Ryanair exodus, what is the plan? [Archive]

potkettleblack

27th Jul 2010, 08:31

It was reported that EK need at least 700 pilots. FR has by my quick maths around 3000 pilots (250ish airframes times 6 crews). No HR department in their right mind would hire exclusively from one airline so don't expect them to fill all the slots from FR. Likewise if BA and Virgin start recruiting don't expect them to target FR solely.

I can't see that any loss of pilots will really cause MOL any problems. There are enough people willing to pay to fly to fill his courses up for years to come. Sure his experience base might be depleted but this has never worried him in the past. He has loads of airframes parked up anyway and his pilots are not working that hard at the moment in anycase. A bit of tweaking with the roster would pick up any slack and bring a smile to the eye of the BRK contractors as their pay packets increase.

Given that funding is difficult to find I am surprised that MOL hasn't offered a scheme similar to CTC where he effectively screws the candidate out of more money through paying back career loans in addition to a salary/hourly rate sacrifice. It would lock in the pilot in the absence of having any cash to be able to buy themself out of the "deal".

HighLow

27th Jul 2010, 15:25

Who ever said Ryanair has a plan to deal with the upcoming pilot shortage, ("and I say use the term upcoming very loosly as it appears they are short at the moment).

For sure, O'Leary missed the boat ordering those new planes! His business plan is based on aggresive expansion...and for the sake of not spending an extra few euro after his recent scrap with Boeing, he has let his competitors get back at him. There are whisperings that a 787 order is in the running .... Who cares ! Boeings Order Book is nearly as thick as MOLS wallet; Boeing are not interested in RYR unless they willing to pay up. Ryanair got lucky with that cheap order from Boeing those years back, and thats all it was , LUCK, not skill. Boeing were desperate at the time...

Tides are turning, and MOL will be on the back foot very soon...

Before Mickey slips on his PJ's and attempts to have a peaceful sleep tonight he should think about this :
MOL you are now in the big leagues my son ! People are not going to tolerate this school yard bully boy tactics for much longer...If there is no new plane delivery on the cards or there is no attempt to improve the deal with existing pilots, you will be in deep S H 1 T. People will leave, shareholders will wonder why you have got the airline into the situation where it has to ground planes, and Sir there is only one person to blame here, couldnt happen to a nicer fella :)

Doug the Head

27th Jul 2010, 15:56

For sure, O'Leary missed the boat ordering those new planes! I could not disagree more. This recession/economic slowdown/credit crunch is far from over, unless you believe the "stress test" bull**** propaganda from the politicians and oversight agencies.

Don't believe the fluff coming from Farnborough about some airlines buying aircraft on credit. These orders will evaporate into thin air once the credit used to back them disappears. MOL (and some other low-costs) have plenty of cash, are still profitable and can wait for the double dip recession to start biting when they are ready to place their orders.

As much as I dislike MOL (and his other low-life-low-cost management buddies), stupid they are not! Give it one more year for the world to be back into a recession, then give it one to two more years for Boeing or Airbus to beg RyanScare or Sleazy to "please please please" order some airplanes just to avoid mass redundancies and closure of production lines... :suspect:

callum

27th Jul 2010, 16:07

@ potkettleblack

Where does mol park his "spare" planes up? do they go to the desert?

bia botal

27th Jul 2010, 16:20

Where does mol park his "spare" planes up? do they go to the desert?

there are no planes parked up, the fleet is working to capacity, PKB is talking through his hole.

FR has by my quick maths around 3000 pilots (250ish airframes times 6 crews).

4 crews per aircraft.

As for orders for 787:ugh: usual company spin introduced when the possibility of large movement afoot. If and it's a pretty damn big "if" ryr goes for large jets it will 777 and there will be loads of them parked soon enough with the 787 starting full production soon enough.

HighLow

27th Jul 2010, 17:00

Bia,
very interested in your comments. To my knowledge there has been NO "COMPANY" spin with regard to a possible order of 787s, so how can you be sure that they would go for 777. Have you got this on good authority?

The fuel savings alone expected from brand new shiny 787 would I reckon be the forbidden fruit MOL would want to have a bite at.

Back to the point of this thread however:
MOL is facing a pilot shortage as we speak, and things are NOT going to get better for this guy if he keeps treating people like dirt.

If the shareholders want this airline to continue to grow into the future and not be left behind, either MOL shapes up or ships out !!!

McNulty

27th Jul 2010, 17:00

10 captains in the space of one week jumping ship to RHS in emirates.

stansdead

27th Jul 2010, 17:35

Just like in easy, Wizz, BMI Baby et al, this is only the BEGINNING.

Annus horribilis on it's way for all these carriers.

Reap/Sow.:ugh:

Aldente

27th Jul 2010, 19:40

Seems like there could be some truth in this rumour .....

Allegedly, Flt Ops management honcho PB and personnel sidekick have been touring some of the RYR bases on a charm offensive trying to persuade the 2500 hours SFO's (i.e. those ripe for command upgrade) to stay.

Seems like they are less than enamoured with the prospect of a left seat in a foreign base on a 5 on 3 off roster that doesn't allow them to commute back to UK on days off, and a basic salary lower than previously offered.

kotakota

27th Jul 2010, 20:55

Lets get some commonsense going here .
Of course young captains with the low-costs are going to jump ship and accept RHS with Emirates . They know they cannot face 30 years plus flying RYR . A few years RHS learning the ropes of longhaul , nightflights , monsoons , crap ATC etc while working for arguably the worlds most successful airline , is a small price to pay . By the time they are 40 they will have 'made it' for the 2nd time and left behind those fortunate enough to have got into BA / VS etc .
As for Ryanair , they will still be providing young wannabees with the chance to get into jets , and will have many of their current crop approaching command status .
The door may revolve a bit faster , training costs may escalate somewhat , but Ryanair will never run out of crew.

peacock1

27th Jul 2010, 21:01

Lets ust get one thing straight..... when FR are forced to cancel flights, this does NOT constitute "exceptional circumstances", that would allow FR to avoid paying compensation to the stranded pax.
Get the refunds ready, it's going to be a long, hot, (stranded!!), summer!

dannyalliga

27th Jul 2010, 21:23

Overheard in STN: about 50 FR pilots already heading for the sandpit and apparently about half are Captains...
Considering the EK hiring drive only started a couple of months ago and that most of the candidates are still to go through the selection I think those numbers can only get bigger and bigger.....:E:E:E:E:E

zerotohero

27th Jul 2010, 22:34

POTKETTLEBLACK

and too add where do you get the idea the crews are not working hard? I am doing nearly 5 days every roster, all captains I know are working all 5 days! and most people I talk too are the same.

so I ask you?

kotakota

27th Jul 2010, 23:21

All your points are valid ,but I am still correct in saying that RYR will find a way . One thing you can count on with MOL is that he WILL react to any threat / trend that he needs to.
Perhaps I omitted to mention the bleeding obvious that RYR take 250 hr wonders , and EK / EY / QR do not , they want the RYR guys with 2500 tt ( whatever it is ) which dovetails nicely with the gap to the RYR requirement for upgrade .
I suspect that RYR quite like their older skippers ( but would never admit it ) as they are less likely to move. Hardly surprising that they are ALWAYS looking for DECs despite their large contingent of suitable upgrades on the spot.
The good news is that the Gulf carriers insatiable demand for drivers is already starting the next 'shortage ' of pilots . In '88 BA started recruiting and it started a huge movement of pilots at every level of experience .This is a very similar scenario .
Todays newspapers / news are full of how airlines such as Singapore are experiencing quite startling growth and that the worlds airlines are looking at
good overall ( collective ) profits and growth for this year , despite the doom-mongers of only a few months ago.

Aldente

28th Jul 2010, 06:28

Quite so,

There will never be a problem filling the right seat at RYR (for the foreseable future anyway), there is a line a mile long of starry eyed wanabees fresh out of Oxford or wherever willing to sell their soul to fly a B738, and it only takes RYR a couple of months or so to get them on line.

However, if significant numbers of 2500 hour + F/O's leave, plus some of the younger Capts who as you say,realise that another 30 years in the LHS with RYR is unsustainable, then I can see a problem, especially if the supply of suitable DECs dry up.

With a relatively high failure rate of command upgrades (rumoured to be over 40 %), its filling the LHS that's going to be a problem for them.

PS

You're right about them "wanting" to hang on to the older Capt's , the company has been a lot more accommodating towards me recently !!
:)

bia botal

28th Jul 2010, 09:16

very interested in your comments. To my knowledge there has been NO "COMPANY" spin with regard to a possible order of 787s, so how can you be sure that they would go for 777. Have you got this on good authority?

The company has just thrown it out there via the erc in dublin. Like i said it's just spin, you may not have heard it yet, it just depends on how close to the axle you are when it starts. As for the fuel savings you suggest, you can buy an awful lot of gas with the difference in the price of a new 787 v and old 777.

There will i am sure be any amount of stories of how many people are leaving, how many guys have pulled off OCC courses, etc. i would imagine ryr will be the only ones who really know the truth, and for the remainder of this year i don't see a big problem as the winter slow down will ease pressure, but as we all know its the left seat thats a problem for them and with most captains already doing the odd day off for them to create stby's there is obviously a shortage, any captains leaving that are not being replaced by sfo is where the trouble starts for them, for every 4 that go it's a plane not operating next year, thats before you factor in new aircraft. We may well see a return to the days prior 06 when aircraft were wet leased to help run the schedule. Will it mean a change in the t&c conditions, properly in the short term not, will it mean mol walks around cursing the need for pilots at all, most certainly, the only way i would imagine that increases in t&c will happen will be on a one to one bases.

Lubeoil

28th Jul 2010, 09:32

Hello
Has anyone heard any rumours about RYR commencing any recruitment of rated and experienced FOs or is it still only rated Captains and new Cadets that they are interested in? Had hoped that with guys leaving demand for FOs with 2000 + hours would open up recruitment.

wind check

28th Jul 2010, 10:01

More than 2600+ CVs of fresh 200hrs CPL young guys are on Ryanair's Desk standing by, all willing to fly a beautiful B737-800 with a nice base in Europe, for just a few pennies :ok:
So people going to Emirates and other middle east companies will allow even cheaper new labour to join Ryanair. This is how it is at Ryanair.
Remeber, MOL is aiming to offer its passengers only free tickets ;)

As for people leaving Ryanair, they might see themselves even more p.issed off at Emirates, flying maximum hours/year on a fully automatic airplane, based in a hot, dry expensive country, far from everything :E

Callsign Kilo

28th Jul 2010, 10:20

Bia Botal has is right, no one will actually know what the actual crewing scenario is besides Ryanair itself. Rumour fills the air here like a thick fog. One day no body is leaving and the next day half the crew are upping sticks. Pilots are naturally inquisitive soles and have a burning interest in the next best thing. However when push comes to shove, actually making the commitment to move, especially far a field, doesn't come easy; no matter how serious they sound when chatting in the corner of the crewroom or at FL370.

It's fairly certain that FR will be losing crew in the coming months to the likes of Emirates; however I strongly doubt it is going to be a 'mass exodus.' We are all working hard at the moment which suggests that crewing levels are covering capacity. There are people working occasional days off, however as bia suggests; this is freeing up standby cover as and when. There has been no talk of crews doing regular out of base rotations, suffering from constant roster alterations or being under continual pressure to work a 6th day. That to me would be the real indicator that crewing are starting to suffer. Until then we appear set to ride this summer out. Crew levels will be more than adequate for the winter. Then potkettleblack will have his chance to see a few aircraft parked up!!

The continual rumbling is that we are short on Captains, however that's been the case since I joined. This, in my opinion, is based on projected growth. The airline knows that it needs to keep the flow to the LHS going. As for favouring DECs? I think its more based on the fact that it doesn't have any other option. The internal CU process doesn't even cover it, and that's even if everyone were to pass so I'm told. Plan B may indeed be hiring a few command ready FOs. However this has been attempted before and had limited success.

On the other hand, growth will eventually stop (within 2 to 3 years?) If we do hit a double dip recession then attrition will again be low. The burning desire for CUs and DECs will be a thing of the past. High time career FOs at Ryanair anyone? :confused:

Callsign Kilo

28th Jul 2010, 11:44

Mike, part agree, part disagree. Career airline it isn't however a recognised grounding for a future career path it is. I'm not sure if 'most' FOs believe that the grass is always greener. Whilst there isn't an ambition to remain here forever more, I think a few FOs have become wise to the fact that it is better to leave after a year in the LHS than leave from the right. Command time is and will remain a valued commodity. Whist a 2500 hour FO meets the minimum entry requirements for Emirates; he/she is as just about as useful as tits on a nun everywhere else!

gilbertmchris

28th Jul 2010, 19:32

If Ryanair ever gets short of FOs to upgrade there is plenty of young Turbo-prop commanders who would self fun a DEC... (I have heard the conversations)

"Wanted... Flybe captains with 2000 hours command on the Q400 who will take out a loan for a 73NG rating, at their own risk of not passing the line training"

Problem solved

It's a shame but people now are happy to get in more debt to advance their careers, just look at the adverts regularly on here, you can now pay for 500 hours 747 command time!

irishpilot1990

28th Jul 2010, 22:39

a few years ago when ryr had 900 pilots this would have been an issue..they say 5% of crew must leave before theres an issue... 5% of 2 and a half thousand pilots wont be leaving ryanair in near future...
also for those who feel the ryanair business model will have to change when pilots demand fair treatment and deals, well o leary selling a chunk of shares yesterday is fuel to your fire:ok:

ryanairpilotSTN

28th Jul 2010, 23:00

In Ryanair it is very simple to find out information if you ask a base supervisor or anyone in the offices in STN. So asked in STN tonight. The inflight supers have access to all reports in every base.

Exodus my ass - 9 Captains and 9 Copilots leaving in total over the next three months. Four to Emirates - 1 Cp and 3 Co-jo - 2 to FlyDubai a Cp and a CoJo. I know 2 of the CoJos leaving to Emirates and both failed command in STN twice. Over a year that is maybe 80-100 leaving in total out of 2600.

As trainers all briefed that 3 OCC courses cancelled - replaced with Command courses. DEC courses end next March. No plans to ever hire DE FO's as it takes winter and 2 SIMS to get into command process.

MugaB running crewing very tight. CoJos getting a lot of hours.

FR data very easy to find out. In STN the sign in sheet and Netline are on desks to all crew members and you can easily see how many crew in base and work out crewing from a/c numbers. It looks like we are down in STN to approx 160 Cp and 160 Fos which is really just enough for winter a/c. Same data easy to get at all other bases.

MugaB rumoured to be leaving FR for EZYland to fix the crewing issues which is what he did at Ryanair in 06. He looks ill to me - very gaunt. Good riddance.

Ryanair real problems are creating revenue. Straying from the model with all these long flights - ops I did on many Canaries flights with less than 50% last Winter.

Bizzare - Worked floating in DUB for a few weeks and carried up and down to ORK twice in a week a head marketing guy who seems to commute daily to DUB. Not very Ryanair style. We had to delay flights twice and lie for his commute. He never said as much as thanks. New commercial staff would help I think. There will be no pay increases unless they fix how to get more cash in the L1 door.

dannyalliga

29th Jul 2010, 00:46

Exodus my ass - 9 Captains and 9 Copilots leaving in total over the next three months. Four to Emirates - 1 Cp and 3 Co-jo - 2 to FlyDubai a Cp and a CoJo. I know 2 of the CoJos leaving to Emirates and both failed command in STN twice. Over a year that is maybe 80-100 leaving in total out of 2600.

Well this is what you know as far as STN is concerned so far, lots of people from many other bases attended the various roadshows EK held across Europe and quite a few of them will be going to DXB over the next few months for their selections.

As trainers all briefed that 3 OCC courses cancelled - replaced with Command courses. DEC courses end next March. No plans to ever hire DE FO's as it takes winter and 2 SIMS to get into command process.

Strange, quite a few OCC guys from Skyeurope and Olympic have been seen around lately.
It might take 1 winter and 2 sims to upgrade a DE FO, it takes around 3/4 years to upgrade a cadet in the best case (with around 50% failure rate).

111boy

29th Jul 2010, 00:50

ryanairpilotSTN

29th Jul 2010, 06:21

please don't suggest that you know everything from speaking to a base supervisor. It's inane to think that. People are leaving. A figure I heard today from a senior figure was 125. But who knows, and who really cares?

The super printed off the list of names for the whole airline - and 18 is the total leaving across the airlines in the next 3 months. I think it will be 100 leaving over a year but this is less than 5%. People do care and that is why they give data on this forum.

There is also lots of interesting audited data on the SEC 20f which is located here:-
SEC Info - Ryanair Holdings PLC - 20-F - For 3/31/10 (http://www.secinfo.com/d14D5a.r4TK1.htm)

OFDM

30th Jul 2010, 09:30

figure i heard was 125 pilots leaving (cpt +fo), secondhand info, but from someone i would expect to know. but who really cares, this is normal. you get a better offer, then you leave.

a look in the back of flight international the last few weeks shows that airlines outside the uk are beginning to hire, although our carriers are all still dead in the water. however, the international nature of ryanairs pilot workforce (with plenty of guys commuting during days off), means that there is no attachment to the uk or ireland or anywhere. flying in the sandpit would mean a big move for a brit, but for someone who's commuting to the uk from the far side of europe or is already living abroad, not really.

kotakota

30th Jul 2010, 09:42

Horses mouth ( TRI ) , apparently NO DECs for next year , T&Cs continue to deteriorate !!
So much for that !
I reckon the beancounters have detected the double-dip recession biting and would rather be temporarily short of crew ( if they have got it wrong ) than make the mistake ( to them of course ) of spending 1 cent for no reason .
My 2 cents.

Bokkenrijder

30th Jul 2010, 10:23

I regularly talk to some guys from Emirates down route, and what I hear from them does NOT make me want to fly for them. All of it (the brainwashing, the hard work, the STASI bullying tactics) remind me of my days in Easy. All of them look fatigued, overworked and NOT happy!

Sure, the lure of those shiny jets and 4 stripes is very appealing, but that's the problem with low-cost pilots in general: they only look at flying shiny jets and a quick upgrade (turbo prop --> Easy Ryan 737/A319 --> Emirates) but they always forget to look at the company! Out of the frying pan into the fire indeed! :ugh:

Everybody wants it NOW; the quick upgrades, the shiny jets etc. Nobody wants to invest time into a decent company and join at the bottom of a seniority list anymore. Well, guess what: there's a price you pay for those shiny jets and those quick 4 stripes, and that price is the very reason why people now want to leave Easy and Ryan in droves! Don't make the same mistake again, if you want to leave then leave for something significantly better!

I would seriously recommend against anyone leaving a (lousy) European company with poor T&C's to fly for a (lousy) Middle Eastern company with poor T&C's, unless you're happy with the career model of always being underpaid, overworked yet flying a shiny jet with 4 stripes!

Even if you're not that happy now in Easy or Ryan you're still in Europe, and not an immigrant worker in a desert police state without any basic human rights, basically on par with these poor Pakistani and Bangladeshi workers who are slaving away on the next skyscraper.

Your much better off getting your act together and make that European company a better place to stay and work!

Now that would seriously p!ss off MOL! ;)

dannyalliga

30th Jul 2010, 11:52

Even if you're not that happy now in Easy or Ryan you're still in Europe, and not an immigrant worker in a desert police state without any basic human rights

Consider this: european FR pilot working 900hrs a year and making as a captain what an F/O makes in EK, without pension, without loss of licence,without healthcare, based 2/3 hours flight time away from home (maybe in an eastern european Baltic base or at the far south bottom of Europe),without tickets for his family, having to pay for uniform/ID/medicals/SIMS/hotels, forced to accept paycuts in case he gets the base of choice, forced to accept paycuts in case he upgrades to the left seat and other very civilized and democratic practices...
Dubai might not be the country of freedom but surely Emirates is a major step up as far as basic T&C's goes if compared to FR and considering the very young average age of the FR pilot population there are hundreds willing to give it a try.

Your much better off getting your act together and make that European company a better place to stay and work!

:}:}:}:}:}

bingofuel

30th Jul 2010, 12:14

How can a pilot, who is self employed, leave an airline?

Bokkenrijder

30th Jul 2010, 12:28

dannyalliga, that kind of short term, vicious circle thinking will always get people into crappy companies, yet never out of their misery...

Like spineless fools looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, they leave and prostitute themselves to the next slave/camel driver for a couple of pennies extra, instead of staying and improving their current situation.

It's pretty obvious which way those psychological airline entry tests are biased when it comes to "fight of flight" questions! ;)

dannyalliga

30th Jul 2010, 12:54

Bokkenrijder,

are you referring to FR pilots in your speech?To those that pay 30k euros to get into the right seat and that accept base changes/paycuts/less days off to go to the left seat?
You are talking about modern prostitutes here my friend, there is no pride nor any sort of attachment to the brand nor the flag in FR pilots, no sense of belonging whatsoever.
The recipe is lacking the basic ingredients for any kind of pro-active action.
The very same ingredients are however perfect for those who are in constant search for something more and willing to betray anyone for gold.

That's why Emirates is the most common topic during the cruise at Ryanair....

Bokkenrijder

30th Jul 2010, 15:24

Dubai might not be the country of freedom but surely Emirates is a major step up as far as basic T&C's goes if compared to FR and considering the very young average age of the FR pilot population there are hundreds willing to give it a try.That's why Emirates is the most common topic during the cruise at Ryanair.... Guys, I suggest you read the various EK threads on this website. Don't just sit in a FR cockpit and talk about EK with the guy/gal sitting in the seat next to you! They're probably as young, dumb, naive and clueless as yourself and are willing to brush all the negative things under the carpet because they get turned on by the sight of an EK A380.

As I said, I regularly meet and talk to EK pilots all over the world and the picture they paint is not a pretty one... :{

I've seldom seen such naivety and stupidity written;

you should know Ryanair's core philosophy is to drive DOWN costs (including labour) at ALL costs.So what do you think EK is all about? You really think it's philanthropy in the UAE? Do you think they offer you even one Dollar/Dirham too much for living in DXB? :rolleyes: Ryanair will spot the reduction in staffing levels and will immediately offer direct entry Captains decent contracts.Same for EK! Lot's of F/O's pilots have been screwed (read: bypassed!) by DEC's in EK.You are talking about modern prostitutes here my friend, there is no pride nor any sort of attachment to the brand nor the flag in FR pilots, no sense of belonging whatsoever.Good you'll like it in DXB then, because you will not find any pride in being a 3rd rate worker without a right to unionize in the UAE! You'll have the 'status' right in between a camel and a woman (a local gal that is!). Western woman are just wh*res in the eyes of the locals and the Asian domestic help are good enough to have their passports confiscated and used as modern day slaves.

This is the way is has ever been and how it always shall be at Ryanair.You poor spineless guys will reap what you sow. With such an attitude EK will quickly discover that you guys are weak pushovers (if they haven't figured this out already!) and give you the same FR treatment. You guys will be perfect for the job: an employment history of not being a 'troublemaker,' too lazy and cowardly to grab the bull by the horns at home, and naive enough to think you can sail into a 'respectable' airline just because they fly wide bodies and pay slightly more. Hahahaha! Dream on!

You poor misguided souls never really thought this thing through now did you? EK is nothing more than a sort of 'higher cost' long haul version of FR, complete with cabin crew from the 3rd world and pilots desperate enough to join them. And of desperate and naive pilots there seems to be an endless supply... :}

Final tip: have a look on Youtube and search for documentaries about the UAE, what it means to have debts you can't pay off (mortgage..) and how they treat foreign workers. Last week there was a good documentary on the BBC about this issue and here's the result from a quick search;

YouTube - The Human Cost Of Dubai's Economic Meltdown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN8yuUUfS0M)

YouTube - The Human Cost Of Dubai's Economic Meltdown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN8yuUUfS0M)

Final tip: don't be stupid, naive and ill prepared, read the threads about EK here on PPRuNe!!!!!!!

Bokkenrijder

30th Jul 2010, 15:47

It's about RYANAIR pilots thinking to leave for greener pastures!

Perhaps you should read the title one more time: "Ryanair exodus, what's the plan?"

You guys talk too much! Get into reading! ;)

Bokkenrijder

30th Jul 2010, 15:53

Ok then! ;)

dannyalliga

30th Jul 2010, 17:03

Bokkenrijder,

two things are for sure:
1- you don't like EK
2- you don't know FR

There are quite a few former FR guys already flying in the sandpit and those are the best ones to talk to.
Stats are also pretty much in favor of EK with tens of guys going their way and just a handful coming this way (DEC who then become base captains in the place of choice...:E:E).

Future prospects are also an issue here:
-FR will receive its last 50 aircraft in the next 2 years and then there's no more expansion planned.
-EK will almost double its size in the next 5 years.

Prostitutes know their chickens.....

Bokkenrijder

30th Jul 2010, 18:24

two things are for sure:
1- you don't like EK
2- you don't know FRWell, let's see;

1) Here's (http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/334128-emirates-ek-interview-all-you-need-know-about-threads-merged-113.html#post5839248) a quote from the EK thread, from a guy who actually flies there: Dubai is perhaps the most unethical and duplicitious greedy city on the planet.EK basically makes FR look like a summer camp! :cool:

2) Here's a quote from yourself: Consider this: european FR pilot working 900hrs a year and making as a captain what an F/O makes in EK, without pension, without loss of licence,without healthcare, based 2/3 hours flight time away from home (maybe in an eastern european Baltic base or at the far south bottom of Europe),without tickets for his family, having to pay for uniform/ID/medicals/SIMS/hotels, forced to accept paycuts in case he gets the base of choice, forced to accept paycuts in case he upgrades to the left seat and other very civilized and democratic practices...I do know FR, and FR is also on the list of companies that I would never fly for! :)

Anyway, do whatever you want, you claim to know it all. Selling your @ss, errr soul to MOL wasn't the smartest thing to begin with, and doing it all again in Dubai is a sign that you haven't leaned a thing.

I see your predicament however. By making a pact with MOL and helping FR to become a success you've dragged down T&C's in Europe, and you lack the backbone to fight for good T&C's yourself. There is no way out, no major EU carrier will take you, so the only escape you see is by fleeing to the Middle East. You folks have boxed yourself into a corner. Checkmate! :ugh:

Don't say I didn't warn you! ;)

Bokkenrijder

30th Jul 2010, 18:31

Future prospects are also an issue here:
-FR will receive its last 50 aircraft in the next 2 years and then there's no more expansion planned.
-EK will almost double its size in the next 5 years.So let me guess: the EK expansion is limitless? The sky is the limit in DXB? I'm sure FR a few years ago perhaps also said they would double their fleet.

So does a big fleet and a rapid expansion automatically mean good T&C's? Answer: just look at the FR fleet and their massive expansion over the last decade! Frying pan --> fire! ;)

The dumbness in your logic is absolutely mind boggling! How you ever passed a psychological IQ test is beyond me. No wonder T&C's in FR are so bad... :zzz:

Monarch Man

30th Jul 2010, 18:50

EK basically makes FR look like a summer camp!

I take it you failed day 1 of selection.......:hmm:

There is no way out, no major EU carrier will take you, so the only escape you see is by fleeing to the Middle East

Or perhaps there are some who are fleeing the over taxed and overpriced place that is now Euroland?

In any case Bokkenrijder, you are either talking out of a place that doesn't see the light of day that often, or you are pushing your own personal agenda (heaven forbid..on PPrune???)

The usual protagonists jump up and down (moan) about EK, and yes there are all the challenges they speak of, plus a few more besides...however the extent and severity are typically overstated and misrepresented, as are the multitude of other little things that can p1ss one off living in this part of the world.
Guess what, I quite like it here, I have a lovely villa, my wife enjoys a damn sight better quality of life than she did back in europe, she drives a big big SUV that the locals avoid TYVM as even allah wont make them invunerable:}, and best of all, I dont even have to worry about driving to work.
I've worked for 2 carriers in the EU region, one of which you can guess who...and despite working bloody hard at times..when you swim with the tide, this place is the easiest flying job in the world.
Its ok Bokkenrijder, you vent some steam old son, meanwhile I'll take my 20 pieces of silver, my EPC discounts and various other little incentives...I'll listen to the management BS....say thanks very much, and go home and sit by the pool:ok:

I should also add that according to my sources in HR, the recruitment drive is the Ryanair/Easyjet show at the moment.

Bokkenrijder

30th Jul 2010, 19:22

I take it you failed day 1 of selection.......:hmm:No, but it's always sad to see people using this line in order to diffuse criticism. I take it you failed the BA selection then because you ended up in EK.....? :hmm:

When I left Easy I decided to not take any half measures and I am now working for one of the major airlines in Europe. (I say this not to boast, just to illustrate that I did not want to end up from the frying pan into the fire).

I have no particular axe to grind regarding EK, except that I strongly recommend against it following what I've seen during my layovers in the Middle East.

Anyway, have fun in EK and DXB!

Monarch Man

30th Jul 2010, 19:38

I take it you failed the BA selection then because you ended up in EK.....?

Nope, never even applied...I worked for another operator, the one with a big V on the tail :ok:

Callsign Kilo

30th Jul 2010, 21:14

Jeez Bokkenrijder you really are Captain Self Righteous! People like you give me a sore head. One minute you are telling all us lo-co boys and girls that we are spineless sell outs and those of us who dare try something different are cowards who aren't prepared to stick around and improve our lot! Is that what you did when you left Ezy for your top European airline then? And don't retract and say you left for a fantastic lifestyle and hard fought terms and conditions. And even if you did, you probably did little to achieve them - you inherited them!

To be quite honest you know nothing about FR. It amounts to what you perceive. The same way that you perceive EK is a nasty little outfit which comes no where near your ivory tower legacy carrier. Just because you talk to a few crew members down route doesn't give you the whole picture. I too have heard that it isn't all what it is cracked up to be, however; like Monarch Man, I have met many who are extremely content. Same with guys in both Ryanair and EasyJet. However because you believe it to be crap, then its crap; and that's it! I think it is a noble trait to sometimes show an open mind. Maybe showing an objective opinion, rather than berating everyone with your holier
than thou speech might be more helpful.

Remember that the industry that we work in is extremely fickle. It's wonderful bragging that you will take your moral high ground by exclaiming that you will never work for the likes of FR or EK. I know quite a number who have said exactly the same thing. Guess what happened.....

Blue-Footed Boobie

30th Jul 2010, 23:54

Back to the thread if you please.. instead of bitching and throwing Handbags at each other.

PPRuNeUser0204

31st Jul 2010, 09:15

Like spineless fools looking for a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow, they leave and prostitute themselves to the next slave/camel driver for a couple of pennies extra, instead of staying and improving their current situation.

It's pretty obvious which way those psychological airline entry tests are biased when it comes to "fight of flight" questions!

That's a bit rich Bokkenrijder considering you threw your toys out the pram and left easyJet for what was it, Virgin Nigeria?

Shadowsonclouds

31st Jul 2010, 09:29

Like many others I too am keen to apply for EK from FR.

I'm currently just shy of the required hours but very shortly will be there.

What do you guys think will happen to DEC requirements at EK for the upcoming new decade? I hear stories of guys waiting a long time for upgrades over there, but obviously with new aircraft hopefully some will make the jump over to the LHS.

One thing that sits in my mind though is, generally speaking; Ryanair does get a lot of negative press here on Pprune, but there are quite a few to back it up. But EK on the other hand there are far a few between any people willing to defend it. Is that a blatant warning sign?!

Back to the thread I suppose!

I just wish my roster would pick up....too many times flights are given away to low hour FOs which doesn't make too much sense given the Training guys are always saying how short they are of CU's...surely it's time to push the guys closer to the upgrade process than let all the other guys take all the long days...maybe just me!

OFDM

1st Aug 2010, 11:24

Bokkenrijder

that is the most hypocritical self righteous rubbish i've ever read on here.

why do some people have to act like its a religion to them? i just go to work to earn money. one day i'll do the secure checklist for the last time and do something else. just because the middle east aint for you old son, others might fancy it. personally its not for me, i think it gets less attractive the older you get, but if you were in your mid twenties, it could be a bit of an adventure for a few years.. why not?

we all know that ryan isnt a job for life, so stop banging on about it and acting holier than thou, you just do it to get into the industry or to get jet experience or get an upgrade fast or because your last airline went bust and you needed to feed the wife and kids.

hec7or

1st Aug 2010, 17:40

because your last airline went bust and you needed to feed the wife and kids

Oh how so true:{, how true that is!!

Bokkenrijder

1st Aug 2010, 18:31

YouTube - How to Cope With a Pilot Shortage 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQZShQcMPfY)
YouTube - How to Cope With a Pilot Shortage 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wDF9VQz9Vw&feature=channel)
YouTube - How to Cope With a Pilot Shortage 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQL_xLJh22U&feature=channel)
YouTube - How to Cope With a Pilot Shortage 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbRDnMlDkUI&feature=channel)
YouTube - How to Cope With a Pilot Shortage 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyJw2dRRmOc&feature=channel)
YouTube - How to cope with a pilot shortage 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdl3YixPFxE&feature=channel)

YouTube - Our Darkest Hour episode 1.m4v (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZvZ9__OSJc&feature=channel)
YouTube - Our Darkest Hour episode 2.m4v (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NlgPJTbgGo&feature=channel)
YouTube - Our Darkest Hour episode 3.m4v (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzH24BOP040&NR=1)
YouTube - Our Darkest Hour episode 4.m4v (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3awC5lMOx0&feature=related)
YouTube - Our Darkest Hour episode 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIy77Y_vHD8&feature=related)

Here's (http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/407041-middle-east-management-videos.html) the thread where you can read all the comments and don't forget to look at the "location" field of the posters!

Wow, so FR must be even worse if someone wants to work for such an outfit?! Well, enjoy those BBQ's! :eek:

As for Sabena, no I never worked for them as I was in flight training when they went bankrupt. However, I'm working for a very reputable airline just over the border! Salut! ;)

go around flaps15

2nd Aug 2010, 00:53

100 percent self righteous clown.

Bokkenrijder

2nd Aug 2010, 04:57

I think Shadowsonclouds is onto something here:One thing that sits in my mind though is, generally speaking; Ryanair does get a lot of negative press here on PPRuNe, but there are quite a few to back it up. But EK on the other hand there are far a few between any people willing to defend it. Is that a blatant warning sign?!Yes it is Shadowsonclouds! Rather than most of your stupid colleagues, it's refreshing to see that some people can still engage in some critical thinking in Ryanair! :ok:

If some people 'tink' that I'm a clown for pointing out an inconvenient truth, fair enough, but all those people posting on the Middle Eastern forum and EK threads can't all be 100 percent self righteous clowns, now can they? ;)

go around flaps15

2nd Aug 2010, 10:43

Callsign Kilo hit the nail on the head. You know nothing about FR.

Stop talking absolute crap.

Or just tell me then what I am taking per year(FO) on average with FR?

Tell me about my roster?

Tell me about the really good and very capable people I work with?

Tell me the REAL downsides? ( There are some as with every company)

Not just drivel that you concocted from your high stool in between sucking on your daily ration of Cow and Gate.

Mister Geezer

2nd Aug 2010, 10:51

At the end of the day Emirates is not a bad company to work for! The million dollar question is can you cope with moving and living abroad? The catch twenty two here is that unless you have done it previously, then it is somewhat difficult to provide an answer prior to moving!

It is pointless having a dig at those Ryanair pilots who choose to move to Emirates. Moving to emirates is very much a personal decision since there are far more issues out of work, that one needs to consider prior to moving!

Bokkenrijder

2nd Aug 2010, 11:01

go-around flaps 15, if it's so wunderbar in FR why then are people planning an exodus? ;)

My only point is that EK in particular or the Middle East in general is not a very realistic alternative for people who want to improve their life. Either improve life in FR (next to impossible due to union-busting fence sitters like yourself!), move to a good European company or perhaps consider a company like Cathay Pacific for those wanting an ex-pat experience.
BTW, despite the image they want to put on, EK is no CX, not by a loooong shot!

Here's what a FR colleague of yours wrote. These are his words, not mine:Consider this: european FR pilot working 900hrs a year and making as a captain what an F/O makes in EK, without pension, without loss of licence,without healthcare, based 2/3 hours flight time away from home (maybe in an eastern european Baltic base or at the far south bottom of Europe),without tickets for his family, having to pay for uniform/ID/medicals/SIMS/hotels, forced to accept paycuts in case he gets the base of choice, forced to accept paycuts in case he upgrades to the left seat and other very civilized and democratic practices...In all fairness, FR and U2 are not the worst low-cost companies to work for (when compared to Wizzair, Vueling etc) so it's best to stay put before selling the house, the car moving the family for a similar job/company in Dubai where you have even less workers rights than in that 'frecking' Irish outfit!

Have a look at those Youtube links that I posted earlier! Again, those are not my words, but this is the sentiment in EK. You'll always have some unhappy people in every company, whether it's BA, KLM, AF, LH etc, but when there are so many unhappy people posting on PPRuNe there must be something seriously wrong!

BTW, it's not my intention to slagg off FR! If someone is happy doing short haul low-cost working for MOL then nobody is putting a gun to their head to move to the desert. However, for those that are not happy doing 4 sector days until retirement (like I once was in Easy!) I would not recommend moving to Dubai or the Middle East.
The job, the fatigue, the company mentality are just too similar, it's just a bigger jet. :=

dannyalliga

3rd Aug 2010, 00:07

Bokkenrijder,

you talk about FR quoting my words 'cause you don't really know FR, then you talk about EK quoting what they say in the middle east forum 'cause again you don't have any first hand info.
You said you now work in a EU legacy carrier coming from Easyjet, you surely joined as an F/O at the bottom of the seniority with many years before upgrade awaiting you.

Well I happen to know personally a few guys in EK who joined about 4/5 years ago and all apart from 1 are Captains now; none of them says it's the best job on earth but they all agree that it's far better than FR, and 2 of them are former FR pilots.
The other day I was jumpseating and the guy up front was a DEC coming from a EU legacy carrier that went bust, he said quite a few of his former colleagues went to EK even accepting a right hand seat and that they are all quite happy.
He had also applied but didn't pass the psycho tests:E:E

Mikehotel152

3rd Aug 2010, 17:40

go-around flaps 15, if it's so wunderbar in FR why then are people planning an exodus? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

You are funny, my antelope-riding friend. You're like the media who make up a story and then quote their own allegations as evidence that the story has credence. It's already been shown that there is little or no truth in the rumour of a 'mass exodus'...

As for life in FR, in the short time I've been with the company I've met plenty of pilots who have been there for 10+ years. That doesn't prove anything. For some people, the old saying 'better the devil you know' is less a metaphor and more an uncomfortable reality. That said, you can earn a decent living, flying interesting routes, with FR. I really don't see the issue with 4 sector days? The rest of the world works 8 hour days. It certainly doesn't bother me.

If you see flying as a well paid sinecure and not a job, I cannot relate to your point of view. For some people a job with EK in the Middle East might be an attractive option. It sounds like it's not all bad news.

767200ER

7th Aug 2010, 11:34

Fresh off the press, everyone is leaving ryanair for EK and the operation is shutting down!

Honestly, some of the garbage you lot argue about on here is just insane, a LOT of airlines are losing pilots to EK, its always been the case,its just more so now that they lowered their minimum entry requirements... you will get FR pilots complaining about FR, you will get EK pilots complaining about EK, human beings always complain :ok:

bia botal

10th Aug 2010, 08:38

I would not recommend moving to Dubai or the Middle East.
The job, the fatigue, the company mentality are just too similar, it's just a bigger jet.

They don't seem to believe you old chap, or have just quite simple had enough of there treatment at the hands of cost cutting king for the resignations are beginning to climb. And word has it that there is now going to be a "reasons to stay at ryanair" roadshow, with free cups of coffee etc being used to entice people to stay. :cool: that-ort-a do it>:ugh:

superced

10th Aug 2010, 09:02

Consider this: european FR pilot working 900hrs a year and making as a captain what an F/O makes in EK, without pension, without loss of licence,without healthcare, based 2/3 hours flight time away from home (maybe in an eastern european Baltic base or at the far south bottom of Europe),without tickets for his family, having to pay for uniform/ID/medicals/SIMS/hotels, forced to accept paycuts in case he gets the base of choice, forced to accept paycuts in case he upgrades to the left seat and other very civilized and democratic practices...

and some people are proud of that....:yuk:

low cost .... :D:

wind check

10th Aug 2010, 09:36

EK pilots also work hard, max hours, max duties, minimum rest. Same **** I would say.

Callsign Kilo

10th Aug 2010, 10:01

Hey superced - the voice of understanding, balanced opinion and reason!

Your argument is EXACTLY the way it happens. EXACTLY :ugh:

low cost .:D...

Didn't you once apply to EasyJet?

superced

10th Aug 2010, 10:57

I've been working for easyJet for the last two years....

Callsign Kilo

10th Aug 2010, 12:14

Lucky them

superced

10th Aug 2010, 12:28

yes I think so.....:ugh:

OFDM

10th Aug 2010, 12:54

doh :O

CK, that was a rubbish reply

Norman Stanley Fletcher

12th Aug 2010, 11:06

As is so often the case, the first casualty of war is truth. All discussions about Ryanair are so emotive, not least because some people have no idea of how to conduct themselves in a debate. I am particularly entertained by 'go around flaps 15' who has invited all those with 'real' knowledge of Ryanair to tell him his monthly pay, roster, inside leg measurement etc. Presumably his fellow contributors are not clairvoyant and therefore, in common with 99% of his colleagues who actually work at Ryanair, do not have ready access to that information either.

As a long-term easyJet pilot with more than a passing interest in Ryanair, I think that many people, both in and out of the much-derided Irish emporium, have missed the point in this discussion. The key issue for both easyJet and Ryanair piots is that, due to their sheer size, it is no longer possible for all the disaffected to leave and go elsewhere. Both companies employ around 2000 pilots (no doubt others will grace us with more precise figures) and it is just not possible for that many pilots to go elsewhere. Therefore it is vital that pilots within both companies decide to fight for their futures where they are, rather than dream their lives away into Emirates or Etihad. The only credible way to do that is with union backing. Ryanair pilots decided to go it alone without BALPA - many are mightily proud they did so. Therefore they must face the inevitable consequences of that choice, but at easyJet we are still on the field of battle despite our widely-publicised operational issues. As one happily committed to living out his professional career in the low-cost sector, I intend to fight tooth and nail to ensure that the success of companies such as my own is shared by all rather than just a few. The reality for many low-cost pilots is that this is where they too will live out their professional careers. They would be well-advised to join a union and fight for their futures where they are, rather than just fight for a way out the door.

go around flaps15

16th Aug 2010, 13:30

Glad you found it amusing Norman. Like most of your posts and indeed your beloved union, about as useful as an ashtry on a motorbike.

Never agreed with much you had to say to be honest.

As always though in this beautiful world one of the most basic rights is the right to an opinion.

And I will afford you the respect you deserve for voicing your opinion. And on some of the points you made towards the end of your previous post all I have to say is this.

If only everything was that simple Norman.

Aldente

16th Aug 2010, 13:40

At least he can spell ......

go around flaps15

16th Aug 2010, 15:04

So can I. I saw the error in my ways.

JW411

16th Aug 2010, 15:44

I saw the error in my ways;

Or perhaps;

I saw the error of my ways?

Craggenmore

16th Aug 2010, 18:59

EK pilots also work hard, max hours, max duties, minimum rest. Same **** I would say.

But only 1 sector to prepare and fly which I think would make a huge difference.

Callsign Kilo

16th Aug 2010, 23:46

I don't know, six sectors go pretty quickly! There's nothing quite like a 250/25 gusting 35 at somewhere like Leeds to envigorate the senses!! You can keep your DXB-LAX ultra long haul operations!!! :E However I wish all my ex colleagues well in their pursuit of Arabian happiness. Best of luck.

Ryr1

17th Aug 2010, 09:37

Ek is the better job for sure.
The question you have to ask yourself is, will your wife be happy in Dubai. It's allright for us because we would get out of that place on a regular bases.
For those who are single it's an easy choice. :ok:

Jet A1

17th Aug 2010, 15:57

"For those who are single it's an easy choice."

But be careful, so much as smile at a bit of skirt and its the clink for you both ! Unless you're married to the forementioned skirt.

babemagnet

17th Aug 2010, 16:20

fly dubai is also hiring now again!

Direct Entry Captains - Middle East - Aviation

flydubai began operations on 01 June 2009 and, in little over one year, has expanded its fleet to 9 aircraft flying to 22 destinations. With more brand new Next-Generation Boeing 737s on order and a delivery schedule that sees an aircraft delivered every month until the end of 2011, flydubai is now the Middle East's fastest growing low-cost carrier and is looking for Boeing 737 captains to become part of the success story.

So, if you're type-rated on B737-300 to 900 (NG/EFIS) aircraft, current within the last 24 months and have a minimum of 5,000 hours total flying time with an overall command time of 1,500 hours (of which 1,000 hours are in command of B737-300 to 900 NG/EFIS type aircraft), we're keen to hear from you.

In addition to a tax-free salary of approximately USD 14,000 per month, which includes housing and transport allowances, we provide free medical, loss of licence and life insurance cover, an educational support allowance for up to 3 children and the opportunity to live in the vibrant and culturally-diverse commercial hub of the Middle East that's got something to offer everyone.

We're not able to respond to all applicants. Only those selected for interview will be contacted.

superced

17th Aug 2010, 16:56

I don't know, six sectors go pretty quickly

one more bull**** from somebody without experience....

pilot999

17th Aug 2010, 19:16

supersted you stink of something far worse.:ok: Man you spend so much time on the ryanair forums , i wonder if you failed the selection process and unfortunatley had to go to Eze jet. maybe your mum did not give you enough cuddles.

go around flaps15

17th Aug 2010, 22:16

Nice spot. Well done to you.

wayupthere

23rd Aug 2010, 11:30

There has been no talk of crews doing regular out of base rotations, suffering from constant roster alterations or being under continual pressure to work a 6th day.

thats amazing all the pilots in my base have all of the above. The other day i got a call begging me to work my day off only to remind them i was on my way to another base for the week. AND all that on a 5/3 roster :8

Maybe there not doing it to crews in the bigger bases to hide whats really going on?

escapeeRYR

23rd Aug 2010, 11:40

I`ll second that. Numerous calls from rostering, asking for working on days off. Maybe not an exodus of pilots, but something is going on...

OFDM

23rd Aug 2010, 14:07

lots of guys are being asked to work days off, otherwise the standby cover is too thin - i can only assume due to people leaving in greater than expected numbers

its a neat trick whereby pilot A is asked to work a day off and thinks oh good extra dosh. Pilot B who was originally rostered that flight as part of his normal work pattern is put on standby. then they do the same thing in reverse. both pilots may think they're gaining, if they havent thought it through. but they're actually both losing and the cost to the company is zero. i suppose this allows you to generate standby cover in any quantity required, meaning you can operate the same schedule, robustly, with fewer pilots and save ££££. if you think about it - there isn't much incentive to work days off.

Whippersnapper

24th Aug 2010, 19:27

Only partially accurate. If I'm not doing anything at home, I'll generally work days off as each one gets me £230 net plus the flight pay. If they take another day's flights away to put me on sby, I'm still £230 up, and that will have cost the company that amount plus 40% in tax. It's the contractors who don't get any extra as they don't get "day off payments", so in their shoes I'd refuse to work days off. I'll do the 900 per year either wway, so the total flight pay will be the same, but for every day off I work, thats another £230 I wasn't expecting.

As said, though, some thing's going on because there seem to be a lot more Capts working days off, more FOs covering other bases and even Base Captains flying weekends. FOs going through the command selection and training programmes are being given all sorts of promises as to base requests, not necessarily for their original base if it's a popular one, but assurances are being made of getting their first choice of available slots and a "soon as possible" transfer to their prime desired base.

There is no doubt we're short of commanders and are losing too many eligible promotees. Sadly, cadets are two-a-penny, so I suspect they will continue to get an ever decreasing value of contracts, but I hope the shortage of command material will encourage the company to look after its senior FOs and Capts more appropriately.

thebeast

25th Aug 2010, 11:24

the questions are always thye same with loads of people stuck in bases they dont want to be and many now on 5 /3 trying to commute.

'any chance of a transfer to xyz'....... 'not for a year'

'how about any base in the uk?'......'not this year'

The way i see is that if your living away from home you may aswell go to the desert and get more money.

bountyhunter

25th Aug 2010, 11:31

Plenty of people are being asked to work days off across all the bases at the moment, as described above. Unfortunately it's untrue that all command upgrades are getting their base of choice.

Sky Goose

25th Aug 2010, 12:28

Mikehotel152,

Have the same situation, asked to work 2 off days, and I'm pretty sure that, my 'on' days will change to sby.

Must say I really dont know what their plan is, I worked one day out of five this block and I see there are at least 2 out of base f/o's at our base. Surely its cheaper to fly us, as they dont have to pay the extra 20, for out of base flying....whats up?

Also coming up to command, about 2700 hours now, I have a young family and am wondering how it will work commuting on a 5/3.
If the desert option is better for family life, that will have to be the one I take.
They really have to introduce some seniority list for bases, I cant be stuck in some sheit hole with no concrete promise of a desirable base so I can settle said family there.

We shall see what they come up with, if anything, commuting indefinitely on a 5/3 with a family is simply not an option.

zuz

25th Aug 2010, 18:27

Another nice touch is direct entry Capts starting at Stn while new upgrades are being sent all over the network and being told no return in the immediate future.

FRying

25th Aug 2010, 20:21

Great memories flashing back to my mind....

Leave, people. LEAVE ! As soon as you can.

bia botal

26th Aug 2010, 09:49

Leave, people. LEAVE ! As soon as you can.

Have to say i totally agree, only chance of a good future in ryr is a mass exodus. For if they do what i think they are going to do and that is to reverse lower start salaries for new captain, transfers away etc, it's cost them nothing really, just got them a couple of years with guys on lowers pays, so new skippers will get told, hey look we'll give you the same as all the other guys, please stay. So you do, and guess what, they go "well that worked", f&ck giving anyone else a pay rise, we are crewed for another year.
Nothing in it for the rest of us, 2 quarter losses again this winter, status-quo.

Cloud Bunny

26th Aug 2010, 11:50

Why's PB going round the bases? What's the point? Does he really think that going round the bases asking guys to stay will make any difference? Does he really think he has that much clout and think everyone thinks so much of him that if we think we've upset him by looking to move that we'll immediately reverse any plans or decisions that have already been made?
Why can't they see that all they've got to do is to stop treating us like poo, and provide an incentive to get promoted!! Cash and a stable home life (trying to commute from the southern tip of Italy on a 5/3 roster is no life) would be a start. Then we can take it from there.
I know EK has many imperfections, but they are few compared with the crap we have to put up with here and it should come as no surprise that people are looking to leave in whatever numbers, tens, hundreds, thousands who knows.
Whats going to happen when the economy finally picks up and other airlines open their doors - BA, Virgin, Cathay etc etc. FR wont have anyone left. But their constant short sightedness wont allow them to see that, particularly if they truely believe that PB on a begging mission will make the slightest difference. It wont.

cumulustratus

26th Aug 2010, 12:31

Can anyone who attended the recent Peter Bellew info sessions shed some light on the actual topics of discussions?

Of course there's some instance of it directed at getting people to stay in the company, but were there actually any promises (not that that'd be worth anything). E.g. base changes, upgrades with better conditions etc.

cuberoute

26th Aug 2010, 12:51

Emirates Pilot roadshows are planned for London on the following dates ..

20th Sept Gatwick
21st Sept Stanstead
22nd Sept Stanstead
23rd Sept Luton
24th Sept Manchester

I suppose it will be in the press in the near future ! !

They need lots of pilots ..If you read the Emirates press 2 widebodies to be delivered every month for the next 12 years ....
777, 380 , 350 etc etc :ok:

Good luck

Stay tuned .

Dani

26th Aug 2010, 14:46

They still give you the same promisses as they always did:

EK is a good company.
You will fly nice aircraft.
Upgrade is 3 years +
Commuting is not forseen.

Basically, it's the truth.

q1W2e3R4t5

27th Aug 2010, 10:39

I have heard so much talk over the last month from different sources in multiple bases about Capts and FOs leaving in larger numbers than the number that appeared in a memo today. Why even send a memo like this if you are not trying to stop the rumours. To state that we have enough crew simply doesnt stick. Something is going badly wrong at the moment whether it be a staff or roster problem.

On the topic of working extra days, I have like others been asked to work days off.

Reference being asked to work a 5 day week plus an off day which then turns into 4 and 2 standbys, that has never happened for me and I can only think it is to enable there to be cover which would not have been unless someone worked a day off in some of the bigger bases.

As we approach the winter with reducing flights this might be enough to ease the problem but it will come back with a bang next year.

Whippersnapper

27th Aug 2010, 11:05

Maybe they planned to work the roster this way, using up much more hours in the summer and spreading the flying thinner over the winter, trying to streamline the number of crew, but they're having problems already this summer and the new aircraft combined with losses to EK and elsewhere (some guys in their mid 30s are giving up on aviation altogether and retraining in other professions), and we could well end up next summer in the position EZY are currently facing.

I thing the company really needs to up its game with terms and conditions as well as pay scales if it's not going to face melt down next summer. But, then, what would I know as a line shag?

pilot999

27th Aug 2010, 11:12

Exactly ! what do you know? nought!

RAT 5

28th Aug 2010, 11:32

Could the pressure on crews in the summer have something to do with how many a/c RYR expect to park during the winter? Crew up for the winter schedules, plus an X%, and hope you can muddle through the summer with no/little leave and crews filling in on days off and gamble having too few SBY's. Been there, done that; it's an old trick and will work only if everyone says yes. It's called cost saving, but they don't tell you it's being planned. What is true, it can not be sustained indefinitely. It is a short term cost saving measure, but it will bite back.

D O Guerrero

8th Sep 2010, 09:03

There's a Human Resources Department?

Kernow 101

8th Sep 2010, 10:32

No FO recruitment at the moment, only cabin crew....:p

DRM1973

8th Sep 2010, 11:03

Just to throw my 2 pence worth in, I know from talking to various people who I would believe to be in the know, there is a problem in the company with a lack of F/O's with 2700+ hours willing to start the command upgrade for the very reason cited on this thread, such as:
leaving their base for another which could be anywhere in Southern Europe on a 5/3 roster with no chance of commuting for a reasonable family life. The new Capt salary on RYR contract anyway is approx only euro 600 a month more than that of a RYR F/O who has done 3-4 years (this money of course will barely cover the accommodation cost.
So your quality of life is reduced (more so if you have a family)
More responsibility without the bonus of a fair pay packet. Where is the incentive?
Suggestions.
A transparent base system, i.e agreed before training
A web based leave system for crews to make leave applications easier and fairer.
DO not have new captain's on a ultra low new contract salary which is cut by 10% for year 1.
these fixes would solve a lot of problems encourage FO's to upgrade and keep more pilots at Ryanair.
Anyway I'm not that naive and I was smiling while typing this. You live in hope.

zerotohero

8th Sep 2010, 16:24

Very true on the Captain upgrades for F/O's from my point of view, Just about at the required hours now for command and I have done zero study towards it, I currently have very little interest in a command here, reasons are I don't trust my current older contract to stay put and don't want the new shi**y ones, def don't want to end up in a 5/3 base in south Italy or somewhere as bad to commute from

I would rather stay on the higher rate F/O pay on 5/4 from my current base with great links home and look for another airline when the time comes or do something else completely rather than take a shafting as a new captain.

I also know a couple of other F/O's here who say exactly the same.

What a sad state of affairs in FR :yuk:

maverick777

8th Sep 2010, 17:13

The new Capt salary on RYR contract anyway is approx only euro 600 a month more than that of a RYR F/O

Speaking to the new captain colleagues on a permanent contract the amount extra is just a miserable disgusting 300 euros over what they made as an FO after tax is deducted.

These new CPs and myself were on the ""Better"" contracts :yuk: a number of years ago and in the meantime all the slashing and raping of pay and conditions has meant that both the permanent CP and FO salaries are drastically down over say 4 years ago!

You are far better off staying as a FO in ryanair if on one of these "better" contracts if you joined 4-5 yrs ago.

If you have any committments at your home base i.e loved ones, mortgage, hobbies, family, etc, then do not do your upgrade to command under any circumstances. What will it gain you?

Yes we would all love to be captains but for that greedy bastard MOL? i dont think so. For the sake of a better CV? Not on your life if its going to destroy all you've done and worked for and the comforts you have been surrounded by over the last few years.

They can shove their command.

Please God opportunities will come to fruition with a carrier here in the EU who respects their staff - their best and most adaptable asset. Wait and see sure.

CanAV8R

8th Sep 2010, 17:49

For all you young Ryanair guys/gals who got shafted by that :mad: O'Leary, a certain very large UK operator will be recruiting sooner than you think. Many think this will continue for years......

B737 ratings will come in handy.

For those of you wanting to stay, maybe time to ask for a big pay rise. :ok:

Sky Goose

8th Sep 2010, 18:13

to DRM, zero and maverick

I am in the same boat, about 2700+ hours, have a base with family nearby and am also not willing to give it up for the upgrade. They better get their $hit together or I'm off to the sandpit, and by the sounds of things I'm not he only one.

just another day at 'crazy clown's airlines' :ok:

good luck to all

Goose

HighLow

8th Sep 2010, 18:24

MOL, how does it feel "mate"? I bet this lad is feeling helpless now, now that MARKET FORCES are beginning to turn the screw on his operation....and he has lost face entirely with his recent outbursts...

The Shareholders must be thinking, is this guy an asset or liability?

The way in which he talks down his competitiors, using some of the most dirtiest tactics in the book, its business, not always pleasant, that i can understand BUT ....
but to have a cheap shot at a profession and the professionals within this profession...well the public are not stupid, far from it, and they will not fly with an airline where the CEO is coming up with this crap.

He is now punching way above his weight, and needs to move over, He reminds me of the irish bank Anglo, an embarrassment and a thorn in the side of descent irish people.

Ryanair like Anglo, through their "actions", moved up into the big leagues. Once you are there however, Ryanair CEO must learn how to ACT like a CEO of a major airline, the days of pushing people around have gone, the shareholders will no doubt realise this fact, and more harm is being done, than good. There are other guys out that more suitable to this position...

Fair play to the Senior FO's, these professionals are dead right! Number 1 priority is FAMILY and any organisation out there who respects their workforce knows this fact. Ryanair, you have a lot of work to do, until then, the fight goes on!

Dan 98

8th Sep 2010, 19:17

Can totally empathise with you guys, I'm married with kids and the thought of having to take a promotion and then put up with being miles away from home at the companies leisure would not appeal. Lets hope that they get their act together but sounds like people are starting to vote with their feet and show FR the same level of respect they have shown their staff over the last few years.

Now really is the time to start insisting on being treated with a bit of respect again and not just at FR.....They really have had it their own way toooooooooo long.

If MOL thinks flying is so easy wouldn't you just love to send him up on a dark and stormy night with an engine failure for a Single Engine approach with a crosswind and see how well he got on............of course he could always call on the CC to come help!!!

Words fail me....

Good luck guys.

Prophead

8th Sep 2010, 20:00

Well I'm sure there will be a mass exodus of FO's once the larger airlines start recruiting. There will however also be a large queue of wannabes waving there chequebooks at MOL for the opportunity to take your place. He will make a fortune from all those £500 interviews and £20,000 TR's.

The only way that things will change is if the staff make some kind of stand from within the company that will affect his bottom line and drive his costs up.

SD.

9th Sep 2010, 09:18

Another FO not interested in command with this lot, not on MOL's terms anyway.......:ugh:

Nearly There

9th Sep 2010, 09:27

Will this not have an effect on FO wages though, I mean if MOL thinks FO's are happy to stay FO's then in his world he will see this as 'we must be paying FO's to much' then you know what comes next...

bountyhunter

9th Sep 2010, 10:33

Ryanair would almost certainly benefit from basing people where they actually wanted to be. In fact I'd say they'd make some 'employees for life' and high hour FO's might even be more accepting of the pay offered with the upgrade if they were to be definitely based near their family home. There is always going to be an issue getting people to go to far flung bases but perhaps a system where you might be 'seconded' there for a set period, even for as long as a year, surely would be better. At least once you've done your time there you know you'll definitely be coming home.

No Country Members

9th Sep 2010, 11:26

but to have a cheap shot at a profession and the professionals within this profession...well the public are not stupid, far from it, and they will not fly with an airline where the CEO is coming up with this crap.

I disagree. Whether we call them stupid or otherwise, the public have proven to date that they will fly with Ryanair simply because (on the face of it at least, until you get to the end of the purchasing process) it is cheap to do so. The guy at the top knows that, and has based his entire model on this theory, largely successfully, if woefully inadequate in the professionalism in the press department. However we all know that the snide comments, whilst they make him look even cheaper than he really is, are simply a publicity machine's engine purring on all cylinders. Call it what you like, it works, and they make millions at it. Sad indictment on today's traveller, but can he really be blamed for the fact that he pandas to the whim of his customer, more News of the World than FT?

PAPI-74

9th Sep 2010, 12:02

I think that everyone is blowing this M.East recruitment out of proportion a bit. They are recruiting from global sources, not just the UK. When you take a few form the rest of Europe, Asia and the US, really the chances of a few hundred from this country making any major impact on the T’s & C’s, respect, salary, fixed base of choice and mass movement into better jobs really is a pipe dream.

God, if anyone wished for the contrary it is me, but it just won’t. This is going to be a long term game till the new aircraft are delivered (assuming that those aircraft are not just replacing old ones - not requiring crews) and new airlines spring up again to replace the many that have gone to the wall over the last few years - as long as they are not asking for wazzok PTF 'pilots'.

Put your efforts into stopping the Estate Agents putting up the price of houses – SCUM!!!:*

Mr. Hat

9th Sep 2010, 12:45

Your moron CEO's been making headlines in the Aussie forum with his remarks about getting rid of effos.

Can't see why you'd work in a company that has a CEO with that kind of belligerent attitude.

Uncle Wiggily

9th Sep 2010, 13:18

It doesn't matter what MOL says....get it! He could say that people who choose to fly on his airline are poor trash and they would still fly RYR. The public also doesn't care about the plight of RYR employees. They care about getting that cheap ticket. End of story. Sure they will moan and complain about the added charges, lack of a customer service phone number, etc., etc. , but they will still fly because the ticket is cheaper. Pilots will complain about RYR....yadda, yadda, yadda...but if they are so concerned about having a base 400 km from where they currently are located, do you think that they will be so happy to go work for some :mad: outfit in the desert? Yes...Emirates is a :mad: outfit. Until RYR crew collectively show just a little backbone, will the beatings cease.

bountyhunter

11th Sep 2010, 10:15

Mainwaring: Rubbish, the line training is relatively well paid and the months after even more so, please don't comment on something you obviously have little idea about.

Ryanair's BRK rates are well published and aside from the first week (until safety pilot release) cadets can expect to be properly paid. For a first job in the industry you can't beat it.

Coffin Corner

11th Sep 2010, 10:55

Yes you can beat it, Flybe pay you from day one, and pay for your type rating. That beats Pikey's airline hands down.

Vulka

11th Sep 2010, 11:01

How much does it cost a 737 type rating in a normal TRTO? less then 20000euro.
So...U pay for your line training wages:D

Mr Angry from Purley

11th Sep 2010, 11:51

Bounty - in the old days before beancounters, bonus hunters, micro managers took charge F/O's were promoted and sent to outstations to serve their command penance, normally for 1 to 2 years. For example at Airtours A320 upgrades went to a new BFS base and B757 upgrades to GLA. In the end it went full cycle and F.O's locally recruited got Commands and filled the base.
The problem with FR and ESY as you say is that you have to depart to far flung places and then if your lucky start moving closer and closer when the opportunity arises. It's not easy for sure but spare a thought for the average joe public who you see commuting on the motorway at 0500 in the morning or on the train to london at 0600 in the morning. Unfortunately it's the world we live in, a lot of these folk have no choice - you perhaps do

bountyhunter

11th Sep 2010, 12:42

Thank you Maverick, I appreciate your comments. We're all trying to make a living in this industry I'm sure. Although as you feel this line of discussion is off topic I'll take my leave. Graciously and without shouting.:)

Kernow 101

11th Sep 2010, 13:04

Sorry couldn´t resist keeping it 'off topic' a while longer.

Maverick 777...........was interested by your post so did a quick check on your history.....haaaahaaaaaahaaaa you made my day mate :}:}:}:}:}:}:}

Amazing what a few years at RYR will do to your level of cynicism...

Get back in your hole....you were raping the system long before us matey....:p

quote;
Hi guys,

I recently sat the simcheck & interview at EMA and i was successful.
Its clear that all of you who have replied to this thread are pi**ed off with your experience or shocked at the reports from first hand guys/ladies.

All i can say is that its been almost a year since i finished my initial basic pilot training. I have scraped and scrounged and begged at the door of every single airline website, HR department, recrutiment agency, and any measily damn contact i can possibly find in this tight-ass aviation industry and eventually i worked my b*lls off to get a shot at a ryanair simcheck and interview.

There are THOUSANDS of guys and girls out there who would ravage and scavenge and adore a chance to work for flybe, BMI, BMI regional, BACitiexpress, EasyJet, AerLingus, British Airways, CityJet, Monarch, First Choice, etc etc you name the airline. The bottom line is there is VERY LITTLE or nothing out there. Only a select few receive a positive feedback from an on-line app form but even then the waiting times are enormous and as each day passes your licences and hours dwindle and dwindle into expiry.

My secret is that i have now an opportunity to get on with my aviation career - all be it - with an employer who will pay me nothing and inflict unacceptable waiting times upon me (i mean end of type rating to line training) - BUT i will think long-term! Thats my way of looking at it. I will suffer the burden of the financial bottom-less pit for a few years - but in the long term i know it will pay off. I will get a "Next Generation" 737 type rating, EFIS experience, work the maximum 100 per month and 900hours per year and my logbook will start to fill up again - with the best experience. I will also fly to small airports with non-precision approaches in the middle of nowhere aswell as the big ones like STN.

I'm almost 29 now and by the time i'm 33/34 i will have 3,000 to 4000 plus hours and will be able to take my experience ANYWHERE in the world as long as i have the right to work there.

Its an absolute BITCH but its a start. The "bank of Dad and Mum" is a lost cause - it's daily strife to 'keep-the-show-on-the-road' - but we will find a way. I have struggled to get this far.....AM I GONNA GIVE UP? No!!!!!

Just stick at it guys - keep talking and researching - but make sure its to someone WHO ACTAULLY WORKS for Ryanair and not a bad-mouthing outsider.

Good luck to you all in 2006 and keep the faith.
MAVERICK777

Harry Shyters

11th Sep 2010, 17:37

Ahh Maverick 777. Experienced an Epiphany then or gradually seen through the BS and seen where it all leads.

Unfortunately I found myself needing a job earlier this year and was unable to contemplate RYR as an experienced 737 FO due to the airline's prediliction for recruiting others on the same journey as yourself.

That having been said (and more on-topic), why is it necessarily a bad thing for an exodus from the airline? Far better it be voluntary than compulsory (trust me, I know). Economically things are far from certain across Europe and if things go bad it may keep those who wish to stay in employment.

If the economy does hold up well (big if, but anyway.....) it may force the airline to listen to your grievances if they aren't able to fly the programme.

As I say is it necessarily a bad thing loads of people leaving?

EmeraldEire

11th Sep 2010, 18:13

Hey people, agree with most of the stuff in this but we all knew, well i did anyway that HR in RYR leaves a lot to be desired, but still over 2000 of us signed the dotted line having heard the horror stories. Who's to blame for this??

Kind of an unrelated question here for the people with the actual experience rather than Joe Soap hearing from a TRE who knows John who plays golf with Paul. If you have the old Brookfield contract not linked in with the accountants:confused: in Dublin, when you renew it after its 5 years is up are you given the new one or will they simply ask for your records of tax paid and let you stay doing what your doing. Someone on here must have renewed recently and would appreciate the info.

Cheers

Teddy Robinson

11th Sep 2010, 19:29

I was offered a command at Fr and turned them down.
Having heard enough of what went on there I was not going to sign on the line.

12 weeks later I was in the employ of a company where abuse of staff is not an issue and one is paid what it states on the contract, no "intermediaries" required, nice hotel for the paid sim etc etc ...

Well worth the wait, former colleagues were ensnared and have been trying (and in some cases suceeding) to escape ever since.

The real shame for everybody is that it has reduced the employment value of a 737NG type industry wide rating to peanuts.

45989

11th Sep 2010, 21:54

If one is capable of ignoring all standards of decent behaviour, Yes go work for the VIRUS it will ensure your inevitable AND required next move will be a further slide down the greasy pole of T & C'S
When will you wannabees ever learn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

d105

12th Sep 2010, 10:20

I'm tired of people complaining about "newbies" dragging down T&C. Some people have no choice. They need to find work to pay of their loans since flight training comes at the price of a small apartment these days. I find that most people complaining did their training years ago in times when flight training was sponsored by an airline and type ratings were free. The world has evolved, you need to learn how to deal with that.

Wirbelsturm

12th Sep 2010, 10:43

d105,

All very nice to rant but then don't complain, when you eventually make the LHS, that the wages don't cover the bills, the company has you flying so much that there is no time for any form of social life and the company demand you live where they tell you to, treating you as much of an object as the aircraft based there.

The world does indeed evolve but why should that be a reason to prostitute our profession to a point where pilots in charge of $100 million dollar assets and 150+ lives get paid less than a bus driver?

Enjoy you evolving world, luckily by the time you claim we will all have to get used to it I will be in retirement lamenting on how the industry has declined to such depths fuelled by a company that holds its most important employees in such contempt as they have consistently shown their willingness to pay for qualifications the company should be providing for free.

Due to my companies Staff Travel scheme, which was negotiated, in an adult fashion, over many years I will never have to relive the horrors of the RYR cattle, slave truck combination. Taken once, never again.

Finally, always remember: Work to live, don't live to work.

McBruce

12th Sep 2010, 11:13

As a collective, new commers into this industry have no say, when these schemes first presented themselves then it was upto the experienced guys in the industry to stand up and be counted.

EK4457

12th Sep 2010, 11:15

Wirbelsturm, pure poetry.

Well said that man.

EK

CHfour

12th Sep 2010, 12:22

The world does indeed evolve but why should that be a reason to prostitute our profession to a point where pilots in charge of $100 million dollar assets and 150+ lives get paid less than a bus driver?
I think I'll give up flying then and become a bus driver if I can find out where these bus drivers work for that kind of money.

Wirbelsturm

12th Sep 2010, 12:29

Perhaps I should have said Tube driver, as much as Bob Crow is an objectionable character, you don't see Tube Drivers paying for their training and their pay is very good as well.

Edited to add that RYR is not the only problem, the FO on the Colgan Air flight in America was paid $21000 per annum. Less than a hotel dishwasher.

The rot needs to stop now, not just with the Wannabees, they are a small part of the problem. The general, fare paying public needs to realise that if they truely want paid professionals in the front of their aircraft the 99p fare has to go and be replaced by sensible fares for a safe operation.

jumbojet

12th Sep 2010, 12:39

anybody got address of National Express Coaches/trains?
:{ Always fancied driving an express train, the speed, the glamour, the responsability & now I am told the the salary too!

CHfour

12th Sep 2010, 14:19

Perhaps I should have said Tube driver, as much as Bob Crow is an objectionable character, you don't see Tube Drivers paying for their training and their pay is very good as well.

Starting pay for London tube captain £40k. With 6 weeks off and 35hrs /week = £24.84/hr. RYR Captain €130 - €4.5 (training) = €125.5 = £103.95/hr. To be fair it should be mentioned that the hourly Brookfield rate is for block hrs. so you don't get paid for pre/post flight or turnaround times or (most important) standbys and the tube driver gets paid a regular salary even if he's off sick or on holiday (I think)

Callsign Kilo

12th Sep 2010, 15:53

Lets see now, how will this one play out..hypothetically speaking of course.
If the rather bizarre memo of a few weeks ago is anything to go by, I reckon PB has crunched his numbers and as result could possibly be feeling a little bit concerned with regard to summer 2011. Between the end of this year and into next, I believe 47 new machines will be arriving from Seattle. I'm not sure what disposal rates are, however I believe 6 are certainly earmarked for withdrawl towards the end of the year. Any more will depend largely on the market, which I reckon is pretty flat. So you either store or fly your spare birds...if they are spare that is? The likelihood is that more bases are on the agenda, most probably southern or eastern european potholes with a 5/3 roster. Add the expansion of current bases who will be willing to drop their drawers quicker than a lady of the night when Ryanair 'negociates' contracts. If crew shortages do result due to exodus/lack of Captains/failure to attract OCCs/Not enough upgrades/....add other variables.... then I reckon the whole kit and caboodle will be on a 5/3 by April/May 2011.

The likes of Emirates, Etihad, Flydubai etc may just be getting in before everyone else. I don't think the figures in the context of those who are leaving will be apparent until late this year/early next. At that point we may be adding a few more airlines to the equasion, which will make things interesting. So how will management react I wonder? Fairly tactfully I would imagine. There will be no universal pay raise, transparent base policy or improved contract offer. My guess is they will address the areas that need addressing. "So we have lost the majority of pilots from X,Y and Z..yet there are no real problems at A,B or C...then sort X,Y and Z out!" Where do I get the reasoning? Ryanair have capatalised on a number of 737 operators going to the dogs in the last two or so years. As a result they were able to attract a number of DECs to OCCs. A large number who I have spoken with were actually asked where they were looking to be based. Many got where or close to where they wanted. Complete contrast to new upgrades. Why...well I reckon, once again, concern was shown from above. "We need these f**king Captains for summer 2010, make sure you get them!" Could I be wrong?

Don't forget, O'Leary's prime objective is to drive down pretty much everything, bar the share price. Much of what he says is drivel, however I do actually believe him when he suggests that his goal is for the price of a ticket on one of his flights to eventually equate to zero. He is grasping more and more control of the market, and driving down costs with it. When it comes to pilots, he has no interest in making this a touchy feely place of work. Somebody used the analogy of staff being equated little more value than the machinary that they operate. Well that's the culture of the company to be perfectly honest, same goes for the passengers, the airports, the regulators, the politicians..whoever. However back to the impending pilot question. If O'Leary is met with a crew shortage which potentially could lead to planes not pushing back, then he'll firefight it. He won't be embrassing the only real thing that he refused to embrase when Herb Kelleher shared the secrets to a successful low cost airline all those years ago. That would represent a major upheavel in culture; and that is now well and truely embedded within Ryanair. It wouldn't even change if O'Leary walked tomorrow. It isn't one person.

You know, I laugh when people exclaim on here that we should all grow some backbone and stand up to management. They obviously don't work here. It's been tried before collectively (the IALPA debacle in Dublin....and before anyone starts, people were made to look like idiots here) and individually. Individuals are just subjected to vendetta and driven out. I don't like the expression, however it's 'divide and conquer' and O'Leary has conquered many, to the point that there will never be a collective voice or a collective solution in the favour of the pilots. It also pisses me off that people come on and point the finger at the cadets for turning T&Cs into a joke. Sure there are one or two 'bank of Mummy and Daddys' lurking in every crewroom, but a lot of guys who I know are here because they were out of options. Nobody gets into flying and has the sole aim to join Ryanair! Self improvement is dead and burried and hell will freeze over before airline sponsorship returns. Therefore you can't have a gripe with the likes of Maverick777, who had a plan to get a few thousand JAR25 hours and then get out.

To be honest, as rough cut that it may be, many still are happy to be here. I will include myself in that one. However if it works for you and you can sail clear of the sh1t then no problem. There are hundreds, maybe a thousand; possibly more, that feel this way. It really is a story with two sides, if you like.

ryanairpilotSTN

12th Sep 2010, 16:59

Callsign Kilo - Much to my regret I think the time to win concessions from Ryanair was 2009 and 2010 and BALPA knew that. From 2011 on there are relatively few deliveries and more than enough FOs who will fill the command seats.

The detail on Ryanair's aircraft delivery which is publicly available on the company's website, Boeing's website, and USA Securities and Exchange Commission filings shows that there will be 272 aircraft operating in Summer 2011. That is just 22 more than we have at Ryanair this weekend and 28 less than added this year. Just google SECINFO dot com and look for Ryanair 20f. There is a vast array of data that any employee or intending cadet should read - much more than in the European annual report. 302 pages - but incredible detail about pilots.

Assuming that it remains at a crewing of less than 5 CPs per a/c that means an extra 110 CPS for summer 11. If we allow for 70 people CP leaving in next 6 months - same as now - then that is 180 extra Captains.

The command upgrade courses are running at 24 a month - and they are filling them.

Ryanair added 50 aircraft in 2010 and went from 198 last summer 2009 - to 250 in Summer 2010. The Direct Entry Cps hiring went badly - just ask any line trainer.

I think the frightening part is that PB has managed to really screw our conditions down far harder than anyone before. He introduced an all contractors policy, new leave, tax compliance and god help you if you are sick. Worst of the lot is the deeply unpopular 5/3. He does not look well lately - so if we are lucky he will leave soon as rumoured.

I cannot work out how Ryanair actually managed to operate 250 aircraft in 2010 with so few staff in my base - but they did - and that bodes ill for any improvement in terms for 2011-2013. :(

Wirbelsturm

12th Sep 2010, 18:33

Starting pay for London tube captain £40k. With 6 weeks off and 35hrs /week = £24.84/hr. RYR Captain €130 - €4.5 (training) = €125.5 = £103.95/hr.

Come now, if there is to be discussion then at least make it a level playing field. The thread is about the FO exodus to the sand pit, I'm sure the starting wage for FO's at RYR is 103.95 per hour. There is no such thing as a Tube 'Captain' they have a course which culminates in a check journey and then a very short period of supervised driving.

(A mate of mine works for TFL as a tube driver and he also doesn't like Bob Crow)

captainbirdseye9999

12th Sep 2010, 20:24

How Ryanair ruined my life.

So here’s my story, and also why not to join possibly the worlds worst airline, all these points have been covered before, but ill give you an inside perspective.
I’ve always wanted to fly; I put my finances on the line just to get my licence. When I got a job with Ryan air, it was amazing, the jet, the logging of hours in my log book etc. id say I was on an ok number in my uk base, then the time came for command upgrade, 4 years in the company, 2 sick days, no no shows and an unblemished flying record, id kept my head down. I jumped at the chance of a command, thinking, if they move me, it cant be that bad, 12 months…what the hell so I did it, passed everything and got based abroad. At first it was great,sunshine,2 or 3 flights a day back home. But then after a while things just got s**t couldn’t get home enough on my 5/3 roster, my fiancée; love of my life couldn’t handle it and left. My pay rise, all of a sudden became the same take home as before, euros to pounds, mortgage in the uk and rental property abroad to live on my 5 days work. Also why am I getting 10% less than every other captain for doing exactly the same job?that grated on me as well! But still I go to work, save fuel, fly safely…why, because I think of myself as a professional and don’t want to let my FO or myself down. Yeah a great place to go on holiday, but to live and work here…no thanks…even the local cabin crew look at us with disgust. Why are you in our country…etc? The last couple of days I had a personal issue back home, and this is when it finally hit home, after trying crewing a number of times (no answer) finally get through to someone, they bark at me, and hang up the phone. No adhoc leave available…. so I find myself, head in hands, a grown man close to breakdown because this shower of s**t company has done this to me. I’ve never hated my job so much! knowing that guys straight direct entry out of other airlines get priority over bases before people that have worked up from the bottom makes me sick! Im here, they are where I want to be, life would have been so much simpler if I had just stayed an FO,5/4 and the same money, if only I could turn back time.
I’m looking, and when something comes up im off! And this s**t outfit can rot in hell; I just pray to god they don’t take any innocent people with them!!

Oh, and apparently its going to take 3 years to get back to my base……WTF!!

Dan 98

13th Sep 2010, 07:22

captainbirdseye9999

Sad to hear that it has that effect on you. I expect there are many reading your post in the same position. Fingers crossed you'll be in a position to move to something better in the coming months and FR will be left in the :mad:

Interesting previous threads make reference to Tube Drivers, there is one big difference between Tube/Train drivers and pilots, they stand together and take action!! The tubes were out on strike all day last week. Pilots moan and i include myself in that but we never do........! We only have ourselves to blame for putting up with the current state of our T&C's and nothing will change until aircraft are sat on the ground not moving with us refusing to fly them until things change.......we have the power but not the will unfortunately.

Bokkenrijder

13th Sep 2010, 09:15

captainbirdseye9999, sorry to hear your sad story. Unfortunately there is no shortcut to both 1) a quick command on a shiny jet and 2) a career airline where you are well treated and can work happily until retirement. Except for a few exceptions (small yet stable niche airlines) these two are mutually exclusive. For anyone thinking about it: escaping to Emirates (or Etihad, Qatar etc) will not change that, you'd just be even further away from home, treated like sh!t, yet with 4 stripes on a shiny (wide body) jet. On top of that, if a lot of RYR people do not feel at home in Southern Europe, why would they feel at home in the Middle East? :confused:

Callsign Kilo:You know, I laugh when people exclaim on here that we should all grow some backbone and stand up to management.I'm actually quite shocked by such a cynical statement. It reminds me of some (religious?) fatalist nutcases who never put up a fight, yet resign to the fact that some higher power is in charge of their fate. Is that how the average FR pilot would also handle an double engine failure (New York...Hudson...) by exclaiming: "we're doomed, I have no backbone, I give up?" I seriously doubt it. I believe that when the pressure get's big enough then people can and will do extraordinary things, even in Ryanair. Obviously the abuse and pressure is not great enough yet at RYR... :hmm:

By avoiding the pressure (escape to the Middle East) people will only buy one a little bit of extra time, but sooner or later pilots in the Middle East will also experience similar stories like those of captainbirdseye9999...

Carmoisine

13th Sep 2010, 12:20

if I had just stayed an FO,5/4 and the same money, if only I could turn back time.

This is fast becoming a reoccurring theme.

The penny is starting to drop with a few command upgrade ready First Officers, or "low hanging fruit" as they are known to senior members of the training department, that a command on less money then they are making now in their base of choice is probably not worth it anymore as they will be on 5/3 in a far flung siht hole with no chance of a transfer back as direct entry Captains slide into the desired bases.

It get's better too. When PB was on his charm offensive, touring the bases to raise morale he stated that amongst others Fes and Marrakesh were future bases.

A cynic might suggest that this is a deliberate "environmental push factor" as a deviant manager in Aer Lingus once put it. Deliberately push people to breaking point, send them to a base which will put their family and social connections under strain of breaking until they are forced to leave and replace with a cheaper replacement. The race to the bottom continues, PB gets his bonus.

I couldn't comment.

cumulustratus

13th Sep 2010, 12:52

A large amount of union-refusing skippers at RYR are soon about to change sides. I'm talking about the vast majority of "older" skippers sitting on the old lucrative BRK contracts that are about to expire in a year or so. When they no longer will be able to continue their 'creative tax management' and enter the reduced rates with the Irish tax and accounting bs, they will be ready to take action. Today these pilots are the ones crying the hardest when any union talk comes up on the f/d. Specially the ones on IAA license validations that are today extremely careful no to lose their jobs as it would mean a one way ticket out of the dear old EU.

The villas and X5's and plastic surgery girlfriends (+wife) and kids in boarding school all dig out of their pockets. Can they afford to stay quiet?

zerotohero

14th Sep 2010, 08:17

€35 per hour for first 500?

That was just while line training then its €55 until 500 hours, tell me thats not changed now on the contracts?

that really does make the whole think pointless.

Skyhigh86

14th Sep 2010, 09:09

35 Euro P/H from Safety Pilot release until Line check(and end of month)

55 Euro P/H until 500 hours(and end of month)

Hasnt changed.

captainbirdseye9999

14th Sep 2010, 10:16

I just dont understand how an airline that claims it "the biggest and best in europe" can be so shortsighted.I can imagine PB now breathing a sigh of relief now that the summer is almost over,"we got away with it,again!".This company appears to run on a week-by-week basis,maybe even day-to-day (most likely)
Everyone i have spoken to knows at least 2 people who are leaving,indeed,speaking to a couple of Captains the other day that have been here 10+ years,they are going to go to an Emirates road show "for a look see"!! I dont know what PB plan was with that rubbish memo....18 peple are leaving! bul s**t,this company literaly has no respect for its workforce and just assumes we are thick!!believe it or not,i think Airline pilots might fall under the category of "slightly inteligent" as opposed to some jumped up farm boy who thinks hes running a fleet of combines in some bog ridden back end of ireland.

I hear on the grapevine that a UK operator is about to put in an order with Boeing for a large amount of 73NGs also with VS Blue and others buying up airframes at a great rate (no wonder MOL cant get a "deal",real airlines are buying them all!) i suspect that a type rated FO with 1000+ hours is going to be in a great position over the next year or so....he may get his wish,Cabin crew might have to sit in the right seat!!! :mad:
And the crazy thing is,it would only take a few small things to make this place a little better,5/4 in all bases,some kind of seniority type list as far as base requests go,NOT PUTTING DIRECT ENTRY CONTRACT CAPTAINS WHERE THEY WANT TO GO!! and giving us an easier/transparent leave system (at the moment its more covert than the bloody SAS!)

:ugh:

Good luck.

fireflybob

14th Sep 2010, 23:33

I was on the assessment for a pilot position one month ago in STD.

Wow, Ryanair have expanded into Venezuela then! Or should that be STN?

Falcone

15th Sep 2010, 10:56

To JPK110,

If you are DEC, then this is info you are looking for.

There is reduced recruitment requirement for DEC. At least according Peter Bellews` memo dated on 27th Aug 2010.

See this extract from memo:

]... The rate of pilot resignations/retirements (currently 18 out of over 2,300) is running at less then 3% of the annual rate which is a fraction of normal planning levels.

This has reduced our recruitment requirement and last six Direct Entry Captain OCC Courses sheduled from October 2010 to March 2011 are now not required.

For the remainder of current aircraft order, the vast majoriy of Captain positions are planned from current poll of co-pilots, with very limited external recruitment........[/I]

So, long story short.

No more DEC in Ryanair for foreseen future. Ryanair F/Os have turned nasty recently and twisted Peters` hand. So, Ryanair decided to stop recruiting DEC. For time been.

Question; What means for time been?

Answer; Nobody knows. :ugh:

Offcourse in Ryan nothing is forever. :=

Another question; Would anyone believe in Ryanair propaganda?

Another answer; Take your own choise. :*

737Jock

15th Sep 2010, 14:03

That is so smart, if the co-pilots actually believe it. They will upgrade some FO's from October-march and then train some DEC's (much less training) over April and may to meet summer demand...

Nicholas49

16th Sep 2010, 21:37

It's a shame that "Peter Bellews" cannot write a sentence using correct English grammar, nor spell "scheduled" properly.

I assume he holds a senior position in the airline?

ryanairpilotSTN

16th Sep 2010, 22:11

I fear worse news is coming as PB and Eddie Wilson were on a secret visit to Bergamo today to warn of further cuts.

The full text of the now infamous memo is below from off the internal intranet.

Attn: All Pilots
From: Peter Bellew
Date: 27th August 2010
Re: Pilot Recruitment

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

Thank you to the many Ryanair pilots who have directed their colleagues to the Ryanair recruitment website and the following is the updated position.

• The rate of pilot resignations/retirements (currently 18 pilots out of over 2,300) is running at less than 3% of the annual rate which is a fraction of normal planning levels.

• This has reduced our recruitment requirement and the last six Direct Entry Captain OCC Courses scheduled from October 2010 to March 2011 are now not required.

• For the remainder of our current aircraft order, the vast majority of Captain positions are planned from the current pool of co-pilots, with very limited external recruitment.

• External schools will continue to offer a reducing number of 737 Type Rating course places for co-pilots. Applicants should apply via the school links on the Ryanair website.

• Ryanair is an equal opportunities employer. Applications for employment can only be made through the channels detailed on the Ryanair website. Applicants who canvass (by phone, direct contact or through existing employees) will be disqualified.

Best regards

Peter Bellew
Deputy Director – Flight Operations

flycheaper

4th Dec 2010, 19:12

So 3 months after....seems to continue...not a day without meeting a FR jockey actually leaving the company...BA, Emirates, Norwegian, Qatar, Aerologic, Aer lingus, Jet2...
Would be really interested to have real figures because 18 seems so unrealistic, should be more around 10% of the pilot workforce by now...but it's just a guess

Skyhigh86

4th Dec 2010, 19:38

2 BC's certainly involved in a very public walkout to the sandpit, fair play to the lads.
Says a lot when two people of these stature are quite happy to head back into the RHS!

YYZ

4th Dec 2010, 19:43

Im not seeing that many, more than PB says but still not the mass as expected?
Maybe people are playing the old cards close to their chest??

McBruce

4th Dec 2010, 19:46

theres a few guys in my base with a couple of interviews lined up in the next few weeks...

dire straits

4th Dec 2010, 21:24

Best move I ever done was to leave FR, from where I was based at least 7 pilots has left this year. Thats approx 10% of pilots at that base, have met several pilots that used to be with FR, so pretty sure PB's 18 is a dreamnumber. Left them and get paid better than a FR captain plus I get crewfood, medical, all the water I can drink, pension and LOL.
Guys come on, get out of there and get a better life!

fastidious bob

4th Dec 2010, 22:25

A close friend of mine said there were 12 Pilots leaving his base alone, mainly Captains. You can't blame people, especially with the Irish tax set up and only being paid per scheduled block hour. Rubbish

DirectDIKAS

5th Dec 2010, 18:56

Dire Straits, so where is this better life then? Where you working, Id love to know

TCU LUX

5th Dec 2010, 19:59

From my base of 2 AC - One FO already left a few months ago, now flying B777. Another FO on their way to Qatar. One Cpt heading to FD. Here's waiting for 2500 JAR.

dire straits

5th Dec 2010, 22:13

If you guys that only speak one language took to the books and learned another language you would be more marketable. That why UK is packed with us foreign pilots, because we know your language and can fit in socially. You cant complain that lufthansa and other national carriers prefers pilots being capable of communicating in their language, its the exact same in England. I dont see BA, FLYBE, BMI, EASY, THOMSON or any other here ever take on anyone only speaking french or italian!
Im on my way back to hometurf in Scandinavia after ten years in England, without the language I would be stuck in UK.

warpspeedmrsulu

6th Dec 2010, 00:03

dire straights, a little patronising perhaps?! i dont think anyone is complaining. believe it or not i dont fancy learning norwegian so that i can apply to SAS, or italian so i can go to alitalia. i have a second language and it makes me barely any more marketable, because in that one country where they speak that language, they would rather just employ their own people and who can blame them? speaking english as a first language is an advantage, however.

maybe i'll start arabic classes.

rudolf

6th Dec 2010, 08:01

Mandarin classes anyone?

stansdead

6th Dec 2010, 14:17

Mandarins? No thanks, I bought Satsumas in ASDA yesterday......

Boom, Boom, drumroll.....

mikehammer

6th Dec 2010, 14:56

Dire Straits said:

If you guys that only speak one language took to the books and learned another language you would be more marketable. That why UK is packed with us foreign pilots, because we know your language and can fit in socially.

Is that you fitting in socially? Porque creo que es mas dificil entonces. Peut etre c'est une question de politesse. Old chap.

By the way Iberia is a no go despite my fluent Spanish, and Air France? Well....

Sky Goose

6th Dec 2010, 15:21

My base 6 ac, 1 fo and one cpt leaving and two fo's getting ready to interview.

dire straits

6th Dec 2010, 17:56

Absolutely not meaning to patronise, merely a suggestion. Sorry if I offended anyone with my previous post.

go around flaps15

6th Dec 2010, 19:23

Personally I know of 4 FOs with interviews at BA. 6 FOs for Emirates. And I recently met with a few younger captains that are electing to go into the right hand seat of a 777 with Etihad.

HighLow

4th Jan 2011, 05:19

Pressman,

well not wanting to doubt your claim in anyway. how about you tell us all how you are coming to that assertion...rather than just one line!!!

personally I know around 25 jumping ship, mixture between captains and first officers...

25/2500 = 1 percent... Put it this way, One Single Pilot (ME!) knowing 1 percent of the pilot workforce in RYR ready to leave....Can you imagine all the other pilots about to do the same that I am unaware of...

the flood gates are about to open up over the coming months, there is no doubt !!!

and PB.....a fact I am sure you are well aware of by now, you are absolutely screwed for Captains, couldnt happen to a nicer group of twisted managers!! insensitive to employee requests (location due family etc)...this is all well documented at this stage.... and your loyal understudy DR is no different, two sides of the same dirty old coin if you ask me.

PB, I have flown with a number of senior FO's recently and should you approach them about command, don't be surprised when they tell you where you should stick it!! This feeling is felt amongst a large number of the senior FO community at the moment within FR...and the company is only hurting themselves in the long run....

I guess PB, we will expect your face to appear in Germany and around other bases within Europe, on the hunt for command upgrade candidates, no doubt you will reel in a certain few, but man, you are going to fall way short....happy hunting !!

McBruce

4th Jan 2011, 23:10

Is the 10% for RYR contract guys? reason I ask is I spoke to a new captain fresh of the CU course and asked him about the reduction and he said hes on full rate, so I assume the 10% is for RYR contract only?

d105

5th Jan 2011, 11:46

Pay reduction is across the board. All new entries and CU are on Brookfield contracts with a reduction in the hourly pay rate. Those on Ryanair contracts are subject to the "Ryanair cost of living index."

Basically it means that Ryanair has established a certain index by which they judge the cost of living in the country where you base is located. From that index your basic salary is derived. Someone from Barcelona and someone from Hahn, on Ryanair contract, do not have the same basic salary.

A third option is that you receive a base transfer on grounds of a reduced salary in the other base. Basically, you can prostitute yourself to get a certain base by accepting the lowest basic salary for that base.

Divide and conquer!

olster

5th Jan 2011, 12:56

Tell them to stick it chaps -how much longer as a professional group are we going to allow ourselves to be collectively shafted. It is not just Ryanair,although of course they are industry leaders in their awfulness.

This is the unacceptable face of capitalism: greed reigns at board/ management level no doubt propelled by envy of the loathsome bankers. Time to make a stand methinks. Flying a 737 while bringing your own sarnies isn't that great - trust me.

D O Guerrero

5th Jan 2011, 13:03

It's not that bad Olster. I quite like taking my own sandwiches.

d105

5th Jan 2011, 13:05

To be perfectly honest with you Ryanair always takes the flack for everything. But aside from the major companies I don't see much of a difference between Ryanair and the others. I've got friends flying a command on the 737 for Belgian companies, take home pay €3000...

Olster, while I follow your sentiment I always wonder what I'll do after I tell PB to stick it...

edit: I often joke to my colleagues I'm willing to bet former RYR pilots turn up for their next job with their sandwiches in their flight bags out of habit :)

Rednex

5th Jan 2011, 13:19

Just wait till they start transfering senior FOs that say no to command upgrade to a new base due "operational reasons"

olster

5th Jan 2011, 14:06

I do not wish to criticize Ryanair pilots - I know that their operational / training standards are bloody good - they have to be I guess and I know a few trainers there that are top of the tree.

However... I get more depressed year after year as I watch a great industry which has served me well for 34 years drive pilot t and c's into the gutter and somehow we blindly accept this and the greed/ awfulness of those that pretend to manage us benefit financially at our expense.

You are right - Ryanair are not the only offenders - some of the contract pilot positions are derisory in the deals on offer and I believe agencies do not generally help the pilot cause.

We should stick together - unions anybody -but I am not holding my breath.

Safe flying in 2011

beachbumflyer

5th Jan 2011, 17:27

olster,

Your're bloody right, I wonder how much longer these guys are willing to
put up with this crap.

widered

5th Jan 2011, 17:54

Lads your absolutely right how long are Ryanair pilots going to take this.Latest rumour is that all bases will be changing to 5,3 from the summer due to the exodus.There will be a carrot though the supposed 3 pc raise.
People need to learn if we dont stand togetheir we get bent over.
Its up to each and everyone of YOU your choice the functions are there for us to stop this crap REPA IALPA BALPA.
all you have to do is pledge your support its confidential then maybe we have a chance to stop the rot...

d105

5th Jan 2011, 19:17

How easy it is to comment on a situation you aren't in personally.

Lord Spandex Masher

5th Jan 2011, 19:40

As easy as it is to gather information about something that doesn't involve you directly.

I'd have thought.

YYZ

6th Jan 2011, 10:46

The carrot is a 3 percent pay rise, more of a mouldy turnip and an insult, VAT has just gone up in the UK by 2.5, NI is increasing, high earners have to pay more tax, child allowance is decreasing, fuel is on the up, need i go on, not to mention no pay rise for the past several years!

Even if they offered 10 percent we would still be way behind the curve, and as already mentioned, the last shuffle of pay saw all the FOs screwed, who will it be this time?

Personally I do enjoy working for FR but the management do seem to really let down what could be a great company to work for, im guessing thats how the man on top wants it though so there'll be no change forth coming.

YYZ

HighLow

6th Jan 2011, 14:11

YYZ, all valid points , increase in VAT etc and tax rates all around Europe...
however your last paragraph going on about MOL
and I quote "im guessing thats how the man on top wants it though so there'll be no change forth coming",

its the Shareholders who are the key players here!!!
MOL is a waffler!!, remember that line about the Cabin Crew flying the planes, his knuckles were wrapped over that loose remark big time.
His job was on the line !!

RYR are loosing pilots, and some experienced guys too...in the Spring, the Shareholders will ask why the hell are so many planes being grounded?

MOL will have to try and wriggle out of that one!!!
the fact is NOT ENOUGH PILOTS, NOT ENOUGH CAPTAINS!!!

The company are loosing good people at the moment, and I don't feel sorry for these managers (PB included), They actually have the arrogance to think this machines can fly from A-B safely, whilst treating their workforce like complete **** at the same time,

this airline must cop on!!!! luv to see PB being dragged away from his family, and having to jumpseat 3 times to get back home for 2 Days!!!

lets see how this develops, but talkin to many guys in the base, and around the company.....Im sure it will not take much before there is complete chaos...!!

beachbumflyer

6th Jan 2011, 18:04

d105,

It's easy to look for excuses.

How do you think BA,AF,LH, etc. achieved their t&c's? They didn't get them overnight.
It's all up to you guys.

d105

6th Jan 2011, 18:34

Forgot to mention that pilots in those companies are backed by strong labor laws and a government that doesn't bend over and spread wide for those companies.

I'm growing tired of others blaming Ryanair pilots for a situation most of them didn't even have anything to do with making it so.

beachbumflyer

7th Jan 2011, 17:18

That's just more excuses.

d105

7th Jan 2011, 18:01

I won't consider replies like that worthy of further discussion.

maverick777

7th Jan 2011, 19:52

Yes "d105" I absolutely agree!!

It sickens me when :mad:'s from outside shout **** from outside the fence with comments like that from beachbumflyer.

beachbumflyer ..... there is nothing that can be done i tell you and i speak from inside! Ryanair managent have destroyed all moral, slammed every door, bullied people into contracts, bullied pilots, cabin crew and enginers into bases they dont want to be at; they have exploited and upset the living standards and life-situation of thousands of pilots and engineers, slashed, and cut, lied, and have twisted the truth and imtimidated at every opportunity internally and in the public arena.

Management have also divided and destroyed all opportunities of pilot unity (if it was ever in existance) by having 40 something bases accross Europe north south east and west thereby rendering any united force being created.... ETC! It is NO LHR/LGW like BA have where the pilots can gather and unite!

Nothing will change in ryanair! its a lost cause unless management personnel change and that will NOT happen! Pilots either accept the **** because they have to due to family committments or another genuine reason OR leave, and many are!

If the likes of you think its different then you are catagorically wrong!

Give me 3 ways you can fix the rot in ryanair beachbumflyer?!!!!
What bright spark went off in your head :rolleyes: that makes you think solutions have not been exhausted already!?

You will think of NOT ONE!!!

You know nothing about how this company works from your bar-stool! AND if you think you can suggest solutions there are 2500 pilots in ryanair waiting in earnest for your intellectual and concrete solutions from the sidelines!! :D

wayupthere

7th Jan 2011, 21:37

maverick777
well said :D

Lord Spandex Masher

7th Jan 2011, 22:57

Maybe. Apart from this bit:

You know nothing about how this company works from your bar-stool!

Simple question. How do you know what we know?

CHfour

7th Jan 2011, 23:32

Simple question. How do you know what we know?

How do you know he doesn't know what you know? There will be things he knows he does not know and other things he doesn't know he doesn't know. Maybe what you know falls into the latter category?:)

bonernow

8th Jan 2011, 00:45

I've now left Ryanair & I'm in a place where the sun shines and the sand is plentiful. And the reason why I left is because everything Maverick says is true. Back in 2006 the Ryanair Pilots had a real opportunity to actually do something about the working conditions and REPA had some real movement. Things were actually looking promising and I for one was gutted when things didn't go well with the pay votes in the bases in 2007. Sadly, that was a real missed opportunity for Ryanair Pilots and I fear an opportunity like that will never return.

But it's not just Ryanair Pilots that have messed things up. Look at jet2 with 70% working etc, Easyjet with flexible contracts, Thomas Cook are doing the same. How can something like that occur at a unionised company like TCX? Didn't the TCX Pilots complain to BALPA? The bottom line is, a career in the UK with decent T's and C's is impossible unless you join BA. But as money talks, how long is it going to be before BA looks to cut costs and Flight Deck T's and C's suffer? After all, BA have to compete with the likes of easy and Ryanair for traffic. And the public tend to look at price before anything else.

The sad fact is that just about everyone (pilot or not) want's someone else to fight their corner for them. If the Pilots would actually fight for themselves............................... But that's never going to happen.

fastidious bob

8th Jan 2011, 02:41

Looks like the exodus is happening in other airlines too.

"Vijaya Mallya-owned Kingfisher Airlines is facing a shortage of commanders as a good number of them have left and joined other carriers in the last 18 months. CNBC-TV18’s Swati Khandelwal Jain reports that almost 168 pilots quit in the last 18 months. Around 72 commanders quit in the last 18 months.
The airline now faces a shortage of around 47 commanders."

dcsagcs

8th Jan 2011, 02:50

Tell me a good place to fly, please!!! I have been working for a brazilian carrier named TAM which lost 85 pilots in 2010. And no changes are expected... :ugh:

RAT 5

8th Jan 2011, 12:14

From a captain friend in Jetairways India they are very short of B737 captains. You'll have to research the T's & C's. Is it people leaving or uncovered expansion? I don't know.
The thing with any employer, they can test the water quite often. If they squeeze and nobody leaves they stay like that for a while, let you get used to it and it then becomes the norm. Then they squeeze a little bit more, perhaps too hard, back off a little until the squealing stops and they stay at that level. Guess what; it is a little squeeze after all and the employer has moved forward. Again, that becomes the norm. New guys come in with no complaints because they know only today's T's & C's.
It happened with the pax T's & C's. Go back 10 years, even 5 years, and compare what s$£t they put up with now compared to then. Guess what, the competitiors followed in the wake. Now it a great game, they can work as a team. One airline squeezes the pax in one area, the rest watch the results on pax figures. No effect, so they adopt that policy. Another squeezes somewhere else; same result, they all follow. Slowly it becomes the norm for all airlines and the pax have no choice. An example is baggage charge and booking fee/credit card charge. Even the majors have jumper on the c.c. charge band wagon. Just consider, one LoCo's books 70m pax a year at 6euros a pop for cc charge. Guess what their profit was. They make an annual profit not from flying a/c but from screwing the pax on a cc charge. Imagine if they upped it by 1 euro. Would it really effect the pax numbers? I doubt it, but see what it'll do to profit. It's like having your own printing press for euros.
The same attitude goes for employees' T's & C's. They look at each other and if the one your with offers just enough above the competition, plus no change of base and thus no disruption of family, then who is going to swap horses. It has to be a significant improvement to up-heave the family. If they all adopt the same naff T's & C's then there's no greener grass round the corner. It's a long way away. For the younger ones they can go to a major and wait it out. It's the longer toothed guys who are stuck.
What will happen eventually is there will be not enough F/O's to promote because they will have looked into the future and not liked what they saw, and left. The expansion will slow or stop; there will be empty left seats and some carrots will need to be thrown. Everybody will be throwing carrots and some will not be able to have big enough and shiny enough ones. They will suffer. If they go bust, the whole cycle starts again because any job is better than no job. The laws of the jungle are once again king. There might be a short window of opportunity at the start of the carrot throwing to gain a little ground, but it will sink back quickly on later contracts once the big boys have their monopoly muscles back again.
But look around you and see a dumbed down world. Lowest price is everything, not best value. They are not the same thing. The public will spend the least and put up with dire stuff for short travel times. More to spend at the destination, so expect little public sympathy. It's a difficult one to find best solution for, especially in the present climate. Excellent profits, but still the screws are on. Do not enter the jungle with eyes wide shut.

Lord Spandex Masher

8th Jan 2011, 12:21

How do you know he doesn't know what you know? There will be things he knows he does not know and other things he doesn't know he doesn't know. Maybe what you know falls into the latter category?:)

I knew you were going to say that.

d105

8th Jan 2011, 14:50

RAT 5 that's a very nice way of summing up the situation.

A solution would be global pilot unions. If not, at least on the continent level such as the Americas, Europe, Asia. In the US and Europe you have the ability to force your companies to recognize that union. Now wouldn't that be a beautiful thing.

Damianik

9th Jan 2011, 00:04

IFALPA anyone? like with IATA for tickets and codeshares, the airlines should all negotiate hourly rates and benefits for the amount of pilots to be hired directly with IFALPA, and not divide and conquer us by offering carrots and sticks, all different t and c to any one of us. There should be a international contract with T and C for any pilot with 200, 1000, 3000 and 5000 hours, SIC, PIC, LTC, TRI and TRE. Regardless of the moment of the year, the desperadness of the pilots and the color of their skin!

This is not only valid for aviation actually, all the world should go towards a real globalization, that is not only a free movement of money for the rich, but also a free spreading of RIGHTS for everyone else.

When the market is out of control and runs to the bottom, the morals and rights have to be forced and written in stone, that those will become the norm and the people will adapt, just when we adapt to the bottom we can adapt to something better and more sustainable again.
It is not too late, at all.
D

essexboy

9th Jan 2011, 00:21

Used to have this it was called USSR.

bonernow

9th Jan 2011, 01:07

Essex Boy,

The USSR failed for many reasons. I don't see the correlation between DMK's post and your comment.

Please enlighten me and/or any other pprune'r following this thread?

Damianik

9th Jan 2011, 10:24

USSR??

Never heard of the minimum wages for factory workers, minimum wages for ship crew and officers, minimum wages for doctors, minimum wages for lawyers, minimum wages for bank clerks? Those are called national or category contracts, or agreements, and are valid nowdays, the great free market era, to regulate the market.

The pilot category is one of the many, unfortunate catergories without such a baseline agreement, so virtually a pilot can work for free, without anything being illegal or immoral.

D

MichaelOLearyGenius

9th Jan 2011, 13:50

The USSR failed for many reasons.

And your idea for a global or continental rate of pay would fail too for the same reasons, have you ever heard of free trade?

Damianik

9th Jan 2011, 15:28

There is no such thing as free trade. Every trade is governed and regulated, every exchange of money or goods has minimums and maximum, even the stock exchange gets governed if it hits a certain % of + or - .
What you say it is the classic example of a now old belief: the contrary of free trade is the dark ages.
The contrary, the dark ages are now, with people having to scream "i work for less" until they can actually get the job, even if that will make them not able to pay the bills of services and buy the food from the same country where their job is considered worthless.

Governing the free trade is the only way to be a trade in a democratic and peaceful world, the rest is caos. The only way to stop the cyclic crisis from happening is to have an index value for the work of people, based on which the market can adjust up or down,with a degree of freedom depending on current season, but not wildly. We cannot have a 737 captain flying from A to B getting half of the same 737 guy taking off 5 min later to the same destination, just because so the first airline can make a bigger profit out of him.

Fuel costs are the same all over europe plus or minus, and the rest of the expenses for airlines are quite well regulated, taxes, maintenance, handling.
Only workforce costs are going wildly up and down, because the governments never did anything to stop the FREE TRADE of humans!

back to the 1700s

D

Doug the Head

9th Jan 2011, 16:51

Interesting theory Damianik,

First you make a capitalistic deal with the devil selling your soul to the highest bidder in return for a shiny jet and a quicky upgrade. Then, when this lo-cost hell turns out to be a little bit hotter than anticipated, you want communism to come to the rescue...

Hahahahaha!

Have fun in DXB (located in that religious powder keg called the Middle East!) preaching your new found love for the teachings of a certain Karl Marx, and in doing so, remember what good ol' Karl had to say about "religion being the opiate for the masses!" :ok: ;)

@ RAT 5, spot on! :ok:

@ Vexed: Personally I hope there is an exodus - it's the only way some people will get to see an improvement in their t&c's.You see, that's the whole problem. You hope that others will leave so that somebody else again (in this case management) will magically improve T&C's without you lifting a finger. Well....that ain't gonna happen dude! You don't magically "get" anything in this world, you'll have to grab the bull by the horns yourself!

beachbumflyer

9th Jan 2011, 17:43

Maverick,
3 ways: fight, fight, and fight.
I'm with you guys, not against.

bonernow,

The opportunity will come again, and Ryanair pilots will have to be ready when it comes.
"If the pilots would actually fight for themselves". That's right, nobody is going to fight for them. Not even many of Ryanair pilots will. So, there is no other way but fight, fight, and fight.
If your are planning on staying at Ryanair until you retire and not taking all this crap then you'll have to fight to fix the place.
How I'll do it:
Form an in-house union so you can deal with the problem of all the different bases. Affiliate that union to all the national unions, BALPA, SEPLA, etc.
Seek for professional advice.
Convince management that having a happy workforce is for the benefit of everybody; the company and the workforce. A happy workforce is more productive than an unhappy one.
And be ready to strike if you need to. Airplanes don't fly without pilots, and airlines don't make money with the airplanes on the ground.
The company has more to lose than the pilots, it is making a LOT of money
and management would not want a strike and lose money. The pilots can always go somewhere else.

widered

9th Jan 2011, 19:50

@Doug the head i think you hit the nail on the head and its great to see people finally singing from the same hym sheet.

If we take the Allied pilots Association for a quick example they have come threw some just adverse situations as we do in Ryanair with American Airlines.
In a deeply anti union country they have won better terms and conditions.But they did it threw very good organisation and teamwork working togetheir.They realised that every pilot needs to do something not just join a union but work towards achieving its goals,and be prepared to strike if neccesary.

As a reluctant contracter im aware that i have just as much rights as an employee under irish law.

The reality is the management will continue to squeese and squeese the pilots for maximum work rate and minimal pay back until we stand up to them and say enough is enough but it takes every one of YOU...

For me almost every pilot agrees that we need to stand up to them..But some will always fall victim to the Ryanair propaganda and im sure it wont be long before we hear it here.

Damianik

10th Jan 2011, 14:53

@ Doug: What the hell are you talking about?
i think u mistaken me for someone else, i was always thinking this way since i started my career 12 years ago in what was a Legacy Carrier, still a FO because i left a low cost when disgusted, and now on the way to another Legacy, so i think u really got all wrong about who i am.

Anyways, if you really like the free market you are free to give up and accept its misery.

easy

10th Jan 2011, 15:12

If on the way to another legacy, why apply for a contract job flying MD-11's ex Helsinki? just curious...

Damianik

10th Jan 2011, 15:15

Cause the Legacy is Turkish Airlines.

(Pilot Jobs Network - for students of pilot schools and experienced airline pilots (http://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com) calls Turkish Airlines a Legacy, before you comment)

D

JW411

10th Jan 2011, 15:38

I have absolutely no problem reading about how you are all going to apply pressure and Marxist policies etc etc to solve the problem of management versus pilots as you perceive it.

With 46 years of experience in this business I have to tell you that I have heard it all before.

What I do have a problem with is the wonderful title of this thread and the word "exodus" in particular.

Perhaps some of you experts out there (including, and especially the starter of the thread) could give us your definition of the word "exodus".

My concise Oxford dictionary gives me:

"Departure, going forth (esp. of body of emigrants); departure of Israelites from Egypt;"

Now, the funny thing is that every single company that I have ever worked for (apart from Mrs Windsor and Fred Laker) went through what the promising hysterics among you called an "exodus" - sometimes on an annual basis. Not one of those companies actually suffered such an "exodus" such that the management actually gave a sh*t.

Trying to explain to them that losing 5% of a highly trained workforce and that each pilot had cost £20 - £30,000 to train always fell upon deaf ears. No one in management gave a toss about such figures. In terms of operating costs, such a loss was considered to be insignificant.

Nowadays, when the company concerned doesn't even have to pay for the training required for a type-rating and, indeed, might even make a small profit from this process, the loss of even 10% of the work force per annum would not even begin to concern them.

I have even been heavily involved in the process of getting the management to treat the pilots more decently so as to "retain the workforce" and that failed miserably because the dis-satisfied pilots were going to go off anyway to pastures green.

Anyway, keep beating your gums and coming up with the ultimate solution to all of our problems.

Those of us who have been around for the best part of half a century will be fascinated to see how far you get.

Damianik

10th Jan 2011, 16:27

Maybe we should ask the Air France guys how they managed to keep their T and C and ask ourself and the one around for 50 years how we managed to get to this point.

I remember my father speaking of a general contract for pilots in the 80s, and it all still makes sense, and there is nothing so USSR in it. Who says it is, it is probably one around for a long time and now enjoying the fruit of being needed at short notice for this or that contract, for those silly startup operations in dunnonda or whatever.
Lets try to analyze the industry on a longer term prosperity fashion.

I only simply say : lawyers, bankers and factory workers have a general contract with minimum wages because part of a category, so since we also have a common license and common skills we sell, we should all get the same basic minimum wage, that grows with experience on a recognized level such as Hours, Training Roles, Managements Roles.

Easy to discard it just cause it's hard to achieve.

D

RAT 5

10th Jan 2011, 16:48

I remember the days when I worked for a small fresh charter airline. It was the baby of the boss and the jewel in his eye. The Financial Director was as anti-union as every one else in management. He took great delight in devising extreme policies to discourage pilots from becoming members of the national union. Penalties: sound familiar. He said the company could not afford it. T's & C's were the bottom of the national pile. We tried to form an internal committee to negotiate with him. Resisted. We said it would be a pilots' association. No, No, No. Would not discuss it. I asked him about his membership of the accountants' & fiance directors' association. It was there is discuss general standards in the industry, nationaly. A cartel of sorts that fixed hourly rates and conditions etc. He would not respond to his hypocracy. The company went bust 3 years later after a salary cut at the coal face but sweet fruits shared each year amongst management (bonuses). Not a union insight. It went bust a further 3 times before being rescued by a larger patent, and still enjoys the bottom of the pile T's & C's despite being a member of the union. Strength of argument stood for nix. Moral argument stood for nix. Hypocracy won the day and weak willed employees got screwed, 'helping the company'. That was 20 years ago. No doubt Eastern guys can tell simliar stories. Easy guys perhaps also. One things for sure, airline managers are not silver hearted charities. There is a college in the sky that produces these types. They are in every airline. It churns them out by the dozens and they always survive, even after failure, and end up doing it all over again. The good guys you never hear of. Are there any out there? They operate directly opposite to all accepted modern industrial relations philosophies. I often asked why and never received an answer. They wouldn't last a wink outside a non-vocational industry. Why? Ask yourselves and weep.

Quality Time

10th Jan 2011, 16:59

Rat you should write a book and it should be mandatory reading for the ATPL!

Doug the Head

10th Jan 2011, 17:39

Hi Damianik,

Sorry for having blown some of your statements a bit out of proportion. I was merely having a bit of fun with the pro-communism angle. ;)

In general I mostly agree with the idea of your posts, however I do think that in the end it's the pilots that will have to negotiate a better deal, instead of depending on government agencies (i.e. communism/socialism) to set up minimum wages etc.

Let the market decide the wages. One of the main reasons for the decay in T&C's IMHO is the continuous increase in the supply of desperate, wet behind the ears, frozen ATPL pilots.

It's a clever ploy from banks, airlines and flying schools to completely distort the demand/supply side of pilots by selling naive 18 years olds the dream of becoming an airline pilot. It's these poor youngsters (and their parents who mortgage the house to back up the loan!) that bear most of the risks. The banks (interest) the airlines (selling type ratings, lowering T&C's) and flying schools (customers) are the ones that are profiting the most.

Forget the general media, the regulators or politicians! It's here on PPRuNe (and similar international forums) that we have to make aspiring pilots aware of the enormous financial risks involved and the bleak outlook on recovering the huge investments necessary to become a pilot. I certainly discourage anyone I speak to who wants to become a pilot from mortgaging their (and their parent's) savings in chase of a Fata Morgana.

On topic, I wish all the Ryanair pilots the best in their quest for a better life, but I seriously doubt that fleeing to the Middle East will change things in the long run.

Damianik

10th Jan 2011, 20:46

Agree with your post now, Doug,
but i still think u mistaken me for someone else :-)

Anyways , in most of the cases it is impossible to leave the negotiation of such and important thing like minimum wages,or maximum working hours, minimum rest etc to "pilots". The governments and also the authorities need to be involved, or we will always face at least 10% of the pilots that will go the "extra mile" (to the bottom) and lower the T&C or even fly that little more, and go around that little less....see where i am going with this? when the management can say what they want to us, they couldnt fight the law that will be valid for all of us as the Class 1 medical, the ATPL Theory, and all that we have in common with each other. And if anyone of you think that this will create a problem for struggling airlines to cope, i answer let them die and lets see how many pilots a group of solid, profit making airlines can hire, i bet the same number of pilots that now are struggling to make a living while flying a single 737 of an airline fleet of 1...what we need are more pilots and less directors of this, director of that...less airlines, more planes, better rules, more respect, less cutting corners, more barriers to enter the market both for pilots and airlines! half of the 18 years old guys wouldnt pass an airline selection for a cadetship nowdays, let them face with the harsh truth!

16024

11th Jan 2011, 18:14

It's an interesting comment on our priorities and ethics when a group of people can band together to have a winge and a moan about spilled coffee/ late trains or whatever, lying down and banging their fists on the ground howling "It's just not fair!" like a 4 year old.
This is called a Class Action.
Another group of people can band together to try to persuade the mill owner to agree to better T&Cs.
This is called communism.

beachbumflyer

12th Jan 2011, 17:16

Vexed,

You're right it is not that simple. It is very hard and complicated, indeed.
And your biggest obstacle would be your fellow pilots.
No, I'm not a Ryanair employee or ever was. I am retired and it sadens me
a lot seeing this profession going down the tubes, it really does.

Callsign Kilo

13th Jan 2011, 14:05

Is there a way of knowing how many are moving on? I know certainly of 6. Maybe its a case of come the summer schedule looking at the departure board and seeing 'cancelled' next to your flight to the summer sun? Maybe MOL couldn't give a **** if there isn't enough bums to put on the front two seats of his 737s? Could it be that the big pot of cash will be wasted on wet leasing (did it before with Futura etc) rather than investing it in his crew? Would it ever get that extreme or will we all be on a 6/1/6/2 come the summer?

Sky Goose

13th Jan 2011, 17:35

Hey Kilo,

Think the exodus is quite substantial, but that just me extrapolating, were a small base and I know of 3 going for sure and many talking about it and heading for interview. Also know of a few in STN leaving, and I only know a few in STN !

As you say, its going to be an interesting summer, or maybe they have some ace up their sleeve? Speaking of ACE, rumor has it they are having trouble crewing the canaries.

Heres to interesting times ahead, hopefully for a change we will be in the bargaining chair....

Goose

Shadowsonclouds

13th Jan 2011, 17:53

From what I've gathered there are plenty leaving. I know at least 10, and quite a few Capts. Not all to the desert though.

I'm lining up a few exits, will do my command hopefully next month do 500 and then go start a 'real' career.

Just out of interest anyone actually know if any Ryanair guys were offered jobs at BA? I know of about 20 gone, all failed! Myself included. I know it sounds like I'm a soreloser, but couldn't help feel unwelcome the whole day I was there, I hope the Ryanair brush hasn't tarred a stereotype of unable pilots as I couldn't disagree more. Be happy to hear that someone actually did get in!

Shadowsonclouds

13th Jan 2011, 17:55

Slightly off topic;

are all Canaries Cat B restricted? i.e are they not available to new upgrades?

Mikehotel152

13th Jan 2011, 18:25

All this talk of an exodus doesn't surprise me. I've never met a pilot at Ryanair who has a good word to say about the management. However, it would surprise me if many people actually left or that any departures caused any disruption.

But I wouldn't be sad if I were forced to endure a busy Spring and Summer seeing as the past year has been pretty dire in terms of hours. Certainly no danger of hitting the 900 hour mark! 800 would be nice...:ooh:

As an aside, I've also spoken with so many long term Ryanair Captains who are disgusted at the way the newer generation are treated. Not that there's much they can do about it.

adwjenk

13th Jan 2011, 18:37

2 new upgrades From my current base are off to the canaries.
They are now currently based else where since the canaries are not open, cannot remember if its restricted, not flown in there in a very long time! If it is they will just be stuck else where for 4-6 weeks why they do 100hrs, just a pain having to move twice, or commute depends on what you want really.

I know of 2 Ryanair pilots waiting for a simulator, and one other who has a start date in May, when I went I had a nice day, everyone was very friendly, got a good vibe from the place, just a shame I messed something up some where along the line.

At my base over the past few months since November 6 pilots have left, and a fair few have interviews lined up, or in some form of interview process, both captains and first officers!

Good luck to all

beernice

18th Jan 2011, 13:47

About 70-80 confirmed resignations in the last 6 months. Or about 3%, the expected attrition rate. I don't think too much sleep is being lost.
Those of you thinking that this rate of attrition will lead to better terms and conditions dream on. We need 2-300 hundred pilots leaving and not being replaced to make an impact. I cant see this happening. All that happens is "willing" pilots agree to work their days off. I can understand FR contract guys doinig it but why in the world would a brookfield "contractor" give up their day off for nothing in return? You dont get any extra money and generally your hours are evened out so you dont get extra hours. It gets FR out of a massive hole and covers up the problems we have.
At the end of the day there are too many FR pilots. We are the ones that have to sort this out for ourselves.
One question to consider.
Ryanair pilots went down the non union route, easyjet pilots went down the union route. Who has the better terms and conditions?
Last time this came up Ryanair countered by saying it would close a UK base and freeze all UK bases. We backed down. What happened?
BOH closed anyway for the winter, pilots sent overseas mostly, most paying their morgages in BOH and paying rent in their new base commuting home.
Bases are effectively frozen, very little movement in or out, and if there is movement its not going to be you, its going to be the new guy.
No Commands. Why would you do command for more or less the same money? If you have a house in the UK and have to rent abroad you will actually be down money.And an uncommutable 5/3 into the bargain.
What have we got to lose?

d105

18th Jan 2011, 15:01

I never answer my phone if it's a private or Irish number calling during my OFF days or while I'm on rest after duty.

Every little bit helps.

Unregistered737

18th Jan 2011, 15:17

beernice - thank you for someone being sensible!

I have no idea why anyone does them any favours. Its not like you get anything in return. I know guys who have been there over a decade and they still have to fight to get the annual leave they want. And then a few weeks before hand being told nope sorry REQUEST DENIED. Thats unless you have a 'management role' which entitles you to a fat bonus if WE save fuel (im not even going to go there with that joke!) and a very part time working schedule.

the times today ran an article about how many aircraft orders had been taken this year. fingers crossed that they are right and we are looking at growth in this industry then some of the pilots from bust airlines will stop feeding the abomination that is ryanair, all it is doing is creating this self perpetuating cycle of lower tnc's

(no offence to the guys who have come to FR from some of these airlines - i am well aware of how tough things can be when you get made redundant)

anyway in the words of PB 'if you don't like it :mad: OFF' so thats what i am planning on doing and I hope some of you other guys and gals will do the same and above all else stop helping them out!

TCU LUX

18th Jan 2011, 16:28

Guys n Gals,

Here are the dates & times of the forthcoming Emirates Info sessions.
I'll be attending one and I hope to see lots of RYR pilots there :ok:.

24th January 2011 - Edinburgh
Apex City Hotel
Time: 10 AM

25th January 2011 - Dublin
Radisson Blu Hotel
Time: 10 AM

26th January 2011 - Belfast
Radisson Blu Hotel
Time: 10 AM

I agree with the earlier post. Rostering are calling much more frequently now...to work off days:=. Let's all not answer our phones and see what happens:oh:

d105

18th Jan 2011, 17:11

All Ryanair destinations. Wouldn't be surprised if PB turned up at at least one of those asking some hostile questions to RYR crew there.

Did it before at Stansted info sessions, will do it again.

widered

18th Jan 2011, 17:24

Unregisterd737 and d105
You are right.I think it has got to the stage in Ryanair that everyone agrees we need a Union.
people are now starting to realise Ryanair has a policy of attacking its workforce to keep us subdued like mushrooms keep us in the dark and feed us ****.
But the change starts with all of us.Ring your old friends in Ryanair you can trust ask them to get involved to defend our ts and cs.Latest rumur is canaries bases will be 5'2 5'3
As bad as they are the business model that is Ryanair will bring them lower unless we do something.
Every little thing we do to change this will help.dont just join REPA or BALAP/IALPA but do something to help out...
As bad as they are the rumours of 5 3 is our oppurtunity to organise.
Its already a worry that commercial gain is more important than safety to management.
No exodus or people leaving will change anything. we all have to stand up to these bullying tactics for our profession and careers

McNulty

18th Jan 2011, 23:02

All Ryanair destinations. Wouldn't be surprised if PB turned up at at least one of those asking some hostile questions to RYR crew there.

Did it before at Stansted info sessions, will do it again.

Oh I would love for him to approach me on an off day, in my home town, and try to tell me what to do in my time off. I really would.

Unregistered737

19th Jan 2011, 09:36

widered,

i love you enthusiasm i really do but a union in ryanair....not going to happen with this management.

the only thing that we can do is ask the FO's to turn down the command and put up with their idle threats. they are going to come massively unstuck if they can't get the command upgrades required to fill these S**T hole bases. Unfortunately there are FO's out there who's sole target is to be a captain within 3/4 years fair enough if your 35+ but these guys who are 25ish for gods sake you are going to be flying a plane for the next 30 years of your life relax and enjoy the fact the captain takes all the responsibility. all the FO needs to do is turn up on time, fill in all the paperwork, maybe bring a paper (there are free ones outside the crew room!) and a coffee for the captain and enjoy the view.....simples!

As for the 5/3 i don't believe it....they went that way a few years back and it doesn't work they end up having to work the captains to the limit of their 100 hours and come the new year they don't have any hours remaining. Oh and to help put a spanner in the works stop taking the extra cash when they offer you a flight so that some guy on his working week gets a bloody stby! you all moan about being put on stby but you are all happy to take the money of someone else....hmmm

I would love things to change but there are so many selfish people out there who can't see the wood from the trees. think its time we all started looking after each other.....i hate to quote David Cameron but i think this is one thing he has got right

"You can call it liberalism. You can call it empowerment. You can call it freedom. You can call it responsibility. I call it the Big Society"

here endeth the lesson

U737

nick14

19th Jan 2011, 09:45

I had a phone call on my leave days (which I stupidly answered) and got a bo*****ng for the week before Christmas, you remember the one with all the snow and airport closures.....I felt so valued!

I have always been against unions and strikes but I'm quite pro now.

widered

19th Jan 2011, 10:10

Unregistered737
That is exactly the attitude management like to promote despondency between us,
It is possible. we just need to start believing it.
Do you think anything ever got done with that attitude,Pilots have been in worse situations with management as I said before the Allied pilots association in American Airlines,
Do you think the Jet2 lads said the same thing before they got BALPA recognition.
If its not possible why did management make such an effort during the last recognition campaign to stop it happening.They now its possible as so we need to believe it.
Success is the sum of small efforts, repeated day in and day out.

maverick777

19th Jan 2011, 10:34

beernice

About 70-80 confirmed resignations in the last 6 months. Or about 3%, the expected attrition rate. I don't think too much sleep is being lost.

The ryanair.com website has been updated in the last few days saying that DEC's are now considered.....A sign of the lies.... of bellew and obrien.... a sign that sleep IS being lost!???? :cool:

I agree with you that not too much sleep is being lost by :mad:hole David OBrien and P Bellew but for certain, they are NOT sleeping comfortably!!!!!

70-80 confirmed means for definite few hundred, if not a heck of a lot more, seriously considering their options! :rolleyes:

Furthermore on a postiive note, after the extremity of the SHAFTING that FR pilots have gotten especially the Permanent Ryanair pilots, one thing is becoming more clear month-by-month i.e. pilot loyalty and adherence, and conformity and acceptance of suppression is running EXTREMELY THIN!!
And as WIDERED stated
keep us subdued like mushrooms keep us in the dark and feed us **** ETC ETC ETC. This is becoming a strong thread in the toughts and minds of the pilot workforce who has been in FR long enuf to feel the hot poker in the :mad: which ryanair has dished out!

McBruce

19th Jan 2011, 11:26

I was called to work a day off and said no, for my trouble I got 5 standby days on my next duty week.... either way as beer said, the hours even out so if I loose 20 hours this week, I gain it on another but it doesn't make it ok for crewcontrol to screw you and because of this, I will say no again as I will not help the people out who screwed me.

In terms of the roster, well RYR clearly want the 5/3 for the summer, otherwise they wouldn't continue to offer this on new bases. If you look at the new FTL proposals which BALPA are fighting then airlines can utilise they're crew more in busy months, which means more rostered days required, which could mean a nail in the coffin to the 5/4, so don't brush this one under the carpet!

See yous guys at the EK road show! :E for me, I'm actively looking elsewhere, the CU is on the horizon and I'm not too interested in being bonded, being sent to some **** hole on a 5/3 where I can't commute home and we all know what its like to try and get to a base you want to be... atleast Denise is gone, but no doubt shes been replaced by some one of similar personality, although I do hope not and an improvement is made in this area.

If they had a list and people got where they wanted to go eventually then this would make a lot of people happier, just now, theres too much uncertainty.

Unregistered737

19th Jan 2011, 11:42

i think there are ways of standing up to them without the need for a union.

firstly stop the FO's taking command upgrades....no captains, no planes flying If maverick777 is right and they are opening up DEC's that surely means they thought all their FO's would co-operate but they are not...quel surprise!

secondly captains on fixed contracts need to stop being so greedy and taking the extra cash for working a day off. this then means they can't get the people to cover stbys and the whole thing falls apart when someone calls in sick or goes out of hours....stick to your own bloody roster!

thirdly this whole brookfield thing is a complete scam, its barely on the limits of being legal...this extract is taken from HMRC and is used to determine whether or not you are employed or self employed.....

As a general guide as to whether a worker is an employee or self-employed; if the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, then the worker is probably an employee:

Do they have to do the work themselves?
Can someone tell them at any time what to do, where to carry out the work or when and how to do it?
Can they work a set amount of hours?
Can someone move them from task to task?
Are they paid by the hour, week, or month?
Can they get overtime pay or bonus payment?
If the answer is 'Yes' to all of the following questions, it will usually mean that the worker is self-employed:

Can they hire someone to do the work or engage helpers at their own expense?
Do they risk their own money?
Do they provide the main items of equipment they need to do their job, not just the small tools that many employees provide for themselves?
Do they agree to do a job for a fixed price regardless of how long the job may take?
Can they decide what work to do, how and when to do the work and where to provide the services?
Do they regularly work for a number of different people?
Do they have to correct unsatisfactory work in their own time and at their own expense?

From where i stand....i am an employee!

surely a quick email to HMRC would show that this whole thing is a joke and not quite kosher. Once we do finally get rid of Brookfield this opens up a whole new arena for the unions to come in and keep Vexed happy seeing as we will finally be on common ground.

is this not standing up for what is "right and fair" and the "sum of small efforts every day"? we don't need a union...we need to play them at their own game.

see easy! all done without a union in sight! ;)

d105

19th Jan 2011, 13:46

Denise gone? So they finally got rid of that hag. Anyone know what happened?

wrong_stuff

19th Jan 2011, 14:37

any union would have to be RYR wide - not just UK pilots, otherwise they'll just close / dramatically downsize the UK bases and send the planes abroad. And the problem will remain.

In the meantime - as stated above - DONT WORK ON DAYS OFF.

If you're the type who finds it hard to say no to the sweet well mannered phone monkeys in crew control / rostering then dont answer your phone to unknown / irish numbers when not on standby.

If you do, you're shafting the rest of us and you're one of them, not one of us.

As for command upgrades, i couldn't be less interested. Even if they threaten me with a base change whether i upgrade or not (the latest tactic?), i still wont. Hope others feel the same.

d105

19th Jan 2011, 16:55

Have heard of it but don't know anyone personally. FO's telling their base TRE they don't feel ready for an upgrade. Moved to another base 3 months later due to "operational reasons".

beachbumflyer

19th Jan 2011, 17:49

widered,

You're very well right. That's the only way to go. But you will find it very hard to convince other fellow pilots to think like you.
I think the only way to improve your T&C's it to hit the company where it hurts them the most. And that is money. So, going on stike will probably be the only option to make management change. If they see that they are loosing money they will change. They feel now very strong because they see the pilot group very weak and that they can do whatever they want with you guys.

d105

19th Jan 2011, 22:54

That would be absolutely true in a conventional airline Bum. However, more than half of Ryanair's pilots are contractors. If they go on strike Ryanair will only start to lose out on the money if they can't muster the staff to man all their flights.

For that to happen you'd need a very large number of pilots willing to go on strike. The chances of getting to such a number without any form of union or proper organisation is rather slim.

MichaelOLearyGenius

20th Jan 2011, 00:11

there's never been a truer saying than "you reap what you sow", probably all you guys bitching here condoned this management behaviour when you signed up for the type rating and the Brookfield Contract.

You were warned at the time but you never listened, unfortunately there is a queue from Lands end to John O'Groats waiting to fill your boots.

Good riddance!!!! You asked for it so stop complaining!!!

beernice

20th Jan 2011, 00:23

Good to be talking amoungst friends.
A few points.
Unregistered 727 " love you enthusiasm i really do but a union in ryanair....not going to happen with this management."
Why not, it is us that vote for a union not management. I agree unions are behind the changes that have happened in the airline industry in the last few years but as a start all pilots in FR join BALPA. We can work out the politics later.
Wrong stuff "any union would have to be RYR wide - not just UK pilots, otherwise they'll just close / dramatically downsize the UK bases and send the planes abroad".
Yes on the union europe wide. Why would any company close/ downsize a base just because of a union. Do you think that the base exists just because there is no union or because there is a profit to be made?. do not buy in to the scare tatics. If a base is to closed or downsized it will be. BOH!!!!

Pressman "I think 70-80 is a bit conservative as well " I know what I am talking about. That is confirmed leaving. take it or leave it!
beachbumflyer "And that is money. So, going on stike will probably be the only option to make management change"
I would never go on strike!! However from time to time I catch a virus and that can be very contagous!! A lot of other guys can catch it, may take us all out.
d105 "That would be absolutely true in a conventional airline Bum. However, more than half of Ryanair's pilots are contractors"
Ah oh no their not! The irish revenue have already accepted you are employees. Hence the "mcNamara" deal. Its just a scam to avoid employee taxes thats about to change this year! Brookfield guys will be paying tax. If any BRK "contractor"had the balls to take this to court they would win. And you are supposed to abide to the Ryanair FTL's. Try that on a 5/3!!

By the way in Ireland it is illegal to pay a precentage of your wage for a service. It is either a set fee or billable hours.
So who has it better Easyjet or Ryanair?
Shame the girls and boys of Aer Lingus are showing us the way. Only mistake they made is not to wait until late May,.
Again what have we got to lose !!!!( but leave the fight to May)

widered

20th Jan 2011, 08:57

Michaeolearygenius- first off i'll start with the name, there is nothing genius about cost cutting if your ruthless enough and then even more ruthless with 3 billion in the bank earning 400- 600 a million a year in profit but still finding it necesary to cut your staffs salaries and conditions.its just plain greed.

You reap what you sow--I took the job in Ryanair as a reluctant contracter because it was a sounder financial decision than going on the dole.If i didnt join, the system would still be the same because thats the way ryanair have created it.this has been discussed at lenght add nausuem.
Bearing this in mind this doesnt mean i cannot disagree with the way the company operates because as a professional pilot i believe it is my duty to stand up to anyone company or otherwise that may encroach on safety for financial gain.

Unregistered737

20th Jan 2011, 09:24

MOLgenius are you his new b***h who was the successful applicant for his business development course and given his first task? I am sure when MOLGenius is at the pearly gates he will get a message saying REQUEST DENIED. Reap and sow MOL!

Oh and for this long list of people from lands end to John o'groats.....you can't put guys with 250hrs in the RHS despite you thinking FO's are a useless waste of space :mad:

I have made three suggestions on how to 'bring down' the management but don't see anyone else producing viable options......where do we go from here? Are we not stuck for another 4yrs after the last failed balpa attempt? I think pprune is great but it generally is nothing but hot air we need some action people! (feeling slightly anarchist today maybe it was watching the student protest last night!) :E

wrong_stuff

20th Jan 2011, 10:19

MOLGenius, you were probably after a flaming but many people will actually agree that you do reap what you sow. As for being warned about RYR but not listening - i'm now in a far better position than when i finished my initial training with lots of high quality training and experience on the 738 - it was a logical move at a time when nobody else was hiring and your advice was wrong, basically.

Also, reaping what you sow applies to ryanair too. As someone else said, a large number of us took the decision to work for them reluctantly, when everybody else was going bankrupt and laying off pilots. It was a sensible move under the circumstances and i personally joined with an open mind, but the company is clearly getting worse and worse and its now time to take the red pill and go back into the real world...

whatdoesthisbuttondo

20th Jan 2011, 12:18

The problem is that all the once decent 'other airlines' terms and conditions have plummeted towards Ryanair's because you guys worked for Ryanair.

You all condoned crap conditions in the first place but will now never be able to achieve what those before you managed in legacy airlines.

This downward spiral race to the bottom is only because all the good airlines are telling their pilots that "Ryanair pilots only get x why should you get any more?" all the time.

MichaelOLearyGenius

20th Jan 2011, 12:42

I don't think any of the responders to my post actually have the savvy to understand what I was saying. It was all you "get my arse on the RHS no matter the cost" guys that have got the situation to what it is now. You bent over with your pants at your ankles then and never complained and you're doing the same now. Trust me, if everyone had stood up and said at the time, "no I'm not paying for a TR", things would be better now. That was the start of the slippery slope. Maybe they would not be as big an airline as they are now but would this be a bad thing?

So you bent over and said nothing the first time and paid for the TR so management have no reason to believe you won't bend over and say nothing again. Talk of a strike in FR is just claptrap, no one is big enough to stand up to them. You started this mess so stop complaining, nobody forced you to pay for the TR so shut up and lie in the horrible little bed you all made for yourself yet strenuously deny "it's not my fault it was my only option", guys it was so definitely "your own fault"!!!!!!

Wrong stuff, you may have a shed load of high quality hours now but you are not or appear not to be happy in your current role, do you really think it's going to be better T&C's in other airlines, most airlines have jumped on the FR bandwagon now unfortunately.

d105

20th Jan 2011, 13:55

Guys lets not fall into the trolling trap MOLGenius or Whatdoesthisbuttondo are trying to set up. Just ignore it.

Unregistered737

20th Jan 2011, 14:00

MOLG - we are not as stupid as you so yes we understand your posts. Please tell me where the difference is between a bond for 3 years on a reduced salary and paying for the TR upfront on a full salary. With debt being very cheap (if you can get it) I reckon I am better off paying upfront. For a supposedly trained accountant you ain't the brightest of sparks.

I earn better money working for FR than most of my counterparts but when it comes to doing the command with them that's when it becomes ridiculous. None of us who have lives want to move to another base on reduced salary and a non-commutable roster and hence the recent upsurge of people turning them down. It is FR who is loosing out here with some very capable and good pilots leaving to other companies. From 90% of the guys I have spoken to at my level they aren't going to take the command regardless of you sending them away to another base because they know it's not right. So we are standing up for ourselves. Personally I am going to everything in my power to make sure I get those interviews that are cropping up on an increasingly regular basis now and get the hell out of here (I got a couple lined up - apparently they like the FR guys as we work quickly and efficiently and know how to programme an FMC - thanks for the training FR you have done me proud, I did pay MOL for it though so I presume it's all part of the service)

I can't speak for wrong stuff but I am happy. I work with some very nice people, can go home from work and forget about it and in my bed every night, depending on your tax bill at the end of the year my net income has been enough to be able to reduce all of my loan to virtually nothing (I don't go and splash out on the latest BMW/Audi!)

As for TnC's being the same at other airlines, firstly please provide me with the evidence secondly I won't be any worse off than I am now so again where is the problem.

MOLG- you sound like a guy who is stuck on a turboprop who should of paid for the TR but instead your bonded to a company for 3 years and now you hours don't count for s**t. If your not like 'this guy' then you will no doubt have countless health problems from being so stressed all the time!

who's the savvy one now.......:mad: