Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?

[Tillingdale]

A small base would only have one or 2 aircraft like Perugia

Perugia is not a base. Did you mean Pescara?

[pilot3103]

Yeah hold my hands up my mistake, don't know much about the Italian bases as live the 'easy' life in the UK, and by easy mean not commuting to get to a base abroard

[Mikehotel152]

And you need to pay for your medical and simulator for OPCs


I had already taken the RST/OPC/LPC costs into account in my figures because they are deducted before you get paid. The cost of the medical each year is a minor cost compared with everything else: My accountant steals more than that each month... :rolleyes:

[bigdaviet]

Any truth in the rumour that Ryanair is to stop doing CPL/ATPL upgrades to stop people from leaving?

[Mikehotel152]

I very much doubt it. Any employer would surely take someone in those circumstance and unfreeze them at next LPC or even beforehand. It's not as though it's a big deal.

Anyway, as far as I know FR are encouraging unfreezing to get people ready for the command course.

[RHINO]

Can someone please tell me what Ryanair pays for TRI/TRE?

[jasonjdr]

Rhino,

Can I ask why? Just curiosity........

FYI, no DEC currently. Also, apart from small minority, many TRI were SFI first and then TRE (tis the preference). Finally, mucho competition for the TRE positions that do come up, so a newbie coming in will have slim chance of the above.....

[RHINO]

Just looking at some options....

[Alycidon]

jason, could you explain the difference between SFI and TRI, I thought they were the same thing.

thx

[smith]

sfi=synthetic flight instructor (simulator instructor)

tri=type rating instructor

[Alpagueur320]

Not all TRE's are ex-SFI's, far from that. I know a couple who were DEC when they joined. The minimum qualification to apply for TRE position is LTC iirc.

But maybe the Training Department makes everybody believe it's the 'prefered option' in order to fill the SFI vacancies??.... A lot of ex-SFI are not even selected to become LTC. And remember, after upgrade the SFI is not used as TRI by the company (there might be exceptions of course). So it's more a qualification 'on paper'...

[RHINO]

Putting SFI/TRI etc to one side and that DECs are not being recruited at the moment can someone tell me what a TRI/TRE gets at Ryanair. Thanks in anticipation.

[Alycidon]

well done smith, but that doesn't really answer the question, I have SFI on my licence, but does that allow me to work as a TRI?

What does a TRI do that the SFI cannot and is there even a payscale at RYR for TRI?

AFAIA, you need SFI on the licence before you can be a TRE, but you can get both at the same time as I did excactly that at a previous company.

once again, can someone tell me what a TRI does at RYR? and is there a payscale?

[VJW]

Slightly off topic, but for info, the SFI is a company authorisation issued by the national authority. It isn't a rating that follows you if you leave the company. Once you leave, you no longer have the SFI. The TRI is a rating endorsed on the ratings page of the licence, and valid for 3 years like the TRE authorisation, that stays in the licence even if you leave the company who you were a TRI for.

VJW

[RHINO]

Thanks VJW

well I would really like to know what SFI's get paid or not! When you say authority I am assuming you are refering to the IAA?

I think I am getting the picture....so what do TRE's get

[Free wings]

I would like to know if anyone has terminated his/her BRK contract without giving the Notice Period. By contract if you want to terminate with immediate effect your contract, you have to pay Brookfield 5000e, so what happens if you are not willing to pay them, do they prosecute you?
In the instance I pass some screenings I am even thinking of paying the 5000e fine to leave asap, but if they don't start court proceedings, what's the point in paying them??

Thanks in advance!

[leeds 65]

You signed the contract.

Do one of the options written in the contract.

option 1 - Hand in resignation letter to BRK and work the 3 months notice.

option 2 - Hand in the resignation letter along with 5000 euro and leave ASAP

Do not just leave and pay nothing.I have 'heard' they chase you and in the unlucky event of traveling on a Ryanair flight in the future - you will be flagged up.

They may also be nasty enough to somehow contact the place you are going or give you a bad reference if you need one.

I know you don't have to tell them where you are going,but you never know - your next employer might ring Ryanair up to 'enquire' about you out of the blue.Then your bunched

Its very difficult - but just play the game and give them a crocodile smile as you leave.Most of us will be in this position some day if things don't improve significantly in the interim.

[VJW]

Most decent airlines don't care what Ryr have to say about you anyway, if you've passed their assessments etc, they'd probably think they are able to judge your character well enough.

Hand you're notice in for 3 months, and just call sick the whole 3 months.....what can they do about that?

[Too Few Stripes]

I and many of my present colleagues have left RYR in the last 6 months. Some of us worked zero notice, some of us worked all of it but they always came up with some excuse to demand some money from us, 3 months notice, OCC course etc. Personally I told them to keep my next 'wage' towards the leaving penalty and I haven't heard anything since. It certainly didn't cover the €5000 they were expecting. To clarify, I and all of my other colleagues were Brookfield slaves not RYR employees. Also, our current employer was well aware that we were breaking the 3 month notice period and were not in the slightest put off by that - as stated at interview I was self-employed and available immediately. I don't for one minute think Brookfield/RYR would want to see there outrageous contract scrutinised in a court so wouldn't expect any legal proceedings. Brookfield were slow in providing 'date references' for the ID but did do so after some pressure from my current employers, failing that I believe that a letter from your crooked accountant would be acceptable for the issue of an ID. Hope that helps.

[Humphrey Bogart]

Lads, 95+ RYR aircraft grounded this winter. I know it for sure and from the reliable source. That is one third of the Ryanair fleet. They do not have crews to operate. That shows you the resignations scale.

[No RYR for me]

Lads, 95+ RYR aircraft grounded this winter. I know it for sure and from the reliable source. That is one third of the Ryanair fleet. They do not have crews to operate. That shows you the resignations scale.

Would love to agree with you but it is probably a combination of the standard "we withdraw aircraft from your airport because you are too expensive (but actually we do this every winter because of lower demand and we have the best lease rates in the industry so we can do it) strategy"and maybe because of not enough crew. Again would love to hear the second bit but probably not :\

[silverhawk]

Well ground the rest of the fleet over the winter, whilst you are quiet and not going to be earning much anyway.

Show O'Leary,Ryan,Dooney etc where the real power lies.

Short term pain, long term gain.

[No RYR for me]

On a side note if you are leaving the company there is an important thread and contact details on REPAweb for Brk pilots, if you follow that thread you might leave ryanair with far more money in your pocket. What are Ryanair going to do if you do not pay the "fine"? Sue your company? Which they forced you to setup and forced you to use their accountants, does anyone believe they want that to make it to court?

Useful post. In short: sign up to REPA! :ok:

[Narrow Runway]

Leeds 65:

It's not legal to give a sh1tty reference. The worst they can do is say you worked there and then left, and as for "flagging you up" as a future passenger? What are you going on about? What would they do? Offload you? Beat you up? Don't be so ridiculous.

VJW: Interesting point that, but remember you SHOULD tell your licensing CAA if you are off sick for 21 or more days.

[VJW]

Narrow runway- glad someone noticed, and liked my idea - even if I was joking a bit.

Of course if you're sick for more then 21 days in a row then you should notify your CAA. However, you're not sick for 21 days in a row, just those 5 days out of every 9 (if you're on a 5/4 roster) for 3 months that you are required to work your notice. They like a doctors note for 3 days or more, but you don't have to do it. Not only are you leaving, you no longer worry about an 'unauthorised absence' on your file!

Just a thought, but maybe worth doing it in the final month of the notice period, as they would probably not pay you anyway (for reasons mentioned above), so once paid on the 2nd month call sick the whole of the last month ahaha

[Aerlingus231]

Ryanair reports 20% boost in profits - RT News (http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1107/ryanair.html)

[Nicholas49]

It's not legal to give a sh1tty reference.

Sorry to be a stickler, but that's not quite correct. There is nothing illegal about giving a 'sh1tty' reference in itself. The reason employers don't is because it opens the door to being sued for defamation if the reference turns out to be untrue. If they want to write a bad reference and are confident they could defend it in court, they are not prevented from doing so in law. Most won't take the risk though...

(I've learnt a lot about aviation from this site, so I have to give something back where I can.:ok:)

[BALLSOUT]

An employer or ex employer can say pretty much anything about you in a referance, so long as it is true. If however untruths are said in the referance, purly in attempt to harm your future employment it would be considered to be a "criminal offence" and this could carry unlimited damages, and would probably be a lot easier and cheaper to fight, than that of defamation.
Because of this, I doubt if any employer would give a false referance.
They don't have to make anything sound nice though!

[justmaybe]

Ballsout:
Utter nonsense!!!!

[doniedarko]

No ....because a new type rating is an IR and license renewal its included in your 30K+ euro fee to Ryanair. You will have to give the IAA another €360 for the privilege of them issuing you with the valid paperwork when you pass...but what you should do is join Balpa/Ialpa and join REPA. Get educated, get protected. Forget about a quick command( 3-4 years) as expansion will have stopped by then. If Emirates have stopped hiring you maybe be stuck with them for awhile.:sad:...Might as well know what you are letting yourself in for :ok:...and try be a little more prudent where you post your queries :ugh:....Oh hang on I see you are Belgian ;)

[justmaybe]

777Yankyee.
No, you do not. Enjoy the course and best wishes!!

[BALLSOUT]

Utter nonsense!!!!
justmaybe, What are you on about?

[No RYR for me]

also interested to find out what the status is at the moment. How many have left?

[Johnny Tightlips]

Word from the training departement is 400 pilots left in the last year.....

[doniedarko]

400 sounds about right. Whats interesting is most of these guy's who were F/O's ready for command upgrade. Now they are gone there is a hole in the company's roster for the summer. Look at the 'Storm McGinley' DEC and Non type rated DEC advertisement. Look at the sprint to Budapest to 'rescue' the Malev pilots. If rumours are to be believed an approach was made to Air Baltic for their skippers only to be rebuffed (I think they were told to F**k off by chief pilot:D) Allegedly no command upgrade courses in East Mids from Nov to Jan. ..Anyway bottom line not enough bums for LHS in Summer. Now watch them blame grounded airplanes on the pilots it will be 'our' fault. Don't sign new contracts , sign the unity pledge , stop working days off and changing shifts to facilitate the compant that never facilitates you !. It could be great but its gonna cost them and us in the short term !

[SD.]

The schedule was 80 a/c down in the winter.

[McBruce]

JohnR, in the busy summer period yes. This winter they grounded half the fleet and even the aircraft that were in rotation, wern't exactly busy. Hopefully this summer will be more revealing.

[Kernow 101]

They have also hired 400 cadets in the same period.:8

Admittedly some of those left will have been Capts, but they have upgraded a few FO's also. Plus there were quite a few Capts on part time who can be called upon again for full time in the summer. I would not bank on them struggling this summer as much as some of us are expecting:hmm:

[No RYR for me]

That is in line with what I hear at airlines that are hiring: RYR CV's a plenty... :E

[plain-plane]

450 new typerating courses, at 30000 euro, with a 50% profit... (50% depending on how the calculate the costs)

The FR training department make a greater profit than many airlines !!!


funny thing is. they are now training so many cadets they have capacity problems training new instructors...

[McBruce]

Ack cadets don't replace SFOs or CPTs. RYR has never had a shortage of FO's, the shortage comes from the LHS and SFOs ready for the CU. The majority have left for the sandpit and the hours requirements to head east are right in RYRs CU terrority. A cadet will take 4 years to replace a SFO leaving for EK.

[EKB777]

Plenty of experienced Captains an SFO's are applying and a very high proportion of those are being successful. They are proving to be of a very good standard and EK like them....a lot!

[Free wings]

Last week in Dubai, one day 16 pilots finished their pilot selection, only 4 passed, but as far as I know, in that selection there weren't any RYR guys. Following day, approx. 20 pilots finished the selection, 12-14 passed, (5 ryr guys) all passed! ;)

[Bokkenrijder]

They are proving to be of a very good standard and EK like them....a lot! Of course! They are obedient slaves, willing to work long hours, incapable to form or join a union, who pay for their own sim checks, medical and even for an online Pikey Airlines application! From an employer point of view, who wouldn't want them?! :}

Well lads , did anyone make a plan yet??? "Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?" Well, so far "the plan" (58 pages further) is to trade in a Pikey second hand caravan dealer for a Bedouin second hand camel dealer and score a bigger shiny jet rating in the process. That's "the plan!" :ugh: :rolleyes:

[Al Murdoch]

Nothing is being discussed on PPRUNE because it's a waste of energy. Tuppenny ha'penny opinions posted by cretins/flight sim geeks/trolls are of little help in this situation.
REPA is where it's at.

[Callsign Kilo]

Bokkenrijder - you know where you can stick your holier than thou horse **** don't you? Come do a few days in Ryanair and then lead us down your sacred path. Ohh....ok then...I see! Its easier to sit outside the tent and piss in. Fantastic and informative input. Heard it once, heard it a million times.

Good luck to those on REPA and IALPA - trying to make a difference.

[captplaystation]

Sounds vaguely. . . . . Dutch ? bit of a generalisation I know, but I remember most were well liked in their time in Ryanair ;)

[Johnny Tightlips]

Oh yes the DC's. I love flying with those:rolleyes:

[root]

Of course! They are obedient slaves, willing to work long hours, incapable to form or join a union, who pay for their own sim checks, medical and even for an online Pikey Airlines application! From an employer point of view, who wouldn't want them?! :}

"Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?" Well, so far "the plan" (58 pages further) is to trade in a Pikey second hand caravan dealer for a Bedouin second hand camel dealer and score a bigger shiny jet rating in the process. That's "the plan!" :ugh: :rolleyes:

PPruNe is not the place where things are happening. REPA is more alive than ever and things are moving along on the base level. We're taking it one step at a time.

Aside from that. For an employee of a company responsible for the single largest loss of human life during an airline operation, you really ought to get down from that high horse buddy. :)

[Push to talk]

Came across this, MOL is maybe getting 'a bit' short of pilots, but is this the way? And in the article they dont even mention the Spanair guys would have to pay a new typerating themselves as well.

Spanair workers reject offer of employment from Ryanair (http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_33641.shtml?)

If you ask me MOL will overplay his hand in not too long.

[Callsign Kilo]

I believe the option of being ready-rated and Hungarian is hot to trot. I feel the of the demise of Malev has possibly saved Michael from a very painful summer? Lucky barsteward!!!

Anyone else think this is plausible?

[beachbumflyer]

Why should MOL be worried about loosing pilots. FR will hire new ones, and these pilots will pay for their trainning, hotels, uniforms, etc. So, the more pilots they loose the more pilots they hire, and the more pilots they hire the more type ratings they sell. Good business.

[Callsign Kilo]

The point is obviously a bit lost beachbumflyer. Whilst I accept certain elements of your argument, there is one major flaw. You can't run an airline on 250hr wonder kids. Ryanair will always be able to sell ratings to the wannabe brigade. They can't keep experienced crew and they rely on airlines hitting the wall in order to fill their left hand seat requirements. Many of these guys are simply there as a last resort and therefore leave at the closest opportunity. Back to square one.......too many 250hr wonder kids, a gulf of experience missing, little to no command ready FOs and Captains departing for pastures new.

[Mikehotel152]

Callsign Kilo,

And yet, year after year goes by and the Airline always finds a way to cope with the pilot exodus.

It is nevertheless very sad that they don't value our skills or experience.

[Callsign Kilo]

Their loss is another's gain. They never value anything unless it costs them nothing. Fact of life in Ryanair.

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

Me got cups.

Me got coffee.

Me got water.

But me got no idea how to make coffee.

(With apologies to Walliams and Lucas)

The average cadet:-)

Any airline.

[EKB777]

What now with the possibility of DEC at EK for experienced FR skippers. Will the floodgates open leaving a gaping hole in the experience levels on the flighdeck at Ryanair? FR are desperate to attract Experienced Malev captains, but how many of them will choose FR over EK? (some certainly will to stay closer to home)

I have a feeling that the pressure will soon begin to mount on the short sighted and greedy management at Ryanair who don't seem to realise that the most important asset they have are their employees. If they need to continue to park aircraft through the summer due to lack of crews there could be some interesting times ahead.

[doniedarko]

I believe its the insurance underwriters that dictate the 'minimum' for command. The training department have a standard to maintain and you either meet it or you don't. I would imagine that it would be quite a drag on training resources if the experience/quality of candidate were to be lowered. I'm am not implying a lower standard anywhere else but you really need to be in FR a few years to understand the MO. (with reference to direct entry F/O's)

[RAT 5]

Why are people considering only the M.East? There's no mention on here about the rising demand in China and the big bucks on offer. 6on 2 off with commuting home doesn't sound too bad, and with married accommodation provided in some exciting cities I would have thought there'd be some takers.

[Artie Fufkin]

Exactly why would a European pilot find any city in China "exciting"?:confused:

I'm surprised there's any takers!

[irishpilot1990]

Exactly why would a European pilot find any city in China "exciting"?:confused:

I'm surprised there's any takers!

They might find the money in asia exciting :}

Some of these new commuting contracts offer you more time at home then Ryanair and Emirates!!

If you are prepared to leave Europe it has to be worth considering going beyond the sand pit and get a commuting contract which offers a lot more money.

Some of the asian carriers treat you very very well. Sandpit or paddy field?

[Tillingdale]

Emirates DEC (https://ekgrpapplications.emirates.com/Careersonlineapps/JOB_VACANCIES/JobDetails.aspx?advno=64AD3E6059F3E34D) recruitment has recommenced. If Emirates decide to recruit FR Captains the "mass exodus" so far is going to seem like a trickle. Combined with a pronounced thinning of the SFO ranks there should be some interesting times ahead.

[Fly26]

Im not sure how much of a 'mass exodus' there will be, it's a big thing moving to Dubai for those with families...but those without will prob give it go.

good luck to all!

:ok:

[Vim Fuego]

It is indeed a "big thing" moving your family to Dubai but at least, once there, their days off will all be spent with their family rather than losing half of them commuting home every week. For those pilots I'd suggest there isn't a lot to think about. Ryanair seem determined to carry on driving pilots away with basing policies and, more lately, no chance of any summer leave. For many it may be a case of, "may as well just go and live in the sun".
Good luck to them.

[RAT 5]

I still find it quite staggering that today the total flight hours up front can be less than that required for only the captain by charter airlines only 15 years ago. When & why did the required 'knowledge, experience, capability and maturity' suddenly become diluted? Are the companies now running risk/threat management studies? And deciding that robotic trained SOP monkeys flying around in much improved and reliable a/c, within much improved and reliable ATC areas into much improved airports with ILS's instead of NPA's, or nothing at all, are in fact an acceptable risk? I assume the insurers are part of this decision. But it does seem something that only accountants could tolerate. A pilot driven airline might be more sceptic, but no doubt someone out there will put me right on that. Profit is profit. Now back to watching flying Alaska and Ice pilots.

[beachbumflyer]

Yeah, I've been watching Ice Pilots, too.

[smith]

Buffalo Joe McBryan seems even more ruthless than MOL :-O

[wayupthere]

reliable a/c, within much improved and reliable ATC areas into much improved airports with ILS's instead of NPA's, or nothing at all

Hang on, are we still talking about Ryr?!? I wish!!

[fastidious bob]

I still find it quite staggering that today the total flight hours up front can be less than that required for only the captain by charter airlines only 15 years ago. When & why did the required 'knowledge, experience, capability and maturity' suddenly become diluted? Are the companies now running risk/threat management studies? And deciding that robotic trained SOP monkeys flying around in much improved and reliable a/c, within much improved and reliable ATC areas into much improved airports with ILS's instead of NPA's, or nothing at all, are in fact an acceptable risk? I assume the insurers are part of this decision. But it does seem something that only accountants could tolerate. A pilot driven airline might be more sceptic, but no doubt someone out there will put me right on that. Profit is profit. Now back to watching flying Alaska and Ice pilots.

Rapid expansion, good training and FDM. Insurance companies love FDM:O

Required knowledge and capability has not become diluted. Some of the younger guys going through the command process are very capable, trust me. Experience? Yes. Maturity? Sometimes. Experience is by no means a good indicator of safety and talent judging by the recent AAIB reports I have read:bored:

[dannyalliga]

Required knowledge and capability has not become diluted. Some of the younger guys going through the command process are very capable, trust me. Experience? Yes. Maturity? Sometimes.

A few tech questions about systems or even better a discussion during the cruise about "what would you do now if..." usually throws 2/3 of them off because they haven't read it in the SOPs.
Some guys are capable but nowadays it is the minority, trust me.
Maturity?The one you can expect from a 25 years old.

[fastidious bob]

27 years of operations, 1300 flights per day, not one fatality.

Don't get me wrong I am no huge fan of Ryanair, however, the training cannot be faulted. Not with stats like those.

[dannyalliga]

It's 17 years, not 27.
Statistics are one thing, the real world is a different story.
Just because we didn't have a fatality that doesn't mean today's standards are the same as they were a couple of years ago.
Lately they are literally sending anybody with 3000hrs for their upgrade and the general levels of knowledge,experience and maturity are lower than they used to be.
I just hope not to be proven right by something unpleasant happening....

[Gruffy]

Running down the quality of command candidates is misleading and without foundation.The quality of both cadets and command upgrade material is very high. It is not now nor has it ever been easy to pass the Ryanair command upgrade. The expected standard is very high and the time to achieve it is strictly limited, anybody that doesn't is back to the RHS.
Many things make a good captain but some that dont are thousands of hours sat in the RHS watching clouds, flying radar vectored ILS's and 3000m long runways.
How old was Guy Gibson when he was in command of dozens of aircraft and hundreds of men at the time of the Dambusters mission - 24 was he to young/inexperienced/immature. I think not.
To my certain knowledge there is no 'dumbing down' of the upgrade process and it is defenatley not a right of passage. Commands are available for those that want them and are good enough - simple as that.

[Drakestream]

It's 17 years, not 27.
Statistics are one thing, the real world is a different story.
Just because we didn't have a fatality that doesn't mean today's standards are the same as they were a couple of years ago.
Lately they are literally sending anybody with 3000hrs for their upgrade and the general levels of knowledge,experience and maturity are lower than they used to be.
I just hope not to be proven right by something unpleasant happening....

Hate to break it to you, but it's 27. They started flying in 1985.

[dannyalliga]

Guys at my base ,which is one of the biggest in the whole network, this is the general opinion of the instructors and mine as well.
Then if you talk to junior F/O's they all tell you the same story: Captains who are raised in house are all scared of disconnecting the automatics and there is ever hardly any hand flying going on.
And these F/O's are those who now start their Command upgrade after 3000hrs of autopilot engagement at 400" and LNAV/VNAV flying.
The other day I tried a V/S non precision approach for fun and the guy next to me would have been lost without that vertical path indicator on his ND......

[fastidious bob]

The other day I tried a V/S non precision approach for fun and the guy next to me would have been lost without that vertical path indicator on his ND......

Naughty, naughty. V/S approaches should not be practised on line. A guy of your calibre should know that ;)

[dannyalliga]

Naughty, naughty. V/S approaches should not be practised on line. A guy of your calibre should know that http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

This is exactly what I am referring to when I say the general level is taking a dive.
VNAV approaches are the "preferred" method and V/S approaches are absolutely legal on the line (OPS A 8.3.0.3.8), in fact should you fly a timed non-precision approach which is not in the FMC data base you are supposed to execute a V/S approach (VOl 1 NP 21.67) which is detailed in the normal maneuvers in your QRH (Maneuvers page 2.10).
Fastidious Bob, study your manuals and practice some V/S approaches before you actually need to shoot one downroute.....:=:=:=

[excrab]

I have never worked for Ryanair, although I did once turn down the opportunity to go for an interview with them. Therefore I am not qualified to comment, really...

But the most worrying thing I have read on this thread is that a non precision approach using VS, but presumably flown with the autopilot engaged and in VORLOC, is considered unusual. What happens if they have to fly a night visual approach to an airfield with minimal approach aids and lighting. Until now I thought the stuff about low experience levels on the flight deck was being blown up out of proportion, now I am not so sure...

A few posts ago comment was made about experience required on the flight deck 15 years ago by charter companies. Eighteen months ago I was flying for a small, now extinct Swedish/greek charter company that required 5500 hours, if I remember correctly, for a captain, and had some F/Os with 5000+ hours who previously held commands with another extinct UK charter company but couldn't have a command with Hagars colleagues. Most of the F/Os had 2000 hrs or more so the least experienced crew we sent anywhere had 7500+ between them, and most had many thousands more...

Unfortunately robust SOPs and FDM do not make up for lack of experience...by definition FDM catches people, it doesn't prevent anything except by fear. Whatever anyone might want to believe experience does prevent incidents and accidents...a 737-800 is not a small turboprop or piston twin, and that is where pilots with 3000 hrs TT should be getting command experience, not sitting in a shiny jet with 180 passengers behind them...

[16024]

Everything Built4Speed said. Plus:
First of the present fleet arrived 2002, so let's call it 10 years for RYR as we know and love it, and stop playing silly buggers about Bandierantes 27 years ago. And it's increased by 600% since then...
Thin ice, skin of the teeth etc. And yes, the fleet is not getting any younger, even if the new skippers are. Have you actually taken the time to talk to the engineers recently? Probably not, as they are spread pretty thin, and sometimes non-existant, and you don't have time anyway, if you are doing all your SOPs properly. How much pressure will there be this summer to carry those "little" snags home to get signed off?
Not allowed to practise V/S approaches on line? Not what the manual says.
Back to thread, anyone? Strike one more off.
Out of here.

[go around flaps15]

Hmmm. Dannyalliga autopilot engagement at 400? Never saw that before its usually MFRA on NADP2 at the very least. Anyway just read a report that just came out about an Air Europa 737-800 going into GCRR. 21NM and 10000 feet they pressed on. Result: Off the end of the runway. Skipper had 14000 hours. Now most 3000 to 4000 hour skippers in Ryanair that I know would have requested an orbit from ATC( our procedures stipulate that you must be above 3000 feet and outside of 10 miles to do this). Or delaying vectors or just hit the triggers and went round. Why? Because this particular incident is why the strict sops at FR are there. Don't knock the young skippers at FR 9 out of 10 of them are SAFE as houses. Simple as that. Name of the game is safety not how good you are at vertical approaches and incidently I do quite a lot of them myself into Kerry when 08 is in use. But I only do it when operationally required. And no I don't need a vertical profile on the ND either

[Say again s l o w l y]

Why is being able to fly a V/S approach supposed to be anything other than one of the most basic skills that a commercial pilot should have?

If you can't do a NP approach manually on the standby instruments on a rubbish night into a dodgy field, then go and practice please. I might be down the back one day and if you have to have a debate about this, then I'd rather know in advance so I can book with another carrier.

Seriously, how is this even being mentioned? Never have I been so glad of my first job being on a shonky old turboprob with naff all kit that forced you to learn the basic hand-flying skills that having read this thread could be missing in some people.

[fireflybob]

Don't knock the young skippers at FR 9 out of 10 of them are SAFE as houses.

Irrespective of age that should be 10 out of 10!!

It's the swiss cheese model - yes they have had a good safety record (but with a few lucky escapes).

Experience (or not so much of it) is one of the holes in the model. That doesn't mean that (relatively) inexperienced Commanders are not "safe" - remember that RYR does a lot of sectors and, compared to other operators, said Commander will, pro rata, have done many more take offs and landings. They DO have a very robust SOP and training system.

However I see the convergence of quite a few factors (and this isn't only specific to RYR) such as reduction in handling skills due to increased use of automation, over reliance on training SOPs as opposed to understanding and original thought which is required when things are not "standard", repetitive duty days which stretch the limit combined with days off being used to position to/from base, etc etc.

It is these factors combined with reducing experience levels (in both left and right hand seats) which I see as a threat to safe operation.

[fastidious bob]

16024/dannyilligia

Not allowed to practise V/S approaches on line? Not what the manual says.

Suggest you study your manuals

We do not do CDA approaches for any V/S NPA's. Nor do we

practice V/S NPA's at any of our bases.


Page 131 sop manual 7.1.6


;)

[Say again s l o w l y]

Wowsers. So are you allowed to fly manual NPA's to practice? Or do you have to wait for the sim time that you pay for to do that?

So whilst it's in the book, do you think it's a good idea?

[dannyalliga]

go around flaps15,

In my opinion people should practice V/S approaches even if not operationally required if WX not a factor just like visual approaches should be flown "stick and rudder" and not monkey style like per FR sop's (flown LNAV-VNAV).
By the way new F/O's never get to fly a real visual during their training because the LNAV/VNAV visual is only demonstrated to them by the trainers and afterwards they are not allowed to fly it while inexperienced (500hrs); after becoming "experienced" by never trying a visual nor a x-wind landing with more than 15kts they can start flying LNAV/VNAV visuals and watch Captains landing in x-wind because if the wind is more than a few kts most Captains take over.
So after 3 years flying this way the F/O goes for his upgrade....

fastidious,
ah yes the SOP guidelines....so tell me do you select the 3 rings in the fix page on an ILS approach?I do....

[root]

It is easy to jump on the bandwagon. But to those lamenting over lack of experience I ask you, where is the data? What do you have that backs up your claims. Could we stick to the hard facts guys?

All pilot bodies are governed by the laws of averages. There are good pilots, average pilots and bad pilots. Hours flown does not tell all. It is an idle hope. But I for one would love to see actually incident statistics that take into account commander experience.

I can't help but wonder if we'd all be surprised at the outcome of such a survey.

[fastidious bob]

ah yes the SOP guidelines....so tell me do you select the 3 rings in the fix page on an ILS approach?I do....

Not sure what to make of that. I do as it happens.
Even though I know the SOP manual pretty well I am not an SOP monkey. I have always felt SOP's are there for guidance. If the others guy wants to deviate slightly, providing its not dangerouse, I have no problem with that, as long as he makes it clear. I would never have a problem with my FO practising a V/S approach, however, I Would not take the p**s out of him for using the FPV. It's a useful tool, that's why they designed it.:rolleyes:

Any way back to the thread, the exodus....

[dannyalliga]

Never made a piss of anyone, was just making a point regarding the over reliance on automation and sops and the subsequent loss of basic skills and common sense.
As far as the exodus is concerned most LTC at my base have applied to EK DEC and word has it the base TRE also applied; quite a few guys are also looking at QR since it seems to be in fashion lately since they say will take DEC on the new 787.

[BurnDownTheRumormill]

I occasionally fly with guys who break out in a cold sweat when I ask if they're ok for me to do a visual approach (the sweating starts before I mentioned the hand flown and raw data parts of my plan) to our home base on a cavok, no traffic day. I've had some very good reasons why we keep the automatics in that I had missed or forgotten (Airspace, CB drifting towards final approach track etc). But too often its feeble excuses from the same guys - "oooooow well it's been a long day" "I don't like paperwork" "...well...OFDM these days" or a small cumulus 20nm downwind of the field.

What an absolute embarrassment, we are professional pilots. Just because FR would rather you kept it in LNAV/VNAV at the risk of addling your brain flying a simple circuit on a nice day to an empty airfield, doesn't mean you should believe them - Nobody takes anything else they say seriously, why on earth wouldn't you believe that it's quite useful to be proficient at actually flying the plane... it seems preposterous this even needs discussing.

Most depressing is when LTCs spout this stuff, my last line check debrief consisted of the sage advice to climb to another level the exact instant it becomes the max in the FMC (complete with 10 minutes of gushing talk about how saving fuel gives him such personal satisfaction). This was followed by a lecture on how hand flying is distracting and uses valuable capacity. What kind of tosser cares more about 7kgs of fuel than about being able to fly the airplane should the need arise.

I hope it wasn't too arrogant of me to put that debriefing in the mental shredder upon vacating the crew room.

[fastidious bob]

Burn down,

Maybe the Captain is not as confident in your abilities as you are.:= I have no issue with an FO, one who I know I can trust, disconnecting the auto pilot in the right conditions. I have seen one too many FO's disconnecting the AP and completely f***k it up. Flying the line is no place for show boating, especially in busy airspace. If you want your kicks flying go and hire a Cessna for the weekend.

[dannyalliga]

Maybe the Captain is not as confident in your abilities as you are.:= I have no issue with an FO, one who I know I can trust, disconnecting the auto pilot in the right conditions. I have seen one too many FO's disconnecting the AP and completely f***k it up. Flying the line is no place for show boating, especially in busy airspace. If you want your kicks flying go and hire a Cessna for the weekend.

I happily let them fly manually, try some raw data without F/D, fly a REAL visual without that monkey LNAV/VNAV stuff and definitely don't fly max ALT because I could not care less about fuel saving and prefer have a little margin in case of turbulence.
If I don't like what the F/O is doing I can give advise as we fly along and maybe he can learn something, if I still don't like what he does I can take over and as a last resort I can do a G/A because there is a "no blame policy".
At the end of the day the F/O and myself have had the opportunity to refresh our skills and maybe even improve them making us a more proficient crew if compared to those sop monkeys who are lost if you switch off the F/D on them.
And to those who bring up the "busy airspace" thing I remind you that, apart from literally a couple of airports, we fly to little ****e holes in the middle of nowhere while our DL or UA colleagues fly visuals into ORD.....

[silverhawk]

Personal satisfaction?


If that idiotic LTC wants personal satisfaction, give him permission to go use the forward toilet for a while.

This just exemplifies how things are going there..kids that know no better spouting the RYR mantra

[16024]

Fastidious Bob.

I said:
Not allowed to practise V/S approaches on line? Not what the manual says.
You Said:
Suggest you study your manuals
Then you said:
I would never have a problem with my FO practising a V/S approach
I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say, but your SOP manual reference is a very good point, since the heading of the section you refer to is "Guidance". Words like that, along with "should", and "recommended", have a very different meaning to "must", "shall", "mandatory" etc and it is carefully written that way.
Whilst remembering that this is an "Exodus" thread, the dilution of experience is valid here, and the old fashioned skills that some of the guys here are trying to highlight, are very much an issue.
And on almost the same theme, with reference to the Lanzarote overrun, there were so many SOP violations there, that holding up the company manual, and saying "because of this, it couldn't happen here" is pointless. There is no company in the western world whose SOPs would allow an unstabilised approach to continue. And to say that a 3000 hour skipper would not have let it happen isn't really saying anything.

And before anyone gets the impression that I don't have lots of respect for anyone who jumps through the hoops with 3000 hours. I got my first jet command with 1700 hrs multi time. I then kept my head down, and refrained from telling everyone how good I was.

[BurnDownTheRumormill]

Maybe the Captain is not as confident in your abilities as you are. I have no issue with an FO, one who I know I can trust, disconnecting the auto pilot in the right conditions. I have seen one too many FO's disconnecting the AP and completely f***k it up. Flying the line is no place for show boating, especially in busy airspace. If you want your kicks flying go and hire a Cessna for the weekend.

I agree with you, it's largely their bum on the line if the FO makes a meal out of it. But I was aiming that at the very small percentage of Captains who aren't confident in their own ability to do the most basic stuff so wouldn't dream of letting someone else have a pop. Maybe I didn't try hard to stress a considerant for traffic and any adverse conditions, I don't go trying to do this stuff into Gatwick so I can saunter off into the sunset with my aviators on feeling like Tom Cruise. I do it when appropriate because one day I might need that practice.

If that idiotic LTC wants personal satisfaction, give him permission to go use the forward toilet for a while.

This just exemplifies how things are going there..kids that know no better spouting the RYR mantra

I could understand where it was coming from in that case but this guy was well into his 50's and had worked for all manner of operators in the past. I think some guys truly believe, with real zeal, that they need to go around policing the pilot population with their own SOPs and theories in order to prevent a catastrophe. :ugh:

[benyfly]

fastidious bob,
you are right we do not to CDA v/s NPA.....we level off for the v/s NPA, according to the jeppy plates.at least thats as far as i can tell check. fcom np21.68

[Tillingdale]

This thing of flying the MAX flight level not even the optimum but the MAX flight level in the FMC really makes me wonder do guys really think. Danny makes a good point about the margin for turbulence but what about a climb RA?

What do you do then? The aircraft has given you a clear command to climb and guess what? You can not do it.

go around flaps15

Instead of gobbing off in a totally ill-informed manner and slagging off your fellow pilots I wonder would your time time be better spent with your head in the books? Here are your study topics:

1)What default value has FR entered into the FMC so that FR "MAX" is not quite MAX and therefore provides a reasonable margin, a margin more then most airlines?

2) What happens when you are a few thousand of your optimum and you enter severe turbulence (Hint, the ICAO definition is a clue here)? Can the aircraft still stall?

3) Please go back and learn about your systems especially TCAS. Your last sentence scares the crap out of me. The fact that there are people like you flying around me in the same airspace makes my blood run cold. This was also discussed in a company memo but since you don't seem to read the manuals you probably don't read any of those either?

[fastidious bob]

Go around F15

You should really have a greater understanding of TCAS II before making silly comments on a public forum:rolleyes:

Here is a clue 8.3.6.2.2:D

[go around flaps15]

Point taken. I didnt realise there was that much of a margin. I can not remember the last time I flew at Max flight level in the FMC but maybe it is just the skippers I fly with, they all insist on not flying anywhere near it.

Again we learn everyday.

I have looked and learned.:ok:

[saddest aviator]

Please consider this , as a past FR pilot I was disturbed greatly by the company's rigid sop's to such an extent that the well trained fr pilot grows up unable to think outside the box. That is all very well if your emergency goes as per the book but god forbid if it doesn't . The sad truth is that the average FR fo with 3000 hrs right seat in the 73 in all honesty probably has only done 90 seconds hand flying for every 1 hour in the aeroplane how can that be right.

[VJW]

Last few pages on this thread are completely off topic, but regarding last comment, I'm sure the average FO in BA or EK hand flies more then RYR :ugh:

[Dit]

The sad truth is that the average FR fo with 3000 hrs right seat in the 73 in all honesty probably has only done 90 seconds hand flying for every 1 hour in the aeroplane

I think you'll find there's a lot of f/os (and captains) around the network who love to handfly the aircraft. Workload/airspace/weather/terrain/tiredness etc dependent, the A/P, A/T and regularly the F/Ds also will all be turned off for departure/descending out of FL245, as we know our hand flying skills are valuable and need to be maintained. This will be backed up with VNAV and an ILS if available as its both SOP and, in my opinion, sensible.

There are guys round the network that are scared of visuals, but I tend to find them in the minority.

On a side note, I was under the illusion you were allowd a 2.5nm level segment in a CDA and so, if flown accurately, an FR V/S NPA would count. May well be wrong though...

[Mikehotel152]

Well, I am an FR FO and on average I hand fly more than the Captains with whom I fly. Most can't be bothered. Why the constant criticism of FOs when, in my experience at least, it is Captains who are less likely to exercise their greater skills...

[eagerbeaver1]

Goodness, some of you are obnoxious.

Which one of you wallies claimed they hand-fly raw data in IMC? I will have a search.

VJW - It was you. Go and read various threads concerning EK pilots, many are worried their skills are diminishing due to a lack of hand flying.

[737Jock]

What the hell is a vertical speed (v/s) approach?

Serious question, I know of non-precision approaches and precision approaches. But both of them require a vertical speed to eventually land the aircraft on a runway.

The method you use to achieve that vertical speed doesn't matter to my simple mind (handfly, glideslope, vnav, vertical speed all the same)

[16024]

737 Jock.
I think most people would agree with you.
You wouldn't fit in at FR.

[Al Murdoch]

A V/S NPA? As described by Boeing?

[Kernow 101]

What the hell is a vertical speed (v/s) approach?

Serious question, I know of non-precision approaches and precision approaches. But both of them require a vertical speed to eventually land the aircraft on a runway.

The method you use to achieve that vertical speed doesn't matter to my simple mind (handfly, glideslope, vnav, vertical speed all the same)

A V/S NPA? As described by Boeing?

:ugh::ugh: Oh god............I really have to stop coming to this site:ugh::ugh:

FCTM 5.54 onwards

[root]

The REPA website has been updated once again. It is now much more user friendly.

All RYR, BRK, SMC pilots that have not signed up with REPA yet are encourage to go and have a look.

REPA Frontpage (http://www.repaweb.org)