Merged: Joe Eakins: Brave?....or.... [Archive]

RAD_ALT_ALIVE

11th Oct 2010, 11:19

Jo - Outstanding! I was blown away a couple weeks ago when I listened to you, and I'm amazed once again at your passion, intellect and integrity. It's an honor to be counted as one of your colleagues.

Ken B, and AB4 - dinosaurs is the first word that comes to mind about your pathetic comments; dinosaurs because you live in the past; sure, Jetstar's inception was certainly bad for most QF pilots. But please tell me that you don't seriously believe that non-jet pilots should have been asked to forgo the opportunity to fly for JQ when the jobs were offered?! Several COMs ago, AIPA didn't realise the ramification of their attitude towards JQ and all that went with it. Sadly, we are now seeing the result of 'too-little-too-late'.

What the two of you (and the ever-diminishing like-minded amongst you) are too 'archaic-thinking' to realise, is that the past must now be firmly relegated to it's appropriate place; the past!

What you appear to fail to realise with your 'hypocrisy/hypocritical' comment is that JQ is - and always was - a test case, whose 'strategic initiatives' (management speak, not mine) will probably find fruition in future pilot EBAs of mainline if allowed to go unchecked.

So, rather than being smug 'I-told-you-so's', it might be more productive if you came onboard at this critical time. If this goes the company's way - well...let's just say that there will be no future for you to be smug about in future.

Now, more than ever in the last long while, it's time to show solidarity in whatever way works for the individual, while being obvious to the many.

neville_nobody

11th Oct 2010, 12:09

But please tell me that you don't seriously believe that non-jet pilots should have been asked to forgo the opportunity to fly for JQ when the jobs were offered?! Several COMs ago, AIPA didn't realise the ramification of their attitude towards JQ and all that went with it. Sadly, we are now seeing the result of 'too-little-too-late'.

So using that logic why should someone who is willing to go live in Singapore and accept the deal be stopped from doing so just because it undercuts Jetstar conditions? A hypothetical person who accepts that deal is only doing to Jetstar pilots what Jetstar did to QF pilots. I believe the AIPA decision was somewhat influenced by a particular president who managed to benefit out of the deal.

I believe we should do all we can to stop the rot but Jetstar pilots need to understand why some QF drivers might be a little bemused by the whole turn of events.

Autobrakes4

11th Oct 2010, 20:34

I'll tell you what's also hypocritical. Not too many Jetstar pilots were willing to join AIPA at first when Jetstar was first thought of. Now that they're feeling a bit threatened by their bosses actions, they're joining in droves!

Very greedy. :mad:

This bloke is feeling threatened about his work reducing and going to other entities. I didn't see him worrying when he was taking the work from us. If the shoe fits...

OpsNormal

11th Oct 2010, 21:06

This thread is full of what is most rotten in this industry. Grown men and women from positions of trust within our industry blaming everyone else for their lot and being as petty and as juvenile as they can about someone who should be applauded and supported for drawing a line in the sand.

No wonder our industry is up s#!t creek when even QF pilots start whining and moaning about everyone else's capitulation instead of their own. Yes I am very aware of what went on thank you very much... however it is always going to be the public attitudes of :mad: 's like Ken B and Autobrakes that tar many really good people in QF with a that same brush.

Oh, and Ken.... its hypocrisy not Hypricosy, obviously the standard wasn't all that high when you applied.

Regards,

OpsN.;)

Popgun

11th Oct 2010, 21:10

Yes, brave...and constructive.

I think we will look back on this period and be VERY glad that people like Joe had the courage to stick their head above the parapet for something they passionately believed in.

On ya Joe!

PG

Mr. Hat

11th Oct 2010, 21:11

My goodness Joseph what a well written article.

Oxidant

11th Oct 2010, 21:46

This thread is full of what is most rotten in this industry. Grown men and women from positions of trust within our industry blaming everyone else for their lot and being as petty and as juvenile as they can about someone who should be applauded and supported for drawing a line in the sand.

No wonder our industry is up s#!t creek when even QF pilots start whining and moaning about everyone else's capitulation instead of their own. Yes I am very aware of what went on thank you very much... however it is always going to be the public attitudes of 's like Ken B and Autobrakes that tar many really good people in QF with a that same brush.

Bravo!

May I humbly suggest, that some of the previous posters, read this again, carefully?
Once they have, they might like to reflect on their own maturity & think where the industry is going & not where it has been.
For, at the moment the divisive bickering & lack of unity is exactly why terms & conditions are going where they are.......

gordonfvckingramsay

11th Oct 2010, 22:57

Hear hear.

UnderneathTheRadar

11th Oct 2010, 23:03

Reluctantly joining this thread - congratulations on a well written article.

To those who consider that moving Jetstar jobs to Singapore is just the next evolution of the creation of Jetstar itself, please consider:

a) it is undeniable that Jetstar has created more demand in the market than would otherwise have existed and hence more flying jobs (irrespective of conditions)

b) Jetstar (in it's original form) created Australian jobs. Jetstar Singapore, once devoid of Australian pilots will simply crew from SE Asia into the Australian domestic market.

Fundamental differences. Please stop shooting yourselves and each other in the foot.

UTR

Nuthinondaclock

12th Oct 2010, 00:15

Who allegedly did what to whom previously is quite irrelevant. We find ourselves as a group where we are now and if we want to save our profession from ruin we have to forget about previous division and look forward. Harping on about perceived ironies and hypocrisies is pointless and does nothing but play into the hands of the Managers and ‘Consultants’ that concoct these plays. The term cutting off your nose despite your face springs to mind. It’s time to let that crap go and look forward. The good news here is that I believe the majority are and it’s normal that we will always get a couple of posters who lack the maturity to think bigger.

Ps: Well done Joseph.

A. Le Rhone

12th Oct 2010, 00:35

Well said Joe - eloquent and concise.

People like Ken Borough and Autobrakes 4, yes you might have valid points BUT IT IS IN THE PAST. I don't much like the pilots from 1989 because they interrupted my planned career but that was long ago.

TIME TO MOVE ON.

We need more succinct, calm and rational voices like Joseph to fix the future. These traits are what our profession is supposedly renowned for. Learn from the past but don't dwell on it.

Mega-orders and too few experienced pilots make for a wonderful scenario for us now. But perpetually rambling on about past ills (no matter how justified) is absolutely futile. Anonymous sniping at colleagues on PPRuNe is exactly what those who try to control you would wish for.

Intelligent and concerted PR media-bites like Josephs are exactly what is needed now and on a continued and persistent basis. The PR damage to managers who try to undermine years of accumulated Australian aviation safety-culture to fatten corporate profits and CEO's wallets is powerful.

Indeed I see Joe's letter as part of a bigger public service. The media howled (correctly) when the Garuda crash killed their own. Why do we then even consider allowing non Australian-trained pilots to fly Australian airliners? Having experienced first-hand the relatively poor standards of many foreign aviation jurisdictions I believe we have a duty to highlight this to innocent Australian passengers who otherwise know no differently. Why should it take more Garuda-type crashes to make this point? And shame on these managers who wish to go down this path solely to further undermine your salaries.

Autobrakes4

12th Oct 2010, 00:40

The expression is "cutting off your nose to spite your face" Shakespeare!

The past is relevant. I just can't get past this guys hypocrisy! It's all about the "me" generation.

Quick let's join AIPA, we're getting screwed. It's funny how the screwer becomes the "screwee"! Or what goes around comes around! :E

Mr Pilot 2007

12th Oct 2010, 01:08

Quick let's join AIPA, we're getting screwed. It's funny how the screwer becomes the "screwee"! Or what goes around comes around! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

This is why it should be pointed out to those considering accepting j* Sin contracts, that they are screwing their own future and if they cannot crew this 'sham' base with Aussie crews, they should not be allowed to employ foreigners (unless it is a Sin based company with Sin AOC and no rights to operate any domestic legs within Aus).

With no award in Sin, those accepting this contract will likely be screwed in the future when j* Sin introduce a 'B' scale contract lowering their own pay at contract renewal.

Im sure they will get little sympathy.

404 Titan

12th Oct 2010, 01:23

Autobrakes4 & Ken Borough

FFS you are doing managements job for them. Divide and conquer. I was as critical about JQ and DJ contracts and the people taking them when they first came out as you but even I can see it solves absolutely nothing harping on about the past. Get over it. To solve what is happening now we need to look to the future and work together as a unified group, not a bunch of bickering school children stuck in the past. :ugh:

pilotbc69

12th Oct 2010, 01:23

Ineresting insigts,

I have known Mr. Eakins for years and can certainly vouch for his integrity as well as his intelligence. In person he has the same passion, commitment and vocabulary as the article. While it is unfortunate that the terms and conditions aren't what they were 10 years ago, or 10 years before that, or even 10 years before that, but what we can do is change what they will be 10 years from now. Rather than winge about the current state of affairs as we all do, Joe is fighting to improve the future, not only for himself but for all of us.

Upper management has done a wonderful job at getting us to fight amongst ourselves, thereby dispersing our energy from root of the poblems and effectively taking them out of the ring. What Joe is proposing is finally standing side by side

I gladly put my future in Joe's hands and will back the decisions that he makes, I am glad that his voice is heard and that so many agree with what is said.

The Green Goblin

12th Oct 2010, 01:27

Well done that man!

P.S To the white rat brigade, stop bitching and moaning about the past. I'm not saying to forget, but you should put it aside as this turn of events will directly affect you too.

It won't be too long before Jetstar will replace you on all but the Kangaroo and Cityflyer routes. Once this transition is complete, the rollers will be out painting the tails red and the bodies white with the real end goal complete. The Qantas brand is far more powerful than Jetstar and the Jetstar brand was only ever created to bypass legacy conditions.

Grow a set and join the fight to protect your current and future career aspirations and conditions.

Nuthinondaclock

12th Oct 2010, 01:30

Autobrakes4,
The past is relevant for the writing of history books and so we don’t repeat mistakes. Not recognizing the situation we are in and continuing to hold a grudge for a perceived ill to the detriment of yourself and your profession is ignoring history. Please show me how this can help any of us and what your ideas are to stop the off-shoring of jobs.

If it’s all about the ‘Me’ generation then we’re all included because there are Jet* Pilots aged from their 20’s through to their 60’s.

Career Realist

12th Oct 2010, 01:39

You t*ssers harping on about Mainline pilots needing to support their j* brethen or have their careers undercut need a reality check. For anyone who has joined mainline after about mid 2000, there is no career left! 10 years in the company will not get you a RH seat in the 330. Shorthaul pilots have watched their flying evaporate over the last 5 years.

AIPA hasn't been able to protect the pay and conditions of mainline pilots, so good luck with them stopping the rot at J*. Mr Eakins may be a lovely bloke, but he's got NFI!

The Green Goblin

12th Oct 2010, 01:40

Nuthinondaclock,

You wrote Despite your face, it's actually to spite your face.

It's an appropriate saying for the situation however :p

m-dot

12th Oct 2010, 01:53

Well done Joe.

We should all support this man. He is intelligent, articulate and is not scared to say what we are all thinking.

Anyone who doesn't understand the content or reasons behind his post are either bot affected or perhaps don't completely comprehend the ramifications of this change in tactics by the airlines (Jetstar escpescially).

Nuthinondaclock

12th Oct 2010, 03:43

Green Goblin,

Yup, my bad. Corrected by Autobrakes4 already. :ok:

Keg

12th Oct 2010, 04:56

P.S To the white rate brigade, stop bitching and moaning about the past. I'm not saying to forget, but you should put it aside...

There are a significant number of us who have put it aside already. The 50% of QF crew in the crowd at the meetings in August and September are good evidence that we understand the implications.

What gets forgotten though is that many QF drivers saw this coming a long time before J* crew did. In fact, a long time before many of the current J* crew were even employed by J*. Many QF drivers argued long and hard for pilot unity on this forum even as numerous Impulse/ Jetstar crew gloated in the early days about undermining our pay and conditions and reducing the career prospects that existed at that time for QF crew.

Even as the J* widebody EBA variation was put forwarded many QF crew argued FOR the J* crew that they could do much, much better. We indicated that QF crew wouldn't be taking jobs or promotions from any current J* employee and that we were after a seat at the table. When the quick promotions and payrises (albeit smaller than what they could and should have been) were on the table QF drivers were again ignored and excluded by the JPC and J* crew. I recall J* crew of the time gloating on this forum about their quick promotions onto an international long haul widebody aircraft and how the QF dinosaur was going to a slow and inexorable death.

So, we find ourself in the current day with the QF CEO doing to J* pilots precisely what QF drivers warned would occur a number of years ago unless there was pilot unity.

I'm glad that finally the pilots are beginning to show a united front. I'm glad that the crew to J* who have signed on since QF bought Impulse have realised that the 'golden age' that they thought they were signing on (quick promotions, the 'at least it's better than the $45K I was on in GA) was a smokescreen for continuing to lower the bar even further.

So sure, let's move on from the past and I'll say the same words that I've been saying on PPRUNE since I joined it. Pilot unity is the key. Until we stop seeing each other as the enemy we're doomed. So we'll leave behind the past when many Impulse/ J* crew viewed QF crew as their enemy. I'm thrilled that the majority of J* crew now view QF crew differently to those early days. Perhaps had wiser heads prevailed back in those early dayss we'd be 7-9 years in front of where we are now.

ANCDU

12th Oct 2010, 06:11

Well said Keg :D , well actually something that needed to be said. Time to move on i agree.

apache

12th Oct 2010, 07:20

ACDU...
i disagree.
All keg is saying is "I told you so" with no facts to back it up!
Generally, in the past i have not disagreed or even bothered to reply to this, as I am not either a JQ or QF pilot, I have however sat back and watched this all unfold.
I WAS offered a JQ position many moons ago, but turned them down.
Whilst this is a many sided debate, what i have seen from observing the last few years is:
1/ IMPULSE pilots wanted to join AIPA ... but AIPA said NO
2/IMPULSE became JETSTAR
3/EVERYONE else in the industry could see that JETSTAR was founded and funded to erode QF terms and conditions..... except QF pilots.
4/QF pilots, to this day STILL believe that QF management will "do the right thing" by them, and that JQ pay is a LONG way off.
5/JQ pilots are have been doing the right thing, by them, but have been shafted by management again, as they do not, and have not formed a UNITED BODY with any backbone..... yet.
6/JQ and QF pilots are blaming anybody but themselves for the current situation. IE "anyone who signs on to the JQ sin terms and conditions is a scab" ...... whereas, in reality, to do so is a HUGE payrise and increase in life expectancy for ANY OZ GA pilot.

Maybe we need to look at GA, and say why is JQ sin or JQ NZ SOOOOOOO fricking attractive??? whereas in reality it is just another bumf$ck with 20$ more per week?

can you REALLY blame the guys and gals who have slogged it out in GA for 3-10 yrs for taking a 100% payrise AND getting "stable" rosters as well as flying more reliable equipment AND not having to pay for jepps renewals/ASIC card costs/CIR renewals??????

the rot started LONG LONG AGO. The new hires are signing on for $80k plus. they work 18 days a month with the opportunity to earn an extra $800 per day..... IF they are lucky enough to be called on a day off.
to work in the TOP END of GA, flying ,MAYBE, a metro or PA31.... you would be on a MAX of $45k ..... with the possibility of earning $$$SFA if you want to work more.there are NO terms and or conditions in GA. there is NO stability or guarantees in rostering. there is NO guarantee that you will still have a job in 3-6 months!!! and yet we blame the GA jock for accepting substandard Terms and conditions, that have been AGREED to but current pilots?
seriously..... put yerself in the position of GA pilot, who has been shafted for 5 years. NEVER been paid more than 600 per week(max), take home, but has to continually save $$$ to pay for the next renewal or Jepps subscription.

HAVE we all forgotten how hard GA is?????

the problem NOW lies NOT with the new recruits..... but with the established bunch who have CONTINUALLLy shown ZERO fortitude or backbone. who have buckled at every management request, and even those who have denied that JQ pilots should be represented by a UNITED QF GROUP pilot body.

SERIOUSLY.... look back to YOUR time in GA and ask yourself, then answer HONESTLY.... would YOU join JQ on 80k with ****ehouse terms and conditions? or stay in GA on 45k, with ZERO terms and conditions??????

who do you now blame for THIS??????

BOTTOM end should be, and should have been looked after a lot better LONG before this ever happened.

Keg

12th Oct 2010, 09:41

i disagree.
All keg is saying is "I told you so" with no facts to back it up!

With respect, you couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not into the 'I told you so' game. i'm pointing out the history of the majority of QF drivers on this forum. I can't be bothered to search back through my posts to find it but I recall discussing the pilot unity issue on a semi regular basis. I know that the other QF drivers who I know and respect on PPRUNE doing the same.

1/ IMPULSE pilots wanted to join AIPA ... but AIPA said NO

As others have pointed out, at the time, QF drivers were told that the IPC didn't want to join AIPA. They felt that they had the upper hand and that working with AIPA would be to their detriment. Whether the IPC lied to their members or the then AIPA president lied to his members is something I've never been able to work out.

That said, most AIPA pilots were agitating for group membership.

3/EVERYONE else in the industry could see that JETSTAR was founded and funded to erode QF terms and conditions..... except QF pilots.

And you reckon I'm in the 'told you so' game? Strewth!

4/QF pilots, to this day STILL believe that QF management will "do the right thing" by them, and that JQ pay is a LONG way off.

Not many QF drivers I fly with hold that belief.

5/JQ pilots are have been doing the right thing, by them, but have been shafted by management again, as they do not, and have not formed a UNITED BODY with any backbone..... yet.

Agreed. Had they been working with AIPA from a lot earlier perhaps we wouldn't be in this place now.... the point I made previously.

Anyway, now that those points are clarified, back to the thread.

Mr. Hat

12th Oct 2010, 09:46

Who cares who you blame for it - just focus on a bloody solution before this rubbish takes off.

The solution is here:

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/pilots_2010/index.htm)

If some of the energy that goes into the Impulse/Jetstar/Qantas/VIPA/AFAP/ VB/PB/VA/AIPA/1989/Instructing/Bush time/high wing/low wing/cadets actually went into a submission to the Senate enquiry we might actually get a result instead of some words that will disappear off the bottom of the pprune page as soon as the topic loses appeal.

Time to put pen to paper and submit to the Senate Inquiry and stop going around in circles on topics that have been done to death. Contribute something today to make a difference once and for all!

Popgun

12th Oct 2010, 11:07

Here fricking Here, Mr Hat!!!

As several have pointed out...there is nothing but folly to be found by focussing on the rear vision mirror.

Lets move forward...and find solutions.

PG

Mr. Hat

12th Oct 2010, 11:24

Well Jesus people we've got a Senate Enquiry into all this.

I think this is HUGELY significant don't you?

Clock is ticking, closing date approaching. Don't think for a minute "nah someone else will do it". The industry needs everyones perspective. We all have different experience and expertise.

exmexican

12th Oct 2010, 23:51

If only some of these bright sparks had raged against the offshoring of our textile, manufacturing, primary industry, and automotive industry, we'd all be living in an Aussie-made utopia on vast wages and great Aussie lifestyle. But you didn't give a **** that your "fresh" orange juice is imported pulp from Chile, your tight Bonds T-shirt is sweat shop stained, and you wouldn't be seen dead in an inferior locally produced car.
The public majority won't care about inferior training, safety standards, and your conditions/remuneration, as long as they can have their trip to Bali for $199.
The race to the bottom is not unique to our industry. Sadly.

Popgun

13th Oct 2010, 00:50

There is no question that the general public loves cheap air fares.

Most, however (IMHO), love arriving safely, in one piece, EVEN more.

That is why this battle must be fought on the grounds of safety...Not the slide in terms, conditions and benefits...but the one thing the public DO understand and love more than cheap fares.

That is, the (almost) definite likelihood that they and their loved ones will get to the destination SAFELY and shall never have to go through the devastation of family and friends perishing in an accident that included causal factors relating to deteriorating safety standards in this country.

Should better terms and conditions come to pilots indirectly as a result of increasing safety standards...all the better.

Make no mistake, safety is the key to winning the PR war and getting the average Aussie on board with our thinking. (Management will be pulling out all stops to convince the punters otherwise!)

PG

tenretni

13th Oct 2010, 03:14

Autobrakes 4

May i suggest that you get your facts straight about JQ pilots membership within AIPA before posting such misguided rubbish.

I can tell you that at the time that Impulse was being formed, a group of senior Impulse pilots approached the president of AIPA,seeking information about potential membership and coverage of Impulse pilots by AIPA.

The rules at the time precluded AIPA from offering membership. It was as a result of this meeting that the Impulse Pilots Council was formed.

As many now know, years later, AIPA took legal action and won the right of coverage of what now had become JQ pilots.

Your suggestion that the Impulse/Jetstar pilots chose not to join and are now running with their tails between their legs to join is fiction.

Why do i know this to be fact? Simply because i was the one who put the idea of membership forward to these Impulse pilots at the time.

The rest is history.

Capt Claret

13th Oct 2010, 03:28

The only chance for pilots to have a hand in maintaining Ts&Cs is for the various industrial organisations to put aside long held enmity and become united. Then we might stand a chance.

I'm just waiting for http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/3flypigs.gif to stop at my place and collect me, enroute to the meeting. :{

WoodenEye

13th Oct 2010, 06:23

Spot on Claret.Various industrial organisations puting aside long held enmity and becoming united. Is the obivious essential prerequisite to any journey down the road to Damascus.

Without it, all concerned will rightly conclude that Australia’s pilots and their respective associations don’t have what it takes.

When the flying pigs drop by to pick you up. Please ask them to leave room in the chariot for me.

Popgun

13th Oct 2010, 06:38

So rather than just lamenting to each other, "if only"...

What practical things do you suggest we do to encourage it to happen?

PG

Normasars

13th Oct 2010, 06:52

IT'S ALREADY TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO LATE MATE.

YOU CAN DREAM ALL YOU LIKE BUT IT'S TOO LATE. IT WAS TOO LATE 9 YEARS AGO WHEN QF SHUT DOWN SAA AND BOUGHT OUT IMPULSE. THAT IS WHEN IT ALL BEGAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as for pilot unity, sorry I just can't stop rolling on the floor in laughter unfortunately.

However, Hat and popgun and co, I like your enthusiasm but you are on a hiding to nothing.

A. Le Rhone

13th Oct 2010, 09:47

Bollocks - just give up and die then?

What nonsense.

Supply and Demand for the first time in a very long while is in OUR favour. The final ingredient is enhanced pilot unity and anything is achievable.

Don't like quitters and don't agree with Normasars' opinion or resigned acceptance of the push to supress T&C's even further.

Joe Eakins attitude and drive is exactly what's needed. The previous post exactly NOT

gordonfvckingramsay

13th Oct 2010, 12:27

Normasars, please don't actively try to derail this push for unity. If you feel we are wasting our time, it should be no concern of yours.

The Green Goblin

13th Oct 2010, 13:51

I suspect he is the management infiltrator......

Stick together folks, united we can do anything.

Normasars

13th Oct 2010, 14:03

GFR et al,

I have been around in this industry long enough to be a realist padre. Bang on all you like about PILOT UNITY "MATE" , but it will NEVER, repeat just for you, NEVER, happen. Call me what you want/like but I am a realist and I KNOW it will never happen. It saddens me too, but I can admit when the truth is undeniable. And by the way , you know it too deep down.

And BTW, I am not trying to "derail" as you put it. Just being a realist.

ALR, please tell me where is this pilot shortage that you are eluding to? Supply and demand?? WTF. You are in a different world to me mate. From where I sit, there is a pile of CV's 100 deep applying for a gig, whether it be jet or turboprop. And if you look around this forum there are GA guys with 1000s of hrs applying to the airlines and can't get a look in. So don't bullshyte yourself that there is some kind of pilot shortage out there. As was mentioned in a previous thread, be very careful not to manipulate this offshoring of T&Cs into "safety" as this keeps drifting too. And lets be brutally honest here. That is what this is all about, protecting the T&Cs that JQ drivers undercut the incumbents on.

I know that you can't move forward looking in the rear view mirror, but please don't anybody say the past has no relevance here. If the guy that has been screwing your wife says sorry mate, I am now asking you for your support, will you help me out, I know what I would say. But heh?? I am only human. You guys are kidding yourselves. Pilot unity, you are dreaming.

Not a pragmatist, just a realist Sorry.

A. Le Rhone

13th Oct 2010, 15:54

Jeez Normasars, you're unreal.

Remind me not to go to war with a bloke like you. You are correct, pilot unity with people like you IS impossible. Your opinions however are just that, that doesn't make you an oracle and those opinions 'reality'.

I too have been around for many years and know nothing is impossible. From where I sit in Asia, prior to the GFC we couldn't get pilots here of anywhere near the standard we were used to. There might be 100's of CV's but none of them worth anything. This scenario is starting to reappear and will only become greater with so many aircraft on order and dwindling supplies of qualified pilots to fly them. That wasn't 'bullshyte' Einstein that was fact.

And as an aside to AJ's comment of Australian pilots living in cuckoo land about Asian salaries, aircrew in my airline are paid about twice what the average J* pilot gets.

And another of your points, I personally am not affected by what a J* pilot is paid but I do not want to see the smoking heap in the ground that is a far more likely scenario if we insist on bypassing the standards inherent in the Australian training system. And why the hell shouldn't this thread 'drift into a discussion of offshoring jobs and the threat that poses to safety? I

I don't like slanging matches on PPRuNe but I despise snide, naysaying quitters who try to sway others by hiding behind the smokescreen of being 'realists'.

Perhaps foolishly I have historically looked at my colleagues almost as family but when I occasionally come across attitudes like those I do hang my head in shame.

Chronic Snoozer

13th Oct 2010, 17:31

I've often likened aviation to the medical profession for some reason. There is a significant difference however. With a quota system and hurdles for entry, it is not possible to 'buy' your medical degree whereas it is your ATPL. Seems to me that one solution to the relentless downward pressure on conditions would be to set the 'bar' somewhere and make flying training less accessible. (unfortunately)

If a Pilot Organisation (think AMA) were to control of the numbers and standards of pilots produced in Australia, it could be the first step in controlling the erosion of pay and conditions.

WoodenEye

13th Oct 2010, 20:46

The formation of a single Pilots Association will silence the critics and build momentum critical to successfully upholding professional standards for pilots.

On the other hand, given the media coverage of the ‘All Pilot Meetings” and the Senate Inquiry instituted in response thereto, obvious failure to now create a visible public symbol of effective unification will simply confirm what Normasars has to say.

Con Catenator

13th Oct 2010, 22:41

Wooden eye is right about the "single" pilot union.

But an Australian ALPA umbrella organisation has to have within itself an executive management structure that has the same logistical capacity as (for example) BALPA in the UK.

Companies such as Jetstar would have to work a lot harder if they are dealing with professional negotiators from a totally independent organisation rather than its' own pilots.

The way things are now, I can't help but feel we are notoriously incapable of negotiating our own future.

An active and effective AUS ALPA as the ONLY representative body, with company sub groups under it, will be our best option.

The problem with AIPA as a QF denominated union, is that it has too many question marks over it to be considered an "independent" negotiator for other pilot groups.

Would AIPA readily be prepared to sit underneath an effective and well resourced AUS ALPA - who knows ??

waren9

13th Oct 2010, 23:01

The problem with AIPA as a QF denominated union, is that it has too many question marks over it to be considered an "independent" negotiator for other pilot groups.

Not for me.

AIPA and its QF pilots have as much vested interest in this as everyone else. AIPA demonstate they know this by hosting these pilot meetings, and by the disproportionate amount of money they have spent on the JQ pilot group recently.

Afterall, when you've got the best contract in this part of the world, there's only one direction things can go.

Con Catenator

14th Oct 2010, 02:30

AIPA and its QF pilots have as much vested interest in this as everyone else

That's exactly my point.

I just feel that the best interests of the other rapidly expanding pilot group would be better served by an organisation that does not have such "vested interests".

(And I am not having a go at QF pilots here - they have every right to do as they choose.)

OneDotLow

14th Oct 2010, 03:03

I think I hold the view of most QF pilots when I say that we all want there to be one united pilot's union. Whether or not that is AIPA, I, and i'm sure many others, don't really care either way. BUT at this point in time, AIPA are the only union investing time and resources in making it happen...

The Green Goblin

14th Oct 2010, 04:54

What would it take to vote as members to merge the AFAP, AIPA, VIPA into one union? We could then have the current AFAP side dealing with the GA side of the membership and proper representation from the ground up, the AIPA/VIPA side dealing with the airline side of the membership no matter what is painted on your tail.

We could have the usual union representative for each Pilot group, however they would operate under the direction of the main body. This would limit the current union agendas, save us as members a bucket load of cash paying the current incumbents (particularly in the AFAP) who are not really doing a hell of a lot to improve our lot. We would then have a more unified agreement across the airline groups for Pilots rather than the current disparities between workplaces.

Wishful thinking or achievable? I'm sure WE as members could make it happen if we put forward a motion and voted on it. Getting the union reps into the same room would be like trying to lasso a racehorse Goanna however!

Oxidant

14th Oct 2010, 05:15

I concur. The Best way forward.

OpsNormal

14th Oct 2010, 06:02

Wishful thinking or achievable?

It is achievable, and the fact that this discussion (along with any number of previous ones like it) is happening at all should be the impetus for a concerted effort to act upon it. How many more bells need to clang before some hear the message ringing out that this is what is most desperately needed?

What you will find would possibly happen is that many people with either expired membership or those who have never even joined in the first place for whatever reason (to be honest most have seemed to put it off due to what looks from the outside to be a fractured organisation at a grass roots level) would suddenly become more interested.

The outward concept of a union doing the most for those who pay the most needs to be addressed. Having been a union member in a strong union outside the aviation circle many years ago the message to all was always all for one, one for all..... Effectively putting the message to all that to get to the top you need to build (and help maintain) strength at the bottom. Quite different to the line that appears to be espoused in this industry at this time.

Regards,

OpsN.;)

blow.n.gasket

14th Oct 2010, 11:37

I was under the impression that AIPA had already done a lot of work towards a unified all encompassing pilots union using AusALPA as the genesis.
Pilot Councils responsible for their own betterment under an overarching governing executive.
What's happened?
Wouldn't now be the best time to enact such an organisation?
Only this time structured so no pilot group can ride shotgun over everyone else.:eek:
That way you will not end up with what caused the AIPA /AFAP split up, all over again!

WoodenEye

14th Oct 2010, 23:32

Unless it is something no one is talking about, no one I know is saying:'that a lot of work towards a unified all encompassing pilots union using AusALPA as the genesis.
Is work in progress.

The silence is deafing.

Oakape

15th Oct 2010, 04:34

Including the kiwi pilots would be a good idea. With the push for consistancy in trans-tasman T&C's & the concerns with off-shoring of Australian jobs, having a single trans-tasman pilot union would certainly help the cause.

The Green Goblin

15th Oct 2010, 05:04

As much at it shudders me to think of it Oakape you are bloody right!

exmexican

16th Oct 2010, 00:00

What about including all the Asian pilots as well, Oakape? A consistant trans-Pacific package would be great. Oh, that's what the airline is trying to do, I guess. Bugger the Kiwis, people with funny accents have been taking up Australian GA and airline jobs for years, eh bro.

The Green Goblin

16th Oct 2010, 05:35

exmexican,

You need to look at the history of NZ and Australia. NZ was in fact governed by NSW until the states of Australia (the mainland) became a federation. NZ was invited to join and become a state of Australia (but for reasons of stupidity and financial detriment declined). The invitation is still open ended in the Australian constitution however. So NZ being part of Australian union movements does make sense, as the countries are very economically and politically related. Citizens are also free to move from country to country without residency issues.

Asia was never part of Australia and it's colonies and as such would not qualify.

teresa green

18th Oct 2010, 10:41

Actually the AIPA was "born" of the AFAP. Cannot remember the actual dates, but the QF blokes got the sh*ts with the AFAP over a number of issues that they decided were irrelevent to them, and they broke away with their own group, but never quite forgave the AFAP for a building that was purchased in Melbourne, and they never saw a cent from its sale. Wooden eye might remember this. Anyway might come the full circle after all, hope so.

Y0SSARIAN

27th Oct 2010, 17:13

If one were disposed to consult Adam Smith or any other Free Market advocate they would be confronted by the market inefficiencies that Monopolies, Virtual Monopolies or Oligopolies impose on the free market (as is the case in Australian Airline employers). In terms of the balance of monetary reward versus actual contribution to economic activity the "invisible hand" is not just "invisible" but nonexistent in this regard.
Thus theoretically and economically in a relatively free-market economy the only way to counter the power of corporate hegemony is through collective labour. Northern Europeans have known this for at least 100 years and our history shows that we have indeed understood this, and subsequently largely forgotten it.
I am ashamed to an extent to be born just prior to the "Y" generation, known by others as the "me" generation. Ashamed to a minor extent but more honoured to have the opportunity to explain to my friends and colleagues the historic significance of the struggle we now face and the fact that our parent's generation only enjoyed the workplace rights and conditions they did as a result of generations of struggle against economic repression combined with the threat of an ideologically incompatible philosophy (i.e. communism- dialectic materialism) that to an extent "kept the bastards honest".
Now that no such threat exists there is no imperative for our "dear leaders" to offer us any kind of "new deal". Thus we will be raped and pillaged and screwed until our oppressors finally confront a brick wall. That brick wall is us and can only be constructed on the basis of relative unity.
Unity is the answer
To the problem.
100% is not required.
But you are required.
If myopia or denial is your solution to avoiding conflict, then I wish the best of luck to you. Hopefully you will see the light and join us one day.
As for the rest who need little or no convincing, the answer is as obvious as it is self-apparent.

rammel

27th Oct 2010, 20:53

I heard a rumour that the author of the article is no longer working at Jetstar as he was sacked. I'd like to think that this isn't true, but knowing how vindictive management types are these days, he may have breached some little known clause in his contract.

Once again I hope this isn't true, but if it is I hope his union (whichever one his in) backs him up and helps fight it.

Capt Kremin

27th Oct 2010, 21:30

He was just elected on to the AIPA COM. So I guess he would have some sort of back-up. I haven't heard if he was sacked, but there are clauses in the QF FAM that prohibit public comment; I am sure the Jetstar contract would be even more specific- hence the name of this thread.

2FarCanard

27th Oct 2010, 22:31

S.O.C(ked) not sacked!

Slight difference in spelling and final outcome, hopefully, for him.

Capt Kremin

27th Oct 2010, 23:05

S.O.C......?

Tidbinbilla

27th Oct 2010, 23:20

Subject to Operational Clearance.......?

Nuthinondaclock

28th Oct 2010, 02:18

Captain Kremin,

I haven't heard if he was sacked, but there are clauses in the QF FAM that prohibit public comment; I am sure the Jetstar contract would be even more specific- hence the name of this thread.

I think the restrictions or clauses only apply in the case of an incident or some sort of operational event where you are representing Qantas. I wouldn't have thought that non-operational statements, of an industrial nature, made as an individual could be restricted.

Mr. Hat

28th Oct 2010, 03:43

Would be like trying to put a small scrub fire out by crashing a fuel truck into it.

Legal department working overtime no doubt.

m-dot

28th Oct 2010, 03:57

Can I ask exactly what FO Eakins has written which would be contrary to any airline policy. To the best of my knowledge, the article in question pertained to deteriorating conditions amongst airline pilots in general due to various factors.

I believed it was a very articulate human interest story written by an A330 FO who just happens to work for JQ. Since I can co longer find the article I would really appreciate anyone posting the possibly contravening material.

breakfastburrito

28th Oct 2010, 07:55

I can still recall the first time I looked skyward to watch a jumbo jet soar overhead. As a 10-year-old growing up in the late 1980s, I dreamed that one day I would be at the controls of one of those mighty machines as it roared through the skies.

After 10 years as a pilot, currently as a First Officer on Airbus A330's, the thrill is still there.

But the next generation of youngsters with the same dream may never realise it, with the latest cost-cutting attempts by airline bean counters threatening the very existence of an Australian aviation sector.

Jetstar have led the way, recently announcing a plan to cut pilot labour costs by hiring crew for several new Australian-registered A330 aircraft, operated under Australian Air Operator's Certificates, out of Singapore where they will employ air crew on wages well below their Australian-based colleagues.

While they are offering the jobs to Australian pilots first, albeit on contracts that cut basic remuneration by almost 50 per cent, the remaining positions will be filled out of Singapore and Vietnam.

This follows similar moves with their New Zealand-based JetConnect subsidiary, that pays pilots about 70 per cent of their Australian colleagues' wages, and the "offshoring" of a large proportion of Jetstar's Australian-based international flight attendants to Thailand and Singapore.

Many of these Australian employees have been replaced by workers flown in from "bases of convenience" in Singapore and Bangkok on employment conditions well below the applicable Australian award.

While the conditions of flight crew have come under the knife, Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan has been promoted by creating an additional layer of management between himself and operational staff, and in doing so has been rewarded with a 43 per cent pay rise.

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has also joined the cause, last week accusing pilots of being in "cloud-cuckoo land" for opposing the offshoring of jobs, saying: "The fact is that we are in a highly competitive market, we need to have an Asian carrier with Asian rates." The irony of this statement is that the Qantas Group already has two Asian carriers with Asian rates, Jetstar Asia and Jetstar Pacific.

What Joyce is trying to do is to distract the public gaze from the real point of contention, which is having an Australian carrier operating on Australian routes, but having employees paid "Asian rates" through artificially manufactured overseas bases.

The Australian and International Pilot's Association, which represents the majority of Jetstar pilots, is taking legal action arguing that pilots flying Australian aircraft on Australian routes should be paid the same wages as local crew, whether they are flying out of New Zealand or Singapore.

Pilots, through AIPA, have also expressed concern regarding the company's desire to undermine the pilot seniority system as a mechanism for promotion, which is standard practice in almost all the world's respected Airlines.

While the new Jetstar contracts that promote pilots according to "merit" may sound like a good idea, it is important to take a closer look. Airline pilots, like many other professionals, are paid as much to refuse to do certain things as they are to get the job done. Every day in the life of a professional airline pilot is spent evaluating risks and determining the safest course of action. Sometimes this safest course of action will be at odds with the short-term commercial imperatives of the company.

A pilot operating within a seniority system has no incentive to take risks or break the rules to appease management and increase their chances of promotion. Conversely a pilot operating under the "merit"-based promotion system, particularly in a company that views cost saving as its fundamental value, will be under implicit pressure to please management or risk their career advancement prospects.

These disputes have broad implications for all Australians. Firstly, our reputation for aviation excellence has been built on the dedication, training, hard work and experience of local pilots over many decades, a culture that will be obliterated if the offshoring push continues and the proven and effective seniority system is scrapped.

Secondly, Jetstar has demonstrated that, while WorkChoices may be "dead and buried", the new Fair Work Act can be circumvented and draconian workplace conditions can be imposed through the use of foreign "bases of convenience", allowing Australian operations to be staffed with people on Third World wages and working conditions.

Already young pilots who have successfully completed recruitment with Jetstar Australia have been contacted by the company and offered New Zealand or Singaporean contracts on unfavourable terms.

The Australian aviation sector is at a crossroads. Not only are the dreams of the youngsters who look skyward at risk, but the institutions that created our reputation for safety through well trained experienced pilots is under threat, which is bad news for all Australians.

Joseph Eakins is a Jetstar A330 First Officer and a member of the Australian and International Pilot's Association.

A good but not perfect job was done of attempting to expunge this from the www.

PPRuNeUser0198

28th Oct 2010, 08:52

Isn't libel the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual, that may give an individual, business, product, group, government, or nation a negative image?

If so, does his story cross these lines and put him at risk of legal action since he is an employee of Jetstar?

The Qantas Group Code of Conduct policy would be pretty explicit surrounding this...

Mr. Hat

28th Oct 2010, 10:21

T-vasis, as the title of the thread says...." Brave?....or....". I'd say extremely brave. Not something I'd do, each to their own.

Borderline heroic, the stuff legends are made of? Certainly a man with a backbone no doubt. One for the lawyers.

As I said though, will they put out the fire by throwing fuel on it? Joe's saviour it might be.

waren9

28th Oct 2010, 12:46

...Isn't libel the communication of a statement that makes a claim, expressly stated or implied to be factual...

Whats not factual in that article? Nail on the head, I'd say.

:hmm:

Capt Kremin

28th Oct 2010, 23:42

It doesn't matter if it is libelious or not. If there is a clause in the J* contract, or a clause in the FAM that prohibits public comment, and you go ahead and comment whilst clearly identified as a Jetstar (or QF) employee, then you are exposed.

The pros and cons of what you write don't really come into it.

mrs nomer

28th Oct 2010, 23:52

I would be arguing that he was representing AIPA when the comments were made, and as such, does enjoy some protection under industrial legislation.

Would this be enough to save him ?:confused: I guess the lawyers will be busy.

Capt Kremin

29th Oct 2010, 00:17

He wasn't on COM when he made the comments. Still isn't technically till December.

Nuthinondaclock

29th Oct 2010, 00:33

To be clear. This does not in any way beach any clause of the FAM.

Capt Kremin

29th Oct 2010, 00:58

Sorry if it appears I am critical of Joe here, I am not. What he said was his opinion, and is correct. If Jetstar censure him or worse, I think it would be in all our interests to do something about it.

Mstr Caution

29th Oct 2010, 01:04

The FAM is for Tech Crew & the Code of Conduct & Ethics all employees.

TIMA9X

29th Oct 2010, 10:51

If Jetstar censure him or worse, I think it would be in all our interests to do something about it.Sure, I don't think J* or QF would gain any benefit pursuing this legally in the courts, frankly an over reaction from management who can not handle a sensitive issue, a growing trend these days, hide behind litigation and hope it goes away.

It would be easy to make the lawyers defending management look stupid if more pilots spoke up in this case. For me, it is always a sign that management is in "panic mode" when it calls in the lawyers to complicate a sensitive issue, increasing public awareness that may backfire on the very managers who implemented this legal action. It is my view, a complete waste of time and money but the end game could possibly remove a couple of managers from their posts if pilots united and did "something about it."

On this issue I firmly believe pilots would have overwhelming support from the traveling public if it was again brought to their attention..... think about it.

Monorail

30th Oct 2010, 01:15

As breakfastburrito has said, the article has all but disappeared and that, IMO, speaks volumes about how "independant" the Australian media is.

What The

18th Nov 2010, 09:06

According to sources, Jetstar today terminated the employment of Joe Eakin.

Their reasons include '..particularly in relation to making unauthorised public statements about the Company, and engaging in activity which could by association cause public embarrassment or harm to Jetstar’s business, interests and reputation.'

What to do?

Capt Kremin

18th Nov 2010, 09:18

Hopefully AIPA is contacting FWA as we speak...:uhoh:

Going Boeing

18th Nov 2010, 09:22

The other bit of politics that I read into this is that they are making an example of Joe because he is a member (about to be a COM member) of AIPA. Jetstar management are desperate to keep AIPA out of any J* Pilot EBA negotiations - they are more likely to get their way with the AFAP being the industrial body representing Jetstar pilots.

I'm sure that AIPA will be throwing all of its resources behind Joe to ensure that he is reinstated and he has the full support of both mainline and Jetstar pilots.

bigles

18th Nov 2010, 10:10

Should The Rumor Of Termination Of F/o Eakins Be True, The Management Of Jq Must Be Barking Mad.any Subsequent Court Case Will Result In The Exposure Of jetstar's Dirty Linen. As The Executives Are Put On The Witness Stand.it Would Be Hard For Any Competently Instructed Jury To Find Sufficient Grounds For Such Action.

This Apart From Any Further Debasement Of Morale In The Frontline Staff.this Has Shades Of The Mismanagement Of Ansett By Air New Zealand,surely One Of The Worst Cases In Modern Business History.you Can Only Lead From The Front,you Cannott Drive From The Rear.

An Outsider I Have Watched The Remarkable Job Done By Alan Joyce To Take Jetstar From A Standing Start To A Stand Out Sucess. If Current Management Cannott See Beyond The Next Executive Bonus, We Are Witnessing The Demise Of What Could Have Beeen One Of The World Outstanding Airlines.

Jabawocky

18th Nov 2010, 10:25

Its time for the rest of you....YES ALL OF YOU...to grow some balls.

I am not a union supporter, I am a liberal voter, but I believe in fair employers.

This is wrong. I know some JQ folk in senior positions, and lets say single digits on the seniority list, and they think the recent JQ attempts suck.......this just highlights the case and I am sure if handled correctly some ground could be made here.

I would suggest that you all band together, and even sponsor his wages from donations until he wins in the courts...........and he should. I am even prepared to chip in....and I do not work in the industry.

What do you folk reckon?

Man or Mouse......................pass the cheese?

The Green Goblin

18th Nov 2010, 10:53

Now would be the perfect opportunity for VB to stick him on the new buses on the way.

What do you reckon JB? I don't know to many VB folk who will be upset.

teresa green

18th Nov 2010, 11:08

Jabawocky, right on. Virgin give this man a job. AIPA get this out in the media. JQ hang your head in shame. This young bloke had the balls to say what was going on, he deserves better. Fellow pilots they cannot sack the whole lot of you. Worked in 89 won't work now. Support him.

Angle of Attack

18th Nov 2010, 11:41

GAME ON! Cannot wait! They have just dug a few holes in their own graves with this outrage!

Artificial Horizon

18th Nov 2010, 19:02

It is totally wrong that he was sacked, talk about risking massive negative publicity. The shame of it though is that he has a snowballs chance in hell of winning an unfair dismissal case. The corporate policy by which we are all governed forbids us from talking to, or writing for the media without express permission from the company regardless of the subject. The courts won't care if what he said is true or not, this was the risk he took.

Mr. Hat

18th Nov 2010, 19:19

I suspect this could actually be the straw that breaks the camels back. As far as I know he's very well respected in the Jetstar pilot community.

I don't know him but I felt my blood pressure hit the roof when I read it. Must be an instinctual thing who knows.

Bad timing with summer holidays and you're a hundred pilots short.

pinafore

18th Nov 2010, 20:45

Many friends inside Jetstar have told me that Joe has very strong support. I have hard that some have already offered support to buy him his house!

Why JQ would want to aggravate their pilots on the eve of the busy, christmas season (when they are already short on pilots) is beyond me.

Comments like this wont help either;
The Australian 19th November Bruce Buchanan
He said he understood pilots' concerns when they saw rapid growth in Asia and they saw themselves as losing relevance as an industrial body.

This Boston school of management really must be something else! I'd love to know what their first unit of study is - How to piss your staff off and still expect them to do the right thing by you..... eventually if you kick a dog enough it will bite back.

xjt

18th Nov 2010, 20:56

Brake the camels back...thats what we all said in September...Mr Hat..it is quite sad that this has reached this level......This company and its clones are the most rotten bunch i have encountered in my life time.....but the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.....September to remember.?...what was that....all talk no action..Same guys preaching on the line...where the same guys pushing back on time...appearing in company ads..and kissing preverbal management ass when confronted....The is no decency left in this country...its not just this industry .....Australia has become the problem....a labor government not supporting labor......a gen y rotten culture has evolved...gimme gimme gimme.....oh wow i fly a shinny jet on McDonalds wages......" I am so lucky to be here..." " I cant believe they pay me to do this"'"" need i go on ....Look in the mirror people !!!!!!!!!.....What they have done to Joe is a disgrace........Please tell me you dont really believe this is going to evoke some type of revolution....Here they basically told us that we WILL outsource us wether we like it or not, and the best we could do was push back 1 min late ........who on the hell are we kidding?

blow.n.gasket

18th Nov 2010, 21:17

Even though Joe wasn't technically on AIPA CoM at the time of the alleged article, I'm led to believe AIPA use consultants from time to time to do research. Would this type of arrangement allow the use of legislation that permits Union delegates to voice opinions against an employer even if they are employees of the same company they are speaking out against?

ALL DAY, EVERY DAY, LOW MORALE!:ooh:

A. Le Rhone

18th Nov 2010, 21:22

I too don't work for JQ so I apologise if I am giving advice from 'outside' however we are all inside the industry.

Firstly; if it is true Joe has been terminated (any proof of this?) this is an attempt by JQ to intimidate all of you. It is a blatant effort to take an already cowering, scared and subservient group and keep them living in grovelling fear. I don't know how you folks can live like that.

Secondly; What more proof do you guys need that some drastic action is required? Again I accept that it's easy for an outsider to make such bold statements but you are the guys living with this nonsense. Unfortunately I agree that all the meetings and endless talk, talk, talk and PPRUNE rhetoric mean nothing unless you actively and concertedly DO SOMETHING TANGIBLE & SIGNIFICANT. It doesn't have to be to strike etc but you do need to have an impact on the bottom line to show you are a group that can't continuously be spat on and laughed at as you are at present.

The CEO is simply stating your displeasure is just AIPA posturing and he is getting airtime for this. However there are many non-AIPA members equally as disenfranchised and then there is the very grave safety implications of the path that JQ management are taking (for the love of god I can't understand their stupidity in this regard) and yet this is getting no airtime! Employing dodgy pilots in dodgy bases to avoid Australian laws and standards is a recipe for disaster and nobody is highlighting this.

Finally; Joe's article was an eloquent, non-inflammatory and factual precis of the state of the industry. If this story is true, not only must he be supported financially by Australian pilots until he's back on his feet, but this is a perfect PR case for any pilot association (AFAP, AIPA) etc to really hammer and take public. Not only are JQ trying to bypass Australian civil aviation standards and regulations they are attempting to supress the truth by terminating anybody who dares to bring this reality to the attention of the travelling public - the very people who will sadly be affected by the safety implications of JQ's actions.

Something is very smelly in the aviation world in Australia and to be fixed it needs ACTIONS, not words on PPRUNE.

Mr. Hat

18th Nov 2010, 21:35

Soft culture and country it must be. Very sad indeed. Try this stunt in countries France or Spain and there would be cars on fire upside down in the street. A no nonsense approach to workers and civil justice and rights.

It won't even make the news here.

biton

18th Nov 2010, 21:37

The jetstar guys have got to help themselves. They keep calling on others to be a part of their meetings to show unity against the company and then something like this happens and they do NOTHING. It has been known for some time now that Joe was being let go but they have just sat around like a pack of wounded animals. Well, who's going to carry the flame for you now gentlemen? Jetstar is full of individuals with self-serving agendas and this is why your conditions will further deteriorate. The other posts on here are spot on, the management are testing your resolve and you are failing miserably. Do you want to be spoon fed or something? The rest of us would like to see you show some ticker. Are we living in China for crying out loud?

SilverSleuth

18th Nov 2010, 22:07

An anonymous email to media outlets is what you guys should do. Make it known..

Capt Kremin

18th Nov 2010, 22:16

Rumour confirmed. AIPA is fighting it.

vigi-one

18th Nov 2010, 22:51

Which crew are taking SUNRISE to Hawaii?

SilverSleuth

18th Nov 2010, 23:45

Get together jet* boys and girls over this one and act quick. It sets a precedent and is intimidation. A stop work meeting would get their attention and the medias very quickly.

ratpoison

19th Nov 2010, 00:06

Which crew are taking SUNRISE to Hawaii?
Apparently vigi, an all AUSTRALIAN based cabin crew with blonde hair and blue eyes are being conveniently rostered. Somewhat intriguing as all their HNL flights for over a year now have all been Singaporean and Thai crew with one or two Aussies. I wonder why all the crew are Aussies for that particular trip!!:ugh:

Mstr Caution

19th Nov 2010, 00:39

Pilots of Australia-Time to Unite-Meeting Aug 23 thread

post # 317 August 24th.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro pilot here.

However, don't under-estimate the response of the entity you work for.

I am concerned, a collegue(s) less informed may be the fall guy/girl for the greater good of the pilot community.

A company will take action against any person(s) engaged in activities which don't align with the "Standards of Conduct" you were provided on initial employment.

What the meeting failed to address is what these obligations are & how a company views breaches of such obligations & more so what the company response will be.

Standards of Conduct is a different issue to Industrial Action & is determined by the employer.

There was always going to be a high profile fall guy.

blow.n.gasket

19th Nov 2010, 00:52

Quote:
Which crew are taking SUNRISE to Hawaii?
Apparently vigi, an all AUSTRALIAN based cabin crew with blonde hair and blue eyes are being conveniently rostered. Somewhat intriguing as all their HNL flights for over a year now have all been Singaporean and Thai crew with one or two Aussies. I wonder why all the crew are Aussies for that particular trip

Funny, the rumour I heard was that the "Stars" of Sunrise would be travelling up to HNL on Qantas because they didn't want to "slum it" on Jetstar.:ooh:

neville_nobody

19th Nov 2010, 01:09

Interesting to note that Australia is a signatory to the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights which advocates free speech through any medium, yet the Australian Parliament never wrote it into law nor has Australia a Bill of Rights.

On saying that here is a interesting quote from the Australian Governments Immigration website, which is actually incorrect,

Australians are free, within the bounds of the law, to say or write what we think privately or publicly, about the government, or about any topic. We do not censor the media and may criticise the government without fear of arrest. Free speech comes from facts, not rumours, and the intention must be constructive, not to do harm. There are laws to protect a person's good name and integrity against false information. There are laws against saying or writing things to incite hatred against others because of their culture, ethnicity or background. Freedom of speech is not an excuse to harm others.

ratpoison

19th Nov 2010, 01:28

It has apparently been confirmed by Joe himself that the lowest act of all was yet conducted when the dog’s conducting the meeting finished in 5 min and said nothing to him regarding his future with J*. Whilst Joe and Co were on the flight back to SYD, an email was sent out to all staff regarding the sacking. Joe and AIPA reps did not even know until after landing SYD. Basically, the whole airline knew of him getting the ar*e via email before the victim even did. How has such faceless, bitter and gutless filth been allowed to permeate the industry and bring it to such lows? And to think that a so called "Pilot Manager" was complicit in the downfall of a young man’s aviation career is a travesty to the profession. How any decent human being can continue in such a position and at the same time lose all respect and what little integrity he had left from the very pilot group one represents is beyond many of us. Ahhhh yes, of coarse Rat, it's the good ol smell of KPI's.

fender

19th Nov 2010, 02:21

I sit here trying to think of ways to express myself without being dragged out the back and tortured.
I know the victim in this crime. He is a very intelligent young pilot who is obviously a threat to lesser men.
Too many pilots are sitting on their asses saying J* pilots should do something about it and show balls.. Well,I think it's time some unity was shown by all groups and make it well know by the Aipa, Afap that J* went too far in the sacking of a professional pilot who did nothing other than respond with AIPAs agreement,(I believe), to furbies made by J*.

Back Pressure

19th Nov 2010, 02:26

Without a strong union encompassing ALL pilots, you are doomed, and by extension, so is the flying public.

Please get your collective act together so that our children aren't sacrificial lambs on a 737 to Sydney piloted by a pimply 20 year old from Singapore who has 300 hours max. and gets paid less than my daughter part-time at Maccas

Lookleft

19th Nov 2010, 04:32

All this bloke did was state openly what everyone was thinking. For that he has been sacked. Hopefully he is able to get his job back through FWA. Make no mistake he has been punished solely to be made an example of so that the rest of the pilots will toe the line. The challenge now for all pilots but particularly Jetstar pilots is to withdraw into our collective shells and hope the trouble passes. Persecution is not restricted to Third World dictatorships.

Turban

19th Nov 2010, 06:19

Try this stunt in countries France or Spain and there would be cars on fire upside down in the street

Cars on fire, maybe not, but most pilots would not go to work that's for sure.
And same thing for Qantas's doors fiasco...

I'm not really a strike enthusiast, but in the end..it might be a good way of preventing the worst from happening... Either be dead bodies, or dead ends, for that matter...

Sometimes one might wish he had taken action when he had a chance..

Beware! :eek:

MrWooby

19th Nov 2010, 08:00

At a time when QANTAS really needs the goodwill of its crew to help the company through a hard time, this action really undermines any engagement that remained. This needs to be fought by AIPA, the ACTU, and by ALL Qantas Brand crew, not just Jetstar crew. Once official confirmation is provided, one action that we can all do is to ensure that all crew, not just PPruners are aware of what has occurred.

ratpoison

19th Nov 2010, 08:54

but particularly Jetstar pilots is to withdraw into our collective shells and hope the trouble passes.
You can't be serious! :confused:

SilverSleuth

19th Nov 2010, 09:40

APIA and this pilot should be getting themselves on the today show Monday morning and talking about this and the qantas link engineers along with it. Watch how quick Joyce reverses these decisions. Don't waste time people.

Mstr Caution

19th Nov 2010, 11:10

The events leading to the termination of Mr Eakins, would appear to add weight to the Senate enquiry terms of reference point g.

g. the need to provide legislative immunity to pilots and other flight crew who report on safety matters and whether the United States and European approaches would be appropriate in the Australian aviation environment;

Mstr Caution

19th Nov 2010, 11:13

A. Le Rhone

19th Nov 2010, 23:00

2 points arise:

1) Absolutely - get this PR out there IMMEDIATELY as "whistleblower sacked by airline trying to cover-up the truth". Don't delay or it will wither away into insignificance. This is where AIPA can prove it's worth (or not). Get Joe, obviously an eloquent and intelligent individual on Sunrise and 7.30 Report and particularly the more hysterical outlets such as A Current Affair and Today Tonight. Like an intelligent fighter use the inertia created by the attacker against himself to not only trip himself up but to allow you to emerge the moral and PR victors.

2) In reality what CAN the Jetstar pilots do now. From afar it would appear they are collectively unable or unwilling to strike or take significant action so with that mindset what suggestions can be made as to how to demonstrate the obvious group disgust at what is going on?

Skynews

19th Nov 2010, 23:28

Jetstar guys will do absolutely nothing, it might affect their command slot(F/O's), Captains already have their spot so not their problems, newbies will see an empty slot and be sendingoff resume s with offers to work for less money than the next guy.

Unfortunate but that's the modern Jetstar pilot, we have to live with it.

xjt

20th Nov 2010, 00:33

fender

20th Nov 2010, 01:58

It's lazy jerks like you that want the rest of the world to do your dirty work.
You just sit back and relax, let's not rock yor world.
Help out loser.

Normasars

20th Nov 2010, 03:28

Fender,

Were you helping out when YOU decided to undermine the T&Cs of the incumbents by signing up for the "DEAL" that is Jetstar. Bit rough to sit there and slag somebody off as a loser when it was YOU that opted for this.

Once again, pilot unity in this country is a myth.

bonvol

20th Nov 2010, 03:54

Pre-war year
F/O Joe is sacked by the company for a trivial matter
The President of the union immediately issues a directive that unless F/O Joe is
reinstated all flying will cease from xxxx Hrs
F/O Joe is reinstated

Now
F/O Joe is sacked by the company for a trivial matter.
Pilots express outrage on PPrune
F/O Joes union takes his case to the IRC
Time rolls on and on and on
F/O Joe goes overseas to earn a dollar
Everyone forgets about F/O Joe.

A. Le Rhone

20th Nov 2010, 04:30

Yes Bonvol and Normasars you are both correct.

Didn't the Jetstar pilots squeal and moan and threaten almighty hell when the forced transfers to DRW came? And what happened?

If you can't help yourselves what hope do you have? It's easy to give advice from outside but it ain't pretty viewing.

Fortunately Joe seems to be an intelligent and eloquent person and with that aptitude in life will probably succeed at whatever he does but to rely on self-serving peers might be an exercise in futility. AIPA/AFAP must do something on his behalf immediately. This is a very important precedent being set.

Surely to work as what increasingly seems like simpering dogs cowering at the feet of brutal 'masters' can't be what you folks want forever?

gordonfvckingramsay

20th Nov 2010, 06:24

In addition to The Today Show, TT or ACA etc. Try 60 mins, serious clout there I would have thought, I even think Liam Bartlett has had a dig at aviation related subjects in the print media before.

Going Boeing

20th Nov 2010, 06:36

Instead of the "Today" show why not get on "Sunrise" as they are sponsored by Jetstar.

fender

20th Nov 2010, 06:39

Normasars,

600+ Jetstar pilots should resign so you can have a way of life.
They are trying so hard to make conditions better step by step but you have to realize what they are up against.
Why all this stupid anger is directed at pilots and not the real culprits is beyond belief. Get real for christs sake... GET REAL..

bonvol

20th Nov 2010, 07:32

I even think Liam Bartlett has had a dig at aviation related subjects in the print media before.

Yeah I have sent stuff to him in the past. He does get back to you.

lbartlett at nine.com.au

Lookleft

20th Nov 2010, 10:48

For those of you who are obviously taking great delight in the current situation in Jetstar lets not forget that Joe was and should still be a Jetstar pilot. So suggesting that Jetstar pilots are not doing anything to help themselves I think the evidence of Joe getting sacked for speaking the truth says otherwise. We are operating in an industrial system that favours the employer and Jetstar are exploiting that system to the full. AIPA does not have respondency to the EBA so any response from them is hampered by that fact. Industrial action is illegal but goodwill is discretionary. There is no quick response but to think there is nothing going on demonstrates the limitations of the view from the outside looking in.

Ushuaia

20th Nov 2010, 11:21

I communicated directly with one of the AIPA Execs today. I was advised that Joe has NOT been sacked. The situation is certainly problematic, however. Right now it's important that everybody just stays cool.

beaver_rotate

20th Nov 2010, 11:33

Stick it up em' 2 dads!!!

Normasars

20th Nov 2010, 11:46

Fender and Lookleft etc

One fundamental issue you guys forget to acknowledge here is YOU AND ONLY YOU agreed to this deal. Nobody twistered your arms to sign on the dotted line. Please don't tell the rest of us that you were not aware of the industrial minefield you embarked upon when you accepted this cr@p. It is unbelievably hypocritical for people like FENDER to call those in mainline "losers" after he signed up for what he obviously knew was a sh1te sandwich and now expects those who he accuses as being losers to help out.

Caveat Emptor my friend. If you don't know what that means let me translate into plain English. "BUYER BEWARE".

Lookleft, I and a few others have been saying on this forum for a few years now that the industrial masterminds contracted by QF(ie Oldmeadow Consulting) are light years ahead of the game(and pilots and unions btw) and what is happening now was mapped out in the embrionic stages of JQs inception. What is going on now behind closed doors will come to fruition in a few years. Pilots will be forever trying to play catch-up against this mob.

I begrudgingly feel sympathy for the JQ drivers to a certain degree. But I wonder whether they ever had any feeling of betrayal to the incumbents when they decided to undermine the entire wage system due to nothing but selfishness on their own behalf; and now EXPECT that the very people they shat in the face of, will extend the olive branch and help them in their cause.

And Fender, BTW I no longer work for QF. Walked about 12 mths ago to much greener pastures. There are alternatives out there. Take the brown coloured glasses off and have a look around.:ok:

Monorail

21st Nov 2010, 01:48

Lookleft, I and a few others have been saying on this forum for a few years now that the industrial masterminds contracted by QF(ie Oldmeadow Consulting) are light years ahead of the game(and pilots and unions btw) and what is happening now was mapped out in the embrionic stages of JQs inception. What is going on now behind closed doors will come to fruition in a few years. Pilots will be forever trying to play catch-up against this mob.

Never has a truer word been spoken.

Oh, and if Oldmeadow & Co are only light-years ahead then that would be them having an off day.

Lookleft

21st Nov 2010, 05:35

Norm- I agree with you regarding the company strategies already having been mapped out well in advance of their public airing. This was clearly highlighted when Jetstar was first started and AIPA had no input into the conditions and were only able to put together the MOU at short notice.

Thankyou for the Latin lesson (here's a free English lesson-twisted is the correct spelling) and that applies to you equally in your overseas job.

The big issue here though is not about pay and conditions its about career and profession which Jetstar is fundamentally trying to change. This is the reason that AIPA are involved and the reason Mainline pilots have attended the meetings to voice their concerns at FSO 136. It was the thrust of Joe's speech at the August meeting and the thrust of the media article that he had his name to.

The company is now trying intimidation as a tactic and that is of equal concern to all pilots still in the Australian aviation industry.

As for the "betrayal of the incumbents" there were plenty of QF pilots who took opportunities in Jetstar as they saw the potential for career progression. That is not to denegrate them but clearly they had a different view to you regarding working for Jetstar.

GA Driver

21st Nov 2010, 08:36

Normasars I'll ask you this as you were the one who bought it up....
YOU AND ONLY YOU agreed to this deal. Nobody twistered your arms to sign on the dotted line. Please don't tell the rest of us that you were not aware of the industrial minefield you embarked upon when you accepted this cr@p.

After going through the whole qf recruitment system, to be told at the end I was unsuccessful, what would YOU expect peeps in this situation do? Never apply to another carrier or avoid ALL qf subsidiaries?
I joined up with Jq because they were offereing a job and nobody else at the time was. What I signed up for at the time wasn't all bad, no it wasn't a QF paypacket but I had exhausted all those avenues first and was told don't come Monday! When most of us joined there was no Jq NZ, Jq pacific or inbred flying via Singapore.

With respect, to say I knew the status of the industrial minefield over 4 years ago with forever moving goalposts by the big bosses is a little inaccurate.

Oakape

21st Nov 2010, 12:01

After going through the whole qf recruitment system, to be told at the end I was unsuccessful, what would YOU expect peeps in this situation do? Never apply to another carrier or avoid ALL qf subsidiaries?

Exactly, GA Driver! It's easy to take the moral high ground when you have a job. Perhaps he would like to give you his job & then he can pontificate about how he wouldn't accept crap conditions & lower the whole industry standard, while going quickly bankrupt.

I don't know what the answer is, but if there is one it won't be as easy as telling everyone looking for work not to accept bad T & C's

Dragun

21st Nov 2010, 20:44

I disagree. I never applied to Jetstar because of the terms and conditions. I didn't think they were good enough and therefore did not apply. For the same reason, I turned V Australia down when they released their terms and conditions.

I wasn't on my high horse trying to make a point and impress my pilot mates whilst letting down my family etc., I just didn't apply for the same reason I don't apply for a job at Maccas. I feel my training and experience to date warrants better terms and conditions that that which they are offering.

Having said that, I can understand accepting a job, any job, if you have honestly exhausted all other options and have a family to feed and need income. I would make an educated guess however, that the majority of people who apply to and consequently go work for Jetstar, don't do it out of necessity. They do it because they want to fly a jet or be in an QF group airline and have the attitude "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em". If everyone just didn't apply - and I mean EVERYONE because it doesn't work with just some - then the pay and conditions would be better. That's a fact. Supply and demand is a force that will never lose its integrity.

There is no simple answer though. People have their reasons and all of us should respect individual choices, even if we don't agree with them.

WynSock

22nd Nov 2010, 00:29

I applied to Jetstar and was offered an interview.
After reviewing the terms and conditions, talking to mates already there and actually going over a typical roster, I declined.

I suspect the discomfort of some of the guys in there at the moment is due to not really understanding what they were signing up for. The odour of down-to-the-bone cost-cutting pervades the whole organisation.

I admit I wasn't desperately looking for a any job, but I think you would have to be!

My current employers conditions have full pay from day one. That is a good start to a relationship with any employer.
They never asked me to bend over and take it like JQ does - right from day one.:E

Crew rest.

22nd Nov 2010, 01:31

I applied to Jetstar too. In my application I included that I have 10,000+ hrs,7,000+ jets, 4 heavy jet type ratings and heavy jet command experience. Also previous training experience and degree.

I also said that:

I would not pay for my type rating and
Would not pay my own relocation costs.

They have never contacted me for an interview. I guess that suits me just fine.
:ok:

Ken Borough

22nd Nov 2010, 02:24

I also said that:
I would not pay for my type rating and
Would not pay my own relocation costs.Why should they? If they are after say an A320 rated driver, surely they are entitled to ignore anyone who doesn't have that rating? Should job advertisments say "those without an #330 type rating need nt apply"?

As for relocation costs, if I change jobs of my own volition that requires me to move from Brisvegas to Adelaide, why should my proposed employer bear this cost? After all, it's me that applied for the job. Why should you be treated differently - God;s gift to the world, eh? If JQ wanted to emply you by seeking you out etc., then maybe there is a case to be made for payment of relocation expenses.

Arrogance, like ignorance, is bliss. :ugh::ugh:

clear to land

22nd Nov 2010, 03:01

Ken, the RFDS will pay for relocation costs (with a requirement to be reimbursed if you don't stay for 2 years). The ADF pays for relocation costs. That way they ensure that their employee is not struggling with extra expense from Day 1- now there is a novelty-effective man management. Thats right, I forgot, we are talking about an Airline- the top of the tree- they must do everything absolutely right!. Why would you want a happy employee????:ugh:

Crew rest.

22nd Nov 2010, 03:05

I think you missed my point, Ken. If a company wants me to fly their aircraft, they can train me. I don't subsidise their operation. I am a potential employee, not a charity or an investor. My current company paid for my Boeing type rating-it happens.*

I have a life and family in one city-if they want me to move some where for an operational reason, they can pay for me to relocate. I don't see that this is too much to ask; quite reasonable in other industries.

A mate who is a chemical engineer applied for another job. He got:

Business class air travel to and from the interview.
Hotel accomodation at the Hyatt while he played pyschometric games with the other candidates.
Meal allowance during 2 days of interviews.
Full relocation costs.
3 months in serviced appartment in new city.
Company paid stamp duty on new home purchase.

Asking for a better deal is hardly seeing myself as "God's Gift". Have a little self-respect and negotiate. I agree with what many others have said-if you say "Yes" to a contract then you wear it. Only don't complain later when you get moved from MEL to DWN and they tell you that you pick up the tab.

My current employers condition have full pay from day one. That is a good start to a relationship with any employer.

* As Wynsock and I have found, they are out there. At my current employer, I said at interview that it was appropriate that they pay for my rating and more money then was offered. When contract details were sent, guess what?? :p

And they have a happy, loyal employee- winners all round. :D

ejectx3

22nd Nov 2010, 03:24

Bloody terrrible state of affairs, but the FAM does have a clause prohibiting talking to the media...
1.5.3 Information to the Media....

I had better not post it here in case I get shot.

And yes Joe has been terminated.

GA Driver

22nd Nov 2010, 04:05

crew rest. Thats a pretty good position to be in with your experience levels + type ratings etc, it's also safe to assume that should I have that experience, I too would spell out that I wouldn't be prepared to pay for the things you've outlined.
But with the level of experience you have I doubt you are new to this game and whilst it's a guess on my part, it would be probable that there wasn't any low cost operators asking for BYO endorsements back when you commenced an airline career?? So whilst I agree with your point, the state of the industry just isn't the same as guys who entered the industry 10+ years ago.

So it's back to what I said a few posts ago, what are people meant to do in the interim, sit back and wait for something to change whilst the people who DO earn great incomes on great T+C skim all the cream and do nothing themselves?

Back to the topic, YES, Joe HAS been sacked.

Capt Kremin

22nd Nov 2010, 04:39

That passage in the FAM is pretty all-encompassing. So all encompassing as to be unworkable.
If a pilot tells his wife about an incident he had during the day, he is in breach of the FAM. I wonder how many pilot managers ever talked about any aspect of Qantas operations to someone not in the Company, including their immediate family?

If they do, they are as guilty as Joe.

Iron Bar

22nd Nov 2010, 05:09

4.41 Company Business
Jetstar Airways staff shall not discuss company business with representatives of
the media or the public nor communicate in writing to the media or public.
Staff must carefully guard against discussing company matters within the hearing of members of the public.

Jabawocky

22nd Nov 2010, 06:51

So all encompassing as to be unworkable.

And herein may lie the angle of attack, you are not permitted to impose restrictions in any contract that are unworkable.

And what is the intent of 4.41 ? I would normally read that as to mean commercial in confidence type of restriction. The article published in the media was a general article on the state of affairs in the commercial aviation world with references to the cadet scheme's and offshoring of pilots etc by Jetstar. Neither of which is commercial in confidence because it was widely public knowledge.

The AIPA should take a firm stand here. And anywhere else they deem necessary.

Where is Horatio Leafblower for an opinion on this?

Crew rest.

22nd Nov 2010, 07:32

GA Driver, you have asked a very, very worthy question:

what are people meant to do in the interim, sit back and wait for something to change whilst the people who DO earn great incomes on great T+C skim all the cream and do nothing themselves?

Organise yourselves is the only thing that I think would help solve the problem our industry faces. I have been a member of a union since I entered the work force. I have been variously a member of a union since I left school and entered the work force. If you aren't in a union, you have rocks in you head.

I take your point, it is very difficult to negotiate when you are new to the industry and perhaps do not have negotiating skills. It is a skill to ask for more than on offer and not talk your way out of a job. You cannot bang the table with your fist or demand. What you need to say is that "the current discussion is interim until the contract is on offer to be signed. It would be preferable/appropriate/desirable/etc that the contract should include X,Y and Z". The best way to negotiate is collectively.

My application to Jetstar was 4 years ago. Add another type rating and 2,000 hrs to my initial application, I still have net heard from them. At the risk of being labeled smug, I think that my application and their lack of response is proof that Jetstar is not interested in employing highly experienced people, only those who will pay their way and support their immediate bottom line(any Journos reading this??).

What has happened to Joe is a disgrace. How can we support this guy and his family? Is there a fund? I would like to contribute $500.

What is AIPA doing? Is a strike being proposed? I know what the TWU would do if this happened to a Truckie. :cool:

Normasars

22nd Nov 2010, 08:00

I know what the TWU would do if this happened to a Truckie.

Crew rest. Therein lies your answer.

Truckies stick together. "One in; All in"

And back on topic. What has happened to Joe is outrageous. But one would assume that a man of his calibre would have evaluated the ramifications before going public. Possible consequences must have been in his mind before blowing the whistle.

Mstr Caution

22nd Nov 2010, 10:59

The World Today - Jetstar safety record on show 15/11/2010 (http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2010/s3066304.htm)

When asked about GK's submission to the senate enquiry regarding crew training standards.

BRUCE BUCHANAN: Oh, absolutely. I think anyone can raise any concerns they have got.

& in the full audio version, BB comments on staff engagement.

B.B: they are passionate, engaged about what we do.

SilverSleuth

22nd Nov 2010, 20:22

GA DRIVER Said :Back to the topic, YES, Joe HAS been sacked

So what are the Jstar pilots doing about this? I read a lot of justifications of why they took jobs and conditions but read very little from Jstar crew about the poor bloke who has been sacked. Are you going to do something about this? Stopping for a meeting? Why isn't the pilot group and union in the media shouting this? This will be disgusting if they get away with this and nothing happens.

A. Le Rhone

22nd Nov 2010, 21:51

C'mon. It's now Tuesday and this was being talked about on Saturday.

Time is of the essence to right a very clear wrong and take charge of yourselves and your future careers and finally stop yourselves from being bullied and treated like scum.

Clockwork Doll

22nd Nov 2010, 23:14

I read a lot of justifications of why they took jobs and conditions but read very little from Jstar crew about the poor bloke who has been sacked. Are you going to do something about this? Stopping for a meeting? Why isn't the pilot group and union in the media shouting this? This will be disgusting if they get away with this and nothing happens.

Ah, they probably aren't doing anything because the guy blatantly contravened the company's Code of Conduct policy with an emotive piece of fiction so they don't have a leg to stand on... And if they try to cry to the media about it the public will want to know why a pilot should be exempt from the same policies that every other employee is bound by.

Y0SSARIAN

22nd Nov 2010, 23:58

I think you will find that the Fair Work Act's Freedom of Association provisions explicitly override anything contained in an industrial agreement such as an EBA or an ancillary document such as an employee "code of conduct" booklet.

I also think you will find that AIPA are concerning themselves with getting this guy's job back as their first priority before they "release the dogs of war" to the courts and the media should more subtle measures of negotiation prove ineffective.

metrosmoker

23rd Nov 2010, 00:43

A few points for consideration.

Firstly, it is Tuesday, and apart from this site and JQ pilot forum, no mention of this anywhere. What is the mighty AIPA doing?

Secondly, after been constantly hounded to join a union over the last 6 months, an having joined about a month ago, I have to state the following. " You must join a union for your own benefit, cause the company will hang you out to dry and you need representation to prevent this happening". Well, old mate was in the union and they couldn`t stop this from happening.

Thirdly, did JE run the article by AIPA legal before sending it to the media? If not, then a silly move. If so, why didn`t AIPA advise him to remove his name. Could have kept his title at the bottom. Why didn`t AIPA submit the aritcle on his behalf? (I can hear some of the responses being typed right now. If AIPA did know about the article, they would certainly have know that it was going to light a fire.) I hope it was not a attempt by AIPA to highlight the very clear and correct issues affecting J* and the QF group, using an actually pilot and name which has backfired in a most extreme way.

Lastly, what are J* pilots suppose to do. We have been told constantly over the last few months by AIPA and the JPC President, what we can and can`t do legally (can do is a very short list and can`t do is a very long list). Now I am hearing calls to take action from what I can only assume are guys not working at J*. And then the JPC head, pleading with people to take no action. ( i haven`t heard one person within the company with a, 'call to arms', 'unleash the dogs or war', etc.) So the JPC calls seem a little clouded and confused.

Tell me what I should do, can do and what AIPA are doing?

waren9

23rd Nov 2010, 00:55

Msmoker, relax.

AIPA and the JPC dont run to PPRuNe to update the table thumpers here.

Just because they havent posted doesnt mean nothings happening.

AIPA knows more about IR law than anyone thats posted here and if there was an immediate action to take that was beneficial they would have already said so.

If anyone here has concerns they would like allayed, for gods sake pick up the bloody phone.

Fear, uncertainty and scaremongering on here is wholly unproductive and one of the worst things we can do to ourselves as a pilot body.

Well done on joining AIPA.

W9

managed

23rd Nov 2010, 03:19

Hey Metro Man

While you are on the phone why not ring JE and ask if he is getting his money's worth out of AIPA. Or ask that poor sod who got the bullet from J* a month earlier if they are happy with the way they are being represented.

Clockwork Doll

23rd Nov 2010, 07:07

I think you will find that the Fair Work Act's Freedom of Association provisions explicitly override anything contained in an industrial agreement such as an EBA or an ancillary document such as an employee "code of conduct" booklet.

If what he had to say was factual you may have a point - so it's a pity that he published misinformation designed to incite support of an opinion. That others have the same opinion does not make it fact. So, not really a leg to stand on is there...

waren9

23rd Nov 2010, 08:21

that poor sod who got the bullet from J* a month earlier

openly admitted using a document with intent to defraud. AIPA is a union, not Jesus.

Mr. Hat

23rd Nov 2010, 10:54

For anyone that hasn't read it:

I can still recall the first time I looked skyward to watch a jumbo jet soar overhead. As a 10-year-old growing up in the late 1980s, I dreamed that one day I would be at the controls of one of those mighty machines as it roared through the skies.

After 10 years as a pilot, currently as a First Officer on Airbus A330's, the thrill is still there.

But the next generation of youngsters with the same dream may never realise it, with the latest cost-cutting attempts by airline bean counters threatening the very existence of an Australian aviation sector.

Jetstar have led the way, recently announcing a plan to cut pilot labour costs by hiring crew for several new Australian-registered A330 aircraft, operated under Australian Air Operator's Certificates, out of Singapore where they will employ air crew on wages well below their Australian-based colleagues.

While they are offering the jobs to Australian pilots first, albeit on contracts that cut basic remuneration by almost 50 per cent, the remaining positions will be filled out of Singapore and Vietnam.

This follows similar moves with their New Zealand-based JetConnect subsidiary, that pays pilots about 70 per cent of their Australian colleagues' wages, and the "offshoring" of a large proportion of Jetstar's Australian-based international flight attendants to Thailand and Singapore.

Many of these Australian employees have been replaced by workers flown in from "bases of convenience" in Singapore and Bangkok on employment conditions well below the applicable Australian award.

While the conditions of flight crew have come under the knife, Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan has been promoted by creating an additional layer of management between himself and operational staff, and in doing so has been rewarded with a 43 per cent pay rise.

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce has also joined the cause, last week accusing pilots of being in "cloud-cuckoo land" for opposing the offshoring of jobs, saying: "The fact is that we are in a highly competitive market, we need to have an Asian carrier with Asian rates." The irony of this statement is that the Qantas Group already has two Asian carriers with Asian rates, Jetstar Asia and Jetstar Pacific.

What Joyce is trying to do is to distract the public gaze from the real point of contention, which is having an Australian carrier operating on Australian routes, but having employees paid "Asian rates" through artificially manufactured overseas bases.

The Australian and International Pilot's Association, which represents the majority of Jetstar pilots, is taking legal action arguing that pilots flying Australian aircraft on Australian routes should be paid the same wages as local crew, whether they are flying out of New Zealand or Singapore.

Pilots, through AIPA, have also expressed concern regarding the company's desire to undermine the pilot seniority system as a mechanism for promotion, which is standard practice in almost all the world's respected Airlines.

While the new Jetstar contracts that promote pilots according to "merit" may sound like a good idea, it is important to take a closer look. Airline pilots, like many other professionals, are paid as much to refuse to do certain things as they are to get the job done. Every day in the life of a professional airline pilot is spent evaluating risks and determining the safest course of action. Sometimes this safest course of action will be at odds with the short-term commercial imperatives of the company.

A pilot operating within a seniority system has no incentive to take risks or break the rules to appease management and increase their chances of promotion. Conversely a pilot operating under the "merit"-based promotion system, particularly in a company that views cost saving as its fundamental value, will be under implicit pressure to please management or risk their career advancement prospects.

These disputes have broad implications for all Australians. Firstly, our reputation for aviation excellence has been built on the dedication, training, hard work and experience of local pilots over many decades, a culture that will be obliterated if the offshoring push continues and the proven and effective seniority system is scrapped.

Secondly, Jetstar has demonstrated that, while WorkChoices may be "dead and buried", the new Fair Work Act can be circumvented and draconian workplace conditions can be imposed through the use of foreign "bases of convenience", allowing Australian operations to be staffed with people on Third World wages and working conditions.

Already young pilots who have successfully completed recruitment with Jetstar Australia have been contacted by the company and offered New Zealand or Singaporean contracts on unfavourable terms.

The Australian aviation sector is at a crossroads. Not only are the dreams of the youngsters who look skyward at risk, but the institutions that created our reputation for safety through well trained experienced pilots is under threat, which is bad news for all Australians.

Joseph Eakins is a Jetstar A330 First Officer and a member of the Australian and International Pilot's Association.

A. Le Rhone

23rd Nov 2010, 12:13

Clockwork Doll said "its a pity that he published misinformation designed to incite support of an opinion"

Sorry am I missing something here?

Is Joe Eakins' item not a coherent and restrained precis of the state of the industry in Australia at present?

An industry where numbskull managers are hell-bent on screwing everybody and savaging all expenses in order to climb the corporate ladder and fatten their own wallets via incentive bonuses. Where guffawing slaps-on-the-back by fellow 'titans of industry' far outweigh any social injustice or damage done. Where if treating everybody like excrement means I get invited to drinks at G.Harvey's place it will all be worth it? What a pathetic way of living life.

This nonsense is why unions, as unfashionable as they currently are after the extremes of the 60's and 70's, are vital.

And at the end of the day when you're about to set foot in the grave, I can't really believe that todays' "revered" hard-nosed CEO could feel good about his life for having so successfully screwed so many people for what is his own benefit. If as a CEO, that's your contribution to this earth then in my opinion you should be ashamed of yourself. And like a dag on the bum of a sheep, industrial 'advocate' clingons have even less to be proud of.

Joe Eakins may not make millions of $ in his life (although I suspect he is sufficiently intelligent that he will succeed at anything he does) but judging by the sentiments in his article he will sure as hell get more out of life than somebody who worships the almighty dollar to the extent that he will screw anybody and anything that gets in his way.

$$$$ are not the only yardstick of personal worth.

And if Australian pilots don't get organised and grow some collective cohones and unity then this type of obsenity will simply keep recurring.

Red-wine rant now complete

Jack Sprat

23rd Nov 2010, 20:10

Doll - are you going to specify what you think the "misinformation" is? If not, then your contribution is little better.

For those presently undertaking hugely expensive flying training, you could give them some useful information - couldn't you?

xjt

23rd Nov 2010, 20:25

Well been flying the line the past couple of days....and if i had not bought it up...it would not even make conversation....Pushing the hard line about this and not even a reaction. Nobody seems to think at, J* that this is something that requires "a little thought".................quite shameful...

bonvol

23rd Nov 2010, 23:04

Well thats not surprising.

The place is run by scabs from the war. They have it inbuilt into their DNA to let you down.

Normasars

23rd Nov 2010, 23:18

ALR,

Good post mate. However, as I said before and you were quick to get stuck into me

"it will never happen"

regards

Norma

Clockwork Doll

24th Nov 2010, 05:15

Doll - are you going to specify what you think the "misinformation" is? If not, then your contribution is little better.

If you really don't know the answer Jack Sprat then I guess I will...

Jetstar have led the way, recently announcing a plan to cut pilot labour costs by hiring crew for several new Australian-registered A330 aircraft, operated under Australian Air Operator's Certificates, out of Singapore where they will employ air crew on wages well below their Australian-based colleagues.

Aircraft operating on the Australian AOC is a temporary measure only.

While they are offering the jobs to Australian pilots first, albeit on contracts that cut basic remuneration by almost 50 per cent, the remaining positions will be filled out of Singapore and Vietnam.

Reference to cut in remuneration is a blatant lie - do the maths...

What Joyce is trying to do is to distract the public gaze from the real point of contention, which is having an Australian carrier operating on Australian routes, but having employees paid "Asian rates" through artificially manufactured overseas bases.

One route will be Australian - Singapore/Melbourne. The next planned routes are not.

A pilot operating within a seniority system has no incentive to take risks or break the rules to appease management and increase their chances of promotion.

No, they just do it in a seniority based system because they think they know better than management, the Operations Manual and FCOMs...

Secondly, Jetstar has demonstrated that, while WorkChoices may be "dead and buried", the new Fair Work Act can be circumvented and draconian workplace conditions can be imposed through the use of foreign "bases of convenience", allowing Australian operations to be staffed with people on Third World wages and working conditions.

Please name all of those people in the Third World who get paid just under $10,000 a month for doing absolutely no work, which is what this 'dreadful Singapore deal' guarantees.

These are just a few - read the article again and see if you can pick out some of the others...

Pontius

24th Nov 2010, 06:00

get paid just under $10,000 a month for doing absolutely no work, which is what this 'dreadful Singapore deal' guarantees.

Where can I get details of this deal or did your reasoned argument become a misinformed rant at the last second?

Clockwork Doll

24th Nov 2010, 06:57

Where can I get details of this deal or did your reasoned argument become a misinformed rant at the last second?

You can get this information by doing your research instead of following the flock of chinese whisperers...

That's the guaranteed $$$ minimum per month assuming there isn't enough flying - but given the flying hours will be considerably higher than for pilots based in Australia due to base numbers, they'll be earning a whole lot more than that. Taking into account the tax advantages and that their super component is paid direct to them they are going to be happy boys come the EOFY! Happier than many of the ones here who keep talking about the draconion pay & work conditions.

And before someone says that they won't be eligible for the tax benefits - DO YOUR RESEARCH!!

Pontius

24th Nov 2010, 07:10

Clockwork Doll

24th Nov 2010, 08:17

You misunderstand; I don't want the job and certainly couldn't afford to earn that little. However, you talk about misinformation and selectively 'answer' quotations but then you go off on a rant about $10000 for doing absolutely 'no work' and that's a guarantee. I'm doing my research and just trying to ensure it's not 'misinformation' being planted by a management stooge.

I didn't misunderstand - you asked where you could get information on this deal and I told you. I don't recall implying that you had any interest in taking a job...

Rather than ranting I was demonstrating that equating the deal with Third World conditions is preposterous. The suggestion that a guaranteed minimum of $10000 a month is comparative to the Third World is a fair indication of how far removed from the reality of global economics pilots have become as a profession.

Finally, as for answering selective quotes I simply have neither the time nor inclination to answer the entire article sentence by sentence. The frequenters of this forum will believe what they want to believe, regardless of the truth... and I have far better things to do than bang my head against a brick wall :ugh:

ferris

24th Nov 2010, 08:30

I was demonstrating that equating the deal with Third World conditions is preposterous. Agreed. You would want a lot more (and will get it) to go and work in the 'Third World'.
a fair indication of how far removed from the reality of global economics pilots have become as a profession. Never a truer word spoken. It was only a decade or so ago that a pilot earned about 10% of the CEO. Based on recent rates, pilots are now earning incredibly less. Another excellent point, CD.

Fubar_x

24th Nov 2010, 08:34

If you buy a house by an airport, then start bitching about noise; or, sign an agreement, then want to renege on the deal; or, have taken a job you did not want, then it's time for honesty.

You knew it was a crook deal, or, you were blinded by a shiny new jet.

Tough titties. You signed, you take the money, you sign the COM, you take the 217 pass.

Why is this a bitch fest???. Not hostile, curious.

Y0SSARIAN

24th Nov 2010, 12:30

Aircraft operating on the Australian AOC is a temporary measure only.

Just like JQNZ operating SYD-Nandi and the flight attendants operating out of BKK and SIN crewing the majority of JQ international and “domestic tag” flying on “regionally relevant” wages. Give me a break.

Reference to cut in remuneration is a blatant lie - do the maths...

JQ AUS (SIN BASE) A-330 CAPT base pay $120 000 SGD/1.28 (Xe.com mid-market rate)= $93 750 AUD base pay versus A-330 Wide Body Captain as per Jetstar Pilot’s EBA 2008 for year starting 1 Jan 2011- $180,871. 93 750/180 871(x100/1)= a 48.2% pay reduction. Almost 50%, in fact it would have been very close as stated by the author when the article was submitted and the exchange rate was $1AUD=$1.30SGD. So you do the math. And I stand to be corrected.

One route will be Australian - Singapore/Melbourne. The next planned routes are not.

Like SYD-HNL or CNS-NRT or virtually all Australian based international routes for the flight attendants. It is a lie, and the more I see of them, the more I hate lies. Do you think that it is “just one”? If that is the case, then you are as naive as you are blinkered. Alternatively you could merely be a management stooge justifying the unjustifiable for your own personal gain. Let the readers of this forum be the judge.

No, they just do it in a seniority based system because they think they know better than management, the Operations Manual and FCOMs...

So you refute the assertion that pilots that refuse to toe the company line are disciplined or refused promotion. So you think that Pilots with straight 4’s and 5’s will get promotion in your system if they question it? How many of management pilots in the said organisation are ex AN “mates” looking to feather their retirement? (No disrespect to all the great ex AN pilots trying to make the organisation a better place). The answer to this question my friend will be determined by far higher powers than ourselves.

Please name all of those people in the Third World who get paid just under $10,000 a month for doing absolutely no work, which is what this 'dreadful Singapore deal' guarantees.

Each and every one of the flight attendants who are being used to displace Australian employees from Australian flying and in the near future and each and every pilot “based” out of Singapore who is paid less than the Air Pilots Award 2010 to fly Australian Registered Aircraft on Australian routes.

Please Clockwork Droll, do your research and until then get back to your gardenia plantation until you have something more useful to say.

TIMA9X

25th Nov 2010, 12:45

Posted without comment
Jetstar pilot sacked after criticising airline (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/jetstar-pilot-sacked-after-criticising-airline-20101125-18960.html)
Qantas's low-cost subsidiary Jetstar faces a legal challenge under unfair dismissal and freedom-of-association laws after it sacked a pilot who expressed safety concerns about the airline to the Herald.
Jetstar sacked Joseph Eakins, 31 - a pilot with the airline since 2007 with 5500 hours experience - a month after Fairfax Media news websites published his concerns last month.
Mr Eakins, 31, a Jetstar Airbus A330 first officer and a representative with the Australian and International Pilots Association, criticised the discount airline's ''offshore'' employment strategy.
In the opinion piece, Mr Eakins wrote that Australia's aviation safety culture '' … will be obliterated if the offshoring push continues … Draconian workplace conditions can be imposed through the use of foreign 'bases of convenience', allowing … Third World wages and working conditions.''

''I feel like my life has been destroyed for speaking up and telling the truth in a legitimate and measured manner,'' Mr Eakins said.

Capt Kremin

25th Nov 2010, 20:18

For the conspiracy theorists, it seems it was actually AIPA that got the original article pulled from the SMH website.

no_more_bets

25th Nov 2010, 20:26

The best thing everyone could do now is to go to the article Challenge to pilot's sacking (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/challenge-to-pilots-sacking-20101125-1895h.html) and repost it on their facebook/tweet on twitter (links on the left of the page). The more people that read this the better, and generating more traffic on the article tells the newpaper that the story is newsworthy.

Di_Vosh

25th Nov 2010, 20:47

Clockwork Doll

25th Nov 2010, 21:35

Well I see that there is at least one person capable of doing their calculations correctly - thanks for saving me the trouble there OYY1. So Yossarian, how about you doing your research and presenting factual calculations in the future if you want to show off your math prowess?

BTW does it make you feel like a big man making a personal attack on me? Well bring it on. Interesting that almost everyone here who posts an alternative view to that of the masses is labelled a managment stooge and has some derogatory comment made about them.

Singapore is not a third world country - so you better re-do that list for me Yossaris. But FYI pay rates in third world countries for the average worker are closer to $100 dollars a month (I'm being generous) for working their asses off. Aside from that, I'm pretty sure these flight attendants you go on about in your list will be pretty interested to know that's what they are earning, and I believe the Australian flight attendants will be pretty damn pissed if that's the case too! They'll all be running to get one of these off shore contracts - idiot!

Now tell me, if the company is so reprehensible why don't you quit and work somewhere else? Oh that's right, because that seniority system of yours would see you right at the bottom of a very long ladder... Actually I am not claiming that one system is better than another - the people who break the rules under a seniority system will break the rules under a merit based system or a combined system, because such people will be morons under whatever system they operate. So claiming that one system is better than another from a safety perspective is at best misleading.

Anyway, it's time for me to leave this mud pit now.... but have fun attacking me while I'm gone if it makes you feel good :ouch:

Clockwork Doll

25th Nov 2010, 21:49

One more point to consider is that the ATO may choose to consider such a pilot as a resident for Australian tax purposes. Which means a reduction in Net pay.

This has been discussed elsewhere at length. But IIRC, the general consensus was that the ATO would sting you for the difference.

The tax department says otherwise. But that's the type of research people need to do instead of listening to the 'general consensus' being discussed among pilots who have little knowledge of the tax laws beyond what they read on the web.

WorthWhat

25th Nov 2010, 21:52

Jetstar sacks pilot who raised safety concerns

By Timothy McDonald

http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r352590_1618363.jpg (http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200903/r352590_1618368.jpg)

Former Jetstar pilot Joe Eakins says the airline sacked him because he criticised his employer in an article published in the Fairfax Press.

Audio: Jetstar pilot says he was sacked over public comments (AM) (http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/news/audio/am/201011/20101126-am-5-jetstar-pilot.mp3)
Related Story: Jetstar plane forced to turn back (http://www.pprune.org/news/stories/2010/11/16/3068217.htm)
Related Story: AirAsia takes on Jetstar on Darwin-to-Bali route (http://www.pprune.org/news/stories/2010/11/23/3074050.htm)
Related Story: Fuel problem strands 240 Jetstar passengers (http://www.pprune.org/news/stories/2010/11/25/3076804.htm).So where is the industry as a whole going? Well, according to Sunfish:

The answer is backwards, certainly in Australia and probably internationally if recent revelations about the Indian subcontinent, the behaviour of the likes of Ryanair are anything to go by. Read the Colgan Buffalo crash cockpit transcript and weep. Two poor schmucks trying to make a dollar, and flying wasn't even their first career choice! Look at the current situation of Sunstate engineers - being docked four hours pay for being a little slow changing a tire! Look at the procession of cases sent to the AAT regarding CASA! Look at the air traffic control incident involving Emirates and Qantas and the perennial discussions about the difficulty of recruiting and training ATC staff! Look at criticism of Jetstars pilot cadet scheme.

Ah! You say, "but none of these incidents are related!" Of course they effing well are! They are all related to the practice of current management in many organisations of trying to get blood out of a stone and ignoring effects on corporate culture, let alone the feelings of the individual employees concerned, let alone the long term negative effects of their bastardry on the organisation. Airlines are fertile grounds for bastardry because they consist of the differing tribes of pilots engineers, cabin crew as well as office staff. There are almost infinite gradations in the various pecking orders caused by seniority, aircraft type, qualifications and suchlike, all held together by Twenty Four hour duty rosters that can be played like a violin by management intent on gratifying itself by causing misery. This is trust reducing behaviour and it is going to bite you.

Continue you current management behaviour Qantas, and you will go the way of Ansett. The RR/A380 thing was a bit of a surprise wasn't it? Let the regulator and ATC continue on their merry way as well and wait for the eventual Coroners Inquiry and Royal Commission, it's coming.

A. Le Rhone

25th Nov 2010, 22:09

Of for goodness sake Clockwork your being very precious....yes personal attacks are pointless on this forum and indicative of the state we have let ourselves get into but just have a look at what you are defending......

Years ago the profession of pilot was well-regarded, well-paid and relatively secure. Upwardly mobile managers with the assistance of the selfish amongst our own ranks have helped to decimate that to the point where it is simply not viable spending a fortune on learning to fly only to end up with a rag-tag outfit like at least 2 Australian airlines. Airlines that are so myopic that rather than actually address the problems they are creating they sack somebody who dares to highlight this situation.

On a global standard, in comparison to other airlines Qantas is fair to middling in terms of quality of life and compensation. I have a fair idea of this myself having seen a number first-hand. Virgin is described by most of the people I speak to there as 'adequate' but in hindsight not something they would have set their sights on as a kid learning to fly.

The folks who fly/flew for Jetstar almost to a man seem to hate it. Not just mildly dislike but hate. I'm sure not everybody feels that way but it seems to be the general feeling. The only difference between pilots there is some have the ability and courage to pack up bags and head overseas. And to a man they are SO happy to get out of there.

And for the life of me having seen the standards of pilots trained in less than professional jurisdictions I cannot understand the stupidity of managers who think it's a sensible business plan to set up 'flag of convenience' airlines in countries other than where they are based simply to screw with thing like pilot terms and conditions. Sure it looks good on paper but for gods sake look at the minefield of risks this is opening.

There are things in the aviation industry you shouldn't mess with. Maintenance is one (Qantas currently having 'karma' from it's messing with apprenticeships and screwing engineers?). The other is pilot standards. Not only 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys' but you potentially kill people.

Who will be held accountable for killing people?

Joe Eakins had the guts to raise this point and got the sack for it and people amongst us (like Clockwork Doll who may or may not be a 'management stooge' but sure sounds like it) are sufficiently myopic/brainwashed or paid to come on here - that they actually defend such a situation.

Something is rotten in this industry. Joe got sacked for highlighting it and we do very little to counter this situation - at our own peril. I may sound melodramatic but this is happening right before our eyes.

Keep the pressure on now people (like getting Joes' article back in today's Fairfax press) before an aircraft flown by over-worked, underpaid and particularly undertrained pilots full of Australian passengers flies into a hill.

All to save a few dollars and increase some 'Master of the Universe' CEO's bonus.

Jabawocky

25th Nov 2010, 23:36

Just been comparing the two instances of pilots stories in the media of late. One guy was brave enough to offer credibility by declaring his identity. The other was protected by the media (although how secure that is time will tell).

Now this just shoots the constant bashing by a certain well known ppruner in the backside. := It does not pay to be critical with your own name in this industry! :sad:

What-ho Squiffy!

25th Nov 2010, 23:40

I got to page three of this thread and my eyes started bleeding.

You boys (not all, mind you) remind me of the People's Front of Judea.

Sit around here and endlessly discuss things, form a sub-committee to debate what actions should be taken, and argue whether it's the PFJ of the JPF.

Meanwhile, Brian gets crucified.

Get off your goddamn computer. Pick up the phone. Arrange a meeting. Get some solidarity. Sort it out. It will involve a physical action and maybe even laying your jobs on the line.

Let it go, and it will be sorted out alright. By a major prang, after which everybody will bleat: "Why was nothing done?"

And CASA - I'm looking at you too.

:mad:

virginexcess

25th Nov 2010, 23:49

So Boys, the time is now upon us.

One of our colleagues has been fired for putting his balls on the line and stating publicly what many here have been saying privately. He has done this, presumably, in an attempt to stop the slide of conditions in our industry. In other words, he did it for us all.

Now comes the big test. If AIPA fail to get this guy reinstated through FWA, who is going to make the stand. If the pilots of Australia stand idly buy and let this guy lose his job, and fail to take any action, then the message management will hear is that (as we already suspect) the pilots of Australia are a bunch of gutless, self centered prima donnas.

This is the hour my friends. If we do not stand up for Joe Eakins, and I'm talking taking it to the wire, then Buchanan and Joyce will have a green light to do whatever they want, because they will know that the pilots are too frightened to fight.

Make no mistake, Virgin and Tiger are going to be watching as well. They will also be reading the tea leaves if there is no industrial support for Joe.

The future is now in our hands. If the industry supports this guy, then the message to the bosses will be equally clear, and it will be that they have now pushed too far and the pilots are prepared to make a stand to stop the rot.

Interesting times indeed.

mostlytossas

26th Nov 2010, 00:03

I wonder if the bookies will take bets on how quick AIPA rolls over?
Bite down hard boys you all know they will.
I hear AIPA are really,really cross and will even consider a harshly worded letter!
Real unions like the TWU must be shaking their heads in disbelief at you lot.

Ex FSO GRIFFO

26th Nov 2010, 00:04

Its in this morning's Daily Telegraph.....

'On Line' version received today Fri 26/11/10.....

Pilot sacked for questioning airline safety | The Daily Telegraph (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw-act/pilot-sacked-for-questioning-airline-safety/story-e6freuzi-1225961138572?referrer=email&source=Punch_nl&emcmp=Punch&emchn=Newsletter&emlist=Member)

Good Luck Guys and Gals......:ok:

teresa green

26th Nov 2010, 00:31

It might be a real good idea JQ, to have a look at what the young bloke said, digest it, could it be right, do you need to change a few things, or are you going down a blind path, that could well come to a sticky end. Rather than shoot the messenger, perhaps listen to someone who cared enough to put his job on the line. AIPA, get this bloke back to work, and the rest of you, get behind him, you know how, without downing tools, there are other ways. If you fail this young bloke, you are going to be on the chopping block for ever more, we learnt a lot from 89' but since then the pilots have had little say, in fact they have been kept submissive with the ever threat of "we know how to fix you bastards" attitude. Want to spend the rest of your working life like that?:=

SimonBl

26th Nov 2010, 00:48

Also heard mention of this on ABC radio in Perth this morning, which is why I came looking for info.

C441

26th Nov 2010, 01:26

second item on ABC radio news this morning fllowed by a short interview of AIPA President and Jetstar CEO on "AM".

ABC AM (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2010/s3076511.htm)

ABC News (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/11/26/3077073.htm)

The The

26th Nov 2010, 03:24

So now we have huge media attention on Jetstar over the sacking rather than the almost non-attention in the media the original letter raised.

Smartest guys in the room this J* management!:ugh:

novice110

26th Nov 2010, 04:04

I disagree.

This story has long way to run and is getting traction in some influential areas .
Sorry I can't be more specific.

Capt Kremin

26th Nov 2010, 04:43

Joe's dismissal has been variously reported as that of a "whistleblower" and related to "safety issues." that is all the public will see.

I agree, Jetstar have shot themselves in the foot with this.

Normasars

26th Nov 2010, 04:49

Capt Kremin,

I am the first to give credit where it is due. However, you and I both know that it is black and white stated in the FAM. As an employee, we are not allowed to canvas the media in any way, shape or form, without the approval of Management. God forbid **** canning the Co without said approval. Which ever way anyone looks at it, Joe made a grave judgement call with this. As I said in a previous post, SURELY he knew of the possible ramifications.

In a court of law, he hasn't a leg to stand on.

struggling

26th Nov 2010, 04:57

However, in the Court of Public Opinion, Jetstar Management may well be caned and the reputation of their employer diminished.

No matter which way you look at it, is PR disaster in the making.

Normasars

26th Nov 2010, 05:01

Yes Struggling, I hope these pricks get their day.

However, SURELY he knew of the consequences.

victor two

26th Nov 2010, 05:02

I agree with the last post. This guy has attempted to make Jetstar look unsafe in the national press when the issue is actually linked to an industrial relations spat. In all the posts I have read here, no-one has actually been able to demonstrate that aircrew or passenger safety is at risk for any specific reason. Like a lot of unionists, this guy is attempting to get traction for his complaint by turning what is an EBA squabble into a "safety" matter as the safety element will attract media interest.

In short - he deserved to be sacked! They should also sue the bloke for a 5 milion dollars for making unfounded defamatory comments!

Hugh Jarse

26th Nov 2010, 05:07

Gidday Normasars,

The FAM goes something like this: ''It relates to not making public information which is either false or misleading or brings the company into disrepute."(my bolding)(To quote Westaway).

It seems Joe may have (sadly) tripped up on the last item: "bringing the company into disrepute". His press release appears to be neither false nor misleading, so it has to be that, considering Westaway hasn't refuted the first 2 items :}.....

I thought that to bring a company into disrepute, the company first has to have a reputation :cool:

I sincerely hope he has a successful unfair dismissal hearing, just like the many others that have preceded him in the QUANTAS Group. :ok:

Normasars

26th Nov 2010, 05:21

Hi Jarse,

Hope you and yours are well mate.

I take it from your quoting of the FAM, that you NEVER returned said manual on your departure :D.

I thought it was part of the exit interview process to hand back the Manual Suite in its entirity. Certainly was with me.:)

And just to correct you on your point above, JQ certainly DO have a reputation; not an enviable one, but they do have one :ok:

blow.n.gasket

26th Nov 2010, 05:33

Escalate the PR nightmare for Jetstar and it's management that this issue could quite easily become .

Start a petition for the REINSTATEMENT OF JOE!

Have the petition state, or something to the following effect,
"I the undersigned do hereby boycott travelling with Jetstar until F/O Joe is reinstated.I will also be telling all family and friends to boycott Jetstar until Jetstar management recind their decision to terminate Joe's employment."

Use face-book,and any other social networking venue, would the Mods consider setting up a voting feature for PPRuNer's to show their support?, set up a petition book at the airport, have a car with loud speakers doing laps at Sydney airport blaring out what Jetstar management have done, then have the media standing buy to film the inevitable eviction.
Hell then you could start a whole new video stream on you-tube with

"Jetstar desperate to hide the truth".

Would AIPA be willing to help with the logistics of this idea?

"GO JOE"

Capt Kremin

26th Nov 2010, 05:37

Victor 2, you obviously haven't read what Joe wrote. The only safety related part in it referred to the removal of the seniority system to be replaced by "merit".
What followed then was purely Joe's personal opinion, backed up by many professional pilots no doubt, that the removal of a seniority system for promotion discourages speaking out.

Joe's piece WAS industrial, which makes it so brave.

We have to ask ourselves as a profession and as a country; do we allow free speech or not?

AIPA have said they would take this to the High Court if necessary. In the mean time Joe will need to be supported.

MrWooby

26th Nov 2010, 05:59

Victor two, it does have huge safety implications. Jetstar management want to fill crew positions at the least possible cost, that means bypassing australian recruitment and filling positions based O/S. Now thats not to bad if you get quality pilots, and no doubt the captains will be experienced capts. However what about FO's, thse will generally be very inexperienced pilots from asia's training schools. Jetstar management see a person who has a pilots licence and treat him as employable without looking at the quality of training. Take a look at the report on Pprune from india about the FO who couldn't recover the aircraft from a minor upset when the captain left the flight desck to go to the toilet. Thats where all this is heading !

struggling

26th Nov 2010, 06:07

Agree C.K. Joe does need to be financially supported.

Between AIPA and its 2500 members, there is no reason he should be concerned about his immediate financial security. Just $20 per member would cover the time it takes for the Laws Courts, and/or the Court of Public Opinion to hand down judgement.

After tax, it would be just $10 per member if AIPA did it by way of a levy.

The Green Goblin

26th Nov 2010, 06:16

Looks like it has finally made commercial television.

Well done. Keep up the momentum. I hear strike action is being thrown around with Christmas on the way.

Might want to highlight those Indian fellas in the press, 'cause their like, will be up the front of your A320 very soon especially if the current management has its way.

The funny part is they fly Qantas Business - go figure!

Hugh Jarse

26th Nov 2010, 06:50

Heh, heh, NORMAS,

They didn't give me the common courtesy of an exit interview. I had already put pen to paper on what I thought of them. Perhaps they used that ;)

Just goes to show they are totally incapable of even following company policy correctly when dealing with regular resignations :8:}.

Which is why I'm confident that Joe will win his unfair dismissal case. Considering QUANTAS1 has lost at least THREE unfair dismissal cases that I'm aware of, just in Eastern alone!

They really are amateurs. Industrial bullies, but amateurs:ok:

1. There's no "U" in QANTAS !!
Correct:ok:

Struggling, I'm sure support would be forthcoming from the broader industry, not just AIPA members. We're all in this together.

DutchRoll

26th Nov 2010, 06:58

Quote I just read in the paper:
The CEO of Jetstar requires a ten percent reduction in the airline costs per year. Wow. After a few years the airline running costs should be asymptotically approaching zero! He's certainly a clever boy, that CEO, coming up with such practical management objectives.

And money has been sent to the Joe Eakins support fund (enough for 3 cases of premium beer - be my guest Joe!:)). Petition will be signed as soon as I can find it!

To Australian Airline Management:

I've just about had enough of your new breed of managerial thugs (and have been on the receiving end of your bastardry myself, but you got screwed didn't you? Because you didn't check your facts first). :mad:

Warmest regards,
Dutchy
QF Mainline F/O

A. Le Rhone

26th Nov 2010, 07:44

Somebody above (victor 2?) suggested this was an IR issue not a safety issue and suggested Joe Eakins himself should be sued!!!!....c'mon please...

From my standpoint it's the biggest bloody safety issue there is. I don't work for the airline in question. I live in Asia. I have seen what stupid managers do to save money - employ undertrained pilots to expand businesses quickly and/or circumvent established training & experience practices. Nice idea but it doesn't work.

Have you heard of Adam Air?

Perhaps Lion Air?

They don't exist anymore but you will see them on Air Crash Investigators on TV. They had idiot managers who cut costs at every corner.

Viva Macau, Grand Air (Philippines), Sempati, Far Eastern Air Transport (Taiwan)? All here not so long ago and all gone - there are many more but I forget their names.

I would dearly love not to see any 'Australian' airline on that list. There is a suggestion I believe that this is a real possibility.

Consequently, if it needed any explaining, This is not an IR issue it is a very grave safety matter. How the hell anybody should suggest Joe Eakins be sued I cannot fathom - let alone this call coming from (allegedly) one of our own on PPRUNE:rolleyes:.

Angle of Attack

26th Nov 2010, 08:43

Joe will get plenty of donations they are rolling in. To the idiots that crap on about him not following the FAM etc, Who Cares? This is big and Jetstar have now pointed the blowtorch in their own face, Oh and I love the smell of a burning orange! Just shows how pathetic the 20's something accountants are running this airline that has survived by leaching flights off an established market. Now as long as the paint on Jetstar's planes dont contain lead i am happy to smell the roasting smoke! Seriously though I cant believe how idiotic these manager clowns are, they have made this event happen, and I can guarantee it is only going to get WORSE! Suffer in your jocks! It is xmas, even though I have to work theres now a possibility I may have it off! :E

ferris

26th Nov 2010, 08:50

Would be a great opportunity for VB to stick the boots in and get some valuable PR as well.
Hire the bloke, "we welcome Australians speaking up etc.", offer to fly punters for the same price if they cancel with 'agent orange' etc. It's endless.

Come on VB- this is an absolute free kick handed to you by some incompetents at the competition!

Signature

26th Nov 2010, 08:52

He's got my support.

Normasars

26th Nov 2010, 09:05

Hey AoA,

Thanks for the "idiot" remark. Really appreciate it. That must make @3800 idiots(pilots only at this stage) in the "group" then including YOU. I didn't see you putting your name to the sword like Joe. Just happy to ride on his coat-tails though eh?? Grow up. Everybody here admires what he has done, but at great cost. I admit I would not have put my name to the letter(would you? NO!), does not make people here losers. With your attitude of giving a spray to people who point out a fact, then your slight of hand comment doesn't help the cause.
As you point out, this is big. If it's so big then why didn't YOU pen something with your name and position on it and mail it to the media. Perhaps YOU value your job and know what is permitted and what is NOT permitted in the Flight Administration Manual.

Muff Hunter

26th Nov 2010, 09:41

I can see a DECEMBER TO REMEMBER coming.............

or perhaps it's a December to forget for JQ management...

Ichiban

26th Nov 2010, 10:22

2UE Radio interview with Joe Eakins

http://media.mytalk.com.au/2ue/audio/261110pilot.mp3

Mstr Caution

26th Nov 2010, 10:24

Muff.

The only thing execs will remember.............

Is January till December.

Jabawocky

26th Nov 2010, 10:52

So a challenge to all you folk out there who have not donated and are not pilots or LAME's.........at some point your backside is in an RPT aircraft and its time to put your money where your mouth is. I have just tossed a good donation at both the funds tonight because its worth it.

As to the QF group who have had my loyal and company loyal support for some time.....Its Over. despite some of my close friends being C&T's at JQ and other retired folks at QF, and other good mates at QFlink currently, there is no more loyalty including the several hundred thousand FF points I have having burned most this year.

My company travel is now going to be directed elsewhere where practical rather than the other way around. If Mr Borg gets a few thousand business folk like me thinking this way he will be on a winner.

Enough is enough.

J:ok:

Angle of Attack

26th Nov 2010, 11:17

Normasars

Oh dear how little you know sonny, let's just leave it at that, I do not have any vendetta against the so called @ 3800 or whatever, Remember in Nazi Germany the public went by rules and look where it got them. You keep typing while I keep acting, and oh how you have no idea about the behind scenes action over this matter. A deer with no eyes I guess! NOIDEA! Ok now back to the real work!
:D

And of all the info at hand Joe will win in the courts. Time will vindicate him.

Incloud

26th Nov 2010, 11:21

Just wanted to add my FULL support to Joe and what he has stated and been willing to risk for OUR greater good. And from reading a few posts I’m not sure that some people realise that Joe was not just voicing his own opinion as a one man band, but rather acting in his role as a pilot Representative (which his article states at the end) for AIPA. I find it hard to see that under those circumstances he can be charged with a breach of the code of conduct whilst representing the voice of the Jetstar pilot group. If this is the case we can say goodbye to employees (who are an elected representative or the like) standing up and trying to fight for anything come EBA negotiations or any industrial related matter, without fear of losing their jobs. Fear and intimidation by a scared and spineless management must not be allowed to continue. We have the momentum and public figure now to fight for that. Let’s all get behind this!

TIMA9X

26th Nov 2010, 13:55

Video - Jetstar CEO defends pilot's sacking - The Sydney Morning Herald (http://media.smh.com.au/national/national-news/jetstar-ceo-defends-pilots-sacking-2066034.html?from=newsbox)

I shudder to watch......:{

SOPS

26th Nov 2010, 14:44

now I am scared..really really scared...this man has no idea at all....

Thai997

26th Nov 2010, 15:03

Note the weasely body language of the chief pilot standing next to DH (appropriate) at the press conference.

$250 added to the bank account.

woftam

26th Nov 2010, 15:50

Money sent.
:ok:

myshoutcaptain

26th Nov 2010, 17:05

Great to see so many parting with their hard earned. Mine is in. Thanks Joe.

It's my shout anytime JE.

Nuthinondaclock

26th Nov 2010, 19:17

$200 sent last night. Will do so again regularly for as long as this takes.

parabellum

26th Nov 2010, 20:08

I find it hard to see that under those circumstances he can be charged with a breach of the code of conduct whilst representing the voice of the Jetstar pilot group

Unfortunately the president of AIPA, on TV, last night, said quite clearly that although a union rep Joe was, in this case, acting on his own and NOT on behalf of the pilots association.

I suspect there is a little more to Joe's sacking than meets the eye. If the TV report is to be believed Joe rejected the J* offer of arbitration so they have kept it very simple, from the legal point of view. J* have invoked the age old pilot's contractual clause that no employee shall contact the press without prior company approval and no employee shall bring the company into disrepute. From a purely legal point of view it is game, set and match to J*. I would have thought.

Perhaps the arbitration offer can be reinstated, though I doubt he will get his job back, more likely a cash settlement out of court/tribunal.

Manuel Reversion

26th Nov 2010, 20:31

PittsS2A

26th Nov 2010, 21:02

David Hall really needs to get his ears fixed, perhaps this is the reason he cant hear the concerns of the JQ pilots.

Can someone tell me where to send money to Joe, although I'm only a PPL I reckon he has balls of steel, if only there were more of him the industry would be much better off.

I'm also going to write a letter to DH (Yes I do mean it) to let him know how disgusted I am with the contempt he is showing to both the travelling public and the people who are at the helm of the airliners they have to travel on.

To all the JQ pilots reading this thread it's about time some more of you stepped up to the plate and spoke out in support of Joe and the cause you should all be fighting as one.

To any JQ management reading this, let's not bull**** each other, your number one concern is company profit to satisfy the shareholder, it's only because of pilots like Joe Eakins and his collegues keeping it safe up there that you have not been exposed for the fraud you are, keep digging away at it though and exposure is imminent.

KRUSTY 34

26th Nov 2010, 21:04

Excuse me, but why is the CEO of Jetstar NZ doing the talking? Where's Buchanan? Hiding under a rock somewhere?

As for Cheif Pilots! A good dose of Weasle DNA seems to be a prerequesite. I've only ever seen one stand up for his principals and those of his pilots. Jerry McGowan had him summarily dismissed more than 10 years ago. He has since moved on to better things, Bravo Quentin. :ok:

Joe, you have the heart of a Lion. Hang in there mate. Money sent, hope it helps.

footloose

26th Nov 2010, 22:18

Money sent. Urging all my fellow Virgin pilots to support this. Consider it an investment.

breakfastburrito

26th Nov 2010, 22:27

Money sent, money well spent. Keep up the good fight Joe.

ratpoison

26th Nov 2010, 23:35

That chief pilot has a long history with regard to NOT standing up for the good of pilots,just one of many nails in the coffin from him.I hope when he retires he can reflect on all the carnage he has caused in the industry.
Well as one widow recently stated to me:
" Ol XXXX would be turning over in his grave if he had any idea of what filth he had sitting beside him when these bas*ards were first officers. But then, those were the days when Chief Pilot's had character and enormous pride in their profession and the pilot's they managed".

Just about sums it all up. The day a so called Chief Pilot sits beside a CEO in a press conference condoning such sacking of a young pilot with 30 odd years of career ahead of him, is a sad and tragic day for the aviation industry.
Shame Shame Shame. Where is Darren Hinch when you need him!

LondonSloop

26th Nov 2010, 23:58

The Street is quoting your Sydney Hearld.

Pilot's lies led to sacking. Jetstar says one of its pilots spread so many lies about the company that it had no choice but to fire him.

struggling

27th Nov 2010, 00:24

If you are really trying to be helpful Sloppy, please let your city slicker mates know that other reputable Australian sources are quoting Jetstar’s CEO with

“The essential role for line pilots was not to just fly an airliner, but be able to save it, when things went wrong.”This goes I believe, to the heart of what Eakins has raised.

KABOY

27th Nov 2010, 00:29

At the end of the day we are bound by our Ops manuals which clearly spell's out what we must 'say' or 'not say' to the press.

If there is an industrial issue that we need to raise with the company we use our union as our mouthpiece, as well as our spokesperson to the press.

Our conditions of employment are clear, why do we need to make this person a martyr for his actions? Why can't we use our union to fight these issues, he was a representative why did he speak out as an individual. Why is AIPA with it's large war chest calling for donations?

I will support any individual against an unfair dismissal by their organisation, but was his dismissal UNFAIR?

Capt Kremin

27th Nov 2010, 02:41

For supplying Joe's defence...

From Qrewroom:

"Those statements [from Eakins] we were most concerned about were those that related to the reputation of Jetstar, our pan-Asian strategy, our employment arrangements and other directives around the organisation to ensure the sustained success of Jetstar," Mr Hall said.

"Salaries between Australia and Singapore are comparable. There is no cut to Australian terms and conditions," Mr Hall said.

DAVID HALL, Jetstar Aust & NZ CEO
SMH 26th Nov 2010

If the wages are essentially the same then why did Mr Halls boss say the following, as reported in the same paper 2 months ago:

QANTAS'S chief executive, Alan Joyce, has said its Asian offshoot, Jetstar Asia, needs to pay "Asian rates" to be competitive against low-cost rivals and has accused unions of living in "cloud-cuckoo land".

Mr Joyce told a business lunch in Sydney yesterday that "it was just crazy" to think that it could operate its Singapore-based offshoot, Jetstar Asia, with pilots on Australian conditions because to do so would make it uncompetitive against other low-cost airlines such as Tiger and AirAsia.

ALAN JOYCE, QANTAS CEO
SMH 30th Sept 2010

Thanks Alan, now reinstate this man before this hits the news

A. Le Rhone

27th Nov 2010, 03:17

Yes Kremin very good point.

Either Joyce tells the truth...he wants to undercut Australian salaries with lower Asian salaries or..

Hall tells the truth: "Salaries between Australia and Singapore are comparable"

What is the truth and why are 2 people from the same organisation apparently contradicting each other?

kellykelpie

27th Nov 2010, 03:42

I think Hall said the "take home" salaries are comparable. The big difference is the tax rates between the two countries. Singapore has a competitive advantage because it is not a Pay All You Earn tax system...

DutchRoll

27th Nov 2010, 03:53

I think Hall said the "take home" salaries are comparable.Hall's actual quote was:
There is no cut to Australian terms and conditions...which is complete and total BS whichever way you look at it.

Not to mention, if there was no cut (and therefore no savings) in Australian terms and conditions, why would you bother employing Asian-based pilots?? Hall made it completely clear - the Ts & Cs are the same - according to him.

Mr Hall is full of it, and no doubt he is fully aware of that and hoping the media do not notice.

Jabiman

27th Nov 2010, 04:08

Singapore has a competitive advantage because it is not a Pay All You Earn tax system...
But why should the Australian taxpayer subsidise J* getting a competitive advantage through some tax dodge which sends tax revenue to a foreign government?

TIMA9X

27th Nov 2010, 04:08

Thanks Alan, now reinstate this man before this hits the news

Exactly, well said Krem, I think the best thing so far was said by your good self...

J* managers have shot themselves in the foot on this one.... no matter what it says in the contract, its stupid for these mangers to go public and defend what really should be sorted out privately, with a strong reprimand, putting other techies on notice. Like all media stories, people forget unless it is brought to their attention again.

As I see it, legally J* may have a point, but morally J* managers sending a "termination email" and allegedly advising the world of their actions with a "bulk email" (Joe heard the news from a friend) comes over to the general public as below the belt, and only keeps the story alive and well. J* managers appear to have no idea about how the media works...:ouch: They have kicked an own goal.

Mstr Caution

27th Nov 2010, 05:33

An organisation will continue to repeat it's own mistakes & provoke further discontent within, unless it listens to it's employees.

In this case, the masses did speak in August. A unanimous vote of no confidence in the CEO. Followed by "a September to remember" as termed by those who work within.

This would have (and should have) been a massive wake up call to any reasonable organisation.

So why would an organisation further agitate the situation by the termination of one of the key players from the August meeting?

The organisations plans must be so critical to it's success, that they are willing to consciously provoke further disengagement & reaction amongst the majority of it's present employees.

If I was one of the company individuals managing the situation, I would have considered a substitution type test. That being, would any of my other employees feel the same way as that demonstrated in the published article?

The answer would have been an overwhelming yes. In fact (possibly) the majority of the pilot workforce, as evidenced by the meeting some 3 months earlier.

This has got to be saying something about how the organisation chooses to manage their employees.

The company was in a tough predicament either not commenting or reacting to the publishing of the article & have the momentum of the August meeting gather pace & media attention. Or terminate JE's employment (which they did) & have the employees further support his cause & also gain further media attention in the process.

Either way, it's got the company "heavies" such as DH & MR out in the media defending their actions. As opposed to the normal commentary from SW.

As mentioned by another writer, the company was in a catch 22. I believe the preferred action should have been listening to JE privately & determine if the SYSTEMS or POLICIES within needed fixing.

Who is causing the greater degree of damage to the organisation, an individual or management?