Industrial Action at Flybe?

[Shadow Walker]

guys
for goodness sake .................. this thread is going the wrong way .Talking about other places to fly and the amount of money you can earn . Shame on everyone !! Go and talk about that elsewhere. People are leaving and ive heard 5 "E first officers " have handed in there notice and are going to gulf air. The company hinted on redundancies when responding to this dispute, and now are looking in the flybe holding pool for more pilots !! Who are gullible and who are now taking the p*ss . Its so obvious now what has to happen !!!

[Serenity]

Aware of a good 10 off to gulf and several others off to other pastures already. This before other uk doors open and the more that get e jet ratings the more saleable they will become!

I see the recruitment pages have been redone and those still interested have been asked to reapply.
Yes we need to stand and fight for our lives, but I'm afraid the inevitable evacuation will occur once other doors open.
Management know this and I reckon it's another reason why they refuse to pay proper industry rates and improve lifestyle.

[redED]

So much for redundancies, I see online recruitment has started up again - the flybe propaganda machine is crumbling!

[Otto Throttle]

It's starting to look like 2004/2005 all over again. Only now the directors are answerable to the shareholders - which incidentally includes a lot of us.

How long could we tolearate losing 10% of the workforce every month? How robust is our training system to process the new pilots required to make good this shortfall on top of recurrent training? How many flights can we operate without having to pair up N-rated Captains & FOs? How many CatII revals & max cosswind sim exercises will be dropped to shore up the creaking system? How many cancelled flights will that lead to this winter? And how many trainers will hang up their hats on the back of the workload required?

Did the accountants even attempt to factor in the value of pilot goodwill before they gave the board their dubious sums? Looking doubtful.

Who'll give me favourable odds of a substantial change to the make up of the board following our first AGM?

[mad_bob]

All the wet leasing they had to get in. I think at one point we had four on the go at once..

[gearupflapsupshutup]

When can we start bidding again?

[Big_Picture]

Did the accountants even attempt to factor in the value of pilot goodwill before they gave the board their dubious sums? Looking doubtful.

That is one area where the coffers are truly running dry. I for one won't be helping out with refuse-able duties and working days off and I'm a skint FO. I urge all my colleagues to do the same.

[gearupflapsupshutup]

skint here 2 but not selling my soul!
everybody should do the same...
I heard some F/Os off to Greece again, they are crazy the company is making loads of money off them.

[SmilingKnifed]

Yeah, running off to the sun to be treated like grown ups and collect extra allowances. They must need their heads looking at. :rolleyes:

[superdash]

gearupsflapsupshutup You must also be CRAZY your based in the uk flying the dash for peanuts the company is expoliting you!

[turbowhat]

Crazy for going away, to make some decent money, have a relaxed life style, fly with captains who have the competency to actually fly the aircraft rather than sit there ****ting themselves any time the autopilots not engaged!

Idiots...

[Knee Trembler]

@turbowhat

You might want to start showing a little more respect to your colleagues and grow up a bit. The world looks very different from the left seat and one of the things that makes for a hard day is flying with someone like you who wants all the fun but takes no responsibility.

[gearupflapsupshutup]

Exploiting? Yes if you volunteer to go to Greece than that's true about exploiting. Why do you not apply to OA? You like it there? I heard about there non excisting scheduling agreement and all, thats exploiting!

I am not agreeing life is good at Flybe. I am Sick and tired of another 1.5 day weekend which wasn't a Saturday and Sunday for me (keep getting rdo's denied). Also had enough of A/p disconnects with no consideration/brief either.

Are things different on the jet? I doubt it!
Let me fill out another application form....

[assymetricdrift]

It's getting a little bit "feline" in here at the moment.

At the end of the day - re - hand flying and autopilot - we live in a culture where FDM and fear of our jobs dictates how we do our jobs. I can understand why some people aren't overly happy doing visual approaches - especially if it's the first time that they have flown together. Equally, I think that the hand flying is a good thing to practice on a regular basis. It is good to knock out the autopilo tand actually fly... but at the end of the day, turbowhats comment goes the other way too - if he was the Captain, then it's licence on the wire, and if there was an incident on the approach that they got snagged for, then it would be both of them who come into trouble.

Granted, if I'm honest, I know of one or two people who really do not like it if the autopilot is out though. However, the work around is quite simple - you don't do it until minima and accept that you're not going to hand fly for the day. It's no problem - we've got many days of flying this junk heap around, and there will be another time.

As for FOs being exploited in Greece... every tiny bloody thing this company does borders on exploitation anyway. See:

1/ Smart pensions (Opt out, but if we don't hear from you, you're in) - and also the "We'll make the great saving, but initially, you will get none of it at all and it will line our bloody pockets instead". Now, I believe the company have agreed on 50% coming back to us. But I still believe this to be illegal, or questionable at the least.

2/ BSB - need I say more? It erases the need for a disruption payment to be paid to crew, by getting others from other bases to cover.

3/ Our pay. Well below industry rates for the aircraft we operate

4/ Their pay. Yes, it is a "us and them" situation at the moment. They get richer, we get poorer.

5/ The length of our days/crew utilisation. 11:30 duty day anyone?

6/ Our duty pay. Pathetic.

7/ Our crew food. Cheap to produce, about as healthy as what a dog eats.

8/ Greece. The FOs have gone out there for all the right reasons - experience, money etc... and fair play to them. It is hard work, and it is demanding, but equally the rewards are worth it. I would love more money though to come back to the FOs and Capts who were out there.

9/ They pray on our fear. Redundancies. Fleet reductions. FDM monitoring and disciplinary action due to small errors.

10/ Pooling the wool over our eyes. Jim French's pay review, wasn't a pay review. It was giving him a new contract. That 2% pay rise... well that included your annual increments so that makes 0.3%, we've got no plans to float... oh dear, look what happened now, there are no plans to replace the Dash...

... I could go on.

My point is that quite simply, rather than point your fingers at your colleagues and end up shouting at each other over issues that are fundamental to CRM (each others comfort zone), then really, we should be getting more pissed off with the company for the fact that they treat us like we still have dummies in our mouth.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Are things different on the jet?

They were...until I left anyway;)

[G-AWZK]

Just curious; when was the last time that BALPA actually had the balls to call a strike and follow through with the threat?

[gearupflapsupshutup]

BAplane, BA people?

[six-sixty]

that's the wrong question. BALPA wouldn't - and couldn't "call for a strike". What they can do is ballot the membership and see if THEY do. The CC are the mouthpiece of the collective members wishes.

When did it happen last? Dunno, but I think Virgin are being balloted on it at the moment. Strikes are enormously expensive for both sides, and management normally either have "right" on their side, or they don't. If they don't, and expensive IA occurs which could have been avoided, then there will be v.angry shareholders to justify it to. If a lot of reasonable people think the workers are being outrageous (eg BA cabin crew?) then the managers will generally have more support for not backing down.

[SmilingKnifed]

I agree with Assy Drift that we all need to calm down a little and look at who the real villains are. Dash vs Jet, LHS vs RHS , Greek loanees etc does nothing but play into the hands of the real villains of the piece. We're all flybe pilots and we all want an improvement in our lot in life

We can argue we're all being exploited to various degrees. I agree some guys were hugely exploited on the Olympic contract, they got stung for wedding costs! :eek:

[BluffOldSeaDog]

You've nobody to blame ;)

[bullet190]

SmilingKnifed, well said.

Management love it when we fight among ourselves, I have no doubt they have been stirring up the Jet V Prop thing for quite a few years now and the surprising thing is that many pilots take the bait and have a dig. All these idiots are doing is helping management keep wages down.

Stop fighting among yourselves and go after the real prize......because at the moment management are helping themselves to a big slice of the cake while the rest are complaining about how comfortable their chairs are. :rolleyes:

[salsaboy]

"wedding costs"?
What are you talking about?!

[Homer_J]

Does anyone think the news about Virgin and Aer Lingus both balloting for, or threatening strike action will have any effect on the negotiations. My guess would be that it all depends on the press coverage, and the public reaction.

[Love_joy]

How much further down the negotiation line are VS and EI?

Are we far behind them? I suspect its a short process from ACAS to ballot for IA.

[assymetricdrift]

ACAS tomorrow and the day after isn't it?

Maybe we will see something early into next week to give an idea as to what, if anything, has been sorted out.

[HidekiTojo]

I think the tables have actually turned for us as the longer this is now stretched out the better. People are leaving more will follow, things are picking up around Flybe, Jets are arriving, summer is here, middle east is hovering up pilots from Easyjet, Jet2, Aer Lingus etc etc

Whose betting we will all still be flat out come winter....

[SmilingKnifed]

Interesting that EZY management just offered a very public olive branch to their pilot workforce too (basically saying they'd taken their guys for granted). Will Mr Strong still be so quick to compare our deal to EZY's now?

Salsa, sorry mate, bit of an in joke! 3 F/Os are marrying Greek girls as a result of the Olympic contract.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Well, it will. When they're only left with a bunch of hundred hour MPL's.

[salsaboy]

Cheers SK...
I knew about one of them, but THREE?! LMAO

[Flightlevel001]

Thats ACAS unable to help then...

[Coffin Corner]

Get your strike hats on people and dig in.

[VIRGA]

Ironic when you look at who's who in the zoo....

[turbowhat]

Well it looks like after well over a year we have finally got to the stage where we can flex some muscle and show the company that they need pilots to fly there aircraft.

I'm waiting to see what balpa ballot, the company have been trying to split is for ages, let's do it now, capt strike for a few days then F/O's for a few more. Not sure if that legal but would be a great way to have the maximum effect on the operation.

It's been a long time coming let's make it obvious that we mean business, work to rule, withdrawal of labour, refusal to accept WDO.

It's simple economics, make the strike more expensive than than the paydeal and we win.

Burning tires at the ready.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

ACAS useless, well that's a surprise:rolleyes: Possibly not a bad thing though.

Now, it's entirely up to you lot to demonstrate just how necessary you are to the future of the airline. It is also up to you to demonstrate just how expensive it'll be if they piss you off again. Certainly more than a measly 0.3% pay rise.

No more pathetic pay and scheduling offers. No more scare tactics.

It's not as if Flybe are short of cash is it? They just don't want you to have it, it's as simple as that.

Demand what you are worth. If you don't get it, they don't get you.

[Serenity]

So the share price plunged on the financial news!

How low will it go with a ballot for industrial action now on the horizon??

Does Flybe need a damn good shake up at the top??

[AA5-A]

Does this mean we're now on work to rule?

[assymetricdrift]

I think we all already knew that this would happen.

What I'm worried about is people not putting their money where their mouth is and actually voting against the strike.

The company won't blink until 23:59:59 and we all have to stay strong on this, but they will dread the thought of Industrial Action.

[G-SPOTs Lost]

Just a thought chaps, Im in GA and probably my salary is somewhere between that of a Dash8 and The EJet Skipper.

We got 2.5% in April and my take home has gone down by £8....

[salsaboy]

What I'm worried about is people putting their money where their mouth is and actually voting for the strike.

Are you worried that people won't vote for IA?
Or that they will?!

[SmilingKnifed]

CC, the point G-SPOT is trying to make is that even with 3.5%, he's still got less money in his pocket. Our 0.3% is even worse. Stating the blindingly obvious in both cases I know, but it's worth reminding ourselves that while we're scraping by, this greasy cabal of spivs are lining their pockets and smearing us as the bad guys.

I want to see this company do well, but I and plenty like me are so up for this fight, it'll shock the sub-used car salesmen in management when they finally step into the ring.

They have sown the wind...

[assymetricdrift]

Good spot Salsaboy...

What I meant is that I'm worried that people WON'T vote for Industrial Action, having got this far down the line now.

I'll be on the picket line. I equally think we should all buy a few shares in this company and go to the AGM as a group.

That'd give the board some food for thought.

[Coffin Corner]

Thanks for clearing that up SmilingKnifed.

G-SPOT, sorry I wasn't being facetious, I genuinely didn't see the relevance. Maybe I've had too long a week or something ;)

Assy - make no mistake, I'll see you on the picket line, time to source a sandwich bar and snack van nearby :ok:

[SmilingKnifed]

Which is where SK's Burgers comes in!

I know the van needs a lick of paint, but I just got a job lot of salad from some Spanish geezer at BHD! :ok:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b33/Jenxy/00000000toomuch.jpg

[turbowhat]

SK always loved some Spanish cucumber.:E

[SmilingKnifed]

How very dare you! ;)

The current slogan is,

'Low cost, but not at my cost.'

[Serenity]

"it's not even low cost, at our employees cost"

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

I think DJ down in EXT and his 'hanger burger' have some competition! :ok:

[Snigs]

I never was a "Union" man in my previous life, but I do feel in this situation that to redress the balance in T's & C's we all must talk with one voice, and stop bickering amongst ourselves.

I read a message as I checked out last night that "No result at ACAS, management and BALPA are now considering their position" (paraphrasing). I say, if you're not already doing so, lets get on the BALPA website message boards and let them know unequivocally how strong the feeling is throughout the pilot workforce!

[six-sixty]

I think most of us are bored by now of talking/e-board ranting. What hasn't been said yet? That's all done now. Time to let our Hilton biros do the talking. I just hope Balpa catch the first post Monday.

[bullet190]

ACAS not worked, nothing else for it. It will be yes to IA from me.

[Cumulo Calvus]

ACAS not worked, nothing else for it. It will be yes to IA from me.

And me.....................

[Big_Picture]

Count me in to tick the yes box............

No more faffing please, due process is complete.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Feel let down and depressed by management's attitude so it'll be a YES here to

[JliderPilot]

As someone who is considering joining FlyBe in the not too distant future, what is wrong with the t&c's? I have to say I do not know the detail of your shift patterns or previous pay deals.

[Anodyne]

All other reasonable avenues have now been explored, so BALPA lets stop messing about and get the strike ballot out - one more in the YES box from me!

[Desk-pilot]

Yes to strike from me too.

In response to the poster who asked what's wrong with Flybe T&C's it's hard to know where to start:

Roster pattern 5x4 sector days on, finish 22.30 Friday night, Sat+Sun off but start work 06.00 Monday, thus unlike an office worker you don't get Friday night because you're working and you don't get Sunday night because you ought to go to bed at 20.00-21.00 to get up at 04.00am on Monday morning for your early shift. Now most of us don't go to bed at 20.00, we go to bed at 22.00 or 23.00 to try and have a half decent weekend and just fly the aeroplanes around on Monday morning with 4-5 hours sleep. I'm not sure that ANY other airline in civilised world has such a brutally short weekend. Wanna go away to visit friends/relatives/take the missus to Paris for a weekend? - forget it the weekend is too short... The resulting fatigue from this relentless rostering practice in the busiest bases causes people to feel utterly burnt out and genuinely fatigued.

Basic pay - For both Captains and F/O's is way below the market rate for other comparable airlines such as Air Berlin/BMIbaby etc - Expect to be earning £35k after becoming SFO and working for 5 years as an airline pilot (including Flight pay) - that's £10k a year less than a train driver starts on... Expect to be paid as a Captain what a good company pays its F/O's - £55k.

Flight duty pay is paid at £1.91 an hour less tax, no sector pay - hasn't changed in years. So if you're a Captain and taxed at 40% and you work an extra three hours doing two extra sectors you'll earn £1.91x3hrs=£5.73-40% tax - about £3 for three hours extra work and two extra sectors - it's way less than most paper rounds pay schoolboys per hour and beyond a joke.

The crew food is utterly appalling and is sourced from suppliers who seem to specialise in almost out of date fat laden muffins, sandwiches with the worst quality ingredients - cold cheap sausage with ketchup and mayonnaise anyone? - or maybe you'd like the egg florentine - 2 day old egg mayonnaise with cheap cheddar stirred into it to add a strange piquancy to the flavour.

As a first job it's obviously better than nothing and the training is genuinely very good and you will fly with some really nice people. The flying is fun by airline standards - a good mix of fairly short routes to keep the interest level high and the skill levels up. Flybe is a company that could be a really good place to be if the management wished to make it so - it's just a shame they don't.

DP

[Megaton]

Desk-pilot

Doesn't sound like anything has changed whatsoever since I left after a short stint a few years. Good people to fly with, decent training and almost everything else was rubbish. I voted with my feet. Good luck guys.

[Farfrompuken]

Surely the flip-side is that ever other weekend you'll get a long one off when you go from earlies to lates? Or is it more complex than that?

[Otto Throttle]

Well, here we go then.

Settling the dispute for the 3 year period in question at the relatively modest levels of improvement needed to pacify a majority of crews would cost what? Another couple of million? An amount entirely within the company's control and one which can be budgeted for accordingly.

Industrial action for an unspecified period of time involving a completely unpredictable level of disruption and damage to the Flybe brand. What cost here? I would wager an amount similar to the volcanic disruption of last year and the longer it goes on, the more militant the workers become and the higher the eventual cost of settlement. Completely out of the company's control.

I used to think we had some very smart people at the top, and they were let down by the managers that run the day to day operation, but now I'm really not so sure.

Regardless what happens here, I'll be at the AGM on 8 September and I intend to see that the big institutional investors get to hear some very direct and frank feedback to the board on how this business actually runs and the risks to future expansion that the directors are taking with their tight-fisted and short-sighted approach to the current operation.

On the bright side, just think what price the shares will be when the company eventually launches our sharesave scheme. Sub £1 anyone?

[Facelookbovvered]

Who is your BALPA PN? is it still KB? if so there is no chance of a strike she couldn't organise a p**s up in brewery.

[Farfrompuken]

CC,

I was under the impression that you'd do a week of earlies then the next week would be lates and so on. So they mix shifts within your working week? Nice!!

Sadly it's an employers market at the moment; I do hope that changes soon for everybody's sake.

[Cumulo Calvus]

CC has it bang on with his excellent posts.

In terms of the people you get to go work with, I'd say this company is hard to beat. But that's partly due now to the fact that everytime I jump into my seat on the flightdeck me and the other guy or gal talk about nothing but the cretins at the top and now middle of this company and how they have systematically and knowingly destroyed the spirit and resolve of it's most valuable assets. That's above FL 150 of course - I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm none standard and call me to Exeter for a school boy bollocking.

I have not met one colleague on the flight deck in my base who isn't going to vote for strike action and actually do it. I really hope it's the same everywhere else.

The management are complete idiots and they have failed in their duty to this company and it's staff. And by god, they are going to get what's coming to them now - off their pilots and then the shareholders. Bye bye Jim. You had your chance, and you've buggered it big time mate.

[six-sixty]

and everyone, please watch your backs. At least one v.senior management pilot has been heard wanting to sack everyone who voted No in the lead in to this, and I bet there's more. Obviously you can't do that, but I wouldn't want to get him in the sim if I were sticking my neck out on the non-anonymous boards. Added to the summary execution/check-your-six culture we're already got, and you've all the ingredients for a real pleasant summer coming up...

[superdash]

Come on you can do better than that be more specific chap....

[Cumulo Calvus]

I wouldn't put it past this company to be stupid enough to sack around 75% of it's pilot workforce.......:}

[jersey145]

Bye bye Jim. You had your chance, and you've buggered it big time mate.

Not a bad run for a former BCAL load controller. Time for him to go and take strong love with him!



Surely the flip-side is that ever other weekend you'll get a long one off when you go from earlies to lates? Or is it more complex than that?


HA HA HA!!! oh that really is a good one! oooohhh.............but really. You will only ever EVER get 8 days off a month. Unless you have leave. Which must piss this chap right off as we are over paid and under worked as it is according to him.

My last roster was bang on limits for FTL and duty. Genuine feeling of fatigue on last few days (I am young so lasted longer than some) 6 on 2 off 6 on 3 off etc etc min rest the lot! Phoned in 'fatigued' and got sectioned to a mental health facility! well thats how i felt it was handled! read out a dictionary def of fatigued and told there was no way i could be as i didnt fit into the definition!!!!! Oh and it was impossible to be fatigued as the roster was 'legal'!!!! Asked to be sent asap to company doc in brum. They have no choice but to comply, but in a scathing sort of way they arranged it. Oh and said i should hire car!! Fatigued and hire car!!!!!!!!TITS!

FATIGUE is an illegal word in Flybe. It would appear to be gross misconduct to utter it on compant time.

So much for duty of care. Over the last winter I had the misfortune to be stuck abroad on duty due tech (4 times) and Wx (2 times). Some from GLA were far worse off than moi! On all but one of those times, where we happened to be at a flybe base, crewing washed their hands of us! It took the missus back home to find and book a hotel for us. So much for duty of care! they could not have given less of a crap.

Can't wait to be on the picket line! At least it will be summer! But i'd be happy to be on it in the winter! The managment have dug their heads in the sand and really don't think there is an issue, or any bad feeling. Some of the PBMs think the same! nutters! it is staring them right in the face! thats the flying club airline mentality for you. Totally clueless and out of touch.

[HidekiTojo]

Jersey145 Your spot on. To quote a certain flight safety manager "Fatigue is NOT a flight safety issue" - Go figure. The more he was questioned the more irrate he became. Definitely a naughty word down in EXT.

[Serenity]

Last time I wanted to go fatigued, after a 15 hour day then minimum rest, crewing refused to accept it, said I had to phone duty management pilot, this at 2300!!!!!

Current monthly hours bouncing off the max!!
All for 20+ grand a year less than a similar Easyjet pilot and they get more than 2 days off in a row!!

[stuckgear]

To quote a certain flight safety manager "Fatigue is NOT a flight safety issue" - Go figure. The more he was questioned the more irrate he became.


perhaps he's fatigued :hmm:

[bullet190]

As they say "actions speak louder than words" which is why I don't read any of the dribble written by our chief pilot any more. :ugh:

[Coffin Corner]

and everyone, please watch your backs. At least one v.senior management pilot has been heard wanting to sack everyone who voted No in the lead in to this, and I bet there's more. Obviously you can't do that, but I wouldn't want to get him in the sim if I were sticking my neck out on the non-anonymous boards. Added to the summary execution/check-your-six culture we're already got, and you've all the ingredients for a real pleasant summer coming up...

If this happens then it is totally illegal. If anyone notices any irregular sim details and/or false treatment then I think the CAA need to be informed. Monitor closely people.

[Burpbot]

I know EXT monitor this site, so would like to add food for thought.

After been more than reasonable the pilot work force has now found itself in a position where regardless of personal opinion WE have been left with no other choice but to vote yes to IA! I have no wish to strike however if we vote anything but yes then bye bye scheduling agreement for what its worth, and bye bye to ever seeing a pay rise again!

Come on EXT sort it out before you flush the company down the pan!

[RoyHudd]

Did my time in JEA, Exeter folk are bumpkins, but greedy bumpkins. A strike is likely according to my buddies still there. Tired and underpaid seem to be the keywords, and CC echo them. Sort yourselves out, French et al!

[judge11]

I wish you every success with this struggle and you must see this through as the ramifications of your actions will extend beyond flybe. It will send a long overdue message to 'airline managment' in the UK that the pilot workforce is an essential element in any company and should be treated, not preferentially, but with the respect and courtesy afforded to the other executives in the company. It should also make it crystal clear that, as a group, it is no longer prepared to accept exploitative pay and scheduling agreements imposed upon them.

Why any management wants to deliberately and constantly antagonise its (arguably) most valuable asset is beyond me. Stick to your guns!

[windypops]

A bit of devils advocate here, but do you think the management are thinking that with the number of SFO's within, and the number of hungry newbies out there that they are practically bullet proof?

Basically pi22 everyone off, many quit, but many of the SFO's can sense command so decide to stick it out to get some command hours, open the tap for newbies. Rinse and repeat.

[Flightlevel001]

Well to be honest, its too late now. The ballot papers will be out soon no doubt and we will have no choice but to vote for a strike (hopefully with a far greater landslide than before). Don't be afraid to do this people, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Once the dates for a strike have been given, the company will no doubt trot out some kind of "we don't negotiate with terrorists" line and start playing with the media. We shall counter attack with the plethora of ammunition in our arsenal... The company will then capitulate at the 11th hour (it probably never planned to allow a strike to happen in the first place).

Then where will that leave us, yes we will have got what we wanted but can you imagine the atmosphere after that? Oh what a wonderful place it will be to work then!

Irreversible damage has already been done regardless of the final settlement and as has been said before... what a bloody shame...

[Lord Spandex Masher]

It is a shame. Flybe could be so much better.

But just think what it'll feel like to wipe the smug look off the faces of that idiot teenage COO(ck) and the beardy pilot hating loadie with huge egos and massive delusions of grandeur.

After all, they got to where they are on the back of your low salaries. It's time they started to repay the 'favour'.

Don't forget that any damage done to Flybe's reputation, ability and finances is not your fault. The management are in charge, allegedly. They lead the airline down this path and it is up to them to reverse it. End of.

Stick together lads and lasses, it's your last chance.

[flyhigh2fly]

i dont think there are Many sfo waiting for commands. Why get a command on the dash if you can get jet time on the 195 and get a better job somewhere else when the doors start to open? Money? Not really that great on the dash, plus the company pays your "loyalty" all this years to start on pay scale 1 when you move seats!
Great!!!!, don't you just love it?

[HidekiTojo]

I agree, most SFO's are looking to stay on the jet then leave, most of the new skippers have just upgraded for the payrise and are also looking to escape. A few have gone for a command rather than the jet as there is no bond.

[Snigs]

To quote a certain flight safety manager "Fatigue is NOT a flight safety issue" - Go figure. The more he was questioned the more irrate he became.

Just to play devil's advocate, and being very pedantic, but the consequences of fatigue may be a flight safety issue, but not being fatigued itself. If you fly when fatigued and nothing happens then there is no flight safety issue, but if you fly when fatigued, cock up and then site fatigue as the issue then you're in the wrong.

So, simple, don't fly when you're fatigued!

[HidekiTojo]

Snigs you are right and I agree but it was the attitude that surprised me. Safety is king and if there is any hint that the rostering of crew may increase risk then it's a problem more than worthy of the attention of the flight safety department especially after the colgan tragedy. Fatigue is a tricky thing to put your finger on but it exists and is a threat to aviation. Tiredness is the real threat with the current flybe rostering practices. Constantly changing shift patterns can leave for the odd day where you are suitably below par and in the dash this is never a good thing ;)

Easyjet, Ryanair and BA etc all have much better patterns than Flybe.

[AA5-A]

Does anybody know if balpa have sent out, or about to send out any IA ballots? And how long after the ballot can go on IA?

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Nothing so far, then the timescale (assuming similar to BACC debacle) is 3-4weeks for balloting then 28days to name dates then min 7 days notice I believe

[low n' slow]

Stand up for your rights!

This nonsense of "the schedule is sound, you cannot possibly be fatigued, the schedule complied with Subpart Q" is starting to scare me. As if we are alert and fully capable of handling situations whereever we find ourselves in the permitted operational span of Subpart Q.

Whenever a pilot in Europe has the opportunity to go on strike motivated by the FTL's, he/she should, the message has to be driven through. FTL's are limitations and not goals. For a schedule to be laid down according to Subpart Q, a fatigue monitoring programme has to be established for it to be safe. The public needs to be enlightened.

Have a look at this, an excellent and easy to understand summary. Show all your friends:
YouTube - ‪Pilot in-sleep (Plus Minus) [English Version]‬‏

Good luck everyone in FlyBe and elsewhere fighting this fight. We need to be united, not only within our airlines but across aswell! Head down and go for it!

LnS

[Shadow Walker]

Well said dp exactly pionts out exactly how sh..e our t and c really is !!! its a total total farce !!

[Shadow Walker]

Do you know CC , I 100% agree with every sentence ,word and letter you said . I'm pretty sure most people at my base think the same . If we dont follow this through to the end , we are finished and our time at flybe (for me anyway) must come to an end !! Time to move on even it means not flying anymore
We talk about strike at Flybe ??? !! I honestly think the industry as a whole needs to go on strike as a whole . It has become (the best way i can describe it ) is diseased and infected !!!!!!!! Its not a career or a profession anymore ................we get laughed at !!!!!!

Whats happening at Flybe is the tip of the proverbial iceberg

Very very very sad times for all pilots

[arelix]

Been to the Pub .........SW?

[doodle2]

Check your spam folders for the latest Balpa dispatch - dated 08.06 (my copy was in there).
Enlightening reading

[Serenity]

I agree with WW,

Regional bases, home life is still more than limited when rostered 5 or 6 lates straight!
6 day blocks are becoming more and more regular, often with just 2 days off.

pilot numbers are at breaking point, roters are usaully in high 80`s and 90`s (except for a few lucky ones), even part time guys are maxed out.
There will be no redundancies, aircraft may be going, but so too are crew members. many just waiting in the wings for a nice hello from Easyjet or BA.
recruitment will be in full flow soon, courses already running!

current crews are maxed out and shattered.
fed up with manahement spin and crewing taking the p155!!
moral at an all time low.
a quick shout round the crew rooms gets a chorus of agreements when IA is mentioned.

Time for Flybe to sort themselves out and start acting like the proper airline that they want to be and less like a minor regional prop outfit!!

:ugh::ugh:

[Cumulo Calvus]

I don't know why I bother reading the missives that come out from the company anymore. Because they just make even more upset than I am at the moment with this bloody company.

If Jim thinks giving us a proper weekend off with our loved ones is going to kill the 'regional business model' then he should see what having all of his pilots walking out on strike will do it, along with the irreparable damage to staff relations and lasting damage to the brand and customer loyalty.

Just bonkers.

[six-sixty]

and giving us a single day over our miserly industry worst 108 days off would represent a restrictive and inflexible scheduling practice which would kill the model?

Sorry I don't buy it, not with the amount of unused stby. Come on Flybe, if being scrooge is part of your DNA, you can pay either industry bottom pay, or industry bottom lifestyle, not both. One needs to rise to compensate for the other. Surely you must realise that a significant number of people aren't prepared to put up with it anymore. These practices might have been acceptable when we were a small struggling minor player and it was all hands to the pump all the time just to survive. Try as you might there is going to be significant resistance from your workforce if you continue to attempt to roll out this exploitation model on the scale we operate now. This problem isn't going to go away.

[doodle2]

I don't buy the 64 hours not being feasible - just absorb the extra 4 hours with one of the current standby crew.

If regional bases are going to close, they'll close whether or not our conditions improve - but no-one believes that their closure will meet the business model anyway (so it won't happen).

[bullet190]

Jim and his managers are about to learn the hard way that change is needed on their part in order to get through these difficult times.
Ever since I have been with this airline there has been nothing but arrogance and aggression from our management toward pilots.......
"If you don't like it you know where the door is" (Mike Wood)
"If I'm not getting 900 hrs per year out of my pilots I'm not doing my job" (Jim French)
They constantly compare us to office staff and smaller airlines when the moment suits them.
Well, now they seem to be trying it with Jim McAuslan, that same arrogant tone is evident in this letter as it has in previous ones.....somehow though I think Mr McAuslan can see through it. :ok:

[TCASIII]

This is no longer about the pay rise, its all about who is seen to win. The offer that on the table is a fair. How much more does everyone want?
The company council keep changing the goalposts. We have a solution on the table of the resolution of the lates to earlies together with a minimum of 11% max of 12.5% over three years. This also goes on the pension & is compounded year on year. Yes we work hard, yes on occasions the plan changes & we pick up the disruption, together with the disruption payments.
I followed the company council advise on smart pensions all that happened was that I lost £320 pounds a year, my college that I flew with lost £600! How was that good advise? It didn't even pay for the subs!
Its time that the members took a look at what was on offer and stopped following an over exaggerated expectation by the cc. If this isn't grabbed we could potentially end up with nothing! THINK ABOUT IT!!

[TCASIII]

Why did the BALPA Company Council not report back? This is a really fair offer & I would like to have been consulted. There has been real progress made, effecting every base & every pilot. Why were the CC unable to reach a satisfactory conclusion. What do they want? I two will vote for this offer

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I've just heard about the letter you all received today. Two questions for you.

Firstly, the 12/13 year offer had the pay rise as RPI +0.5% but a max of 4.5%. Why? Why would you vote for that? I know why it was offered!

Ok, nobody really knows what inflation is going to be in two years time but why restrict yourselves to a, potential, pay cut? The offers should be a minimum of RPI, full stop.

I hope none of you are forgetting that Frenchy got a 28.5% rise in the year that everybody else had a pay freeze? Don't worry, that's rhetorical;)

Secondly, why is the holiday pay still being used as part of the negotiations?! FFS it is a legal requirement that you get paid holiday pay. The cabin crew do and 35 quid an hour for delays.

[JW411]

It might just help your case on pprune if you could spell asymmetric properly.

[TCASIII]

assymetricdrift, When you joined flybe on the dash 8 you knew what you would earn or was it a surprise? What do you expect to earn? How much do you want the company to pay you?
Yes our wages are less than other airlines but have you not noticed several other airlines are also going down the same route. Pilots wages are getting less relatively. There are only a handful of jobs out there. Its not good but at some point we need to reach agreement. I would prefer flying than end up redundant!
The deal on offer from flybe at the moment exceeds the other airlines.

[HidekiTojo]

TCASIII Give it a rest. The offer from Flybe is poor. Their attitude is inexcusable. We are going on strike. Personally I'd rather work in mcdonalds and have some self respect left than put up with this ****.
No one signed a contract to get paycuts and help a handful of management get very rich. Your arguments are null and void.

[HidekiTojo]

assymetricdrift, When you joined flybe on the dash 8 you knew what you would earn or was it a surprise? What do you expect to earn? How much do you want the company to pay you? No need to be facetious - Yes we all knew what the salary was for a given time frame i.e When I made the decision to join Flybe I knew that the salary was XXX and that the year after it would be XXX now that was it. There was no published pay scale for 2011,2012,2013 etc

Now almost everyone who has a job expects a pay rise annually in line with inflation most also expect a rise to reward loyalty and hard work. Now we as pilots at Flybe are on an incremental scale which I believe is our right we expect this, it's always been there and should remain permanently or until an appropriate alternative is agreed upon.

As pilots we know that bigger airlines with bigger aircraft pay more money. This is a fact. Flybe's pay scales are based on a small airline (see loganair pay ppjn). Flybe has over 700 pilots and approx 60 aircraft. they are no longer a shed sized airline. The directors earn £250-£600,000 per annum basic.

Therefore we as pilots expect our pay to reflect this. Also our colleagues over at Easyjet, Ryanair, Aer Lingus, British Airways, Jet2, Monarch, Virgin, Thomas Cook, and Thompson all earn way more than we do. Now yes they are bigger more profitable airlines so that's only right BUT our pay and lifestyle does not compare as it now should, we should be closer to them. The company are attempting to lower and not improve our t&c's. OK trainers and PBM's don't care as they earn £80k and are where they want to be. The rest of us are not. Most FO's are no in the base they want and are struggling financially. The financial struggle was expected but inflation is making it almost impossible. It needs to be sorted, this is why we have BALPA.

Yes our wages are less than other airlines but have you not noticed several other airlines are also going down the same route. Pilots wages are getting less relatively. There are only a handful of jobs out there. Its not good but at some point we need to reach agreement. I would prefer flying than end up redundant!
The deal on offer from flybe at the moment exceeds the other airlines. Easyjet have just had 4% on basic, 5% on extras. BA have had 4%. Ryanair have had nothing, (they are non union).

I would prefer flying than end up redundant!This attitude will eventually mean you will get paid NOTHING.

[assymetricdrift]

TCAS - I knew what it would be like in Flybe when I joined. I knew my belt would be tight and that I wouldn't be able to afford certain things in life that would make it more comfortable. I knew that I would struggle for the first years, and I did. I lived on a credit card, paid my rent and somehow made the ends meet. At one stage I was payingmore in interest on my credit card than I could actually pay back.

What needs to be considered is that this offer is LOSING us money - it is below RPI and that is how the company work - to minimise the overheads and what is the most expendable one? Crew!

I don't want much - I just want RPI but i'm fed up with small minded ignorant, lying, petty, idiots who take us for fools. RPI will do me fine...

[Burpbot]

TCASIII! If you believe the latest offer on the table as laid out in Jims letter regarding what was put on the table at ACAS. Just hang fire and if you are a BALPA member you will shortly receive an email stating what the offer was. Im told worse than the previous 2 offers! Always read the SMALL print!!

Let us all know when you have read the BALPA com and if you are still thinking its a fair offer???? :D

[SmilingKnifed]

JW411, an utterly meaningless post. If an itinerant s in a username irks you so, might I suggest you become a proofreader and leave us to our discussion.

TCASIII,

Useful idiot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot)

show me one scrap of meaningful evidence that suggests redundancies in the near future. I also fail to see how money being taken from my pocket equates to a fair offer.

To be honest, most of this dispute now transcends pay and rostering and this current peasants' revolt is almost entirely of French and Strong's own making. Many people (naively in my view) were prepared to acquiesce and accept one of the offers, were it not for the arrogant and dishonest methods the company used to try and push them. They truly believe themselves to be smarter than anyone else and that we could never possibly have a. long memories and b. smart (though misspelled) users like assymetricdrift who are capable of dissecting a balance sheet.

Jim, Andy, sadly chaps, when you strip away your Astons and various other trappings, you are a double-chipped load controller and a smarmy college boy who both got lucky with Jack Walker's money and Willy Walsh's desperation. I'd take the money and run if I were you, we've a lot more smarts than you give us credit for.

[assymetricdrift]

My username is based purely on irony - that it was misspelt in one of the textbooks I was using when I was learning to fly.

Of course I know it's spelt incorrectly!

[Serenity]

Management got a 28% pay rise - offered me 2% and that included my annual increment that I'd have recieved anyway =.3%

Jim got a million pound interest free loan to buy another home, its very hard for me to get a mortgage.

How about interest free loans to help us with flying debts??
Just a few cadets get a years break, the rest of us??

Some of us really do struggle to make ends meet at the end of the month!!

Maxed out, worn out and less than average conditions while management help themselves and pat themselves on the back while patronising the rest if us!!

You wonder why we are all p155ed off???? :mad:

[fly-dj]

Yesterday we get told buy the company that we have to many crews and they hint at letting people go then today we all get a message telling us we are probably aware we are quite short of crew. Would we want to work days off.

Whoops, I dont think everybody knows, maybe someone should tell Jim.

It must be nice to run a company that can’t afford to pay its employees an industry standard wage, make an attempt to improve their work life balance or even sort out the lates to earlies issue that those employees have already taken a pay freeze some years ago to pay for. Yet at the same time take a 30%+ bonus and million’s of pound’s of interest free loans!

[Desk-pilot]

It's quite simple really, we want more than 1 night a week to enjoy gigs/dinners out with the trouble and strife or just to chill out with a beer and friends in the pub because guess what Jim - some of us would like to have a life outside Flybe...

We want a salary commensurate with our experience and other operators of similar aircraft. The average year 1 F/O salary of a Q400 driver across various Q400 operators is as follows

Austrian Arrows E37800
Augsberg E36200
Luxair E55200
Air Baltic E34500
Wideroe E52000
Flybe E28275


As can be seen our pay is massively uncompetitive with directly comparable operators and the rosters - finishing 11pm Friday night and having to get up at 4am Monday morning are beyond appalling. The Captains pay compares equally unfavourably.

I've yet to fly with anyone who doesn't intend to support a strike. People have quite literally had enough of the pot noodles, nutri-grain bars for breakfast, the lack of any kind of reasonable lifestyle and the relentless and exhausting barrage of 4 sector days stretching to the horizon with only a one and a half day weekend to break them up. Couple that with pay scales that would humiliate a lorry driver and you have a recipe for a Summer of discontent.

[Piloto2011]

Sorry for going off-topic here but just out of curiosity do Flybe offer reduced hours contracts?

[flyingcamel]

Oh sweet Jesus, there's another can of worms!

[Serenity]

Yes they do but if for example you go 75% you wil work all your 5 days on.
A good 20 - 25 hours per week x4!!!!

A captain will then get a similar salary to a seniorish f/o.

[jersey145]

I would like to thank my PBM for printing off the letter from JF to BALPA. Our toilets at my base were not attended to yesterday and as such we ran out of loo roll. I found the contents of Jim Frsnch's letter most useful to wipe my arse with. Thanks again Jim, you saved me from an emabarrasing moment.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

I hear on the grapevine that JF and his lapdog are going to be visiting bases soon.

What do you think? Repeated verbal diarrhea? Going over the BS that he's already written.

Pleading? Subtle threats? More scare tactics? Maybe a willingness to actually do something about this situation ha ha?

Is it even worth your effort to go and see him? Let the IA thing pan out and let them shove it?

[doodle2]

I support the BALPA advice re approaches from PBMs and now JF: politely refer them to BALPA - that is who they should be negotiating with right now.

[Otto Throttle]

I strongly recommend in the light of current developments that all pilots - BALPA members or not - have a thorough read of the Flybe policy on Harassment & Bullying.

Any attempt by the PBMs or any senior management to intimidate or threaten staff, however subtly, should be met with formal grievances. In the case of a director, this complaint should be sent to a non-executive director. Personally, I would write to all of them, and then ensure the same issue is raised at the Flybe AGM on 8 September.

They don't like it up 'em Captain Mainwaring!

[bullet190]

Is it even worth your effort to go and see him? Let the IA thing pan out and let them shove it?

Totally agree, Jim has had over a year to sort this out and now that we are close to IA all of a sudden he's running around wanting to talk to pilots.
Sorry Jim but it's too late for that, you can now deal with BALPA, I won't be making the effort to see you. :=

[flyingcamel]

Motion seconded.

Ram it.

[Serenity]

Jim may be out and about, but it's the same old rhetoric.

Flybe is unique, that's why you can't compare it to any other company or airline.
Small bases are good.
People roster more efficiently than the computer.
No one is really leaving ( so why bother doing anything)
The dash is more technically unreliable than any ejet or airbus, but it will remain the backbone of Flybe.
He's not bothered about the share price, just wants to run Flybe as a business.
More pay, you'll be lucky.
:ugh:

[widebodyboy]

Evening all. Long-time listener, first-time caller!

I for one can completely understand why BALPA didn't recommend the latest "offer" It's all fur coat and no knickers!

I'm right at the bottom of the pile and, therefore, money is tight. I was phoned the day before yesterday asking me to come in on my first day off. I'd already done six days so that would have been my seventh in a row. I could really use the extra cash but, as this was my first run of three days off in three months, I felt I could use the time off more than I could use the money. Not to mention I was fairly irritated to have been asked to work because they were "desperate" only the day after receiving a letter telling me how lucky I was to have a job when we were selling aircraft but not getting rid of anyone. I frequently work 6 and 2, lates to earlies and I'm knackered. And before anyone says that I knew what I was getting myself into before I signed on the line let me say that I don't think I did know. And really, in all honesty, how many people do know what they're getting themselves into when they're fresh out of the sausage factory, bright eyed, enthusiastic and delighted to be getting the chance to live the "dream"? Feel Like You're Being Exploited? I know I feel like my goodwill is!

[sdryh]

Anybody else notice how bad the rosters are getting. Stby's are almost none existence, and over the last two months I have had two instances where I have been given a 9 day stretch with only 1 day off in the middle. Where is the chance to recover there? Oh, and working days off.

On another note, anybody know what this big announcement is they keep talking about on ART courses?

[gearupflapsupshutup]

Big announcement;
Well dropping the frankfurts does lead in towards a big announcement! Why bother focussing on a world gateway that doesn't work. Paris and Amsterdam are just witin an hours flight reach.
Must have to do with major carrier tie-up. Cityjets airplanes are really old. AF-KLM close to a big deal for new busses.
Next week: Paris Airshow!
Last week: French build ATR72-600 certified by Easa!

[flyingcamel]

Embraer slots have been sold to someone else and we're getting Q400NG's instead.

Forever doomed to be a tractor driver.........

[hapzim]

They can both go out on strike together then Deano777:D

[Blue system]

Question:

FlyBe buying Cimber Sterling?


Regards,

[iggle piggle]

£9000/month basic, 5/3 5/3 roster, yes please.(ppjn)

[doodle2]

Have you heard the rumour where you are? Or are you guessing what might happen?

[Serenity]

So management have done the rounds.
Balpa are going to do the rounds.

When are the IA ballot papers coming out??

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Patience my young apprentice

[Iakovos]

Bill Ash is taking over as General Manager Flight Crew/Head of Crewing and Ops. Then we'd be rogered!

And changing our weekend to 8 hours, which can be reduced to 6 due to "operational disruption".

[Resurgam]

Thank you BOSD - it all makes sense now: Bill, or should I say Darth, Ash is in fact a dark lord of The Sith - this explains everything!

[six-sixty]

So this rumour about the jet options being sold then. Has anyone else heard it or is it just someone causing mischief? If its true then any long term path to an even half way fair salary has just evaporated (along with my hearing) :uhoh:

[Cumulo Calvus]

Management didn't bother coming to my base. We must be one of the ones they're going to close if we dare vote against the company's latest and pitiful attempt to pull the wool over our collective eyes.

[SmilingKnifed]

Calvus, it may have been due to them being fogged in on Fraggle Rock a couple of nights ago. I'm told they were unable to change their tickets despite protestations of, 'don't you know who we are?'

[mad_bob]

Hahahahaha....SK I so hope that is true :E

[Whispering Giant]

They could'nt be bothered to visit there own 'Home' Base crew at EXT either..

[SmilingKnifed]

This late in the game unless I'm specifically rostered to see them, with a DP and appropriate rest period after as per the scheduling agreement, I have no interest in hanging around a crewroom when I don't have to.

[redED]

We only heard of our base visit a day or two before. Could this be to hold off any counter actions by BALPA?

[redED]

Question:

FlyBe buying Cimber Sterling?


Regards,

Google News (http://news.google.co.uk/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=uk&hl=en&q=cimber+sterling+flybe&btnmeta_news_search=Search+News) has suggested flybe have shown an interest, seem to be scowering Europe to find anyone to buy!

[salsaboy]

*yawn*

:zzz:

[BluffOldSeaDog]

waiting waiting, no rumors, BALPA are quite correctly airtight running up to the next meeting next Wednesday

[SmilingKnifed]

I just hope this is a meaningful exercise, based on a few home truths having been told on the base visit and with a view to a full settlement. I fear it's more a stalling tactic.

[AA5-A]

I just hope this isn't one of their delaying tactics. Almost 2 weeks for another meeting? or am I just being paranoid?

[twinboom]

I guess JF plus boy wonder prior engagements at Le Bourget and Jim McA busy with the Bearded One's big jet drivers?

[Serenity]

Share price down over 7% today to 167 pence.

What's going on??

Union and management last ditch meetings looming?
Possible IA ballot?
Indecision on distribution of jet and other fleets?
Something else entirely????
:confused:

[salsaboy]

Anyone seen any ballot papers yet?
I haven't?!
Apparently an announcement could be imminent.
Including a 'solution'

*holds breath*
:\

[BluffOldSeaDog]

If you'd read all the comms coming from the company and Balpa you would have noticed that the next meeting is today, so hopefully yes, an imminent announcement of major concessions based on the Jim Mc letter to JF from a couple of weeks ago

[flyingcamel]

I fully expect nearly all terms to be met, and then magically the smaller bases (eg INV, ABZ, LGW) will start to close in order to save them money.

Of course set against an 'announcement' that the pilots are to blame because they are greedy buggers.

Awesome.:ok:

[SmilingKnifed]

But that would fly in the face of what Jim French said, which was (to paraphrase :E )

'We're committed to ensuring pilots are based in the regions. In fact, it's flybe's sole reason for existing. We're like a homing centre for displaced regional pilots. We never allow a healthy one to be put down. How could I sleep at night knowing that some of our pilots weren't able to drive just round the corner to spend 55 hours off with their (probably lovely) families? Buckets of cash you say? What buckets of cash? Shut up!'

[Cumulo Calvus]

I'm more concerned about today's NOTAC saying I can only fill my coffee cup up to 3/4 full.

What's the hedge cost of hot water these days? We can all make a difference.

[SmilingKnifed]

Notac? Water? I'm not into work for another couple of hours. Do tell!

[Cumulo Calvus]

SK - don't want to ruin the surprise. Just make sure you follow the new procedures when you pass the coffee to your colleague on the flightdeck! :ugh:

[SmilingKnifed]

I'll file it with the Notacs on always wiping front to back and avoiding yellow snow :hmm:

[assymetricdrift]

Well I never...

Better make sure we all get extra large cups on the Company Credit Card...

[SmilingKnifed]

I've already got you a Tommee Tippee one! I'll send it via company mail today ;)

[AA5-A]

DO for me today, so not been in today. It's 17:30 and still no news through email!!! Anybody heard anything yet?

[Pizzaro]

Email has been sent

[AA5-A]

was it sent by company or balpa? I still havn't received it.

[assymetricdrift]

I haven't got it yet either... Waiting with baited breath...

[AA5-A]

Just received it through balpa, not read it yet though.

[assymetricdrift]

Excellent. Well hopefully mine will be here soon too...

[AA5-A]

Don't expect details!!! Thats to come later!!!

[assymetricdrift]

Well, in that case, I'm off outta here!

[arelix]

Why do Notacs always come out on a Wednesday? ;)

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

"sustainable growth". The new industry wide buzz phrase. However, initially it looks promising, so lets see. An olive branch perhaps??

[AirResearcher]

Good luck guys, Ive heard how things have been at Flybe..and things need to change there too. Dont sell yourselves short !

[HidekiTojo]

Another offer and another vote, excellent! Looking forward to several more months of negotiating.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So...

Coming out of the backside of a recession Flybe makes the largest profit that it ever has.

The "Management" have been well looked after and rewarded.

You, the pilots, have not. By a long, long way.

Poor old Frenchy has to drag his lap dog around the bases pretending to listen to you...giving the appearance of being shoved into a corner.

You might get a slightly sweeter deal and that will appear to be the "best" deal that Flybe can possibly afford.

But! It will all still be utter bull****.

It is patently obvious to even the most brain cell deficient observer that there is still so much more of the largest profit ever made to be shared amongst the workers. YOU.

What has happened over the last 12-18 months is just a sham.

Keep pushing because you can and will get a better deal.

[Serenity]

All these offers seem to really pale even more concidering the profits posted and the majority purchase of Finncom!!

[PaulJ1957]

A couple of quick spots from the detailed report and accounts available on the flybe web site. ( both as I understand from an initial read)
1) Each of the non executive Directors who is on the Remuneration Committee ( ie responsible for fair pay throughout the company) appears to have received a 20% to 25% pay increase in the year. 2) ( and this is tucked in small print). For 2011-12 each executive director( ie full time) will now be able to earn a proportion of their annual bonus on"personal performance objectives"!ie doing the job they"re already being paid to do anyway. For previous years a bonus is only payable if financial objectives met. In summary all are v likely to pIck up a reasonable bonus even if financial performance doesn't justify it.
The words "double standards" just don't come to mind. Do they?

[AirResearcher]

If anyone hasnt seen the Finnair/Flybe Nordic news yet its here:
Finnair and Flybe to set up Flybe Nordic and acquire Finnish Commuter Airlines | Cision Wire (http://www.cisionwire.com/finnair-oyj-g/r/finnair-and-flybe-to-set-up-flybe-nordic-and-acquire-finnish-commuter-airlines,e244474)

I wonder if the directors/senior managers pay has a 'no revolving door' clause that means they have to stay with the airline for a minimum period - say 5 or 10 years - so that any 'brilliant idea' they have that proves to be short term profitable, but long term disastrous is flagged up while they still work for the company? It's too easy for Management to get away with making changes, leave to work for another company and leave a trail of destruction behind them......

[AA5-A]

Anyone received email from balpa yet!!!:confused::sad:

[assymetricdrift]

And just like the Rapture...

Tuesday vanished without an earth shattering change.

It will come through the second I post this though!

[AA5-A]

Excitement turning into annoyance!!!

[Coffin Corner]

Ditto

It's not funny now, Tuesday lunchtime. Maybe they meant Tuesday lunchtime next week :ugh:

[AA5-A]

Or next year???:*

[Trousersyacard]

Is it a case of no matter how much polish is used it still doesn't shine.

[AA5-A]

Just received an email from Balpa!!! Announcing dates for member meetings, and that the offer will be despatched asap!!! Feels like something fishy is going on.:ooh:

[assymetricdrift]

I got that too... and a note telling me to be in the BHX meeting tomorrow. I don't normally consider going to work on days off, but I think I might just go along and see what they have to say about it.

[Coffin Corner]

I'm not really interested in the meetings, I just want the latest offer they promised us. 8 days tomorrow, it must be something monumental to take that long. :rolleyes:

[flyingcamel]

According to unofficial sources, a 364/1 fixed roster and a 12.5% incremental rise over 3 years entirely in M&S vouchers and thankyou notes.

This just in:

Nothing
;-)

[Deano777]

flyingcamel

Love it :ok:

[AA5-A]

They're being very generous with that single day aren't they:}.

[six-sixty]

I.m beginning to feel like I'm being manipulatedand it's beginning to pee me off! I just hope it doesn't backfire and a reasonable offer gets rejected for the wrong reasons. Surely everyone has learned that treating us like idiots who can't think for ourselves has not proven a ace strategy so far. Just the facts please.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Do any of you, or anybody you know, think that Jim will have come over all soft and given you a decent offer? Both pay and T&C's? Or one or the other?

Serious question.

The perpetual BS of "we really really really want to improve the rostering and lates to earlies we really do honestly". Well, do it then. It's not hard. Blue Skies or whatever it was/is called. Done.

NOPE, they do NOT want to improve it at all. As evidenced in JF's letter.

The "information gathering" exercise by French and Strong was for their benefit only. They will have developed an offer that will appear to be better but won't be.

Flybe has money, a lot of it too. They don't want you to have it. Frenchy and cronies want to keep it all for themselves.

DO NOT LET THEM.

[JB007]

First post 16th August 2010, 53 pages and counting...

In the time this thread has been running, my employer has installed BALPA representation from nothing and we've got our payrise for 2010 (backdated) and 2011 agreed, payed and spent!

Whilst appreciating the 'big picture' is not given here, but man alive somebody grow some and sort this....

[Iakovos]

New offer available for balpa member's viewing. Check your emails...

Highlights:
SFO's get £3k payrise. (after completing PCLA)
60 hour weekend.
Contactable days (SDD's) introduced instead of so many pointless standbys.

[bullet190]

Just read latest offer which came through this morning.

2% 2010/2011 back dated, 5.2% pay rise for 2011/2012, RPI + .5% for 2012/2013

Many improvements in the SA, some listed by Iakovos.

It will be a YES :ok: from me.

Nicely timed JB007 :yuk:

Anyone who thinks that Jim's little visits/chats had anything to do with this is in need of a brain transplant ! The only thing they respect is force, a pilot workforce ready to strike is just that.

Well done BALPA and the CC.

[Otto Throttle]

So, it's still a miserly pay rise (only just in real terms) and a bit of tinkering with the SA, which only benefits a 2 day weekend. Anything longer, and it's the same deal as now - finish late, start early.

No from me. Again.

And goodbye BALPA.

[turbowhat]

cant complain, well done to Balpa and the CC, looks like I need to get a PCLA done asap.

[doodle2]

And that sums up the point.

The offer is designed to get a 51% vote, so the FO's with 3 stripes get £2500 extra p.a.

They will of course have to wait for their PCLAs, and when they get them they'll get LHS quickly, so the £2500 extra will never be seen!!

Well done JB007 for your post. :=

[Pizzaro]

Yes from me. Well done BALPA and the CC.

[SmilingKnifed]

Yes from me. It's a step in the right direction, but I emphasise only a step! They have to back this up with a long term commitment to improvement and not allow another few years of stagnation.

[Cumulo Calvus]

I'm tempted to vote yes to it, and I thank the CC for standing firm and squeezing some blood out a stone.

I don't see the SFO improvements as trying to scrape a 51% yes vote. It actually gives bums like me in the RHS a clearer path and possible career structure again, with something approaching proper renumeration for the responsibility and skills. It is only a good offer though IF - and it's a big IF - people are actually given PCLAs when they are ready and not left to rot. This has to happen.

Scheduling is an improvement, and we need to push for more and more through this new committee now.

I fully agree - this is a step in the right direction, but the rhetoric of now all being friends MUST be backed up with continued, solid and real improvements over the coming years as the airline grows.

It should never have got this far. And if Jim is genuine about things having to be done differently in the future, he should get the middle management who continuously lied about there being no money, maninpulated figures to try to pull the wool over our eyes and insult our intelligence,and threatened redundancies and base closures to try to get us to shift and sack them on the spot.

[Snigs]

Otto,

Have you really read the agreement, or are you just mouthing off for the sake of it?

There are some real improvements, particularly in the setting up of the JSMC, which should stop all of the different interpretations of a few words here and there. The SDD's are an improvement and a 64 hour weekend (minimum 60) is better, as people have said it's a step in the right direction. As for SFO's that's great for them, a real recognition of their achievement.

But.... I suppose you wouldn't be happy if you were paid twice as much for half the work... would you? :rolleyes:

[assymetricdrift]

It's a step in the right direction and one that I am happy with.

It's not everything we wanted, but equally, it successfully shows how things have progressed.

I equally think that 2 big thanks yous for getting this offer out should be:

1/ to the BALPA members and pilots who stood up to the company despite the intimidation and general malaise from certain elements of the pilot populations.

2/ To the CC for doing a good job in negotiating what they have done.

As I said it's not perfect at all, but it is a step in the right direction. I want to see how crewing intend to follow this up - and whether they will play ball.

No thanks to:

1/ Andrew Strong.
2/ PBMs.

[sdryh]

Well done BALPA. It's not 100% perfect but I think under the current situation it is going to be the best we will get. I like the idea of 64hr weekends, 60hrs minimum and senior FO's getting an extra £3000. It shows a little more towards a career with flybe. Pay rise is acceptable, but the most encouraging is BALPA's goal to get the salaries towards other airlines.

Good work, it was worth holding out for. We could go for more, but I would like my pay and lifestyle changed this year!

Many thanks

[HidekiTojo]

The SFO part worries me, PCLA should have nothing to do with it as this process is often difficult and murky. It should be done on hours. Most FOs go directly from PCLA to a command. This isn't a real airline where you can spend many years in the RHS. I'm voting yes but still leaving at earliest convinience.

I imagine lots of FOs bidding for a jet command at somewhere like EXT just to get the SFO status. It's flawed.

[Afterglow]

Yes from me too, OT - I think leaving BALPA is very bad idea, if it wasn't for them we'd have got close to diddly squat. Well done to the CC. Oh and this pay deal only runs for another year, then it's back to the table again...

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Oh and this pay deal only runs for another year, then it's back to the table again...

Better start negotiations now then!

[six-sixty]

It's good enough for me. We were never going to get it all, but there is some serious progress here. Well done to the cc, you've redeemed yourselves for the second offer "strong recommendation" calamity and then some. Shame on the co for making it drag this long with all the lies, half truths and spin. Hopefully they'll bear in mind our newly developed backbone when certain individuals consider treating us like simpletons again. Agreed some people's credibility has been seriously damaged by the way they handled this, and they may have a bit of an uphill struggle before the pilots trust them again.

Maybe one suggestion for future negotiations; if we want 6%, maybe we go in asking for 15%.....!

[Snigs]

HidekiTojo

The SFO part worries me, PCLA should have nothing to do with it as this process is often difficult and murky. It should be done on hours. Most FOs go directly from PCLA to a command.

The PCLA is just that, a "Pre-Command Line Assessment", it assesses your ability to be a Captain. If you jump through all the hoops on the line and in the sim, and are assessed to be "a Captain in waiting" then why not get paid a bit extra for being that. It's not a passport to being a Captain straight away, I know senior FO's of several years standing who just haven't bid for the right place at the right time, but they're very experienced, but hitherto paid just £500 more than other FO's. IMHO the SFO scale is welcome.

Don't forget you can start the process to SFO as soon as you've got the required hours (total and in Flybe) which I can't quote but are in the company manuals.

I imagine lots of FOs bidding for a jet command at somewhere like EXT just to get the SFO status. It's flawed.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, it just doesn't work that way!

[Snigs]

On another point, are we going to know whether we're rostered as Core standby duties, or standby duties possibly subject to SDD?

[Cutoff]

There are plenty of people thanking the CC for their hard work, I am sure that they did work hard and I respect their willingness to give spare time to do this. However, did they work smart? Not in my opinion, right to the last minute they still did not have a clear idea what they were asking the company for, in terms of percentage rise and sched improvements and as usual were trying to fight on too many fronts rather than pick a specific issue and get that resolved.
It actually took Jim F and Andrew S coming around to the crew rooms talking to people directly to find out what was needed and then a meeting with Jim M from grown up Balpa to sort this mess out and come up with a realistic offer, which gets my vote anyway.
Of course I am grateful that Balpa stood thier ground on the most part and it is thanks to that..that we now have this improved offer but do not forget the last offer was strongly recommened by the CC.
Now the CC need to get a plan in place for the next negotiations, a set of clear and simple improvements to put to the company and do not try to fight on too many fronts!!

[six-sixty]

Can't argue worth any of that cutoff, though to be fair we've got a relatively young and until now inexperienced cc and I'm sure they will be the first to admit they've learned loads in the last 6 months which is all skills in the bank to be spent on our behalf next time. And no I'm not on the cc.

AS will have learned stuff too, hopefully that the Apprentice is a good tv show but not a serious management toolkit.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

So, effectively, apart from an RPI increase (not a pay rise at all, and do not forget all the years of RPI increasing without any pay rise whatsoever - how far behind have salaries fallen in the last decade plus? I'll tell you, more than you have "gained" today) the essence of this new improved offer is what?

An extra six hours when you have two days off.

How about we just roster you all 6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3/6/3? No gain.

Oh, wait. You will still be rostered just as many standbys as you are now although you may lose a few of these the day before. Why not use available days? You can't have that because you'll have more than the golden 108 days off per year. By the way my nominated contact period for a SDD would be 2100 - 0000Z...ha!

It's not bad but it could be a LOT better.

I hope you all stick it out even more. There is more to be had and you still won't break the bank.

[Snigs]

Oh God, another one.

No profile details Lord Spandex Masher, so I wonder if you work for Flybe or you're just a pretender. If you don't work for Flybe then go away, if you do, then find another job that has better T's & C's, (if you can). If the latter applies then shut up, moron!

[Coffin Corner]

To be fair to LSM he has been on our side from the word go.

[Pizzaro]

LSM, why don't you run for the cc?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Dear Snigs, who's rattled your cage then?

If you read back a few pages you will see that I used to work for Flybe, I assume that you can read.

Not that my employ has any relevance to this debate but I have done exactly as you suggested and am more than happy, thank you.

Either way I won't be going away or shutting up...Moron.

I still maintain an interest in Flybe. I made many friends at Flybe in my nearly 15 years flying for them and I'm still in touch with them all.

So, mutter and grumble all you like. Accept the first decent offer to come your way for years and be happy with your lot. Hopefully the rest of the intelligent people at Flybe won't rest on their laurels until they get what is owed to them. I'm sure that you will happily benefit from their efforts?

Pizzaro, hope that answers your question. I would if I could.

By the way Snigs, petulant name calling really is unbecoming a knight in shining armour yet you have the gall to call me a pretender.

[bigjarv]

Many have had run ins with lord spandex! He has many sides and a slightly pompous and occasionally smug tone from the sidelines!!!

I think 11% over 2 years is not too far off the mark when compared to others in the industry. The removal of smoke and mirrors in the offer (read bull s**t) and what appears to finally be some genuine recognition and resolution of gripes from the top man is very encouraging. Still won't encourage most to stay I think but will make things better for those in transit and those that do stay. On the whole... Yes!

[tomcs]

Its a yes from me!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Run in - When someone reponds to what you have written by telling you to go away and calling you a moron?

No attempt to respond to any points in my post just some name calling.

That level of intelligence is likely to vote for a pay cut as well.

Anywho, there is nothing to stop the company rostering you 6/3/6/3 for the rest of your life. Net gain = ZERO

Flybe have just made their biggest profit EVER. Your pay rise, if it's accepted, is pathetic and relative to the cost of living isn't a rise. Net gain = ZERO

I can remember 3 years worth of pay rises in the last decade. If this offer is accepted it will be 6 years worth in 13 years. How much has the cost of living gone up in the same period? More than the "pay rises". Net gain = BIG LOSS.

Remember JF had 28.5% on over £500,000.
How much did Strong get?
Middle management? 9% was it? In one year.
Management bonuses no longer linked to financial performance, they just get them now regardless.

What are you negotiating for exactly?
What are you now voting for?

If this offer is accepted, from JF's perspective it's end game. From his perspective you lot are not even strong enough to negotiate an RPI plus pay RISE and a vast, necessary, improvement in scheduling/Ts&Cs.

You will have accepted a mediocre, at best, offer after 18 months of negotiating.

That is all you will ever get from now on.

[Otto Throttle]

How easily it seems everyone has rolled over to let JF and his boy tickle your tums. The directors and managers must be laughing their heads off right now. Minimal cost to avoid IA, they're still on track to make massive bonuses (read the accounts to see just how much), and you lot are voting yes to what amounts to a real terms 0.5% pay rise.

What's that in your pocket every month? Less than £10 for most FOs. Oh, and a vague promise to stand you down from standby. Maybe. If you're lucky. How many crews have bitched over the last umpteen pages about how hard they work, with no standby duties left uncalled? Really think it's going to get better?

Mugs.

[superdash]

It's a big fat NO from me. SFO is a farce good luck getting a sim slot. 2012/13 is still capped. It's a joke.

Balpa and JF have chewed you up and spat you out in bubbles. Sooner I leave this excuse for an airline the better. The only ones left will be the naive and those not good enough.

Bye.

[Snigs]

Lord Spandex Masher it is so easy to prevaricate on the fortunes of others and pronounce on a deal that you're not involved with. I do not comment on the T’s & C’s of other airlines, partly because I don’t know the details, and partly because I’m not interested. This is a public forum so you can have your say, but for me it is entirely invalid comment if you don’t have to suffer the consequences of the decision, hence my (ok, agreed, rather blunt) suggestion that you keep quiet. It’s a shame that we don’t make more use of the Flybe private forum for these discussions!

To everyone who this matters to, I say this is a transition from a bit player in the “toy” airline market to a serious contender in Europe, things won’t be perfect immediately (if ever) but every airline has taken lots of little steps to get where they are, going for more at this stage (in my humble opinion) is loading the gun and pointing it at your foot!

I assume that you can read.
Hopefully the rest of the intelligent people at Flybe....
What was it you said about petulant name calling?

Oh, and by the way, not that it’s relevant at all, but “PPRuNe Knight in Shining Armour” was bestowed on me but a fellow PPRuNer for a (perceived) act of gallantry back in May 2000 at the “AshBash”, you know, the year 2000 when there were people on PPRuNe who had positive things to say and were helpful!!!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Well I am interested in Flybe, it was my first airline job and I do have a bit of a soft spot for it. That and the many friends I have who still work there.

Plus I've never precluded a return to the fold, as it were, so my interest, both personal and professional, does matter. If you don't like it then hard cheese.

So you go ahead and accept the first real offer that has been tabled and prepare yourself for years more ineffective negotiations with little or no improvement to your current deal. You are now where you should have been 18 months ago and this should have been the starting point for these ongoing negotiations. You keep subsidising ticket prices and JF's supercars and his million pound apartment in Knightsbridge and management's interest free loans.

Or you could keep the pressure on the airline that, from the middle of a recession, has made the most money in one year that it ever has. You know that they can afford more than they have offered. They wouldn't have offered it otherwise would they?

"Things" should have been perfect years ago! The little steps you mention should have been happening for the last 20 years but you (Balpa/the pilot group) have allowed them to stagnate and now you're trying to play catch up against a pilot hating CEO who has zero interest in what you can afford in your limited time off.

If this offer is accepted then good luck in ever getting anything worthwhile.

What was it you said about petulant name calling?

Yeah, well you started it. Just responding in kind.

[Coffin Corner]

LSM.

You have to admit, it's easy for you to come in here preaching what we should or shouldn't do, that's also easy for someone like you who is probably sat pretty on his fat wallet salary with a bigger airline. What exactly did you achieve when you were here last? Alot of us have only inherited the legacy you left behind. You're on your high horse about it all, but what exactly did you do to improve things? It's all very easy to preach now you've left hey? :=

[Lord Spandex Masher]

CC, fair comments. When I say the "pilot group allowed...etc" I do count myself in that number when I was at Flybe.

Balpa has only been recognised at Flybe for what, 5 years or so. It should have been sooner and the pressure applied to management should have been bigger. As it was that kind of pressure never existed until recently, I'm pretty certain that it would have been quashed swiftly without Balpa.

So we are all at fault.

I'm not on my high horse about it, I just want a better dealf for you, my friends and my ex-colleagues. Don't worry though, my attitude to Flybe's management is the same as the one I currently display to my present employer.

You do have to ask yourself though how did those pilots at other airlines get a better deal than Flybe? Pressure, that's all and that's all I'm suggesting to you now.

[JW411]

I made a comment round about Page 38 about this sorry saga.

I am glad that you all find this a wonderful offer from management.

I call it pathetic and if you agree to this, your future does not look good.

Well done management, you have won again and you will be able to take another huge increase in your package later in the year when the dust has settled.

[Pizzaro]

Out of interest JW411, which part of the offer do you find the worst , scheduling or the pay side ?

Regards P

[JW411]

I do apologies. I was the union man for a long time including the Teamsters.

I just felt that you have all rolled over on your backs and accepted the first offer that came up from management.

In my opinion, you should have rejected this offer. You may live to regret it.

[HidekiTojo]

Today's flybe newsletter sums this company up quite nicely. It's the most unprofessional, pathetic and tacky thing I have ever seen.

[Snigs]

AirHart, thank you, I couldn't have said it better.

[superdash]

This is no "roll over" I believe the management have a clear message from the workforce this time round and will stand us in good stead for the next round! I also think there is a balance between being paid well and being paid well securely! At the end of the day we need the company to be in profit. Greed can take over and we know what happens when the profit disappears. One step at a time I say....

Please just take some time to reflect on this post, concentrate on the word 'Greed'.

[BluffOldSeaDog]

Always wondered why we got those self-congratulatory newsletters, who exactly is it aimed at? You're right HT, that reads more like a press release, the tacky picture I think you're referring to is from Anna Aero's website though, so you can't blame somebody's photoshopping skills down at the Death Star :E

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Airhart, I don't know how many times you need to hear it but Flybe have just made their largest profit ever. It won't disappear if you get a pay "rise" rather than a pay "stay the same relatively".

Maybe the management will have to take smaller bonuses. Bonuses that they will get regardless of their performance. That's just changed by the way, did you notice it?

Look at it from JF's seat. He'll drag things out as long as necessary and then magically you get an offer of a pay rise of almost what Balpa asked for to start with. He will expect, and you are proving him right, that most of you will think that he's been pushed into a corner and had to back down. He hasn't. He's played you all like a two bit piccolo and if you accept this offer he'll be laughing all the way to the bank with his huge bonus that he didn't have to do anything for in his R8 that he can afford because the rest of the workforce are so cheap.

If you accept this measly offer of no pay rise what makes you think that you can ever get anything better out of Flybe? You're going to go on strike again are you? Like you did last time...no wait, you didn't. You accepted a crappy offer so that's what you'll get again.

[Burpbot]

Its a much better worded deal! Im sure a PR expert has done it! But the money is still short! The scheduling is nice and fluffy but come on look at the wording! Look at it in real terms you know how crewing will see it! JSMC one member from each side but if a dispute occurs GM decides do you really believe the sword will fall on the company side?

Sorry the trust has gone! If this had been the first offer I think it would have gone through, but now I see it still as a NO!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Airhart, nope, I wrote that before I had seen the latest financial report. I also made that comment, if I recall correctly, in response to another comment along the lines of "you knew what the deal was so tough, you shouldn't expect anything else". I knew what the deal was when I joined, so did everybody else but do you think that we should never get a pay rise or improvement in lifestyle?

I don't. I expect an improvement in lifestyle the longer I work. I do not expect to be earning the same, relatively, in 30 years time as I do know. If you're happy with that, fine.

RPI rises should be the absolute minimum, every year. They should not be the final result after 18 months of negotiation. Especially following a record profit in a recession.

That profit was possibly partly because you and I did not have a pay rise for a number of years. The management benefited from it, the company benefited from it so why shouldn't we?

Come on, get a grip.

[Otto Throttle]

For those who stil believe that this is the best deal the company can afford, go to the Flybe website, click on the 'Investors' link, read the accounts and tot up just how much money the board are prepared to set aside to pay bonuses of 100% of salary plus extras to all the directors. I make that considerably more money than they have claimed it is costing to fund the measly 'improvements' to your Ts & Cs. Read JF's statements regarding the 'strong' position of the company's finances and trading, and the obvious optimism over the future. No hint there that we are only just scraping a living and teeter on the brink of financial oblivion.

If this pathetic deal is accepted, then it just shows that the pervious 50 something pages of threats, posturing, big, brave words and name calling is only so much hot air. All mouth and no trousers, just as the management knew you all would be. That's why you've got nowhere with these negotiations. The £3 grand for SFOs is only the £3 grand they stole from you all 5 years ago to stop the last big threat to the company, so in effect, not really a pay rise at all.

Anyone who thinks that in 2 years time a massively improved offer will materialise id frankly delusional. You've been had by the board, and this was with a strong bargaining position. In 2 years I doubt they will give you the time of day. They will hardly hear you for all the laughing on the way to the bank.

This is a golden opportunity to actually drive home a deal that makes a difference - i.e; a substantial move towards a more competitive pay deal and a SA that is much closer to the Blue Sky agreement. No more of this fannying about with a few more hours off here and there, and a possibility of the odd standby being dropped for a SDD.

[ZeBedie]

Watching from outside, you guys need to stop sell yourselves short and learn from your colleagues at Virgin.

[judge11]

Has French offered you the deal you wanted - to the letter?

If the answer is 'no', refuse the offer. This agreement suits nobody else but French and his managers who you all seem to despise so much.

The reason he has made this offer is because it suits him; it's as easy as that. Your company can afford to settle this and meet every demand you made but it appears that all French has had to do is wave a bit of money under the noses of a few and sound amenable on the SA; some of you think its Xmas.

There has been much bravado about strike action and that is what you should still be holding over French to get exactly what you want. If you give up on this, then all crediblity and any future negotiation with management will be laughed out of court.

Don't capitulate now. Have you noticed that Virgin settled on the back of planned strike action?

[mad_bob]

It's a No from me...

The pay is a step in the right direction, although some ex Connect may not be doing as well out of it. But the scheduling is a none starter for me. Nope it's just more of the same.

If the company genuinely did care, they would have made an offer above what we had asked for. 108 days off and no Royal bank holidays says it all really.

And who on earth thinks flying after the sim is a good idea?

[Burpbot]

Fancier version of the last two offers! Does anyone believe you will get an SDD? How many times have you been on AS everything in the air and told to call back in half hour???

NO!

[airjersey]

They´ve offered what BALPA has asked for except the 64 hours, which instead is 60. The rest is what BALPA wanted, and that´s the reason why it is backed by the whole CC.

So what else do you want?

[Coffin Corner]

Actually it isn't, BALPA asked for 6.1% for year 1. We haven't got that. We also asked for the Blue Skies Agreement, we haven't got that either.

[Otto Throttle]

Actually, on the SA BALPA asked for the long 2 day weekend plus 24 hrs for every additional day thereafter. You don't have it. Anything longer than 2 days off and you still get stuffed with lates to earlies. 6/3 6/3 6/3 - totally legal and satisfies the minimum monthly days off requirement too. I hope you all enjoy it.

Nor have they delivered the significant closure with the rest of the industry with regard to pay that BALPA claim in their recent letter, because they have added holiday pay into the issue. Looks like it's not only the board that produce complete BS when it suits them.

[Cutoff]

Yes for me

[judge11]

'I do honestly believe we are worth so much more'............then damned well stand up to them and get what you feel you are worth.

If you saw this through you wouldn't have to keep 'chipping away'.

Get the cake baked, with all the ingredients, this time around according to YOUR recipe, not what French feels he'll deign to concede to you, and from the next negotiation you put the icing on the cake.

Accept this and you'll be forever eating the crumbs management feed you.

[Calmcavok]

It has to be a no. It's still too far from the original BALPA request, and how long ago was that? Don't be worn down, don't be disillusioned, the company has the money, demand to be treated properly. 2% for FY10/11 is an awful long way from 6.1%. Scheduling is still off. It must be better.

£3000 for SFOs is a bit left field. The board are wise to who are the most frustrated and angry. That £3000 should have been there all along, but demands for skippers will increase, and how will that taxed £3000 affect you long term? You might not be off to BA/BMI/QR/EK next year, go for a proper rise for all.

[mad_bob]

Tied into the agreement for 5 years, seems not to get mentioned very much recently but it's still there. So no more than 108 days off and no more than 60 hours for a weekend until at leaset March 2016. But don't forget Jim really really cares!

did'nt we already reject this

[Otto Throttle]

For the FOs considering the £3k.

What are the conditions of your deal? Where are the details before you all vote 'yes'?

Is it payable to current SFOs, or only new SFOs? When does it come into force?

Once you pass a PCA, how long is it valid for? Does your £3k depend on the PCA remaining valid?

Once you eventually make it to the LHS, does the deal for skippers look half as good as it does for SFOs?

Say 'yes' now, and you shaft yourself 12-18 months down the line.

[Serenity]

Yet another nudge in the right direction, but management give very little;

-Still limited to 108 days off!
-Stood down from stby the day before, right, how often are you left hanging on astby when nothing is there? All down to crewings good will
-SFO will become a rare position, as the industry moves people will move through FO to captain in a shorter time than the previous static years. Bet you don't even collect the full years 3 grand!
-why to be a SFO do you need to pass command selection, every other major carrier requires unfrozen atpl plus 500 on type!!
-still 4 hours disruptionto get a payment when cabin crew bought this down to 2 hrs in their negotiating.
-how about €10 per sector like Finncomm who Flybe have just purchased instead of £1.90 perhour??

A few steps forward but much basic stuff left undone, a lot depending on the companies good will. As people move on and the industry picks up over the next couple of years, how much goodwill willyou see from management. How much so far??

[beamer]

Openings at a certain smiley blue UK charter outift expected soon !

[Boing7117]

While I'm not entirely happy with the current deal put to us, I am of the belief that this is better than the last offer. At this stage of the negotiations, given the time taken to get to where we are today and my concern that if we get another "no" vote, there's going to be a struggle to maintain momentum and push for further improvements.

I think we should cash in our chips at this point. Accept what we've been offered and take stock of how far forward we have moved.

Yes, we should have more days off, yes we should have got our Royal Bank Holiday.

But there is a substantial pay offer on the table, there is an improvement to our existing SA.

Let's go for it - and let the Joint Scheduling Committee address the niggly issues which will no doubt surface in the future.

When the next bank holiday appears we can stand firm - and demand recognition.

It's a yes from me.

[Calmcavok]

Or say no, ballot for IA and watch how quickly they offer a better deal?

[Boing7117]

my gut feeling is that we might end up cutting off our noses to spite our faces if we vote no this time round.

The individual costs of going on strike may well outweigh any financial benefits in any existing (or improved) offer.

What I'm suggesting is that a 2 day or 3 day strike will go some way to wiping out a large portion of our back pay.

It might hurt us more than them and possibly for very little "extra".

We're never going to close our pay gap in one major negotiation, nor are we going to get the best SA. But the CC have done a good job here and made some significant progress.

[Boing7117]

So by your logic your only voting yes to protect a tiny bit of back pay over increasing your future earnings and quality of life.

No, of course not. That would suggest the only reason I would vote yes is because I want a decent pay packet in August. My yes reasons are a bit more involved than just that.

I don't think we would achieve much more by agreeing strike action.

I do think we've got a better deal than the first time round.

And yes, while I'm not completely and utterley delighted with every aspect of the SA, I am happier with it than our current one, and I think I will see an improvement in quality of life.

Would I want more? Of course.

But I'm satisfied that after 18 months of negotiations this is where we've reached.

I'm happy to see this deal go through. Then after some R&R back to the round table to start the next set of negotiations.

[fly-dj]

IA does not have to be a strike.

Its not 60 hours min, its 56 hours min. The 60 hour protection only applies to extra sectors added to you on the day! If your tech delayed, wx delayed, slot delayed, just plain late cos the schedule is to tight or anything else min hours off can ( AND YOU BETTER BELIEVE WILL ) be reduced to 56.

Its not even a substantive pay rise, its 2% year 1 + inflation plus 0.5% year 2 then inflation plus for year 3 but capped soo low its going to end up being a real terms pay cut in the final year.

Do you really think this is the best they could do? Just look at what the directors and non exec directors are giving themselves in the full year accounts and ask yourself again?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Accept what we've been offered and take stock of how far forward we have moved.

Lets take stock of just how far forward you've come then.

1. Ummmm,
2. Errrrrrrrrrrr,
3. A pay rise that isn't,
4. A pay rise that is less than Balpa originally asked for,
5. No extra bank holidays, unlike the rest of the company.
6. What else?

If you're satisfied with that after a year and a half of negotiations what on earth will you be happy with after 6 months or a year, or however long the next lot takes?!

I don't think we would achieve much more by agreeing strike action.

Wanna bet?

JF will not want you to strike, or even any less aggressive forms of IA. You will get a better offer if you keep pushing.

You deserve it. Don't sell yourselves short.

[six-sixty]

Some guys here need a serious reality check. There's this attitude by some, most likely people who've not had much experience before flying maybe, that no one should be able to be forced to work a minute longer that their scheduled day without the right to refuse, payouts etc. It's that 1970s mentality which basically ruined this country and turned the public against unions.

Secondly LSM. I know you've got the "right" to say what you want, public forum, blah blah and I know you say you used to work here but you don't now, so why the he'll is nearly all the bitter agit-prop bile coming from you? Why can't you leave us alone and worry about your own circumstances.

I was prepared to go on strike on the back of the first 2 "offers" as they were insulting. This latest one still is, but not to extent I could personally justify striking. There's a hard core on these boards who are going to say no to anything less than BAs scheduling agreement and a 30% payrise. I just hope they are a very loud minority and that this deal gets voted through.

Are the company suddenly fluffy bunnies. No. Do I trust them an inch. No. Will I still leave the very minute something else comes up. Yes. In the meantime 60-64 hours off over the weekend will be a very welcome lifestlye improvement.

All with the proviso that the proposed stitch up of the ex bacon skippers gets resolved, otherwise it's a no.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

six-sixty, I don't know what agit-prop means! Anyway, it's not all coming from me, there are others who agree that this is a poor deal. Doesn't mean I have to speak like a politician though. Also my comments are generally aimed at:

- The offer
- The company

I do worry about my own circumstances, when it's necessary, but that doesn't mean I can't be interested in anything else, does it?

You're happy to vote for this deal and that's fine, nobody can stop you. You can get your minimal back pay and your extra 4 hours (which may or may not happen) then join another company. That's fine too. But please think about the other people at Flybe who can't leave (for whatever reason), or don't want to, who will be tied into the same poor scheduling agreement until 2016.

18 months of negotiations and you've achieved less than you originally asked for. Amazing. That's isn't a go at you or Balpa it's aimed at the company's brilliant delaying tactics, smoke and mirrors and ability to make it appear as if they're offering you something worthwhile.