Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or....

[Keg]

Perhaps the next meeting needs to include the J* Chief Pilot in it's 'no confidence' motion.

[The The]

Anyone heard from the AFAP on the matter? Bueller? Bueller?

Oh dear, another lost chance for a united front for the benefit of ALL Australian pilots!

[Normasars]

AoA,

I do not disagree with what Joe said; what he said is what we all know. HOWEVER, the way in which he did it left him with no where to go. You know that and I know that. Once again it is in the FAM in black and white. How much more explicit does it need to be? AIPA didn't sanction the statement. Joe did this off his own bat, and that is the issue the Co has. And stop with your condescending monotone. I know very well that this is being pursued VIGOUROUSLY by AIPA, and I do not need to be reminded by you.

ps have a beer on me too Joe

[Sarcs]

Last time I noticed we still live in a democracy?! One of the wonderful things about a democracy is the freedom of speach, so Joe exercised his freedom of speach as the union rep for Jet* pilots. He was in an enviable position to speak his mind (and conscience) on behalf of all Jet* pilots and (may I say) on behalf of all Ozzie pilots!

Now the company is exercising its right to crucify him under what is no more than a 'gag' agreement, because all their worried about is their 'bottom line'! This clause is administered by nearly all reasonable sized Aviation companies but yet is contrary to what is our legal right in living in a democracy.

John Howard was recently quoted in ABC's Q&A program when David Hicks asked a question via recorded webcam that is a 'wonderful thing that we live in a democracy where this sort of thing can happen' (not quoted exactly but you get the point). So why is it being questioned in Joe's case that he has exercised his right to the freedom of speach?

I believe that this, along with the current senate inquiry, is a watershed moment in Australian Aviation. If you need any more convincing than Joe's fight then you only need read Mr Urquhart's submission Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety including consideration of the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010: Submissions Received (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/pilots_2010/submissions.htm) in the Senate Inquiry to see where Australian Aviation is heading!

I wish I could contribute to Joe's cause but I am fighting my own battles with another Aviation company that is a fair bit of a struggle financially! So Joe fight the good fight and I hope all pilots back you to the hilt!

[ferris]

Normasars AIPA didn't sanction the statement. Joe did this off his own bat, and that is the issue the Co has. You might want to be a bit careful in your defence of the company. In the radio interview available on this website, JE states that AIPA was involved (in that they vetted the article). Furthermore, the issue the company has is that they don't want people airing their dirty laundry- nothing to do with the manner in which they do it. If JE had've written an article praising the company and it's management, do you think they would have fired him? It's about the CONTENT- that's what upsets them.

[DutchRoll]

Yeah I tend to agree that falling back on the FAM wording is a bit of a distraction. The FAM clause is there specifically to assist Jetstar in enforcing a double-standard: namely that they couldn't care less if someone publicly praised the company without permission, but stating a few uncomfortable home truths is an entirely different matter.

Virtual summary dismissal for a single administrative FAM breach might be considered by many as an extreme over-reaction, and I hope that's the way the courts see it too.

Then we have the problem that Jetstar have now all but publicly accused him of lying (which is just CEOs shooting from the hip without any thought for what they're saying to the media in their attempt at damage-control). That may open a can of worms in court which Jetstar could come to regret. Counter-suit for defamation, anybody? That I'd love to see!

[Incloud]

JE did not "do this off his own bat". The letter was passed through AIPA and they were aware of its content and intention. Why they now choose to stand on the back foot in admitting knowledge of this im not sure.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Whilst I am certainly not heartless and feel for Joe and his family, I also hope there is a positive outcome for him and his fellow pilots, I believe it important that the truth is also spoken above all this emotional chest beating.

The race to the bottom,,,, was it not a requirement to pay for your endorsement / borrow the money to obtain the job ?.

In the time, and still in my mind, taking a position within one star would be a morally wrong decision, so as suggested, I voted with my feet and never applied.

In the mean while many ran at the opportunity, selling off their grand mothers body organs for the privledge of having the much loved jet job, at any cost.....

So, do you really have the right to bitch and moan, what did you think was going to happen ?, when they found pilots they could employ for less cost, they went for it, just like you numpties did to the rest of us not that long ago.

I hope there is a positive outcome from this event for your group, but I doubt it very much.

Why is AIPA asking for donations ?, they should already have the battle armour on ?, what exactly have you guys been paying your membership for ?.

Sure I've heard all the bleating, "If I didn't someone else would have", "I needed to get out of GA", " Paying, its the way of the future". Save it, I'm not listening.

So save the poor "one star pilots" routine, you can not be stupid enough to have not known what you were accepting, what your actions would do to the expectation of many organisation in the after math of your actions.

I wish you well, but would not fart in your general direction, you made the decision, now accept the consequences of that decision.

[Incloud]

Now i see where you got the last part of your name from. Nice to see people cracking that old chestnut and moving forward. What Joe was stating and fighting for has the future potenial to affect us all. Take that anti J* to another forum. Im sure its been done to death.

wish you well, but would not fart in your general direction, you made the decision, now accept the consequences of that decision.

What does that have to do with anything??? He made the decision to stand up for what was right. He made the decision to speak up when others wouldnt and say what we all were thinking.... You might not agree with the establishment of J*,, but this is not about that.....

AS far as farting in our general direction......well... im sure no-one here would piss on u if u were on fire.. :mad:

[Mstr Caution]

What happened before the published article?

JE spoke at a gathering of pilots in August this year.

The thrust of his arguement was delivered in a speech to the wider pilot audience & no different to that published in the later article.

Media were in attendance, I assume invited by AIPA & recorded his speech in full. Infact there were "grabs" of his speech televised following the meeting of pilots.

Why is it the company is so critical of the published article, when the same arguement was presented to a wider group of pilots organsised by AIPA in which media were also present.

Wasn't the published article just a re-hash of what had already took place?

MC

[Shed Dog Tosser]

What Joe was stating and fighting for has the future potenial to affect us all

You must have a short memory, that is exactly what the rest of the industry were saying when you and yours decided it was OK to pay for an endorsement, accept the "new" pay scales and increased working hours, that my friend was the start of the spiral dive.

Whilst it must be quite convenient for you to bleat now, you should have thought about this at the beginning.

If you still don't get the concept, let me know, I'll use smaller words.

[Incloud]

Not that it matters.. but i dont work for J*.. and never paid for my endorsement for the company I work for... And we are now starting to move away from the point of this thread so not going to get into a slanging match. Lets support Joe and our industry and move forward..... U can use whatever words u like.

[Guitar Joe]

Good on you Joe, you have my support. Another $150 for the fund.

[Sand dune Sam]

Well done Joe.....refreshing to see someone stand on their dig..lets hope that he gets the total support from his peers within Jetstar...will also be interesting to see if the ex Impulse guys at the top of the Jetstar list throw their support behind Joe and not display the cowardice of 2 years ago with the EBA vote...

Again, well done Joe...super effort mate!!:ok:

[John Citizen]

$200 just sent. :ok:

[Nuthinondaclock]

Just my take on it but I reckon Jet* are trying one on here. They might be talking it up but I reckon it’s odds on that they will lose at FWA and they know it. They don’t care though.

If they get away with it then it sends a message that no-one stands out of line and it helps pave the way for their lower-Low Cost operation out of Singapore. A potential big win for them.

If they lose, all they have do is re-instate Joe, pay him what in relative terms for them is small bucks and they’re back to where they were beforehand. Yeah, they've lost a small battle, but they’ve still made life very uncomfortable for one bloke by dragging him and his family through hell so it still stands as a warning to anyone else who shows dissent. It achieves the same thing, just at a different cost. They think they’re being smart but these actuaries and accountants are effing thick how they fail to realise how much good-will and high morale in their pilot ranks can save them. Their valuation of the dollar worth of this is wrong and come the revolution they’ll be up against the wall right behind CEO’s and IR Consultants! :E:E:E

Back to Joe;
The best thing we can all do to help Joe, so that at least he doesn’t suffer the financial stress Jet* has attempted to impose on him, is to donate now if you haven’t already done so.

[metrosmoker]

I find it interesting the comments regarding the expectation/requirement/demand for all J* pilots to get behind and support(financially as well) JE.
But I would be interested to know how many QF guys are getting behind him. This has been labelled a J* issues from day 1. Day 1 for most of you is when FSO136 was issued. When in fact day 1 was a little over 6 years ago.

According the alot of people on here, J* has been a blight on the aviation industry in this country and only survived because of the might of Qantas and some clever accounting. Maybe, maybe not. But lets not forget one thing. J* isn`t the ones that havent hired for 2 years. J* isn`t the one the is not growing. J* isn`t the one that has got pilots sitting in the back seat of a 747 or 380 with no prospect of promotion for the foreseeable future.

This is as much a Qantas issue as it is a J* one. Everyone is concerned and p!ssed off because the next 2 A330 for J* are going to Singapore on foreign T&C`s. When in fact, the real issue should be that, Qantas are buying two A330`s and giving them to a competitor to operate directly against mainline.

This is a Qantas issue too.

And if you a still in any doubt/denial, I gaurantee that the next plane to be based in Singapore will be a 787 painted in Qantas colours and flown (potentially) by foreign nationals on foreign T&C`s. Then maybe the penny will drop. There goes your LH EBA and seniority.

[rmcdonal]

Nuthinondaclock I would imagine Jetstar have a fairly good case against Joe, after all the contracts are fairly specific as to what you can and can't say to the public. Particularly if you can be identified as an employee. Sure good on him for standing up for what he believes in, but seriously what did anyone expect would happen? That Jetstar would see the light and go 'oh yeah, perhaps we should reconsider the Asia move'. Or maybe that the public would stop buying $20 airfares in disgust.

Shed Dog You hit it on the head, it seems the Jetstar boys are just upset that what they did to everyone else in the industry is now happening to them.

[Moneybox]

Im pretty sure he can have a job at Tiger if he wants it ... though he might be better off flipping burgers! :ooh:

[captainrats]

A somewhat weak interview of AJ by Alan Kohler.Typical crap about safety is our culture and focus.
When asked about JE Joyce responded by expressing his disappointment at Joe not responding to mangement invitations to "come in and discuss the problems" as other pilots had.
Joyce is looking more like a puppet every day

[Bigboeingboy]

A proper work force would have walked off the job!

[speeeedy]

These armchair lawyers who think that one contravention (or even a few) of a minor administrative rule means you deserve to get the sack are just plain wrong, god help us all if this is industrial law these days.

Joe did break a rule, but I am certain that Joe still has a very strong case.

Just like any legal matter there must be a reasonableness test, and Jetstar have failed it (and almost by there own admission).

What injury did Jetstar suffer? Virtually none, yet the punishment to Joe was severe.

If someone trespasses on your property, there is no doubt that they have done something wrong, it doesn't mean you can shoot them dead.

Remember his article was only in one online news site for about two days, now as a result of Jetstars heavy handedness it is now everywhere. They can't argue that they are concerned about their reputation if they are the ones that made a federal case (literally it seems) out of it.

Money sent. Go Joe!

[A. Le Rhone]

Nuthinondaclock got it exactly right.On the surface this is about Joe but the real agenda is to shoot across your bows and ensure you piddling pilots stay firmly supressed in your lowly positions playing with your little toy aeroplanes leaving the important business to the big boys.

It is purely designed to keep a repressed, scared group that way for as long as possible.

Only problem with the that theory is that globally, airlines are getting hungrier for experienced crews by the day. Where I work is becoming like a J* old boys club!

The theory that 'we don't care how many pilots we lose, there will always be more to fill their shoes' is rapidly becoming unworkable. Trying the dodgy overseas-trained unknown quantity route for new pilots can only end in tears.

[Keg]

Then maybe the penny will drop.

As previously mentioned on this and other threads, the penny dropped LONG ago and many of us even tried to warn Impulse pilots and potential J* pilots of the game that was afoot. You're a dill if you think that QF pilots aren't supporting Joe directly- and have committed to do so regularly until the issue is resolved.

Let's not even bother getting into the relative flow of subs from QF pilot members compared to J* pilot members of AIPA. After all, it is a pilots association and looking after Joe is in keeping with what the aims of AIPA has always been.

[maui]

Thats a bit rich Keg.

AIPA was formed from the ashes of the AFAP overseas branch, when that group broke away, in part, because they felt it inequitous that they should be contributing, what they considered to be, a disproportionate sum to the betterment of GA. That same part of the industry that they were complicit in the plunder of, to get QF cadets their all important command hours.

That same selfish attitude will manifest itself again when the aims of VIPA run contrary to the aims of AIPA.

At the moment it suits AIPA to support Joe. If it was not in their self interest they wouldn't lift a finger.

The leopards spots are just as bright as they ever were.

Go Joe, you desrve the support. Sadly, you have more spine than the majority. What a force we could be if everyone was as proactive for the COMMON good.

Maui

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Keg,

I find it interesting that you feel QF pilots should support one star pilots, given the one star pilots actions will be the main catalyst for any issues with future pay and conditions.

One could suggest that, they've already knowingly done QF pilots a dis-service , do they deserve your trust ?.

I'm sure there are some great folks among them, but, if in the future they were offered your job if they'd do it for less coin, do you think they would ?, they already have once.

It is not my intension to bag one star pilots, but, IMHO they should hang their heads in shame, their conscious decision caused this (there were many many people saying do not do it,,,, but they did) and I believe they have no right to complain.

[Keg]

Maui, having had the opportunity to discuss the reasons behind QF drivers leaving AFAP and becoming AIPA with some of those intimately involved in it, my assessment is that you're telling just a very tiny part of the story.

Perhaps a larger part of the story is that the domestic pilots at the time (Ansett, TAA, Ipec) had the numbers in AFAP. The net result was sacrificing many long haul issues to feather their own nests in the domestic arena.

I'm very proud to be a member of AIPA who as a group stands up for QF group pilots in the belief of furthering the profession.

Shed Dog Tosser, what the original members of Impulse and J* did to QF crew is water under the bridge now. At the time many QF drivers begged for unity and yes, some IPC/ J* crew laughed in our faces. I've got no doubt that some of those guys would do the same again. That said, the overwhelming majority of J* crew joined after these times. In that respect, once they've joined, both they and the current QF pilots would be nuts if they didn't see that our futures are aligned and that we've got more in common than what separates us.

At the end of the day, Joe is a fellow pilot. His comments were spot on. He's been shafted and I'm going to support him.

[Captain Sherm]

Shed Dog

That is a very cruel post and unworthy of a professional pilot.

I was not around at the time but I don't think that AIPA wanted to discuss life with the Impulse pilots. What exactly would you have had them do. Resign the moment Qantas bought their company? And has AIPA expelled the myriad QF drivers who transferred across to JQ under the MOA? Do QF drivers refuse to travel on JQ aircraft when they're on hols? Do QF drivers blacklist and refuse to carry JQ code-share passengers. Do QF pilots refuse that protion of their pay packet which is paid for by JQ profits?

The industry would be very different now had AIPA taken a firm stand to support their domestic colleagues in 1989. They didn't and life moved on.

Is this the ideal: that no Australian pilot would have ever joined VB after Ansett's demise and no Australian pilot would have ever flown for JQ?

Really?

[maui]

Keg

Absolutely correct. It was a part of the split. That is clearly indicated in my post. There were lots of other parts, including a large degree of self interest and ego.

And when guys were lining up for Impulse/J* did all you AIPA guys stand up and say no guys don't do it, don't give up your ****ty GA job, we will contribute to your well being. We will use our industrial might and expertise to right this great wrong. Just hang in there and we will ensure you are all employed in a shiny jet, in an orderly manner on conditions more aligned with the Q. We will help you????

Nuff said. this is supposed to be about support for Joe.

Maui

[Come in spinner]

M R and Ratpoison I would like to hear what Mark R has done in a previous life, must admit I don't trust the man

[Iwasoneonce]

Apologies if this has been stated previous.

Did the author of that article have in his contract no talking to the press, or words to that effect? If he did, then he hasn't a leg to stand on of course. Yes I admire the b**lls of the guy actually speaking the truth. However as pilots will never ever stick together on issues such as this, his actions maybe seen as foolish. Did any of his colleagues make a stand for him when he got the boot? Of course not. He should have known he would get not one bit of support from anyone, union member or not, after being in aviation 10years.

[ratpoison]

Spinner,
If we discuss that,it will definitely go off topic. If you set up a topic on snakes and other reptiles of aviation, it will be worth the chat.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Captain Sherm,

It may well be perceived as a cruel post and I accept your opinion that it presents an unprofessional image, IMHO, the decisions that were made by some in the name of personal gain was done at the great cost to others.

Theirs is not a victimless act ( yes, I know, grammatically incorrect, but I hope you get my point ).

I do not believe this issue has anything to do with employing overseas pilots, it is about corporate ethics, a one star does not change its spots.....

cut cut cut, slash slash slash, money money money.

First it was, employing on lower conditions - increased shareholder profit (ISHP), less service - ISHP, cheaper maintenance - ISHP, an attempt to again lower conditions - ISHP, reduce training cost (candidate pay) - ISHP and ISHP = increased executive bonuses....

As stated in my earlier posts, good luck to Joe, but the horse bolted quite some time ago WRT to engaging some sort of corporate ethics.

[Whiskery]

I would like to hear what Mark R has done in a previous life, must admit I don't trust the man

Let's see...........

Week 15

40 Mark R............. A320 MEL C

[Thai997]

Wiskery,

Although I agree its not really relevant, as a lot of water has gone under the bridge.... But indulge me anyway.....

What were the rest of the JQ management pilots doing 21 years ago ?

It might help the boys at JQ to know who they can trust.

[gobbledock]

What were the rest of the JQ management pilots doing 21 years ago ?
Doing the same they are now but with a with a different airline somewhere around the globe -licking ass !

[Gnadenburg]

Let's not start this. As important a lesson as the 1989 Pilot's Strike is, I can hold my hand on my heart and say, those that did not or were not taken back, are some of the most psychopathic monsters in the work place I have come across when in management roles.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Just an opinion and it may be relevant.

How many countless volumes of policy are Jetstar or for that matter Qantas Group employees bound by? How is it possible to have read and digested every one of those policies that the airlines claim make up your employment contract?

In my view the policies are there in such great volumes that you cannot possibly abide by every one of them. At any point in time an airline can claim that your actions are in some way a breach of a policy that they have created.

Was Alan Joyce bound by these policies when he stated that Asian rates need to be paid to compete with Asian Airlines? If that was true, was Hall in breach of the policies when he said that Joe had been misleading when he said the same thing? Isn't there something in the policies about acting with the highest integrity? If so, one of them was lying to the public. I'd be happy if they both went.

[War with Inner Peace]

Honestly, not many Pilots impress me industrially, but, Joe is everything a Pilot Union Representative should be.

Support Joe financially, for life if necessary, and morally, but, widen your gaze to the real game.

In every group of Employees there is 20% who will never side with the Company, 20% who will always side with the Company and 60% up for grabs.

This all about that 60%.

The Company is testing you.

Will you cower or will you stand and fight?

The Company wants to find out. Greed is a disease and is insatiable.

There is no limits to cost-cutting and the Executives will never stop.

That's why they always talk in percentages and never fixed dollar values.

BUT, please realise the Employees have all the power.

If you don't come to work even the CEO will be out on the street.

Does the Company have a Whistleblower Policy?

AIPA President Capt Barry Jackson should write the next article. Will he be sacked? Maybe.

If so, every Union Representative should write an article.

Will they be sacked? Maybe.

If so, every Pilot in the Group should write an article. Will they be sacked? Who cares!! The Bosses will be sacked at that stage.

Also realise, the Company's management may have damaged the Company's reputation more than a single news article.

The management's current actions may cause you stress, anxiety, anger or depression.

If these emotions impair you in any way then the Law, and Company Policy, state that you should not operate an Aircraft.

Simple, take some time off, seek medical attention and write to the CEO advising the specific reasons for taking sick leave.

Safety First.

Most importantly guard your health and learn to deal with stress effectively. Stress can kill you!!

Joe, I'll send you some money every week for as long as it takes, send me a PM if you want chat.:ok:

Regards,

WWIP

[Hans Solo]

WWIP.........Best idea yet!!!
Why dont you J* guys draft a letter along the same lines as JE and then all put your signatures to it?
Now, sacking one poor bloke is one thing, but dismissal of all operational crews might be a little more difficult.
Thing is, there is only strength in numbers when the numbers stick together.
J* management may just call it a stunt, but they are going to look a little hypocritical if the same rule does'nt apply to all.
It would certainly be a poke-in-the-eye to J* management, and a morale booster to Joe!

[Flava Saver]

Hans and everyone else

What i'm suggesting is a bit of a pipe dream, but if ALL (ok, read majority) JQ & QF drivers (and any Virgin or Tiger comrades) put our signatures to it in the national media (read full page ads, and even TV ads), they could sack almost 3000 professional pilots, and stop this nation from moving right now, due to breach of code of conduct.

Would they? I'm doubting it. With the punch Qf group is copping regarding safety, and the looming senate enquiry, they are backed into the corner like nothing else.

As pilots we are not demanding more money ala 1989 (no disrespect), or ridiculous & outrageous condtions regarding this particular situation, but ultimately (to get Joe his job back &) stop the rot with the industry, and the corporate bullies that seem to dictate where we are headed.

This situation right now is pivotal to the industry in years to come.

Putting the pilot politics aside between mainline & Jetstar and anything else for that matter for what has happened in the past, right now is the most important time in our careers.

No one wants to disrupt mum & dad and the kids over summer holidays, but we have to take a stand.

I urge everyone that sits in their window seats and looks out at the sky, day in, day out, and remembers why they got into this industry to harden up a little, and put any short term monetry gain aside (ie working days off) to enjoy lifestyle, and the career they chose for the benefit of themselves.

If we drop the ball on this troops, we are completely f a r k e d for a long time. These managers will get their KPI's and retire happily ever after, not giving two hoots at a pilots career, and the money we've invested.

[PittsS2A]

Sent via J* Feedback

"Dear Sir/Madam,
RE: Sacking of First Officer Joeseph Eakins.
As a customer of Jetstar and other airlines of the QANTAS Group I wish to express my utter disgust at the summarial dismissal of First Officer Joeseph Eakins for informing the general public and your customers of the concerns of the wider pilot community with regards to the safety implications of cost cutting measures that the management of your company seek to implement.
What you have done in dismissing First Officer Eakins is totaly un-australian and the manner in which you have done so raises many questions about the lengths at which your company executives will go to save a dollar and I, as a member of the travelling public are now more concerned than ever about the future of safety when travelling on any QANTAS group airlines aircraft.
It would seem in this case that Jetstar is not only the home of low fares but is now also becoming the home of low concern for safety and low life scumbags for management.
I challenge anyone from your company to justify to me why I, any member of my family, circle of friends or work collegues should trust Jetstar or any QANTAS Group airline any more and until such time as somebody can I will no longer be a customer of yours.
I am absoloutely filthy with the way your company has handled this situation.
Sincerely"

I dont expect a reply any time soon !

Come on J* Pilots its time to pull the rug out from under DH and his DH mates in management, dont stand behind Joe, stand right beside him and show these low life scumbags who the real bosses are, it's now or never.

[Shell Management]

CASA should act.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

CASA should act. :p

That's funny.

[War with Inner Peace]

If you are a Union Delegate or Organiser with membership within the Group then call a meeting today to discuss Joe Eakins and the possible SAFETY ramfications of Management silencing vocal critics.

Use your right of entry, be visible, invite a member of the press and talk to your membership.

Tonight's Headlines should read 'OTHER PILOTS SPEAK OUT'

If you are member of a union then contact them today and request a meeting. Stand up and be counted!!

Please realise, You have the Power.

You need to demonstrate that the Workforce will not be controlled by UNFAIR and UNAUSTRALIAN management practices!!

Regards,

WWIP

[balance]

Firstly, let me say that I wholly support Joe in his endeavours, and I have no beef with any individual Jetstar pilot.

But I do relate to Shed Dogs comments, and no Sherm, they werent cruel at all, they were realistic. Indeed I offer the following in relation to your reply:

I was not around at the time but I don't think that AIPA wanted to discuss life with the Impulse pilots

No, they didnt. And why should they? Are you suggesting that AIPA should embrace every pilot group that springs up and threatens to undercut them? That would hasten our race to the bottom, wouldnt you say? What happens when Airlines of Meekathara now step in and tell Qantas they will fly Jetstar and Qantas' routes for 20% less crew costs? You think AIPA should be pleased and welcome and support them? Hardly!

And has AIPA expelled the myriad QF drivers who transferred across to JQ under the MOA?

No, they are dealing with this situation the best way that they can. But look what is now happenning. The undercutters are being undercut. There is a serious irony there. Shed Dog has pointed out that these guys started that race, and Joe Eakins was the only one in that organisation to recognise it and say STOP, enough is enough. The rest of Jetstar should be up in arms, but ironically enough, we are hearing more from Qantas pilots than we are Jetstar.

Do QF drivers refuse to travel on JQ aircraft when they're on hols? Do QF drivers blacklist and refuse to carry JQ code-share passengers.

Of course they don't. That would be stupid unauthorised industrial action. Why on earth would you expect them to?

The industry would be very different now had AIPA taken a firm stand to support their domestic colleagues in 1989.

For F***s sake, this has NOTHING to do with 1989. Get over it. AIPA and Qantas is a totally different entity now. The possibility that you still harbour this bitterness and are willing to bring it into this discussion completely devalues the quality of some of your previous posts.

Is this the ideal: that no Australian pilot would have ever joined VB after Ansett's demise and no Australian pilot would have ever flown for JQ?

Well, how long is a peice of string? I dont know, nor do you, and nor does anyone else. Airline managements are going to try to find a way to screw us no matter what. If it wasnt Jetstar, Impulse, Virgin or Tiger, it would have been someone or something else.

Keg said:

Shed Dog Tosser, what the original members of Impulse and J* did to QF crew is water under the bridge now. At the time many QF drivers begged for unity and yes, some IPC/ J* crew laughed in our faces. I've got no doubt that some of those guys would do the same again. That said, the overwhelming majority of J* crew joined after these times. In that respect, once they've joined, both they and the current QF pilots would be nuts if they didn't see that our futures are aligned and that we've got more in common than what separates us.

An altruistic statememt if ever I've heard one. Yes - the Impulse guys likely precipitated this slide. But it is what it is now and we must fight it.

[Captain Sherm]

Balance

Let's not let this opportunity pass to get some closure in all the areas, not just 1989....

What should the Impulse drivers have done when their airline was bought?

What should a pilot do when JQ offers him a job but Qantas doesn't? It's not illegal to have a low cost subsidiary. There was no IFALPA recruitment ban and many QF pilots crossed over within a short time to get quick commands. So exactly what should a pilot do when he receives the job offer knowing that he cannot ever expect to join those on the QF EBA?

The Qantas Board, which runs a whole suite of AOC-holding operations, took a view, quite legal, that they would set up the JQ operation and pursue their pan-Asian strategy. Time will tell whether that is good strategy or not. But it is not illegal and if that is where the jobs are then what should pilots do?

For me....and only me....I have my own standards. I would not cross an AIPA (or indeed AFAP or any other union) picket line. I would not apply for a job where there was an IFALPA recruitment ban. And if QF drivers were on strike to get a scope clause then I would not fly with Qantas. If I were a Qantas EBA pilot and my union AIPA had a ban on transfers to JQ then I would not apply for a transfer. If I were an AFAP pilot with JQ and the union had a ban on transfers to JQ Asia or indeed QF I would follow that ban.

But that's only me. I have never taken a job overseas or Australia where the local union wasn't happy and yes I have always checked.

But I can't answer for everyone. 1989 is etched in my soul so that guides anything I would do or helps me explain to anyone who asks. But what exactly is your advice in retrospect to each individual who got a job offer from Jetstar knowing that there were no other jobs available?

[blow.n.gasket]

Just a quick clarification of events thus far, if I may.
It appears Jetstar management are going to town on Joe for a misdemeanor of the Corporate Policy manual.

Yet wasn't it alleged ,just a few short years ago that Boston Bruce was caught in first class, "red handed" so to speak, under a dancing blanket, in flagranti delicto?
I wonder why that issue wasn't pursued similarly as per Corporate policy? :eek:

[maui]

Balance

AIPA and QANTAS is a totally different entity now (my emphasis)

Freudian slip or reality?

The unity would explain a lot!

Maui

[balance]

Sherm, with respect:

What should the Impulse drivers have done when their airline was bought?

Ahh, negotiated a better deal? One which reflected long established benchmarks for pilot remuneration in this country? Fought for their profession, rather than say (as you suggest) "I cant get a better job, so I'll accept this one on crappy terms". This might have slowed or maybe even prevented this rapid slide to the bottom, I dont know?

It is very easy for spectators to make a judgement on this situation. Sherm, I presume you hold flying in Australia very deeply in your soul, and what happened in 1989 has helped shape who you are. But I fly for Qantas, I earned that position, and it too has shaped me. I'm one of those senior FO's who should have had a command by now, but by virtue of the LCC subsidiaries of QF, that is now quite a distance away. I'm watching as Jetstar recruits with one fifth of my experience gain a command on a shiny new A320.

Yes, I am annoyed at that, just as you are annoyed at those involved in 1989. So I expect that you might understand and share a little of my pain, because effectively, I am watching very similar things happen as happened to you back then. Trouble is, the two have zero to do with one another. We must fight the battle that we face now, not the demons of the past.

In fighting this battle, we must understand what brought about this situation. I can recall arguing with Impulse / Jetstar pilots at the start of this madness, and it gives me no pleasure to say "I told you so", because their unwillingness to negotiate, their "this is the best job I can get" attitude, their contempt for AIPA / Qantas, has dropped us all in it.

But what exactly is your advice in retrospect to each individual who got a job offer from Jetstar knowing that there were no other jobs available?

Was there no other job available to these guys? How do you know there wasnt? Where is your evidence?

I would suggest to you that most of these guys joined Jetstar to fly a shiny new A320, to get jet time up before moving to another higher paying carrier, only to find that the higher paying carrier doesnt exist! Is Jetstar a career oriented company? I think not, therefore, this was clearly a temporary gig for most of these people.

So, in truth, I cant answer your question fully. I can say that I understand why an individual might take a Jetstar job and again, I have no issue with any one Jetstar pilot, except perhaps for "MR", who seems to have turned his back on his bretheren, rather like "WK" in Qantas. I can also say that I am angry at the Jetstar pilot collective, for not having some collective "balls", and standing up and fighting for a career path, decent terms, and starting us on this downhill.

But again, it is in my interest as a QF pilot, and in the interest of my colleagues, to fight this battle on the Jetstar pilots behalf. Because I sure havent heard one peep from the Jetstar Pilot Council, or any other Jetstar pilot for that matter. This tends to confirm my suspicions that the Jetstar Pilot group, as a collective, is spineless and weak, and without our assistance, will be walked over once again, further denigrating our profession.

Sorry Sherm, you just happened to be nearby when I needed a rant. Thanks for listening. :}

[CaptCloudbuster]

The JPC are conspicuously mute on this important workplace issue:oh:

[Mr. Hat]

Money sent. Urging all my fellow Virgin pilots to support this. Consider it an investment.

Most have no idea of the following

1. Nick Xenophon's role in trying to stop this industries decline into the abyss.
2. The Senate Enquiry
3. Jetstars offshoring of Aussie jobs
4. Joe Eakins

No idea not one clue. Never heard of it. And the reason is....

has anybody heard from the AFAP on this matter

The weakest link/the mole in a unified pilot community. Their silence/weak approach on the above matters has convinced me that they are the problem and not the solution. I was once a supporter but the last 6 months of total inaction and pathetic position has made me do a complete 180.

They could make the difference but they wont.

Lucky they have the MBF.

[rmcdonal]

has anybody heard from the AFAP on this matter
The weakest link/the mole in a unified pilot community. Their silence/weak approach on the above matters has convinced me that they are the problem and not the solution.
I'm sorry, but how is Joe an AFAP matter? I was of the impression that he was an AIPA Com Member, not AFAP.
AFAP have submitted their views to the Senate Inquiry. If you had looked at the AFAP website under general news you would have seen that. You would have even seen their approach to off shoring.
It seems that your only acceptable action would be unprotected industrial action.

[The The]

It is an AFAP matter as the AFAP are signatory to the J* EBA. They are thus major stakeholders in ANYTHING to do with J* pilots.

I would have liked to see Joe, AIPA, AFAP ALEA and even the FAAA all together at a media conference explaining where they saw aviation safety heading, particularly in regard to off-shoring.

Unfortunately, most senate hearings are not big media events and a submission to the hearing is seldom reported anywhere.

The case of Joe is a catalyst for huge media attention. An aviation employee organisation would be stupid not to leverage off it for the benefit of their members. You simply can't buy this kind of free kick publicity.

I want to see Joe reinstated. Secondly I want to see that what he has been through will not be for nothing. It will hopefully lead to real change.

[Mr. Hat]

views to the Senate Inquiry

Weak as piss - corrupt.

Joe an AFAP matter

1. Nick Xenophon's role in trying to stop this industries decline into the abyss.
2. The Senate Enquiry
3. Jetstars offshoring of Aussie jobs
4. Joe Eakins

PILOT MATTERS.

AFAP convenient/coincident media silence/very quiet/non existent on all the matters. In fact at once stage Bruce Buchanan used them to support his argument. God help us.

What sort of presence was there at the SYD, MEL and BNE PILOT meetings? NIL. Even the engineers union put an appearance in for god sakes! As a member of this union I did not receive ANY notification of ANY of these events apart from the first meeting haphazardly sent out the night before. Pissed off boys.

Fact of the matter is a unified front is what this industry needs. ALL unions standing together regardless of it being a J* QF VB or whoever matter. The attacks on our industry are everybody's business.

I'll interpret silence as support for big business and reduction in conditions.

[Mr. Hat]

Forget Aca, Forget Sunrise, Forget 60 Minutes. Forget Mornings With Dr Harry Or Whatever.

This Is One For 4 Corners Or Back In The 80's For Those That Remember - The Investigators.

[rmcdonal]

What sort of presence was there at the SYD, MEL and BNE PILOT meetings? NIL. Even the engineers union put an appearance in for god sakes! As a member of this union I did not receive ANY notification of ANY of these events apart from the first meeting haphazardly sent out the night before.
Your absolutely right, AFAP should provide advertising for all of AIPAs events. :ugh::ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

My point exactly.

This is the root of the problem. "Its their problem not ours. Who cares."

Thats it. Doesn't affect me who gives a..

Maybe I'm different but I'd expect a union to encourage members to attend meetings, raise awareness, participate in, speak out about issues that affect the broader pilot community. Support our colleagues no matter what their membership or colours. A grown up version of what we are seeing today.

Sort of like in GA when a pilot from the opposition was in a pickle and you'd lend a hand because ultimately the only difference was the shirt colour.

I need to lower my expectations and curb my ideals.

[Chimbu chuckles]

The degree of naivety on this thread is just mind boggling.

When I read Eakins' letter to the Australian I experienced a sharp intake of breath. From the moment it was published under his real name his tenure at J* was EXTREMELY tenuous.

Do you people not remember WHY we don't use our real names on this forum?

Is there an airline anywhere in the world at any time that has NOT had a clause in its employment agreement that PROHIBITS the very behaviour that Eakins' has demonstrated?

Why didn't he keep it in house if he really believed the issues were safety rather than industrial?

I am going to suggest the reason we have heard nothing from JPC/AFAP is that they KNOW Eakins has shot himself in both feet in such a way that he is beyond realistic help.

Eakins has expressed a degree of shock and dismay at the predicament he has found himself in - welcome to the real world Mr Eakins. Life is generally harder when you don't ask, and take heed of, advice from the grown ups. I can think of several people he SHOULD have asked advice from and LISTENED to BEFORE he went public.

To a man they would have said "Do this Joe and they WILL sack you and there will be not one thing AFAP/AIPA, or JC himself, will be able to do about it".

I watched AJ interviewed yesterday on ABC and he was asked about Eakins. He made it very clear that Eakins was spoken to on more than one occasion about these matters (before he went public) but was unwilling to modify his attitude ultimately leading to the Australian article. J*/QF management are not the guilty party here.

Eakins backed them into a corner.

Unlike AIPA, and many posters on PPrune, AFAP is industrially savvy enough to know what an 'industrial issue' looks like, let alone which ones are worth fighting.

If QF group wants to start an airline in Singapore, Vietnam or outer fcking Mongolia it has NOT ONE THING to do with AIPA or AFAP.

NOTHING!

IF J* offers temporary postings to staff to get that airline off the ground - with all the protections they have put in place re right of return, seniority etc - then that is a matter for the staff concerned NOT AIPA/AFAP.

If said staff accept the T&Cs on offer then that is their right - if they end up running foul of the ATO tough ****, they should have been better informed.

If that entity operates into and out of Australia then so be it. Its got NOT ONE thing to do with AIPA/AFAP let alone the greater Australian pilot polity.

SQ,EK,BA,CX, RBA, PX, Air Pac, Air Vanuatu ALL operate into and out of Australia with Australian nationals at the controls but for some strange reason that is not deemed an industrial, let alone safety, issue.

J* Singapore as a legal entity is NO DIFFERENT and AIPA/AFAP have no more input to it than they do at EK or CX.

It seems only AFAP has the industrial maturity to understand that fact.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it illegal or even inappropriate. All I see in this thread, and across the Australian aviation landscape generally, is a bunch of industrially naive Gen X/Y children spinning themselves into a knot over stuff that is either none of their business or a complete NON ISSUE.

10 years ago Impulse was a small airline in Port Macquarie operating B1900s. It was bought, re fleeted with B717s, staffed with appropriate experience to allow the former B1900 crews to progress to the LHS of jets in a short period. Sold again it became J* with Airbus aircraft and providing quality employment to a huge number of people.

A DEC C&Ter accepting employment at Impulse on the 717 was paid 90k with a one page contract - no overtime etc. 7 years later through diligent and mature negotiations undertaken in good faith that same individual can earn triple that early wage under an EBA that, even AIPA acknowledged, is VERY good. The most junior FO at J* now earned more than the most senior C&Ter did just a few years before and with command prospects measured in years rather than decades.

But is anybody hailing the JPC (of the day) and the J* pilot group generally as worthy of praise?

Nope they are attacked and derided at every chance.

It may be (who knows?) that BB has the current J* EBA in his sights - THAT would be a battle worth fighting - in the meantime all I see is people bleeding out on the industrial sidewalk for no good reason.

[Mr. Hat]

Might as well let them walk all over us on every front then. I get it.

Savvy.

[Roller Merlin]

Union playing safety card for industrial reasons – Joyce
Item by australianaviation.com.au at 12:12 pm, Monday November 29 2010

Alan Joyce has defended the sacking of a Jetstar pilot.
Qantas CEO Alan Joyce has accused AIPA (the Australian and International Pilots Association) of playing the “safety card” when it is instead waging an industrial dispute over Jetstar’s sacking of first officer Joe Eakins for a recent newspaper article, noting that Eakins had breached Jetstar’s code of conduct.
“When something is related to industrial relations issues and it’s a breach of the code of conduct we’re going to act in that way,” Joyce told ABC TV’s Inside Business program in an interview which aired on November 28. “And again, for the union to use this as an example and use this to say it’s all about safety is them using the safety card for industrial relations. It’s purely that yet again. It is outrageous that they keep doing this.”
Said Joyce of Eakins’ actions, “He was given opportunities to come in and talk about why he was doing it and to correct the action. He refused to come in and talk to the management and the management were left with no other action but to actually terminate his employment.”
Joyce also defended Jetstar’s decision to base pilots in Singapore on Singaporean wages and conditions, Eakins’ key point of contention in his newspaper article.
“What the pilots in Singapore are actually employed to fly for [is] Jetstar Asia which is a Singapore entity, flying and competing against all of the carriers in the region and the pilots are paid quite well,” Joyce said.
“They’re paid in the top few per cent of the population in that country.”
Meanwhile, AIPA has launched a petition protesting the sacking, which will be sent to Jetstar Australia and NZ CEO David Hall, and a support fund to raise money for Eakins.
“You can be sure that this event is a turning point for Australian aviation. Pilots’ jobs and the safety regime they fly by is under attack by airlines, particularly aggressive low cost carriers such as Jetstar that pretend to welcome feedback but sack people when that feedback is too clear and too compelling to hear,” AIPA posted on the pprune.org website.
“You can also be sure that AIPA will devote whatever is required to assist Joe Eakins return to his career as a pilot.”

Conveniently omitted the issues that CASA may be forced to oversight the operation of Oz registered aircraft based in a foreign country, and pilots on "Leave without pay" from the mothership are likely to pay Aussie tax rates making them much worse off than J* Asia guys.

[ferris]

IMHO the biggest issue (now) is that J* have exposed their plan- they have clearly stated that the reason for this 'off shoring' is to avoid the costs of doing business in Australia eg. taxes, employee entitlements, any rules regarding experience which may or may not come about etc. They constantly bang on about the individual being no worse off (whether that is true or not is hotly debatable, especially when they make comments along the lines of "the pilot will have his super paid directly to him"! ie. included in the package as salary), but what they are really saying is that they will reduce their costs. By avoiding the costs that Australian based companies have to wear.
The pollies might want to think about that.

[Ichiban]

Inside Business 28th November

Play Video Employment policies are not safety concerns: Joyce - Inside Business - ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/insidebusiness/content/2010/s3078523.htm)

ALAN KOHLER, PRESENTER: By any measure it's been a pretty awful month for Qantas.

The potentially devastating disintegration of an engine in one of the new A380 with 466 souls on board spawned a global media frenzy.

And that incident over Indonesia was quickly followed by a succession of other mishaps and turn backs and just this week a pilot at Jetstar was sacked after criticising the low cost subsidiary's off-shore employment policy and the effect it could have on safety.

More headlines, more damage control. By the end of the week Qantas did manage to get two of its multibillion-dollar A380 fleet back into limited service with the boss, Alan Joyce, on board.

Appearing comfortable and relaxed of course.

I spoke to him before he boarded the flight to London.

Alan Joyce, how do you reconcile the sacking of Joe Eakins, the Jetstar pilot, for raising safety concerns when you've always said that you would never discipline anyone for raising safety concerns?

ALAN JOYCE, CEO QANTAS: Yeah well in this case the pilot in question didn't raise safety concerns. He raised issues that are industrial relations issues related to employment in Singapore and relating to progression within the organisation. Nothing to do with safety.

ALAN KOHLER: Well he did say that lower pay that you're paying in Singapore will lead to safety problems.

ALAN JOYCE: What the pilots in Singapore are actually employed to fly for Jetstar Asia which is a Singapore entity, flying and competing against all of the carriers in the region and the pilots are paid quite well.

They're paid in the top few per cent of the population in that country. So there's no issues here with safety and I think in the case of this pilot, he did break the code of conduct. It is very clear what the code of conduct for the organisation is. That was broken on multiple occasions.

He was given opportunities to come in and talk about why he was doing it and to correct the action. He refused to come in and talk to the management and the management were left with no other action but to actually terminate his employment.

There were other pilots there, there was another pilot did the same thing and the process ended with that pilot understanding what the code of conduct was and he stopped the conduct. Now I have to say Jetstar, like all of Qantas, really takes safety reporting as a top priority. We get thousands of reports every year that we pass on to the ATSB and a lot that we look at ourselves. We go out and encourage reporting when it's related to safety issues.

When something is related to industrial relations issues and it's a breach of the code of conduct we're going to act in that way. And again, for the union to use this as an example and use this to say it's all about safety is them using the safety card for industrial relations. It's purely that yet again. It is outrageous that they keep doing this.

[TIMA9X]

Gentleman, AJ speaks to the media on the 28th of November regarding J Es sacking and presto on the 29th Nov two stories (although not directly related to JEs situation) appear in the same paper SMH all day long, headed;

1. NEW QANTAS NIGHTMAREVideo - Qantas baggage bug - The Sydney Morning Herald (http://media.smh.com.au/qantas-baggage-bug-2070611.html)
Sydney-bound passengers were told they could walk out on to the Sydney Airport tarmac to "search through trolleys" of missing bags if they signed a form and donned a yellow vest.

and

2. "I'll never fly Qantas again" : death of an iconic brand?'I'll never fly Qantas again': death of an iconic brand? (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/travellers-check/ill-never-fly-qantas-again-death-of-an-iconic-brand/20101129-18cq5.html) I was dismayed when I turned on the TV news last night. I don't want to overdramatise it, but I felt I had tuned in to watch an iconic Australian brand struggling for its life.Both nothing stories but a good example of how some at QF/J* have come across to the reporters over the last few weeks. The inside business story should/could have been avoided as it only sowed more doubt, not only with the public but highlighted J Es case again, telling the world that there is something not quite right with the staff as well. I believe we are at a point where the guys in the control tower at QF/J* take a deep breath, learn from its PR disasters of late, sit down and listen to the staff and try and resolve a few issues in-house. Please forgive me for posting on this thread, but I felt starting a new one is not appropriate at this time.
Having said that, I do understand that Joe Eakins situation is the main thrust of this thread, I wish him well, and trust, his predicament can somehow result with a happy ending. Best wishes to all.

[DutchRoll]

ALAN JOYCE: What the pilots in Singapore are actually employed to fly for Jetstar Asia which is a Singapore entity, flying and competing against all of the carriers in the region and the pilots are paid quite well. They're paid in the top few per cent of the population in that country.A bit like saying the Air India Express pilots are paid in the top few percent of Indian wage-earners. Golly! Well why didn't you say that before, AJ? Now I feel much more comfortable with the prospect of flying with these types of offshore cheap airlines!
:ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

ALAN JOYCE, CEO QANTAS: Yeah well in this case the pilot in question didn't raise safety concerns. He raised issues that are industrial relations issues related to employment in Singapore and relating to progression within the organisation. Nothing to do with safety.

Ok thats the companies interpretation of the article. Does this mean any Jetstar or Qantas pilot that submits anything of the like to the Senate Enquiry will also be dismissed? Its kind of the same thing depending again on interpretation of the code of conduct.

Hmmm. Alan Joyce and the QF group have started digging a hole. I can see some smiling lawyers/barristers filling their pockets with fistfulls of cash in the high court.

Some interesting concepts coming up here. Freedom of speech and the code of conduct crossing paths. So why bother having a Senate Enquiry at all if the people that know the most about whats happening in the flight deck technically can't speak about it due to a potential breach of the code of conduct? Indeed this whole forum should be outlawed.

For the record I don't think anyone should attach their name to an article or submission to a Senate enquiry for these very reasons. And thats why the Senate enquiry will never get the full truth about this industry. Very few would risk a career under the control of a dictatorship.

Maybe North Korea could learn something from Australia. Thats it, pretend to be a democracy but deep down hold extreme dictatorship values as the basis on which to run the country. The history of whistleblowers in this country isn't very good. Do you remember the Four Corners episode about the whistle blower. Recommended viewing.

Indeed I'd say the message to employees is "Keep your mouth shut or we will fire you". Safety officially in free fall. Good luck Senator Xenophon, big business wins in Australia. ALWAYS.

[Waghi Warrior]

I really think this is coming back to bite you guys on the arse,not that I'm blaming anyone as such.

When these airlines started demanding recruits to have a type rating,that's when things went down hill. I think Impulse might have even been the first airline in Australia to do this.

This led to the situation where experienced pilots like myself,said bugger the industry in Australia and left for another country. It's a sad case of affairs as myself and just about every other Aussie pilot flying overseas would dearly love to come back and fly in our home country,but we simply can't afford to,due to lower wages,and having to in some cases pay for another type rating just to get a job,regardless of our experience. This is the main reason why Australian pilots are so popular with a large number of the major international airlines throughout the world,and in reality it's a huge loss to the aviation industry in Australia. That's life and sadly it's not going to change,well in my lifetime anyway.

The concrete has already set "HARD AND PROPER".

Post edit: Forgot to mention,funny that all these problems are related to budget airlines in most cases,that certainly say's something !

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Whilst there are alot of feel good "pilot unity" type posts here, I really do not understand how pilots from other operators would see it in their interest to support the JPC, even if they had appeared as a blip on the RADAR.

From what I can see there must be a great amount of apathy within the organisation, towards the organisation and towards each other.

Personally I believe, any QF pilot that offers support, be it financial or emotional assistance to this group, will be doing so at their own demise.

In previous posts I have offered my personal low opinion towards this culture and those within it to the readers of pprune, have stopped only marginally short of using the "S" word to describe my view of their actions, no response from the effected parties, intelligent or otherwise.

Why would any of you honourable, intelligent and morally just individuals posting here assist our morally corrupt counterparts, let them fend for themselves, they have done nothing to help us, quite the opposite infact.

[Waghi Warrior]

Why would any of you honourable, intelligent and morally just individuals posting here assist our morally corrupt counterparts, let them fend for themselves, they have done nothing to help us, quite the opposite infact.

100% on that comment,especially in relation to the last few words.

[Roller Merlin]

Joe's article is back up on the National Times (with pics)

Up, up and away, but not in Australia (http://www.nationaltimes.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/up-up-and-away-but-not-in-australia-20101008-16bc1.html)

[Chimbu chuckles]

Personally I believe, any QF pilot that offers support, be it financial or emotional assistance to this group, will be doing so at their own demise.

In previous posts I have offered my personal low opinion towards this culture and those within it to the readers of PPRuNe, have stopped only marginally short of using the "S" word to describe my view of their actions, no response from the effected parties, intelligent or otherwise.

Why would any of you honourable, intelligent and morally just individuals posting here assist our morally corrupt counterparts, let them fend for themselves, they have done nothing to help us, quite the opposite infact.

Gee, SDT, last I looked the current JPC was populated, in its entirety, by AIPA members.

I am struggling to understand how that isn't a conflict of interest. Maybe it isn't...but who is REALLY pulling the strings behind the scenes at the JPC?

Taking a global view of this entire ****fight I find myself asking which pilot group is REALLY being attacked here - it certainly isn't the J* pilots, or the Sunstate pilots.

That just leaves the QF mainline pilots.

I could certainly accept the premise that they perceive THEIR T&Cs are threatened by QF management.

The vast majority of posters on these type of threads, for years now, purport to be mainline pilots and to a man they all demand everyone else forgo employment opportunities to protect THEIR T&Cs.

Unity! they call from the ramparts.

We see constant reference to the industrial provenance of the senior J* management pilots - there are lots of ex AN 89ers and some 'others' - the mainline guys conveniently forget that Q Dom is heavily populated with the same subcategory, 'others'.

QF pilots split from AFAP and then didn't support AFAP in 89 and have repeatedly displayed an utter lack of regard for other pilots within the QF Group...didn't want to know about Impulse pilots.

But brothers this is all ancient history. Put it behind us and lets move forward united.

I ask myself which is the ONLY pilot group not actively fighting for QF mainline T&Cs?

I see 1 group prodding another with a long sharp stick but I don't see them actually doing a whole helluva lot else.

Why on earth would a group of pilots who have experienced enormous gains in T&Cs in an airline that is expanding rapidly and offering them not only a very good lifestyle/work mix, and career advancement, but opportunities to experience other cultures and types of operation, while maintaining their basing and seniority within their current operation, WANT or NEED to have a November to Remember?

What has happened in the last 4 years in J* that would explain a group of pilots getting so worked up that a couple of them feel SO strongly that they do stuff that leads to their sacking?

This just doesn't happen in a pilot group experiencing explosive growth in pay and rapid promotion.

Are there mysterious dark forces acting in the background?

This is like watching the Cold War - the main protagonists never fight each other but there is near constant proxy wars being fought in little 3rd world countries.

[Capt Kremin]

CC, normally I look forward to your posts but you just have set, IMHO, a new low for failure to see the big picture, and dragging up of irrelevant ancient history for no reason other than display your bitterness.

I could go on but you just lost me forever with that piece of dissembling dross.:ugh::ugh:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Me bitter?

Nope I don't have a dog in this fight - never applied to QF (despite father being a mainline pilot) or J*.

Been an expat for near on 25 years.

Watching this from a distance though I feel like I am watching the 89 wars all over again - which I did from Wau in PNG.

I have lost you? How about you address what I have written rather than just grace me with your disdain and leave.

I have posted what I perceive to be the situation from a far and unemotional distance...If I am wrong convince me.

Have you other examples of a company like J* where the pilots were in an uproar?

Why didn't the mainline guys have a November to Remember?

Or Sunstate pilots?

The big picture?

What that maybe the J* pilots will be next in this tireless war against pilots T&Cs/race to the bottom? Maybe - but then I would expect J* pilots to fight that battle not demand that Rex pilots destroy their careers on a promise from perfect strangers.

Or that some how this ****fight in J* will lead to them being offered mainline T&Cs?

Never going to happen.

[Going Boeing]

Posted by Chimbu chuckles
Taking a global view of this entire ****fight I find myself asking which pilot group is REALLY being attacked here - it certainly isn't the J* pilots, or the Sunstate pilots.

That just leaves the QF mainline pilots.

If you can't see that Jetstar pilots (along with the entire Airline Pilot profession) are under attack by this plan to have flying done by lower paid pilots working for an offshore shelf company then you are industrially naive.

Like CK, I usually enjoy your posts but you've lost the plot with your recent ones.

[Keg]

Chimbu Chuck. There are some points you raise in your post that need a response.

1. '89 was 21 years ago. The current AIPA exec are all about the 20-25 year mark in QF. I'd suggest that AIPA actions of '89 are the last thing on their mind given that these days. Even back in '89 they were all S/Os looking at F/O promotion at the time (which incidentally was stagnant from about '90 through to mid '94) and so would have had little to do with the decision making of that time.

We can delve into why the split occurred if you like (but I don't think the AFAP is going to come up smelling like roses in that discussion) and we can talk about why AIPA didn't join in the '89 dispute (I don't think the AFAP is going to look real great in that discussion either) but given that nearly 2/3 of QF crew have joined AIPA since that year I don't think it's particularly relevant to what is occurring now.

2. QF pilots... have repeatedly displayed an utter lack of regard for other pilots within the QF Group...didn't want to know about Impulse pilots.

That's long been up for dispute. The version of events reported to QF pilots is that the Impulse Pilots Council rebuffed AIPA. The JPC under Rick Heaton certainly did.

3. Damn straight this is about unity. Looking at Qrewroom right now I can see that there are at least 20 mainline pilots who have donated money to support Joe Eakin. Some of them have committed to regular payments. I know of at least three others who have committed to regular payments who have not publicly advertised the fact.

I must admit to not knowing what your post is about. You demonise QF pilots for not joining AFAP on a doomed adventure in '89 and you doom them for the perception that QF pilots left Impulse pilots to potentially wither on the vine. Now that QF pilots stand by J* pilots to work to improve their lot (something that you wished we'd done previously) you now question the motives. You can't have it both ways on this.

Like both Captain Kremin and Going Boeing I normally enjoy your posts but your posts about the relationship between QF pilots and J* pilots has been off the mark for some time now.

Hope you're well.

[Sand dune Sam]

Chimbu at the end of the day, there has been antagonists on both side of the fence, there were the QF mainline guys who despised Impulse pilots, and there were Impulse pilots who couldnt have given a rats about mainline guys, they wanted the flying, and they didnt care what they did to get it.

Getting back to the main gist of the thread, I think we all agree that Joe has done an admirable thing by putting his own neck on the chopping block, the guy has shown more back bone than his mates at the top of the Jetstar seniority list...good on him for trying to instill some dignity back into the airline pilot profession..

The late 80's and early 90's spawned the likes of the Impulses's and National Jets, introducing paying for type ratings, bonds, bank guarentees, no one really gave a rats at the time as pilot jobs in Ansett and Qantas were hard to come by, if you stapled a $50 cheque to your application form and had $7,000 spare for a 1900 rating, you got a job with Impulse, or if you knew the right people, you got a job with National Jet..

I think its time we put it all behind us, the industry is looking bouyant again, we have seen AIPA and VIPA join forces, we need negotiators in our respective affiliations that can negotiate with integrity, respect and in a non-confrontational way, yet reminding the respective airline HR departments of the role of an airline pilot, the price we paid to get where we are today and remain where we are and the responsibilities of our role.

We have only taken this nose dive in conditions because we have allowed it, we have allowed the respect and dignity of the profession to be eroded by people with HR degrees that have no respect for us..If we have strong negotiators in our affiliations, and if we as a pilot group get behind them as a unified group instead of splinter groups undermining the cause, then we will see change i'm sure..:ok:

[biton]

Chimbu, I do respect you and I don't work at Jetstar but that line about "maintaining their basing" had me rolling all over the floor laughing. Can you tell that to my mate who has had four, yes FOUR base changes in as many years at Jetstar? Or what about my other mate who had to relocate his family after they shut the Adelaide base? Or what about the guy I know who left a European operator to take a Cairns base with Jetstar only to be told a few months after he started that he was off to Darwin (he subsequently left to fly a kingair instead)? Are you seeing a trend here? Maybe these guys are sick to death of pineapples. You're right on one score, you are out of the loop, best you sit this one out.

[Jabawocky]

Sam

As an outsider I am interested to learn more about this bit.........
the guy has shown more back bone than his mates at the top of the Jetstar seniority listAnd who/what is it you are elluding to?

we have allowed the respect and dignity of the profession to be eroded by people with HR degrees that have no respect for us..If we have strong negotiators in our affiliations, and if we as a pilot group get behind them as a unified group instead of splinter groups undermining the cause
Well done :D

And this bit is the a summary of all industrial turmoil, get back to fair honest valuable work negotiated in an intelligent manner, something that the pilots of this country have been rather poor at.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I agree with you, SDS, about protagonists on both sides.

I don't agree with much else on this or like threads.

Posters who wish to deny the broad sweep of post WW2 Pilot industrial relations history sound to me like Global Warming Alarmists who suggest 1998 was the hottest year EVER while ignoring the Medieval Warm Period. Likewise many posters sound like Greenies trying to heard everyone towards their (utterly unrealistic) idea of Utopia.

I am going to suggest that if you don't understand the last 65 years of pilot industrial relations you will struggle to keep what is going on NOW in context.

Its a (truly) sad economic fact that when REAL wages go up employment goes down. I don't like it but there it is...and it really just IS.

If the only jet pilot wage scale in Australia was the QF mainline T&Cs J*/VB/NJS/Tiger et al simply wouldn't exist. But don't think the same number of pilots would ALL be flying QF mainline aircraft. QF wouldn't be a whole lot bigger than it is now because fewer people would be able to afford the airfares.

So when QF pilots demand everyone hold out for mainline T&Cs they are, PROBABLY unknowingly, actually calling for less employment.

Sounds pretty selfish in that context doesn't it?

For 10 years now in this place we have watched one pilot group after another attacked in turn as the destroyers of our industry - the next lot of people leading the charge downwards. Without exception that vitriol has come FROM QF mainline pilots and been aimed at, in turn, NJS/VB/J*/Jet Connect and Tiger.

I may have missed it but I don't remember a single instance of QF mainline pilots carrying out protected industrial action against what they perceive as the Great Satan.

Why is that - is it because you would have looked utterly fcking stupid downing tools to stop other people accepting employment in legal entities that are really none of your business?

Because thats really what it boils down to - the equivalent of going on strike because EK is taking flying you deem YOURS and inhibiting your career as a result.

I do remember AIPA joining forces with outside interests and saving QF (group) from the utter lunacy of the sale of QF to those c@%$ from the US - you should be very proud of that - YOU guys DID help save Qantas from utter destruction at the hands of corporate greed.:D

But I don't remember a lot else that uplifted me.

The sort of unity being espoused by Gen Y (and people like Keg who should be old enough to know better) is utopian BS. It has never existed, will never exist and could never exist. People have NEVER lived in the woods in harmony with nature - it was always a grim fight to survive.

As I said in a previous post you may not like all of this - I don't care one way or another - but that doesn't make it wrong/bad/immoral or any other adjective you chose.

I'll return to the main point of my previous post and ask again - WTF has happened in J* in the last 4-5 years that justifies all this angst?

When has there EVER been a large part of a pilot body ripping its employer, and itself, to pieces while enjoying impressive growth in wages and career opportunities?

Where is the evidence that J* is any less safe than any other airline - QF mainline as an example?

What is AIPA's input into the current JPC?

Emotions are running VERY high at the moment - and the first victim of emotion is rational thought.

['holic]

Gee, well let's see
I am going to suggest that if you don't understand the last 65 years of pilot industrial relations you will struggle to keep what is going on NOW in context.I am going to suggest to you that this, and '89 in particular, has sweet F A to do with the current situation. As has been repeated ad nauseum, the majority of current mainline pilots weren't even in the company in '89.

So when QF pilots demand everyone hold out for mainline T&Cs they are, PROBABLY unknowingly, actually calling for less employment.

Sounds pretty selfish in that context doesn't it?Once again, as repeatedly stated, if the difference between Jetstar's operation being profitable or not is the difference in pilots' salary (and it's not that much BTW) then the whole thing is pretty marginal and not sustainable. If you believe that, your believing management BS.

For 10 years now in this place we have watched one pilot group after another attacked in turn as the destroyers of our industry - the next lot of people leading the charge downwards. Without exception that vitriol has come FROM QF mainline pilots and been aimed at, in turn, NJS/VB/J*/Jet Connect and Tiger.Yep, this is another recurring theme you see in a lot of posts. So by your logic the JPC should be advocating accepting pilots from outside J* to come and fill the positions in SIN on lesser T&Cs. Let me know how you go convincing them with that one.

Because thats really what it boils down to - the equivalent of going on strike because EK is taking flying you deem YOURS and inhibiting your career as a result.Err .. no. EK is not part of the Qantas group and we have absolutely no influence over it. Are you able to see the difference there?

I think one of the things that has really got up mainline pilot's noses is that up until now, when we've said we would like to work together with J* pilot's we've been stonewalled (and I'm happy to be corrected with that impression). The way I see it there is not one argument applied 5 years ago in the Qantas vs Jetstar debate that cannot be applied today in the Jetstar vs Jetstar SIN debate.

[psycho joe]

impressive growth in wages and career opportunities?



Shirley you can't be serious? :hmm:

[Gnadenburg]

Chimbu you were horribly wrong on the GFC and I reckon your out of whack here too. :O

A DEC C&Ter accepting employment at Impulse on the 717 was paid 90k with a one page contract - no overtime etc. 7 years later through diligent and mature negotiations undertaken in good faith that same individual can earn triple that early wage under an EBA that, even AIPA acknowledged, is VERY good. The most junior FO at J* now earned more than the most senior C&Ter did just a few years before and with command prospects measured in years rather than decades.

But is anybody hailing the JPC (of the day) and the J* pilot group generally as worthy of praise?



The above a doozy. The Impulse pilots provided cheap services ( and training standards ), well below the incumbents. And were rapidly expanded as an industrial weapon. Their pay rises were not in good faith at all. Again, they low balled, at a guess, due professional insecurity.

So they introduced low pay and low standards. The latter, has given the airlines the ability to circumvent supply and demand, by having not to invest professionally in an individual the same way other airlines would.

Impulse pilots have been major enablers of a race to the bottom.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Once again, as repeatedly stated, if the difference between Jetstar's operation being profitable or not is the difference in pilots' salary (and it's not that much BTW) then the whole thing is pretty marginal and not sustainable. If you believe that, your believing management BS.

No actually its not management BS. Thanks to politicians inflating our currencies to near worthlessness the cost of just about EVERYTHING is going up at a rate far in excess of wages. The ONLY thing management can control is labour costs. I find that just as distasteful as anyone but there it is. It will only be fixed when we put all the pollies and economists up against a wall and shoot them.

At some point in the wages vs productivity curve J* would cease to exist - the vast majority of J*'s customers used to either not travel as much or went via inter state bus or they drove. They didn't travel on mainline at the drop of a hat. This weekend my daughter and her fella are going to Sydney, probably on J*, for about $90 each return - they simply would not be flying if the only option was QF Domestic or the TAA/AN of old.

J*/VB etc have grown the pie - there are a LOT more pilots enjoying good careers now than 10 years ago - and if you think J* isn't a good job in its own right you're delusional.

EK and J* Singapore ARE functionally identical - ultimate ownership is, legally, simply irrelevant.

One question QF pilots could legitimately demand answers to is why have QF management meekly allowed EK to build such an enormous brand presence in Australia - why hasn't QF expanded and captured some of that work between Oz and Europe through DXB with the/a QF premium brand?

Nothing was stopping him (Dixon), short of being a clueless moron. EK is most assuredly NOT a LCC.

Yep, this is another recurring theme you see in a lot of posts. So by your logic the JPC should be advocating accepting pilots from outside J* to come and fill the positions in SIN on lesser T&Cs. Let me know how you go convincing them with that one.

I am absolutely certain I couldn't convince the current JPC that night follows day. I find that the JPC thinks they should have any input astounding. That there is the current deal is amazing given J* Sin IS as much of a separate legal entity as SQ. You might ponder the kind of management that seeks the deal they currently have - I find it difficult to condemn them.

That IS the legal situation and that IS how management sees it and if you cannot accept that then there is little hope for you ever having any credibility with the people who employ you.

Do you think having credibility with your employer is important?

Do I think the J* Sin deal is great? No I think it sucks. Its disgraceful in fact - but neither do I find it surprising that J* management would start with a low ball offer and see what happened. Do you expect them to unilaterally offer CX A scale as a starting point?

That is not how the Free Market works. If it wasn't for the free market most of us wouldn't be in aviation careers to begin with.

I have spent 25 years working in countries with ZERO meaningful employment/labour laws and truly 'evil' management has been VERY much the exception to the rule - to hear you lot tell it that is the only kind that exists in Australia.

So I'll ask again - what has happened in J* in the last few years that justifies Joe Eakins nailing himself to a cross and destroying his career?

You asking me to believe its just over J* Singapore?

For people he either doesn't know/has never met and may not even be Australian?

And make no mistake - unlike the other chap who pulled a fake sicky and was caught/sacked but who has remained anonymous Joe has probably actually ended his career.

Joe for reasons I cannot fathom has put himself in a situation WAY beyond his control. He is being held up by you lot as some sort of messiah when, in reality, he has just been a silly little boy.

I have watched for 4+ years as a proportion of the J* pilot group has wound themselves up in a frenzy over fck all. I have seen it before and it often ends this way - a bunch of people sitting around whinging at each other about how unfair 'it' all is. The classic 'conflict spiral' we hear about in CRM - and then someone does something REALLY dumb.

People who have NOT lost their jobs are STILL prodding him out the front as some sort of spokesmen for 'the movement', like some sort of ghoulish cheer squad. What his REAL mates should have done is tell him to back off.

That poor dumb fck!

Edit for Gnads et al.

It remains to be seen whether I am wrong about the GFC as it pertains to Oz - I was spot on about the world (and there are people who will back me up on that):ok:

If you think going from circa 90k to circa 270-290k (real actual numbers) in several years is not 'impressive' then it aint me who is confused about the meaning of the word.

Lowered standards?

Care to give some examples that don't pertain equally to the whole industry?

[Lookleft]

Ok CC I'll bite. If you are wondering what has got the pilot group up in arms then try this:

- no holidays available for school holidays Christmas or Easter
- no base security for wide body or narrow body. If they view that their financial interest is better served by moving a wide-body from Sydney to Cairns stuff the effect that it has on the individual
- No transparency on payslips for allowances or overtime
- Basing VH aircraft in Singapore and paying less than the EBA while at the same time stating that they will be setting up a shelf company to employ other Jetstar Group pilots in Australia.
- Workplace bullying by sending out emails stating that they have dismissed fulltime employees before they have even told the individual.

BTW unless you are stealing flying from your fellow pilots not too many jetstar line pilots are pulling in 270-290k.

[Led Zeppelin]

CC

He is being held up by you lot as some sort of messiah when, in reality, he has just been a silly little boy.

The classic 'conflict spiral' we hear about in CRM - and then someone does something REALLY dumb.

It's a self fullfilling prophecy with these guys - Leemings and jumping off the cliff comes to mind.

And no-one should forget that the "mainline self interest" QF centric group which runs AIPA has previous form with J* - or has every one forgotten the times not so long past when an AIPA president and his cronies attacked the J* pilot group at every opportunity.:mad:

AIPA is using J* pilots as cannon fodder - REAL mates would have told him (JE)to ease off. He might still have had a job today.:ugh:

Think about it.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

What Joe has done may keep you in a job tomorrow.

Think about it.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Lookleft and bookit (sorry I missed your post)

Ok CC I'll bite. If you are wondering what has got the pilot group up in arms then try this:

- no holidays available for school holidays Christmas or Easter
- no base security for wide body or narrow body. If they view that their financial interest is better served by moving a wide-body from Sydney to Cairns stuff the effect that it has on the individual
- No transparency on payslips for allowances or overtime
- Basing VH aircraft in Singapore and paying less than the EBA while at the same time stating that they will be setting up a shelf company to employ other Jetstar Group pilots in Australia.
- Workplace bullying by sending out emails stating that they have dismissed fulltime employees before they have even told the individual.

BTW unless you are stealing flying from your fellow pilots not too many jetstar line pilots are pulling in 270-290k


No xmas/easter holidays for anyone ever or just YOU didn't get what YOU want? It might surprise you to learn that we are in the business of taking people on THEIR holidays. If I get xmas off 1 time in 5 I feel lucky. Its the nature of the beast....it works on seniority...if you don't like it leave the industry.

Base security? Yeah I know moving is a pain...believe me it gets harder as you get older...but again its the nature of our industry and many others. I have been in the same house the last 7 years - by FAR the longest time in any one place in the last 25.

If they need to move an aeroplane to another base where it can get better utilisation so it can make money and pay everyones wages what do you expect them to do?

Once again it falls into the category of "Don't like it? Vote with your feet" because it will NEVER be different. Or you could join EK - like my airline they have only 1 base...but you'll be living in DXB (not your average wife's idea of paradise) doing 900 hrs/annum ultra long haul (you think you have been fatigued? You don't know ****) for no more $ in your bank account than now. Your choice I guess.

As far as temping in Singapore is concerned if an A320 Capt/FO based Sydney bids for a Sin slot he comes back 2 years later to his same seat in Sydney. Fact.

bookit your mate resigned from a jet job to fly a Kingair rather than be based in Darwin - is he a bit 'slow'? Hell I don't want to fly silly French light twins either - but I'd rather that than RFDS:ok:

If they cock up your payslip from time to time ring them up and very nicely point out what YOU think is the mistake and if you're correct sit back and it will arrive in your bank account - you're one of how many 1000s of employees? Are you perfect?

I have covered J* Sin - like it or lump it.

As far as BB's effort to set up a a shelf company to screw you all over - remind me again how many days it took for the dill to be told that was ILLEGAL and that ended it?

If they have sent out such emails that is disgraceful - but was it an honest mistake or deliberate policy? Has it happened once or is it 'normal' practice - I would be prepared to bet it was an unfortunate error - although Human Remains are more than capable of these sorts of stuff ups regularly enough to make you wonder. Either way its the sort of issue that gets sorted in my experience - the dill who sends the emails eventually gets to send one to themselves.

Stealing flying from your fellow pilots? Are you taking the piss?

The J* EBA is written in such a way that if you want to work hard you get paid ****loads. If you like your roster set in stone not so much. Most people fall somewhere in between those extremes with some variation from time to time.

So if Pilot A says YES to extra flying 7 times out of 10 and Pilot B says yes 3 times out of 10 who do you think the stressed and harassed short term schedulers will call first when they need a pilot? By your logic pilot A is 'stealing flying' from pilot B?

Are you really as dim as you sound?

I am still to see what it is you Gen Y folk are so stirred up about - apart from, it seems, life just aint living up to your preconceptions.

Better harden up - it doesn't get better.

[Sand dune Sam]

Chimbu.....well mate, that pretty well sums it up!!

[Clockwork Doll]

I am still to see what it is you Gen Y folk are so stirred up about - apart from, it seems, life just aint living up to your preconceptions.


Chimbu - thank you! With the one exception in your earlier post in which you state the SIN deal sucks (read OYY1 post of actual figures) you are the most sensible and reasoned person on this whole damn site. It's good to know that not every pilot believes that management's sole purpose in life is to ruin him. That perhaps in fact their job is to keep the airline running so that the pilot actually has a job to complain about...

[balance]

Chimbu, unfortunately, the use of your logic is why we are scurrying down this road that leads us to awful pay and working conditions, and probably a tragic outcome in terms of lives.

There is a principle involved here. You arent standing up for that principle. You are arguing against it and saying "if you dont like it, vote with your feet". Well, with respect sir, I'd rather stand up and be counted rather than run like a hyena to try to look after number one.

And clockwork doll, also with respect, you are wrong. Management is out to ruin the pilots lot. It's their job. Cut costs at any cost. Short term vision for short term goals. I said this in this forum recently, but I'll ask you again - "What price one life?"

[DutchRoll]

I am still to see what it is you Gen Y folk are so stirred up about - apart from, it seems, life just aint living up to your preconceptions.Ah of course. It's all Gen Y's fault. How on earth did I miss that?

And when I was young it was the Gen Xers like myself who were clueless and wanted everything for nothing.

And when my father was a boy, it was the baby-boomers who had no respect and didn't know the meaning of hard work.

......and so the meaningless and useless generational blame-game continues.

That perhaps in fact their job is to keep the airline running so that the pilot actually has a job to complain about...
Ah, so that would be why Dixon and Jackson tried to sell Qantas to a private equity firm which subsequently went into bankruptcy, right? I get it.......I think.

[tiger19]

Chimbu.....whats that saying about dieing on ones feet instead of living on ones knees???

[Hans Solo]

Hmmm,
Well Chuck, if J* need a new PR man, I think you may well be first in line for the position!!
Your posts normally appear well thought out and balanced, but I've got to say, you seem to be on a bit of a mission with this one.
I think you're giving the company to much credit for being incompetent rather than intentionally malicious.
In my experience (2.5 decades in aviation, so I'm very much not Gen Y), all these little "errors" committed by companies such as these are very much deliberate, and whilst fairly insignificant on their own, they do add up when all put together, and serve as a reminder as to "Who is Boss".
The good companies I have worked with, by and large, do not treat people in this manner (with the possible exception of some middle managers, but you're never gonna get perfection, no matter where you go.)
I think the J* guys bought a lot of this on themselves when they signed up to the crap remuneration they were offered in the first place, but that does'nt mean that J* dont have a case to answer in the way they continue to shaft people.
Try to put aside the minor issues and look at the big picture, there are some basic principles involved and we should be standing up for them, not running away (or voting with ones feet).

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

You been drinkin SP?

I wish. Just a bit busy.

The ACTU Executive yesterday passed a unanimous motion of support for Joe (mentioned by name) and others under fire atm. I will start a new thread on it when I get the word version through.

[Jabawocky]

Hold on guys....... stop for a minute.

This thread was about Joe Eakins and his article, which has subsequently been the cause of his sacking. Hence the BRAVE or what title?

I personally do not think the JQ wages for pilots is all that bad. I do think the fine print is a bit draconian, but it is what it is.

The fact of the matter is his articles were not about the current EBA's and his deal. It was about the future trend of the industry and how the recent actions of BB and AJ were in conflict with each other.

Basically Joe Eakins has been sacked for pointing out the irony of the senior management’s own public statements about company direction.

He did not go public with information which was "Commercial in Confidence". Big difference.

Maybe everyone on here needs to read the article again and see where this debate is getting off the rails.

Up, up and away, but not in Australia (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/up-up-and-away-but-not-in-australia-20101008-16bc1.html)

J* have found out the hard way about setting up illegal shelf companies, and they have also found out the hard way with recruiting in NZ and had to pay hefty sums of cash to plug the holes. So they are getting the message albeit slowly.

This started out as someone speaking out about the future in Australian airlines and how JQ were going to try something clever and failed. In the end Eakins has been sacked for publically pointing out the contradiction made in public by management.

[balance]

Yup, well said Jabs. So back to the thread.

The silence thus far has been deafening in relation to both the Jetstar Pilot Council, and Jetstar pilots on this BB. Why is that? Why no support for a colleague trying to look after YOUR interests?

Jestar pilots? Yoohoo? Where are you?

[Normasars]

And once again I will say

PILOT UNITY IN THIS COUNTRY IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. PILOTS HERE CAN'T HELP BUT HANG **** ON EACH OTHER. SELF DESTRUCTION AS A GROUP.

Sad, but true.

[Roger Greendeck]

Brave but stupid. I understand why some are ready to support Joe but this is a business where we are playing for sheep stations and it is naive to believe that a company wont take action for such a public bagging. Having said that, for those on the inside of the industry if you feel strongly enough make a submission to the Senate enquiry. I would check with a lawyer first but it is my understanding that you are covered by parliamentary immunity so there is less chance of come back. I note that there are some submission with the authors details not publicly disclosed. So put up or...

[Lookleft]

I love it when expats start telling those of us who have chosen to stay here to harden up.

No xmas/easter holidays for anyone ever or just YOU didn't get what YOU want? It might surprise you to learn that we are in the business of taking people on THEIR holidays. If I get xmas off 1 time in 5 I feel lucky. Its the nature of the beast....it works on seniority...if you don't like it leave the industry.

Not available for anyone, fullstop, blocked out, can't bid for it regardless of seniority.

Base security? Yeah I know moving is a pain...believe me it gets harder as you get older...but again its the nature of our industry and many others. I have been in the same house the last 7 years - by FAR the longest time in any one place in the last 25.

If they need to move an aeroplane to another base where it can get better utilisation so it can make money and pay everyones wages what do you expect them to do?

I expect them to honour their obligations when they state that a pilot will be based in MEL for eg then shortly after state that in fact they have changed their mind and now will be based in DN then continue to have crews overnight and have those based in DN sitting around on STBY. If it was about keeping the company afloat there would be no protest but it is about short term greed. Grown up airlines accept that crews need to be overnighted, its all part of the airline business.

As far as temping in Singapore is concerned if an A320 Capt/FO based Sydney bids for a Sin slot he comes back 2 years later to his same seat in Sydney. Fact.

As J* have proved its only a fact at the time its stated. They will change their mind if its "important for the business to remain profitable" (management speak for stuff you my bonus is under threat).

Stealing flying from your fellow pilots? Are you taking the piss?

The J* EBA is written in such a way that if you want to work hard you get paid ****loads. If you like your roster set in stone not so much. Most people fall somewhere in between those extremes with some variation from time to time.

How about Captains flying as F/Os when F/Os are sitting on STBY. Or the one about the pilot on holiday sitting in a hotel in DN taking flying off those who are based there and not reaching the overtime limit.

I know where SW replacement will come from.

This is why Joe spoke out. Enough is enough and he wanted to make public some of what the company was doing. The fact that they dismissed him rather than taking a less provocative course of action shows in what direction their HR policies are going.

[flyingins]

Plenty of comment about the JPC and its perceived silence on the matter. Let me explain a little.

Publically, yes they are silent. Why? Unlike AIPA or the AFAP, the JPC is an un-resgistered, un-insured body of volunteer pilots. Its existence, although guaranteed in the EBA, is almost entirely at the whim of management in that it relies on the company for the allocation of days off to meet and the provision of flights to a central location for members outside of Melbourne. Further, each of the JPC flies a full roster every month.

Therefore, by publically speaking out against the airline, not only do the JPC face the same fate as Joe Eakins, they also face the very real prospect of being allocated ZERO resources to do the job they have volunteered to do. In fact, it is not a prospect anymore. They are already allocated ZERO resources to do this job.

Why?

Because the present JPC and its immediate predecessor adopted a stance against the industrial direction of Jetstar Airways and instead in full support of the Pilot's Agreement and the needs and rights of not only the Jetstar pilot body but the Australian airline industry as a whole. This has included extended efforts to formalise all communications (no backroom deals), define consultation (presently viewed as "company talks, pilots accept without argument"), protect seniority (hence the "Right of Return" case in FWA) and involve the pilot body in the decision-making process (guardians of the agreement without the right to tamper with it un-invited).

Also, the JPC has at all times been against the formation of JQNZ, JQ SIN and any out-sourcing of work and mixing of crews on different contracts in the same flight-deck.

Now more than ever before, but certainly at least since June of 2009, the JPC has been performing in the role Jetstar's pilots deserve; not as a rubber-stamp but instead as an advocate of the pilot body.

I have no doubt that the JPC supports Joe Eakins and is against the way in which Jetstar is behaving. By not speaking out publically on the matter they are not only protecting thier own employment, but also remaining "in the game" in their efforts to change the way Jetstar treats its pilots.

[Kangaroo Court]

If Pay For Training hadn't been part of the norm' for a Jetstar pilot this never would have been dreamed of by QF management. Pay For Training is a scam that should be outlawed.

It's "publicly", by the way; what on earth happened to the standard of education within our ranks?

[balance]

Thanks for explaining that flying, I'm sure there is a lot of stuff there that most of us didn't know.

It seems to me though from what you say, that the very existance of the JPC is irrelevant, and the organisation serves no purpose, other than to be obsequious. To have some sort of teeth, or to be taken seriously industrially speaking, one must be a part of an organisation capable of being heard. Sounds to me like they werent "in the game" in the first place.

AFAP and AIPA being those organisations, but even as I'm writing this I realise the irony contained therein. The AFAP is almost NEVER in any media spotlight. Gotta shake my head and wonder at these guys naivety.

No wonder that Jetstar pilots negotiated such crap in the first instance. Any Jetstar pilot who now refuses to join AIPA should probably have a good long think about where they stand. I'm certain that will be a controversial statement, and about time I dive for the bunker!

[The Kelpie]

The Senate Enquiry yesterday seemed very interested in what the cadet schemes cost!

The Senate Committee specifically asked the question, and Rex told them that they charge $88,000 for the zero to RHS Saab 340.

Wonder how Jetstar and Oxford will justify to Senate charging circa $180,000 for essentially the same deal (albeit different endorsements)?

Jetstar and Oxford (and CTC for that matter) seem to be gouging the system. How can CTC and Oxford apparently charge more or less exactly the same cost despite being totally different business entities? Co-incidence? - Sounds like the prices have been artificially fixed to me.

Also I hope that Jetstar cough up to the fact that they are charging cadets circa $40,000 for the line training carried out in their own aircraft whilst on regular passenger carrying operations (ie at no cost to them) but because it is paid for through Oxford Aviation they feel they can legitimately charge for it!

More to come once I have been able to establish the facts!!!

The Kelpie

[Jack Ranga]

Joe has spoken publically on an issue that's maybe a moral one, probably not based on law (on what Jetstar can or cannot do legally). That he has the gumption to speak out on issue that he believes in should be applauded. Some call him stupid but I know who I'd rather have sitting beside me in a cockpit (or have a beer with)

That some gutless individuals (who choose to live on their knees) who would never have the gumption to do what he has done, have the gall to critisise him, call him stupid........you are beneath contempt.

"It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees". Emiliano Zapata
Mexican reformer & revolutionary (1877 - 1919) Hear Hear Joe :ok:

[DutchRoll]

No wonder that Jetstar pilots negotiated such crap in the first instance. Any Jetstar pilot who now refuses to join AIPA should probably have a good long think about where they stand. I'm certain that will be a controversial statement, and about time I dive for the bunker! You shouldn't have to dive for the bunker, though PPrune is a somewhat notorious enclave for Type A personality cyber-bullies. You are quite correct that there's not much point in having representative bodies split all over the place for the one profession. Other professional organisations, representative bodies, unions, associations, and so on would be shaking their heads in disbelief.

Then there is that whole thing with certain members on the forum who are so badly hung-up on past events that it just obviously burns them to the core. And while they're forever looking at (and commenting about) the past, it is fixing the foreseeable future problems and issues which is what matters, and which is what this thread is about, and is what Joe Eakins comments were about, and is what his sacking is ultimately about.

['holic]

I thought that the JPC were now all members of AIPA? I seem to remember this being mentioned at the meeting the other month.

Yep, naivete sums it up in one word. For god's sake, join a union whether it's AIPA, AFAP or whoever, if only for the protection afforded if you are involved in an incident. Because sure as 5hit the company will hang you out to dry.

[John Citizen]

For god's sake, join a union whether it's AIPA, AFAP or whoever, if only for the protection afforded if you are involved in an incident. Because sure as 5hit the company will hang you out to dry.



I am getting tired off hearing these union scare tactics all the time.

I am happy to admit that I was involved in an incident and I WAS NOT left to hang out to dry by the company at all.

I have heard directly from management themselves, that if you make a mistake (:mad: up) and admit that you made a mistake ( ":mad:ed up"), you will not be in trouble.

The company was really good to me. I was stood down and lost some overtime but they actually made it up to me down the track. :ok:

['holic]

Glad to hear you had a good outcome, I'm feeling warm and fuzzy all over.

Without knowing the details of your incident, I'd suggest to you that while the company took a supportive role in your case they could just as easily take an adversarial approach, particularly if your incident resulted in bad publicity in the media.

Would a surgeon operate without medical insurance?

[CaptCloudbuster]

Chimbu C contends

If the only jet pilot wage scale in Australia was the QF mainline T&Cs J*/VB/NJS/Tiger et al simply wouldn't exist. ........ QF wouldn't be a whole lot bigger than it is now because fewer people would be able to afford the airfares.

and that Jet * Captains earn

circa 270-290k (real actual numbers)


Lets assume a "fat cat" QF legacy Captain lazily earns $350 000.

$60 000 pa extra divided by 900 hrs = $66 per hour

$66 divided by 250 pax = 26 cents per pax per hour

Is it really your contention our industry depends on lower pilot wages as people will choose not to travel because of an impost of $1.82 per 7 hr flight !

[Chimbu chuckles]

Depends what segment of the market you're talking about. It remains the case that at some point increasing real wages reduces employment. I don't like it but that doesn't stop me accepting the economic reality of it. One segment of our potential customer base happily pays for their own executive jet and the other end will get on a bus if the airfares rise more than X%.

You going to try and tell us that if every pilot was on mainline T&Cs there would be as many pilots flying jets in Oz?

That DOES NOT mean there can't be more pilots on mainline T&Cs - just not in J*/VB/Tiger. I'd love to see QF mainline expand just as much as the FOs there would.

So I still haven't heard anyone come up with a good reason why a proportion of the JQ pilots are climbing the walls and banging their heads on the ceiling?

Aspects of the industry or individual human nature that are as old as the industry don't cut it.

Live on my knees?

Nope...couldn't be further from the truth - if you knew me and what I have done over the years you'd be mortified at that statement.

Some things are most assuredly worth fighting for.

Those J* pilots getting all worked up at the moment - let alone risking their careers - don't have a clue, in my opinion, how lucky they are.

When JQ attacks your EBA T&Cs, suggests pilots might like to share a room on overnights, or slash recurrent training, scare EBA staff into lower paid subsidiaries (like VB did) - if your CP tries to interfere with your fuel decisions - if your C&Ting department go rogue - if your traffic staff start trying to overload you secretly - your engineers are pressured to start pencil whipping defects...then I'll stand and applaud whatever actions you deem appropriate. I have seen all that over the course of a career.

One of the main reasons the 'unity' you all bang on about is illusory is things are nowhere near dire enough.

After WW2 the pilot market was flooded with truly experienced pilots - vastly more than the industry could absorb - how would you like to have been a freshly minted CPL in 1950 competing with ex wartime pilots for a job...any fcking job?

T&Cs in the 1950s and early 60s were TRULY DIRE. 100+ hrs a month of long days in a Dak/Anson interspersed with nights sharing a room in a tin shed with two army surplus cots off the side of some pub, or hangar, in an outback town. Low pay/not much in the way of leave/sick pay/super...don't like it? Fck off!

That united enough of the pilot workforce for long enough - and it took YEARS - to slowly drag the T&Cs to where they were in the 70s/80s.

That unity collapsed in '89.

Despite rampant inflation in the late 70s/early 80s (about 17%/annum) eating away at the purchasing power of wages (the reason they thought a 30% pay rise was justifiable - and I agree with them) domestic pilots T&Cs were still pretty bloody good compared to most Australians. Ask any pre 89 domestic pilot and if he gives you an honest answer you'll be amazed.

89 was much like now in many respects. A group of pilots were REALLY worked up (with some justification and prodding from dark forces). Their emotions took them WAY beyond rational and the rest is history. They misread the (changed) world around them. The AFAP leadership was not near as honest as you'd like them to be in that situation. Example? "We will not submit your resignations before having another meeting and voting on it" Pilots awoke the next morning, turned on the radio and discovered they had resigned en masse.

Unity collapsed because T&Cs were really not that dire to begin with - and the new individual contracts were better still.

There is not ONE company that went into the dispute that survives to this day by the way - for years after 1989 there were fewer pilots flying jet aircraft in Australia. I spent many more years in GA (having a ball) than I would have otherwise. The dispute ENDED a world wide pilot shortage of monumental proportions.

A large % of the senior captains in the industry now were junior FOs in 1989 - I was a freshly minted Twotter bush pilot - quite a few of my mates had only been FOs on F28s/F27s etc for 6 months after years in GA. They were VERY much like the FOs in J* today - young and industrially naive - and like young people more generally, convinced they can make the world a better place. They truly believed what they were told by their seniors, "Don't worry if we stick together we'll beat the bastards and save this industry for you and the pilots that come after you" type rhetoric.

The following years are seared in their memories and those of their families - what most suffered in the next 5 years makes a base change at J* look like a hard day at Kindy.

They look at what THEY have achieved for YOU in the last 5 years at J* and sit stunned at what they see going on around them.

Unity? Never going to happen on any of the issues I have seen put forth in the last few years.

Sacrifice a career? Sorry don't think so.

Don't get me wrong - if I was MR and JE came to my office tomorrow and apologised sincerely and asked for his job back I would be very tempted to put it down to impetuous youth - give him a long hard talking at - stick him back in the RHS and watch him closely for a few years. I can empathise with JE without agreeing with him. He's probably a great guy but I think he was VERY dumb to do what he did.

It has probably gone beyond that point.

I think I have put up with about enough vitriol aimed in my direction because I hold a different view to most of you. If you achieve a sense of higher calling/purpose by winding yourselves up into a frenzy and making yourselves look a bit silly, in my opinion, to your employer then so be it. If you don't think credibility with your employer and the general public is important if it ever gets to really important issues then you knock yourselves out.

Good luck and happy landings to you all...I have tried to give you a different perspective (and you might be amazed how many supportive PMs these posts have attracted - unity?). I am off back to Tiger Moth/PNG/C185 threads:ok:

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

The Executive of the Australian Council of Trade Unions unanimously passed the following motion of support this week for Joe and others. As a member of the Executive for 4 years now, it is the first time I have successfully raised a motion. I note that some posters on here don't appear to be too supportive but the entire union movement is behind him.



Executive resolution Wednesday, 1 December 2010



Aviation Industry Support Executive notes that Australian Pilot and union delegate Joe Eakins and six Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineers employed by Qantas Group companies have recently been dismissed or stood down from duty for raising safety issues on Qantas Group aircraft and activity undertaken as a union delegate. Additionally Qantas is currently seeking damages of up to $4.5 million dollars from nine individual TWU Officials for assisting baggage handlers who objected to working with labour hire employees who had not been given the appropriate AFP/ASIO clearances to work on Australian Airports.

The ACTU is concerned about any punitive action against Australian Aviation workers where they raise legitimate safety and security matters in the Aviation Industry, or because of their important responsibility as a union delegate. Executive resolves to support the Aviation unions in their endeavours to support the rights of workers to raise safety issues, and in particular the right of delegates to actively represent the concerns of members.

Australian unions want a safe, productive and secure aviation industry, and will continue to oppose actions that put airports, aircraft, lives and a billion dollar tourism industry at risk. The ACTU will consult with aviation unions to develop a collective response to these issues.

[Jack Ranga]

Personally I refuse to do business with unethical or immoral suppliers. It costs me more in the long run to supply my product and I probably lose some jobs because of it.

I donot take too much notice of economists etc, in the end a lot of people make decisions based on the above, they're the people I want to deal with.

I regularly make airfare decisions based on the values of the company, maintenance and pilot standards. Rarely do I pay the cheapest price. I wont be travelling on Jetstar as I find their corporate values, as reflected by Buchannan, repulsive.

It's a pity that people don't behave with a bit of integrity. Joe did and it will pay off for him, more than likely not in this putrid industry, but it will :ok:

[Sunfish]

Capt. Cloudbuster:

Lets assume a "fat cat" QF legacy Captain lazily earns $350 000.

$60 000 pa extra divided by 900 hrs = $66 per hour

$66 divided by 250 pax = 26 cents per pax per hour

Is it really your contention our industry depends on lower pilot wages as people will choose not to travel because of an impost of $1.82 per 7 hr flight !


No! No! No! You have got it bass ackwards! That is not how bean counters think!


Let me give you a purely theoretical Profit and Loss Statement:

Revenue..................$200,000,000

Less:

Fuel........................$40,000,000

Pilots and CC............$60,000,000

Maint. + Spares........$25,000,000

Other DOC's............$15,000,000
----------------------------------------

Contribution margin..$60,000,000

----------------------------------------

Corporate + Int. Tax.$48,000,000

----------------------------------------

Profit ......................$12,000,000

-----------------------------------------


Guess which the biggest cost is?

So the chief Muppet goes to the bean counter Muppet and says "If you can cut 10% out of crew costs, we will raise profits 50%!!!!"


.and away they go.....


Then of course there is the "serious money" concept: If I ask to borrow Five dollars off you, you will most likely say "Yes". If instead I asked you for Five Thousand, you would tell me to eff off. The difference is that one amount is trivial in our minds, the other is "serious money".

There would be people in QF who would be thinking: "Why should anyone who is not a board member or senior manager be paid $350,000 per annum? Nobody who is a mere employee should be paid THAT much!" ie: It's "too much" (ie serious) money.

We often see this behaviour in managers who start bonus schemes for employees, usually salesman. They expect that an average salesman will make $50,000 and then get another $30,000 in commissions which they are happy to pay.

The scheme works well until Joe Supersalesman lands a "Whale" of a client and instead of paying out $30,000 as a bonus/commission to Joe he is suddenly paying $500,000. The normal reaction for the boss is to then decide that $500,000 is "serious money", and either welsh on the deal, or cap the scheme or install a sliding scale to the general demoralisation of the sales force.

IBM studied this phenomenon in detail in the 1960's and realised what a danger it was to sales performance. They went against that trend and even organised parties to celebrate handing out million dollar bonuses to successful salesmen.

[Mstr Caution]

Jetstar backflips over pilot accusations (http://www.australianfrequentflyer.com.au/community/open-discussion/jetstar-backflips-over-pilot-accusations-7834.html)

Nothings changed since 2006.

Can't be critical of standards with this mob!

[Obie]

Isn't it a shame that we can't all be as crash hot as Chuck?!

[Jabawocky]

Obie, you should be playing the ball not the man :=

I have had some private debates with Chuck about this topic, and while I do not quite agree with 100% of what he says, he is mostly correct.

Going public and with your own name published was fecking DUMB. Thats what started this thread.

Another FACT, JQ Captain and F/O jobs are not that bad, and at no point did Joe Eakins say that they were bad, so stop bashing on about that.

It was all about "The future of Aviation Careers in Australia".

The JQ NZ deal is pathetic......... and they got the results, I think we all agree.

The SIN deal no better, and the dodgy company deal failed before it got legs.

So some folk are being a little naive.

Like most things, the truth of the matter is somewhere inbetween the opposite sides of the arguement.

By coming out and making snide remarks about being as good as chuck is nothing more than an admission he is accurate in what he says and you are pissed off you did not get to say it first.

If you can honestly debate his comments, and back them up with facts.....knock ya socks off.

As for me I think JQ did the wrong thing, JE was a bit naive, and the truth is somewhere in the middle. If JQ were smart they would have actually taken him in to study the reality of his story, not sack him.

The sad thing is, JQ/QF management can go public and make contradicting and stupid statements in the media, and one pilot writes a brilliant summary of what many folk are concerned about in the industry and they sack him. The clauses they sack him with are draconian, and I really wonder how they can be legal.

And thats part of what CC and I have debated......not sure who has convinced the other yet. :O


J:ok:

[Obie]

Isn't it a shame that we can't all be as crash hot as Chuck and Jabba?!

[Arnold E]

To be fair, as I understand it, Jabba sticks his own money up and stands to lose the lot.

[psycho joe]

Despite my best efforts, the particular skill set required to travel back in time still eludes me.

I'm unable to travel back in time to improve the workplace conditions of the post ww1 pilots who started the first Australian Airlines. Or the 1950's pilots.
I exist in the here and now in today’s industry.

I don't accept the general belief that Pilots should be worse off for choosing to live and work in Australia (or elsewhere) for an Australian airline. Nor do I accept that 'pretty good' or 'not too bad' is an acceptable career aspiration, or the best that an Australian pilot should hope for.

But it doesn't matter what I think. Because I don't exist.

I am an anonymous name, on a small thread, read by less than 0.1% of the population, in a cyber world that doesn't really exist. And no matter how long or profound my posts may seem, no matter how pontificating or sanctimonious, the reality is that if you choose to switch off, then my Nett effect is zero.

The Joe Eakins article was accurate and well written. The fact that his name was added has given the article far more credibility in the media and had greater effect than several thousand posts here. Only history will judge whether or not he has flirted with the boundaries of acceptable social etiquette.

I think I have put up with about enough vitriol aimed in my direction because I hold a different view to most of you.

Then perhaps you should vote with your feet.:hmm:

[Kangaroo Court]

We warned all of you that soon your own wages and conditions would be compromised when you engaged in the undercutting of the Qantas EBA years ago with low salaries and pay to play schemes. We told you it would undermine AIPA and their ability to maintain an industry leading and commercially viable negotiation schedule. We warned you that we all could be replaced in a global economy unless pilot groups ALL maintained solidarity.

Now... you complain that it has all come true.

Thanks for screwing over nearly a hundred years of industrial progress!

Welcome back to the dawn of the Industrial Revolution.

[DutchRoll]

Jaberwocky, a certain degree of what Chuckles says is accurate and relevant, a large proportion of it is anecdotal (and I make no judgement about the accuracy because I don't know), and some amount of it is just playing the blame game with zero meaningful contribution to the argument, like Kangaroo Court's comments above.

I'd agree that Joe made a miscalculation, but that doesn't mean I think he should be fed to the lions and we should all just turn our heads in disgust while saying "Oh gee, look at that. A pilot being eaten by lions. Bit gory isn't it? Anyway, I've got places to go & people to see."

It disturbs me greatly that there are pilots come on here (and this bit is not aimed at Chuckles) and their sole contribution is pretty much: "We told you so you bastards. Suffer in ya jocks." That attitude is about what I'd expect from a 4 year old fighting over a Thomas the Tank Engine train set and it appears that there are such minds here prancing around in much older bodies who are happy to actively sabotage even an attempt to get some sort of pilot unity going.

Most poignantly, much, if not all of what Joe said when you read the article appears to be rather close to the truth despite JQ Management's protestations and conflicting statements that it's all a pack of lies. So the question remains unanswered: what are we going to do about?

Judging from the drift of this thread, the answer is: bugger all, we'd much prefer to bicker among ourselves and point back to fond memories of the swinging 60s.

Which simply means in the near future I'll have a bunch more "do not fly with........" airlines to put on my list for friends and relatives, and have to talk yet more kids out of an aviation career. That's in addition to the two recent ones I've done, and the one my wife did by herself the other day - her exact quote to the kid's mum being: "if he's so smart and doing so well at school, why would he want to be a pilot?"

[Jack Ranga]

A lot of the assumptions that Chuckles makes are obvious and accurate. There would simply NOT be the amount of people using air travel if it wasn't for the LCC's. (i.e. more pilot jobs) I can relate my experiences before deregulation, I NEVER travelled by air, it was simply un-affordable. An airport terminal was like an exclusive club, somewhere you went as a treat. I saved for 2 years for the airfare to go on my backpacking trip.

If as a pilot you choose to accept the conditions that these LCC's offer, so be it. That you choose to accept conditions that are below what the 'market' rate sets as a result of a shortage of experienced pilots. (An artificial market wage that most of you lot fall for due to the bull**** spun by these LCC's) is your problem.

How do you know what Joe's rationale was for his public comments? Do you know that he may have been willing to risk a career on a principle? For pilots that are willing to accept the immoral and unprincipled actions of certain airlines, so be it, BUT WHAT RIGHT HAVE YOU GOT TO CALL A BLOKE STUPID for standing up for his beliefs?

Kind of ironic isn't it that the group that accept these 'conditions' eventually benefit from actions taken by blokes like Joe? Whereas if people like Joe don't take action you drag everybody down to your level.

[Normasars]

Jack Ranga :ok:

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Jack,

You are missing one very important point, Joe, is not a hero. I'd reckon he's worried about losing pay and conditions, being jumped on the seniority list for a command, you can not be naive enough not to see his motives.

He at some stage looked at one star, applied with stars in his eyes, took a position as a big shiney jet pilot , coughed up for an endorsement, with an organisation offering below industry standard conditions ( particularly compared to that of the mothership ), in doing so under cutting his conditions and the seniority list of many in the mothership.

Now the organsiation is trying to again reduce pay and conditions, in doing so putting his job on shakey ground, so he has decided to kick up a stink, I believe this is purely a self serving act.

Whilst I do not think much of AJ, he is absolutely correct, trying to dress up an industrial issue as a safety issue is stupid, even the general public can read between the lines on that one.

IMHO, Joe is no hero, he's just protecting his interests, raping it with some feel good spin about "We, the industry", these people should have thought about their actions before accepting the job.

And yes I do believe they can suffer in their jocks.

[fridge magnet]

I suppose some people here also think bankers should rationalise situations using 'economic reality' and not question rapid changes in ethics and methodologies. Oh thats right, they didn't and now post GFC we face the prospect of 20 years of stagnated economies. A real bummer that there weren't enough Joe's on Wall Street to stop the insanity.

I suggest to some outsiders here that we are no longer in the same old argument about conditions etc. so let the axe grinding stop. QF has stepped over the line in its long push for reform by attempting to disempower pilots and engineers through various methods. They think they are being clever - staff think they are taking extraordinary risks. Anyone who resists or raises concern is apparently industrially motivated. Some of us just see a great business being trashed by Managers who don't really know what they are doing - just trying to do it cheaper!

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Let me get this right.

You are in need, so everyone else should forgive and forget.

Uhh hahh, that logic might make perfect sense to a Gen Y :rolleyes:.

[fridge magnet]

Tosser,

Seems you are quite bitter and confused. Maybe you have been in a sheltered workshop too long to remember how the real world works. All acts, especially in career, are self serving. What is wrong with that and why cant you come to terms with it? Or have you never behaved in a self serving manner?

Whether this is IR dressed up or not doesn't change the fact that these are real issues that concern many. Some of us are relieved that they are now in the public arena. I don't pretend to know or care what Joes agenda is - why are you so sure about it?

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Fridge Magnet,

I am neither bitter or confused.

When something looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, well it is probably a duck.

Never have I claimed to know with any certainty what anyone is thinking, but apply the above statement to someones action and it kind of narrows it down.

Real issues, to whom ? One star pilots ?, well the way I see it they really do not run as a collective too well.

Self serving, yes ( me and my family ), certainly, but not at the cost of another ( and their family ) and never without considering the long term consequence of my actions.

If you work in a brothel you're going to see some dick. ( work for a LCC and LCC is the imperative ).

I really detest emotional black mailing through misinformation and spin.

This is not an industry issue, it is a one star issue.

One star pilots do not see them selves as a part of the "group", if they did, why did they accept worse terms and conditions than the "group" ?, and now bitch about using the "we, the industry" banner.

Add something unemotional and intelligent and I'll respond.

[fridge magnet]

Wow Tosser, The J* thing really got under your skin - Others self interested decisions must have cost your family dearly. My family are fine and healthy and in the greater scheme of things, have forgotten about my imminent left seat that dissapeared when J* expanded.

The issues on the agenda are worth a debate more so than views about past history. Past history does nothing to help me look after No 1 and failing to support Joe in word or action is the quickest way for the debate to prematurely die.

We need to get to the bottom of the issues about QFs attraction to thin employment contracts without seniority etc. QF apparently just bought another Australian AOC that comes with a thin (much thinner than J*) employment contract.

Focus on what Joe has raised, whether you like the way he did it or not, and debate it. We need to keep this debate alive, become as informed as possible and stay on subject.

[Obie]

Well, so much for Joe's support from you lot!

That didn't last long, did it? :=:=

[c173]

so are we bored of this? any updates on Joe? :confused:

[neville_nobody]

IMHO, Joe is no he's just protecting his interests, raping it with some feel good spin about "We, the industry", these people should have thought about their actions before accepting the job.

To a certain extent you are correct and I agree with your sentiments, however in essence what you are saying is that everyone should stay put in the job they are in and refuse to fly for Jetstar or Virgin when it was a startup. Are you telling me that if you were a night freight captain on a Metro and Jetstar are offering to almost double your salary to fly a new jet, you would stay put in your metro working back of the clock just because you thought that working for a perceived low salary would undermine the whole industry?

What you are suggesting is that a whole generation of pilots should stay in GA/Regionals so that you can get paid a high end wage by world standards.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Yes, Neville, suprisingly enough, thats just about exactly what I did, and it paid off.

To act in any other way was short sighted and rather ignorant, I sat down, looked very closely at the offer sitting infront of me and the long term consequences accepting the position would cause, and declined.

What you are suggesting is that a whole generation of pilots should stay in GA/Regionals so that you can get paid a high end wage by world standards.

In part, yes, if pilots had forsight and integrity, they would have said no, the company would have changed its tack and offered much better conditions on all fronts to get the crew into the aircraft, to the point it would have been motherships terms and conditions, and guess what, none of this would be happening.

Houses are not getting cheaper, yet pilots are working for less, you'd have to question their stupidity.

This is the reason I have no sympathy, they caused their own demise, they under cut everyone else, now someone else is doing it to them, IMHO its really not that complicated.

Good luck to them, but, my eyes glaze over when I hear these guys and gals complaining and banging the drum.

[neville_nobody]

I think if that were to happen in this day and age the airlines would go to the government cap in hand and say that there are no suitable applicants and start getting foreign workers in. REX tried this stunt a few years ago when they were short of crew only to discover that the salary was to low to qualify for the Visa on offer!!

[bonvol]

In part, yes, if pilots had forsight and integrity,

Forsight...Integrity....Pilots

Tell him he's dreamin' :{

[Mr. Hat]

I need to get my head around this.

So because people accepted jobs at VB and Jetstar, we (all pilots) should forever stand back and let various managements do whatever they please. Is this correct?

Everybody should stay on a Metro/Saab/Braz so it will one day pay off? Each to their own but I could easily pour over many regional eba's and state that they are infact the ultimate in peasant conditions: 8 days off/split duties/motel rooms/6 sector days/casual rosters/firm rosters that change everyday.

I think there needs to be a distinction between a reasonable offer here. For example J* NZ is not reasonable. Its pretty clear that this would be a step backwards from most regional jobs. Hence even when I was desperate to leave a crap job I just deleted the recruitment email.

I've got a good job earn good money and am comfortable. Should I just not give a **** that someone has been sacked for speaking out about a safety concern? Perhaps.

Word on the street is that the sacking has had the desired effect and the Jetstar guys are keeping their mouths shut and heads down. Congrats management. It worked...IF it doesn't gain traction at the Senate Enquiry.

If not all you can hope for is Karma...

[waren9]

SD Tosser

This is a tired old argument that goes round and round.

Reality is:

Not everyone has the qualifications nor ability nor desire to work for a Qantas.

You live in an alternate reality if you expect these people to stay on GA wages for the rest of their lives when there is a reasonable offer (to them!) on the table somewhere else.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

So because people accepted jobs at VB and Jetstar, we (all pilots) should forever stand back and let various managements do whatever they please. Is this correct?


Yes, I believe they have already lowered the bar, why would I want to help them lower it some more.

I think their needs to be a distinction between a reasonable offer here. For example J* NZ is not reasonable

This clearly is where you and I differ, I believe what one star pilots are presently accepting is unreasonable, as I did several years ago when I did the apples with apples comparision, so one star NZ, IMHO is even more unreasonable.

Should I just not give a **** that someone has been sacked for speaking out about a safety concern? Perhaps.


Safety concern, horses bollocks, it's an industrial issue.

You live in an alternate reality if you expect these people to stay on GA wages for the rest of their lives when there is a reasonable offer (to them!) on the table somewhere else.

And by that logic is exactly the reason you didn't have the ability to negotitate what I consider reasonable terms and conditions at the start.

If you guys think it so good, why is it you are such a miserable mob ?.

I thought it was unreasonable then and nothing has changed.

There are many organisation, GA and regional that offer reasonable terms, conditions and a good work/home balance.

If a pilot runs to job interviews willing to dry hump the leg of the CEO who's organisation is willing to put them in a new jet, damn the consequences, I personally think they're daft.

Reality is:

Not everyone has the qualifications nor ability nor desire to work for a Qantas.



Qantas is not the only other employer of pilots.

[Mr. Hat]

There are many organisation, GA and regional that offer reasonable terms, conditions and a good work/home balance.

bwahahaha:{:D what a pisser. You mean peasant conditions with fckall job security.:D:ugh:

This clearly is where you and I differ, I believe what one star pilots are presently accepting is unreasonable, as I did several years ago when I did the apples with apples comparision, so one star NZ, IMHO is even more unreasonable.

Sure I opted for a better deal also. I'm not saying that my job is better than theirs just suited me better. However I wouldn't expect a REX or Skippers pilot to knock it back (J* oz EBA that is) (J*nz ..well I'd rather go get a trade).

Safety concern, horses bollocks, it's an industrial issue

Fair enough maybe so depending on how you look at it. But the net effect is to hush people from speaking out = safety concern. A few people in the Senate tend to see it this way as well....

[aulglarse]

sdTOSSER, winding the clock back 10 years with no purchase of JQ, how would you have handled the threat to your cushy job courtesy of VB smashing QF's profits? Oh and to compete,the latest commands on a 76/73 is for 30% less? Tell me you wouldn't take one.

As for Australian Airlines in Cairns, well........:=

As has been said many times before, Joe simply had enough and stood up!

[Shed Dog Tosser]

QF domestic alone is still turning a profit despite all this "fierce" competition you speak off, not all punters are sold on the value of a $1 airfare.

One star, VB and the striped quadruped are really competition for each other and their creation has really hit Greyhound and Firefly Coaches the hardest.

IMHO, those that have jumped ship to cheaper fares have either come back very quickly or it is highly probable they are best flying elsewhere, I've only flown LCC a couple of times and have always been fearful of being raped in the toilets or getting in a fist fight because I wore a shirt with a collar and shoes, clearly I think I'm better than them........

Joe simply had enough and stood up!

Well good for him, I very much doubt his work mates will stand behind him, do not seem to be so far, too much self interest at play, I wonder how many heard the news of his demise, smiled and took their red pen to the seniority list without another single thought.

I feel for the guy but do not think it was a well thought through action.

the latest commands on a 76/73 is for 30% less?

There are still those with a backbone that would not stand for such an act, oh and what of the negotiation of said "pseudo agreement", do you reckon it would stand a snow flakes chance of being voted in ?.

Wow this is getting really boring, is there anything interesting the pro-race to the bottom crew would like to add ?.

[fridge magnet]

Glad to see you're getting bored SDTosser.

I have been raising concern since NJS turned up with the first red tail 146 15 years ago. Since then many people like you still can't string together a coherent response other than a school yard standard "he started it".

Safety concern, horses bollocks, it's an industrial issue.

A short story….
1. A Company has expensive and confident pilots with strong culture. Yuk. Bean-counter nightmare ... ticket prices falling.
2. Fix it by starting up new company with cheaper pilots and make sure culture doesn't get polluted.
3. New company now cheaper but pilots start developing a similar culture. Awful things like complying with rules & regs, taking sick leave when short of pilots, not extending duties when fatigued, not working on short notice when unrested and reporting dodgy practices that might look bad in the press. This is no good, shoestring budget blowing out! Fire them. Bugger. Horrible regulations protecting them and Howard voted out.
4. Make more new companies. Jerk everyone around a lot - they should feel less comfortable now. Bugger, pilots still insist on doing inconvenient things and some have the audacity to stand up for their rights. Some of them even use rules/contractual rights to better their industrial position and maybe even use these to jerk the comany around from time to time. Got to get rid of those rules. They are stuffing up the whole masterplan.
5. Make new industrial situations that totally disempower Pilots. Scare the crap out of them. That'll fix it. Now any rascals miss out on promotion and hopefuly bugger off. Or they'll have to keep quiet because of their massive training debt. Finally we can prove this shoestring budget really works by retaining a new breed of subservient pilots that’ll always help us keep the show on the road.
6. Keep telling the world that safety is our number one priority and that we hold our staff in the highest regard. Make out that anyone who raises concern has an industrial axe to grind. Brilliant! What could possibly go wrong?

SDT, this is an industrial issue and OUR BOSS is vigorously pursuing it. But if you cant see the associated safety/operational standards slippage involved then I think you are out of touch.

I am very concerned about disempowered expert workforces (Pilots and Engineers) anywhere within the company that pays my salary. NASA managed to blow up the space shuttle twice by disempowering their experts. If this all goes wrong, we all might end up on the same T&C's - unemployed. Do you think the business will survive a smoking hole in the ground regardless of what colour the tail was? I doubt it.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Wow, I guess you've got it all worked out then,,,, (yawn).......

Since then many people like you still can't string together a coherent response other than a school yard standard "he started it".


School yard or not, it is still true.

Do you think the business will survive a smoking hole in the ground regardless of what colour the tail was? I doubt it.

Pretty much every real airline in the world has made smoking holes somewhere, including the mothership, and they survive just fine.

I really enjoy reading your opinions presented as facts, and your amazing theories, you mad economical scientist you.

Here's my safety concern, since we stopped being given those little bags of pretzels on our meal trays, and given the peanuts instead, every flight I spend 1-2 milli-seconds lamenting the pretzels and how much I enjoyed them, perhaps I should take this to the media as a safety issue ?, well it couldn't be anything other than a safety issue could it ?, you know, because it is coming from a pilot.

Or, do you now believe Mr Eakins concerns to be actually industrial in nature, dressed up as safety, which it isn't.

I say again, is there anything interesting the pro-race to the bottom crew would like to add ?.

You guys/gals should stand together, that is what a smart group would do, but do not expect the love and admiration from those that you previously and selfishly burnt.

[Mr. Hat]

Worry not SDT.

My prediction is that the Senate Enquiry won't change a thing and if anything will just put more scrutiny on simulator sessions with the regulator able to exert even more pressure. Nor will FWA support the J Eakins cause because ultimately it is a breach of the contract.

Lucky you and I got a good job hey.

Big Business will always win in the end. All the best.

[Jabiman]

Big Business will always win in the end.
Yes, this is sad....we managed to defeat communism only to succumb to the tyranny of the corporation.
Funnily enough, if not for the recent influx of super cheap consumer goods from communist China over the past decade, then real spending power of the average wage earner would have actually fallen substantially.

[fridge magnet]

I say again, is there anything interesting the pro-race to the bottom crew would like to add ?
There is nothing interesting to add. The situation is quite straightforward to most.
I really enjoy reading your opinions presented as facts, and your amazing theories, you mad economical scientist you.
Glad to hear you're entertained. What’s not so funny under the tongue in cheek story is some unfortunate reality.
You guys/gals should stand together, that is what a smart group would do, but do not expect the love and admiration from those that you previously and selfishly burnt.
SDT, were your burns first degree? If so then I'm sure no one expects you to be forthcoming with love and admiration. Good luck with your recovery but I'll be too busy paying attention to Joe's recovery to keep in touch. Ciao.

[Normasars]

A little bird just told me that Joe has been re-employed this arvo. That's the strong rumour.

[The Green Goblin]

So I can stop my $20 a week transfer then :)

Congrats mate!!

(lets hope it's true!)

[Keg]

I think I recall hearing that there was to be a conciliation meeting today so hopefully that is the outcome.

[The Kelpie]

Excellent news if true!

[Arnold E]

All we need now is a similar outcome for the Sunstate engineers:ok:

[gobbledock]

A little bird just told me that Joe has been re-employed this arvo. That's the strong rumour.
If it is true, and I hope it is, then this is a win not just for Joe, but for Australian aviation.

Why ? Well, it is a first step towards safety inprovement in Australia. Most in the industry are accutely aware of the downturn of safety standards in Australia over the past decade. In regards to Joe's speaking out it may have been his voice spreading the message but in effect he spoke on behalf of thousands within the Australian aviation community who have in their own way been preaching their safety concerns but only for those voices to fall on deaf ears. If you want to call yourselves executives or CEO's then start listening to your frontline people. Form the working groups, meet with those who get their hands dirty and listen to the truth. Stop viewing any person under senior management level as a liability and start valuing everybody as an assett.

Without being specific to any particular country ( you be the judge), Airline CEO's pay attention - The vast majority of you are fed complete and utter false, ficticious and distorted facts by your senior management. Senior managers know that if they actually told you the truth they would likely be marched out the door and as CEO your hair would turn white overnight if you knew some of the real and actual facts about what is happenning in your organisation. When people speak out to the point that they lose their jobs you need to start thinking about the big picture. Is the guy speaking out a complete nutter ? Or are his factual concerns so scary that he would put his job on the line or even lose it in a desperate ditched attempt to prevent a major tragedy ? It just may be a 'Joe' who actually saves your organisation from one day suffering a tragedy, and it may be a 'Joe' who saves the organisation from becoming part of aviation history.

CEO's remember - the people like Joe and the Sunstate engineers are out there in the thousands, seeing, doing, acting every day of their lives, and they see the things that you simply do not see, they know the things that your senior managers try very hard to conceal from you every day, and usually quite successfully. If you actually knew how much is hidden from you on a daily basis you would hide your face in embarressment. Instead of sacking those who are speaking out in an effort to create a safer environment which translates to airline longevity start listening to their messages. Thousands of concerned aviators cannot all be wrong, do the maths ?
Safety is not achieved by huge ego's, arrogance, destroying your wokforce or by sacking those trying to actually help you even when it flies in the face of what you actually want to hear.

Do I personally know Joe ? Absolutely not. Never met the guy and never heard of him until the media headlines hit the newstand.
Do I personally know the Sunstate engineers currently under suspension ? No, I do not know any of them.
Do I support these people ? Damn straight. It is not for me to judge whether they 'obeyed company policy', or whether they 'followed the correct channels' to air their grievences, but 'desperate times deserve desperate measures', and just maybe this is the reason behind their actions.

It is time for all of us in this industry in one way or another to 'eat the proverbial s#it sandwich' and move forward.
What is done is done, the ball is moving, how the game is played out is yet to be determined. I call on Bruce to officially reinstate Joe (if this has not officially occurred), and I call on Alan to personally take a hand in reinstating the Sunstate engineers. The spotlight is on you CEO's and it is not going away in a hurry. Reinstate these men, talk to them personally and work with them personally, listen to them, and as a group fix the problems. Do it privately, and consider this - no media, no union, no mediator and no bulls#it. Bury the issue and work together to achieve safety. If not, and I have said it before, the clock is ticking and a major accident is inevitable, and as a CEO and the 'accountable person', do you want your legacy and reputation cannonised in that sort of historical event ??

[Keith Myath]

Welcome back Joe.


Joint Media Statement by Jetstar and Joseph Eakins

The following public statement is issued by Jetstar Airways and Joseph Eakins. “Following discussions directly with Jetstar, I am pleased to accept the airline’s offer to be reinstated and immediately return to my role as an A330 First Officer,” Mr Eakins said. “I will return to Jetstar on the same employment arrangement and hold my previous level of seniority. “I welcome the opportunity to now rejoin my Pilot colleagues at Jetstar and be part of its future. “The unfair dismissal claim I had made against Jetstar has now ended. “My ambition is to have a long term career with Jetstar and I never intended my comments to bring into question the sound and proactive safety culture that exists within Jetstar. “I apologise for any inference that might have been drawn from my comments that I was questioning Jetstar’s safety culture because that was certainly not my intention. “I acknowledge that I made public statements in regards to Jetstar’s safety system and its safe flying operations, its Pan Asian network growth strategy and the level of remuneration of Jetstar Pilots
employed in Singapore that could mislead the public and had the potential to damage Jetstar’s reputation. “This is something I did not intend and which I regret doing and Jetstar has accepted my apology for this.
“Jetstar does have appropriate avenues for line Pilots like myself to effectively communicate to all levels of the airline. I am now aware of the best and most effective way to do this.” Jetstar Australia and New Zealand CEO David Hall said he welcomed Mr Eakins back into Jetstar and was pleased that we managed to resolve this matter following direct dialogue with Mr Eakins.

[Engineer_aus]

Well done to all who contributed in the reinstatement. Now only if we could achieve this with the Sunstate Engineers.

[psycho joe]

Looks like some serious grovelling with pursed lips.

While he was at it maybe he could have also apologised for the stolen generation, the deaths of 'boat people', Wiki Leaks, interest rate rises and using the company toilet paper. :hmm:

[TIMA9X]

A good outcome...... my congratulations to all involved on both sides of the issue. A lot of faith restored for many employees me thinks!

[PammyAnderson]

Wow they really made him bend over and use the chap stick for that statement.
I bet they (pornstar) think they won getting him to basically grovel and retract his statement. In essence they probably did. How many other Jetstar FOs would say what they really think now. Arrrr what a great industry it now is...

[AerocatS2A]

"Just sign this statement Mr. Eakins and you can enjoy the benefits of full time employment again."
"But I don't agree with that ****!"
"Do you wish to be able to support yourself and your family in the years to come?"
"Yes."
"Just here Mr. Eakins, on the dotted line."
"Ok."

"We knew you'd sign."
"Really, how?"
"Remember when you joined this company you paid $30,000 for the privilege of working for us?"
"Yes."
"That's how we knew you'd sign."

[swh]

I think a lot of us question the practice paying for training, however there is a clear difference between paying for some form of training and also paying for some form of training and also being competent.

I think what Joe was on about is the spreading practice of airlines asking new hires to fund their training costs. I think all pilots that are currently employed by airlines are not comfortable with that idea. He would not be alone in that view.

However I have faith that system that does the line training and then checks a new pilot to line. I do not think a new pilot would be checked to line unless they were safe. It should not matter if a person paid for their training after coming from a GA, or was employed having flown the type with another operator, they would both need to meet the same standard.

I know there has been a case discussed on pprune before of a pilot who paid for training with Jetstar, however was later deemed as to not meeting the required standard and had their employment terminated.

I am also aware of a number of international students that originate from a mid asia region that do not understand that they need to meet a standard to get a CPL. Paying the money, and getting the hours does not give an automatic pass.

So I guess my point is, it should not matter where you get trained, or who pays for the training, a pilot should always need to meet the required standard. Paying for training should not guarantee a job, rating, or licence.

[balance]

I acknowledge that I made public statements in regards to Jetstar’s safety system and its safe flying operations, its Pan Asian network growth strategy and the level of remuneration of Jetstar Pilots
employed in Singapore that could mislead the public and had the potential to damage Jetstar’s reputation. “This is something I did not intend and which I regret doing and Jetstar has accepted my apology

What???? You sniveling idiot? I cannot believe it. Mr Eakins, stay at Jetstar, it is the perfect place for you.

I was so pleased when you first spoke out, I figured that finally one of you had some backbone. Now I'm proved horribly, publicly wrong.

Jetstar does have appropriate avenues for line Pilots like myself to effectively communicate to all levels of the airline. I am now aware of the best and most effective way to do this

Unless they say otherwise...

UNBELIEVABLE!!!:mad::ugh::ugh::\:eek::sad::{

Anybody who contributed money to this sniveller has a right to be mightily p1ssed off.

[Sunfish]

I assume airlines run an international blacklist and Mr. Eakins found himself added to it?

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Mixed feelings reading that....

Sure he doesn't mean it.

[Mr. Hat]

He's no Assange or Che Guevara!

But hey bills ain't going to pay themselves, so I can't begrudge him for that.

Certainly made a few ppruners look like fools myself included! Some even donated money. Jesus.

I say if you're going to speak out at that level make sure you believe in your cause first.

[Fruet Mich]

So basically all Joe wrote was lies? There is absolutely no safety issue at jetstar and they put safety first? What a load of horse sh$t!! to make it even worse they make Joe come out in the papers and make himself out to be a complete idiot who writes nothing but lies and basically makes out that pilots are just over paid snivling complainers. Just what Jetstar wanted. Now they can carry on with their perfect deception to the general public in Australia and new Zealand that they put safety ahead of money. What a joke.

Joe, I did have the upmost respect and support for you, but now I find it very hard to even stomach your name. This is exactly why this industry is f&$ked! No one has a spine. If you kept tackeling these guys there would have to be a change of culture and you would have got your job back. If fact it just blows my mind you even want to go back and work for these vermin. Now they will just carry on with their bullying unsafe culture.

As the great chopper Reid once said, harden the f&$k up Australia.

[Biggles747]

Just a question. How many other current Jetstar Pilots stood up and said that he was correct and put their jobs on the line? Not one I would suspect. :=

[Skynews]

I've said it before and I truly believe it, as the evidence is overwhelming. pilots cannot be trusted to support one another.

Safety is a great catch phrase, in reality safety means protecting the bottom line, not lives.

This guy backed down in a big way, he was also one of the only ones o stand up to start with, before we hang Him, let's consider what we haone done and what we are prepared to do. That's correct, fcuk all, except complain on prune.

Jetstar is unfounately the breeding ground for the worst of it.

[waren9]

Can none of you red necks see through this?

Eakins doesnt believe a word of it.

Jetstar backed down 'cause they knew they would get spanked in FWA.

It also makes them look "gracious" in the senate inquiry.

[Skynews]

Jetstar backed down 'cause they knew they would get spanked in FAwA




If Jetstar and everyone knew that why didn't Joe follow through rather than put his name to a page of complete drivel?

I bet there will be more media coverage, sponsored by the " pox" with his backdown on it than the initial letter stating fact.

At the end of the day the "pox" management 1, pilots 0.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

I congratulate the man. He got his punch in and he took a few back. Anyone who reads the end of the story can read right through it in fact it makes those mongerals look even worse.

[ANCDU]

Waren it doesn't matter if Eakins doesn't believe a word of it, its in print and he has put his name to it. Jetstar management have come out of this basically without a scratch, and poor old Joe has come out looking second best. I also wonder how much support he has had from the J* pilot community. If they are all so concerned why wasn't there a united front? It doesn't make them look good at all.

Must admit i am a bit surprised by this press statement, and I believe unfortunately will do our push for unity and better conditions in Australia a great deal of harm. Another chance to highlight problems in our industry gone.
:(

At least Joe initially had the guts to stand up! Just sounds as though he didn't have the support of his fellow pilots.

[Mr. Hat]

Just a question. How many other current Jetstar Pilots stood up and said that he was correct and put their jobs on the line? Not one I would suspect.

I say don't sling mud on a major newspaper unless you're willing to go all the way.

The man stood up and put his name and face to the argument, which is more than most have done.

Writing mud on a newspaper, backing out of the Senate enquiry and signing a scripted apology? As I said he's got to put food on the table which is fine but don't you come telling us he's done more than rest of us. Perhaps others choose to not breach our employment contract and use the correct avenues?

Maybe the kudos goes to the Jetstar man that made the detailed submission to the Senate Enquiry. Noone mentioned him now did they?

Jetstar backed down 'cause they knew they would get spanked in FAwA

We will never know now. My opinion is that FWA would have upheld the decision.

Jetstar didn't back down. Indeed it is their management that displayed the back bone by sacking someone right in the middle of a Senate enquiry on the very topic of whistleblowers. Now I say they're either very balsy, confident or sure of the FWA outcome. After all this is Australia and we all know BIG BUSINESS WINS!!

Joe raised awareness and he has to be congratulated on that. Let their be no mistake that in a different time or in a different country fellow union members would be taking a much harder line!

I hope the rest of the $40,000 dollars goes to a children's hospital or to someone that really needs it.

[Fruet Mich]

Yep, maybe I was a little harder horserun but it's is my opinion I guess. Others will differ.

All I am saying is that here was a guy that came out with obvious safety issues and let the general public know the true. On the other side of the ledger was these fine upstanding citizens of the business world managers of jetstar claiming there was absolutely no issues with safety and they couldn't figure out why mr Joe Eakins would be stating these crazy allegations!!?? Now Joe has come out and basically said that all his concerns were fabricated and he is sorry for bringing this fine upstanding company into disrepute in questioning their safety standards.

Now who do you think the public are going to support in the senate enquiry? Greedy pilots who "make up" fairy tales because they are upset they arn't paid enough? Who perhaps the fine upstanding citizens at jetstar management who are offering them a $30 ticket to their favorite holiday destination.

Ask yourself

[mustman]

Joe stood up and no one followed him!

Everyone agreed with his case, but when he got the sack it seemed as if every Jetstar pilot flew on as normal.

No wonder he signed this statement to get his job back.

You did well Joe. You tried and alot of people respect you for that. :ok:

[ratpoison]

Just sounds as though he didn't have the support of his fellow pilots.

Exactly, but let’s break down the Jsh*t pilot group.

1. Kids out of GA on their first jet, of which they have paid out big bucks for.

2. GA pilots from Impulse driving around in modern Jets rather than a beat up King Air and roll over on their backs like dogs at the smell of trouble.

3. Ex Ansett who have gone through a dispute and an airline collapse, topping up the Super and again roll over like the Impulse boys when faced with confrontation.

4. QF on the MOU who have come over and got their commands on a wide body years before they would have with the rat.

5. Then a few dozen very experienced DEC’s from CX, EK, SQ, QA etc who treat management with the contempt they deserve and basically tell them to f**k off.

Now, reread the list and it all falls into place why there is no unity amongst this lot. :ugh::confused:

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, fair chance it's a duck.

[ozbiggles]

He's not the Mesiah!
He's just a very naughty boy!!!!
Oh well, for a brief moment there was a flicker of hope and at least he had a go.......Now stone him

[Horatio Leafblower]

What???? You sniveling idiot? I cannot believe it. Mr Eakins, stay at Jetstar, it is the perfect place for you.

I was so pleased when you first spoke out, I figured that finally one of you had some backbone. Now I'm proved horribly, publicly wrong.

UNBELIEVABLE!!!

Anybody who contributed money to this sniveller has a right to be mightily p1ssed off.

This is way out of line. As has been said above, Joe stood up, took the hit, showed guts and leadership. The rest of the pilot body did little to back him up, except throw money.

Joe Eakins - more integrity than the average bear :ok:

[fridge magnet]

All of the negative opinions are understandable given how things look.

However, my personal experience with litigation leads me to think this a fabulous outcome.

As is usual in a settlement, there must be give on both sides. It might seem to some that Joe has given too much in the way of words but consider the alternatives. Jet* has certainly given much - must have crapped themselves about something.

Pursuing a case through FWA, even if successful, will not help the cause in any way. Joe has made his point already. A FWA case would not help him prove it - it would just be a sideshow and not in his or the company's interest. Besides, the case would probably have barely touched on the aviation industry issues. It would have been won or lost on technicalities.

Joe has his job back. He lives to fight another day (probably a bit quieter). QF group is on notice now to ensure they do not act in a way that validates what Joe originally alleged. This is legal gold and achieved with minimal cost!

Well done Joe and AIPA.

[TIMA9X]

Joe has his job back. He lives to fight another day (probably a bit quieter). QF group is on notice now to ensure they do not act in a way that validates what Joe originally alleged. This is legal gold and achieved with minimal cost! Spot on, we all know the story, most of Joe's passengers won't have a clue. I am happy that it is all over quickly & Joe is back at work, what (almost) everyone on here wanted.

No need for this to have dragged on, and no doubt the managers @ J* privately saw the writing on the wall regarding this case, to their credit they chose to resolve it which in itself is a win for Joe. The words in the press release should be regarded as "corporate window dressing" that we all have become accustomed to over the last few years, but this time favouring the pilot!

[nick0857]

The question comes though, is this even going to have any affect on J* to fix their issues regarding safety? Majority of pilots supported Eakins when he stood up, and it's like J* realized they we're going to loose any case put forward by FWA and reinstated him.

Whilst I hold high respect for Eakins for standing up and raising awareness of the issue, reading that "statement" seemed like it came from direct from J* management...:ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

They weren't going to lose nick. A lot of power and money at stake. Don't think for a minute that the system works as the book says it does.

Powerful people in high places they all know each other.

[PittsS2A]

Agree with Mustman.

Joe has been failed by his peers.

The saying actions speak louder than words applies here.

Joe's collegues, whilst full of praise for his courageous stance, failed to stand up to the company along side him and thus Joe was forced to do whatever J* management wanted him to do in order for him to get his job back.

One thing is for sure, I dont believe a word of that statement and anyone who believes any part of a statement signed under such duress is a bigger fool than anyone could ever give them credit for.

LR3,

The problem is not with the union reps, but the members themselves.
As a former union delegate in a different industry I used to always be asked the question "What is the union going to do about it ?" and my answer was always "Who is the union ?" and when I finally got through to the person asking the question that the Union was all of us together inevitably the anwer to the original question was "Nothing" because as a group collectively not enough of "The Union" had the intestinal fortitude to turn words into actions.

Remember this, a union is like a chain, it is only as good as its weakest member.

[aulglarse]

gotta love endorsed spin!:=

[maccaj73]

Grovelling back is an understatement. The company has made him look like a complete and utter desperate fool. I cannot believe he would have actually signed that statement after being so vocal about it originally. Surely he could have negotiated a different statement which maintained him some level of credibility but i think JQ would like him to look like a idiot to deter any future people who stand up.......

A november to remember and a december to forget? ha ha ha unlikely...at the end of the day self interest rules.

[Normasars]

What an outfit!

What a hypocrite!!

What a disgrace!!!

You deserve everything you get!!!!

ONYA JETSTAR :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[balance]

Hiya Horatio.

My words might have been strong, and perhaps I could have toned them down somewhat. I do however feel, that if Joe believed in the statement he signed and handed over to the media, he is a hypocrite, because he has gone completely against what he originally said. If he didnt believe those words in the statement, then he is a liar. You dont sign something you dont believe in.

That he made his original statement - well done.

Normasars and macca have it right in the last two posts.

The real questions are: WHERE WERE HIS JETSTAR COLLEAGUES? WHY WERENT THEY BY HIS SIDE? WHERE ARE THEY NOW? WHY WAS IT ONLY AIPA ASSISTING HIM AND NOT THE JPC? WHY IN THE HELL DID THEY SELL OUT IF THEY HAD SUCH A STRONG CASE?

They have effectively lost ground now - we are further on the downhill slide than we were previously.

Fridge Magnet said: QF group is on notice now to ensure they do not act in a way that validates what Joe originally alleged

Sorry Fridge - but the QF group is doing EXACTLY what Joe said they shouldnt do. The Singapore base IS GOING AHEAD UNABATED! They are going about their business of dismantling our profession without hesitation. This has made ZERO difference.

I said it before and I say it again - UNBELIEVABLE!

[War with Inner Peace]

Good decision Joe. No sense dying in a ditch over a battle that can't be won.

Don't worry about the statement. Who cares?? Only a corporate greedy could come up with that sh&t. We all know that.

Joe's Colleagues, you Guys and Girls are lost. The minute you didn't walk off the job in outrage your fate was sealed. The management grubs have your measure.

Industrial wars need warriors and lots of them!! A few to lead and many to follow. Joe gave you the lead and the rest of you floundered with apathy or cowardice.

AIPA, Hang your heads. Enterprise based unions don't work and you are living proof. Too much fear and conflict of interest.

How difficult would it have been to write a letter in support of Joe and have it signed by every member and published in the news media?

Go to your room, study the waterfront dispute and learn something about unity and heart.

Spineless whingers, go and get sacked for the cause and then come back and have a whinge.

Finally, management grubs, you know you are grubs, I know you are grubs, the public know you are grubs and karma is a b!tch. Enjoy your grubbery while it lasts because corporate greed ain't going to last forever.:D

Regards,

WWIP

[Clipped]

Good decision Joe. No sense dying in a ditch over a battle that can't be won.

Perhaps. But you can do more damage being on the job. Burning a little bit more of that fuel. Write up plenty of defects. You can make them pay. Be creative, do it quietly.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

but i think JQ would like him to look like a idiot to deter any future people who stand up.......


More like a injured and maimed animal, as an example to the rest.

This is more of a statement on his workmates.

I wonder how lame, injured and maimed the pilot body will look when facing the company at any future "negotiations", with this event as an indication of the intestinal fortitude available.

I still think Joe was stupid to think he could take on the company publicly, with no plan B, did he think his workmates would support him ?, must have.

As to the claim that the FWA application would have come to anything significant, well I'm pretty sure his going to the media is a breach of his employment contract, one that could easily be proven to have done damage to the organisation, simply by showing his article as cut directly out of one of our nations newspapers, game set and match really.

Glad he's back at work, his workmates let him down, but what would you expect from those within that culture.

You'd have to be pretty dense to believe a single word in that statement, public image is far more important than spending a day at the FWA and at worst case coughing up a meagre lump of cash.

[Under Dog]

If Joe thought that his fellow work mates would stick by him then he is naive,
The aviation industry is the only game I know and have worked in ( and I speak from plenty of experience)that its every man for himself . Good luck Joe but your on your own.

The Dog

[flyingins]

Joe's colleagues certainly stood by him; by joining the union movement to ensure levels of membership higher than ever before in this airline and by donating their own money directly to his cause.

To presume that the remaining 600 or so pilots in JQ have wronged Joe by not walking off the job is naive and misses the following points;

1) It is illegal to do so.
2) It leaves each individual pilot open to legal action and liable for their share of damages caused by such a breach of the Fair Work Act.
3) It would potentially have invited Federal Government intervention in much the same way as occurred during whatever year that was in the late 1980s which would have put the entire profession back decades. Just as it arguably did before.
4) It wouldn't have in any way, shape or form helped Joe's unfair dismissal case.
5) It wouldn't have in any way, shape or form caused Qantas, Virgin, VAustralia, Tiger, Alliance, Skywest or any other airline's pilots from joining the cause for the same reasons as 1-4 above.

Some of you have so arrogantly decried Joe's actions but forget that you are using the veil of anonymity to mask your attacks and I have no doubt have not done a thing to back up Joe yourself other than say some warm-and-fuzzy words of support on one of these PPRUNE threads.

Yet the second Joe does something to help his own personal fortunes (after taking so many hits it would make any lesser man's head spin), you immediately attack him? Shame on you!

Have a good hard look at yourselves and try to calculate who is really guilty of hurting the cause here and as you do, remember this. Joe has his career back, AIPA has a moral victory and Jetstar look as if they've publically caved to the pressure of professional airline pilots and their industrial organisations for the first time. Regardless of what 'words' Joe chose to put his name to.

The wheel turns slowly, but turning it is. This will prove to be one very strong spoke in that wheel as time moves on.

[balance]

Just went and had a look in the mirror. Suitably amused.

Joe's colleagues certainly stood by him; by joining the union movement to ensure levels of membership higher than ever before in this airline and by donating their own money directly to his cause.

How many Jetstar pilots are members of AIPA? I dont know the actual figure, but I think you will find there are only enough to show a clear "disengagement" with AIPA. How many Jetstar pilots voiced their opinions alongside him? If all 600 "talked" to the media in the way Joe did, it wouldnt be industrial action, but they couldnt sack all 600 could they? The airline would be crippled. But no-one apart from Joe had the backbone.

veil of anonymity

As are you.

AIPA has a moral victory

Please, explain to me how, because I just cannot see it. They lost. Big time. Despite their ridiculous emails to the contrary.

Jetstar look as if they've publically caved to the pressure of professional airline pilots and their industrial organisations for the first time.

No they dont! Re-read the news article. Joe looks like a fool, Jetsh1t look like they've won. Read it the way a mug punter does! They dont know the ins and outs of our industrial situation, and nor do they care. All they saw is that Joe apologised. That equates to "I'm wrong!" Good grief, what part of that dont you understand?

The wheel turns slowly, but turning it is. This will prove to be one very strong spoke in that wheel as time moves on.

It is turning, but in the wrong direction! Wake up and smell the coffee!

[Skynews]

I dont believe people are crucifying Joe on this place, most negative criticism is directed at the lack of support offered by his Jetstar colleague. It's disappointing to read his letter, but, considering his options I would probably done the same, maybe sooner.

How any person can justify their inaction simply due to making a small donation, or because they might burn an extra 100 KG of fuel highlights their lack of character.

Action could have come in many forms.

[fridge magnet]

As to the claim that the FWA application would have come to anything significant, well I'm pretty sure his going to the media is a breach of his employment contract, one that could easily be proven to have done damage to the organisation, simply by showing his article as cut directly out of one of our nations newspapers, game set and match really.


Not a comment supported by case history of QF and unfair dismissals. Google it one day. It's entertaining reading. QF usually don't win - even when they caught cabin crew stealing red handed they lost. It's a bit more complex than you make it sound to just fire someone.

[gobbledock]

Even if Joe fought his employer all the way through the system, and it was a nasty public fight, and he eventually won is argument with a ruling in his favour by the FWA, it doesn't mean he would necessarily get his job back. The employer could then appeal to the FWA by saying that the relationship between employer and employee was parlous, unmanagable, untennable, unworkable and severely fractured to the point that a professional working relationship was not viable, likely or possible. The FWA could agree (actually happens very very often) and order that the employer pay the employee a redundancy and they part ways. So Joe although a winner in the original fight is K.O'd by a ****e system that can be easily manipulated by big business, and yesterdays winner actually becomes tomorrow's loser.

The debate over Joe will remain a lively debate for some time I guess. He started out well, very very gutsy, but in the end the need to feed his family is the likely cause of his backdown, and nobody should be critisized for needing to feed hungry mouths. I would walk over desert covered in razors wearing no shoes to feed my family.

As for his employer, they don't win in this. Having an employee eat a public sh#t sandwich which has quite obviosuly been scripted by the employer, having an employee publicly humiliated and have to back down from some serious pointed safety concerns only shows that Joe works for a bully who is prepared to quash any dirty secrets so as to remain technically free from scrutiny. Joe wore a huge pineapple over this but life goes on.

Remember, at the end of the day you 'cant polish the turd'. You can scrub it, coat it in honey and sugar, even cover it in caramel sprinkles and hundreds and thousands, but underneath it still remains a turd....

[kimir]

Someone said joe put his name to absolute dribble... foolish or not, he made a point, with no one behind him for support he did what he had to. I'm glad you can pay the bills again Joe. I don't believe anyone can criticise you for taking your old job back, unless they were willing to sponsor you for the rest of your days. Sorry for you the support wasn't there in the "GROUP". Unfortunately thats the fragmented qantas group all over... happy to be gone. kimir. By the way skynews you don't have the authority to hang anyone...tool.

[limitedrisk]

Good on you Joe!

I am ashamed to read the accusations against Joe.

Joe had a couple of choices:

1. Get employment elsewhere. Success rate: Low
2. Continue with FWA proceedings. Success rate: Unknown
3. Get his job back. Success rate: High (in hindsight)

Christmas and the holiday season are upon us. I don't know Joe, but I am led to believe he has a family. Can you imagine the financial pressure of being unemployed at this time of year?

How can you crucify a family man that has made a shorterm decision to keep his family with the necessities of life?

Joe is not stupid. He has survived to fight another day. Jetstar have won the battle, they have not won the war.

He will regroup and rethink his strategy with the knowledge that his family won't starve. Therefore he can make rational and considered decisions without the financial pressure.

To accuse him behind a veil of secrecy is disgusting and cowardly.

Family comes first - end of story. If you disagree, please explain how he is to feed his children over the next year?

Joe made a start down the path - lets continue with the way forward we know we must take.

[Spotlight]

Better to be inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in.

[Crew rest.]

Merry Christmas, Joe. :ok:

[adsyj]

I am happy you got your job back Joe.

The whole thing was an absolute F u c K u p.

If Joe was advised by the union and in fact his public statement were vetted and approved by the said union, then they are a joke. Surely we would expect our union to have some idea of the pilot agreement and if as has been reported the minute Joe signed his name as a line pilot rather that a Union rep he was in clear breach of his employment contract.

I expect better of our representatives, I agree with an earlier comment by LR 3. It was not his flight deck collegues who let Joe down it was AIPA. Not the first time a Union has given bad advice to a pilot or pilots in this industry is it boys and girls?. I also agree with Mr Hat and I have a feeling Joe may have lost at FWA.

A massive victory for Jetstar and a further kick in the guts to the pilots , who it would appear are represented by people with no clue of Industrial Relations.

I am not at Jetstar and in fact the actions of Jetstar , the pilot group and the loss of mainline flying would seem to indicate it will be while before i move to a right seat but i bear no real grudge.(I'm doing ok just accepting that i will unlikely make command)

As for the "statement" sickening. Reminds of me Pilots shot down in Desert Storm who were forced to make propoaganda statements by their captors. No blame on them they were scared for there lives.

Similar to Joe, he was gone and quite probably unemployable.

What do we do? I don't have a clue, but maybe Chimbu Chuck is right, just bend over and say thank you sir may I have another, thank you sir may I have another.

If you are reading this Joe, good luck to you but in future when it comes to advice on industrial tactics from your AIPA mates, measure twice and cut once.

[Keith Myath]

but they couldnt sack all 600 could they?

Balance, you think the Qantas group would not sack 600 pilots, study some history mate. Start with that infamous year in the late 80’s.

For everyone else, walk a mile in Joe’s shoes before you criticize. Joe wrote an article that was vetted by AIPA and AIPA assisted in the publication of said article with a Fairfax online outlet. Jetstar sacked Joe. To get an idea of where Joe was:

Cancel company sponsored ASIC.
Hand back car par passes / access cards.
Hand back uniform.
Hand back manuals.
Kiss goodbye any chance of working for any Aus based operator.
Register at centerlink for benefits.

It is unbelievable that there are pilots out there that are unhappy that Joe has been reinstated. Did you want him to be a martyr? What perceived cause did you want him to fight as an unemployable pilot? I reckon Brian McCarthy might have a few wise works for Joe if ever their paths cross.

Anger should be directed at AIPA for piss poor advice in the first place. It is sickening reading the latest missive from AIPA legal. I’m sure the multi billion-dollar corporation was ****ting themselves with the top gun lawyers AIPA had on their books. AIPA members that I know are not that naïve, Philip V.D.H needs to pull his head in. Sound advice in the first place would have prevented this mess in the first instance.

Were AIPA involved in the mediation meeting that took place on Friday? If not – WHY?? Was your priority to get Joe reinstated or was it to prove a point? Spending money on court cases is good for recruitment PR, win or lose. Who organized the mediation?

Lets just hypothesize for a moment – say the Jetstar pilots actually got their **** together for one week and walked out, are you telling me that the 2500 Qantas pilots wouldn’t operate extra services to carry the disrupted Jetstar passengers? Can you see how fanciful and naive this idea is?

Attacking Joe is pathetic grandstanding. Anyone who has the holier that thou attitude has an agenda that didn’t put the welfare of Joe first.

[scrubba]

KM,
Joe wrote an article that was vetted by AIPA and AIPA assisted in the publication of said article with a Fairfax online outlet.

Is that actually true? If so, who vetted it and who authorised the publication? The implication that AIPA was prepared to sacrifice a member to make some unidentified point is a very serious issue that I presume you will have the courage to follow up outside the PPRuNe shield of anonymity?

But in the main, I agree with your sentiments about the most recent events.

As for the public statement, only two sorts of people will notice it: first, the uninitiated who know nothing of the facts and who will have neither the wit nor the circumstances to make anything of it; and second, those who recognise the a typical "hostage survival" statement (typical of the middle east scenarios) and who have the wit to make nothing of it for itself but note the fire that created the smoke.

From what I understand of the situation as publicly available, Joe was technically defenceless. Morally, he was in a debatable position. Jetstar on the other hand appears to have played a sledgehammer hand, particularly in the face of the Senate Inquiry, which was technically defensible but a potential public relations disaster. Shooting a whistleblower in the face of Wilkie and Xenophon is a particular piece of brinkmanship that I am sure Boston Bruce will be reviewing with those who cleared him to pull the trigger, Messrs Clifford and Joyce.

Who won? Pragmatically, no one really does. Joe is employed again but probably is blackballed for command within the so-called merit system. Jetstar has reversed a bad decision by eating a little humble pie (suitably obfuscated by the hostage survival statement) and potentially diverted some of the impending heat about its employment climate in the Senate Inquiry. Qantas has probably avoided some heat over its offshoring strategy by getting its carrier of choice to back out of the limelight a little.

Did Joe's stand generate any supporting submissions to the Senate Inquiry? I guess we will have to wait and see. But I'm guessing that not too many people felt encouraged by Joe's lead, even when protected by Parliamentary privilege and the option of confidential or anonymous contributions.

I suspect that even fewer actually took a virtual walk in Joe's shoes and contemplated the options for when you find yourself in front of what should have been a crowd but turned out to be a lot of unidentified voices from the shadows. I reckon it would be a bit like a suicide bomber standing alone in the middle of the desert - who would really notice the sacrifice?

Joe, you tried to make the point and you have recovered as best as you could have hoped for. Thank you for your courage and please accept my respect for achieving a sensible outcome for you and your family.

[Capt Kremin]

For the misinformed who are bagging AIPA.....

*Joe wrote the original article without AIPA's knowledge or input.

* It was AIPA that got the article pulled from the SMH website in an attempt to minimize the damage.

* It was through the efforts of AIPA that Joe got his job back; nothing else, especially considering the situation he put himself in.

I started this thread with the title, Brave or.......?

Thanks to the efforts of the AIPA team I think the final epitaph to this thread should be Brave and Lucky....!

[SeldomFixit]

Kremin - factual, succinct, most importantly, 110% correct.

If you think conscience alone will level the playing fields in Australian Industrial matters - think again.

Brave AND Lucky.

[TIMA9X]

I started this thread with the title, Brave or.......?

Kremin, to your credit, you did, and all the facts/views are on there since this issue began.

Probably a good time for the MODS to merge this thread with "Brave or ......? to keep it all on track.:ok:

[Tidbinbilla]

Ask, and ye shall receive :8:}

[balance]

Well Keith, you and I might agree to disagree on a few points.

Firstly, let me say that Joe's reinstatement is a good thing, and again, I congratulate him on standing up and being heard in the first place. Having said that, it does appear from Capt K's post that Joe's original publication perhaps wasnt that sensible. Shed Dog has pretty much stated that all along.

For the record, I am VERY pleased that Joe has been reinstated. Gobbledock (in a very reasoned post) stated: "I would walk over desert covered in razors wearing no shoes to feed my family" and I wholheartedly agree. I would do the same for my family and I expect that Joe would for his. What I am not pleased with is the way he was reinstated. That statement was absolute shiite, and and embarassment to Joe, to AIPA, and indeed to Jetstar.

the Qantas group would not sack 600 pilots, study some history mate

A bit different here, I think. This isnt about a significant pay rise, this is and was about safety. The Qantas Group is NOT going to sack anybody over that, let alone 600 pilots. They would face a PR disaster. Who would be accountable? That hopeless CEO of Jetstar Aust? He comes across so badly on TV my screen almost cracked. Trouble is, 599 of the 600 Jetstar pilots are spineless cowards apparently, because we didn't hear peep out of them, so we will never know, will we?

Anger should be directed at AIPA for piss poor advice in the first place.

Well, apparently, all evidence to the contrary, because Joe did this without advice in the first place. If that is the case, one must ask themselves, why was AIPA left holding the baby, with not a peep from Joe's Jetstar collegues?

I'm angry. Not at Joe. At Jetstar. At Qantas. At the pathetic Australian Government. I've every right to be, because whilst we all sit around slapping each other on the back over Joe's reinstatement, Rome is burning, and rapidly.

Keith, given the last few posts, I wonder if you might care to reconsider your latest?

[theheadmaster]

People here critical of Joe and his statement clearly:

1. Don't know how the system works, and;

2. Don't know how the game is played.

If you listened to Joe's radio interviews, he clearly states that the article he wrote was also industrial. The type of statement Joe made to return to work was typical for the situation. Anyone who expected Joe to be reinstated without such an empty statement is not really thinking the issue through fully. The statement is simply a face saving exercise, and anyone with more than three working neurons in their head would see that. Having his job back will make his industrial efforts more effective than being a soon-forgotten sacked pilot. In a conflict situation, brinkmanship can lead to two losers.

[PPRuNeUser0198]

*Joe wrote the original article without AIPA's knowledge or input.

Joe explicitly stated in an interview the story he wrote was sent to AIPA for "editing" and review before it was published in the media.

So...is somebody lying then...

[LetsGoRated]

theheadmaster

Spot on! Great post, I cant wait for the "balanced" point of view!

[balance]

Try reading it again then LGR, you ignorant tosser.

Shed dog has had his post removed I see. Bit too controversial I'm guessing?

[Chimbu chuckles]

but maybe Chimbu Chuck is right, just bend over and say thank you sir may I have another, thank you sir may I have another.

Not at all what I said. You need to go back and read my posts again with a more discerning eye...and a lot less emotion. If you disagree with something I have said that is fine. I like spirited debate and would never in a million years suggest you don't have a right to an alternative view. I really don't appreciate being maligned over an incorrect perception of what you THINK I wrote.

The point of my posts on this issue were to try and point out what is worth fighting against and what is not. If you think you can or should fight against your, or any, employer creating a perfectly legal entity in another country then you will be severely disappointed every time. It will only stop hurting when you stop banging your head against that wall.

If on the other hand your employer tries to create an illegal/quasi legal entity within Australia in an effort to destroy your contractually agreed T&Cs then by all means deploy every legal recourse you have to stop that from happening. That very thing was mooted recently and stopped dead in its tracks in very short order because it flouted FWA regulations.

It didn't require any martyrs to do so.

I am REALLY happy Joe got his job back. After such a public affair it was his ONLY option to continue in the career he clearly loves.

Rail against the public statement of contrition? No - that is just how these things are done in the real world. Its that simple. If you don't like it well, ok - no statement would have bordered on managerial incompetence - its an utterly unrealistic expectation.

To suggest that 599 other J* pilots should have downed tools in support of JE is simply to deny reality. On what grounds - J* Singapore T&Cs?

You'd have to be joking.

I see no one suggesting JE's fellow AIPA members - all of them - should have walked off the job in support of JE in his brave crusade against this alleged serious safety issue.

Isn't that interesting.

[Skynews]

By the way skynews you don't have the authority to hang anyone...tool.
Which planet did you arrive from?

just a question. :rolleyes:

[Jabawocky]

The fact of the matter is....the points he raised, and we are told were being ignored internally hence his article, were actually genuine and serious.

How are they being dealt with now?

His printed article never said JQ were unsafe, it was more about the general trends in Industry. I did hear him on a radio interview explaining the issues of "promotion by means other than seniority" and how that can have a negative impact on safety culture.

So now the dust has settled and they have kissed and made up, will these genuine concerns/issues be openly dealt with by JQ?

As an outsider looking in, it seems that their internal process may not have been working hence his actions. :confused:

Be interesting to see what comes out of it all. Maybe....just maybe it was all worth it?

[Mr. Hat]

Close the thread. Yesterdays's news. Didn't make a dent. Move on.

[adsyj]

Chuck

My sentence construction was probably a bit off in my previous post, I wasn't so much having a go at you personally or what you had argued but more so as to where I feel employment T & C are heading in this industry.

Additionally when I read your posts on the matter it took me a while to digest and really understand where you were coming from. As a result my own thinking on the matter changed slightly. I cannot say that I agree with you completely but certainly you have provided well written and thought provoking counter points.

My view remains that it is an act of corporate bastardry by Jetstar. As you rightly argue what Jetstar are proposing is within Jetstars rights. I still view it as an Australian Company attempting to improve profits by moving Australian jobs offshore and driving down salaries. In any industry workers would be up in arms and you would expect trade unions to be jumping all over the issue.

On a recent trip I did have a very good discussion on this matter with a Captain I respect and your posts were specifically mentioned. He, like you pointed out to that I am naive in matters of industrial relations and I accept that this is maybe the case. :*

As I said earlier certainly nothing personal was meant. Like you I love a good debate but unfortuanetly I think (and I hope) I am a better with the spoken word rather than the written.

Cheers

[psycho joe]

The point of my posts on this issue were to try and point out what is worth fighting against and what is not. If you think you can or should fight against your, or any, employer creating a perfectly legal entity in another country then you will be severely disappointed every time. It will only stop hurting when you stop banging your head against that wall.



If you base every sparring match on squaring a ledger of legal points then you run the risk of never showing up to a fight or constantly backing away and becoming completely irrelevant (AFAP).

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Sometimes making a noise and raising public awareness is worth a bloody nose. Though in this case it should never have been left up to an individual.

[Chimbu chuckles]

adsyj - :ok:

Psycho joe

If you base every sparring match on squaring a ledger of legal points then you run the risk of never showing up to a fight or constantly backing away and becoming completely irrelevant (AFAP).

And if you don't you run the risk of having no credibility when the really serious issues arise.

[Gnadenburg]

If it's what Joe wanted, I'm pleased he got his job back.

But it is just Jetstar and the pay and conditions are modest.

You have said your piece, make a further statement and use the outfit as a job search allowance.

[Ero-plano]

So who pays the legal bill when a person/persons admit their guilt and have done the wrong thing by their company and fellow crew members?

The guilty person/persons or the associated members?

Don't shoot this down, just a question.......

Laikim da man bilong pait :E

[Horatio Leafblower]

I still view it as an Australian Company attempting to improve profits by moving Australian jobs offshore and driving down salaries. In any industry workers would be up in arms and you would expect trade unions to be jumping all over the issue.

..and yet the banks have moved major back-office roles offshore, the telecommunications companies have slashed THOUSANDS of Australian jobs and moved them offshore, the IT industry relies on offshore personnel, the Textile, Clothing and Footwear industry is a shadow of its former self, the Car industry has gone...

...and while some radio talk-show hosts grumble, rant and rail about it (when the mood takes them) the general public still haven't stopped using their phones or buying Chinese shoes.

It's hard to believe it in OUR industry though :*

[Jack Ranga]

The facts of the matter are that it is an Australian company offshoring to minimise and avoid paying tax. And to minimise Australian workers conditions. It's no different to what the ATO is ACCUSING people like Paul Hogan and the like of doing. He stood up and said f@ck you! He had his departure from Australia blocked. He didn't back down in the face of massive legal bills to defend his position. The government is complicit. They choose their battles in line with which industry they want to break.

It may be legal, but it is IMMORAL and UNETHICAL.

Pilots may not see the value in what they do, day to day, but I do. I just don't get why SOME pilots behave the way they do?

(only two beers so far :E I'm driving :cool:)

[psycho joe]

Quote:
If you base every sparring match on squaring a ledger of legal points then you run the risk of never showing up to a fight or constantly backing away and becoming completely irrelevant (AFAP).

And if you don't you run the risk of having no credibility when the really serious issues arise.

That's what the US military believed about Guerrilla soldiers in Vietnam and still do now in Iraq & Afghanistan. It was Sir Lawrence of Arabia that explained to the British (re Afghanistan) that an uprising of only 2% of the population would ultimately be successful if passively supported by 98% of the population.

The days of conventional warfare are over and that's why the US military, although the most powerful force in the world, will ultimately lose any non conventional conflict to an inferior force.

So who has lost credibility here? J.E.?, AIPA?, Jet*?

In the court of public opinion the Jet * management have acted like petulant children (It's my F:mad:king bat and my F:mad:ing ball and my F:mad:king rules and you're out.) This reaction has turned a non story into something of further interest in the media. I've happened to meet several journalists recently who have not only followed the saga, but have identified the key points on which Pilots are unhappy and taken the time to investigate further. These are the same sort of journo's that we normally delight in calling ignorant hacks.

Do these actions effect immediate change? of course not. But the media and the general public are aware that all is not well at granny's house. The more that J* management try to push their Pan Asian whatever, the more it seems on the nose.

We all know that the days of spectacular industrial victories by frontal assault, like red coats standing on a hill are well and truly over. There was never going to be a fairy tale ending to this story, and I don't believe that anyone involved believed that there would be. But you have to admit that in this little story, the wolf got bitch slapped pretty badly.

Make no mistake the JE story and the Pan Asian Debacle will reappear as a footnote for future anti J* articles. Especially news articles about "really serious issues".


.

[fridge magnet]

So who pays the legal bill when a person/persons admit their guilt and have done the wrong thing by their company and fellow crew members?

That would be part of the commercial settlement decision and if any money was involved it will be confidential. I suspect the only big cost in this case so far was the damaging publicity for Jet* and some serious stress for Joe. Maybe cost them both more than they can bear but I suspect Joe had the upper hand as he had already achieved his goal.

I wonder if it ruined some managers' Christmas having the guy who caused it all back on the payroll. :D It gives me a warm glow to imagine it.

[Olive61]

Brave and VERY lucky!!

A very interesting thread indeed. Joes original article contained only one indirect reference to safety ( I didn't hear the radio interviews, and the rationale for his sacking was the printed article). The rest of the article was about the offshore situation and the terms and conditions associated with these moves. Why Joe painted a large bullseye on his chest and exposed himself is a question unlikely to have a simple answer, and unlikely to be disclosed by Joe or AIPA. If the points Joe chose to make were an AIPA view, and if the content was expressed as an AIPA press release, we may have seen a more relevant outcome. As an industry issue, the matter is now dead (for quite some time), and any attempt to bring it back into public focus in a structured and representative way, will be ridiculed. J* management are now armed with Joes retraction, which can be trotted out at will. Never confuse public perception with pilot passion. The end result is that the issues he raised are now completely lost to view, and at considerable cost to the individual and the pilot body at large.

[ANCDU]

Spot on Olive61. Unfortunately a huge opportunity lost. Whatever JE intentions all was lost with the release of that joint press release. Its good he has his job back but it has given j* management a huge weapon to use against its pilot body if the unions bring up any issues.What the public see is basically a union representative saying he was wrong, there are no issues with j*. Why his fellow pilots at J* didn't support him i find dissapointing, and this will ultimatley hurt all of us in the future because it says J* pilots are basically happy with what they have got!

Maybe they are :ugh:

[The Kelpie]

What amazed me was that the joint press release was focussed on the comments on safety rather than the reason he was sacked - a breach of his employment contract!!

Surely any reinstatement and the reasoning for such should have been based on the issue of his employment contract!

[Olive61]

Almost all of recorded history has been written by the victors.

[Walter E Kurtz]

....in this little story, the wolf got bitch slapped pretty badly.
You're joking right??

The retraction and reinstatement can be nothing other than total mission failure for disgruntled pilots within Jetstar. Future arm wrestling will be from a position of complete impotence.

If you dont like it just leave. Stop whining and bugger off.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Walter,

Don't waste the energy, IMHO Joe got well and truely ass raped in public, yet they see it as a victory.

Birds of a feather.....

[Gas Bags]

The man went out on a limb, totally unsupported, and without sound advice went public with what amounted to a voicing of his opinion regarding HIS employer and their future expansion.

What the hell did he think would happen!!!

So many posts go on about the mans eloquance, and how he was merely voicing the concerns of the masses. Oh, and that he is right in what he stated, in the press.

Tell me any industry or employer that would tolerate this kind of behaviour. He deserved to be sacked for what he did. The fact that what he did was wrong is evidenced in the total lack of numbers from within that stood up to be counted and follow in his footsteps.

He might be eloquent, but he is clearly a fool. Eloquence and intelligence are two very different things.

GB

[fridge magnet]

Tell me any industry or employer that would tolerate this kind of behaviour.

Medical industry just to begin. Doctors and nurses often whistleblow about poor administration affecting patient care.
He deserved to be sacked for what he did.
Well it appears even Jet* had a change of opinion on that one. They didn't rehire him out of the goodness of their hearts.
The fact that what he did was wrong is evidenced in the total lack of numbers from within that stood up to be counted and follow in his footsteps.

The beggining of this comment has no relationship to the end. Reads like a rant. The only numbers that count were the numbers of members that contribute and empower the association that provided him the services to deal with the situation.

[Gas Bags]

OK fridgey, over to you. Put your name to a similar article if you believe it was ok, then see what happens.

How exactly does what this guy did fall under the banner of being a "whistleblower"? There is nothing secret about Jetstars plans, they are out in the open. Are you trying to say that I can write anything I like as long as I hide behind the "whistleblower" name and expect no consequences. If thats what you think then you are not in this reality.

I have seen guys sacked for theft and gotten their jobs back by union intervention. The fact that Jetstar gave his job back does not mean he was right, it merely means that his reinstatement was negotiated with the union, and all negotiations are give and take.

My post was not a rant, but what I should have made clearer is that there are ways and there are means. The guy was a member of a union and he should have let them carry the flag instead of getting himself sacked. Whether he is right or he is wrong is irrelevant. Like I said, What did he expect to happen after authoring such an inflammatory article? Surely he had to understand that it would be read by all and sundry and that the reaction from Senior management of the Qantas group would be diametrically opposed to the reaction from the pilot masses, and as such they would focus in on the author.

He is very lucky to get his job back, but if it was me I would not have accepted those terms and put my name to the final newspiece. I would have fallen on my sword, moved on to other things, and held my head high.

GB

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

If ever there was / is a case for ALL pilots to belong to an effective union, perhaps / preferably - the SAME UNION - then, IMHO, this is a 'prime example'.

Having been a Union Rep dealing with the 'F*^# you' attitudes of 'some', then I can heartily endorse the suggestion.

It worked for us, in our time.....

Think 'outside the square'...CPSU..? TWU..? Whichever can do the BEST for you...

Cheers :ok::ok:

[fridge magnet]

How exactly does what this guy did fall under the banner of being a "whistleblower"?
Wikipedia says
A whistleblower is a person who raises a concern about alleged wrongdoing occurring in an organization or body of people. Joe made it quite clear what he thinks is wrong with the Jet* plan.

OK fridgey, over to you. Put your name to a similar article if you believe it was ok, then see what happens.
I wouldn’t put my name to an article for a few reasons:
- I don’t work for Jet* and didn’t have an appreciation of what was going on until Joe hit the press.
- I never would have imagined it to be an effective strategy. But Jet*’s uncool response and Joe and AIPA’s resulting media coverage proved I would have been wrong about that. I would have expected a cool and confident response from Jet* and the issue to die very quickly.
- Joe has already done it! For me or his colleagues to follow it up would look very much like illegal industrial action which would definately be a bad move.
I have seen guys sacked for theft and gotten their jobs back by union intervention. The fact that Jetstar gave his job back does not mean he was right, it merely means that his reinstatement was negotiated with the union, and all negotiations are give and take.

Its not the union intervention and give and take that gets their job back. Its the expertise/force the union brings that highlights the employeees rights and the employers obligations UNDER THE LAW. The company eats humble pie because it costs them less than proceeding. QF have a long history of losing unfair dismissal cases for being unreasonable or harsh.

Anyone who wants to increase their understanding of unfair dismissal law and why Joe probably got his job back might like the following light reading. http://www.lexisnexis.com.au/aus/products/samples/documents/ELB_13_8.pdf

He is very lucky to get his job back, but if it was me I would not have accepted those terms and put my name to the final newspiece. I would have fallen on my sword, moved on to other things, and held my head high.
I'm glad Joe chose to stay. His public statement was probably necesarry in law - one of the tests in unfair dismissal is whether a relationship can reasonably continue between the parties. He will be useful to help keep the industry sane. Hopefully you'll move onto another industry with an attitude like that - your not much use here!

[Ero-plano]

Fridge Magnet


That would be part of the commercial settlement decision and if any money was involved it will be confidential. I suspect the only big cost in this case so far was the damaging publicity for Jet* and some serious stress for Joe.


Seeings as Joe admitted guilt, why doesn't Joe pay his OWN legal bill rather than the AIPA membership? Setting this type of precedent where union members take the company to court (on the union memberships tab) can become quite costly.


Bilong longwe ples pailat

[fridge magnet]

Seeings as Joe admitted guilt, why doesn't Joe pay his OWN legal bill rather than the AIPA membership? Setting this type of precedent where union members take the company to court (on the union memberships tab) can become quite costly.
Ultimately a question for AIPA. But i think you have it the wrong way around. Jet* took action against Joe (they sacked him), and AIPA defended him which is their constitutional responsibility to defend members in such circumstances. If you are a member and get caught with pants down they will do the same for you - even if you have made mistakes.

Your assesment that Joe admitted quilt is wrong anyway. Here is what he said.

I never intended my comments to bring into question the sound and proactive safety culture that exists within Jetstar. “I apologise for any inference that might have been drawn from my comments that I was questioning Jetstar’s safety culture because that was certainly not my intention. “I acknowledge that I made public statements in regards to Jetstar’s safety system and its safe flying operations, its Pan Asian network growth strategy and the level of remuneration of Jetstar Pilots
employed in Singapore that could mislead the public and had the potential to damage Jetstar’s reputation. “This is something I did not intend and which I regret doing and Jetstar has accepted my apology for this.
“Jetstar does have appropriate avenues for line Pilots like myself to effectively communicate to all levels of the airline. I am now aware of the best and most effective way to do this.”

Note the language. He never admitted that what he did was wrong or he should have been sacked. He apologised and showed regret but actually said very little. He did not retract anything, just said he could have misled the public which was not his intention. He would do well in Canberra!

[Ero-plano]

I read English like any other other third generation aussie SMH reader. He admitted guilt either way you look at it, whether it was "Canberra" style or Cabramatta style.

I agree AIPA need to have a look at whose going to pick-up the tab.

[Arnold E]

I agree AIPA need to have a look at whose going to pick-up the tab.
Where are you comming from? Your not fair dinkum are you. Your suggesting that a person should join a union and then have that union only pay for any action that it sees fit to pay???
I smell a rat here.:=

[clear to land]

Arnold, you aren't the only one to smell a rat. New joiner too. The Union consists of the members, and is for the members (even if that means defending them for actions they took that you may/may not agree with). Mr Eakins should have the full support of his union for any action he did as long as it was not illegal according to law.

[Macchi 408]

I agree, this thread is an interesting one to read. Joe could have done things much differently - releasing a statement with AIPA would have had much more weight. But if every single one of us put ourselves in Joe's shoes, getting his job back would have been #1 priority. It's easy to say "he should have been sacked", but when you have a family to feed and care for that job was his security.

Olive61, you have got it in one. It'll be a while before we can fight this again, J* management are probably laughing now that they can use this as their weapon. :ugh:

M408

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

. Olive61, you have got it in one. It'll be a while before we can fight this again, J* management are probably laughing now that they can use this as their weapon

This is not right guys. Joe has landed some heavy blows and if management want to continue fighting and use the statement to defend their position they will come off second best.

Now is the time to press these immoral actions of Jetstar. If you don't wages, conditions and standards will continue to be lowered and many Aussie pilots will be put out of work.

[Normasars]

ALAEA,

What you are proposing takes initiative, courage, cohesion and unity. Something foreign to OZ pilots.

This horse has bolted. Pilots in OZ are screwed forever. There was a chance and the opportunity was lost.

[ALAEA Fed Sec]

Our members felt the same a few years back. As it stands today, we may not win every battle but we sure as hell will go down fighting if they want to continue destroying our industry.

[Normasars]

The FUNDAMENTAL difference between Ngineers and Pilots is this. Pilots are prepared to fly for next to nudda because they LOVE to fly. Pilots in GA have forever flown for nothing or very close to it; sweeping hangar floors; being office boys or any type of lackie job that the "boss" could and would exploit them for. This mindset is then carried further to the "airlines" where said individuals are prepared to sell their grandmothers at the expense of colleagues in order to park their arse in the front seat of a multicrew aircraft.
Airline Managers know this and play on this FACT. Eventually there is nothing left to sell or give and we are left with the dysfunctional industry that we have today.
Things will change sometime. They will have too. But for me, the only thing that I can see that will turn it around is a smoking hole or two in the ground.

[Dark Knight]

ALAEA

Joe landed nothing copping naught but a noisy bloody nose in the process as did his Union.

You rightly suggest solidarity is of essence however, the last two and a bit decades clearly demonstrate this lot have little, if any backbone, being quite prepared to sell their grandmothers for sixpence.

[fridge magnet]

This mindset is then carried further to the "airlines"
Rubbish. Pilots behave like they do (and different to engineers) because this is the type of personality (on the average) that is attracted to piloting. Expecting pilots to change their personality en mass is as useful as telling a depressed person to cheer up.

G/A type operators have always made hay out of pilots weaknesses. Pilots are not in a position to practice any effective disobedience in the pointy end because their arse is strapped to the machine hurtling through the air. In G/A pilots cope by trying to move on as quickly as possible and hopefully end up with a quality operator as quick as possible. It has nothing to do with Grandmothers!

IT IS AIRLINE MANAGERS that have decided to carry the mindset of GA management into airlines - not the pilots. Point the finger at the right people. Our idiot managers think that there is no cost benefit to the quality methods developed by their predecessors. I think you are right that nothing short of smoking hole in the ground will turn this around. Idiot airline management appears to viral and highly contagious.

Good on Joe for having a go at pointing a few things out.

[Dark Knight]

Should one read their history of management/pilot industrial relations it will be clear it was always thus including going back to the very beginning in the thirties.

There has been a time when pilot salaries and working conditions improved markedly, pilots had some semblance of control of their daily working lives with good salaries. This was achieved with good forward thinking leadership, a leadership with an ability to adapt supported with strong, united membership support.

Airline Management (but not all) always attempted to undermine this solidarity with little success until the days of Lorenzo, Braniff and Continental from whence the management tactics of attack and division spread accompanied by de-regulation coupled with Government(s) collusion and support.

Membership support was divided from within allowing management to gain the upper hand fully exploiting the division, animosity and hatred between the groups and individual pilots. A situation management fully exploitis today and will continue to exploit until a fully, totally dedicated, comprehensively pilot group stands up to them come hell or high water.

Whilst the sentiment`he had to get his job back, a job he to support and care and support his family' are expressed management sits back, relaxes, another cigar and glass of claret whilst they review the bottom line.

Joe should have either been slaughtered as the sacrificial lamb on the alter (which in reality is exactly what is happening) or his `fellow' hard done by pilots should have stood management on their asses telling them until normality is restored, nothing moves!

However,with their demonstrated history, it ain't gunna happen with this lot!

[ratpoison]

Dark Knight,
Somebody buy that man a drink. Took the words right out of the horses mouth :D

[KRUSTY 34]

Truer words have never been spoken Dark Knight.

Currently reading A FEDERATION OF PILOTS. Absolutely compulsory reading for any professional aviator IMHO. I particularily like the statement from the PREFACE: "Since the organisation's formation in 1938, the federation has fought to protect pilots from the exploitation that arises simply because they love their work."

This of course goes to the heart of much of our problems, but as the pilots from the 30's eventually came to grips with, to be a true professional you have to grow up some time, and deny the enemy the ammunition with which they will gladly use against you. Ironically it was the misdeeds by managements of the past that became the catalyst for change. Whether or not todays generation of pilots have the "ticker" of their forebears, remains to be seen. I suspect we will come through, but only if the mistakes of the past are not forgotten, lest we be doomed to repeat them!