Ryanair exodus, what is the plan?

[Unregistered737]

I have fallen into the trap but I wanted to get my pennies worth! :}

[wrong_stuff]

well you're entitled to your passionately expressed views, i believe that primarily we each take the best decision for ourselves out of the available options, its that simple, so i'm certainly not whining and i have no regrets, which is apparently what you'd like to believe. I enjoy my job (the day to day stuff) but at the same time theres nothing more i can get from the company that i actually want and the cons now outweigh the pro's. I think this is the way lots of the senior FO's feel.

Also, as for airlines jumping on the FR bandwagon, i think you're letting the other airlines management off the hook a bit there. Nobody has held a gun to anyones head in all this, it has been an industry wide correction which was waiting to take place, the low co's have just been at the cutting edge, shall we say. It wont last though, its just a transitional stage during the rapid expansion of the low co's. The legacy carriers will start to hammer them in terms of value for money at some stage i think. all the best.

[D O Guerrero]

As we don't seem to be seeing pilots at these "other airlines" taking a principled stand and resigning, then I don't think its really fair to blame Ryanair pilots for the downward spiral in terms and conditions that they are apparently having to put up with. Flybe FOs take home around 20k - perhaps we should blame them too? Or perhaps we could all accept that this is what is happening to the free market of pilots salaries and stop moaning.

[Damianik]

"and stop moaning" this is what the king of France said to the peasants that wanted more bread back in the 1700s....

ooooppsss

[Whitstle_Blower]

Listen chaps.

We all know that you can't strike.
We all know that cadets are going to go to the bank of Mum & Dad to get a job flying new 737s.
We all know that SFOs will take the base move to europe to get the 4th stripe with "no positions in the UK for at least 2 years".
We all know that Brookfield is taking over the world and dodging millions of pounds worth of Tax on behalf of Ryanair.
We all know that none of this will change because no single person will start the ball rolling because they know as he takes a step forward, the rest of the pilot population in Ryanair will take one step back. This has been shown year in year out with the REPA and BALPA campaigns.

So, what to do. Well, while you are all sat on your backsides moaning about how things will never change have a little read of that PINK BOOK.

START WORKING TO THE OPS MANUAL!!!!

That means coming in 45 mins before off blocks. That means USING COMMANDERS DISCRETION and if you are knackered, DON'T FLY HOME! You have the choice.
That means not answering your phone when you are not on duty.

If everyone starts reading that Ops Manual, and follows it TO THE LETTER, then there is nothing they can do. You are doing what they have written in black and white. But as long as FOs are coming in 1:30 before off blocks to do the paperwork, and Captains are flying home after doing 13 hour duty days, then they are going to keep laughing at you all, and keep having weekly meetings with free tea, coffee, and biscuits that have come from the pay rise that they have frozen from you for the past 3 years running.

Your call!

[widered]

Whistleblower 'We all know that none of this will change because no single person will start the ball rolling because they know as he takes a step forward, the rest of the pilot population in Ryanair will take one step back. This has been shown year in year out with the REPA and BALPA campaigns.--

I disagree with this post campaigns have failed before but we have learned from them we are all aware of managements tactics they are not changing just intimidation...

The Government in Ireland is changing in Ireland labour will be in government there and the labour laws will change by the end of the year that means an end to the brookfield farce...mark my words its only a matter of time

For me the reasons for being in a union apart from looking for unionisation of the company are clear..
You have an accident and go off the rwy you have legal backing every company will try string the pilot up first.
Secondly - if you ever have any disciplinary action you always have a unions legal advise and backing.

[HighLow]

My GOD !

Emirates Roadshow in Dublin, announced on their website for the 25 January 2011

500 yards from the Ryanair Headquarters in Dublin...

I'd nearly go down there for the entertainment value alone......
Talk about hitting Ryanair where it hurts....


And guys turning up there, especially with all the management snooping around....u think arriving at the door, a RYR pilot would expect roster changes due to "operational reasons". If that is the case....the gloves are OFF !!!

Comments please

[McBruce]

I would go and make your interest known to what ever official mick is there and counting.

[UK Viking]

It seems Ryanair left Marsailles due the french tax system, Copenhagen base not yet a fact, rumours say because local unions will block for Ryanair, Rygge base also problems with norwegian government.
Maybe in the future Ryanair does'nt even need a union if all the unions in europe starts to work for them as well as the governments may question the tax problem ?

[McBruce]

Well I suspect the future will include contracts for different countries. As I understand RYR are resigned to the fact that they will need to put the Italian bases on Italian contract - they have a huge market in Italy so it's a different story to the French/MRS scenario. Due process in Italy takes time, so who knows when this will happen.

I don't know what happened with RYR, they had all the enthusism when they moved to the UK, set up a UK company and issued UK contracts. They moved further afield and just couldn't be arsed following due process.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Unreg 737

Please tell me where the difference is between a bond for 3 years on a reduced salary and paying for the TR upfront on a full salary

The difference being that having already paid between EURO 40-90,000 on initial training you have to add another EU 30k for TR, then during training you have to pay rent/hotel bills etc while on zero salary, and then a reduced salary until line training finished. Is a a new FO really going to be able to give their all to flying the aircraft while wondering how he's going to pay his next loan repayment, mortgage/rent payment, leccy bill, car loan etc? And don't get me started on P2F!!!!

But of course most cadets don't actually have to pay these loan payments as mummy and daddy have sacrifced the equity on their homes and put at risk the biggest asset they have worked for 9-5 for most of their lives.

Anyway I digress, the jist of this is the eroding terms and conditions. You were all MOL disciples when you forked out for the TR, all of you being pieces of the crazy Ryanair jig-saw that you saw through rose tinted spectacles.

Now your love affair with MOL has ended you are acting like crazy, jilted women, whining about how FR are not the airline you fell in love with. You were all part of the jig-saw so shut up and deal with it. :ok:

[Unregistered737]

MOLG you just don't get it do you? If you had half a brain on you you would of done the sums but because I am nice and i like to help stupid people below are the figures which I ran through before taking the job at FR

Here is an example for you.....bearing in mind both cadets have forked out for the same training so we can disregard that!

Cadet at thomas cook

Yr1 - £30,000 BEFORE TAX
Yr2 - £32,000 BEFORE TAX
Yr3 - £34,000 BEFORE TAX

Total - £96,000 BEFORE TAX

At Ryanair

£20,000 upfront for TR - If you were a good negotiator you would probably be paying 2.5% interest so over the 3 years that is £1500 for the three years roughly!

Then as for the salary - yes i lived of baked beams for a month or so whilst i got myself settled. there are very cheap bnb's in most of FR bases. so as for my salary working on some rough numbers hear but i fly on average 750 hours a year...

Yr1 - I worked 11 months (i passed my line check within a month) on a rate of 687 hours @ E75 = 51,500
Yr2 - 56350
Yr3 - oo my rate went up at the end of last year because i had 1500hours but to be nice to you MOLG i will leave it at the same rate = 56350

Total before tax = E164,200 convert that into pounds (I will also give you a good rate MOLG of 0.7 (over the past few years it has been well above that got up to 0.85 and therefore increasing my salary by 15% but we wont try and complicate things for you too much MOLG)

So my total earnings before tax come to £114,940 oh minus the £1500 for the interest and £20000 for the TR comes to £93,440...this is not to mention the tax benefits you can take from offsetting your TR and maybe not declaring a few hundred hours (should you choose to do so!)

MOLG look at the facts before you come on here and moan about us complaining. You say the same BS about how we should just take it in the a5s because we signed the contracts when in actual fact it made perfect sense to take the job....At the moment I am in a stable job with good pay and the poor boy from thomas cook was given a seasonal contract on 81% after year 2...now who made the right decision :mad:! woooo saaaa

Personally my pay isn't too bad what I don't like and the reason i am wanting to leave is because they treat us like :mad: Did i know this before I came YES but when you don't have 'bank of mum and dad' you need to take any job so that you can pay for the other loan you have taken out!

This is a business my friend and you will no doubt be broke if you ever decided to become a pilot.....

U737

P.S For everyone else i am finding it hard not to keep on falling into their trap and I am sorry! MUST DO BETTER!

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

I'm bored with this I wish you all well in whatever path you follow.

[VJW]

Was that a white flag?

[flying lid]

I have heard MOL is to start charging £40 to print a P45 for a leaving employee !!

BBC News - Ryanair challenges Spanish court over boarding passes (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12253928)

Lid

[latetonite]

Can anyone gove me the email address of the chief pilot of Ryanair in a P.M.? Thanks.

[stansdead]

Unregistered737:

Can you tell me where, oh (to copy your patronising tone) where, you can borrow at 2.5% from in this day and age?

Apart from your Daddy.

Such rates are NOT available to borrow at, especially for greasy little oiks like you.

Do you think we are all stupid enough to believe your bullsh1t?

Grow up:ugh:

[zerotohero]

Flying Lid

Where did you hear that?

And how is it even going to work, we are mostly BRK contractors or in that dodgy company set up my the mafia accountants, P45 is for employees right? if none of us are what do we need with a P45 from Ryanair?

[wayupthere]

Plan? It's Ryr!

Bully Bully Bully! It's all they know.....

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

No, no white flag here.

I am not interested in how much U737 earns a year, it's not the point I am making.

If you are subserviant enough to join FR with all the associated costs required to get into the RHS and in turn ruining the t&c's of the whole industry then you immediately gave MOL and his honcho's the upper hand. They realise you bent over to start so see no reason to treat you with respect now.

[lederhosen]

Southwest and Virgin Blue to name but two airlines that people seem to want to work for, also require you to bring your own type rating. I think it is a bit of an oversimplification to blame the way the whole pilot training market has gone on Ryanair.

[16024]

Lederhosen, you are absolutely right.
Almost every airline requires at least type rating, and preferably time on type, particularly for DECs. You can't put the reducing T&Cs of this industry (and most indusrtries...) squarely at Ryanairs door. MOLG has issues, and is trying (successfully..!) to wind some people up.
There are a few quality legacy carriers giving type training, more in fact than in recent years, so this is a good time to think positively about what can be acheived, even if sandbox/ long haul isn't your bag.
What we can do is use the short window of opportunity to try to get a better deal, and not just roll over and say "ah well, what the heck..."
Particularly when there are lots of improvements to lifestyle that can be made for relatively little, or no cost to the airlines.
It just takes a subtle shift in attitude. Starting with ceasing to regard us as a bunch of :mad:'s...

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

C'mon, you knew what you were doing was mercenary when you agreed to FR T&C's, and although FR are not entirely responsible for SSTR being the norm, they were, and are, a major driving force in the introduction of this practice. Unfortunately other airlines saw how easy it was for FR to make part of their annual profits from selling TR's to cadets and followed suit thus bringing down the T&C's of most of the industry.

So take your medicine, accept the FR "regime" have no interest in you and shut up!:=

[reamer]

U737,
Your figures are wrong. The F/o pay is 35euro/hr until 500 hrs on type.
Basic Captains salary for the latest bases in the Canaries is 45000 euro.

[AirSpeedLow]

WHAT! :\

I was speaking to a DUB FO (ryanair contract) the other day and he said his basic was €40000!
how can you do the upgrade and only get an extra €5000 on top???

Unreal! :mad:

[d105]

I'm pretty sure your FO figures are wrong as well Reamer.

I think the cadets are limited to around €40/hr during line training only.

[beachbumflyer]

You can't compare Ryanair to SWA. SWA has been asking for a type rating for a long time, but they don't hire cadets, and you can get your type rating wherever you want for a lot less money. Plus, their T&C's are a lot better. There is no comparison between the two. SWA was the business model MOL used for Ryanair. Why he didn't copy SWA pilots' T&C's? And the pilots at SWA don't want to leave the company, they're happy there.

[reamer]

Airspeedlow,
He must be an old contract FO. 28000 is the rate for FO.

[Unregistered737]

Wowzers that created a s**t storm.

I do apologise for digressing from the original thread but those figures were somewhat generalised (though very close!) it was more to prove a point that it makes no difference between paying upfront for a TR than being bonded.

I do however take offence to being called an greesy oik! Its the sort of thing my father called me when I asked to borrow the money off him for the training! (i might like to point out that the only help from the bank of mnd I had was in securing my loan....they had faith in me and my abilities and I hope that some day I can so the same for my kids)

As for finding a loan I dealt with RBS (before the recession!) and it was a student training loan which was 2% above base rate which = 2.5%...I can pass on the loan advisors number if you wish I am sure i can get a finders fee.

Final point on this....I am on an old BRK contract and I was only line training for a month or so then it went to E60 then onto E75 then onto E85 so my figures aren't wrong just averaged to KISS!

So back to the point.....:)

Its incredible that people like MOLG are on this thread in the first place. We know you think FR is the pits but actually, what people on hear are talking about is trying to leave and move on. Use and abuse...get some hours and then F. off to something better. Whats so wrong in that? The loan won't pay itself without a job so the options for me were FR or no job.... well unless your an idiot thats a no brainer!

MOLG for someone that is 'bored of this' and 'has not interest in us' why do you keep responding? Go somewhere else to get you 2 cents worth unless you can come up with something new and relevant.....

All I want to know is how short of captains they are going to be, how desperate they will be to upgrade FO's and whether or not the BRK contracts are going to be withdrawn

if the price is right then I will stay on...its business! Just incase anyone from FR reads this E45000 is NOT the right price := and hence why i wont be taking the upgrade (amongst other reasons!!!)....FR can only go on this way for so long before people do start to stand up to them and this is what this thread is all about. finally people are seeing what they are truly like (sorry MOLG if we were a bit behind the drag curve but we will catch up!) and I hope and pray that things change not just for us but for everyone. the recession has been a b***h and it has taken its toll....try blaming the :mad: bankers before you go attacking FR pilots.

U737

[nick14]

As of today,

I am no longer working outside my 5/4 as all they do is take me off a flight to work an "extra" on a day off.

Working my days off to help with base administration as it is unpaid and unrewarded.

Working hard to save fuel or handling agents from difficult situations.

I will be working towards a better future for all in the airline industry. Stopping so called "companies" charging for uniform, training, and giving out poor contracts with reducing terms and conditions and treating hard working, committed and genuine pilots like crap!!

Please let's join together to protect ours and our childrens future!!

Edited for spelling

[zerotohero]

F/O figures are all wrong in previous post guys

€0.00 While doing Type rating, Base training and Line training with safety pilot (approx 20sectors)
its €40.50 After safety pilot released while line training (€15 deducted to pay for your LTC basically)
€55.50 Until the end of the month up to 500hr on type
€70.50 Until the end of the month up to 1500hr on type
€78.50 until Command

Command pay varies on contract, somewhere between €120.50 and €133.50

These figures are PSBH after taking away the €4.50 they deduct for the sim

On top of this your accountant takes a further 3%. :eek:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Everytime I read threads like this, I thank my lucky stars that I decided to get out of the cockpit and into the head office.

As a 33 year old idiot, somehow, I now earn more, for less work, than a RYR skipper. Alright I don't get to see the sun rise at FL410 anymore, but then again, I don't need to watch the sun rise at all either as I'm fast asleep in bed.

The more I read here about RYR, the more I think that RYR managament are a smart bunch of so and so's and that pilots really are a lot thicker than they think they are.

If I go back to pilot mode, U737, I promise you that you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. If you cannot see why that might be, then do a bit more thinking, or try and live life without having Daddy pay for a type rating for you. (I've had the 'rents guarantee a mortgage for me, so I do know how easy it is compared to someone who has to make a scary decision about taking out a loan without any sort of safety net.)
You might get a different perspective on life.

Is there actually an "exodus" at RYR? Or is it just like it normally is when threads like this roll around on a monthly basis? Basically, just a figment of some over-active imaginations?

As someone who now works outside the cockpit, can I ask for everyone to carry on this sort of thing.
It does make life an awful lot easier for management types who get a lovely big bonus when they manage to cut a few quid from the salary budget. I want to buy a Porsche and so if everyone carries on like this, I should be able to sort that out in the next few months simply by shafting a few pilots who seem to not give a stuff.

Thanks in advance.

[HighLow]

Slowly,

replying to your post, to answer your question: "THERE IS AN EXODUS".
I would think the fact you are currently working in Head Office, you would be well aware of the current employment climate that currently exists for pilots....obviously not! For your information, 120+ confirmed pilots working their notice... (yup the number is increasing by the week)


additionally, you state you are now in Head Office.....What kind of job you are doing there? , but if its now in a Management role, you have crossed the fence mate....since you are now looking at your former colleagues from a different perspective, its easy for you to knock them....

Yes people post messages on here in frustration...but not like with any other issues people had with RYR, people are acting with their feet...and walking away....

So Slowly, continue with your , what I suspect, are your management tactics to try and dilute the seriousness of the situation for your guys in Head Office, but if you really were in touch with reality, you would know S&*( is hitting the fan big time..

[widered]

High low there is no exodus, there is people leaving 120 people thats less than 5 percent of the pilot workforce management couldn't care less.
The only thing that will change the situation at Ryanair is when people can be convinced to come togetheir and not cave in when management come with their intimidation during the next recognition campaign.
Remeber the next time you save 750kgs to 1000kgs of fuel, remeber the next time you take the gear down at 4 instead of 5 miles where the savings go straight into the executives pockets so they can slap us in the face with it.
Pilots in Ryanair save the most of money for the ryanair operation,Yet we are punished for it with ****ty contracts no pension no stability.basically being payed only 10months of the year.
If you loose your job as a contracter you are not entitled to employment benefits.
No where in the academic, theoretical or practical world of business would it be considered a prudent, efficient or best practice to punish or penalize individuals who make excellent choices in the workplace. Doing so would verge on lunacy.
So Nick14 for example join a union but dont just join ask what you can do to help out.Would you like you'r children to have these sort of employment rights?
For me the cause of unionisation in this profession is more important because the safety of our passengers should be our primary concern when you treat the pilots like this well you havent learned from the buffalo accident.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Highlow, I don't work for RYR, so I have no specific knowledge of what's going on there, which is why I ask the question.

Why the anti-management biasthough? This is something that drives me nuts in this game. This adversarial stance between head office and crew doesn't help anyone and it's something that I hope I can help to start to change in a small way.

I'm not on the "other side of the fence" I know exactly goes on in the cockpit and the pressures people are under. Just because I made the decision to get into another part of the business, doesn't mean that I want to shaft anyone or do anything but make the business stronger, which should mean that everyones jobs are more secure and the chances of better renumeration are there.

I've flown for an airline that went bust and which before that treated it's staff so appallingly, that M'OL comes across like a fairy God-Mother in comparison. However, a lot of people would have them up as a good place. They paid for your rating and all other costs as you were on a fulltime contract, but rostering was a shambles, every decision was questioned and the aircraft were a mess.

To get a stable company, it needs to be efficient. In this era of huge competition, then it means that pilots need to work a bit harder than they did 30 years ago. That's just the way of it.

I'm not a fan of the way RYR uses contractors instead of proper staff. Somehow they've managed to pull of the trick of paying people a fulltimers wage, but without the job security of being a full time employee. Honestly, it's a genius move and whilst I don't like much of what RYR do, you have to respect the way they go about their business. I should think whoever came up with that particular "solution" was initially shouted down with cries of "They'll never fall for that!"
But they did fall for it and continue to do so.

RYR's job is to provide profit for it's shareholders and they do that very well.

Why don't pilots try to think like business people. Instead of just whinging about how certain practises are "unfair." Make a case for why things should change, don't just bleat.

I remember an HR person asked a bunch of pilots and engineers to come up with a case why each of them should be paid more than the other. All that came from the pilots (and I was one of them) was "pay us more, 'cos we is pilots innit and therefore officially awesome." Instead of making the case for how critical pilots are to the business and how what we do has a significant effect on the bottom line.

Once we'd had that bit of advice, it was easy to put together a business case for how pilots should get paid more, but the vast majority of people who post on Pprune simply blow hot air and never actually do anything other than get indignant and shouty.

This makes pilots easy meat for someone in management who's job it is to save money, but keep the same service level. Which is what I am doing BTW. I'm a business analyst which means I look at how things are being done and improve them.

Individually pilots are usually smart people, but as a group, we're pretty dumb really.

[nick14]

It's amazing how many different figure there are for cadets!!

Here's what my contract pays:

Nothing until safety pilot release,
40/sbh until the end of the month you are checked (35.5)
60/sbh until 500 hrs on type (55.5)
75/sbh until 1500 hrs on type (70.5)
78/sbh until command (73.5)
I think the command figure was 130/sbh so 125.5

[4star]

The 'exodus' would be greater if RYR and by extention its pilots didn't have such a reputation. Every recruitment going has alot of RYR (and to a lesser extent Easy) applicants desperate to get out.


But by now we all know someone who works in that company and the crap they put up with beggers belief. Then there is other issue's like the rejection of a union, cadets taking work from experienced FO's, P2F, etc, etc,etc.

When it comes to recruitment, fellow pilots are usually involved somewhere in the process. When the going gets tough they might want to know that that they can depend on their fellow pilot colleague. They might not want someone who will shaft them and then say "well what else was I supposed to do if I wanted to get on with my career"

If you have enough money the low-co's maight be easy to get into but getting out might be harder than they expect.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Really?

I know lots of RYR pilots and every single one of them could easily hold their own in any airline around the world.

[Say again s l o w l y]

The major shareholders are the management, are they not? The company has billions in the bank despite/because of a recession and as a reward for treating its staff and passengers with contempt.

How rich do they need to be? And at what social cost? These people, especially MOL, are the embodiment of capitalist greed. Praising them for being good businessmen is like praising corrupt Third World politicians for increasing the wealth of their friends and family at the expense of the poor.

That's why nobody is proud of working for the company and would leave if there were anywhere they could go. There is no exodus because there are few options...yet.

I'm not going to disagree with any of that, but that is exactly how RYR operate and they're making money for themselves, which is the point of any company.

I don't like how many of the staff are treated and so don't work for them.
However, it doesn't mean that you cannot look from afar and if you take emotion out of it, you have to have respect for what RYR (and that includes the whole team) has achieved in 15 years.

Only a fool dismisses success just because it goes against your morals. I don't like how RYR have done many things, but that doesn't mean that I cannot respect their business acumen. Like and respect are 2 different things.

[Mikehotel152]

Fair point, however there are plenty of companies who have enjoyed amazing success while retaining the admiration and respect of their competitors and staff.

Microsoft?

MOL and Bill Gates: compare and contrast....

[Say again s l o w l y]

Or South West etc.etc.

Please don't think I'm excusing bad behaviour, I certainly am not, my own opinion is that any company is stronger long term when it has a stable, well rewarded and recognised workforce. Not that people should be fat, dumb and lazy of course, but all working for the good of the company and eachother.

In 10 years time we'll see if RYR's management strategy has been successful. So far it has and they've been able to get away with stuff like using contractors etc simply because there are more people seeking jobs than there are jobs, so they've been in the driving seat.

IF things change in the job market (and that is a big if) then the current set up might not be sustainable. Only time will tell.

[4star]

I was of course not talking about their pilot skills. The RYR guys do get a bashing in terms of their reputation. It would be odd if that wasn't reflected in some way when it came to them being recruited into other UK airlines. See post 238.

[Say again s l o w l y]

If BA recruitment is skewed against people from RYR for some reason, then that is very stupid.

It's also mindbogglingly arrogant. I would expect better from BA if this is the case.

[d105]

4star: If that is the case it says quite a bit more about UK airlines and British mentality than it does about people who have worked for Ryanair.

Slowly: As you state yourself you have not worked for this company. Until you do, you don't really know what you are talking about.

On another note. Anyone been hearing rumours about the Irish government thinking of forcing Ryanair to contract all staff on Irish contracts?

[Say again s l o w l y]

d105, would you care to tell me exactly where I have said anything incorrect? I'd be interested to find out why I know nothing about this.

[widered]

D105 I have heard Eamon Gilmore on record as saying that if he is in the next government which is highly likely he will bring in legislation for mandatory union recognition among other issues for the employee i believe the issue of contracters is also on the table for them at least.
Some hope in a sea of despair...

[maverick777]

I have heard Eamon Gilmore on record as saying that if he is in the next government which is highly likely he will bring in legislation for mandatory union recognition among other issues for the employee i believe the issue of contracters is also on the table for them at least.
Some hope in a sea of despair...


Fine Gael also stated they would Scrap the ticket tax .... and it looks like some state assets may need to be sold off to the highest bidder! Maybe the Taj Mahal **** HEAP T2 and the DAA along with it!

Might bode well for Irish pilots & upgrades....Or possibly not..

Say again slowly:
Why don't pilots try to think like business people. Instead of just whinging about how certain practises are "unfair." Make a case for why things should change, don't just bleat.


I agree...but somehow... I feel that some will leave, some will grovel, bitch, moan and groan and remain on, and the rest, will disregard it all and likewise just stay put.. And the merry-go-round countinues.....

[d105]

Just heard tonight 2 newly upgraded captains moving to Cargolux.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

S A S

And at what social cost? These people, especially MOL, are the embodiment of capitalist greed.

Oh come on this is so unfair, FR do a lot of good work for charities eg the annual soft porn calendar and the incessantly annoying scratch cards that are forced down your throat on board.
Please note at least 1 penny from each calendar or scratch card wil go to a nominated golf course

Unreg 737

Ok forget the TR scenario, like it or not FR have a certain stigma attached to them regarding their "employment practices", from charging for submitting an application, uniforms, pens, water etc to carrying out LPCs, OPCs etc on days off. You and others were prepared to disregard these FACTS in order to get your arses in the RHS. Regardless of your wonderful pay and quality hours who in their right mind would think FR management would soften in their old age and improve t&c's over time? If anything it was more than likely they would use a sledge hammer to batter them down even further. This is in fact the case and probably it's time you accepted it as being part of it.

[jedy]

Ok so here we go.

Today's flight BRI-BGY 06:30 cacelled.

Reason : lack of flight deck

Already happening in January. Sit tight because it is going to be an interesting summer.

[Telstar]

Jedy

I think you should apologise to Ryanair for that remark. On the live flight info page it clearly states it is an ATC delay. A nine and a half hour delay on a domestic flight. Estimated arrival time 15.20z. All quite reasonable.

Repeat after me....

There is no flight crew shortage. Nobody is leaving. It's all under control. We are not worried. We haven't pushed people too far with our greed. Ryanair Pilots are the most under worked overpaid Pilots in Europe. DRINK the Kool-aid.....

[stansdead]

Chinese Cadets? Don't be daft. Don't you think the Chinese airlines need them?

The expansion is eye watering over there, only a mere dribble in FR.

FR can only hope tat lots don't leave, because there isn't a whole load of well financed, intellectually challenged, unregistered 737 type individuals left to rip off.

The Chickens are coming home to roost.

[Alpagueur320]

I would like to reply to the statement that some company like BA would not take guys coming from Ryanair:

If it were really the case, why invite them on the selections anyway???? It doesn't make sence to let people come over for the selections if you know beforehand you are gonna turn them down....

Now if nobody from Ryanair had been invited in the first place, that would have been a different story.... but it's not the case!

[Unregistered737]

The problem that FR is facing has nothing to do with the cadets ready to pay for a TR to get some time on a jet but has a lot more to do with the fact that once the people with any 'intelligence' have some hours behind them they try to leave before the get even more shafted....the stupid people (unlike myself) go for the command upgrade.

Stansdead you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder don't you....if your working for FR then you have come through the same route that I have so I don't know where animosity is coming from? Stop being so hypocritical! :ugh:

If you DON'T work for FR then what are you doing commenting on a FR thread?!

The problem is not these 'well financed, intellectually challenged, unregistered 737 type individuals' there are plenty with my common sense that decided that any terms and conditions are better than none at all! Its the fact that we have no captains and even fewer are going through the command process....as for PB's attrition rate I am curious to know what the rate is from BRK... any moron knows that you can make figures tell you what you want, all you need to do is look at the guy at the top of the fuel league!

As for TELSTAR

"There is no flight crew shortage. Nobody is leaving. It's all under control. We are not worried. We haven't pushed people too far with our greed. Ryanair Pilots are the most under worked overpaid Pilots in Europe. DRINK the Kool-aid....."

Erm people are leaving, its under control now but when captains in stn are working 80 - 90 hours at the moment what are we going to do when the fleet size doubles over the summer? You sound like the sort of person who would fall for the media spin that the management dishes out on a regular basis!

Bring on the summer schedule!

U737

[Tripitaka]

Whooooosh :}

[Telstar]

Unregistered737

I wish to agree with my honorable colleague: Whoosh!

I guess you prefer your sarcasm sliced a little thicker?

Also:

if your working for FR

It's you're. It's a contraction for you are. Have an awesome day!;)

[Tripitaka]

For any Ryanair management following this thread here's a quick tip on how to slow the hemorrhage:

A more transparent base transfer system. If people could see their names on a base list and monitor their progress it would encourage a lot more upgrades, along with convincing captains and FO's who are stuck away from home to stay with the company. This would only work if they didn't hear of new upgrades or direct entries usurping their place on the list. Oh and the monetary investment is minimal which I hear is one of MOL's recent stipulations.

Here's a quick tip on how to open the floodgates:

5/3

[McNulty]

A more transparent base transfer system. If people could see their names on a base list and monitor their progress it would encourage a lot more upgrades, along with convincing captains and FO's who are stuck away from home to stay with the company. This would only work if they didn't hear of new upgrades or direct entries usurping their place on the list. Oh and the monetary investment is minimal which I hear is one of MOL's recent stipulations.


Correct,

There are commuting contracts being handed out in Asia that give more days off at home per month than a 5-4 ryanair roster. These contracts also pay alot better and with better working conditions. 5-3 won't be faesable for them unless they introduce with it a proper and fair base transfer system, not a hope in hell.

[stansdead]

Unregistered 737,

Chip on my shoulder? When a greasy little Daddy's boy like you can offer me advice, I'll accept that I have a chip on my shoulder.

However, seeing as you're a 2 bit loser who doesn't know how to spell Command, let alone hold one, I'll be waiting a while.

Can you tell me where that 2.5% loan is available? Thought not.

Not that I need one, because unlike you, I've never paid for a rating and I have my Command. I have my own money, through not being a waster and a debtor.

Why comment on an FR thread? Well, why not? It's a free country where I'm sat.

Now run along and see what tosh you can dream up next. The only thing you can teach us all is how to get into unmanageable debt and then pretend you're smart. Jeeezus. What a clown you are.

[Unregistered737]

Thank you all for correcting my spelling never been my strong point!

Stansdead - Read post 300 just incase you can't find it here is a copy of what i said....

'As for finding a loan I dealt with RBS (before the recession!) and it was a student training loan which was 2% above base rate which = 2.5%...I can pass on the loan advisors number if you wish I am sure i can get a finders fee. '

It is a free country but why do you care what FR are doing? It would be incredibly naive (i looked that one up in the dictionary) to think that FR was the cause of degrading terms and conditions across the industry. I am presuming thats why your an FR hater?!

As for taking loans unfortunately it is a sign of the times....everyone my age has a loan whether that be from uni or other training. I however can pay off my loan quicker than your average uni graduate can pay theirs.

Just as an example....the cost for a medical degree is £35,000 for the tuition fees and £25,000 for the student loans (5 year degree!). Your starting salary is likely to be in the region of £29,000 and thats after another 2 years of specialised training.

Tosh....i think not!

as for '2 bit loser' - really that's what you've got? :hmm:

U737

[stansdead]

Unregistered 737,

You're not going to find any willing takers for your tales, a veritable parable of debt & misery, at least not amongst any right minded individual.

You said it all. BEFORE the recession....

There were lots of people doing lots of rash things, such as lending impressionable young fools large sums of money. Much of this rash lending has, of course, been well commented upon in the press in the intervening times.

There is no virtue whatsoever in saddling yourself with a mortgage sized debt, in order to jump the queue into the RHS.

One day you will realise your gross folly yourself. Then you'll pipe down a touch.

Until then, there will be plenty of people to remind you of it free of charge on here.

[Unregistered737]

Apart from joining the forces how do you become a pilot without forking out some cash then? :confused:

This goes back way before the recession. As of 9-11 all the major carriers ceased their scholarships and after that unless you want to spend 5/6/7 years working for nothing just to build up the hours to get that jet job what else is out there?

Oh and as for enjoying the years before the recession your no doubt sat in a nice house on your captains salary and enjoyed the benefits of the housing boom? Like all your posts your a bit hypocritical. :*

And as for blaming me (meaning ALL trainee pilots post 9-11) for the recession is just idiotic. In the eyes of a bank i believe we are a much safer bet than someone with a 110% mortgage!

Its business and my balance sheet is doing alright thank you.

[73addict]

I do love a good slanging match but if we could keep it about the thread and not air your various unfounded petty insults that would be fantastic. Inane comments about each other are really a thing for the playground don't you think!

End Rant :{

As per the rating argument, we live in a world where unfortunately that seems to be the way forward. I believe some have already broken it down as to the differing ways to go about it but the reality is that most are doing it: FR, EZY, ex XL, TCX, J2, Baby and Fly Be just to name a few. I am sure you can all add more to this list. I woul have loved to live in a world where you could be given a rating but alas such was the way when I completed my training!

To the thread, unfortunately IMO I think it will take a huge number of resignations/command upgrade rejections to make an impact on this bunch!

Enjoy anyway and happy days to all.

73 :ok:

[Callsign Kilo]

Now if nobody from Ryanair had been invited in the first place, that would have been a different story.... but it's not the case!

I know someone who has just sent PB the old cheers for the last 3 years but you can stick your job up your jacksy ta very much and all that. BA has offered him a position after their recent round of recruitment.

[16024]

Well done 73addict, for wrestling the thread back on track, and for keeping the tone civilised.
And Tripitaka is spot on: for minimal cost there are lots of ways to keep the pilots happy, particularly the imminent command upgrades, as these are the ones companies need to hang on to, and the ones most likely to leave.
Transparent basing policy is one.
And if 5/4 goes, exodus will be entirely the correct word.

[The Sandman]

In response to D105, my acct recently mentioned watch this space regards the government (read revenue commissioners) looking closely at Ryanair's contracting situation vis a vis Ireland tax.

[stansdead]

Unregistered 737,

I didn't blame you, or other pilots for the global recession. Can you point me to where I did? What I did say is that banks did things that were rash, pre recession, such as lending large sums of money to impressionable young fools.

"unless you want to spend 5/6/7 years working for nothing"......what are you doing now then? All that debt to service. You're working for the banks and FR shareholders only.

You seem to think that you're incredibly clever for loading yourself in debt and putting your ability to own a home, or save meaningfully back by 15 years. You're not.

You'll find many people in BA who spent 5/6/7 years "working for nothing" in order to get there. At your interview in February, I'd knock off some of your smug attitude and knuckle down.

As for hypocrisy. Why am I hypocritical? I didn't get in debt in order to fly. I've never been a flash Harry with a Porsche. I've saved and I've worked hard.

That's not hypocrisy. It's called not being dumb.

Good luck with your interview into BA. Are you going to devise a way to try and fast track their seniority system? But only in order not to waste 5/6/7 years being an FO?

[73addict]

stansdead, I am sure you are an amazing individual with the enviable experience of a seasoned pro! However, just be careful with your comments. To call people fools because they have done thing differently to you is a massive generalisation and grossly naive. I am sure that there are many on this site who trained post 9/11 when sponsorships did not exist or were incredibly sparse. UNLESS one is fortunate to have the bank of M and D then short of going down the debt route there was no other way. Yes you could have gone out to get a job to raise funds but how many years will that put you back? More than 5,6,7 I wager. As for the constant barrage for those who do have bank of M and D again WHY? Good luck to them, it doesn't make them any less qualified at the end or any less of a pilot!
It is quite simple this industry has and is surviving off of the fact that people are desperate to become an airline pilot, and given the investment to get your initial licence, are relying on the fact that people will be willing to go a bit further to fulfil their ambition.
Realistically with the theory of speculate to accumulate there are some good choices that can be made and have been made. For a young single wannabe the idea of short term debt to reap the rewards of a full career is not such a terrible thought.
I suggest you wind your neck back in and realise that difference does not mean foolishness or dumbness!!
All the best
73

[stansdead]

73Addict,

You're as naive and foolish as unregistered737 if you think getting circa £50 - 100k in debt is short term.

I suggest you wind your neck back in. I can say what I want on this subject.

I couldn't give a f?ck if people borrow money or not. Or at what rates. What annoys me, and many others is the view that 5/6/7 years in anything other than a jet is working for nothing and a waste of time.

The attitude of taking on huge debt in a gamble on a career in FR/Brookfield is reckless. It stinks of "I'm not waiting my turn" and has directly contributed to the rapid deterioration of conditions of employment in our profession. I pity you. You know no better.

The adage of a Doctor borrowing to fund his/her career does not add up either. They enjoy: permanent contracts/ sick pay/ final salary pension and a security of tenure.

What do you get for your £29k starting pay in FR? Err....£29k and nothing more.

Justify it all you want. It's just like buying a bigger TV than you can afford on credit. All part of the "I want it now" spoilt rotten generation.

You have much to learn.

[Tripitaka]

Can you guys start a new thread on the topic of debt so we can get this one back on track??!!:ugh:

[757_Driver]

I'm with stanstead on this one.
I worked another career for 15 years before becoming a pilot, I've got a house, a family and I'm now starting with BA in a few months. I don't have any training debt, and I'll bet that by the time you reach 40 you will still not be on the property or pension ladder because of the training debt, so your plan to get ahead by a few years, will actually put you back decades.
Interest rates are going to rocket in the next year or two - did anyone factor that into their figures? I'm sure a £100k unsecured debt at 3% is manageable. But what about at 5, 8, 10, 12, 15%? And what about when the new irish government decide you are all employees and tax you accordingly?
I'm not going to blame the woes of the world on ryanair crews, however it does hurt that the rest of us work for airlines that have to compete with a company that cuts its costs by ignoring the rules (little things like employment law, income tax etc).

[73addict]

HA thank you for proving my point stansdead. You know nothing of me or my career and yet you assume to pigeon hole me too. Again you jump to an assumption based on nothing. At no point have I said I work for FR, have 100K debt or do not own a home etc!!! What people chose to do in times of difficulty is their choice and what works for one won't work for another. LIFE!
I think it a little foolish to blame the entire company culture of FR on these cadets. There are many pilots from further afield eager to fill those slots and that is based on the salary on offer compared to what they will get in their own countries. T&C's have deteriorated in this country but that is due to a multitude of things especially supply and demand at the moment.

Back to thread
The article about flights not going due to crew shortages is this widespread now or just becoming an issue? Does anyone know what the actual attrition rate is?

[Telstar]

I do know that at my base, which is one of the larger bases, and at two of the other bases that I've been to, new CUs are not even keeping abreast of resignations. I've also been seeing an increase of walk offs, people not serving their notice period. This makes forecasting crewing numbers very difficult There is no incentive to leave on good terms with the no reentry policy.

Will we see aircraft grounded this summer with empty flight decks? Nah. A major problem for the flight deck community in FR is a lack of historical knowledge. Cast your minds back to winter 04/05. Futura, Eirjet and Titan to name but a few were operating flights because of the, ahem, "Boeing Machinist Strikes". There was a lack of crew because the -200 to -800 conversion process hitting the skids due to the legal dispute and clogging up the sim and training department. There were also lots of jobs around and FR were having trouble getting the numbers despite a number of incentives to entice Captains.

In fact, despite this background they were still managing to push down terms and conditions slowly but surely. This is a very determined employer. Who else would be ambitious enough to drive down salaries during a crew shortage!? But they did it. Part of the tool kit is their ability to coerce the IAA into giving licence validations, the only EU CAA to do so to my knowledge, effectively bypassing European licensing requirements/restrictions/burdens delete as appropriate. There was also even a time where they managed to persuade the government for work visas. Despite the posturing in the press there is a tremendous pressure not to be seen to impede one of the few so call success stories of the Irish economy. This opens up a whole new world of possibilities. There is always a pool of pilots somewhere in the world they can tap. Can't speak English? Not really a barrier.

If they have to they can steal guys away from other airlines by offering them a base they want at the expense of a guy who has served his time and has a transfer request in.

They will find a way. If the pilots have to pay for it that's just tough. No one wanted to get involved in a Union. This is the price of inaction. Hoping that this will result in a windfall payrise is delusional.

Someone earlier addressed a member of the management directly on this thread. You can be sure they read these threads. In one of the pay talks a very senior member of the board remarked on something he'd read on PPRuNe.

[go around flaps15]

Were Wizz Air involved with various pay to fly schemes?

Do low hour cadets pay for an Airbus type rating with Wizz?

Is a Ryanair type rating 29k?

[d105]

Telstar: I've found PPRuNe Forums - Professional Pilots Rumour Network (http://www.pprune.org) in the address history of quite a few computers at EMT. You can be sure they're following along very closely.

[Unregistered737]

Telstar -

Did Eirjet and Futura not go out of business? As for titan they are going to be busy with supplying relief flights for BA if the cabin crew don't get what they want (i am sure there is a thread on this so not going to air my opinions!) Thought they only has a couple of planes as well and with their 75's painted orange all summer think they will lack the planes to help.

Just as a side note - did one of the FR managers not move to sleezy and screw up their pilot requirements? maybe he was a MOL mole!?!?

Despite the management reading all these posts will it make any difference knowing that their work force is unhappy - probably not so a good time to try an leave me thinks.

U737

[enigmajet]

D105

Yes there are plenty of computers in EMT. Where are management based?
It sure aint EMT. I believe they have computers in DUB and STN too despite much cost cutting. HR are based in STN and Dub.
The people who use the computers in EMT are other line pilots doing re current training or cadets.
And even if it were TRE's or base Cpts, management pilots rarely, save the very few have any influence on the big decisions.

[Burgundy - Ron]

How many new cadets are FR getting each month?
Do these numbers cover what are leaving? or continue to flood them with more and more low hour guys and reduce the number of hours worked by each FO?

[Telstar]

Unregistered737,

The point is not about those airlines it's about being able to hire in extra lift if they really become stuck.

Just as a side note - did one of the FR managers not move to sleezy and screw up their pilot requirements? maybe he was a MOL mole!?!?

Alas, poor Warwick! I knew him well:

Ryanair case crash lands spectacularly in the high court (http://http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/ryanair-case-crash-lands-spectacularly-in-the-high-court-132456.html)

The judge found that this was one of two pieces of evidence from Mr Brady that "I consider to be false".

Glad to hear he's doing such a good job over at Easy. Hopefully now that he's graced aviation with his presence, gained "management skills", he'll bugger off and do something else. I doubt anyone would want him near their airline anymore.

[ryanairpilotSTN]

......................

[HighLow]

Interesting list , do me a favour, you must add 3 capt I know and also 5 first officers to that list who are also working their notice ... Some reason they don't appear on your "master list"

[Telstar]

ryanairpilotSTN

Well done. That's a much more factual post and looking at that list I can vouch for some of those. Maybe we can put an end to all the nonsense now?

As for Warwick, I'm sure he doesn't mind. You can't live by the sword and not expect to take a couple of swipes now and then.

Also interesting to imagine what, in the very near future, FR will look and feel like as a place of employment when this Rapid expansion stops. So many people have been born and raised in it in FR they've never known anything else. No more quick upgrades, base transfers will become even more difficult, the rotating door policy of employment coming to a slow. Interesting times ahead.

[ryanairpilotSTN]

Hi Highlow,

That is the correct data for people who have actually resigned. I have flown with pilots in Ryanair who were working their notice three years ago and are still in the crew room in STN!

Please publish the data for anyone else who you know is leaving and has resigned or PM and I will check against the list I was given.

[VJW]

Bit strange, no FR capt in MAD went to EK - I know a FO that did mind!

[sidtheesexist]

ryanairpilotSTN - very interesting and apparently well-informed post. I was under the impression that Ryan's business model was to a degree, based on continued expansion thereby enabling money to be made off the trade in due course of each new airframe??? I could be mistaken on this point. Also, with the expansion stopping, then a drastic reduction in opportunities for 'P2F ' wannabees results.........Whilst bad news for the wannabees with dosh, could this not, ultimately prove to be a very good thing for the industry as a whole? This large, constant demand for 'P2F' wannabees from such a major player has surely led to a great downwards pressure on all our Ts and Cs. I take great encouragement from your post, I hope it's not misplaced.

[jayc004]

Just out of interest, If people are saying that pilots in Italy, UK, and Spain are going to be made to go onto permanent contracts, and they will not allow bases to be stacked to the rafters with Brookfield pilots, does that not give the pilot community a huge opportunity to fight back?

Look at it this way, currently if you were employed as a new pilot in Ryanair as a First Officer in the last 4 years, you are Brookfield, as are most of the new Captain upgrades. Lets take a conservative number.
FO = 80%
Cpt = 40%

Now, most of those will be in europe on a 5 year contract. So if they are made by the local government to be full Ryanair employees, and they offer very bad terms and conditions, then all the Brookfield pilots say NO, and what happens?
I would say that even if there are 5 crews per aircraft, with the massive percentage of them being un-operational due to the fact they are contractor, means that there will not be enough crews to cover the Europe based flights.

Just a thought, because I know I would not accept some of the permanent contracts that are being handed out at the moment. I would rather be at home with my family UK and working an office job then sitting in a country I don't want to be in, working for a company I resent, paying out for accommodation in 2 places, doing duty hours I am not getting paid for AND getting paid less!, and wishing I was at home!

Just food for thought, but it seems to me that if Ryanair is made to put all the contractors onto full time contracts and they don't accept it, they will not be able to plug the holes that they leave in the schedule fast enough with full time guys.

[Whitstle_Blower]

I have heard on the jungle telegraph that things are starting to pick up massively in the industry, and especially contracting.

I know a number of agencies that are now specifically targeting Ryanair pilots in order to get 737 pilots in the far east and China.

Some of the contracts on offer at the moment are, or better then stated here, (and tell me how this compares to your command at FR and BRK).

250 P1
3000TT
US $160,000+ NET
Ranging from "8 weeks on - 4 weeks off" to "6 weeks on 3 weeks off"
80 hours per block (80+ = overtime)
Housing, medical, uniform paid.
Free eco flights home each block off

I hazard a guess that the Brookfield command salary, (I mean estimation of hours that you might or might not work), and most certainly the pitiful Ryanair contract does not compare to that, yet when the command does come along, then you will be working out of the base closest to your home, and end up doing something in the region of 7 on 2 off, (6 on 3 off if you can fly home after an early shift).
Of course, if you break the rules and the law and fly on the day you are operating to get to work on Jumpseat duty travel, and not declare it as FLIGHT duty hours for positioning before operating, then you might get another day at home.

I know where I would be going if I were a captain in Ryanair!

[Telstar]

ryanairpilotSTN

......................

Oh dear! "They" were watching closely after all..... I guess "they" weren't too happy about that. That management pole just got even greasier for you! :E

[frank booth]

Nothing has changed at ryr, it's goals are still the same, growth and profits, nothing else matters, and it will never will change, you did know that didn't you? Surely before buying the job you knew that?
So now you don't like being based away from home and you're gonna show em by leaving for Emirates and be......er farther away from home!
You see the virus that you helped to spread has eradicated the traditional
industry and their T&C's, that you are now so desperate to join.
Those T&C's were hard fought for over many years, with solid values that the most arrogant of posters on this thread dismiss and mock as old fashioned and out of date. Early Twenties, one type and nothing left to learn..........
The truth is there will never be an exodus big enough, and there will never be a collective will big enough to change anything. As an FO you have a shelf life, either upgrade on ever reducing pay or be gradually side lined. Take a look at the ryr thread in jobs and sponsorhip. 99 pages full of wannabes, all who would gladly tread you face down to scramble into your still warm seat. You know the sort don't you...

[FR1A]

The reality is that Airlines are no longer supported by the Tax Payer and have to make a profit for their share holders. You need to look at the big picture and not follow the heard in attacking FR pilots.

[enigmajet]

If management want to stem the tide.

Keep 5/4, it is on the Ryanair website as a recruitment tool so they know its a valuable style of roster that allows people to commute and have a reasonable life.
5/3 is very difficult to work with re commuting resulting in one day at home before launching off again.
Stop pretending that FR is well paid it aint, if you look at any other decent airline total packages, FR's is one of the worst paid gigs in the short haul jet market not to mention the good contracts on offer in the Mid and far East.

How about as already mentioned a transparent base transfer list.
We work hard, very hard we are very efficient pilots, a cursory glance at any airports CDA and tracking info will reveal that.
We have the lowest level bust rate in the industry. Yes good SOP's but good pilots too. we run a fuel league which is not really a safety tool and not all that fair but it can be assessed and judged that we try hard to do our bit.

I'm not a left wing nut looking for equal treatment with management, they make tough decisions and should, if successful be rewarded.
However we as pilots make tough decisions every day and are at the coal face doing it, not talking about doing it.

For any FR management bods reading consider below.

STG equivalent ₤
All captains €100,000
Line trainers €120,000
TRI €130,000
TRE €150,000

Second officers €40,000
First Officer €55,000
Senior First officer €70,000

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Frank Booth

Spot on buddy.

But try telling that to a FR SSTR cadet and they shoot you down in flames, they can not see that they are in part responsible for the conditions they so complain about now. They were all quite happy to be part of the Ryanair jigsaw. MOL and his cronies certainly did a good job in brainwashing them all as instead of them seeing themselves being bent over they see the forking out of $100k in training as the biggest bargain of their snotty nosed lives, without a care to what they have done to the industry as a whole in T&C's.

Too right FR pilot's get a bashing as they have pissed too many people off. AS Frank Booth rightly says, a lot of GOOD men worked hard for many years to get to where they were only for FR cadets to come along and unravel all the good work they achieved. Now they all want to leave and get the rewards of their forefathers. What a bunch of hypocrites.

[Unregistered737]

Did someone post a list of people leaving that I didn't see would be very interested in having a look at that see if I can maybe add to it?

FB and MOLG.....yawn!

The problem is not all these cadets coming in it's the fact that the people that are leaving are the ones the MOL is relying on to fill the LHS over the coming months. New cadets take 3/4 yrs before they can do that job I'm not worried about the newbies. I heard MOL was very angry to hear that all the FO's were leaving after what he had done for them :ok:.....why do you think he told the papers that he thinks an FO's job can be done by cabin crew. I think that was his way of saying :mad: you back.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

FB and MOLG.....yawn!

See what I mean, totally oblivious and total denial :ugh:

[go around flaps15]

Why arn't you ever on the CTC thread where there were cadets declaring themselves bankrupt. They were going into Easyjet working for a fraction of the money that the new cadets at FR are on.

Tis all a bit anti FR with you.

[maverick777]

Ryanair Exodus - whats the plan..........

The plan is for FOs, CPs, Engineers, Cabin Crew, to move on to a """better""" airline ...if they can...and if it suits them... and if they can make it work for themselves......

For God sakes, its about :mad: time that people moved on from the little box or bubble (call it what you want) that ryanair has created and the endless .............. endlesss ......... fight / debate / debacle about SSTRs; cadets; PTF; that has continued for many long years and still continues here on PPRUNE today, and frankly has not changed the intentions of many guys just out of flight school searching for a job who are willing to pay for a job, or the beliefs and attitudes of the lads/ladies who are far longer in this career....

We're all in the same boat so why not help eachother get out of the situations rather than persistant reminding of how people feel others' decisions have been!?

There are jobs out there.. Think about the rest of the world with bigger eyes and a more open mind.

Here's a start....

Pilots - work with us - flydubai (http://flydubai.com/english/work-with-us/pilots.aspx)

ppjn.com

pilotcareercentre.com

[Damianik]

Flydubai...

if i had to fly a low cost operations , 4 sector day on a 737NG, i would rather do that in Europe and not flying nights DUBAI to indian subcontinent to feed Emirates, while living in the sandpit and home everynight, away from home.

nope.

[Tripitaka]

Keep the thread on track....don't feed the trolls :=

[Unregistered737]

The fact that this thread in 6 months has had over 340 replies and 90,000 views it's says a lot about how many people are wanting to leave - that works out at over 480 views a day.....much like ryanairs fuel figures the facts don't lie!

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

.much like ryanairs fuel figures the facts don't lie!Much like the fact that as an airline FR have been the butt of countless jokes, emails, videos, songs, customer complaints, staff complaints etc (probably more than any other airline since Dan Air) and you wonder why the pilots for such an airline take such a bad rep?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

much like ryanairs fuel figures the facts don't lie!

Hedged or not?

:D

[scoteros]

Dear Damianik,

You must be badly informed about the Flydubai rostering...:confused:

If it is true that there are some 4 sectors days or nights ( with 45 to 60 minutes turnaround ) , it is also true that you will get it in average once or maybe ( if unlucky ) twice a month.:ok:

By the way none of them are to the Indian subcontinent but to Kuwait , Muscat , Doha and Bahrain... so far from what you were saying.

Most of the other flights are 2 sectors of minimum 2,5 to 4,5 hours each with free food and drinks and you will not get 6 sectors day in bad weather with 25 minutes turnaround like in some nice company in Europe.;)

So before talking about another company try to get the right information and by the way you don't have to join us , you are free to stay where you are.:\

Best regards,

[Shadowsonclouds]

Very interesting that the list has gone! From what I've heard seemed dead on when I read it. I have to agree I think they'll have it covered, but not comfortably! Probably why we haven't received a 'reality check' memo this year? Currently a lot of my mates are doing a lot of stbys, so I suppose that indicates surplus, but how far...no idea.

As far as career goes, I had a choice of going to FlyBe and going onto a prop and being bonded for 3 yrs or putting money upfront and getting Jet hours. In terms of options now available I would make the same choice all over again.

I like so many things here, it's a shame the negative things will never be turned over. Could be a really great place to work. Shame.

There are people leaving though, just not enough to worry them, in my opinion.

[widered]

There seems to be a sense of thought that everything is hopeless and that we will always be under the thumb at Ryanair and there will never be a union.
I have to disagree, there is people there willing to do some work and change the way we are treated.
In response to a post addressed at any management reading this website to change our conditions, I have not seen such a futile response before.The idea that management would listen to that is ridiculous.

Just to remind you management are there to provide profit for the company at the expense of our rivals and of course its workers, its the nature of the beast,If they don't get there projected profits for the company they don't get there personel bonuses.

So like the easy jet pilots learned, the only way stop the sinking day in day of your conditions is to start the process for unionsation. The process for recognition will come again and since it has not succeded ask yourself what has changed,nothing, still the same agressive business model attacking employees conditions among other, so ask yourself what have we got to loose from recognition.

Absolutely nothing and everything to gain.:ok:

[16024]

Widered: Maybe I misunderstood your post, but you seem to be arguing with yourself. Nothing has changed since recognition was last tried, but there is nothing to lose by trying again?
Things have certainly changed. The "if you don't like it :mad: off" attitude was a luxury provided by the constant supply of pilots when airlines were going bust every few weeks. That is not happening at the moment.
There will be over 1000 good jobs to be had out east/ middle east over the next few years for those that want that life. Any airline who wishes to employ good people in Europe, rather than scraping the barrel for misfits, will have to offer reasonable T&C's. Nobody expects the return of the gentlemans' flying club era but those days were gone by the 90's when I was doing my SSTR. And the same arguments were raging even then about the unfairness of having to "buy" a job.
Incidentally I handed over my hard earned wonga for thier, admittedly excellent training to a little outfit called British Midland. The company formerly known as BMI, which is the company formerly known as British Midland (!). Not really a loco...
A change gonna come.

[stansdead]

The topic is, realistically, are FR (or anyone else) for that matter losing huge amounts of pilots.

I say no they're not. Too many people willing to pay.....to fly:ugh: or whatever we call it.

[go around flaps15]

Fair point. I would tend to agree with you. Imagine that.

[stansdead]

Yeah. Weird...

Hopefully, one day the regulations may change. But I doubt it.

It would be interesting to analyse, say, FR's accounts to see just how much (if any) financial gain they book from such courses.

[irishpilot1990]

@ stansdead rather an unusual post you make about financial gain?!?!:confused:

put it this way 250 new pilots this year and last year!

500 x 27,500= 13,750,000 euros!! or practically 7 million a year!

Factor in at this stage i guess they own most of the simulators and the instructors are 99% of their own so costs are minimal. Some of the simulators are not very new so I am sure they have paid for themselves already(a few times :8).

[Whitstle_Blower]

Some of the simulators are not very new so I am sure they have paid for themselves already(a few times )

I think this should be edited to read

"paid for by Brookfield pilots and the deduction of €4.5 per hour" :}

[fastidious bob]

Exodus, not so sure. They will be many leaving this year but not enough to bring the operation to a grinding halt.

My prediction for the next 5 years are as follows.

1) The biggest issue is the Irish government. Within 12 months I predict the government will be chasing Ryanair for N.I contributions and make the vast majority of Pilots employees.
2) The European Commission will finally allow Ryanair to increase its share in Aer Lingus from 29% to the majority shareholder.
3) Once The take over of Aer Lingus is completed and expansion stops, Mr oleary and the bulk of his management team will exit the airline (Ever business/man has an exit strategy).
4) The airline will have some form of union recognition.

Ryanair will be where easyjet is now in five years. The majority of Pilots will be employed with a form of union recognition. Ryanair's business model is slowly evolving. The company in the near future will be relying a lot less on airport subsidies due to the lack of grants being awarded to airports from local government, and relying a lot more on profits from ticket sales. In order to charge a premium more flights will be scheduled into larger airports.

If you can put up with the politics and the aggressive management style now, you my reap the rewards later.

FB

[smith]

The reality is that Airlines are no longer supported by the Tax Payer and have to make a profit for their share holders. You need to look at the big picture and not follow the heard in attacking FR pilots.

How many times have FR taken local government grants (paid for by the tax-payers of various countries across Europe) to move into an Airport??

Just accept what MOLG says, FR is an airline of ridicule with jokes, funny emails, spoof youtube videos and even a song made up about them. Can you name another airline that gets this ridicule in this day, both from crew and passengers. The've even had multiple tv documentaries made about them with regard to their employment practices.

Yes I know you are all going to tell me that MOL thrives on the "all publicity is good publicity", but the amount of -ve publicity for an airline so young is astonishing, yet most FR pilots are oblivious to the mess that has been created, similar to Berlin in the 1940's, they knew what they were doing was wrong but went along with it anyway.

To MOL bad publicity is good publicity, but to your working class Joe (the market loco's have opened flying up to) tales of stewardesses flying planes, b*** jobs in first class, standing on the plane and paying to take a leak just won't wash with passengers in the long run.

Those of you who say you don't agree with this are talking brown.

Yes make your exodus plan. But remember you were the ones that helped create the mess you so despise.

[irishpilot1990]

@whistle blower... i tend to think of my real wage as x-5 euro..and pretend that deduction does not happen:E

fastidious bob.... hope you are right but by god is that a very positive view of things( while very much a possibilty at the same time). Aviation business changes over night.

[VJW]

SMITH comparing FR pilots to Berlin in 1940 is talking brown!

[PPHOS058]

Hi there everybody

2 points to make.

Firstly will you all stop having a go at guys who have paid for their type rating with FR. Yes I did it. There was no option! I have been flying professionally for years, I served my time etc and had a nice job lined up and bang the credit crunch, bye bye job. The only place hiring was FR. And after doing all sorts of work flying and non flying to scratch out a living for a year working for FR is a lot better than all of them despite the crap T's&C's. Flying schools and small local companies pay less than the minimum wage for god sake. What would you want me to have done, stay working on a building site because I wouldn't lower myself to work for FR!

Secondly and more to the point of the thread, I have heard lots of guys going to the sand box, lots of people disappearing for interviews and waiting to hear back. How much effect this will have on FR management is anybodies guess but I would not count on the steady stream of young guys fresh out of flying school to replace them. Yes there is a back log of guys at the moment but banks are not lending. Unless your folks are loaded then where do you get £60k ish for your licence and another £25k for a type rating. Not a bank that is for sure.

[jimsmitty01]

'1) The biggest issue is the Irish government. Within 12 months I predict the government will be chasing Ryanair for N.I contributions and make the vast majority of Pilots employees.'

- I think the Irish government is happy and approved the current situation, as all new employees at FR (contractors) pay their income tax in IRL. I think that if we were to become employees, our tax status would change.

- Spoke to a few Capts, and they would much prefer paying their tax in their home country due to the high rate they are on now in IRL.

- Obviously because the TR is offsetting tax for new guys its not so bad for the first few years.

Contracts for FO's are 5 years. So I don't see things changing any time soon.

But we'll see!

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Pphoso52

I don't think your pathetic pleas to stop dissing FR and it's pilots is going to cut the mustard.

There are always going to be people like Me FR bashing on this site.

Deal with it buddy, your stupid post ain't gonna make one iota of a difference!!!

Did you really think what you wrote would change anyone's mind about FR?

Grow up!!!!!

[go around flaps15]

Grow up?

Rich.

[warpspeedmrsulu]

MOLG, you can bash FR on this site all you like, or its pilots.
You're too thick to see the bigger picture here.

I don't travel with FR because the product is not what i want as a passenger. I do fly for them, yes, but i'll probably leave at some stage. Maybe to go back to my old profession, maybe not. As for you MOLG, i worry for you. It seems you want someone else to solve your problems and believe the world owes you a living.

Do you want to know why, honestly, i've come into professional flying? Its because it paid more than my previous profession. Yes, it really is that simple - that, and the fact that i've loved flying since i was in short trousers. Would you have been prepared to compensate me to stay where i was? No, i somehow thought not.

However, now i'm doing the job, who can blame me for looking around to see if i can do better elsewhere? As for low cost trips to the costa - let the market decide whether it lives or dies, i genuinely don't care - i trust the public and the oil cartels to decide. Your pretense that theres some kind of global union of piloting right and wrong is pathetic.

The strange thing is in all this, that many of the people who love flying the most and have had to fight the hardest to do this job are the children of a lesser god in lo co land... Funny old world.
But as always, you do have to laugh ;)

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Ok, I think we can agree to disagree.

FR SSTR pilot's think that their chosen career path is good for them personally.

The FR bashers think that it is bad for aviation as a whole.

I guess we should just leave it at that. We probably will never reach common ground. :ok:

[matrix777]

What a great thread.

It's amazing to see how SSTR pilots always try to justify their pay to fly decision.

Anyone who fly's for Ryanair should have their medical revoked because they clearly need psychological treatment; completely out of their mind paying 30k + to fly for an airline that treats pilots as subordinates.

Correct me if I'm wrong but work is something an employee gets paid for, not the other way around! Have any of yee SSTR's ever asked yourselves what the passengers in the back of the plane would really think of yee if it was announced to them that the pilots flying the aircraft each paid 30k for the seat on the aircraft and also paid for their pilots uniform. They would laugh their asses off at yeer pure stupidity!

The truth is, that the only certainty that exists for Ryanair pilots is that when retirement comes around they will be easy to identify. Long retired but still hanging around in their pilot uniforms the ass of it thread bare from wear! Contrast this with MOL and his management team living it up on their vast wealth and fat pensions all at the expense of their paying staff.

[YYZ]

And the entire staff at FR bow to your superior knowledge and intellect and pray for forgiveness.

YYZ

[Mikehotel152]

Correct me if I'm wrong but work is something an employee gets paid for, not the other way around!

I earned €35,000 after tax in my first 12 months at FR. In anyone's books that is not contrary to the basic principle of 'employment' to which you refer and is preferable to unemployment.

and also paid for their pilots uniform

Small change and tax deductable. In the 5 years I worked in another industry I bought 2 new suits a year and lunch each day out of my taxed income. Free uniforms and food? I would advise people to join the Air Force if those are their primary criteria for a job.

The FR bashers think that it is bad for aviation as a whole.

Everybody agrees with that statement but the industry has already evolved. Do you think that the subsidised aviation industry of the past could hope to survive into the 21st Century? A state subsidised travel service for the monied classes that rewarded pilots in the postwar era with generous terms and conditions surviving in the iPad world like an aerial Gentleman's Club? FR and others brought airline travel to the masses. Terms and conditions for pilots have rationalised. Get used to it.


I stand by my earlier comments about the 'exodus' of pilots out of FR.

[Mikehotel152]

All true Vexed, but there are few TP jobs around. None when I finished training.

[as17]

Quite right Vexed, it would not be possible for all the pilots in FR to be working in flybe/Scotair etc instead. Anyone blaming the new guys for degrading T&Cs- I would probably guess that you have forgotten what it is like to be unemployed and with £60000 worth of debt as you sit there in the cockpit of your 777 drinking tea and doing the Times crossword.

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

All very well and good about doctors paying $200k for the training in the USA but last time I looked, Ryanair were flying out of European airports.

In Scotland at least, and some of the Scandy countries there are are no tuition fees and medical grads usually leave with very little debt.

Yes I know a small turboprop operation can not "hire" on the scale of FR however you seem to forget that if everyone had put their foot down and said NO to SSTR the airlines would have no option than to provide the training for their cadets if they wanted their airline to grow.

Unfortunately it was FR who were the most public about these schemes and what started as a trickle of SSTR cadets soon became a flood in the FR era.

Now what I cant't get round is now all you guys that have bought your way into the RHS you are complaining about the T&C's you have to work under, if in your mind this is a different era of flying with budgetary constraints and SSTR the norm, then consequently in that case six sector days, 35min turnarounds, unstable roster, inconsistant basing policy, unscrupulous management etc etc ad nauseum, should also be the norm in this cost conscious industry.

Realistically all the people bitching about working for FR, or should I say Brookfield Accountancy Firm, were a cog in the wheel that produced these so called T&C's. So my point is, you helped create this situation, you went in with your eyes open, you paid $250 to submit an application, so stop complaining about it, as you so rightly say the industry has changed and **** T&C's go hand in hand with SSTR.:=

[Mikehotel152]

Ah, MOLG, so you describe recently recruited FR pilots as 'cogs' yet maintain a derisory attitude towards us. I suggest you start criticising and attacking the driving engine behind the changes, not some of the victims. I suggest you contact your namesake and all those pilots at 'established' airlines who have acquiesced in the changes.

Find me a pilot at any airline who doesn't moan about some aspect of his job. It's in the nature of the beast to complain, in every industry...

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Vexed.

I think the FR bashing is totally relevant to this thread as as has been discussed, you entered with reduced t&c's and your exodus plan is because of these reduced t&c's, a bit of hypocrisy there. Also the old fashioned Ba bond saw you pay nothing and get normal salary. If you left within 3 years you had to pay what you owed.

Mike hotel

I referred to you as cogs in the downfall of t&c's not cogs in an airline operation, so indeed it was derisory.

As I say we are all going to disagree in this, I think you sold your soul for personal gratification, you lot think it is the best thing you ever did yet are on here Bitching about how you are being treated by management. The cockrell has definitely come home to roost :ok:

[73addict]

It is amazing we are still arguing about whose fault the current T&C's are along with the nature of those individuals who took on this enormous debt. We can all agree to disagree on various issues around these points but the key is there will never be a shortage of people willing to join the SSTR. FR is a company that anyone joins or should join with their eyes fully open and a clear goal in mind. Whatever your opinions about your treatment you cannot complain having signed up to it. But you can have a plan to do something about it, like many are. I personally have a good friend who did the SSTR thing and spent 3 years in FR before moving to Emirates on the 777. I would say that it worked out for him perfectly. He got what he needed from FR and had an exit strategy which he followed through. Now he can relax in a company he wanted to be in and reap the rewards. Of course this is not for everyone but one example of using the system.
And yes no matter where we are we will always complain about something as was alluded to earlier it is our nature. Combine that with experience and a little perspective and, at least some of, the complaining should slowly subside. For everyone complaining remember all those made unemployed during the recession with no severance of any kind. Now complain about your pay and multi sector days!!!! Many would bite you arm off to be where you are!
WHOOOOOOOOSAAAAAAAAH! :p

[Mikehotel152]

I referred to you as cogs in the downfall of t&c's not cogs in an airline operation, so indeed it was derisory.

That's merely semantics bearing in mind we are all suffering and none of us actually started the trend.

I think you sold your soul for personal gratification

You would have done exactly the same thing in my position.

[fastidious bob]

Can we stick to the thread please. All this Ryanair bashing is very boring!

[Bokkenrijder]

Well, 21 pages later, I think it's safe to say that there is no plan. Most wannabe's/newbies are still in love with MOL, and the more seasoned participants are still wondering whether to trade in their Eastern European base for a Middle Eastern base. :\

Now in the mean time, everybody make a queue behind MichaelOLearyGenius to pay for your next Tupolev/Ilyushin SSTR, as the totally desperate Dear Pikey Leader is trying to play hardball with Boeing! :8

Ryanair mulls Russian and Chinese aircraft. (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/01/352596/ryanair-mulls-russian-and-chinese-aircraft.html)

:p

[JW411]

Quite frankly, anyone who is planning a future in the Middle East right now should seriously be indulging in a serious bit of re-considering.

Been there, seen it, got the T-shirt.

[eagerbeaver1]

JW411

Expand please, I have an interview in two weeks and would be interested to hear you opinion. PM if you wish.

[matrix777]

Vexed in response.

So are you telling me that you are comparing Ryanair SSTR pilots to people who save lives for a living? Doctors help people where as SSTR's are only interested in helping themselves at the expense of everybody else.

How apt that Ryanair SSTR pilots are now whinging about their terms and conditions. The actions of SSTR's have placed aviation as a career in the gutter not just for pilots but all connected aviation roles be it cabin crew, operations or maintenance.

As the saying goes "United we Stand, Divided we fall" and this is exactly the situation that now exists.

SSTR's are the type of people that pass the decent hard working on a picket line to save their own skins. They think of no one else but themselves! :sad:

[AirSpeedLow]

eagerbeaver1

Read the Middle East forum, there's plenty there to keep you busy!!

I've got loads of friends out there and non of them feel that way. They have all had experience in the loco sector and non of them have regretted the move! One was a experienced captain too!

I would say have a look when you're out there, you will see the difference!

I've accepted a place on the 777 course and I may not love it but I find it hard to believe that I will be able to dislike a flying job as much as I dislike my current one!!

[eagerbeaver1]

I have read the middle east forum extensively. I am always interested to hear peoples opinions and experiences.

I am a current Loco captain and I must say if the base I work wasn't within 30 miles of my home I would have resigned years ago.

[YYZ]

I am the same as ASL, Just accepted the sand and leaving a LoCo soon, I have looked into it extensively and I have friends there, good and bad, but the general feeling seems better than where i am at the moment?

Guess i will not really know until i'm in the thick of it, i'm looking forward to it all!

With a new job comes new experiences & challenges, stops you getting stuck in rut, eh?

[JW411]

eagerbeaver1:

I was merely commenting upon the current political state of the Middle East where things seem to be going along the lines of cascading bus bars on a Britannia!

[brakedwell]

I thought this was a moaning about Ryanair thread, not rubbishing the Whimpering Giant. :)

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

Vexed

MOLG - "Also the old fashioned Ba bond saw you pay nothing and get normal salary. If you left within 3 years you had to pay what you owed."

Not so. There was a lower payscale for CADETS for the three years.

Yes this was the deal the the CADETS got, full fATPL funded and then a reduced salary.

What I was talking about was the Type Rating bond. Nothing to pay and only lose money if you leave within 3 years.

Also, yes I know nothing of your circumstances but I refer in my posts to SSTR's and "most FR Pilots".

[Sciolistes]

The industry isn't in demise. More passengers, more aircraft, more routes, etc, etc. There is no way tha the airframers, suppliers, engineers, technologists, general avaition staff and previously untouched regions would agree the industry is in demise. The only group who have been significantly and negatively affected are the air crew and mainly the pilots. They were at the top of the heap and with the inevitible efficiencies and improvements in safety the only way is down.

How people desperate to be pilots can complain at an industry whose growth is meteoric, has opened up its recruitmet to all comers is not really rational. The business model for offering all these jobs requires the elimination of costs. Anyway, how many of us could have afforded or had the opportunity prior to JAA?

SSTR is an undesirable consequence. The only way to avoid it is to be good enough to be chosen for a cadetship when the times are good. Not too dissimilar to the old days I'll wager.

[beernice]

From RTE news on the aer Lingus dispute
-"Cabin crew will be restored to normal duties and payroll pending the outcome of a binding LRC arbitration.

IMPACT will suspend industrial action pending that outcome, which the union says is expected soon.

Aer Lingus says it made concessions on issues relating to the quality of life of staff, including the timing of meals, and time off."


Take that Mick!!! To spite supplying aircraft to Aer Lingus "at below market rates" it looks like your new best friends in Aer Lingus management have caved in.
Just goes to show what a union when properly run and organised can achieve. Any airline including FR cannot afford to have billions in assets sitting on the ground not earning money. FR pilots take note, the cabiin crew in Aer Lingus have taken on their management and Mick and still won!!
We would have to strike and Mick will fight. But how long can he survive with his aircraft on the ground? 1 month, 2 months? and over the summer???
So we would not be paid for a few months. Not a major issue for BRK, hours will be made up anyway, as for FR contract guys, just consider it " compulsory unpaid leave". Remember that little gem from last Year?
I read in one of the posts that we will not strike or join a union because noone will make a stand and stick their head up. We dont need to stick our heads up, we have the internet!! Anyone know how to set up a web site that is not attached to a union and cannot be subject to legal attack by Mick?
Its up to us!!

[scoteros]

Dear Beernice,

This website is already there for several years. REPA - Ryanair European Pilots' Association (http://WWW.REPAWEB.ORG)...

But we never achieve even one day of strike...

[wayupthere]

What's all this moaning about the "bank of mum and dad"?
Before SSTRs etc the only way into most airlines (unless your country has a airforce worth speaking of) was if you had a relative already in there, has this changed? Not at all! When I finished training 10 of us were put forward for 4 interviews with our countries legacy carrier, 3 got called, the 4th interview disappeared and surprise of surprises the 3 called had relatives in the company.
Before anyone starts I paid my own way through training while working in my old profession!
So SSTRs are a disgrace and T&Cs are falling, at least the guys in these companies (not just RYR MOLG) are doing something, unlike the guys who were around when all this started...

[widered]

With reference to the base changes it wont and doesnt matter wat you say.
I heard that they have a policy of not letting everyone go to there base of choice it is because in the event of a base closure only half the people will be discontent.what sort of twisted logic is that.this was apparently said at a base captains meeting.
For me there is no doubt Ryanair management have a policy of keeping there workforce subdued.
Vexed good to hear someone who agrees.
Is it too much to ask for job stability, pension since we are the main cost reducing part of the company,I dont think so if we dont act as a generation now your children will ask you what did you did about these conditions what will you tell them ?

[HidekiTojo]

Is it just me or would anyone else of punched said senior manager in face and happily suffered the consequences?!

[maverick777]

1 captain and 4 FOs are leaving the Dublin base.

[peba]

best of luck to everybody leaving ryanair,hope you now start to enjoy the career you choose.
for those left in ryanair,STOP DOING CDA'S etc,who cares about a letter for poor fuel burn.start hitting there pockets with extra fuel burn.stop saving even 100 kgs every flight.that will add up.
call in a "blue flu" for engineers.everybody does it for the same week,means big delays,hit back at there selling points,on-time etc.you dont have to strike,just think of ways to fight back while still playing by the book!
best of luck you guys.

Let the games begin!!

[jester42]

PPRuNe

Professional?

Not with ridiculous posts like that. Is it half term already?

It really is time that this site is 'read only' for those that pretend to be a licence holder.

[dannyalliga]

4 Captains left at my base in the last few months, quite a few senior F/O's have interviews lined up as we speak (I know one who is undergoing his command upgrade and studying for the EK interview at the same time) and there are quite a few people that I heard of leaving from other bases too.
Phonecalls from crewcontrol asking people to work on days off are more and more common.

jester42,
begging for higher levels and for shortcuts does not define a professional pilot.
Receiving a letter from management stating that you are at the bottom of the fuel league and that you should review the company SOP's does not define a professional airline.

[irishpilot1990]

For a long time there has been rumours of guys moving which i failed to see. However now it seems that the first few have left everyone else is waking up. I didnt believe an exodus would start, just a few small irrelavant moves.But this week alone I have seen first hand the exodus really beginning to kick off.

Seems the few DUB FO on the move have 2500+ hours, these are the guys leaving that are going to wake Ryr up.They need every guy for command upgrade they can get in the next 24 months. I know of several guys personally who have A.L, B.A and emirates interviews in the next month.

Had one Captain jumpseat this week, 6 months he has been a Captain and is off now to a cargo company.After 5 years in the company all he got from mangement was "where are you going?" ... followed by "ok grand."
This indicates Ryr are not aware of the number who are gearing up for a move, or that they are ready for it. With aircraft arriving in 2s and 3s from Seattle, Captains going east and senior FO saying no thanks to upgrade courses I can't see how they are ready!(unless they plan on DEC again, and who would go to them when there appears to be options now).

[jimsmitty01]

I heard that they have a policy of not letting everyone go to there base of choice it is because in the event of a base closure only half the people will be discontent.what sort of twisted logic is that.this was apparently said at a base captains meeting.

Its called divide and conquer!!

Its a bit hard to conjure up ideas of industrial action when we are all scattered around the far corners of Europe on different patterns / shifts.

I think this tactic has been successfully deployed for many years now!

[737 Jockey]

Proof of one more Capt. leaving (bottom of article)...

An off-duty airline pilot drunkenly smashed a sports car into a brick wall at speed, a court heard. (http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/news/Drunk-duty-pilot-smashed-car-wall/article-3199114-detail/article.html)

Good job he did it in the UK, in Dubai he would be in serious sheet man!

:eek:

[lear999wa]

He was the ex base captain of BDS AND REU.

WOW

[WallyWumpus]

Lear,

Perhaps you would be graceful to a curious request from me, and explain the significance of "WOW" in your post?

[silverhawk]

Purely heresay and speculation, but I hear that RYR are considering lowering the command minima to 2000 P1 to try and retain crew.

[VJW]

I'm not sure what you mean 2000 hrs PIC for command minima to retain crew. I presume you're talking about FO's upgrading, and if so, none of us have 2000 hrs PIC- seeing as though most joined as cadets with 100 hrs PIC from CPL days. PIC is the captain, so I have the same PIC now as I did when I joined (bar a few c150 hrs).

Re 737 Jockey's comment and the link provided I found this funny on that report...

He was sentenced to a 12-month jail sentence, suspended for one year, and was ordered to do 100 hours of unpaid work.

RYR must love that. Is that 100 hrs duty or 100 hrs block he must do for free?? :E

[d105]

Haha that last line had me laughing VJW! :)

I would imagine he means 2000 hours jet? I wouldn't pay too much attention to such gossip. The entire CU training program revolves around the cadet doing at least 3000 hours. At this point the pass/fail ratio is just about 50%. Lowering the hours requirement to 2000 hours would make that ratio drop I figure.

[gb346]

Many years ago a Major Airline decided to unilaterally change the T's & C's of the pilot body.

The pilot body had a weak union at the time and after some negotiations, the pilots were sent on their merry way and told to do their job and stop complaining. The majority of the pilots took it upon themselves to make a stand and decided to begin an "unofficial protest". All flights for a month flew full letdowns (this was a while back - not like todays controlled airspace), did not ask for shorter routings and did not make any effort to rush the operation along. On time departures dropped, the fuel bill rocketed and schedules were disrupted as Captains refused to use "Captains Discretion".

After that one month of action, the Airline management backed down and re-instated the original T's & C's. From that day on, the pilots held the power and subsequently have grown into a powerful force in the airline. It is now one of the best paid airlines in the world with fair yet productive work schedules.

Each airline is different but the point I am trying to make is this :

The power lies with the Captains (I am not one so not trying to degrade the importance of the F/O) - they control the efficiency of the entire airline operation and with their effort, you could start to chip away at the block and start making a difference.

[d105]

New numbers being churned out by the gossip mill today.

Approximate demand for captains for the next flying year April 2011 - April 2012 is 400. Queued CU's supposed to be nearly 180. Currently empty slots supposed to be nearly 220.

Those were the latest numbers I picked up from colleagues. Not sure where they come from or if they're anywhere near accurate though.

[Omar_Baba]

I had been given a figure of 275 shortage of captains for the summer, but other jungle drums have all had figures above 200...... either way its a shortage.

[JW411]

Don't you read the newspapers? We are not allowed to say "jungle drums" any more in our so-called free speech society.

[16024]

Hmm. Problem I have with the whole "civil disobedience" thing is that we are all, above all commercial pilots, professional pilots, all that stuff.
I can't be the only one who gets more of a buzz out of closing the throttles (sorrry FTLs) at 120 miles, and opening them up, on the bug at 500', than dragging it in, thinking "this will stick it to them".
It would just be nice to have that recognised now and again, not just by the fuel league bollox ( sponsored by Tippex? ).
The management of so many companies should realise the gift they receive via dedicated workers, and I include CC, engineers, dispatchers etc. and stop regarding us as a necessary inconvenience come payday.
Back to thread: where are 200 (or 240, or 275) captains going to appear from by june, fuf hucks sake!! Most of the CU candidates at my base are saying they aren't interested, if it means a bond, a paycut, 5/3, and living on a desert island.
Liking the community service thing. Takes some nerve to give a skyline maximum beans with a skinful. Hope it wasn't a GTR. That rattling noise wasn't just the dry clutch, then....

[Damianik]

Answer could be taking senior FO from outside, ex or other company's, ready for command in 3 months. That was done years back.
Could be...

[16024]

Could be.
That may not be entirely a bad thing, as a reasonable contract would need to be offered to tempt poeple away from the desert, plus it would break the chain of F/O-alike cadets only chasing a fast track, plus it would show some flexibility and pilot market responsiveness (is that a word?), and open up the market for eperienced SFOs.
On the other hand it would be a blow to the experienced SFOs holding out for a better deal.
There aren't any magic answers, as the flamers have shown when they criticise, but not constructively...

[OutsideCAS]

As i said in an earlier post, have heard management at RYR are getting seriously worried now by the numbers believed to be looking to jump elsewhere - looks like chaos looming - but much better news for pilots everywhere as a rapid change of offerings will be on the cards. Looks like RYR management are about to feel the wrath.

[Damianik]

They need to change a policy...they are expert in that!

[MrHorgy]

16024,

Yes it would. While your suggestion that new guys will drive up T&C's is to be applauded, any better terms will not be implemented across the board. Look at the new cadets who come via brookfield at the moment, on less salary.

Bringing in DE pilots is what blocks the bases people want. I was told of a very plausible story of a guy from a UK base that got his command and was sent away to MAD or somewhere, even though there was a vacancy at his home base. The reason he didn't get it was cited as "Well, sorry, but it's been promised to a DEC coming from bmibaby".

When Ryanair has a more transparent basing policy and a list we can SEE that shows when we might get what base we want, i'm sure FO's will start to raise their hands to command again. As it stands, a ballpark figure of 2 years to get back to your family while you toil on 5/3 on the other side of Europe is not really good enough from an operator that has over 250 aircraft.

[megustalavida]

"bye bye RYANAIR ..." :D:D:D:D

well, will greedy management learn of this exodus?
Long term it doesn´t pay off, if you treat your own
staff miserable, it is only going to be expensive later.

Managers, show your staff respect and pay the what
the positions is worth.

At the end you will be doing yourself a favor.

RYR Pilots: show dignity and fight for better conditions!


:ok:

[bia botal]

heard today that as many as 17 guys resigned in one day recently, 5 guys ex dub now in faro had a meeting with PB regarding getting back onto 5/4 so they could get at least some time back in dublin with there families, "no sorry its not possible" was the reply, 5 guys then handed him letters of resignation, followed by PB giving the usual dribble about not being so hasty and we'll look into it for you etc, they told him that it's to late and we can't trust you. :) On average now 10 pilots resigning a week. 200 captains short for the summer........

[Damianik]

Will he realize he needs some help from some externals or will maybe give more to who is inside?
D

[Omar_Baba]

I was speaking to a friend who is based in a small UK base and 3 captains have resigned (working their notice until April). I know another captain from the base who left for somewhere hotter and sandier before christmas.

But I doubt it will effect management as they dont give a F**K and besides that they are to arrogant to admit they need us.

[OutsideCAS]

But I doubt it will effect management as they dont give a F**K and besides that they are to arrogant to admit they need us

Omar, agreed they may well be arrogant but unless they adapt that behaviour for a less confrontational one, they will find themselves severly undercrewed and having to cancel flights which regardless of determined arrogance, will eventually lead to huge losses - MOL will have to sit up and listen then regardless - his days are now numbered.

[HidekiTojo]

It just doesn't add up does it... Business management will usually attempt anything to ensure a company runs efficiently and has an edge over the competition yet ryanair are haemorrhaging pilots (if what's written here is correct) and they seam determined not to do anything about it?! Why? Would they cut off their noses to spite their face?

They are about to run out of 737's too same attitude toward Boeing....

Easyjet and Flybe seam to be following suit with their crews....

Maybe the truth is Loco simply doesn't work without expansion based on cheap aircraft and pilots. One things for certain the days of cheap aircraft are long gone. Boeing won't make that mistake again.

[OutsideCAS]

Agreed, it doesn't add up but the management won't publicly (i.e. within company at any rate) admit that their collective attitude toward the travelling public, regulatory bodies and staff is at odds with the way things will develop over the coming months and years. As for in private, behind closed doors, they already will have been discussing the current situation regarding pilot resignations and you can be assured whilst their public stance is still the way it always has been, measures are being discussed as to how they can overcome the losses in order to mitigate any problems in the short and long-term.

[16024]

Mr Horgy.
Well that's the beauty of joined-up debate. But whatever the pros and cons of direct entry captains vs direct entry FOs (and for what it's worth I think there's room for both), the point is there are just not enough cadets coming through to make the numbers work. Not by this summer, anyway.
And yes, the basing policy sometimes sucks, but this could be made more easily understood and more transparent at no cost AT ALL to the company. As for 5/3. Why? It earns the company no money, especially in the summer when pilots are maxed out. Let's get the NO COST solutions sorted at least.

[AROUNDGO]

I am always surprised by those who keep on trying to understand the base policy. The policy is clear: to piss off the maximum people. This is the culture; and, as written somewhere above, it pays because when you are desperately waiting for a base transfer to save your couple and your family, you will not start arguing with rostering when they ask you to fly an off day.
Of course, RYR will take corrective actions. But they will rather ground planes and loose hundreds of thousands €/£ than let see that crew pressure could make them change. Because if we could see history and evidence that if we unite we can win, it would just mean the end of the RYR model as it exists today.
The corrective actions have started. Some of these desperate guys just got calls from PB and were finally offered their home base. I wouldn't be surprised if we see massive base transfers in the next weeks.
You can say anything about RYR but not that they improvise or get trapped. Trainig 15, 20 or 30 captains a week is still possible. There will be disruption in the summer. Like every year. And they will finally make it.
Yes pessimistic analysis. Unless we take advantage of the situation.
We need 90% membership to IALPA and go into negiciation. EZY and many more did it.
Theire arrogance is ruining our lifes, our families, our passion and our health. Just to show their power and to get more money. That's enough.
Time to do something.
Millions of poor people much more exposed than us managed to free their country.
Cheers.

[warpspeedmrsulu]

One things for certain the days of cheap aircraft are long gone. Boeing won't make that mistake again.

Was it a mistake? Or a hedging of bets, post 9/11? I don't think you're giving Boeing enough credit - they've been in this game longer than O'Leary. In two decades time, i've more confidence in the name 'Boeing' still being around than i do for FR.

If they gave them a nice deal, its because they needed to. Airliner production lines and skilled people cant be turned on and off like a tap. Smoothing out the peaks and troughs in demand comes at a price, but thats the price of staying in business during the bad times.

Contrast this with O'Leary's fuel price hedging... :O
He's a cost-cutting one trick pony, not a business genius. I admire what he's been able to pull off, in a way, and some good things have come out of it for sure, but i don't think its ultimately sustainable and i don't think FR will be looked back on fondly in the future. Unlike the achievements of Boeing.

[stansdead]

I'm not sure they're desperate at all.

There'll always be a desperado in the ranks to suck up the Command somewhere.

Or, is there no-one left to promote?

[RAT 5]

Someone posted that RYR's final tally will now be 299a/c. A couple of years ago I'd heard 345 a/c and then 325 a/c. What is true, and is this downsizing anything to do with crewing? Are RYR in fact being able to sell any older a/c? If they ordered 345 in total where are they going if not RYR?
Also heard a fact new to me; Wizzair has the same investor as RYR and there is a gentleman's agreement not to tread on each others toes. Might explain why no RYR bases east of Berlin. Wizz have a a good few a/c on order; airbuses. Thoughts are there might be some merging in the future. Any insiders with knowledge?

[HidekiTojo]

Warpspeed you are right, I agree.

What I meant was Boeing won't make the mistake of selling MOL cheap airframes to have it rubbed in their face and gloated about in public.

Three organisations make the money in aviation: The big aircraft manufacturers, the airports and the Tax man.

[DjerbaDevil]

RAT 5:

According to http://jethros.eu/fleets/fleet_listings/ryanair.htm (mhtml:{25171FF0-2B93-487E-847D-B68C941D8898}mid://00002385/!x-usc:http://jethros.eu/fleets/fleet_listings/ryanair.htm)
Ryanair have 263 aircraft in service, 52 on order for 2011 and 2012 and a further 173 options up to 2014.

Regular updates on Jethros shows that at the same time that new aircraft are delivered to Dublin from Boeing, Ryanair withdraw aircraft from use. Without mention of how they dispose of the aircraft. Although if you go to http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/index.html (mhtml:{25171FF0-2B93-487E-847D-B68C941D8898}mid://00002385/!x-usc:http://www.planespotters.net/Airline/index.html) you will find where the historical fleet has been disposed of, which is mostly to other airlines, mostly via leasing companies+some write offs.

Without the advantage of any inside knowledge, the developing picture seems to indicate that the market for Ryanair has almost reached maturity. Any future development in new routes may require some very imaginative marketing, which may not provide the required profits nor the "advertising contributions" to make these new ventures worthwhile.

[nick14]

The word from PB last time he visited was a total of 299 in service when the last delivery takes place in 2012. We were supposed to have 300 but the Ciampino accident claimed one airframe. There is no downsizing, as a new aircraft arrives an old one is sold or it is added to the total.

I don't think there will be anymore, it's just not possible to get them at such a cheap price anymore and Europe isn't that big. Il wait and see what comes of it.

[7574ever]

So do you guys think there will be a slow down in new hiring at Ryanair anytime soon? Or will the cadet churning machine keep going for a while? What do you think?

[FlyboyUK]

Brookfield pilots already pay for recurrent training

[MrHorgy]

16024,

I agree. From the sidelines, I can't imagine how a workforce made up from cadets, AND experienced guys could ever be viewed as anything other than a good thing. You are also correct with what you say regarding crewing figures for summer.

THERE WILL NOT BE ENOUGH CREWS. How this situation has come about is up to individual interpretation, but a large part I would wager has been on the fact people don't have options. With BA, and Emirates starting to suck up experienced guys, FO's (and to a lesser extent, CPT) are now fed up enough to leave. Most, if not all of the FO's I know are not exactly excited by the idea of command, purely because of the upheaval and the imposition of 5/3.

I'm looking forward to 5/3 coming to TFS, ACE and LPA and the associated crewing issues they have with people having a N/A each week. Although then people go onto 4/4 and that might be even better.

Horgy

[peba]

i have to agree wit you,2500 hr guys dont want upgrade which is causing headaches to PB and JD ETC and fair play to them for not being pushed into it.its gonna be funny when they try enforce the 5/3 roster(in most bases) again for the summer!!a great way to push even more guys out the door!!

any idea of how many guys/girls are in a base where they dont want to be?that would be the 1st thing they should sort out IMHO.

[VJW]

For info the TFS/LPA/ACE bases are not going 5/3.

I said no to one of these (the one I didn't apply to), they called me back few weeks later saying its staying 5/4 and no change to my current contract.....

Still said no - just in case!

[Flex_Thrust]

@ FlyboyUK

How much do the Brookfield guys pay for recurrent? (How much how often etc - I need to know!)
Thanks
F_T

[nick14]

They take 4.50 euro/sbh off our pay so we don't pay essentially they just pay us less it's a bit of a daft thing because it would cover it up if they said our pay was x amount not x-4.5 for sim??

There you go

[Flex_Thrust]

Thanks for letting me know Nick.

At least the picture is starting to come together regards these downfalls in Ryanair, there seems to be many.

Pity Emirates don't take old low hrs guys!!!

[maverick777]

The latest news from East Midlands Training is that 10 pilots per week are leaving this sewer airline !!

Good riddens O'Leary; D.O.B & P.B oh and lest i forget :mad: Wilson!!

[Aldente]

You forgot the "Bases Bulldog" - DR !

:D

[Johnny Tightlips]

How big are the chances of all bases going 5/3 for the summer? I'm on a 5/4 in Spain and it takes me 12 hours each way to travel to Spain and back when I take into account all the buses,trains,planes and hanging around airports I do, if it goes 5/3 I am fubared:( Also when the new government in Ireland takes over and hopefully gets rid of the travel tax and other things that we are hearing about will RYR have any taught of sending aircraft to DUB,ORK and SNN? Also will the Irish crew's finally get home or am I destined to stay in :mad: Madrid for the rest of my time in RYR:ugh:

[TolTol]

I reckon ya can forget about Dublin anyway. Too many Irish there already and they don't want too many of the same nationality in the same base. I'd also imagine they might give any snn positions to the guys that were forced to leave there.

I hear ya on the 5/3 though, gonna be some balls if its true...which I'd imagine it is.

[Callsign Kilo]

I believe a universal 5/3 is a very real possibility for the summer. It would be the first indication of crewing problem in my opinion.

The likes of getting DUB as a base is more problematic for a Captain in my opinion, less so for an FO due to the amount of CUs that have recently occurred. However there is a contingency who are unwilling to upgrade due to the fact that they have lives in Ireland and/or they are on good permanent contracts. Added issue is that the base is shrinking. I don't even believe it can be considered as the second largest base in the company any longer?

The base is majority Irish flight crew - both FOs and Captains. Any Captains that have been transferred there in the last few years, a very limited few I may add, have all been Irish nationals - as have any FOs. There has always been an influx of newbees once every 6 months. All sent there from an allocation list with no thought or consideration whatsoever. But sure, that's how base allocation works in Ryanairland!

[go around flaps15]

If a universal 5/3 comes into play the floodgates WILL open in quite spectacular style...

[Shrimps]

How will 5/3 work - I was under the impression that FR pilots are often close to the 900hr limit already with 5/4, which is why those on BRK get the enforced month off.

[RYR738_driver]

Shrimps,
It is true that some guys get close to the 900 hour mark, but the main reason for the month off is so HMRC don't look upon us as employees and make Brookfield pay our taxes and NI.


Whilst I am under no illusion that anything is possible in Ryanair (apart from a base transfer list := ), I personally don't think they would bring in 5/3 for all bases as it would be a massive change for rostering to create new 5/3 patterns for pilots with existing 5/4.
I can imagine them demanding 6/3 for some summer months from the current 5/4 guys, or less likely, an opportunity for pilots to bid for 6/3 for this period.


Most likely that Rostering will be on the phone a lot of the time asking people to work days off and there will always be someone to work it because most pilots think short term of the extra hours and/or pay, even though its likely for hours to average out in respective bases come April.
(Ryanair have got us thinking each man for himself)


On a side note, has anyone taken a couple of extra months off and still found themselves with 700 hours or so?

[HighLow]

you got to love PPRuNe!!

the guys in the know a few weeks back posted a list of the number of pilots leaving each base.,... its been noticeably very quiet on here lately .. I wonder how that list is getting on ....

personally , I am not hearing that many people are actually on the move... well from my base anyhow(mainland europe)

this exodus doesn't appear to be an exodus at all... relatively speaking
when taking into account the numbers of people actually leaving....

to try an see what the big picture actually is, why don't posters detail how many from each base are actually jumping ship...

2600 pilots approx within the airline, well then...
what kinda of level would make management begin to worry??????
e.g 25 Pilots per week would equate to 1300 per annum
(thats 50 %!!!!!)...

what in everyones mind would be the critical number?

[go around flaps15]

Short over 200 captains for the summer. That could be a critical number.

[HighLow]

short of 200 Captains, has this figure been verified in some way?

if they are short now, it can only get worse...
does this shortage take into account the ongoing new deliveries?

how many senior FO's are considering command...or thinking of going elsewhere...

being short of 200 captains sure is a major headache,
Senior FO's leaving also would only make it more challenging for RYR management...


can they even get that number of 200 new skippers (Command Upgrade or OCC) through the simulator before the summer....

maybe this 200 shortage is actually 200 and rising....

[go around flaps15]

This forum is a hotbed of rumours, as is nearly every crew room with every airline when it comes to employment, crew shortages, crew culls, and any other topic on any given agenda.

Who is ever going to officially verify that?

But as they say "no smoke..........

[Callsign Kilo]

Who is ever going to officially verify that?

It will only be verified come the summer schedule. It will become apparent to every pilot within FR if the arse has fallen out of the company's trousers.

[Say again s l o w l y]

A quick question. How many RYR pilots end up paying IR35, or does the fact that RYR is based in Ireland stuff that up for those robbing ***** at the revenue?

[TolTol]

Well I have heard the 200 captains shortage rumour from two sources, one from a guy in EMT and the other from a person in STN offices.

Most likely that Rostering will be on the phone a lot of the time asking people to work days off and there will always be someone to work it because most pilots think short term of the extra hours and/or pay, even though its likely for hours to average out in respective bases come April.
(Ryanair have got us thinking each man for himself)

Have to agree 100%, especially that pilots will only think short term and each man for himself. What if most people refuse to work a day off?

:mad: them, Brk pilots dont get any working day off payments so why should we do them a favour, they'll only give another standby on your days on!

[billy one sock]

Speaking to one Captain who has just bought a separate mobile for work. The moment he finishes his duty he switches it off, and turns it on again when he reports. I think this is a good idea and I will be doing the same. Working days off is a false economy, you are simply plugging the holes by showing good will. If everyone did not answer their phones when off duty the Pilot shortage would become more apparent. This would highlight the fact they need us more than we need them! Don't get me wrong I am all for helping a company if they show good will, however, this lot don't. Goodwill is a two way street.

Dont work your days off!

[McNulty]

Both captains i flew with the last two days are leaving and another guy i flew with last week is going aswell - all three mainly because of being based a long way from home. Management have seriously underestimated the effect of their stupid basing "system", alongside all the other BS.

[peba]

i have to agree with everything that has been said in the last 2 pages or so.

1)if 5/3 comes in then there will be a whole pile of captains leaving,this is the pilots trump card imho,the captains have to stand up and fight or just leave.most of you captains probably have enough hours to go direct entry to Dubai etc anyway

2)demand a waiting list per base:its very easy,just provide some proof of when and where you applied then post it for all to see.

3)the point about getting a 2nd mobile is excellent,everyone should do it.

4)stop working days off for them,they wont do you any favors so why help them?

note that none of this will cost ryanair anything to do,but if they dont then i hope they pay severely!!

[nick14]

Before I realised this I worked a day off last week, a 8:50 block time day so I was happy until they took the same off me the next week and im worse off for having lost a day off and gained nothing.:*

I will never again work a day off as it just does the company a favour and as someone said earlier, it plugs the holes created by resignations.

Management will only change things when they cannot crew aircraft and we are a long way away from that at the moment.

Everyone should refuse to work outside their roster!!

[Company Message]

If 5/3 comes then lots of FR captains might want to leave, but by that time the jobs will have been filled by easyJet guys. :E

[zerotohero]

I myself have done it a couple of times thinking its a few hundred extra €€€ in the back pocket, then roster friday arrives and low and behold my 4 days and a standbys turned into 3 days and 2 standbys! both times :suspect:

A mate of mine in a smaller base was was having the same experience with rostering asking him to work 6 days as they were always short F/O's in the summer and he also kept losing a day to a standby that was originally a flying day.

Why they do this is beyond me, maybe it is down to max hours or something, but if thats the case there really is no point in taking the day as you will just end up with the same hours/money but have a much worse lifestyle because of it

I will not be accepting any days off working for crewing at all now, still don't mind to do a swap for another pilot as this is helping out a college and changes nothing other than a favour which goes both ways if needed and not forgot unlike with rostering.

[d105]

Thinking about putting this in my signature:

Do not pick up your phone when you are called by a blocked or an Irish number while on OFF days. Crewcontrol rarely or never leaves messages on your voicemail. Chances are if someone else is calling you they will leave a message on your voicemail. You don't really have to worry about people not being able to reach you in this case.

In other news. FO who just recentely upgraded to captain returned to major European base bypassing several people on the "list".

[peba]

name the base,and people will work out the rest,should be known and brought up at the next declan ryan drive!!

[nick14]

I guess its off to the phone shop for me then.....

[wayupthere]

Chinese cadets? So they take all the flying hours, the High hour F/Os leave and the low hour guys do very little flying leaving a massive experience gap and this "200 captains short" becomes even worse.

Is it just me or does anyone else think management are trying to run the company into the ground? :confused:

[TolTol]

On another note , rumor flying around about Chinese cadets coming to train with us . Anyone hear about this .

Yep, heard it twice:suspect:

[HighLow]

Chinese cadets?

well things are already rocky at the moment for sure,

if they do indeed source First Officers from China, things are really getting out of hand....a full type rating? the bean counters will luv that for sure, more money!!!!!

not wanting to have a go at our chinese counterparts, far from it, however there are important issues here in terms of CRM and advocacy!! after working in Asia for seven years, I can speak from personal experience. Bringing together both 1) the nature of our operation and 2) a first officer who would be reluctant to stand up for themselves , this would be of great concern for many people


when we start hearing of this company grounding aircraft or cancelling flights, with the summer schedule fast approaching,then for sure, we will know exactly how much crap is hitting the fan...

[Callsign Kilo]

however do NOT be surprised if they decide to restrict this practise by attempting to implement some daft new rule....i would love to see them trying that and seeing the reaction...

I appreciate what you are saying; anything is possible here. Maybe we can expect a memo.... due to ongoing crewing issues, which are directly attributable to your departing compadres complete and utter inconsideration for the positions of our remaining valued crew members, operational reasons now require us to be able to invade your personal privacy when your not on duty. Ensure your phone is on at all times and that you are available to answer it Best Regards :p :p :p

[Horsepowerrr]

Been watching this now for 26 pages, but all I can say is that RYR would be very sillyto put in a 5/3 roster in bases that had 5/4 before. It will mean just more people will leave and it will hurt them so much that they will not know where to turn. For myself the 5/3 will be the final push that will send me off somewhere else. And that will be another left seat to fill by EMA. If you are BRK you are hit hard with 5/3, coz it just means you will be doing more standby's and not make a penny more. And away from home you will have average 1,5 day with your family a week. Great job huh!

I am also fed up with the leave system, why this whole month off? If you want it, great. But if you want to spread it in more weeks you cant. Why not? It is just easier for Rostering to do it like this, but it is just rubbish. I know guys who had 18 months between their months off. Safe?

Thats also why I wont accept 5/3 in the summer. You cant really apply for much leave in the summer and then ony 3 days off will make you not see much of the summer or for many pilots also their family.

The last ten years the RYR pilots didnt get much extra at all, inflation, etc. compensated for the few % extra the pilots got. Everything else just deteriorated as well.

I think a lot of people are waiting for the next bad move from RYR and they will leave. PB is welcome in our base. When he comes to bring the 5/3 news I can hand in my resignation straight away to him. Quite handy. :) Plenty of jobs out there and how much worse can they be? Not.

Anyway, these were just my thoughts. Keep tunnelling guys!

[Rednex]

Chinese cadets, best rumour ever.
Here's a rumour for you, 90% of people resigning are FOs which is going to have almost ZERO inpact in FR. Start getting 100 captains resigning then we will see. As Public Enemy once said "Don't beleive the hype"

[maverick777]

Dont believe the hype?!????????

first of all you can disregard this chinese cadet crap!

Look, ryr are becomeing one of the most insecure companies/airlines!
1.Oil is at a 30 month high!
2.10 pilots are leaving or commencing notice periods or simply leaving every week
3.there's been no pay rise in the past 10 years,
4. there is no future for ryr as long as MOL is at the helm because in the real airline world where staff are respected, his business model has lilttle foundation
5.this exodus would have happened years ago were it not for the downturn in the airline industry which gave ryr/MOL the upper hand with Boeing, pilots, cabin crew, engineers, airports, etc..NOT ANY MORE!

Where's the future for a company who's staff have zero loyalty and respect for a boss/management system which holds them is such distain and disregard across all bases from Dublin to Trapani and every other one in between?!!
Pay cuts, abolition of benefits - even forcin you to move base and take up to a 40% pay cut in the process!
A completely ludacris non-transparent basing system
pay cuts at will
a roster and annual leave system which is put into place simply because it cuts down in f**kin man-hours for the rostering dept!
Cabin crew on less then the minimum wage!!!
Fathers and mothers forced to work away from home leaving loved ones behind and no hope of ever getting back due to the blatant disregard of MOL and his crony henchmen!

The list is endless...those of us in RYR can see this pain that pilots have to endure....The rate of attrition is getting more exponential by the week!

In the Leeds base during the week a flight was delayed for a number of hours due to lack of flight crew - no stbys even!. A crew from another base had to fly there to avoid a total cancellation!

[Busbar]

90% of people resigning are FOs which is going to have almost ZERO inpact in FR.

How do you come to that conclusion? B738's require two Pilots? :confused:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Because finding 200hr cadets to fill the RHS and take the crap MOL dishes out isn't a problem. There seems to be an endless queue. Experienced captains willing to join FR I would imagine are not so easy to find.

[Busbar]

Ok fair point. However, if the industry is picking up like the signs are starting to show, it will be interesting to see if these people will still be queing at FR's door and sign up for these very poor t's and c's. If there are more options on offer that are considerably better than FR's "deal" then they may find their supply a bit short. I certainly hope that does happen, it will teach them a lesson!

[peba]

ok,about time someone started a new thread for this topic,but no bull ****e,no bashing
just pure and simple idea's to get back at them or at very least get even.

seems like there are a lot of pissed off people over there,so about time you did something about it.:ugh::ugh:

idea's already mentioned,
1)demand base roster
2)refuse to work days off
3)2nd mobile for duty time
4)better leave facility
5)brookfield pilots to pat there taxes where they wish,not just in Ireland (although any donations are greatly accepted these days!!).

just a thought!!

[stuckgear]

Chinese cadets? So they take all the flying hours, the High hour F/Os leave and the low hour guys do very little flying leaving a massive experience gap and this "200 captains short" becomes even worse.


Would that make it a chinese take-away?

[wayupthere]

Would that make it a chinese take-away?

Very good :D

[d105]

Never heard of the Chinese Cadet scheme. But I'll be sure to poll around on my next shift to see if anyone has any more information on this.

Horsepowerr: From what I understand the whole month off is there to avoid UK labour legislation. On paper you are a contractor hired by Brookfield. If they hire you for 12 months in the year you are technically a full-time employee and that would entail more costs for Brookfield. The reason I'm not entirely sure is because in recent BRK contracts I've read that the pilot is not allowed to work for another outfit during the course of the BRK contract. I don't see how that fits into the whole "self-employed" image.

I had a chance to take a look at the base roster recently. All commanders are maxing out but to my surprise, FO's are not far behind. More often than not I saw 5 flying days without standby. This is remarkable considering we're February.

[Callsign Kilo]

there is no future for ryr as long as MOL is at the helm because in the real airline world where staff are respected, his business model has lilttle foundation

His business model has only been based on respect for one thing - COST. He has been CEO of FR since 1994. People have came and went in their droves since then; however he has still managed to control a phenomenal level of growth without buttering up anyone whatsoever. I wish it were different, but it's not.

Where's the future for a company who's staff have zero loyalty and respect for a boss/management system which holds them is such distain and disregard across all bases from Dublin to Trapani and every other one in between?!!

See above. If there is a mass exodus in progress then old houdini up in the white house will pull out the stops to prevent handing over long term and meaningful concessions to the workforce. Michael isn't afraid of a flutter and has deep pockets - just look at the Aer Lingus debacle and the fuel hedging (or lack of) farce. Summer wet leasing anyone? Its been done before.

[irishpilot1990]

@d105 about new captain jumping the que to get a major europe base!!!:confused:
Can you please forward the list to me?? Love to know where I am on the que for Dublin!! :ok:Personal opinion is there is no list, theres is however luck and knowing the right people.

LOL at chinese cadets!!Funniest rumour yet.My only experience of new chinese pilots was while hour building in florida.Listening to them busting airspace and causing runway incursions and generally getting in way due to poor english.:ugh:
Ryanair are not stupid!The hassle/time of language issues,paperwork and license issues....besides its Capts they need!Plenty of FOs from Europe still queing for interview.

Not sure was it there all the time:confused: but Ryanair website now has section for Direct Entry Captains wanted.

[Ben Franklin]

Have you gents seen this one? Hot off the Irish Revenue Commissioners presses via the 2011 Finance Bill:


Tax treatment of flight crew in international traffic.

SECTION 16
36. In page 37, before section 16, to insert the following new section:
The Principal Act is amended in Chapter 5 of Part 5 by inserting the following
section after section 127
127B ( 1 ) Income arising to any individual, whether resident in the State
or not. from any employment exercised aboard an aircraft
(a) that is operated in international traffic and
(b) where the aircraft is so operated by an enterprise that has its place
of effective management in the State
shall be chargeable to tax under Schedule E
(2} For the purposes of an arrangement to which this section and section
826 applies. 'international traffic' , in relation to an aircraft, does not include
an aircraft operated solely between places in another state "
An tAaire Airgeadais

It basically provides that staff working on board aircraft that owned by an Irish company are liable to Irish tax REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY ARE RESIDENT AND WHERE THEY EXERCISE THEIR DUTIES.

In other works, a German working for an Irish Airline who lives in Germany and flies from Germany to the US only might now be properly liable to Irish tax - even though he never sets foot in Ireland. Of course the various Double Tax Treaties might have something to say about this.

[zerotohero]

I dont.........

[irishpilot1990]

YouTube - Air China "talks" to JFK Ground (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AFv48IWhJw&feature=related:E)

Apart from the few guys on UK contracts everyone pays tax in ireland so that changes nothing! Most ryr pilots dont set foot or even fly into ireland.

[zerotohero]

lol that link is brilliant, sounds just like when I hear them operating into Madrid, also pretty much the same when ordering a take away, i put up with it for the food as its awesome, but rather not have them poke a big a@@ plane up my sitting tool. :eek:

[Aldente]

d105

From what I understand the whole month off is there to avoid UK labour legislation. On paper you are a contractor hired by Brookfield. If they hire you for 12 months in the year you are technically a full-time employee and that would entail more costs for Brookfield.

Maybe, but this doesn't explain why the guys employed directly by Ryanair as employees on a Ryanair contract, also now have to take one month off.

I have it on good authority that it was introduced simply to make the rostering department's job easier, by cutting down on the number of annual leave requests they had to process before this rule was introduced. Unfortunately as the pilot workforce has grown, the back office systems (most of them non computerised !) have struggled to cope .....


:(

[nick14]

My accountant rang me last week to notify me I could now start paying uk tax and NI.

Not sure how that new legislation affects me now.

[Horsepowerrr]

@d105, as Aldente says it also counts for RYR contracts. It is too silly for words that the pilots cant decide how they want their leave. You can really go without leave for a long time like this and if you look how intense the work can be, it can be sometimes just too long between leave periods for people and that can be a safety issue as well.
It does make life easier for a few people in Rostering, but possibly messes up the lives of 2000+ pilots and their families. ;)

If you look at what has happened over the last years and what we have to accept and has been changed for the worse, it is all just adding up and is getting pretty close for me and many others to decide to leave. The job in RYR is not as good anymore as it was and also the pay and all that comes with it. Other jobs cant be that much worse and you might get some respect there. And I know what I am talking about, coz I have been around a few of them in my flying years so far. It seems that even now, when the economical crisis is not even officially over, RYR is already losing people at a significant rate. So imagine what happens when they will enforce 5/3 and other companies just start hiring even more. :confused:

Also new Capts will be send to the Canaries a lot. For just very few hours extra positioning from your home you are in the Middle East. So that is something to consider as well for command ready FO's. And they are, coz lost of them are leaving to there. Some hang in there with the hope they will get their requested base soon, but for not many this happens and some of them waiting are eventually so fed up that they just leave.

For the Chinese FO story. Never heard of that beside Pprune by the way, but would be curious what English Language proficiency level these guys would have. :D

[billy one sock]

Which accountant is this? Are you with MCM, or CXE on the new contract?

[16024]

Do you mean as well as paying them in ireland?!
By your accountant, do you mean CXC, MacNamara etc?
I'd prefer to pay into the UK, rather than sponsor the Celtic Tiger, Irish flippin Miracle.

[nick14]

Cxc, I'm uk based and uk resident so my they said to make it easier for us for mortgages etc we can pay uk tax only.

It's better for me for sure.

Anyone who is uk based and uk resident call you accountants to sort it for you.

[MrHorgy]

Actually, high houred FO's leaving IS a problem. These are the individuals that will be moving to the LHS and crewing the aircraft within the next 18 months. Cadets are easy to train, but who do you think trains them? Line Training FO's? We still need Captains to train cadets...

[irishpilot1990]

can safely say you are not funding any Celtic Tiger any longer:ouch:

[d105]

Aldente

I was recentely made aware that Ryanair contracts now also have to take a month off. Not sure why but your explanation seems plausible. At least in a company like Ryanair. This is however a new thing since it was not the case when I joined the company.

Horsepowerr

I don't doubt you know what you are talking about. I'm pretty much of the same mindset as you. I'm tolerating Ryanair for the near future but I'm keeping my eyes open for other opportunities as well. I'm not yet of an age where joining the bottom ladder of a legacy is no longer feasible.

My personal stance towards the Canary Island bases is extremely sceptical. Some of you might remember what happened to the first Valencia base. Pilots moving entire families to Valencia only to be told the base is closing merely a year later. One should be cautious with any new base or any holiday destination base in the Ryanair network. They are prone to large fluctuations in aircraft numbers.

Another issue that arises with remote bases such as the Canaries, Faro or Porto is standbys. Their route networks are based on long flights (2u+ single way) which results in pilots maxing out on hours quickly. Once maxed they go on standbys which are spread to the convenience of rostering.

Phones

I'm glad to see at least two people are taking my advice on refusing to answer their phones during off days. Pilots need to be made aware that there is no benefits whatsoever for Brookfield contractors to fly on off days. :)

[PRT2010]

Hi all!

I do read these things with interest, as going through most of the posts it amazes me on how you can read some utter rubbish. I am a RYR pilot and one who is only a few weeks away from leaving for other pastures. After 27 pages the thread has been lost a bit, but currently the bottom line is:

The "official" line is that the management know, who, when and why people may be leaving and its in line with expected planned numbers. True or false that's the RYR Line. Do people really expect them to say anything other than that?

Comments made by people moaning about paying for TR, etc are fine but not helpful. The current market allows for it and whilst it does RYR will continue. Lets face it, their not the only ones! However due to numerous reasons, the total number of people leaving (Exact number is debatable) can not be replaced by cadets.

What, if anything RYR will do to try and reduce the amount of people leaving will struggle to be close to peoples grand ideas. From an RYR oldie I would agree with a comment posted earlier that the canx of 90% salary for new Capts & a better choice of base (be it the pilots current or any other preferred option) would make things better. However this also may not stop people from leaving. The industry is enjoying a cautious upturn and resignations will occur, be it for RYR, EASY, BA, EK, BMI, AA, UA, etc.

People around the 2,500hr mark now have the opportunity to almost be on an even keel with those with 6,000 if they join EK (as an example). This is understandably appealing. Why stay on to do your command with RYR (adding a 2yr bond), different base and 90% salary for at least 1 yr, to end up with 4,500hrs (with some command experience) only to leave and go back to the right seat (Mandatory for EK) for another 3-5yrs?

Stay as an F/O - move into a different company and 3-5yrs later (EK) you up for command. People who became Capt with RYR and then move, will be your F/O's!

RYR is a company that can give a lot of practical experience in a short period of time. The training standards are high (Noted comments of carriers currently interviewing RYR pilots), and many guys who are not necessarily tied down and willing to move use RYR as a good stepping stone.

It should also be noted that people currently leaving are not just heading to EK, contrary to popular belief. BA, Aer Lingus, Korean, Jet 2, Fly Dubai, Etihad, Tiger, Jet Airways, etc continue to receive RYR guys. What will RYR do to stem the flow - probably nothing.:ugh:

[wayupthere]

I see the flight from BCN to AGP was cancelled this morning.
Anyone know the "excuse"? Last time I was in AGP there were 2 A/C on the ramp all locked up. Could they not even manage a reverse sector out of it?

[maverick777]

At Leeds last week a flight was delayed for a number of hours due to lack of flight crew - no stbys!

A crew from another base had 2 sectors added to their day to avoid a total cancellation!

[d105]

Crew from major EU base arrives in Valencia. Told by dispatcher they would perform an up and down trip to Seville before returning back to their home base. This happened early last month.

Visiting colleague on off days gets 3 phonecalls from Irish numbers while at my house.

Things are happening.

[Omar_Baba]

Leeds base has 3 a/c but is only crewed for 2 and if you have operated to Leeds you will probably agree its up in the top ten unforgiving airports in the FR network..... Quite often crews are diverting because of crosswinds outside of operating limits or FG (low cloud really as the wind is still in excess of 10kts) or too heavy for autoland for runway 32 as its too short, wet and there is a tailwind. Hence most of the time crews have to divert to LPL which puts an aircraft out of the loop therefore its easier to get another base to do the flights rather than make the LBA crew do it and possibly be out of hours for the following day. I dont think there is a crewing problem at Leeds they have enough Captains and FOs at the moment approx 10 of each for 2 aircraft. But I have been told by a friend based there that 3 captains are off to Jet 2 in the next 2 months and all are top guys that FR should have been fighting to keep.

Oh and apparently leeds is going 5/3 for the Captains summer schedule....