PVRs started.....

[Bob Viking]

I love the comments about the new execs. It seems to me that the main issue is that they're all quite young. Please tell me you are basing your assessments on something more solid than the fact that they're, heaven forbid, younger than you are. I seem to recall a certain Wg Cdr Guy Gibson VC DSO* DFC* was only 26 when he led the dambusters raid. Age didn't seem to be an issue back then!
BV:rolleyes:

[Exascot]

Please tell me you are basing your assessments on something more solid than the fact that they're, heaven forbid, younger than you are.

I am sure that there are distinguished gentlemen on this forum who have had the unenviable and challenging job of both introducing a new aircraft into service and recommissioning a Squadron. Regardless of some comments, I wish the new execs of 10 Sqn all the very best and only time will tell if they are the right personnel for the job. :hmm:

[3 bladed beast]

Well, all the PVRs have certainly got manning having a closer look!!

Expect a round of visits to ' get to the bottom of it all'

:ok:

[chopabeefer]

Visits from manning? I am not sure why they would bother - in my experience they simply skew the relevant facts to fit their own paradigm. The RAF is becoming an ever-worse place to be...terms and conditions eroded, fewer aircraft and bases, more commitments, rampant contractorization/civilianization, fewer allowances, JPA etc etc.

Now add to the mix the fact that there are jobs 'out there' - all my mates who are leaving or have recently left, have found good flying jobs (mostly very experienced rotary guys and there are hods of positions for experienced guys out there). Out of the recent tranche of chaps let go from the rotary pipeline at Shawbury, almost ALL have been hired by Cathay. The guys who were saved and are still in are now genuinely questioning who got the shafting...The market is on the up (at least for now). Manning may say that the current upturn could reverse, and the airline/helicopter world could shrink. That's correct - that might happen. But what we know WILL happen is that the RAF will get smaller, older and ever more stretched. Life in the RAF gets worse year on year. manning do not need to do visits to ascertain this - they need to ring any chap on any squadron - if he/she is not on Det.

Then - crucially - they need to LISTEN. They need to stop dismissing people as whingers and accept that we wanted to join, and many want to be here, but people have valid opinions and manning should take heed. Life outside, at the moment, is better. More flying, better career prospects and not insignificantly, more money (a LOT more in the case of rotary guys).

Manning must know this. If they don't, they are incompetant. If they do, nothing has been done, which would make them incomp...:hmm:

[Willard Whyte]

It's hard to see how the (apparent) outflow can be stemmed. All the problems mentioned in the thread can, by and large, be solved with one thing - Cash. Be it more training to a variety of countries, better t&c, better allowances, better pay, better accommodation, etc. etc.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

There's not enough money to fix it, though, nor enough time, is there?

Better training in more countries? Not enough people because of op tempo, and not enough airframes; both too tricky to fix.

You could improve accommodation, or make it much cheaper, but that again takes time and I don't think there are that many people leaving because of frequent postings or poor quarters.

Better T&Cs, allowances and pay just get shot down because of the op tempo and the fundamental problems; remember, every time someone mentions an FRI, people compare the extra £20k gross per year to an extra 5 years' seniority at an airline, and it seems a simple choice.

If you wanted to keep your mid-30s guys in, the only T&C change I can see working is making flying pay pensionable. But with the new "executive" stream versus "main" stream system, can anyone see any assimilation being available in the near future? If PAS is going to be closed for a while I can't see that being an option.

For an FRI to work it'd need to be 2 or 3 times larger than the last one, and you can imagine the headlines as we mix that with redundancies...!!

[Widger]

lets not forget that it is not just Aircrew that are leaving but among all the supporting trades as well. Making Flying pay pensionable will not stop the rot either!

[Willard Whyte]

5f6b,

Exactly why I said it's hard to see how they can stem the outflow - it can only be fixed by something we don't have.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

If we are looking to save money why even bother trying to stem the outflow. Plenty of capable folk waiting in the wings to step up so why not let those unhappy with their lot simply walk, save a tidy sum on FRI as well.

[Willard Whyte]

Regarding the pilots who are PVR-ing, manning was (supposedly) working on having the correct number in 3 years time based on normal outflow.

[minigundiplomat]

manning was (supposedly) working on having the correct number in 3 years time based on normal outflow.


At the same time as increased op turnaround, JPA, non-existent allowances, poor leadership, redundancies, and general penny pinching?

Which 'tard thought that one up?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Maybe the people on my fleet facing ground tours can head down to 45(R) and get through a re-role course instead then? Maybe all these empty Tristar cockpits can be a silver lining...

[A2QFI]

Not knowing what is going on right now I can't understand why these capable people waiting in the wings aren't needed right now and in flying posts already. I would not have thought there was much slack in the system to cover the next 18 month's exits

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Right then chopabeefa, you've certainly caught my attention there. Any tips as to where I can get ALOT more money in civvy street on Rotary?

[FlapJackMuncher]

According to The Telegraph, not enough are PVR'ing!

[Widger]

FlapJack,

Subtle difference actually. Not enough people are applying for REDUNDANCY. Plenty of people PVRing. The PVR mob clearly do not want to wait around to be told to go and are taking their own initiative.

[Sideshow Bob]

5 Forward 6 Back

Maybe the people on my fleet facing ground tours can head down to 45(R) and get through a re-role course instead then? Maybe all these empty Tristar cockpits can be a silver lining...

Maybe if the last OCU hadn't already started.

[Jabba_TG12]

There's not enough money to fix it, though, nor enough time, is there?

Not any more. The time to do that was about 10 years ago..

You could improve accommodation, or make it much cheaper, but that again takes time and I don't think there are that many people leaving because of frequent postings or poor quarters.

Again, the time for that was in the early-mid 1990's upto early 2000's and for the most part, the lack of leadership, political will and concentration on greasy pole climbing shot that in the foot. What was done was peicemeal and in some cases, plain daft - new SLAM for instance at places that would close within 5 years. Surely, it is not beyond the wit of those who decide to have at least some vision, knowing the overal strategic direction?

And I thought things were being badly led when I was in... blimey. Glad I got out when I did. :(

[minigundiplomat]

Subtle difference actually. Not enough people are applying for REDUNDANCY. Plenty of people PVRing. The PVR mob clearly do not want to wait around to be told to go and are taking their own initiative.

I have a suspicion those PVR'ing are those not in a redundancy field, and therefore those the RAF can least afford to lose.

[StopStart]

The PVR mob clearly do not want to wait around to be told to go and are taking their own initiative.

That's right. PVR instead of redundancy. Especially when redundancy only offers an extra £50k odd to go :rolleyes:

MGD is quite correct in his assessment; of all the PVRees that I know none featured in any of the groups eligible for redundancy. Still, their master plan seems to be working - clearing out all of us crusty old PAS types who sit around all day knowing what we're on about.

[wokkamate]

19 PVRs and counting at RAF Odiham........would the last one out please turn off the lights! WTF over. :sad:

Thats just Pilots I believe - a few Crewman are on their way too

[chopabeefer]

Manning should be all too aware of the fact that people have options (38,44 etc), but I believe that another factor will also ramp up the number of PVR's in the very near future: The PAS terms of service.

Those on PAS have a 5 year RoS in order to actually qualify for the rather enormous PAS pension. There are a shed-load of QHI's (my world - sure it's similar elsewhere, just don't know about plank-wing stuff), about to hit that mark. I could name at least a dozen QHI's who are just waiting until the pension is in the bag, and then they are off.

Would an FRI make me stay at that point? Of course it would - I'll be 43 (rapidly approaching) and Mrs Beefer and the Beefettes don't really mind what I do, as long as the bills are paid and the annual pilgrimage to a hot beach is not jeopardised. Everything I see, read, and hear is screaming at me to get out whilst the going is good. An FRI is all that would actually make me stay - I'll accept a timebar to 55, and sign it tomorrow, but it will cost £250k in my hand (ie after tax). Why 250k - well personally, I don't actually need any more, but I wouldn't stay for any less. I know chaps who would stay for 100, and guys who would not stay for any amount. A mere fraction of the cost of training our replacements. But hey, this is manning - the people who just made a load of pilots redundant, and are now worried because we don't have enough - something which was blindingly obvious to absolutely any frontline Flt Lt with half a brain.:ugh:

[minigundiplomat]

blindingly obvious to absolutely any frontline Flt Lt with half a brain.


We are fairly safe then........:E

[wokkamate]

MGD - Cheeky Fecker! Can I borrow half of yours then please? :ok:

I just despair really, I still love my job (hence why I am not going to PVR just yet) but the fun has been taken away from us. We are all happy to work bloody hard and spend (on average) 6 months of every year away from home, but there has to be some give back wether it is AT or decent exercises or pay increases or decent rates and allowances. My point is unless people genuinely enjoy what they do and feel valued by those above, they will walk, especially if the job market in Civvy Street is on the up. The crisis point is approaching, what will they do?

I suspect, nothing. :ugh:

[Biggus]

I would suggest that a visit from Manning is very much a case of closing the stable door....

As to what they (Manning) will, or more likely can, do. It will depend whether loss of manpower is widespread, or confined to certain pinch point trades (e.g. in this case pilots).

Any measures to address a widespread loss of manpower are likely to be very costly to implement, and therefore not likely to get past the Treasury, and will take a long time to have any real effect.

By contrast, addressing losses in certain specific trades is much easier and cheaper. The two standard methods of carrot and stick will be adopted. The carrot, perhaps an increase in the size of the FRI to £150,000 or maybe even £200,000. The stick, an increase in PVR times to say 18 months, and longer return of service timescales.

[minigundiplomat]

perhaps an increase in the size of the FRI to £150,000 or maybe even £200,000.


Dream on - to justify the expenditure, they would have to explain why they laid off 170 pilots......

[Diablo Rouge]

....and its not just pilots. CH47 Crewmen are leaving also to the point that at any one time 6xPVR have names attached. A month ago it was 9. I do not know workflow fiqures but can speculate that those through the door are not filling the gaps left by those out of the door, and that is before you start on about loss of experience or folk being given responsibility by default before they have the experience and capacity to do it justice. A few have had their PVR rejected due to RoS which is akin to a little finger in the dyke for a torrent on a later day.

[skaterboi]

Dream on - to justify the expenditure, they would have to explain why they laid off 170 pilots......

Yes but those 170 pilots were in the training system and the FRI is supposed to target experienced peeps approaching IPP.

Saying that I still don't think £150K or more will happen.

[Biggus]

I'm not a pilot, or a rotary crewman, I won't benefit from any FRI, I don't have any personal interest in this matter..........and I did say "perhaps" ;)




Just speculating in response to the "..what will Manning do...." question!

[minigundiplomat]

Biggus,

that's understood mate. Still reckon the bean counters will laugh at any request for money for FRI's.

[high spirits]

Hate to mention it, but there are a bunch of Merlin Mk 3 Aircrew about to fill the PVR slots at Odi, if they don't PVR themselves of course!!

[chopabeefer]

The RAF have made a load of aircrew redundant to save money - nothing to do with numbers or anytning else - they could have 'held' for however long - as has happened in the past.
So, the RAF now need to go to MP's and explain that they are paying huge FRI's for the same reason they made people redundant. It is simple - they say to MP's 'We made people redundant because we have no money to train, and we need to pay FRI's because we have no money to train'. They explain that a chap approaching an option (38,44 etc), or 5 years on PAS etc - is getting 250-300k because that is less than a tenth of the cost of training his replacement if he leaves., It is plain numbers. Forget (as others have mentioned) experience etc - the Gov't are really thick, and MP's and senior officers care onlty about appearance, about what will get them (re)elected or promoted - we all know this. It is about money - senior officers patently don't care about the people who work for them - that much is obvious from the self-serving and constantly defeatist decisions that they make - but here is a 'win'. They can SAVE money and make the RAF more effective by paying a bunch of money to retain their best pilots and avoid (for the time being!) training their replacements.
FRI's , if correctly aimed, will save millions. Unfortunately, manning will be the ones taking the shot.

[Willard Whyte]

Still reckon the bean counters will laugh at any request for money for FRI's.

Let us hope they laugh as long and as hard about the number of people leaving.

And no, I've no vested interest, I'm not a pilot.

[BEagle]

FRI's , if correctly aimed, will save millions. Unfortunately, manning will be the ones taking the shot. Cue a lot of bizarre trades getting huge bonuses whilst aircrew leave in droves...

There is not a hope in hell of the scale of FRIs being suggested on this thread - it simply won't happen as it would be hugely divisive.

I'm not convinced that, unlike the late 1970s, salaries and allowances are the root of the RAF's current malaise. From what I hear, it seems more the constant operational tempo, lack of variety, primitive working conditions, shagged out old aeroplanes, fleets being cut, bases being closed....

Is it surprising that so many pilots have PVR'd? Hardly.

[Chainkicker]

Quite true Beags (probably!)

I dont think it ever is just down to money. Quality of life has always been the driving factor to those I know that banged out (myself included).

constant operational tempo, lack of variety, primitive working conditions, shagged out old aeroplanes, fleets being cut, bases being closed

Add to that poor accomodation at plenty of of bases (single and married), erosion of the work/life balance, continual feeling that you're getting shafted over T&Cs, allowances etc etc

It all adds up to not enjoying the good bits as much, because they're now outnumbered by the bad bits... :ugh:

[VinRouge]

It may not be about the money, but offer people enough, and they will suck it up.

Seeing as they cant fix the wound (old ac, no variety, poor/non-existent training) a short term sticking plaster (250K FRI?) will have to do. :ok:

Do I think it will happen? Not a chance!

[Exascot]

Have the so called decision makers ever studied Frederick Herzberg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Herzberg) and his motivation theories? It is not just financial remuneration. I was promised the earth to stay on after my 16/38 point. The few colleagues of mine of similar seniority who elected to stick it out made at least Gp Capt, three Air Rank. What are the chances of this in the current shrinking Royal Air Force. There doesn't seem to me any future for anyone looking for promotion. However, I must say that I enjoyed my job more in rather than out. But, that was 16 years ago.

[Lima Juliet]

Yup, Project SIRIUS has done it for me. I am 3 years substantive in Rank but according to SIRIUS I will become "Main Stream" on 1 Sep 11 - effectively, that means I am now "done" and have no chance of advancement in Rank or a Command Tour. Even with a B+ "Yes" on my last OJAR after 3 years in Rank.

So this was the straw that broke the Camels back - it added to the lack of SFA, potential pension changes, changes in Flying Pay rules in ground tours (which would be a disaster under a 4 year SIRIUS posting), resetting of leave at each tour change, 2 year pay freeze and allowance cuts (which probably amounts to a 15% cut), CEA changes (including non-INVOLSEP in London posts) and the ever shifting sands that are DRU/Defence Transformation and the Command Structure Review (that HQ Air have so far taken 2 years to implement and all we have seen is an extra 2-star post!!!).

I can honestly say, I have never seen morale so bad, and I have seen some VERY good people PVR recently who would not fit redundancy (I also do not fit the redundancy trawl, hence my decision to resign my regular comission).

So I have squared myself a new job, one that I enjoy doing, and I will be leaving Autumn/Winter 2011.

LJ

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

Yep, I totally agree. Lets pay less money to keep guys in who are older, usually have greater family commitments, and who are less adaptable to the needs of the service (be it cost cuts, extended deployments, reduced allowances).

At the end of the day, it is the needs of the service that are important. The deal everyone receives can hardly be described as atrocious. There is a queue (quite literally) of people ready to step into our shoes, so regardless of experience, if you are deadwood and unable to adapt to the change, move over and let a new generation carry the baton.

Let us not forget that the service can continue with an experience shortage. With the attitude of some on here I can genuinely say that we are probably better off without your toxicity.

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

LJ,

I am not sure that they have thought about the implications of 'Main Stream' v Fg Pay yet.

Duncs:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Alexander,

A little strong but not far off. For every Sqn Cdr there are plenty of Flt Cdrs capable of moving up, and there are plenty of extremely capable deputies in all roles.

The constant drip on here about loss experience is self inflated tosh. Not guilty of "bigging himself up" but one of the best assets in the J world has told us on here he has had enough and for a whole bunch of grown up reasons he is off.

There is no doubt he will be sorely missed but i would bet my mortgage he has lined his successor up to ensure that normal, or as close to normal service continues once he has departed.

Two great analogies about those who think they are oh so important,

Put your hand in a bucket of water and when you take it out notice that nothing has changed.

On your final day in the service, having said all your goodbyes, as you get to the main gate nobody gives a **** if you turn right or left.

Experience my arse, put your papers in and let the next equally as capable guy/girl have a go :ok:

[The Old Fat One]

On your final day in the service, having said all your goodbyes, as you get to the main gate nobody gives a **** if you turn right or left.



Oh so true.

And not just of the service...it is true of virtually every job you ever leave.

Told my son that just last week.

[Lima Juliet]

Believe me, I don't believe that I am of unwarranted importance, however, as a collective I believe I may be one of a "thousand cuts" about to be inflicted on quite a sick organisation at the moment. There have been twice the numbers of PVRs this year in the first 6 months. I rather suspect that this will be a tip of a very large iceberg. Why?...

There will be a raft of those hoping for redundancy that won't get it. They will already have prepared themselves to leave, and when they don't get it, they will PVR just after 1 Sep 11. Yes, there will be some quality individuals to fill the gaps, but I suspect not enough. I also believe that some squadrons will end up with a dilution rate worse than that in the late 90s (about 65% diluted, ie. less than 2 years on type).

Yes, no one will care when you leave, but I will equally not be mawkish when I go. I had a great time but in the past 2 years things have definately got worse. Also, the T&C changes of late means that for me, the deal is off.

LJ

[Willard Whyte]

There are many hands being withdrawn from a very small bucket.

There will hardly be enough water to put out a match, let alone a proper fire.

[Anonystude]

I think it's telling that there are apparently studes in training who survived the recent 'night of the long knives' but are looking to VW for the airlines.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

WW,

Apologies for the baldrick bluntness but that is a load of old tosh :=

[xenolith]

WW

Absolutly right mate!

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

By the sounds of it, it's the service that is having the lucky escape.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

There are a number of folk still inside ROS that are planning on leaving as soon as their time is up. Still enjoy the flying (what little there is) but its the little hoops you have to jump through like secondary duties, endless check rides and having another evening/weekend stolen from you at 1630 cos there is an important engineering ground run to do.
Death by a thousand cuts:ouch:

[Diablo Rouge]

Seldom:

You are most fortunate to have a pleasant view from the morale highground on which you persistantly advise is your standpoint. But one mans "tosh" is another mans "blinkers" and it is you that needs to open your eyes and see what debris resides on the squadrons from which you came. It is not a pretty sight, and whilst you hold no kudos with "experience", the fact is that a lack of it contributed significantly to the problems the Puma fleet had/maybe even have.

There is a Manning crisis unfolding from under your eyes. It is true that there are many simply happy to a job of any description, but it is equally true that the people we need most are choosing to exit stage right. I am sure the 'damage limitation' by Manning will be managed to make the reduction in overall numbers within target, and those that believe nobody cares are spot on.... to a point: The Command-chain and Manning may not care; but those left behind care, those who operate under rescourced and without the benefit of war-story knowledge handed down that will at some stage be reflected in Flight Safety stats.

As I said; the lofty perch on which you sit may be a good job, with good Execs/OC and admin support. I dont begrudge it, but you should value it, for it is becoming a rare comodity. ....and think before assuming that everybody else is also working for the few good eggs still around.

Try living in a 12`x 8` box room, 300 miles from home for a tour with sh**e food and too many knobbers in your decision making process and see how quickly you join the PVR club.

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

Awww Diablo Rouge, I didn't realise things had gotten so bad. Please give me your address and Mrs Yakovlev and I will send you a parcel...chin up lad.

[VinRouge]

Be interesting to see all those green eyed blunties over the boardroom table discussing the flying pay (specialist pay) review.

I very much doubt they will be going any further with specialist pay cuts, to do so would be absolute complete and utter suicide. How they are going to manage outflow rates of SO2/SO1 if they get lumped with a 4+ year blunty tour and end up getting paid not much more than a flying officer on middle rate.

There really are some dull tw@ts making decisions at the top arent there? :hmm:

[N_1]

An FRI at the end of the 5 years 'enhanced pension amortization period' for 'Professional Aviator' aircrew probably sounds sensible to PMA except when it is balanced against what PA Spine aircrew are actually doing... PVR’ing in large numbers.
Half of all those that I know that are PVR’ing (over a dozen so far) are PA Spine Aircrew; sticking it out till the 5 year enhanced pension point has not enough to balance the scales. Also a number of aircrew who were offered PA Spine last time are letting the offer period lapse and they all have made it into one of the 'UK Majors' hold-pools. What is PMA to do? They need to do something fast and substantial. The promise of a potential FRI in the future isn't going to cut it as the crews have all heard it before with the subsequent amounts promised being less, the limits of applicability being so narrow as to be miss the core audience, let alone it being deemed politically unacceptable in the current climate. The outcome in these cases is simple; the crews will vote with their feet.

[iRaven]

There really are some dull tw@ts making decisions at the top aren't there?

Yup, there certainly is... :sad:

[minigundiplomat]

LJ


some squadrons will end up with a dilution rate worse than that in the late 90s (about 65% diluted, ie. less than 2 years on type).




Good news for some of the SH Sqn's who have seen far worse rates of late.

[Lima Juliet]

MGD

Sadly, 65% will probably be "at best" with the other 35% doing all the crap - Auth, DOF/DAO, CR work up and QRA/National Standby. Also, the wise old "Sqn Uncle" will be a thing of the past with no-one there to tell the Boss/Flt Cdrs that they may have got it wrong...:(

Still, on the bright side, I've known a few "Sqn Aunties" in my time! :ok:

LJ

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Seldom:

You are most fortunate to have a pleasant view from the morale highground on which you persistantly advise is your standpoint. But one mans "tosh" is another mans "blinkers" and it is you that needs to open your eyes and see what debris resides on the squadrons from which you came. It is not a pretty sight, and whilst you hold no kudos with "experience", the fact is that a lack of it contributed significantly to the problems the Puma fleet had/maybe even have.

Lack of experience or lack of supervision? I think back to my time on the Puma and the Bittburg 7 and Poland 5 are shining examples of how the youth of today will always seek to push the boundaries.


There is a Manning crisis unfolding from under your eyes. It is true that there are many simply happy to a job of any description, but it is equally true that the people we need most are choosing to exit stage right. I am sure the 'damage limitation' by Manning will be managed to make the reduction in overall numbers within target, and those that believe nobody cares are spot on.... to a point: The Command-chain and Manning may not care; but those left behind care, those who operate under rescourced and without the benefit of war-story knowledge handed down that will at some stage be reflected in Flight Safety stats.

The vast majority of the first and second tourists on the J have got more real time "war experience" than most of their command chain and without a doubt buckets loads more than their OCU counterparts. Not sure how that stacks up in the rotary world but in my time I seem to recall Shawbury ad it's fair share of Shropshire Permanent Staff.


As I said; the lofty perch on which you sit may be a good job, with good Execs/OC and admin support. I dont begrudge it, but you should value it, for it is becoming a rare comodity. ....and think before assuming that everybody else is also working for the few good eggs still around.

I never said good, I said capable and in my 37 years I have seen some outstanding folk leave the service but each and every time someone stepped in a carried the baton.


Try living in a 12`x 8` box room, 300 miles from home for a tour with sh**e food and too many knobbers in your decision making process and see how quickly you join the PVR club.

When I first came to the Herc there is no doubt the culture between SH and fixed wing was poles apart but now dry your girlie eyes princess as things are different. Everything you describe is as standard to the Herc fleet as it is to you :ok:

[xenolith]

Grow up pal, just because you are Fat, Dumb and Happy it doesn't mean that everyone is.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Xeno,

They do say that once you have to resort to insult generally the argument is lost however there is some merit in what accuse me of.

Fat, yes I do admit to being a bit overweight.

Dumb, some would argue that is a pre requisite for my trade.

Happy, Without a doubt as I only have 1 more year to go.

What you forgot to add though was realist.

What 37 years of service so far have taught me is that no matter how good you are, no matter how well respected you are, no matter how important your role is the day you leave the military the military machine simply continues to function without ever missing a heartbeat.

I have seen some fantastic people depart early and on time and not once, as in not once did I ever see things grind to a halt because of their passing.

I am not saying you are but if you are one of those precious folk out there who believe that if you PVR the whole pack of cards will come tumbling down then off you go and complete the seven click JPA function :ok:

Just remember on your last day, left or right, no one gives a **** :ok:

[davejb]

I think the point is that whilst the RAF has always been able to continue working while individuals leave, anything approaching a 'mass exodus' of experienced folk over a short period of time is unlikely to be handled as well - it's one thing for incredibly experienced person A to leave, and very experienced person B slides seemlessly into place, and to have persons A through M leaving and extremely inexperienced person N suddenly finding he's a flight commander.

The question is whether the RAF can continue to function IF the PVRs and redundancies etc combine to remove a large part of the corporate experience, and it's foolish to assume that this would be handled as easily for a large group as for the odd individual.

By the way, I think 'dry your girly eyes princess' rather undermines your moral high ground wrt

They do say that once you have to resort to insult generally the argument is lost however

Will the RAF continue when the PVRs go in? Yes. Will the PVRs affect things like operational effectiveness, flight safety and so forth.? You can't answer that, but personally I think it's likely.
Dave

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Dave,

I am sure I am about to be corrected but I for one have never seen a mass exodus, I have witnessed a whole cu nimb of hot air being spouted about it but never yet seen the "**** it, all out brothers" apocalypse being prophesied in here.

I take on board your other point but I thought my use of the smilie made it banter as opposed to down right rude, but that is purely a perception thing :ok:

[humpndump]

Is the PVR notice still 6 months for rotary crewmen? I'm aware the goal posts moved for pilots but haven't seen anything about crewmen.

hnd :sad:

[Two's in]

What 37 years of service so far have taught me is that no matter how good you are, no matter how well respected you are, no matter how important your role is the day you leave the military the military machine simply continues to function without ever missing a heartbeat.


That SFFP, is a statement of pure, undeniable, fact. It's like taking your hand out of a bucket of water, possibly a few small ripples initially, and then it's like it was never there.

[Diablo Rouge]

It's like taking your hand out of a bucket of water, possibly a few small ripples initially, and then it's like it was never there.

....unless the bucket was full. As the water that went overboard as the hand was immersed is not replaceable. Well not the same quality of water as new stuff from the training pipeline does not count.

I would love to see the stats if Rotary pilots and WSOp appear in the Sept redundancy wish list. But even with the loss of Merlin I doubt there is room for manouvre within the Manning fiqures of these guys.

[snagged1]

I think the bottom line is very much when you get pissed off with life in the military, get out and get on with a new life outside.

For some that will come at the end of 38 years (or however long it is you can stay in before getting booted out!), for others it will be after 8,10,12/16 etc. To each their own - no one is right, no one is wrong - when your time is up, go.

Will the RAF keep functioning - Yes.
Will hard learnt experience be lost - Yes
Is it sad and pitiful to see the military slashed and cut - Yes
Is Life short and you should do what makes you happy - Yes

Just my 2 cents!
To those still in/staying in - big respect guys/girls and keep safe.:)

[xenolith]

As I recall the term Fat Dumb and Happy has been used across the services and across time to describe someone who is very content with their lot.

I am disapointed that you, of all posters on this forum, should be so precious in light of your penchant for using phrases like now dry your girlie eyes princess .

Like I said, grow up pal!

[Really annoyed]

no matter how good you are, no matter how well respected you are, no matter how important your role is the day you leave the military the military machine simply continues to function without ever missing a heartbeat.

Very true. Lets imagine pprune is the military. Some good guys and some complete throbbers, hey MG........ Anyway, when you leave pprune, Seldom, next year like you said you would after you leave, what will happen? Nothing. No ripples, nothing. PPrune will just carry on waffling on about Nimrod and Harriers and only those scared to leave the comfort zone that prune gives them will be left. Can you see the analogy here?

[Willard Whyte]

How many qualified pilots in the RAF?

What proportion are PVRing?

If the proportion is too large there will be too few for the required tasking, and not enough OCU places, let alone instructors, to get trainees up to speed.

Still, there are enough ostriches, both here and in command, to ignore the problem until it's too late.

[Airborne Aircrew]

and not enough OCU places, let alone instructors, to get trainees up to speed.


No problem at all... The Saudis can train ours. After all, we've been training them for decades so we'll not miss a beat... :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

As I recall the term has been used across the services and across time to describe someone who is very content with their lot.


What was that saying about assumption........

I'm not and have not been for a good few years now for reasons that don't need airing here so not quite sure what your point is? Based at Lye with all that is currently going on there then what on earth is there to be F,D and H about?

But here's the rub, because i am grown up I know that despite being a biggish cog in my trade wheel it matters not a single jot if I leave now or next year as a day later nothing will have changed and someone else be coping comfortably doing what I had previously been tasked with :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

But here's the rub, because i am grown up I know that despite being a biggish cog in my trade wheel it matters not a single jot if I leave now or next year as a day later nothing will have changed and someone else be coping comfortably doing what I had previously been tasked with

I think what people are trying to say is that if the service "ruptures" in terms of PVR's then that "someone else" you refer to will be doing your job with a fraction of the knowledge and experience which has it's own consequences.

[Widger]

We have entered the final phase now, where cuts are so bad, rather than inter-service fighting, we now have the single service trades themselves ripping into each other.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

AA,

I get it, I really do, it's just I don't buy into the rupture thing. I have heard more "**** it I'm off" talk over the years to realise it's almost always hot air and most of those who say it simply "talk a good PVR :ok:

[MG]

Lets imagine pprune is the military. Some good guys and some complete throbbers, hey MG......... What have I done now?!:{

[High_Expect]

I don't think that was aimed at you MG... Just some lazy abbreviation.

[xenolith]

so not quite sure what your point is?

The point is, you can dish it out but you can't take it:=

[3 bladed beast]

Whilst we are all seeing the PVRs, a lot of discontent and people 'talking' about PVR'ing my main other worry is the attitude of the guys coming through the system.

One of the effects of the redundancies of the 180 out of the training system is that a lot of the guys left have seen there isn't any loyalty and are just numbers. What I have seen of new guys coming through, is that they realise that it could happen again in the future and aren't willing to give it their all, like 'RISE' and other bull**** publications suggest they should.

Whilst us 'older' guys might put up with it for a couple of years to get pensions or plan an exit due to family reasons, the newer guys are willing to leave quicker.

This might be subjective, however, I feel this is backed up by the amount of Co-pilots doing their ATPLs.

Anyway, looking forward to the Manning briefs coming up this week!!:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

The point is, you can dish it out but you can't take it:=

Ah, right, I guess I did miss that bit :p:p:p

[Jabba_TG12]

"Try living in a 12`x 8` box room, 300 miles from home for a tour with sh**e food and too many knobbers in your decision making process and see how quickly you join the PVR club."


For 8 years of my career, I lived in a room half that size, for 7 of those years 500 miles away from home, definately with sh*te food for virtually my whole career, with a management chain stuffed to the gills with complete throbbers (less than a dozen exceptions in total) and it still took me 16 years to upgrade my PVR Club membership to "Full". :}

Guess we all have different "F**k it" thresholds :E

[BEagle]

Jabba_TG12, you're beginning to sound a bit like one of 't Four Yorkshiremen:

-eDaSvRO9xA

[Jabba_TG12]

Sorry Beags, couldnt resist it ;)

Despite all those things, I'd still not swap those 16 years for anything else and have not a single regret about joining when I did or leaving when I did.

Snagged sums it up perfectly for me to be honest; its all relative and we're all different. You know in yourself when its time to really move on and turn the letting-off-steam-PVR into a real one.

The difference being this time though (IMHO, natch) is that there is less and less to stay in for, compared to the days of old. Thats where I do have quite a lot of sympathy for those who'se careers find themselves either in freefall or dead mans shoes, particularly if its all they've ever known since leaving our wonderful education system (insert tongue in cheek smiley here)... The diminishing returns point was a fairly easy one for me to spot; I cant help but get the feeling that for those serving at the moment that its something that is constantly hovering in front of their faces like an annoying insect.

Sad state of affairs. :suspect:

[Ranger5]

Despite losing 170+ studes from the pipeline, there are still astronomical holds facing those that remain. Age vs promotion is severely limiting promotion and career prospects, even once we retire (lack of flying hours). Being part of the cadre of graduates who have had a longer than expected journey through flying training thus far, and still years away from completion, means I for one will be pushing 30 before I hit the front line... (if ever). I know of people who will be 32 when they get to front line and they joined at 21 straight from university...

4 years of "flying" training, and still 3 to go... crazy.

So I hear you all saying about first tourists being enthusiastic, young, boozey and keen - people whos careers are looked after, have rose tinted vision and no commitments - therefore unlikely to PVR... I throw back to you a generation of first tourists who are in their early 30's

This wont work. (And I will say I told you so, come the day)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Ranger,

No offence intended or sought but the very fact that you and many others like you are still around hoping to make it to the frontline suggests that it probably will work and "the day" you suggest is highly unlikely to come.

Just my humble thoughts :ok:

[1.3VStall]

R5.

As a KOS, who left the RAF 15-ish years ago after 27+ years service, I struggle to comprehend how it now, apparently, takes 7-8 years to get someone through the training machine to becoming "Op" on a squadron. Why? Where are the hold ups?

[Airborne Aircrew]

Why? Where are the hold ups?

The chimpanzees are de-evolving?

[Uncle Ginsters]

Come on folks,

The idea of hitting 30 before the front line is hardly new; in the late 90's we had a whole cadre of guys farmed out to holding jobs or to complete university Masters' Degrees that went through exactly that. Sadly, it seems that how the cycle runs.

I'm not saying it's right, but it's definitely not unprecedented...and it wasn't all that bad then...they just made do!

Are we just becoming enveloped in a world of ever-increasing negativity? I guess only time will truly tell.

[Diablo Rouge]

Inefficient methods of working, resulting in disenchantment, demoralisation, demotivation, disaffection, and alienation. Dysfunctional and inefficient organisations. Staff turnover and sickness absence are high whilst productivity and profitability are low. Prosperity is illusory and such organisations are a bad long term investment.


I can see this quotation prevelent in my Sqn and Stn. Yet the source of these words is from an article on Bullying! Perhaps being delivered without malice, but this forum in particular would suggest that it is the entire military being 'bullied' by Government.

NB The words are preceded by "The purpose of a bully is to hide inadequacy".

[3 bladed beast]

1.3Vs.....

3 years ago, the powers that be, decided to increase the number of courses going through EFT and then added extra students to those courses as well. Instead of the 6-8 students on a course, we were working with 16 at a time.

The question was asked 'where exactly are we pushing all these guys to'? Given that the VC-10 was on its way out, along with the tristar, Awacs, cuts to Eurofighter and various helicopter Sqns ( this was before the recent reviews!!)

There simply aren't enough front line slots to send them to. The VC10 and TriStar OCUs are shut, along with the Herc K. The Herc J is full up for many months, the C-17 is the same and I presume other fleets are similar....

Its been a classic case of Tap on, force people through and sit back and watch them hold!!!

Of course, I might be wrong with my cynical views.....:ok:

[Ranger5]

3BB

Absolutely correct. The holds between types through all three streams at all stages is averaging over a year also. With some over 2 years.

There are currently enough students to fill all rotary OCU slots for the next 3 and a half years, on hold between the squirrel and the griffin... I know the figures, oh what fun my holding job is...

Crazy.

R5

[cazatou]

"Those whom the Gods wish to destroy - they first make mad."

[Exascot]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32684975/Euripides.jpg

Was he a mate of yours cazatou? Or was this you in a previous life? Doesn't look anything like you :p

Leave our Greek Playwrights alone :)

[cazatou]

Exascot

You haven't seen me for some 20 + years -I have grown far more distinguished!!

(3 more days and I become an OAP).

[Exascot]

Probably nearer 30 actually K, so that must be it.

I do not like to post here how long it took me from commissioning to becoming operational and how many hours I had when I left after 16 years. I really feel for you guys tied up in the so called 'system'. :mad:

[Dr Schlong]

So...any gems from the meeting with Manning at Brize today?

[ALM In Waiting]

I did wonder why the sqn was so empty today...

[VinRouge]

The plan is.......













There is no plan.

[Ken Scott]

There is no plan.

No, there is a plan.......they're going to stop pilots who want to leave from leaving while they have too many pilots for the number of aircraft in the RAF so they're all going to be in ground tours or going to Canada.....or something.

It also had something to do with needing lots of pilots in a few years for the A400 & Voyager, whilst all the Navigators (who aren't PVRing enough) will do all the Staff jobs.

I think that about sums up 3 1/2 hours of briefings.

[Hueymeister]

So what happened - there must be more to it than that. Just another pointless PMA briefing? Briefing us that they were briefing us on the latest briefing from the Centre of Briefing Excellence?

Granted, I wouldn't want their job right now; a cross between Russian Roulette and juggling with live RPG warheads. Fun!

[BEagle]

Interesting comment in Thursday's Comet made in 1966 and included on the Royal Air Force In The 1960s 4-disc DVD set recently released:
Transport Command is big. Really big - with more aircraft than BOAC and BEA put together!

Another quote from a chap who joined at 23 and was flying 2 years later, in response to the interviewer's question about his age:

"The average age on 208 Sqn, our Hunter squadron over there is a bit lower. Most of them joined at 17 and were flying them at 19"

Whereas today it's "Join up, get screwed about for 10 years and you might eventually end up on helicopters".

:\

[Ranger5]

BEagle, that brought a chuckle to my fellow holding chum here.

To quote him: "At what point in time did the best job in the world, become so dog****?"

He may have a point.

R5

[brakedwell]

I feel for the trainee pilots of today. The lack of continuity and boring holding jobs must be very frustrating, made worse by the threat of further redundancies. Our course was very pi**ed off when the Vampire FB5's and 9's were grounded three months before we were due to pass out in June 1957. (Most were bent beyond limits, probably as a result of service in Korea). This put us back 2 months which extended our flying training from 18 to 20 months. Just long enough for Mr Duncan Sandys to axe my Hunter course and divert a very frustrated potential fighter pilot to Transport Command! :sad::sad::sad:

[BEagle]

Ranger5, the 1957 Sandys savagery was long before even my time, but the effects of Wislon and Healeys' 'East of Suez' bolleaux were being felt when I was going through training - Mason's 1974 Defence Review accelerated the decline. From then on it was cut after cut after cut, although at one stage we actually had 3 TWUs at Brawdy, Chivenor and Lossiemouth churning out fast jet pilots.

Then we had Nott's nonsense in 1981 and 'Options for change' in 1990 - note that both of these were followed by wholly unexpected conflicts! The lessons weren't learned though, as we then had the complete bolleaux of the 1994 'Front Line First' garbage, furthering the decline. At the same time we had Bliar's underfunded 'I'm having a war, come as you are and please bring a bottle' war-ettes in Bosnia and Kosovo - then SDR in 1998 and the RAF's downward spiral increased yet further, but with a whole bunch of chiselling yes-men doing nothing to stop it. Coupled with ever increasing levels of niff-naff and trivia. My personal Minimum Abandonment Height was reached in 2002 and I pulled the B&Y without a moment's hesitation after 35 years.

Since then the overstretch, underfunding and mismanagement has become even worse. Even at the entry level, UASs have been utterly emasculated, EFT on rented plastic pigs and a few hours on rented King Airs means that TriStar co-pilots don't even have enough PIC time after a whole tour to qualify for a simple civil CPL.

Heaven knows how any recruiting officer can look a bright young hopeful in the face without feeling any guilt - for just what is there to attract anyone these days?

When I joined, the manned strength of the RAF was 120337, with a further 83555 reservists. Since then, in the UK alone I've seen Abingdon, Acklington, Andover, Aston Down, Ballykelly, Bassingbourn, Bentwaters, Bicester, Biggin Hill, Binbrook, Bovingdon, Brawdy, Chivenor, Church Fenton, Coltishall, Cranwell North, Driffield, Elvington, Finningley, Fulbeck, Gaydon, Gravely, Greenham Common, Hamble, Honington, Hullavington, Kemble, Kinloss, Leconfield, Leuchars, Lindholme, Little Rissington, Lyneham, Machrihanish, Manby, Newton, North Luffenham, North Weald, Oakington, Ouston, Pershore, Scampton, Spitalgate, St Davids, St Mawgan, Stradishall, Strubby, Swinderby, Syerston, Tangmere, Ternhill, Thorney Island, Waterbeach, Wattisham, Watton, West Malling, West Raynham and White Waltham all close to military flying. Recruiting glossies in the late 1960s showed young Fg Offs barely out of their teens flying Lightnings in Tengah and Transport Command spanning the globe with a vast fleet of aircraft.

Watch this movie and you'll get some taste of why I, for one, wanted to join as soon as I was old enough: LiveLeak.com - BAC Streaked Lightning.
"Want to fly a Lightning ?" - what would today's version be? "Want to waste the best 10 years of your life, then live in a tatty portakabin flying helicopters in some desert ****hole to fly very brave army guys to be shot at and blown up by medieval peasants?"

Anyway, good luck - you're going to need it!

[RAFEngO74to09]

To add to BEagle's list of bases no longer used by the RAF, let's not forget those in RAF Germany: Bruggen, Gutersloh, Laarbruch and Wildenrath.

[BEagle]

...and Gatow, Rheindahlen and Wegberg :E !

[High_Expect]

Forget the content for a minute, the recent brief I received from AMP's briefing team was one of the worst briefs I have EVER received! Read verbatim from a script designed to be read not spoken and with meaningless slides. It was an absolute disgrace and those involved and employed as a full time presentation team should be ashamed!

[cazatou]

We also had a Far East Air Force, Air Force Middle East and Near East Air Force - I drew the short straw and got the Middle East for my first Tour.

[nice castle]

"Want to waste the best 10 years of your life, then live in a tatty portakabin flying helicopters in some desert ****hole to fly very brave army guys to be shot at and blown up by medieval peasants?"

Having never done this, you have never tasted the intense professional reward and pride from carrying out such a role, so how dare you cast judgement like that.

Having done exactly that for 10 years, worked with some of the finest men (RAF and Army), and achieved the aim of bringing my men home in one piece, I can honestly say I wouldn't change a thing.

My old man was a truckie like yourself, so I will not denigrate your path in the way you have chosen mine, as I have some understanding of what your world is like.

What I would ask, with respect Beagle, is that you don't make comments on something you clearly know little about. It doesn't become you.

Thanks.:ok:

[chopabeefer]

What he said. The best and brightest of the talent joining the RAf are now routinely asking for Rotary as their first choice or role. Most demanding flying (by a mile), most operational flying, superb camraderie, and actually doing a job. Sorry Beags, but the future is Green, and has rotors. Plank-wings fly themselves, choppers need pilots.

[1.3VStall]

Ah BEags,

What memories that short film brought back. I remember watching it in the mid '60s with my Dad (ex WWII pilot), who was then an RAFVR(T) Air Cadet Sqn Cdr (I was a cadet) and an AEF pilot. In answer to the question "want to fly a Lightning?" every time he responded "yes please!". As you alluded, I know, in large part, those few minutes of celluloid determined that I would join the RAF.

However, like you, all I ever experienced was closures, cuts, down sizing, civilianisation, contractorisation etc, etc.

Best decision I ever made was to join and the second best decision was to leave. Looking at what is going on now this thread does not surprise me at all. Good luck to all who are still serving and to those that are about to leave I have never met any ex-RAF guy who has failed to make it on the outside. For some it simply takes longer than others.

[Really annoyed]

What I would ask, with respect Beagle, is that you don't make comments on something you clearly know little about. It doesn't become you.


Don't worry yourself nice castle. A palaeontologist recently stumbled upon the pprune military forum and was astonished to find that the dinosaurs haven't quite died off yet.

[Willard Whyte]

'bout time people realised not only that true doesn't have to be funny, but funny doesn't have to be true.

[BEagle]

I don't doubt the professionalism of the RW force at all - far from it. But Bliar's military adventurism in both GW2 and the north-west frontier has resulted in a sandaholic focus at the expense of far too many other areas of military flying - which is why you're there. There are now TriStar pilots who have only ever landed at 3 aerodromes in their whole tour - and who have never even flown one NAT track. The RAF has lost the MPA role, strategic bombing vanished years ago, as did strategic reconaissance - even training is being farmed out to contractors.

By definition, 'expeditionary' warfare is the direct result of failed government policy. The fact that the RAF then has to cope with the fall-out of such a policy is simply a legacy of the military 'can do' attitude.

When the UK has finally pulled out of the north-west frontier, the realisation that the whole RAF force structure is unbalanced will probably come as a shock. What will you do with all those Chinooks, for example, when there is no more north-west frontier operation to support? I suspect that there will be a lot of cuts to the RW world at that time.

The RAF will continue to attract some, but increasing competition from other areas of aviation will become a significant factor. Which 10 years of holding postings and being dicked around pre-OCU will hardly lessen.


(And less of the trucky, thank you very much - I only did a couple of years of that once the AAR role had become 'AT/AAR' :yuk: )

[Willard Whyte]

And then you go and spoil it all with a slur on truckies.

[Easy Street]

I have to agree with BEagle's sentiments regarding job satisfaction and think the criticism by nicecastle and chopabeefer misses his point. To take any satisfaction from the later years of TELIC, and anything on HERRICK, I contend that most choose to ignore the bigger picture and focus purely on their own (or their unit's own) contribution - and there is plenty of magnificent flying done by many who put themselves in harm's way day in, day out.

My own personal example would be the withdrawal of British troops from Basra Palace to the COB in 2007; at the time this was trailed as an 'important development in Basra's future' and a 'major strategic event', I worked very hard throughout it and my unit's part in its success was a source of much pride. Four years later we now know that it was actually a shabby deal, the aftermath of which did much damage to our reputation with both the Iraqis and the US. It takes time and detachment for such realisation to dawn and I think in a few years' time many of our brave, decorated RW pilots will wonder exactly why they and their passengers put themselves on the line in what (at the strategic level) has been nothing but a face-saving operation for the last 3 years. There are plenty of tactical victories to be proud of - but in the end, so what?

The unabated winning feeling "we kicked Saddam out of Kuwait" from 1991 hasn't really been repeated in any of the conflicts I've experienced since, which says a lot about our poor strategic direction (whether based on poor politics or poor military advice, the end result is the same). For a few weeks this spring the Libya operation provided a welcome positive buzz around the place - I reckon this will start to die off fairly soon unless some definitive direction emerges. We'll see!

[Siggie]

Easy Street :D

[juliet]

Personally I loved the years I spent as a trucky. Awesome flying, crap conditions, awesome flying, amazing people to work with, and awesome flying!

I never understand why some always choose to talk down about certain roles within the military. I never wanted to fly helis or jets but I always saw the many positives in their roles, and would have been very happy to have flown in those roles.

Lighten up Beagle.

[2Planks]

Beagle, as you mentioned Wegburg, I was reminded of Ely, Nocton Hall and Wroughton as happy hunting grounds though I was never sure who was the hunter and who was the hunted :mad:

[dalek]

Beagle,
Same vintage as you.
Add Sharjah, Bahrain, Masirah, Gan, Luqa, Seletar?, Tengah,Changi, Decci, and a few other places.
You can go to MPA now though.

[BEagle]

Easy Street, I'm glad that at least one person understands!

I joined with the idea of completing a full career, so good were the opportunities back then. But those who wrote comment such as:
I've been in for 5 years, 4 of those front line multi. I would leave tomorrow if I thought that I would be allowed to. As it stands I've another 2 1/2 years to do to fullfil my return of service. I am undervalued, taken advantage of and not respected. Why would I stay?
clearly thought otherwise. And it was a mere 6 years ago when you posted that, eh juliet? Things seem to have worsened considerably since then - hardly a matter over which one would 'lighten up'.

[juliet]

Beagle, I was commenting on your propensity to slag off trucky types. And I stand by my comments of 6 years ago, but that doesnt mean that I didn't have a hell of a lot of fun amidst all the crap!

[brakedwell]

Beagle, as you mentioned Wegburg, I was reminded of Ely, Nocton Hall and Wroughton as happy hunting grounds though I was never sure who was the hunter and who was the hunted

Wroughton was tame compared with the soirees in the nurses' home at the Princess Margaret Hospital Swindon.:E

[Wander00]

Obviously never been to a party at Lousy Maggie's -Princess Louise Margaret's Military Hospital at Aldeshot - I was there the night the guys returned from Rhodesia after running the Reception centres when the terrorists came out of the bush. These guys, all 2nd Lts as I recall, reckoned they were lucky to have come back - hell of a party!

[Lima Juliet]

I expect the next set of PVRs to start soon as those holding out for Tranche 3 redundancy on AFPS75 will be now dissappointed - 9 months severence pay going down to 3 months...:eek:

Still, at least they reversed the leave policy today so that you can now carry over 15 days a year - as we always used to.

I can honestly say that I have never known such a crock of cr@p as I have in the past year. When I PVRd recently, you get the chance to give 4 reasons why you have on JPA; pay and allowances, terms of service and lack of stability were in my top three.

I fear I will be just ahead of a very big bow-wave...:sad:

LJ

[RumPunch]

Leon you reckon we will have a Tranche 3 ? With the amount of PVRs flying about at the moment surely they are going to reduce the numbers required by that time. I expect many to bang in the PVRs come Sept 1st when those that dont get redundency as expected will just leave anyway.

God knows whats going to happen, it changes everyday

[Corporal Clott]

I've just noticed that the Commutation advice booklet MMP/107 has been removed from the MoD website (under pensions).

I smell something fishy going on...:*

CPL Clott

[2Planks]

LJ - The drop to three months redundancy has been delayed to 2015 - can't find the reference but is was a Statutory thingumygig IIRC

[Climebear]

The 31 March 2013 date (after which AFRS10 compensation payments were reduced from a max of 9 months pay to a max of 3 months pay) was changed to 31 December 2015 by Statutory Instrument 2011 No.208 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/208/pdfs/uksi_20110208_en.pdf),

Details are in 2011DIN01-056.




Sorry Biggus

[Biggus]

A couple of points:

LJ

The implementation of the change in "severence pay" from 9 to 3 months you refer to has been delayed until 2015. Post 26 of this thread

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/459480-redundancy-tranche-2-delayed-2.html

gives details.

RumPunch

I have heard from several sources that the redundancy offer has not been oversubscribed, indeed only about 50% of those leaving in tranche 1 will have volunteered. Therefore I doubt that there will be a large number of PVRs going in on Sept 1, as most people who have applied for redundancy should get it...... Pilots being the one possible exception, there being no pilot slots offered for redundancy.




RATS - just pipped to the post by Climebear!!!

[Ivan Rogov]

Biggus, there are some people not in tranche 1 hoping to be in tranche 2, if they are not they may well jump. By delaying tranche 2 I would guess that the PVR rush in September will not happen, instead it will spread out as some will have had enough now but others still have to prepare their escape plans.

[The Nip]

The 50% figure is fairly accurate. The one surprising figure is that about 150 volunteers have been turned down.
Information about those individuals selected is being sent to CO's soon for time to see how it effects units etc before individuals are informed.
I think it has been stated before but these peopel cannot be 'replaced' as such:confused:

[The B Word]

I've been trying to PVR for a few days now and my line manager doesn't have the required priveledges to accept it :ugh:

Crock of sh!te...

[StopStart]

I wouldn't worry about it, probably make no difference if he did have. I PVR'd nearly 7 weeks ago and still don't have an exit date....

That said, I also PVR'd when it was 6 month exit time but am, it would seem, being held to 12 months.

http://gfxlovers.com/smilies/imgs/aloof-and-bored/aloof-and-bored001.gif

[Sideshow Bob]

I've been trying to PVR for a few days now and my line manager doesn't have the required priveledges to accept it

New rules; only CAS can now accept PVRs.

There's a 12 month waiting list for PVR acceptance on 75% flying pay followed by a 12 month wait for issue of an exit date on 50% flying pay. The exit date will be 12 months from date of issue, this time will be spent on zero flying pay. That should save some money :ok:

(might put that in as a GEMS tomorrow)

[Willard Whyte]

It'd be easier quicker, and probably more enjoyable, to start smoking grass.

[Runaway Gun]

Is the man-love thing still an option? At least that'd bring someone some joy, and not harm your potential airline career.

[brakedwell]

Is the man-love thing still an option? At least that'd bring someone some joy, and not harm your potential airline career.

I would have propositioned the CO's wife/mistress/girlfriend first :E

[Grabbers]

You could always go on the lash in Gioia. :)

[Exascot]

Wife swap:cool:

[Willard Whyte]

Are Stn Commanders still supplied with teenage daughters?..

Edit: That really doesn't scan well on second reading.

[Runaway Gun]

Only if they don't get their first choice of PA.

[Could be the last?]

Can someone clarify the criteria for PA, or which doc it is laid down in?

TVM

[Willard Whyte]

36-24-36

Usually female.

Document? Any from the 'top shelf'.

[brakedwell]

Are Stn Commanders still supplied with teenage daughters?..

The ones I knew will be in care homes now :}

[MrFlibble]

If you're on AFRS06, how quick does the lump sum payment on exit usually come through? I know they have a maximum of 3 months to pay out, but are they usually pretty quick or not with these things?

[Wander00]

Hang on, Mr F, that's dangerously like getting back to the topic!

[Hueymeister]

If one PVR'd just after one's 42nd birthday and waited the 12 months and left after their 43rd thereby completing the full 5 yrs PA ROS would that see one leaving with the PA pension or would one have to wait to PVR until after one's completed the full 5 yrs ROS to PVR?

[Wyler]

Just spent a few days visiting 4 friends in the South East. All ex Mil and most left on PVR. Their take on this topic is that if you are 42 or older and looking to jump ship without a cast iron job offer, forget it. The market is saturated with very clever 30 somethings looking to get hired.
One mate who left at his 38 point and has clawed his way to a 6 figure salary over 10 years has diluted his Mil experience to 3 lines on his CV. Why? Because the majority of his employers were not really that interested.
Yes, there are jobs but you will still be at the back of a very long queue and age is critical in the private sector. To those aspiring Cathay Pacific Captains, one guy is ex Mil and a pilot. He earns 10 quid an hour teaching spotty youths to fly and picks up the odd job flying human organs around the UK. The other two are earning less than they were in the Mil and without the fringe benefits of subsidised housing and free dental etc. One bitterly regrets leaving.
If you are going to go, get out while you are young and with as many industry friendly quals as possible. Failing that, grit your teeth as something is better than nothing.

[StopStart]

Hueymeister

I had exactly the same query and indeed delayed PVRing until I had it in writing. The SPVA said:

"I can confirm that all Service Personnel's pensionable benefits are calculated by taking the reckonable service from enlistment date to the date of discharge. Therefore your pensiable benefits would be calculated on the basis of your provisional discharge date mentioned in your letter of XX XXX XX which does fall after your 5 year PAS point"

As long as your exit date falls after your 5 year PAS point then you will receive the full PAS pension.


Wyler - I've had quite a few mates aged 40+ PVR over the last 5 of so years and I can count on the fingers of one foot those who have not managed to secure decent employment in the sector of their choosing. Not being blindly optimistic just calling it as I see it. Plenty of people change jobs in their forties.

[Lima Juliet]

Stoppers

I agree, leaving at forty-something and I have got a job that pays the same when added to my immediate pension - but I also have mahoosive lump sum in the bank as well :ok:

I also earn another pension that when combined with my AFPS75 pension will be the equivalent of a Gp Capt by retirement at 60+. Now if I stayed in I was never going to get anywhere near that.

Wyler

What your mates have to be is flexible; it can't be location if they live in the South East. A big mistake some make is location - no good sitting in the wilds of the highlands, the back waters of Lincolnshire's fens, deepest darkest Wiltshire or Norfolk waiting for a £50-100k job to come along. A lot of servicemen expect a job within 30mins commute - most private sector workers commute 30-60mins, some of my civvy mates commute 2hrs to get to work :eek:. There are jobs out there if you can be flexible and live near where they need you or are prepared to commute.

I agree about the CV and it is all important to even get to interview - what a lot servicemen fail to grasp is that you have to tailor the CV to every application and show relevance of your experience to that job.

LJ

[Climebear]

Daily Telegraph: British Airways to recruit 800 pilots (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8693999/British-Airways-to-recruit-800-pilots.html)

The latter group [Armed Forces] will get a training programme tailored to enable pilots to embark on a career in commercial aviation.

[CrabInCab]

Oh to be a fly on the wall at Manning now!

:E

[2Planks]

We need a smilie dressed in a kilt to go with "We're doomed Capt Manwaring"

[StopStart]

Manning are well aware of this and to be honest this isn't new "news". BA opened general DE non TR pilot recruiting last month.

I think all those that are going to go have gone or are in the process of going. I'd be surprised if an article in the DT based on 2 month old news is going to have any additional impact on pilot manning in the RAF.

[Chris Griffin]

Manning were certainly aware of the BA recruitment campaign prior to its general release due to an apparent reneging on a "deal" wrt managed path. The numbers required from both managed path and DEP have been kept somewhat quiet by BA due to the fact the business plan needed ratification.

Whilst I agree that, in the short term, those who are eligible to go are in the process of doing so, the unknown quantity will be how many will be tempted by the numbers required vs staying in for an uncertain future. The boom / bust phenomenon continues and most people are acutely aware that its better to make the jump on the upward turn as opposed to just before the bust.

Not sure this will influence the majority but it will influence some to leave and those figures have not been accounted for by manning.

Interesting times.

[sidewayspeak]

Airlines recruiting sure isn't going to help manning's job.

Nor is the short-sighted decision to axe 170 student pilots and close recruiting pilot for 12 months. Holding JO pilots to 12-months on PVR is clutching at straws. We are set for some interesting times. :sad:

[VinRouge]

Manning want to be concerned with all the other airlines recruiting at the moment too, not least those in the middle and far east. Emirates alone have 90 A380 on order and other airlines are actively seeking experience. If you are willing to move abroad then there is plenty to do out there...

[High_Expect]

Who isn't contemplating moving abroad?.... This country has gone to rat s***.

[Siggie]

I'm not contemplating moving abroad, I'm quite happy in the RAAF. :}

[back end o' the bus]

The RAAF definately isn't the RAF...far from it....but the pay, allowances and distance from the beach can't be beaten!!!!!!!!! and the locals are friendly plus numerous blue sky days, its a "no brainer!"...oh and the wine and petrol are cheap as chips!!!:D

[rathebelucky]

Siggie, Back end o the bus

Didn't your parents teach you that it not nice to mock the afflicted?
Now play nicely and don't tease.
any gen as to whether the RAAF are opening up the numbers/options for parallel recruiting?

[back end o' the bus]

Well with the addition of a 5th C-17 and maybe a 6th....more A300's, more Wedgetails, C-27 Spartans......??? They should open recruiting...but then that would be common dog!!!:ugh:

[Siggie]

BeLucky,

suitably chastened :\.

I understand that lateral recruitment is at a standstill at the moment, certainly in the 'Maritime trades'. That is not to say that this will not change in the future.

[hudjunkie]

I put this on the thread re BA recruitment, but it belongs here as well.

This BA recruitment phase will, I think, be a double Whammy for the MOD. Not only will front-line operators, who have a significant amount of experience, be leaving to join as part of the 400 First Officer slots. But we also have a number of students in the training pipeline who have seen a recent cull amongst their colleagues, and are hearing rumours of what the next phase will entail. They have seen a significant number of those who were cut, being offered Cadetships with Cathay. So with the BA recruitment push with 400 Cadetships on offer, you can't blame the guys for considering their options, and if I was 22 again and part way through an ever restricting training pipeline I know which option I would be taking....!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif

I spoke a week or two ago with an AMP briefing team member who told me that the increase in PVRs was only a PPRUNE rumour, I was able to quote him the names of 7 colleagues who had PVRd in the past 10 days. However he was having none of it, and this was before the BA announcement. You just couldn't make it up.....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

[BEagle]

Perhaps the ex-Iraqi Information Minister Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf (better known as 'Comical Ali') has been hired as a consultant to the AMP Briefing Team?

[Just This Once...]

The last PVR list (July) I saw had a mixed bag of names and roles. Something like 4 from the instructor world, 3 from Harrier, 3 from C17, 2 from C130, 1 Shadow, 2 GR4, 1 Red Arrow, 3 Tristar, 2 CH47 etc etc. Not the exact numbers I grant you but it was a fair spread of exits rather than an exodus from a particular fleet. Quite different from what you would garner from this forum.

That said when pilots vote with their feet it tends to be at option points and I do wonder how many are leaving by this route that we would normally expect to retain.

[Uncle Ginsters]

Where is this PVR list?

[Biggus]

hudjunkie,

Perhaps you should have asked the AMP briefing team member why, if there had been no noticeable increase in PVRs, they had increased the pilot PVR waiting time from 6 to 12 months recently?

[hudjunkie]

Biggus,

I did exactly that, the reply was the increase to 12 months was simply one of the various "levers" available to control outflow and experience levels. I was very careful to not shoot the messenger, i.e its not the fault of AMP briefing Team if they arent fully informed, but I did point out that it is crucial that AMP have an accurate picture if he is to be running our Manning picture and not just reacting to it...:sad:

JTO, the 7 I mention are from one fleet, 1 Sqn Ldr pre 38, 2 PA Flt Lts, 4 Flt Lts pre 38. Not sure if the Stats you have seen are the same ones that the AMP guys work from, but these are 7 people I know. Not sure what else I can say on that matter...:confused:

[fergineer]

Good luck to all that are leaving..... The offer from BA should be too much for the fence sitters and I would expect many more to leave with offers like these. Alas the Airforce will lose some very experienced folk and it will be nothing like the Airfoce I joined or even the one that I left after 26 years in 96.

[Just This Once...]

...the 7 I mention are from one fleet, 1 Sqn Ldr pre 38, 2 PA Flt Lts, 4 Flt Lts pre 38. Not sure if the Stats you have seen are the same ones that the AMP guys work from, but these are 7 people I know

Eeek, now that is an exodus.

[JliderPilot]

Sounds like the C130 fleet to me (spoken as a current J guy with who I know is going), any numbers on the Tri* and C-17? I know that a few are leaving those fleets maybe some on an exit date though.

[Pelikanpete]

This will no doubt fall on deaf ears or annoy those who don't like hearing it. Check carefully that the grass is actually really greener on the other side. The private sector is in as much pain as the public sector.

The very experienced amongst you with tens of thousands of hours (especially as Captains) on heavy transports types will probably be fine but the rest maybe in for a nasty shock. The whole industry is in a real mess and the newer contracts don't pay anywhere near what the old ones did (BA, Cathay, Quantas etc. have all really changed). Jobs are very thin on the ground and many pilots with many thousands of hours experience are out of work.

If you think receiving special treatment for being ex-mil will be the industry norm, think again. Most airline HR departments know nothing about your achievements and will only be interested in whether you have a current type rated ATPL with enough hours on type.

Also BA's HR department apply little logic in their selection process and think 18 year old cadets make great airline pilots. Of the 800 they plan to take between now and 2016 only about 400 will actually be experienced pilots (ie. less than 100 a year) and there is extremely strong competition from large numbers of civi pilots, from other airlines and with plenty of hours on type for those jobs. Also, BA's seniority based promotion means that you could wait 15 or more years before getting into the left seat of an A320.

Worst case scenario for those without the right experience, you could find yourself spending a large chunk of cash getting the civi-licences only to find that you need to pay an eye-watering amount more for a type rating and then have to accept a pay cut for a contract outside of Europe (and maybe somewhere Third World). Worse after all that you may not even get a flying job - there really are guys out there with type ratings and 3-5000 hours but out of work for over a year or two.

I'm not mil aircrew myself (although I am ex-Army). For me, with my hours and experience (just a Frozen ATPL) there is virtually no chance at all. You guys maybe be able to make it but don't expect to earn more or have a smooth ride unless you have exactly the right quals/experience. Sorry to be gloomy but do be careful - I do regret leaving the Army.

[Exascot]

I'm not mil aircrew myself (although I am ex-Army). For me, with my hours and experience (just a Frozen ATPL) there is virtually no chance at all.

About the only bit of sense in this posting :ok:

Couldn't be bothered going through it in detail. :ugh:

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Summed that one up nicely; fixed wing experience with an ATPL then the future is looking very bright at the moment BUT if all you've got is a load of rotary hours then you may have well be working down Tescos.
Most airline HR departments know nothing about your achievements and will only be interested in whether you have a current type rated ATPL with enough hours on type.
Or click on this link Pilots - work with us - flydubai (http://flydubai.com/english/work-with-us/pilots.aspx), they are after non-type rated pilots (min 2500 hrs TT) and pay £6,500 a month for a FO and £8,500 for a captain (though you need 737 time for their captain slots). Not quite 3rd world, but anywhere in the middle east is close in my opinion!

[Tourist]

Bollocks

The employment world for rotary guys is rosy.
There are loads of well paid jobs for ex mil guys, and they don't involve jumping through endless HR hoops either.
Starting wage for rotary guys with mil experience is hugely above fixed wing.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Not if you want to jump across to the airline world its not tourist. Would be genuinely interested to know where these well paid heli jobs are? I would be willing to continue on rotary post military so long as it pays well and isnt flying rigs from some depressing hole like Aberdeen or Hull!

[Tourist]

Aberdeen and Hull are not where I would choose to live, but then neither is London. At least the jobs are commutable, unlike many airline jobs, and have you investigated the start wages of airline FOs? Even BA, the holy grail of UK airlines is starting you on 50Kish.
If you have a decent rotary background and some mates you must be able to walk in to a better wage than that.
Right now, there is a police advert, and a royal helicopter advert, and that is outside of all the north sea and exotic special skills jobs around.

[High_Expect]

Tourist correct me if I'm wrong (I saw that add a few days ago now) isn't the Royal Helicopter job recruiting for a Chief Pilot?? With a salary of £65k ish.... Hardly all that good when there is no career progression available with that company! Do the people behind it also run Air Tanker?? Or maybe the rigs is where all those rotary mates will become rich!

[RAFEngO74to09]

This is the ad for Chief Pilot - Queen's Helicopter Flight:

Apply for the Chief Pilot - The Queens Helicopter Flight job posted by The Royal Household | AviationJobSearch.com (http://www.aviationjobsearch.com/jobs/pilots/south_east/chief_pilot_the_queens_helicopter_flight-100563.html)

[Chris Griffin]

Pelikanpete

That is probably the biggest chip i've seen.

I cant be arsed to take you to task over the majority of the utter drivel you spout, but suffice to say that jobs are out there for the right experience levels, and certainly not the tens of thousand hour captains.

I'm non-type rated, have got through to final stages for 2 major players and been invited to interview for a third; I didn't even apply to one airline recruiting at the moment and got a phone call inviting me to interview. I'm not counting chickens whatsoever and don't intend for this to come across as a menage a une (pardon le francais rodney) but there are more opportunities for mil ME now than I have seen before.

Sorry its not worked out for you but for those that have the experience - things are progressing in the right direction.

[Tourist]

"Chief Pilot" is a great term.
Makes it sound very grand.
Boss of 1 helicopter.
The money seems reasonable for the job, don't you think?

[High_Expect]

Yeah fair call! Do you think they will take me on? I've flown half an hour in a Hughes 500 and got about 20mins on a Squirrel......... and if I'm being totally honest it's not a difficult as you boys make out

[Pelikanpete]

I thought my comments would not be liked by some. My point was to be careful to look before you jump - the private sector opportunities and pay scales are not as good as they once were, even for drivel hating, sky gods like Chris Griffin. Don't know anything about rotary jobs just talking about airline jobs for the lower hour guys with no transport time. No chip, no agenda other than if I were in the later groups position I would not be PVRing - Good luck.

[lj101]

I've had to do exactly the same thing renewing my life PPL and FRTOL after 15 years absence from flying. Somewhere deep in Lasors it does actually state the requirement which is something along the lines of:

If your pilot's licence is lapsed (ie not current) for more than 10 years you have to retake the FRTOL but do not have to pay the associated fees.

It's a bit of a hassle but things do change in 15 years and you cannot be expected to remember everything anyway, so best that people have to prove their competence.

Pelikanpete - you say you are 35? One of your posts from 2008 as above

Incidentally, I have spent about five of the last ten years working abroad including some pretty scabby parts of West Africa and the Middle East. I think it is entirely reasonable for people to warn wannabes about how difficult it is - it's just a shame that wannabes always ignore the warning and jump in with both feet. As long as flying schools are churning out far more pilots than there are jobs, people will suffer massive financial consequences and disappointment

... and this from 2011. Are you in a time warp?

[Pelikanpete]

PPL aged 17 then no flying again until I left the Army in 2008. Since then Frozen ATPL via the modular route. Total time working in scabby places over 10 years has been in excess of 5 years (none of it flying).

You've trawled through my previous posts to try and clutch at any ammunition that might rubbish what I've said. If it makes you feel better then I'm happy to agree I was wrong, there has been no recession, there are jobs for everyone and the terms are the best they have ever been. No need to look before you leap just get in there and PVR - if you're a QSP with 1000 hours rotary and a PPL all airlines will be climbing over themselves to employ you. Anyway, this is all getting rather tedious - so just ignore my original comments if you don't like them.

By the way I'm not the one with the chip, some of you lot have a post history that makes you look like RAF trade union leaders.

[Lima Juliet]

PVR date confirmed on JPA today (less than 6 months) :ok:
Job offer in writing last week :ok:
Mid-life crisis "me present" on order :ok:
SPVA pension prediction bigger than Pensions Calculator :ok:

One very happy bunny :ok::ok::ok:

[Rigga]

Well done LEON, If thats the right thing to say...

Nice to see confidence put into practice. I hope your happy in the new regime - wherever that is.

Does that mean less posts in here?

[brit bus driver]

For the record, I believe BA's starting pay is higher than 3 years ago (pay cut, pay rise) and T&Cs unchanged. Well, you now have to work an additional 5 hours a year on short haul. Another 2 weeks off this month.....

My grass is so green, I need to get out and cut it again.

Oh, and I wonder what the CP of TQF (helo division) entail.....garden parties galore and a crack at Pippa?:ok:

[onthebumline]

Pelikanpete,

You should be posting on the wannabees forum. The fact that you were in the army has no relevence to your current aviation credentials or adds nothing to your understanding of post service prospects for military pilots. Get yourself on to wannabes so you can drip with the others who have dropped 50k on becoming a pilot. This forum is for military pilots to bask in self pity undisturbed by uninformed punters. Why did you not join the AAC anyway?

[CrabInCab]

Pelikanpete - you don't bear a striking resemblance to Idi Amin do you by any chance? I once was aware of a bloke who did look a bit like him and talks a lot like you do...

:}

[cazatou]

CinC

Careful - He will pronounce himself "King of Scotland" !!!

[jayteeto]

I am surprised to hear about the rotary world job market being bouyant. I work for one of the major UK onshore players and although we are recruiting, the company generally go for people who can get an IR easily. The military package is good for that, however the police market is dead and buried at this time, corporate talk the talk but the punters are hanging on to their money at the moment. Shawbury is laying off instructors and the offshore market is 'steady' but hardly begging for pilots. Overseas contracts are avaiable, but what a c@@p lifestyle. Rotary pilots wanting airlines are getting jobs, but the companies are insisting on large cash sums for the conversion and no pay until line checks are done. That can take months. A helicopter pilot I know, has 737 experience and contacted ###2 Airlines about their recent ad for ex-mil pilots. They were not interested because he was already rated and they wanted the upfront money for conversion. It wasn't the military experience they wanted, it was the gratuity payment!!
I am happy after 7 years on the outside, my old job 'disappeared' last year and I was lucky to find a new one locally, my wages are just now reaching my military levels and quality of life is much better. However, be aware that things are not quite as rosy as some people make out, job security is not secure, just be careful out here!!!!

[chopabeefer]

Jayteeto

Valid points all, but you may have missed the fact that job security (or at least satisfaction) is not a lot better inside at the moment either! The RAF Manning experts chopped 1/2 the studes at SY earlier this year, and have just increased PVR times because they need to stem the outflow as we apparently don't have enough pilots. :ugh: But you have to ask for what exactly...Merlin going to Navy (probably), SAR going...somewhere. Leaves Chinnies and the plastic pig. That's it. Not the world you left by a long way - it is currently a desperately sad place to be, and the only certainty we have is that it is going to get worse (and that was the OFFICIAL line recently from the Liaison team at SY). It has ceased to be a career and is now a job. Speak to studes at SY, and ask them their plans, and the answers are overwhelmingly along the lines of 'I'll do this for 6 years or so, then leave and do something else'. You can count those who view the RAF as a long term career on the fingers of one foot. I work with them everyday, and given the future they face, I cannot blame them to be honest. So so Sad. The RAF has been decimated by our Senior Officers - not one of them willing to defend the Service over his pension. We are about flying and aircraft, NOT JPA, IT initiatives or the other bolloc*s we spend millions on. No Harrier, No MPA, SAR going, Merlin going, Sentinel going, DHFS looking to sell 2 Griffins.etc etc. You were right to leave. I was wrong to stay.

[Tourist]

Jayteeto

Offshore has certainly taken a few recently and are looking for more, SAR is still taking people, and by no means all overseas are crap. Some of them are spectacular in terms of wage and lifestyle.

Your mate who didn't get the Jet2 job is being sour as most of the ex mil guys are getting the Type Rating for free after a bit of negotiation, so something doesn't ring true with his dit.

[binsleepen]

Jayteeto,

I know 6 ex-mil guy who have joined Jet2 since Nov last year and they were all bonded for 3 years for there TR, i.e. none of them had to pay anything up front. Of those people joining from other backgrounds and experience some have had to pay upfront for all costs and some for a proportion.

Regards

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Regarding the rotary pilot situation, I heard a rumour the other day that all of the surviving post-SDSR studes who were holding for DHFS are being restreamed to either Linton or Cranwell, as DHFS has temporarily closed its doors to all ab initios.

[Yozzer]

The rumour I have heard from DHFS is that 5 FBH MEARW Instructors are being made redundant and that 2 of 11 Griffin are being sold. If 2 x Griffin are to go then the present fleet of S-I-X-T-Y R-U-L-E O-K (11 helicopters) will need to loose two letters. The quick fix would be to loose O & K but there must be a Ppruner who can lose two letters and rearrange the fleet to befit something more appropriate for todays Rotary School of Excellence.

On a more serious note; 5 staff and two cabs in percentage of overall fleet terms is quite draconian, especially as normally civilian contracts are paid for up front. But if FBH are finals for the history book with the advent of MFTS Rotary it could be that goodwill has long gone in favour of 'Thats business'.

[LFFC]

Blow at RAF Shawbury as training staff axed
(http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2011/08/19/blow-at-raf-shawbury-as-training-staff-axed/)
FB Heliservices, a defence contractor which has a base at RAF Shawbury, has announced it is making six helicopter training pilots and aircrew compulsorily redundant.

A further two roles are to be axed at RAF Valley on Anglesey, where Prince William is now based as a Flight Lieutenant.

Company director James Goodbourn said the cuts would leave 23 pilots in its employment at RAF Shawbury, in addition to the pilot flying instructors already employed directly by the military.

[chopabeefer]

RAF Students at Shawbury briefed yesterday. Bad news all round. Those finishing 660/705 (Squirrel) will hold for at least 18 months before starting the MEARW (60Sqn Cse) on the Griffin. The frontline simply cannot train them - no serviceable aircraft, and no slots. 35 Students post EFT creamed off to rotary will now be sent back down to Multi's (where there is a job, albeit really boring) or worse still, fast jets - an absolute slap in the face for someone who joined to do a job and was going to the sharp end.

An 18 month hold for a student with 60 hrs is a killer - they will not have enough experience to retain their skills - after 18 mths they should start again, and no, a refresher is NOT adequate. Yet again standards drop, a lesser end result is accepted, and our wonderful senior officers sign off on it.:=

Good job we have the cadre of instructors to keep them up to speed. Oh wait - we will have so few students that QHI's will be sent to the Army to keep current - teaching at Wallop. Before you lynch me - I have the very highest regard for the AAC, it's pilots and QHI's - supremely capable all, but it is worthy of mention that the RAF will be looking to the Army to keep its pilots current and proficient. This is gen.

The RAF is dying. It is in that horrible state, lying in bed, diseased and pained, knowing itself the end is nigh. It looks to friends for reassurance, but they look away, afraid to betray their feelings.

If you have an option, I believe now is the time. The ship is sinking. Rats may desert the ship, but Bader jumped out when the aircraft was doomed too - there is no stigma.

[BlindWingy]

The guys must be happy they're getting a second crack at fast jets!

[Birdbath]

Can't wait till next week, hope I'm one of the lucky few volunteers(according to diaspora). A few worried people here in Northern Europe, the message is expect bad news: volunteer be damned, don't volunteer be damned. All under control..............

[Whenurhappy]

For those planning to leave - don't under-estimate your market potential.

I can't talk about the flying industry, but the majority of those leaving the RAF over the next year will be ground-based branch and trades people. Having spent the last year cultivating a network of City contacts, albeit from afar, I have been told-off by several of them when enquiring for jobs they feel are well below my capabilities. In sum - if you are a senior officer, bid for 'director' posts; junior officer/WO - 'senior manager' slots etc. Spread your love around a number of recruiting agencies, but realise that they don't work for you. Moreover, you are likely to get a higher remuneration package applying directly to potential employers. Circulate your CV (and cover letters) to your contacts and accept criticism on the chin - after all, they are trying to help you.

Times are tough out there, but there is an enormous amount of goodwill being extended to Service personnel. That might be sufficient to get your first foot-hold - and after then, well, it's up to the individual.

For those who will receive news on 1 september, good luck and see it as an opportunity to exploit your potential. After all, we have all been through much harder selectron and training programmes than almost anyone outside of the services - and we passed! In comparison, getting a 'civvie' job should be a doddle!

[Exascot]

Seventeen years and 86000 hours later

That's impressive, about 420 hrs a month :p

[brakedwell]

I think 'selection and maintenance of the aim' is the order of the day-and the aim is to get a job do the 'boring' type of flying you have described

'Boring' type of flying can turn out to be a very gratifying and interesting career. My dream of being a fighter pilot was shattered when Hunter courses were suddenly cancelled and I was posted to Transport Command as a Hastings second pilot, courtesy of the Duncan Sandys Axe in 1957. Seventeen years and 8600 hours later I PVR'd and spent the next twenty years in the LHS of commercial airliners.

[brakedwell]

luchboxlegend - Room parties - It only becomes tedious when you are outnumbered ten to two by girls who are all young enough to be your daughter. :E

[VinRouge]

As the virgin girls say.... If your first wife isn't a hostie, your second one will be!

[BEagle]

Some years ago, the captain and navigator, a couple of ageing lotharios of the VC10 world, were staying in the same hotel as a ba crew. Fancying their chances, they spotted the ba captain and announced that they were having a room party, to which the ba crew were welcome. "....and bring the cabin crew as well"......:\

The party was going well, but the two lounge lizards were being rather restrained, so that they wouldn't appear uncouth in front of the ba crew. Who hadn't yet turned up. Then there was a knock on the door and a couple of gel-haired cabin crew in tight shirts and leather trousers appeared. "Ooh, is this the party room? Hello, dears, I'm Nigel and this is my friend Justin".

Whereupon most of the Vc10 crew necked their drinks and made their excuses. As he left the Air Engineer (it had to be!) called out in a loud voice "Don't fancy yours much, Captain!".....:ooh:

Mind you, I do recall a much more interesting encounter with a ba TriShaw crew in Bermuda....:E

[Exascot]

Combined RAF VC10 and BA crew party in India. Flt Eng went in to the bathroom followed seconds later by a BA woofter. I said to the BA capt this is going to be interesting just as the chap came flying out with a bloody nose.

If your first wife isn't a hostie, your second one will be!

Wrong, PMRAFNS aeromed nursing sister :ok:

[Al-Berr]

Well said casbo!!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

CASBO,

Virtually every thread in here ends up in the manner you describe, the whole forum is populated with sad sorry civilians who simply can't let go and feel obliged to witter on about the "good old days"

The likelihood in here of a military thread for military folk with only military folk commenting is like hens ******* teeth, it's about time the Mods changed the forum title to

Military Aircrew a forum for military, sad sorry ex military folk who have not been able to find a life outside the military and need to use Pprune as a social crutch, any other sad ****er with even the most tenuous link to the military and those who love the whoosh that aircraft make.

Just about covers the daily input to this forum :ok:

[5 Forward 6 Back]

While I appreciate the input of the "old and bold" cadre here, I must admit that we seem to be going through a bad spell where a modern thread is rapidly derailed with "that reminds me of Tengah in 1962" posts. Which then lead to something else totally irrelevant, and then something even less relevant than that.

Thing is, ridiculous homophobia aside, I don't mind a thread where someone mentioned room parties getting a quick room party anecdote thrown in it. At least it's vaguely on topic!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Thread ON


Don't make a pvr an emotional decision-remain dispassionate and focused


Wise words - too many people, even experienced ones, seem to PVR to make a point, 'that'll show them' etc etc. Rightly or wrongly, the people in charge won't even notice, let alone care.

Thread OFF

[Fire 'n' Forget]

Military Aircrew a forum for military, and navy muppets continually trying to justify harriers/carriers and sad sorry ex military folk who have not been able to find a life outside the military and need to use PPRuNe as a social crutch, any other sad ****er with even the most tenuous link to the military and those who love the whoosh that aircraft make.

Didn't want our 'coastguard' force feeling left out. :hmm:

[cazatou]

CASBO

I am impressed by your enthusiasm for Pprune which has enabled you contribute 3 posts in 196 days - one of which was to complain about the posts of regular contributors.

Many of those that you complain about have experience involving several thousands of flight hours operating in many dozens of Countries (North and South of the Equator) in all sorts of weather in Peace and in War. Personally, I was only on my fifth Log Book when I retired.

Perhaps you would consider an apology?

PS I converted Exascot to Type on his first Squadron.

Cazatou

[Willard Whyte]

I prefer it when threads ebb and flow as per a conversation. To stick rigidly to a single subject seems blinkered even by the standards of the most unimaginative of this board's members.

[brakedwell]

What exactly is a goonbag?

[cazatou]

brakedwell

As they are complaining about our ages the answer to the question "What is a goonbag?" will have to be that it is an item belonging to Spike Milligna - the well known spelling mistake!!:ok:

[BEagle]

cazatou, perhaps the main reason for the insulting comments from predominantly sandaholic yoofs is that they are in self-denial about the spam bum-licking, unelected world policeman role the UK's armed forces have taken on, thanks to that lying little $hit Bliar?

Invading other peoples' countries at the behest of some dim-witted 'merkan presidente is certainly not something which would have recruited me into the RAF. I don't believe in illegal wars.

Why on earth should 'expeditionary warfare' be considered the primary military task for the RAF these days?

Is it surprising that so many people seem to want out? They might cite all manner of excuses, but I suspect that the basic fact is that few people in the RAF still believe in what they're doing.

[cazatou]

BEagle

I agree that we had a better class of "War" in my younger days - Operation Sheepskin was my favourite followed by Operation Corporate.

[Exascot]

Secondly, many 'woofters' serve with us, both bluntie and aircrew, front-end and back. Classic :ok:

Yep,and Cazatou is correct, it was the first time a P/O had been seen with wings on the squadron operational for many decades.

[Gocatcomplete]

Oh no, the two old duffers have started spouting bolleaux again. I can't quite decide which one of you reminds me of Uncle Albert in only fools and horses. I think both of you.

"During the war"

[Wrathmonk]

one of you reminds me of Uncle Albert

....the other Cpl Jones from Dad's Army ;):E

[Exascot]

Just to keep slightly on thread I really wish all you guys the very best. And, yes it is not like it used to be. I was very, very lucky. I am sorry we have upset a few apple carts referring to the good old days.

However:

Referring to me:

sad sorry ex military folk who have not been able to find a life outside the military

Just PM me if you want to know what I do now :ok:

[charliegolf]

What exactly will the four of you write about if all us oldies are barred?

JPA, OOA, non-aircraft carriers and pay as you dine?

CG

(No stick, no vote but functioning keyboard.):ok:

[brakedwell]

It's about time the Mods changed the forum title to
Military Aircrew a forum for military, sad sorry ex military folk who have not been able to find a life outside the military and need to use PPRuNe as a social crutch

Seldomfitforpurpose of Oxfordshire - This sad sorry ex military old git did find a rewarding and fulfilling life outside the military and has never regretted PVR'ing. I still attend the odd reunion, but sadly I find the narrow, blinkered outlook of old friends who stayed in to the bitter end rather depressing. In truth, I feel sorry for them.

For those who are considering leaving prematurely good luck, you won't regret it!

[minigundiplomat]

Speaking dispassionately, I can see both sides of the argument here.

The old and bold have a lot to offer, having seen many similar situations before. However, threads containing topical debate do seem to get hijacked by the WIW brigade. That said, those currently serving are equally wired to hijack the thread onto harriers/carriers, jointery and JPA etc.

So, add to the thread if you have something relevant to say [whether serving or not] seems to be a sensible policy. Nostalgia should stay in the relevant section unless it has a direct relevance to the thread.

Now, would you like these toys back....

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Thanks MGD, the voice of reason, as ever.

Questions I asked myself whilst in(since throughout training I was surrounded by QFIs PVRing):

What would it take to get me to PVR?

What makes me think that isn't going to happen?

Does it make more sense to go now or wait for it to happen?

I would be interested to know from those currently in what the answer to the above questions are, i.e. what their 'last straw' would be.

(Obviously many of us see the current situation as way past what was acceptable to us, as we PVR'ed some time ago. The perspective is obviously different 'on the inside'.)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Fox3

I have had the very good fortune to have had 3 mini careers during my time so the shine has never really worn off for me. 14 years fixing aircraft , remustered to ALM, had 3 tours rotary and now seeing my time out on Albert. I am as happy and content with my lot today as I was in 1974 when I joined.

PVR has never been in my dictionary as the carrot of a PA pension based on Pension 05 terms at age 55 means I will never have to work again.

The service is definitely not what it was but I doubt you will find a serviceman or woman anywhere who does not look back on "better" days but in the current economic climate I doubt very many of us are actually worse off than our civilian counterparts :ok:

[sidewayspeak]

Just PM me if you want to know what I do now

That's the whole point old chap... we don't. We are not interested in any of you old retired blokes (I could be much more 'direct' but don't want to make this too personal or rude). As someone still serving, I want to hear rumours and exchange info with people who are current. I have no interest in what you did, how good it was in your day. Bringing it back to track - I want to hear stories about PVRs from serving personnel.

If that is offensive, sorry but I cannot sugar-coat it.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sideways,

Sadly blaming the old and bold for continuously screwing up threads with their endless drip drip drip of when I was a VC 10 this and Queens Flt that is not where your ire should be aimed.

If you look at the entrance criteria for this forum you will clearly see there is no mention of "Ex" anywhere so maybe it's the mods who should be your target as they seem content to allow such blatant forum abuse.

If you want military talk from military folk sadly you ain't getting that in here anytime soon :ok:

[Biggus]

....and you've stated your intent to stop posting on here when you retire.

We'll find out if you hold to that in what, 18 odd months?

[FlapJackMuncher]

So.
Is it time for a 'Memories of Times Past'/'Prunes I Have Known' sub-forum?

[brakedwell]

FlapJackMuncher
Aren't you aware of the Aviation History and Nostalgia Forum?

[Canadian Break]

Caz

I'm pretty sure you typed in "that well known Spiling Mistook", but your computer misinterpreted it! CB:ok:

[cazatou]

CB

French computer!!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Seldom, thanks for answering the question.

Sideways - personally, as ex-mil, I see myself as here under sufferance, and try to restrict myself to relevant comment when asked on a thread like this. Not all always do, to your obvious and understandable annoyance.

I would have thought, however, a PVR thread implies some are considering life on the outside, with which some of us oldies might be able to help.

[Lima Juliet]

By the sound of some of you wakners, I'm even more glad I'm leaving in just over 7 weeks. I for one never 'dissed' the old and bold that gave their wise opinion when they were either "in" or "retired" (at the odd Sqn Dining In or Happy Hour they turned up to) - you lose them from the forum and you will lose a valuable set of LIs and other pearls of wisdom; but it might stop the smell of wee...:ok:

Oh, I'll still be wearing my Crab Fat uniform/growbag most months, so I see myself as "entitled" to continue to contribute Pprune. The good news for me is that I no longer have to stomach the politics of what a majority of the Regular Officer Cadre seems to be becoming of late - spineless, self-obsessed, sycophantic and most of all only in it for themselves. There's definately no room for characters, individual flair, stove-piped excellence or FUN these days.

Good evening ladies and gentlemen...

LJ

[cazatou]

I remember many years ago (about 1970 actually) when on 46 Sqn (Andovers) we had an elderly Master Air Quartermaster (before that American abomination of Air Loadmaster was adopted) who failed his categorisation check in respect of combat survival conducted by a young Flt Sgt AQM.

Said Flt Sgt was surprised when the paperwork was returned to him with a note stating "I believe that you have made a mistake and you may wish to reconsider your assessment." He promptly returned the paperwork with a note stating that there was no mistake and the MAQM had failed the test.

Some days later he received a telephone call from a Very Senior Officer who suggested that he may wish to reconsider his decision - he refused. The VSO then pointed out the MAQM had been his Wop/AG during WW2 and had been shot down twice over enemy occupied territory - and had got back to Allied Lines both times!!

[Lima Juliet]

Caz

Wouldn't happen today in this man's Air Force. The jellyfish at the top would have them under admin action and off to Casework in a flash - no common sense and it's all about "meeting targets" and "performance indicators".

LJ

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

By the sound of some of you wakners, I'm even more glad I'm leaving in just over 7 weeks.

Devils legal thingy head on

In 7 weeks you will be a civilian, looking at the forum entry criterion do you see "civilian" mentioned anywhere......if not why will you stil be posting in here :confused:

Devils legal thingy head off :ok:

Edited because you can bet your bottom dollar some bed wetter will trot along with a spelling B....... :rolleyes:

[Spurlash2]

Oh, for some correct spOlling...

How did you know about the wet patches, Seldom?

*cough* will you stil be posting ...2 l's in still Seldom. Catchup.

[Lima Juliet]

Seldom

After PVR some of us decide there are still some good things (like flying AEF or UAS) about the RAF and take the Queen's Shilling on our own terms...

RAF Reserves - Homepage (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafreserves/)

Make sense?

LJ

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Seldom

After PVR some of us decide there are still some good things (like flying AEF or UAS) about the RAF and take the Queen's Shilling on our own terms...

RAF Reserves - Homepage (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafreserves/)

Make sense?

LJ

Makes a lot of sense to me but you will still be a civilian so the original question stands :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Civilian when at normal place of work but a serviceman when in uniform...

[brakedwell]

SFFP - Let's not forget this forum is part of the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Set up by a group of people you appear to disdain - Civilians!

[Willard Whyte]

I see IQs have dropped even further since I last posted.

This place is turning in to a turkey shoot.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SFFP - Let's not forget this forum is part of the Professional Pilots Rumour Network. Set up by a group of people you appear to disdain - Civilians!

No disdain at all chap, in fact quite the opposite. Come next Nov when I become a civilian in accordance with the forum rules I will no longer post in here out of respect to the site owners and their rules and regs :ok:

[vernon99]

No disdain at all chap, in fact quite the opposite. Come next Nov when I become a civilian in accordance with the forum rules I will no longer post in here out of respect to the site owners and their rules and regs

Are you really sure PVR is 18 months, do we have to wait so long.....:ok::}

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Are you really sure PVR is 18 months, do we have to wait so long.....:ok::}

Fulfilling my contract Vern, no quitter here chap :ok:

[2Planks]

In the words of Michael Winner "Calm Down Dear(s)". As with most forums treat them like a pub - if you don't like the atmosphere go somewhere else - don't try and change the clientele thats the Landlord's job - if he wants to.

Currently PPrune is an interesting pub - with lots of stories and advice - just occasionally the kids escape the playroom....:E