British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[Max Tow]

Fly12345 - one wonders whether the grateful passengers would recognise your colleagues on the flight as the "ragbag of pilots,managers and strike-breakers masquerading as crew " accused by McCluskey in today's press as "trashing the BA brand". Quite the opposite, I suspect.
Note careful use by Mr McC of the word "managers" - clearly he cannot believe that "ordinary" workers would ever lift a finger to save BA. And just how can working BA cabin crew be "masquerading" as what they are anyway?

[License to Fly]

from the bbc link:

Unite's Steve Turner said the union was "absolutely crystal clear" there would be no settlement without staff travel concessions being returned.
The union is seeking legal advice over the issue.


I hope Unite get a better legal advice than the December and February court cases! They could start by telling Unite they have no chance and not to waste their money in legal fees! :ugh:

more bravado (hot air) union speak, grrrr

[License to Fly]

we had cabin crew on our flights yesterday who had been on strike last weekend (and lost their staff travel) - they had returned to work as they need the money to support their families

we also had one lady who came in as normal (in uniform) and was determined not to be intimidated by anyone - good on her, BASSA should not be feared.


Anyway, much more interesting Mr Simpson has been using his members union fees in Bangkok .. i wonder what for :-

BA union boss and a Bangkok go-go bar: Two-day stopover paid for by Unite included visit to seedy joint | Mail Online (http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1261257/BA-union-boss-Bangkok-go-bar-Two-day-stopover-paid-Unite-included-visit-seedy-joint.html)

[raveng]

Good morning everyone
A couple of posts have mentioned the BBC in particular.

In my opinion it's not just the BBC, but the general state of our quick
'snapshot' 'sensational' and 'sloppy' journalism here. All the S's.:oh:

What's a little thing like balance got do with a good news story?
The 20 aircraft at CWL/30 odd at SNN for example, or the 120+ planes parked, when we clearly and more importantly verifiable had a large number still flying (excluding the leased) - how many aircraft do we have?

Now I can understand perhaps this being reported a few times, but surely, surely any journo worth their salt would check and verify these statements.... :sad:

I may be wrong here and apologise if I am, but I really feel that UNITE are desperate to put a stop to all this, that it's BASSA that are pulling their strings!!!

[Rushed Approach]

There seems to be a general perception that all people who do the same job must be treated the same in law. This is simply not the case. The word "discrimination" is often used in this context, but the law protects in terms of discrimination only in specific instances: where sex, age, and race are concerned.

It is not "illegal" to discriminate with respect to someone's height for example - it is generally pointless, which is why you don't see it, and it would cause accusations of the employer being "unfair" on taller or shorter individuals, but it would not be illegal to do so.

Similarly, with extra pay for "good performance". One manager might get a 2% rise whereas his colleague gets 5% because his appraisal is better. The one who gets the lower rise may insist it is because his boss has always favoured the other and that it has nothing to do with ability, but even if his suspicion is true he has no recourse in law because discrimination law does not cover this.

However, in the current situation it is my understanding that those who are likely to strike, and hence have their ST privileges removed are generally the more experienced and hence older CC. If this could be demonstrated, there may therefore be an indirect age discrimination case to make, whereby those who have had their ST removed are on average older than those who have not. For this to be lawful, the employer would have to argue that such discrimination was a "proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim". Whether preventing workers going on strike is a "legitimate aim" for an employer is highly questionable given the right to strike being enshrined in law, and so Unite may have more chance of succeeding here than some are assuming.

[HZ123]

Time to Say Goodbye (http://www.funstufftosee.com/goodbye.html)

It can happen to us!

[Weather Map]

Where will it all end.

[Weather Map]

Rushed Approach.

I would say there are a good mix of senior and junior crew currently striking .The two crew members who were interviewed on the BBC News Channel yesterday were both post 97 contracts.

[Hot Wings]

One stewardess claimed to be on a basic of only £11,000 after 11 years in BA.
The general public would be shocked by these slave labour levels of pay. Perhaps she should have mentioned that she's a 50% purser.:=

This is typical BASSA spin and does cabin crew no favours.

FWIW the strikers have absolutely zero support from the groundstaff, engineers, loaders and tug drivers that I have spoken to. The engineers have also been deeply insulted by BASSA's claim about shoddily maintained aircraft. CC stating that "they are BA" is an insult to the rest of us in the airline.

[Re-Heat]

VLD:
We all know that we live in a changed world, but... what is the point you are trying to make? That we all have to renounce to terms and conditions, job security and decent wages because the market and the ones who play with it must have total freedom to make profits, and total control of our conditions?
And the company recognise that, which is why they did not plan to cut anyone's take-home, but instead make working practices more efficient. And also why they tried to negotiate.

Unite / BASSA have failed you on this point; not the company!

[toomuchradiations]

I think the strike will continue for another round, then the union will give up, and Willie will take appropriate actions by dismissing the strikers. It will be done a completely legal way, by giving the right notice time. But this is the only way that justifies the company's share price continous rise.

Analysts know that, commercially speaking, this was a good move from the CEO.

[7Heroes]

Interpolating from the first 5 days of strike action it appears that only approx 35-40 % of crew are actually going on strike,and that percentage is decreasing with each strike day that passes.This is based on quite a large sample of approx 2000 crew due to report each day with approx 700 not showing up.Unite /Bassa must be very dissapointed bearing in mind that in excess of 8000 voted for strike action back in December.

I think it was always known that a lot voted yes but had no intention of striking.This made it very unfair on those who were always going to strike as they believed they had more support than was actually the case.But there were enough articles/posts suggesting that was always going to be the case.

You cannot win an industrial dispute with only that level of support.You have 8000+ cabin crew not striking plus what must be close to 1200 volunteers trained up.
Cranebank is working at max capacity and is now only training people up people on the 747.By the end of April they will have another 250-300 volunteers trained up.

I know all these figures will be ridiculed by Bassa who will produce there own but they now have a track record of producing completely made up figures for this dispute.(Aircraft at SNN/CWL ,only 26 crew crossed the picket line etc).

What is Bassa`s exit strategy? Who knows. I think they have been very naive in not looking at how the options for the end game might turn out.
The issue seems to have become about staff travel now.Even if that goes in their favour it could be over a year before it gets to the courts.

With the comments from a bassa rep about giving Gordon Brown a good kicking just before the election by possibly announcing more strike dates in April just shows how dislocated they are from the whole Unite set up.

Bassa are in the process of self destructing and are incapable of taking a step back .They will rue the day they did not have wiser heads to advise or listen to.

[License to Fly]

I agree with toomuchradiations

I think if/when the Unite announce (and complete) another long strike in April, BASSA strikers will be starting to really hurt financially and will have little option but to return to work... If the strikers didn't need the money, why would you be working in the first place ?!

A company exist primarily to make profits for shareholders, not to line the pockets of its employees (but to keep the best you have to pay slightly better than market rates ... maybe 10%? now where have i heard that argument put forward!)

LTF

[Get Smart]

I agree with toomuchradiations that ww will ride the strikes out. So far, their contingency plans have worked perfectly. Whether he will eventually find a way to sack strikers is anyones guess, but one things for sure, I certainly wouldn't want to be in their position right now and this is mainly because I have NO FAITH whatsoever in Unite's competence to fight their corner. :eek:

[Tiramisu]

Willie Walsh, chief executive of BA - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/leisure/article7078854.ece)

[Chuchinchow]

From the union website, 25 March:

the company has vindictively acted to dock pay from crew not just for days taken on strike, but in some cases for longer periods, significantly impacting on your income. Accordingly, Unite will pay strike pay at our agreed rate not just for days taken on strike but for ALL days for which the employer has deducted wages as a result of the industrial action.

Would any member of BASSA who is currently on strike, or even a member who has returned to work, tell us whether or not he/she has received even a penny of the £30 per day strike pay promised by the union?

[bacabincrew]

Nobody has received Strike Pay

[Weather Map]

Extremely loyal to BA,not militants,and backing BA .:eek:

The comments from a female crew member on strike who has just been interviewed on BBC news channel. Is it me or am i missing something here,they do like playing the B&H and single mum card she couldn't realy expand on those comments and just repeated herself.

The unite guy on SKY saying the next two weeks is a pause for peace and a window to negotiate :rolleyes: he is desperate.

[Chuchinchow]

Really? :uhoh:

Yet another broken BASSA promise.

[bacabincrew]

Really?

Yet another broken BASSA promise.

You could not be further from the truth - you can claim your Strike Pay upon production of your March Pay Slip - then they calculate how many days you are owed. Then they pay you, derrrrrrrrrr

And as BA have not yet released the Pay Slips - that cannot be done.

I feel quite embarrassed for you as you clearly thought you had the upper hand. :rolleyes:

[bmimainline]

I think it very worrying that both sides have, at an early stage, boxed themselves into a corner. BA say no return of travel perks - ever. Unite say no deal without the return of travel perks - ever. BA are going to win this in the long term. We can only speculate on what the fallout with be in terms of CRM around the airline but it can't be good.

[swalesboy]

If the strikes are allowed to continue and more and more staff return to work, then theoretically there would be enough staff to run the operation.

The chartered aircraft could continue to be used to fill the remaining schedule.

Then, it is entirely possible (and this is just my opinion, no proof required) that Compulsory Redundancies could be issued to the remaining strikers.

Crew who went into work last week who talked to Bill Francis, said that he mentioned that CR would now be likely. After 3 months, any crew who were made redundant could then be replaced on New Fleet contracts.

Like I said, just my opinion.

[toomuchradiations]

What I wrote was, obviously, just my gut feeling.
The basis for choosing to get rid of more cabin crew is, however, on the basis of the fact that the share price of the company has kept on rising in the past weeks. It is then reasonable to believe that Analysts are convinced that the strike is a good thing, in commercial terms.

So, why would a strike be ever considered a "good thing" be people who want to make money by buying and selling shares? It does not make sense, or does it? I believe that it does make sense, as Analysts know that BA is overstaffed and deeper cuts could only be achieved as a result to the deeper losses that this strike has brought about.

There is, then, a real justification for BA to cut costs further, thus by cutting down on the man power. Which manpower? I would suspect that this will be the very manpower that has caused these great losses to the company.


that is just my opinion, no offence.

[Weather Map]

Swalesboy

Correct me if i'm wrong but if CR took place i thought it was against the law to rehire so soon.It would be a different case if it was VR.

[swalesboy]

Somebody mentioned on a previous thread that it was 3 months. Feel free to correct me on this.

Even if it is longer than 3 months, I am sure the companies that BA are chartering to cover part of there operation, would be more than happy of the extra business for as long as BA needs them.

[bacabincrew]

The rise in share price is also in part due to a number of factors including potential agreement on pensions, Iberia merger, AA tie up etc.

The truth of the matter is, this strike is damaging to the business as a whole. BA over the years have spent time, money and effort on getting Flight and Cabin Crew to work closer (CRM etc) - this has now been blown out of the water due to the actions in part of those breaking the strike and those who have had Crew suspended for Facebook etc There is now a massive distrust of the Flight Crew amongst a large number of Cabin Crew.

You need to remember that this strike is legal, Walsh could sack a striker, much as he could sack anyone he wanted too, however if he sacks one he has to sack them all. That will not happen in my opinion.

Furthermore the strike is actually more damaging than BA are saying - for example the flights out of LHR today not including the codeshares but including wet leases are as follows:

The flights below include wet leased flights but don't include codeshares

06:00 - 09:00 13 Cancelled 31 Departures
09:00 - 12:00 23 Cancelled 42 Planned
12:00 - 15:00 24 Cancelled 32 Planned
15:00 - 18:00 30 Cancelled 32 Planned
18:00 - 21:00 44 Cancelled 9 Planned
21:00 - 23:59 6 Cancelled 11 Planned

140 Cancellations 157 Planned to go

These are true figures - and as you can see nowhere near 70% Operating

47% Cancelled 53% Operating

Walsh cannot let this drag on, given that the Union have asked a number of times to get back round the table. He has let the Union have their strike and it has been much more successful than BA ever envisaged - now it's time to get it settled.

[luke77]

A quick question re Unite strikers compensation for loss of pay, as the end of the month approaches and the pay packets will be available for proof of claim.

Is it taxable?

I mean the £30.

If so, not much compensation.

Not much from Union that can give Labour over £11 million in the recent past :confused:

[bacabincrew]

Your post is irrelevant as Strike Pay is non-taxable

[winstonsmith]

UNITE is to pay for every strike day which BA deducts from an individual's roster - I would expect it will start happening next month - it won't happen overnight!

Could somebody explain following to me - I have been going through UNITE's 18 reasons as to why you should strike.

Why have they put down a two year pay freeze as a reason when it was initially suggested by BASSA? What am I missing?

[swalesboy]

Why is strike pay non taxable. If it is an income then surely it would atract the same taxation as normal pay?

Sounded like a perfectable civalised question to me, hardly irrelavant just because you don't like its inferance.

[bacabincrew]

As nothing was 'agreed' and it was then simply imposed - the fact that BASSA offered then becomes an irrelevance as BA imposed it unilaterally without agreement

[bacabincrew]

If so, not much compensation.

That part of the question was the irrelevant part as it is non-taxable and the reason it is non-taxable is that it is not earned income. It is, if you like, a part re-imbursement of your fees paid over time

[Hotel Mode]

These are true figures - and as you can see nowhere near 70% Operating

47% Cancelled 53% Operating

Walsh cannot let this drag on, given that the Union have asked a number of times to get back round the table. He has let the Union have their strike and it has been much more successful than BA ever envisaged - now it's time to get it settled.

It was 70% of Long haul operating, not 70% of all flights though. Up to 55% of short haul (more operating tomorrow to make up for deliberate reduction today). BA has not cancelled a single service they planned to operate because of crew not turning up. I'd say they judged it exactly right.

The strike has been exactly as BA planned, the only suprise they had was too many crew turning up last weekend. BA can last at this level a very very long time. Their contingency plans last until August. Most striking crew members have contingency plans that will last until they check epay this week.

[Runway vacated]

Walsh cannot let this drag on, given that the Union have asked a number of times to get back round the table. He has let the Union have their strike and it has been much more successful than BA ever envisaged - now it's time to get it settled.

I'm sorry BACabincrew, but I have to disagree strongly.

For a start, the number of departures does not necessarily reflect the numbers of passengers carried - substituting a 320 on a 319 route may enable a cancellation of another 319 service, but the same number of pax to be carried. They are just all on one aircraft.

Secondly, and more importantly, how can you describe a strike by a (supposedly "indispensable") section of the work force a success when the airline is able to run at least 65% of its' normal operation? A percentage that is increasing with every passing day.

The fact is that the strikers have found themselves TOTALLY marginalised within the company (remember, a significant number of the VCC are fellow UNITE members!) and increasingly irrelevant to the continued survival of the company.

Time is running out for sure, but for whom?

[StudentInDebt]

Another one to disagree BACabinCrew.

From Heathrow

Total number of flights operated today/planned to operate 143 (inc wetleases)
Total number of flights cancelled/planned cancelled 102 (inc freighters)

That gives an overall average of 71%

[bacabincrew]

Another one to disagree BACabinCrew.

Total number of flights operated today/planned to operate 143 (inc wetleases)
Total number of flights cancelled/planned cancelled 102 (inc freighters)

That gives an overall average of 71%

I suggest you visit flightstats.co.uk and do the maths from there - remember to take the codeshares out - you can then manually count the flight numbers and see the cancellations for yourself

[StudentInDebt]

My source is a little more accurate than flightstats but thanks for the suggestion :ok:

[Hotel Mode]

The fact remains whichever percentage you believe, that BA are flying the vast majority of its passengers whilst saving an absolute packet on the wages of striking cabin crew.

The short haul wet leases are cheaper/hr than BAs normal costs/hr.

I am assuming bacabincrew has forgotten about the existance of LGW and LCY? Thats another 80 odd departures to the good for BA.

[7Heroes]

Bacabincrew

Anyone can quote statistics to suit their arguement.

Its 70% of the passengers (180,000) that have flown not 70% of the aircraft that are operating.They are just using bigger planes with all the smaller ones parked up.

CRM is fine among the crew that are working now(if not better).When the strikers come back? I am sure it will change but will be no worse than what I have known over the last 20 years where a hard core bunch just hate the pilots for being pilots.Ho Hum I can live with that.

WW will probably not sack crew but if this dispute is still ongoing after 12 weeks then employment law becomes favourable towards the employer as long as they can show they have made reasonable offers towards the employees.So it wasn`t a good idea for Bassa to not let you read the offer or to not recommend it to you , as most think it was quite reasonable.Again a court would decide but Bassa have been woeful in all their court cases so far.

Bassa have no end game plan but I am sure WW does.

[bacabincrew]

CRM is fine among the crew that are working now(if not better).

It would be as half of them are Pilots ;) Thats a joke!!!!!!

I am sure it will change but will be no worse than what I have known over the last 20 years where a hard core bunch just hate the pilots for being pilots.

I agree that it will change and yes there are those who hate Pilots just because, can't include myself as my son's godfather is a 777 SFO

[ba.husband]

Well, regardless of numbers that have flown (frankly, as BA are misrepresenting and skewing the stats it's unlikely anyone could come out with a valid figure) and anything else that has passed to get us to this position, I think the case for crew striking is just getting stronger.

If, at this point, the union don't fight to retain staff travel, it becomes a useless service for everyone. Would you really want to be on a plane with crew who have lost their 'perks' while you were flying using them? It's now in all crew's interests to get that perk back for everyone and it looks as if facing off WW is the only way to achieve that.

Next, the basic fact that cuts are going to follow cuts are going to follow cuts. The argument 'BA crew are xx% more expensive' is not going to go away. It will be being rolled out repeatedly in the next few years until it's the other way around.

Not striking means that most won't use staff travel as it won't be returned to all. It means that we'll have annual rounds of cuts to the job and the amount you take home. I just don't see any argument for doing anything but striking anymore.

[Cough]

The airline has cancelled 30% of flights from the UK on Sunday, including 42% of Heathrow departures.

(from the BBC's latest missive on the flights) ie. The flights operating from LGW and City are included in the 70% operating, and as a %age, more have been cancelled at Heathrow. 75% target does relate to the whole operation with regard to passengers carried.

As to CRM. I had a whole load of poo at work last week from tues to fri. The nicest operating day was monday, with a bunch of crew who wanted to be there. Funny huh?

[christmaslights]

this has now been blown out of the water due to the actions in part of those breaking the strike and those who have had Crew suspended for Facebook etc

surely you mean by those who have decided that bullying and harassment were the way forward. Surely you MUST be happy to know that none of your colleagues (whether they are striking or not) are not at risk of being hurt by someone who has lost touch with boundaries and what is legal.

SURELY if anybody has threatened your friends or someone you love at work you would be happy to see them suspended, see the company take care of those who are being harassed?

Everybody has the right to make their choice, whatever their reasons. Nobody should be made scared because of what they decide to do.

Maybe this is what BASSA members need to remember: striking is legal, intimidating and threatening people IS NOT.

If my reaction seems excessive is because we should not tolerate threatening of any sort.

This is a work issue, this is about people having to make a decision on whether they want or can afford to go on strike. But the inflammatory tone used by the Union is making this personal, about WW, about each cabin crew who is breaking the strike, no matter for what reason, each volunteer, no matter why they are doing it. BASSA has the responsibility of ensuring that this does not become personal and that nobody's safety is at risk.

[swalesboy]

I certainly won't lose any sleep about crew losing staff travel. They were told catagorically what would happen if they went on strike so they have no complaints that Willie Walsh has followed through with what he promised.

Why would I be bothered if the crew on any flight I was on were being 'Grumpy' towards me. They don't allocate my seat, the check in staff who didn't go on strike do, whether its an ID90. Premium Standby or my ABC.

I for one don't really care what food/drink I get on a plane, it's a means to an end to get me and my family on holiday.

[7Heroes]

Bacabincrew

There`s an element of truth in what you say.My last flight I had one ground staff volunteer and 3 pilot volunteers.The ground staff chap looked totally overawed and incredibly nervous.
To put him at his ease I just said `don`t worry - there`s 3 people over there who have got less of a clue than you`.Ice broken and everyone laughed.From then on everything was fine and no problem with CRM.But point taken

[Skinnydip]

Christmas lights.

Well said. Weeks before the strike started when I dared to voice an opinion that others didn't like I was told to get out of the union as my views weren't welcome. As you can imagine the language used was alot more colourful than Ive posted but I won't lower myself to repeat it. There are policies in place that are supposed to protect colleagues from harrasment, however evidently there is still some intimidation happening. I might not agree with the reason
for striking but I respect someones wish to do so. This should be reciprocated, however and people be allowed to come to work with dignity. Anyone bullying others should not be allowed anywhere near an aircraft as this could seriously compromise safety.

[BentleyH]

Still don't understand the contradictory messages about staff travel. One minute it's imperative to get them back and the next minute members on the radio are saying that they aren't important as not really a perk because it's much cheaper to travel with low cost airlines and most crew don't use them. Which one is it?

[Litebulbs]

Does anybody on here know the total amount of pax that BA carried this time last year, against the 180,000 it has announced?

I am asking those people who "hear" things, or have "sources". It is only that I "hear" that BA handled between 4 and 8 thousand less passengers at my base, over the strike dates, than they would normally carry. This is at a base with almost no flight disruption.

[Hotel Mode]

I am asking those people who "hear" things, or have "sources". It is only that I "hear" that BA handled between 4 and 8 thousand less passengers at my base, over the strike dates, than they would normally carry. This is at a base with almost no flight disruption.

Its also the base with 10 less aircraft based there than this time last year (at least 4000 daily seats [100 per flt, 4 sectors per day] so 12000 over last strike and 16000 over this). Is like being compared with like (not saying it isnt.) How many less than 2 weeks ago for example?

Also 30% of the shorthaul flights were cancelled there last weekend so hardly no flight disruption.

[christmaslights]

even though it might be cheaper to buy a commercial ticket what staff travel offers is the flexibility... commercial tickets are non refundable, non changeable, subject to conditions such as Sat night stay etc.... definitely not good for someone that commutes nor for a last minute holiday... even hotlines have got conditions so no thinking that hotlines can be a replacement :}

Even staff on their annual concessions change their mind on the dates, cancel and rebook because they can... this is not something cool to say to the BBC but it is certainly something important especially for staff that have relatives or friends abroad.

[Litebulbs]

Its also the base with 10 less aircraft based there than this time last year (at least 4000 daily seats [100 per flt, 4 sectors per day] so 12000 over last strike and 16000 over this). Is like being compared with like (not saying it isnt.) How many less than 2 weeks ago for example?

Also 30% of the shorthaul flights were cancelled there last weekend so hardly no flight disruption.

I was having a go at spin. Probably need a bit more practice!

[christmaslights]

good point... comparisons to last year have to be used in the contest of the capacity changes. This is why ASK and RPKs are used in business reviews.

I don't think BA has ever tried to say that this strike wasn't going to be hurting the company. The point that some people seem to miss is that flights were cancelled in advance. Customers have been given as much time as possible to be able to change their plans, get a refund or stick with BA. For those who did stick with us, the main issue is that we do not cancel anymore on the day they are supposed to be flying. That's the test: we have not cancelled your flight, we have promised you we will be operating (customers on wet lease have been informed it was not a BA service) and we have not let you down on the day of departure. That's all. :ugh:

[Hotel Mode]

I was having a go at spin. Probably need a bit more practice!

I dont know, I bet a paper would publish it, they dont seem that bothered about checking stats! :ok:

[Litebulbs]

How many less than 2 weeks ago for example?

But on this part alone, the figure that actually flew stood out from the norm.

[winstonsmith]

Staff travel means a lot to crew - no point in denying that! The tickets might be expensier than on some airlines but ID tickets give the flexibility which particulary commuting crew needs - they are also refundable and re-bookable even if you have missed your flight.

It should be interesting to see how striking commuters will get to work in two weeks - some are saying it's Willie Walsh's fault if flights won't get crewed as he has withdrawn staff travel for strikers so they can't get to work. Maybe they should remind themselves that it's their responsibility to get to work - don't expect any sympathy from OST when they call and say they can't get to work - make a habit of it and they won't have a job.

[midman]

frankly, as BA are misrepresenting and skewing the stats it's unlikely anyone could come out with a valid figure Well, who would you be more inclined to believe, Bassa who state 5 crewmembers crossed the picket line last Saturday, and 26 on the Sunday, 20 aircraft at Shannon and 20 at Cardiff, pilots getting £500 to do the cabin crew course etc? Or BA who have a legal obligation to publish true traffic stats and would do more damage to the share price than cabin crew could ever do if the City had no confidence in its trading statements?

, at this point, the union don't fight to retain staff travel, it becomes a useless service for everyone. Would you really want to be on a plane with crew who have lost their 'perks' while you were flying using them? It wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Why should I not want to be on a plane with a striker whilst I used my staff travel tickets?


Next, the basic fact that cuts are going to follow cuts are going to follow cuts. The argument 'BA crew are xx% more expensive' is not going to go away. It will be being rolled out repeatedly in the next few years until it's the other way around. It's not a basic fact. What's a basic fact? Just because you call it a basic fact doesn't make it a fact! WW has said that as a premium airline he wants to attract the best candidates. To achieve that he wants to pay market rate + 10% for new recruits. He also said he didn't want to reduce the pay of current cabin crew, hence the choice to go to Monthly Travel payments. Plus food allowances would remain.


Not striking means that most won't use staff travel as it won't be returned to all. Why? I don't follow your logic. Surely by not striking, you are jumping ahead of all those who used to be ahead in the staff travel bunfight.
I just don't see any argument for doing anything but striking anymore.
I see no reason to strike at all. Take the offer WW will make, keep your staff travel, get paid, and have a great time at work!

[ShandyBoy]

Understand change was finally imposed, but to be fair BA had been trying to consult and negotiate with the unions for several months, not helped by internal union politics that meant the Unite union weren't particularly 'united' in their position, making the discussions somewhat difficult.

So, whilst the company is hemorrhaging money, the un-united unite union are playing silly beggars :ugh:

The board and management have a duty to protect the long term viability of the company on a number of fronts, and whilst it is always preferable to seek agreement on any changes, there has to come a point when enough is enough and they must act. Furthermore, the courts have subsequently decided that the changes BA made (including reducing crew complement) were lawful and reasonable.

From my understanding, not all changes need to be agreed beforehand, only those that directly impact the agreed contract between the two parties. So, whilst many crew do not like the changes, they were necessary and deemed legal and reasonable :ok:

Accepting there's a number of concerns from crew (justified or otherwise), I believe the reduction of a crew member became central to the issue as to why the union couldn't reach agreement last year, and in hindsight, now seems a little sad that we've ended up where we have, and for what :sad:

[dwshimoda]

A genuine question:

If Staff Travel is deemed not a perk by Unite, and therefore cannot be removed legally, then what if HMRC suddenly decides it is a benefit in kind?

How would they tax it, and how far back could they go? Could this mean some commuters ending up with a significant tax bill?

I'm just asking a question out loud as I don't know.

DW.

[BA-BEANCOUNTER]

It doesn't matter if the benefit is contractual or not
Fir instance long service awards, good idea schemes, and staff parties etc can be taxed under certain circumstances, none of which relate to whether they are contractual or not.

In most cases, you don't see the tax as it is paid by the employer under a PSA agreement


An ID90 is deemed to cost the company less than the amount paid by the employee so no tax is payable.
An ID100 is taxable, but the employer pays the tax for you (at least they did 3 years ago when I worked for BA) under a PSA agreement.

Hope this helps

[Caribbean Boy]

bacabincrew (http://www.pprune.org/members/324047-bacabincrew) wrote:

Furthermore the strike is actually more damaging than BA are saying - for example the flights out of LHR today not including the codeshares but including wet leases are as follows:

The flights below include wet leased flights but don't include codeshares

06:00 - 09:00 13 Cancelled 31 Departures
09:00 - 12:00 23 Cancelled 42 Planned
12:00 - 15:00 24 Cancelled 32 Planned
15:00 - 18:00 30 Cancelled 32 Planned
18:00 - 21:00 44 Cancelled 9 Planned
21:00 - 23:59 6 Cancelled 11 Planned

140 Cancellations 157 Planned to go

These are true figures - and as you can see nowhere near 70% Operating

47% Cancelled 53% OperatingWhere did you get your figures from. Here are the planned and cancelled flights between 0600 and 1200 today from LHR (excludes codeshares on IB, AY, etc):

Time Total Cancelled
0600-0700 3 1
0700-0800 22 9
0800-0900 19 2
0900-1000 24 8
1000-1100 16 4
1100-1200 22 8

Total planned flights 106, total cancellations 32. So, BA operated 74 flights or 70% of flights, which is better than the plan.

[dwshimoda]

Thanks for the explanation.

Thought it could have been opening a can of worms, but seems safe enough.

DW.

[Golden Ticket]

Sorry, is 106 flights the plan or the normal none strike schedule. If 106 is the plan during industrial action then they've flown 70% of the plan. I thought BA was looking to fly 100% of the plan which would be 70% of normal. :confused:

[Hotel Mode]

Sorry, is 106 flights the plan or the normal none strike schedule.

Normal non strike schedule. Still no cancellations on any day of the strike in addition.

[Blink182]

Several Engineers that I work with at BA have resigned from Unite this week...........the antics of BASSA and with Unite supporting them and spreading the distortions and outright lies over the last 10 days or so has finally tipped them over the edge........... ( the infamous "ill maintained aircraft " jibe probably the final straw ).......still it beats me as to why they were still with them anyway.......Unite / Amicus have never represented the views and needs of the professional Licensed engineers

Unites loss .....= ALAEs gain :ok:

I Hope all the Pickets enjoyed their "Fun Day " today :rolleyes:........... I think that they will have to get used to a lot more leisure time in the future, all that face painting etc will come in useful to fill all those long hours idling at home !!

[Wobbler]

BACABINCREW

Genuine question:

With over 60% of crew turning up for work (and yes - having been in CRC last Monday, yesterday and today I think BA's figures are fairly accurate), do you consider that Unite/BASSA are currently representing the views of the majority of BA Cabin Crew?

[Eddy]

Christmaslights,
Good point. I was just thinking today that there's been a lot of talk of striking crew making life a little tricky for non-striking crew. But there's been no mention of non-striking crew making life tricky for strikers.

What is it that makes striking employees (changed to "employees" as opposed to "crew" as this is probably the norm across all unionised workforces) more likely to bully and intimidate?! I know I won't engage in that sort of behaviour. And I know the absolute majority of my colleagues - regardless of their position - are the same.

[Get Smart]

Hello Eddy :) You're right it does cut both ways. Last time you signed off you said you'd post us your account but I haven't seen it or have I missed it? :confused:

[Viewfrom5Bells]

On Channel 4 news at 18:30 Bryan Boyd admitted that Gatwick is working normally with words to the effect that the main issues are at LHR and that LGW doesn't really matter

[Eddy]

Hi there GS. I have it typed up but am in two minds as to whether or not to post it :sad::uhoh:. I'm also adding to it all the time..... :hmm:

[TURIN]

Blink 182

Many of us left Unite/Amicus a while ago. This latest own goal has just made a load of the apathetic suddenly sit up and realise who they are supporting.

ALAE all the way. :ok:

[Doors To Manuel]

I have it typed up but am in two minds as to whether or not to post it

Eddy, choose the mind which says 'yes'. From the quality of your posts I think it would be a breath of fresh air. Go for it:D

[BentleyH]

Unite certainly seem to be doing a good job of trying to put down anyone who isn't a picket. Shame they aren't using this energy to represent their members properly. I was really appalled at what they implied. I wonder who will be next on their agenda. Is there anyone else left?

[christmaslights]

What is it that makes striking employees (changed to "employees" as opposed to "crew" as this is probably the norm across all unionised workforces) more likely to bully and intimidate?! I know I won't engage in that sort of behaviour. And I know the absolute majority of my colleagues - regardless of their position - are the same.

Absolutely right... I wrote my post probably too quickly and even if I tried to keep my distance from taking sides, in hindsight, it reads directed to BASSA mainly. But it isn't meant to be, as you say nobody should engage with that sort of behaviour no matter what. :D

[Blink182]

Turin.......
yep, many left Unite including me a few years back over the Rimmergate affair .....

I think a lot of non CC BA employees are questioning why their union are supporting a section that are hell bent on destroying the airline ( as it turns out , all they are doing is self destructing , but that is not the point ) How could anyone be happy that their union dues are being squandered on fighting a un-winnable and lost casuse, and being distruibted to to very people who are causing this disruption is beyond me....:ugh:

[Eddy]

I was really appalled at what they implied.What did they imply?

[Caribbean Boy]

Viewfrom5Bells (http://www.pprune.org/members/164672-viewfrom5bells) wrote:
On Channel 4 news at 18:30 Bryan Boyd admitted that Gatwick is working normally with words to the effect that the main issues are at LHR and that LGW doesn't really matterI've looked at the C4 footage. The interviewer said: "You represent them [Gatwick crew] but you haven't carried them, they're going to work."

Boyd replied: "The thrust of the attack on our members from the company is concentrated on the worldwide fleet at Heathrow, and that's why we are doubling our efforts here at Heathrow today."

[India Sierra]

Posted off my resignation from Unite today and am joining ALAE.

The last straw was Unite's remarks about ill maintained aircraft. I heard Gary Copeland was going to start legal action. Is that true or just a rumour?

[BentleyH]

That somehow BA aircraft are not safe to fly on. I also read an Engineer comment that it had been suggested to them that aircraft be returned ill- maintained.

[Eddy]

I may have missed it, so apologies, but could you refer me to the source of that allegation ?

[me myself and fly]

http://www.bassa.co.uk/bassa/downloads/NewsArticlePDFFile-842.pdf
Page 11
Access to Aircraft Type
Secure access for current crew on new aircraft types to ensure we are not left to simply wither on the vine… on an ageing fleet of old, broken, ill maintained aircraft. If British Airways wants to allocate all new A/C on a commercial cost basis, we all know exactly where that will be….New Fleet.

Was that the quote ?

[JackMcHammocklashing]

Employment income: strike pay from trade unions (http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/eimanual/EIM06500.htm)

Non taxable


NON BA STAFF OR CABING CREW SORRY,
Just providing LEGAL FACTS

Jack McHammocklashing

[Eddy]

I don't blame BA for not investing in new planes as much as they maybe should.... The way some crew treat the aircraft astonishes me.

Why do people feel the need to write the aircraft reg scruffily all over the walls of the plane? And the type on bunks onboard (old or new)? And those Bassa stickers.... I've said it before; I appreciate that Bassa was trying to spread the word but these stickers encouraged vandalism. They were made deliberately difficult to remove.

Regardless of one's support for Bassa, it's difficult to see these stickers as anything but an eyesore.

[Spanner in the works]

Oh - and not sure if anyone is suing over the quote, but a full public retraction and apology has been demanded.

To be fair - the Engineering side of Unite were just as peeved about it apparently.

Another example of an ill thought-out, soundbite.

[Spanner in the works]

New planes or old - makes no difference to how they are maintained Eddy.
To imply otherwise is astonishingly outrageous, not to mention insulting to the Engineers that work on them.

[TURIN]

This is part of the UNITE letter sent out to BA Engineers

In the lead up to industrial action taking place a number of communications were circulated by Unite Cabin Crew Reps and BA management. These were attempts by both parties to state the positions they had adopted and explain the reasons why. Unfortunately one of the documents released by Unite made reference to existing Cabin Crew employees being left to operate"ageing and ill maintained aircraft" These comments were inconsiderate towards Unite Engineering members and at best misplaced. We personally have taken this up with your Cabin Crew colleagues and we understand that your Engineering Convenor Ian Kemp has invited Cabin Crew Reps to a future Unite Engineering Group meeting to discuss the detail of the document with Unite colleagues.
On a personal basis we want to assure you that the high standard of skill and quality our engineering members constantly exerise while contributing to the success of BA Engineering is something that this Union is proud of and we know you are. There was certainly no deliberate attempt to undermine your achievements in anyway. We do understand that it may have seemed like that, if so please accept our apologies.
This aside we have noted that in some E Mailed letters of complaint individuals have taken it upon themselves to include Senior BA Management in their list of recipients. We would ask you to refrain from this practice particularly at this difficult period as this may be used in a divisive and disingenuous manner. We also understand that some disenfranchised Unite members are actively encouraging membership of one of our affiliated sister trade unions, Prospect.While we have every respect for the work Prospect undertakes in a number of industries it has no collective bargaining rights within BA. We have spoken to our good colleagues on this matter who have given us assurances that this practice will stop forthwith. In fact the general secretary of Prospect has only last week sent a strong letter of solidarity to Unite wishing thec union success in resolving the current dispute.
We know that the unite national and regional officers have a very good relationship with our Senior Workplace Reps at BA engineering. A number of your reps are delegates to the new Regional and National industrial Senior Sector Committes with regular workplace visits taking place. We fully acknowledge the positive contribution Unite workplace Reps made during the recent negotiations to develop a single working agreement and consider our Aviation Engineering membership throughout the UK to be an integral part of the new Unite CAT structures. Please do not allow anyone to convince you otherwise. If there are occasions when you and your colleagues take issue with Unite we want you to discuss and resolve matters with your reps and full time officers.

Best I don't print what I really think of that. :mad:

[dwshimoda]

May I refer you to post #427:

I like to say thanks to Tony Woodley and Derek Simpson for sending my late (ex engineer, deceased two years ago, retired from BA three years ago) father a letter apologising for their comments regarding 'BA's ill maintained aircraft'.

No wonder they can't organise a legitimate ballot.

These people don't think/care about anyone other than themselves, and the power they desire to wield.

[Hotel Mode]

At least it was proof read, unlike BASSAs latest which ends


COME TO BEDFONT, WE NEED YOU! OUR STRIKE IS WORKING BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF IT.


Oopsy daisy :rolleyes:

[Sopwithpuppy]

Just heard from mouth of the horse that another jumbo has gone out with nearly full crew complement!:D

[ShandyBoy]

By suggesting the BA fleet is poorly maintained is yet another piece of propoganda and just goes to show the depths the union have sunk to, not to mention is a slur on every person in maintenance. BA Engineering are world leaders in what they do and to question their professionalism is a disgrace. I just hope the engineers let their disgust be known to the union that is supposed to be representing their interests. That's right, the same union that is serving our cabin crew colleagues so well .......... and just to add insult to injury, they have the audacity to take your union subs for the 'service' they provide. Well, I guess they need to pay for the bouncy castles and trips to Bangkok somehow :rolleyes:

The union lies and mischief making is getting out of control and would be laughable if it wasn't so serious :E

[Eddy]

To imply otherwise is astonishingly outrageous, not to mention insulting to the Engineers that work on them.I agree entirely, but wonder if you're taking things a little to the extreme?!

I don't think anyone was suggesting that any crew member gets on a plane and fears for his or her safety when getting on a jet. We wouldn't go if we did, afterall.

But you can look through the tech log and see problems that just don't seem to get fixed.

I don't blame the engineers for this - I'm sure time constraints are to blame - but "ill maintained" doesn't imply substandard performance on the part of our (amazing) engineers.

[Flying Fred]

COME TO BEDFONT, WE NEED YOU! OUR STRIKE IS WORKING BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE NOT PART OF IT.

Also from the latest BASSA missive....

After eagle eyed crew revealed the truth about mounting cancellations by simply monitoring BA.com. They are now attempting to conceal cancellations and empty departures by removing the F for “Freighter” prefix to the flight number and instead have added a one so the BA039 becomes the BA1039 in the departures. To the untrained eye it looks as though many more flights are departing. They are not, these are empty positioning aircraft because they have no crew. It’s concealment on a substantial scale, to try and win the PR battle, simply take a look for your self before they disguise it another way and you should be able to see this quite easily.

er...... the BA1039 is a 777 that departs LHR every Tuesday for Beijing. The reason for the '1' in front is nothing to do with BASSA paranoia. The return flight, BA1038 departs PEK at 2320Z, about four hours earlier than the normal BA038, which departs at 0315Z. The '1' is placed in front of the flight to distinguish is from the BA038 which also departs on GMT Tuesday.

To the untrained eye

Indeed.......

FF

[Newyorker001]

It's something that has not really been debated on here and I would like to know the views of everyone about LGW turnout! is it that it is no real surprise that they have had nearly 100% turnout and as such is not really mentioned. What is it that has made one part of the crew turn up and virtually stick two fingers up at thier LHR ... Brothers and sisters ... I would be keen to know what effect this is having on striking crew and the views of some LGW crew as to why

[gatbusdriver]

I drove past the South Terminal this morning on the A23, I noticed plenty of Unite flags on the grass verge, but only three picketers (although one of them was very enthusiatic in his flag waving).

It would seem that they are giving up on LGW and concentrating all their efforts on LHR (as has been suggested already).

[Dr Stoke]

How's about this for a possible WW "end-game" choice for striking crew?

A: Stay on current contract with no staff travel.

OR

B: Offer New Fleet contracts to them with staff travel perk re-instated and new date of joining.

This way strikers are punished for damaging the company whilst loyal staff are rewarded. BASSA is destroyed and WW achieves his objectives.

Certainly some striking crew will value staff-travel differently. But to lose it FOREVER is something they possibly haven't given enough consideration to.

Just a thought.

[Spanner in the works]

I don't blame the engineers for this - I'm sure time constraints are to blame - but "ill maintained" doesn't imply substandard performance on the part of our (amazing) engineers.

Yes it does - unless the statement is qualified. It wasn't.

[Express1]

Engineers are not the only ones leaving Unite. I am ground staff and have left and I also know of others doing the same or thinking of it.

Unite can continue to deny that we are getting flights away, but we will continue to work hard to get customers away with the many crew who turn up.

[M.Mouse]

The latest pitiful text message doing the rounds:

"In a recent vote of no confidence in Willie by the board, 6 board members voted no confidence, however 7 voted against. Spread the word."

As I said pitiful apart from being wholly untrue.

[luke77]

BA workers aren't the only workers leaving Unite on this after the "12 days of Christmas" which infuriated my sister, who is under the Unite mushroom cloud elsewhere

[Juan Tugoh]

There are only 10 BA Board members

BA Board (http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=69499&p=irol-govBoard)

[MrMe]

That is funny.

[Litebulbs]

Just one quick note about BA Engineers. The majority are the best paid in the UK. That was a deal sorted out by Unite(amicus/aeeu/aeu/eetpu).

[strikemaster82]

Eddy

But you can look through the tech log and see problems that just don't seem to get fixed.


May I suggest, as a BA pilot, you are way out of line here, with greatest respect, please stick to areas you are competent to comment on?

Unless you have an understanding of our MEL documents? If so, then what is the basis of your comment?

In a very southern destination at the mo, full aeroplane down here, huge round of applause from the waiting pax as the crew arrived at the gate, 12 cabin crew, 2 volunteers amongst them, very heavy BA management support for crew at destination, booked full load back to UK on Tuesday night. Crew very onside despite ops in a -400 with only 12. Strikers seem very irrelevant from here.

[subject to load]

Strikers seem very irrelevant from here.you'll find when you get back to base they're gradually becoming somewhat irrelevant here too !

[Locked door]

Litebulbs,

The engineers were the best paid in the UK before UNITE got involved, just as most work groups in BA are for historical reasons. The fact that UNITE were involved is purely coincidence, any union could have been representing them (or in fact no union) and they'd have had a similar result.

Re the latest missives from BASSA ref the board vote and other untruths, is there no way they can be prosecuted for telling such blatant lies?

Frustrated employee

LD

[bacabincrew]

May I suggest, as a BA pilot, you are way out of line here, with greatest respect, please stick to areas you are competent to comment on?

How condescending.

[gatbusdriver]

Not really.

Quick question for Eddy, how often does he get to look through the tech log, what problems does he generally see, and what does he know about the MEL and deferred defects?

[bacabincrew]

How often do Pilots look at the ever growing list of un-fixed Cabin Defects that we have to put up with? The cabin interiors are a joke on many of our aircraft.

If you want to be superior cant you go and start your own thread 'I know more than you know'

[MrBunker]

How often do Pilots look at the ever growing list of un-fixed Cabin Defects that we have to put up with? The cabin interiors are a joke on many of our aircraft.

Sorry, unusually for you, that's an own goal. We look at the AML Part 2 every time we fly.

[bacabincrew]

Hi MrB - I was being a little tongue-in-cheek there - thats the big bug bear of crew - the poorly maintained interiors - again nothing to with the engineers as there is only so much the guys can do.

[Seabiscuit]

bacabincrew....every single flight we review the cabing log and check it against said MEL (legal requirement), shame you don't know that.....maybe you should get your head back in the books concentrate on your job than spend your time on here spouting all the union lines.
SB

[Eddy]

Quick question for Eddy

how often does he get to look through the tech logAlmost every sector. When I spot a defect personally, I'll endeavour to put it in the book myself. God knows when one will have to work up. Also, I like looking at where certain planes have been. It's the plane spotter in me fighting desperately to get out.

what problems does he generally seeBroken IFE that goes unfixed, blocked sinks, carpet-gaps (seldom reported, I grant you)

what does he know about the MELIt's in Australia.

what does he know about deferred defects?They're ones someone doesn't have time to fix?

[MrBunker]

Bacabincrew,

My apologies - had only just woken up! I agree fwiw on the state of some a/c interiors. Having been on one of the new 777s recently, there's a world of difference but, as you rightly point out, not the engineering department's fault.

As for McCluskey's comments, once again have they been backed up with verifiable evidence? I'd have assumed, if true, the BBC would have been all over it like a cheap suit.

MrB

[Eddy]

BA's own figures tell a different story. But who to believe?!

Personally, I sat at LHR for about 7 hours yesterday and saw plenty of BA movements. Not nearly as many as I'd normally have expected, but still a significant number. And also a number of charter plane movements.

[gatbusdriver]

Apologies Eddy

I inferred from your post that you were referring to the tech log as opposed to cabin defects.

Although I do believe it was a poor choice of words to suggest that the aircraft are ill maintained, that conjures up ideas of unsafe aircraft, this would rightly annoy any engineer.

Regards

GTB

[flapsforty]

Cabin defects have a negative impact on pax comfort, and pax will let CC know this. Cabin defects can also increase CC´s physical workload or negatively impact the service CC are able to provide.

An ever growing list of deferred cabin problems, while not affecting the airworthiness of an aircraft, is indeed a major negative for CC.

It is management, not the engineers, who are directly responsible for the length of the DDL. Management, not the engineers, decide that the law of maximum fixing times is a goal rather than a line in the sand.

Of course, Captains have the authority not to accept an aircraft with too many (legal) cabin defects. Such a decision always makes for miraculous and quick repairs. :ok:

To avoid thread derailment, can we please agree that the following definitions are more or less generally accepted in civil aviation?



MEL: minimum equipment list (http://learningcenter.airlines.org/Pages/minimum%20equipment%20list%20.aspx)
A FAA-mandated list of aircraft equipment that must be functioning before an aircraft may legally take off with passengers. Repairs to some items not essential to an aircraft’s airworthiness may be deferred for limited periods of time approved by the FAA.

CDL - Cabin Discrepancy Log (http://books.google.no/books?id=rOQGhWXDS_YC&pg=PA320&lpg=PA320&dq=Cabin+Discrepancy+Log&source=bl&ots=x1e4cPHMdM&sig=4-ET3gyrMLzdcCbyXGZK1yGLVtw&hl=no&ei=z4iwS8r5LsPn-Qbj4_W2DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Cabin%20Discrepancy%20Log&f=false)
CML - Cabin Maintenance Log
Cabin log used by cabin attendants to record non-airworthiness discrepancies encountered in the passenger cabin and correctice actions taken by maintenance.


DDL - Deferred Defects List
Certain defects may be deferred if there is a shortfall in the parts to rectify them, or insufficient time is available to allow the engineers the opportunity to clear them. Defects should not be deferred without prior reference to and in accordance with the Minimum Equipment List (MEL) sometimes known as the Allowable Deficiency List. Deferred defects are to be listed in the appropriate section of the Technical Log to give visibility to the aircrew and ground crews. The detail recorded in the deferred defect entry will include cross references to the Technical Log page the defect was originally entered on, and a limit by which time it is to be rectified. The re-deferral of defects on reaching the target limit should not be automatic, but should be controlled by a higher authority, such as Quality Assurance. Therefore all deferred defects must be subject to review at regular intervals, and this review period should be controlled by company documentation.


EASA (http://www.easa.europa.eu/ws_prod/r/r_faq_the3.php)
Can defects that will not hazard the flight safety be deferred by the pilot according to the approved minimum equipment list "MEL"?
A pilot always makes use of the MEL, the technician proposes to defer defects according to the MEL but the pilot accepts or not. This is how the MEL works. The MEL allows continuing operation with specific equipment unserviceable when the dispatch conditions are specified in the MEL. The continuation of operation is limited by the rectification interval

Please put the MEL / DDL / LAMEs discussion to bed now and move on.

[nurjio]

If, as McCluskey claims, bullying BA management are at it again, why hasn't BASSA filed specific charges against the bullies?

He claims that some of the 'pawlits' have been bullies - no one is suspended.

In the history of industrial unrest, I cannot remember a group of 'misguided' employees so isolated in their cause -so coralled by self-serving leaders. There is not one coherent argument, anywhere in support of the CC cause, that carries acumen, which is a reflection of the 'questionable intellect' of the leadership (IMHO).

Finally, to all BASSA strike supporters. The chair of BASSA is,( IMHO again), marooned. She stands in the way of progress. This dispute has revealed the change in the arline industry away from the 'halcyon days' - an era which also included, to a degree, myopic management - Mr Walsh is very different, he stands firm, with a mandate to deliver a business model that can compete and prosper.

With the recent developments with Aer Lingus as an example of what will probably happen eventually, a good many BA CC are going to get very emotional.

[Finnster]

mostly its time restraints blocked sink could take all night to fix if you have to get at some of the more buried pipes , might help if cc did not think of a sink as a receptacle for food products split tea bags , coffee etc!

[MrMe]

could be many reasons
...maybe cost of delay is greater than cost of defect

EDIT : Oh other post has gone !

[flapsforty]

Put it to bed people!

[Hotel Mode]

Just been flagged up elsewhere.

PLEASE DO NOT POST FIGURES FROM YOUR PAY SLIPS.

THIS FORUM IS MONITORED BY THE COMPANY AND ANY INFORMATION GATHERED CAN BE PASSED ON TO THE MEDIA.

THIS WILL BE SUBSEQUENTLY BE USED AGAINST US.

ANY FURTHER POSTS WILL BE AUTOMATICALLY DELETED.

FIRST AND FINAL WARNING

BASSA MODERATOR

BA already know how much they deducted from your pay, because they are the ones that did it. :ugh:

So why would BASSA not want this info on their forum really??

[Fargoo]

Any of our pilots care to comment on this latest missive?

Cost-cutting goes into reverse as BA strike-breakers become world's most expensive cabin crew (http://www.unitetheunion.org/news__events/latest_news/cost-cutting_goes_into_reverse.aspx?lang=en-gb)

:confused:

[Hotel Mode]

Any of our pilots care to comment on this latest missive?


The reality is that flying 8 crew instead of 11, and paying pilots fixed rate allowances makes the marginal cost much cheaper for BA.

Anyway, only 14 volunteers flew yesterday, too many normal crew.

Theres a lot of "believes" and "estmates" in there. 2100 crew per day for example, thats overstated by a factor of 2 at least. Whilst they can only estimate the number of crew required they can state exactly the number (359) that turned up, but then chuck in a suspiciously round 100 ICCs.

Made up, from beginning to end.

[Eddy]

There are some of us who Bassa would probably LOVE to post their pay slip details.... Let the public REALLY see what a growing majority of crew earn (a very average wage, albeit very decent for what I do).

[ILS27LEFT]

I normally trust Sky News so I tend to trust them more than our beloved Mr Walsh. :mad:

> YouTube - SKY Live At Five (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy8c6N-xqng)

[Hotel Mode]

I normally trust Sky News so I tend to trust them more than our beloved Mr Walsh

Well BA arent including codeshares in their figures, but it suits BASSAs press releases if they do. BA had run most shorthaul earlier in the day with larger aircraft and created a firebreak for exactly the hours SKY conveniently used. Very few LH deps at that time as well. Oh and it left out Gatwick and LCY (or are we now pretending they dont exist?)

BA have still not cancelled a single additional flight during either strike period. Enough crew have turned up for the advertised services.

You can of course believe what you like.

[Fargoo]

Quote:
Any of our pilots care to comment on this latest missive?
The reality is that flying 8 crew instead of 11, and paying pilots fixed rate allowances makes the marginal cost much cheaper for BA.

Anyway, only 14 volunteers flew yesterday, too many normal crew.

Theres a lot of "believes" and "estmates" in there. 2100 crew per day for example, thats overstated by a factor of 2 at least. Whilst they can only estimate the number of crew required they can state exactly the number (359) that turned up, but then chuck in a suspiciously round 100 ICCs.

Made up, from beginning to end.

What I meant, is the hourly rate stated true. Other volunteers for CC only get a fixed payment which is vastly different to that figure.

Just curious to know how they worked out such a precise hourly rate :confused:

[Hotel Mode]

Just curious to know how they worked out such a precise hourly rate

Ah I see, guessed? I think they just took their made up figure of pilots pay and divided it by 900.

Allowances wise, (ie the marginal cost as we'd have been stood idle otherwise) is £2.80 ish from check in to check out. Much, Much cheaper than the normal crewing situation.

[M2dude]

The total professionalism, the dedication to our customers, the GENUINE SMILES that I have seen emminating both from the operating CC and customers alike.. It is a true pleasure to see the folks that are operating as CC on our aircraft over the past two days; they are a credit to themselves and to the airline. This so called rag tag band of non-striking CC, pilots, engineers and ground staff show us all how to behave and act with dignity and TRUE professionalism, and are doing an incredible job. From us, the rest of the airline, a heartfelt thank you to all. If some of 'McCluskey's Morons' could see what a great job these guys and gals are doing right now, maybe they should worrry after all. Oh, and not a single broken Crew Rest Area door lock reported in the CDL.
:D

[Litebulbs]

Locked door,
Have you had much experience of what it is like to be consulted with, rather than negotiating on behalf of? It was around 93 and BPR that drove the wages up, though negotiation, as you would know of you were involved.

I have and to suggest that BA would just hand out the best terms and conditions would be a bit naive.

[HiFlyer14]

The truth of the matter is, this strike is damaging to the business as a whole. BA over the years have spent time, money and effort on getting Flight and Cabin Crew to work closer (CRM etc) - this has now been blown out of the water due to the actions in part of those breaking the strike and those who have had Crew suspended for Facebook etc There is now a massive distrust of the Flight Crew amongst a large number of Cabin Crew
BAcabincrew - Sorry mate, but you couldn't be further from the truth.

The facts are - those that have broken the strike are greater in number than those that haven't. I was going to send a picture from T5 on Saturday just to show the amount of people in the departures lounge. It was like a normal day.

Distrust of pilots? Absolutely not. There is a massive sense of teamwork now between Flight Crew and Cabin Crew. The joint briefing is a huge success. The support the Flight Crew have given us has been superb, and the camaraderie now is brilliant. Crews (flight and cabin) are all meeting up for drinks downroute, and there has been a huge change in mindset. No amount of training could have achieved that.:D

Look mate, you can listen to the BASSA spin if that's what you believe. But I operated out of T5 on Saturday and I saw for myself. Lots of crew. Lots of passengers. Lots of flights. The ground staff are all praising us. The customers are all praising us. I feel like I did when I first joined BA umpteen years ago - proud.

My rostered flight went to plan on Saturday - we were only one crew member down and had to get someone from standby. They were sent out to the aircraft when passengers had boarded - and all the passengers applauded. We had a superb time on the trip - crew morale (on strike days anyway:)) is the highest I have ever seen it. I didn't even realise it was a strike day to be frank!

Nobody is against you. Infact, we all want the best for you and all our colleagues. I am deeply worried about my friends and colleagues who are still blindly supporting BASSA. But the ones who are coming to work know that the BASSA texts and emails are all lies. We know it's lies because we are sitting in the coffee shop when the text comes in saying "only 5 crew reported" - and there isn't a chair to be had. We know it's lies because I was putting my uniform on on Saturday morning to report for work when Unite stated on the TV that there would be NO departures - any crew you see will be arriving crew. We know it's lies because the "I went to work letter" implies that it's all volunteers - yet I haven't worked with a volunteer yet (more's the pity!).

We have no reason to lie to you. We want you to know the truth because - in true crew spirit - we all look after each other. BASSA/Unite are selling you down the river. Please, please believe us. Do yourself a favour - read everything and find out the truth. And then come and join us for a drink in the bar - downroute.:ok:

[MissM]

There are some of us who Bassa would probably LOVE to post their pay slip details.... Let the public REALLY see what a growing majority of crew earn (a very average wage, albeit very decent for what I do).I could post my pay details as I have nothing to hide.

Basic pay is £29.700 (this is an approximate for a full-time contract but as I'm 75% it's less than that) a year excluding meal allowances and other payments. I'm on the old contract and not really representing the majority as they are the ones recruited in 1997 and later. They probably earn £10.000 less.

[7Heroes]

Virtually no news coverage of the strike so far today.People losing interest and bigger stories.
Unite losing the `oxygen of publicity` and strikers getting wet.Paychecks starting to arrive and the enormity of it all starting to sink in.
BA continue to run an operation at 70% and more crew than required still reporting.

Bassa/Unite desperate for talks and any offer to be put to them but it ain`t gonna happen.You had your chance.The end game will be dictated by WW and I`m sure it will be on his terms

I know who my money is on.

[dontdoit]

I can confirm that HiFlyer14's assertions are correct. The aircraft (plural) I were on at the weekend had happy, full teams of real Cabin Crew. BASSA are feeding you a load of ****.

[cheeky chappy]

In contrast, in a normal working day a BA cabin crew member with five year's experience would earn only £15,000
So cabin crew earn £15000 a day!
I'm sure BASSA don't want that together out...

[DeepBreath]

Crew reported by 0820 local, across IFCE.............

79%

[sparkoflife]

I'm a CC volunteer, and having stood by for several days (speaks volumes in itself) I finally had the opportunity to operate into Europe yesterday.

What a wonderful experience! CRC was standing room only. I met a fantastic welcoming and supportive crew who were deeply appreciative of my efforts. Both sectors were full, and we worked hard, smiled a lot, and all our pax were happy.

Of course, I have no prior benchmark for comparison, but if all crews acted like mine yesterday, I suspect this would be a very different airline. I hope to be able to help again as soon as possible.

[Wirbelsturm]

Irrespective of the 'amount' the cost to the company of NOT flying anything during Unites spat would be catastrophic both in monetary terms, publicity terms and customer forward booking terms.

The company MUST be seen to be doing something to counter the irresponsible actions of a few self serving head office Unite leaders.

Get over it.

[cheeky chappy]

Oh, and not a single broken Crew Rest Area door lock reported in the CDL.
Ah.. That's another nice little earner I believe. Care to remind us how much it is per crew member on a trip? ;)

[Dr Stoke]

£166 per hour is NOT true.

I get £2.66 per hour away from base.

£9 per hour when aircraft doors are closed.

That makes £11.66 not £166.

A BASSA typo or god forbid perhaps a BASSA lie.

[M2dude]

Ah.. That's another nice little earner I believe. Care to remind us how much it is per crew member on a trip? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Can't remember the exact amount, but I know it costs the airline over £2K per trip, for a 744. Same for 'too cold'.

[fruitbat]

Here are some FACTS, these are just a few of the BA 747 flights that left LHR yesterday. They were all FULLY crewed with 'normal' cc and had an average load factor of over 90%.

LAX- BA 283 and BA269
SFO- BA 285
HKG- BA 25
NRT- BA 5
SIN- BA 11
BKK- BA 9
JNB- BA 55
CPT- BA 59
GRU- BA 247

This is just a small sample, there are many more. Stop believing the BASSA lies, and look at the facts.

IF YOU ARE ON STRIKE YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY!

[nurjio]

..not to mention the gloriously lucrative JFK'ers.

Since this is about BA v BASSA, the non-backers have hardly brought about paralysis on the scale of their rhetoric. What is emerging is a mechanism, orchestrated by BASSA, thank you very much, whereby the militant malignancy has had the opportunity to avoid having to work. This has thrown the shackles off the beast and allowed a re-newed spirit of 'can-do' to pervade the operation - so beautifully described by HighFlyer14.

Non-BA Backers, stay away, or come and join the work-force, ST permitting.

nurj

PS, The March payslips are begining to reveal more of BASSA's ineptitude. Oh, and Len McCluskey's, Derek Simpson's, Tony Woodley's, Brian Boyd's payslips will show no deductions for 'withdrawal of labour'.

Madness, utter madness.

[fruitbat]

There is no info I can check on crew levels but many went full and hence had enough 'normal' crew to run the flight. Certainly at least two of them went with the usual 14 cc, as mates were the flightcrew!

As so many crew are turning up, BA are increasing the number of longhaul trips once again.

[nurjio]

On the contrary Miamimike. There is no sweet smell. the 'beleivers' have been effectively 'lined up and shot at' by a group of leaders with greed and self-service on the agenda. Fortunately, those lined up, will be missed by the incoming fire as, IMHO, BA will not sack them. Their collective fate's depends on when they choose to return to the fold (as they are in the minority) and with what attitude.

Madness, utter madness.


nurj

[Max Tow]

Len's not doing well on his scary credibility rating. First of all he and his mates said that any idea that BA could maintain a flying programme during the strike would be "a fiction" & "a fantasy". Red rags and bulls come to mind. Then, as the fantasy planes kept casting their ghostly shadows over Bedfont, he tried the unsafe scare to de-rail BA's continued ops, but the CAA were still happy to approve; then he tried the foreign union scare to disrupt the U.S. aircraft handling, but the foreign unions were still happy to handle; then he tried the brand trashing scare to discourage the customers from coming, but the customers were still happy to board; now he's trying the economics scare to spook the shareholders -but surprise,surprise, the BA share price just keeps going up and up.

[Pornpants1]

Well I was in CRC both Saturday and Sunday. BAs figures on reflection look to be correct. (I know some might say "I would say that") I can only speak with authority on the WW side of things but the worst turn out yesterday was 4 on a stateside that had been canceled anyway, these 4 were quickly re deployed to other flights. I don't have the figures to hand but very few "volunteers" were used Saturday or Sunday on WW. I also had a very illuminating conversation with BF on Sunday, the first time I had meet him.

BASSA/UNITE seem to be stooping to some depths to get people out on strike, the TV cameras in CRC lie was just one example. The other is the amount of money volunteers are getting paid.

The truth be told I don't know where this will end. UNITE/BASSA can't win a strike when 50% of people are turning up for work, neither can BA win a strike with that amount.

In BAs favour the company was not making any money before the strike, the routes which they have kept flying especially long haul are those that generate the profits, so I'm sure they can hold out for some time in the hope that people drift back to work, or until the strike mandate runs out.

[fruitbat]

Crew are coming to work in increasing numbers. How depressing for the dwindling strikers at BFC to open their reduced March pay slips as the BA5 Narita service thunders overhead with a full crew earning several hundred pounds each for a 4 day trip.....

[miamimike]

SPARK of LIFEs,wonderful experience!!,can almost hear the Julie Andrews soundtrack!."Volunteers",such as yourself,however well intended ,Nigels doing ice & lemon etc have sown the seeds to many years of unrest.

[Hotel Mode]

have sown the seeds to many years of unrest.

Nothing to do with the ill-informed and ill led going on a pointless strike then?

I suspect many may find themselves "managed" out of BA in the post strike environment. The crew's who've been flying have shown how good BA is without the bedfont brigade.

[Rover90]

Just a little curious that there is talk of reduced pay in the March pay advice as reported on the other forum.

Allowances and variables are credited one month in arrears, ie variable pay and allowances for March 2010 flying will appear in the April 2010 pay advice.

The deduction for strike days will surely appear in the April 2010 pay advice as the first action was on the 20th March and we are not even at the end of March yet, the XXX days are obviously shown on the electronic roster in real time.

[fruitbat]

Basic pay has been deducted for the strike dates in the March payslip.

[Eddy]

How depressing for the dwindling strikers at BFC to open their reduced March pay slips I think it's entirely inappropriate that the money has been taken from these pay slips when the money being paid is paid a month in arreers. They're effectively taking money that has been worked for.

[fruitbat]

Only allowances are paid a month in arrears.

[Timothy Claypole]

SPARK of LIFEs,wonderful experience!!,can almost hear the Julie Andrews soundtrack!."Volunteers",such as yourself,however well intended ,Nigels doing ice & lemon etc have sown the seeds to many years of unrest.

Just back from a trip. Miserable, sour-faced steward wearing his BASSA lanyard refusing to make eye contact and just about managing to be civil. A consequence of the unrest perhaps? Well actually no. Said steward was noteworthy because I'd flown with him before and he was just as miserable and sour faced before this whole affair began. Moral of the story? This strike will make not a jot of difference to our working lives as the miserable, grumpy, chip-on-shoulder types were there beforehand and will be there afterwards (barring the ones who can no longer afford to commute or have been dismissed). The rest of us will get on with enjoying ourselves and leave them to sulk in their rooms.

[Right Engine]

"I hate all pilots because some of them volunteered to break my strike"

"I hate all ________because some of them ____________________"

Air your prejudices on PPrune! Fill in the ______'s and post!

Welsh/won the grand slam more recently than us.
Liverpudlians/are seen to be leading BASSA over a cliff.

[subject to load]

HiFlyer14 : thanks for summarising so beautifully (post 897) what so many others feel, and for painting such a clear picture of what's actually happening out there in the real world ; in contrast to life in the fictional country otherwise known as Bassaland (not yet on the network AFAIK ;))

I'm beginning to think that the dwindling minority of CC who remain in favour of strike action don't - in their heart of hearts - actually believe the Bassa spin themselves any more. After the laughable "20 747's parked up at CWL", "only 26 CC turned up for duty" and countless other gems, even they will have seen that the the propaganda rarely if ever bears any relation to the truth. But, their dilemma is, it's all they have to cling to

and so striking CC continue to worry their heads about things over which they have no control, and that won't in any way help their own cause in reaching whatever settlement they imagine they deserve. Hence their paranoia and obsession with whatever unsubstantiated missives the Union dreams up, whether it's how much vol FD crews get for acting as CC, the precise number of cancellations, aircraft alleged to be flying empty, that WW is evil personified and not fit to run the airline (despite the share price saying the opposite....) etc etc etc . It goes on and on .....

meanwhile BA mgt simply get on with running the operation as best they can and doing everything possible to make life acceptable both for pax and for those staff more interested in working than waving banners at Bedfont 'fun days'

and the real sadness I think many of us are now feeling for the Bassa diehards is that in the time it will take for them to come to their senses they will have lost so much, yet with no prospect of anything to show for their action..... .

[Wirbelsturm]

Confused by BA's claim as to how much impact cabin crew's industrial action is having?
Then watch this clip from Sky news yesterday (Sunday) evening and allow them to explain exactly how the numbers are being inflated by the use of code share and "wet leased" services.
Remember this also does not identify the empty aircraft flights known as "freighters" which are believed to be a further third or more of departing flights.

More wondereful spin from Unite.

Don't they realise that BA has a contract with its customers to get them to their destination by any means possible.

The fact that the company uses diverse methods and ensures that aircraft positioning out to be in place at the end of the Unite spat have revenue generating cargo onboard shows initiative not desperation.

By embarking upon this contingency plan BA are at least ensuring that passengers remain mildly confident about booking with BA in the future. Something that is obviously at odds with Unites view that the strike would cripple the carrier. Sorry Len, but we are not back in your beloved militant 70's yet. Now where is your mate Derek Hatton?

[TightSlot]

A majority of the most problematic posts being made on this thread come from those that are not actually employed by BA. At present, the thread is open to all those actively employed by airlines: If this situation continues, we may further restrict posting rights to BA staff only. Suggest that those of you not actually employed by BA think more carefully before posting.

A number of recent deletions have involved users from outside the industry, or who have retired from it: These users have been thread-banned.

[rzw30]

Well there are none in this. (Forgetting those in the union who may have political agendas.)

WW will not back down IMO.

Neither will Unite.

It's up to the CC who are not disposed to strike to

either try to persuade the less militant union reps to persuade the unite leaders to get the best deal possible (it won't be as good as previous offers)

or

sit it out hoping that more CC cave in.

Either way, it's going to be a pretty uncomfortable time after the end of IA when ex striking CC have to work with those who did not strike.

The strikers might be seen as second class citizens because they dont have ST.

Is it really possible for the 2 groups to mix?

Seems to me that the ex strikers either need the same Ts and Cs, or they can't work in the same airline (notwithstanding the New Fleet which you might consider as a similar situation, but is not because the new CC signed up to different Ts and Cs)

However you look at it, the strikers are very poorly placed.

The only moral of this is that and CC who have not shown their hand yet by not turning up for work whould think long and hard before they join the strike.

If WW could find it in his being to negotiate a deal which gave back the ST to strikers, that would clearly be the best outcome for the airline unless he is hell bent on getting rid of the strikers

[sparkoflife]

miamimike - seems you think I'm flight crew. Wrong. I'm a ground staff volunteer. As for unrest, let's meet again in 12 months and discuss how things are going. I anticipate I'll still have a job, a decent salary, and staff travel. I also think CC will be a much nicer place to work.

For info, my directorate agreed to the company's considerable savings plan. It hurt financially and I now have to work a little harder, but I'm still paid well, in my opinion, for what I do.

[fruitbat]

Simple

All strikers are given a 'New Fleet' contract to sign, with Staff Travel with a date of joining as the day the contract is signed.

New Fleet will fly different routes and the two sets of crew will never have to work together.

Those crew who backed BA will continue to enjoy their previous T's and C's and have jumped up the Staff Travel pecking order.

[Pornpants1]

As an aside, have any Cabin Crew/UNITE/BASSA stopped to think out of the box and wondered if it might actually be cheaper to fly short haul routes using wet lease aircraft:ok:

[rzw30]

Fruitbat, I understand your plan, it sounds like an administrative nightmare though

[midman]

ILS27L,
just for clarity, I'm a pilot volunteer cabin crew. I was meant to go to Boston yesterday but enough 'normal' cabin crew turned up so I was sent home. If I had gone I would have earnt £195 after tax for the there and back. it's the same for captains or first officers. Divide that by flying hours, time downroute, or whichever way you like, but it's not £166/hr.

I'm not sure why you wonder why any pilot wouldn't volunteer, because of 'retaliation'. What do you mean by that?

As for secret supporters of the strike amongst pilots, there's no reason why any pilot wouldn't voice their opinion on the Flt deck, no-ones going to scratch their car or even get in a huff over it! They would say what they think. As it is, many pilots are married to cabin crew but in the last 18 months of this issue, I haven't heard one mention support for the Bassa position. (and the same goes for engineers, trms etc)

[miamimike]

rzw30,thanks for the reality check.Obviously everyone has their own take/agenda on the present situation.You have highlighted what I believe is a huge problem once all parties are back working together.
So little thought has been given to what will be the aftermath.This has the potential for years of damage to the company.Even with my experience (30 years) I cannot believe the stupidity of the flight crew in their short sightedness.

[Pornpants1]

Miamimike

I cannot believe the stupidity of the flight crew in their short sightedness.

What do you mean by this? Care to expand?

[Rover90]

The UNITE sound bites that are trotted out from Bedfont:

Over 90% of Cabin Crew voted on strike action.....Which is designed to convey that 90% of all Cabin Crew support strike action

As we know, just over 7100 crew out of the 12000+ work force voted for strike action which is about 60% in very round figures.

I feel as one of the 4900+ crew members who did NOT want to be led down this path of destruction, we are behaving very politely and responsibly, considering what the strike supporters are doing to the company in our name.

[miamimike]

Yes Spark of Life,did realise that you werent flight crew.I also understand your good intentions.I believe that life after resolution will be very very difficult given the need for nature of FC/CC workplace.

[Wirbelsturm]

Even with my experience (30 years) I cannot believe the stupidity of the flight crew in their short sightedness.

Is this the stupidity to realise the state of the current aviation environment and the state of the company? Or the stupidity to realise that the company cannot support contracts written in the 1980's when the cost of a return ticket to Manchester was in excess of £500 economy class? Or possibly the stupidity to realise that imposition would follow if your Union failed to negotiate by the appropriate deadline?

Can we also put to bed the spectre of 'CRM' please? I will expect/require all crew to operate to SOP whether or not they took part in the strike or took part in the contingency plan. Whilst they are on my aeroplane, on company time, operating as part of my crew they will conduct themselves in an appropriate manner. Any inappropriate behaviour, be it in either direction, will result in the perpertrator being off loaded. CRM will not be affected by this strike on my aeroplane. Simples. :ok:

[pencisely]

Fruitbat

BA 285 left with 12 CC of which 2 were volunteers. Service was great as was the atmosphere. Also a huge amount of support from the pax for the onboard crew.

[jetset lady]

Either way, it's going to be a pretty uncomfortable time after the end of IA when ex striking CC have to work with those who did not strike.

The strikers might be seen as second class citizens because they dont have ST.

Is it really possible for the 2 groups to mix?

Seems to me that the ex strikers either need the same Ts and Cs, or they can't work in the same airline (notwithstanding the New Fleet which you might consider as a similar situation, but is not because the new CC signed up to different Ts and Cs)




Is it going to be easy? No, probably not. Is it possible? Yes.

I operated a 2 day 6 in between the last strike and this one. As expected, during the briefing the subject of the strike came up. I told the crew that as far I was concerned, everyone had a choice and should be respected for the decision they made, regardless of what side of the fence they were on. The crew agreed and we went on to have a really nice trip, complete with the usual hugs and kisses at the end. Three of us were not striking, one was. We didn't ignore what was happening but there was certainly no animosity from either side.

I'll admit, it's probably easier for us at LGW. It is a smaller base and we pretty much know each other. But I'm also sure there will probably be some conflict somewhere along the line. I'm not totally living in cloud cuckoo land. Yes, LGW is a good base to work at but we aren't perfect, despite the rosy picture that some crew insist on painting. We have problems and personality clashes, just like at LHR and just like every other airline in the world. But I really hope we can sort it out amongst ourselves without haven't to resort to involving management.

Jsl

P.S. Sorry, this is completely off thread but I keep wondering about the easyJet ad that regularly appears on this thread. The one that says..."No strikes at easyJet!" Erm...I may be wrong but I thought their pilots in Germany recently went on strike? Or did it not happen in the end? I did have a look in R&N but couldn't find a conclusive answer. Sorry. Just curious...
:confused:

[miamimike]

Yes Pornpants.I re-call in late 05 yourselves were rather concerned that WW had you in his sights.Fortunately your concerns were shortlived.My recollection at the time was that the CC community was sympathetic to your cause.Clearly the exact opposite is the case now that the CC have become WWs much anticipated target.
I digress,but to answer your question...Given the unique relationship that exists between us on board,providing safety,security,good communication etc,did you not for one moment consider the potential for damage to that vital partnership/relationship that your divisive actions would create.

[Rover90]

...so perhaps less about the FC/CC CRM issues and more about the striker/non-striker issues.

...it is the pro-strike brigade who are just over 60% of the Cabin Crew workforce (ie voted Yes to strike) that are currently wrecking the train set and we will ALL have to live with the fallout of their actions.

Guess that is democracy!

[Wirbelsturm]

Miamimike,

There should be no damage. Whilst onboard we are all required to act professionally. Irrespective of our personal views or our actions during the current IA we are required to act together with the express aim of delivering our customers and passengers safely and expediciously to their destination.

If you feel that the actions of others might impact your ability, after 30 years, to do that then I might suggest that a change of job and scene is required. As I have posted above I will brook no arguments or harrassment in either direction against those who took IA or those who didn't.

We are all professional people who should have the ability to differentiate our personal views from our professional role.

:)

If you wish to kick off in the pub downroute then at least we all have the option to ignore you. :}

[fruitbat]

Miamimike

If you can't continue to work with people who's views differ from yours, and you threaten to 'disrupt' the vital chains of communication that provide the safety and security on a flight, I suggest you could find yourself in very hot water....

You are paid to do your job, whether you come out for a beer the other end, is really none of my business and frankly the atmosphere would be better if you didn't.

[jetset lady]

miamimike,

Any crew member from either end that lets personal feelings get in the way of safety and security shouldn't be on ANY aircraft in the first place. I'd seriously have to question their intelligence considering it's their hide up there too!

[subject to load]

with further contingency training courses for vols (CAA-approved of course) apparently scheduled for April/May ..... how long before a full normal schedule can be run from all bases, whatever the ongoing level of IA :confused:

[Timothy Claypole]

I can probably answer that for pornpants. During the OpenSkies dispute the support of cabin crew was never officially sought or even requested by BALPA. During the present dispute not only has BASSA attacked pilots in the most libellous way since the very outset (sweetheart deals, in managements pockets, only interested in their own pensions, should all Foxtrot Oscar) they then have the audacity to complain when the pilots don't support them. As I believe I mentioned in my previous posts, the flights with the non-striking crew are going well, and indeed are more enjoyable and show more effective teamwork than pre-strike flights had shown for quite some time. What you must realise mike is that the strikers are the minority, and come the time they go back to work they will be clearly identifiable as harbouring bad feelings and a negative attitude. There has been paradigm shift in the way BA is being run and their petulant behaviour will no longer be tolerated, not by their majority non-striking colleagues but by their management too. If you won't work with the team, as part of the team, you really can expect to be performance managed out of the business.

[License to Fly]

If anyone wants to find out more about Unite, google them - just make sure you click on the sponsored link at the top of the screen (but bear in mind that Unite have to pay google everytime someone clicks on that sponsored link)

[Juan Odeboyse]

Just back from picket line duty at LGW...have I missed much on here?

[miamimike]

Sorry you couldnt take it on the chin.Yes of course there will be those who put professionalism first.Given the diversity of the CC community its a bit naive to think its going to be plain sailing.
I will,probably,still march the left-over F/C sticky toffee pud up into the flight deck.....but there are some that wont!.

[Fargoo]

For any Flight crew volunteering, do the flying hours you accrue as a CC member count towards your yearly maximum hours?

In other words, is it more beneficial to use ground staff as flying volunteers as to protect those hours?

Also, as mentioned earlier a trip would earn £195 after tax there and back, what is this payment for if the trip is voluntary to help out the company?

[Pornpants1]

Miamimike, there will be no problems post reconciliation. Wirbelsturm has summed it up very well as has Jetsetlady:ok:

It suits UNITE/BASSA to bang on about CRM issues to try and poison any real debate, about the real issues, don't fall for it, especially after 30 years:ok:

[miamimike]

OK Pornpants,thanks.

[subject to load]

Juan

Just back from picket line duty at LGW...have I missed much on here?well have a read through recent posts, and then you could perhaps help out many of us here with something we've been missing .....

specifically : what precisely are your demands for ending IA ?

We genuinely are mystified, and despite many previous requests to others there have been no coherent answers, least of all from BASSA supporters involved in picket duty such as your goodself

when responding please don't quote previous comment / statements from either BASSA or indeed BA mgt, and try to avoid waffly descriptions such as a 'properly negotiated settlement by sitting round the table' or 'no more imposition' or 'protecting my T&C's' or 'more respect from WW' etc etc.......

please spell out in your own words, from the heart, what exactly you're looking for

that way we can respect your views by at least understanding why you're on strike, it will clear a lot of confusion and who knows ...... you might even get some new converts to your cause....

Juan, please take up this invitation.....

[Mabbs9]

BBC say Unite about to raise £700000 from members to support strikers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8593516.stm). We need a lot more people to go on strike or New Fleet won't be very big.

PS, just landed on a jumbo with a full crew, nearly full pax load and several of the team admitted to a yes vote but now dont trust the union so are working. Anecdotal I know but significant none the less.

[Juan Odeboyse]

I would but I do not belong to Bassa so cannot help you there.

[GS-Alpha]

A pro-BASSA member suggested earlier (or I read something from UNITE), that the volunteers were simply prolonging the dispute. For once, I actually agree with this point.

However this is a good thing for the company and a bad thing for the strikers. BA will have a cost at which the dispute is then no longer worthwhile. They reach this cost in a short time making a large daily loss, or they can last for a long time making a relatively small daily loss. The striking crew lose the same amount of money every day, so a prolonged strike is financially more painful for the strikers and it also serves to wear them down too.

You can bet that BAs daily losses during this strike period have been less than during last weekend.

UNITE are losing this battle but that was always inevitable anyway.

[subject to load]

oh dear Juan ....I did suggest that in the interests of clarity you should not refer to BASSA in your answer, and just to give a reasoned explanation in your own words

let me try again (for the sake of all of us who are desperate to understand what your aims are) .... ...
What precisely would encourage you to end picket line duty and return to work??

[fruitbat]

Latest turnout of crew working today:

68% LHR

98% LGW

[earleyboy]

Fruitbat, don't forget the 90% that turned up for SEP training today :ok:

[miamimike]

Yep,soon be business as usual.Next problem is what to do with the 19,867 cabin crew.(Calculation based on % of those turning up for work).

[swalesboy]

Well the £700000 war chest has tipped me over the edge. Cancelled my Unite membership today. ALAE here I come.

[Hotel Mode]

.(Calculation based on % of those turning up for work).

Would that calculation be based on Unites idea that 2100 crew report each day by any chance?

Its more like 1200 per day.

[coffeewhiteone]

Of those 1200 cabin crew reporting each day, Bedfont FC must be packed to capacity. :confused:

[miamimike]

Mind you,if all the facts & figures published on here are correct its only the BASSA reps and a few odds & sods on strike-700,000 divided by 23=,mmm difficult one that.

[Re-Heat]

Unite said many pilots earned £166 an hour - or £120,000 a year - compared with crew who are paid £16 an hour - or £15,000 annually - after five years' experience. Unite says its cabin crew figure is based on legally-agreed contracts to fly 900 hours a year, plus benefits and allowances.
Plus, Len says, note it is not including

I have to just sigh at the linked BBC article. Really pathetic rhetoric-filled hate coming from Unite.

Honestly, I would not be surprised to see even reps resign.

[64K]

New BA statement:


PROFIT OUTLOOK REMAINS UNCHANG ED

Contingency plans for the second period of industrial action. have again been very successful.

Over the first two days (March 27 and 28) the airline operated 308 or 83 per cent of its longhaul programme (273 or 78 per cent last weekend) and 623 or 67 per cent of its shorthaul programme (442 or 50 per cent last weekend). Total number of passenger flights increased 30 per cent from 715 to 931. Seat factors continued to be strong at 75 per cent in longhaul and 64 per cent in shorthaul. In addition the airline operated 61 positioning flights to carry cargo and return passengers home with minimum disruption, nine less than last weekend. Wet lease aircraft decreased from 22 to 11 (costing approximately £495,000 for the last two days) as we operated a larger number of our own aircraft. We operated 100 per cent of our normal schedule at Gatwick.

Over this busy Easter holiday air travel weekend, we flew 118,575 passengers, an increase of 37 per cent over the 86,262 carried last weekend.

This strong and improved operational performance made possible by dedicated BA colleagues has further reduced the impact of the disruption. The estimate is a daily impact of £5.5 million for each day this weekend. Any change to the cost impact for the remaining two days of industrial action will be announced later in the week if required.

Earnings expectations for the year ended March 31, 2010 continue broadly unchanged.

(Any opinions expressed above are personal and not those of my employer)

[cheeky chappy]

Oh dear it seems that Unite have done some calculations and realised how much this fiasco is gonna cost them and are gonna try and squeeze more subs from the rest of us to support the strikers, well... "NO WAY JOSE!"
My resignation from UNTIE will be going in tomorrow as I refuse to pay anything to support a group of people intent on wrecking my livelyhood.

[GS-Alpha]

£5.5m per day, down from £7m. The next time around we will be somewhere near post 9/11 cash burn. The difference this time is that we have way more cash and less debt. When are the strikers going to realise that they have a cat's chance in hell of winning this dispute? I am not even entirely sure what it is they are trying to win!

[ShandyBoy]

I think the union and some of the striking crew are fooling themselves if they think BA won't continue with or without them, and whilst there is an element of short term pain for the airline, this will soon pass and we can all move on for a better future (the city certainly thinks so as well).

From posts on this forum and what I've witnessed on the ground and in the air, it is clear that this whole sorry affair has galvanised the troops and put the 'team' back into teamwork.
Almost without exception every department has upped their game, rolled up their sleeves and got on with it, many working long hours for little or no reward, and all in the name of being determined to see this through.

How the union thinks the non attendance of two or three thousand cabin crew can defeat a united work force of 35,000+ is beyond me.

I am in no way demeaning BA cabin crew cos the vast majority are very nice, hard working, skilled people ........... however, it has been shown over the past few months that a 'replacement' work force can be mobilised in a relatively short space of time and whilst they don't have the experience, they soon will have. Add to that the long line of people who would give their right arm to fly as BA cabin crew from other UK airlines and I think the 'head in the sand' brigade will soon realise that life will go on with or without them.

So let's set the scene, those that want to be part of a successful BA moving forward come and join us and see what a lovely place to work it has recently become. As for those that want to continue to cause trouble and spread their poison and propoganda, go find yourself a bouncy castle :ok:

[pete50500]

I have likewise cancelled my subscription to unite, as probably have many other BA Engineers I :ok:can only hope in the HUNDREDS.:D:D

[Eddy]

The number of people reporting for work may not be as BA suggests.

The number of people reporting at Bedfont may not be as Bassa suggests.

But two things are certain :

1) CRC is in a state of relative normality

2) Bedfont is mobbed

[Caribbean Boy]

It seems as if Unite will collect about £230 from each of its 3,000 branches.

Can someone enlighten me on something: does this mean that each branch has its own funds, or will members have to pay extra next quarter?

[64K]

The number of people reporting for work may not be as BA suggests.

The number of people reporting at Bedfont may not be as Bassa suggests.

But two things are certain :

1) CRC is in a state of relative normality

2) Bedfont is mobbed I guess the difference is those at Bedfont will not all actually be striking, i.e. people on MBTs, annual leave, part time weeks, etc. Those who report at CRC/CBK are all there for their rostered duties.

(Any opinions expressed above are personal and not those of my employer)

[Timothy Claypole]

But why would CRC be in anything other than a state of normality? People are reporting and flights are departing. You'd hardly expect it to be mobbed, would you?

Meanwhile Bedfont has plenty of friends, family and off duty non-striking crew members, which is a far higher pool to choose from, but I'd still bet they haven't got as many as have reported for work today.

[ranger07]

Okay, so Unite are in this for the 'Longhaul' (pun intended)
During the elongated period of IA, CC recruitment surely will continue (new fleet), and, as time goes by, the 'strikers' become, er, 'less relevant'.:confused:

[Hotel Mode]

If Bedfont is so mobbed why did only 40 people turn out for the march down the Bath Road? Those are Met Police figures before anyone questions them.

[Bluejay]

Caribbean Boy £700,000 levy

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It seems as if Unite will collect about £230 from each of its 3,000 branches.

Can someone enlighten me on something: does this mean that each branch has its own funds, or will members have to pay extra next quarter?

I would suggest that the members will end up paying for it!!!!

I for one won't as I cancelled my membership when this debacle kicked off (it's very easy just contact Pay Services!!)

Together we stand UNITE we fall

[Eddy]

What is the protocol for non union members? Are they allowed to strike or are they on shaky ground by doing so?
You're not meant to strike and officially you're not legally allowed to, but you can bet that any union being supported by non members during IA would offer support in return for the employee if challenged by the company.

[bacabincrew]

You're not meant to strike and officially you're not legally allowed to, but you can bet that any union being supported by non members during IA would offer support in return for the employee if challenged by the company.

Hi Eddy - You are correct if you are not in a Union you do not strike and if you do want to support any IA then the Union would not advocate that unless you are a member as this may be construed as a 'secondary' type action.

[jetset lady]

anotherthing,

As Eddy and bacabincrew have said, you are definitely not allowed to strike if you are not a member of the union. I would guess juan odesboyse is probably a member of Amicus, as are most union members at LGW.


I hope no one minds me putting this on here but a poster over on the SLF BA thread has made a good point regarding Unites plans to raise the £700,000.



.....Unite leaders scream at Walsh for "Imposing changes without consultation". Can we therefore take it that the 2% will not be imposed and that the workers will have to opt in rather than opt out.

...or is it different for the Union when they work out that their credibility is now dropping to zero?

So does anyone know? Will this be something you can opt out of as from what I've seen, it will be compulsory for all Unite members?

[Juan Tugoh]

It may be that JO may be a CC89 member - are they on strike as well as BASSA. They all come under the UNITE umbrella now.

If one was not a member of a union and under took strike action, it would be illegal - a straight breach of contract and as such could lead to dismissal. A union could support as much as it liked but it would not do anything to alter the dismissal.

[jetset lady]

anotherthing,

It was a joint ballot in this instance. I have to be honest, I'm not entirely sure if the fact that Amicus and BASSA are now merged under the Unite umbrella means that any strike becomes a "Unite" strike now. I'm sure someone with better knowledge than me will be able to answer that.

Historically, BASSA have always been the most fiery and the most vocal. They also have a very passionate and loyal following which is probably why you hear their name more often. But I can assure you, both branches are definitely involved in this one.

[Caribbean Boy]

This is my understanding for strikers.

If you are a non-union member you are covered by the same legal protection as those who are taking part in protected industrial action.

If you are a member of a union that is not taking official strike action but join the strike, you will have no legal protection.

[Fargoo]

I hope no one minds me putting this on here but a poster over on the SLF BA thread has made a good point regarding Unites plans to raise the £700,000.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou Scannon

.....Unite leaders scream at Walsh for "Imposing changes without consultation". Can we therefore take it that the 2% will not be imposed and that the workers will have to opt in rather than opt out.

...or is it different for the Union when they work out that their credibility is now dropping to zero?
So does anyone know? Will this be something you can opt out of as from what I've seen, it will be compulsory for all Unite members?

Unite will raise the money from its branches not individual members. Although I guess indirectly those not involved are paying the money to begin with.

[bacabincrew]

Not a lot of people are aware of this but for clarification purposes.

British Airways are actually in dispute with Unite - not BASSA nor CC89 as they are both just 'Branches' of Unite.

Both BASSA and CC89 are branches of the Unite Union - BA recognise both as legal branches, however that's why the likes of Steve Turner and Brian Boyd are involved as they represent the aviation sector within Unite - they then report into the likes of Simpson, Mcluskey and ultimately Woodley

[jetset lady]

Thanks bacabincrew. That's what I thought but I wasn't entirely sure.

Sorry to be a pain and apologies for if I'm being dense, but just so I understand fully, if in the future there was another dispute, would either one of the branches be able to call for IA independently or will it always automatically be under the Unite name and therefore involve both sections?

Jsl

[Litebulbs]

I imagine whatever the result of this dispute, there are going to be some major changes in how Unite and BA do business.

[bacabincrew]

Sorry to be a pain and apologies for if I'm being dense, but just so I understand fully, if in the future there was another dispute, would either one of the branches be able to call for IA independently or will it always automatically be under the Unite name and therefore involve both sections?

No problems at all - either branch can take independent action dependent upon the will or motivation of their memberships - so if CC89 voted for strike action at some time in the future and BASSA voted against - CC89 could still take that action (following all procedures etc)

[midman]

For any Flight crew volunteering, do the flying hours you accrue as a CC member count towards your yearly maximum hours?

In other words, is it more beneficial to use ground staff as flying volunteers as to protect those hours?

Also, as mentioned earlier a trip would earn £195 after tax there and back, what is this payment for if the trip is voluntary to help out the company?

Fargoo, the cabin crew hours don't count towards the scheme 900 hour FTL.

It's only more beneficial to use ground staff if using the pilot would cause a further pilot to be used on overtime, in which case the cabin crew pilot would be expensive for the company.
That payment for me, as a pilot, working in my own time, not rostered to come to work, is £195 after tax, on the Boston flight.

In addition, I and my pilot colleagues weren't used today (I believe not one used today or yesterday?) because plenty of cabin crew turning up.

It was like a normal day at the CRC, just more support staff than you'd normally have. 68% of rostered cabin crew turned up today to work, according to Flt Ops managers.

Again, the involvement of pilots in the briefing made for a great atmosphere, with a real sense of teamwork.

A part of me really hopes the malignant Bassa militants never return, as they have such a corrosive effect on the workplace.

(PS Good to hear Bill Francis getting a round of applause from LGW cabin crew today - won't be long before it happens at LHR?)

[bacabincrew]

A part of me really hopes the malignant Bassa militants never return, as they have such a corrosive effect on the workplace.

Now, now - don't get personal you know the forum rules

In fact that post is quite disgusting and intimidatory

[midman]

I imagine whatever the result of this dispute, there are going to be some major changes in how Unite and BA do business.

I certainly hope so and I think has been the intention ever since Bassa refused to approve to the Disruption agreement last year.

[Pornpants1]

bacabincrew In fact that post is quite disgusting and intimidatory

Gosh, I really hope you don't read the BASSA or Crewforum, most informed comment on those sites leave Midmans posting smelling of roses!:ooh:;)

[bacabincrew]

I tend not to trust Crewforum as it's about as one-sided as this forum.

The BASSA forum is a little more tempered - I have seen far worse comments about Cabin Crew on here which the mods remove pretty quickly

[coffeewhiteone]

A part of me really hopes the malignant Bassa militants never return, as they have such a corrosive effect on the workplace.


Here here. The workplace has been the happiest for years as the majority of crew that have turned up have had a 'can do' attitude.

The mood in the CRC has been great in my last couple of visits. Both times I've been sent home as none of the VCC have been required due to a surplus of CC turning up.

[Viewfrom5Bells]

Handing out all the booze on a flight back from India. My mate commented that it was the best flight he'd ever been on with a great crew who looked like they actually were enjoying their job.

[HOVIS]

Just one quick note about BA Engineers. The majority are the best paid in the UK. That was a deal sorted out by Unite(amicus/aeeu/aeu/eetpu).

Not strictly accurate, litebulbs.

The majority of engineering staff are technicians, referred to as mechanics outside of BA.
Yes they are the best paid (in the world I would say) considering the qualifications and responsibilities they have.

On the other hand the licensed engineer's pay is well below the industry norm.

Otherwise, spot on. :ok:

Is there a parallel with the current CC dispute there?

No idea, but what is certain is that a cc member on £29000 (plus expenses) is taking home a hell of a lot more money than a BA technician and by all accounts a BA LAE can only dream of the kind of wage a senior CSD or purser takes home.

[OverFlare]

Quote:
A part of me really hopes the malignant Bassa militants never return, as they have such a corrosive effect on the workplace.
Now, now - don't get personal you know the forum rules

In fact that post is quite disgusting and intimidatory

One of the daftest things I've read for a while - and, let's face it, there's an awful lot of competition out there. Personal would be naming names which I believe is more BASSA's style.

I have just operated back from a secret destination as VCC. We were eight cabin crew, all very on-side, four normal crew and four others - made up of a former temp, and ground staff and pilot volunteers. It was, to be honest, a great experience. Hard work but not excessively so. Passengers all very supportive of the reduced service (some even saying they preferred it to the normal service) and of BA's ability to keep the flight running. Excellent CSD (normal crew) and the one team concept really seemed to work.

The more I read on here and elsewhere the more I'm glad I volunteered and worked with the regular cabin crew I met on the flight. This airline is being held together by strike breaking crew and the volunteers and I'm proud to be part of that. I'd happily act as cabin crew for the rest of the summer if it helped out.

Strikers? Who cares about you anymore?

[CaptainH]

Hi
I do not work for BA and I'm not a Unite member but it does seem that many people on this forum are talking of quitting the union. It seems to me that this means that the militant few will have an even stronger hold over the union and will be able to prolong the dispute that is harming BA and all of your careers. Surely, if you're not happy with the direction the union is taking, you stand more chance of moderating future action by staying as members and making your voices heard.:ugh:

[Litebulbs]

I was completely true in what I said, but I was poking the LAE community when I said it. If I was an LAE at BA still, I would be pushing Mr Walsh for market rate +10%. All of us that left, might start looking back:ok:

[bacabincrew]

No idea, but what is certain is that a cc member on £29000 (plus expenses) is taking home a hell of a lot more money than a BA technician and by all accounts a BA LAE can only dream of the kind of wage a senior CSD or purser takes home.

And that is where you are incorrect my friend - the £29,900 is the average cost to the company not the basic wage - that includes 'expenses' as you say - in fact that includes everything!

[fruitbat]

And does that 29k figure include all those CC who are part time? If so a full time member earns much more.

[Tiramisu]

Posted by bacabincrew
Maybe they should all be kept on as Cabin Crew


What an excellent suggestion!
A friend of mine who has operated twice as VCC, is enjoying her stint as cabin crew. She loves it so much and may even be applying for the position if this dispute continues. Another friend who is a temp with previous experience as cc with other airlines is looking forward to applying for the position of Cabin Manager given the opportunity. Sadly the strikers are making a rod for their own own backs.

Incidentally, I was on an early standby today and along with several other CSDS, I wasn't required to operate. There were so many crew who had reported today, there wasn't room to sit down anywhere.
It appeared to me as if the entire Eurofleet crew community had reported for duty.

I'm BA cabin crew and the above are my personal opinions.

[giza]

I have watched and read with interest these posts, there is one recurring theme, that of crew complement imposition without agreement. (as a reason to strike).



As it has been legally accepted that crew complement in not contractual, then agreement is not needed, in fact no negotiation is needed, only consultation. The difference being that contractually changes need to be negotiated and agreed, non contractually changes need only consultation on how to implement the changes, taking into account the views of both sides.

As 9 months of consultation did not result in any joint consensus on how to implement, then BA, after a reasonably time, has the legal right to change any non contractual arrangement. Therefore the strike is unreasonable and will not change the outcome.

[Litebulbs]

What about LGW model and LHR wages for all(and an uplift for the £11000k post 97 juniors)?

[eyealess]

Oh litebulbs!.
How the worm has turned. I remember when you were a technician son. You were all about getting the A license recognition and payment. To be fare i think the average BA technician signs for a hell of alot more than those initial 20 items that you were privy too. Anyway why waste your time on this forum. There must be a hell of alot more interesting things at TC.:ok:

[midman]

Now, now - don't get personal you know the forum rules

In fact that post is quite disgusting and intimidatory
Actually, the words I used were words said to me by an upper deck purser last week, and the sentiment has been repeated a few times.

[Litebulbs]

Oh litebulbs!.
How the worm has turned. I remember when you were a technician son. You were all about getting the A license recognition and payment. To be fare i think the average BA technician signs for a hell of alot more than those initial 20 items that you were privy too. Anyway why waste your time on this forum. There must be a hell of alot more interesting things at TC.:ok:

I will take that as a complement, as some say the BA techs are the best paid in the world! (however, I was no where near top table in those negotiations, so it had c0ck all to do with me!)

[Fargoo]

Midman, thanks for the answer :ok:

[bacabincrew]

And does that 29k figure include all those CC who are part time? If so a full time member earns much more.

As I stated the figure quoted is the average cost to the company - all in - of a Cabin Crew member - some earn more, some earn less, some are full time, some are part-time - add it all up, divide it pro-rata and hey presto! £29,900

[fruitbat]

Exactly, so a full time CC members cost to the company is significantly more than 29k. Many cc are 50%, some even 33%.

I would estimate the average full time WW main crew's cost is somewhere about 40k.

[bacabincrew]

Exactly, so a full time CC members cost to the company is significantly more than 29k. Many cc are 50%, some even 33%.

I would estimate the average full time WW main crew's cost is somewhere about 40k.

Listen - these are the figures that BA bandy around from the CAA document - the same CAA document that gives a Pilots pay at £107,600 - so what are you saying - the Pilots cost more too? Because I would say that many Pilots are on far more than £107,000 - however IT IS THE AVERAGE.

It's the average cost - cant you see that - I thought you lot all had a good education.

And out of interest Fruitbat - what would your stance be on taking action against a management that where trying to make changes to your agreements? Would you advocate strike action? Oh tell you what dont bother answering me that as I have already seen your many posts advocating action along with stirring comments on the 12th February 2008 such as "It is a battle we MUST win and indeed we will."

My how times change eh? :ok:

[fruitbat]

I agree do what you feel is right. If you feel strongly enough then strike. However it would appear many of your colleagues don't share your views and hence you will find yourself in an ever increasing minority as this saga goes on.

[bacabincrew]

I agree too - this is a legal strike, you each have to do what you feel is right at the time - when you lot had a dispute, many Pilots would have gone on strike - what many of us Cabin Crew simply cannot comprehend is this - what is the difference?

You tried to stop something that you felt would undermine your role, career, pay, terms and conditions. We are doing the exactly the same yet being totally castigated for it - plus we see Pilots simply revelling in the fact that they are accelerating our demise.

Many Pilots and Volunteers joined 'Willie's Army' to help 'save the airline from going bust' - everyone can now see that there is no danger of that - they are instead working with BA to crush our representation, lower my terms and conditions and force me out of a job I have done competently for over 20 years.

For one employee to do that to another employee is simply unacceptable.

[fruitbat]

Yes but this strike is about imposition. New Fleet which could be a threat like Openskies, was given the go ahead in Unites last offer.

Its about fighting strongly for the most important issues/threats. This 'cause' isn't it, hence the lack of total support.

[bacabincrew]

It's a mess and it needs sorting - believe me - no crew member wants to be on strike but the crew simply cannot trust the Leadership Team - don't get me wrong I am not a 'militant' - I am a genuinely straight forward bloke who is very disappointed in how I and my fellow crew members have been portrayed and at this moment in time I have a grave sense of injustice toward BA, Mr Walsh, fellow employees and The Daily Mail!!!!!

[bacabincrew]

BA cabin crew are paid, on average, twice the benchmark/market rate wage.

Who are you benchmarking against?

Besides my comments where not aimed at a debate about Openskies - it was the fact that you threatened action and would have taken it against something you disagreed with

And irrespective - you still threatened IA - in fact you BigBrutha where very vehement - are you still the same now you are a rep? ;)

[bacabincrew]

Im not arsed about benchmarking against airlines such as Easyjet, Virgin, Thomson, Monarch - the fact that these other operators can pay peanuts is irrelevant. I have a contract and payscales - why should I be arsed what Easyjet, Virgin, Thomson, Monarch pay?

If you can find me an equivalent airline to benchmark against in the UK then the data becomes valid.

[earleyboy]

bacabincrew.
With due respect, you need to talk to the many staff in the many depts who have had change over the last year. MG's who's pension payments are now only 80% of the annual salary, no pay award or bonus for last year, no bonus and pay rise or bonus expected this year or next, (I think you were offered pay rises for the next 3 years). We were severly pissed off, no one went one strike.

The Level 4 community on the ramp who are now band three with major loss of income, were severly pissed off no one went one strike.

The ramp staff, GSS( all ) who have had there pay reduced and these staff on 1/2 of what you are earning, no one went on strike.

You have no supporters on the ramp ( well maybe a few ) or any other ground staff, since the offer cabin crew were offered has been seen on the "TINTERNET". The reduction in staffing levels in CC do not even compare what has happened in other areas.

Wake up and smell the coffee !! Most staffs' support is for the greater majority of CC who have come to work to keep this airline going. The likes of Tiramsu et al.

BASSA and UNITE will and are losing this battle and rightly so, someone else has posted on here , wrong time, wrong fight. Enjoy the dole queue when you are on it, it's not pleasent I've been there, it ain't pleasant as some will find.