British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only)

[ChicoG]

Re Duncan Holley's words:

For example - he said yesterday that 2000 BASSA members have left because of the recent strikes.

Only one person knows the exact figure and that is me. I checked this morning and since Jan 1, 568 members have stopped paying into the payroll, so Walsh is lying.

(a) He didn't seem to know the numbers before the first strike, which is why BA won the injunction.

(b) If people are simply cancelling the deduction from their payslips by contacting BA, then BASSA won't know until BA inform them.

So Holley is the one lying, isn't he?

[BentleyH]

Max Tow,

My understanding is that all flights for the next strike period were shown as operating until this morning, when the reduced schedule was announced.
It is therefore only now that passengers are being re-booked or offered refunds. If you look at the departures age on ba.com for 5th June for example, everything is currently shown as operating.
Less than 30% of VCCs were used yesterday and there were lots of crew sitting around on standby. This is of course good news because it shows the strike does not have much support, however the longhaul schedule for next week is actually smaller than the last day of the strikes in March even though there are at least as many people willing to work and more volunteers now available. I just feel BA are being a little too conservative with the resources they clearly have available. It would have been a great headline tonight for BA to issue a press release saying because the strike is so ineffective, we are increasing the longhaul program at LHR from 60% to 70% next week. Because they are being very conservative, they are not able to announce this.

[Tiramisu]

Latest from Duncan Holley
The media are turning, mainly because they cannot believe this strike is still ongoing for the simple reason he wants to "punish" strikers. I have spoken over the last few days to every media outlet available (except the Daily Mail) and they are horrified. Even the Daily Telegraph said to me last night - "the problem is Walsh you know". Hello?


Is the Branch Secretary really that naive?
All they are doing is trying to sell a story and the media are fickle when it comes to doing that. Look at the Daily Mail for instance, on one hand they were printing all the s*** about BASSA reps, now they are supposed to be telling DH that WW is the problem? Their stories have never always been in BA's favour but there have been times when they were. Having dealt with the media in the past, they will sympathise with you for the few minutes you are there just to get what they want, which is to sell newspapers and what they print is not always what they've said they would.

I'm BA cabin crew who is proud to cross the picket line.

[Max Tow]

BentleyH
I think you'll find BA are confirming the already announced reduced programme - see the following (5-9th June) strike period where the provisional reduced programme has been on BA.com for some time and will be confirmed next week.
Also bear in mind that most of the key premium passengers have flexible tickets and could already have cancelled/postponed/ moved to other carriers and no doubt many did so immediately after the strike announcement, as they quite understandably didn't wish to wait & take the risk. With round 2 of the global financial crisis apparently underway, there's plenty of availability to reaccommodate. Under these circumstances, flight consolidation is sensible - re-instating unneeded flights just to irritate the BFC spotters might not be.

[wiggy]

In some ways, a temporarily reduced operation with 100pc of staff "on board" might be more likely to restore a proud brand & win back the travelling public

Must admit that that idea had crossed my mind as well, with BA slowly increasing the schedule as more new Cabin Crew come out of training. Not sure how the economics stack up and it might lead to slot retention problems but I bet it's been considered.

[Stiffco]

With regard to VCC, Caribbean Boy wrote

would lose quite a bit if high up the incremental scale.The bloated incremental scale of flying staff, what is it now 26 or 27 years? Is not enjoyed by the majority of the company, how about 3 or 7 years. :ouch:

Those of us that are unhappy with our lot, should take a long hard look at the current unemployment figures. There is a huge talent pool out there who will jump a the chance of filing our shoes. Lets face it, Asda floorwalker or BA crew - no contest really. :=:=

[flapsforty]

Moderator Tightslot posts :
Reminder - In order to post on this thread, you must be currently serving airline staff. Please use the Pax/SLf forum thread for your comments if you are not currently serving airline staff.

* * * * * * * * * *
What about external BA shareholders ?

Aren't they the most important 'currently-serving airline staff' of all ?

Because, without them, there simply ain't an airline.

Perhaps their views should be encouraged on this Airline Staff thread. It would be interesting to see whether they support WW and his business-focused activities on behalf of BA shareholders, or unions which claim to be protecting their interests.

Wilbur Gunn.
BA Shareholder since 1997.

Mr/mrs Gunn, this forum and this thread are not here for the benefit of BA shareholders. Your (very real) importance to BA is not relevant here, since we at PPRuNe are not BA.

This thread is here to provide BA CC with a unbiased, bully & intimidation (from BOTH sides) free arena to exchange ideas.
BA CC can get the shareholders´ and pax´opinions elsewhere, but they can not find an unbiased arena anywhere else.

It has taken and still takes a lot of moderator work to keep this thread from sliding to the depths displayed elsewhere, but we see it as a service to our cabin crew colleagues in BA.
We Mods are cabin crew doing our bit for cabin crew, and secondarily for fellow aviation professionals like pilots, ground staff, engineers and anybody else currently employed in aviation, whose working lives may well be affected by the outcome of this dispute.

We are not here for the shareholders.

[64K]

Once again, some disgusting and unprofessional behaviour from BASSA. Their open topped bus has been going past a hotel at Heathrow, used by BA crew, other airline crew and the public, at slow speed with chants of 'SCABBIN CREW'. How mature - I'm sure this will earn support from those trying to rest...!

[BentleyH]

Max Tow,

The 5th of June currently shows a complete schedule. There are no cancelled flights. Everyone remains booked based on the full schedule until the cancellations are announced. Take a look at the arrivals and departures section of ba.com.

I thinks it's great we are maintaining the current schedule with ease, but I think in order to finally defeat BASSA for good, we really should be moving towards an even bigger flying program. That's what is finally going to leave the loonies out in the cold.

[PC767]

Post 3760.

Fly73 discussed the amount of crew on 2hr standby, between 30 and 40 plus VCCs. They imply that the strike is waning and BA is maintaining its reduced operation.

However, they also state that the reason for their own extended standby duty was due to their flight being cancelled, and that the 30-40 other crew also had flights cancelled.

With so many crew and VCCs hanging about, for days, why are additional flights not being reinstated and the battle to break the strike accelerated.

Or does this reflect that the strike isn't going entirely BAs way with additional flights having to be cancelled.

[demomonkey]

Why isn't anyone videoing the BASSA bus and its crew of crazies to use in disciplinaries. Legal strikes are one thing, being a complete bunch of muppets is another.

[BentleyH]

PC 767

Just to be clear, there hasn't been a single additional cancellation outside of the initial list since the strike began, so BA is extremely well placed based on its initial plan. From a number of our own experiences, it's clear however that BA has more resource available than required to fly the current schedule and my frustration is that it doesn't expand the operation to make use of those willing to work.

[Meal Chucker]

Once again, some disgusting and unprofessional behaviour from BASSA. Their open topped bus has been going past a hotel at Heathrow, used by BA crew, other airline crew and the public, at slow speed with chants of 'SCABBIN CREW'. How mature - I'm sure this will earn support from those trying to rest...!


Couldn't agree more - How do these so called caring crew justify this behaviour?

Here's a comment from The Sun yesterday which sums it up nicely -

BA cabin crew partied in the sun as thousands of travellers faced misery | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2985994/BA-cabin-crew-partied-in-the-sun-as-thousands-of-travellers-faced-misery.html)

BA cabin crew partied in the sun yesterday - as thousands of travellers faced misery. Picket-line strikers wore fancy dress, blew whistles and did the CONGA, in full view of Heathrow passengers.
Flag-waving staff circled the airport in an open-top bus, while in a nearby field a mini CARNIVAL was held - with a marquee, balloons and workers' kids enjoying the sun.
IT expert Andy Patterson, whose flight to Geneva was cancelled, said: "Picketers were sun-bathing, swigging drinks and dancing. Women were dressed like they were at a hen party. I was disgusted."

[Llademos]

BentleyH - like you I also hope that the cancellations would decrease with the growing numbers of CC turning up to work. I would think, though, the first flight to be cancelled 'on the day' will be greeted with headlines and glee from the parts of the press that claim to be even-handed but aren't (BBC anyone?) and so the planners are being ultra-cautious. I would love to see a 100% LH programme announced, though - perhaps this will happen in the final 5 day strike.

I'm looking forward to working over the Bank Holiday and make no bones about my job as a 'Backing BA' volunteer, which is to undermine the strikers and, selfishly, to ensure I have a job in 12 months time.

Ll

[Wirbelsturm]

Latest from Duncan Holley
The media are turning, mainly because they cannot believe this strike is still ongoing for the simple reason he wants to "punish" strikers. I have spoken over the last few days to every media outlet available (except the Daily Mail) and they are horrified. Even the Daily Telegraph said to me last night - "the problem is Walsh you know". Hello?


I wonder who is giving the delightful Mr Holley his media briefings?

I remember years back to when I had the good fortune to attend a course on dealing with the press which was tutored by some of Fleet streets finest hacks. Their take on newspaper journolism followed, roughly, this:

The newspaper journilist is, will be and always will be your 'bestest' buddy if you are an ordinary Joe Public or minor official who holds no power or public voice. They will agree to everything you say, accept your viewpoint and sympathise with your stance. They will press you to explain whilst stoking your anger/emotions in order to try to make you lose control and provide information you possibly didn't want to divulge. Once they have plumbed the depths of your position and garnered every sound bite, information morsel and scoop they can they will conclude the interview.

What they write in the piece afterwards very, very rarely resembles what you thought you said in the interview or what you believed their opinion on your stance was. All told, from the Fleet street hacks themselves, stick purely to facts, don't employ rhetoric and keep calm when dealing with the press.

Good luck Mr Holley, it seems you have messed up on your media course in the same way you did at BA. Hope your attendence record at Unite is better than your last one.

I await the future press releases with unreserved glee.

[R2D2-LHR]

Does anybody have any updates on the turnout and atmosphere at Bedfont today as I haven't heard anything? :ok:

[Hand Solo]

Apparently somebody turned up with a box of Krispy Kremes for them yesterday, to show BA staff support them! Probably told them that he loved them at the same time.:E

[Hotel Mode]

Watching SKY right now, no more than 30-40 people in wide shot of bedfont. Car park very empty.

[Dixie Dean]

WW gave a presentation at Waterside today. No major news, apart from new fleet recruitment will start soon.

Meanwhile over on the BASSA forum, they thought today was the day WW was going to announce he was moving on from BA.

Dixie

[Eddy]

GMiss M, how dare you accuse those of us who have gone in to work of being spineless.

(On Blackberry so cannot start new line, so fogive the unusual formatting of this post)

Coming into work on a strike day is a scary and difficulkt thing to do. Largely because the decision is such an important one and there is always an element of doubt in any sane person's mind as to whether what they have done is right. But also because, while I won't shout names at you, ignore you on flights, leave notes in your dropfile, threaten and intimidate you for having gone on strike, it is a very real prospect for those who have gone to work that they may endure all of the above at the hands of our striking colleagues.

I have always said i respect the decision of those who have gone on strike. I have defended those people on here in the face of criticism from people who should often keep their noses out - i just wonder why the same luxury cannot be afforded to those of us who, like you, have made a personal decision - albeit a different one to your own.

[ranger07]

Not sure how other folk on here feel, but, on viewing the pathetic and puerile behaviour of these (unprintable words), I really do not wish for them to return within the employment of British Airways. To know that I'll be working within the same company as such morons, knowing of such disloyal militant behaviour that could flare up again over goodness knows what.

I've always had sympathy for those that have lost their jobs, houses etc, families struggling through no fault of their own, absolutely heartbreaking and would'nt wish unemployment on anyone.

But these load of (unprintable) who think the company owe them a living, stick their fingers up at all those that have done so much (working for free etc) to help the airline in its dire need, should not be back within the employment of BA. I'm dam angry, imagine how those who have lost their jobs must feel.

Just hope this concludes without the return of the afforementioned.

[Hand Solo]

At the update in Waterside today Willie stated that New Fleet recruitment would begin soon. With staff travel gone forever a large number of commuters are going to be looking for new jobs soon, so I suspect some of the worst militants will be removed from BA by that natural wastage.

[Eddy]

Regarding the above from HandSolo, has Mr. Walsh commented again on staff travel since the start of the new strikes to confirm that even his compromise of seniority-free staff travel has now been fully revoked?

[BentleyH]

He did say it would be revoked for good if there were any more strikes....as they are currently on strike again, I guess that's it then!

I though Laurel and Hardy were due a visit to Bedfont today to stoke up the troops?? Or was it just so Simpson could send another pathetic tweet?

Maybe their train has broken down again or something?

[R2D2-LHR]

Woodley and Simpson at Bedfont today from the BBC:

BBC News - BA strike: British Airways and Unite to resume talks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10159911.stm)

[skylight]

Negotiations between British Airways and Unite over the cabin crew dispute have resumed...according to the latest sky news....
More tweets!!!!

[Betty girl]

Alot of you seem to be wondering why the flying programme cannot be increased.

Although there are alot of crew reporting, alot of the pilots on the 747 and airbus are the volunteers. So there would have to be alot of crew, who did strike, return to work first for the programme to be increased. Or more non pilot volunteers to be trained up and I think this is happening now.

For example on eurofleet there are less pilots because some of them are the volunteers.

Spoke to Bill Francis yesterday and he said that they would increase the programme but only when they are sure that they can crew the flight. They do not want unhappy people in the terminal talking to the media about cancelled flights.

[fruitbat]

Apparently 76% of crew turned up to work today.

And latest from BA:

May 30-June 3 schedule
We will be increasing our flying schedule during Unite’s threatened five day strike (May 30, 31 and June 1, 2, 3) after more cabin crew than expected decided to work as normal during this week’s industrial action.

Our Heathrow longhaul schedule will be increased to more than 70 per cent of flights (up from more than 60 per cent this week). Our Heathrow shorthaul schedule will increase to more than 55 per cent of flights (up from more than 50 per cent this week). We will continue to fly to every shorthaul destination on our network.

Services from Gatwick and London City airports will continue to operate as normal.

[Meal Chucker]

Alot of you seem to be wondering why the flying programme cannot be increased.


According to Willie at the colleague forum today, the schedule for second set of strike dates sees LHR long haul increasing from 60% to 70% and short haul from 50% to 55%.

Other points from the forum are -

Willie is predicting an end to the dispute soon.
The letter sent to Unite yesterday concerning preserving evidence is not about appealing the judge's refusal of an injunction, BA's lawyers are looking into what course of action if any can be taken, as there could still be a court case into whether the strike was legal or not.
Willie said that he was going from the forum to talks with Woodley, he added that we'd probably be able to read the results via twitter anyway!
He also mentioned Woodley's offer to give strikers back unconditional staff travel and Unite would suspend the strike as ridiculous, unite could then go back to the negotiations without actually agreeing anything, a position that we should have been at 15 months ago'.

[Hand Solo]

I found this particular bit of speculation from one of the Bedfont loonies highly amusing:

Just back from Bedfont as well.

The skies were pretty empty of BA planes til it was announced that Messrs. Woodley and Simpson had arrived....all of a sudden there was a flurry of BA departures...all seeming to be full throttle departures, as the few other a/c departing were far quieter and LOWER than the BA a/c.

Were I a conspiracy theorist, I would use this opportunity to suggest, that BA had planned this rapid and close flurry of departures to take place at that appointed moment.

Just shows you what we're dealing with!

[Wirbelsturm]

all seeming to be full throttle departures, as the few other a/c departing were far quieter and LOWER than the BA a/c.


Nothing to do with the legal requirement to do standard departures from Heathrow then? Of course the rules could be broken by BA just to make a petty point couldn't they?

BASSA bless 'em, never let the truth get in the way of a good story, must be one of Duncans new ones.

[Dutchjock]

I just LOVE those full throttle departures!! :ugh:

I'm sure BA stopped boarding all those passengers and keep the planes on the gate to await the tweeet that Woodley had arrived... :{

[VSOP Fables]

We had 4 guys from CWL up at T5, BackingBA as CSP volunteers. What stars! :D

[skylight]

Appreciate the update Mealchucker.:)

[64K]

Are people forgetting that the next CEO has already been announced? Current Chief Financial Officer Keith Williams will take over as CEO when Willie moves on to head up International Airlines Group (i.e. BA + IB).

Do people really think that the person who currently controls the airline's finances will decide that actually these savings don't need to be made anymore? :ugh:

(Views above are my own, not those of my employer)

[dick whitt]

I am fairly sure I heard him say he was due to start his new position on 1st Jan at the presentation today, although I was listening over a video link and it wasn't too clear.
It was in response to a three part question from a shareholder sat in the audience at Waterside.

[Spanner in the works]

Didn't the guy with the first question at Willie's forum today ask if it was true WW was leaving his post on 18th June?

WW replied, first I've heard of it - then said something like - "1st January actually".

But that's not really news.

What gets me with this personal campaign is that even if WW said this evening "sod it, I'm off", KW would carry on with exactly the same stance.
Would the union then denounce him and similarly demonise him too?

Mind you - KW does a good "death by Powerpoint".
A couple of hours of that and you'd agree to anything. :eek:
Surely contravenes Geneva conventions somehow.

[giza]

" Quote from Duncan, "For example - he said yesterday that 2000 BASSA members have left because of the recent strikes.

Only one person knows the exact figure and that is me. I checked this morning and since Jan 1, 568 members have stopped paying into the payroll, so Walsh is lying."



I think he was very clear that he said 2000 members have left unite, these are not just cabin crew, but unite members from other departments who are appalled that unite will not stand up to BASSA

Im backing BA:ok:

[From Tunbridge Wells]

Why do some crew go to work one day and then BFC the next?!

because the poor sods are probably scared witless

[DeThirdDefect]

I can't believe that BA don't know in which departments the 2000 people who've left Unite work.

I assume they're sitting on the number of how many of them are cabin crew and that they'll release them when they can be used most effectively.

[Hand Solo]

It seems people have been throwing water bombs and eggs at the open top bus BASSA are using to parade the militants around. :eek:

[ArthurScargill]

I can't believe that BA don't know in which departments the 2000 people who've left Unite work.

I assume they're sitting on the number of how many of them are cabin crew and that they'll release them when they can be used most effectively.


Its probably not that huge a number from cabin crew really. About the 500-1000 mark thats been mentioned. However thats 5-10%. not a small amount either.
What i do KNOW is that the 5 people who were members of UNITE before Christmas in my team have all resigned. We're not a heavily unionised department as it happens but those who are/were in UNITE are very disapointed with the union.

[MissM]

Beagle9

Some protection? BA will not let current crew sit at home not being used whilst paying them, whether through MTP or any other form of payment. If you actually believe it, I don't know what to say. Nobody can guarantee long-term protection because things change but allowing New Fleet to go ahead it would be to sell ourselves down the river.

HiFlyer14

The strike is working. Why else would BA go to court again? WW claims 75% of rostered crew have reported for duty. Amusing as the flight schedules have not been increased. Who else would be included in these 75% do you think? VCC, ICC, temporary crew and crew rostered for SEP and such possibly?

I'm glad you don't have any regrets for reporting for duty during the strike. I don't have any regrets for NOT reporting for duty. I would do it again and I have no intention, unless the strike is called off, of getting anywhere near CRC for some time. June 10th at the earliest.

demomonkey

There is a cause. I never would have gone on strike, and lost both ST and hundreds of pounds, if there hadn't been a cause. Neither BA or BASSA are innocent. They have both made huge mistakes in the past but I have very little in faith in BA which I why I have chosen to support my union.

Chuchinchow

This beggars belief! I wonder how many other "actions" were taken by BASSA "out of boredom"?

I don't know. I guess you would have to ask BASSA!

[essessdeedee]

maybe there just are'nt any flights operating so crew not needed....

after the day I've had....... there are definately flights operating!

[Hotel Mode]

Amusing as the flight schedules have not been increased.

Erm yes they have. Its now 70% longhaul/55 shorthaul. Indeed 2 trips were brought back today at short notice. A MIA and a BOS.

I have very little in faith in BA which I why I have chosen to support my union.


I think you need to remember which one of the 2 pays you. You really should leave if you have no faith in BA.

but allowing New Fleet to go ahead it would be to sell ourselves down the river.


Its too late for that. BASSA forced new fleet to go ahead. They had a good deal last june with no new fleet, but went for fingers in ears and no negotiation. New fleet recruitment will start straight after the end of the protected period.

[giza]

Willy was on fine form today at the employee forum, confident in his action and proud of those backing BA, for the first time he mention figures, 875 crew turned up for work today, about 75%, he announced increased flights being operated for the remiander of this week, and a full 70% from next week.

When he said the strikers would not get there ST back, he got a round of applause. He did not sound to me like the "desperate man" that BASSA portray.

Now what do you read into this, he said he would have enough crew to operate 100% after the strike, regardless of how many strikers were back at work !!!!!

I`m Backing BA:D

[wiggy]

The strike is working. Why else would BA go to court again?

BA haven't gone back to court again - this was clarified earlier in the day. BA reminded UNITE of the need for them (UNITE) to preserve documents in the event of a possible legal challenge - standard legal procedure. Some news agencies got hold of this and misinterpreted this as BA going to court again.

[Juan Odeboyse]

There's an awful lot on this forum about cabin crew going into work because of loss of pay and ST. That just isn't true! I'm actually down route and haven't had to go into work opposing the strike (although I would have still gone in) because my roster didn't put me in that position. Many crew, and all of my friends are opposing the strike because we are anti - BASSA. I'm down route but resigned my BASSA membership because I don't believe in them any more. Do we actually have your support, or are you just anti-cabin crew?

I want an end to this action. I support BA. I'm not anti any BA employee who is working for the good of BA. How many of you are with me?


This is a classic example of a crew member who has no clue what is going on...if Birdchen is an actual crew member. I'm not in Bassa but am on strike so what does that say to you Bridchen? Do you really know what walsh has in line for you/us...do you understand the intricacies of NF/your new pension sceme/zero promotion/SH +LH work/etc/etc...you would do yourself a favour (and 'your friends') and get down to Bedfont and see and hear for yourself just what your future might hold for you.

We ALL want an end to this action, only one person can do that - walsh.

BTW - The thousands at Bedfont today ALL support BA and in a much bigger way than most who make comment on this thread.

[Meal Chucker]

BTW - The thousands at Bedfont today ALL support BA and in a much bigger way than most who make comment on this thread.


That made me laugh - more please!!:)

[Juan Odeboyse]

Just completed two days of flying. All my flights were full. Carried two Prem pax who both said thanks to me and my crew for flying through the IA. I can't tell you how lovely it is at work during this IA. All the crew are happy and relaxed. On non strike days there is a large elephant sitting in the briefing room and on the plane, and every one knows it is there but nobody can talk about it! During the strike it has been great. Lots of dedicated caring crew who are coming to work because that is what we are paid to do. We are all free to discuss the IA and we all agree that BASSA has gone completely mad.
Passengers get off and hold your hand and say thank you. It is really strange but uplifting.
I am working because this is a pointless strike and will achive nothing. I can assure all you striking crew, that the CRC was full and more flights will be operated next week.
The union is lying to you all.


Speaking of Prems, I heard one was at Bedfont today - the one who has taken out many ads in the national press - continuing to support CC and hoping walsh leaves sooner rather than later - did'nt see him myself unfortunately as I was on flag waving duty around the airport. :)

So I ask you Betty Girl - what do you think is the reason why thousands of your colleagues are taking this action and standing firm in the midst of serious bullying by BA mangement, I ask as from what you have said, I do not think you have a clue as to what is actually going on around you.

[Juan Odeboyse]

mealchucker - glad to brighten your day up!

[Watersidewonker]

Great turnout today at Bedfont today many new faces and a great feeling amongst the crowd that the little man is getting desperate. We can be proud we are standing up to the little bullying chap called William. I hope the vols are enjoying being used and being used they are what price dignity.

[Spanner in the works]

Even better was the first chap to ask a question.
Gave a long definition of the word "threat" from a dictionary.

WW said, look-up the word "promise".

[ottergirl]

Back from a Eurofleet trip with a full crew. Handed over by/to two full crews as well! Not a VCC anywhere in sight. I did overhear a conversation in CRC of a crew member I know fairly well who was on strike last time but "I've done my bit so I've come in because I need the cash!" My crew manager said she had taken two calls from amongst her team of crew who wanted to know what incentive they had for coming to work; would they get their staff travel back if they came in this time? She politely pointed out that the incentive was that they'd get paid! Unsurprisingly they both later reported!

WW needs do nothing but wait. At this rate BASSA can cancel BFC and hire a tennis court for next week.;)

[Meal Chucker]

standing firm in the midst of serious bullying by BA mangement

Can you provide any facts to back up this claim?


glad to brighten your day up!


Seriously, I really appreciate the time taken to post and reply on here, I have access to BF and CF so I know what pro-bassa crew think of this site - This thread could do with more posters like you - Thanks! :D

[Meal Chucker]

we are standing up to the little bullying chap called William


Can you provide any facts to back up this claim?

[fruitbat]

Juan

Do you honestly believe there were 'thousands' at BFC?! You need to stay off the bus juice my friend...

[Juan Odeboyse]

So Holley is the one lying, isn't he?

Hi Chico,
why not visit Bedfont FC yourself and speak to Duncan face to face, he is there virtually all of the time.

In fact an open invitation to all and find out for yourselves the true feeling of the CC. Its a very welcome place, the smile on the burger van owners' face is the biggest, new large marquee at the back (thats where you will find the samosas) and a friendly bunch of CC to answer all of your Q's.
Seriously though think about visiting and speaking to any there as to what we feel/ think this is all about.

PS Forgot to mention free whistles in a box by the coffee bar!

Today yes friutbat. I had to park in the field along the road and I was in the 12th line of parked cars, with many more having arrived after me. What with all pickets totally manned, battle bus continually touring, the place was still heaving. Speaking to some press that were there, they said they were impressed by the turnout and the passion of the many there.

"outbursts" gatwickba...where are the outbursts in the comments you have copied. I thought facts were being stated - but then again in the eyes of some that is a sackable offence - sad really.

[Bees Knees]

Thanks to all CC who have been coming to work, also all VCC and not forgetting those backfilling the VCC to ensure they can be released.

My department has put projects on hold or go slow and the delays will ultimately be costing the company money but it's all hands to the pump to protect the company who pays the wages for all of us, not just the striking few.

[Pornpants1]

Well, today was totally different from yesterday. Obviously because of the appearance of Tony and Derek there was a huge crowd which was great because these guys need to see the support for the strike remains as strong as ever and I know they were impressed. I also know that Tony was quite moved by the couple of minutes private chat he had with a few who were there who have been sacked. I also think, after today's performance, Derek has a future career at the London Palladium, but don't twitter him to tell him!

I know a lot of you get very frustrated by UNITE's apparent old-fashioned ways but I do feel both men must have been touched by the rally today. The banter, the jokes were crew at their charming best. I was watching from the top of the bus - it looked fabulous and the cameras caught the mood.

The day started quite well for me when I turned up at the club house and was presented with a load of XXXX cakes. Thanks to the baker. But after 5 minutes all went a bit sour when a photographer wandered in and said he was from the Daily Mail. Needless to say he was dispatched with a flea in his ear and a Foxtrot Oscar instruction. He won't be coming back.

It was so heartening again to see more Bedfont virgins ie first time strikers. It was also good to see people who had worked in the initial days of the dispute who were now having trouble sleeping and had decided this time "not to show". You are all welcome - it is not too late to repent. The BASSA Bedfont church is a very rowdy one but also a forgiving one.

But, one of the reasons I want to come onto this forum tonight is to pay my respect to the commuters out there, particularly those who are not British. I have been so impressed at how brave you people are. You may live in another country, which you would think would make it easy to turn your back on this very British strike - but no, not only have you joined the strike but you have done it knowing that your commute to work will now be arduous, expensive and in some cases almost impossible.

In recent days so many "British born" crews have told me at Bedfont how much they respect the many Europeans commuters who have given up so much more than them and how that makes them feel so sad that crew living in London or nearby have come to work so they can still keep their staff travel for holidays.

Can I say that we British born crew owe all you Europeans (and Americans etc) a massive debt of gratitude. Your presence in our airline has enriched us all and now you are showing us the way to be brave.

The commuters who use staff travel are the ones that have been hardest hit; it would have been understandable if many had chosen the easy option and gone to work, but the fact that you haven't has really filled me with pride and humility. I really do salute you - and next time you see me at Bedfont - mine is a San Mig!!!!

There were a lot of journos there today and I spoke to most. They were so impressed at the camaraderie and the friendliness. But that's cabin crew for you. It came as no surprise to me.

I speak for all the reps - It is a privilege to represent every godamn (XXXX) one of you.

Rgds Duncan

And to the person who told me I had put on weight today - please ignore this message it does not refer to you.

See you all tomorrow.

Well Well Well just like the "I went to work"and "42 year old Stewardess" rant, same old style same old rhetoric!! Ticking all the emotional boxes well done, pity only 25% of staff fall for it!!! and he has been on a media course you would think he would learn.

Been busy since I got back form leave (2000 emails), but some things don't change, juan Odeboy whatever still coming out with his one liners, still refusing to answer questions:sad: cos lets face it he does not know the answers, after all juan your not a BASSA member:ok:


FYI

Short haul flights are not being stood up, because there is little point at this late stage. The selling window is just too short.

The company planned on operating 16x 747 per day this week, they achieved 24 today excluding freighters, some went empty with just crew but in most cases the company now have a 48 hr plus selling window plus extra freight.

Miss M, your info is well out of date, BA are not going for another injunction, that's yesterdays news, the least you could do is keep up;)

75% of crew required to report today(excluding VCC and those crew downroute) turned up today, oh dear BASSA, and to think the hot gossip on the picket line today for the 30 or so that turned up (it was cloudy after all) was that WW was going to resign..........muppets:ok:

standing firm in the midst of serious bullying by BASSA, hey Juan do they know your eating all the xxxx cakes and your not even a member:E

[Golden Ticket]

I haven't felt bullied by anybody, striker, non-striker or management.

I feel Unite by leaving itself open to court actions and using unnecessary imagery to further their cause was reprehensible.

Unite should have kept it's mouth shut over the bullying allegations and then backed the company when it reinstated those who no case was found and sacking those where bullying was proven.

Unite has proved itself incompetent as a union and failing it's members by appearing childish in it's dealings.

Time for a new union. Somebody who represents it's members in a dignified,proper and professional fashion.

[Juan Odeboyse]

Sorry Bees Knees but you have got it all wrong.

Tonight I want you to think back to the start of walsh's time at BA and realise that since then we have been on a slippery downward path. In the morning hopefully you will have realised that just ONE person has torn our family apart so much and the sooner walsh goes the better for us all.

[demomonkey]

Posted by: Juan Odeboyse (http://www.pprune.org/members/323404-juan-odeboyse) in post 3856
I'm not in Bassa but am on strike so what does that say to you Bridchen?It says your a bit foolish taking illegal strike action.

[Juan Odeboyse]

dem momkey why do you say I have taken illegal action?

[Pornpants1]

you obviously do not know Duncan.

Out of respect then Juan Odeboyo why don't you sign up to BASSA and back them as opposed to just stealing their beer, burgers and cakes????

Not holding my breath for an honest answer:yuk:

[courtney]

Juan, if you are BA cc and are not a union member and are on strike then you are in breach of contract and can be instantly dismissed. Only union members are allowed to strike.

[Golden Ticket]

Juan he shouldn't have anywhere else to go he's supposed to be supporting you. Well not you as your not in bassa. He shouldn't have anything else planned.

[demomonkey]

Juan, if you're not a member of the union you can't be part of the strike (i.e. be protected legally). So technically you must be absent without due cause and therefore liable for disciplinary action. If I were you I'd turn up at your next report and keep your head down and hope BA don't notice and think you were one of the strikers who gave up and came back to work naturally. Otherwise how else can you survive a disciplinary should BA find out?

Even if you joined BASSA at 8am tomorrow, you were technically in breach of contract prior to this. Probably a good idea to stop reading so much BASSA propaganda too, what other trouble have they got you into?

These are my personal opinions, not those of my employer.

[essessdeedee]

you obviously do not know Duncan

Met him..... can't say I was impressed.

[Bees Knees]

Juan,

I understand you don't like Willie but do you really think he has all the power you say he does? And that if he went then BASSA would get everything it asked for and the world would go back to the 'good ole days'?

He's just the front man for the board's wishes, and if it wasn't him it would be someone else......as you will find out when Keith takes over and follows the same line.

I'm sorry you aren't happy with your lot, but we've all (well most of us) made sacrifices and I for one will be very unhappy if I subsequently lose my job due to cuts made to keep you in yours at your current Ts and Cs

[License to Fly]

who is to say that behind closed doors, mass recruitment/training is not going on already .... it must be - 100% of flights can be operated at any future strikes, it certainly is the beginning of the end


BACKING BA and our customers

[demomonkey]

From Duncan's Summary of Today:
The commuters who use staff travel are the ones that have been hardest hit; it would have been understandable if many had chosen the easy option and gone to work, but the fact that you haven't has really filled me with pride and humility. I really do salute you - and next time you see me at Bedfont - mine is a San Mig!!!!So lets get this straight Duncan? You with your cosy, cushy, safe union number in the bag are saluting CC not resident in the UK because they're making so much of a sacrifice and to show your immense gratitude you want them to buy you a beer?

Maybe when those people who followed your suicidal route because you told them only to read your side of the story have lost their jobs (and I genuinely hope not) you could organise a whip-round so they could buy you a nice Mont Blanc pen for when you're at your fancy union meetings sipping Latte with TW and DS et al.

I hope you're waiving their monthly union subs this month?

You have no moral compass Holley!

[Wirbelsturm]

Some within BASSA might say that shortsightedness and a stubborn unwillingness to face facts are admirable trends.

I do find it odd though that only one department within the whole of BA has a problem with Willie Walsh. That department is the only one that hasn't modified its working practices to reflect the modern working environment. That department has clung on to the initial contract deal through beligerence and the constant, year on year, threat of IA.

Then that department wonder why they seem to feel they have been 'singled out','picked on','bullied and harrassed' etc.

Have a look at the rest of BA. The rest of the company who are protecting their jobs after accepting negotiated changes. The rest of the company who have had enough of the ways of BASSA.

The investors don't want BASSA. The rest of the workforce don't want BASSA. The simple fact that the company can train volunteers to replace those BASSA militants or those too scared/stupid to wake up and smell the coffee, just shows you how easily replaceable you are.

Finally, for God's sake will someone teach the proles in the BASSA heirarchy how to count.

p.s. Juan/DH Be careful how you treat any member of the press. In the cold light of day they play their 'love to hate you' games between them. Behind the scenes however there is a vast amount of collaboration. Sending the Daily Mail photographer off with a 'flea in his ear' and a Foxtrot Oscar just sums up the immaturity of your organisation and will reflect negatively in the press. But then you know that from your media briefing don't you.

[WillieJerks]

I currently work for British Airways but not as flight or cabin crew - so am I allowed to post to the 'British Aiways vs. BASSA' thread ?

It got posted - but perhaps it'll be removed ! :ouch:

[flapsforty]

Which part of "... people presently employed as airline staff" is causing the confusion WJ?

[report call sign]

***AN UPDATE FROM WILLIES FORUM TODAY AT WATERSIDE***

A friend of mine that was there has told me that a Question was asked yet again about "staff travel"
Willie ONCE AGAIN reaffirmed that he WILL NOT be offering any gesture on the staff travel and HE WILL NOT be going back on his word
HOW FANTASITIC- BRAVO! PLEASE WILLIE DO NOT GO BACK ON YOUR WORD< you have thousands that support your decisions
ALSO, there WILL be serious consequences???

As I say I was not there, however can someone confirm these comments
many thanks

[Hand Solo]

It's such a shame Juan isn't in BASSA, otherwise he could have read this:

a message to the 12, yes 12, who went in for the 2nd half of our back 2 back this morn to ***. i know most of you went in hoping to be sent home and you got your wish. but you still went in, counted towards WW figures and therefore are strike breakers. i am sorry i wasted my breath on you all in boston. please do not ask me for any favours in the future. well done *********...we were strong !

[AtlasDrawer]

It does not seem to be on here, so thought I would post it:

That talks between BA and UNITE that were held through ACAS have been adjourned to a later date. On ESS news it does not say when though.


Quite interesting, wonder what the next move will be?

[bermudatriangle]

arrived into terminal 5 this afternoon.....most stands were empty,usually occupied by a mixture of long and shorthaul aircraft.immigration was deserted and only 1 flight had luggage on the reclaim belt.the whole situation was far removed from a normal days operation.how long can this senario continue ??

[Tiramisu]

Bermudatriangle,
I have operated every day of the strike so far. As previously posted my 767 flight on Monday left without an empty seat.
I operated this evening again on an A321 and again my flight was packed, so is my return flight back tomorrow. T5 was also vey busy when we arrived at our departure gate.
Please don't be disheartened, it won't be for long now. Another fortnight and it will all be over. In the meantime we are all doing our very best, and I know every department in BA is working way beyond and above their normal hours.

I'm BA cabin crew who is proud to cross the picket line.

[tenko]

I'm so upset with all the self important rubbish that has been posted on this site. This is people's livelihoods you are talking about and to be honest none of you care about that, it's all about YOU and your opinion. Please look at the bigger picture. Don't you see that what they have to give up is a lot to ask of anyone, and if the shoe was on the other foot you would be out theer fighting your cause. Let me remind you of the Openskies situation that happened not so long ago. What's to say that the Cirrus rumour is not something you should be worried about?

I have had enough, this is my life you are playing God with and I can't take it anymore. I'm at the end of my rope with all this. I'm not even sure who I can talk to, confide in, or even believe these days. I look at everything that has happened over the last couple of years and I CANNOT SEE A WAY OUT.

I've never felt so low in my life and after giving so much to a company I have loved and been proud to work for, for so long I don't know where to go now.

I'm in a situation where I could loose everything I have worked for, for so long and yes I CAN HEAR YOU ALL SAY, That's my choice, but hey if this was you wouldn't you do the same thing and stand up for what you believe in.

I've give so much to this Company for the last 16 years and to be honest I don't think I'm over paid and I really have to despute the fact that I have under achieve. I'm full time and if you really want to know my earnings well it's just over £27,000. Now please look at yourselves and think how would you live on that?

These are hard times and everybody I know realises that but we are not fighting for anything more, just the right to keep what we have. I don't want to give up my flat and my life that I have worked so hard to keep just because there are people out there who are willing to do my job for a mere £11,000 and £2.40 ph. If they found pilots willing to do the same then you'll end up in the same boat.

This is a serious issure and the crew involved are nothing like the people you are talking about. They have fed and watered you for years.They have sat and shared their company with you and enjoyed your input. They have the same goal as you, which is to see the Company succeed. They are just not willing to do this at their expense.

Please stop all this bashing of your colleagues, they are afterall the eyes and ears of your flight, you need to be able to trust them and this is not helping.

I really believe that all you have to say is just helping to prolong the dispute. Let's sit back and look at the facts and think, What if this was me? What would i do? How would I react? What if the company wins, will they come after me next, after all I am the best paid pilot in the World!!!!!!!!!! Familiar???????

I'm a human being who has done everything to make sure my passengers I have on my flights get off and feel special. I give them everything I have and even though the product is not up to what is was I have managed to make up for that by just being me. I joined this company 16 years ago as a career choice and I really believed that I made a good choice, but now that is not enough. I have my mortgage based on my present earnings, not extravagant, but now that is too much, Where do we stop.

Please look at how you would deal with this...... How would you cope......... What if someone decided that you were overpaid and under achieving? .......... I'm alone in all this an I have no where to go. I can't see a way out........ I can't believe that school yard tactics are ruining my life. I want to do what I do really well, and I'll only give it up when I decide, not you or our management. What would you do if they said that you were to be replaced by cheaper younger staff. How would you feel?

Now saying all that, Look deep inside you, before you reply, I'm not interested in getting into a debate, My future is at stake here and I haven't even committed a crime.

Have some compassion and think about what you are saying because if this was you, I would. Just think about how Mr Walsh's success would affect you. Imagine how you would cope. I know there are no VCC out there who can replace yiou but there are plenty unemployed and well unless you are unique, no one is safe.

We just happen to be the largest group and well they will never stop there, we are just a way forward. A win for Mr Walsh is a way to prove that no one is safe.

I am sorry to put all this in writing, but I have just about had enough and if I'm really honest, I don't want to give up something I'm really good at and I'm really proud of. I want a future and I want to fall in love with my Company again. I want us all to live in harmony again. I don't want to fear a destroyed CRM situation which could end up costing lives.

Please people think about what you have to say and look at the facts. The future of your crew is at stake and if they manange to break us then it is only a matter of time before they visit you.

[Caribbean Boy]

There was a forum yesterday on the 2009/10 results presented by Keith Williams with Willie Walsh giving an update on the cabin crew dispute.

Some of Keith's presentation was about cabin crew productivity and cost, 1998 (the last time there was a cabin crew strike) compared with 2010.

Cabin crew manpower as a percentage of total manpower:
1998 26.0%
2010 31.3%

Cabin crew employment cost as a percentage of total employment cost:
1998: 20%
2010: 25%

Unit costs per flying hour:

Fleet 1997 2009 increase
WW 50.8 63.2 24.3%
EF 52.7 69.4 31.8%
LGW n/a 38.0

Willie Walsh then gave his update on the cabin crew dispute. He began by saying that he had to go to a secret meeting place afterwards.

He said that the operation was going well and he acknowledged the efforts of volunteers.

He said that 836 (or 75% of rostered cabin crew) had reported for work that day. As more crew were available than planned, more flights would be reinstated as follows (figures in brackets are the plans before the strike).

LH - over 70% (up from 60%)
SH - over 55% (up from 50%)

So, 75% of pax would fly (up from 70%).

He said that last Sunday he had agreed to ACAS talks at 1600 but Unite did not attend. Furthermore, Tony Woodley had cast doubt on the agreement which he thought had been settled, so he believed that Woodley was not in charge of the situation. A little later, he said that BASSA controls Woodley.

In the previous talks, he asked whether BASSA would accept the Way Forward Agreement and Derek Simpson said yes (for the first time).

He reiterated that it was important to reduce costs, but BASSA did not offer this. There was no point in taking industrial action, he won't change his mind.

He was asked about further cost reductions. On cabin crew, cost reductions would be achieved by existing cost savings plus New Fleet. He said that he didn't see much scope in further cost reductions as you can only reduce the business by so much. Indeed, he was looking to grow the business by, for instance, bringing four 747s back from storage.

On staff travel, he said that he had gone as far he could, so he did not accept Woodley's offer to return to the negotiation table in return for reinstating staff travel.

On legal matters, he said that BA will not be appealing the overturn of the injuction. However, BA has warned Unite that it is planning for a full hearing on the legality of the strike.

On being asked what representation cabin crew could get if they didn't want BASSA, he said that he was looking at options and would make a decision in the very near future.

[FreeWilly]

Duncan this, P45 that, Woodley this, Derek that etc etc..

What has happened to Lizanne? The person ultimately responsible for all this bollocks..

Has she turned up at BFC yet, or is she not a fan of samosas?

Or is she too busy having her kitchen fitted?

[WillieJerks]

Other Aircrew Forums > Cabin Crew > Airline Staff Only :confused:

But I'm now clear thanks.

[dns]

Freewilly,

Sod all has been heard from Ms Malone since she embarrassed herself in court in February...

[Hand Solo]

Probably doesn't want to spend the money on a ticket from LAX now she doesn't have staff travel.

[ChicoG]

Wasn't she off sick?

[winstonsmith]

Miss Malone has been off sick a long time - now suspended.

She has done SEP a couple of times but never returned to flying duties.

I wish she would do the whole company a huge favour and resign - BA does not need these kind people - take the rest of the BASSA brigade with you as you walk out the door.

As for Duncan Holley - I hope you never get anywhere near a BA uniform again.

Blood sucking selfish individuals.

Willie Walsh is right about 75% of rostered crew reporting for duty - I work in Ops and have seen the numbers myself.

[stormin norman]

So talks have been suspended untill friday,has anyone informed Walsh and Woodley that today is also a working day !

[DeThirdDefect]

Some of Keith's presentation was about cabin crew productivity and cost, 1998 (the last time there was a cabin crew strike) compared with 2010.

Cabin crew manpower as a percentage of total manpower:
1998 26.0%
2010 31.3%

Cabin crew employment cost as a percentage of total employment cost:
1998: 20%
2010: 25%
Not sure if that proves anything.
Given that job cuts in recent years have disproportionately affected back office staff, hasn't every customer-facing departments %age of the workforce increased?

[BlueUpGood]

On legal matters, he said that BA will not be appealing the overturn of the injuction. However, BA has warned Unite that it is planning for a full hearing on the legality of the strike.

For me, this is the most interesting thing Willy is quoted as saying. I have long wondered why nobody has challenged the lies and spin that BASSA have peddled throughout this long dispute. It seems clear to me that BASSA have obligations to it's members who pay hard earned cash to be professionally represented. It's also clear that BASSA have failed miserably in that responsibility, and that it has not been by accident or misfortune.

On the other hand, BA are facing significant costs as a result of BASSA's actions, and you can bet your bottom dollar BA have an extensive archive of every communication, action, inaction and 'birdsong' of of BASSA and UNITE. Ii's easy to imagine that a robust case of misconduct could be brought either against UNITE, of which BASSA is a constituent, or against the BASSA leadership.

On the matter of costs of the dispute, of course this is hurting BA badly. However, I had a very interesting conversation with a senior flight ops manager over the de-icing disruption last winter, where massed cancellations occurred. There are very significant savings to be made in pre-planning your schedule, and sticking to it. The benefits he highlighted were:

vastly reduced disruption to pax - rebooked or refunded
no hotels or subsistence as pax not arriving at terminals
no disgruntled pax on Sky News 24/7
savings on direct labour costs (CC allowances, disruption payments etc:ok:)
huge reduction in costs from fuel and operating charges (ATC etc)
reduction in engineering
reduction in airframe costs ( maintenance, lifed components etc)


Whilst there is a huge impact to the business, we are living in times where the airline is already making a loss. To selectively cancel flights which would lose you money, and merge them with others, thus increasing load factors to profitable levels (on an individual flight basis), BA can significantly mitigate the downside of this dispute.

Edited to add: on the legal challenge.. if BA took BASSA to court, and BASSA's shenanigans are exposed, and found wanting by a court, I think this would go a long way towards achieving a change of the mind-set of those who have only listened to BASSA, and they are likely to be very ticked off. Of course the hard-liners will never listen to reason, but it will give them something to mull over at the job centre.

[BlueUpGood]

Cabin crew employment cost as a percentage of total employment cost:
1998: 20%
2010: 25%
Not sure if that proves anything.

I think it proves every other department has done their bit, and everyone else are is paying for BASSA's 'sod off, we're not listening' approach to industrial relations. :ugh:

[ns68]

A friend of mine that was there has told me that a Question was asked yet again about "staff travel"
Willie ONCE AGAIN reaffirmed that he WILL NOT be offering any gesture on the staff travel and HE WILL NOT be going back on his word
HOW FANTASITIC- BRAVO! PLEASE WILLIE DO NOT GO BACK ON YOUR WORD< you have thousands that support your decisions
ALSO, there WILL be serious consequences???


Willie Walsh doesn't have to worry about giving staff travel back..it will be back in due course through a court case.I do not think this is the best scenario because it may take a longer time-hence the negotiations about it- but the legality of removing it for people who take industrial action is very much in doubt.
I am also shocked at comments made from fellow crew members who talk as they were heroes for going into work during IA .Good on you for going in..for backing BA the way you do.But you are not doing anything more or anything less than your colleagues have done over the past 30 years. You are just going into work.You are not saving peoples lives.You are just reporting for work as you should-(some people presenting receipts up to 100pounds worth for going in by taxy or by plane..if that what you call backing BA).
If others have decided not to,well,it is up to them after all. Whether or not I will support the strike, I find insulting the comments from most of forum posters who will be happy if staff travel wasn't returned.

[Middy]

£27,000 pa is twice what most crew at Gatwick earn and they come to work with a cheery smile and a willingness to help with whatever is asked of them to keep the operation going. Cleaning the cabin, reducing turn arounds to get back on schedule etc. If only everyone in IFCE were like Gatwick crew then this airline would be a better place to work.

And by the way CIRRUS is a flight planning programme used for every BA flight showing the routing and fuel requirements not some secret plan by Willie to under mind another part of the airline.

I think tenko's plea is a piece of fiction.

[Beagle9]

Juan, if you are BA cc and are not a union member and are on strike then you are in breach of contract and can be instantly dismissed. Only union members are allowed to strike.(Quote)

Juan is playing with you. He only says he's not BASSA. That'll be Amicus he's a member of then.

[Pornpants1]

I think tenko's plea is a piece of fiction.

I agree, once again ticks all the boxes.........................:rolleyes:

[dick whitt]

During the Q & A session at yesterdays briefing Keith Williams also stated that they had discussed the current tactics with major share holders last Friday and they were fully supportive.

:D

[SnackPack]

I've give so much to this Company for the last 16 years and to be honest I don't think I'm over paid and I really have to despute the fact that I have under achieve. I'm full time and if you really want to know my earnings well it's just over £27,000. Now please look at yourselves and think how would you live on that?

These are hard times and everybody I know realises that but we are not fighting for anything more, just the right to keep what we have. I don't want to give up my flat and my life that I have worked so hard to keep just because there are people out there who are willing to do my job for a mere £11,000 and £2.40 ph. If they found pilots willing to do the same then you'll end up in the same boat.

Hello there, please excuse me as I am an outsider but there are lots of people in a worse situation than you.

I have worked as cabin crew for 8 years. I was made redundent by my previous comany almost 2 years ago. I now work for an airline, however, after having lost my job once, I faced redundancy a few months ago when my airline downsized their operations from 5 aircraft to 3. Several days ago, I was yet again told that I face redundacy again as my airline is going down to just 2 aircraft this winter.

I do understand where you are coming from. I to have a mortagege to pay for. I know many other airline crew who have been made redundent and lost their homes. You should understand that there are many other people such as myself, who would be more than happy to work for £11000 + £2.40 per hour if it meant having a secure position. As far as earning £27k I think I would be quite comfortable on that. It's certainly a bit more than my £13k that I earn at another scheduled airline, despite my experience, and I manage.

As soon as recruitment opens again I will be applying for BA. I don't care how much I earn as long as it is enough to cover my bills, I would be happy with just the bare minimum as long as I have a secure position and not face yet another redundancy threat!

[Beagle9]

For those of you who have read my posts, you will know I am very strongly anti-strike and anti-BASSA, however, work of fiction Tenko's post may or may not have been, I do think that some ordinary and decent cabin crew members, may, if they read this thread, get a bit alarmed at the tone of some of the posts.

They are often quite insulting of CC generally, dismissive of our value to BA and seem to look forward to our imminent downfall.

Now I hate BASSA and the attitude of the more rabid bassamentalists as much as you do, but over my 27 years as CC with BA I've rarely had anything other than very friendly and respectful relations with my Flight Crew colleagues, so some of these posts make uneasy reading for me.

I know it's probably just emotions letting people getting carried away, but can we maybe just ask people do a bit of a review of what they've posted before pressing submit, as there are a lot of decent and intelligent CC on here too.

Thanks. There, I feel better now!

[wiggy]

Beagle

but over my 27 years as CC with BA I've rarely had anything other than very friendly and respectful relations with my Flight Crew colleagues

Well can I add that in my 60+ years with BA I've almost always had friendly and respectful relations with my Cabin crew colleagues, though as in any job you get the 10%.........on both sides of the Flight Deck door..:uhoh:

But as for BASSA :ugh:

[Wirbelsturm]

I'm so upset with all the self important rubbish that has been posted on this site. This is people's livelihoods you are talking about and to be honest none of you care about that, it's all about YOU and your opinion. Please look at the bigger picture. Don't you see that what they have to give up is a lot to ask of anyone, and if the shoe was on the other foot you would be out theer fighting your cause. Let me remind you of the Openskies situation that happened not so long ago. What's to say that the Cirrus rumour is not something you should be worried about?


So you are allowed your opinion but we, as a group, are not allowed ours?

Please look at the bigger picture. Don't you see that what they have to give up is a lot to ask of anyone

What have you given up over in the past? What have BASSA negotiated in the past whilst ALL other groups in BA have been streamlining their cost base in line with the economic and business changes? Do you honestly believe that the company can maintain 1980's style contracts in a business environment where landing fees, navigation fees, fuel, airports costs and taxes have risen astronomically while ticket prices have plummeted? Everyone else in BA cut costs and increased productivity to cover their cost bases, BASSA threw the regionals to the wolves for their savings. Hence Gatwick is running a full schedule during your strike and don't give a stuff about BASSA. BASSA reaps what it sows.

You have a Union that is running rouge within Unite. Tony Woodley can't control it but desperately needs to membership fees of its biggest branch after a botched attempt to get Labour back into power. Unite spent a fortune backing MP's only to lose to a coalition. How that must hurt.

BASSA/Unite demand that BA negotiate. However, at Sandown Park, you all cheered and supported a 'no negotiation' stance with a show of hands in a heat of the moment, hot headed ballot. Now you wonder why BA can't be bothered to talk to BASSA?

BA have given assurances on the future of existing crews. They have been stonewalled by BASSA,also by the Secretary Duncan Holley, you know the one, the one who was vindictively and in a bullying fashion, dismissed for consistently failing to turn up to work! How he has fallen on his feet, straight into a full paid job with the Union. These people don't give a stuff about the ordinary Cabin Crew, they want to go out on a high. They are blocking an agreement that will give you stable working conditions in order to get their cronies back. Utter lunacy.

As to guarantees, there are no guarantees in a private industry. Market forces dictate cash flow which dictates change. All any Union can do and any employee is to watch how the market forces change and move and then decide on the most appropriate course of action which best represents the wishes of their membership or peers. This is constant and ongoing and requires meeting each future challenge based on the merits of that challenge when taken in the context of the current environment. This is something that BASSA has totally failed to do by following an abrasive IA course over nothing. Losing public opinion along the way as people in other industries lose their jobs through mismangement or loss of corporate financing. It was ironic to read the line in the press stating that one BASSA member turned up to the pickets in his BMW M3 draped with Unite flags. Poor him, must be really feeling the pinch.

Finally, just to put the spectre os Openskies to bed once and for all, so please forgive me MODS but it needs to be clarified. All BAPLA wanted to do with OS was to have ALL flight crew on the BA master seniority list. That was it. It was agreed that any pilot wishing to go to OS would go under the OS low cost contract. Thus the whole deal was to be cost neutral to BA whilst protecting the LEGAL scope agreement as written into the MOA. That was the difference. Not the throw away IA of BASSA over imposition.

So, before you complain that everyone is being unfair to the strikers please be aware that BASSA declared war on the company as a whole, they stated that they would rather see BA go under than accept change. On that basis I suggest you take umbridge with your Union before your peers. They have seriously misrepresented you in this.

Edited to add:
BA employs, for comparable airlines, some of the cheapest LH pilots in the world. If you wish a comparison have a look at the wages within Lufthansa, Air France/KLM and Iberia to see what happens when exchange rates kick in. I'll help a little, the top going rate for a LH Lufthansa Captain is around 250,000 Euros. Not a bad little earner is it?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Sometimes, a picture can sum up 196 pages of writing.......

Pimms o'clock on the frontline; cheers comrade....
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/25/article-1280734-09BB0D67000005DC-421_634x430.jpg

Just to confirm, I'll be in for my trip tomorrow.....
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/25/article-1280734-09BB0D57000005DC-113_634x379.jpg

[Satan]

Much glee and laughter this morning over on the BASSA forum, 5 pages of "serves them right!" and "HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!" (in other words, the usual insightful and intelligent debate seen on there) and all following on from this:

OMG! Just had a call from a very reliable source that her advertising agency (it has been outsourced from another agency- thought it wouldn't be traced eh?) has received a request to design an advertising campaign and place adverts initially over a two week period during September looking for Temporary Flight Crew at guess what airline??? Sooooo what goes around eh??:D:D:D

Maybe you want to go back to your source and check again. These are the adverts for new fleet, which your union has brought into existence way ahead of plan by its actions.

Nah, it's "Flight Crew!!!" you respond (hello "My Arse!") How often does the media get the distinction wrong? What language do the general public use for those who are crew on aircraft?

Your glee is, sadly 180-degrees out. Dance away, for now, but these are for New Fleet. Mark my words.

Satan

[ns68]

Edited to add:
BA employs, for comparable airlines, some of the cheapest LH pilots in the world. If you wish a comparison have a look at the wages within Lufthansa, Air France/KLM and Iberia to see what happens when exchange rates kick in. I'll help a little, the top going rate for a LH Lufthansa Captain is around 250,000 Euros. Not a bad little earner is it?

Same for CC..ever wondered why they never compare our salaries to that of KLM/AIR FRANCE,ALITALIA,LUFTHANSA and IBeria? That is because they earn as much as us.
Saying that,easyjet CC clear as much as we do in a month- between £1600-£2000..

I do not understand why so many people are happy to give what we have up.
To keep the flag flying? Keeping the flag flying it is not only about the savings expected from IFS.There is a lot more to it. It is about management making the right commercial choices and moves..Let's not go back to the T5 fiasco that lost us so much money and so many passengers..Openskies which was set up and invested in only to be forgotten.. and the list continues..
I could blame the economic downturn for the loss of revenue and number of passenger but the product we are now offering is another reason behind that.
As a Eurofleet cc..our Club product is now next to nothing and when the management said it wouldn't really matter because people would still fly with us and they do not need much on a short flight..Well,they were very wrong!
Club Europe is not worth it anymore and people have slowly realized it.

[demomonkey]

Originally posted by Tenko: These are hard times and everybody I know realises that but we are not fighting for anything more, just the right to keep what we have. I don't want to give up my flat and my life that I have worked so hard to keep just because there are people out there who are willing to do my job for a mere £11,000 and £2.40 ph. If they found pilots willing to do the same then you'll end up in the same boat.Tenko;
This dispute IS NOT ABOUT £11k and £2.40ph.
It has NEVER been about £11k and £2.40ph.
No formal offer involving £11k and £2.40ph has ever been tabled.
The current offer is not based around £11k and £2.40ph.
The current offer would allow you to keep your earnings at the approximate current levels.
WW has publicly said that he knows people have designed their lifestyles around their income and he doesn't expect them to change it now.If you accepted BA's offer your flat and lifestyle would be safe! Please, please, please read the offers that are being sent to you via email before it is too late. BASSA is telling you half-truths. Please do your own research. Talk to the PCCC just to see their side of it, they're all serving CC and have just as much to lose as you. If you are genuinely at rock bottom its because that stupid man Holley and his cronies have mis-guided the BASSA community so badly. Please step into the sunshine!

These are my personal opinions and not those of any other individual or organisation

[4468]

With expansion predicted for the end of the year, mostly on 747s coming back from storage, I imagine this is probably an accurate story. As has been said however, it won't be temporary pilots they are looking for!

The Big Bad New Fleet is here, and it's all thanks to BASSA!

The so called 'strike' is looking like more of an irrelevance as every day passes! Even the news channels know there's no story here. Move along now. Move along!
Tenko:
I have my mortgage based on my present earnings,
Very concerned for you (genuinely!) but how does losing half your months wages affect your ability to pay your mortgage?

Can you manage to lose half your pay next month too? and the month after, and the month after that?

Can't you see the writing on the wall? BASSA are costing you more money than BA ever will!!

It is absolutely tragic for you, but you have voted (presumably?) to be led right up the garden path!

[fly12345]

Tenko,


Unite has repeatedly moved the goalposts and is not interested in settling the dispute. The union knows our latest offer addresses all the concerns it has raised during 15 months of negotiations and that we have compromised many times in an effort to get a resolution.

Tony Woodley himself has said that our final offer “on many points represents an improvement”.

During these talks, we have:

* offered the partial reversal of crew complements, despite a High Court ruling in our favour
* agreed to future promotions and transfers on current contracts for current crew
* given a written assurance about the allocation of routes and aircraft between fleets
* given assurances to protect the pay, terms and conditions for our current crew
* changed our position on pay to guarantee RPI rises for two years, on top of increments
* agreed to the return of staff travel to crew who went on strike, subject to certain conditions

[Wirbelsturm]

This dispute IS NOT ABOUT £11k and £2.40ph.

Anyway I think you would find that £2.40ph would be below the minimum wage. Careful how you dress it!!!

[demomonkey]

Entry 1: "Happy Hour at the Last Chance Saloon"
Entry 2: "Like alcohol Industrial Action might feel good at the time but it leaves you with a nasty hangover"
Entry 3: "Having not been paid for weeks striking CC were reduced to drinking their own pee"

Thank you, I'm here all week!

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/05/25/article-1280734-09BB0D67000005DC-421_634x430.jpg

[Wirbelsturm]

'Volunteer Flight Crew try out their new company issued Ray Bans and beer, Iphones to be issued on completion of training!'

:eek:

[R2D2-LHR]

"wow ladies, surprised they hadn't run out of Pimms due to the thousands being here"

[Chigley]

I have been hooked on this forum since leaving BASSA before the first round of strikes, and today I thought I would post for the first time with an update of my week so far for the benefit of MissM and Juan Odeboyse who seem be living in a parallel universe – far removed from reality.

Tues reported for airport standby duty, left after six hours – not required. VCC’s were also stood down without being used. Spoke with 1 x CSD and 5 x Main Crew who were all on strike in March, but have now returned to work.

Last night reported for a split duty, I had a full crew complement - no VCC’s, flight fully booked. As was return sector this morning, with 5 commuters onboard all reporting for duty today. My partner reported for l/h service last night and 12 out of 14 crew turned up for work.

I have just driven past the picket by T4/Cargo and there wasn’t one BASSA flag waver in sight. The news footage this week would also indicate a severe lack of support at BFC this time, but seemingly thousands are turning up?

Whilst I fully respect anyone’s decision to take part in legal industrial action, having to ‘big up’ the situation to make the strike look more effective is just pathetic. Willie is winning this battle and I’m sure he hasn’t shown all his cards yet! :)

[fly12345]

Talking about new fleet and lower T & C.

How about the rumor reported on different forums that an offer of new fleet contract or out for the strikers is in the pipeline?

Anyone else heard this rumor? What if?

[Wirbelsturm]

Now please look at yourselves and think how would you live on that?

How about use the New Governments watch phrase:

Live within your means not within your available credit?

(Before you ask I have no debt aside from my mortgage which I can adequately service. Welcome to the post finacial crash world!)

[Express1]

Whether or not I will support the strike, I find insulting the comments from most of forum posters who will be happy if staff travel wasn't returned.

ns68, many of us also find it insulting when comments are posted which clearly have no regard for the thousands of customers who pay our salaries, which insult the hard work of colleagues in other departments who are doing their best to keep the company that we love running and seek to demonise others. Even worse are the many posters that those on strike happily display, which are extremely insulting about BA and personal about WW. No matter what your views are on him as a person, there are certain things that are simply unacceptable.

I would dearly love for those who have been on strike to come into the terminals or volunteer for the call centre to speak directly to those affected. Thankfully, our customers have been extremely understanding and supportive. I have had the opportunity and the pleasure to speak to many of our customers and by far they have all been fantastic. I have dealt with customers who, given the situation, I would have completely understood if they were angry or upset. Yet they have been patient and even having a laugh with us, both when I've been in the call centre or in the terminal at my regular job.

Thankfully most of our cabin crew appear to recognise that BASSA and Unite do not run BA and pay their salaries and have come into work to keep us flying and for that they have my greatest respect. Some may have done it reluctantly, but that doesn't matter, they have still worked and our customers are happier for it.

[Wirbelsturm]

ns68,

Take a good look at the terms and conditions of the airlines you trumpet so much. Much as someone posted that BA pilots are paid far more then Virgin, the reality of per hour cost is somewhat different to the headline grabbing figures when contracted hours are taken into account.

Have a look at the working practices of AF/LKM, LH and, now, Alitalia and you will find a workforce that works far longer hours and doesn't have the ability to hold the company to ransom over disruption etc.

BASSA want power nothing else and they are more than willing to sacrifice you, me and the rest of BA to cling to it.

[HiFlyer14]

Tenko.

Don't you see that what they have to give up is a lot to ask of anyone,

They asked us to work a bit harder.

[Runway vacated]

Even the notion that the cc are being asked to work harder for the same money is open to interpretation...

All BA aircraft are crewed for a 100% passenger load, yet our AVERAGE load factor is in the region of 76%. It could therefore be argued that we are already carrying about 1/4 too many crew on each flight.

Now I realise that this is statistical absurdity, but I would ask crew to remember that the "extra" they are being required to give is proportionately A LOT LESS than any other department within the company. For every "hard working" full flight (the ones you always seem to remember), just recall those really easy, half load, night flights when you managed to get to the bunk 90 minutes after take off. This now has to be done with the same number of service crew, just no "spare" in the form of a CSD.

No pay cut. No compulsory redundancies. Guaranteed future pay rises.

No other department has had it so cushy. Not one. And no other department can be manned by anyone with 3 weeks training.

So perhaps instead of moaning about the injustices of life, it might behove you to be thankful that you are being asked to give so little when you are so easy to replace.

[The Blu Riband]

Tenko

Use your brain.

Stop listening to the lies coming from Bassa.

Go to work.

Keep your job.

The future of your crew is at stake and if they manange to break us then it is only a matter of time before they visit you.

They have already visited everyone else.

Willie doesn't need to try and break you. Duncan is doing quite well on his own.

[screwdriver]

Runway Vacated.

Well put!

Also.

Quote:
The future of your crew is at stake and if they manange to break us then it is only a matter of time before they visit you.

I've never done a media course. However, I did learn that any self penned document that I was about to publish should be proof read beforehand. Perhaps his friends in the press should help him.:=

Anyway WW seems to be mananging pretty well at the moment

[Caribbean Boy]

tenko (http://www.pprune.org/members/329121-tenko) wrote:
Now saying all that, Look deep inside you, before you reply, I'm not interested in getting into a debate, My future is at stake here and I haven't even committed a crime.Isn't a major part of the problem that people are not getting into a debate? If more cabin crew would read BF's emails and as well as BASSA's emails, then surely some of BASSA's pronouncements would be challenged.

We just happen to be the largest group and well they will never stop there, we are just a way forward. A win for Mr Walsh is a way to prove that no one is safe.Have you read the Way Forward Agreement which Willie Walsh has tabled? I suspect not. This document sets out the cost-cutting which BA needs to grow the business without reducing your basic pay - and you'll get a guaranteed monthly travel payment which replaces much of your taxable allowances.

Why don't you read it and then come back and tell us what you don't like.

[demomonkey]

Tenko is a troll and we've all fall for it. The contents of that post are in the same vein as the 42yo Mother who missed the birth of her own child.....

I think we know who the real author is.

[R2D2-LHR]

Any news or rumours from Bedfont today?

[sted_d_edd]

"We will be holding another ballot on staff travel and the disciplinaries," said Simpson. Woodley added that Unite was duty bound to hold another poll because a window of protection for striking crew, mandated by trade union legislation, expires on 10 June and exposes any staff who walk out to the threat of dismissal if they are not protected by a ballot.

"We have got no choice. We have got to give our people legal protection. We cannot take the chance that this gaffer will be sacking people," said Woodley. Unite, buoyed by the 81% and 92% majorities for recent cabin crew strike ballots, believes a new poll will meet with similar success. It is threatening a further ballot because it regards the withdrawal of staff travel and the disciplinary cases as a fundamental breakdown in industrial relations.

Unite and BA talks to resume on Friday | Business | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/may/26/unite-union-ba-strike-talks)

So will they be protected?

[Autobrake Low]

I just have to mention that it somewhat sticks in the throat when you hear about all the bullying and harrasment claims against BA -the cabin crew who are all off sick under investigation - they just cannot handle the stress. Yet rarely have I seen such a campaign of hatred against one man such as the one being waged against Willie Walsh.
Meetings illegally disrupted by shouting abusive protesters - the men sitting across the table from him not only twittering and showing clear lack of regard, courteousness and professionalism, but the minute they are out of his presence then proceed to tell all who will listen that he is a bully - self centred etc etc.
Meanwhile he concentrates on facts and distances himself from personal attacks and continues to do what he is paid to do.
He does not call in sick - he does not cry to his board about unfair treatment and need a big hug.
It very much reminds me of men dealing with children - and those children will learn soon that stomping their feet on the ground and demanding another lollipop will only lead to a smack and standing in the corner. You know what I mean ........

[Crash_and_Burn]

Serious question... Is the strike still actually on??:confused:

I spent 2 hours this morning listening to the BBC breakfast and then news in my car on the commute and not one mention was made of the strike, not even during the traffic and travel sections. I had to logon to PPRunNe to find out if it was still on.

The impact is so minimal and going un-noticed, is it really worth giving up your salary for?

Still no sign of a picket down here at LGW, did I blink and miss it?

I also have to say the PR coup of having PIMMS and beer available on the picket line, next to the 50k BMW. The Strikers are really going for the public sympathy vote. Maybe if BASSA/Unite approached this with even an iota of business like common sense and with the tiniest view on PR this thing might not be such a farce.:ugh:

Anyway can't stop, just off to T.W.itt.E.R some confidential discussions, or as it is now called, to Derek. I think I'll Derek the location of tomorrows meeting, see what nutters we can get to crash the party this time!:E (obviously a joke!)


CB

Oops! Fat Fingers

[sted_d_edd]

Shortly before holding the talks, Simpson said Unite was preparing to ballot on the withdrawal of staff travel perks from an estimated 4,000 flight attendants who joined a wave of strikes in March, and on disciplinary action taken against 60 crew members for alleged misdemeanours during that dispute.

"We will be holding another ballot on staff travel and the disciplinaries," said Simpson. Woodley added that Unite was duty bound to hold another poll because a window of protection for striking crew, mandated by trade union legislation, expires on 10 June and exposes any staff who walk out to the threat of dismissal if they are not protected by a ballot.

"We have got no choice. We have got to give our people legal protection. We cannot take the chance that this gaffer will be sacking people," said Woodley. Unite, buoyed by the 81% and 92% majorities for recent cabin crew strike ballots, believes a new poll will meet with similar success. It is threatening a further ballot because it regards the withdrawal of staff travel and the disciplinary cases as a fundamental breakdown in industrial relations.

Source the Guardian

[Dixie Dean]

Just finished a short haul standby shift in the CRC.

I was not used, as were a number of other standby VCC.

A large number of VCC were being off loaded from long haul flights as all the crew who were rostered had turned up.

I have a long haul over the weekend, I will bet that I get off loaded from that.

Dixie

[Meal Chucker]

Originally Posted by Juan Odeboyse
standing firm in the midst of serious bullying by BA mangement


Hi Juan

Just wondered if you could back up your statement with some facts.

[BentleyH]

After my earlier concerns, I'm pleased to see the schedule is now growing.

JFK - All flights operating!
SFO - Both flights operating
MIA - Both operating
LAX - Two out of three operating
ORD - Both operating

Is there really a strike still going on??
No wonder Willie's in no rush to get back round the table with Unite again, especially when he know's it's a complete waste of time bearing in mind their insistence on ST and disciplinaries and the fact BASSA is still wagging the Unite dog!
I've got a good trip as VCC rostered next week, although I suspect I won't be needed as all the normal crew will probably turn up!

[Runway vacated]

Meal chucker

To find the meaning of the verb "bullying" in the sense Juan means, you will have to consult the BASSA dictionary:

BULLYING (vb, only ever used by the victim (qv)) doing something I don't like or disagree with. This may, or may not, be preceded by WARNINGS (qv)

This is the same dictionary where the definition of "CRM" is:

"Being nice(qv) to me"

And "BAD CRM" is

"Exercising your authority over me"

All tic of course!:ok:

[Suggs]

I'm VCC, haven't been called, doesn't look like I'm needed!

Just assumed the strike had been called off!

More evidence needed?

[flyingsoldier1993]

Hi there all,
I am currently on 24 hour available and sitting at home without being used.
I rang scheduling to ask if they have forgotten about me, but was assured that all is well and they have plenty more people turning up for work then they expected.......
It speaks for itself.
I am happy, looking forward to a bank holiday at home with friends.
:ok:

[midman]

I think we're starting to see the endgame play out.

The quote from the crew ops guy today was that they had so many reporting cabin crew they didn't know what to do with them.


Good to see so much evidence of the PCCC on the noticeboards too!

[The Blu Riband]

I'm in India. We have 4 icc's and 4 regular crew on a - full - 777.

All flts are operating min crew.

BA are being very cautious by not allocating more crew than necessary, and by standing down spare crew for use later if needed.

We had a choice of 6 regular crew and 2 vols at briefing (plus the 4 icc crew).
Don't know what the spare 4 crew ended up doing.

I spoke to 2 general managers and they are very confident that the strike is effectively over; more and more crew are reporting. ( above the company's most optimistic targets).

By the end of the strike the remaining strikers will no longer be req'd.

Very funny that the militants are mocking the advert for temps, not actually realising it is temp cabin crew that are being recruited. :ugh:
TO REPLACE THEM!!!!!!!

[swalesboy]

If the rumours about BA advertising for Cabin crew is correct, then I would be slightly concerned that the end game is near.

I am pretty sure (feel free to correct me) that BA cannot replace dismissed striking staff for three month. So three months would be about September. When are the vacancies for? September. Alarm bells anyone?

[bagrafter]

Doing a bit of light reading earlier, like to know the world I am operating in.;)

Emirates recently released their £100m (9% margin) profit making accounts, despite all the economic woe. It was intereting to note was their employee costs were 15.9% of all costs for 2009/10. BA for the same period was 24.3%

This ladies and gentleman is what we are up against, the new world competition have much lower cost bases, newer aircraft/products and the desire to expand rapidly.

It is not difficult to see one of the reasons they made a profit and we didn't come close.

It sounds like the revised timetable is picking up speed and by the end of the strike 90% ops is achieveable. Keep up the good work everybody.

[wiggy]

This link was from "sted d edd" post earlier...

"... Woodley added that Unite was duty bound to hold another poll because a window of protection for striking crew, mandated by trade union legislation, expires on 10 June and exposes any staff who walk out to the threat of dismissal if they are not protected by a ballot.

[Fuzzy112]

It was intereting to note was their employee costs were 15.9% of all costs for 2009/10. BA for the same period was 24.3%

In that case why not have a 8.4% pay cut across the board at BA. That'll fix it then.

[Yeovil]

I too have found the atmosphere at work to be delightful whilst the bassa crew stay at Bedfont.

It's really been a pleasure , crew doing their job properly, having a laugh down route and going home happy. I never thought I'd feel this way , but I'd be thrilled if we could add a few more dismissals to the list.

There was a good summary earlier which included

" Work a bit harder....?
Even the notion that the cc are being asked to work harder for the same money is open to interpretation...
All BA aircraft are crewed for a 100% passenger load, yet our AVERAGE load factor is in the region of 76%. It could therefore be argued that we are already carrying about 1/4 too many crew on each flight.
Now I realise that this is statistical absurdity, but I would ask crew to remember that the "extra" they are being required to give is proportionately A LOT LESS than any other department within the company. For every "hard working" full flight (the ones you always seem to remember), just recall those really easy, half load, night flights when you managed to get to the bunk 90 minutes after take off. This now has to be done with the same number of service crew, just no "spare" in the form of a CSD.

No pay cut. No compulsory redundancies. Guaranteed future pay rises.

No other department has had it so cushy. Not one. And no other department can be manned by anyone with 3 weeks training.

So perhaps instead of moaning about the injustices of life, it might behove you to be thankful that you are being asked to give so little when you are so easy to replace."




So , to sum up. I'm really excited at the prospect of a full schedule , however I'd be saddened if all the BASAA crowd return! WE JUST DONT NEED THEM!

[swalesboy]

Wiggy

I read that earlier, but I wonder if Willy Walsh would do the dirty deed if a new ballot was announced.

This has got to come to an end soon. I cant see him putting up with another 3 months of disruption, and there is no way he is going to cave in.

[DeThirdDefect]

It was intereting to note was their employee costs were 15.9% of all costs for 2009/10. BA for the same period was 24.3%
In that case why not have a 8.4% pay cut across the board at BA. That'll fix it then.
An 8.4% pay cut across the board would mean employee costs would be reduced to 22.7% of all costs.
To reduce it to 15.9% would mean everyone taking a pay cut of 41%.
How does that grab you?

[Eddy]

I'm trying to remember what Mr. Walsh said about staff travel.

For those who have already lost it but have decided to come to work this time around, will they still enjoy its return only without seniority?

I thought Mr. Walsh said that "if a strike goes ahead" or "if the strike goes ahead". Not sure it said anything about specific people.

So is someone who has seen the light since March and decided to come to work going to suffer the complete loss of their staff travel because of the continued action even though they've decided not to take part in it?

[Maddie Baddie]

I came home to LHR this afternoon. Passenger loads on both flights were similiar and good. Our passengers were really friendly and grateful that they were getting to their destinations. T5 was more or less like any other normal afternoon.

It was a really good trip with some fantastic crew. We had a really good time together downroute and it was dreary to say good bye to everyone back at base. I do have to say that our onboard service during the strike is inferior and our customers are not getting what they have paid for and earn. Our brand is also taking a huge blow, which is worrying, but what I have noticed during this strike, including March, is that you are working with like-minded people wanting the very best for BA. We do have to work harder and it can be a bit of a mess before everything settles but it's amazing that everyone is pulling their weight to make it work. The atmosphere at work, without the presence of the strikers, is relaxed without any tension and disturbance. It already begins at the bus from the car park.

I'm going to enjoy my days off now all alone as my other half is away on a trip. Quality time! By the way, he's yet to be used as volunteer cabin crew regardless him being on one of the first training courses for pilots. See you all at work next week!

WW Purser

[Middy]

Share price up 6.42% today. Obviously the City has confidence in Willie's plan !!!:ok:

[Litebulbs]

TRADE UNION AND LABOUR RELATIONS (CONSOLIDATION) ACT 1992 s.146
Employment Relations Act 1999 sch.2
Employment Relations Act 2004 s.31
latest news


NOTES

# TULRCA 1992 s.146 is entitled "Detriment on grounds related to union membership or activities" (until 1st October 2004 entitled "Action short of dismissal on grounds related to union membership or activities")
# Employment Relations Act 1999 sch.2 is entitled "Union membership: detriment"
# Employment Relations Act 2004 Part 3 (ss.29 - 43) is entitled "Rights of Trade Union Members, Workers and Employees".
go to updated reference in this note.
BASIC POSITION

As well as the right not to be dismissed on grounds relating to union membership or activities (TULRCA 1992, ss.152 and 153 and see Trade union matters/unfair dismissal ) a worker has a separate right "not to be subjected to any detriment as an individual by any act, or any deliberate failure to act, by his employer if the act or failure takes place" in certain union related situations - ie a right not to be victimised or discriminated against (TULRCA 1992 s.146 as amended by Employment Relations Act 1999 sch.2 and by Employment Relations Act 2004 ss.30 and 31).

Does this have any relevance?

[Eddy]

That's what's really interesting, Litebulbs.

BASSA and Unite seem to continually claim that it's unlawful for BA to remove staff travel from strikers, yet they're holding off coming to an agreement with the company until the company reinstates said benefit.

Forgive me, but if they're so confident of getting the perk back through the courts, why delay the end of the industrial action?

[giza]

I was at the forum too, to think we may have been sitting next to each other.

Did you ask a question while there, if that was the case your wr sitting a long way from me.:rolleyes:

[Litebulbs]

That is what is confusing me too. I think Mr Walsh has played a trump here. He will never reinstate staff travel voluntarily, but by a court order? But as a negotiating point, it is now being seen as a win, just to get staff travel back, regardless of the other issues. It is whether BASSA are wise to this.

[giza]

Tenko, I dont understand why you think you will be on £11,000 and £2.40 per flying hour, the deal for current staff is that you keep your terms and conditions.

I am convinced that you are a good person, as are so many of the cabin crew, but you are having the wool pulled over your eye by bassa, come to work, be proud and remain a part of the good bits of ba, you will not lose out at all. his is the quickest way to end this strike, if enough crew and VCC and wet lease are available to operate 100% service, its over.

Im Backing BA:cool:

[Chesh01]

Did anyone drive past a picket line or have any news from strike HQ?

[giza]

SnackJack posts "As soon as recruitment opens again I will be applying for BA. I don't care how much I earn as long as it is enough to cover my bills, I would be happy with just the bare minimum as long as I have a secure position and not face yet another redundancy threat!"

I think there will be many people like snack jack, security in a job is a huge premium to those that have workwd in the real world, outside of the big bag of cotton wool we call ba.

Another group of youngsters will be out there, not looking for a career, but happy to be paid for a two year gap year, travelling the world with BA paying (and good luck to them, I wish I had thought of it.

Im backing BA:E

[Tiramisu]

Did anyone drive past a picket line or have any news from strike HQ?

Chesh01,
The picket at the Perimeter roundabout hasn't been there for the last two days.
Perhaps they are suffering from sunburn or sunstroke, the heat is on!;)
But I believe there was one near or at Waterside today.

I am BA cabin crew who's proud to cross the picket line.

[Chesh01]

Tenko, I dont understand why you think you will be on £11,000 and £2.40 per flying hour, the deal for current staff is that you keep your terms and conditions.

I am convinced that you are a good person, as are so many of the cabin crew, but you are having the wool pulled over your eye by bassa, come to work, be proud and remain a part of the good bits of ba, you will not lose out at all. his is the quickest way to end this strike, if enough crew and VCC and wet lease are available to operate 100% service, its over.

Im Backing BAhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/cool.gif ( from Giza )


As long as you can stay clear of the obituaries board. That will do for me. Dont worry be happY!

[From Tunbridge Wells]

YouTube - British Airways cabin crew on strike 2010 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zHrp0-9yHE)

Just seen this - I'd say the message is " actually, you are pretty much alone"
Pathetic attempt to make it look as though the strike is having any effect

(good footage of when the ash cloud grounded aircraft at LHR though:ok:)

[essessdeedee]

Did anyone drive past a picket line or have any news from strike HQ?

I drove past the one outside waterside and didn't recognise one of them as cabin crew!

[License to Fly]

to recap : WW has said that the BA will pay market rate + 10%. BA operates now in a very competitive world environment.

So, CC take 3 weeks to be trained and what WW wants are young people who will stay with the airline for 3/4 years and then leave, keeping the salary costs low. The good crew can be promoted and earn better money but they would be the exception.

The problem with BA (and BA has caused the problem) is that it has paid too well for too long and (without getting personal to anyone), earning £27K for cabin crew work is massively overpaid for the job in the current age. Its a £18-£22k job, full stop. This is where BA has to get to

If true, the September recruitment campaign for temporary crew ties in with not being able to recruit for c.90 days after making a position redundant - as people have alluded to already, that process will start in June IMHO. BA will be recruiting for more pilots late this year/early next year, these are full time positions and (from rumours) it may be quite substantial as many pilots have left/retired recently.

If you are cabin crew for BA and have not yet had to report, I would think about your decision very carefully - your income/job or BASSA ? It should not be a difficult decision ... if it is, you are probably not right for the brand NEW BA launching later this year!

Backing BA

[PC767]

I was involved in a small debate this am with other posters who explained that Alitalia was a model of industrial workers and that other European cabin crew work longer hours than BA crew.

All the posts have gone.

I left with a question. Why do BA pilots on long haul not fly short haul to regulate their hours within the 900hr rule. A genuine question. How come it isn't necessary but it is deemed to be a future requirement for cabin crew.

I've checked the moderators deletion comments (oh yes, they exist, and are usually hilarious.) It is fundamentally NOT censorship, it is all to do with relevance; your post, and the answers to it were irrelevant to the main thrust of this thread. However, this post can stand till you get your answer, and since I'm passing through having a look before bed, let me answer it via an edit.

Mixed-fleet flying is not as simple for pilots as it is for cabin crew. Pilots can only be current on one type at a time, unless there is another type covered by the same licensing requirements. Such as 757/767, who can indeed do a mix of short- and longhaul.

Even if there was a mix of 320-series/330/340 it would not be as simple, since whilst it is possible to mix long and short on those types, there are several major hurdles thrown up by the regulatory authorities when it comes to mixing 2- and 4-engined aircraft.

What is impossible is for a pilot to hold and remain current on, for example 747-400 flying longhaul, mixing that with A-320 or 757/737 for shorthaul. Only a few management pilots have ever held similar ratings, and the only real example I can remember flew Concorde and 757, but not 767, at the same time.

Hope this clarifies the situation somewhat. The issues are an exponential factor greater for pilots flying many types than they are for cabin crew. And unlike certain airlines (CX best example) BA do not "intelligently misuse" longhaul-configured aircraft on shorthaul routes.

I'll go back into my cage now. Apologies, and thanks, to the forum moderators for indulging me.

Sick Squid
Rumours and News Moderator
(The original Cabin Crew forum moderator before handing it over to the best team of mods on the site, who are NOT pilots. That happened because it was realised this area needs non-pilot moderators in charge.

[giza]

Just so every one is clear this is the situation on staff travel
Yes the reduced seniority offer is still on the table, but not just for returning to work, it will only be re instated if the strikes are called off, or no more strikes called, and staff sign up to the new deal, in full as offered, any other scenario, no staff travel. It will be returned with a personal start date the same date as the new deal is signed up.

Now, interesting point, full prestrike staff travel entitlement will be offered on leaving or retirement as per the ST09 agreement. :confused:

I dont know why this is difficult, it was sent to every crew member.
I am backing BA:hmm:

[Fargoo]

Quote:
Did anyone drive past a picket line or have any news from strike HQ?
Chesh01,
The picket at the Perimeter roundabout hasn't been there for the last two days.
Perhaps they are suffering from sunburn or sunstroke, the heat is on!
But I believe there was one near or at Waterside today.

I am BA cabin crew who's proud to cross the picket line.

It was manned today for a couple of hours, lots of excited flag waving and whistle blowing going on.

It's hard to believe with all the support and BFC 5 minutes walk away they can't even be bothered to man it for the whole day.

Litebulbs - you bring up a very valid point which a lot of posters on the side of the strikers have been trying to make on this site for some time. Is it legal to punish someone who is on strike by removing their staff travel priveledges? I'd say not but I guess a guinea pig would need to step up and take it through the courts to find out.

As much as I'm against the strike happening I feel this was a mistake which had it not have happened the strikes may not have gone ahead this time. BA News this week reports 2500 CC member have lost staff travel, I wonder how many actually came in just to keep it. Was it really worth playing that card???

[ranger07]

There seems to be a great working relationship WITHOUT the militants, a friendly atmosphere without all the political hype.

All departments seem to be united in anger at the pointless strike, the fact that we have no such guarantees with our terms and conditions and are fed with taking the hit. We now have our jobs and pensions further jeopardized by their mindless actions.

'They' have just been mocked on 'Have I got news for you' (check out bbc iplayer if you missed it)

Seems they still just don't get it. I think they may do when, sadly for them, it's just gonna be tooooooooo late.

[License to Fly]

perhaps BA news could run a competition for the volunteers that have gone way above the call of duty.

And the prize : maybe a pair of season tickets to bedfont Football club?

[Litebulbs]

Thanks for at least joining a conversation with me on this. There was some talk earlier in the thread about punishing strikers, along with comments about illegal action.

Now I don't want to talk about the rights or wrongs of the strike, but I do want to talk about whether BA can carry out some sort of punitive action against a group of workers involved in protected industrial action. If BA had removed all staff travel, then there would be less of an argument, because it is BA's to give or remove. But that should be for all, not directed at a specific group.

[giza]

I am off the bed as I am an early shift tomorrow on crew support, and agian on Monday (bank holiday:\). If you see the guys and gals in the yellow tabards spend a few seconds to say hello, it brightens our day, it can get boring gaurding a lift all day. Actually we spend more time helping passenger while we are there and that is enjoyable, but a smile and a chat would be appreciated, last time we were pretty well ignored by crew, only spoke to two crew, both VCC.

this is not a question to be agravating, but I never see any cabin crew volunteers in crew support, working on your days off, have you been told not too.

Backing BA:O

[giza]

Before I go, I have to ask lightbulbs, who do you mean by "all" ?

[yellowdog]

this is not a question to be agravating, but I never see any cabin crew volunteers in crew support, working on your days off, have you been told not too.


many of us have volunteered to change our rosters...flex our days off...and basically do what ever they want of us!

[Fargoo]

Now I don't want to talk about the rights or wrongs of the strike, but I do want to talk about whether BA can carry out some sort of punitive action against a group of workers involved in protected industrial action. If BA had removed all staff travel, then there would be less of an argument, because it is BA's to give or remove. But that should be for all, not directed at a specific group.

I'm with you on this one, I'm beginning to think it may have been a counter productive move to to take away staff travel.
Could they for example take away free parking at the airport for striking workers? I'd say not and it is a similar perk/concession.

[Litebulbs]

Every employee

[giza]

On March 9, Aer Lingus said it would impose compulsory redundancies for almost a quarter of its 1,000 cabin crew and cut salaries for the rest as a response to the lack of cooperation by IMPACT.

But, as required by law, it started a 30-day consultation period with employees before sacking them.

Aer Lingus cabin crew vote again on cuts | Reuters (http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKTRE62I46V20100319)

[Bucking Bronco]

PC767
Why do BA pilots on long haul not fly short haul to regulate their hours within the 900hr rule. A genuine question. How come it isn't necessary but it is deemed to be a future requirement for cabin crew.

It's all to do with licencing on the different aircraft types, rules and practicality dictate that CC may be licenced on more aircraft types than FC.

IIRC the Airbus guys are licenced on the A318/A319/A320/A321 but they all do similar short haul routes; except of course, the A318 LCY where they're keeping the numbers low to keep the pilots current. If we got the A330 or A350 this would allow mixed fleet flying for the Airbus pilots.

The B757/767 do a mix of LH and SH but this is a dying fleet.

Everyone else just flies the one type.

The new 787 that's on order is being evaluated with a view to mixed fleet flying with the 777 but both willl be doing LH. So won't necessary allow a mix.

Mixed fleet flying on the 757/767 during it's heyday meant that it was a very popular fleet.

WRT 900 hrs - When I first joined the company in the late 90s I flew 580hrs in the first year and 630 in the 2nd year - the last 3 years I've been running at 880 hrs per year. This has been through numerous rewrite of bidline rules and increased efficiencies with the rostering system/layovers etc - things that we've agreed to over the past 10 years or so.

With the increased CAP (annual duty hours target) that we agreed with BA last year, this will mean that many 747 and 777 will be working an extra 3 days per year and be bumping right up to the 900 hr limit.

FWIW as part of last years negotiations we've lost a pilot on most of our 4 crew flights meaning that our bunk time is halved - again something the pilots gave to the company to help it through these troubled times.

The paycut agreed to last year has cost me personally around 8.5%, not the headline 2.6% that BASSA band about.

I could go on and bore you with all the other bits of our agreement but the bottom line is that we've had our Ts and Cs shaved off and sanded down through negotiation with pilots recognising the need for change for the long term health of BA and thus continued job security.

[giza]

Now c`mon lightbulbs, stop trying to wind us all up :ok:

[Litebulbs]

I'm with you on this one, I'm beginning to think it may have been a counter productive move to to take away staff travel.
Could they for example take away free parking at the airport for striking workers? I'd say not and it is a similar perk/concession.

I believe we generally agree on this point. The real problem is that making an absolute stand on ST can only be damaging if it is the only point that stops the dispute from being resolved. It is a punishment, not a negotiating point.

[Tiramisu]

Posted by Fargoo
Is it legal to punish someone who is on strike by removing their staff travel priveledges? I'd say not but I guess a guinea pig would need to step up and take it through the courts to find out.

As much as I'm against the strike happening I feel this was a mistake which had it not have happened the strikes may not have gone ahead this time. BA News this week reports 2500 CC member have lost staff travel, I wonder how many actually came in just to keep it. Was it really worth playing that card???

Fargoo,
I'm not sure whether it was a card worth playing either, however it was a very clever card. It was the only way to get some crew to come to work, especially in the case of the commuters. I would be very interested in the exact figures of commuters who've lost their staff travel.
The legality question is an interesting one. When I tried to book a Staff Travel ticket today, this is what it states on the homepage:

"As a serving or former employee of British Airways Plc (BA) you are eligible to use non-contractual staff travel benefits subject to the policy as outlined in the Staff Travel Guide 2009 (STG09)."

It is a non contractual benefit.
My understanding is, if it is a non-contractual benefit, then it is neither a punishment nor illegal to remove this perk.

Sadly, this strike has shown the true colours of some of our striking colleagues. Let's hope it comes to an end soon and we can all get on and do what we do best throughout BA.

I'm BA cabin crew who's proud to cross the picket line.

[Litebulbs]

Now c`mon lightbulbs, stop trying to wind us all up :ok:

I am not trying to wind anyone up. BA has and probably will embargo ST to all. But and this is unqualified, BA has never removed ST from a specific group, just because the management team has decided to, as a punishment. I may be wrong, so I will apologise unconditionally if I have made a mistake.

[Litebulbs]

It is a non contractual benefit.
My understanding is, if it is a non-contractual benefit, then it is neither a punishment nor illegal to remove this perk.

Remove to all, or for breaching a regulation of policy or as a punishment for a disciplinary issue.

[giza]

Light bulbs what justification is there for removing ST from all staff, and by that I assume you mean all non striking cc, pilots, engineers, a scales, GSS and managers. I think that covers everyone.

[Doors To Manuel]

BA has never removed ST from a specific group

Sorry to contradict you, Litebulb, but yes it has. Prior to 2009 all qualifying retirees left with condition of ST for the rest of their life. With the new rules from April 2009 this was taken away i.e. it was reduced to a period equivalent to length of service. In fact retirees were effectively given a new joining date! Sound familiar?

[Litebulbs]

Sorry to contradict you, Litebulb, but yes it has. Prior to 2009 all qualifying retirees left with condition of ST for the rest of their life. With the new rules from April 2009 this was taken away i.e. it was reduced to a period equivalent to length of service. In fact retirees were effectively given a new joining date! Sound familiar?

I am a deferred pensioner, so I have felt the pain:mad: But, it happened to a whole group, not a selected few.

[beesflyer]

There will be a very suprising % figure for flights operating tomorrow, can't state what.

However, so far on day 9 of strikes its BA 9 BASSA 0, tomorrow the goal ratio will go up another notch and we haven't used many subs yet. BASSA as a semi pro club should never have take on a premier team.

[Snas]

Unite are looking to ramp up the public exposure a bit: - BrUtish Airways' anti-bully bus heads to Speakers' Corner to denounce cabin crew sackings (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/brutish_airways_anti-bully_bu.aspx)

..in the centre of London I just hope they also increase the level of dignity a bit also, so far it's been a bit lacking. More neat and tidy men and women looking like people you want to serve you on an aircraft, and thereby perhaps support, and a bit less pants and poor willy jokes should be the order of the day I suggest.

[Chesh01]

There seems to be alot of chatter regarding the staff travel issue.

Why not ballot those with staff travel as to whether the strikers can have their perks returned?

I think the outstanding diciplinery cases must be dealt with case by case. Its the Unite's responsibility to defend their members in the hearings not the media. If they have done nothing wrong then they will be allowed back and be better crew for the experience. You do not appreciate what you have until you realise you might lose it.

[Eddy]

Giza, I was passing through 5 on the way home today and I asked a question of a chap in a high-vis jacket. The answer came in the most broad of Welsh accents I've ever heard.

I asked whether the chap had come from CWL to help out and he said he had. I thanked him, shook the man's hand and was on my way. He seemed genuinely chuffed to have any sort of recognition because, god knows, he's unlikely to get anything official from the company.

[flybymerchant]

Tenko/DH.....

you say you have been employed as BA Cabin Crew at LHR for 16 years.

Would it be fair to say that you are therefore 'old contract'? Forgive me if I've got it wrong, but aren't pre-'97 cabin crew paid a significant amount of money more than cabin crew who joined after that date?

If so, and I put my hand up here and admit this isn't my area of expertise, surely when you say you EARN £27,000, you're being ever so slightly economical with the truth, no?

Do you mean that your BASIC PAY is £27,000? If so, surely you actually EARN well over £40,000 (and by that we mean the amount of money you earn in a year before tax, including all allowances, indeed, everything).

Can someone please clarify this for me?

I mean, even our lowest paid LHR cabin crew member must have a BASIC salary of approximately, what, £12,000? Add on the £15,000+ allowances, that makes £27,000.....well above the national average salary, and that's the starter rate on the 'bad' contract.

Surely someone on the 'old contract' who is working full time and has 16 years of annual increments is earning FAR more than £12,000 basic, more like £27,000 basic.

Tenko/DH.....are you still maincrew after 16 years?

Can anyone else confirm what the BASIC pay of a 16 years LHR based full time CC member is?

Otherwise it's all crap right? I mean, can't I claim to only earn £13,000 as a pilot....say what?...you want my variable pay AND my basic pay? And my allowances? Steady on!

Odd that Tenko hasn't replied to any of the questions people have been asking.....maybe he's doing the decent thing and searching out his P60 (only just come through the post), then adding about 10% for the tax-free part of our allowances that don't feature on the P60 and will be back on here tomorrow apologising for accidentally hiding £15,000 (36%) of his salary when asking us to pity how little he earns......

What amuses me is that many people suspect that Tenko is in fact one of Duncan Holley's ingenious alter-egos...this is someone who incredibly 'earned' £42,000 a year for only 20 hours work for British Airways!!! I make that £2,100 an hour...good work if you can get it (although he evidently didn't think so!)

Interesting that many comments have said how the £27,000 figure was well above the national average and that he should be pretty happy with that.....he doesn't seem too happy with £42,000 odd, which is over twice what a fully qualified Nurse/Teacher/Policeman/etc will earn.

What concerns me is that Willie Walsh is promising to protect this pay AND the terms & conditions!

When you think what he could so EASILY do to your contracts, your terms & conditions AND your pay (see Aer Leprechaun) in his current position of utmost supremacy, with such unprecedented support from EVERYONE, don't you think you should bite his hand off?! I would. Thankfully it would appear that more and more CC are starting to realise the nature of the beast.

I just can't help feeling sorry for those few (2500 odd?) CC who are still on strike.....I know they're being deluded, everyone else can see it, and I don;t think they're bad people, but unfortunately they're not leaving WW any other option but to treat them as very naughty boys and girls.

That said I can't help but think that there can only be a small minority of mislead, ill-informed, sheepy guys there, the rest I think we have to now assume are fully-informed militants, hell-bent on BAs destruction.

I think the best option all round would be to agree to go our separate ways.....we carry on supporting BA and rebuilding this shell of an airline towards taking-over-the-world part II and they get 'let go', even if it is seen as 'unfair'....surely that is better than bankrupting the airline? The greater good need to be protected at some stage, no? I think the public are angry at Willie for NOT having sacked anyone yet

[Chuchinchow]

Could they for example take away free parking at the airport for striking workers? I'd say not and it is a similar perk/concession.

If an airline employee is on strike why would he/she need free parking at the airport in the first place?

[Eddy]

I think he means after the strike.....

[flybymerchant]

As I understand it the new ballot needs to be unrelated to the original one if it's to extend the 12 weeks protection, so surely, reinstatement of staff travel and IA-related disciplinaries is too closely related?

[Chuchinchow]

There seems to be alot of chatter regarding the staff travel issue.

Why not ballot those with staff travel as to whether the strikers can have their perks returned?


This is a totally preposterous idea. The management of BA should and must be left in the hands of BA management.

Like it or not, we are working for an international publicly-listed company - not a kibbutz.

(Come to that, even a kibbutz can impose sanctions on its members who do not stick to accepted norms of behaviour.)

[flybymerchant]

Am I right in thinking that for BA to change contracts it has to be for ALL cabin crew?

If so, that will be an incredibly unpopular way of resolving this deadlock, but nonetheless one option that WW legally has at his disposal.

He seemed to confirm the rumours at the WTS forum that he is staring to recruit new CC very soon.....are these in excess of current numbers, or do they allow him to sack all strikers (2500), make the role of Purser redundant and get them to sign up to New fleet contracts, or exercise his previously filed HN1 (HR1?) which is filed to notify of 2000 compulsory redundancies.

I think that either way he needs to wait 3 months before any new recruits join the company.....that said he can START now, and put loads in a holding pool.

I think he's unable to recruit while there's a strike going on, but technically the strike ends on 10th June, and even though there may be another ballot in the pipeline, he's free to recruit I think.

Either way, big changes ahead methinks. I really hope that he doesn't allow the actions of the few to disadvantage the commendable actions of the many that have shown up for work and supported BA.

If bassa keep nipping at his heels he may just turn around and say, 'new contracts all round', and I'm afraid that as long as he gives 90 days notice he can do this with the full support of the law. I really hope that he looks at every other alternative and sticks by his assurance to protect current (working) crew.

[report call sign]

I'm so upset with all the self important rubbish that has been posted on this site. This is people's livelihoods you are talking about and to be honest none of you care about that, it's all about YOU and your opinion. Please look at the bigger picture. Don't you see that what they have to give up is a lot to ask of anyone, and if the shoe was on the other foot you would be out theer fighting your cause. Let me remind you of the Openskies situation that happened not so long ago. What's to say that the Cirrus rumour is not something you should be worried about?

I have had enough, this is my life you are playing God with and I can't take it anymore. I'm at the end of my rope with all this. I'm not even sure who I can talk to, confide in, or even believe these days. I look at everything that has happened over the last couple of years and I CANNOT SEE A WAY OUT.

I've never felt so low in my life and after giving so much to a company I have loved and been proud to work for, for so long I don't know where to go now.

I'm in a situation where I could loose everything I have worked for, for so long and yes I CAN HEAR YOU ALL SAY, That's my choice, but hey if this was you wouldn't you do the same thing and stand up for what you believe in.

I've give so much to this Company for the last 16 years and to be honest I don't think I'm over paid and I really have to despute the fact that I have under achieve. I'm full time and if you really want to know my earnings well it's just over £27,000. Now please look at yourselves and think how would you live on that?

These are hard times and everybody I know realises that but we are not fighting for anything more, just the right to keep what we have. I don't want to give up my flat and my life that I have worked so hard to keep just because there are people out there who are willing to do my job for a mere £11,000 and £2.40 ph. If they found pilots willing to do the same then you'll end up in the same boat.

This is a serious issure and the crew involved are nothing like the people you are talking about. They have fed and watered you for years.They have sat and shared their company with you and enjoyed your input. They have the same goal as you, which is to see the Company succeed. They are just not willing to do this at their expense.

Please stop all this bashing of your colleagues, they are afterall the eyes and ears of your flight, you need to be able to trust them and this is not helping.

I really believe that all you have to say is just helping to prolong the dispute. Let's sit back and look at the facts and think, What if this was me? What would i do? How would I react? What if the company wins, will they come after me next, after all I am the best paid pilot in the World!!!!!!!!!! Familiar???????

I'm a human being who has done everything to make sure my passengers I have on my flights get off and feel special. I give them everything I have and even though the product is not up to what is was I have managed to make up for that by just being me. I joined this company 16 years ago as a career choice and I really believed that I made a good choice, but now that is not enough. I have my mortgage based on my present earnings, not extravagant, but now that is too much, Where do we stop.

Please look at how you would deal with this...... How would you cope......... What if someone decided that you were overpaid and under achieving? .......... I'm alone in all this an I have no where to go. I can't see a way out........ I can't believe that school yard tactics are ruining my life. I want to do what I do really well, and I'll only give it up when I decide, not you or our management. What would you do if they said that you were to be replaced by cheaper younger staff. How would you feel?

Now saying all that, Look deep inside you, before you reply, I'm not interested in getting into a debate, My future is at stake here and I haven't even committed a crime.

Have some compassion and think about what you are saying because if this was you, I would. Just think about how Mr Walsh's success would affect you. Imagine how you would cope. I know there are no VCC out there who can replace yiou but there are plenty unemployed and well unless you are unique, no one is safe.

We just happen to be the largest group and well they will never stop there, we are just a way forward. A win for Mr Walsh is a way to prove that no one is safe.

I am sorry to put all this in writing, but I have just about had enough and if I'm really honest, I don't want to give up something I'm really good at and I'm really proud of. I want a future and I want to fall in love with my Company again. I want us all to live in harmony again. I don't want to fear a destroyed CRM situation which could end up costing lives.

Please people think about what you have to say and look at the facts. The future of your crew is at stake and if they manange to break us then it is only a matter of time before they visit you.Tenko
I won’t get into a debate
a few points
you say you are upset
1. Who has upset you?
2. WHO has told you that YOU will take home LESS money in the future
3.WHO has told you that you will loose everything you have worked for?
4. WHO has said YOU are going to be replaced for cheaper younger staff?

Now IF the answer to those questions is your UNION, then I need you to look at just a few FACTS
IS THIS the same union that gave out the banter "we will get staff travel reinstated don’t worry, it always comes back?"
IS THIS the union that has LOST 3 out of 4 court cases in the past 12 months?
IS THIS the union that nearly drove you down a 12 day strike at Christmas that would have been ILLEGAL!
IS THIS the union that AGREED to YOUR fellow colleagues at Gatwick being on the current contracts they are on
IS THIS the union that takes it members out on the biggest strike EVER to face the airline IN THE SAME YEAR that same airline posts RECORD LOSSES?
IS THIS the union that didn’t allow YOU to vote on a proposal back in march that it later on after the strikes, agreed it would recommend its members accepting if staff travel was reinstated to normal status?
IS THIS the union that actually wants you to take a pay cut?
IS THIS the union that balloted its members on IMPOSSITION, however will SUSPEND strikes if staff travel is reinstated:ugh:

OR
I ask you this
IS THIS the Company, that has promised NOT to alter your terms and conditions in ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM, and has reached its cost savings, on current fleets through non salary restructure?
The question now is really, really, who you trust!

[Meal Chucker]

I am not trying to wind anyone up. BA has and probably will embargo ST to all. But and this is unqualified, BA has never removed ST from a specific group, just because the management team has decided to, as a punishment. I may be wrong, so I will apologise unconditionally if I have made a mistake.


Actually BA has removed staff travel before for striking, back in the early 90's most of the engineers from the maintenance base when on strike because of the introduction of 12 hour shifts.

Can't remember how long they lost it for, it was more than a year, but if you are the same Litebulbs that posts on Airmech, I suggest you ask the question there as I expect some of those guys may remember.

[hunterboy]

BA also removed staff travel from the striking Spanish ground staff when they went on strike several years ago to prevent their jobs from being outsourced to Iberia. AFAIK, they still don't have it back.

[freddydog]

From what i am reading here its not the staff travel return that is the problem but also the return of seniority with it. Now WW has said you can have staff travel back but with no seniorty which is in my opinion is right and fair, as seniority is built up from CONTNUED and LOYAL service (ie not striking and damaging the company). You will have to start again and prove yourselves. This is exactly the same for ALL STAFF.

[stormin norman]

If new contracts were given to all the present crew, even if the strike was broken you would have many thousands of hacked off staff, who however many CRM courses were given would still go to work without enthusiasum.If any previous strikes are to go by-the internal infighting has only just begun.

With BASSA is on its knees,Unite is on the back foot and the company has all it wants on the table, is it now not time for the CEO to give a little and settle this ?

[wiggy]

Stormin.

What do suggest the CEO's got left to give? The strike now seems to now be about restoring full Staff Travel to strikers and a waiver of the Company's Disciplinary process for a select few.

Firstly many of the "non-strikers" came to work because they didn't want to loose staff travel...they might just accept the strikers getting staff travel back with loss of seniority, to give the full benefit back will not go down well.

As for the disciplinaries - there's a recognised Company disciplinary procedure that applies to all employees...I don't see how any CEO could turn around and intervene in the process.

Frankly the strikers will be lucky if they are "given" their jobs back. Some think they shouldn't even get that.

[BlueUpGood]

With BASSA is on its knees,Unite is on the back foot and the company has all it wants on the table, is it now not time for the CEO to give a little and settle this ?

I, and I think all in BA bar most cabin crew, see this dispute as about finally stopping BASSA screaming strike every time BA wants to manage it's business. BASSA IMHO are not interested in properly representing it's members, just in maintaining it's status. To cave in on staff travel would be disastrous. BASSA and UNITE would be dancing in the streets, proclaiming a great victory, and be even more difficult to deal with in the future.

The line has been drawn, and Willie need to ensure the Bassamentalists never cross it again. NO to reinstatement. NO to BASSA holding us all to ransom.

[Hand Solo]

So the militants are getting very excited about Mr Mamad Kashani, who claims to be one of BAs top customers, and has been writing open letters to newspapers in support of the strikers and has visited them in Bedfont. He certainly seems an elusive customer. It appears he is the director of a property company that has a total annual turnover smaller than the travel budget of most of our major corporates but claims he is a Premier, and has also claimed he is in close contact with the board and the Chairman. Anybody else find his story a little implausible?

[BentleyH]

The schedule continues to grow by the day.
In the last 24 hours an extra daily BOS (now flying 2 out of 3) and the third daily LAX have been re-instated.
Willie does not need to negotiate with Unite. The future will be sooo much better with them left out in the cold.

[Pornpants1]

BASSA do not know the amount of people that have gone on strike yet. They do not have a clue. Vague estimates of claims for strike pay run at 4000 ish for both sets of industrial action.

BA know the exact number of strikers and people who have been sick, this figure is less than 3000 but great than 2500;)

with 30 new strikers a day its plain to see that the action is not working.

Remember for those at BFC, a full crowd means;-

people on MBTs
people on Part Time
People sick
UNITE Officials and agitators
Other UNITE branch members (turning up for freebies;))
Wives, Girlfriends, Husbands, Kids and pets
Juan Odoboyo (turning up for freebies;))
Oh and some strikers:eek:

Strange that the Branch Chair is on record as saying "its impossible to say at the moment":yuk:

[Atreyu]

Such a mess over something so simple? WW warned them he would remove their staff travel if they went on strike, and quelle surprise! they have their staff travel removed after they go on strike! So why Unite/BASSA feels that it should be returned with full seniority is beyond me, I mean we're not dealing with children here (or are we?), surely if you're warned of the consequences of your actions then continue to strike anyway, then you must reap what you sow. My other half works for Cityflyer and I can assure you her P60 won't be as impressive as those boys and girls over at Bedfont FC today!

Stand your ground WW

Atreyu:ok:

[ns68]

Such a mess over something so simple? WW warned them he would remove their staff travel if they went on strike, and quelle surprise! they have their staff travel removed after they go on strike! So why Unite/BASSA feels that it should be returned with full seniority is beyond me, I mean we're not dealing with children here (or are we?), surely if you're warned of the consequences of your actions then continue to strike anyway, then you must reap what you sow.

The reason why UNITE/Bassa feels that it should be returned with full seniority is because it is illegal to punish people for taking part in a LEGAL INDUSTRIAL ACTION.
That is the only reason why! I think I have said in a previous post that whether Willie Walsh gives it back or not is irrelevant. The courts and the law will give it back if we get to that point-(I wouldn't have a problem in waiting,it is saving me a lot of money living without staff travel and also it is saving me a lot of time in checking hotlines for other people,am not booking those either-i feel for our commuters though!) Unlike our management I really think Unite will not waste millions in legal fee,will rather talk around a table but I still think they are on the case.That's is only my view though!

[ns68]

to fly12345

Honestly,I do not know how you do it..I did try to go in, not because I agree with the changes that are coming soon for us but just for the intimidation..and i really really seriuosly thought about it..I was almost on my way.

But i couldn't.80%voted yes,the strike was announced..whether 1% or the full 80% took industrial action.. i just don t think i would feel good about myself.

[HiFlyer14]

NS68

I feel very good about the people that I have been able to assist on strike dates; and I have operated in all 3 blocks of the strike. In my entire career with BA I have never had such appreciative customers; it makes me feel quite embarrassed as I’m just doing my job.

There are worse things in life than being asked to work a bit harder. Discuss that over your Pimms at Bedfont today; I have a flight to operate.

[M2dude]

To strikers of Bedfont: The majority of crew that are working (and doing a wonderful job) are doing so because it is the right thing to do and want a secure long term future. And please don't think that it's WW against BASSA, you are fighting the whole airline. Don't bother coming back; we are better off without you

[Get Smart]

The latest email from bassa goes:

Day 11 in the Bedfont, Big Brother house.

If you build it they will come...

The momentum is building, you can feel it; there is an energy about
Bedfont that is almost tangible - it's a feeling of strength of being part
of something. And seriously this is not BASSA spin, as if we would!

So many brand new XXXXers coming along to join us now, and lots of people
who went to work last time but didn't feel right doing it again - they
were nervous when they came, but every single one of them left grinning
from ear to ear. All at Bedfont applauded their bravery and were just
glad to see them.

Strikes have a way of showing a person's true character; there is no fence
to sit on with this one and it almost always proves one thing - those who
shout the loudest and have the most opinions are often the ones furthest
from the picket lines; it's often the quiet people who shine and show
their determination not to be bullied.

Bedfont is alive with gossip and rumours of who went to work and broke the
strike and who didn't. Some of these "names" are well known people in our
community and a few would be the last people that you would imagine would
cross a picket line, but they have...... so be it. We can't change that,
but for those that continue to show a true courage, a courage to stand up
not just for themselves but also for others, you deserve their thanks,
even if they don't know it. You of course, have our eternal gratitude, you
are - quite simply - what makes our job as reps worth doing and are "what
being in a union is all about" - Thank you, yet again!

New limited edition, black XXXX luggage labels are now available - make
sure you

collect yours! Management have now gone from making life as difficult as
possible for strikers, to attempting to bribe them with the offer of
lucrative trips to operate next week, the boot is well and truly
transferring to the other foot!

Donations to our strike fund continue to be delivered from all over the
country and from abroad, from all sorts of people and groups and with
incredible generosity and kindness. Some of them small, from an elderly
gentlemen who donated GBP5 through the post from his pension and some of
them massive, the steel workers of America have pledged thousand of
dollars. These will all be used along with the GBP750,000 already pledged
by Unite, to improve strike pay when the amount-per-person can be
calculated.

The open top protest bus to Speakers Corner for the "gagged crew" press
event will be leaving around 11am. The queue to get on it has already
started.

See you tomorrow for day twelve, eight o'clock prompt please!


They are seriously living in the Matrix over there at BFC!! :confused:

[fly12345]

NS68
Easy, don t spit on the plate you are eating from and don t bite the hand that feeds you.
The present offer without fantasing, speculating about the future is an acceptable and fair one, live another day to tell the tale and if there is a need and reason for another fight another time perhaps we ll talk, discuss again.
In this dispute there are no winners or losers, if we carry on we are all losers.
I have not volunteered to work you have volunteered not to.

[Wirbelsturm]

The reason why UNITE/Bassa feels that it should be returned with full seniority is because it is illegal to punish people for taking part in a LEGAL INDUSTRIAL ACTION.
That is the only reason why! I think I have said in a previous post that whether Willie Walsh gives it back or not is irrelevant. The courts and the law will give it back if we get to that point-(I wouldn't have a problem in waiting,it is saving me a lot of money living without staff travel and also it is saving me a lot of time in checking hotlines for other people,am not booking those either-i feel for our commuters though!) Unlike our management I really think Unite will not waste millions in legal fee,will rather talk around a table but I still think they are on the case.That's is only my view though!

Firstly, staff travel, as a perk, can be removed for any reason. It is not contractural thus it doesn't appear on your tax bill. The company clearly stated that, for strikers, ST would be withdrawn if they took action against the company to cover the costs of non complience with the required cost savings measures for each department. I seem to remember that they were quite clear on the point that each member that didn't turn up to work would be required to contibute to the savings by having their travel perks removed.

A petty point indeed but lets just think how that would stand up in court? Victimisation? Not really.

Unlike our management I really think Unite will not waste millions in legal fee,will rather talk around a table but I still think they are on the case.That's is only my view though

You can't. Your Union, BASSA, held a 'show of hands' which concluded that no further negotiation should take place. Have a look on You Tube, it's probably still on there, you know the one, 'It is with great sorrow.....' etc. followed by rousing cheers and whooping. Priceless.

But i couldn't.80%voted yes,the strike was announced..whether 1% or the full 80% took industrial action.. i just don t think i would feel good about myself.

80% of 60% resulting in just about 53% voting in a non-anonymous ballot (participants were required to enter their deatils for login purposes! Not going to squirrel away that SQL database are we!) over what? Even the original ballot contained no information as to what IA was being taken about. Add in your own greivance as long as you vote yes.

When Crew woke up to the reality of the situation and the mess that both Unite and BASSA are in coupled with the consequences that we could all be out of a job they took a reality check and came to work.

In history the majority of major airlines that have gone bust have done so in the 18 months that follow a recession.

[ns68]

On my last flight on a STRIKE DATE, there was a lady, probably only in her early 40s, whose husband had died suddenly while they were away. He was in a coffin in the hold; she had his belongings and his laptop on her knee. I spent a long time talking to the lady, feeling somewhat helpless. But I am so very glad that I and the others operated that day to be able to bring her and her much-loved husband home to rest. I feel very good about the people that I have been able to assist. In my entire career with BA I have never had such appreciative customers; it makes me feel quite embarrassed as I’m just doing my job. There are worse things in life than being asked to work a bit harder. Discuss that over your Pimms at Bedfont today.

Please don't be that patronizing.I have been helding hands before and I have had my hand held before. I have been very upset about this strike and I have been a bit tearful as well, but for the same reason you said , I think I overreacted..there is indeed worst things in life than worrying about my job. Saying that,fortunately and I consider myself very lucky for this, at the moment I do not have other major worries and the job and the protection of my current salary are my priorities.

You say about passengers being over appreciative..I will give you an example of how appreciative they can be and at the same time disregard others.
On disembarking my last flight about a week ago when the strike was stopped by the injuction one of the comment was something on this line: "Thanks for not going on strike this week,now you can go on strike..Am home!" It was a joke and am sure he didn't mean anything bad by it..but please do not try and make it look as if it is a one way effort from you and only you people going into work during industrial action.

There is people who are taking industrial action who are the same ones that dealt with death on board..medical emergency..and all sorts.. you like myself have probably been in an emergency landing before and you know what the feeling is. Taking industrial action and go to Bedfont or going into work doesn't make you any better or worse.

When you give a good service and care to our passenger I find that on most flight they are extremely appreciative.

[Juan Tugoh]

So what next? It seems clear that WW is not going to give in and that the series of strikes will continue and nothing will change. So we approach the 12th of June with no resloution, then what? Another ballot is unlikely to pass legal scrutiny as the dispute is the same dispute, so where do the union go next?

Expect to see a growing rift between UNITE and BASSA as it becomes clear to the professional union officials that they are going to get nothing out of this, they have used their big guns to no effect and only suicide remains. BASSA of course will not see this and will continue to rant without realising that any further action leaves them open to sacking without recourse.

So I ask again, what next?

[ns68]

So what next? It seems clear that WW is not going to give in and that the series of strikes will continue and nothing will change. So we approach the 12th of June with no resloution, then what? Another ballot is unlikely to pass legal scrutiny as the dispute is the same dispute, so where do the union go next?

I think the next ballot will be about staff travel and disciplinary..a complete different subject.

[Wirbelsturm]

I think the next ballot will be about staff travel and disciplinary..a complete different subject.

Another spectacular waste of time. For Staff travel see above.

For disciplinaries, the Union agreed the disciplinary processes. Surely, if there is cause for concern over behaviour or bringing the company into disrepute, the full correct process must be allowed to run. Once finished if the staff member feels that it was unfair they have an agreed process of appeal.

Duncan Holley was sacked for consistently not turning up to work before the IA even started. Do we really want him back at BA? I think not personally.

Lets clutch at some more straws to drag the protection date out past the 12th. Shame they can't legally just print 'will you go on strike' again. Saves the paperwork. :ugh:

[Juan Tugoh]

I think the next ballot will be about staff travel and disciplinary..a complete different subject.
ns68 is online now Report Post Reply

I think that both TW and DS have made it abundantly clear over the last few weeks that both staff travel and disciplinaries are part of this dispute. The problem with a ballot on the subject is that either this dispute is now about that or the next one is, they cannot have it both ways - ballot on for the next dispute and UNITE run the risk of a court case about this dispute, particularly the current set of strikes. The risk is that these strikes will be ruled illegal with all the financial and other penalties that may accrue. Similarly the legal protections against dismissal are also under threat if this course of action is followed. It would be in the hands of the court of course, but its an enormous risk to take.

[flapsforty]

Some old rules for those who have recently joined us, and for those who never did look what they agreed to when they joined in a dim and distant past. ;)

Please read the following:

Argue points instead of attacking your opponent´s person, intelligence, identity, (non)union affiliation, position relative to the cockpit door etc etc. As in play the ball, not the player. Failure to do so leads to thread ban.
.
If a post contains something you think is against PPRuNe rules, use the http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/buttons/report.gif button you see on the left of every post. Mods will then look at that post and take action accordingly.
.
This thread is open for posts from currently employed airline staff only. Anybody else, use the thread on the SLF forum about this subject.
.
Don´t post repetitive rubbish, page fillers, "just got back from the pub and this is hilarious" funnies.
.
This thread is not about the deal between BA pilots and BA management.
.
Mods have no stake in this debate, despite both sides in this dispute having accused us of favouring their opponent. We apply the rules; if you don´t stick to them, your post will get deleted. Whatever your point of view or the merit of the rest of your post.

[ns68]

The risk is that these strikes will be ruled illegal with all the financial and other penalties that may accrue.

I did think of that..as i said before the only reason why I would have gone in would have been the intimidation..this kind of intimidation.. but I have spoken to people in and outside the company and have been confirmed that this set of strikes was declared legal by the Court the other day. There is no doubt about that. It was only a few days ago.There is nothing illegal about this third wave of strike apparently.

But I did fear initially that would be the case.

[Juan Tugoh]

this set of strikes was declared legal by the Court the other day. There is no doubt about that. It was only a few days ago.There is nothing illegal about this third wave of strike apparently.


I agree with you here but,,

That is as it stands at the moment without another ballot wrt to staff travel and disciplinaries. As TW and DS have both stated that this strike is now over these two issues then any further ballot on these two issues will either invalidate the current set of strikes or the next ballot. Either way the ballot itself is likely to cause a legal problem for the strikers and union.

I did think of that..as i said before the only reason why I would have gone in would have been the intimidation..this kind of intimidation

I hope you did not mean that my post was intimidatory, it is only a question as to how the IA will progress. I am not threatening anyone with anything, just curious.

[Wirbelsturm]

I did think of that..as i said before the only reason why I would have gone in would have been the intimidation..this kind of intimidation

I don't understand this? You feel intimidated because your Union might not have correctly balloted? That is akin to driving along a road and feeling intimidated that you might not know the correct speed limit and might get fined! The law is perfectly clear on the requirements for IA to be legal. Unite/BASSA just seem to have a little trouble following them. As for the company they are required by the investors and shareholders to employ every legal avenue to prevent further damage to the company. Even if it goes against the wishes of the CEO as this one apprently did.

Whilst I disagree with the current strikes per se, I think that any member of the Unions should have the courage of their own convictions. Blaming the inability to take industrial action you voted for on intimidation is a little weak imho.

The CC need strong representation, that has never been in doubt, what they don't need is the lying, vindictive representation that they are currently receiving from BASSA.

Perhaps I am just reading it wrong?

[ns68]

I hope you did not mean that my post was intimidatory, it is only a question as to how the IA will progress. I am not threatening anyone with anything, just curious.


Not at all. I meant what has been coming from the company itself .One of the ESS messages before the injunction was reading something on the line of: "if we get the strike to be called illegal..there will be no protection for people who took industrial action"..I don t remember the right words.
I felt very intimidated by that..I well remember thinking on the day""AM GOING IN, AND I WILL GO IN EVEN ON MY DAYS OFF FROM NOW ON""
Very sad I know but I felt that way..

[ns68]

to wirbelstum:

Perhaps I am just reading it wrong?NO, you have read it exactly right.
And I consider both sides wrong and right at times but this one time-the february ballot- I voted yes for industrial action..so call me old fashioned but I sticked to my vote.

Unite could do things better in my opinion,and might have let some people down.
If re-balloted I will take into consideration all this new twists and vote accordingly. and act accordingly.
But at the moment I have decided to follow my vote..trying to do the right thing.

[Hand Solo]

From the Trade Union and Labour Relations Act:

233 Calling of industrial action with support of ballot (1) Industrial action shall not be regarded as having the support of a ballot unless it is called by a specified person and the conditions specified below are satisfied.
(2) A “specified person” means a person specified or of a description specified in the voting paper for the ballot in accordance with section 229(3).
(3) The conditions are that—
(a) there must have been no call by the trade union to take part or continue to take part in industrial action to which the ballot relates, or any authorisation or endorsement by the union of any such industrial action, before the date of the ballot;

Note the red bit. TW has already said the strike is about staff travel. You haven't yet ballotted on striking over staff travel. If you do ballot over staff travel you run the very real risk of invalidating one or the other of the ballots. What a mess Unite are in. And thats before they realise that BA can run a decent schedule without the strikers and simply starve them back to work.

[Get Smart]

I certainly didn't feel intimidated by the ESS sent out re the ballot result - or any of the ESS mail sent out regarding the strike for that matter. I merely think they are being up front about the consequences. I for one would much prefer to be kept informed of where I stand which is something I don't think Bassa have done for its members. :=

Anyway, I'm off to work now and looking forward to a nice flight. As stated here many times by numberous posters, working during the IA is actually pleasant. And yes, the pax are overly grateful belive it or not. Greateful that so many of us are displaying the common sense to keep the airline flying. :ok:

[ns68]

I certainly didn't feel intimidated by the ESS sent out re the ballot result - or any of the ESS mail sent out regarding the strike for that matter. I merely think they are being up front about the consequences. I for one would much prefer to be kept informed of where I stand which is something I don't think Bassa have done for its members. :=

yeah,you are right..maybe i should just take it as the company keeping us in the loop..instead of being over sensitive and seeing as intimidation...-i am a woman afterall..

[gr8tballsoffire]

NS68
If you read your ballot paper properly you would have noted that even Unite pointed out the lack of protection after 90 days, so any message you may have got from management was no different. No intimidation involved, simply reminding you of the facts.
I am assuming that BASSA /UNITE wouldn't be stupid enough to call an illegal strike, but after 12 June I would suggest you are very careful about any decisions you make. It is YOUR job at risk, not Duncan Holley's, Tony Woodley's or Derek Simpson. Whatever happens they will be secure in the knowledge that they are safe and secure.

[VSOP Fables]

Re your post 3992, see mine 3837. What a great bunch to travel up like that. My lot came by car, so it wasn't a question of hitching a ride on an a/c destined for maintenance. And they night-stopped to get in two days worth of volunteering. I do hope someone from CWL reads this and passes on the messages.

[davidexba]

I'd be very interested to read the daily message sent out by Mr H if anyone has access to this. I'd just like to 'hear' what is being said to those crew taking part in IA each day, and the view from BFC (or London as I believe today).

[Hand Solo]

Your wish is my command. This is yesterdays message, todays dose of Holley fantasy has yet to be penned.

Latest News

DAY 11 IN THE YOU KNOW WHAT
May 27th, 2010 by admin

Day 11 in the Bedfont, Big Brother house.

If you build it they will come...

The momentum is building, you can feel it; there is an energy about Bedfont that is almost tangible - it’s a feeling of strength of being part of something.And seriously this is not BASSA spin, as if we would!

So many brand new XXXXers coming along to join us now, and lots of people who went to work last time but didn’t feel right doing it again - they were nervous when they came, but every single one of them left grinning from ear to ear. All at Bedfont applauded their bravery and were just glad to see them.

Strikes have a way of showing a person’s true character; there is no fence to sit on with this one and it almost always proves one thing - those who shout the loudest and have the most opinions are often the ones furthest from the picket lines; it’s often the quiet people who shine and show their determination not to be bullied.

Bedfont is alive with gossip and rumours of who went to work and broke the strike and who didn’t. Some of these “names” are well known people in our community and a few would be the last people that you would imagine would cross a picket line, but they have...... so be it. We can’t change that, but for those that continue to show a true courage, a courage to stand up not just for themselves but also for others, you deserve their thanks, even if they don’t know it. You of course, have our eternal gratitude, you are - quite simply - what makes our job as reps worth doing and are “what being in a union is all about” - Thank you, yet again!

New limited edition, black XXXX luggage labels are now available - make sure you

collect yours! Management have now gone from making life as difficult as possible for strikers, to attempting to bribe them with the offer of lucrative trips to operate next week, the boot is well and truly transferring to the other foot!

Donations to our strike fund continue to be delivered from all over the country and from abroad, from all sorts of people and groups and with incredible generosity and kindness. Some of them small, from an elderly gentlemen who donated £5 through the post from his pension and some of them massive, the steel workers of America have pledged thousand of dollars. These will all be used along with the £750,000 already pledged by Unite, to improve strike pay when the amount-per-person can be calculated.

The open top protest bus to Speakers Corner for the “gagged crew” press event will be leaving around 11am. The queue to get on it has already started.

See you tomorrow for day twelve, eight o’clock prompt please!

[Snas]

I'd be very interested to read the daily message sent out by Mr H if anyone has access to this. I'd just like to 'hear' what is being said to those crew taking part in IA each day, and the view from BFC (or London as I believe today).

You have the BASSA one from the poster above, below is the offering from Unite: -


Day 12, Friday, May 28th: Of the 333 flights BA said it was scheduled to operate today:

By 9am, 121 of these were cancelled - 20 of these are long haul and include flights to major and lucrative destinations including New York, Newark, Boston, Tel Aviv and Johannesburg.
101 Eurofleet flights were also cancelled .
BA is continuing to cancel flights to all main UK cities including Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh.
There is still heavy reliance on the wet-leasers and competitors to provide flights. Today they are being used on 56 flights, around one in six of BA flights. Not only do BA pay for carriers to take the passengers, they hand over the revenue from these flights too. Qantas, Iberia and Aer Lingus are the main beneficiaries today operating BA flights to Bangkok, Sydney, Melbourne, Madrid and Dublin.The cost to BA of ending the strike is nothing as cabin crew have offered a pay cut. Today is day 12 of the strike; by its own conservative estimates the strike has now cost BA £84 million.

Those cancel flight numbers dont agree with what I have seen from other sources, but who knows?


Source: - http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/ba_strike_update_-_day_12.aspx (http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/ba_strike_update_-_day_12.aspx)

[IYCSWICSWICW]

So, a quick fag packet calculation on that £750 000,

4000 strikers ish, divided into said amount, divided by 18 days of withdrawn labour, (by the time this stretch finishes) = £10.41 per day. Add that to your 30 quid/day, and you'll be able to manage - right?

[Pornpants1]

Its nowhere near 4000 strikers:ok:

Please also remember that strike pay counts as taxable income and must be declared;)

Wouldn't want poorly remunerated cabin crew getting fined for non payment of tax:eek:

[Meal Chucker]

Wouldn't want poorly renumerated cabin crew getting fined for non payment of tax


And thanks to Bassa I'm sure I pay more than my fair share of Tax!

Allowances or Back-to-back hotel anyone??

[IYCSWICSWICW]

Look, BA is a business, and the sooner people grip this fact the better. Mr Walsh has his mandate to run the airline as he sees fit underpinned by: (in no particular order)

The Board
All other BA Executive Officers
Shareholders
88% of BA Employees
The Travelling Public
The Non-travelling Public
Mine

He has to deliver, to the city, an airline free from the tyranny of Trades Unionism - The UNITE leadership are de facto The British Communist Party. The are a minority group of power-crazed misanthropes and will be defeated on this maddening, self-destructive pursuit of glory. Woodley, Simpson, Barber, Turner, McCluskey (where is he) know damn well that they are bullet-proof come the revolution. Sadly the BA strikers are not and are left awfully exposed to the next few weeks of business. The CC's only hope is a benevolent Mr Walsh, because the list of folk above, have had enough.

GF

[essessdeedee]

BA has never removed ST from a specific group Sorry for being late to this party, as this may have already been said -

BA have never warned anyone of this risk in advance of taking a specific action which would financially impact the company.

Therein lies the difference.

[Rover90]

Short extract from the Duncan Holley missive yesterday:

Strikes have a way of showing a person’s true character; there is no fence to sit on with this one and it almost always proves one thing - those who shout the loudest and have the most opinions are often the ones furthest from the picket lines;"those who shout the loudest and have the most opinions are often the ones furthest from the picket lines"

True words indeed, some reps are off long term sick and immune to withdrawal of staff travel and others are as far away as Los Angeles.

Possibly the real casualties of this whole episode are going to be a bunch of 2000+ very decent people amongst the 3000+ strike force following a leadership that they believed had a creditable plan.

It is over, just a matter of how the end will come.

[7Heroes]

BA makes most of its money on a handful of routes.Those are the flights going at the moment.To say that 120 flights have been cancelled is correct but doesn`t mean they have lost a 1/3 of their revenue.
A lot of short haul flights have been cancelled but they probably had negligeable effect on the bottom line anyway.They are using the 70% of crew reporting on the most lucrative routes.
With a £1.7 billion cash pile and losing £5-7 million a day( £2 million a day before the strike) BA can last for quite a while.
How long can striking crew continue to lose 15 days pay and allowances.

[Dozza2k]

Lates from Simpson:

dereksimpsonjgs

Willie Walsh continues to block a settlement to the BA dispute - this no cost matter will costs BA millions and continue passengers pain 13 minutes ago via Twitter for BlackBerry®


guess it didn't go well today.

[Wirbelsturm]

this no cost matter will costs BA millions and continue passengers pain

Perhaps he should concentrate more on getting his offspring Union to see sense than twittering to his brood.

They, Unite/BASSA are the ones causing pain by calling and maintaining IA over irrelevant, unrelated events.

Bye,bye BASSA.

[Hand Solo]

This might explain some of the numbers at Bedfont:}

Unfortunately it is true that someone landed from a trip this morning with 2 other crew and when they were trying to get their XxxX Bedfont t-shirt obviously the question was asked if they were a striker (because these were only given to those that were) and they admitted eventually that they were not and they were asked to leave. It was that person that then said there were 2 others with them. Not to mention they actually went on the open top bus to London to wave a flag, support our colleagues and TO STAND PROUD.

Oooh, and on the open top bus too! That's gotta sting!

[circuitbreaker13]

Yes this may cost BA 84 million but in the long run it will safe BA and this is the simple fact BASSA does'nt seem to understand!

I'ts BA's board of directors who determine what level of service we give to our passengers not BASSA!!!!

I do feel however it was not a good move to punish people for striking!

If there's one thing I dislike more then the people on strike it is the people who voted yes and are working now because if they would have stuck to their vote this dispute would have been long solved one way or another!!

I would like to invite BASSA one more time to try to explain to the rest of BA why we should not disrespect their striking collegues!!!

[64K]

I am sure that there are several people on the picket lines and buses will have done so on days off, leave, part time weeks, etc. and will be operating during the period too. I hope they are not the people who then spread rumours about who reported for work and who didn't. Some people....! :ugh:

(Views above are my own, not those of my employer)

[MarkSpeed]

Here you go. A pal of mine is a trainer. He told me of a woman recently who was very gobby and militant on SEP. Riling everyone up and generally chanting BASSA muck.

I saw her report for a flight yesterday.................

Says it all really.

[Eddy]

The few times I've been in to work on a strike day, I've been very surprised at some of the people I've seen..... VERY surprised indeed. Bassa's latest Big Brother installment said much the same, though, so this isn't news to anyone.

[BikerMark]

If the next ballot is solely going to be about the issue of losing staff travel, presumably that means the substantive offer is acceptable to Unite?

So I can't be the only one left wondering why Unite didn't accept the original pre-strike offer last year, avoid going on strike (with all the accompanying loss of pay, bad PR and hefty calls on union funds), keep everyone's staff travel and living to fight another day.

From conversations around the patch, many non-CC members of Unite are completely bemused by their union. Disillusioned, too.

[Litebulbs]

Sorry for being late to this party, as this may have already been said -

BA have never warned anyone of this risk in advance of taking a specific action which would financially impact the company.

Therein lies the difference.

I understand that, but is the removal of staff travel for industrial action contained within a current policy (non contractual)?

[Viewfrom5Bells]

Was told today by someone who may well know that the wet-lease planes are cheaper to run than the equivalent BA planes and crews so actually BA are regaining at least some of the cost of the strike. Also with cancellation of LHR runway 3 and the fanatastic cost performance by the BA staff at LGW there will be routes moving to LGW over the next few years though no word whether 787 or A380 will go there.

[flywcm]

Someone was asking what will happen now. WW has always had a plan, we can be sure of that. From reading much posted by "strikers" they are clearly unhappy at the original offer further compounded by their loss of ST. The atmosphere on the aircarft without the BASSA stalworts (sp) is an incredible atmosphere of teamspirit. Clearly the strikers would not be happy to return to work unless they get what they want. Walsh will not give it to them so what next? Well IMHO Walsh will give notice to vary their contract to the New Fleet terms and conditions. The strikers will end up with no where to go and can look forward to suing for wrongful dismissal. The Bassa members would not trust WW to do what he said, even what he offered. Instead they placed their trust in their Union. A big mistake. Now they have nowhere to go. Well you rap what you sew. I remember what Balpa's Mark Young used to say: "Don't enter a fight you cannot win"!

[Hand Solo]

It's all about him, isn't it. Perhaps if the union could have been bothered to turn up for talks then they'd have had the opportunity to meet Willie they seem to crave. I'm sure the psychologists will identify the adult-child nature of the transaction between Holley and his nemesis. "I just wanted you to love me Daddy, but now I'm going to be soooo naughty you'll wish you never punished me."

Hi everyone - just got back from Bedlam FC. And, having had a close encounter with a bus load of "tired and emotional" Liv/Manc members I am pleased to say I am still in one piece.
My God, that lot can drink - Bedfont is still reeling. I would also just like to send my best wishes to their bus driver - you sure got the short straw.

Seriously, what this lovely lot did today is the epitome of what this dispute has become - cabin crew from all over the country, and indeed the world uniting in one cause. Standing up to a bully.

Some of the stories I have heard today of some of the tricks BA managers are pulling simply defy belief and, on at least 2 occasions crew members have had to call the police for protection. More on that another time.

It appears now Willie still has three objectives which remain obstacles to peace.

1. He is determined to punish the strikers, despite the fact that returning full staff travel rights is not a cost issue (in fact it is a positive revenue issue).
2. He is determined to have a regime change at BASSA. Well he's got rid of me (he thought) but I'm not going anywhere soon. Seriously why is he so anti-BASSA, he's never met me or Lizanne and yet he talks as if we introduced Arthur Scargill to the world of militancy. Willie, grow up - man. Don't believe what Alun Howells told you - we want what you want, what the crew want, a happy successful airline. Nothing more, nothing less - it is a shame that, since your arrival you have never ever bothered to meet us or even talk to us. Had you even attempted to have been approachable from the beginning we surely would not be where we are today.
3. I also hear he wants "to starve the crew into submission". Well, Willie all I can say to that is, judging by the mound of cakes at Bedfont today you will have a long way to go. If you think you can brow beat the people who have gone on strike then think again. perhaps we should send a coachload from Man/Liv by way of example. They make the SWP look like ***** cats believe me.

Finally I gather you are unhappy at my new found position as BASSA spokesman. And you are angrily firing off e mails to the media (wined and dined) saying why are you interviewing that "lunatic" Duncan Holley and, have even instigated, using the BBC, another dirty tricks campaign re my income from Unite. Well, Willie the truth hurts. Perhaps you should have kept me quiet by leaving my disciplinary process dangling on a string like you have some of the other reps. You cannot silence the truth!

So, it looks as if the dispute will enter it's fourth stage. It is a shame that because of the 3 points above (all of which are simply outrageous reasons to continue this war) this nastiness goes on. We - that is BASSA/UNITE and it's membership - are still prepared to do business, forget all the personal stuff and end this dispute. If you drop these 3 unnecessary sticking points, sanity can prevail, but you have to appreciate you will not succeed if you continue to threaten, bully and intimidate.

Day off tomorrow everyone - so get baking, recover from your hangovers you north westerners and we will see you bright eyed and bushy tailed on Sunday morning. Remember everyone who gets to Bedfont before 10am gets a free breakfast bun.

As you can see by Willie's 3 objectives there is still much to do, and we need to remain united and determined. The XXXX army is on the march, it is getting bigger every day and I don't just mean in waist size.

[Pornpants1]

The above is a work of art, as is the psychological analysis:ok: seriously that is the same person that wrote TENKOs' post, the same person that forged the infamous "I went to work" email and the same person that wrote the 42 year old stewardess who missed the the birth of her own baby, when are the lemmings going to wake up to the lies?

Why will BASSA refuse to answer how many people have been on strike? You would think they would know!

Why are BASSA trying to negotiate the return of staff travel, and indeed naming it it as the reason they are still on strike if it is soooo against the law?

Why does Tony Woodley and Derek Twitter say that a deal is done apart from staff travel, yet BASSA slag any deal presented to anyone that will listen?:ouch:

[Nevermind]

It's quite frightening that people will actually put their careers on the line for someone who writes that rubbish above.

It's amazing how the more he goes on about Willie Walsh, the more I realise the only personality he's actually interested in is himself.

[ZILLI]

I am one of the crew that has decided to go to work, all be it reluctantly. I dare say this post will be deleted by the mods as was my previous one a few weeks ago.

I would like to put an end to the misconceptions and untruths being bandied about. The CRC was crowded yes, but it was crowded with mostly pilots and managers and unlikely looking crew, ie VC.

I would hardly call operating the flights with VC and pilots a bundle of laughs, and yes just like the steward who rang a radio station today to register his fear about flying with crew that did not know what they were doing and he was considering going on strike as he felt unsafe flying with VC, I know exactly what he means! I would not hope for any help in an emergency situation from any of them I am afraid.

[Pornpants1]

To put a balance on your claims ZILLI I trust you have never witnessed a complete cock up at SEP? I have year on year for the last 15:ok: repeats, failures, train to competency etc etc.

You could always use CHIRP if your still concerned:ok:

www.chirp.co.uk/ (http://www.pprune.org/www.chirp.co.uk/)

FYI

Less than 5% VCC used, with many surplus cabin crew being put on 2 hour standby EF and WW being put up in various hotels to crew the operation the next day:ok:

[Chigley]

ZILLI

I have been into work on all of the three waves of strikes. I have been in almost everyday as I am on EF. I have flown with full crew compliments, not yet flown with any VCC although I would be honoured to fly with like minded individuals who are merely trying to save their company from the destructive poisonous BASSA and it's supporters. I have even done a standby this week and was sent home as not required.

You are correct though in stating that there are so many unfamiliar faces in CRC and they are in fact VCC's and Pilots. But the fact they are there is purely because they are not required on flights as so many of us are turing up to work. :)

[Dixie Dean]

I would hardly call operating the flights with VC and pilots a bundle of laughs, and yes just like the steward who rang a radio station today to register his fear about flying with crew that did not know what they were doing and he was considering going on strike as he felt unsafe flying with VC, I know exactly what he means! I would not hope for any help in an emergency situation from any of them I am afraid.

Being a VCC and having just gone through the SEP training, I am a lot more recent than a CC who did they SEP refresher six months ago.

Dixie