Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?

[Nearly There]

Thread drift I know, but similar thing last week at LPL, FR coming in from the west offered 09 but ILS is out, opted for procedure on 27 instead of a straight in visual approach to 09, WX was 8/8 blue sky no wind, could have been any number of reasons I suppose, I just thought it odd to opt for the long way in.

[bigdaviet]

Strange but in the grand scheme of things there could be a whole load of reasons.

Perhaps just very high on the profile or very SOP minded and not wanting to hold to fully brief a visual approach which had not been previously mentioned.

Or is there a more sinister motive at work here? Deliberately flying in an inefficient manner?

[Sky Goose]

@bigdaviet
Think yours is likely the correct answer, high on profile and approach not briefed, so more prudent and less exciting to go for the planned option, havent heard of deliberate fuel wasting online as yet, would not be my choice. We are professionals after all, even if we are not treated as such.

[wayupthere]

Or a <500hr f/o who's PF

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Why? Are Ryanair Captains not able to command?

[Kernow 101]

Of course.... But an F/O with less than 500hrs is not authorised to do a visual :8

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Gotcha.







extra letters to satisy something somewhere

[fivegreenlight]

"Of course.... But an F/O with less than 500hrs is not authorised to do a visual"

solution = "I have control". Simples:ok:

[Lazy skip]

Can anyone confirm that few weeks ago around 30 guys gathered in front of PB office to tell him they were all off to BA?

[fireflybob]

"Of course.... But an F/O with less than 500hrs is not authorised to do a visual"

solution = "I have control". Simples

not quite as simple as you think - it's a requirement to do a full brief for a visual so if this has not been planned/anticipated then that would not be very good CRM.

[teddyman]

Wouldn't flying be more interesting if there where more pilots like fivegreenlights. I have control and let us do a manual non briefed apporach!!
:cool:

What the heck. They changed the RWY, so what let us do a visual.

Surely nothing can go wrong. Come on Guys. :=

Happy Landings

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Of course you could negate all of that by including a visual brief when you're briefing the approach.

That, is simples.

[fireflybob]

Of course you could negate all of that by including a visual brief when you're briefing the approach.

That, is simples.

Of course you could but there again you could brief for the non-precision approach in case the ILS fails! Are you saying that you always accept a late runway change when offered by atc? In an ideal world we would anticipate all eventualities but it's down to the Captain to decide whether that is acceptable or not and besides how do you know they are not training and the guy under training is flying his first line sector?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Depends what you mean by late.

If it is more commercial and efficient and can be achieved without rushing, yes. It will have been briefed beforehand.

Obviously if the weather is cack and staying cack there's no point briefing for it.

Like you say,
it's a requirement to do a full brief for a visual so if this has not been planned/anticipated then that would not be very good CRM.

besides how do you know they are not training and the guy under training is flying his first line sector?

Obviously I don't. I'm just speaking more generally and not commenting specifically on these instances.

[fireflybob]

Obviously I don't. I'm just speaking more generally and not commenting specifically on these instances.

In that case, LSM, I forgive you!

Just peeves me when threads turn into a bashing of XYZ airline when we all do more or less the same thing - there seem to be quite a few people around who delight in "flying" other people's aircraft rather than their own.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Nope, not Ryanair bashing (this time;))

[VJW]

Vexed- as an FO I do (subject to Captains objection) request visuals on every approach, and if denied, I'll fly manual raw data on 90% of my landings, as soon as I pass the IAF (don't want to hold raw data- too much effort). The only captains that deny it, don't blame the OFDM, they try to cover up the fact that they can't do it themselves, so don't let an FO do it!

[HundredPercentPlease]

VJW,

I think you'll find that Captains are deciding whether or not you can do it and what the risk change is if you do. The risk change may also be affected by other factors that are connected to your request, but not directly. Different Captains will perceive different risk, and it may well be the case that those who deny are in fact the more perceptive.

After a few years in the left seat, you'll see.

[B737-pilot]

Quote:" Different Captains will perceive different risk, and it may well be the case that those who deny are in fact the more perceptive.

After a few years in the left seat, you'll see. "

I totally agree with the above. At the end the pic is responsible for the A/c even if he is not at the controls. Maybe the F/O is good but not that good ....

[Sky Goose]

Agree with the above, by flying manual you are effectively removing one pilot from the flight deck, as the PM now needs to monitor the PF instead of the PF monitoring the automatics, leaving the PM with more capacity for general situational awareness.
That said if the situation permits ie VMC and uncongested airspace manual flying keeps handling skills up to standard.
But if I was on an ILS and the PF disconnects the automatics in IMC and turns off the flight directors that would take me out my comfort zone.

Serious thread drift...
so any new news on numbers leaving/left or other related rumours ?

[Jet Fuel Addict]

But if I was on an ILS and the PF disconnects the automatics in IMC and turns off the flight directors that would take me out my comfort zone.

Why? You're already on the ILS. What can possibly go wrong?
That is just basic flying skills and what you are (under)paid for.

What do you do if you're flying into an airport IMC where its so turbulent the autopilot is rubbish and flight directors and auto throttle are too slow to respond? That, my friend, does happen!

[PPRuNe Towers]

Are you lot on a bonus for dragging this thread so far off track?

[Jet Fuel Addict]

Heard 20 or so FO's handed in their notice to go work at Arkefly. (TUI)

[thebeast]

4 dutchies in my base off to Arkefly, although all fairly low hour FO's so not gona hurt the company. Captains are busy but seems to be enough of them ...just

[eagerbeaver1]

VJW - You are an obnoxious little sod. Wind you neck in.

Jet fule addict - same for you too old fruit.

I know your type, you both come and go, always the gob****e in the crew room or ramp talking bollocks about something amazing you did.

If you disconnected the autopilot and removed the FD's in IMC on an ILS you would find yourself immediately as the PNF and a call into the base TRE to discuss your inappropriate behaviour.

The arrogance displayed by you both is shocking and unaccpetable.

In 11 years and many many flying hours, I have never been in a situation where the autopilot is unable to maintain an acceptable flight path. If you have then I put it to you that you were somewhere you should not have been thus opening further questions.

You have no rebuttal, take some unfriendly advice and think about the way you go to work.

I am appalled.

[Vmike]

I hear that the management are now deserting the ship. JD in DUB (the one MoL threw a chair at or something) and PB in STN are both allegedly off to the sandpit to count beans for FD and EK respectively.

Anybody know more?

[d105]

The thread about manual flying can be found in the Tech Log section here (http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/453212-your-airlines-policy-about-use-automation-during-flight.html)

With regards to management leaving. I too have heard about the briefcase incident but as usual I would take that with a grain of salt.

Rumours about JDO leaving to Flybai have been persistent for some time now so I would gauge them as rather correct. Haven't heard about PB going for Emirates yet except on the web here.

[Jet Fuel Addict]

In 11 years and many many flying hours, I have never been in a situation where the autopilot is unable to maintain an acceptable flight path. If you have then I put it to you that you were somewhere you should not have been thus opening further questions.

I cannot believe that in 11 years of flying you have not been in a situation where it would be better to disconnect rather than trying to let the autopilot "cope" with the situation. Do we not fly the same equipment?

I don't claim to be an excellent pilot, nor will I ever disconnect AP, AT on an approach (whether its IMC or VMC) without the approval of the PNF. As many have already mentioned there is a time and a place to do this. I'm no idiot.
Bottom line is though that flying an ILS is a pretty basic flying skill.
I would be terribly ashamed if I would not be able to do this.

Also, please don't call me arrogant. :=

Copy pasted into the other forum if you want to keep the discussion going.

[ZBMAN]

If you disconnected the autopilot and removed the FD's in IMC on an ILS you would find yourself immediately as the PNF and a call into the base TRE to discuss your inappropriate behaviour.

This the most hilarious crap I have ever read on pprune. Seriously.

[superced]

ZBMAN je pense qu'il est grand temps d'aller chez AF.....:O

[blind pew]

Thanks for the replies guys, didn't realize that I had opened a can of worms.

Once had landing config 30 odd miles out to get dinner allowance, but then I was working for a bunch of a@@@@@@@s for peanuts.

As to visual and raw data - depends on the competence on the crew.

Did loads of visuals from both seats - absolutely no problem - even did one from 12 grand downwind on my only visit to CCS - now that was fun.

In foehn conditions at ZRH there was a cloud break 16 with a visual circling onto 28 in CAT - aim was to be established by 300ft - sorted out the men from the boys.

Raw data again no problem but if cloud base less than app 800ft used everything that worked as were paid to get the pax where they wanted to go.

I was taught the s@@t about always use the autopilot until I declared a mayday and found that it was the autopilot that was trying to kill us.

If you can't fly manually down to the limits then you shouldn't be in the seat.

[PitotTube]

If you disconnected the autopilot and removed the FD's in IMC on an ILS you would find yourself immediately as the PNF and a call into the base TRE to discuss your inappropriate behaviour

So, tell me how the OFDM can tell if you are in IMC or not..?

I wouldn't think they are comparing OFDM vs METAR ...,

It's all bull****. Not true at all. Nothing happens. No one cares.

[Mikehotel152]

Oh no, so now going to EK is ruled out as well! :(

[Say again s l o w l y]

So, tell me how the OFDM can tell if you are in IMC or not..?

I wouldn't think they are comparing OFDM vs METAR ...,

It's all bull****. Not true at all. Nothing happens. No one cares.

Easily depending on the conditions. However, should FDm data be used in this manner, then it's not exactly how it should be used.

FDM should be there to aid safety monitoring and guide training, not to smack crews around the head with.

I know it does get used like that in some places, but that's not acceptable in my eyes.

[Old King Coal]

Yes, one can fly raw data down to minima, but is that always the safest course of action?!

The reality is that flying with reference solely to 'raw data' (nearly always) removes some element of 'spare capacity' from the PF, and invariably ups the workload / monitoring task of the PNF... these two facts alone would evidently reduce the overall level of safety.

And do trust me when I say that if / when you :mad: it up, your company / bosses (especially so if you're working in the Middle East) will not be sympathetic that you were 'practicing your raw data skills' and / or trying to save 2s6d of fuel (by Spitfiring it on from 300 feet) and such activities are likely to result in 'tea & biscuits' and / or maybe even 'Johnny Out The Door' (with a bad Reference, or maybe none at all) ?!

And knowing this is called 'Experience'! :hmm:

[d105]

Guys we're completely off track here.

Can anyone confirm there is truth in the rumor that PB has left for EK?

[captjns]

JD is off to Fly Dubai!

[eagerbeaver1]

JD I have been told from many sources is leaving.

PB? Who knows.

Old king coal is perfectly correct. Some of you have much to learn....

[thebeast]

if PB leaves presumably DR will be taking his place...hardly great news.

[silverhawk]

Or advertise the position and attract some competent and experienced professional management bod.

[dubaigong]

What was the position of JD in Ryanair ? and do you know what will be his position at Flydubai as they are looking for a new chief pilot...

All in all the poor guys who have left Ryanair for Flydubai will again face the same situation if all these "non desired" people go there....

[jumbojet]

The World is a circle!!

HA HA!

[Fish1]

In 11 years and many many flying hours, I have never been in a situation where the autopilot is unable to maintain an acceptable flight path. If you have then I put it to you that you were somewhere you should not have been thus opening further questions.

Ever had ATC tell you "Expect glideslope interference"? You're going to want to disconnect, or risk the pax throwing up.

[d105]

if PB leaves presumably DR will be taking his place...hardly great news.

The source of the problem remains MOL. It's his über aggressive style of management that radiates from the top floor of the white house through regional managers, base captains and base-supervisors to the very edges of our network.

http://lotrworld.webs.com/Mordor.png

Perhaps we too need a Fellowship of The Yoke to defeat evil once and for all! (:} okay I'll stop being silly now.)

[RAT 5]

In one of the most successful small companies I knew, run by my Dad, there hung in his office, and all his manager's, a framed message:

"Things always go wrong from the top, not the bottom."

Ah, would that those above us realise that. I've worked with 5 airlines that have gone bust, and all over top screw ups while the bottom feeders wallowed in their sludge. Share price is not everything. It is the corruption of life's values that the love of money brings. There will be a bite in the tail, but sadly not always on those who deserve it the most. Often they escape just before the jaws snap shut. The world is littered with self congratulating, early retired, money rich, self delusional gormandies. Sad for those who come after. Big shovels required.

Having worked under the 'odd couple' where they showed how it could & should be done, I've seen both sides of the coin. Their method was very very successful, both financially and productively. A happy ship was a prosperous ship, in spades. It has been done and can be done again. Sadly it is only the few who see the real way. The second coming is nigh, but I'll be past that date. Good luck to those who see the light.

Eye shades on and back to dreaming of earlies.

[Mikehotel152]

Fellowship of the Yoke?

You must be yoking?!


:( I'll get my coat...

[fast & fat]

Anyone thought that the rumour about PB & JD might just be a rumour to stop flight deck heading to fly Dubai?

[eagerbeaver1]

Yes I have been places where there is glideslope interference. I can't imagine how awful it must be if it would make a passenger vomit? You are going to have to do better than that old chum.

[despegue]

Eagerbeaver,

Absolute bollocks. And I HATE these type of guys who go cry at TRE's and/or base captains for every little thing...

And no, I do not have to brief a visual... it is bloody PF's discretion, and we should both be proficient enough to know the aircrafts and company's limitations...if not, stay home.
My God, do you at FR brief anything then?! it is called brief for a reason!!!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Despegue, I agree except that it is the Commander's decision.

[eagerbeaver1]

You don't brief your arrival and approach?

Lets say to elect to perform a visual approach, do you assume your colleague knows what you are attempting to perform? Sounds to me like you need to work on your CRM.

Do not take my comment out of context. I will re-iterate for you; if a chap I was flying with disconnected the autopilot and removed the FD's in IMC when we anticipated an approach to minimums I would ask them to reinstate the autopilot/FD's otherwise take control and there would be a discussion as to the manner of his or her conduct. Is this not obvious why?

I dont fly an ancient turbo prop/MEP anymore, thats not how we do business in Ryanair. Put your wife and kids in an aircraft where some cavalier bloke is ding what the f@ck he or she feels like just to try and be the big man, i put it to you it will change your perception.

My flying skills are just fine, I just play it safe. Like I said earlier as well, we all practice in the sim many times every 6 months and do OK.

Despeague - Re-read what you have written and see how immature it appears. Nothing you have written is correct or appropriate just a knee-jerk wild stab in the dark as a thought popped into your mind.

[calypso]

With regards to My flying skills are just fine, I just play it safe I suggest you read: http://www.merrowresidents.org/pprune/Manual%20Flying%20Skills.pdf

If handfllying feels "unsafe" to you it is perhaps a sign that things are not as they should be?

[Free wings]

There should be more hand flying in FR. People seems to be scared with that, some inexperienced FO think it's not allowed, because some Captains don't encourage them to do it, or even worse discourage them to do it.
If weather permitting and airmanship tells you to do it, you should hand fly the plane, and at the same time you still can do all the SOP's while flying manual, this is why we are paid for, to fly safely the plane but some pleople (CPT and FO) unable to do it manual. Because it's cloudy or rainy, that's not reason enough not to fly the plane ( weather close to minimums could be).
When hand fly is forbidden in FR, I will be out of here.

[wayupthere]

I'm not sure where all this has come from, I've flown out of many bases in RYR and have never had a captain tell me not to hand fly. In my current base, if it's a semi decent day out of a quiet airport we often hand fly the sids on raw data (and no I'm not based in CRL!)

Back on topic, if JD leaves will it be a good thing for all concerned or a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire?

[VJW]

Eagerbeaver perhaps it's you who should wind their neck in. Re reading my post I perhaps didn't make it that clear, but I'm not stupid enough to disconnect everything in IMC and try and show off-you put words into my mouth a bit there. I could do it, but would never put a Capt in that kind of situation where he'd have to take control. I would also never do that if I hadn't briefed it first and got the OK from the boss- whatever you think of me, I'm definitely not that kind of FO.

Unlike you however, I don't want to simply practice my hand skills in a sim every 6 months, and lucky for me 99% of the Capts I work with aren't like you and are more then happy for me to disconnect early. Some even prompt it.

Since flying a lot more manually, I've noticed my scan improve vastly and my ability in the sim has improved too. I find it strange how you would perceive this to be a bad thing. Perhaps you fall into the category I described earlier, not allowing an FO to fly manual, as you know you couldn't do it yourself :D If so- then I too am appalled.

Sorry for thread drift- don't know how that happened! :ok:

[McBruce]

If you want to hand fly the jet include it in your take off brief. "Autopilot engagement altitude after 10 checks" or " FL X", as per SOP ;) It's what I do and I've never had a commander disagree.

[Free wings]

To come back to the thread, i have now 2000h on type so i could apply and go to the Ek interview, but i'll wait after the summer and with some more hours go to the interview. If i pass i made my decision a couple months ago, so here there is one more who would leave Fr for Ek asap, but i will hqve to wait at least until 2500h Plus the notice Period.
In my current base, fr is cheating so much on the block time, that everyday i go to work, pisses me off thinking how difficult we will have it to arrive just on time.

[eagerbeaver1]

Maybe we have flown together? I don't doubt you can fly nicely, I haven't come across many nuggets in Ryanair.

McBruce is correct.

[despegue]

Well, in my Airline, nobody briefs if he/she will handfly the aircraft as that is the Standard.:rolleyes:

[lospilotos]

From www.flightdeckrecruitment.com (http://www.flightdeckrecruitment.com):

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
We have recently received a new job vacancy posting on FlightdeckRecruitment.com which may be of interest to you.

B737 Captains and First Officers - United Kingdom

FDR Job ID: 6379

Posted: June 17th 2011

Type-rated pilots only may apply.

Minimum hours (on type): 300
Minimum hours (total): 1000

Established UK Airline requires B737 Captains and First Officers for potential contracts.

The company is an industry leading Low Cost Carrier.

The salary for this contract is competitive within current market rates. Pilots are required to have JAA/EASA ATPL with the B737 type rating and hold a valid Class 1 Medical.

All applications are dealt with in the strictest of confidences.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Ryanair on another fishing expedition??

[FR1A]

Two of the Five FO's I flew with last week are on their way to EK, just waiting on references. The other Three would be interested if they had the hours and they had friends on their way there, so as long as their mates report back with good tales from their paradise the "domino effect" may happen.


For the tread drifters - we at FR brief what we are going to do. It has kept us safe for our 1000 plus flights a day.

Taking a visual approach to the opposite runway un-briefed to save a couple of minutes is plain stupid as has been proven over the years. So what, you land a few minutes early and then sit waiting for your stand to clear. Have seen plenty of them while taxiing to the hold over the years into places with perfect weather - only to watch them perform a go around - panic in their voices - very professional.

You have to use common sense in your approach to maintaining your flying skills. Practice on good days, when the safety of your passengers are not at stake. This is what airmanship is all about.

There's at lot more information about the exact numbers leaving on

REPAWEB

It's a lot safer to be on REPAWEB than a Macho pilot making a visual approach. Ryanair profits were dented by over a cooool mill trying to close the site down and lost - of course.

[McBruce]

Probably Jet2. It says "Established UK Airline"

[FR1A]

It also says Industry Leading LCC.

Hardly JET2.

[TheWrightBrother&Son]

Is anybody aware of any direct entry Fo not rated? And already rated? Is there any example confirmed in Ryr since recent past?

To keep going the interesting out of topic

than a Macho pilot making a visual approach

Is not about being Macho, but, guess what, ... , just a pilot

[d105]

Is anybody aware of any direct entry Fo not rated? And already rated? Is there any example confirmed in Ryr since recent past?

To keep going the interesting out of topic



Is not about being Macho, but, guess what, ... , just a pilot

I know it was done in the past. But we're talking 2007.

From then onward all I heard was that Ryanair wants to be self-reliant in recruitment. Meaning only contract new cadets, then upgrade said cadets to captains.

Eventually we'll just be a cadet airline.

[Narrow Runway]

Eagerbeaver: Having known you for 11 years, I'm with you on this one. I can't believe some of the people you've got in Ryanair.

VJW: Having read enough of your gut turning "know it all, I'm just waiting for my unfrozen ATPL any day now, cocky as heck attitude" - my idea of you, not yours of course, I think you're entirely incorrect.

I don't, of course, expect you to agree with me.

I suggest, VJW, that you practice your interview preparation. You have clearly outgrown Ryanair.:yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk:

[VJW]

Narrow runway; outgrown RYR cause I like to fly manually - that's a good one! That's actually one of the things I like about RYR. I never said I do anything during an approach without briefing it before hand. I simply said whenever possible, I try to fly manually, find me a TRE/LTC etc that thinks that's a bad idea. As you well know, we've disagreed on a number of occasions and this time is no different. There's a difference between someone cocky who cannot back up their statements, and one like me who is confident in their ability, having made and will continue to make mistakes, but who is also able to recognise their mistakes and someone who is keen to learn.

I'm just glad as an FO in an airline where you can upgrade within around 4 years, I don't spend my entire time flying with Captains who's a$$ is so tight they're too scared to let the FO do anything. I know for sure I wouldn't learn anything!

I spent all day recently as a safety pilot for a lad 2 days into their line training. Halfway round a DME arc to final the LTC asked the cadet to disconnect everything including flight directors and continue the approach (most likely his 4th ever approach as PF on the line). The cadet flew it pretty well all things considered. Not only can I not imagine you ever suggesting that to an FO, but I'd love to watch your face is a LTC did that to you. Is flying manually really that difficult? Perhaps if you never do it! :ok:

Re lospilotos post, is there any chance it's EJ? Don't they have a view 700's kicking around? Can't be RYR what with it stating its a UK airline, and if it's not Jet2, then who else falls under the tag 'UK leading loco?'

[FR1A]

TheWrightBrothers&Son,

At the moment we are sticking with the Cadet System - seems to be working as we don't have to iron out bad habits picked up in other airlines. This may change in the future depending on how things develop with the current mass migration to apparent greener pastures.


You could always go into journalism (the rag kind) as you've mis quoted me.

Making visual approaches are fine as long as they are briefed this is what Pilots should be able to do. But a rushed un-briefed visual to save a few minutes and to boost your ego, is clearly what we at Ryanair don't want to see.

In the last paragraph of my post I made a comparison between REPAWEB (as you may not be familiar - this is a website where Ryanair Pilots can discuss issues in private) and a Macho Pilot. Basically I was trying to say that REPAWEB is safer as some of our pilots either don't know about this free resource or are scared to log on.

English is not my first language so I am sorry if I didn't make myself clear in the first post.

[dubaigong]

@FR1A,

It is not only at Ryanair that we don't want to see a rushed un-briefed visual approach...
It is the same in all good airlines I have been for the last 30 years

[lospilotos]

Yeah I know that RYR is an Irish airline and not a UK one, but thinking as the ad was anonymous it could be RYR just trying to find out which of us are looking for new jobs. Well, I can tell them anyway: Everyone is looking for a new job....

[TheWrightBrother&Son]

Thanks for the info guys.

FR1A you`re right, I slightly quoted that wrong but it could have gone misunderstood.

And, yes, I am familiar :ok: and I agree with you that everybody should join

[WallyWumpus]

To all fellow FR crew;

Get onto REPA.

If you do not find the experience enlightening and rewarding, and if you do not believe in the potential of a united pilot body, I will buy you a beer.

Genuine offer. Nothing to loose.........

[RAT 5]

"At the moment we are sticking with the Cadet System - seems to be working as we don't have to iron out bad habits picked up in other airlines. This may change in the future depending on how things develop with the current mass migration to apparent greener pastures."

Are you saying that the RYR SOP regime is perfect and that airlines such as BA, EK etc do not have to iron out some RYR habits? If this arrogant attitude was exported around the world no-one would be moving on to anywhere. The celtic tiger had the same attitude and it is nearly extinct.

[nick14]

It's jet 2 fellas I have spoken to the agency.

Part time contract on offer so I turned it down.

[FR1A]

RAT5


I'm sure BA et al have to iron out some of our habits good and bad. But they keep taking more and more of us so I can only assume they are happy with what they get.

I'm quite a humble person so you are way off the mark with the arrogant comment.

It's far from my decision as to who we hire and from which demographic, but over the years we've been through them all. At the moment it's the turn of the cadet.



I think the Exodus Plan was in the brief case that bounced off JD's head and he's supposedly off to the desert himself.

[d105]

I'm sure BA et al have to iron out some of our habits good and bad. But they keep taking more and more of us so I can only assume they are happy with what they get.


Or it might just be that they know we are in general a spineless bunch who are already used to being treated like ****. Low maintenance flight crew who will see everything outside of Ryanair as an improvement on their T&C's.

I'm a Ryanair pilot, so I can say these things :{

[RAT 5]

FR1A: I did not infer you were arrogant, but rather those who reject experience and talent and do not consider such peolpe to be a sound future investment. Given the rate of expansion and demand for captains, perhaps the shortage of suitable experienced SFO's to upgrade is showing that policy to have been flawed. I would have thought it harder to get a DEC to change spots not an out of work SFO keen/eager & grateful to have a job. If the sop's are so wonderful and magic, I, as an SFO being shown the light by such an enlightened operator, would have cried halleluja to have had the clouds of ignorance lifted; rather than grumped/sulked and caused problems for all who come after.

[Mikehotel152]

perhaps the shortage of suitable experienced SFO's to upgrade is showing that policy to have been flawed

You are not kidding! Ryanair were very mistaken if they ever thought that you could turn every 21 year cadet who passes selection, line training and flies 3000 hours into an airline captain! Whatever the inherent value of Ryanair's SOPs and quality of recurrent training, there is plenty of poor raw material in the ranks - especially of late. Dare I suggest that the ratio of wheat to chaff will further increase as the few SFOs with the flying aptitude, maturity and personality for the captain's seat escape the company?

[Boeingflyer]

Ryanair will kill it´self if they don´t make a big change in how thay treat staff.
When staff demands are getting higher in the comming years, fokes will leave and create an exspensive hole in crew demands. Crew will always go for the best job that suits them.
For over 10 years ago Easy paid Dec 50000£ just to sign a contract due to Fc lack. Next time it´will get worse since we don´t have this pension issue last time when thay exstended it to 65.

Sit down and relax guys, there will be a better job for all who work´s for a ****ty company..
Also those guys that pay for a rating in a company cash - Save your money, because most banks will not loan money out anymore on your bare face...

Threat your collages like you like to be treated, and this profession will get better overt time..

[Callsign Kilo]

Advert in Flight for Cathay, SO program. Three tier entry scheme. Accelerated for those with commercial experience with 1500 hrs and greater. Salary 45000 HKD per month (£3500) with further annual increments, tax for HK resident between 12 - 15%. Company pension scheme, staff travel, health care, child education allowance, profit share Progress to FO expected due fleet expansion plans. FO first year salary 85000 HKD

[737 Jockey]

Guys/Girls,

Can we get back on topic please?

Currently, I'm seeing alot of F/O's out of base. I'm guessing these are short term fixes, as I have flown with guys from other bases, when at he same time there have been F/O's from our base flying elsewhere :ugh:

Now that SAS have opened recruitment, it will be interesting to see what happens in NYO, RYG and possibly even STN.

Could you imagine if Easy suddenly opened up for DE F/O's....very unlikely...but I would love to see the look on PB, DR etc. faces! :E

737 Jockey

[Craggenmore]

A brand new joiner today, taking his position on the bottom of the seniority list, would wait until 2036 until he reached a seniority position of 968 (the number of captains today) - 26 years to command.

Check the thread running a few below this for info.

[JET.MAN]

Anybody not yet on REPAweb forum needs to take a look now. Important things are starting to happen that may involve your future and your families future.

REPAweb.org

[PRT2010]

Guys/Galls,

Is this not the same thing we always see regarding Ryanair: MASS EXODUS - RYANAIR MUST DO SOMETHING??

I am in RYR and know of many many people who are LOOKING but the questions is, as always; how many are actually leaving?? I heard from one of the trainers today that JC is off to FlyDubai as CP along with a 10 Capts? Still to find anyone who can actually confirm this, but that would be some confirmation of a trend to leave. I fly with the odd F/O who says he's applied to VS, BA, EK, etc and have seen a few leave for these pastures however overall I wouldn't say that I've personally seen a MASS EXODUS. I will say this though - the ones that have left are the ones that would of done well as a Capt - the good guys.

The pay "rise" (Reduction), base change for new Capt, pay reduction, etc is not helping the mood, true. However there are still plenty of guys who are reaping it in working days off, etc on top of their normal rosters. I will confirm that I am bouncing off 100hrs at the moment, which I haven't done since the last summer of the 5/3 in STN. However if people want to make an impact then stop talking about it and go. Personally if any of my applications come through then I will be saying Ciao and moving on. In the mean time though people should stop moaning that management aren't aware - they are, but is anyone seriously expecting the RYR Board to put a memo out on Friday confirming that the company is short of pilots??

Its Ryanair! We all knew what they were like before we joined! :ugh:

[d105]

Guys/Galls,
I fly with the odd F/O who says he's applied to VS, BA, EK, etc and have seen a few leave for these pastures however overall I wouldn't say that I've personally seen a MASS EXODUS. I will say this though - the ones that have left are the ones that would of done well as a Capt - the good guys.


The difference this time round is that Ryanair will for the first time in years stop expanding. Keep in mind that most FO's who joined a couple of years ago did so while being hammered with the same mantra over and over again.

We are constantly growing. Time to command is only 2900 hours / 3.5 years. No other airlines promotes so quickly

When the last shipment arrives from Seattle time to command for SFO's will jump by at least one to two years, minimum. There's a big incentive to stay out the window straight away.

Guys/Galls,
Its Ryanair! We all knew what they were like before we joined! :ugh:

Unlikely I'm afraid.

[pi3lot_1982]

Yeah fair enough when the aircraft stop coming there won't be such a massive need for upgrades but I don't think it will get longer overnight, they are still short now and there ain't exactly an aircraft arriving every week, the last one is not due to arrive I believe until late sumer 2012, with recruitment picking up elsewhere some people will still be tempted to go elsewhere and leave a hole to fill

[20driver]

The start of this thread is certain summer chaos due to crew shortages. That was the summer 2010, and half way through summer 2011 armageddon seems to still be not quite here yet.

Ryanair continues to do its main job, create value for the shareholders. It is not a pilot employment benevolent fund. It really can't be that badly run as it continues to expand and make money.

Look at the other threads, is life so much better at Jet, Cathay, Air X China? it seems not. Would anyone on here reading the emirates threads want to go there?

For a young person starting out it still offers an attractive deal. You pay for a type rating, but where else in the industry can you make captain by mid to late twenties and good money to boot. If I was starting out I'd take the deal in a flash. When the deal makes no sense the takers will stop lining up.

If the market continues to expand they might have to increase the money, but people will still leave to a change of scenery or to fly a bigger jet.

Bottom line is there is no exodus and there is never going to be one. If attrition gets above what they expect to see there will be a little squeeze of extra cash. Until that happens don't expect any changes.

[dubaigong]

To 20driver,

Have you been working for Ryanair ?
I can tell you that I have never seen anything like Ryanair and I have seen companies all over the world.
The biggest problem that many of you seem not to understand is that the Ryanair model if not stopped , will spread all over the world and our future will be over.
We are becoming not more than train or bus drivers and are loosing all the respect.

[Mikehotel152]

Ryanair continues to do its main job, create value for the shareholders.
*my italics

I completely refute this statement. Any company's main job is to provide a service to its customers. Have a look at its Memorandum and Articles of Association if you doubt me. Any company that misconstrues its stated purpose of existence so as to make money at all costs because its main shareholders are its top management is surely inherently flawed in my book. And I'm no socialist.

It really can't be that badly run as it continues to expand and make money

The test of being a well run company is making a profit and retaining your employees because they want to work for you. And expanding is easy when all the financial risk of that expansion rests on the shoulders of the employees/contractors/airports. It's also easy to make a profit when you underpay your workforce and don't pay full state taxes. :ugh:

[RHINO]

MikeHotel 152....you are a Socialist:E:E:E

[Collia]

We are becoming not more than train or bus drivers and are loosing all the respect.

........and what is wrong with being a train or bus driver?!

[WallyWumpus]

I am a RYR pilot
I like many things about my job
I dislike many things about my job, and I think many could be fixed with little effort and little money.

I also have significant commercial experience prior to flying, in both the private and public sector.

All of the above goes to premise the next sentence:

The primary reason any decision should be taken in any company is to maximise shareholder value. That is the right, and proper, way to run any organisation. Any other views are, I am sorry to say, naive and show a lack of real-world experience.

Many of the things we crave in an airline world exist to create "shareholder value". These include; exceptional training, a just safety culture, world-class maintenance, an industry-leading roster. They do not include keeping, us, the pilots, happy, or provided with water and coffee on the flight-deck.

[AirResearcher]

Am I right in saying that Ryanair pilots may have different levels of job satisfaction because about 35% are employed directly by FR, and the rest via 3rd party agencies (with different conditions?)

And whats the current percentage of FR crews that have set up mini 3 man companies via the agencies?

Thanks

[fireflybob]

MOL wants us to be the same as train drivers.

no pension

I believe train drivers have a good pension scheme!

[jumpjet7]

And 35 hours per week or less at zero feet with the option of fresh air. We are seen as compliant middle class puffs by airline management, who must have a wheeze every time they screw us a little harder.

[stev]

left a short time ago and they short changed me 4G on my last months pay. for everyone reading this that's neutral and maybe thinking of joining these shower of nackers, think long and hard if you are a guy with low hrs looking for a first job, go for it but as soon as you join start looking for a way out, FR is only good for two types of people: those who are loking to get their foot on the ladder and those who have retired from a proper airline and are financially sound everyone else is fooling themselves. I am now in pastures new it's not perfect but never was I happier to be out of a complete sesspit that was that dump FR. Oh and on a more interesting note on my TR out of 8 in total 4 ex FR :D

that's rant over for today :ugh:

[Callsign Kilo]

The old "I've left, **** the lot of you's" speech. Good luck in your less than perfect job fella

[DrSpock]

@stev

you're not the first person i've heard of who's been screwed on the last month's pay before leaving. i think it happens often...

what are you doing about it?
-taking them to court?


overall I wouldn't say that I've personally seen a MASS EXODUS. I will say this though - the ones that have left are the ones that would of done well as a Capt - the good guys.

i second that. the quality of their pilots can only fall over the coming years, because there were so many people who had little choice but to go there during the 2007 - 2010 period when virtually no other hiring was taking place, many of whom are far too good for such a lousy company. RYR got the cream of the crop at that stage but now they're the ones who will leave first and ryanair will upgrade the lowest common denominator. Normally in a safety critical business like ours, one would hope to attract and retain quality people.

The holes in the cheese are going to line up sooner or later. Ryanair have gotten lucky on a few occasions, the occasions are starting to happen more regularly. MOL has had his warnings

i don't think there will have to be a smoking hole or a major economic shift against them, this cynical way of doing business wont survive indefinitely. the industry, the regulators, the tax authorities move slowly, but they'll eventually deal with RYR and start eating away at the margins and i just don't think the company has any other tricks up its sleeve apart from extreme cost cutting and taking the p***.

[Mikehotel152]

Any other views are, I am sorry to say, naive and show a lack of real-world experience

Not so my friend. I'm not naiive. I know the score. But the fact that some companies regularly put shareholders ahead of their stated raison d'être does not excuse their behaviour.

You don't get this kind of problem in most other big multinational companies. Apple? Microsoft? BP? The Civil Service? It's possible to make lots of money and share the benefits amongst those who serve to create them.

[WallyWumpus]

MikeH,

I was not directly accusing you of being naive, you are not;

I have worked for MS, Google, Apple, BP, Shell, and I have contracted for several parts of the UK civil service. Levels of job satisfaction are generally lower than in RYR, because although people are treated well in some respects, most of them are doing something fundamentally they do want to. At least most pilots want to fly.

There are shiny (propoganda) headline that tell the world of profit share, free tea/coffee, pinball machines and great pension schemes. These things do not make people happy.

Wally.

[night_flight99]

"There are shiny (propoganda) headline that tell the world of profit share, free tea/coffee, pinball machines and great pension schemes. These things do not make people happy."

Wally, there's a whole world of behavioural science that would disagree with you. Try googling Herzberg.

[Mikehotel152]

most of them are doing something fundamentally they do want to. At least most pilots want to fly

I think there's a missing 'not' in that sentence :) but I totally agree with you. So many of my university friends went into the City after graduation simply because it pays well and their imagination extended only as far as the entrance to the recruitment Fair. None of them had expressed an interest in that heedy world of capitalist greed when we were studying human geography or 19th Century history. And even I subsequently spent 7 years working in a job that didn't grab my enthusiasm. The upside was the good terms and conditions. I escaped that existence and now I'm doing a job I fundamentally enjoy but I get treated poorly. :ugh:

[widered]

Also agree its only a matter of time before there is some action and we can reverse this horrible company ethos of staff being objects rather than assests what will you say you did when the pilots got togetheir in Ryanair to bring about a union???
Where you too afraid to join the que of pilots willing to commit to there future and profession???
No doubt the company will eventually use the shock and awe tactics and random fire pilots to shock us into retreat but i dont think it will work anymore..

BEWARE OF THE RISEN PILOTS ,THAT HAVE HARRIED AND HELD,YE THAT HAVE BULLIED AND BRIBED.

[JET.MAN]

New REPAweb website will be up and running shortly. Still numbers of ryanair pilots joining in the debate daily.

[Callsign Kilo]

I have learnt of two more Captains who I have flown with who have started to work their respective notices in the last few weeks.

[Mikehotel152]

UK, Eire, N.Eur or S.Eur base? Can you say without giving too much information away?

[Callsign Kilo]

The British Isles

[kernowclown]

Ryanair warns about recruitment scam emails

http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/ryanair-warns-about-recruitment-scam-emails/

Ryanair’s Stephen McNamara said:
“Ryanair condemns these illegal recruitment scams which prey on eager job hunters who are keen to secure a well paid career in aviation. Ryanair has contacted the authorities in the UK and Ireland to ensure that people are not duped into paying money for non-existent visas to unscrupulous scam artists.





Tee hee.. :p

[widered]

I know 5 Pilot 3 CPTs and 2 FOs handed in their notice in the last week in faily large base.I have finished counting the people who are leaving at this stage.It gets more and more laughable to hear the lies of mangement on a daily basis.
Question for the apathetic person in ryanair ?
What did you do when someone bullied you in school ?Did you do anything ?

[PAPI-74]

I was under the impression that the genuine process was a scam. I say "good for them!"

[TolTol]

Where are these well paid aviation jobs he's talking about? What a MOL puppet.

[nuvola1980]

Does anyboby know about the politics of selection of Cadet Ryanair.

I was told that the girls are quite often put out the selection even if they are quite prepared? right or not

What about the age . I was told that they dont consider you if you are more than 30 . is that right . I'm 30 now and I have just finished all the exams, I would think to go to SAA o CAE for MCC course . and then Do I have a chance to enter in Ryanair.

[McBruce]

A flight at my base was delayed several hours recently due to no skippers on standby. One flown in via another base.

[No RYR for me]

female pilot in Ryanair
Does anyboby know about the politics of selection of Cadet Ryanair.

Hi, try to look for information in the right thread :) Interviews, jobs & sponsorship - PPRuNe Forums (http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship-104/) Just do search and you will find ALL the answers.

This area is all about people complaining about what they (don't) earn at RYR not so much how to get in but more how to get out. Specially since they can now apply at BA :D

Maybe an interesting point: try to find out how many female pilots there are in RYR vs any other airline in the UK or Ire... Me thinks MOL doesnt like ladies drive his shinny boytoys.... A little birdie once told me this was even unofficial policy.. :rolleyes:

[widered]

Qatar Airways now taking direct entry CPTs on the 777 thats going to send a few captains over there me thinks 7000 hrs total and 2000 cmd.

[jedy]

Only that you forgot to mention 2000 hours on an aircraft over 100.000 kg. MTOW.

Sorry but no one from Ryanair heading that way

[thebeast]

there's plenty of ex Varig guys in RYR who would have the heavy time.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

MCBRUCE
Least FR didnt cancel the flight !

[Unregistered737]

Ryanair is one of the few companies that doesn't have a female on the bored of directors, this will go someway to explaining their views. apparently they get pregnant and it causes all manors of problems for them!

[go around flaps15]

Good point about the ex Varig guys in Ryanair. I know plenty of them that have a lot of MD11 time. Qatar might just steal a few yet.

[zerotohero]

I have a ZERO interest in changing to a Ryanair contract, I am much better off on the old BRK contract thanks

Did enjoy reading through the latest pilot publication on sqrewdock today saying how there is no shortage of pilots and spares for standbys etc, basically just saying your still fu&&ed so don't ask for anything, they do make us feel so wanted!, so the fact I have flown guys to other bases to cover flights where they have no captain or F/O on a good few occasions recently is just normal operations is it? and the F/O who quit because he was sick of been treated like sh&& and was phoned within an hour and asked to stay in exchange for a base transfer was also just a figment of my imagination.

Head/Sand? :ugh:

[thebeast]

and only the 60 serving their notice period...that's ok then!

[WallyWumpus]

Better discussed on REPA maybe?

[ballyboley]

Would it be too much to hope this memo can be discussed by actual Ryanair pilots on Repa? Rather than have it debated across pprune with the usual helpful input from everyone from other pilots to PPL holders and trolls!

[Sky Goose]

Perhaps its 60 serving notice....440, left without giving notice...:ok:
Yes the memo cracked me up too..it always makes me wonder, if they think were dumb enough to buy the PR, should we really be flying the public around in Boeing's best seller ?

[HighLow]

So standbys are covered? well guys guess its all under control no reason for anyone now to work days off :) great

[adolf hucker]

Thank God for another lunatic propaganda memo - I was starting to think I'd seen my last one back in April with the fictional 3% pay rise. As I'm currently one of the 'less than 60' serving my notice, the publication of some more of this crap only confirms that I've made the right decision to no longer be a part of the most embarrassing airline in recent history (in fact, I'd rather be associated with Garuda than Ryanair).

You've got to laugh though. They really expect us to believe that pay increases (?) have eaten into profits. The pass rate for command upgrades is suddenly 80%? (About double the norm). More than 30 ex-Ryanair pilots have applied to return but will not be rehired? Neglecting to mention that the company has made c. 400 million while expecting its employees to take unpaid leave this winter.

Able to cover the summer roster - really? Then why all the desperate requests asking me to work a day off and why cancel flights due to lack of crew?

'Ryanair is not recruiting any Direct Entry Captains'. That's because they couldn't get any the last time they advertised for them.

Another ludicrous reference to contract agencies in a continued pretence that Brookfield pilots are 'service providers' and not employees.

I just feel sorry for Peter Bellew having to put his name to another of O'Brien's pathetic excretions. What a bunch of over-promoted, talentless clowns.

[No RYR for me]

Any body care to put the memo(s) here? :)

Just curious :cool:

[Shadowsonclouds]

Adolf hucker;

couldn't agree more. Totally embarrassed working for these, no other word for it, liars. I am too leaving one of the 400 'service providers' leaving to join the other 60 Ryanair boys at better pastures.

Everyday same conversation at work....it is reality they cannot sustain the levels leaving. No chance. So many 2000 hour FOs all lined up for EK, once they have the hours for flying there they are off. BA are taking in more and more too.

They can sit behind their lies and post as much crap as they like. Good to see the guys who fly the thing are smart enough to figure out their pathetic buisness protocol.

Join REPA those who are leaving. More numbers the better, for the good guys and girls who can't leave.

[eagerbeaver1]

I have left, I have 3 months to wait until my new job starts, thats how much I couldn't bare to stay.

[No Country Members]

Better discussed on REPA maybe?

No. Put it up here so we can all see it, and everyone knows what they are like in Ryanair management. It could save someone from applying to enter a world of pain.

[eagerbeaver1]

I would love to see the memo.

Ryanair - you did nothing but tell pork pies.

[Cloud Bunny]

The first thing you get after giving notice is all leave cancelled, you are worked to the max max and they rob your last pay check as a "fine".

Firstly, Ryanair as an employer have become a joke. Not helped by the ridiculous memos that they throw out every now and then that just show them to be nothing more than a dictatorship dying on its arse. I am one of the 60 working notice and am quite literally counting down the days until I leave such is my despair at what this place has become. Having said that, I still can't stand to see complete bull such as that above printed.
I never had any of my leave cancelled after I handed in my notice, neither has any of my colleagues, I have not worked any harder than would do normally during a summer (60 odd hours in July is not exactly busting my balls) and from the guys that I know that have left (and that is plenty despite the memo) evey single one of them has been paid whay they are owed at the end of their time with the company both basic pay and sector pay for the hours flown during their final month.
By no means am I supporter of anything to do with the place anymore but come on guys lets cut the crap eh?

[nick14]

A friend of mine handed in his notice and had some leave cancelled, it does happen...........:{

[smith]

I thought there was no leave in the summer anyway? Just unpaid leave in winter??:bored:

[Facelookbovvered]

Until such time that flights are being cancelled due shortage of crew( and i suspect FR would never admit to it but blame boeing or the Irish government) then nothing will change, Easyjet got them selfsame into this position last year, not now though.

Pilots leaving means more income for the flight training department, unless the run out of Captains!!

[adolf hucker]

Cloud bunny,

You might want to check your facts. Having resigned, I can confirm that I was advised my leave would be cancelled and that any absence due to illness would be deducted from my pay. If you want to confirm it for yourself, check the 'Rough Guide to Ryanair' - it's all in there.

So just because it didn't happen to you, don't assume that your colleagues are not being shafted (a common attitude which may go some way to explaining the current predicament of Ryanair pilots).

Enjoy your new job.

[Cloud Bunny]

Okay fair enough. Maybe because there are so many people on so many difference deals and contracts it would be helpful to specify.
It is, sadly, no surprise they would seek to "shaft" Brookfield guys as thats the whole point in forcing people onto them when they join the company so it gives them that flexibilty. It's not right and it's not fair.
My comments are purely bourne from experience and that is that I had no leave cancelled, didn't work any harder than usual and of the guys that flew out of the door first, none of them has been "shafted" in any way regarding pay. I am not, Adolf, if you read the post properly referring purely to the experience of myself but also alluding to the experiences of the friends and colleagues I know personally who have left prior to me. Please dont make assumptions based on my character, I am not and never have been one of the "I'm alright Jack" brigade. I am leaving the company for a vastly better opportunity and I would be leaving regardless of how well the company treated all of us as a Pilot group.

[flyingsaffa]

SFO's out there on the old BRK contract, any thoughts on that sunday morning surprise?

[ItsAllUpInTheAir]

Well if its the same email i got, then only the captains are getting a payrise, so obviously a ploy to get the SFO's coming up for command, to hang around and enjoy the extra income, rather than leave the company for greener pastures. I'll stand corrected if they turn round and give the FO's a payrise!!

[lospilotos]

Contract renweal will most likely mean getting on the 3-man company scam wagon, which will return some of the money to them. And by the way, my contract states a CP rate of 138,50/SBH that's a 6,50 pay rise, not 21,00....

[Kempus]

I'm on the old brk contract which is due to run out next year and have also turned down command. There really is no incentive for me to stay or work my 3 months notice as if I leave I won't be allowed back. In fact scrub the "if" and insert "when".

[flyingsaffa]

I'm much the same with the CU pressure starting to pile on but fail to see the point. I'm fairly comfortable where i'm based at the moment and the thought of somewhere out in the ar@e end of nowhere with a 10% paycut is just not worth it. := What really worries me is that with the new upgrades on old contracts, whats stopping them nailing us with these Macna sh!t contracts when ours start running out. My concern is because looking at the Cpt's on them, they've had no word about a rise or anything changing. (cheaky buggers still sent them the email though)

In my 3 years I have not seen the guys and girls so unhappy with FR

[McBruce]

I wouldn't give up my old BRK contract for the new one. The rate increase is small. The pay decrease due to paying Irish tax and inefficient accountancy will make this a pay cut for me. I'm happy on my old one. So Mr DD, you know where to shove your new contract, force me on it and you force me to leave. Only way I will accept it is If I can continue to do my own accounts and not forced to choose between those Troy McClures.

This whole new agency, smells nasty to me. Seems another layer of diversity is being implemented.

[irishpilot1990]

Ryanair can offer me a contract with the sun, the sea and the stars but without a union or some form of legal protection they will take it back off us!:ugh:

[White Knight]

For all of you guys joining us in EK - welcome:ok::ok::ok:

If you've not applied yet; well come on in - the water's warm:D:D

[irishpilot1990]

Already dropped from -3% on the fuel league to +4% for the last 11 weeks.

This five days will be a personal best for sure.


Gear down, 3 greens :D

[peba]

Tanker all the way,trip to the canaries? well round trip it,then take more on below!!
Take care on your travels,and enjoy your next job.

Just remember,the grass is not always greener on the other side,oh hold on,there is no grass in dubai!! there goes declan ryans theory!! Enjoy being appreciated for what we do,

[Craggenmore]

At my last airline, orange management came up with this great cost saving initiative to remove crew tea and coffee.

So the next months fuel bill mysteriously went up by approximately £400,000.

2 weeks later an email from the boss saying 'got the message'.

You have more power than you think.

[RAT 5]

Why doesn't MOL or ez put a 0.50c crew food charge into every ticket. Crews happy and they even make a profit. Pax are used to being suckered evry new day. Trouble is if LF is below 30% crew goes hungry. Back to the drawing board.

[irishpilot1990]

At my last airline, orange management came up with this great cost saving initiative to remove crew tea and coffee.

So the next months fuel bill mysteriously went up by approximately £400,000.

2 weeks later an email from the boss saying 'got the message'.

You have more power than you think.

:D Least your boss at the courage to say that!

[ssschmokin1]

i recently left to go to MUCH greener, or should I say, red, white and bluer pastures.

No, they didn't diddle me out of much money, got a minor shafting for a few quid. They didn't cancel my leave, simply because they were refusing to grant what was owed anyway. Then they nearly worked me to death for the last month and a half, leading me to get really quite ill.

I'm so glad I've seen the back of those :mad:

[adolf hucker]

Cloud Bunny

Yep, think I just about managed to read your post 'properly', thanks. I was just pointing out that you were incorrect in your defence of Ryanair when you criticised as 'bull' the post of someone referring to leave cancellation and final pay 'adjustments'. I am on a Ryanair contract, have resigned and can confirm that the original poster was correct.

[Cloud Bunny]

I am on a Ryanair contract, have resigned and can confirm that the original poster was correct.

I really cant be arsed with an arguement but just respond to the quote above.
So am I, so have I and I can confirm that none of what was in the original post has occured to me or my friends in my base.
We know full well that Ryanair is like 40-odd different companies depending on where you are based and what contract you are on hence the divide and conquer that this place is run on and is what prevents the "unity" that I am quite sure most of us crave (or those that are left at least). So perhaps we can just agree to disagree and in true FR fashion, some of us have had it good and easy and not been dicked around and others have. As far as I'm concerned let that be an end to it and wish the guys and girls that remain that they can eventually make the place the job it should and so easily could be.

[dubaigong]

MOL has no reason to be proud of anything except the fact that he was smart enough to use at his best the laws in Ireland and the selfishness of the pilots...
When pilots will stop to be selfish and will start to think as a united group with the same goal THEN and only then things will be better.

[adolf hucker]

I have to agree with the above in that the problem is that we all have a different experience of Ryanair and, consequently, a different attitude to our treatment. Added to that, we have different expectations - a guy who has come from bankrupt airline will find less to criticise than someone else, for example.

The problem is that few of us are prepared to empathise with those of our colleagues in difficulty and even fewer are prepared to take positive action about it. If you're in a base where the sun shines and you don't get too much nonsense from the BC then why would you worry about a guy getting sacked for handing out a leaflet or other pilots being arbitrarily uprooted when a base closes. Not your problem, really. Only problem is, eventually it will be you in difficulty and then who is going to support you?

In the end, it's highly unlikely that Ryanair's opportunistic and cynical business philosophy will ever change or that a sufficient number of pilots will ever be prepared to act for a common purpose. When you get that into your head, then you either put up with the crap or leave - and my crap bucket is full.

All the best to those who choose to stay.

[RAT 5]

That is one of the facts; BRK pilots are in the majority and are, in theory, self-employed. Being 'sacked' does not seem an option as you are not employed. However, "services no longer required" seems to have no come-back. RYR can scatter these self-employed pilots far and wide back onto the open market, and seem to have immunity from any claims. Indeed it might be difficult for BRK pilots to claim anything against RYR, even age/sex/racial discrimination. They just "do not require your services anymore".

[despegue]

REPA and IALPA:

I do not work for FR, but know very well the situation with so called "self employed" pilots.

There are NO self employed pilots in FR.

Pilots are not self-employed when working for an airline. FACT.
FR is guilty of FALSE SELF_EMPLOYMENT which is a very severe fraud in EU law.

When you are rostered by the airline, get a badge from the airline, have to wear a uniform of the airline (wether paying yourself or not for it!!!!) and get free days/holidays by the airline you are an EMPLOYEE. NOT "SELF-EMPLOYED." If these things are supplied by Brookfield, you are a Brookfield employee.

FR is very clearly illegaly taking advantage of their pilot employees. So REPA and IALPA, What ARE you going to do against this? When will you sue? This is THE MAIN reason for bad treatment by management. Sue, win and FR WILL be obliged to COMPLETELY change their attitude.

To the fired pilots: bite back with a vengeance: threat to sue for being falsely self-employed, FR have no chance. they know it and WILL take any deal.

[Jaydee27]

Just wondering...if the Brookfield guys are nominally self employed, is there any requirement to give notice when they want to leave? And if so , how is it justified?

[nick14]

Brk contract requires 3 months notice, and it is not justified it's just in the contract.

Although I think some guys are leaving without giving notice.

[leeds 65]

Damn right, there is a very penal notice period.

3 months - and if you cant provide and work the full 3 months notice you are fined 5000 euro.

Most guys end up paying,for example - you pass an interview and that company wants you to start 2 months later.Boom - easy money for Brookfield.

Any sane individual would not allow a 5000 euro fine deter them from a long term career elsewhere.Brookfield know this and take advantage.

[long final]

I am sure this has been answered before, but how do Ryanair work the self employed angle? Generally, if you register yourself self employed then the responsibility will lie with you to satisfy the legal requirements for that condition.

If Ryanair allow you to work for other people during the year, and you do that, amongst other requirements that should be ok. Do Ryanair allow you to work in your month off for example, free of their control? Do they allow you to work outside of your rostered period?

[I'm Off!]

Let's be fair, there are no 'human rights atrocities' in FR. Do not dare compare voluntarily working for a company like Ryanair, with all of their attitude, with genocide and ethnic cleansing. Get some perspective.

[jackbauer]

18mins from FL410 to 245ft. WTF!
Crew pairing queried after 737 abort (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/07/12/359163/crew-pairing-queried-after-737-abort.html)

[VJW]

Jack wtf are you talking about. The rate of decent is hardly the problem here.

41000 to 0 is 2300 feet per minute. You do an idle decent using economy speeds and you'll achieve this with NO problem......:ugh:

The report (and JBauer) for some reason suggests that descending with power is a normal efficient way to descend, when clearly every airline in the world would love it to be idle all the way from top of decent until increasing slighting once in full landing configuration. Its called energy management and continuous decent approaches.....:D

Lets get back to topic.

[go around flaps15]

Well said.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

41000 to 0 is 2300 feet per minute. You do an idle decent using economy speeds and you'll achieve this with NO problem......:ugh:

Do you think it's ok to be doing 2300fpm at 250' and 150kts? That's about 9 degrees.

:D

[VJW]

lol Yes that's clearly what I said!

[leeds 65]

Iv obviously upset you so iv removed my highly accurate post

Back on topic please

[jackbauer]

VJW even if you think it's ok to descend in this way, the investigation felt it was significant enough to question it. Typical FR, don't matter how you do it just get it on the ground! Doing 2300fpm below 1000 is definitely unstable yet these clowns continued. You clearly think it's ok to land at 300kts, you're hired!

[Omar_Baba]

Jack are you saying that all FR flight crew are wreckless and don't care about safety.... Just getting the aircraft on the ground??? Plus as it was at fl410 it would be fair to say it was light that coupled with the route into poland you normally (or when I use to fly there) get continuous descent, speed break out flight level change 320knts you'll get more than 3000ft/min.... and the speedbrake hasnt been touched! Plus it say landing configuration by 1050ft (+3nm from what they thought was a threshold) sp gear was probably down by 4nm?? (as per SOP).
And lastly I've never seen 300knts achieved in landing configuration and it doesn't say anywhere that it was 2300fpm below 1000ft

[skyflyer737]

Jackbauer - what on earth are you talking about? This is absolutely nothing to do with a Ryanair employee / contractor exodus - but FL410 to 250ft is not what was being questioned. As has been made clear to you by other more informed posters, that is not unsafe. Nowhere does it say that they had a high rate of descent in the latter stages of the approach. Where they screwed up was continuing the approach without being visual with the runway which was a serious and dangerous decision.

But the rate of descent from FL410 and unstable approach you continue to go on about is nothing to do with the investigation.

Please get back on topic and if you've got an issue with the way Ryanair aircraft are flown, raise a new thread. With 1400+ flights per day, the odd cock up does happen. No excuses for their poor decision making though.

[root]

Do you think it's ok to be doing 2300fpm at 250' and 150kts? That's about 9 degrees.

:D

I believe he meant 2300 fpm as an average rate of descent from the cruise level.

[VJW]

JB - you're kidding right? I'm not even sure you're worthy of a reply, but I'll fire one at you anyway.

My comment meant, that over the course of a decent from FL410 to 0 you could easily achieve an average of 2300' per min ROD, even flying economy speeds.

You clearly don't fly. It is not OK to fly idle decent approaches (until adding power once in full landing config as I previously said).... ITS IDEAL!!!

Why does an aircraft work out a top of decent automatically for you? Why is this point where it is? I'll let you think about it.

I say again- back to topic....please!

[jackbauer]

VJW, it's always better to have people think you're stupid than to open your mouth and prove them right. Thank you for proving me right!

[Mikehotel152]

Jack,

The Polish Report said, amongst a few impressive nuggets of nonsense:-

3.2. Causes of the serious air incident:
1. Probably inadequate monitoring of FMS indications.
2. Probably inadequate CRM by the flight crew in the cockpit.
3. Continuation by the crew of the approach procedure without visual contact with the
runway evironment.

My italics. Note there is no mention of the descent.

The decent rate prior to FL100 is irrelevant because we don't know whether ATC gave continuous descent, but in the event it averaged at 2300 fpm. That's normal. According to the Report, below FL100 speed was below 250 kts and ROD 1400 fpm until flap extension at the normal altitude and speed.

The cause of this serious incident was a visual approach performed into the rising sun without proper visual reference and an FO who probably did not question what the CPT was doing due to a steep cockpit experience gradient. Articles in Flightglobal and in other places have focused on the cockpit gradient, not the ROD...

Whilst there are plenty of reasons to get the hell out of Ryanair, you can't blame the company culture for this event. Ryanair has developed comprehensive SOPs to reduce the chances of this type of brainfart from happening and I dare say this incident is no more or less likely to occur at any other airline.

[VJW]

JB- shame everyone agrees with me in that by opening your mouth all you did was prove everyone else (aside from you) right.

[Boeingflyer]

Whilst there are plenty of reasons to get the hell out of Ryanair, you can't blame the company culture for this event. Ryanair has developed comprehensive SOPs to reduce the chances of this type of brainfart from happening and I dare say this incident is no more or less likely to occur at any other airline.

Many things Can happen in a cockpitt. I Can understand this could happen in a Ryan aircraft with these craizzy long brief Thay haft to do, occopying there situation awerreness from flying.
A long brief does not make you to be a skilled pilot. I have seen brief's in Ryan up to 10-15 min long...

[flyingonion]

Many things Can happen in a cockpitt. I Can understand this could happen in a Ryan aircraft with these craizzy long brief Thay haft to do, occopying there situation awerreness from flying.
A long brief does not make you to be a skilled pilot. I have seen brief's in Ryan up to 10-15 min long... Level 3 English at best so I'm guessing you don't fly commercially.

[stev]

Boeing, while I agree wit you that crazy long briefs are a cmplete waste of time, in FR the DALTA was just a structure for you to brief. It was up to you to brief, revelant points of the approach you were flying. In saying that you could manuplate the format as to the des you were flying to, some needed long briefings as to the type af arrival you might be conducting to a certain busy airport where as others needeed a little less consideration due to the frequency of their arr/dep and there capabilities. Long briefs should be a thing of the past in my opinion.
But a threat should be started (and maybe has) on the amount of people in our profession that like to hear the sound of their own voice.

[fastidious bob]

And what does all this have to do with the exodus from Ryanair.:ugh:

Back to the thread please!

[Boeingflyer]

Stev,
You are absolutly right, the DALTA was a god thing to have in mind in the brief, but some Line instr and FO's thought long brief's was safety included non importend things.
I remember ón one of my Line training, i had to do 3 times full brief since the airport changed the rwy 3 times... Had a Young punk instr less than 30 years to deal with compared to my 10000 hours in a boeing. Sorry to say i had enough after one year with Ryan. Many instr, desk pilots, base capt and so on act like stupid idiot like in the GA. Ryan is one big GA in my oppinion..
sorry to hitt the god guys...

Grow up fellow pilots and stick together, dont be selfish, fight Ryan and dont be scared to loss your job - there is no one else out there WHO wants to work for them at all ...

[McNulty]

DALTA combined with common sense = thorough. relevant brief.

However if it is not combined with common sense it can be long, irrelevant, repetitive and laborious. "I've flown this star 100 times in the last 6 months, and ive landed on this runway 200 times.....i don't need to check the ******* landing distance chart etc. etc."

[brother rice]

Ah Boeing Flyer, another OCC DEC ace who has left, such a shame...:eek:

[MrHorgy]

"Threat and Errors then.. Ahh.. Umm.. It's a home base, so complacency?"

...I put down my reading to listen to that? Don't waste my time. If the runway is on fire, then that's pretty important, else briefings go on now for so long with some people that I unintentionally find myself switching off!

Horgy

[FR1A]

What's all this got to do with people leaving...........

If you want to discuss the pro's and con's of identifying Threats etc why not do it over on REPAWEB.org.

[DiscoChocolate]

Anyone else struggling to get on to Repaweb.org today, been trying for the best part of 2 hours but no joy..Or maybe it my stupid internet connection....

[Cruise Zombie]

Few can do 900 hours year on year without getting burnt out, in any airline.

My money is on most in RYR will be screaming for part time (if they can afford it ) within five years, so there might be lots of vacancies !!

This ' low cost ' experiment will fail in 10 years with most current pilots leaving the industry or sitting in the funny farm playing with their lips as their medical gets shredded. Just look at how new captains age after a couple of years of close calls :uhoh:

[adolf hucker]

Think Cruise Zombie has a fair point. After a few years of relentless 800 - 900 hours/year multi-sector ops, the pleasure of flying is hard to recall. Newer guys tend to have a more positive attitude to a busy roster (mainly because they get paid per hour) but the novelty soon wears off.

When you talk to guys doing these types of roster, there is no doubt that majority are coping with their situation rather than enjoying the experience. So thanks a lot, FR et al for managing to suck the the joy out of flying with the pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap (if you manage not to get ripped off) aviation model.

Hurrah for many more years flying round in circles while not having the time to take a dump from 4 am to 5 pm. In fact, it's so much fun that I can barely wait to do it all the next day, and the next, and the next and the next.

If it's so bad, I hear you ask, why isn't everyone leaving? Well, many are (despite desparate propaganda to the contrary) and those that aren't are either still getting something (hours,command etc) or are resigned to their lot in order to live at home.

If I were not leaving Europe's leading low-class airline, the only way I could contemplate staying would be on part-time.

[Facelookbovvered]

FR are of course a major airline, but few other outfits of this size could get away with the way they treat their staff, never mind their customers, sims on days off, pay for your uniform, car parking, no pension, no union, salary deduction for your sim check, pay for your own hotel( I'm treating all who fly for FR as employees including contractor, because that is what they are in reality)

Boeing provide aircraft so cheap, that they are resold to generate a book profit, a five year life deal on APU's a deal on the brake life irrespective of whether you use reverse thrust or not, so can the brakes to save the fuel even when it 40c in Sevile.

They are very very shrewd at screwing their crews and customers, but without the cheap aircraft deal, airport subsidies,and all manner of iffy employment and tax practices they would have to charge at least 10 Euro's a seat more, how many of the 70million would still choose to fly with them then

Its a shame really because they have fantastic crews both up front and in the back, great equipment, great route network and on time performance and very safe of course, but most pax are happier when they got off, sadly the same choices isn't available to the employee's yes 10 years with them will leave you playing with your lips

I can't see things changing anytime soon

[16024]

I can see things changing very soon.
Remember when Piper said "We've shown we can give airplanes away, now let's see if we can sell some".
Well FR are in the same position with seats just now.
You could say "Everyone else has kept us in business (with cheap aircraft, crew, fuel, Euro subsidies here, harsh contract negotiations there), now let's see if we can stay profitable on our own merits".
"Employees" suddenly have a choice. And if seat prices go up by 20 euros, as they will have to, so will customers.
There is no brand loyalty here, and airport operators, regulators, millions of punters, and thousands of staff have a knife ready.
FR is a modern phenomenon, like McDonalds, if they can re-invent themselves quickly enough they might ride it out. It's up to you whether to hope they manage it.

[Piloto2011]

They are very very shrewd at screwing their crews and customers,

Customers? Really? Crews definite yes. Customers not so much. You get what you pay for. They get me where I want to go. Cheap. Ain't need a drink, ain't need a soggy sandwich. Just an on-time, safe ride. And I believe that's what they're offering.

Would I want to work for them? Under their current Ts and Cs? Not really. With a proper contract and decent Ts and Cs. You bet.

[wayupthere]

Just an on-time, safe ride.

Do you really think ryr flights are either of these?
The crews do a good job but their luck will run out.

[skyflyer737]

Wayupthere

The safe operation of 1500 flights per day by the crews of Ryanair is not luck

[zerotohero]

HERE HERE

Wayupthere that comment is very out of order!!!

[WallyWumpus]

Wayupthere,

Foolish, boarding idiotic, ramblings.

(That's me attacking the post, not the poster, for the avoidance of doubt).

Wally.

[HighLow]

MOL he has a plan alright
He is grounding planes (80+) this winter


sorry guys typo, should read 80
fat fingers on smartphone !

latest talk going around a continental base and
that seems in line with numbers we heard earlier in the year

[G-FATTY]

HighLow,

Whats your source for 90+ aircraft being grounded this winter?

Edit: Has anything else been said since May this year?

[Cruise Zombie]

Sadly, Wayupthere may be closer to the truth than many may think.

I have no idea about the number or nature of our ( RYR ) incidents as I can't get hold of the data. And RYR somehow manage to hush things up. How many of you heard about the double engine failure at CIA, or the aircraft going off the runway at LIG for example ?

All I know is this ;

The main reasons that Ryanair don't have more accidents or incidents is, I believe, that the aircraft are new and rarely breakdown in a major way and they have autopliots fitted.

Having flown six sector days in a Fokker Friendship with no autopilot I know how your scan falls apart as you get more and more tired.

On many, many occasions whilst flying our 738s the autopilot has saved the day. I've had or known others who have had the following because they were tired ( called pilot error by management ) and/or flying into 'iffy airfields ' with few facilities;

Several near misses, good handful of runway vacations not using a taxiway, level busts due to mis-setting the MCP/mis-hearing ATC, forgetting to change freq because both of you are nodding off and not listening ( I know we've had quite a few expensive intercepts ), many loadsheet mistakes, many items missed on a hurried walkround ( big hole in rear fuseluge is the latest thing to be missed as per RYR memo a few days ago ), hard landings requiring company memos due to the ' large number of ', threats to fine pilots for wandering of the SIDs at MAD, concern by the training department over how sleepy crews ' handled ' CAT events, cabin crew reporting experiencing very rough turbulence possibly as sleepy crews can't think ahead i.r.o. wx, etc.,etc.,etc..

We've had memos about all these things and more.

We all know how we feel at the end of a sim check during an unsociable hour, like we just managed to stumble through it, and thank God the TRE didn't add anything else in requiring more than half a dozen steps in a straight forward checklist.

[Mikehotel152]

Playing devil's advocate on this one:

Double engine failure at CIA and aircraft going off the runways? It was widely reported in the press. I don't think the media miss a trick with FR.

Near misses? Hard landing memos? I haven't seen the reports or memos. People missing holes in the fusilage? I saw the pics - sheer incompetence by the flightcrew.

If flightcrew were based near their homes we would not have any fatigue issues because the roster patterns are good. Try the rosters at most other airlines! They have unstable rosters! We do more hours but sitting in the cockpit is not the draining part. I've done 500 hours since April 1st and if I'm tired it's because of commuting, not flying.

If FR have an accident in the near future - God forbid - it'll be something caused by inexperience on the flightdeck, rushing during a turnaround or inappropriate reliance on SOPs over airmanship.

Haven't we got more pressing issues than fatigue to be mad about in FR? Or put it another way: Would fatigue be an issue if pilots were otherwise happy with their jobs?

[Piloto2011]

While I totally disagree with how RYR management are treating their workforce, particularly lately, I still do believe it could be a great company to work for, if only a few changes are implemented.

The safety issues raised by some here might be true to some extend but please let me ask you, do you really believe this is only happening to and in RYR?

Let's just look at AF, European major with their crews most likely enjoying one of the best Ts and Cs in the industry. Yet, they happen to fly into trees (Mulheim-Habsheim), overshoot a RWY (Toronto), even a hull loss of one of the most spectacular aircraft ever build (Paris). And according to Wikipedia a whole lot more. I am absolutely certain this does happen every day in every airline. In some more, in some less.

I might be wrong but the equation is simple: big fleet with frequent aircraft movement = greater risk of incidents/accidents.

I stand to be corrected.

[Callsign Kilo]

I for one agree with a few of the items posted on this thread. It does however give me the impression, and correct me if I'm wrong, that certain individuals now believe that management policy within FR is now lining the airline up for a major incident or even a hull loss. There seems to be an assumption that it is this which would cause management to relax the reigns on the way that we operate. Whilst I agree, safety issues are a life case in every airline; and indeed as Piloto2011 suggests, some more than others - ie AF,AA,THY,Korean etc. I do unfortunately think that a major incident within FR could potentially ruin the airline. The media treats FR like no other. Much in the same way as the News of the World pushed the boat out on a bit of scandal involving a celebrity or some Premiership footballer - to the point that the objective was to ruin that person. FR would be no different. it is the airline that everyone loves to hate. I wonder why?

[Cruise Zombie]

Sorry MIKEHOTEL152 but did you see the several airprox reports I filed, and the couple a colleague filed two weeks ago, oh and the three that another of our captains put in ? No ? Well they are all in a file next to each RYR wall in each base, aren't they ? Cleaners must have moved them I guess.

OK MH152, I apologize for the sarcasm but we really are all in this together and I am only interested in safety.

Some years ago we took a young air traffic controller on the jumpseat of our F27 flying Humberside to STN. He had never been on a jumpseat before. He was astonished that he couldn't see any of the traffic that his chums in the tower were reporting to us, even through it was a crystal clear day and we heading away from the sun. We were astonished that he was astonished. He said that it was virtually impossible to see light aircraft below the horizon and we were surprised that he didn't know this.

The following RYR destinations/bases have no radar and/or require transit through uncontrolled airspace. How good is our lookout really ? Next time you operate into one of these airfields, watch your colleague carefully. Is he really looking out or just staring at the instruments. Remember a proper lookout requires moving the head not just looking forward.

ACE,AHO, AJA,ALC,AOC,BES,BIA, BLK,BOH,BRE,BVA,CCF,CFU,CHQ,CQM,CRL,CRM,CSO,CTA,DNR,DOL,EBU, EGC,EXT,FDH,FEZ,FMM,FSC,FUE,GRO,GRX,GRZ,HER,HUY,IBZ,ILD,INV, KGS,KLU,LCA,LCJ,LDE,LDY,LGG,LIG,LIL,LNZ, LPA,LRH,MBX,MJV,NDR,NQY,NRN,OUD,PDV,PFO,PGF,PIS,PUF,RAK,RDZ, REU,RHO,RJK,RYG,SUF,SVQ,SXB,SZG,TFN,TFS,TNG,TUF,VIE,VIT,VLC, VLL,VOL,XCR,ZQW

Remember guys all we need is one collision and the media vultures will be all over us. MOL and his cronies will still come out of it smelling of roses because their backs are covered ( pilot's fault ) and they are already filthy rich.

The memo about hard landings was from RC dated 22 December 2006.

If any pilot isn't shattered after a week of earlies, may I have some of your DNA. I think I got issued with a duff batch.

[wind check]

I still do believe it could be a great company to work for, if only a few changes are implemented.

The World also could be a paradise if only a few changes are implemented.

Don't dream, Ryanair will never ever change because its business model is based on all that ****.

And do not blame MOL, as he is actually a great asset for Ryanair. This man is a real genius. When he is replace, he'll be replaced by someone like him (an accountant that hates pilots) but the only question is: Will this new guy be as clever as MOL? No, he won't :=

[Dan 98]

Out of interest to those in the know is it likely that Ryan like Easyjet who currently have an experience gap building and are having to recruit TR SFO's.

With SFO / Capt's leaving Ryan for other opportunities and from reading some of the posts on here who can blame them!!!:ok:

It sounds like changes are afoot etc.....just interesting to see if Ryan will end up in a similar postion and be forced to do something about it and have to improve T&C's and have to recruit experienced FO's?


cheers

[nick14]

If any airlines go bust and dump a few type rated guys on the Market it will solve their problems and ruin our drive for better ts and cs.

Even if they are openly saying they won't take SFO I'm sure they will to fill the gaps.

[TheWrightBrother&Son]

We do more hours but sitting in the cockpit is not the draining part. I've done 500 hours since April 1st and if I'm tired it's because of commuting, not flying.

Mikehotel152, for sure commuting makes things even tougher, with 5/3 you dont have a life anymore basically, but I feel REALLY TIRED after a set of 5 earlies: 35+ hours of flight time, nobody knows how many of duty.

TIREDNESS is an issue! Even with no commuting! And tiredness is a cause of incident, not only the ones you stated.


Haven't we got more pressing issues than fatigue to be mad about in FR?

I agree, but duty time has to be sorted as well. The bloody - 45 mins report time could be a starting point

[wind check]

45 min to print off and check the flightplan and weather report is more than enough, don´t you think? No much time for coffee and some nice and easy chat with the air hostesses in the crew room though.:=

[wind check]

Dear Vexed,

I am not in Ryanair, because I am too experienced to join as a 200hours cadet :yuk:

plus, I don´t want to be treated like s:mad: in this lowlowlowlow cost airline.

[Cruise Zombie]

Trouble with fatigue is that hardly any of us report it, mainly because companies like RYR would probably fire the first to use the ' F ' word in any report. But then, of course, regulators and politicians will rightly claim that no fatigue problem is reported to exist.

It stinks, working in RYR is like living in North Korea. I'm surprised we don't have pictures of MOL everywhere in front of which we have to grovel and worship ' His Holiness the Saviour of all aeros*xuals ' !

We MUST find a way to report all fatigue.

The unions must set up reporting systems that we can trust.

Even CHIRP seems powerless to upset the course of the MOL supertanker ! Probably because they have few fatigue reports either.

[fireflybob]

The point that's often missed about the 45 minute report time is that it enables certain duty days (usually with 4 sectors or more) which would be off limits if the report time is an hour, or even more, before STD.

[TheWrightBrother&Son]

Tiredness is arguably a bigger issue than chronic fatigueI am with you BUT tiredness, in our job, is a problem too. In my opinion the FTL already permits way too long working days. I am not even speaking of the EASA proposal because it should be illegal only to be considering an increase in the amount already allowed.

If we are already exhaust while on day one on earlies - and this is the case for me on a long 4 sector duty - just because it is not possible for everybody to fall asleep at 8 pm after you were used to do so at 1am for the previous 9 days - then this is an issue by itself. And, correct me if I am wrong (I have to admit I was not listening really carefully at the propaganda video during last RST), but this is tiredness.

When you say:

Generally it works. I go to work hoping the other guy has had a decent night's sleep on my day one of earlies.I can tell you that I hope for that too but if you look at the overall situation from the outside, then I don`t think to be in error stating that it shouldn't work like that. It is about safety afterall.

We are two pilots, right, but in commercial aviation everything works on redundancy. Two engines because if one fail, still we can menage somehow to take the ship back on safe ground. So, on the same principle, I would say there is a need for two pilot not because the normality is like you were saying:

We have two people on the flight deck (one of whom MOL would like to see replaced by cabin crew :ugh: ), both are tired, trying to catch each other's mistakesbut because there is always the chance that one gets incapacitated. This is different.

So, in my opinion, fatigue is a big problem, but here, in the current aviation FTL, we are already pushed way too much on every single day, and even further in the rolling 28 days. Especially in LoCo world, and even further in Ryanair, where, as fireflybob was rightly stating:

The point that's often missed about the 45 minute report time is that it enables certain duty days (usually with 4 sectors or more) which would be off limits if the report time is an hour, or even more, before STD. At windcheck: sorry my friend, I like to do that too, but you are entirely missing the point here

[eagerbeaver1]

The amount of work we have to do was one of the main reasons I resigned. I was destroying myself, I couldn't do it anymore.

I submitted a few SAIR's over the years about fatigue and never heard a thing back.

I haven't flown an aircraft for 6 weeks (whilst waiting for my UK ATPL to be re-issued) and it feels great. Ryanair crushed any enjoyment I had flying.

I start somewhere nice soon, I will perhaps let you chaps know what the difference is.

£5000 - £6000 a month was just not enough to keep me in the left hand seat. I look back now and can't believe what we had to do on a daily basis.

For all you still there attempting to escape, good luck. You must do it sooner rather than later.

[TheWrightBrother&Son]

No problem Vexed, I have understood perfectly your point, and I agree with you. It was just to make my view a bit clearer.

Ryanair crushed any enjoyment I had flying.

Mine too

Join REPA lads!

[MPH]

Also the fact that when sent out of base, it´s not taken in to account as positioning/duty time (on your OFF day). So, in may cases when you are asigned a duty in a different base it takes you physicaly one day to get there or you might even have to travel on the same day that you have to work. And equaly the same applies to get back to your home base. Thus your 5/4 roster becomes a 6/3 or even a 7/2. This is not reflected on your roster and never will be as you would certainly would be out of duty time!!! Ryanair states and specifies in one manual (A) what a base is what positioning is and what is duty time this, is certainly not taken into account!!

[Mikehotel152]

As you all know, I did preface my comments with the phrase 'playing the Devil's Advocate'. Perhaps this ruffled a few feathers: for which I apologise.

Sadly it has become quite clear that EASA, the IAA and FR are keen to downplay fatigue in the industry. Paradoxically, this is actually proven by the emphasis on fatigue in the last RST. They know it's a problem. They are pretending it's our problem. The only part of that video that wasn't bovine excrement was the announcement that our tiredness is regarded as wholly our fault by the powers that be.

[wind check]

Join REPA lads!

What will :mad: repa do? Go on strike and you'll immediately loose your job :D
Try to put lawyers behind MOL's ass and you'll be sent to Kaunas with no chance to become a captain.


The best solution is to send a CV to British Airways...and pass the interviews.

[Cruise Zombie]

I think the ' low-cost ' house of cards will come crashing down sooner than most of us think.

Long term fatigue and stress eats away at your brain relatively unnoticed until it goes all wobbly. I know of a few folks in other professions as well as our own who have fallen off the perch due to a nervous breakdown never to recover, and their history is just like the stuff that is effecting RYR pilots at the moment :

Fatigue

No control over your life

screwed up family life

trying to do the impossible ( 25 minute turnarounds, hanging on to that turd for 12 hours, 5 days in a gut splitting row )

constant testing and checking

fear of the sack

big consequences for missing little things

idiotic procedures introduced by egotistic management orks who love to humiliate pilots

etc., etc..


If the number of personal injury claims due to psychological disorders starts mounting up the business model will collapse and we'll all be off to the sand pit begging for the ' privilege ' of being strapped into a seat for hours of intense boredom.

[tonker]

Why not just turn up 45 minutes before. If it doesn't work then, hey! Of course you all have to do it to make it work, but beats striking or leaving your family for familiar looking grass!

[737 Jockey]

Man it's all getting very negative on here!

Wind check...you're entitled to your opinion...but this is the sort of attitude that has allowed management to run roughshod over the pilots for too long now.

This post has attracted over 1,000 replies and over 278,000 views! If a fraction of those numbers stood up and joined IALPA then we might have a chance to improve things.

Not everyone can go to BA or other legacy carriers, not everyone wants to go the sandpit or do long haul etc. Personally, I think that with a few fairly straight forward changes (leave, basing policy etc.), Ryanair could be one of the best jobs around.....shoot me down if you will, I guess it all depends what you want out of the job. Of course, the biggest attitude of all to change is that of the management, and that will only happen if they are forced to negotiate with a union and cohesive Pilot group. I urge all my colleagues to unite against a few greedy, selfish and egotistical individuals, (mascarading as professional managers/executives) and please consider joining REPA and IALPA and work towards a better future.

Happy & safe flying! :ok:


PS - When I heard on the news that the police had raided a pikey settlement and released a group of mixed nationalities forced into slavery, I thought it was Dublin HQ....turns out to be travellers in Leighton buzzard! :uhoh:

[eagerbeaver1]

Personally, I think that with a few fairly straight forward changes (leave, basing policy etc.), Ryanair could be one of the best jobs around

No........

[despegue]

If in the CRL base the pilots decide on a strike, approved by an official trade union (like REPA should be/become), FR can not fire anyone. FR must abide Belgian law. It is very simple really. One starts his/hers work in Belgium (crewroom) and not on a FR EI-registered aircraft so irish law is void.

A total block is the only solution to get better conditions in FR I'm afraid. It is very unfortunate for the passengers, but management only hears when the wallet is hurting.

[nick14]

I have read all the posts with interest here and want to raise a few points:

I don't think fatigue is a big issue, after all I'm sure some of you have seen a charter roster or a mixed fleet roster? Ryr is no different from any other airline in the fact that we are shift workers, it's human nature to be dog tired and it is up to us to manage that as best we can. I agree that tiredness is something to be addresses but it needs to be addressed for all companies. Ask some of the baby guys how hard they work with a random roster, do they complain?

There are far more pressing issues unique to ryr that should be given more attention. The questionable contracts, illegal self employment, the costly Rostering department wasting thousands of euros a day with needless out of base work, the non-transparent basing policy, the lack of compassion by employers to employees.

Anyone worked out their gross pay recently? I'm 15000 pounds worse off than most other 737 fo's!!

Food for thought.

Edited for spag

[wind check]

Vexed, no problem, feel free to tell me bull**** I am not offended with your post in any case ahahah


Despegue, People with a brookfield contract may be fired with no reason from one day to another. People with an Irish Ryanair contract will be sent to another base and won't see their command upgrade coming or/and will get lots of unpaid standbys on their roster instead of flying and earning the wage they aim. Soooo it is strongly recommended not to break MOL's balls otherwise the people who wants to try will sink down to hell.

Ryanair business model is extremely well designed. The managers are the kings, the workers are the slaves and passengers are happy to go on holidays for peanuts.

Workers knew those rules from their first contact with the company during the interviews. There is no surprise.

[irishpilot1990]

Oh wind check, you do sound like management, or someone with an alternative motive?????? :ok: :cool:

[WallyWumpus]

Nick14,

I don't understand what you mean by being 15k worse off, can you explain?

Wally.

[wind check]

Let's remember the GOOD old days. The good high cost aviation....

Pan Am - Trailer - YouTube



:cool:

[16024]

Wind check: tell everyone what exactly you want, or go away. You sound just like dear departed MOLGenius (no posts since march..).
As far as i can tell it's just noise.
"You signed the contract" (duck..)
"You all had it coming" (duck..)
"You've ruined everything" (duck..)
It all gets old pretty quick.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Moaning on here about how sad you are with your lot since July 2010 and doing nowt about it gets even older even quicker.

You got what you deserved sucka's!!!!!! Ha ha ha ha ha

[widered]

Its actually good to see windcheck 'DOB' and MOLG 'EW' on here.
they must have problems getting onto REPA lately so they have to spoute their greedy crap on here.

Reality is Ladies and Gents the more these attacks come the more we are starting to get places on REPA !

Despegue REPA will never become a union most of us know that because the slander and propaganda that is spouted from management will be done the same about any union IALPA or BALPA It is your suceptibility to it that matters!

Their is so much to be gained for all Ryanair pilots for unionisation of the company and absolutely nothing to loose.

You will get a pay rise with a union.
You will be treated fairly!
You will have a proper basing policy !
You will have a proper pension !
You will have legal protection! especially important if you have a liability clause in your contract! Do you ?
You will be an employee! Not a sub contracter!
Read the Ryanair pilots agreement on REPA created by Ryanair pilots!

The stark reality is you are involved in an industrial war in Ryanair between management and the workers wether you choose to take part or not!

JOIN IALPA Ryanair pilots!Join REPA !

[Teddy Robinson]

I will be forever thankful that I turned down Ryanair when I was unemployed and between contracts. At the time I said .. I would rather eat worms .. and it still holds true.

[wind check]

widered, you are a dreamer mate. The actual facts is that you will get nothing at all. Ryanair does NOT recognize any union. If you try, you will fail and as a consequence you'll be sent out to Kaunas to do unpaid airport standbys all the year. Remember that you are responsible of all this aviation crap because you and your friends were once dyeing to join. Now it's too late for crying. You knew everything before and you agreed!

Save your money, save your energy, and try BA :ok::O


Some great routes out of Kaunas, life is cheap, and girls are lovely :p


http://www.balticstags.com/Cheap%20flights%20Vilnius%20Riga/Kaunas_Airport.jpg

[fireflybob]

wind check, methinks thou doth protest too much........

[16024]

That is mature.
Did Paul get what he deserved?
Dignity and respect.
Everyone reading these posts will see who diplays this, and who doesn't.
MOL and W/C your flags are now up the pole, so to speak.

[leeds 65]

Listen wind check,well done pat on the back but I really couldn't give 2 f**ks if you got into BA or not ok.

Yes we know Ryanair are a horrible bunch.When I joined it was bad,but it keeps getting worse.

Your correct in some respects - a union cannot achieve miracles,and might not negotiate fantastic increases overnight(over time Yes). But at a minimum it will prevent further declines in T and C's.

Long term this place could be great with a union,we just have to stop the rot first.

[widered]

Windcheck you can't send us all to Kaunus I don't think 2000 of us can fit there!
Reality is when there are planes on the ground you will be dragged to the negotiating table with your tail between your legs !

I am not a dreamer and I have no doubt it will work! Why would Ryanair put so much money into preventing us from doing so ?

[nick14]

Wally

I worked out 650 hours (my usual yearly hours) at my rate of 70.5 after sim, and deducted the 3% for the accountants = 44,450 euro gross, £38k sterling, and factor in the fact I have to pay for everything and it's about 15k less than any other 737 FO in Europe. Look at ppjn the usual salary is £48/49 sterling without flight pay pension etc....

[mrsurrey]

speaking of ppjn, now that it's requiring people to register you can see that there are more than 6 times as many ryanair pilots registered as easyjet pilots! Speaks for itself :ouch:

[nick14]

I logged onto ppjn and it asked or a cv and I wasn't particularly keen on given a cv to a website that I have no way of verifying who runs it and what they are doing with my cv.

Did anyone else feel like that?

[zerotohero]

just logged in myself, had to give it a load of details, i just uploaded a blank doc for the CV as your right who the F77K are they to ask for a CV

anyway, the website seems useless now, all I could do was see who else had logged in and click advert banners? whats the point in that,, there used to be some good info on there,,,, if this is the relaunch then they should not have bothered.

[seasexsun]

Hi there!
Yes ppjn is crap. It used to be a great website a few years ago, but lately it was updated every 2 months and now it's even more crap.

Anyway... I was speaking to a friend in Ryanair he told me he's got a 5/3 roster and is very tired. I though you guyas had 5/4 roster, but according to my friend the new deals tend to overall a 5/3 crapy rythm. I thought also the FO salary was 5000 euros/month, but my friend told me he got 2200 euros last month after irish tax, and still has to pay for private health insurance, pension, meals at work (11 hours duty).

Where do people go after Ryanair?

[pilot3103]

5/3 roster are for the small bases, and the pay depends on how many hours you have for which pay scale (per hour rate) then depends on how many hours you work, busy months you can take up to around 7500 euros pre tax, hope that helps

[Teddy Robinson]

Directly to hell as they have relevant experience, or McDonalds for a pay rise and a better public perception of their choice of employer would be my best guess.

[seasexsun]

What do you call small base?
He told me that his captains make 6500 euros/month (take home) working like hell...

[pilot3103]

A small base would only have one or 2 aircraft like Perugia, select bases are 5/3 but not sure exactly which ones, I am on an older payscale, with over 1500 hours I'm on 80.5 euro an hour, so you get a month with 100 hours, sure you can do the maths, pre tax, and I am self employed so not using their accountants, the captains could be on a Ryanair salery contract so will be different

[Say again s l o w l y]

I looked at my pay slip this month. I cannot believe how happy I am that I never took the "opportunity" to work for RYR!

You might think that you're the best paid out there. I'll bet my payslip against yours that that ain't the truth.

Good luck to all of you who are fighting and joining REPA, you have my utmost respect. For those who aren't, well, all I can say is you're stupider than I can possibly describe in print!

O'Leary is a smart fella, no matter what you think of him. Anyone who thinks they can win on their own is fooling themselves.

Oh and just to add. I know 15 RYR skippers who are working their notice at the moment. That's out of a total of 16 RYR skippers I can call friends. Make of that what you will... The sandpit is getting rather congested with Irish accents at the moment.

[rubik101]

I have to assume Teddy Robinson works for, or has worked for, Ryanair to be able to assert such things. How's the working roster at McDonalds then Teddy?

[Mikehotel152]

I'm afraid Nick14 is right, the FO pay at Ryanair is pretty poor by industry standards. Probably 48,000e gross before deductions and tax. And you don't get any benefits whatsoever.

Say you fly a good summer month of 90 hours and earn 7000e. After Ryanair, the Accountants and the Irish Taxman take their slices for doing next to nothing, the money transferred to your bank account will be well under 4000e. That's equivalent to paying over 40% tax.

And it goes without saying that you don't do 90 hours every month, winter hours are half that.

[wind check]

And it goes without saying that you don't do 90 hours every month, winter hours are half that.

and don´t forget you have one month OFF totaly unpaid (it means 0000 € before or after tax, as you wish). And you need to pay for your medical and simulator for OPCs. :ooh:

This company is only for sucka's :}

[leeds 65]

We work 10 months of the year.

1 month unpaid 'unavailability' and 10 days 'additional unavailability'.

If you don't want the 10 days extra,it doesn't matter - they are allocated anyway,anywhere throughout the year at there behest.

These 10 extra days of unpaid leave are usually divided into 5 days and 5 days.
Yeah - 5 'on' days.

So basically you finish your 5 days of work and then - 4 days off,5 days leave,4 days off ! 5 days leave is actually 13 days off ( or half the month). Your 5 on 4 off pattern stays the same.

As an FO with more the 1500 on type I take home 3500 euro per month (averaged over 12 months ). It looks ok,but thats it only cash.

No package whatsoever - pension,LOL,sims,hotels at sim,id's,car park,food,health care,staff travel,no additional off day money(your rate stays the same - i don't work them) etc etc etc