Industrial Action at Flybe?

[largegeorgejones]

I heard a rumour that things are hotting up and there have been some confrontations between BALPA and Flybe. BALPA have apparently started canvassing opinions amongst pilots.

Anyone care to comment?

[superced]

BALPA :oh::oh:

[Serenity]

BALPA has sent out an update on negotiations along with a questionaire!

"failiure to agree" has been registerd with Flybe management over both pay and new rostering agreement, much dissatisfaction with new pensions policey also!!

Pay - pay freeze last year, BALPA requested 5-6%, Flybe offered 2% pay rise to include annual increment so now only a 0.3% rise or a combined prop/jet salary with the top 4 years nocked off!!

Rostering - to stop the late finish and early start problem that is grinding people down, BALPA scheduling experts spent months recently running new rosters to abolish this problem. At the last dry run management stepped in and just said no!

Pensions - new smart pensions to make savings and tax savings for both Flybe and employee. However Flybe wish to keep the savings made by both company and employee end!!

These are the facts as i see them, stand to be corrected!!
BALPA have asked members opinions and do they have member support for more measures!!

There was a post on "Flybe t&c" thread here that said "if Flybe gave its pilots 2 more days off a month,doubled duty pay and a 10 grand pay rise they would then be at the bottom of the average for the industry"!!

Yes - greatful to be employed, but Flybe is no longer a regional from the channel islands, it is a major european carrier and the employees seem to have recognised this faster than management who just drag their heels!
subsequently most people (pilots and cabin crew) i speak to are looking and appyling else where.

[Aussie]

Id say most are talking about looking for work elsewhere, but thats as far as it goes. As much as people whinge about crappy T&Cs, not many actually vote with their FEET!

[bigjarv]

On the contrary, people will vote with their feet and bugger off, problem is they just won't stand together!

[Otto Throttle]

Serenity,

Just to correct you on the SMART pensions. Flybe have offered to share the company savings (employees keep theirs anyway), but just not a big enough slice to be given to the pilots for BALPA's liking. It took a bit of persuasion by all accounts, but that is the current state of affairs.

As far as the combined prop/jet payscales, only an issue for captains (as is usual with BALPA's negotiations) as there are very, very few 9yr FOs knocking around the company and if the doom merchants are correct, that is unlikley to change. In fact, they would also have you believe it shouldn't be an issue for skippers either as everybody is leaving apparently. :rolleyes:

[FL370 Officeboy]

Flybe have offered to share the company savings (employees keep theirs anyway), but just not a big enough slice to be given to the pilots for BALPA's liking. It took a bit of persuasion by all accounts, but that is the current state of affairs.

Indeed. Flybe want to share 50% of the employer savings out equally amongst ALL employees. BALPA's point is that as the pilots generate a huge slice of the employer savings figure due to our higher pension membership and higher salary contributions. Hence, we should see a higher % share of the savings that reflects this. Pretty fair I think.

[Firestorm]

Pilots generally will complain about Ts & Cs, and in the case of Fly BE the complaints would seem justified. You may well be warming up your escape plans, but It appears to me that there aren't many places to go, and that most of the places to go are probably in the Middle East at the nearest, and the number of people who are willing and able to make that move will be limited so maybe it is time for pilots to show a bit of solidarity and community spirit (The BIg Society idea perhaps) and provide a bit of resistance to the company policy. You pay a fee to BAPLA to be a member so why not get a bit of value from it instead of reading the Log, and then moving off somewhere else.

Just to put this into context I have been out of work for about 18 months having been made redundant from a low cost airline and really hope to get back into an aeroplane soon (as a pilot). Fly BE is looking like one of the very few that might be able to offer me a job, and I would like it to be a decent offer seeing as I will probably be bonded for 3 years or so before I can make another move if necessary.

Even if you are hoping to move off to another airline or another country you owe to yourselves to make an effort to improve Fly BE's Ts & Cs: your escape plan may not come to fruition as soon as you expect so why not make the place you're at a bit better for your self before you move on and improve your career?

I maintain that airlines like Fly BE have two types of pilots: those with escape plans, and liars! Good luck to all of you in your efforts to get a better place to work be it improving Fly BE or moving elsewhere.

[JB007]

Pilots striking will not be supported by the UK travelling public, and that is a lot of public in FlyBe terms - "Pickets In Porsches" will be headlines - regardless of what you earn at FlyBe, your earning potential is far greater than the average UK worker...

It's a crackin' UK product and service, I hope for those whose lifestyle it suits get this sorted...I laugh at UK companies now who have a mission statement these days that staff are their number 1 asset - what a joke...

[ZBMAN]

Pilots striking will not be supported by the UK travelling public, and that is a lot of public in FlyBe terms - "Pickets In Porsches" will be headlines - regardless of what you earn at FlyBe, your earning potential is far greater than the average UK worker...

Public support is irrelevant in terms of industrial relations. It shouldn't even be a factor when it is time to decide to walk out or not. Of course it would be unpopular, how could it be otherwise?

[Chief Brody]

Left flybe a couple of years ago.

I genuinely mean it when I say my blood pressure is sooooo much better for doing so. I dont earn a humongous amount now, but at least me and the future Mrs CB can afford to eat out a few times a month, take a couple of holidays a year and not worry about the cars MOT bill.

I have many great memories but acromony in the flight deck towards Exeter management was as tangible then as I'm told it is now - albeit we were pissing and moaning about other stuff back in 08.

Exeter have to-date hedged their bets (and lets face it have been proved correct thus far) on the pilot workforces inability to mobilise and respond with a collective voice.

Answer the question: Who is to blame for the above (underlined)

CB

[FL370 Officeboy]

You're presuming everyone wants to fly longhaul and live abroad. Sorry, but your lifestyle doesn't appeal to me I'm afraid.

I'll be the first in the queue to back BALPA should it come to it, but I'm afraid the actual job isn't what's p*ssing off people. It's actually quite good fun :ok:

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Serenity
The easiest way to stop the early / late issue is to get a variation that allows more than 3 earlies on the bounce (with subsequent days off afterwards). Why dont Flybe look at that? :\

[Desk-pilot]

I agree with much of the above and feel now is the time for BALPA members to show some backbone to support BALPA negotiations. If that fails then as we all know there are other options to force management to the negotiating table. I would suggest that the prospect of a strike in Flybe at a time when they are seeking to list the company is the last thing management want and that will provide additional leverage to aid BALPA's cause.

The most important thing right now is to stand firm and finally make this airline a place people might actually want to stay. There are few alternatives to run to at present, although I suspect that may change in the next 2 years...

Desk-pilot

[DrumMachine]

but I'm afraid the actual job isn't what's p*ssing off people. It's actually quite good fun:D

There are many of us at FlyBE who love the flying and living out in the regions, and hope to continue until retirement. I spent the first 20yrs of my career spending long hours airborne, and have had the unfortunate pleasure of sand between my toes - I have no desire for either again. All I ask for is the same pay deal the rest of the company got, a long-term aspirational payscale, and a better realised scheduling agreement. I sincerely hope that BALPA and management can reach a compromise quickly as both are currently making unreasonable demands and I detect a hardening of attitudes that wont help either side in the long run.

[Snoop]

Sort out the roster first! It is the main reason I left, the money was the second.

If the roster got sorted out, I would go back. I loved the flying and the people.

[impartial]

Good lifestyle or Good money, either is an enticement for staff retention, but if neither improve then it is a recipe for exodus at first opportunity for most.
:=

[speedrestriction]

From a point two months ago where the company announced to the CC that the late finish-early start is an integral part of the business model we are now told it is something they are committed to making movement on with the union.

Is this the same sort of commitment they made four years ago but failed to deliver on?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Chesty Morgan]

That 0.3% aside the newsletter was the most obvious example of divide and conquer that this company has ever produced.

They also imply that the Dash pilots chance of getting on the jet are slim to none. However, you can have a common payscale which will benefit only the Dash fleet.

Did you Dash guys find that motivational?!

[Capot]

"exodus at first opportunity for most."

Not exactly a rush for the door, then?

[speedrestriction]

a newsletter published to do some some good

At this stage of the game, with an important ballot about to take place, the company are trying to minimise the strength of the mandate which hopefully the workforce are about to give BALPA. I expect colleagues are able to recognise wishy-washy, double-speak promises for what they are. Weak mandate for BALPA = Management win and we all enjoy another five years of lates finish, early start and below industry standard conditions.

On the other hand if BALPA get a strong mandate then management have to negotiate in a genuine and productive fashion, settlement is reached, goodwill returns, Ts and Cs improve and company wins in the long term.

[FL370 Officeboy]

Also when the chief pilots newsletter still talks about a 2% payrise in line with the rest of business. I'm not sure to take it as an insult to my intelligence or hang my head in shame that our own chief pilot does not acknowledge we had not been offered a 2% rise but more like 0.3%.

I think he's clinging on to the hope that if he says it enough times we might actually believe him. 'Fraid we've long gone past that!

From a point two months ago where the company announced to the CC that the late finish-early start is an integral part of the business model we are now told it is something they are committed to making movement on with the union.

Again, he's trotted out this line so many times that everyone knows it's total spin. A bit like the boy who cried wolf one could say.

BALPA must be laughing their socks off at that latest newsletter. If they needed anything to back up that the management are taking us all for fools then that was it. He must know that we know that he knows that we know it's actually 0.3% so why just wind me up by trying to insult my intelligence? As for the lates to earlies, been told this so many times I stopped listening years ago :ugh:

[Calmcavok]

Quite. It's time for the management to act upon their sentiments. Time for all of us to support BALPA in their quest to negotiate reasonable pay & scheduling. Hopefully a reasonable compromise can be reached quickly and painlessly, though if the management intend remaining as disingenuous as they have been, then who knows.....?

[Chesty Morgan]

and the sooner we realise this as a group the better

It's happening CC, later rather than sooner but it is.

I can't be the only one to notice a subtle but quite significant shift in peoples' attitudes?!

[six-sixty]

To be fair to our chief pilot, who I believe to be a decent person, I guess his hands are somewhat tied by budgets and the political sensitivities us Flybe pilots know about. He must know that we know that what he says in the newsletter are utterly vacuous cliches at best and downright disingenuous misrepresentations at worst, but his job is to represent the management position...

However, if he was on our side and wanted to subvert the situation subtly by seemingly pleasing his masters, but actually insulting the intelligence of anyone left who's still unsure and thus galvanising support for Balpa, then his last newsletter would do it I reckon!

[Otto Throttle]

It's a shame that BALPA can't (or more likley won't) galvanise support for BALPA. If the union could bother itself to pro-actively seek to increase membership, then maybe they might achieve something beyond bellyaching from the sidelines.

Still, you lot voted for them, so reap what you sow.

[bigjarv]

That's very helpful. Thanks for your comment.

[ZeBedie]

If you convince the directors that you are angry and that 80% of you will actually carry out the threat to strike, you'll win and there will be no strike. I speak from experience.

[Palangi]

So!
What to do?

[Rob82]

I for one am about to dig my BALPA lanyard out and put it to some use and i would urge everyone else to do the same. Might only be a small thing but at least it shows our support.

Do the management really think we are accepting all the dribble that is written in the newsletters? It just proves to me how little they value us, in fact each newsletter that comes out makes me even more angry at the way they treat and disrespect both us and BALPA.

They are not commited to resolving any issues if its going to cost 1 pence more than it does at the moment. All they want to do is show how much money they can make so they get top money when they float the company.

Now is the time to stick together and get what we really deserve!!!

[Desk-pilot]

My Balpa lanyard never came off and interestingly there's a real change in sentiment afoot on the flight deck. I think people have finally realised that the company has been playing games with us for years and it's time to stop the ludicrous erosion of both quality of life and terms and conditions. BALPA is the only opposing force that can improve things.

Desk-pilot

[Chesty Morgan]

BALPA is the only opposing force that can improve things.

Or a Spanish work to rule!

:E

[bigjarv]

Where do I get a lanyard?!?!

[largegeorgejones]

I have just added this rant to the Virgin thread! It is not quite so topical as in, relevant to current "conversation" but none the less think it is worthy of inclusion on this thread...

I'm really sick of people saying "there is a q of pilots as long as your arm ready to work" and "pilots are completely replaceable"! That is just not true. It takes much time, effort and money to become a pilot. So there may (at the moment) be people with CPLs, ATPLs or even ATPLs with loads of hours hanging about waiting for a job but.... a notice period is in the region of 3 months, a type rating is 15 to 25 THOUSAND pounds plus, training takes 2 months plus and costs a company MONEY (uniform, hours, company spiel, admin etc). You are not just an office worker who can move stuff out of a desk and someone else can move in. A company that has a disruptive workforce will cost it dearly. Something most cannot afford at the moment. Someone stated on the Virgin thread stuff about about booking a holiday with Virgin cause the perceived service is better ect. but the important point expressed is that they wanted to "avoid the strikes" so booked with Virgin (rather than BA). This shows what massive damage can be done to brands. Do not undervalue the professionalism, the skill and its uniqueness of this career. That statement goes to company management but more importantly to pilots. I have taken much interest in this thread and the hardships of pilots at Flybe but please can everyone stop saying there is an immediate crowd of pilots ready to jump in at the drop of a hat. Cabin crew can be replaced with relative ease to keep a schedule going but pilots cannot.... FACT!

[G SXTY]

Where do I get a lanyard?!?!

Phone the nice people at BALPA and they'll pop one in the post for you.

[Coffin Corner]

largegerorgejones

That may be the case for airlines such as Virgin etc, but Flybe is a different beast. We generally recruit ab-initio pilots and pilots with the basic fATPL. These pilots do not need to give 3 months notice etc and can replace experienced pilots who have moved on almost "on a whim".
Whilst they have to go through the rigmarole of inductions, paperwork and type ratings etc most will be able to "start" as and when the company requires. You can bet that if the company said "Can you start next week?" most would say yes, and with more hold pools than any airline have ever seen in their lives there is no shortage of low time pilots waiting to start.

1 week induction
2 weeks TR groundschool
2 weeks simulator
1 week faffing about with days off, getting TR issued and base training etc.
As soon as they are line training they are on revenue flights, end of story.

CC

G-SXTY

Only if he/she is a member of BALPA? :ok:

[oapilot]

CC

Your analysis of organising training courses for ab initios in a company like Flybe is correct.

However, the question is how much slack is there in the line training system, and what happens when the CAA starts taking a long hard look at experience levels, especially if it's Captains and Senior FOs that lead the exodus and you forced back to rostering ab initios with low hour skippers.

It's happened before and it's not pretty.

Jimbo and the team are not known for their sympathy towards crew, and will be relying on the fact the mass exodus can't happen at the moment to keep the boot firmly on necks.

You have two choices really, get behind BALPA or let management get behind you with the sand impregnated lube....

[Palangi]

Of course - a lanyard !
That'll really hit 'em where it hurts !

[bigjarv]

My plan was to get one and continuously flick the management in the eye with it till they improve the terms and conditions! What could be more annoying than having a BALPA lanyard continuously flicked in your eye?! You would surely give in to any requests given enough flicking! No? No one with me.... a sentiment of support rather than a fighting move! Stupido!!

[SpeedyProp]

As I understand it, just about all the hold pool pilots are lined up for courses which will barely begin to address the current crew shortages. If more are needed, will enough be available who are in current flying practice? If not that spells a much greater training risk. Also in the slightly longer term, there may be a much reduced supply of ab-initio pilots, as flying training loans will be much more difficult to come by with the squeeze on credit.

The last news letter certainly appeared to harden attitudes against the management, and with several weeks of the consultation left, I hope it will have strengthened the support for BALPA.

As for the pension changes, as well as the previous comments, the proposed sharing was only going to be introduced next FY, with ALL savings this year being kept by the company!

[SEAMASTER]

I would wear the tie pin as well, now that would really scare them sh****ss, that would make Mr French change the way he has run the company for the last 15 years !!!:ugh:

[FANS]

Do not under estimate the strength of your hand at present. Any official talks around strike action will kill the flotation, and therefore your directors £tens of millions are on hold once again.

Then again, there are many longer serving pilots for whom the flotation will be a nice windfall; so already you're divided!

Presumably your reps have seen the business' forecasts that will make up the prospectus and let you know the current proposed pay increases for the next 5 years, which will have also been reviewed by external accountants.

Equally, whilst G-60 and co do a great job of underselling themselves, the flybe flight deck is generally made up of hard-working, clever and sensible guys and not just any fatpl holder - so the real supply isn't that great. In fact, to get what they do for £30k+ a year for people that have invested £50k is bloody great value, even in aviation.

[Firestorm]

Do you think you would get the tie pin through security?

[FRying]

30K a year ??? Where did you get this (stunning) figure from ???? You're talking wages during online training, right ?

[Desk-pilot]

FYI Most fully qualified Flybe F/O's earn £25k-£32k - about as much as a HGV or bus driver and considerably less than a train driver (£45-£50k starting salary) - oh and less than most of the refuellers who fuel the planes we fly.

If the public knew this, maybe they'd agree we're underpaid considering the level of training and skill required to do the job, not to mention the responsibility and unsocial hours and weekend working required.

Perhaps now people can see why most of us are extrmely annoyed with the 0.3% pay rise over the past 2 years we have been offered...

A 5yr F/O with Flybe would be making around £35k - the pay scales are on the Flybe website for all to see.

Desk-pilot

[FRying]

Well, hammer them with one of those good old strikes, then ! What is it ? Such or such pilot has been promised candies and will not be able to follow up on this one (Oooh, you'll understand, surely...).

I'm getting sick of this population chickening out and finding all reasons not to hit hard. Less pay than bus and tube drivers ? Well, less guts as well (The tube is out tomorrow...). We get what we deserve.

Do you realise where this kind of weakness would have taken us in 1939 ? We'd all be speaking German by now.:rolleyes:

[Serenity]

So the Finnair contract has been cancelled/postponed/renegotiated (time will tell), what are the odds management uses this as an excuse not to be able to afford a proper pay rise or improvement of conditions???

you can hear it now " you`re lucky to have jobs, can`t afford anything in order to avaoid redundancies" etc etc!!! again!!!

[merlinxx]

If you're going to do it, damn well do it ! All this 'bovine scatology' is worthless unless you follow words with actions.:ugh: If you lot can't come up with a constructive, majority and united action plan, then forget it.

If BALAPA won't put forward an action plan, and your PLC is management pilot heavy, a vote of no confidence in your PLC should take place:D

[Burpbot]

Serenity, What's to stop BALPA arguing Finnair decided to buy Finncom instead, due to worries over the many rumours of industrial action? It looks to me its in the interests of the company to make its employees happy at this moment in its evolution. You never know!

[Serenity]

You never know!!!
Balpa may surprise us and do that, but I don't see management changing their ideas and philosophies to give us all a nice pay rise!!
Think they are more likely to say there is no money, delay and find excuses.
I would love to be pleasantly surprised.........

[152wiseguy]

Could be Burpbot but I think Flybe and finncomm are being played off against each other by finnair who are trying to get the cost of connecting regional flights down to a minimum.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

coffin corner

I think you over estimate the numbers in the hold pool waiting to start. There is only one pool. Numbers are not large. regs BBB

[Coffin Corner]

There is only one pool. Numbers are not large. regs BBB.

Firstly, when have I ever stated the numbers in the pool?
Secondly, I can assure you there is more than ONE hold pool.

There is the main pool for Mr wannabe "off the street" (with about 15-20 in it)
There is the pool of MPL students
There is the pool of Thomas Cook cadets (coming soon)
There is the pool of Mentored/Part sponsored Cadets from FTE etc.
There is another pool that I really can't be arsed to try and remember about, but it's something to do with sponsored cadets.

The bottom lot on this list are being given preference over the main pool of wannabes - fact. If you are in the main pool then there could be a long wait for a job.

Should the market pick up and all the pools empty then all Flybe has to do is get on the phone and call any number of the 1,000,000 applications they have on file and they'll get starters almost straight away - another fact.

CC

p.s If you want to be a pedant and argue the toss that the "cadets" waiting are not in a "pool" then that is up to you, in the cold light of day, they are awaiting jobs :)

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

The TCX students go where the gaps are post the main moves as a result of the revelent bid process. There is no hold for them per say, plus they have not yet started in FTE so still to early to predict attrition rates/ expansion etc etc. They will graduate early 2012 ex FTE.

The MPL/PSP/MAPS students from the FTO's are in one pool. The first MPL course is doing its TR with the second to start the TR soon. Both are doing a combined TR groundschool. With courses having been offered to several cadets from this pool the numbers left would be managed in a few TR intakes.

Due to the change over in online application vetting company, the list of contacts were deleted as per data protection guidelines. I am more than aware there is a pile of CV's, however applicants will have to apply online.

The reason I post this is that those who are CPL/IR holders waiting for their 'big break' who read this, if things 'kick-off' in terms of recruitment, it will not be long before the doors re-open. Again Crystal ball at ready, and company mobile change over day sees lack of network signal for said ball at present.

[Serenity]

So all gone very quiet, i know there is the odd meeting but little else seems to be happening!

The management seem very good at delaying, however how long until then exodus??? More and more companies seem to be recruiting, BA, Virgin, Jet2, GSS, Cityflyer and thats without the European & middle/far east.
There are now fewer regional companies to feed the growing demand, so i guess a good percentage will come from Flybe.
Some already handed in their notice, there must be plenty in the wings??

Are the management hoping to delay until the exodus or just hoping all the senior guys leave and can be replaced with cheaper cadets??

Buy outs of other companies are rumoured, but will probably mean little for crews in the UK. Are these now the managements focus, the UK crews left to fend for themselves???

[Coffin Corner]

Are the management hoping to delay until the exodus or just hoping all the senior guys leave and can be replaced with cheaper cadets??

This is exactly what they want Serenity

[757_Driver]

Are the management hoping to delay until the exodus or just hoping all the senior guys leave and can be replaced with cheaper cadets??
Unfortunately this seems to be the way of thinking of alot of short-termist financial / MBA types, in almost all airlines. It will all come to a horrible end, but probably not for a good few years yet. In the mean time a race to the bottom for T's and C's is well underway.

If only we could sack all the directors that make these sort of decisions and replace them with new graduates on a pay-to-work internship. :E

[Hoodedclaw]

So with a much rumoured flotation on the LSE on the cards have these issues been resolved? Can't imagine potential investors being overjoyed at the prospect of a militant workforce. :hmm:

[Calmcavok]

This could be BALPA's opportunity to utilise the press to best advantage.

With management now citing the Data Protection Act in order to subvert the Scheduling Agreement, it's not getting any happier at Flybe.

[Coffin Corner]

One could say morale is at an all time low and can't really get any worse.

We are treated like a bunch of bloody school children. :ugh:

[Big_Picture]

It is true to say moral is low and that the goodwill of the workforce that the company has relied on for so long is becoming increasingly depleted. Yesterdays modifications in Aims are a joke and show the contempt in which the company regards us. Talk about turning me cynical.

Anyone else heard the rumours that some ops managers / directors got a 9% increase in pay. My source said it had been confirmed to the Balpa CC but usually hear these things from a couple of places when true.

[Burpbot]

Coffin Corner!

You have it so wrong!!! WE DO NOT GET TREATED LIKE SCHOOL CHILDREN!!

Schools treat pupils with more respect!

[assymetricdrift]

Big Picture:

9% payrise? If you go through the financial results, you'll see that a certain directors pay went up from under £500k to circa £600k. If that is 9%, then I will openly eat the Egg Florentine Sandwich next time one appears in the crew food box.

Me thinks that someone may not be telling the full truth if that was the figure unvieled to the CC...

And equally - I agree - maybe somebody should make a phonecall to one of the national newspapers? A dissenting workforce will not make for a happy floatation...

[Big_Picture]

AD,

I did see the decoded financial results which show the 100K rise for a certain individual and the interest free loans for directors to buy pre-floatation stock. The 9% I understand is for another group of employees, showing the 3% "take it or leave it" is for some and not others. I may be overstepping the mark to say if it for ops then it can't be performance related considering some of the things they have done to me lately.

I think you should eat that egg sandwich anyway as the way things are going dysentery seems like the preferred option.

[assymetricdrift]

I totally agree - I wasn't aware of the Flight Ops managers though, but it does add fuel to the fire for us.

It's a ridiculous situation to be in...

[Serenity]

Email from BALPA today states that consultations to be made over the next few days, then emails and letters to be sent out with information to be read and then apparently there will be difficult dicissions to be made!

My personnel guess would be here's where we stand with the company, accept he crap deal or go whole heartedly for industrial action!!
I may be wrong, but that's how I read it!!

Bring it on!!

[six-sixty]

Agreed. It's all words words talk talk fruitless meeting after fruitless meeting, always on the company's terms and delay always to their advantage.

Sick to the back teeth of being told there's a meeting next week or whenever. I want action.

[big d1]

Six-sixty

I think a lot of crew will agree with that statement :D

[SpeedyProp]

I certainly think that BALPA asking all to make sure that their contact details are correct, means they expect things to get a lot more serious in the near future.

[VIRGA]

All this industrial action step happened not so long ago (5 years?) and we went to the vote, so flybe wont be too scared, having been there before, and the result was to not strike. 51% TO 49% the rumour had it.

Should have been a revote. Sadly this was also a reflection of the poor membership that flybe pilots have with their union. Perhaps if you truely want better conditions you should join. I would think that judging by the comments made on here then all the above have thus Im preaching to the converted but maybe pass on this to every FO CAPT that you fly with. In particular the FOs as this position is massively under represented within the union for flybe.
Why? Probably because their pay is so poor they cant afford it. Ironic huh.

At the very least know this, if we strike and you are not in the union then you have no protection and will have to go to work :}

There are also a few pilots that I have spoken to recently that feel with the impending float perhaps this is not the time to strike. Some feel that they want the float to happen now so there may be a NEW direction in management and the payrise will come in the future and subsequently if we strike then the float will be delayed yet again. This for me is a very worrying point of view, although valid and perhaps correct in that it will delay the strike, I feel that it is a little nieve to think that a new owner will WANT to pay us the industry standard where flybe currently have got away with doing that for so so so very very long. This fact in itself will encourage them to buy us especially if they stipulate that the current managemnet i.e Jim would be required to stay in his capacity for an extended period. Also the monies coming from the float will be from a silent owner, much like us as we own 16% of the airline ourselves but are not listened to, and thus this money will be utilised for the expansion as we know.

Of course the rumours are that Jim wants to float, cash in and get on the next horse and cart (Maserati) into the sunset but thats to be seen.

What gets me is that even 5% or 6% is seriously falling short of what we should be aiming for. I want the industry standard for the airline we are becoming and have become. At least 10% for the first year and further talks for the next 5 years so that the pay increases we have toward the industry standard dont break the bank. What Im trying to say is that I would hope that we dont get sold out for the 5% and flybe stipulate, like they always have done, that there will be no negotiations for a further 2 or more years, during which time they know our pay will yet again fall behind.

[big d1]

I think one of the problems especially for FO's not either been part of or leaving BALPA is the fact that the likes of the pay deal and other issues, negotiations have been going on for a long long time with no results. Yes this has a lot to do with the company constantly playing silly games, but I think some people also feel that BALPA are not been forceful enough and keep letting the company get away with it, and as has been mentioned before the constant, "we will be at another meeting next week". Add this to FO's not exactly rolling in the cash they may see paying BALPA each month a waste of money at Flybe and would rather have the extra £ in the bank account.

[VIRGA]

Perhaps join now to show your support, then if the pay goes up then maybe they will be quids in, if not then perhaps resign to show your disgust that they didnt push it home hard enough? Its only the price of a few night out for a months membership so for just a couple of months???

[big d1]

They already have my support. I was just giving a reason why I think they don't have as much support as a % of total crew, especially FO's, when compared to some other airlines. Remember a lot of FO's have very large flying loans to pay off each month, add in rent, phone, internet and other bills, and when on Year 0 pay as a Q400 FO, there really isn't that much money left. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my original post. Hopefully more will join.

[Desk-pilot]

Truth is that as a First Officer in his/her first year of BALPA membership you benefit from a discounted membership rate. I recall paying about £12 a month, in the second year you pay about £25 a month. the Flybe salaries are so low that the BALPA subsciption being based on a % of salary makes it cheap to join.

Now if any FO says they can't afford £12 a month I'm afraid I don't believe them. This is a point of principle. All of us moan and complain about being shafted and suffering exploitative terms and conditions - especially wrt rostering. Either join BALPA and supporth them now to get the situation changed or forever accept what Jim and the Executive dish out.

In my mind the situation is quite clear, a strong vote for industrial action will for sure either:

1. Bring management to the table for serious negotiation or
2. Lead to a strike which will eventually lead to serious improvements in pay and conditions.

I'd guarantee either way you'll benefit to the tune of more than £12 a month.

The thing to remember is that the management and owners are greedy. They want to float, get millions in bonuses and run away. Jim alone has 9% of the company and if it floats at £250 million ish which is what the Sunday Times indicates it's worth, he stands to net over £20 million. Quite honestly that is a huge incentive to cut and run and not give a stuff about the employees.

Conversely BALPA is in the best possible position to leverage gains because the one thing that will seriously worry investors and the city is a disgruntled and striking workforce and all the negative press and loss of bookings this will cause. For once the ball might actually be on our foot.

Finally, like everyone I meet on the line I don't particularly want all this aggro. I just want to do my job, feel respected and decently remunerated and be fairly treated. It's a great disappointment to me that management have so far refused to negotiate seriously with BALPA. In light of this I feel there is no alternative but to support BALPA.

Desk-pilot

[VIRGA]

All so very true. Well said Desk pilot.

However we must remember that it will still be down to a vote from us. We all blame BALPA, and yes they have been weak but as I said in my previous post this all happened only a short time ago and has happened before that time as well.

Its not the first time the 'crews' thought they had the company against the wall and that a massive payrise to industry standard was on the cards or a strike, but for some unknown reason the vote that the crew took went to not strike.

What will happen is we will all get a letter from management grovelling on about how negative it will be and how detrimental it will be to the company and how this will also have a massive negetive effect on our future lives within the company if we strike. They will also suggest that it is they that have been so welcoming to BALPA and it is BALPA that have been obstructive to the meetings. Many many things will be suggestive towards no industrial action and even perhaps mis-directing our less senior pilots toward a nervous vote.

Sadly there are those out there that will not join as they believe they will get the benefit of both worlds. They look like they are not supporting the strike in the eyes of the company because they are not in the union and therefore will be available to work but then if the strike wins and a payrise is forth coming then they benefit too. Sadly, or fortunately, these pilots are the same ones who will leave anyway.

As for JF getting 20 million. Well if anyone deserves any money it is him and us. Not the middle level that have been rewarded.

Its time that the working 16% of the shareholders stood up for our share of the profits.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

All very well said. But! I hope this time the Dash guys will look at the whole offer (if there ever is one) and not just their little bit of it. They have the majority vote at Flybe and it is so very easy to divide and conquer when this is the case. Remember last time? How many of those Dash guys who voted yes for their decent pay rise are now on the jet with their not so decent pay rise.

Think about the future and BLOODY WELL STICK TOGETHER, EVERYBODY!

[Otto Throttle]

Virga,

Just to correct a misconception you have regarding the ownership of the company - the 16% you attribute to the 'working' shareholders is the total percentage owned by the employees plus JF.

The employee only share is 8.25%, some 178,000 nominal shares. Not quite the power you think you have.

[Waveman]

Smart pensions - BALPA kept their 'help' on pensions secret from the non-members. This is another occasion where they would have done better to make their feelings known to the non-members (a substantial number) and got a much higher percentage rejecting the opt-in and hence a stronger position. If there's suppose to be a new cc looks like they've fallen into the secretive ways of the previous mob. :(

[Coffin Corner]

If there's suppose to be a new cc looks like they've fallen into the secretive ways of the previous mob. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

You know why? Because the same horses are pulling the carts. Different personnel on board, but the same horses up front.

[biddedout]

CC. What are you on about?

[SmilingKnifed]

Well I figured I'd rather be part of the solution than the problem, so I've reactivated my BALPA membership. I hope others do the same.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Good, that means I don't have to beat on you next time I'm down in the 2nd city

[assymetricdrift]

Now boys... what you get up to in your spare time... ;)

Seriously though, I think it's worth hanging in on the CC - I know they're doing the best that they possibly can do and the management aren't supposed to be that receptive of anything that has been put forward so far (quelle surprise!).

But... that last email that was sent around is quite indicitive that something is in the water. Whatever the outcome of this "something", then I hope that it gets the popular support across the board of us guys.

[six-sixty]

the management aren't supposed to be that receptive of anything that has been put forward so far (quelle surprise!).

Exactly, they were never going to give anything away for free it's not their style. They'll give the absolute minimum they are compelled to, hence the wait to see the size of our collective cahones.

If it goes to ballot and people back down, or union membership is shown to be insufficient to have any clout, then it's game over and Flybe will be secure in the knowledge that their strategy of competetive advantage by the meanest pay and conditions will be set in stone for ever... and more importantly for any forthcoming floatation.

Last chance saloon.

[Burpbot]

Six-Sixty spot on! If you believe the companies figures about how many pilots opted out then you have already lost! Most people I have spoke to have opted out and Balpa has on record the real number!

[Big_Picture]

This is the last chance for the BALPA and the CC. It is now or never. The CC can count on my full support over the coming weeks and I am fully prepared to do what has to be done.

It needs to be said though that if the pilot workforce as a collective fails to back up the CC the company will know it can do what it wants both in the short and long term. It is sad to say that after that there will be little point in remaining in the union and I would award myself a 1% payrise. If we can hang together and get a decent increase BALPA are welcome to the increase in subs they will have earnt.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

And be fair the dash makes the money

Really? Proof? Why does it matter? You are all Flybe Pilots.

So when the Dash gets offered 10% and the 195 gets offered 5%, mutually inclusive are you going to vote for or against? Seeing as you earn all the money should you get a bigger pay rise? If you don't think that then why mention it?

I hope you get my drift, STICK TOGETHER and get the best for everybody.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

And 58 Dashes cost? 12 195's cost? Salaries between each fleet cost? Revenue per flight comparison?

Anyway, your first post had a hint of you want what you earnt and you want it ASAP bugger the rest. Unfortunately in the past that has resulted in a less than better deal for the Embraer and 146 guys. Bear in mind that the Dash is the bigger fleet and, therefore, have the bigger vote it is highly likely that that is what will happen again.

Unless you all stick it up Frenchies bum.

[Sharky12t]

Shiny TV's now appearing in Crew Rooms, possible new management tactics.

YouTube - Hypnotode (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-06MKcEptE)

The fact that it's a frog is purely coincidental. :E

[Coffin Corner]

http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/happy/happy0009.gif

That made me laugh so hard it's hurting Sharky12t :E

[Otto Throttle]

Yes, I wondered about the whole TV thing. It does say rather a lot about the lack of understanding in EXT as to what pilots and cabin crew do that they think we will be sitting around to be able to watch TV during our working day. :ugh:

[SmilingKnifed]

In unrelated news, does anyone want to buy a telly?

Well, seeing as they won't give me a payrise! :E

[tunawholesalers]

I dont really understand that vi ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD!!!

[Serenity]

Now Flybe are really taking the p*ss,

Not only are Aprils pay discussions still being dragged out, blue skies scheduling seems to have been put on permanent hold, amongst other ways that Flybe are trying to break the pilots to a new low, but now;

Flybe have now told BALPA that stand bys will now be lengthened by 2 hours to 10 hours max." This will cause less disruption to the crews" - yes because we will have less time off.
Crewing will stand you down early if not required, but the duty hours will be recycled later in the month, hence more instability.
This will also mean that disruption payments will be harder to get as the original duty hours will be longer.

This has been forced through with no consultation!!
Wait to see what the next new low will be........

[Abbey Road]

That is 'instability', not "unstability". :ok:

[Coffin Corner]

And another member of the PPRuNe Spelling & Grammar Police raises his head :rolleyes:

This latest move is despicable, indeed Serenity what is next on the drawing board? How much longer are we going to let them hammer us without action? It's time to unite as a crew and stand up and be counted.
I am thinking this is all a diabolical scheme to drive as many people from the company as possible to replace them with lower paid cadets. There can be no other reason.

[Love_joy]

Flybe have now told BALPA that stand bys will now be lengthened by 2 hours to 10 hours max

Does the above not constitute a contractual change? At the very least it is a modification to the scheduling agreement and must surely be mutually agreeable?

This business of 'recycling' hours has been going on for a while anyway, we must all have seen the infamous "was xxx, now xxx due to high hours".

[Love_joy]

Oh, and as an aside....

it would be nice to wake up one morning to see "BALPA TELL Flybe that..."

Personally, I've had enough of the softly softly approach. I'm not saying all guns blazing, just that were meant to be on the same side and its time they took us a bit more seriously.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Unfortunately there is nothing in the current SA that stipulates what the maximum standby period can be. It was just the naive hope, I suppose, that the company would adhere to the spirit of the SA by keeping standbys to the 6-8hr range as they are with Block Stbys.

Ah well vaseline at the ready for a disruptive December, only 10 standbys to negotiate

[six-sixty]

we'd better all shut T.F up else stbys will go to 12hrs.

This place is starting to resemble Ryanair without the high pay and charming reasonable management :mad:

[Big_Picture]

I'm I being a bit dumb or did balpa go into a meeting to complain about removal of the aims info and flights being uncovered for days until the morning of your standby to avoid a DP. They come out with an increase in stby duty length and the aims info back (which if you believe the original reason is now is contravention of the data protection act... I know, I know).

Top negotiation this............ I'll expect them to agree my pay cut by next week. :rolleyes:

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Big Picture - If you're a BALPA member get on the company forums and let the council know of your concerns directly rather than blasting them on an anonymous forum. You'll find that one had absolutely nothing to do with the other

[Coffin Corner]

Big Picture

You'll also do well to get your facts right. The company arbitrarily increased standbys to 10hrs without consultation. Maybe you should retract what you said.

[Big_Picture]

Ok ok, so the company fired this one out of their own accord. Yet another unilateral move by the management to cause bother and erode goodwill / moral. Nowt to do with the CC but I hope you can forgive my frustration.

I am a fully paid up Balpa member and the council have my support, maybe I'm just a little fed of the apparent lack of progress not unlike many of my colleagues in the crew room.

[Coffin Corner]

We're all feeling it mate. Hang in there, it can only get better..........it can't get much worse - or can it?

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Yeah, keep the faith (company's taken everything else)

[SmilingKnifed]

BOSD, hate to say this mate, but you're behind on your NotACs.

'Crew faith has had to be withdrawn with immediate effect, pending a cost neutral solution, to which of course we are fully committed. Any decision on hope is still to be made, but given the current financial climate, in which Flybe is barely surviving, crew must be prepared to make reasonable concessions to ensure the long term viability of the business.'

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

I'd abandoned all hope years ago, now back to the cricket

[flyhigh2fly]

Darwin airlines buys flybaboo! In the paper this morning. I guess no swiss aoc then!

[5 RINGS]

who believed that nonsense rumour anyway?

[Palangi]

Where's Bob Crow when you need him?

[Big_Picture]

Well there is the announcement of the float.... does this mean we have more bargaining power? Will the new shareholders be amenable to a pilot pay rise? Should BALPA publicise the workforce are disgruntled? Raises more questions than it answers for me.

BBC News - Flybe plans to join stock market (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11872395)

[BluffOldSeaDog]

BBC Website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-11941318)

[topHAT_Air]

The profits are going somewhere...

Flybe set for £200m float - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8171225/Flybe-set-for-200m-float.html)

[Love_joy]

Chatting to an economist colleague of mine just this afternoon, he believed that potential Strike, or Industrial Action at the airline could affect the share price by as much as 30-40%.

Management have been fools to let this run on and on, it should have been nipped in the bud and implemented months ago. The BALPA 'demands' are not entirely unreasonable either.

Fingers crossed for a speedy resolution. I for one do not want to strike, it is unfair to our passengers, BUT I will if we have to.

[FANS]

Guys

Heard the City owes you a massive thank you for not derailing the flotation with talk of striking.

There was a real risk that your CEO wouldn't realise his £millions, so you've been a huge help. You can't imagine how close it actually all was - I heard a rumour that the deal team assigned a junior to check this thread!

Anyway, he'll be off soon to spend his money, so you'll be negotiating with a new CEO. The problem is that he needs profits to keep growing, and now you' re listed, they need to grow every quarter.

Your management team call can now tell you to F off properly with any talk of big pay rises/strikes, as if you couldn't get anything substantive out of them before the float, you're not now it's a listed vehicle.

[Chief Brody]

I grant you FANS retort was brutal but its difficult to dispute the crux of his or her message.

Sometimes we get angry with people because deep down we know what they're saying is true - I feel thats whats happened here Wingo.

I'll get the lights, this threads over.

CB

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I don't think anyone at Flybe was daft enough to think they could derail the flotation.

The real target of any industrial action will be be Summer '11. Will it be profitable or not? That depends on Uncle Jim's response to the announcement of industrial action.

[RHINO]

Sorry if I missed this, but how many shares did the workforce get during this flotation. Did you have to pay any money for them?

[Whispering Giant]

Shares were given gratis (free) to all eligable employees in 2004 and 2006. The amount given to each employee depended on what there position was in the company and how long they had been in the company.
Shares were NOT given to the BA connect guy's when they joined as they were not a part of the company when the Share issue was first mooted and first round of share's issued.
If a employee then decided to leave the company from the time the shares were issued to the date of initial flotation then they forfeited there right's to there shares and these were put back into the pot for re-issue.

hope this helps.

[Coffin Corner]

BUT

The majority of the workforce got nothing.

[excrab]

Coffin Corner,

The original share issue, I believe, was intended to reward the employees of Jersey European Airways at the time for their loyalty and hard work over a period of years - you didn't get it just because you happened to work for them on the day the share certificates were issued.

It is the loyalty part which meant that if you left the company, as I did, that you had to return the certificate. I also recall that there were restrictions as to how any shares received at the eventual flotation could be disposed of, but I no longer have the details - one of your more senior colleagues might be able to tell you more.

The majority of the work force didn't get anything because the majority of the work force haven't/hadn't worked there long enough to be entitled to them. If that somehow seems unfair maybe balpa should take it up.

[Coffin Corner]

excrab

I am not bemoaning the fact that I have no shares, my response to Whispering Giant was so because RHINO had asked how many shares the workforce received during the float. WG's response, although dated, didn't state that the majority of the workforce received no shares. I didn't want RHINO to think the majority did, because we didn't.

[FL370 Officeboy]

I'd be surprised if much more than a quarter of the workforce have shares in fact.

[JAR]

Initially about 1400 Jersey European staff were granted shares by the late Jack Walker on 31 May 2005.

Those eligible were to have had a minimum of 3 years service on that date.

[RHINO]

thanks for that, quite enlightening!

It seems to me if your directors were bothered about what you think they would have issued (or allowed you to buy at an advantageous price) all employees with shares. Ensuring that you were ALL tied into the businesses future. Given they have not leads me to think they reckon you guys (and girls) have nowt in your trousers as far as improving your T and C's.

good luck!

[SmilingKnifed]

As much as I'd like to buy shares, as a year 4 F/O my salary is stretched enough with food, rent and loan payments.

Thanks for the offer though Uncle Jim :mad:

[Love_joy]

Based on BALPA's press release this morning, the make or break meetings between management and themselves are imminent.

It's been impressive to watch the crews rallying behind BALPA on this one, and a few i have spoken to have joined the union in order to make their point.

Watch this space.

[skeletor]

RHINO, I think you hit the nail on the head. Flybe completely neglected to offer employees the opportunity to buy shares at the option price.....another kick in the balls, indicative of management's contempt for their workforce given the current situation. It would have cost them next to nothing and may have improved moral at a time when it's desperately needed.

[PaulJ1957]

Page 15: Risk relating to the business

"The Group is dependent on good industrial relations

Many of the Group’s employees are represented by trade unions and the Group has voluntary recognition agreements in place with BALPA in respect of its pilots, UNITE in respect of its cabin crew and Prospect in respect of its engineers. The Group undertakes collective bargaining with such unions on a financial yearly basis. While agreements have been reached with UNITE and Prospect in respect of the 2010/11 Financial Year, the Group is currently in discussion with BALPA (under the dispute resolution process agreed in Flybe’s voluntary recognition agreement with BALPA) in relation to the 2010/11 Financial Year pay settlement and certain scheduling issues. Any breakdown in the bargaining process with BALPA (or with UNITE or Prospect generally) could result in the Group being unable to continue to negotiate wages and salaries on terms that support it offering services at competitive prices, or could lead to strikes or other industrial action (or the threat of strikes or industrial action) which could damage the Group’s reputation or cause passengers to book with the Group’s competitors. A breakdown in the relationship with employee representative bodies, or the employees themselves, could lead to industrial action being taken which could in turn have a material adverse effect on the Group’s business, results of operations, growth prospects and/or financial condition."


Page 44. A "Key element" of strategy
"the group will continue to focus on cost reductions across all aspects of the Flybe business with the aim of delivering the lowest unit cost base amongst European regional airlines"

Enough said!

Best of luck in getting a fair result,

[PaulJ1957]

Two more from the prospectus

Page 16 (Risk)

In addition, pilots are from time to time in short supply in the European airline industry and the Group may have to expend significant amounts of time in recruiting and training them. There has historically been a trend in the industry for senior pilots in short haul airlines (such as the Group) to leave in order to join airlines with longer haul routes, particularly when the global economy is strong and there is high demand for experienced pilots to fly on international routes. Although in the last few years the Group has maintained a relatively high retention rate in respect of pilots, this may change when the economy improves. ......Any significant shortage of highly trained or specialised employees could have a material adverse effect on the Group’s business, results of operations, growth prospects and/or financial condition.

Page 62; employee Incentivisation

Flybe recognises the importance of its people to the success of the Group. Consequently, the Group’s remuneration policy is designed to be market competitive in order to motivate and retain talented executives, align the reward strategy with delivery of the business strategy, incentivise and reward sustainable profit growth and the creation of long-term value, and align employee behaviours with the interests of shareholders.

Ummm???

[Hypo Thalamus]

Consequently, the Group’s remuneration policy is designed to be market competitive in order to motivate and retain talented executives

Are flight crew executives or bottom feeding scum?

Interestingly an airline can operate without members of one group but not the other..

[RHINO]

Somebody mentioned earlier about the float possibly being pulled. I have know doubt it was on a knife edge. Any talk of industrial action in the press would have seen the float pulled. It probably explains why it was one of the most low key floats of the year. What an opportunity missed....

It's back to the bottom of the tank....

[assymetricdrift]

Page 44. A "Key element" of strategy
"the group will continue to focus on cost reductions across all aspects of the Flybe business with the aim of delivering the lowest unit cost base amongst European regional airlines"

Ok... am I the only person out there who finds this paragraph actually quite worrying. As if it's not enough that the average salary in the company (excluding directors and their 28% payrise) has fallen by a couple of percent, this makes it appear that this is one of their key points. They don't want to pay us above the inflation rate, in order so it will cost them less.

I understand that key talks are going on today - I hope that the result is a fair one to all pilots out there - I've had enough of being treated in the way that the company have done. It's a wonder that half the people turn up to work with the levels of morale in the crewrooms.

Jims £1000000 interest free loan just totally takes the p155 out us all. It's a shame that the directors are just looking after themselves in this issue... no regard for us who have been making the money for the company.

And this flight efficiency. I will bloody well only do it when the company give me a fair payrise. Even if it means getting in 30 minutes early on each sector. I'm not funding any more of Jims little ventures willingly.

Rant over.
Beer...

[oldbaldeagle]

Is it not unlawful for a company to make a loan to a director in order to allow him/her to buy shares in the company? It used to be, I'm sure.

[skeletor]

correction, the loan was used to the ceo buy a house in london

[PT6Driver]

Perhaps they are waiting for industrial action, then when the share price falls they can buy shares with their loans:E

[Toastal]

Fans retort is brutal, but sadly correct. And when you guys go all e-jet,(Q400 replacement, as well as expansion over the next 4-5yrs), the salaries will not remotely reflect industry standard.

What's your latest on the single-salary pay scale? Are the company still trying to push that little GEM through?

T:suspect:

[doodle2]

More from the prospectus:


7.4 It is intended that the following awards over Ordinary Shares be granted to Directors and Senior Management on Admission or within six weeks thereafter pursuant to the PSP:




Maximum value of



Ordinary Shares


under award (by


reference to the


Name Offer Price) Earliest Vesting Date


Jim French . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £500,000 Third anniversary of award date


Mark Chown . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £95,000 Third anniversary of award date


Andrew Knuckey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £250,000 Third anniversary of award date


Mike Rutter . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £250,000 Third anniversary of award date


Andrew Strong . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £250,000 Third anniversary of award date


Chris Simpson . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £60,000 Third anniversary of award date


Mark Elkins . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £104,000 Third anniversary of award date


Simon Charles . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . £104,000 Third anniversary of award date

[salsaboy]

So, has anyone 'heard' what the pay deal is?! It's been provisionally agreed but not going to ballot until mid/end of Jan!

[Coffin Corner]

Nothin at all. If they have agreed anything meagre like 2% per year for a 3 year deal then it's getting a big fat no from me. It is going to have to be pretty spectacular to tie us in for 3 years. I really dont understand why we have to wait to be told.

[salsaboy]

I agree... and all others I have flown with in the last week feel the same too.
We'll see.

[Love_joy]

Would the first year of a 3 year pay deal already have lapsed?

The deal we are striking now is expected to back date to April 2010, so the first anniversary is already looming.

I like the concept of a 3 year deal, we all know where we stand and it gives both sides time to breath before starting it all again when the time comes to renew.

[Coffin Corner]

Most likely lapsed yes. A 3 year deal would be good, but it depends on the content as I said above. If it is for a meagre amount of something like 2% then we have undernegotiated considering we are emerging from a recession and going into good times.

The other thing about having it backdated (and yes, we should have it backdated) is that many F/Os at the bottom end of the scale will lose out tax wise should they get a lump sum. Doesn't matter to captains as they already pay 40%.

[salsaboy]

I can't think how the lump sum arriving in a different tax year would affect anyone other those near the higher rate threshold?
I assume that anyone under £40k ish pa would still only pay BR? (unless of course BALPA manage to get us the 28% we deserve like the directors! We can but dream!)

I also feel that the duty pay should be tackled... put up to £2.50 or more... not the same meagre 2-6% = £1.99 ish? PAH!
now it's being taxed, earnings are LESS than 2 years ago!

[Big_Picture]

Duty pay hasn't been changed for years and years I understand. It wasn't taxed previously either. If it is supposed to be for incidental sustenance during a flying day then it is due a hefty increase if you consider what a sandwich / drink costs compared to several years ago.

Also the crew food problem is now fixed with the imminent introduction of a pot noodle. Okay, some may say it's a step in the right direction as now you can get some hot food on the dash, but for me I think I may already be getting enough MSG and e-numbers. Just strikes of minimum effort.

[Los Endos]

Sad to see that you guys are suffering from the same indignities as we are in EZY. As you will be aware EZY has been a public shareholder company for some time and for us mere mortals this has meant a year on year devaluation of our renumeration and conditions. As sure as day follows night you will be reminded almost daily of the need to cut costs and make savings in every department in order to maintain a competitive edge. At the same time your mid and top end managers will be rewarded with ever increasing bonuses and share packages, some of obscene proportions, for making these savings and thus increasing shareholder value. The AMB, who award themselves even bigger packages, then tend, not surprisingly, to "move on to new challenges" at an alarmingly high rate only to be followed by a replacement with a raft of new ideas. The onslaught is relentless for us so I would suggest that you guys dig your heels in and don't allow the gold diggers to get an early foot hold. Do your management and AMB eat pot noodles ?

[Coffin Corner]

I can't think how the lump sum arriving in a different tax year would affect anyone other those near the higher rate threshold?
I assume that anyone under £40k ish pa would still only pay BR?

Salsaboy.

That would be correct if we got paid annually but we don't. Your tax is worked out monthly pro rata for the year, i.e. Whatever you get paid in the month is multiplied by 12, you then pay tax accordingly.
If your gross for January is £2500, this is multiplied by 12 (£30k) so it keeps you under the higher rate (of £36k I think it is now).
If you earn £3500 in the month this will equate to £42000 in the year, so £6k over the top end. £36,000 divided by 12 is obviously £3,000. So £500 of your monthy wage will be taxed at 40%.
If you added a £1500 backdate to your monthly wage then a fair chunk of it will be taxed at 40%. Because you should have received the payrise in small portions per month (keeping it under the top end rate) if you are earning anywhere near £3,000 per month now then all of the backdated pay will be taxed at 40%. That equates to a few hundred pounds out of pocket.

Unless of course, the taxman will be informed it is backdated pay and tax it as it should have been taxed originally. I doubt it though.

[salsaboy]

Simple old payroll systems would calculate it that way yes, but these days it should be simple enough to calculate it at source as a backdated annual increment as it is... However, if it is done incorrectly (as we can expect!) then we can sort it directly with the inland revenue, resulting in a cheque for the overpayment(which won't be a huge amount) but worst case with an adjusted tax code for the subsequent year... Far from ideal but we shouldn't end up out of pocket.

[Coffin Corner]

Salsaboy.

Old pay system or not, if the inland revenue sees this payment as a pure lump sum then you will be overtaxed. I am not sure, or up to speed enough with the system to know if the tax man is even allowed to differentiate between back dated pay and a lump sum.

[salsaboy]

... if I am overtaxed I will claim it back...

Anyway...

Anyone heard what the deal MIGHT be?!

[VIRGA]

Its not 5 or 6%, which in itself is far less than it should be (circa 15% year 1 then another 5% every year for 5 years and we may just be on par).

Seemingly the big focus of discussion was on the lates to earlies issue. Frankly, in my opinion, this should very much have been a second discussion and probably concerns less the 10% of the pilot workforce, the other 90% would rather get paid properly first for the way we work now surely i.e like our friends in other airlines, and deal with the shift roster pattern later.

If the talk is of a 3 year deal then we are pi55ing in the wind with a 6% deal as this will be out dated and below the cost of living in 6 months anyway.

A post on 'flyingbe' indicates that the interest rates are forecast to rise to 8% soon. I hope he's wrong because Im screwed on this meagre salary.

[Resurgam]

Virga - agree with you about pay: 15% year 1 and 5% subsequently would be about right to start raising pay from it's currently dismal levels towards something approaching industry norms.
However lifestyle is important too;though I think that the total number of days off - we get significantly less than most others, and the 108 day off rule is why we get so many pointless make-work standbys - is more important than lates to earlies.
Unless the agreement makes substantial progress towards addressing the above aspirations I'll vote against it when we ballot, and judging by the results of the pole on the flyingbee web site so will others.
　
Time for the company to stop taking the piss.
Time to stand up, instead of keeping bending over and taking it.
Time to strike.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Chaps, I've heard on the grapevine that your offer will be weighted more towards lifesyle improvement (that'll make a change then) than pay rise. I've heard that the offer won't be far away from the original 2%.

What on earth are Balpa asking for? 5% and what? Or lifestyle improvement and what? Or maybe they're only negotiating for one!

Should they not be asking for implementation of Bluesky rostering AND a decent - NOT 5% - payrise? As Virga said a minimum of 15% should be awarded but at the expense of what? I hope nothing.

Ok, go on strike, or even just threaten it, but it seems that all you're going to get is one and not the other.

I hope, for all your sakes, that you get both. Don't let them screw you over again.

[Calmcavok]

It needs to be no less than 5% with a serious implementation of the Bluesky SA. Otherwise a big fat No from me with a hope of industrial action to make the point clear.

[Coffin Corner]

No need to strike, just working to rule will bring the airline to its knees

[Chief Brody]

It doesn't matter whether you strike or work to rule as both are management 'attention getters'

Lets be realists, Flybe pilots have long been thought of by Exeter as an endless source of good will who lack the stomach it takes to strike.

There are two problems at hand here (actually loads but these two are on my mind)...

1 The problem of WHO works for Flybe and..
2 Who's job is it to defend the rights of Flybe pilots and co-ordinate strike action / 'work to rule' if necessary

Problem 1 Broadly speaking there are 3 types of Flybe pilot. Starters, enders and those who live close to a regional base and want a quiet life. Starters are just happy for a job, previously at flight school they look out at the world and see a lot of people who'd like to be in their shoes, they also know that this is the first stepping stone to that eventual A380 LHS (ok bit of a hyperbole but you get the idea) - net result is that UNDERSTANDABLY this fraternity of Flybe pilot just want to keep their head down, wait for sunnier times and thus plot their escape. Net result don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr.

Enders - We all know them, ex BA, Cathay etc who most likely retired at 55 and looked for a cushy direct entry LHS somewhere in Blighty. They are already living off their company pension and are looking to spend 5 years or so putting most of their earnings into another pension scheme to make life after 60/65 just that bit sweeter - cant blame them, I'd do it myself. They lie low, they join in the flight deck 'management slaggin' banter but again don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr - they're already contemplating the shade of leather upholstery aboard their 50ft Sunseeker in 5/4/3/2/1 years time.

And so to the last group - the ladies and gents who live close to EXT, SOU, IOM, JER, GUR, NCL, INV etc who arent fussed by ending up in a legacy carrier or wide body charter operation - just want to do a days toil on the dash, drive only 20 minutes to work and very much like the small base feel where everybody knows everyone - cool, I've no problem with that. But again, if I were in an organisation where I intended to spend a decent portion of if not all of my career I probably wouldn't be the first person to stick my head above the parapet and yell 'Oi Jimbo, anyone ever tell you you're a class A mug and I say we all strike - by the way see you at the christmas knees up down the Frog and Duck.' So again - don't expect these guys to lead from the front re any industrial action or wtr.

So to problem 2 - if no one group is gonna step forward, who's job is it to negotiate until the 11th hour and then initiate industrial action (if voted to do so)? Is that BALPA I hear someone say. Too bloody right - trouble is they're more than happy to take a percentage of all our pay (I don't work for Flybe btw) but also happy for all of you to take it up the backside when it comes time to share the wealth now that Flybe has finally made good on its stock market aspirations. I compare BALPA in this particular matter to Neville Chamberlain - spineless with an eagerness to placate those who need to be brought to task.

BTW - I hope the armchair critics among you will recognise that I have not proposed an answer to the troubles at Flybe. Truth is I dont know what to do. But I would say that withdrawing your BALPA subs would certainly be worth considering. They after all are meant to be the ones who put up with all the sh*t so you dont have to - trouble is so far they've done a lot of talking but basically bugger all.

[Desk-pilot]

CB I do think there is some merit in your analysis above and there are some who want to keep their heads down for sure. However I really do think the worm has finally turned with the release of the information showing that:

Our CEO earns more than Willie Walsh!!
JF has been lent £1 million interest free and with no repayment date to buy a Knightsbridge apartment
The Directors seem to have awarded themselves bonuses of £250 000 to £500 000 each as a pat on the back for achieving flotation.
Directors pay increased 28% last year

In addition due to the recession more flight crew than ever have had to stay with Flybe so there are a whole load of experienced FO's with little chance of command/progression who want to see a big improvement in T's and C's - this bunch never expected to still be here and are getting more disillusioned by the day. There's also a bunch of 30's 40's Captains raising families and struggling and wondering why they're on £50-£60k and their mate in Easyjet is on £110k. These two groups make up a large percentage of the pilot community and they never existed in such numbers before. Both need more disposable income and more time off. Both are determined to get it and if a strike is necessary so be it...

The company froze pay last year and offered 2% rise this year to a workforce who work more days than any other UK airline for about 70% of other airline's pay. The old argument that the company used that they are a little struggling airline who couldn't afford to pay people properly simply won't wash anymore with the news that there's cash sloshing around so readily at the top.

Clearly the float was excellent news for the Directors, but I actually think it's proved even better news for the workers who now have the information they need to win the argument...

People are extremely angry here and know for sure now they have actually been exploited in recent years on pay and rostering. There will be a industrial action unless serious progress is made on pay and lifestyle this time - there is a very high level of bitterness in the crewrooms every day directed against management.

Cancelling BALPA subs won't help at all, Only BALPA can negotiate with management properly, only BALPA can ballot for industrial action, only BALPA cares about improving worker conditions here - if you don't back them now then don't moan next time you get shafted by Exeter...

[mad_bob]

DP ...Well said I couldn't agree more.

[salsaboy]

Absolutely...

If we want to show strength as a group we need as many as possible to JOIN NOW... pay your subs... see how we get on... if you're not happy with what we get, THEN leave... for the sake of 2 or 3 months membership it might make the difference... if the company see that it's EVERY pilot (or as close to that as possible) then we're more likely to get somewhere.

Encourage as many non-members to join. If you leave now then we all get screwed again!

[Iakovos]

Absolutely agree with CB's analysis that the majority of the pilots fit into the 3 types he listed.

And DP you have hit the nail on the head regarding how the mood has changed since those figures came out about the big bonuses.

The main problem is that the Enders, which makes up the biggest proportion in my opinion, don't really mind which way things go.. They will empathise with the FO's with huge training loans that are counting every penny, but are they really prepared to stick their necks out for us Starters and Vote no when this ballot finally arrives? I'm sure some are, but definitely not as many as we need for our biggest collective voice.

Also, a lot of Enders have seen Balpa's perceived failings in the past and have lost faith in them and no longer subscribe, which is a real shame.

I personally think a lot of this airline, but it could be so much better. JF keeps saying in his newsletters how much he appreciates his workforce, so why not show it a bit more. Why not get away from the Training airline image and make people want to stay.

Its disappointing that the Balpa forum is almost dead regarding this Pay subject. More are voicing concerns on here and FlyingBe, I assume due to the advantage of anonymity.

We all need to support Balpa though, that's what it comes down to, or we will forever be moaning and just putting up with it.

Join Balpa, if only for the next year to enable one solid voice.

[silverknapper]

CB

First class! :D

[excrab]

CB

I apologise if I am wrong in this, but I can't help thinking that you are missing the point of how a union works - it can be any union in any industry, be it airlines, railways or coal mines.

You are the union. You can't just say "here's my two percent, now sort it out" and expect someone else to solve your problems. Your company council should have already done a survey of members to see how many would have supported industrial action before they went to the negotiating table. Then they would know how strong their position was. If you and every other member didn't say yes, and mean it, you might as well give up, because without the support of the membership the company council and whoever your full time negotiator is can achieve nothing. They know it and the management know it. A union can only achieve concessions from management if the managers believe that there is a chance of industrial action. It is the unions nuclear deterrent, and without it, even if you don't intend to really use it, you cannot win.

If your analysis of the three pilot groups in flybe is correct, and I'm sure it is, then you are not going to achieve anything. All you will get is what the management want you to get. Last time it was substantial pay rises for Dash captains and trainers because of pilot retention problems. But you got that because thirty pilots a month were resigning at a time when they couldn't easily replaced. Now there are no end of potential F/Os champing at the bit to increase their flying hours who would happily take £21k and a three year bond for a job on a Q400. And I would also suggest that there are plenty of unemployed experienced pilots who would be happy to step into the left hand seat given the oppportunity, even if they do have to go from earlies to lates and eat pot noodles - £52k plus flight pay is far better than £65 per week job seekers allowance.

I suspect that for all the rhetoric in this thread, you will be lucky to get more than a rise in line with RPI, and probably not even that.

And also remember that outside of the flybe bubble the UK is facing massive spending cuts in the public sector. It is going to be short of policemen, nurses, doctors, firemen. Don't even mention the armed forces. Unemployment is going up every day and everyone with any sense is worried about their jobs. How much support do you think that the public will give to a bunch of striking airline pilots ruining their travel plans because they are not happy about being the highest paid turbo prop and regional jet captains in the UK. They won't be hooting in support of your pickets like they did for the firemen.

Jim French knows that. He isn't stupid. I suspect that the company council knows it as well.

[largegeorgejones]

Work to rule it is then. Much goodwill has been lost through all this. No matter how you look at it, that is not good for a company. If JF is worth his salt, he will also know this.

[Chief Brody]

OK - last thing I want to do is piss on a hornets nest - please don‘t think I‘m down on BALPA. The point of my last post was: Their whole raison d’etre is to accurately represent the voice of the their members - their members are REALLY pissed, therefore so too should BALPA be - instead they’ve been wishy washy on this issue. Hell its been bubbling away in one guise or another since before I left in 2008.

Now, in BA BALPA do brilliant work - I cant sing their praise high enough. Continually, and I’ll say it again continually, keeping their finger on the pulse of the pilot community. Barely a week goes by when there aren’t updates or surveys from them - what have your meals been like recently, what do you think of this, or that etc etc. They do sterling work.

But I stand by my statement regarding their handling of this issue - its been very much sub par. So too really are the meals you’re confronted with each day. BALPA see to it that its contractual at BA that crew meals must be ‘…to a first class standard…’ ie serve it up to the ladies and gents paying thousands to go to NY and they should say ‘that’s lovely, thank you’. Its scripture, so it is written, so it is done! Now I grant you sometimes (though rarely) I scratch my head and think: first class where - Ivory Coast Airways? But I think back to the manky 1000 calorie chicken salad special, packet of McVities and Daily Lee Dunkers at Flybe and quickly whoof it down thanking my lucky stars. Youre pissed at the crew food - so too should BALPA be (that’s their job) and yet fast forward more than two years since I left and its still being bemoaned on this very site.

Soon after I join Nigels gang the company crunched the numbers and said that as an airline we had about 100 pilots too many and made no secret that redundancies were being considered - crap my pants I did, I don’t mind admitting it. However, BALPA were bloody first rate - did their own number crunching, came up with proposals, took surveys on them, liased constantly with the company and eventually it all went away like a bad dream - VR was offered (80ish took it), a one year pay freeze was agreed upon with share options for the remaining pilot community further down the line depending on xyz. All done in the space of about 5 months.

Now, I have huge affection for my former colleagues at Flybe. And because I do the level of service they should expect from BALPA (and receive it) should be no less than what we get at BA. Afterall all members pay the same percentage from their wages regardless of company - and given the labour intensity at Flybe I would say my friends there work at lot harder than I do pound for pound.

Enough time has passed on this issue - nearing a thousand days minimum (since I’ve been gone) and yet actually very little has changed. The average FO however in the same time frame (paying about 30 quid a month) has paid just shy of a grand in subs - well shoot me down for saying it, but he might as well have put a match to his money - the foods still dire, the wage still below industry standard, scheduling still leaving everyone knackered - or have I been looking at another version of this website for 2 years?

[Desk-pilot]

CB,

Your post is excellent and you must kiss the ground everday you turn up at the gates of T5 or Waterside, I sincerely hope I get the chance to join you one day! I've concluded that the Flybe crewfood is a sure way of killing people who stay here too long to ensure Exeter aren't saddled with people staying and climbing too high up the meagre payscale.

Any news on the type rating restrictions at BA being lifted?? There's about 700 of us here who would like to swap living like a 16th century sailor "Terrible food, miserable living conditions, brutal discipline" for a rather more civilised lifstyle as a Nigel - "How would Sir like his Tournedos Rossini cooked?"

My lips are moist with anticipation... and so are those of my bank manageress!

[Chief Brody]

DP,

I think the crews are great at Flybe. I bury my head in my hands when I read and hear about the crap you still have to contend with. The arterial network that Flybe operates forms part of the life blood of this country - to a greater degree than BA IMHO (lets not get into that - another time, another place maybe) and you don't deserve the way you're treated - any of you!

I'm not a great fan of thread creepers so I'll keep this brief...

I know two people involved with BA recruitment (both are interviewers) - one is a friend, the other a flight deck colleague. Both are good blokes.

Seeing as this is a rumour website, Im gonna start one!

I have been told by one of them that the powers that be have decided that the 80 pilots hired/going through selection at the moment is not enough. And that actually about another 60 are needed.

Apparently that thought has been put to 'the board' - with a decision pending.

Now this is what I was told. As to whether (if true) they would insist on only TR people applying for the ~60 posts I don't know.

Take care all.

[excrab]

CB

I believe, looking from the outside, that Balpa in BA has huge advantages. These are 1) High percentage of the work force are members and 2) The management are prepared to talk to the union.

At a lot of other airlines where recognition has been forced through ACAS with 51% membership the management don't want to talk to them and the members don't understand what I was saying in my previous post. Balpa head office provides the reps and company councils with tools to be used, including each company being allocated it's own negotiator. But after that the Balpa that Flybe pilots have is not the same Balpa that BA pilots have and that is not the same Balpa that BMI pilots have etc. The union at each airline is dependent on the company council members being prepared to go up against the management and not being there to serve their own ends. Anyone who moans about "their" union should be asking "could I do better?", and if the answer is yes they should be standing for election at the next opportunity.

The membership fees doesn't go to the company council members or the reps, who often give up a lot of their own time and also may well earn less in flight pay as a result of union duties. They just get their out of pocket expenses reimbursed. It supports Balpas head office, which in my humble opinion could just as easily be in a set of portacabins in Swindon as in a smart office at Heathrow. Whilst most of the head office staff have the needs of the pilots at heart it should not be forgotten that the more members the more secure Balpa staffs jobs are. It should also, in my opinion, be remembered that about three years ago Balpas full time staff came within days of strike action to preserve their own final salary pension scheme - probably partly financed by membership fees - at a time when only two UK airlines still provided such schemes for employees.

Sorry about drifting off the thread, by the way.

[Anodyne]

Chief Brody - your assessment of the 3 types of pilot at flybe would have been broardly correct if you'd written it about 3 or 4 years ago, but since then the recession has brought about a huge demographic shift in the pilot workforce at flybe - Desk Pilot alludes to it when he mentions the 30's and 40's Captains, but lets also include the 20's and 30's first officers as well.

This group, 3 or 4 years ago, didn't give a damn what happened at flybe because they believed that in a year, 18 months, or 2 years, they wouldn't still be here. The recession and the growth of the Pay to Fly phenomenon (which is making people wonder if, when recruitment gets going again, there will be opportunities unless you're prepared stump up multi thousand quid) has brought about a huge attitude change - flybe might be it, at least for the forseeable future, so we'd all better start taking an interest.
The change may not be too noticable at the small island and Celtic fringe bases, where people are happy to live where they live and have an easy life, but is very noticable at the large mainland bases such as BHX, MAN and SOU, where there is a growing feeling of anger and resentment in the crewrooms.

BALPA is far from perfect, but it is what we the membership within the company make it, and for the doubters there are 2 compelling reasons to join now:
Firstly; it is the only path to legal industrial action.
Secondly; we have been assured that when the agreement is announced we, the BALPA members, will be balloted on it - no membership: no vote - so if you're not happy with what's on offer (and I suspect that will be a lot of us), and you're not a BALPA member so you can't vote against it - don't whinge!

[excrab]

Anodyne,

Do you know exactly what your cc is asking for? Is it the right thing.

Much as people don't like to hear it - flybe captains are better paid than others - for turbo props compare to Eastern, Air Southwest, Logan air, and for jets compare to cityflier and bmi regional. If there is a limited amount of money available and what you say is true then perhaps it should be channeled towards a pay rise for F/Os on year 3 and upwards.

[Burpbot]

I dont see how a work to rule could ever work. We all know to well they will just change the rules :mad::ugh:

[VIRGA]

excrab you gota be sh..tt..g me.

[six-sixty]

All this business about how lucky we are because we earn more than Eastern etc will become moot in a few years anyway when we're all on E-jets. The Jet scales are there for all to see. JF is on record as saying the Q400s are all being replaced. The company would have to be extremely sure it could stand a long outright war with its workforce should they try to weasel out of it by saying those scales don't apply any more.

I agree I think this deal on offer is likely to be very light on cash and weighted towards giving us a more humane scheduling agreement. This would be very welcome but something which should have been ours years ago anyway not a bone to throw us so they can carry on paying us bottom £.

The elephant in the room though... the new EASA FTLs if they come in as proposed. If those b***ard Eurocrats legislate for 30% more productivity from us, reduced rest etc etc, then (and this applies to all airlines) arguing about 5% here or there goes out the window... I definitely did not sign up for routine 14hr 4 sector early days. I'm nackered enough in the Summer anyway thanks to our lovely rostering. Everything is to be renegotiated as far as I'm concerned.

[Rob82]

The scheduling 'improvements' that it seems are going to form part of our pay deal are most likely going to be things that we have been promised for years. They shouldn't be used in conjunction with the pay offer to soften the blow of the likely poor payrise they want to give us.

The scheduling agreement has fundamental flaws that the company know about and keep saying they will change, but only at the cost of something else.

I for one will be turning down any offer where the payrise is below 6%. And i would only accept a payrise that low with significant improvements in the scheduling.

I'm sure JM is loving his salary, bet he doesn't work 11 hour shifts on weekends or bank holidays and have to sit on freezing aircraft because the APU has 120 day ADD and its -10 outside. Things that we 'lived' with before, are now all coming to light for what they are and the company are digging their hole deeper and deeper the longer it takes to resolve.

Now wheres that picket line.....

[mad_bob]

I'm voting no to anything below 6% for this last year. I'm also none too happy to the idea of a multi year deal unless it is so spectacular it gives the word spectacular a new meaning! :suspect:

[Calmcavok]

DrumMachine:

Good on you. You've made your career at an outfit that wasn't Flybe. It's good to hear you enjoy your base and the airline. However, your position regarding 2% undervalues the whole pilot workforce at Flybe. I would respectfully ask that you might consider supporting a salary increase that might close the gap between Flybe and other major UK operators.

Please consider the majority of us who haven't made a pile of cash offshore flying longhaul. Unity is the way forward on this one.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

To add my 2pence

Personally the pay deal doesn't effect me as I'm ring fenced (on either RPI or 2% whichever is lower - not asking for shed tears) but I fully agree that anything less than 6% would be an insult. Also having the 2 issues of Pay and Lifestyle clubbed together is a non-starter AFAIAC

[salsaboy]

The 'final position of the company' has been 'determined'!!!

[Coffin Corner]

It's now or never people. Stand up and be counted.

[SEAMASTER]

Good luck to all you guys and girls at Flybe with your pay and lifestyle talks, hope you get what you wish for !!

SEAMASTER !!

[Rob82]

CC99, i totally agree.

Now is the time for us all to get behind BALPA and prove to the company that their way is coming to the end and we will not be led down the garden path anymore.

Can't wait for the newsletter so i can see how much they really think of the workforce. All the letters we get from up high say they appreciate us, know we work hard etc. etc. etc. Well now is the time to show your hand and we will play ours.

[salsaboy]

Anyone got the letter/details yet? If so can u pop it on the Balpa site for us to see?!

[Rob82]

From a post on the Balpa forum looks like they are still writing it. Looks like we have to wait a few more days to laugh at the companies offer.....

[Serenity]

Why waste the time and paper. Unless it's outstanding, and most of us doubt that, then I don't think I'd be far from the mark in suggesting that the majority will decline the offer anyway!!

[salsaboy]

So, over a month since Balpa knew about the pay offer and now nearly 2weeks since the scheduling part was finalised...

My postman is bored with my exited, expectant face!

Ho hum.

[six-sixty]

I don't get it. How complicated can an offer be that it takes over a week to write? If it's a poor offer I fail to see how pages of background info on how it was derived will change anyone's mind on whether it's good or not. If it's a reasonable offer, ditto. Everything these days is massively overcomplicated. Maybe when it arrives I'll be enlightened.

[salsaboy]

So do you think the CC are trying to dress it up to try and get us to accept?

I believe all we need are the facts so we can decide.

[Boing7117]

No I don't think the CC would do that.

After all, they've put in an awful lot of time and effort into these negotiations - why would they just settle for something that they know their members wouldn't accept?

I think the reason it's taking so long is that they have to get the exact wording of any deal correct. There can't be a grey area - and I also assume they need the company to ratify whatever it is that BALPA are going to send to their members.

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the reason for the hold-up - waiting for a company sign-off!

[Love_joy]

Suspicions are high that the documentation is taking longer to prepare as it will form the first part of a ballot for industrial action, the rules for this are very specific.

Combining the various crew issues, Pay & Scheduling into one deal is potentially a good idea - but only if generous. If the company fail to deliver on both, the crews will be left thinking they are paying for the long promised lifestyle improvements out of their own pockets!

For too long we have worked hard, head down and agreed to whatever was needed to get the job done. All with the promise that when the good times return we would all share in the prosperity. Well, turns out the good times never left Flybe... lets start to reap the rewards of all out hard work.

[Whispering Giant]

The company must be worried as I've heard on the grape vine that's there's a emergency Base managers meeting this week in Birmingham.

[Burpbot]

Lets hope someone does not ram a pot noodle where the sun doesnt shine ;)

[redED]

The company must be worried as I've heard on the grape vine that's there's a emergency Base managers meeting this week in Birmingham.

My base manager told me the same, looks like it's all hotting up!

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Interesting times. What is a PBM meeting going to accomplish?

[six-sixty]

The company gave the CC their final position on the 7th Jan. It's nearly 2 weeks since then, and I've still have no idea what's going on. Why can't we be told what's on offer and THEN have explanations, ballot papers etc sent out? We're used to being kept in the dark by the company, but increasingly the CC are giving the impression that we're not considered adult enough to process raw information.

I know there's process to follow, but how on earth do outfits like the RMT manage to go on strike like clockwork twice a year and still satisfy due process?? :ugh:

[romankato]

The PBM meeting was today in BHX.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Speaking to a rep yesterday they are not able to leek information ahead of any formal announcement of any (industrial) action as, because FlyBE is now a listed company, there would be implications regarding any possible trading in shares using sensitive privileged information. Said rep is desperate for the announcement to be made (should be by weeks end, just requires Balpa HQ approval of the newsletter) so that all the reps can answer all our questions

[SmilingKnifed]

I'm guessing there'll be an e-copy promulgated by BALPA too? For the benefit of those of us cavorting in Athens.

[redED]

Interesting times. What is a PBM meeting going to accomplish?


Presumably the company want to tell them what story to spin and what the company's stand is?

[BluffOldSeaDog]

That much's obvious, don't think anybody is naive enough to listen.

(What's with all my details on your post?)

[salsaboy]

Check ur inbox tomorrow lunchtime then... Apparently?!

[assymetricdrift]

Well, that was worth the wait...

It's always raining on us from a great height... Hang on - that's not rain!

Big no from me.

[MoonCake]

Well that makes pretty poor reading....That'll be a no then...

[FlyingTinCans]

Am I right in thinking that it will soon be a legal requirement for airlines to include your FDA in your Holiday Pay anyway?

Thought there was a court case somewhere in europe where this was agreed?

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Thats a negative from me!! Especially as i've just found found how many extra routes plus assest of the turbo fan type my base is due to get for the summer. The same hours/sectors/duties as an orange driver........but with a damn less pay! Now did i read thay KY jelly was being issued to all pilots to receive more shafting??

[BluffOldSeaDog]

and I'll have to give back my William & Kate invite 'cos we won't get anything extra for adhoc bank holidays :{

[Calmcavok]

The graph on page 3 is somewhat misleading. When will the company appreciate that annual increments are contractual, related to loyalty and do not form part of a pay award??

[six-sixty]

I like the table comparing our very convolutedly calculated "virtual" raises to EJ/BMI etc. Why compare it at year 4 FO... and more importantly where's the table comparing the actual salaries?

I look forward to the Balpa version to give it a bit of context, but I don't think this represents the step change in package that a lot of us are expecting.

[Burpbot]

Is it a spoof pay deal?

A 2 year real terms pay cut, followed by a 0.5% rise. Less time off and been given backdated pay for what we were supposed to have been paid for years anyway!

Is it just me? Or is this a practical joke????

[turboprop flyer]

Well it has taken just under a year to come up with something similar to what I deposit in less than 5 minutes every morning!!!

Proper p**s take :ugh:

[Serenity]

Earlies to lates should be covered in the new blue sky scheduling.

Holiday pay is being covered (in court?) anyway.

So we are left with a 2% pay rise again. No different from before!
Who knows what will happen in the next 3 yrs.

Only thing I know, carry on like this and I won't be here!!

It a big tick in the NO box I'm afraid.
:ugh:

[mad_bob]

It's a no from me too :ugh:

[BeViRAAM]

I'm surprised the shares haven't taken a dent after reading the pay proposal, I'm sure there will be some sort of industrial action as a result of this kick in the b*lls.

As has already been mentioned this is actually a real terms pay cut not a rise, although I do love that graph. If you isolate the pay award part of the column it looks pathetic in comparison to RPI.

Small aside here, I wonder why the RPI is calculated on those months in particular and whether these differ significantly from the rest of the year.

I could go on a huge rant but,

NO from me will save time.

[Afterglow]

It's a categorical no from me too...

[salsaboy]

... it's "No thanks" from me too...

Although I'm hoping that those who may...


be leaving soon,
be retiring soon or,
just 'fancy' a bit of a lump sum back payment asap


... Don't just say yes like last time

C'mon! Stand up and be counted... vote for the longer term good and the aforementioned lump sum will be bigger!!!

[Resurgam]

"I'm surprised the shares haven't taken a dent after reading the pay proposal"

Possibly because in the past flybe pilots have shown little or no backbone, and have just bent over and taken it - however I think the mood in the crewrooms and on the flightdecks is different this time.

[sk8erboi]

I'm surprised the shares haven't taken a dent after reading the pay proposal, I'm sure there will be some sort of industrial action as a result of this kick in the b*lls.


At a guess I'd say because despite all the bluster on here, nothing will happen and you'll all just bend over and take it?

[Whispering Giant]

Having read BALPA's more detailed report on the Offer - I'm definetly voting NO.
Once again the the company are trying to take the P***. Do they think were stupid !

[Desk-pilot]

This isn't even remotely close to being acceptable and the management really need to wake up and take stock of the ugly mood they've got in their crewrooms here...

The cost of this little lot is estimated at £1.7m between 720 pilots.

The recent Directors flotation bonuses were more than that and divided amongst 5 people.

On top of which do they seriously think they can award themselves 28% pay rises and expect us to take 2% over 2 years???

"History is a great teacher. Now everyone knows that the labor movement did not diminish the strength of the nation but enlarged it. By raising the living standards of millions, labor miraculously created a market for industry and lifted the whole nation to undreamed of levels of production. Those who attack labor forget these simple truths, but history remembers them."
Martin Luther King Jr.

DP

[FlyingTinCans]

The opportunities for 90% of pilots at flybe to move are non-existent at the moment.
I want to move eventually, but with the market as it is the likelihood is I will still be at Flybe in 2012 (and I’m fairly senior), anyone who votes yes to this ridiculous pay deal in the hope they will leave in a few months clearly has a serious lack of intelligence.

[gearupflapsupshutup]

So the red-ringed boy and girls are also poising out big time! Same salary for last decade almost!

[salsaboy]

I recently had a discussion with a PBM and TRE about this offer... I soon realised they were trying to sell it to me. They weren't listening to my side and seemed like they were reading a brief to me.
The arguments were weak, but they actually seemed to believe it all!
I hope our weaker-willed colleagues don't fall for it.

[flyingbed]

In the current economic situation it is probably all that can be expected.

The payment of holiday pay is subject to an action currently in the European court, which is ongoing and no judgment as yet. That the company will now include this unilaterally is good.

Lates to earlies will be gone in one fell swoop for the larger bases,
the smaller bases maybe not as good, but 50% is still good.

The problem for the naysayers is what happens next, this is the
companies final offer, there will be no further negotiation.
Remember we are over crewed, if the company wanted they could cut back on crew numbers.

Its a 3 year deal, when the next negotiations start in 3 years time we will be a mainly jet airline and so can seek a better deal then, now is not the time to do that.

The sensible and practical vote is yes.

[salsaboy]

Yep, that was about it.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Classic! 1st post, just joined the forum and the company line to the letter

[steviedash]

Flyingbed...are you JF in disguise?! :hmm:

[Burpbot]

Flyingbed! I think I know who you are!

AND NO LATES TO EARLIES WILL NOT DISSAPEAR OVERNIGHT!

They state final offer, but would be commercial suicide if it really is!

NEVER EVER Take the first offer!!!! Unless its fair! I hope people vote for what they think is fair!

O and read the small print, next negotiation 2016, read 2018!!!!

[TurboPropTrash]

Flyingbed,

Lets be clear about the reality of what we being asked to commit to. The new scheduling agreement would be a 5 year deal, not 3. The chances of it remaining fit for purpose in that timescale are remote, especially given the pending changes in FTL’s. We will be voting on a single package linked to both pay and scheduling. Consequently we will be making a significantly longer and riskier commitment than your post suggests.

[largegeorgejones]

I agree with all the points listed above. I think anyone with a brain can see that this is a half hearted offer from the company, which by the way was to be expected. Jim doesn't want to spend money if he doesn't have to. No business man would. Always start bartering at a low level. Everyone knows that. Low costs makes a lean mean money making machine which is the goal. It isn't good enough thou. They can afford to do more for us and we would not be unreasonable to ask for it given the companies success, comparable industry standards and fair remuneration for what we do (the principal of the matter). Anybody voting FOR this is quite simply mental! It is a poor offer and as usual full of untruths or rather cleverly worded/constructed figures to hide the inadequacies of the offer, in short, trying to pull the wool over our eyes. So in the spirit of bartering we must decline and be prepared to walk away.

So what can WE do about this to ensure that everyone with BALPA voting rights in Flybe sees the offer for what it is?

As BALPA say, the only way we will achieve anything more from the company is by "demonstrating solid industrial strength". I suggest we all spread the word at work and share the opinions voiced here in the cockpit. Why not actively point people to this thread? We all have i phones (other types of smart phones will do too!) to use on turn arounds to show people this stuff!! All thoughts are on here and I think this gives a fair representation of the offer.

Remember the other important points to pass on:

The company is renowned for holding out till the very last hour in any negotiations. They won't budge until they see that they are backed into a corner. This has been proved time and time again.

You have nothing to loose by endorsing any industrial action. NOTHING! You will still get a command, you will still be able to get anther job, you will still be treated in exactly the same way by the likes of management, rostering and crewing.

One last thing. Jim if you are reading this, look after us and remunerate us to an acceptable level and engage in a program of improving our lifestyle, we will reward you in positive advertising to friends family and others in the industry, high levels of customer service for those that pay all our wages, as much fuel saving as you desire, pride in our company and work, goodwill in getting the job done and a happy environment. If you do not we will all loose.

[sk8erboi]

One last thing. Jim if you are reading this, look after us and remunerate us to an acceptable level and engage in a program of improving our lifestyle, we will reward you in positive advertising to friends family and others in the industry, high levels of customer service for those that pay all our wages, as much fuel saving as you desire, pride in our company and work, goodwill in getting the job done and a happy environment. If you do not we will all loose

Great bargaining techiques now guys. Beg the management over the web.!!!!!! They treat you like :mad: normally and you all take it but that will fix it!

[six-sixty]

Ok, parking the pay issue and the smoke and mirrors/spin about fixing lates/earlies, everyone needs to know that accepting this and locking in the scheduling agreement for 5 years will mean when/if Subpart Q comes is implemented, THE COMPANY CAN MAKE US WORK 40% HARDER DAILY AND NOT HAVE TO PAY US A PENNY FOR IT. Thinks about how tired you are in the summer anyway. Imagine that with 7.5 hours min rest added in. If anyone thinks the company aren't salivating over this then they are stupid and naiive. There won't be a damned thing we can do about it, because some guys decided they really needed a £600 (before tax) holiday pay bribe, which they'll probably have to give us anyway.

Flyingbed, I don't think the dark sinister hints at redundancy that have kept us heads bowed till now will wash much anymore. If we're overcrewed now it's because we're needed for expansion plans. Flybe wouldn't carry extra fat just to be kind to us, I have seen no evidence of such altruism at this company! A redundancy program would be costly in itself. To be honest if things carry on going the way they are and the industry changes this job the way they want to then I'll be getting out anyway, and I'm not the only one. The risk/responsibility/reward ratios are too high already.

[doodle2]

sk8erboi,

your anti flybe crew rhetoric continues unabated.

Perhaps you're a little bitter in Loganair following the franchise agreement?

Never mind, you can always watch the E195 from your flightdeck at your ABZ base whilst composing your next anti flybe post.................

Jealous??
:mad:

[Resurgam]

flyingbed your response is typical of flybe - draw things out and string things along so nothing ever happens.

Three years ago the time to make improvements was now, now it's three years from now, in three years it'll be three years from then - jam tomorrow, but in flybe tomorrow never comes - so I say strike now for jam today!

[doodle2]

Flyingbed,

have you nothing better to do in Flight Ops then post on here?
Is that how Flight Ops managers are earning their recent 9% pay rise??

If the company is carrying any extra crew, it is because it knows that it will lose a lot of pilots as soon as the upturn arrives. The company cannot afford to lose pilots - extra fat in the system now will allow flights to be crewed (via nightstops if necessary) when the pilot resignations begin.

[doodle2]

Six-sixty:

When/if Subpart Q comes is implemented, THE COMPANY CAN MAKE US WORK 40% HARDER DAILY AND NOT HAVE TO PAY US A PENNY FOR IT. Thinks about how tired you are in the summer anyway. Imagine that with 7.5 hours min rest added in. If anyone thinks the company aren't salivating over this then they are stupid and naiive. There won't be a damned thing we can do about it, because some guys decided they really needed a £600 (before tax) holiday pay bribe, which they'll probably have to give us anyway.

EXACTLY RIGHT!!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Doodle

I'd worry about EASA FTL when it arrives mate, i waited for sub part Q for donkeys years, more meetings in BRU than i've had hot dinners, loads of whining pilots - what happend - zilch.
Yes EASA has more relaxed limits but your SMS/FRMS/Union will in theory pick it up should EASA FTL ever happen. Yeah a few rogue airlines will do their best to interpret it in their own way and flogg their pilots to death but i suspect they won't be UK Airlines (sorry G reg). The 2 worst rules in CAP371 are the early / late rules and factorisation on long haul. Ezy have proved that consecutive earlies are better than early/late mixes (compenstated by days off and protected by FRMS). Yeah you chaps / chapesses might not like it but it's what happens in the street from check in staff, to the milkman to commuters going to work every day.

[Wizards Beard]

Crap!!!

It's a NO from me im afraid James.....sorry!!

:ugh::ugh::=:=:ugh::ugh:

[Big_Picture]

I'll be adding my name to the long list of no's. I find it amazing that anyone could even consider this as a good deal. There are a few about in both the "yes" and "not sure" camps. I'll be asking them to have a good hard look at it and understand how little is set in stone and how many caveats have been written in.

A massive thanks to the CC on the hard work so far and I don't expect this process has ever been easy, but I am wondering why this is even going to a vote considering the results of the consultation document? I just hope BALPA members vote as strongly as the consultation suggests they will that we can hold our collective nerve.

Finally I was rather surprised at the level of cynicism employed in writing the company newsletter on the subject. Good points cherry-picked with the bad completely omited, massaging of figures and just far too much spin. I expected it to put the deal forward in as good a light as possible but it was at best misleading and at worse lying.

[dv8]

I not only drew a line in the sand, I crossed it. (And we have plenty of sand here) and got a 32% pay rise.
Add my virtual No vote too
Wishing you all the luck Don't let them grind you down

[flyingcamel]

This offer makes my bowels weep. I shed brown tears for us all. The weals on my back, under my eyes and all over my bank account all dictate a 'no' from me too.

And nowhere for us poor Windmill drivers to go. :{

[Serenity]

So IAG (BA and Iberia) have a list of a dozen other airlines that they are looking to buy for the group.

What chance Flybe management are keeping expenditure as low as possible, so as to look as a good buy???

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Serenity - as I've said before, please god no!

[flyingbed]

I think we all need to calm down. Why so much vitriol?
We are well paid for flying turbo props, have a look at Loganair
or Eastern, we are well above their rates. We are not easyjet,
if you want easyjet salaries then do as JA did and join them!
But I would go as far as to say our culture is far better than
what you will find in the orange order.
If I can just comment on those who think we should get the
same as the directors, well that is a red herring. And don't
believe all the hogwash you hear about directors salaries/
share options.
Anyway, I digress, it is up to the Balpa members (in itself
unfair as not the full workforce), but be sure you understand
what you will be unleashing should you vote against. This
has dragged on long enough, put an end to it now and regroup
in 2 years time when the economy is on the up and a much
better deal will ensue.
I commend the motion to the house.

[SmilingKnifed]

We'll look less of a good buy with a workforce wracked with industrial action!

As to the offer, if you put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. A big no from me.

[Desk-pilot]

You mean you don't want to be taken over by BA whose pilots are amongst the best treated, best paid and most respected of any in the world - bring it on!!

Anyway, at least the CEO wage bill would be lower if we had Willie Walsh running the show - I mean he earns less than JF for a start!

DP

[assymetricdrift]

flyingbed, as much as I respect your views on the situation, it still doesn't work for me.

I think it's become intractable now - if we, as the pilot workforce, stand down, then we will show to the company that they can do anything that they want to with us - which is what we have done before. If we stand our ground and show, just for once, that we are not prepared to take this anymore, then it might have the desired impact.

Whichever way you look at it, I personally believe it's high time we stood up for ourselves. We might not be badly paid for a turboprop job, but try telling that to a paypoint zero FO who has a family to look after, is losing £700 of his paycheck to loan repayment, and has a take home income of £1400-£1500 a month.

I believe it's the wrong deal, and will vote no to it. Equally though, I believe it's important to show the company that we're not prepared to take this shafting anymore.

[Calmcavok]

Flyingbed: We are well paid for flying turbo props

Up to 140 E-Jets are coming. The jet salary is crap.

I don't think anybody has suggested we get paid the same as a director, nor a 28% payrise. However, if there is that much margin available in the business, do you not think that even a minimum of RPI is achievable??

JA is at Emirates.

[Whispering Giant]

Ballot forms are now out !

[Coffin Corner]

Letter opened, ballot paper picked up, ballot paper marked, ballot paper sealed in envelope.

Took me 32 seconds

[turboprop flyer]

I suggest folks that if you happen to come across management in the crew rooms on a damage limitation exercise you just give them a wide berth and do not even engage in conversation. Just a polite good morning/afternoon/evening and make the decision for the ballot of your own accord.
Management are well versed in the art of persuasion and you could quite easily get confused about your own opinions. Read the proposal carefully and X marks the box.
My paper is firing it's way back already, suffice to say it did not take long!!!!
Fly safely guys :ok:

[Nubboy]

Having been in similar situations in the past, I know how unpleasant it is when reasonable people feel forced into such a ballot. Good luck and as the man said, above all, fly safely.