Crash-Cork Airport

[BigFrank]

TV programme from last night not easily available in Spain

But earlier BBC radio programme, Radio 4 "Face the facts" broadcast 2 or 3 weeks ago is available.

(Check the last 4 or 5 pages here and there was a direct link posted there I seem to remember.)

[kroack]

i already listen the radio broadcast. thanks!
let´s see if somebody uploads to youtube or similar.

for your info, the metro was totally prepared to make IFR approaches cat I.

[BigFrank]

Can you tell us anything about Air Lada ?

[BigFrank]

"Air Lada not listed as a 'Spanish' operator by Aviation Safety Network and considered to be 'not a certified air carrier' by the EU"

Given the expression which you posted as above, and given my earlier post (strictly as a layman on my part) ¿ who exactly was legally responsible for operating this aircraft ? when it took off from Belfast ("UK") and attempted to land in Cork (Ireland).

(I presume nobody on here will waste my time with names of pilots who were also killed tragically. I mean the bosses obviously. And the company. Wherever it/they is/ are.)

[BOAC]

Frank - I cannot help - that was the result of a bit of Googling. You are in a 'grey area', I'm afraid, and one which I hope will be tightened up.

[dldkjdfljk]

For those that wish to download and save the programme click this link to go to rapidshare download site.

The programme video does not expire or have playback restrictions however the link itself on rapidshare may expire

http://tinyurl.com/62j2u74

[JSCL]

Can someone verify the above URL?

[mad_jock]

Just ran it with a Linux box of tricks its fine

[kroack]

BigFrank you have a private message

[runway30]

The operator of an aircraft for the purpose of Public Transport has to hold an AOC. The 'operator' is defined as the person for the time being having the management of the aircraft. In the programme Flightline BCN, named as the AOC holder, clearly didn't have management of the aircraft, they didn't even know what operations it was undertaking or control of the crew. Therefore the question now has to be, was this aircraft being operated illegally?

[BigFrank]

Thanks for the info.

"Grey area..." Perhaps we should offer this to the TEFL operatives of the world as an example of "typical English/ British understatement" ?

[Sunnyjohn]

Air Lada operate one Metro which is owned by Euro Continental Air, who also own a second Metro which is operated by Flightline BCN. It is my belief that these three companies are one and the same but I am unable to find the facts to prove it. The Metro in the Cork accident was owned by Euro Continental Air and operated by Flightline BCN. One or all of these three companies must have hired the crew and arranged for their training.

[Sunnyjohn]

dldkjdfljk - Thanks for this, it worked fine. A well-researched programme - well done BBC 1 NI.

[jumpseater]

Sj
One or all of these three companies must have hired the crew and arranged for their training.

Hired, probably. 'Training' however is a bit vague. The investigation (assuming its similar to a UK in content/context) will look at the career path/history of the crew, including hours flown on type etc. Both may have come to the airline with a Metro type rating and hours on type, or may have done the type rating conversion with the airline in house, or a mix of both.

R30
The 'operator' is defined as the person for the time being having the management of the aircraft. In the programme Flightline BCN, named as the AOC holder, clearly didn't have management of the aircraft, they didn't even know what operations it was undertaking or control of the crew.

The flightplan will need to have been filed with CFMU/Eurocontrol, and the airframe and crew will need to have been 'allocated' to the flight by some one/organisation. The crew will have been rostered and known to report at airport X to brief and fly airframe Y to airport Z. To fly the schedule the organisation managing the flying programme will have known and scheduled to have an aircraft at Belfast to fly the route. Therefore there will be an easily identifiable organiser, (to the investigators), of that basic requirement to operate that schedule.

Fuel etc and handling issues will need to have been dealt with on a daily basis and the aircraft will need to have had line maintenance by an organisation too. Those personnel and organisation/s organising the essential requirements above, (a/c alloc / crew / handling / Mx), would likely be considered to be undertaking the 'management' of the airframe and crew.

[BigFrank]

Despite my confident post, nothing came out of the ether.

Could anyone who watched this closely tell me how the BBC deals with the issue of not being able to contact Air Lada. Do they for instance present this as just a minor hiccup or as a major issue that the company which operated (sic) the plane in question cannot be located ?

My suspicions, voiced earlier, that Air Lada = Linéas Aéreas de Andalucía seem to be correct. One of the directors of LAA is a lawyer in Andalucía it seems. Will he plead "ignorance of the law" I wonder, if indeed it is his company ?

And the question remains; why does Air Lada not come up on a search of commercial names in Spain ?

[forget]

BigFrank, you've probably seen this. 19 April 2011 amending Regulation (EC) No 474/2006 establishing the Community list of air carriers which are subject to an operating ban within the Community.

Do a word search on 'lada'.

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:104:0010:0034:EN:PDF

[mad_jock]

The prog was 50% interviews with pax and industry type folk. Most of it was pretty good apart from the expert saying the aircraft was unsuitable for flying in IMC because it didn't have efis and a flight director. They showed a sim with a Low viz approach which to be honest was pretty tame. They didn't show a real bum twitcher were you only get the first 2 lights. They showed the whole of the approach light tree from 200ft.

Then they started about the pilot experence and the FO, with an interview with his dad. Nothing suprising there apart from he only had 17 hours on type. I presume 1 hour of that would have been his base check. So in less than 16 hours he was line trained and sent out onto the line with a 1 week on the line Captain. He had mostly done night freight which as we all know a night Low viz approach is a different beast to a day one.

Then about a third was about the back office stuff about operational control which was really quite shocking. There is a triangle, one of the companys has dissappeared with several domestic addresses but nobody contactable (pilots and aircraft). The AOC holder saying that its not there problem because they didn't supply the pilots. And then ticket seller saying that thats all they do.

And they do think it was a major part of the story but linked in to the whole operational control issue.

Now I will state this is only a rumour I heard on the ramp.

Air Lada isn't in anway or form a commercial operator. The planes were owned/leased by some of the pilots flying them. They then piggy backed off someone elses AOC when they had a contract.

[BigFrank]

Many thanks.

Obviously the triangle on (non) responsibility is the core of the issue.

It seems like an attempt to organise a piss up in a brewery where everyone presumed that everyone else had sorted out the bottles and the glasses.

Except that with six people dead there is nothing to laugh about whatsoever.

And no way of knowing how many flights are operating today under the same conditions of confusion and ir-responsibility.

[Super VC-10]

Any connection between Air Lada / Linéas Aéreas de Andalucía and Ándalus Líneas Aéreas?

Ándalus Líneas Aéreas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%81ndalus_L%C3%ADneas_A%C3%A9reas)

[BigFrank]

Thanks.

I now accept now that Air Lada and "L A de A" are the same thing. Though why the coyness ????

The article on Wikipedia does quote one intriguing name which would lift us from the 5th division regional to the lowest realms of the Premier League i.e. Air Madrid.

This was a bottom of the market airline specialising in flights home to South America from Spain for the many immigrant workers who arrived here in the early part of the 21st century. It was not well thought of in many quarters and collapsed one Christmas about 3 years ago amidst very very very considerable economic, political and social rancour. I seem to remember that the actual coup de grâce took place when the Spanish aviation authorities finally withdrew its licence.

Wikipedia claims the people behind "L A de A" were ex-Air Madrid. ¿ Can anyone confirm this "Wiki-fact" ?

[Super VC-10]

The source for that info is possibly Gibnews, but a subscription is required to view material published before 2011.

[Tinwald]

'The flightplan will need to have been filed with CFMU/Eurocontrol, and the airframe and crew will need to have been 'allocated' to the flight by some one/organisation. The crew will have been rostered and known to report at airport X to brief and fly airframe Y to airport Z. To fly the schedule the organisation managing the flying programme will have known and scheduled to have an aircraft at Belfast to fly the route. Therefore there will be an easily identifiable organiser, (to the investigators), of that basic requirement to operate that schedule.'

Doh! I may be a Manxy but you don't need a degree in astrophysics to answer that question - begins in M and ends in 2. The whole operation is run from the hangar here at Ronaldsway. I even know the ops manager, yessir.

[BigFrank]

Air Lada = "L A de A" remains my hypothesis.

ALA, mentioned in Wikipedia and much earlier by myself, possibly from the same Wikipedia source, is different, is bankrupt and is "not part of this story" it seems.

Air Madrid collapsed more like 5 or 6 years ago it seems.

[runway30]

Tinwald

You seem to be suggesting that Manx2 is not a virtual airline or a ticketing agency but is actually an airline that can't be bothered to go through the inconvenience and expense of obtaining an AOC?

[Tinwald]

runway 30

When manx2 started up in 2006 they advertised themselves as an airline, they have since advertised themselves as the 'Island's Airline' and everyone who has flown with them have thought they were flying with an airline. Only those with a nouse of knowledge aboout their setup knew all along that it was nothing else but a ticketing agency and probably 90% of the numpties that sit in the keys probably had no idea about the setup either.

Never has Hayes breathed a word about getting an AOC; getting its own crew or aircraft. Sure, it has had to set up an ops organisation to keep the show on the road day to day but it has hoodwinked the Manx public into thinking it had its own nice little local airline from day uno.

[jumpseater]

tinwald
The whole operation is run from the hangar here at Ronaldsway. I even know the ops manager, yessir.

Presumably as 'only a Manxy':hmm: (your words not mine), you'll be as aware as the rest of us 'non Manxy's' that an 'airline' doesn't need an AOC. It has to use someone who has a current AOC.

Perhaps you could tell us exactly, (oh, and factually), A: what the ops manager and his teams duties and responsibilities agreed with the aircraft owners are are under the appropriate EU legislation. And crucially what tasks they actually perform on a daily basis relating to the relevant legislation.

Extra points will be added if you can tell us factually B: if the aircraft are wet/dry in, out, do the hokey pokey, leased etc, as you as a mere 'manxy' will clearly know, (it not being astrophysics and all that), this will have a bearing on the operational control and responsibilities of the parties involved in this accident.

I look forward to some facts, which'll be rare on prune, but I'm a glass half full type of chap..

[Sunnyjohn]

Tinwald: Therefore there will be an easily identifiable organiser, (to the investigators), of that basic requirement to operate that schedule.'
You quite cleary know very little about the organisation, or lack of it, that goes on in Spain.

[captplaystation]

If you research Spanish accident reports for say the last 10-15 years you will find that crashing Metroliners has been a bit of a national sport.
I imagine with its high aspect ratio wing & a few other quirky features, that it is not such a forgiving little beast. Unfortunately the individuals flying this tricky little contraption , in the dodgiest companies around, are of course the least "valuable" in the job market I.E. the least experienced.
Difficult to change that situation, but the least one would wish for is that they could resist the pressure to bust minima, & indeed even less forgivably, commence 3 approaches blatantly illegally, even though working for several gash operators simultaneously.
That they found themselves unable to resist this perceived, & indeed probably very real, pressure, is finally likely to be the biggest single cause that can be identified.
Sure, scheduling such a recently qualified Crew pairing together was hardly ideal, but ,had they not chosen to commence 3 illegal approaches, and seemingly further excacerbated the risk by commencing their Go-Arounds from way below minima, this would not in itself have presented a problem.
Thanks to the link previously given, I have managed to watch the programme on BBC Ireland.
Very well researched IMHO, and really rather tragic.

[BigFrank]

For those of us on the ground, both metaphorically and literally, it would be interesting to have some background figures to allow our own risk analysis.

Do Spanish pilots have a disproportionate propensity for pranging such planes (sic) or are such planes more common in Spanish airspace ?

If the latter is true (as I suspect/ hope) then the statistical skew would, for me at least, be akin to the dearth of deaths amongst cyclist riding pushbikes on motorways.

(None of which I hope is to treat with any levity the deaths of 6 people, including a Spanish pilot, in this tragic accident.)

[captplaystation]

Can't find the stats, I will try and find time to look at ASN later, but I remember at least 3 fatals.
I think much of this was due to the aircraft being used by dodgy second rate companies who were employing inexperienced (read low paid) crews to do night freight, with all the attendant "niceties" like overweight etc "possibly" present. If I remember correctly they were all freighters, don't recall any pax fatalities.
Neither the most glamorous , nor well self-regulated , end of the market.

[BigFrank]

Thanks for the additional info.

I, for one, add the above quote to my long list of oxymorons; still headed by military intelligence.

[Sunnyjohn]

I found these two at:
Accident Database: Aircraft Crash Details > Swearingen 226 Metroliner (http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/aircraft_detail.cgi?aircraft=Swearingen+226+Metroliner)

Swiftair 28th July 1998
The aircraft crashed short of Runway 25 at Barcelona while attempting to land on a cargo flight from Palma de Mallorca. The aircraft was too low on approach, and impacted the airport boundary fence with one of its wings, causing a loss of control. (sound familiar . . .?)

Tadair 12th April 2002
The aircraft, on a flight from Madrid-Barajas Airport, crashed while attempting to land on Runway 24L Palma Mallorca.
CAUSES: "It is considered that the accident occurred as a result of the aircraft having made a very tight turning maneuver carried out at night at low altitude and descending on a nonstandard approach, not in accordance with normal procedures and procedures of the company. The crew could not control the aircraft in descent due to a possible situation of stall onset of slipping in the turn, or both reasons. (Online translation of Spanish)

And I found this at:
Metroliner Parcelforce On The Daily Shift — Trip Reports Forum | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/trip_reports/read.main/178099/)

Sunday 22nd August 2010
Service Manx2 NM 212 operated by Euro Continental Air
Scheduled: 13.00 // 13.40
Booking for this flight is done via the company´s website directly.

Notice who the operator was? So some time between August 2010 and February 2011 the operator changed to BCN Barcelona, or Air Lada, a fact which Manx2 must have been aware of.

[BigFrank]

The plot thickens.

My latest take is that

Air Lada is just another name for L A de A.
Flysur is/ was another name for the same thing.
TAER Andalus likewise.

So we have 4 names at least in the pot, as above.

But then these all connect to Top Fly a flying school based in Sabadell, just outside Barcelona (also in Huesca though now closed there) which was founded in 1991, which hit major financial problems early in 2011, whose employees struck over non-payment of wages, which was bought out by a Dutch company who relaunched the venture on 12th Feb under the same name (!) but which has now hit even graver financial troubles and has had its premises sealed by the Guardia Civil on May 7th due to a failure to meet its commitments either to the Spanish taxman or to the Spanish National Insurance office leaving 60 students on the ground.

And where did the the Spanish pilot who was in charge of this flight live?

You got it in one. Sabadell !

And where did he train ?

Right first time !

Not a very pretty picture, for in addition to the solid smokescreen of different names, the 4 identical companies named above are owned mainly by building companies trying to diversify out of the Spanish housing bubble. Which does not exactly inspire confidence in their likely interest in the finer points of airline procedures. Well not in me !

[BigFrank]

A cursory search for the company Tadair, mentioned previously, strongly indicates that Tadair was in fact the commercial transport branch of Top Fly flying school.

¿ Small world the Spanish aviation one ?

[kroack]

please get first informed and be sure of waht you (all say)

TADAIR never had any relation with TOPFLY, topfly had his own airline..

Airlada had never relation with FLYSUR or Taer ANDALUS. please please....

[BigFrank]

..."my latest take is that..." and "...strongly indicates..."

shows that I am working in the dark and that I have no insight/ special knowledge into/ of Spanish aviation, as I have clearly stated here.

The first questions which anyone with knowledge of Spanish aviation can tell us are "Who/ what/ where is Air Lada". And why is it so hard to locate?

The second is:

Were Tadair (founded 1990) and Top Fly (founded 1991) rival flying schools both based at Sabadell Airport and both working in opposition from then till 2004 when Tadair collapsed.


A third:

What is the relation beteween Air Lada and Top Fly (and Euro Continental) if any ?

Plus any other information you care to give.

I am only too pleased to read accurate information and willing to admit my own lack of knowledge and erroneous speculation. The latter takes place primarily due to lack of the former.

[Sunnyjohn]

Airlada had never relation with FLYSUR or Taer ANDALUS. please please....
I think Kroack is right here. Flysur and Andalus both went out of business within a year (2008).

[captplaystation]

Does it really matter? the name of the fly-by-night owner that they used ? doubt if any one of those quoted was any better than the other :=

What matters is that current legislation leaves the unsuspecting pax flying with (supposedly) a "local" (& so proud of that in their ads, weren't they? ) operator,but in reality finds themselves , in the back of a ship owned/operated (perchance both? ) by any Tom, Dick , or Manuel, that offers the lowest price and holds an AOC from anywhere acceptable to a JAR registered operator.

All oranges are NOT the same, for the avoidance of doubt.

[BigFrank]

I acept the errors of having linked some companies mentioned; this was implicit/ explicit in my last post I feel.

I remain interested in the links between those companies which I mentioned subsequently, in my last post, and await accurate information on these matters.

Does it matter ?

Given that the damage is already done at Cork, arguably no.

However it strikes me that shining a light in these dark corners cannot but be good for the travelling public within the EU; a category to which I certainly belong.

(It so happens that the triangle Spain- "Northern Ireland"- Ireland is of particular interest to me but the issues at stake transcend this personal emotion I am sure.)

[Mr Optimistic]

Thanks to this my daughter is now insisting we use the Steam Packet for our next trip to the IOM.:(

[Sunnyjohn]

Well, this company clearly doesn't let the small matter of a lost aircraft and the death of six people get in the way of their progress. They've now acquired an Embraer EMB 120 Brasilia:
Profile on Flightline (Spain) | Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation - CAPA (http://www.centreforaviation.com/profiles/airlines/flightline-spain-ftl)

[captplaystation]

Sunnyjohn & BigFrank,

There are another two fatals on ASN's database.

18/02/98 another Metro operated by Ibertrans Aerea which crashed during an attempted return to BCN after departure for a nightmail flt to Brussels, 2 fatalities.
10/10/01, this time a Merlin IVA (pretty much the same type) which crashed into the Med with 10 fatalities following a suspected lightning strike/CB encounter whilst flying BCN- Oran.

Another couple of non fatal accidents in there too, for good (?) measure.

[BigFrank]

I have been trying to locate this for some time without success.

It has been posted recently elsewhere on these boards however.

Specifically within the section Miscellaneous/ Airlines, airports...
where it goes under the title "EASA..safa". I posted there that I would myself post the link here but I have not managed to do so; but I am informing you where to find it. Currently it has fallen to near the foot of the front page.

(As well as some disturbing comments about 2/3 UK airlines, one of whom I would describe as a major 2nd division outfit, and several other references en passant to worries related to other major EU countries [and to Israel]) the description printed by the EU of its attempts to get to the bottom of the FlightlineBCN/ Air Lada/ Euro Continental charade of buck passing and subterfuge certainly does not inspire any confidence in me.

And that exercise in hand-wringing is only undertaken after 6 people including both crew members ¡ have died !

Is anybody taking the issue of the game played by these "airlines" not to mention the games played by the famous Manx2 "non-airline" and/ or their equivalents elsewhere in the EU seriously, as I write ?

[BOAC]

BF - I would like to read that - can you narrow down the location of
"Currently it has fallen to near the foot of the front page."?

[BigFrank]

Ignoring the major sub-divisions in orange on the front page, we are posting within "Rumours and news" which is the first specific forum on the front page of this website.

If you count down to the 22nd such level of specific forums on the front page then you get to "Airlines, airports...." (or something like that)

Within that forum, the post you want is currently near the foot of the first page and called "Easa safa"

(I guess that Easa safa in the search box at the top will get you there too. Nope. Doesn´t seem to work. Just count to 22 it seems.)

Interested to hear your comments after you read it.

[SWBKCB]

Links here - para 19-25

EUR-Lex - - EN (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:104:0010:01:EN:HTML)

[BigFrank]

Moltes gràcies.

Muchas gracias.

...and as for the content ?

What it tells you about the attempts by the EU to control non-EU i.e.Manx based airlines or ticket sellers or who knows what operating with impunity within the jurisdiction of the EU ? And the EU based airlines or para-airlines or airline-type-entities operating mainly (though not exclusively) in and around Barcelona ?

[BOAC]

Thanks BF - I have it. Difficult to read and possibly politically 'evasive'. The sort of report that can be 'buried' in history and not picked up on by the 'media'. I guess Manx2 does not appear as it is not an 'Air Carrier'? A big hole in the system. I cannot fathom the 'Oasis' bit, although there was an Oasis International Listed as Spanish until 2006 I think.

Perhaps some media folk may show some interest and do some more digging? Good work from you.

[jumpseater]

Easa report

Having read it, it isn't clear if the AOC review was insigated prior to the accident on 10th Feb, All references are 'March 2011' or later. The way I read it I get the impression that these were perhaps follow up actions after the accident at Cork, again perhaps after the investigators looked at the operational control and management of the aircraft.

PARA 23
The air carrier Flightline was heard by the Air Safety Committee on 5 April 2011. They briefed that they had introduced revised procedures to enhance the operational control of Flightline flights, particularly those operating away from their main base, had amended their Operations Manual to include:ooh: guidance on the use of alternate aerodromes, had amended their training programme to reinforce pilot knowledge of operating procedures, and had revised their pilot selection procedures.

[ZimmerFly]

Perhaps this is the "Oasis" mentioned.

Privacy Policy - Oasis Flight | Private Charter (http://www.oasisflight.co.uk/index.php?page=privacy)

[andianjul]

"Well self-regulated" is a quaint ideal and, I agree, quite an oxymoron in reality.
I added "sustainable growth" to my own list of oxymorons yesterday. Of course, sustainable growth is only possible where you have infinite resources. When will the economists ever learn that our planet's resources are finite? :{

[BigFrank]

I did not originate the correct link either technically or indeed in discovery terms. I chanced to spot it elsewhere in a section of this board which I don´t normally visit.

I had intended to keep chasing it, but life gets in the way. However the total silence of the majority of UK/ Spanish / Irish media on most of the issues mentioned here remains striking. (Notwithstanding the BBC radio programme from London and the tv programme from Belfast).

I did incidentally see a turbo-prop plane in the FlightlineBCN colours on local tv yesterday. It was linked to a sports story where the Barcelona basketball team ( ¿ Regal ?) flew to a match in Vitoria, in the Basque Country and were delayed for two hours in arriving. Due to some sort of problem with the air transport ! Provided by....the plane in the shot.

[Swiss Cheese]

Rest assured that a considerable number of lights are being shone from different sources and angles into this preventable tragedy.

The central thread is why two qualified pilots agreed on 3 occasions to fly an approach three times that simply should not have been made. If my maths is correct, that is 6 individual mistakes for starters.

Consider for a moment an analogy of two drivers in one mini-bus running three red/stop lights at three different sets of cross roads.

At some stage in 2012 there will be an Inquest. Inquests can and do, in this Corporate Manslaughter Era, result in prosecutions. Our friends in Spain are also adept at criminal investigations into aviation accidents (Spanair et al.)

There is much buck-passing going on, as always in these situations. However, the music will be forced to stop in due course, with accountability and some significant rule changes within the EU.

[Sunnyjohn]

Thanks for the link, SWBKCB. What a load of old hokum. Flightline BCN can continue to operate provided they don't use their Metros. Guess where those Metros will appear next - Air Lada, Eurocontinental, Stringbag Airways? Who can say . . . They surely got wind of this because they have just bought an Embraer (see post 1056). Unbelievable - but then Spain can be somewhat unbelievable.

[AirResearcher]

Does anyone know if there is any substance in the rumour that one or both of the Manx2 crew had not had sufficient rest prior to operating the flight, or that they may have been working at some point during the night putting the seats back in after a freight flight?

[BOAC]

No - do you?

[Kirks gusset]

AirResearcher, did you start this " rumour" or is this yet another " rumour" from and unidentified "credible source" ?

[AirResearcher]

This is a valid and serious question, thats why I'm asking....

[BOAC]

This is a valid and serious question too - declare your source?

[Avenger]

"This is a valid and serious question, thats why I'm asking...."

I may also ask what is the source of this information? and this also is a " valid and serious question"

[AirResearcher]

Chaps, this is not about rumour mongering, if no one can provide an answer or if its not true then I will be more than happy, as will all of us. We all know the circumstances between Manx 2 Air Lada and Flightline BCN raise a lot of questions, and this is one of them.

[sickofitall]

I heard more or less the same as AirResearcher yesterday...I was told that it has not yet been ascertained where the crew stayed the night before the accident. Fairly reliable source too.

[jumpseater]

AR
Does anyone know if there is any substance in the rumour

Yes the person who started the 'rumour' will know if its factual or not. Find that individual and you'll have your definitive answer.

http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13067-PRELIMINARY_REPORT_2011_005-0.PDF

[AirResearcher]

Thanks Sickofitall & Jumpseater,

JS-Ive already read the prelim. report, which doesnt conclusively answer the question unfortunately, although it seems to at first glance.

I was actually asked by my 'source' to see if I could find out anything as he/she needed to substantiate it themselves, that's all I am able to say. Sorry if that doesnt answer everyone's concerns, but thats all I have.

[JW411]

"That's all I am able to say"

Well, that statement is absolute b*llsh*t.

You have started a rumour with (so far) absolutely no foundation and when you are questioned, you tell us that "that's all I am able to say".

Why?

Precisely who is trying to stop you from saying more and why?

If this is a matter of confidentiality then why are you posting on pprune? Have you considered contacting the investigating authorities and have you told them that you have something important to say?

Either you know something or you don't. Which is it?

Put up, or Shut up.

[BOAC]

IF there is any substance in this 'rumour' it is anecdotal since the crash was at 0950 on the second sector and the aircraft had been on a night mail flight, so at the time of the crash I would suggest that a 'previous (unofficial) duty' 'putting the seats back in' would have been strictly illegal but probably not relevant in terms of duty time. It would be little different to an airline management pilot doing a days work in the office and then going off meek and mild on a night flight, which we know happens. Likewise where they 'spent the night' may or may not be of interest to the enquiry as would be their 'base' and HOTAC if any, and previous duties/rest. So unless your ?'source'? has different information, it is irrelevant and there are far bigger fish to fry. Perhaps if he/she has, you would be kind enough to pass them on? He/she has, of course, contacted the investigating authority with this information no doubt? It is for them to determine in the course of the investigation whether the crew were sufficiently 'rested' for the duty.

[JW411]

Precisely..............................

[Avenger]

Couldn't agree more BOAC. What sort of twisted mind starts a rumour, claims it comes from a " source" then bails out when put under pressure, it is highly disrespectful to those that suffered loss here and simply a load of nonsense and clap trap that has no place on this forum.

[AirResearcher]

I understand any cynicism, however I will continue to ask serious and valid questions if you are happy for me to continue my work trying to improve the working conditions of commercial aviation workers - crews in particular.

I will not however break any promises of confidentiality, which is the case here.

I am more happy to receive and respond to any professional or light hearted criticism and comments, and I wish I had the time to convince any sceptics - but I dont, so all I can ask do is for you all to have a little faith.

Thanks

[BOAC]

respond to any professional or light hearted criticism and comments - pleased to see that - if you would then - can you confirm that you and your 'source' know enough about the way aviation works to realise that what you have posted so far is probably irrelevant?

PS - and whether this ?valid? 'rumour' HAS been passed to the investigating authority - in the most professional way, of course?

PPS We are more than happy to see you "to continue my work trying to improve the working". What exactly are you doing - tell us your credentials. I see you have commented on Eurostar and Virgin's 'industrial' issues so far. Any professional avaition qualifications to tell us about?

We all DO have faith, but past history has proved that those who burst on the scene with a 'hot rumour' are generally time-wasters and some times malicious.

Edited for taypos

[windytoo]

AirResearcher, I am very pleased that you are trying to improve my working conditions. I would be very grateful if you could post your name and address so that I may know to whom I may send my concerns.

[rhythm method]

I don't know anything about the rest the crew had prior to reporting for duty.

I wonder if AirResearcher is getting mixed up with the fact that the crew were having trouble getting one of the seats to lock into position?

This was seen at BHD, therefore after the initial positioning flight from BFS and thus not interfering with crew rest periods.

Maybe a simple bit of 2+2=5?

[Sunnyjohn]

I've a feeling that this is all a bit of a red herring but as it is known that the previous night sector was a mail flight (I believe it was a Royal Mail charter), does anyone know whether it would have been necessary to remove the seats for this or would there have been sufficient room for the mail in the cargo hold?

[jumpseater]

SJ, these (and similar) types of aircraft are frequently used for overnight mail express courier work. Seats on these types are 'relatively' easy and quick to remove and replace to allow for light/small cargo operations. Sometimes seats are retained and mail bags fixed to seats and strapped in so they can't move. It'll vary dependant on the aircraft/contract/time/packages.

So, it is plausible that an aircraft like this would be configured for cargo operations overnight, and reconfigured for passenger transport during the day within an hour or two. The passenger cabin in effect becomes the cargo hold, some aircraft will also have a belly pack to allow extra cargo/luggage to be carried, though that varies from type to type. From images, this aircraft appears to have been 'standard' configuration in simple terms, with no additional cargo capability, though I stand to be corrected.

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/webimage/irish_crash_171358_1_3342267!image/310864615.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_595/310864615.jpg
On this image you can see the 'cargo' door open at the rear of the aircraft.

[what next]

Hello!

So, it is plausible that an aircraft like this would be configured for cargo operations overnight, and reconfigured for passenger transport during the day within an hour or two.

When I flew the Metroliner a few years back, we avoided this kind of mixed operation. If the conversion is done properly, it takes four people around an hour of nasty work. It is not just the nineteen seats that have to be put onto their rails and secured, but there is the (heavy!) cargo floor that has to be removed first, then the (very very very nasty to handle) fiberglass liners that protect the cabin interior. The carpets have to be reinstalled, around the entrance door this even requires the removal and replacing of several screws. Then all the safety equipment has to be put back into place (life vests, oxygen masks, safety leaflets) and checked. All the seats, carpets and floor panels must be carried across the hangar/apron or loaded/unloaded into a van. Since it is very narrow inside a Metroliner, not too many people can work there at the same time, so there is no way of speeding-up the process by employing more people.
Under commercial JAR/EU-Ops, the whole operation must be supervised and signed by a maintenance operation which makes it quite expensive, because they will charge you for something like two hours for a mechanic every time.

I have assisted in this labor a couple of times when I was off flying duty and I don't think that I would have accepted to fly after crawling back and forward through the aircraft for over an hour and itching everywhere from these awful fiberglass liners.

But for normal mail operation, the Metroliner does not really need to be reconfigured. The cargo hold (right behind that cargo door) is fairly large and usually mail is not so heavy as to cause mass and balance problems. Individual sacks of mail and heavier parcels can be fixed to the passenger seats in front if necessary. There is special gear awailable for that, like sleeves that are put over the seats which hold the sacks in place.

Anyway, I don't think this has anything to to with the accident. An extremely inexperienced crew deliberatley flew three approaches under conditions, for which neither their aeroplane was equipped and approved, nor they themselves were trained and approved. For some reason they lost control the third time. Tiredness/fatigue may have contributed and reconfiguring the aircraft in the middle of the night would certainly be a factor there, but it isn't too difficult to say "no" even if one is very tired.

[Sunnyjohn]

Thanks to both of you - I think you've seen that red herring off.

[Swiss Cheese]

The Irish Department of Transport will be publishing an interim report into this accident tomorrow.

I wonder whether the AAIU will shed further light on why the crew seemingly did the aviation equivalent of running three sets of red traffic lights.

Watch this space.

[VeeAny]

The interim statement can be found at http://www.aaiu.ie/upload/general/13437-INTERIM_STATEMENT_2012_003-0.PDF

[BigFrank]

Thanks for the link.
From last year, however.

I presume that the previous post alluded to a new report; due today 7th Feb 2012

[ohreally]

It was!

AAIU Report No: 2012-003 State File No: IRL00911013 Published 07/02/12
INTERIM STATEMENT
Accident to Fairchild Metro III EC-ITP at Cork Airport on 10 February 2011

[Lurking_SLF]

Can any drivers explain what the torque difference in the engines would do?

Is the stated 5% difference enough to possibly cause control problems? Especially in the given scenario where they are performing a go-around in cloud?

Just trying to understand...

[BigFrank]

I am of course wrong and this is indeed the new, updated, interim report.
Apologies.


I was partly misled by monitoring the Irish media who seem not to have reacted to this update. Or they haven´t noticed it ? Or it says nothing worth commenting on ??????


The details of the engines and its significance are beyond me but the continued confusion re the status of the oversight by the Spanish authorities AESA of the operators, and the status of the airline Manx2, now described as the ticket sellers or similar does not inspire much confidence in me.




And the Spanish authorities don't now seem to have much confidence in the company which provided the aircraft and crew. A bit late for that however ?

[BigFrank]

They state baldly and blandly that the operator was unable to furnish them with the "FDR data frame layout which is required to decode the FDR recording" and that they had to seek this from the relevant US authorities.

Is this unusual ?
Surprising ?
Amazing ?
Worse still ?

[riverrock83]

Beeb summary: BBC News - Cork plane crash report notes engine sensor fault (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16926405)

[riverrock83]

So the question then for the AAIU is:
Was the engine power imbalance big enough to cause the final missed approach / go around to be unstable, resulting in the wing touching the ground (after perhaps an over-correction by PF)?
Was this is what caused the final set of holes to line up?

[Swiss Cheese]

We will have to wait at least another 6 months before the final report. I would imagine that the torque issue/engine imbalance will be allocated a secondary or tertiary factor in this preventable accident. The error chain started much much earlier, and the inescapable issue is that the crew should not have put the aircraft in that place in any event.

[rlsbutler]

Lurker

For want of anyone more current and/or qualified, I suggest the torque difference would tend always to cause the left wing to drop.

The pilot flying will compensate for this with aileron and rudder, provided that he is not so aware of the real situation that he leads with the left engine all the time. The FDR tells us that he was indeed not balancing the engine output on this approach. The pilot flying will have had mildly crossed flying controls throughout the approach.

Pulling the power off, when that seems to leave the right engine still blowing air over the right wing, probably accentuated the tendency for the left wing to drop.

Earlier contributors have told us that the Metroliner was a brute to fly.

For me, the best explanation at present for the left wing drop turning into an unmanageable roll to the right has to include some stage of stall. The interim report mentions a continuous stall warning but does not give the critical values of angle of attack that the FDR might have recorded, nor any late change of elevator angle that might have worsened the situation.

Different aircraft, in or near the stall, might roll left or right with right aileron applied as was probably true here in the last few seconds.

More certainly, coarse right rudder (applied both to counter the excess thrust of the right engine and additionally to raise the left wing) will tend to reduce the effective angle of attack of the left wing and to delay its impending stall. The right wing stalls first and the aircraft rolls to the right - rapidly or even by way of a "flick".

Honest speculation, good enough till we get the FDR traces in the final report.

[hec7or]

I remember the jetstream 31 was a handful at low speed when the rpm was changed due to the different response time of the left and right engines. Quite a lot of aileron input would be needed during changes of thrust. I guess if all your practice go rounds are single engine, then you know which way it will roll, but a 2 engine go round would produce a roll that may not be predictable.

Different aircraft had different characteristics depending on how well they had been set up by the engineers.

[govig]

I'm a bit concerned about the reported retardation of power levers to less than flight idle in flight.

[captplaystation]

I'm sure it didn't help, but I suspect that being absolutely knackered, stressed, and at the end all said and done, not very experienced, probably had more to do with cocking up your 3rd ILLEGAL go-around from below minimas, than a bit of an imbalance in the engines responses.

[Telstar]

probably had more to do with cocking up your 3rd ILLEGAL go-around from below minimas, than a bit of an imbalance in the engines responses.

Amen.

An absolute disgrace, that aircraft should never have been where it was in the first place. I know that the investigators have to be painstakingly thorough but it just seems like investigating marginal differences in power output is such a wasted effort in the context of flagrant and repeated busting of minima.

[aerobat77]

I remember the jetstream 31 was a handful at low speed when the rpm was changed due to the different response time of the left and right engines. Quite a lot of aileron input would be needed during changes of thrust

well, thrust ( power) changes on the tpe331 will not result in any rpm changes on this single shaft engine.

beyond that a small mismatch in torque as well a slightly different response time is everyday business, every aircraft has a small mismatch , even with freshly calibrated engines.

for me it seems that they came to high and tried to reduce using beta inflight, lost control and stalled out . the small response difference when they at last second applied power again is not the reason for the crash in my opinion.

best regards

[flydive1]

An absolute disgrace, that aircraft should never have been where it was in the first place. I know that the investigators have to be painstakingly thorough but it just seems like investigating marginal differences in power output is such a wasted effort in the context of flagrant and repeated busting of minima.

Yes, do not understand why they insist running an investigation when they could just read pprune and find all the answers.

[Cows getting bigger]

I suspect they are covering every possible base (including minor torque differences) because this one may eventually end-up in court.

[BigFrank]

Dublin ?

Belfast ? London ?

Madrid ? Barcelona ? Seville ?

Brussels ?

Douglas ???

[Jwscud]

I note that the report states (from CVR info) that the Captain was handling the thrust levers throughout the final approach - was this the same during the Go Around, giving PF less chance to anticipate changes in the aircraft's handling?

[hec7or]

well, thrust ( power) changes on the tpe331 will not result in any rpm changes on this single shaft engine.

yes, apologies it's nearly 20 years since I last flew TPE331s, but the point I want to make is that the roll to the left which precipitated the loss of control could well have been caused by the faster response of the number two engine and is something I well remember from the J31. I also remember that BAe crashed their demonstrator aircraft in 1992 with the loss of both crew and a small defect was discovered in one of the engines during the investigation.

for me it seems that they came to high and tried to reduce using beta inflight, lost control and stalled out . the small response difference when they at last second applied power again is not the reason for the crash in my opinion.


very relevent if this proves to be true

I note that the report states (from CVR info) that the Captain was handling the thrust levers throughout the final approach - was this the same during the Go Around, giving PF less chance to anticipate changes in the aircraft's handling?

this may have been a big factor

Both crew should have been capable of performing a missed approach from less than 50', it's part of the skills test.

[Leftexit]

"The bellows of the No. 2 engine PT2/TT2 sensor, when examined, was found to be considerably shorter than required by the manufacturer’s specification"

Can anyone explain how this could be the case, do they shorten with age or a maintenance issue?

[silverknapper]

I suspect that the sensor issue/5% tq split will have had very little to do with the accident. Find me any 20+ year old turboprop with perfectly matched engines and I'll be surprised. Indeed from experience on TPE J31s I doubt it would be noticeable. Remember we're talking old machines who have lived a hard life here. Even two matched engines could be confused as being not matched due to trimming for bad rigging in the controls, an airframe which isn't perfectly true etc etc.

My concerns are, as alluded to by some folks above:

1. They shouldn't have been there in the first place. Period.
2. The mention of being below flight idle in the interim report. If they went into beta, which would have dropped them from the sky like a brick, And may well have rolled them, They stood no chance of recovery from their self induced error.
3. The captain operating the power levers whilst the FO flew. Ridiculous. Flies in the face of all good practice. If the FO was struggling the skipper should have been handling, especially in the conditions.

Sadly I feel the whole thing still comes down to gross pilot error. The engine issue is just a red herring, which the authority understandably have to report in their thorough investigation.

[MATELO]

BBC News - Family sue over Sunderland co-pilot's Cork plane crash death (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-16991291)

The family of the co-pilot are to sue FlightlineBCN for "severe trauma"

[silverknapper]

Interesting, and I hope for their sake not too hasty. The final report may well not support them.

[aterpster]

MATELO:
The family of the co-pilot are to sue FlightlineBCN for "severe trauma"

Chutzpah in its common derogatory sense.

[Piltdown Man]

These guys are under pressure to bash out a report ASAP. But instead of releasing a poorly researched, half-arsed affair they are taking their time to get it right. Well done. When it comes out it will be interesting reading.

As for the poor family of Mr Cantle, do they really want to do this? They will have to prove that he was, in effect, blameless. And let's assume he was, I think that might be rather hard to prove. Instead, I think they will leave the court with his reputation trashed. But I do wish them a satisfactory outcome.

[Hansard]

Where, and with which company, did he do his Metroliner Type Rating?

[aterpster]

They will have to prove that he was, in effect, blameless. And let's assume he was, I think that might be rather hard to prove.

No problem. Just overcome the concepts of:

1. Required flight-deck crewmember.

2. CRM

3. Second-in-command.

4. The concept of weather minimums and the regulations against violating them in commercial operations.

You get by those, he gets off as a passenger.

[Livesinafield]

As difficult it is for the family i cannot really see where they are going with this, its effectively the same as someone running some red lights then becoming injured in an accident and wanting compensation

Unless anything comes of the putting a new captain with a fresh FO I doubt they will see much if anything, then comes a counter sue i feel..

[aterpster]

Livesinafield:

Unless anything comes of the putting a new captain with a fresh FO I doubt they will see much if anything, then comes a counter sue i feel..

Folks in a highly emotional state combined with almost no technical knowledge of a complex operation are great fodder for greedy lawyers.

[runway30]

They could be assuming that they will have a stronger case when more comes out about the relationship between the ticket seller, the AOC holder and the aircraft owner.

[mad_jock]

aterpster has it I think.

They want to get at someone because nothing appears to be happening while the investigation is on going.

BCN is carrying on

MANX2 is continuing and expanding although they do seem to be using a British AOC holder more these days.

And the owners and people that empolyed thier son have legged it.

And all they can see is a manky rotting metro sitting in IOM.

The fact is that BCN has a manky fleet of old TP's which arn't worth much and are more than likely leased in through another company to protect the assets . Any sign that they will have to pay anything and they will just go out of buisness. The same directors/owners will start up again a few days later and nothing will have changed.

Personally I think the report is going to become a Tenerife like case study and is going to be used for years to come for CRM courses which ain't going to be pleasant for the family, as I don't expect the outcome of the report to be even slightly neutral about the crew.

The fall out with oversight etc is going to be the main area of interest I think although I feel they might use EASA as an escape "Now that everything is EASA everything has changed"

But as we all know most of our familys don't really have a clue about the job or what legal responsabilitys we take on every time we operate an aircraft. They don't know that our jobs are defined by an act of parliment through the ANO. They don't get that you work for a company but your license also means that you have a duty to refuse to do certain things. Its not the case that if the company tells you to do something it is then there problem if its illegal.

Its all very sad and I do feel for the family. I really do hope someone who does know what they are talking about legally and aviation wise gets hold of them and puts them straight. This case will end in tears there is no two ways about it win or loose.

[runway30]

Immediately after the crash, the family of the co-pilot thought that he was employed by Manx2. They were upset that the 'airline' hadn't been in touch to offer support. The lawyer for the passengers made much of the lack of support from Manx2 for a passenger that had to be repatriated and described Manx2 as the carrier. Yet Manx2 has escaped any blame or being a party to the action. Only the other day a passenger of Manx2 described them to me as the airline that always gets in, whatever the weather. Of course it is a different aircraft operator to the one at Cork but the common factor is the ticket seller, Manx2. Of course I'm not suggesting that any other Manx2 operator has made an illegal approach (inserted by my lawyer).

Quote from Mr. Healy-Pratt at the time of the accident.

Mr. Healy-Pratt made the following statement previously to IOM Today, "They promised support and when asked for support, they promptly backed away and said it wasn't their problem." He also sent us this response:

"The short point is an old one, if something walks, talks and looks like a duck, then it usually is a duck."

"Manx 2 identified the route.
Manx2 leased in an operator and crew to fly the route.
Manx2 started an operations base at Belfast for the route.
Manx2 marketed the route, as a Manx2 route.
Manx2 gave the route a Manx2 flight code (NM).
Manx2 had its name on the nose of the plane.
Manx2 'welcome the passengers on board this Manx2 flight'
Manx2 made profit from the route.
Manx2's ticket terms and conditions are not clear."

"Our view is that in any Court in the US, UK, EU, or Ireland, Manx2 would be held jointly responsible with Flightline BCN."

"We are interested to know what due diligence Manx2 did in using Flightline - to what extent did they know about the October 2001 fatal crash with a Metroliner in Spain and the under-insurance problems. We are also interested to know the extent of the Manx2 operation at Belfast with this flight. We understand Manx2 paid for all fuel for the aircraft."

[mad_jock]

When actually he was more than likely self employed and invoicing every month so that they didn't have to pay any NI etc.

The whole thing is going to be a right mess.

[runway30]

Where did he send the invoice, Barcelona or Hangar 9?

[mad_jock]

I would imagine to neither of them, but its only a guess of mine that he was self employed.

I believe the planes/buisness were owned by the other Captains.

There is the aircraft owner/Captains which provided aircraft, pilots and engineering.

Then there is BCN providing the AOC

And then there is MANX2 selling the tickets.

[BigFrank]

I cannot help but think that the families of all concerned might well find the use of the future tense in this phrase, however understandable it might be, very unfortunate indeed.

But the inter-national, inter-company inter-regulatory buck passing (which is already impressive) will doubtless get still more furious as the time comes for the people responsible for this virtual airline which nonetheless managed to kill real people to stand up and be counted

[mad_jock]

It was definately meant to be future tense.

I don't think we have seen the half of it yet.

ticket seller none EU.

AOC holder spanish.

Aircraft Owners private and legged it.

Crash in a EU country.

4 Civil aviation authorites involved. 5 if you include the FAA for Fairchild and Honeywell.

And then we have a change going on in the middle of everything with a central european agency taking over oversight of aviation. What they are meant to do with a company operating from a Crown Dependency outside the EU will prove to be interesting.

[runway30]

mad jock, the scenario you suggest is:

The Captain has a financial interest in not diverting (presumably couldn't pass all the cost back to the ticket seller)

The First Officer is sitting next to a Captain who is paying his wages and will therefore find it difficult to object to the Captain wanting to make illegal approaches.

Does anyone think that a passenger would have gone anywhere near that aircraft if they knew of the true circumstances? But then the passengers are led to believe that Manx2 are a proper airline and you wouldn't expect an airline to put you into that situation would you?

[Sunnyjohn]

Ladies and gentlemen, you have it in a nutshell. Every organisation involved in this scenario continuues to function with impunity. There are far too many holes in this organisational and governmental swiss cheese for anything to come out of this other than a glorious whitewash. it won't even make national news and will disappear quietly without trace. Not only sad for the families but worrying for the state of European aviation.

[mad_jock]

The Captain on this flight was the only "upgrade" they had.

But!!!

For all of the time he was an FO he had been flying with the Captain and owners.

He might have very well thought it was normal to ignore RVR's and minimums.

The FO will have been line trained by the Captain and owners though as well.

What input the AOC holder had into this training both FO and upgrade I can only imagine. Which is personally where I think the family should focus on. The crew performance on the day won't do thier cause any good what so ever.

O and 99% of pax don't give a toss what the situation is in operating an aircraft. All they care about is that one ticket seller is offering 56 quid and the other one 70 quid.

Try and tell someone not in the industry that a BA ticket although 30 quid more expensive than a going by a LOCO is better value because of interlining and baggage resolution and mutiple hop ticketing V trip ticketing and they will always go for the loco option.

Then of course moan like hell when thier multiple hop falls over and they are stuck with no hotel and a heap of ticket changes to be payed for. If they had payed the 30 quid extra they would have been sent of to a hotel with a 20 quid meal voucher and someone would have dealt with the rest of the changes.

[Ron Herb]

The mismatch between the two engines has rather overshadowed the fact that the captain pulled the power levers well into the ground (beta) range some 8 seconds before impact and about a second before the stall warning was recorded.
Having experienced this (just at the flare) on a demonstration flight of a well-known STOL aircraft, I can verify that the braking effect is, to say the least, dynamic! It did, however, result in a very short landing after falling to the ground.
The effect at altitudes above about 6 feet must be horrific.

[captplaystation]

I didn't remember reading that, so , are we assuming that he saw the lights at the last minute & realised he was high, but decided to "go for it" anyhow, or saw the lights after deciding/initiating a go-around & thought "now or never"

For sure it puts a different complexion on it than a simple mishandled go-around.

[Teevee]

Mad jock wrote;

"O and 99% of pax don't give a toss what the situation is in operating an aircraft. All they care about is that one ticket seller is offering 56 quid and the other one 70 quid."


With all due respect, speaking as SLF that is faeces. We DON'T KNOW what the situation is in operating an aircraft, and we ASSUME that all is as it should be. I seriously think that if there were meaningful 'league tables' regarding airlines (there never will be for any number of reasons) then it WOULD make a difference.) How many people do you think seriously want to risk themselves and their families just to get a cheap flight/holiday? I talk to these people .. they are shocked and surprised at some of the things I've learned on here and pass on. How many SLF will actually KNOW where to go to read ANY accident report let alone the Cork one? How many just assume that an air accident is an air accident,just like a road accident is a road accident? A LOT. But I'll tell you this; even as SLF in the UK which isn't the most dangerous of places, if I take a flight I routinely have a look the airline. Most people don't. It never crosses their minds. Why should it? They don't when they catch a bus or train. And they don't see flying as much different.

[mad_jock]

With all due respect, speaking as SLF that is faeces

With all due respect my job as a professional pilot means that you shouldn't need to be worried about that. Its part an parcel of my license and my personal standards that you shouldn't have to think about it. I am the buffer between the company and you in regards to safety. Apart from the fact I ain't strapping my arse into a unsafe aircraft/doing daft things, the pax get there as a bonus.

And BTW there are 4 films out there that are only allowed to be shown to professional engineers about what happens in a train crash. Its really not pretty.

And the Captain didn't definately pull them into beta. There are heap of issues with these engines with conditioning units off the torque gauges and it all comes off the maint of the aircraft. If they had gone into -9% torque that would have be 100 shp neg torque on one side with 60shp on the other. Although 160%difference is low compared to an engine failure at V1 its still alot of yaw I would expected that to be recorded.

Another technical issue is that the springs in the prop CAN'T bring the props out of beta in flight they just arn't strong enough, be it Dowerty or MaCauley. Its in all the flight manuals for the engines.

From my reading of the report is they started the GA from 100ft AGL (100 below mins) the accident happend after power was applied and they were getting it in both engines.

[Ron Herb]

Flight Idle is at 40 degrees PLA. Recorded angles were in the 30's. Power appears to have been re-applied after the stall warning. The TPE 331 and whoever's prop combination does not employ beta control in flight.
However, I bow to Mad Jock's superior number of posts.

[mad_jock]

Its nount to do with Post numbers.

And to be honest if I have got something wrong please tell me as I will add it to my store of info.

Beta to me is not only a blade angle but it also means that there is a transfer from the fuel controller to the prop pitch controller which then controls the fuel input. The beta tube moves a fair bit and the fuel controller controls the blade pitch and the prop pitch controller maintains the rpm. It produces a very marked decleration, the plane would have dropped like a brick.

The angles were never recorded they were assumed from the fuel flow.

I haven't flow the type but on my type with similar engines if the plane thinks its in the air and you move into beta there is an alarm triggered which you can hear from outside the aircraft. I don't know if the metro has such a warning but you would definately have heard it on the CVR on my type.

also to note

There is no mention of engine RPM in the report it could be that the overspeed gov had reduced the fuel flow.

[BigFrank]

This one at least intrigues me:

"I believe the planes/buisness were owned by the other Captains.

There is the aircraft owner/Captains which provided aircraft, pilots and engineering."

What is the factual basis for these (otherwise speculative and/ or possibly mischievous) assertions ?

[mad_jock]

There was a TV documentry that tried to track them down.

About the end of May.

And also if you want to find anything out ask the fuel bowser man.

[Sunnyjohn]

This one at least intrigues me:

"I believe the planes/buisness were owned by the other Captains.

There is the aircraft owner/Captains which provided aircraft, pilots and engineering."

What is the factual basis for these (otherwise speculative and/ or possibly mischievous) assertions ?

I don't know, Big Frank. Having a particular interest (I live in Valencia) I did a bit of work via the web and managed to track the history of the Spanish companies involved - originally based here in Valencia and then in Barcelona (it's back in the early postings on this thread). I found mention of the owners of the aircraft owning the companies, but not the flight crews.

[mad_jock]

Maybe you could find out from the Spanish CAA if the owners hold ATPL's.

The second Metro is sitting on the apron in the IOM rotting .

From what I can see nobody has taken it out of service (there is a decomissioning work pack needs done before the aircraft is stored) and nobody is running the engines once a week.

Anyway its pretty easy for the investigation team to find out because in theory the AoC holder should have training files on every pilot that flys under their AOC.

[Passenger 389]

Interesting, and I hope for their sake not too hasty. The final report may well not support them.


From the BBC article, it appears the lawsuit was filed just prior to the one year anniversary of the crash. The timing causes me to wonder whether, for legal reasons, the family had to file a lawsuit now as a protective measure just to preserve any claims they might have (and thus could not await the final report).

Statutes of limitation prohibit filing a claim more than a specified period of time after an event. In some jurisdictions, the time allowed is relatively short. The duration varies depending upon such factors as the country (or, as in the United States, the particular state) and the type of claim (e.g., different time limits may apply to claims for negligence, breach of contract, defamation, fraud, and wrongful death).

I don't know the law of Ireland (or other nations whose law potentially might be applicable depending upon the claim asserted). For the moment I'm inclined to give the family the benefit of the doubt regarding their motives until shown otherwise.

Though your point certainly is well taken, as are some of the concerns mentioned by other posters.

[aterpster]

...preserve any claims they might have (and thus could not await the final report).

Could be. Let's hope they and their lawyers have that perspective and, thus, withdraw the lawsuit once the final report is issued.

Somehow I doubt it.

[kroack]

two captains where the boss of the company.

[Sunnyjohn]

Which company - there were at least three involved, possibly two more on the Spanish side?

[kroack]

"Which company - there were at least three involved, possibly two more on the Spanish side?"
AIRLADA was the main company, operated under flightline aoc. Manx 2 is not an airline, just a ticket seller. i hope the truth comes in the future, specially for the familys of the affected people.

[Sunnyjohn]

So are you saying that two Captains were the boss (sic) of Flightline or Air Lada? The crew of the crashed Metroliner at Cork were hired by either Air Lada or Flightline or possibly both but neither were owners of the companies. So exactly who are these mysterious Captains?

[kroack]

the crew was from airlada and the other two captains where the boss of the airlada. i think they made a documentary on the bbc explaining all that.

[BigFrank]

I for one am confused by the posts from kroack both here and in the past.

The last one says:

"the crew was from airlada and the other two captains where the boss of the airlada. i think they made a documentary on the bbc explaining all that."

How many people are mentioned in this post ? Four ?

I do not know the jargon of airlines but I believe the 2 (dead; epd/rip) crew on the plane are known as the Captain and the First Officer.

i) Am I right in thinking that you do not claim that either of these were owners of Air Lada ?

ii) Who then are "the other two captains" to whom you refer ?

iii) You claim that the BBC (Northern Ireland; not shown in GB as I remember) documentary "explain[s] all that."

I saw the documentary on a satellite repeat if I am not mistaken (there is mention of it by myself and others earlier in the thread including a then live online link to see it) but I have no recollection of this clarification of ownership by these two highly mysterious, at least to me, other captains. Quite the opposite.

As I remarked earlier the black hole of ownership was commented upon but to some very considerable extent passed over in that documentary. Legal issues obviously can compromise the ability of any organisation to report.

It would be most helpful if you, kroack, were to expand considerably on your knowledge whether in English or Spanish.

If you want to post in Spanish, machine translations apart, there are plenty of people on here only too willing to translate. Not least myself.

The longer your post, the better. At least in principle.

[mad_jock]

Big frank I don't think any of us can give you the pointers towards the documentation that your looking for.

One of the reasons why the investigation is taking so long is the paper trail is more than likely extremely messy.

And everyone will be arse covering as well.

My info is the same as kroack's but its all come from contacts in the industry.

There is also a heap of other stuff which has rumoured to have gone on that none of us can comment on publically because we don't have any proof.

The report is going to be a humdinger of a report and I wouldn't be suprised if it going to be another year before its out. The technicalities of the accident will be realively simple. The rest of it is going to be extremely interesting with the potential of being extremely embaressing for NAA's.

The other thing as well is that there will be several legal cases as soon as its released which makes things even more complicated.

[Sunnyjohn]

The tangle of companies involved in this sorry saga is at my post 974. Flightline have update their website and if you can bear to fight through the mess of flash player drivel you will find that they currently have three aircraft available. Air Lada have disappeared off the face of the web. Euro Continental Air, who, you may recall, actually owned the aircraft, still appear to have an office in Valencia.

[jbsharpe]

Reminds me of China Airsea and Indocharter... :8

[mad_jock]

Its usual to hold aircraft in a seperate company and lease back to protect the captial asset and for tax purposes.

The BBC went to that office and its some womans house and she hasn't seen them.

Anyway they had two metros, now they have one which hasn't moved or engines turn since the crash.

I think you will find Euro Continental Air and Airlada will eventually turn out to be run by the same people.

[BigFrank]

"I think you will find Euro Continental Air and Airlada will eventually turn out to be run by the same people."

Whereas FlightlineBCN is not ?

[BigFrank]

"Reminds me of China Airsea and Indocharter..."

Am I right in assuming these from the sound of their names will have been registered in Gib ?

IoM ??

Sark ???

¿ Las Malvinas ?

[mad_jock]

FlightlineBCN is a company that will hire out its AOC to anyone that pays it money. In this case Airlada payed them to include the two metros on thier AOC and fly for Manx2

In theory it should then be responsable for all flight operations, crew training, quality assurance, flight safety, safety managment system , aircraft maintence, flight time limitations etc etc.

Its not just the case of taking the money then photocopying the AOC cert and then having nothing to with what the aircraft does day to day or for that matter who is flying it.

And the previous poster is on about a book, Honerable school boy.

?????: The Honourable Schoolboy (http://www.e-reading.org.ua/bookreader.php/88669/Le_Carre_-_The_Honourable_Schoolboy.html)

[jbsharpe]

"Reminds me of China Airsea and Indocharter..."

Am I right in assuming these from the sound of their names will have been registered in Gib ?

IoM ??

Sark ???

¿ Las Malvinas ?

In fact they're fictional constructs in John le Carré's "The Honorable Schoolboy", the sequel to "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy"...

(Apologies for the slight thread drift..)

[kapton]

Has anyone got any information on when the final report about the crash is likely to be completed, and published?

[Swiss Cheese]

I would expect a final report on or before the second anniversary. After that, the Coroners Inquest in Cork will commence, absent any criminal prosecutions into the various corporate entities involved.

[Sunnyjohn]

Still nothing on their website:
Air Accident Investigation UnitFull List of Reports (http://www.aaiu.ie/aviation/aaiu/reportsevent/index.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1280)

[a1anx]

Honourable Schoolboy...?;)

[mad_jock]

is there something funny going on i can't seem to see the new posts?

Posting on it cured it.

[mad_jock]

Nope just hung on the same page but the thread on the forum said some one had posted And last page didn't cure it either.

O well fixed now

[Sunnyjohn]

Yes - did. It didn't appear so I repeated the post and was told I couldn't post because I'd just posted the same post. Eventually my post appeared - see above.

[AOB9]

Update to this thread.

Today's news according to "thejournal.ie"

US lawsuit taken against manufacturers of Cork Airport crash plane (http://www.thejournal.ie/cork-airport-crash-lawsuit-733366-Dec2012/)

[mad_jock]

The report found that there was a flaw with the fuel transmission to this right-hand side engine which could have been giving more power than the left-hand side engine. This means there was a potential for the plane to be unbalanced as it landed.

“The aircraft may well not have ended up inverted on its back had both engines been delivering equal and balanced power,” Healy-Pratt, from specialist aviation lawyers Stewarts Law LLP, said.

“Indeed the power imbalance probably resulted in one wing dropping and hitting the ground first, resulting in the aircraft rolling over.


The rigging is hardly Honeywells fault. Neither is the old engine new engines differences in power spool up.

Honeywell have actually quite a good pilot education program and also engineering thats quite reasonably priced.

It doesn't matter what limits the OEM put in the manuals if the operator doesn't spend the money on the maint your not going to have a pair of well rigged engines.

Rigging the engines takes a day for two engineers and also a test flight. Its normally done as required after some major maint with the control runs or after a heavy check.

[DB6]

If the loonies would just start walking into law firms rather than schools when they are feeling a bit batey with the world, then we might start to see some progress.

[mad_jock]

I don't think I have flown a pair of garretts without them being slightly out on the flight idles or they have slightly different spool up times.

Thats why they give us rudder pedals and a balance ball.

[MaxReheat]

Red herring - all the more reason not to :mad: around below DA - culpable negligence by the crew - next please!

[dixi188]

It's a long time since I worked on TPE331s, but what has spool up time got to do with this? The engines run at 100% RPM except in cruise where it's 97%.
I suspect you mean an un-even increase in power due to throttle stagger or internal FCU issues.

[mad_jock]

Sorry prob the wrong term.

I was using spool up as the amount of time it takes to go from flight idle up to 100% torque or whatever the TOGA power setting is on that airframe.

It does vary between engines.

[rabcnesbitt]

Manx2 is from January going to be called "Citywing" due to management buyout but Noel Hayes will remain as Chairman. I always thought buyouts meant you got rid of the old owners but apparently not in this case.

Funny how they still use the flight numbers of FLM (NM) even after their departure from M2. Now its flown by Van Air and Links Air according to the website. Who will be the extra 2013 AOCs? Van Air are starting up again in Shoreham under with another virtual airline Brighton City Wings doing a Ryanair style to Paris Pointoise i.e. only 22 miles away.

I wonder how the increase in APD for all aircraft over 5700kgs is going to effect pax numbers as it goes from £0 to £13 in April so their fare advantage goes. Altough the IOM Gov will not impose new APD in IOM.

Anyone got a spare Caravan II for BLK-IOM operations?

[Sunnyjohn]

This smells a bit, too. The lawyers won't sue a company with no money, but Honeywell and co are fair game. A question to those of you who have flown this aircraft. If there was a fault, as they are suggesting, wouldn't the crew have noticed this on the first two attempts and compensated accordingly?

[Heathrow Harry]

it's about time this three-card trick with airlines, AOC's and their aircraft was stopped IMHO

[mad_jock]

They have to issue a statement on the status of the investigation every year until the final one is issued.

On that note if any of the affected familys are reading my thoughts will be with you on the day. An update report coming out just before will be like a knife twisting in the wound.

And the pilots familys please don't let the technical side of the pilots actions hang to heavily. Most experenced crews know that they were given way way to much rope to hang themselves with. So technically they will be held at fault but most of us know that they are victims of the operation and managment that employed them.

[kroack]

has any legal action began from affected passengers and familys?

[Sunnyjohn]

Yes. Follow this link:

US lawsuit taken against manufacturers of Cork Airport crash plane (http://www.thejournal.ie/cork-airport-crash-lawsuit-733366-Dec2012/?r_dir_d=1)

[AtomKraft]

These Garrett engines must be the most responsive turboprop engines ever.

The props are direct drive from the engine! There's no 'free' turbine to spool up in the efflux from the gas generator before power is delivered.

The ear-bending racket is another story, but you could never accuse these things of slow response. On approach, the engines are turning at 100% rpm anyway!

On the J41 they delivered almost instantaneous response to power lever movements. Ten times better than the engines fitted to ATPs or -8s for instance.

Still, no point sueing the pilots- even though it was clearly their fault the thing came to greif- as they're dead.

Their attempt to Sue Garrett will come to precisely nothing. As it should.

[Sunnyjohn]

From the lawsuit:
He was referring to an interim report by the Air Accident Investigation Unit (AAIU) which was published last February and identified a problem with the sensor on the right-side engine of the plane.
The report found that there was a flaw with the fuel transmission to this right-hand side engine which could have been giving more power than the left-hand side engine. This means there was a potential for the plane to be unbalanced as it landed.
The crew made three attempts at landing. I am no expert but I would have thought that they would have detected this imbalance on the first attempt and compensated accordingly. This suit IMHO is a blatant attempt at screwing money out of companies who can appear to afford it. Like you, AK, I hope it comes to nought.

[blind pew]

Should sue the aviation authorities who apparently condone questionably legal operations.

[mad_jock]

To true Atom for all there issues manging the things on start up they really are a cracking engine. Use 20% less fuel than the free turbines as well.

There is always a slight inbalance but then again there isn't an airframe after 15 years old that flys straight either.

If you gave a crew a straight airframe and engines perfectly in balance and all the other good stuff the crew would more than likely think there was some thing wrong with it.

[Lurking_SLF]

The Second Report has just been published today:
Fairchild SA 227-BC Metro III, EC-ITP, Cork Airport (http://www.aaiu.ie/node/563)

It's basically a summary, but at least they are looking into "deeper systemic issues"

[Sunnyjohn]

It's actually the second interim statement and the third publication. It is, as you say a summary and it consists of three pages which basically state that the investigation is ongoing and has required further research into the organisations involved together with difficult and time-consuming translations of technical data from Spanish to English.

[kapton]

Does anyone have any predictions on when, or whether we are ever likely to see a final report on the Meroliner crash at Cork Airport? I know a report was published last month, but after more than 2 years it revealed little more than the initial report. The many regulatory authorities involved must be very relieved that a legal case has been initiated which has taken the focus off their lamentable failures in the oversight of the ad-hoc company involved.
I wonder if EASA (and one of its regional offices, the CAA), for all its edicts, regulations, and unfathomable, mind-numbing literature will re-appear in the lawyers' sights once the "difficult process of translation of documents" is complete.
I am only bringing this up as I believe this case brings up so many issues. Such as the exploitation of pilots desperate to pursue aviation as a career. The well and truly elastic requirements for adequate, and well trained maintenance staff to be available, and by that I mean the engineer not having to take a boat, plane, fast train, or space shuttle to sign off the tech log at the end of the flying day. And, generally, the whole illusion that there is a functioning airline when it is just a collection of different elements which exploits the regulating authorities' own regulations without censure.
As has been proved many times before, the lawyers will get to the truth in the end, even if there are a few diversions along the way, so delaying the report will only cause more pain for everyone involved.

[mad_jock]

I mean the engineer not having to take a boat, plane, fast train, or space shuttle to sign off the tech log at the end of the flying day

Why would you need an engineer to sign off the techlog at the end of the day?.

On these type of aircraft its normal for the Captain to sign it in and the aircraft to get a 10 day check by the Engineer. For a while I was authed to do the 10 day checks and carried a calibrated pressure gauge for the tyres.

By whats been reported so far there wasn't anything unusual about the aircraft from a tech point of view.

I suspect the report will be out before the summer or in September.

[kapton]

Mad Jock

I never said there were any technical issues. I said the crash will reveal other issues. The actual incident has been discussed by well-informed, professional people on this forum. Yes, the prime cause wil probably be the operation and handling of the aircraft, but there is also an underlying philosophy, and culture in organisations which find themselves involved in incidents such as happened at Cork.
I am sure you have a deft, feline touch with a tyre pressure gauge, and use your krytonite vision to detect defective strobe lights. I am awed by your devotion to completing the tech log at the end of the day before resting your head on it for the night. Now go and look in the mirror and listen to your reflection tell you how good you are.
Now, back to Cork. I just hope the report, while dealing with the objective causes of this crash, gives the regulatory authorities something to think about before allowing organisations such as involved in this accident to operate.

[Spitoon]

Does anyone have any predictions on when, or whether we are ever likely to see a final report on the Meroliner crash at Cork Airport?
The regulation that covers accident investigation says 'The safety investigation authority shall make public the final report in the shortest possible time and if possible within 12 months of the date of the accident. If the final report cannot be made public within 12 months, the safety investigation authority shall release an interim statement at least at each anniversary of the accident, detailing the progress of the investigation and any safety issues raised'.

Things seem to be progressing according to the rules so it is reasonable to expect that a final report will be published when the investigation is complete. When that will be is down to the people doing the investigation.

The reason that it is taking so long may well be because, as you say '...I believe this case brings up so many issues'. Although you may be right that lawyers will get to the truth in the end, it is unfortunate that in the courts the truth is so often twisted to suit the needs of the lawyers' case at the time - this is not a criticism, that's what they are paid for. What we will hopefully get from the AAIU, and all of the indications so far are that this is where they are headed, is an analysis of the accident based on fact with the intention of preventing future aviation accidents and serious incidents rather than apportioning blame or liability.

What will be interesting when the report is published is how EASA and the rule framework that it has developed will be handled. It is arguable that comprehensive and effective oversight of virtual airlines and their operations has become far more difficult as a result of the Europe-wide regulations 'sponsored' by EASA and the principle of mutual recognition that is embedded within the rules. And, of course, EASA is an appointed observer to the investigation.

[mad_jock]

You have obviously never seen a 10 day checklist for a directshaft TP aircraft.

Or have a clue what the line engineers check and what they need a part 145 hanger for.

Or for that matter know what the training is for getting the QA approval for doing such a check. I suspect I also used to pick up more faults than the Engineers did but thats also because I used to fly the sod for 6 sectors a day.

That fact I was also a Pro Engineer and a plant fitter in a previous life might also have something to do with it. There are pilots who its best not to allow near an aircraft with anything sharper than a biro and can't change the spark plugs on a car, a bit like avionics engineers.

[Tinribs]

The most dangerous thing in aviation is an engineer with a pen

The second most dangerous thing is a pilot with a screwdriver

[mad_jock]

That made me smile Tinribs.

Unfortunatley any pilot flying these old heaps of turboprops will require a screwdriver everyday for oil level inspection, oil filter bypass button inspection hydralic level inspection. Even if they don't actually look at whats inside the panels they still need to open the panels for the "security" check.

[Sunnyjohn]

the lawyers will get to the truth in the end
Well, you have a lot more faith than I, bearing in mind that I do live here (Spain) and know something about false trails, lost evidence, hidden papers, and the rest. Still, as we say here 'Vamos a ver'.

[Piltdown Man]

The words lawyers and truth don't belong in the same paragraph. And the compo scum have got their teeth into the torque imbalance. But there's only one problem with this: Every pilot should be capable of dealing with an engine failure on a go-around (or an over-torque). It won't necessarily be tidy, but it should be safe. So dealing with differing engine accelerations and torque values should be quite straight forward, me thinks!

[Sunnyjohn]

Quite - a point I made in post 1171.

[Loose rivets]

The most dangerous thing in aviation is an engineer with a pen

The second most dangerous thing is a pilot with a screwdriver


Or indeed, as Swiss Army knife.

[Loose rivets]

The most dangerous thing in aviation is an engineer with a pen

The second most dangerous thing is a pilot with a screwdriver


Or indeed, as Swiss Army knife.

Sarcasm aside, I can't resist posting this link. I could not have got into that stub-wing without me knife.

We'd been AOG on that aircraft for 15 hours.



http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/237581-hot-flight-2.html#post2768062

[JWP2010]

An extraordinary documentary on the Manx2 crash just broadcast on TG4, the Irish language station here in Ireland. Not sensational, just telling the stories, including one of a pilot who, for his family, became the seventh victim of this crash.
Simply told and very moving. Whatever the reasons behind the crash, the programme reminded me of the human involvement.
And the same goes for all such occurences.

[Chronus]

Reminiscent of the 1988 C90 G-BNAT crash at EGNX caused by a faulty R/E compressor bleed valve which led to assymetric go around . AAIB report no.9/88 for those interested. Wx was also marginal at the time of this accident. Lots of similarities between this and the current I`d say.

[Elephant and Castle]

Not so sure. This was a perfectly serviceable aircraft

[Chronus]

Elephant & Castle how can you be so sure. So they thought was the C90, until of course that fateful moment when one donk decided it was time to quit. Or perhaps the ladies of fate got fed up with crochet and picked up a piece of Swiss cheese instead.

[Elephant and Castle]

Since I was not there I am not "sure" of anything at all. However the facts that have been presented so far are two approaches below minimums followed by a fatal third. The aircraft appears to have been serviceable until impact. Sadly the lessons to learn here seem to point on the Human Factors direction.

If you have factual information to the contrary please share it.

Even if an engine failed (of which there is no evidence) it should have been manageable. An engine failure at minimums is a handful, at 30 feet in IMC a complete disaster. Surely the point here is that busting the minima repeatedly they did stack the odds against themselves should anything at all go wrong.

[Chronus]

In response to Elephant & Castle`s invitation to share factual information I suggest reference to Ulster Herald`s report of 12 February 2013, at the following web link.

Report into Cork plane crash delayed by Spanish documents (http://ulsterherald.com/2013/02/12/report-into-cork-plane-crash-delayed-by-spanish-documents/)

In particular to the following extract therefrom:

The investigation unit last year revealed problems with engine number two of the twin turboprop Fairchild Metroliner which could have caused an uneven thrust from the wings.

I trust this may sufficent to show that my comments were not mere speculation.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The fact the there may or may not have been an issue with one of the engines does not change the central fact of this accident. The pilots not once, not twice, but three times deliberately chose to continue the approach below minimums.

Cat 1 limits mean that even in the event of an aircraft malfunction you should still have enough room to recover and overshoot. By conducting an illegal below minimums approach they gave away that margin with tragic results.

The take away is clear. Don't continue below DH unless you absolutely have the required visual reference. If your employer has a problem with that you need to find a new job, I did just that early in my career. It was hard at the time but it was one of the best decision I have ever made.

[Sunnyjohn]

The investigation unit last year revealed problems with engine number two of the twin turboprop Fairchild Metroliner which could have caused an uneven thrust from the wings. This was mentioned early in this thread and, although I appreciate that there are now 1200 plus posts, I would humbly suggest that posters read them before posting supposedly new information.

To repeat some of that information, this type of aircraft is known to be tricky at low speeds and in addition it is likely that there was a thrust differential between the engines. It is also likely that the crew knew this. As Big Pistons Forever has stated, this does not change the essential facts of the accident.

The main reason that the final report is delayed is because of the difficulty in dealing with the paper-chase in Spain.

[mad_jock]

in addition it is likely that there was a thrust differential between the engines

Which is common with all aircraft fitted with these engines.

I suspect this is going to go into next year now.

I actually feel quite a bit for the Irish. This must be a huge outlay of man power over the years.

James Healy-Pratt, Partner at Stewarts Law, comments on Cork plane crash lawsuit (http://www.stewartslaw.com/James-Healy-Pratt-Partner-at-Stewarts-Law-comments-on-Cork-plane-crash-lawsuit.aspx)

I don't know if this has been on the thread before.

[Cyrano]

Cork plane crash report due within days (http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/cork-plane-crash-report-due-in-days-256614.html)

[Swiss Cheese]

The AAIU full accident report will be published today at 1100 hrs. It is a comprehensive 240 pages in length, and a worthwhile read on a variety of operational factors. I suspect it will can be downloaded direct from the AAIU website today.

[wheelbarrow]

We await with impatience to read your forthcoming comments!!:cool:

[lfc84]

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/report-attachments/REPORT%202014-001.pdf

http://www.aaiu.ie/sites/default/files/attachments/Final%20PRESS%20RELEASE%202014-001_0.pdf

[Jack1985]

Pilots had improper training.
Reverse thrust activated whilst airborne.
Both pilots fatigued.
Spanish regulator contributed to crash through inadequate oversight - AESA was "unaware" Flightline BCN operated in Ireland.
The relationship between All 3 companies (Manx2, Flightline BCN, Air Lada) was inappropriate and breached existing laws.
All 3 attempts breached weather minimums and improper planning into the expected weather conditions at Cork by the pilots
Legal teams on behalf of bereaved family's expected to "act" on findings.

[F14]

How terribly sad, I remember reading reports like this 25 years ago. I would hope prosecutions would be forthcoming.

[deptrai]

"The european commission should review the obligation of member states to implement penalties, as a result of transgressions, including flight time limitations"

"Easa should ensure a comprehensive syllabus for appointment to commander and that appropriate command training and checking is carried out"

Etc. Some very clear recommendations. I wonder how the Spanish authorities will react.

The conclusions, findings, causes and recommendations are thought provoking to read. Lots of issues uncovered there. Very sobering. Makes me wonder if this was some unscrupulous banana republic outfit, or europe in 2011. Sad indeed.

[CaptainProp]

Pages 150-154, "Conclusions", really paints a dark picture of this operation. It also shows that the Spanish authorities are not, or at least were not, doing their job....

As F14 already said, how sad to see that these type of operations are still around and that there are still untrained and not properly qualified crew out there operating commercial flights.....

[noblue]



"No evidence was found of the effective employment of Crew Resource Management principles"
:(

[Monde]

Disgraceful , but totally expected and an excellent report by the AAIU .

[blind pew]

Good report but same cr@p as in the 70s.
Until EVERYONE has anonymous occurance reporting, full circulation of incidents, proper overseeing of all commercial operations by all relevant authorities and approach bans this will continue.
Terribly Sad.

[kapton]

As stated above, an excellent report by the AAIU. The whole Manx2 setup from the very start was an absolute shambles. As an outsider looking in on the company, I wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole. Where do the lawyers start? Every facet of this company, or collection of companies was at fault. You only have to look at the history of Manx2 to see something was wrong. Aircraft toppling onto one wing when taxying in high winds, supposed tyre burst which led to an aircraft undergoing extensive maintenance in Germany, and an aircraft trying to perfect one main undercarriage landings. Yet where were the responsible regulatory authorities? Hiding behind the Byzantine organisation called EASA. I defy anyone concerned with aviation not to sit agape when reading pages 150 onwards.

[Dan Winterland]

A long list of errors which just shouldn't happen in this day and age. Hopefully lessons will be learnt - and enforced!


The AAIU should be commended for a very thorough and comprehensive report. They had their work cut out with this one!

[deptrai]

Spicejetter,

"Citywing (a trading name of Citywing Aviation Services Limited) is an Isle of Man-based company that sells seats on scheduled air flights operated under charter from UK and EU-registered airlines Van Air Europe and Links Air."

Sounds like a very similar setup to me. As for the ownership structure change, it was apparently a management buyout. Meaning the same people who managed the company at the time of the accident are now still in charge.

Could be old wine in new bottles. I am not a lawyer but seeing these ownership changes also makes me wonder if someone is trying to evade possible liability claims here.

Personally I will think twice before ever buying a ticket from them, should I need to travel where they fly, and most probably try to avoid them.

Edit: after skimming through this whole thread, it seems to me there were some very well informed posts here, foreshadowing much of the findings and conclusions. Very scary that this kind of operation had been allowed to continue for too long.

[rabcnesbitt]

The management structure has not changed that much as far as I am aware Noel Hayes still has the same large majority shareholding in the new company as he did in the old.

I remember a quote from Wellington in the Sharpe series when the regiment lost the Kings Colours:- "Change the name remove the shame"

The pilots should not take all the blame the flight ops manager should not have allowed it to leave. If he had ordered a stand down for an hour they would probably all be alive now. Same as putting them both together and why did the other co-pilot have to go to BCN for an English proficiency test surely he could have done it in Belfast.

[deptrai]

The pilots should not take all the blame

the report makes it very clear that there are systemic issues behind.

[Jack1985]

Can Manx2 (now Citywing) still be pursued now that they don't exist under the purchased name? Haven't heard them give any reaction today either along with both the AESA and EASA.

Certainly an excellent report by the AAIU and they are to be absolutely commended for it. Just hope all 11 recommendations are acted upon.

[lfc84]

Spanish regulator had inadequate oversight on company that operated fatal Manx2 flight - Isle of Man Today (http://www.iomtoday.co.im/news/isle-of-man-news/spanish-regulator-had-inadequate-oversight-on-company-that-operated-fatal-manx2-flight-1-6401872)

quote:

Manx2.com is now in liquidation.

Most of its operations have since been taken over by CityWing.

A statement from Manx2.com reads: ‘We welcome the final report published today by the Air Accident Investigation Unit of the Irish Department of Transport (AAIU) which conducted a full and very detailed investigation into the crash in February 2011 of flight NM 7100 from Belfast to Cork, which was operated by Flightline BCN.

‘The devastating impact of the tragic accident at Cork three years ago is not something that the passing of time has diminished and the thoughts and sympathies of all those involved are first and foremost with the families of those who lost their lives and those who were injured.

‘Manx2 ceased trading in December 2012 but the former directors and employees of Manx2 continued to give the AAIB and the AAIU their fullest co-operation throughout the three years of the investigation to ensure that the full facts could be determined and any lessons learned to improve future air safety.

‘Manx2 contracted all the flying to EU airlines licensed and required, as was the operator [Flightline BCN], to operate in compliance with the stringent standards and controls of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA), recognised to be among the most stringent in the world, under the oversight of their national aviation safety authorities.

‘Unfortunately, the report is clear that the prime causes of the accident were decisions made by the Flightline crew in adverse weather conditions, compounded by inappropriate crew rostering by the operator and a significant lack of oversight by the Spanish air safety authority.’

[Jack1985]

Manx2 is in liquidation they think that will cut it? They bought it out transferred the assets and shut it down to get rid of the Cork accident and any liability!

Typical spin, ''we hope to improve air safety'' ... but forgot to mention we contributed to this accident through improper practices which are clarified in the report by the AAIU, which we will continue to praise. :ugh:

Hope Citywing go down the tube before it gets messy, carriers like them are what's wrong with this industry along with Air Lada and Flightline - I'd like to point out I'm not seeking to hurt any staff in any of those company's - It's the management I'm laying this with.

The accident basically was a direct consequence of fatigue, something that was caused by these 3 companies. There's your connection Citywing.

The AAIU found Manx2 didn't really communicate with Flightline so how are they responsible for inappropriate rostering according to your constant changing schedule Citywing,

‘Unfortunately, the report is clear that the prime causes of the accident were decisions made by the Flightline crew in adverse weather conditions, compounded by inappropriate crew rostering by the operator and a significant lack of oversight by the Spanish air safety authority.’

The fact those pilots also shouldn't have been removing seats and weren't qualified to do so (even though there is no connection with the accident and that) shows how quick Manx2 were to flout regulations where they liked, they put those pilots up in a house in Belfast and gave them a car to use, something they weren't seeing enough of because they were not getting adequate rest.

They share responsibility.

[PENKO]

Any idea why reverse was selected, or why the thrust levers (or whatever they're called in a TP) were retarded by the PNF without the runway in sight?

[Jack1985]

The PF (co-pilot) acknowledged the fact that the PNF (commander) took control of the thrust levers in the final approach. The PNF retarded the thrust levers briefly, only the No.1 engine went into reverse (-9% torque) the No.2 engine stayed at 0% (idle) due to the both trust levers being out of asymmetry, this was coincident with the plane rolling left which the AAIU believes prompted the PF to input the flight controls to the right, subsequently the application of power to commence the G/A at 100ft coincided with the commencement of a rapid roll to the right and loss of control and the subsequent crash.

[PENKO]

Yeah, but why? Care to speculate?

[fa2fi]

First of all my thoughts are with those involved in this awful accident.

Secondly, I think it's disgusting how Manx2 can just close up and continue as a new company. Exactly the same but with a different name. I know it's not that simple in a legal sense but that's what I see has happened here.

My local news just said "manx2 shut down without ever apologising for the accident". There was no mention that actually the set up is still there and they operate several flights a week from our local airport.

Nothing has changed in the structure of the company, and this could happen again.

But that's business. Do your worst, shut up shop and come back under a new name ready to strike again. It's the travelling public who I worry about. Fair enough the current suppliers to Citywing seem to be well proven, but there's nothing to stop them hiring in some two bob tin pot operation and the public will be none the wiser.

[NigelOnDraft]

Any idea why reverse was selected, or why the thrust levers (or whatever they're called in a TP) were retarded by the PNF without the runway in sight? Yeah, but why? Care to speculate? In the report (but hardly conclusive)...

[ironbutt57]

Didn't read all of it yet, but the flight idle stop on the Metro was at best flimsy, and if worn, the levers could be moved inadvertently below the flight idle position without lifting the triggers...a low flight idle fuel flow could also cause negative torque situation with power levers at the flight idle position...it has been the cause of more than one Metro/Merlin accident

[Una Due Tfc]

Let's not forget the English gentleman who was a Captain on this route before quitting, and subsequently took his own life because he felt he could have prevented this accident if he had stayed with these B*****ds or the Atcos and members of the emergency services who needed extensive counselling.

They just have a management buy out and change the name to run from the safety circus they created, the litigation and bad press

[NigelOnDraft]

Secondly, I think it's disgusting how Manx2 can just close up and continue as a new company. Exactly the same but with a different name. I know it's not that simple in a legal sense but that's what I see has happened here.
...
But that's business. Do your worst, shut up shop and come back under a new name ready to strike again. It's the travelling public who I worry about. Fair enough the current suppliers to Citywing seem to be well proven, but there's nothing to stop them hiring in some two bob tin pot operation and the public will be none the wiser.Sorry but I disagree...

This mode of operation might be distasteful to some, but as the report and subsequent to the accident shows, is perfectly legal. The CAA picked up Manx2 on some minor website breaches which they corrected, and the CAA continued oversight with seemingly no concern.

EASA and the Spanish CAA bear the responsibility for the "two bob tin pot operation" not being open to UK / Irish scrutiny. It's what our politicians have signed up to... and at heart that is where the basic cause lies, and I doubt will be changed.

In summary, what do you find Manx2 have done either illegally, or even just immorally?

[Hangar6]

Well I think that this virtual airline is a problem for us all,
Now they have a Czech airline based in IOM flying domestic uk routes ,
I hope that van air are being overseen by their state authority but I wouldn't bet on it , manx2 or city wing, just bad news for aviation.

[pppdrive]

Jack 1985 states - The fact those pilots also shouldn't have been removing seats and weren't qualified to do so (even though there is no connection with the accident and that) shows how quick Manx2 were to flout regulations where they liked, they put those pilots up in a house in Belfast and gave them a car to use, something they weren't seeing enough of because they were not getting adequate rest.

Please explain what your statement has to with Manx2. The pilots were not employed by Manx2 and the aircraft was not anything to do with Manx2 whilst operating the Post Office flights that required the seats to be removed. The owner of the aircraft made the arrangements for the Post Office flights, not Manx2. The operator of the aircraft was responsible for the Crew rostering and adherance to flight time limits, not Manx 2.

So exactly what regulations were Manx2 quick to flout?

And before you ask, no I have nothing to do with Manx2/Citywing apart from being a regular passenger to/from the Isle of Man on the services they sell tickets on.

[Jack1985]

Please explain what your statement has to with Manx2. The pilots were not employed by Manx2 and the aircraft was not anything to do with Manx2 whilst operating the Post Office flights that required the seats to be removed. The owner of the aircraft made the arrangements for the Post Office flights, not Manx2. The operator of the aircraft was responsible for the Crew rostering and adherance to flight time limits, not Manx 2.

Air Lada - Owner.
Flightline - Operator (Sub-lessor and AOC holder).
Manx2 - Ticket seller.

Flightline confirmed it had no contact with Manx2. Some of Flightline's operational responsibilities were being inappropriately exercised by Air Lada and Manx2.com - The report confirmed this.

The CAA clapped them round the ears for acting like an airline when they were not, dressing Air Lada pilots up in Manx2 uniforms again trying to be like an airline.

In the weeks prior to the crash a third flight on peak days had been added on the BHD-ORK-BHD route.

Flightline who were the AOC holder provided charts, flight briefing facility's and rosters. Again they had no contact with Manx2.

Air Lada must have been the company who had agreed to the postal charter. That wasn't clarified in the report.

Beg's the question who was messing with the rosters when the third weekly flight was added? Air Lada? They couldn't they simply owned the aircraft and paid the pilots. Flightline were being used for there facilities and AOC. Manx2 (Citywing) is the real root of the problem in my opinion.

[fa2fi]

I think it's highly immoral that Manx2 was replaced by Citywing. Those running it most likely knew they would not be portrayed in a good light and shut down before any compensation would have to be paid by them. My objection was not based on the legality of the operation, just the immoral business practices they used. What if they kill a J32 full tomorrow? Just shut up and come back as Citymanx? Manx3? Meanwhile everyone comes out smelling of roses.

Whe I buy a plane ticket I do so in te knowledge that here is a responsible person who risks jail if things go wrong on their watch an they are found to w at fault. When I book (and I NEVER would) with Manx2/Citywing, exactly who is the responsible person/post holder? Who's responsible and who is accountable?

[Jack1985]

Who's responsible and who is accountable?

Exactly. The AAIU share you concern in safety recommendation 6.

[NigelOnDraft]

When I book (and I NEVER would) with Manx2/Citywing, exactly who is the responsible person/post holder? Who's responsible and who is accountable? The AOC Holder, and you as passenger must be made aware who that is.

Manx2 / your travel agent etc. are just ticket sellers, and only regulated financially. There is no point getting angry at a small company just selling tickets (legally) - the law permits it.

If you believe the concept is immoral / open to abuse / misleading to the public (and I would not disagree) then the line of attack should be to the politicians / regulators who create and permit the framework.

[pppdrive]

Sorry Jack 1985 but I don't recall the report stating that "Some of Flightline's operational responsibilities were being inappropriately exercised by Air Lada and Manx2.com - The report confirmed this." I'm certainly not going to go through all 170 odd pages just to find that particular sentance, but to my memory Air Lada (the aircraft owner) were castigated several times but Manx2 were only advised that their advertising led to the general public believing they were an actual airline. This has been corrected as advised a few posts back.

I get that some people don't like the Manx2/Citywing way of doing business but it's certainly not a new idea. in the late 90s (after my aviation career finished), I drove a coach for a well known National UK Coach Operator. The coach was in their livery, I was in their uniform but I wasn't employed by them and wasn't paid by them. I was paid and employed by the owner of the coach and was contracted with the coach to operate the services for the National UK Company. At that time, the National Company only had 1 coach and all of the other coaches were contracted to operate the services for them. That is no different to Manx2/Citywing getting a fully licensed Aircraft Operator to operate flights using the Manx2 name and in Manx2 livery and wearing Manx2 uniforms. It's all been done before.

[Una Due Tfc]

The report states that some of the responsibilities of the AOC holder were inappropriately exercised by the ticket agent

[Jack1985]

I'm not going through another 240 pages again looking for the line but RTE have it here;

The report said the flight captain was inadequately trained in the command role and was ill-prepared for the situation he found himself in on the day of the accident. The co-pilot's training was not completed.

Some of Flightline's operational responsibilities were being inappropriately exercised by Air Lada and Manx2.com

Spanish regulator 'contributed to Cork crash' - RTÉ News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0128/500565-cork-airport/)

[Irish Steve]

That made for a thought provoking scan, and it's now clear that there were previously unreported subtle but significant defects with the engine that contributed to the crash, along with a whole litany of errors, bad supervision, and many other issues that were not adequately addressed by the regulatory environment.

I will be reading it in depth at a later occasion, but not tonight.

The number of failings at all levels is scaring, and not what is expected by the customers, or the regulators, or by anyone who has any care or interest in aviation.

Some of the supposedly more bizarre suggestions I made at the time, and got seriously attacked for have also been implied if not confirmed.

They were not prepared for diversions as they were supposed to have been, and did not have full information required to perform the flight. At the most critical point of the final fatal approach, the PF was not in full control of the aircraft, as the PNF was manipulating the power.

I've not seen so many "failings" or similar qualifications on a report on a European accident in a very long time, and when I look at what the AAIU had to contend with in terms of lack of information, or even worse, wrong information, they are to be commended on producing a very detailed and accurate finding in respect of an accident that should have serious consequences for a lot of people, at the operational and regulatory levels,

This report has exposed some fundamental flaws in the regulatory environment that may come as a shock to many people, aviation is supposedly one of the most highly regulated activities on the planet, alongside things like Atomic Power stations, and it is clear from this report that the system has failed in a dramatic manner, and will have to be looked at very closely in order to ensure that another accident of this nature does not happen.

[pppdrive]

Thanks Jack 1985 and I freely admit that i hadn't noticed that. It still doesn't explain why the aircraft operator (Flightline) allowed that to happen and what exactly were these responsibilities that Manx2 excersised. I can only imagine that it was something that was 'advised' due to commercial requirements. It certainly could not have beed insisted upon as the Crew/Operator/Owner would have a legal responsibility to say "No, we can't do that." I understand that the owner of the aircraft had representation within the Manx2 office, so is anyone suggesting that Manx2 insisted that they should do something known to be illegal?

I can only add that even though I live only 15 minutes from Bristol Airport, I choose to drive over an hour to Gloucester Airport for my flights to the IoM. After almost 40 years working around the world for various airlines I deliberately chose the services provided through Manx2 even though a well known British Airline operated flights from Bristol to the IoM. It wasn't for financial reasons either, just that I would not fly with that other Airline again after closely watching how they operated.

I do appreciate that people didn't like the way that Manx2 portrayed themselves as an Airline (without actually stating that) but that was changed quite a while ago and their advertising now clearly states the Airline that you will be flying on if buying a ticket through Manx2.

[kapton]

pppdrive
You were fortunate in that you were flying with the Vanair part of the operation, who had the necessary back-up in place from the start. The other components of the setup was a complete shambles. There are people within Manx2/Citywing who knew exactly what was going on with the German and Spanish parts of the operation. They knew crews were not being paid, and that there was insufficient technical back-up for the operation. The people who ran Manx2 cannot claim ignorance of what was happening, as it was going on right in front of them. As you say, some people are miffed that Manx2 marketed themselves as an airline. When they were getting lots of favourable headlines, or posing with leaders of The IOM they did nothing to dispel the assumption. Whether legally correct or not, there are people connected with the operation who should bow their heads in shame. The undue haste with which they changed their name, and distanced themselves from the accident, when people had died under the Manx2 logo is both disgusting and immoral. You say you drive over an hour to get on a LET410 rather than travel on a Q400. Well all I can say is that I want a pint of the medication you are taking.

[pppdrive]

Kapton - You'd better take two bottles as when I started flying with them it wasn't the Let410 but the Dornier 228 of FLM and I had no problem flying on that or with FLM either.

As for the choice of Let410 over the Q400, the choice is not made on aircraft type but of the operating carrier. One I'm more than happy to fly with, the other there's no way I'd get on their flights. That's not listening to other people, just decision made on what I have seen. I'll not mention specifics but no problem with either aircraft, I've done many flights on Q400 in both Australia and New Zealand and also worked in Oz for a Q400 operator.

[kapton]

pppdrive

Believe me I will gladly drink 2 bottles, because you do not realise how fortunate you were. If you had known how Manx2 was setup and run you would not be so philosophical. By the way, what happened to FLM?

[His dudeness]

Some of Flightline's operational responsibilities were being inappropriately exercised by Air Lada and Manx2.com

I don´t sse how Air Lada or Manx2 should or could exercise operational responsibilities ...

Think of it as a charter: you as a client call a broker (Manx2), he charters an airplane from the operator (Flightline) who in turn has an airplane from Air Lada on his AOC... this is done fairly often I think. (and if the operator does operate within his legal duty then nothing is wrong - but how should the client oversee that ?)

As Irish Steve has mentioned nuclear power stations.... if you listen to people like Arnie Gunderson of fairewinds.com, then you´ll find that there is quite a lot to be desired too. And for risk/responsibility: most nuclear power stations are a ltd company and if one blows up, it goes into bankruptcy and the one next to it can continue to make money for the same owner, who is not responsible - legally - for anything.

The regulators are in bed with the industry and/or washouts that don´t know shi....

Kapton, I know one of the DO228 drivers personally - I would not let him drive me to the airport, let alone fly me some place....

[pppdrive]

kapton - as far as I am aware, FLM had some financial difficulties and eventually lost their AOC. I am happy to be corrected though if anyone else knows exactly why they suddenly were no more.

As for they way things were, I based my decisions on the operating carrier and at that stage had no problem with FLM. I found their crews to be efficient, the aircraft quite reasonable and the service up to expectations. I had (and still do not have) any inside knowledge of how Manx2 themselves performed within their back offices but from a passenger view they and their contracted staff performed above expectations.

[darkbarly]

Having read , like others, enough of these reports, the AAIU can only record the facts. However it still strobes out at you...Its obvious;

Why would an individual with any scruples or credibility wish to enter into an arrangement without a contract. Particularly one with such onerous safety standards and their associated costs. See page 70. Then, post event, approach the owner to tie up this loose end. No contract, no accountability please.

One could allege that the AAIU are also unable to state that by any other name Manx2 wished to trade as a virtual airline. Based on the facts revealed by the investigator; clearly the worst kind, exploiting loop holes and grey areas to line pockets.

The big wheels of Commercial Air Transport grind slowly towards minimising accidents and no individual, team, organisation, system or barrier can be expected to perform flawlessly. However, Weeds like this ticket seller need to be stamped on quickly.

So, would the former post holders responsible please shuffle away from the aviation arena, own up to your culpability, and let the rest of those professional and upstanding custodians of Air Safety get on and try to improve this dynamic and complex activity.

[Hansol]

As a similar virtual airline arrangement still exists on the IOM, with similar risks, i think its time for the UK CAA and the Manx government to step up to ensure these ticket selling arrangements don't continue to muddy the waters, and that airlines purporting to be UK carriers are given the proper oversight by the authorities.

[perceval]

hangar6 : some of Manx2 and subsequently CityWings flights have been operated by Van Air Europe's Let 410s for many years now . VAA is a safe and well regulated company which has never had an accident or serious incident . The Czech Authorities are doing their job and the Van Air pilots are always well trained and competent . Your slur towards ' an operator from Czech republic' is uninformed and totally biaised . Coming from Ireland , you should think about looking in your own backyard before making bizarre assumption about others ....

[ironbutt57]

Their low time is apparent..in 4K plus hours on those things, I never remember needing to select idle above touchdown..and we were well warned of dire consequences which is what these poor chaps did indeed encounter

[Yancey Slide]

I haven't come across a situation in commercial passenger operations in turboprops (single shaft and free turbines) where you would select ground idle prior to touch down.
Just curious, is there no squat switch interlock to help prevent this, or is it just a detent in the quadrant?

[Fostex]

Reminds me of this,

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/489723-throttle-lever-error-nearly-destroyed-dash-8s-engines.html

Beta accidentally selected in flight

[neilki]

There's a trigger that pulls a guard up from the quadrant. it's not unlike selecting Reverse in a 'jet'
The metal on the quadrant is fairly soft and does wear some, making the selection of beta less 'impossible' with aircraft age. Under duress it's certainly feasible the Captain (per the report) inadvertently selected a little Beta.
I read the report. It's very sad indeed..

[Big Pistons Forever]

The bottom line is this accident was not caused by differential power, it was caused by the crew electing to continue to repeatedly fly an approach when the the conditions were not suitable and critically to fly below approach minimums without the required visual references.

There were many contributing factors here but IMO the lesson to be learned for those pilots doing the hard flying in crappy little T-Props for Sh*yte operators is; "you have to keep your safety margins intact". You will likely face almost irresistible pressure to cut corners, but it is up to you to resist those pressures. This accident is, sadly, one more in a long, long list of avoidable tragedies.

The smartest move I ever made in my whole flying career was to walk away from a terrible operator. Not too long after I left they were shut down by the authorities after a fatal crash of a Metro in bad weather.........

[justanotherflyer]

@perceval

hangar6 : some of Manx2 and subsequently CityWings flights have been operated by Van Air Europe's Let 410s for many years now . VAA is a safe and well regulated company which has never had an accident or serious incident . The Czech Authorities are doing their job and the Van Air pilots are always well trained and competent . Your slur towards ' an operator from Czech republic' is uninformed and totally biaised . Coming from Ireland , you should think about looking in your own backyard before making bizarre assumption about others ....

It's a pity that the useful observations in the first half of your post are diminished by your making exactly the same kind of slur you bemoan in hangar6's contribution!

[Piltdown Man]

If nothing else, this unpleasant incident shows that Europe, and by that I include grasping little islands and enclaves full of interbreds like IOM, Jersey, Lichtenstein, etc. has to have an update in corporate and criminal law. All directors and anyone controlling airlines should be personally liable to criminal prosecution. It should made impossible for anyone to escape from criminal prosecution by hiding behind a corporate persona. If that is not possible, you shouldn't be able to run an airline (or come to that, any form of transport or undertaking involving the public). Insults like sloping shoulders, a quick winding up and rapid corporate relaunch (so it looks like a mere name change) must become things of the past. If our little tax avoiding friends don't want to play, cut them off. They need us, we certainly don't need them.

[Lonewolf_50]

Why can't the EU, and various related organizations, have persons with your common sense on staff?

Well said, sir!

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

From page 151:

49. Some of the operational responsibilities of the Operator as AOC holder including operational control were being inappropriately exercised by the Owner and Ticket Seller

There you have it. Manx2 were playing airline. The two Spanish companies were just a means to an end. Manx 2 knew exactly what was going on.

Just think how did a young British low hours pilot get recruited by a Spanish company? That just happen to operate in the UK? How did the Spanish operator (who allegedly had no contact with Manx 2) come to pick up night freight charters? How did they come to get sub-charters for other pax ops? The IOM based company is the common link here.

Tragic that people lives were lost. Including the poor guys up front. Infuriating that those behind it are soldiering on with a new brand and will not carry any of the responsibility, just blaming it on the crew, the Spanish, and a company in liquidation.

[Sunnyjohn]

What a tangled web. No wonder it took three years to produce the report.
The bottom line is this accident was not caused by differential power, it was caused by the crew electing to continue to repeatedly fly an approach when the the conditions were not suitable and critically to fly below approach minimums without the required visual references. If you read the report thoroughly, you will find that it was indeed caused by differential power, due to a fault in the sensing system for the engine power which was not picked up during maintenance because the full test was not carried out. When the thrust levers were moved back past the gate, the fault produced a negative torque in one engine which caused the aircraft to bank sharply 40 degrees to the left. The PF then attempted to correct this by pushing the levers forward and then overcorrected to the right. You are correct in that the aircraft was far too low at the point and so the roll to the right caused the right wingtip to impact with the ground. However, the actual cause was the differential in power between the two engines.

[Bang Or West]

Sunnyjohn - you are wrong. The power/engines/torque issue was the last link in the error chain. Two "professionals" bust the approach ban 3 times, went below minima 3 times, and might have got away with it if they hadn't botched the last go-around. The accident was ultimately caused by the captain doing the work of two men, those two men being Laurel & Hardy.

[Sunnyjohn]

might have got away with it if they hadn't botched the last go-around. True - but they would have got away with it if, when the PF pushed the throttles past the gate and then pushed them forward again, the aircraft would have climbed for the go-around instead of banking to the left. The reason it didn't was because of the differential power fault (sorry to keep banging on, but read the report thoroughly). The crew were indeed tired because they left late because they were fixing seats - a job they were not trained to do and which should have been done by the night crew who had flown the Royal Mail charter on the previous flight. They were not trained because the company who employed them did not train them. And so it goes on. The ultimate fault lies, I'm afraid, with the EU legislation which allowed, and still allows, this sort of tangled web to happen.

[Bang Or West]

Sunnyjohn - again you are incorrect. The crew were tired because, as reported on pages 113 and 115 of the report, they had both reported for duty with 1 hour 10 minutes less than the minimum legal rest following their previous duties. That has got stuff all to do with putting seats back into the plane, and rather more to do with the sort of disregard for rules which might, for example, lead to a belief that "the approach ban doesn't apply to us" or "these minima figures don't apply to us".