. We are now reaching 65 and on our way again with no probability of a further stay of execution

For the next two or three years there will be an added influence of increased retirements in airlines. It will not last

[Canadian Break]

Gentlemen
For God's sake what have we come to? Whoever got precious about ex servicemen posting here with "their" war stories - "dry your tears and jog on Princess". By your rules, we shouldn't give electron-space to those who have described gaining their wings in WW2 etc. Sort yourself out and have the decency to listen, or bu**er off!:= By the way - I'm still "in" for another 364 days - just so you know which side of the fence I am on!:ugh:

[Gocatcomplete]

Can I just say that their is already a forum for the retired amongst us. Its in the misc section called history and nostalgia. No other forum apart from the one already mentioned harps on about the past, so perhaps all you retired lot should post there and leave the "professionals who (currently) fly the non-civilian hardware" to discuss current policies and issues.
Or maybe we should have a forum called the old boys forum.

[PTT]

Those current serving pilots who are basically trying to gag the ex serving pilots can only be doing so for one reason: they don't like what they have to say. It's the internet equivalent of putting your fingers in your ears and going "la-la-la-la-la". Quite pathetic, really. Even if you don't like what someone has to say, you may learn something from it.

And yes, I am currently serving.

[iRaven]

Now then, do any of us ever really "retire" with this liability:

258. In addition to members of the reserve air forces who are liable to call-out as described above certain officers and former airmen may be recalled for service in the Royal Air Force. The difference from call-out is that they rejoin the Royal Air Force rather than serve in the reserve air forces (sections 65 - 77 and Chapter 2 of AP3392, Vol. 7). Once recalled, they must serve until released.

259. Liability to be recalled for service. Recall applies to any person not serving in the Royal Navy, the Royal Marines, the Army or the Royal Air Force or the reserve forces who:

a. Holds a commission as an officer, or

b. Has served as an airman, is under the age of 55, has not become an officer and it is not more than 18 years since he was discharged or transferred to the reserve (section 66).

260. The provisions of the 1996 Act do not apply to any person who became an officer or enlisted in the Royal Air Force before that Act came into force. Such personnel remain liable to recall under the Reserve Forces Act 1980 unless they have elected to be subject to the new provisions or have re-enlisted, re-engaged or extended their service after that date (s.66(6)).

261. Personnel recalled may be liable to serve anywhere in the world unless when they were last members of the Royal Air Force they were liable to serve only in the United Kingdom or any part of it.

262. Power to authorise recall for national danger, great emergency or attack on the UK. Her Majesty may make a recall Order, signed by the Secretary of State, when it appears to her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen, or in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom. It does not therefore apply to warlike operations, peacekeeping or humanitarian operations.

a. The making of an order must be reported to each House of Parliament immediately. Parliament must assemble within five days if it would not otherwise met.

b. Anyone recalled is entitled to be released (officers) or discharged (airmen) when his aggregate called-out or recalled amounts to three years in the previous six years, although the three years may be extended to five by order. Anyone may agree to serve beyond the set limit.

263. The 1996 Act sets out detailed provisions concerning the recall of personnel, their acceptance into, release and discharge from, service under a recall order.
from the RAF legal Service website at this link (RAF - Page not found (http://www.raf.mod.uk/legalservices/airforcelawsection6.htm)).

The 1996 Reserve Forces Act (Reserve Forces Act 1996 (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1996/ukpga_19960014_en_1))

Gives the following authority for recall:

(1) Her Majesty may make an order authorising the recall under this Part of persons to whom section 66 applies—

(a) if it appears to Her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen; or

(b) in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom.

whereas authority to call out the reserves for:

(1) Her Majesty may make an order authorising the call out under this Part of members of a reserve force—

(a) if it appears to Her that national danger is imminent or that a great emergency has arisen; or

(b) in the event of an actual or apprehended attack on the United Kingdom.


or

(1) The Secretary of State may make an order authorising the calling out of members of a reserve force if it appears to him that warlike operations are in preparation or progress.

or

(1) The Secretary of State may make an order authorising the calling out of members of a reserve force if it appears to him that it is necessary or desirable to use armed forces—

(a) on operations outside the United Kingdom for the protection of life or property;

[Gocatcomplete]

they don't like what they have to say.

That's because they have nothing up to date and relevant to add to the current PVR policies.
All they can add is "When I" comments. History and Nostalgia people, History and Nostalgia.

[BEagle]

Well, Gocatcomplete, if your few weeks on PPRuNe have left you feeling so hot and bothered about comments from retired aircrew, perhaps I should simply stop bothering to help all those who've contacted me with civil pilot licensing queries?

Or is your nickname merely a new nom-de-PPRuNe.....

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I have a PVR question. With a few (but not many) years to run to my 38 point, I see plenty of people recommending that I jump early. The line that's been trotted out here several times before is that "a few extra years' seniority with an airline is worth more than hanging around for the pension."

I can't get that to add up, though. Let's take a Flt Lt not far off my situation. Leaving by PVR at 34, he'll get about a £4k pension at 60 rising to about £9k at 65, with lump sums around £12k and £15k. That's from memory last time I played with the pension calculator at work, mind you.

Staying in until 38 and going for max commutation means he leaves with an immediate £10.5k pension, a £70k lump sum, and a £13.5k pension from 55.

If I quickly add it all up, it means leaving 4 years early loses you £300k in pension rights. Can you really make that up with 4 years' seniority at an airline with the Ts&Cs a new joiner is likely to be given? Are you really markedly less employable at 38 than 34?

Edit: I appreciate that you have to take quality of life etc into account, but I've not yet had my spirit crushed and reckon I could manage a few more years. I might prefer to do something else, but not if it results in an incredible financial hit.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Beagle,

Devils lawyer head on

"Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."

You are fast approaching 18,000 posts in here, you are also a civilian so looking at the above entry criteria how do you justify that :confused:

Devils lawyer head off :ok:

[RumPunch]

Leon well done for saying how it is.
I am an engineer , so far am seeing a PVR rate i have never ever seen in my 20 years of service.
Whoever is in charge ******* man up and take some balls as you are ******* it all up for everyone else. I love the RAF i love my job but its ***** like you who messed it all up.


sorry

[Willard Whyte]

You're in the wrong forum again Seldomfitforpurpose, try here:

Pregnancy | are my waters leaking?? | Mumsnet Discussion (http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/pregnancy/399725-are-my-waters-leaking)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Willy,

Still serving old chap so defo in the right place :ok:

[BEagle]

Willard Whyte, you might well be right there. With all his years of making tea for the flight crew, I'm sure SffP could be of genuine assistance on Mumsnet....

PVR people, the decision as to whether to stay to an IPP or whether to go early can only be made if the job market is buoyant. There are signs that major airlnes are now beginning to recruit and that ba, for example, are keen to employ ex-military pilots.

I should learn a lot more in 6 weeks time, if anyone is interested.

During a previous airline recruiting surge, the first year's pay rise alone covered a significant portion of the loss of gratuity for a Flt Lt with about 5 years seniority. But that was when airline final salary pensions were still around and just before the LoCo airlines ruined the status of airline professionals. Even so, there were many more non-pecuniary attractions in the service to aid retention than there are today, yet still there were so many pilots leaving that a significant pay rise was the only option to attempt to stem the flow. Due to the inertia of AFPRB recommendations becoming policy, ironically this pay rise was awarded at a time when the RAF was suffering cuts under Options for Change and there wasn't the same need to encourage recruiting or retention.

[Exascot]

I still wish you all the very best with your future plans.

To avoid thread drift I have posted in Jet Blast. No objections there I trust!

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/462164-do-you-have-required-attributes-post-particular-forum.html#post6668830

[The B Word]

Surely the fact that this is a PVR thread invites "those that have" and "those that are" to advise "those that may" and "those that will" - sorry but that is going involve "those that have left" as well!

Gocat and Sffp, as a serving member I invite those ex-regs, with a reserve liability hanging over their heads and also the older ones that don't, to join us on here. In fact most of their posts make more interesting reading than those that go on like an APU whine!

The B Word

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Beagle, Lunchbox, thanks. I see the greener grass but I worry that it might lose its lustre a bit if I stiff my pension entirely!

[Tinribs]

Avoiding carefully when I was, nostalgia etc because it seems to annoy

One factor many miss out on when considering pensions is a little known corner of the commutation rules viz;

If you commute some of your pension at retirement point and stash it the widdows pension remains unchanged.

Which do you prefer your widow to have? some of your pension or the same pension and a substantial lump sum in the bank

[wiggy]

The line that's been trotted out here several times before is that "a few extra years' seniority with an airline is worth more than hanging around for the pension."

You'll only know it's worth it financially with hindsight.......but even a few years is a h*** of a long time in the airline world - at best the youngsters joining any airline today will always be ahead of you in that hunt for a (perhaps higher paid command), at worse by the time your IPP comes around the airline world could be in lock down again.

Your choice, good luck whatever you decide.

wiggy

(member of the been there, seen it, done it (34/12 point :ouch:...then, now :) ) club)

[cazatou]

The B Word

Thank you for your remarks.

As a KOS Resident in France may I point out that Reserve Liability ceases if one becomes Resident Overseas - unless they have changed the Rules in the last few years.

[BEagle]

5 Forward 6 Back, assuming that the moaners don't object, I'll post whatever I find out from ba in 6 weeks time.

Actually, I'll post it anyway. As far as I'm concerned, if it helps you then it'll get posted on this site.

Pulling the B&Y at 34 will always incur some risk. When we first mooted the current military exemptions, we reckoned that 10 years should easily gain 2000hrs flying, with perhaps 2 front line tours and a QFI tour. 1500 hrs PIC (500 as PICU/S) was also easily attainable by 34, unless you were a thruster seeking high position - in which case you wouldn't have been interested anyway. So a new career at 34 looked pretty good - or hang on for the 38/16 year IPP as it was then, providing both a recruiting and retention incentive.

However, despite Bliar's wars, many may now struggle to reach the LASORS D3.3 point by 34; also the CAA has said that not all current LASORS D3.3 accreditation will continue. Hence the 'jump while you can' attitude we now see; equally others will have grown sick of groundhog days in the sand and will wish to leave for other reasons. I was amazed to learn recently that many ME pilots now have no experience in oceanic airspace - unbelievable! Even worse, many will only ever have landed at Brize, Akrotiri or in the north-west frontier theatre of operations. How will that retain peoples' enthusiasm?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Beagle, I'd appreciate that. I'm a little short of those hours, but as I mentioned, there's a light at the end of the tunnel with the fact that my fleet doesn't tend to offer back-to-back front line tours to pilots, so I'm unlikely to have to spend another 3 years away constantly.

It's still a tricky decision, as the possible amount of time away from a growing young family is the main "push" factor for me. I can let a lot of the other bull**** flow over me without elevating my blood pressure, so if I'm lucky with where the poster points me next I think I could see out my time.

[cazatou]

Gocatcomplete

I note it is only 58 days since you joined PPRuNe - during which time you have made 8 Posts.

You are currently apparently demanding that those who are no longer Serving should cease to post on the Military thread.

Could you please justify that viewpoint ?

Yours Sincerely

A KOS.

[Exascot]

As I have received over 20 posts on http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/462164-do-you-have-required-attributes-post-particular-forum.html, in just under 5 hours, supporting my point, I feel that I am qualified to post here.

The B Word:
Surely the fact that this is a PVR thread invites "those that have" and "those that are" to advise "those that may" and "those that will" - sorry but that is going involve "those that have left" as well!

Thank you.

How pathetically short-sighted and parochial these people are. They need to find out our experiences and get feedback?

I am sorry I can only blame the current lack of strategic managerial training in the Royal Air Force for their attitude. Goodness knows what they concentrate on at JSCSC as I believe it is these days.

Us 'oldies' as you refer to us as are pleased to help and advise. We have been there and done it. You guys have not which is why you are procrastinating. Some of us are not that old actually and have considerable experience and seniority both 'inside and outside'.

[brakedwell]

5 Forward 6 Back
In your position I would stay in to secure a pension. BA might be entering a recruiting phase, but you could miss the employment boat if the powers that be delay your exit. The economy is in a perilous state and the airline industry is extremely vulnerable. It will only take the failure of one medium sized UK/EU airline to flood the UK market with experienced type rated pilots, reducing the employment prospects of newly released military pilots. When I PVR'ed in 1974, aged 37, there was also a deep recession and airlines were shedding pilots. If I had not had a Britannia type rating on my shiny new ALTP I would not have found a flying job in UK. It was luck and experience on type that secured the job. Six years later the airline went bust, fortunately I had already left and joined a start up airline at it's inception. Twelve years on this also failed, but age was against me this time and I was unemployed for nine months. My RAF pension helped tide me over until, with luck and experience on the right aircraft type, I was taken on by a European Airline until I retired. Today, there appears to be more job security, but terms and conditions have been badly eroded. I also think the current practice of airlines making money by selling type ratings and flying experience to desperate young pilots, then spitting them out, is unethical.

Again, best wishes and good luck to everyone who has decided to leave and to those who are still struggling with the most difficult decision of their lives.

PS. If SFFP wants to continue stirring he could let off steam on the Cabin Crew Forum.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

brakedwell, thank you for the advice.

[Tinribs]

5&6

I cannot support brakedwells avice too strongly

My route was different, I was much luckier

I flew the Viscount in the RAF and so left with an easy intro to British Midland where I stayed for 6 months and was then dumped for the winter
After 6 months on the JP at Shawbury I left because it was obvious the job was doomed and rejoined Midland on the Viscount

They expanded and I was in the left hand seat of a brand new 737 two years later. After a spell in management I was moved on at 60 because of the French airspace rule, Sir Michael and his lot were very good to me over the years with some rough patches

After leaving BMI I went to Eastern for the five years up to 65 and have recently retired for the third and probably last time

I was very lucky, things have changed a lot. Throughout those years the knowledge that I had a pension made it possible to take risks that would not have been wise

Best of luck mate, keep trying, be diligent, work with nice people, the best assett you can get is a good wife to see you through the tricky bits

[Ali Qadoo]

5F6B

As another KOS, I'd definitely agree with brakedwell and Tinribs. I was in a similar position and literally a few weeks before my 34/12 "Dear Queen, I quit" decision date I was offered an exchange tour somewhere hot and sunny flying the latest all-electric wonder jet (not made by British Aerospace needless to say). Staying in another 4 years was therefore rendered painless - turned out to be the best decision I could've made. In the end, on leaving at 38 I decided not to pursue an airline career and now telecommute from a very nice part of rural France.

I've no idea how desperate you are to leave, but to chuck away a pension pot worth £300K in the expectation of jam tomorrow is one hell of a gamble - the airlines may stop recruiting or, heaven forbid, you may lose your medical cat etc. Annuity rates are garbage and may even get worse.

Wishing you the best of luck whichever way you decide to jump, but all I'd say is, look long and hard before you leap.

[Exascot]

Exascot says:

Quote:
So, this one time, on bandcamp, my crew went queer-bashing.

Be grateful for my funny stories and sage advice younguns.

Very droll CASBO. Get back to your boring office.

[Surplus]

Good luck to all in the coming Tranche 1 announcement.

[cazatou]

brakedwell

What on earth have the Cabin Crew Forum done to deserve SFFP?

[brakedwell]

I thought they might appreciate his sense of humour :E

[cazatou]

brakedwell

More Humous than Humour!!!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Why am I suddenly minded of

lhmjnYKlVnM

Not a uniform in sight, how very apt........sleep dry you two :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

Edited to add the use of the smileys denotes there is no personal attack intended, it's simply the use of military humour which one or two on here may be a bit out of touch with :p

[2Planks]

As ever, Matt in the Telegraph hits the nail on the cranium!
Matt cartoons witty political cartoons and satirical sketches - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/matt/)
:D

[Whenurhappy]

For all commissioned officers who are leaving (or intending to leave), make sure that you register with the Officers' Association. Their Pick of the Week Job List (latest issued yesterday 30 Aug) has an advertisment from Qatar Airways seeking pilots.

Hope this helps.

[deltahotel]

And here are their minimum requirements:

Flight Deck Crew Requirements | Qatar Airways (http://www.qatarairways.com/global/en/flightdeck-req.html)

This can be helpful:

Pilot Jobs Network - for students of pilot schools and experienced airline pilots (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/)

Good luck to all

[cazatou]

SFFP

Once again you have demonstrated your inability to distinguish between "Banter" and "Inanity".

PS. You have pride of place on my "Ignore" list.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SFFP

Once again you have demonstrated your inability to distinguish between "Banter" and "Inanity".

Caz,

I am sure someone recently stated that "If you cant take a joke you shouldn't have joined" wise words eh :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p

PS Forgot to ask before but I hope you enjoyed as much as oh so many of us did the recent outcome to the Mull travesty :ok:

[TryHarder]

Well, I can see the banter in here is sharp, so I'm ready for a broadside for having the temerity to ask:

Does anyone know of airlines out there who appreciate (2000hrs+, QFI, ME) ex-mil pilots, are recruiting currently, and do not require a type-rating up front?

I'm currently at Bristol Ground School doing my ATPL exams, along with about 40 other RAF/RN pilots - which gives a good indication of the level of 'push' currently being felt!

The question remains, where is the biggest 'pull' coming from....?

TH

[brakedwell]

Tryharder
In your position I would apply to British Airways and Jet2 for starters.

[deltahotel]

Agree - look at Jet2. Qatar also if you fancy the sandpit. DHLAir uk if you can get your head round working out of East Germany - PM me on this if you wish.

[VinRouge]

Arent there some taxation issues for working DHL out of Germany at the minute?

[deltahotel]

There are, as yet unresolved. It doesn't seem to be a stopper for recent joiners - I will see if I can get the latest state of play this evening.

[Lima Juliet]

Was in Manning (officers and aircrew) today and heard the PVR Bell ring at least 4 times - I suspect it will become more like a firebell tomorrow!

[Party Animal]

LJ,

A nice line but how on earth can anyone be fooled by your story when Manning have assured us that it all lies and rumour that any aircrew are PVR'ing.

Having said that, I know of 2 Nimrod pilots who have recently applied but they have probably been discounted as the Nimrod no longer exists!:rolleyes:

[chopabeefer]

Had a wonderful chat with a lovely Wg Cdr today. She informed me that she has approx 45 chaps working for her who all do (without semantics) the same job. Fifteen applied for redundancy. Not one of them got it. 17 of her chaps, though, were made redundant - and she told them last week. She was absolutely incensed and clearly cared very much for 'her guys'. In a nutshell, she said 'I had guys who wanted it, and not one got it. I had guys who absolutely did not want it, and 17 of them are off - and all my guys do exactly the same job, or near as makes no difference.' She was absolutely gutted and said she felt sick at the RAF's actions.

She believes the system has deliberately penalised those who applied (by not granting it), and crucified others to show 'the RAF can be ruthless'. The facts seem pretty obvious.

If we were to sack every single officer in the RAF of Gp Capt and above and replace them with officers who have served less than 12 years, I am firmly convinced the RAF would be more efficient, more operational, more angry in War, more benevolent in peace, and more sanguine when ruminating over decisions between the two.

War is a battle between people, beliefs and values. At a base level. soldiers are motivated by the basest of instincts, so are governments. The courses at JSCSC are too high brow and whilst they are correct, and true, they are absolutely irrelevant.

We are lost. We have the power to find our way, and perhaps the will. But it is to our junior brethren we should look. The old guard have failed, despite their best efforts.

The RAF has the potential to realise it's ability. The ability to show to others that the UK still represents excellence, power, and a quiet but resolute determination to promote fairness. But sadly not under it's current leadership. We should make it clear, en masse, that enough is enough and we will not be led, blindly, into an abyss so a senior officer can get his pension. One day we will all be dead, and answer to our God. What will he say to you?

[Melchett01]

Chopabeefer,

Well said that man :D

Melchy

[gijoe]

Chopabeefer,

Like the above, very well said.

G:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Mrs SFFP took voluntary redundancy from the County Council earlier this year, does not regret it at all and is enjoying the life of the lady who does lunch. She received an email from an old colleague yesterday saying the CEO has just been given his marching orders as part of the cost saving measures, perhaps we could learn from this :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Chopabeefer

Spot on me old apart from "Gp Capt above" would not stop the rot- there are too many already indoctrinated at Wg Cdr/Sqn Ldr level who have done the "college of knowledge" at Shriv.

We've been at war for many years now but we continue to promote, encourage and produce "managers" instead of "war leaders". Which is one of the reasons why I'm off. I'm a dinosaur for the Nu-RAF and I'm leaving on my terms rather than become increasingly bitter as I see more political back-biters go into Gp Capt+ go above me.

There are still a few good people but they are becoming more and more a rarer breed...:sad:

LJ

[Rigga]

"There are still a few good people but they are becoming more and more a rarer breed..."

Now that's a quote I remember from the mid 70's, at least.

It seems that whatever the "Era" we're ending, there appears to be another one just around the corner.

[FFP]

Where are we with the rumour that PVR times may increase to 18 months in the not too distant future ?

[Airborne Aircrew]

Give it 30 more years and the Armed Forces won't need service numbers... Everyone will know each other.

:(

[Biggus]

chopabeefer,

One would like to think that, as a senior officer, the Wg Cdr in question would know how the redundancy process was run - after all, it wasn't exactly a secret, full details were published in a IBN.

At the end of the day, it was a points based system, where (no doubt to make it easier for the board) they ended up with a situation whereby the more points you scored the less likely you were to be made redundant.

Points were awarded for a variety of things (I can't remember them all, and I haven't got a copy of the IBN to hand), including volunteer or not, medical cat, disciplinary record, qualifications/skill sets and performance.

For most of these you got a score of between 0 and 5, with two notably exceptions I will expand on. The performance figure was arrived at by a board of 3 (hence the redundancy selection was referred to by some as a reverse promotion board!) who scored 1-9 each, giving a possible performance score for an individual of between 3 and 27. Hence you can see that the performance score dwarfs all the other scores.

If you were a volunteer you scored 0, a non volunteer scored 7.

So, a volunteer (0 points) who was doing a good job and got a performance score of 22 would have more points than a non volunteer (7 points) who wasn't doing as well and got a performance score of 14 (don't forget, more points equals retention, less equals redundancy!). Throw in a few differences in skill sets, med cat, etc, and volunteers/non volunteers with more similar performance scores than the example I quoted might find that it is the non volunteer who actually ends up with the lower points, and is made redundant.

It is the performance score that makes the biggest decision on who went and who stayed, and what did the board use to come up with their score, previous appraisal reports.!!

Your Wg Cdr said she had 45 guys doing the same job, but I bet they had a range of appraisal reports, some were inevitably doing the "same job" better than others - that is a simple fact of life. At the end of the day it was that Wg Cdrs actions, as an RO, in helping produce appraisal reports, that probably ultimatey decided who went and who stayed in her section!!!

Now one could argue that the volunteer/non volunteer point differential, 7 out of an average score of 30+ (i.e approx. 20%) wasn't high enough. Alternatively one could argue that the RAF should let all the volunteers go first, and only then board non volunteers. However, from the "company's" point of view, why shouldn't it retain fit well performing individuals in preference to unfit individuals who aren't performing as well? (Balance the needs of the team (RAF), task and individual?)

A tough call, especially if volunteers aren't made redundant and are kept in but become disgruntled. But how many times do people say it is a good chance to clear out the dead wood, sickies, etc? I'm not sure which side of the fence I fall (hence I used the phrase "one could") in terms of whether the policy used was the best/right one. Whatever system is adopted someone will inevitably consider it "unfair".

You could argue that the system adopted was imperfect or imbalanced - but the idea that you say this Wg Cdr has that the RAF DELIBERATELY PENALISED THOSE THAT APPLIED????? Especially when one considers that statistically (ignoring whether or not certain trades were under or over subscribed - which I don't know - for example, 10 redundancy slots for chefs and 15 apply, 10 get it but it looks statistically as though some applicants didn't get redundancy, similarly if there are 10 slots for MT drivers but none apply, they all become compulsaries. All such nuances confuse the overall picture.) that two thirds of those that applied for redundancy got it - her argument doesn't hold any water whatsoever! In fact it sounds highly emotive rather than rational.




Edited to add - In the RAF there were 620 applications, 440 were approved - approx. 71%, hardly indicative of a policy of penalisation??

[serf]

A Wing Commander in charge of 45? No wonder redundancies were required.

[Whenurhappy]

Choppabeef - you make some interesting points but I do draw you to the attention of Biggus's post about the process (qv IBNs, DINs, ad naseum).

I agree with your points about some very senior officers - and some aspirant VSOs (Wg Cdrs/Gp Capts) - who have been honing their chisels on Whetstones for years. JSCSC is one entry mechanism to this exclusive 'club' and some officers have made it to at least 1* without having done ACSC, but woe betide officers who have attened a foreign staff course - now that will be held against you.

Johnny Foreigners knowing about war? Utter tosh....

[Melchett01]

The courses at JSCSC are too high brow and whilst they are correct, and true, they are absolutely irrelevant. and

JSCSC is one entry mechanism to this exclusive 'club' and some officers have made it to at least 1* without having done ACSC, but woe betide officers who have attened a foreign staff course - now that will be held against you.

Johnny Foreigners knowing about war? Utter tosh....

I never thought I would say it having spent years preferring ops to staff work and thinking that doctrine was just dull tosh done by those less punchy types with the sicknote from Matron, but during a recent JSCSC lecture given by an excellent Brigadier, he made the point that doctrine is the foundation of what we do. We don't have to like it, but we do have to understand it (I make no excuses - I don't really like or understand it particularly well). As he put it, you would hope that a surgeon might have a passing knowledge of anatomy and physiology before he opens you up - to say you 'don't do doctrine' is like that surgeon 'not doing' anatomy.

But, and it is a huge but, we have become so beholden to it to the extent that rather than being used as guidance, it is the ends ways and means not to operational success but a successful career for thrusting types, who either use it to make up for a lack of real-world operational understanding or the inability to get people to do things because they are the right thing to do at the time and not because it is written in some doctrine note. And that is the problem. Unfortunately in the current political and risk-adverse times, the doctrine-wallahs are very much in the ascendency. After all, follow doctrine and it all goes wrong you can blame it on the doctine.

As for Johnny Foreigner not knowing about war: I would have thought our rapid about turn on the COIN front having sat back on our Borneo / Malaya / NI laurels for too long demonstrated that we don't have all the answers. Subsequently watching the US military show us how modern COIN needed to be done should be a salutary lesson that we might not be as good as we like to think we are.

That said, I would still rather share a bird table on ops with a senior operator who is pragmatic and flexible enough to take / leave doctrine as required by the situation at the time than a full on doctrine-wallah.

[Red Line Entry]

An excellent post by Biggus, but I think it will fall on deaf ears. The information on how the redundancy is/was run is all available out there, but it's much easier to fall back on conspiracy theory and the mentality of, "we're great, you're OK, they're crap".

[Widger]

I claim no credit for these words but they are very useful.

The term indoctrination (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Indoctrination) came to have awkward connotations during the 20th century, but it is necessary to retain it, in order to distinguish it from education (http://www.pprune.org/wiki/Education). In education one is asked to stand as much as possible outside the body of accumulated knowledge and analyze it oneself. In indoctrination on the other hand, one stands within the body of knowledge and absorbs its teachings without critical thought

So it could be argued that Doctrine merely churns out process monkeys! Seen lots of those!

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Biggus
For most of these you got a score of between 0 and 5, with two notably exceptions I will expand on. The performance figure was arrived at by a board of 3 (hence the redundancy selection was referred to by some as a reverse promotion board!) who scored 1-9 each, giving a possible performance score for an individual of between 3 and 27. Hence you can see that the performance score dwarfs all the other scores.

If you were a volunteer you scored 0, a non volunteer scored 7.

So, a volunteer (0 points) who was doing a good job and got a performance score of 22 would have more points than a non volunteer (7 points) who wasn't doing as well and got a performance score of 14 (don't forget, more points equals retention, less equals redundancy!). Throw in a few differences in skill sets, med cat, etc, and volunteers/non volunteers with more similar performance scores than the example I quoted might find that it is the non volunteer who actually ends up with the lower points, and is made redundant.



And there you have the corrosive recipe for discontent.

Standby for sweeping generalisations...

Hor d'ouvre:-

The RAF reserves the right to choose (fair cop) but uses a reverse promotion board (corrosion sets in) with an additional offset for volunteers (outrageous!)

A volunteer (generally speaking) would be someone who has a bit of go in him, a bit of ambition, and is fed up with the RAF.

A non-volunteer (possibly) might be working his ticket/less ambitious/less talented etc.

Main Course:-

Some people who want it, don't get it, and vice-versa. The unsucessful volunteer PVR's

Desert:-

That non-volunteer gets the full (and generous) redundancy package
The unsucessful volunteer PVR's & gets sod all.

Leftovers:-

Those left behind are demoralised, overworked, bewildered...and going to have to attend the others' leaving functions!

SPHLC

Five failed redundancy attempts, and proud of it.
(Left in April on a Med Discharge)

[brakedwell]

Those left behind are demoralised, overworked, bewildered...and going to have to attend the others' leaving functions!

Assuming the "others" are available to attend.

I didn't go to my own farewell dining out night at Brize because I happened to be down route. Enjoyed a good night in Louca's Bar instead!

[1.3VStall]

brakedwell,

You were lucky to be offered a dining out night, even if you couldn't attend.

My farewell when I left after 27+ years was a corporal in P2 at Strike Command (remember that?) who said "best of luck sir" as he handed me a temporary F1250 to allow me to exit the site!

[LFFC]

Biggus:
"However, from the "company's" point of view, why shouldn't it retain fit well performing individuals in preference to unfit individuals who aren't performing as well?"

One reason would be to ensure that the overall numbers don't plummet below the requirement. Do you really think that those people who were really keen to leave, but weren't selected, will hang around for very long? I suspect that most of them will be gone 12 months from now and then you'll see shortages develop - just like after the last redundancy round.

A much more realistic approach would have been to select all of the volunteers for redundancy, and then use the reverse appraisal to decide who goes compulsorily. I'm probably wrong, but legally, I thought that was the way things had to happen within each trade/qualification/skill.

[cazatou]

I left in the '96 Redundancy and the eulogy at my Farewell Dinner was provided by the AOC.

[Tourist]

Not being funny, but while it would be lovely for those who want to leave to get redundancy, as they will probably go anyway, what they should have done is take no notice of preferance at all.

The only good thing about redundancy is the chance to get rid of dross.
The dross will never volunteer because most of them know they are dross and may never get such a good gig again, and the good guys who want to leave have no complaint since they new the deal they signed up to.

The guys who want to go will leave anyway, albeit annoyed, but at least you have chopped some dead wood.

[chopabeefer]

Many interesting and simulating posts - thank's all for your intelligent and relevant replies.

As far as appraisals go, the Wg Cdr made the point that some who left were 'weak', and others were strong - there was no consistency - weak people stayed, strong people were thrown out, and vice-versa. The only thread she could identify was that everyone who applied was rejected, and everyone who was thrown out, did not apply. Similar jobs and reports, and some good went, some stayed, some weak ones went, some stayed - she was adamant that if somebody had deliberately only thrown out those who wanted to stay, and kept volunteers, it could not have been more obvious. I stand absolutely by my comments.

Far more important to the future of the military is this:

When we look to our leaders, we look for someone we can follow. Who is that? Who would you follow - who do you aspire to be?

It must be a person of character.

That simple.

A person of character.

A person who has the courage of their convictions and will defend what they believe to be right, not matter the consequences. They must be scrupulously honest, and work for the greater good - the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one. That last sentence rules out every Boss I have ever had save one. He was superb, and decided that as he was not a YES man, he had no future, and he left (Now a Trg Capt with Aer Lingus - an absolute star) - the RAF's loss. I had a female Sqn Boss also, in the early noughties - she epitomised bullying, selfishness, and cared nothing for her people - the RAF loved her (or at least the AOC did - less said the better...). She was hated by everyone who worked for her. Fortunately she left in a fit of picque when she was found out and not promoted - there is some justice I suppose. She got where she did for obvious reasons - an example of leadership? - no - an example of how not to treat people?? and an example of what happens when a bully is put in charge? Absolutely. Disaster.

Our leaders (CAS, CDS etc) are lost, and they must know it - When we watch leadership videos, or do courses at JSCSC on leadership, we exclusively look to leaders from the past for our lessons. Is that a lesson in itself? (rhetorical - answers not req'd)

We are better than than this. We really are.

[Willard Whyte]

Amen, chopa. Amen.

Too late for me; I wish all the good guys and gals that remain all the best.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Beefer,

Top post, I just wonder if one of us enlisted filth had posted such heresy would it have been received so well.

30 plus years has taught me that in general the stuff that the College of Knowledge instills means that any questioning in the ranks means said individual is chipped.

The sooner folk come to grips with the fact that every bolleaux decision made in all 3 fighting arms is as a product of an important person the sooner we could get to grips with this sad sorry state of affairs :ok:

[davejb]

Our leaders (CAS, CDS etc) are lost, and they must know it - When we watch leadership videos, or do courses at JSCSC on leadership, we exclusively look to leaders from the past for our lessons. Is that a lesson in itself? (rhetorical - answers not req'd)


Answers not required, but you'll get some anyway <g> An extremely well made point, is there anyone who hasn't been trained to be Gregory Peck in 12 O clock High? (Although one enjoyable CRM course did centre on Blackadder joining the RFC under Lord Flasheart).

Actually I found quite a lot of officers I would have followed, I think good guys existed at least until 2000 when I left, but part of why I left was the realisation that the good guys often didn't get very far while some absolute gits went up the ranks like rockets. I think the highest ranking chaps I encountered who I'd willingly follow were one stars - one of them from the fast jet world who I only worked with a few weeks. Some good guys did better, I liked them when I knew them (Sqn Ldr/Wingco level tops). They might be great guys, but how promotion affected them I don't know (but hope for the best).

SFFP - I think us enlisted (and ex) filth are often accorded a very respectful (sometimes positively indulgent) hearing, you'd be a happier camper if you'd discard that big chip...don't automatically go for the stereotypical disgruntled NCO act, you're probably better than that but your natural humour and cuddliness isn't coming across well and it undermines the points you make.

Dave

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SFFP - I think us enlisted (and ex) filth are often accorded a very respectful (sometimes positively indulgent) hearing, you'd be a happier camper if you'd discard that big chip...don't automatically go for the stereotypical disgruntled NCO act, you're probably better than that but your natural humour and cuddliness isn't coming across well and it undermines the points you make.

Dave

Dave,

You really could not be further from the truth if you tried but you fall into the classic trap that others do when someone rather bluntly points out the elephant in the room.

Pretty much everything we buy is either late, over budget, not quite what actually asked for or a combination of all 3.

Pretty much everything we buy is signed for by the offices cadre or their MOD equivalent.

To not recognise that is plain daft but as you have aptly proved to mention it always always always invites the "chip" quip.

Imagine how much money would have been saved over the years if all 3 services had employed specialist purchase folk. Folk whose only job was to deal with industry, not worry about promotion, not be moved every 2 or 3 years and who already had all the smarts needed to deal with industry and get us precisely what we want.

Instead of criticism please show me where I am wrong, as I said no chips here just a healthy dose of realism.

[nice castle]

We do, they're called the PT, and they do a grand job, don't they?:{

[FantomZorbin]

Pretty much everything we buy is either late, over budget, not quite what actually asked for or a combination of all 3.



Totally agree.


Pretty much everything we buy is signed for by the officers cadre or their MOD equivalent


Almost right, the significant majority of those with 'signing powers' are civil servants within the Commercial Branch, a situation which they protect strongly.


Imagine how much money would have been saved over the years if all 3 services had employed specialist purchase folk. Folk whose only job was to deal with industry, not worry about promotion, not be moved every 2 or 3 years and who already had all the smarts needed to deal with industry and get us precisely what we want.


Alas this is the current (within the last few years anyway) situation. Those 'procuring' (lovely word!) have been in the job for years and, most, hold qualifications from the Chartered Institute of Procurement and Supply. They deal with industry daily and their mantra is 'Value for Money'(VFM). HOWEVER, they tend to look for the easy options which look good on the minute sheets of the contract file e.g. a VFM saving of £5k which cost an extra £50K over the life of an 'enabling arrangement'. FURTHERMORE, and this is a major issue, the system is geared to ignore where the Humgrummits or Widgets are going to be used, in what conditions and the dexterity of the hapless s@d that has to use same whilst fatigued, in the dead of night, frozen/boiled, soaked/sandblasted.

Then there is the numbing bureaucracy where a draft contract will meander from desk to desk awaiting someone's attention ... but that is another story!

I regret to say that I speak from experience.

[davejb]

Also, the problem with specialist purchasing folk is they're a bit like middle to senoir managers... fall into the trap of thinking anyone with technical knowledge of what's actually under discussion is 'too close to see the whole picture' - I'm not convinced that the real problem isn't the balance of power between those who have a good idea of what we want (the sharp end or ex sharp end blue suit input) and the civvies from MoD etc who are good at being hosted and don't always have much actual idea of what the kit needs to be like.

That's not to say that the blue suits are always working towards getting the right kit, or that the CS are necessarily ignorant of what they should be asking for, good and bad on both sides... but both need to watch the civvy supplier like hawks, and in my limited experience I found very few who seemed to think that important.

Dave
(Apologies if this doesn't read well at the end of the Chinny dining in night thread).

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

When I read absolute tosh like this I immediately wonder how the **** Mr Branson made his way in the world :rolleyes:

[davejb]

Fair enough,
in my past life I was involved for a while in procurement as a v low level part of the blue chain - the general idea that the blue suiters knew what they wanted and were frustrated by CS and suppliers was not what I saw... I saw the suppliers making damn sure that they got their way more often than not, in a rather more determined fashion than the CS and blue were prone to behave - resistance was non-existant. It was all far too cosy, and that seemed to me to be the root cause of not getting it all sorted efficiently - I can easily imagine BAE manipulating CS/RAF by presenting a united and well drilled front, especially if you juggle the RAF around every couple of years to ensure lack of continuity.

It's basic tactics to attack an enemy where their forces meet - supplier drives in between CS and RAF, CS and RAF find they're not quite on the same hymn sheet while supplier insists it's all going great, job done - rubber stamped for another 3 months....

The bit you are wrong in, SFFP, is in your assumption that you have people who are trained in procurement and also know what they want - what you get is people who know what they want, and people who know procurement, and unfortunately they tend to think each other always has the wrong end of the stick and end up working at odds with each other.

Dave

[Lima Juliet]

Sffp

Branson got lucky in his very early days when he set up Virgin records - a company selling records at very much discounted prices to his student mates from borrowed premises in a cellar. His overheads were so low that he could afford to undercut the High Street significantly and we all know that Students like cheap.

Granted in later life, he has developed into a sound business man, but if he had not had his piece of luck in the late 60s and early 70s he would not be where he is today. Sir Richard suffers from dyslexia and so was unlikely to have ever secured a place in a good business school...

LJ

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

LJ,

Branson is nowt more than a lucky illiterate chancer who is now worth more money than I will ever be able to comprehend.

The military employ some of the sharpest minds on the planet but cant even collectively negotiate a sensible price on a photo copier cartridge.

Your point is what Sir:confused:

[FantomZorbin]

SFFP

I'm afraid you are misinformed. The military is NOT permitted to negotiate on costs or the Terms and Conditions of a contract ... only MoD Commercial Branch does that.

[day1-week1]

Richard Branson makes no secret of how he became a millionaire airline owner. I once saw an interview where his advice was 'first become a billionaire.......then buy an airline'.

[Party Animal]

Very subtle by Saint Evil but I think the wink at the end was a bit of a Combat Indicator!

Meanwhile, how is the RAF shaping up on the virge of PVR extinction? Has anyone noticed any drastic reshaping to maintain capability? Has anyone lost any leave covering the gaps?

Or is it all quiet waiting for the Tranche 2 outcome? Just interested.

[Mach Two]

Yep,

Lots of people waiting to see what happens. Then things may start moving a bit...

[Lima Juliet]

I always thought that Wg Cdrs were the Sqn Cdrs of SAR Sqns (22 and 202)? Surely, Sqn Ldrs are the Flt Cdrs (Eg. OC 22 Sqn A Flt)? :confused:

[2Planks]

Yes Sir Richard is an ecellent entrepreneur - but his best piece of luck was the tip off that the Revenue were going to raid so he could remove all the imported records (no VAT paid) from his shop with moments few to spare (see his autobiography). Without this his story would have probably stopped there. Add to the that the suceess of Tubular Bells and hey presto!

[Melchett01]

I'm afraid you are misinformed. The military is NOT permitted to negotiate on costs or the Terms and Conditions of a contract ... only MoD Commercial Branch does that.

And they do it so well don't they :\ Maybe it's about time we got some professional contract negotiators involved rather than relying on 'enthusiastic amateurs' .

[Courtney Mil]

Melchett,

It's very wrong of you to call them "enthusiastic amateurs". Some of them aren't at all enthusiastic.

[chopabeefer]

I see Big Brother has hit the Censor button. Does not change the meaning of my post one iota. Bullies will always be found out, and get their just desserts. People promoted due to their gender, despite lack of ability and very questionable morals, will be revealed for what they are. My original thread remains. Who is the boss you aspire to be? I bet most are hard-pressed to name one. My own experience on an RAF Sqn based in the eastern Med working for a genderally different from me Boss showed that promotion due to sex is an appaling mistake. A Sqn Boss should be honest, capable, moral, a person of integrity, and command the respect of their personnel. This Sqn, at this point in time, was an abject lesson in what happens when this was not the case. One of the lowest points in the RAF's illustrious history. I had the honor of serving under a superb Boss, he fought for his guys, maintained exemplary personal standards, and defined what most on the Sqn wanted to become. He PVR'd as he believed the culture in the RAF would only promote 'yes' men. How right he was.

[Training Risky]

Whichever spineless moderator deleted mine and others posts, posts in which we spake the truth but took care not to name names, please have the moral courage in future to at least identify yourself and explain which 'rules' were broken.

Consider yourself rebriefed.

[sidewayspeak]

Why was my post deleted?

All I said was can we stop the tread drift on discussing the female sqn ldr. Big brother out there?

[muttywhitedog]

3 Tri-Star pilots have Pvr'd and several Herc guys too.

C-17 guys have quite clearly had enough given the constant tasking.

Many Vc10 mates have spent around 6 weeks 'not on Det' this year to date.

And more cuts yet to happen.

At least there is end in sight in Afghanistan and Libya.....:=

The exodus begins!!


As this thread started on 21 June 2011, I'm guessing that these people have either gone or are about to go.

So, did the exodus happen? Or are C17s, VC10s, Tri* & Hercs still flying?

[StopStart]

Lots of us indeed left or are in the process of leaving. The aircraft were never going to stop flying because a chunk of the pilots leave; cracks get papered over, the world turns and it's as if we were never there. Happy days. Your experience may walk out the door but that's not quantifiable on a spreadsheet so has no bearing on anything.

Certain fleets were assisted by the exodus. Crews being sacked because there are no aircraft to keep them current on - a few PVRs frees up yet more flying for the baby captains currently getting by on one trip every other month.

As a historical footnote, my uncle opined this Christmas that my leaving bought to end 84 years of continuous RAF service by my immediate family: grandfather, father then me. As my father then dryly observed, that probably goes some way to explain the shocking state of the RAF today :}

[llamaman]

Just an observation, but; not ALL of the 'experience' is leaving, SOME of it is. The military is constantly evolving (i.e. shrinking at the moment), PVR is part of the process of allowing people to leave rather than making them redundant. It's interesting that throughout the (short) history of the RAF there are those, e.g. stopstart's Dad, who have and will always describe it as being in a 'shocking state'. They tend to be the same kind of people that read the Daily Mail and rant about everything that exists outside of their own cosy little world.
Many actually choose to stay and adopt a more pragmatic/progressive outlook and approach what is still a rewarding career without the frequently negative viewpoint of the majority who inhabit this forum.

[StopStart]

None of my family read the Daily Mail thank you and my father doesn't inhabit a "cosy world". Thank you for your charmingly ill educated assessment though.

It is indeed a rewarding career and I would and do still recommend it to people; I had a superb time and thought I would carry on doing so until I retired. You will, as I did, reach the point however where the horse**** outweighs the good **** - pretty much everyone does. I enjoyed it for nearly 22 years - outlasting 95% of my contemporaries.

You crack on being pragmatic and progressive though - I did. For bloody ages.

[llamaman]

StopStart,

Apologies if I hit a raw nerve there, you have every right to be disillusioned.

BTW, ill educated should be hyphenated, 'ill-informed' may have been a more appropriate phrase. I'm not sure the careers office would have said yes had I been ill-educated!

Regards,

LM

[StopStart]

No raw nerve. Good hyphen monitoring though, you'll go far - its that sort stuff that'll get you promoted :ok:

[llamaman]

StopStart,

Your frustration and slight bitterness does not warrant a dig at me.

For what it's worth, the choice of PA precludes further 'career progression' as far as I'm concerned, despite my grammar Nazi tendencies! I wish you luck outside if that's your choice but, I guarantee, the same issues and people that p*ss you off right now all exist elsewhere. The short-term liberation of PVR'ing is very soon superseded by the dawning realisation that, as part of any corporation, it's very much the same everywhere. If you're very lucky, you'll realise that it's your own state of mind that makes you happy, not the appalling state of x,y or z, or the desire to be doing something 'better'.

LM

[BEagle]

Stoppers, the sheer Groundhog Day monotony of supporting the legacy of Bliar's worthless military adventurism must be a key push factor for even the most avid reader of 'King and Country'....

Back in the days when I was teaching you 'aerobation', a whole variety of military aviation roles was available to the brave young aviator / aviatrix. Surprisingly, I found 3 years of child abuse at a UAS to be quite fun, thanks to the people we trained - but even that's gone now. I had an e-mail from a TriShaw mate yesterday who's finally banging out to fly for Sir Dickie B's lot. Five years of nothing but flogging back and forth to the North West Frontier was the final straw....the days of Calgary etc. seemed a distant memory. Who can blame him? It seems that, these days, some of the RAF's AT captains have never even operated across the Atlantic...:oh:

As for what RW people will consider to be a 'rewarding career' once the UK is no longer licking Spam bottom in support of invading other peoples' countries, I cannot really imagine.

By the way, how goes 't clog and whippet language course? Can you recite Albert and 't Lion without error yet?

[llamaman]

BEagle,

I'm not entirely sure what your point is aside from the fact that, if you're not happy, get out. It has ever been thus.

A rewarding career is not necessarily related to a diversity of flying tasks (although this helps) and it certainly does not require involvement in Operations in support of Uncle Sam.

At all levels it relies on an individual's belief in what he or she is doing is worthwhile. That applies to anybody, military or civilian, in all walks of life. We all have stories to recount of 'better' times but they are somewhat irrelevant. Indeed, there was always somebody during those better times that would get on their soap box and declare that everything was sh*t and recount their own story of better times. Unfortunately their voice was (and still is) often the loudest.

It's nice that this forum provides an opportunity for the serial whiners to air their grievances. I only wish that those more positive (I know you're out there!) would post more often.

LM

[Biggus]

llamaman,

"....StopStart,

Your frustration and slight bitterness does not warrant a dig at me.

...."


So what warrants your "dig" at Stopstart's dad? A person you have never met. Perhaps you don't consider that your comments constituted a dig.


For what it is worth, I thought it obvious that Stoppers comments were very tongue in cheek........

[Easy Street]

I am actually quite interested to see how we fill our time post-HERRICK. Once the rotations through pointless 6- or 9-month deployed staff tours have gone, and the pre/post-deployment cycle for the flying units has become defunct.... then what? Are we going to go back to a kind of 1980s working routine, without the backdrop of the Cold War?

However some "too clever by half" people have 'protected' all of our good deals (including many North America dets) by designating them as pre-deployment (rather than routine) training and funding them from contingency funds (rather than dwindling core funds) - so presumably many of these good deals will disappear once the contigency funds dry up. And I am sure that the flow of fantastic new initiatives from each and every branch of HQ AIR will keep us all buried under a mountain of trivia.

Not sure which way it will go - but happy enough to stick around to see. God knows I'm glad to have a stable income and a decent pension plan!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Perhaps you don't consider that your comments constituted a dig.


I suspect he knew precisely what he was doing.

[llamaman]

Biggus,

Interesting interpretation of 'tongue in cheek'.

There was never any intention to offend StopStart's dad, if you read the post carefully you'll see that I never directly did, it's just one way of reading it. That was never the point anyway.

Consider me chastised.

LM

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

it's just one way of reading it.


Are you Miss D Abbott per chance :confused:

[Biggus]

llamaman,

Interesting that in terms of your own comment you say

"there was never any intention to offend StopStart's dad........... its just one way of reading it"

Yet when I say that StopStarts own comments were obviously tonge in cheek you call it an "interesting interpretation"....


Perhaps if you applied the same latitude of interpretation to other peoples comments that you would ask them to apply to your own then things would run more smoothly.....

[llamaman]

Biggus,

Things would run a lot more smoothly if you checked your spelling and grammar! The cut and paste bits were fine though. ;)

Before you take the bait and bite I only wanted to try and represent the slightly more positive outlook, something that is sadly lacking within this forum. I shall leave you all to revel in your collective doom-mongering.

LM

[Biggus]

I take it by "you're" you mean "your"? As for my spelling/grammar, I try to make an effort, but I'm not a senior officer, nor did I do ISS, so I have to get by with what I picked up at school.


Nice quick change/correction of your previous post.....


Who said I was doom mongering? I just don't like double standards.

[llamaman]

That'll be a bite then.

Way, way too easy!

LM

[Biggus]

I thought you said you were leaving......


If it was just bait why did you bother to correct it?

[StopStart]

I'm not in the slightest bit bitter old chap - I made my decision and am quite content. There is no "short term liberation" on PVRing, just a sense of "well, that's that. Best I find a job".

I also certainly didn't intend to "dig" at you any more than you intended to suggest that my dear old dad was a ranting old Daily Mail reader :ok: My original comments were colossally tongue in cheek and were intended to infer that my family's lengthy involvement in the RAF were in some way the cause of all it's ills :hmm:

I am however under no illusion that everything in the great outdoors is going to be rainbows and sunshine. Far from it. Please credit me with some intelligence. The prospect of flying civvy bores me hugely. What it does offer though is the ability to stop caring about yet more trips and exercises being cancelled, crews not getting enough training or the latest bit of vital kit being delayed yet another 6 months.

Go to work, get paid, go home is fine with me. Dull but fine.

Slight sadness to be leaving a job I loved and thought I'd do forever but not bitter at anyone or anything. When I signed on to PAS I said I'd stay in until I stopped enjoying it; when I stopped enjoying it (in a train-into-the-buffers sort of way!) I resigned. Simple enough.

Ultimately though I worked with some great people, went to some exotic places, did some cool **** and generally had a blast. And got sent home from a war. Brilliant :ok:

[llamaman]

SS,

Good luck to you, I meant no offence to you or any of your family. Just an attempt to try and make a positive statement amidst the (sometimes justified) rantings within PPRune. We all have to make our choices :)

LM

[ralphmalph]

Gentlemen,

"You will, as I did, reach the point however where the horse**** outweighs the good ****"

May I suggest that today, this exchange is woefully in favour of the ****!

Regards

Ralph

[On_Loan]

As they say though, the grass isn't necessarily greener, just fertilised by a different type of ****

[betty swallox]

ralphmalph

Agree strongly!!

llamaman..get life!!!

[cazatou]

bs

Anybody who can get a rise out of Biggus cannot be all bad. In fact I think he managed that rather well!!:ok:

[Uncle Ginsters]

On Loan,

I preferThe grass isn't greener, it's made of astroturf :}

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

I also like:

The grass may not be very green, but at least there is some.

[Rigga]

I have found really green fields of lush grass interspersed with deep dark Muddy lakes.

You just have to learn to recognise what's green and waddle or swim to it.

[JliderPilot]

Does anyone know the benefit of choosing which day of the week to be your last in the service? I have read somewhere that there is a benefit to your pension of leaving on a certain day...

Could be utter rubbish but I have the choice so money better in my pocket.

P75 and served more than 22yrs:)

[muttywhitedog]

Monday - then you get paid for Sat and Sun, which are non-working days.

[cazatou]

mutty

The RAF has obviously changed dramatically since my time if Saturday and Sunday are non-working days!!!

[teeteringhead]

I prefer the Stephen Fry version (just the words I mean!) The other man's @rse is always cleaner!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

mutty

The RAF has obviously changed dramatically since my time if Saturday and Sunday are non-working days!!!

Since joining in 1974 Saturday and Sunday have never been considered as working days.

[glide1]

Saturdays and Sundays were classed as working days back in the early seventies. The old 48 hr pass was supposed to be used if you wanted a weekend off.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Saturdays and Sundays were classed as working days back in the early seventies. The old 48 hr pass was supposed to be used if you wanted a weekend off.

My ancient recollection was that the 48 hours pass was part of the usual leave application form which again AFAICR also included working days/PH/SD etc as tick boxes, hence Monday to Friday has always been classed as the normal working week.

Unless the mists of time have finally taken my senses away from arriving at Bzn in Jan 75 as a lowly LAC till today Admin Wg etc etc have never formally worked at weekends at any unit I have ever been posted to.

[glide1]

Just because Admin wing did not work weekends doesn't mean it wasn't classed as working days. The old leave passes also had boxes for the 48 hr pass. You were officially required to apply for a 48 hr pass for any weekend you would not be at camp. In practise you only ever did this when you where taking other leave. As most sections just allowed personnel to go home at weekends the 48 hr pass passed into history.
Each section was still required to achieve 67% manning within 2 hrs of a station recall. These days they would be hard pushed to meet that requirement.

[BEagle]

I guess it was about 12 years ago that the leave system changed? Before then, trying to take a long weekend invariably meant losing days of leave.

The new system of 'Not Required for Duty', or whatever it was called, suited me perfectly as it meant that I could travel abroad for a weekend without losing leave. Travel to the airport on Friday, arrive Friday evening, then 2 complete days abroad before flying back on Monday morning using only 2 days leave instead of 4. I did that at least 15 times after the system changed before I left and flying with 'buzz' from Stansted made it very affordable. But that coincided with a period when operational deployments were relatively few....

Admin Wg at BZN not working at weekends? I certainly saw them working late into the night on occasions and at the weekends when the situation so required.

[Jambo Jet]

Now that there are no redundancies in tranche 2 for pilots, guess that bell at manning will be ringing like Billy-0

[Mr-Burns]

JJ

...... RAF in 'Also employing Navigators' Shocker !!!

[Party Animal]

Maybe that's why there were no WSO's in Tranche 2. They will be filling all the staff posts (again) made vacant by PVR'ing pilots.