British Airways vs. BASSA (Airline Staff Only) [Archive] - Page 19

TorC

5th Jun 2010, 08:57

I just want to tell you how worried I am about coming to work after the strike.
Some of the crew that are striking are completely blaming those that have worked for this mess. They are saying hateful things on their forum about how cc scabs and pilot scabs have ruined everything and if it wasn't for them every thing would be fine and they would have won.

It is really frightening to think that I may have to do a trip with these people and I am very scared.

I know that I have done the right thing by working but it does not stop me from being frightened by these crew.

I can't sleep for worry and I know it is the same for the strikers too.
The whole thing is a horrible mess.

I really hope that Mr. Walsh does send out a reasonable offer in the post with a choise to sign or go and all of this ends.

Betty girl, you are not alone in the ways that you feel. I and many of my friends also are very worried about the return of the strikers.

In an ideal world, they will finish the strikes, return to work and perform in a manner that sets-out to prove that they are what they keep telling us .... normal, compassionate, everyday people, with kids, mortgages etc, and apparently the best CC in the world.

Sadly, we know from the months prior to the strikes that many of them don't actually have the capacity for this .... they will stomp around, blaming and bad-mouthing anyone and anything. They'll moan about the smallest things, cause a difficult atmosphere and do their best to upset everyone. I wouldn't mind so much if it was possible to ever have a calm, adult conversation with any of them about what they are doing. But in all the time this has been going-on that has just not happened.

I think all of us are looking to BA to sort this out before it even happens. But unfortunately, other than reiterating the B&H instructions there is very little BA can do as they can't accuse anyone of anything prior to it actually happening. What rests on our shoulders, as individuals, is to be sure to report anything that is out of order. If it happens in the briefing, go to the DOMs straight away. If it happens onboard, go to the Captain. If it happens downroute, go either to the Captain or call the DOMs.

It's tempting to just let something pass, but I've done that in the past and then realised that what was visited upon me by one individual would probably be inflicted on others because I did nothing about it.

Make sure to have contact numbers in your mobile .... your manager, the DOMs, the Safecall number.

But most of all Betty girl, come into work knowing that you are part of the vast majority, have nothing to prove and that anyone indulging in unacceptable behaviour is only digging a very deep hole for themselves.

There are many crew discussing just these issues over at mypccc.co.uk. You will not be alone.

Take care.

Stiffco

5th Jun 2010, 09:34

Betty girl
I really hope that Mr. Walsh does send out a reasonable offer in the post with a choise to sign or go and all of this ends.

I was under the impression that is exactly what he had done already ... or am I mistaken? :confused: ... but it wasn't in the post!

stormin norman

5th Jun 2010, 09:46

Has anyone seen the chairman of BA since all this began ?

A bit of leadership from the top is well amiss at the moment.

Betty girl

5th Jun 2010, 10:00

Stiffco,
Yes he has but I actually want him to send out new contracts, similar to his offer and give all crew 90 days to sign or leave.
Most crew working will sign and alot of striking crew will sign it. The hardened millitants that are so scary will hopefully not sign it and go. By the time their unfair dismissals come to court a year or so will have passed by then, I hope.

Obviously I would have rather BASSA had been reasonable and negotiated when they had the chance but that has not happened.

Now it is getting really nasty and working crew like me and pilots working as crew are having very nasty posts put on Crew Forum about us and I for one do not want to have to work with these people who are ruining our airline.

ChicoG

5th Jun 2010, 10:02

Has anyone seen the chairman of BA since all this began ?

He's probably busy trying to find a new manager for his football team.

anything

5th Jun 2010, 10:06

I think there is plenty of leadership from the top by a certain WW. What else do you want?
Why do BASSA constantly want WW out of the way, and then 5 minutes later moan that he is not talking to them directly. How pleased were they a few days ago that some reps were allowed in on the discussions ( according to DH) but the chants are still "Willie Out".
The BA plan to combat the strike and the whole financial plan to save the airline is board driven, personnel changes will not make any difference.
The whole idea of "it will be all right if Willie goes" and "we would be winning if it wasn't for the scabs" is missing the whole point. This strike has failed because a union refused to negotiate, or even act in a reasonable manner.

ns68

5th Jun 2010, 10:16

Stop the arguing over percentages! The fact is that BASSA have been unable to ground BA. 60% or 70% of flights operating shows how huge BASSA's failure is.

And as for being the world's best crew - well, a good chance of that on strike days!

For the short-sighted yes..most definitely Unite has failed..For the once who can see the destroying effects that this strike has brought, the strike wasn't exactly a big unite failure and it has grounded the airline in the sense that It is not the same airline. We now have volonteers working as crew-with no agreements just doing it for the fun and the experience(have been told some of these people didn't make it as cabin crew in the interview so i wonder what has changed..)pilots working as crew,all the rules have changed.When I joined you could only have 1 person with less than 6 months experience,now you can go with half of the people on their first flight-let alone 6 months- as long as you go to show you can.It is a very dangerous game!

I think there is plenty of leadership from the top by a certain WW. What else do you want?

People I know,have repeatedly said how they will not invest in this company until Willie Walsh is the CEO for this reason.
Cabin crew that are not cabin crew??!-

A threat of 3 strike in 5 years.

Mega losses even after mega cuttings (in various dept and onboard which as I said before is the reason behind the departure of a massive number of business pax in my opinion)

NO 24h helpdesk..if you lose your booking or need any assistance it has to be monday to friday 8-20) .

Enormous rewards and wages for the people at the top.

a request to work for free in July.

Charges over for price fixing.

All the infos they fed about us to the papers before the strike,claims that we were all a bit useless and would call in sick for any reason(I for once was quite upset by those reports as I have been sick twice in 6 years-3 days in all- and I have never earnt 30000!!) Have people forgotten about that?How we were portrayed,and not once the company -who you are all praising on this forum- went out defending us and giving a better explanation of our t&c- not once.

Let's not talk about openskies..a laughing matter alltogether.And if you remember management words, openskies should have been something that would have made us competitive. When? Where? -When on an AMS link,you would always be parked next to one,wondering what was going on and dispatcher was always quite embarassed to tell us the loads-

Let's not go into the T5 opening.They wanted to make such a big opening on the day,that didn't even worry about being ready or listening to employees,they just did it. And we lost a lot of passengers through that fiasco.Some people never returned.

Anyway to go back to the point..strike consequences might not be obvious today,but we all know it has had a massive impact for the future. Like everything else the management will just worry about today-and that is a very good PR move..to say how smoothly the operation is running..but as insiders we should know better.

screwdriver

5th Jun 2010, 10:18

dave 3

On the Green front how many empty aircraft are being launched into the sky to play this blinder?

What do you mean by empty? The BASSA definition of completely empty planes being flown in circuits around LHR, having buzzed BFC "at full throttle"
or
Aircraft full of freight being dispatched to those destinations where there are pax and freight waiting for collection?

:ugh:

Juan Tugoh

5th Jun 2010, 10:30

strike consequences might not be obvious today,but we all know it has had a massive impact for the future

So congratulations, according to your view, UNITE have permanently damaged BA, the company that pays your wages, all over the CSD doing a little bit more and no loss of earnings for any CC. I'm really not sure what point you are making except that UNITE have failed to achieve anything other than worse T&Cs for the CC and have damaged the company that they say the CC are very proud of and love working for. Well done UNITE. I guess your own logic must now demand that you cease to support the cancer that is BASSA and get back to work.

Hotel Mode

5th Jun 2010, 10:31

So Holley promised 50 but only managed 45. Sounds like the Unite leadership are starting to give up on BASSA.

BASSA > Latest News

GOOD MORNING
Jun 5th, 2010 by admin

Good morning...

The final phase of our dispute commenced at midnight last night and will run until midnight, Wednesday.

It is regrettable that no solution has been found to stop this going ahead; so it is therefore absolutely vital that we strongly maintain the last part of our dispute, as this will have a significant impact on setting the tone of any future settlement.

There has been only meeting that has occurred during the current dispute and this happened last Wednesday; although that meeting was positive insofar as it was the first opportunity to meet directly with Mr. Walsh in the entirety of these discussions, a solution was still unable to be found.

After that meeting adjourned, Unite has received no further approach to meet from either ACAS or British Airways and so no subsequent discussions have therefore been possible.

There is good news as General Secretary, Tony Woodley has confirmed that our strike pay has now been increased, with the addition of a further £15 hardship payment, meaning that all members will now receive £45 for every day that pay is deducted because of taking industrial action.

Additionally, work to secure hardship loans is almost concluded and it is hoped that this will provide access to a special thousand pounds loan. Unite is in the process of finalising this through the union’s banks and there will be an easy, on line application and will be at a special interest rate. BASSA will act as the guarantor for our members who need this loan.

Today is sunny, it’s Saturday and Billy Bragg, who has released 15 chart albums over nearly 30 years, is coming along to offer his support and play some songs for us at Bedfont. This is a fantastic gesture by him and our thanks go to Louise Holley for organising that and for Billy’s good heart for agreeing to come along.

...We need a big crowd to repay that kindness, so please come along to Bedfont today, we need you!

All disputes have to end and a solution has to be reached; each person that has either taken strike action or gone into work will have helped shape what that is, for better or for worse.

Think about this, every person that breaks the strike weakens the union’s position and strengthens Mr. Walsh’s resolve, ultimately worsening any deal he is prepared to offer; the irony is that those people who ignore the call to strike get that same deal - there will not somehow, be a better one for them.

How do they expect their union to be able to somehow miraculously get a good deal and protect their jobs, when they have played no part in helping to do that - in fact the exact opposite? They have simply strengthened Mr. Walsh’s view that he does not need to reach fair agreements, he can impose and a lot of people will just roll over and accept that.

For those that won’t, thank you and see you at Bedfont...

Human Factor

5th Jun 2010, 10:35

Whilst we're on figures. 1500 at bedfont wasnt it? Dont think so.

1500 was spot on. All four of them turned up at exactly that time. :ok:

Rat25

5th Jun 2010, 10:43

Yes he was in T5 last week and was also down in CRC

ns68

5th Jun 2010, 10:47

So congratulations, according to your view, UNITE have permanently damaged BA, the company that pays your wages, all over the CSD doing a little bit more and no loss of earnings for any CC. I'm really not sure what point you are making except that UNITE have failed to achieve anything other than worse T&Cs for the CC and have damaged the company that they say the CC are very proud of and love working for. Well done UNITE. I guess your own logic must now demand that you cease to support the cancer that is BASSA and get back to work

I don't think it was intentional, I think Unite just wanted to get a better deal for us,but the 2 parties just didn't come to it. It's a big shame. Juan,are you crew? Because as crew,I hope that at least we agree that the changes were not about the CSD working more.Come on,we know better than that. You know what it has meant removing the purser on Eurofleet 767s and 757s right? NOT 1 less crewmember but less chance of promotion,etc etc..If you are already a purser or csd I bet this would not touch you that much but for maincrew:uhoh:

Tiramisu

5th Jun 2010, 11:43

Dear colleague

I am writing to tell you some important news on our package of changes in IFCE.

I would urge you to take the time to read this message because it sets out the facts about the progress we are making and offers new opportunities for you.

What this means for you
Firstly, I want to be really clear about a number of things that I know are important to you.

The changes I have announced will not change your individual contractual terms and conditions and continue to offer you a package that is among the best in the industry by some way. Yes, there are sacrifices to be made. We can’t simply turn a blind eye to the crisis we face. Everyone in British Airways is being asked to play a part in securing the future of our business.

My plan will ensure we offer a premium service to our customers, deliver £127m of cost savings through the voluntary reduction of the equivalent of 1700 full time crew and offer a range of opportunities to you.

Voluntary redundancy and part time for everyone who wants it
More than 43 per cent of you have chosen to register for one of the voluntary options made possible by our reduced crew complements onboard. I have given voluntary redundancy to everyone who has registered for it – that’s more than 1,000 of you – and, by March 2011, I will offer a part time contract to all 5,594 of you who want to reduce your hours. This includes a new 33 per cent arrangement.

Transfers and promotions
I know that more than 2,000 of you at Heathrow would like to transfer fleets or take up one of the new opportunities for temporary and permanent promotions to CSD. I will work through these requests soon as possible, subject to the demands of our flying schedule.

No cut in pay
I am not asking any of you to take a pay cut and you will not lose any of your existing allowances. While the plan does include a base pay freeze until March 2011, around 75 per cent of you will still receive two increment increases, worth between two and seven per cent for 2009 and then a further increment also worth between two and seven per cent for 2010.

What’s new
When Willie met with Unite leaders last Monday, 19 October, he agreed to accept Unite’s request for us to talk with them about this plan and to consider any alternative proposal they may have to new fleet. In a genuine attempt to reach agreement, we added to our package an offer which includes a new monthly travel payment, proposed changes to the disruption agreement and our proposed new redeployment arrangement that would protect our commitment to avoid compulsory redundancy whenever we can. You can scroll down and see the package.

Reassurance on variable pay and allowances
My plan to recruit new Heathrow cabin crew on different contracts flying on a separate fleet, means I can drop the things you told me you didn’t like such as reducing time down-route or reducing your time off.

I know some of you were concerned that a separate fleet of new crew would impact on your variable pay and allowances and you wanted some reassurances from me.

I am really pleased to be able to offer you that reassurance with a fixed monthly travel payment, which would replace the variable pay which you receive now when you are on flying duties. You would still receive your existing meal allowances.

This has been offered to Unite to consider as a suggested way forward.

Putting customers first
We must put our customers first in times of disruption - the new changes we have proposed would do this, have a minimal impact on you and you would keep the extra payments you get.

There would be no change to the definition of disruption, no change to your duty day disruption payments and you would still get home and return to your roster as soon as possible.

A way forward
The changes I am proposing hold firm to my principle of minimising the impact on you as current crew and show that I have listened to what matters to you.

I look forward to us moving forward and in the meantime thank you for your continued professionalism and service to our customers and their safety.

Regards

Bill Francis
Head of IFCE

The Package Offer made to Unite on Monday 19 October 2009, in brief

Current Cabin Crew
* No change to terms & conditions for current Cabin Crew
* Protection of current earning potential through offer of fixed monthly travel payment excluding meals, instead of current variable pay (based on last years schedule)
World Wide CSD = £9,676 pa
World Wide Purser = £9,258 pa
World Wide Main Crew = £8,085 pa
Eurofleet CSD = £2,470 pa
Eurofleet Purser = £2,470 pa
Eurofleet Main Crew = £2,266 pa
* Crew complement changes:
1 Purser off (service covered by working CSD)
Extra Crew member removed from 12 destinations (currently operates 1 over complement)
Eurofleet aligned with Gatwick complements
* Revised World Wide disruption agreement
Put the customer needs first during disruption
Management decision to apply agreement, and Trade Union advised of the use of the agreement
No change to duty day disruption payments to Crew (CSD £260, Purser £230, Main Crew £200)
Review application of disruption agreement on monthly basis with Trade Union
Minimise impact on Crew (get home ASAP and return to roster ASAP)
* Voluntary redundancy available.
1,011 colleagues accepted.
* Part-time working offered to all.
5,076 colleagues registered interest
Anticipate all will be accepted in phases between now and March 2011.
616 colleagues confirmed acceptance of new part time contract to date
518 colleagues registered for new 33% contract
* Cabin Crew transfers between LHR fleets
2,313 colleagues registered interest in transferring. Subject to grade mix, as many as possible will be accepted.
* Promotion opportunities – first since 2006.
444 World Wide Pursers registered to work up as temporary CSD.
Further permanent opportunities available in new year for approximately 120 colleagues.

New Cabin Crew
* Competitive terms and conditions for new entrants (10% above market average).

New share scheme and new travel ticket
* Additional 100% staff bookable concession for colleague and travel partners, based on company performance in 2009/10.
* Company performance share scheme – 2010 – 2013.

Redundancy
* Maintain commitment to avoid compulsory redundancy where possible

Working with the Trade Unions
* Agreement on working constructively with Trade Unions to avoid future conflict
* Agreement on Trade Union structures and facilities enabling a modern relationship.

New redeployment arrangements agreed and recommended by Trade Union National Officers (August 2009)
* Surplus colleagues given 52 weeks to find a new role
* Surplus colleagues given preferential access to job vacancies
* Pay protection run down over 52 weeks for those redeployed
*Pension protection during last 5 years before retirement for redeployees
* Voluntary buy-out of existing Personal Differentials

Pay
75% of Cabin Crew (10,255) are not at top of the incremental pay scale and will continue to receive incremental increases of;
* Between 2% - 7% in 2009 plus
* Between 2% - 7% in 2010.

Employment Policies
Negotiations have yet to be finalised on changes to employment policies.

Posted with permission

wilsr

5th Jun 2010, 11:47

>>Now it is getting really nasty and working crew like me and pilots working as crew are having very nasty posts put on Crew Forum about us and I for one do not want to have to work with these people who are ruining our airline.<<

This has always been at the bottom of the problem in BA: the vast majority of pleasant and professional cabin crew with a percentage of individuals who manage to poison the relationship which should apply - and does in most other airlines. Betty is right - if they are allowed back after the strike ends - assuming there's a job to go back to - the Cabin Crew empire will again be separate from, and antagonistic to, flight operations.

Chuchinchow

5th Jun 2010, 11:50

Because as crew,I hope that at least we agree that the changes were not about the CSD working more.

No.

We most certainly do not. Stop trying to rewrite history.

mrpony

5th Jun 2010, 11:58

People I know,have repeatedly said how they will not invest in this company until Willie Walsh is the CEO for this reason.

Please clarify - do you mean whilst instead of until in the above?

If so, could you tell us which people and how many times they have repeated this to you please. It seems like such a strange thing to say......and then to repeat it..............?

Tiramisu

5th Jun 2010, 12:01

Dear Vertigowerty,
You're welcome and hope to see you soon, too.:)
The problem with some crew is as we all know they are to quick to press the delete button and they then question they never had the offer in the first place!:ugh:

(PS:Boondocker, Ididn't mean you btw)

DutchStar

5th Jun 2010, 12:35

Duncan wrote in his blog day 17 :
"BA were ringing people up today and offering them GBP100 and the trip of their choice to come to work - hardly the actions of an airline coping well with the situation"

Well, I had my 2-hour sby changed to QRS and after 3 days at the hotel I was not used! :confused:
I even thought he might be talking about EF, but I know there is airport sby for EF crew and some people are not being used either...

ottergirl

5th Jun 2010, 12:51

No.

We most certainly do not. Stop trying to rewrite history.

Because as crew,I hope that at least we agree that the changes were not about the CSD working more.Come on,we know better than that. You know what it has meant removing the purser on Eurofleet 767s and 757s right? NOT 1 less crewmember but less chance of promotion,etc etc..If you are already a purser or csd I bet this would not touch you that much but for maincrewhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

ns68 is correct. On Eurofleet the dispute was not about the CSD working more, it was about everyone working more. Eurofleet CSD's have ALWAYS worked on a trolley and, short of having a broom surgically implanted, are already very efficient in the cabin. It is also true that removing the Purser from the Boeing will have a temporary affect on promotions but, only until the last Boeing leaves Eurofleet. ns68, once it is a solely Airbus fleet (and we are not talking long here) we will need a lot more Pursers so no need to worry about that. If you want to be a CSD then you will have to go to long-haul but the writing has been on that wall for a long time.

“The postings on this site are my own and don’t necessarily represent British Airways’ positions, strategies or opinions.”

HiFlyer14

5th Jun 2010, 12:58

It is not the same airline.

You're absolutely right, NS68 it is not. We are now very much a fantastic team, with a can-do approach, a high-level of commitment, very high uniform standards and a huge smile on our faces. Many of us are also wearing "Backing BA Lanyards". If/when you walk back in next week then it will seem very strange to you. The bar has been set - and I'm afraid you strikers are going to stand out a mile if you don't live up to it. Remember: It's very easy to walk out on something. It ain't always so easy to walk back in.:hmm:

Bettygirl has highlighted what is now a very real concern for many non-strikers. Of course there is a very easy solution to it (and posts on here imply this is being considered): Offer a take it or leave it deal to each and every one of us. The deal does not have to include 184 crew back on - because 80% of us have shown we don't want it and it is just an additional cost. The 2 year pay deal seems to be widely accepted by most, as does the pay freeze.

In lieu of the 184 crew, it could have the previous share scheme/bonus/extra ticket if it is signed before Wednesday (last strike day). Otherwise post-strike, it could be without those extras. That way all non-strikers will get a good deal and strikers make their own decisions.:ok:

Oh, and one other thing, lest I forget.;) BA could ballot each and every one of us and see whether we want BASSA to remain, or if we would prefer a more democratic, professional way of doing things such as the Professional Cabin Crew Council - www.mypccc.co.uk (http://www.mypccc.co.uk).

Then we can all carry on with this new way of doing things, in a more productive, motivated and highly professional manner. The rest of them can eat samosas with DH til the cows come home.:)

I'm off to work now. But don't worry strikers, it'll only be me there single-handledly manning the entire BA operation of empty airplanes.:p

This is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

Betty girl

5th Jun 2010, 13:23

Can anyone tell me where you get these 'I'm backing BA' lanyards from.
I would like to wear one.

TorC

5th Jun 2010, 13:27

Can anyone tell me where you get these 'I'm backing BA' lanyards from.
I would like to wear one.

Go to any of the Crew Managers and ask. They are more than happy to hand them out. I wear mine everyday now and will continue to do so after the 9th.

Betty girl

5th Jun 2010, 13:38

Thanks TorC,
I will ask mine when I am next in.

Dixie Dean

5th Jun 2010, 14:18

nurjio

5th Jun 2010, 14:48

..to deal with this, at a tactical level, there will have to be some fairly robust leadership, ascribing zero tolerance.

I believe, that leadership, will have come from the Captain and the SCCM.

nurj

giza

5th Jun 2010, 15:42

post 4565 "BA have played a blinder?...... would negotiation not have been a better blinder for BA to play?.... How much money is this blinder costing? On the Green front how many empty aircraft are being launched into the sky to play this blinder?"

Dave 3, do you not know that BA tried negotiating for 14 months, and got only "NO - now what was the question again"

I agree that BASSA should have tried negotiation, for a change, you never know if they had actually listened, they may have heard something they liked.

I`m Backin BA :ok: (again tomorrow)

giza

5th Jun 2010, 16:06

ns68

5th Jun 2010, 16:18

You mention, again, the opening of T5 as evidence of the poor management in BA which has led us to this point. Perhaps you know more about it than I do, but my understanding is that most of the issues we had in the first few days were actually the responsibility of the BAA. It's easy to point the finger and say 'WW is terrible, look what happened', but in fact the real picture is somewhat more complicated.

Well,he was the first one taking the responsibility for it. So,I guess he knew something wasn't quite right.
The switching of all flights was purely down to management.We all suggested a more progressive approach due to the little training we recevied as well as a possibility that the systems wouldn' t have worked as well as they should but we were completely ignored.based on that yes,I do think poor management and a bit of arrogance in knowin' it all.
On a technical point and I can only speak for myself here and my job,do you remember the first week or two? All jettys were never working?it was taking ages for one to be attached or moved.That led to delays in disembarking. I was there and I remember dispatchers saying that they weren't used to that system and that it would have taken a while to become confident.To you it might be a little thing,to somebody losing their connection,it might have mattered a bit more.
Check-in was particularly slow I remember and bags were going with manual receipt tag. It was all a new system and I remember having a chat to one of the ground staff who said soething on the line of..""I have been working for the company for 10 years and it feels like the first day"" I value experience and it was a shame to hear that.We just had not been trained.It's serious. And ultimately us. 2h walk in T5-when it wasn't even finished- didn't do much for me.As much as I wanted to take in,you couldn't because the building was half done.Any question from passenger I was always re-directing them to the people with the violet shirts(do you remember?)
If you think that made us look good and professional in the eyes of our customers and that it was a good management move I can't change your opinion but that's the way I feel.

Saying this Spin doctor, I now love T5!:ok:

Doh Nuts

5th Jun 2010, 16:31

A few stories emerging of VCC getting hassle off CC while operating during the strike period. It would appear a number of pro BASSA CC have crossed the picket line due to financial reasons and are anti VCC.Hello - long time reader, first time poster here and as a ground VCC, there's been anti-VCC sentiment throughout the whole period, with some VCC being more unfortunate than others. Having said that, I've been incredibly lucky with my crews so far and thank you for all the professionalism I've encountered and fantastic team work. Whether it's been non-striking crew, crew who have said they don't agree with what VCC are doing but we are one team on board or crew who have or will be going on strike, I've encountered the kind of dedication to our customers that make me proud of the majority of our cabin crew.

Both the pilot volunteers and the operating flight deck have all been supportive and I hope that this dispute will be over soon.

My main concerns have been how sick with worry non-striking crew have been at encountering strikers, which is sad. As others on this site have mentioned before, we respect their right to strike - it would be good for people who choose to work not to worry about any sort of retribution from their colleagues from what appears to be a minority.

It's been eye-opening to be a VCC and I can honestly say that I had no idea just how much the job entailed before doing it, and while I might agree that it isn't rocket science, it is hard work and it is tiring and I don't envy the lifestyle.

Anyway, thank you to the fantastic crew who have been operating with us VCC - I hope I get another brilliant lot next trip but am steeling myself for the worst, as always... I have no idea how this will end but it can't go on indefinitely as our customers don't have endless patience, in my opinion.

Sorry for the long post but I just wanted to say thank you to the crews I've flown with and to the customers who are staying with us during this difficult time. I know VCCs are an easy target to blame for people who believe in the strike but a view from my side is that, having been to the colleague forums, I honestly don't think that Willie offered a bad deal or would have simply caved on this matter, and VCCs help expand the flying programme and help to keep the goodwill of our customers, so that by the time this dispute is over, perhaps we'll still have some customers willing to fly with us.

And as to the comments about who's doing our jobs while we're flying... I can't speak for everyone but some of us are maintaining both roles. Am I worried about my job? Yes, but not because of my absence highlighting the lack of necessity of my job. I'm worried because I don't think an airline which has such a bad track record for strikes can be a viable option for customers in the future. As for my role, my department has made so many voluntary redundancies in response to the downturn, I honestly don't think we can get rid of many more. A large number of us took unpaid leave and I think that period demonstrated that we would really struggle with any further reductions. Having said that, I think we're all steeling ourselves for the possibility of a request for further periods of unpaid leave/work in response to this strike. Hopefully it won't happen and hopefully this will all come to an end sooner rather than later.

These views are all mine and not my employer's

ns68

5th Jun 2010, 16:34

Mega losses even after mega cuttings (in various dept and onboard which as I said before is the reason behind the departure of a massive number of business pax in my opinion)

(a) If the cuts had not been made they would have been mega mega losses, premier pax stop flying with ust because the companies they work for are feeling the effects and would not pay the rates, thats why.

YES,I understand cutting.. but WHAT ABOUT THE RIGHT CUTS?People in our club europe cabin were not getting much more than our eurotraveller pax.There were couple of little touches that justified booking in club.That was a larger seat/a full tray/ hot towels /maybe a pack of macadamia nuts if not hungry..We do not have a single thing out of those four.Do you know how many times I have been told, ""Business club-that s how they call it-it is not worth it anymore""..And as I have said,I think a lot of passengers decided to move away from us.There is a lot apologising onboard.Are you crew? Once again.it is my experience and my view.

Enormous rewards and wages for the people at the top.

(b) Most of the directors declined their bonuses this year, no bonuses paid to senior amd middle management for the last two years

I am referring to the latest news.Not that it matters that much,being only shares and not actual money,but still a bad move considering we are fighting to survive.

a request to work for free in July.

(c) A voluntery request, a lot of people took this up on their own free will to help (me included)

yes,I know somebody that did it.they left their allowances for the month in an attempt to help the company,and then as soon as we go on strike,the company says how they have got a reserve of cash to take them through the strike.
I admired his will to help..but it is a bit of a kick in your teeth..

Charges over for price fixing.

(d) Case thrown out of court, £121 M fine not paid (which is handy, as it will pay for the strike.

I know that,I also know that we paid charges in the US though.So it wasn't really for free.

Hotel Mode

5th Jun 2010, 16:36

Isnt that just a list of BAAs failings? Jetties, Baggage system, signposting etc etc. Willie took responsibility because it was the right thing to do, not because it was all his fault. (as an aside has Lizanne accepted responsibility for ballsing up the first ballot yet?)

What we'd all like to know is how this relates to BA needing to get its cost base to somewhere near the level of the competition, and how it justifies the strike.

Caribbean Boy

5th Jun 2010, 16:37

dave3 (http://www.pprune.org/members/327511-dave3) wrote:
If real crew are all turning up for work and operation is above the one BA forcast why are BA still using wet lease aircraft and crew and why is there still a need for volunteers?Of course, not all crew have turned up for work and there is a reduced schedule in place which has to be maintained or increased if possible.

I thought I'd pass on some information on what's happening at T3, which is rather the forgotten man at BA's LHR operation.

There was a pre-strike schedule of 23 daily flights to six European destinations, namely HEL, VIE, BCN, MAD, AGP and LIS. Up to yesterday, BA cancelled all 23 flights but got six wetlease carriers to operate 16 flights a day. Every destination got at least 50% of the pre-strike schedule.

Today, the situation could hardly be more different. BA is operating 14 flights with its own metal and has just one wetlease flight.

I think this shows that BA is winning the battle to increase SH flights.

Hotel Mode

5th Jun 2010, 16:39

YES,I understand cutting.. but WHAT ABOUT THE RIGHT CUTS?People in our club europe cabin were not getting much more than our eurotraveller pax.There were couple of little touches that justified booking in club.

Understood. But these cuts dont exist in isolation. Part of the reason BAs product has deteriorated is because IFCE costs too much. BA couldnt cut staff/pay so it goes in product instead.

suninmyeyes

5th Jun 2010, 16:49

NS68

I see little point in you going on about the problems concerning the opening of Terminal 5.

I believe it cost BA about 15 million pounds. That's about the same cost as 2 days of striking. Taking it proportionally you ought to be utterly appalled at the the cost of 20 days of pointless striking by your militant colleagues.

Terminal 5 got its reputation back fairly quickly. Do you think the same will apply to the cabin crew's reputation? Shame the strikers have wrecked it for all the hard working cabin crew who are backing BA and facing backlash from the public and the rest of the airline.

Caribbean Boy

5th Jun 2010, 16:56

Tiramisu (http://www.pprune.org/members/313942-tiramisu),

Thanks for posting this offer by BF. As it's been noted, mainly by HighFlyer14, the new share scheme and new travel ticket are no longer available. Indeed, they do appear to have been offered for just a brief period of time. If I were CC, I won't be happy to see subsequent offers to get worse.

ns68

5th Jun 2010, 17:17

NS68

I see little point in you going on about the problems concerning the opening of Terminal 5.

I believe it cost BA about 15 million pounds. That's about the same cost as 2 days of striking. Taking it proportionally you ought to be utterly appalled at the the cost of 20 days of pointless striking by your militant colleagues.

taken out of context,I agree,it s pointless! My post included the mentioning of T5 purely as an example of things that made the company lose credibility..it was a bit more complex than that.

But as I said..it doesn't matter too much when it's out context-the context was about WW LEADERSHIP if you go back couple of pages.It was just to say that management should work with its employes not against them.

midman

5th Jun 2010, 17:24

But as I said..it doesn't matter too much when it's out context-the context was about WW LEADERSHIP if you go back couple of pages.It was just to say that management should work with its employes not against them.
The leadership has worked with its employees - there are 35000 employees that the leadership has worked with to achieve long term savings that allow the company to be fit for the next few years.

One group of employees has failed to recognise the need for change (temporary solution for a temporary problem), and it has failed to work with the company to negotiate that change. (see the judgement in the failed injunction by Unite).

What could you expect the company to do?

Betty girl

5th Jun 2010, 17:27

Doh Nuts,

Thank you for your really nice post. You sound like a really great person. I just want you to know that I think you all are doing a great job. As I am on eurofleet and not so many vols needed there, I have not had the chance to fly with any of you, but I would be very happy to.

I hope you have been to some nice places and enjoyed yourself.

It's nice of you to note how hard the job is sometimes. It is a total lifestyle being a crew member, particularily for the longhaul crew. Lots of jetlag, often up all night and no controle over when you get days off. It is good that you have been able to experience it.

Many thanks once again.:D

JWFI

5th Jun 2010, 17:31

Have CC from the latest round of strikes (starting two weeks ago) been informed that staff travel has been revoked, if so how and when from please ?

Stiffco

5th Jun 2010, 18:02

ns68 wrote

[quote]People I know,have repeatedly said how they will not invest in this company until Willie Walsh is the CEO for this reason.
Cabin crew that are not cabin crew??!-/QUOTE]

I understand that the VCC have completed the training that any new starter would undergo and as such are cc, albeit in a part time role.

Remember:
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck ...

No direct comparison intended :)

Wirbelsturm

5th Jun 2010, 18:26

Caribbean Boy

5th Jun 2010, 18:34

From Duncan Holley (thanks to Hotel Mode (http://www.pprune.org/members/9814-hotel-mode)):
How do they expect their union to be able to somehow miraculously get a good deal and protect their jobs, when they have played no part in helping to do that - in fact the exact opposite?So, cabin crew are striking to protect their jobs?

I thought it was about imposition.
Or ST.
Or disciplinaries.

I hope that DH will explain it all in his next four missives.

Hotel Mode

5th Jun 2010, 18:38

Heres the next!

Only 300! thats pretty bad. And closing pickets... How considerate.:rolleyes:

I dont think theyve compared themselves to Tiananmen Square before, another depth plummed. Good work.

BASSA > Latest News

POWER IN THE UNION - DAY 18
Jun 5th, 2010 by admin

Just back from Glastonfont where I witnessed something I thought I would never see. Billy Bragg playing acoustic guitar from the back of a pick up truck conducting 300 or so striking cabin to sing along and using hand actions to a song about 3rd World debt. Billy made the 300 mile trip from his Dorset home (leaving his kids on the beach) to play a rousing hour set of songs with loads of relevant in between chat. It was incredibly heartening and memorable. I will let others who were there describe it in better detail but it was truly a historic occasion something which Billy recognised. As soon as he arrived he gave me his personal iPhone and asked if I would take photos of his gig as he was so proud to be here and wanted to put the photos on his website this evening. I would like to thank Louise, my wife for organising his visit. It was quite a nerve-wracking experience especially when half an hour before Billy turned up, Bedfont told us they had no music licence and we would have to cancel. Fortunately they relented when we said he was only bringing an acoustic guitar. Phew!

After Thursday’s record crowd it was a quieter more relaxed day with picnics and tapas the order of the day. We closed the pickets for Billy’s performance - it was about time we gave the fire and police station a bit of down time!

As I type, I have yet to water my tomatoes and I am actually going out this evening so haven’t been able to spend much time composing this piece, apologies if it is below par. I will be there tomorrow, so will the bouncy castle and the open-top bus. We are in the home straight - let’s finish these next 4 days on a high. Before I go, however I would like to get one thing off my chest.

Going on strike is a big decision for everyone, mainly because there are so many reasons not to, whether it be money, fear, staff travel or even loyalty to the company. While I don’t like to single out any rank I would like to mention the many CSDs who have refused to turn up for work during this dispute. Seeing a group of them at Bedfont last week, all of whom had been flying more than 30 years and all of whom were regarded by BA and crew alike as “model leaders” it suddenly struck me at how much BA had let these once loyal people down. These well-respected senior crew were turning their backs on 30 years (or in the case of one I spoke to today 41 years) of dedicated service and withdrawing their labour because of what one person - a man only with the BA 5 years - is systematically and brutally doing to their airline.

If only other senior crew members who have turned their back on their colleagues had similar bravery. It also appears now, from report backs that some CSDs who have gone to work have not only shown a complete lack of integrity but, even worse, are actually encouraging crew to break the strike and leave the Union. If either on duty or off duty a CSD tries to encourage you to leave BASSA/UNITE please tell him or her that you do not wish to discuss it - if they persist inform them that you find their behaviour to be bullying and take their name and staff number and report them to your manager. They have no right to interfere in your right to belong to a union and take lawful industrial action. These people are nothing more than cowards looking to justify their shameful actions.

Sorry, this has got a little heavy, but it needed to be said. If you are not a CSD forgive me, because I know you have all made the ultimate gesture to support your union but as we all know, just as a CSD can make or break a trip so they can make or break a strike.

So, as I said above just four days to go now - if you are feeling weary I know how you feel, but let me leave you with this. It was on June 5th 1989 - 21 years ago today - when the anonymous protester stood defiantly in front of all those Chinese tanks with his flag, continually stepping sideways so they could not pass. No one ever tracked him down and indeed he may not have survived, but that was one brave protest and one that has inspired me ever since. Bedfont is not Tiananmen Square but Walsh’s BA would surely be more at home in late 80s China.

See you tomorrow - free breakfasts again before 10am.

All the best and remember one line from Billy’s song - “there’s power in the union”.

Duncan

christmaslights

5th Jun 2010, 18:50

It was just to say that management should work with its employes not against them.

NS68

you are right, but for that to happen the goodwill has to be there from both sides. If there is one thing I gathered from reading this forum is the lack of trust towards the management from cc. Some posts even imply that some cc don't even read the mail from BA. That's definitely not the attitude of someone that wants to work with their company.

28L

5th Jun 2010, 18:50

How offensive can you get when our guys are getting killed and maimed in Afghanistan?

seats4takeoff

5th Jun 2010, 18:57

Backing BA and dam proud of it ... :ok: doing the job I joined for 15 years ago ...

There are NO locks on the door !!!

Caribbean Boy

5th Jun 2010, 20:03

Strikers having fun at Bedfont Football Club.
Oh what a lovely strike: As travellers suffer, Pimm's, comedians and barbecues on the picket line... | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284112/Oh-lovely-strike-As-travellers-suffer-Pimms-comedians-barbecues-picket-line-.html)

harrypic

5th Jun 2010, 21:30

And strikers wonder why they have no public support - whilst holidaymakers and business people suffer they sit in the sun, drinking Pimms and beer, listening to Billy Bragg in a Carnival Atmosphere - even the picket lines were cancelled during Billy's performance. It's a farce and they should be ashamed. They wonder why WW doesn't take them seriously.......

Meanwhile DS and TW continue the hardline 70's union rhetoric over their hard done by brothers and sisters......as hard line unionists they must be holding their heads in their hands and sighing profusely in shame at where BASSA have taken them....never saw BBQ's and Pimms during the miners strike....or Rover, or the Liverpool dockers etc etc.

It beggars belief....

ottergirl

5th Jun 2010, 21:46

never saw BBQ's and Pimms during the miners strike.... No but there was a hell of a lot of brick throwing, overturned cars, burned out buildings and running battles with the police. Him indoors was on the receiving end for several weeks! Pimms doesn't seem so radical now. So much to be grateful for!

A cabin crew strike was always going to be a bit more glamorous.:)

LD12986

5th Jun 2010, 22:08

Whilst DH and CC top up their tans at Bedfont, Tony Woodley's off to Cyprus (not on BA):

While BA cabin crew begin third 5-day strike, Unite boss Tony Woodley flies out for a luxury sunshine holiday | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284320/While-BA-cabin-crew-begin-5-day-strike-Unite-boss-Tony-Woodley-flies-luxury-sunshine-holiday.html)

harrypic

5th Jun 2010, 22:18

Ottergirl,

Thats exactly my point - you have the same aggresive 70's rhetoric from DS and TW as we had from Arthur during the miners strike, but Bassa are drinking Pimms and Beer and cancelling picket lines cos Billy Bragg turned up.....and fighting over just a travel perk and some disiplinaries, not the loss of their families livelyhood as the miners were.

Bassa have severly let down and embaraased Unite, a Union built on the working class and fighting for the working class, not on people drinking beer and Pimms on the picket lines treating it as a party, how would the miners, Rover and Liverpool Dockers feel about this, they put their livelyhood on the line in asking their Union to support them, not travel perks.........but Unite have to play because Bassa are a significant contributor to Unite funds.....

mastafreighter

5th Jun 2010, 22:37

Hiflyer14 said
"You're absolutely right, NS68 it is not. We are now very much a fantastic team, with a can-do approach, a high-level of commitment, very high uniform standards and a huge smile on our faces".

Have just flown back to LHR from LAS in Club World - the crew obviously deciding to a pan/woman to work through the last disruption. The food has definately been better and the inflight product was curtailed. HOWEVER, the crew, all of which were normal CC including CSD - not a VCC in sight - were incredible. From the walm greeting at the door and throughout the flight, they were the most attentive crew we have seen for a long time on BA - confirming everything Hiflyer14 says above. and I am neither BA or CC - just a full farepaying airline employee. I'll forego the product shortage to get that service everytime. Be proud of what you are offering against adversity!

My only complaint is the CSD/crew member reminding us of a 1981 one hit wonder (Joe Dolce) that left us all mentally singing that ridiculous song.

If Billy Bragg was at Bedfont yesterday, who is next? The Strawbs singing DH's anthem "You won't get me I'm part of the Union" or Status Quo giving a rendition of "Down down, deeper and down".

The flight was packed solid.

MF

Chesh01

6th Jun 2010, 00:01

I have been going through recents posts.. can anyone confim if the following quote is true from Giza...

Charges over for price fixing.

(d) Case thrown out of court, £121 M fine not paid (which is handy, as it will pay for the strike.

CSDY

6th Jun 2010, 05:11

Having read the latest BASSA ramblings from Bedfont it looks as though the blame game has started before the strike is over. Now it's the CSDs that went to work that are to blame for this abject failure of a dispute. He even has the gall to accuse them of intimidating people in to coming to work. Read the words of Mr Holley and make your own mind up on who's doing the intimidating. Day 19, what have BASSA achieved so far apart from the longest room party in living memory.

DeThirdDefect

6th Jun 2010, 05:55

Chesh01
I have been going through recents posts.. can anyone confim if the following quote is true from Giza...
Charges over for price fixing.
(d) Case thrown out of court, £121 M fine not paid (which is handy, as it will pay for the strike.
My understanding is that it's not entirely correct.
The criminal case against several BA employees was thrown out of court by the judge because of problems with some of the prosecution's evidence and it's non-disclosure to the defence.
Because of sub judice, the civil action against the company and imposition of any fine had to wait until the completion of the criminal case, but the OFT had said it would be asking the court to impose a penalty of £121.5m. At the time BA made provision in its accounts for a penalty of that size.
Now some of the evidence that the OFT had planned to present to the judge at the civil hearing has been found to be suspect.
From my understanding of what Willie said at one of the recent Waterside Theatre briefings, BA now expects the OFT to ask the judge to impose a penalty that's significantly smaller than £121.5m because of the loss of part of its evidence.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 09:16

This forum has become so nasty.. You seem to forget that you will all be working along side each other very soon.
I for one, as a striker am very afraid of the people who broke the strike.. most by the way who voted for strike action...
Crew who are now looking to play the higher role because they feel they Backed BA ... on a flight the other day, a non strike day, some one has gone in the bunks and emptied the oxy bottles in the crew bunk area... if you are reading this shame on you.
Lets get back to basics.. some have different views to others ,we are alowed that in a democracy... the crew who voted yes for strike action and then went into work have no right to call strikers...
Some of the strikers are very millitant but again some of the comments on this forum that go unchecked are shocking..
Again I say at the end of this we all must work together and crew who went into work are doing no one any favours when they are reporting every little raise of an eyebrow or look on a face... What ever the outcome.. we are all human beings with a common goal... we may not all have the same opinion....

ns68

6th Jun 2010, 09:37

In general business people don't book short haul club for the differences it brings on-board. The slight convienience of getting on last and off first are small plusses however not the main reason.

Ticket flexibility is the major reason for booking corporate club. That and lounge access. Not the 'hot meal' onboard or a pack of (no longer available ) macadamia nuts.

Ask almost any SH pax and they don't really care about the club flight for an hour or two.

LH is, obviously, totally different.

You can't possibly be crew!!or maybe you simply never worked as a Eurofleet crew member..
They DO want and they DO expect a better product,even on a 30 minutes Paris flight.It's not very wise to generalise like that. If only you could see it with your eyes you wouldn't even think of confuting that.
This is indeed where I think management doesn't work well with us.They tend not to listen and believe they know it all.
Am sure that on our surveys etc,passenger might prioritize an ontime departure than a hotmeal and some nuts but when on board it is a very different matter.It is those little things that I have had most complaints for. Don't underestimate our passengers. They know what they want and what they should get for the price they pay.They just don't see how an hot towel and a pack of nuts could have made such a big difference. Am a very glad that from where you are you think they are not too bothered.. it is something for you not to worry about I suppose..

malcolmf

6th Jun 2010, 09:42

on a flight the other day, a non strike day, some one has gone in the bunks and emptied the oxy bottles in the crew bunk area... if you are reading this shame on you.I'm afraid I can only think of one side of the dispute who would do that.
With TW on his hols Lizanne goodness knows where and Twitter in charge of negotiations, if I was at BFC I would be thinking I may as well go back to work and limit the financial damage.
I have to say I have a great deal of respect (without agreeing with their actions) for the way the strikers have held out, I gave it until midday on the first day until it caved in but have clearly been proved wrong.
You are absolutely right though, we all have to work together once the politicians have moved on and forgotten all the CC. This will require respect from all sides to each other, and a level of forgiveness.

miyamotomushashi

6th Jun 2010, 09:52

on a flight the other day, a non strike day, some one has gone in the bunks and emptied the oxy bottles in the crew bunk area... if you are reading this shame on you. Shame on you ? Endangering your fellow colleagues' lives in the event of an emergency ..... I think 'shame' is a very very 'mild' reprimand. Hung, drawn and quartered is a better option!
The person(s) who commited that cowardly act should reflect upon his/her/ their action and next time, engage brain before action! What if, just for argument sake, they end up having to resort to using those now empty bottles to save their own cowardly lives ??? Remember, karma is like a boomerang ..... goes around but eventually comes back!!
I find it very very shocking and disturbing that sane adults (I am giving the culprit(s) the benefit of doubt here!) who are entrusted with great responsibilities (yes, I for one, ADMIT that being a cabin crew is not just about pushing a trolley and looking glamourous as depicted by Pam Ann ...... google it for fun :})can resort to doing such despicable and heinous acts. Whether you are a striker or not, you DO NOT endanger your colleagues and your OWN lives by doing STUPID, COWARDLY ACTS like the one mentioned above and trying to 'POISON' flight deck crews!!
Gimme 5 minutes with them in a back alley and I will personally introduce them to a nice serving of 'knuckle sandwiches', this is how ANGRY I am now!!!
My apologies for this post but you have to understand that I am very very ANGRY and ashamed that my fellow human being can do things like this to one another!:mad::ugh:

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 09:52

I cant think of any side that would do such a stuid dangerous thing (funny how emmidiatly some one would think of a side to blame)...the aircraft was away from base so anyone could have done it..not for one moment would I ever imagine that crew striking or not would endager lives in such away....
we realy all need to keep talking, stop the nastiness, and continue the debate .I have to work in a metal tube for hours on end unlike the office workers and the bosses.. we can not simply walk out for fresh air when the talk gets to tough or go home to our homes and re energise.. to ask crew not to talk about this whilst at work is completely crazy... this is our lives, this is our future.. I will talk to people with the repect they treat me with, but I will not be silenced when asked my view. Nor is it my intention to offend anyone.

Chigley

6th Jun 2010, 10:03

Dave3:

You clearly do not go onto either BASSA/Crewforum if you are offended by the comments on this forum.....which quite frankly are tame in comparison? However, you are right we should be able to argue our point without getting personal.

I have been opposed to this strike from the very beginning and my opinion has not altered. I do hope that we can all respect each others differences when we are working together again? I for one will not tolerate any kind of bullying or intimidation from anyone on my flights whether they went on strike or not. And if it reassures you to know, I think you will find that all crew that came in to work throughout the strike will be of the same mindset. :ok:

Slickster

6th Jun 2010, 10:11

I cant think of any side that would do such a stuid dangerous thing (funny how emmidiatly some one would think of a side to blame)

Dave3,

Regrettably, these things are happening. There have been numerous cases of Oxy bottles being found discharged, and safety equipment being found vandalised. One of the worst was a used tampon being hidden in the flight deck. The poor sod who found it, during his security checks, has had to undergo an AIDS test.

Now, I leave it for all on here to wonder which side of the fence the perpetrators of these acts might sit. It's bizarre behaviour, though, as they will have no idea who their actions are going to affect. It could be one of their best mates, partner, or even themselves. Absolute idiots.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 10:14

Chigley, I have spoken to stikers and non strikers... I think the fighting talk in the brief "bullying will not be tolerated....." sets a bad tone for the flights.. Yes we are aware that some strikers and non strikers will be hot headed but lets deal with that if and when it happens... Both sides feel they are in the right... well if we dont talk to each other we never know what we can learn.. for the record yes I do go on the Bassa site and yes I have posted on the bassa site that some of the comments are nasty... Everyone needs to understand that in a democracy we have the right to a different view... we must respect that.. As I said I will gladly talk to anyone on my flights about such an important issue...

ns68

6th Jun 2010, 10:14

Flexibility of ticket is prime for business. Having a slightly larger convertable seat and a hot meal isn't primary. Being able to short change your ticket and rebook plus the reassurance that you can refund/rebook your ticket late in the event of circumstance change is primary.

So few people care about 'club' the inflight product on a short, short haul flight.

Personally I couldn't care less where I sit on SH. Long Haul, as a distinctly seperate product makes a huge difference.

Perhaps you should take the blinkers off and see SH for what it really is, a feeder for LH. Remeber that we in SH don't get attributed much ticket revenue (about £10 I believe) per LH connecting pax. That should give you a clue as to where the pecking order is.

Yes, I do fly SH.

Try and say that on a Milan, Nice, Geneva, Moscow, Athens or Tripoli flight! Tell them their are on a feeder flight for LH so they shouldn't expect much..Try and tell them that really a Club Europe ticket is much more for flexibility than anything else. Tell them about where the pecking order is. YOU TELL THEM,because I won't.I will do my best never to make them fell that way actually.

So few people care about 'club' the inflight product on a short, short haul flight.

You don't know our passengers at all!

Personally I couldn't care less where I sit on SH. Long Haul, as a distinctly seperate product makes a huge difference.

I don't mind either,but they do when they pay big prices.
Yes, I do fly SH

You might fly SH but I don't think you are a crew member,you would know better than this.MUCH MUCH better!

malcolmf

6th Jun 2010, 10:29

Dave3
I cant think of any side that would do such a stuid dangerous thing (funny how emmidiatly some one would think of a side to blame)I have seen first hand how scared working crew have been of striking crew and have been very close to aircraft being handed over with galleys in a mess, bars incorrectly sealed and paperwork done incorrectly. There is absolutely no reason for working crews to have done that unless they are in fact strikers who have returned to work out of necessity.
P.S in my previous I labeled DS as Tw*tter and the forum has replaced it as PPrune!

the flying nunn

6th Jun 2010, 10:31

dave 3

your comments are some of the most heartening I have read on any forum since this dispute has begun. I can assure you that you are not the only one that hopes for a mature and respectful atmosphere on board when we are all back next week. I disagree with you that this forum has become nasty, it reads like a Sunday hymn sheet in comparison to crew forum and BASSA forum. I have read the odd post on the other forums asking for respect for all involved but the response is always the same. Who can forget the comment on the BASSA forum about letting scabs burn at the back of a burning aircraft if the situation should arise. It does worry me that some of the posters on the other forums are determined to extract revenge at any price from the people that went in. I hope you reported the incident with the oxygen bottles, this has been happening since long before the strikes began.

windows69

6th Jun 2010, 10:36

Can we also not forget the case of a manager assaulting a cabin crew member in front of his 80 year old mother. I will be carrying my safecall card as well because frankly being a striker puts me in a vunerable position. We all know that if i so much as look at someone in a way they perceive to be a dirty look i will be suspended and the company will instantly take the side of the person that reports me. As far as the case of the oxygen bottles ,well im astounded, how is this backing BA??? Also a facebook comment by a pilot describing Nigeria as a toilet and making vile comments about our customers has really shocked the strikers. We may all have different opinions on this strike , but some of the innacuracies i read on here are astounding. Lizanne has been at Bedfont every single day for those enquiring about her whereabouts. A pilot on my last trip came into the galley and told me of stories that the bus that went up to the High Court , he claimed the people on board were singing derogatory comments about loaders and strikebreakers. To clear this up i was on this bus and the whole journey was filmed and at no point did this ever happen. Apparently the operation whilst we strike is robust, and you are all doing fine without us , so i wonder why many of you seem so angered by our democratic right to take industrial action. Surely you have nothing to be concerned about so why discuss it anymore? We are not hooligans or thugs and from the few cases described above , if anyone needs protection at work it is us.

ns68

6th Jun 2010, 10:38

[QUOTE]There is absolutely no reason for working crews

After reading the comments on this forum, and all the bad wishing,I wouldn't blame any side..They are as bad as each other unfortunately.

Yesterday,I think I was asked why I thought management wasn't doing the right job..I gave my points but I understand if people didn't agree with those

BUT,

If there is a massive massive failure from the management is this: THEY DIVIDED A WORKFORCE..THAT IS THE BIGGEST BIGGEST FAILURE OF ALL.ONCE YOU DIVIDE YOUR WORKFORCE YOU HAVE FAILED COMPLETELY.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 10:41

ns68

6th Jun 2010, 10:46

if anyone needs protection at work it is us.

We need protection from Carmen as well, have you thought already about how bad our rosters are going to be?????;) It is going to be a nightmare!

Any request of annual leave etc,will be a big resounding NO!:ok:

LD12986

6th Jun 2010, 10:51

If there is a massive massive failure from the management is this: THEY DIVIDED A WORKFORCE..THAT IS THE BIGGEST BIGGEST FAILURE OF ALL.ONCE YOU DIVIDE YOUR WORKFORCE YOU HAVE FAILED COMPLETELY.

It was BASSA and Unite that picked this battle. Not BA. It was BASSA and Unite that initiated the ballots for industrial action and it was cabin crew that gave BASSA and Unite the mandate to wreak absolute havoc with it. It is BASSA that has been issuing all the anti-pilot/management bile and you can't blame BA for doing all that it can to mitigate the impact of the strikes.

You chose to dig youselves into the massive hole you now find yourselves in.

If anything, the company has been very patient and very tolerant of some very petulant behaviour. You should consider yourselves very lucky the company has staved off one of the "nuclear" options. If it had, this would have all been dealt with 9 months ago.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 10:56

LD moving forward with posts like yours is going to be imposible.. crew voted for strike action by an over whelming percentage.. then some crew decided that although they voted yes they would go into work.. now lets not look back we are in a stale mate... neither side moving...this is a democratic country... I am striking for my beliefs you are obviously not. that doesnt mean we can not talk and should hate each other..we need to stop looking back and try and work out how both sides in this can be working together again... left or right we need to talk.

ns68

6th Jun 2010, 11:06

It was BASSA and Unite that picked this battle. Not BA. It was BASSA and Unite that initiated the ballots for industrial action and it was cabin crew that gave BASSA and Unite the mandate to wreak absolute havoc with it. It is BASSA that has been issuing all the anti-pilot/management bile and you can't blame BA for doing all that it can to mitigate the impact of the strikes.

it's not unite that needs to make sure the workforce is happy.It is the company's responsability. so it is most definitely the management failure!I am not blaming Ba for trying to mitigate the impact of the strike..previous to the strike other dept were fed infos as cc the only dept not having taken cuts..how many times I have heard this..Well,nobody remembers this but it wasn't even 3 years ago,that we were getting ready for a strike,because of cost cuts.They wanted us on the hourly rate and through negotiations we ended up having a cut here and there and the promise for better relations with the union.I remember people saying we had been sold by the union and a general feeling of unhappiness but hey! So we have already been targeted then..it 's a vicious circle under this management.It's continuos! And from what I have heard it was what happened at Air Lingus. It was never stopping. And in the meantime the people at the top earn more and more.If you do a quick research,about 10 years ago a CEO of any company was earning 38 times what its employee did.As of today it is 80 times. I know it is not just BA, but we are lucky to have the chance to fight against this and to try and keep our t&c-not many people have this- why so many see it as so wrong?

License to Fly

6th Jun 2010, 11:08

Apparently the operation whilst we strike is robust, and you are all doing fine without us , so i wonder why many of you seem so angered by our democratic right to take industrial action.

So where do I start . Many people are angered by the loss of money from their salaries (good trips being cancelled as the schedule is reduced), by the comtempt you have for BA passengers (who after all pay our wages) and mostly by how some of the strikers behave when they are working on a BA aircraft intimidating non strikers with their views. This is all fact.

malcolmf

6th Jun 2010, 11:08

malcolmf would you agree that we all need to talk, and try and stop this blame culture.. we all have storys from both sides but crew and pilots carrying on being nasty and vindictive will help no one on board
Dave3
Absolutely, I have tried to always look after my crews from both sides, and have treated them all as individuals and with respect. I have had discussions about the situation with strikers and non strikers in a perfectly amicable way. In fact I'm not convinced that it has been a good idea to just not talk about it at all, maybe we wouldn't have got into this situation.
At the end of the day we have to run a safe operation for all our sakes and my focus is totally on that and messing about with the aircraft safety equipment is completely unacceptable from whichever side it happens.
You sound to me as though you will be fine, all the disciplinaries for "strange looks" I don't believe resulted in any serious sanctions. I hope to fly with you soon, you will probably be able to guess who I am!

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 11:14

malcolmf I look forward to flying with you and a good chat and debate...
I would just like to say I am a base closure always been crew did a stint at LHR in 98 on EF.. I have been with the company for 27years... I remember a policitian saying "get on your bikes and find some work" well I get in my car and drive 4hours ew to get to my work.. work I love and pax and crew I care so much about... It costs me approx £500 to get to work each month with hotels sometimes... for me I could not afford the new contract it would mean I could not aford to get to work.. so we all have stories.. we all have different situations.. we all need to talk Malcolmf thank you for your balanced reply x

blueskiesup

6th Jun 2010, 11:17

dave3,

I'm all for voicing an opinion about work T's & C's, but when strikers are seen enjoying themselves whilst there are others on the dole that would give their right arm for that job, it really is dificult to have sympathy. Especially as Woodley's asking for a company perk (not a right) to be re-instated before any talks will take place.

My opinions may sound negative, but the general public will see those pictures, see woodley going on holiday and leaving the helm to DS as a bit of joke.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 11:23

we need to talk to each other.. the general public will come back round.. You have the right to your opinion but we need to defuse this agression and anger and chanel it into working along side each other..
I have been to bedfont I have debated talked to the general public.. talked to ground crew and even waterside people that have cone to bedfont to talk to us... Yes there is a bar at bedfont yes people are talking....I for one would rather be in that arena when on strike than sat at home. it makes no diffence the geography of the stike the liquid that is being consumed or the fact that someone is wearing a pritty dress... lets get back to basics... we are on strike some agree some dont.. we need to sort this out. and not talking or being agressive to each other is not the way forward

RadarIdent

6th Jun 2010, 11:37

I do not believe that management have deliberately caused a divide, though, to my mind, it's certainly not an equal divide.

I will NEVER change my views. BASSA needed it's wings clipped, there are many in their midst who have alternative political motives (Willie, Willlie Willie...etc). ALL departments have taken hits, BASSA, despite talks lasting in excess of 14 months, REFUSED to play ball except offer savings that were to be repaid. Staff just had enough and wanted the Airline not just to survive, but to prosper. Consequently, staff 'backed BA', the rest is history. I will not move on this.

HOWEVER, strikers will disagree with my view as much as I disagree with their view.

That's why my previous posts have asked as to the viability of moving forward as 'one'.

Sometimes I feel we can, then feel the total opposite. We are now coming to the end of these strikes, no doubt the in-fighting will continue in its wake.

I don't know anymore. All I do know is that however we feel, we have customers to look after, and, hopefully entice their return after this damage.

I hope CRM then becomes a natural occurence in the fulness of time, if we can not endorse it any other way.

Let's at least focus on our passengers, however we feel, and prove to them that we are worthy of their custom. That indeed MUST be a common aim, no matter how are views differ.

TheKabaka

6th Jun 2010, 11:38

for me I could not afford the new contract it would mean I could not aford to get to work

Hi Dave,

Please show were this has been threatened? I don't believe it has. BA have given commitments to not attack current crews wages.

If they subsequently do attack your salary then have a strike ballot. BASSA have twisted and confused people until they will strike this is irresponsible.

RadarIdent

6th Jun 2010, 11:39

Took me so long to type my post, I then saw yours. Maybe then, we can do it

windows69

6th Jun 2010, 12:24

Licence to fly. I would like to ask why you believe we have contempt for our customers. You have stated this as a fact , i hold no contempt at all for them, FACT. To add to that i spent a long time talking with the flight crew on my last trip who thanked me for being so friendly and for not bringing the dispute or my opinions into work. I was threatened by a strikebreaker on this trip who told me that if i had a problem with her husband being on our trip and upgraded by another crew member, that the captain would be having words with me !! I had shown no sign of being upset by it at all and actually looked after her husbamd very well for which he was very grateful. I would never bully or harrass anybody , and i am saddened to see on this forum that overall we are being portrayed as thugs and hooligans. Nobody wants to comment on the manager assaulting one of the strikers who is a good friend of mine. The oxygen bottles left running in the bunk area so that they were left empty for the next crew, or the posting about Nigeria being a toilet. This comment is being passed onto the Nigerian Embassy as it is so insulting and frankly racist. Put it this way any actions like this on either side are unacceptable , but please get your facts right .For the final time Lizanne is with us everyday and not in Los Angeles as has been mentioned in previous posts.

Chigley

6th Jun 2010, 14:18

"Everyone needs to understand that in a democracy we have the right to a different view... we must respect that.."

Dave3:

Beautifully put, I couldn't agree more. At the end of the day we are all adults and I have every faith we will ALL act professionally. :)

luke77

6th Jun 2010, 14:29

I am interested to know is it still the 9879 that are shown on the home page, or is it DH's number "I'm the only one that knows how many".

Now BA is in the last period of IA and rumours of another ballot, I have been trying to track the numbers as an indication of support.

I hear such different numbers on this site about how many were at Bedfont on a daily basis....3000/1500 including kids....300 for Billy Bragg?

Just an honest question if anyone has a recent truthful update?
How many are today in BASSA?

Thank you in advance

BlueUpGood

6th Jun 2010, 15:47

t's not unite that needs to make sure the workforce is happy.It is the company's responsability.

I am responsible for my young son's happiness. I also have to teach him how to survive in the real world. Sometimes tears are shed. It's all a part of growing up :bored:

ns68

6th Jun 2010, 16:39

Quote:
t's not unite that needs to make sure the workforce is happy.It is the company's responsability.

I am responsible for my young son's happiness. I also have to teach him how to survive in the real world. Sometimes tears are shed. It's all a part of growing up

It is all relative!

Offline

6th Jun 2010, 17:05

Is there a meeting at BFC today, and if so, how many attended?

davidexba

6th Jun 2010, 17:20

Genuine question.

We've been hearing about some of the long and tortuous journeys that some crew have to make to attend work.

I'm assuming that those that took IA either the first time or in this latest tranche of IA will all have lost their ST (perhaps those from the second bunch have yet to lose it).

My question is, will some of these crew members simply have to resign from BA as they will immediately be unable to report for duty due to the travel costs they would incur? Or will they continue to come to work, but at their own (increased) expense?

Caribbean Boy

6th Jun 2010, 17:53

davidexba (http://www.pprune.org/members/329223-davidexba),

Both scenarios are valid.

Furthermore, if anyone fails to perform by being late, not turning up for work, etc, then there are formal policies (EG902 and EG901) for dealing with this.

Hotel Mode

6th Jun 2010, 18:20

Todays instalment

BASSA > Latest News

BEDFONT DAY 19 - DUNCAN’S REPORT BACKJun 6th, 2010 by admin

Sometimes Bedfont days just pass by without anything significant happening. People turn up, they have a “buckshee BASSA breakfast in a bun”, they man a picket line or two, they chew the cud, join in with a bit of sychronised megaphone chanting and then after a pint or a Pimms or two they crash in the field for an hour before meandering home satisfied that they have supported the cause. Such was today. The expected inclement weather never materialised, there was a laid back atmosphere and even the burger man was seen contemplating his navel which makes a change from him contemplating his bank balance.

Finlay Stott (aged 2) lost his Fireman Sam toy for a while but peace was restored when it was found “drowning” in the dog’s water bowl.

The henna lady continued to daub any available skin with her XXXX tattoos, the cakes continued to pour in, the samosas arrived on time, the generators that feed electricity into the marquee packed up twice and the Daily Mail printed its daily ritual of finding someone or something about Unite to have a bitch about. I mean it really is the limit Tony Woodley taking his sick wife on EasyJet to Paphos for a week and staying at a £600 a week apartment. What is the world coming to?

There is some news inasmuch some of the reps are meeting Derek Simpson tomorrow to go through the letter to BA informing them the reasons why we will shortly be issuing a notification to ballot letter. Willie Walsh is in Berlin until Tuesday afternoon allegedly at a IATA conference but in my opinion he is more likely to be looking at ways to rebuild the Berlin Wall.

I wiled away an hour this morning talking to an old BASSA veteran who participated in the 1997 dispute when, believe it or not, the relationship between us and the company was nearly as venomous. He had with him a folder that contained 5 fanzine magazines.

A group of anonymous crew brought out an underground magazine called “Chaos” in the aftermath of the strike and really lampooned BA to the extent that the company were desperate to find out who was behind it. All fingers pointed to BASSA but in fact we were, for once, innocent but we all had fun watching BA running around like headless chickens trying to find out the identities of the publishers. Issue One was really hard-hitting and hilarious but what caught my eye was a quote from the famous Russian novelist and dramatist, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, which is probably more apt now than when it was used in 1997. In my particular circumstances ie no longer an employee of BA, I certainly know where Aleksandr was coming from.

“You only have power over people so long as you don’t take everything away from them. But, when you’ve robbed a man of everything, he is no longer in your power - he’s free again”.

So, three days to go. Tuesday is House of Commons day (details to be posted later) and Wednesday will culminate in another march along the Bath Rd, which means tomorrow is the last normal day. There are still members earning their XXXX for the first time (I met 2 today) so it is still important we make sure the Bedfont experience remains ongoing for virgin visitors. Looking forward to seeing as many of you as possible. Regards to all - Duncan

PS My tomatoes are doing just fine, thanks to all those who enquired after their welfare today.

Caribbean Boy

6th Jun 2010, 19:01

Sometimes Bedfont days just pass by without anything significant happening.Interpretation: few people turned up.

HiFlyer14

6th Jun 2010, 20:39

DH's ramblings are symbolic of this strike: futile, puerile, infantile, and completely devoid of any useful information.

If I was on strike, I would want to know:
A. What we have achieved so far.
B. Any further advances we hope to make.
C. Any talks being conducted (there aren't apparently)?
D. Why no talks are being conducted.
E. Why Tony Woodley jets off on holiday while I'm struggling to pay my monthly bills.
F. How it is going to end?
G. If any court action is being taken about the ST issue (after all Unite claim it is illegal). If not, why not?
H. Why are you organising hardship loans, instead of getting me back to work?
I. How is a hardship loan going to help me? It is seemingly not interest free, so how will I pay it, and the interest back, especially if more strikes are planned?

And most importantly: when we go back to work in a few days time; what will have been achieved?

80% of longhaul flights and 60% of shorthaul flights operating must surely ring alarm bells?

If not, then we really have to ask: exactly what is being put in those delicious cakes?:ooh:

giza

6th Jun 2010, 20:45

I was backing BA today as CSP, and was allocated airside arrivals, lots of crew happy to talk today as they collected their bags, they looked less stressed, wanted to know how the rest of the airline was feeling and wondered how it would all end. Lots more eye contact and smiles. The journey back to Waterside where about 15 crew, pilots and CC, high jacked our bus to join us was particulaly ammusing and good spirited.

I am taking all this as a good sign.

giza

6th Jun 2010, 20:48

E. Why Tony Woodley jets off on holiday while I'm struggling to pay my monthly bills.

Hyflyer14, you forgot to mention the very expensive blue range rover in the picture (mail on line)

Backing BA and proud :ok:

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 20:57

davidex I had a year of paid travel by BA when my base closed since then l have always paid my own travel to work ... I am simply making the point that if the new contract came in I could no longer afford to come to work..I had WW on a flight and asked him some relevent questions.. his answers did not leave me confident that I would have a sustainable contract and stable income after her leaves then company. Thats why I am striking my personal opinon.

stormin norman

6th Jun 2010, 20:58

Tony has to have a holiday like anyone else.Just because he takes it while 3000+ of his members are going without pay,losing friends and have no idea whats going on is no reason for him to cancel a nice few days lapping up the sun with a few beers-the man obviously feels he deserves it.

HiFlyer14

6th Jun 2010, 21:15

PCCC > Latest News

CRC DAY 19 – A CREW MEMBER’S REPORT BACKJun 6th, 2010 by admin

Sometimes CRC days just pass by without anything significant happening. People turn up, they checkin, have breakfast in the canteen, they chew the cud, join in with a bit of sychronised chat in the coffee shop and then after a latte or two they go to the briefing satisfied that they have supported the cause. Such was today. The expected strike never really materialised, there was a laid back atmosphere and even the CSD was seen contemplating his navel which makes a change from him contemplating his bank balance. (Joke!)

The young child in 29A hurt his ears on descent but peace was restored by the calm, helpful response of the cabin crew.

The lady in Club painted her nails; the product, while slightly reduced was still excellent. I apologized to one Gold Card Holder and he turned and said “XXXX I am just so pleased to see you, that if you gave me nothing it would taste good!”. The engines that fly the plane worked perfectly (due to excellent maintenance by our expert engineers).

There is some news inasmuch as there is a crumour that BASSA (the ones that used to represent us) will shortly be issuing a notification to ballot letter. No-one is bothered by it. The only question being asked is “Do they really think people will vote yes this time?” Willie Walsh is apparently in Berlin until Tuesday afternoon at an IATA conference; it’s very much business as usual.

I wiled away an hour this morning talking to an old BASSA veteran who participated in the March dispute. They then explained how misled they felt they had been by BASSA and so had now returned to work. They asked if I had heard of the Professional Cabin Crew Council. I said no, pray tell me more.

Apparently a group of anonymous crew started a new council called the PCCC – due to the ridiculousness of BASSA calling a strike over 1 crew member off a plane. So many people rushed to join to the extent that the BASSA reps were desperate to find out who was behind it. All fingers pointed to real cabin crew and, unbelievably, it was. But we all had fun watching BASSA running around like headless chickens trying to find out the identities of this innovative new idea. Their website (www.mypccc.co.uk (http://www.mypccc.co.uk/)) was really professional and factual but what caught my eye was a quote “What is this strike about?” In my particular circumstances ie no longer a member of Unite, I certainly know where the PCCC was coming from.

So, three days to go. Tuesday is expected to have more flights operating (details to be posted by BA) and Wednesday will culminate in even more which means this week is virtually normal operations. There are still VCC earning their WINGS for the first time (I met 2 today) so it is still important we make them very welcome. Looking forward to seeing as many of you as possible onboard. Regards to all - PCCC

PS Tomatoes. They are red and round. Other than that, I find it beyond impossible to write anything about tomatoes.
I am BA cabin crew and this is my own viewpoint and not that of BA.

Caribbean Boy

6th Jun 2010, 21:18

dave3 (http://www.pprune.org/members/327511-dave3),

If Unite has pretty much accepted the Way Forward Agreement which includes the maintenance of existing contractual terms (unless amended through the agreed NSP negotiating procedures) and the monthly travel payment, then why are you striking.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 21:23

Hiflyer that was a very good post.

giza

6th Jun 2010, 21:24

Great Post Hyflyier:ok::);):8:D:=

mdj01

6th Jun 2010, 21:24

Brilliant!

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 21:27

nothing has been agreed.. as I tried to explain one person making a promise does not mean that the next person that comes along can not break it unless it is a concrete proposal . My personal view.. I am not secure in what has been offered... and nothing has been agreed.

28L

6th Jun 2010, 21:29

I am simply making the point that if the new contract came in I could no longer afford to come to work.
This is what I cannot understand. When did Willie ever talk of you going onto New Fleet? On the contrary, you have had any number of assurances that you will remain on your current T&Cs. I believe that that has been a fundemental element of every offer BA has made to you. E.g.:

• Terms and conditions for current crew - A fundamental principle of this offer is that crew will have a firm commitment from British Airways in respect to their terms of employment. Current crew can feel assured that their existing contractual terms will be maintained for the future unless amended through the agreed NSP negotiating procedures.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 21:33

if I will remain on my current T&C's why is there a need for Mr Walsh to change anything then... I should just stay the same apart from offering a pay cut which i am happy to do for a period to help the company..

28L

6th Jun 2010, 21:33

We crossed. Frankly, if you and your Union simply don't accept any offer made by BA what hope is there of any settlement? I assume from your posts that whatever BA offer, you won't believe them.
Where on Earth do you go from there?

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 21:37

I think you have hit the nail on the head and it comes down to trust.. I am a base closure.. was promised all sorts.. had my contract changed so many times now.. It is a sad fact.. there is no trust...

birdspeed

6th Jun 2010, 21:37

CB:
Because, as with my darling offspring, when the hissy fit has developed into a full-on, no-holes-barred, kicking-and-screaming tantrum which Mummy cooly ignores, they have no idea what it's all about or how to stop.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 21:40

im sorry birdspeed was your post refering to me? I dont understand it could you please explain

birdspeed

6th Jun 2010, 21:43

Absolutely not, crossed posts, I was reponding to Caribbean Boy regarding why the strike is still continuing.
Apologies if I caused offence.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 21:48

thanx for your reply no offence taken

28L

6th Jun 2010, 21:50

I understand the lack of trust (on both sides). But if you get a legally binding contract agreed between BA and your Union, what more can you expect?

Your opinion is shared by very many of your colleagues and makes me very depressed. BA are offering you a contract which is legally binding. Agreements can be changed - as has been shown by crew complements etc.

What contract has BA reneged on in your time in the Company?

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 21:59

at one point we gave 5000 pounds per crew member per year up to the company to purchase new aircraft.. I kid you not....The fact that my union would have less say in my day to day work would not make me comfortable (my opinion) I have number crunched the figures..my pension will be effected.. I am not stable in the trips that will be offered to the older crew or crew on the revised or what ever you want to call it contract.. I realy have looked into this. I am not a militant striker.. I am crew with many years flying experience.. I have never ever had a fall out with anyone.. even through all of this I have remained friends to all I meet..and will continue... I have looked into this and it does not sit comfortable with me I went to my BASSA meetings and I had the pleasure of talking to our CEO on a flight... unfortunately the CEO did not releave my fears after at least a 2 hour chat with him.

28L

6th Jun 2010, 22:15

at one point we gave 5000 pounds per crew member per year up to the company to purchase new aircraft
When was that? Was it a change to your contract? I'm not saying it wasn't. only that I don't remember it (I'm 23 years in BA), and if it happened I'm as sure as anything it wasn't a non-negotiated change to your contract.

my pension will be effected
In what way? Are your variable payments pensionable? Again, it's not a wind-up question; I genuinely don't know. But I don't think they are, and as such your pension shouldn't be affected.

I would be delighted to be shown to be wrong, because my gut feeling is that people like yourself are being led up the garden path by your Union.

ns68

6th Jun 2010, 22:28

Dave3,am so happy you came along and started posting.I think you are explaining our reasons to follow IA very well. Me,like yourself am everything but a militant and when I started posting on here a week ago most of the posts were referring to strikers as BASSA militants and somehow deserving no return to work.

I know very well that it's further from the truth.Most of the people I know followed that YES vote and not one of them took the decision lightly.They were sad to miss their report-for some it meant the FIRST ever time in their long career - and most of us were scared of the consequences.This was and still is the general feeling so when I first read comments on here I just didn't see myself as the person often described, BASSA militant, unloyal and somehow out of order for taking industrial action.

I have put my point across and I have realized that it was only a few that wished us bad and have posted since but it is nice to see you here!

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 22:30

28L it has been so lovely having a debate with someone who is genuinely interested in talking.. I have the facts and the figures.. can I post on this forum though as it is a open forum and I dont want to get in trouble? ... If so I will post tomorrow and welcome any open debate.. in all I have worked for the company for 27years I have had my contract changed 5 times and if this goes ahead my T&C's changed 3 times.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 22:34

with regard to the money for the new aircraft... things were happening at the regions that LHR crew had no idea about and frankly did not care about.. not on my door step I suppose was the reaction.. this happened around 1994 forgive me if I am a little wrong on the year but I will clarify tomorrow when I have the paper work if I am alowed

Chesh01

6th Jun 2010, 22:38

We need protection from Carmen as well, have you thought already about how bad our rosters are going to be?????http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif It is going to be a nightmare!

Any request of annual leave etc,will be a big resounding NO!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif ns68

Sorry but this kind of speculation is OTT. For a start one persons great trip is another's nightmare. Scheduling just do not have the time to look at names when filling flights. Rosters good or bad are never personal.

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 22:42

ns68 I have been following your posts and what a refreshing view they are... reasonable and with out any malice.. I am with you I am upset that anyone who is a striker is thort of in the main as a thug and a hooligan.. so far from the truth.. as with any two sides you have a few who are completely with out any reasoning and the majority who would love to debate.. My concern is with the lack of debate.. if you dont speak you can not be heard if you dont listen you can not learn.. I may not change my views but I can always respect anothers views when it is put forward in a respectful manor.. on both sides the venom that is spat in some of the posts leaves me both scared and upset that it has come to this. I am not an articulate person as you may have noticed I have dyslexia.. however I have a heart, I have feelings and I do care I feel .. It may not be what some want to hear a stike with feelings but again we live in a democracy everyone has a right to a voice...

Chesh01

6th Jun 2010, 22:47

with regard to the money for the new aircraft... things were happening at the regions that LHR crew had no idea about and frankly did not care about.. dave3

Glasgow, Belfast, Edinburgh, Birmingham bases closed. LGW worldwide absorbed into Euro LGW...... All of these were "Union negotiated" All these left the base crews unhappy. As an ex LGW I was very disapointed at the negotiated termination of the worldwide base and the leaving options we were given. For all that union negotiation on my behalf I would rather take imposition!

ns68

6th Jun 2010, 22:48

Sorry but this kind of speculation is OTT. For a start one persons great trip is another's nightmare. Scheduling just do not have the time to look at names when filling flights. Rosters good or bad are never personal.

it was obviously a joke for me..and I soooo soooo agree that ones person great trip is another's nightmare, but saying that,a while ago I called scheduling to get a lieu day and I was told there wasn't any and that my Dme would have gone to some other poor cc.. I replied that I enjoy my DMEs,they are a good day out,but it's obviously renowned in scheduling for not being so popular according to my conversation on the day.
And by the way, don't know what fleet you are on,but we always joke about Carmen on board,at least on Eurofleet we do..so don't get too upset about it!:ok:

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 22:55

Chesh01 not being smart but did you leave Manchester out of your reply for any perticular reason when mentioning base closures? You would rather take imposition that is totaly your choice.. I would rather not.

Chesh01

6th Jun 2010, 23:23

To be honest I am unsure of the specifics with the base closures. I do know they were union negotiated and that the crews were overall unhappy with what the union negotiated on their behalf. I was at LGW.

Incidently I respect your right to withdraw your labour and I've had no problems in working with strikers so far.

I sincerely hope you have no grief at work...

Spanner in the works

6th Jun 2010, 23:24

Dave3 and others.
Do you think BASSA/UNITE made every effort to work with BA prior to the imposition last November?
Did they work toward a solution of the issues facing the airline - namely, less coming into the tills?

dave3

6th Jun 2010, 23:42

Hi Spanner, from what I know I do feel that more could have been done from both sides.. I know that myself and many crew were all ready along with Bassa to give money and understood that times needed to change..of course we had to give things up.. it does upset me though when the ceo and the execs get share deals during all of this but hey hol...
I along with everyone at British Airways have worked so hard to make this company lets be real with out the cleaner to the ceo we would not have a company we are all important...
Years ago I remember feeling valued, I remember feeling excited,, I remember thinking that I could go so much further with my career at British Airways.. I have not had those feelings for a long time now.. again promotional prospects are virtualy nil in my role if this goes through. how do you motivate me.. how do you value me, how do you get the best out of me. How do you make me happy at work....

gr8tballsoffire

6th Jun 2010, 23:56

Dave3
You could have had a share deal too. It was part of the first offer.
Did you know that was the case?

the flying nunn

7th Jun 2010, 00:01

I am upset that anyone who is a striker is thort of in the main as a thug and a hooligan.. so far from the truth.. as with any two sides you have a few who are completely with out any reasoning and the majority who would love to debate.. My concern is with the lack of debate.. if you dont speak you can not be heard if you dont listen you can not learn.

Dave 3 I want to believe that you represent the majority view from the strikers camp but I'm sorry I don't. Reading the BASSA and Crew Forums I am shocked by the number and frequency of posts that look to stir up hatred and revenge towards the crew that ignored the call to strike. I mentioned before that I have read requests to let non strikers burn in an emergency situation as well as literally thousands of posts demanding that non strikers be ignored down route. Add to that the hundreds of suggestions on how to spot a non striker in the briefing, what is not accepted as an excuse for working, even poems encouraging the hate - the list is endless. What does surprise me is that usually in the same post words such as honor, dignity, respect etc are used. I am sorry but there is a lynch mob mentality that percolates through the pages of those forums as well as, and often encouraged by, the communications that are issued from BASSA. I havent seen anything like that feeling from the non strikers towards the strikers.

Whilst working through the strike I have found that the strongest of emotions directed at the strikers is of pity. This evolves from the often held belief that the union has fed it's members a constant stream of untruths. Sure, after reading the constant campaign of hate towards non strikers lots of us are apprehensive about the return of "the other side" but that doesn't mean that we don't know that we will all have to work together and respect the others views. I would just hope that it can be done without leaving anyone left to burn, cars being scratched, oxygen being emptied etc. In your post you mention the two "sides", that confirms the fact that we are not all in agreement about what has happened. I think we will find that there will be days when we find ourselves on a majority strikers crew and other days when we find ourselves on a majority non strikers crew. At the end of the day strikers or not we are all crew and hopefully we will get along just well enough to run a safe and secure operation and that there will be people like you from both camps that encourage honest adult debate. I take my hat off to you for doing so.:)

this is my own personal view and not that of my employer

Spanner in the works

7th Jun 2010, 00:07

I think you'll find most of us have had limited promotion opportunities for some years now. The side-effect of flatter organisational structures.

In times gone by, the structure was very bloated. It has now been thinned by a huge amount - the CSD changes were always going to be on the agenda. Similar has happened all over the place.
I have had to reapply for my job twice in the last 7 years as a result of such changes.

You say that there have been issues on both sides with respect to negotiation prior to November - but do you remember how at first - the main union line was that the situation wasn't as bad as BA were making out. That BA were "pulling a fast one" and over-egging the financial outlook in order to push changes through. Hence the PR exercise that highlighted the "cash burn" scenario. This was early to mid 2009 if I remember right.
BALPA actually got experts to study BA's books as part of their negotiation - not long after, a deal was struck.
I believe BASSA did not - or refused to.

Seems telling that the line about BA portraying the finances as poorer than they are, has disappeared from the BASSA rhetoric.
Does this mean they realise it was as bad as made out?
he implications of this are of course that negotiations may have been more "business oriented" had BASSA taken the risk the airline was facing and sat down to seriously negotiate. Or maybe not.

I personally think the above is a big reason why folk are asking "what are you actually on strike for?"

A recent line taken has been "it'll be you next - we are fighting for everyone's rights here".
Welll, we have already had it - and we realise there will be more. Nature of buisness I'm afraid. I've seen a big reshuffle or cost push every three/four years for the 25 I have been here.

Human Factor

7th Jun 2010, 07:15

...at one point we gave 5000 pounds per crew member per year up to the company to purchase new aircraft.. I kid you not....

I couldn't put a price on it but the assertion above is accurate. I can't speak for what cabin crew were asked to give but the pilot's working agreement in BA Regional was changed to finance twenty six new aircraft at BHX, MAN and GLA. In the end we got nine new A319s at BHX (now at LHR) and a bunch of second hand 737s at Manchester (now recently retired from LGW). GLA got nothing. Unfortunately, the "business plan had changed".

Back to the thread.

dave3

7th Jun 2010, 07:15

I will not be able to retain my current T&C's my promotioal prospects will be nill( however since last October I have been constantly asked to work up a grade...so there is a need for promotion. The CSD working on board.. well I have no real problem with this altho I did find that the role of the CSD was so important in dealing with customer complaints seat problems landing cards and yes even the form filling whils it left crew to get on with the service... The crew member commig off..well on a full load I feel sad for the poor customer at the back of club who constantly waits forever untill the food/ drink or arrives. I believe that once the customer startscomplaining the extra crew member will be put back on but this is a stale mate... My pension will be effected the way I see it the trips will be pushed to new fleet...O/t will deminish, destination payments will be lost.
I have crunched the figures and my pension will be effected..
When I asked our CEO who would be keeping his promises after he had gone he laughed....
I for one have to say if the company had come to me and said we need £2000 per year off you for the next 3 years in order to put the company back on track and all the senior managers the CEO included and all the other departments will do the same with a percentage of their wage in line with what you are giving.. Yourcurrent T&C's will remain the same including the union involvment .. we are going to bring in a new fleet and these are the routes they will be doing.... there will be no change in these routes and the routes you currently have are protected... then YES I would have agreed...

Human Factor

7th Jun 2010, 07:19

My pension will be effected the way I see it the trips will be pushed to new fleet...O/t will deminish, destination payments will be lost.
I have crunched the figures and my pension will be effected..

Your pension is based upon your basic pay, not allowances, destination payments, etc. Provided your basic pay doesn't change your pension will not change. The only proposal BA have suggested, which Unite have agreed to is that basic pay, not including increments, is frozen (not cut) for two years. The only basic pay cut was proposed by BASSA. :ugh:

Crunch the figures again.

Edit: Proposed changes to NAPS mean that perhaps you will be paying a little more in contributions for the same pension. This is separate from the current industrial dispute and if you are a member of BARP, you will not be affected.

dave3

7th Jun 2010, 07:29

Human factor you remember it well thank you.. that is exactly how it was...
and we are still waiting for all the new aircraft .. its like a buider working for wimpy being asked by wimpyto bring their own bricks and cement to work in order for the company to build houses.
. what I am trying to convey is I have had my cost cutting in a large way... I have had my T&C's changed I have now a large communting bill each month due to base closure.. although crew continue to night stop in hotels in my base town to continue the flights we used to do....anyone who says "well move to London or give your job up" doesnt realise how much I love this job.and how happy the company were that we would continue to commute.. I cant simply up and move my family.. I already did this for the company 20 years ago and then moved again..my family is now settled.. my husbands busniess is in my home town.. I have a job I just want to protect it on the T&C's my company and my union have given me.

blue____

7th Jun 2010, 07:37

Most of the commuters that commute from Spain and the rest of Europe, have already "bought" concessions with EZY or Ryan as they have links (friends or ex colleagues) and the staff travel with those airlines is more flexible. I don't know about the rest, but commuting from other places like LAX or other places in the US is too much (personal opinion) plus it says to me that if they chose to do it, they can afford it.(old contacts, working maybe twice a year)

Now regarding rostering, well last year a friend told me that there are two very long ATH flights in July only (almost a double stand over) and because she knew people, she got them both. Well, she was impressed to see the same crew on both flights, so she is not the only one...

I also went as cling on to NRT twice, half of the crew were the same on both flights, so hey, it happens, but as the company is so big, you don't see or feel it that much.

Just back from work, in the bus and car park strikers that flew on the breather day and returned today (in full uniform with bassa lanyards and "vote yes" luggage tags) were giving us killing looks all the way... Is this going to stop anytime soon? When will people realize that everyone is free to have -and entitled to- their own opinion, that may be different to the one they have?

Human Factor

7th Jun 2010, 07:39

I have a job I just want to protect it on the T&C's my company and my union have given me.

I sympathise, honestly I really do. The quote above applies to me too (Airbus Captain). However, it simply isn't practical to hold out for no changes. BA can't afford it - despite what BASSA would have you believe. Under the current circumstances, your priority should be to protect your job. The only way you can do this (as the other workgroups in BA have already recognised) is to do your best to keep BA in business. As you say, you love your job. Why throw it away?

The offer from BA detailed a few pages back was a good one, all things considered, yet BASSA chose not to accept it. It wasn't even put to the membership for a vote (why not?). I guarantee that as a result of this intransigence, whatever deal eventually materialises will be significantly inferior. That offer gave you the chance to retain most of your terms and conditions. The next one almost certainly won't.

Interestingly, one of my colleagues spoke to WW about his intentions after we had signed our part of the deal. We had basically been given the choice of an "all pay" or "all T&Cs" or "a bit of each" solution to achieve our savings. WW expected us to protect our pay at all costs and said he would have only gone after our T&Cs if we had not come to an agreement. Personally (having taken about a 5% cut), I'm pleased we did a deal.

Good luck. I think you'll need it. :uhoh:

dave3

7th Jun 2010, 07:45

perhaps it may change when the company give us the green light to talk about it at work
I have said on an earlier post a CSD or Captain stating in a brief... "we do not want to hear anything about the current situation" does not help and sets a bad feeling at the start of the day... of course people are going to talk about it.. we need to be able to talk about it and ask peoples different opinions.. the devide has got to big and I think its up to all of us by talking openly with out fear of a silly comment being reported to start the talks.. we all need to be less sensitive.. understand there are going to be the odd off the cuff remark from both sides and deal with it instead of running to managers with the shout "sack them sack them" and that goes for both sides.. we all need to be adults and the company need to start alowing us to deal with this .

Human Factor

7th Jun 2010, 07:56

"we do not want to hear anything about the current situation"

I'm an advocate of keeping the industrial situation off the aircraft. It distracts people from the job in hand. Off the aeroplane, talk to your heart's content.

Hand Solo

7th Jun 2010, 07:58

I'd imagine the strikers would need to advance beyond the 48 page thread on Crew Forum titled "Who says I have to respect colleagues choices?" before open discussion of the dispute could be permitted at work. Most of the contributors to CF and BASSA appear incapable of reasoned debate and very rapidly start hurling hysterical abuse at those who disagree with their ultra militant stance. That's the reason debate has to be kept off the aircraft.

ottergirl

7th Jun 2010, 08:01

dave3 - I know Eurofleet is different to WW but I always tell my crew that they should talk about it but they must respect each others opinions. Of course it is not realistic to ban all discussion; this is the biggest thing in most peoples lives right now. It's the giant pile of elephant poo in the corner of the galley!

flyingnunn -Reading the BASSA and Crew Forums I am shocked by the number and frequency of posts that look to stir up hatred and revenge towards the crew that ignored the call to strike. I mentioned before that I have read requests to let non strikers burn in an emergency situation as well as literally thousands of posts demanding that non strikers be ignored down route. Add to that the hundreds of suggestions on how to spot a non striker in the briefing, what is not accepted as an excuse for working, even poems encouraging the hate - the list is endless.

Actually, if you look closer, it is the same posters, maybe 30 or 40 individuals, who are saying these things. ns68 and dave3 are much more representative of the crew on-board who find themselves between a rock and a hard place and have no idea what to do about it. Rhetoric and spin has long been a tool in industrial action (and politics for that matter) but I don't believe most actually buy in to it. I have sat in restaurants with a mixed crew, all discussing it sensibly. I have witnessed Flight and striking Cabin crew having a rational conversation too. Its all about not pre-judging!

52049er

7th Jun 2010, 08:13

Dave3. Thanks for continuing the debate ... Just 2 quick points...

1) ' I feel sad for the poor customer at the back of club who constantly waits forever untill the food/ drink or arrives.' - why are they waiting? The crewing level in club has not changed as the lost crew member has been replaced in club by the newly working CSD. And it's not because of IFE issues (that needs a switch turning off and left for 30 minutes) or passenger issues (it's a long flight - a bit of prioritising might help...).

2) Given the company's position, can we really afford CSD's on £30-£50k being employed on every flight just in case there are pax issues or to hand out immigration cards? If not, what should we do with them? Sack them, or use them in the cabin?

I too was in the Regions. BASSA had ZERO interest in what happened, probably because it had no effect on LHR's WW CSD's....

cessnapete

7th Jun 2010, 08:13

As a lighter aside on this Forum, I found the following in Libbie Escolmes splendid book, Glamour In The Skies published last year.

''BASSA was an old style union and not very pleasant according to A.... B....''

''It was certainly upsetting for many stewardesses,who were told no one would would fly with them unless they were members''

''Life was unbearable on board if you were flying with a union steward and were not a member''

''I recall several awful strikes where certain stewards didn't help the cause by arriving in a Rolls-Royce'' (or in the present IA at BFC in a BMW M3)

No change there then!

ns68

7th Jun 2010, 08:14

Dave 3 I want to believe that you represent the majority view from the strikers camp but I'm sorry I don't. Reading the BASSA and Crew Forums I am shocked by the number and frequency of posts that look to stir up hatred and revenge towards the crew that ignored the call to strike. I mentioned before that I have read requests to let non strikers burn in an emergency situation as well as literally thousands of posts demanding that non strikers be ignored down route. Add to that the hundreds of suggestions on how to spot a non striker in the briefing, what is not accepted as an excuse for working, even poems encouraging the hate - the list is endless. What does surprise me is that usually in the same post words such as honor, dignity, respect etc are used. I am sorry but there is a lynch mob mentality that percolates through the pages of those forums as well as, and often encouraged by, the communications that are issued from BASSA. I havent seen anything like that feeling from the non strikers towards the strikers.I am going to disagree completely with you, and I am not normally like that.I always try to have an open mind about others opinions.
I have never been on CF so maybe I am missing out some nasty comments-I recommend you don't go and read them if they upset you. Have been on BASSA and the most comments are directed at our CEO.They see him as the ruin of our airline. but otherwise there is always a laugh and a joke on there.There is a lot of taking about staff travel..etc..Saying that, I will go and have a quick sweep at the posts this morning just to see what you mean. normally there is hardly anything bad.If there is,it is as much as there was on here last week. But once again, don't read them if they upset you.it 's only words on a laptop screen.

I would just hope that it can be done without leaving anyone left to burn, cars being scratched, oxygen being emptied etc.I think you have been a bit over dramatic here.Access to forum and bassa forums are for everybody. Anybody could have written those messages..so,please do not accuse anybody of anything unless you are sure.If you are genuenly concerned about those msg,then report them and I am sure your case will be followed. There is a few very strong minded individuals supporting the strike and that's all.Yes,I agree I think they don't really like you for having gone into work..THEY REALLY don't.So,what?Well,let them.This happens in life,people fall out.Give it a bit of time.

Whilst working through the strike I have found that the strongest of emotions directed at the strikers is of pity. This evolves from the often held belief that the union has fed it's members a constant stream of untruths.
If you want to go into work during industrial action,please do.But justifying yourself by accusing others to be gullible it is not the best way. You have decided to go in ,full stop.You accepted that the company will pay you a MTP, you accepted very little prospects of promotion and you accepted that the NF will take away most routes in the coming months.This routes are not set in stone in the proposal.at the moment we are letting go just a few, how can you not see that they have got all the intentions to move the most of them in the near future??And what will you do then ? Strike? No,because your union won't be there.Complain?This was the last chance for us to try and keep the good of our job-and I am not talking about money here- and I was surprised that quite a few weren't bothered. In the future you'll just have to take everything that comes and you won't have a right to talk.It will be take it or leave it! That's why this current strike, imposition,NF with no agreements..no guarantees of routes..every bullet point on the 'way forward' seem to have the words"to be reviewed, in line with,etc" which means NO GUARANTEE WHATSOEVER.

I know it was convenient to go in.You don't lose your pay,you don't lose your staff travel, and you might actually get a set of things negotiated while others are on the line for you.It's a win win situation.I have said this here before.I wish I could have taken the same position you did.But I couldn't.

I understand very well that people posting on here are often not cc and they don't care whether we keep our t&C,actually there is a lot of determination of seeing us going down(but it doesn't matter-they have got every right to protect their job)but from fellow crew it's harder to take.

52049er

7th Jun 2010, 08:30

NS - Noones contract has a 'guarantee' in it. It's a nonsense. What if I had a guarantee in my contract that I would have 3 pilots on an LA trip and Mr Boeing came up with an aircraft that flew it in an hour. Would we keep 3 pilots or would we negotiate through the normal channels?

All those 'to be reviewed through NSP' clauses are normal, sensible contract points. It's why (contrary to what BASSA would like you to believe) BA wants and needs Unions. From time to time the world changes and the company cannot negotiate with everyone individually.

Caribbean Boy

7th Jun 2010, 08:34

There used to be two guarantees:
death
taxesCabin crew who keep striking about lack of guaranteed T&Cs despite recession, BA's horrible financial results and huge competition from lower cost airlines are living in a world of unreality. There are now three guarantees:

death
taxes
striking cabin crew losing support for their cause

Chigley

7th Jun 2010, 08:42

I agree with ottergirl that you and dave3 are representative of the majority of cabin crew in as much as we are capable of having an adult discussion but from a different perspective. And as you guys say, we may actually learn from each other.

However, I do still have an issue with your point regarding losing our T & C's, as all the comms from BA have clearly stated that we will continue to benefit from these? I believe it's the union that in fact sending out a strong message that we are losing them?

Also, I fully respect your decision to go on strike and can see from your very well reasoned arguments why you have chosen to do so. But in your last post you mentioned that you are 'putting yourself on the line for others'. This I do not accept as for me people on strike are just making the situation worse.

I and many of my colleagues recognised a fair and reasonable offer back in October, which included an extra ticket and a share option scheme. An offer we would have happily accepted, as well as enjoying our current t&c's.

Therefore, strikers are not doing me any favours, they have just made our offer and situation worsen.

vertigowerty

7th Jun 2010, 08:50

Just spoken to a colleague... she brought back a flight the day after the "breather day". She left LHR on a strike day. When they boarded the aircraft for the return sector, they were all shocked to find that all tea and coffee bags had been torn, sugar sachets torn and emptied, eye wash removed, liquor bars were virtually empty (including back-ups) and threatening notes hidden in the jumpseats.

Apparently the strikers that "had to operate" on the breather day, wanted to make a statement... I say "apparently" because only a stupid person, or bunch of crew would have done such a thing, knowing that an on board form could have been written and all culprits could easily be identified... I hope it was only a bad joke from ground staff or cleaners as -call me naive- I refuse to believe or admit, that a colleague could have done that.

I hope my colleague has lied to me. If the above mentioned story is real, well, it says enough about the qualities of some of us.

melc

7th Jun 2010, 08:57

Its getting more and more childish by the minute

Hand Solo

7th Jun 2010, 09:08

n68 - if you want to see whats wrong with the BASSA forum, and the behaviour of striking crew, take a look now. On the first page of the Ballot 2010 forum you'll find threads with titles such as "Our wonderful scab colleagues", "Dear two faced", and under the thread title "Apologies to crew member crossing the Bath Road" this lovely comment:

Sincere apologies to the lady in uniform who sadly happened to be crossing the bath Road outside the Aurora Hotel at lunchtime today.

We all passed by in the big Red Bus shouting 'Scab' but of course realised in moments that you had just come back from a nightstop.......and fully support the strike. I wanted to jump off and give you a hug. Sorry that you got caught in the chanting - we all felt dreadful and hope we didn't upset you. We know you are 'one of us' and not one of the spineless weakings.

I will give you that hug when I see you next time at Bedfont.

So as you can see, it's not all harmless joshing, a laugh and a joke.

Human Factor

7th Jun 2010, 09:08

vertigo,

Just spoken to a colleague...

If your colleague reports the details to BA, it will be dealt with.

the flying nunn

7th Jun 2010, 09:22

NS 68

I have no reason to justify my decision to work. I looked through the spin at the facts as they stood, including the acceptance by BASSA that new fleet would go ahead, and voted no. I am not shackled by a heat of the moment decision to vote yes. New fleet was acknowledged by Unite long before anyone withdrew their labour, a much inferior deal to the one offered in October has been agreed in principle so please forgive me if I ask, what are you on strike for and what have your actions achieved? Lastly, if there is another ballot do you expect the same percentage of votes in favor of IA or would you agree that voters will seriously consider what voting on way or another actually means?

ns68

7th Jun 2010, 09:25

But in your last post you mentioned that you are 'putting yourself on the line for others'. This I do not accept as for me people on strike are just making the situation worse.
I and many of my colleagues recognised a fair and reasonable offer back in October, which included an extra ticket and a share option scheme. An offer we would have happily accepted, as well as enjoying our current t&c's.
Therefore, strikers are not doing me any favours, they have just made our offer and situation worsen.

Now,I might agree with you..The strike it is coming to and end with no resolution so it is hard to see the good in it.
I remember reading about that proposal you mentioned but it was never put on the table for us so I had lost track of all of that.
Everybody's intention though for going on strike is to keep what is good out of our job for all of us to benefit.

I understand what you are saying about disagreeing with Industrial action alltogether and I wouldn't dare say that am putting myself on the line for you but most people don't tell you that..it is more like,I would love to strike but I have got a mortgage to pay-I would like to strike but I was sick for a month,I can 't really be off again- I would like to strike but I had a problem with a passenger which is still under investigation,so I can 't risk it.. I promise you these are conversations I have had-no galley talks- and that's what I see it as putting yourself on the line for others.

HiFlyer14

7th Jun 2010, 09:32

NS68

I respect your point of view but I am horrified about your naivety of the facts with regard to the strikers' behaviour on other forums.

But once again, don't read them if they upset you.it 's only words on a laptop screen.

No, it's not. It is Cyber Bullying. It is as bad and as nasty and as childish and as hurtful as face to face bullying. It should be stopped. It has no place in our society or in our community.

Read this government website: Cyberbullying - Laugh at it and you're part of it (http://yp.direct.gov.uk/cyberbullying/)

Access to forum and bassa forums are for everybody. Anybody could have written those messages..

Wrong. The BASSA forum is only for BASSA members. Some of these, including people who voted NO in the online ballot, or others who have expressed a different point of view, have now been banned. Crew Forum only accepts members who advocate the BASSA point of view. I know, because I have been banned from there for holding a different view.

It is absurd that you refute our allegations about CrewForum - yet you have never even been on there. Please do not try and trivialise what is a HUGE and HORRENDOUS problem in our community, when you clearly know nothing about it. Our very own ESS Forum was closed down because of the bullying. What does that tell you about people we share the jumpseat with?

It is shameful and we all have to play our part in stopping it. As it says Cyberbullying - Laugh at it and you're part of it (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fyp.direct.gov.uk%2Fcyberbullying%2F&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dpostr eply%26t%3D409697)

ns68

7th Jun 2010, 09:55

It is absurd that you refute our allegations about CrewForum - yet you have never even been on there. Please do not try and trivialise what is a HUGE and HORRENDOUS problem in our community, when you clearly know nothing about it. Our very own ESS Forum was closed down because of the bullying. What does that tell you about people we share the jumpseat with?

You are making me curious about this CrewForum now:eek:!I am not trying to trivialize anything,I am just not aware it is such a big problem.I really see it just as words on a laptop screen.What can I do? I was just trying to help that person that felt intimidated by saying if it hurts don't read it.You have got the choice.
And I also added to report anything if she wanted to and if it made her feel better.

It is shameful and we all have to play our part in stopping itI play my part in not doing it, but I can't do much more. But on the BASSA forum,I have seen once or twice people telling others to calm down with the offences. It does happen. I don't post on that. But I might start if it helps..I doubt it though,some people have strong views.But I keep on saying that we are free not to look at those. I have decided to skip some people posts on here because they are constantly about us deserving to lose our job-a lot less these past few days I have to admit-but I still prefer not to read about that.It makes me feel bad coming from fellow crew.So I have been trying to take only the best from here..and I have to say there is a lot of good to take.

Basil

7th Jun 2010, 10:25

eye wash removed
I truly hope not. That really is safety sabotage.
You aren't getting at the company or anyone in particular.
The person who needs the eye wash in a hurry could be you or a ground engineer going about his normal duties.
I'm sure that, if indeed this happened, the perpetrator is in a vanishingly small minority.

dave3

7th Jun 2010, 10:40

no one has any proof at who took the eye wash off or even if it happened ,who left notes in jump suits, who left oxy bottles on.. yes crew on the bassa forum are upset.. you have to admit the papers are full of hate for striking crew and they are given to our pax to read everyday... where do you think they are getting their info from??.
All our laundry has been washed in public it has become so embarassing.
we had the wall in water side.. I saw that one with my own eyes..
we could go. on and on and on.. every time a comment is made or a wrong look is given or you go on a forum that you know you will disagree with it will end up with shouting "report it "! "send the police to their doors" "sack them"... You know what is out there so stop reading it if its going to upset you, concentrate on making this work.. if we keep looking backwards we can never move forwards.. we know that negative posts will continue to be placed on the forums.. lets try and turn them into positives..

RadarIdent

7th Jun 2010, 11:31

Further to my previous posts, I have come to the conclusion, by looking at the more moderate tones of some of the strikers that maybe we can get along as one team, sooner rather than later.

However, upon reading D.H's belligerant 'us v BA', I have to say, all those that that are onside with his rants surely should not return to this airline.

These are of course a minority, I just hope BA can ascertain such perpetrators and ensure they are sidelined one way or another.

We cannot move on with threats of IA by these disloyal militants.

mdj01

7th Jun 2010, 12:00

Quote from posting on SLF thread:
"Reading about possible sabotage on the other thread makes me wonder if I should ever fly with these guys again"

This is scary, and should ring alarm bells for us all!

The dispute seems to have denigrated into nothing but a BASSA vs WW (not even BA!) battle now. DH's daily dose of nonsense just seems to confirm that. It is patently obvious that the 'hard core' care nothing about BA's survival and would probably gloat at it's demise.

There are a lot of us whose livelihoods and pensions depend on BA's success. I hope that WW is quick and brutal about getting out the poisonous few, and letting the majority who want to, start rebuilding their relationships.

Newyorker001

7th Jun 2010, 12:05

Hello Dave 3,

First of all thanks so much for putting another side to the coin in a reasonable and honest way. Please stick with it and be prepared for quite a lot of questioning as previously all we have had is soundbites and kids coming along and stamping thier feet.

From what you describe on what you are losing out Im sorry but everyone else at BA has gone through this and accepeted that this is what is needed. That is why most people have a lack of understanding as to why the Cabin Crew should be any different. I dont know any single department within BA that has had to take a hit. From call centres, Management,Sales, Procurement,Engineering and the Pilots. Everyone has looked at the Facts !! and said well, we need to pull together, get through this and see what we can achieve when we get through the other side. Those that have not wanted to do this have either left like Cabin Crew as psrt of a Voluntary redundancy Scheme or left.

I think that is why there is so much Haterd (yes I dont use it lightly) from other departments. This is from a historical and stereotype that Cabin Crew have had, well we cant ask the crew to do something they will just throw thier toys out of the pram. Yes we do all drink coffee and plane spot at Waterworld as well !!

The world has moved on and unfourtaunltly for some crew they are going to have to accept that fact. Some will move on, some will stay. I hope that the small minority that think that BASSA pay thier wages and not BA decide that they have had enough and move on.

If you ask most people what they think of the strike, they are jsut so confused as to why you are actually striking. People within BA just see it as the above and that BASSA as per usual are refusing anything that seems as a reasonable offer as its not any good for them. within the industry, its even worse. Most people I talk to just think we should sack the lot of you and move on. Outside of the industry its mainly the same opinion, I was out with a group of friends at the weekend, none of them work in the industry. Most were asking just the plain Question WHY, they just dont get it.

So Dave WHY?

You must have come across this before, most crew I have asked after 10 minutes just do not know why. Ive heard all the favourites. T5,Price fixing, BA are making the figures up, WW is a maniac and wants to change us into a low cost carrier, WW is a Liar, No one respects crew anymore, We are the hardest working crew in the world, My Bassa rep told me to vote yes and unless I did we would be on the minimum wage ! The list is endless and Im sure more people on here copuld add more.

What I very rarely hear is the actual reason why, some people like yorself are able to put a valid point across. But unfourtuantly you are the smallst minority of all the strikers.

Good luck

clublemon

7th Jun 2010, 13:01

melc

7th Jun 2010, 13:09

I am absolutely horrified that crew who are in a position of looking after passengers safety would do these childish and idiotic things. If anyone has kept the threatening notes or any evidence then I strongly suggest its taken to management. They know who the crew were for these flights and why should they get away with it.

As far as I am concerned they have sabotaged the property of BA and this is a sacking offence - however I suppose thats just adding salt to the mill but its unbelievable that this is going on and they are getting away with it.

They need to be reported before they take it even further - they are obviously crazy and who knows what will be next.

They should never ever be allowed to fly again.

ranger07

7th Jun 2010, 15:46

Recent posts on the other forum (non BA staff) refering to the 'sabotage' issues with regards to it being brought to WW's attention and the police.

RadarIdent

7th Jun 2010, 16:35

Does anyone know why these strikers refer to BA as 'Brutish Airways',and, more to the point, why they accuse WW of being a bully?

What has he done, other than suspend/dismiss those that have been through the disciplinary process, which, if I'm not mistaken is backed by the union?

Or is he a 'bully' simply for standing up to BASSA?

Goprdon

7th Jun 2010, 16:48

Recommended reading:
Why Unite is (not very) appealing to BA shareholders – Telegraph Blogs (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/tracycorrigan/100006053/why-unite-is-not-very-appealling-to-ba-shareholders/)
It will all be over soon.

seats4takeoff

7th Jun 2010, 17:03

Was given a half page spread from Unite saying Brutish Airwaysin the FT this morning from a customer who could not believe it was there.. It was cringing to read and the thing I could not get over was the bit written next to the picture of the 'grumpy' model crew member which read ' posed by model because of the fear of bullying ' !!!!
What about the Unite/Bassa bullying of non unionised and non striking crews ??? What about the cars damaged by these people just because they don't agree that crew have the right to come to work .. Total double standards .... no wonder the public are not behind these strikes ..

LD12986

7th Jun 2010, 17:11

As Duncan Holley has publicly threatened "guerilla tactics" against BA, I would not be surprised if he is called in for questioning about these incidents.

Maddie Baddie

7th Jun 2010, 17:41

I have to tell you about an experience last week.

I operated a flight from LHR on a non-striking day. We were 14 crew in total and after a couple of hours into the flight the strikers had found out who had been on strike or not. 4 of the crew were XXXX. We arrived downroute and 3 of them walked together in a small group. The 4th walked with the rest of us and didn't seem to mind that we had been working during the strike.

We agreed that we would be meeting for breakfast and then head off to an amusement park as it was a long layover. 10 of us, including the 4th XXXX, and all of the pilots turned up for breakfast. The 3 XXXX came and sat at a different table. We asked them if they wanted to join us as 'the more the better' but one of the girls said they didn't want to and then turned around. When we left to head off, they really gave us the evil eyes and I don't even want to think about what they were saying behind our backs. Next day, another guy and I met two of them at the front desk at the hotel. They pretended they didn't see us and didn't bother to greet even though that we said hello to them.

When it was time for pick-up, the three of them sat together. They did not talk to us more than necessarily, not even in-flight. When we had arrived back to LHR, they disappeared quickly without saying good bye.

I still think it was a really good trip as the rest of us, including the pilots, had a really good time!

My point is, I don't think it will be the strikebrakers who are going to be lonely downroute as the strikers like to insinuate. It will actually be the strikers who are going to be lonely unless they allow themselves to socialise with the strikebreakers!

WW Purser

Re-Heat

7th Jun 2010, 17:45

Or is he a 'bully' simply for standing up to BASSA?
The only brutish tactics have been those of the union who are unable to comprehend why anyone would have a contrary opinion to them - 1984 all over again.

UK law is designed to protect the individual and his/her right to make an independent decision in regard to their labour: quashing the ideas of others is childish at best and dangerously totalitarian at worst.

Unfortunately, I doubt someone such as DH would be able to identify his/her behaviour as such. An Orwellian nightmare for many crew it seems.

Pity.

If his retorts to those crew who operated during the strike were based in overwhelming facts, he would at least gain a modicum of respect, rather than ridicule that he faces in any intelligent quarter, such as PPRuNe.

Labelling of those crew as "misguided" without countering with facts and figures is shameful rhetoric, and has no place in modern industrial relations. Unite will clearly have to learn the hard way that ideas and thought cannot be formed by decree from above, but are fertile and alive at the grassroots level.

One hopes that his "guerilla" tactics instead lead to Unite's complete ban, prosecution and removal from representation either at BA or elsewhere. At least then those who want representation can start with a fresh sheet of sorts.

PS - anyone seen the Liverpool docker McCluskey recently? Has Simpson shot him around the back of the shed?

Openclimb

7th Jun 2010, 17:52

The oxygen bottles left running in the bunk area so that they were left empty for the next crew, or the posting about Nigeria being a toilet.

Windows69,

How dare you compare a second hand hearsay comment with the criminal interference with vital safety equipment on board a passenger jet?

No sense of perspective whatsoever.:yuk:

Openclimb

7th Jun 2010, 17:56

Hand Solo

7th Jun 2010, 18:50

No, no, wait! Here's todays installment, maybe it'll answer all your questions?

DAY 20 - DUNCAN’S REPORT BACK
Jun 7th, 2010 by admin

Anxious to avoid the Bedfont burger blues, I got talked into having lunch at the pub across the road today at the Duke of Wellington where the “chicken tikka” wraps came especially recommended by Chris Harrison. Thinking that was a much healthier option than a greasy burger I went for it but was completely undermined in my healthy intentions when it arrived with the biggest pile of chips I have ever seen. Normally I can resist chips but when they are plonked under my nose my resolve breaks and today was no exception. So I ended up eating three times as much as I would have had I stuck to the burger van. I am now in total disgust with myself.

Bedfont was Bedfont - same old faces but again some new ones to freshen the scenery. Before I forget, some pickets asked me to mention the returning PHL crew (who left on Friday) who stopped off to drop off doughnuts etc - much appreciated and proves the spirit is still out there.

Some of the reps went to meet Derek Simpson today to finalise the letter to BA giving notification of a further intention to ballot along with the reasons. The meeting went well and we are expecting an announcement from Len McLuskey at Bedfont on Wednesday around 1 with fuller details.

I think we have all grown weary of BA claims about how they are successfully operating an almost 100% service, blah blah blah and you are probably equally fed up with Union counter claim but below I reproduce a Unite statement issued to the media this morning -

“Day 20 of the strike, which has alone cost BA £140m.

Unite estimates that, despite BA’s vastly expensive and divisive contingency operation, yet again over 40% of BA’s operation has been hit by the strike. Flights to important destinations in the BA schedule, including JFK and San Francisco, continue to fly but with passenger numbers severely down and some flights half empty.

Unite has also been advised that so empty are BA’s planes, they are now looking for volunteer passengers. This is because, as BA continues to seek volunteer crew to break the strike, it is now encountering applicants with no flight experience at all. Volunteers need to have flown in order to become crew, which is why BA are asking them to fly as passengers.

Some flights take off with strange routes - one weekend flight took off from Gatwick, landed at Heathrow, took off again for Edinburgh and eventually landed in Cardiff. As this is not a BA scheduled route, this can only have been an empty plane or a plane carrying novice crew on their inaugural flight.”

STATEMENT ENDS

So despite what BA claim, things are far from rosy. I know for a fact that the 2 BA planes into Calgary last week had nothing but cargo on board and that scenario is being repeated all around the world. Finally

Louise wrote to Billy Bragg to thank him for pitching up at Bedfont on Saturday and got this reply for those interested -

Louise,

Thanks for your kind words. I have had several emails of thanks from your colleagues - even from some who were off on duty elsewhere. I had a great time at Bedfont and found the whole thing really inspiring. I’m so glad I was able to come along and show my support.

Hope to see you at Tolpuddle

all the best,

Billy

I think Billy’s words just about concludes today’s report back - I am due at Watford at an employment tribunal, which is scheduled to go on all day so chances are I won’t make Bedfont tomorrow - I will get someone else to do a report back in preparation for the big send off on Wednesday. Those of you asking about my case - I have my first appeal with the company on Thursday. Looking forward to a day off on Friday when I can reacquaint myself with my tomatoes and perhaps think about starting a diet. I did only say “think” mind you.

Cheers all and good luck tomorrow all those going to the House of Commons to lobby the MPs.

Rgds Duncan

Well, as long as your questions were about what Duncan had for lunch.

Llademos

7th Jun 2010, 19:23

DH Rambled ...

Unite has also been advised that so empty are BA’s planes, they are now looking for volunteer passengers. This is because, as BA continues to seek volunteer crew to break the strike, it is now encountering applicants with no flight experience at all. Volunteers need to have flown in order to become crew, which is why BA are asking them to fly as passengers.

Wrong in so many ways! The VCC need 'practice' passengers on a flight before they can be signed off - this is to ensure they are safe and competent and is, I believe, a CAA requirement. The passengers on these flights are volunteers from the Backing BA list (not VCC) who are subjected to safety demos, food and drink on the flight. The VCC also get in-flight training on safety measures - more relevant than in a classroom. At least they got the route right; I would guess that cost comes into it - Cardiff is probably quite cheap to land at, and the maintenance base does a great lunch and tour. Very interesting and pleasant it all is too!

Ll

DeThirdDefect

7th Jun 2010, 19:45

Unite has also been advised that so empty are BA’s planes, they are now looking for volunteer passengers. This is because, as BA continues to seek volunteer crew to break the strike, it is now encountering applicants with no flight experience at all. Volunteers need to have flown in order to become crew, which is why BA are asking them to fly as passengers.
If our planes are "so empty" and VCC "need to have flown in order to become crew", surely it would be easier and cheaper to put them on a regular scheduled service instead of laying on a special flight for them?

davidexba

7th Jun 2010, 20:02

HiFlyer14

7th Jun 2010, 20:13

Apologies - no PCCC update today because we have better things to do than tell the world what we had for lunch.:cool:

However...I have had my Miss Marple hat on and find this very interesting:

According to DH's ramblings, Billy Bragg was at Bedfont on Saturday 5th June, the first day of this the last block of strike action.

Louise wrote to Billy Bragg to thank him for pitching up at Bedfont on Saturday and got this reply for those interested -

Louise,

Thanks for your kind words. I have had several emails of thanks from your colleagues - even from some who were off on duty elsewhere. I had a great time at Bedfont and found the whole thing really inspiring. I’m so glad I was able to come along and show my support.

So, if people had seen him on Saturday at Bedfont and were now "off on duty elsewhere"....they are non-strikers. Simples.

Ooops. :p

Caribbean Boy

7th Jun 2010, 20:28

Duncan Holley said (thanks to Hotel Mode (http://www.pprune.org/members/9814-hotel-mode)):
Willie Walsh is in Berlin until Tuesday afternoon allegedly at a IATA conference but in my opinion he is more likely to be looking at ways to rebuild the Berlin Wall.Actually, Duncan, Willie Walsh is at the IATA Conference. A little ominously for strikers, he didn't rule out sacking them.
FT.com / UK / Business - Walsh throws down gauntlet to strikers (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f8813716-7230-11df-a0fd-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss)

British Airways chief executive Willie Walsh threw down the gauntlet to striking cabin crew staff on Monday, saying he would hold out against industrial action “for as long as it takes”.

In a sign of BA’s determination to break the Unite union’s stranglehold on the loss-making airline, Mr Walsh told a group of airline industry leaders: “I don’t think we’ve been brave enough in the past to stand up and say ‘No’.”

His comments came as flight attendants staged a third round of five-day strikes. Their action is due to end on Wednesday but the union may ballot cabin crew on further action if no agreement is reached in the dispute.

Speaking at the annual meeting of the International Air Transport Association in Berlin, Mr Walsh said he would not give in. “We’re absolutely determined at BA we are not going to do that this time. We’re going to hold out for as long as it takes and we will continue to build up the amount of flying we’re doing.”

Mr Walsh has deployed an arsenal of weapons since the strikes began in February, including hiring extra aircraft and crew, training volunteer attendants and taking legal action to block the strikes.

But the chief executive implied he might go further. Asked if he could imagine a situation where BA would start sacking striking workers, he said: “Let’s see what happens.”

He continued: “I think the contingency plans we’ve developed have worked very, very well and we continue to build on those. We’re building on the existing plans that we have.”

The union claims an agreement in principle has been reached over the cost-cutting proposals that sparked the dispute, but says the removal of employees’ travel concessions and BA’s refusal to reinstate sacked and suspended workers is blocking a deal.

Mr Walsh disputed this claim. “Travel is not the issue at the heart of this. I made it absolutely clear before the cabin crew even balloted for industrial action that travel concessions, which are non-contractual benefits, are clearly something of value to people in the business and something that is given to reward loyalty and service and dedication of the people in BA.”

Responding to the Mr Walsh’s determination to hold out for as long as it takes, Unite said: “Threats like this suggest BA’s management is getting even more macho. How on earth is this going to deliver a solution to this dispute?”

It said the City would “soon begin to worry about a CEO waging an uncontrolled war without end against his own workforce.”

BA has flown 80 per cent of its long-haul services from Heathrow during the strikes but Mr Walsh said this would rise to 100 per cent if the union took further industrial action.

dontdoit

7th Jun 2010, 22:11

I've just read that FT article. If I had been on strike at any stage, I think I would probably find myself unable to get off the toilet for at least the next couple of weeks.

LD12986

7th Jun 2010, 22:19

Chigley

7th Jun 2010, 23:05

I think most of us have realised for sometime that DH's daily posts regarding the BFC room party are a work of fiction. But it seems as this drags on DH is getting sloppy, today he quotes:

"Before I forget, some pickets asked me to mention the returning PHL crew (who left on Friday) who stopped off to drop off doughnuts etc - much appreciated and proves the spirit is still out there."

I thought PHL was a 3 day trip, which means the thoughtful crew would have left on Saturday - a strike day? :ooh:

Chigley

7th Jun 2010, 23:18

There are quite a few threads on BASSA/Crewforum who seem to think that this strike is having a far greater impact than it is. They really believe that Willie's suggestion that the strike is a failure this week at the IATA conference is just more BA spin.

Well, DH today has mentioned in his daily rant that at "Day 20 - the strike has already cost BA £140 million alone". Considering the 3 day strike in '97 cost BA £120 million (if my memory serves me?) then the evidence speaks for itself............this strike is almost seven times LESS effective. So why not just end it now? :ugh:

Abbey Road

8th Jun 2010, 00:02

Well, here is another drain on Unite's dwindling coffers. And it is likely that there will be similar claims against Unite from other sources, given the level of tripe they have published about BA and those who support BA. Well done Unite! :}

Tory MP accepts damages from union in BA dispute Published on Mon Jun 07 18:42:03 BST 2010

Mark Pritchard, Conservative MP for The Wrekin, has accepted undisclosed damages from the union Unite over "hurtful and untrue" comments made about him on its website, his lawyer have announced. Solicitor-advocate Simon Smith said Mr Pritchard had also accepted a formal apology and reimbursement of all his legal costs "in respect of a libel complaint made against the union behind the BA strike".

The complaint arose out of a bulletin published on the website on March 17 entitled "Come Clean Willie - how many more Tory MPs have their snouts in BA's trough".
It commented on a question raised in Parliament that day by Mr Pritchard, saying he had "viciously and disgracefully" attacked BA cabin crew and also suggested he had been bought by BA.

In an apology which will appear on the union's website, Unite states: "In fact, we are happy to clarify that Mr Pritchard's question in Parliament concerned only the leaders of Unite and made no attack at all on BA cabin crew. "Furthermore, the suggestion that Mr Pritchard had been bought by BA was entirely false and we sincerely apologise to him for this."

In a statement Mr Pritchard said: "Unite's comments were hurtful and untrue. I have accepted their apology. "BA cabin crew are some of the best in the world. I have flown with BA for nearly three decades. I will continue to do so for private and business purposes along with flying other UK carriers."

Copyright (c) Press Association Ltd. 2010, All Rights Reserved.
Tory MP accepts damages from union in BA dispute - National News - Peterborough Today (http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/news/national-news/tory_mp_accepts_damages_from_union_in_ba_dispute_1_648159)

Chesh01

8th Jun 2010, 00:29

ranger07

8th Jun 2010, 06:26

As pressing as the need may be to resolve this, I don't think the company will dismiss any strikers who have participated in industrial action under the current ballot.

However, if there is a ballot for further industrial action, I expect some shots across the bows from BA as to whether CC have protection from unfair dismissal. If the company has given clear written warnings that they don't think that clock has been reset on the 12 week protection period, then they may feel justified in dismissing strikers (with all the adverse PR that will involve) on the basis they have an albeit untested argument for doing so.

Not so sure. Willies' silence is deafening. He's been playing it very cool, despite all the accusations of bullying and name calling, from Ms 'You'll never recognise me wearing this snout to UNITEs 'finest'. I'm sure some time soon, he will pulll the rabbit from the hat.

Been trying to find older posts regarding a poll on the BASSA website. 'Apparantly', some 80 per cent would rather see the company fold than to accept the proposed T&C's.
For curiosity, I'm trying to ascertain the veracity of such a poll and the numbers in order to put this into perspective. Sadly (luckily, I guess) I'm not privy to the forum. Also, of course there would be a percentage whose vote would only be to tow the BASSA line. Can anyone elaborate?

Returning to 'sacking the strikers', I really can not see how we can move on when we have D.H implying a guerilla warfare. It would only need to be a minority that will be enough to affect our future bookings and the long term viabilty of the Airline. Hence, my question re the BASSA forum.

These minorities are those that stick their fingers up to the overwhelming public, the company and everyone else that do not agree with their seventies style garbage.
I state again, I can not see how we can move on with those hell bent on causing us harm.

Watersidewonker

8th Jun 2010, 06:27

Looks like a few vacancies at LHR

BA pilots post shocking, foul-mouthed rants on Facebook over cabin work after breaking strike - mirror.co.uk (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2010/06/08/ba-pilots-post-shocking-foul-mouthed-rants-on-facebook-over-cabin-work-after-breaking-strike-115875-22317731/)

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but CRM going to an all-time low. Enjoy the read.

ranger07

8th Jun 2010, 06:36

Sorry to burst everyone's bubble but CRM going to an all-time low. Enjoy the read.

Why are you bursting everyones' bubble WW?

If that's what's occurring, quite clearly BA will take action, just as they are with other similar cases.

ranger07

8th Jun 2010, 06:38

May I refer you to post 4748, which asks 'why are you on strike?

Thank you

DextersLaboratory

8th Jun 2010, 07:47

Unpleasant reading but little to do with CRM. This shows once again what a disparate bunch of people we have on both sides of the locked door.

I've actually been encouraged reading this forum that non-strikers and strikers have been engaging in honest debate. Only the most extreme elements don't want to see a strong company going forwards. Much as the agitators would like to see otherwise, I still see positives from many of the postings here.

cotswoldchap

8th Jun 2010, 07:56

Are you ever going to post something that contributes to the debate WWW? You never answer genuine questions from people who come from all sections of BA. I rarely post here but have asked you various questions that I genuinely wanted to know the answer to but you have not once replied or contributed to the debate. You just seem to want to poison relations between crew and other sections, in particular the hated pilots. No wonder peoples patience eventual runs out.

As for the Facebook comments reported in the newspaper that you so kindly posted. If true they are disgusting, and at the very least poorly thought out and will probably cause the persons involved serious problems.

Notice that the general reaction from most normal people when shown this will be annoyance at these individuals for posting such idiotic comments on Facebook, and yes, I suspect that will include most pilots. This is because most BA staff are rational, thinking people. They won't jump to defend the indefensible because of primitive tribal loyalties. Compare that with your position on most matters. Even with just a moments reflection surely you can see that your very poorly judged vendetta against BA, Pilots, WW, the world simply isn't rational. Judge things on the merit of each case. Judge people as people not because they have a different profession to you.

We have to try to understand, to build bridges and to make the first steps.
Will you do the same?

gcal

8th Jun 2010, 08:48

Well said Cotswoldchap.
Come on Waterside, how about an answer?

gr8tballsoffire

8th Jun 2010, 09:22

WW
Forgive my cynicism, but I find the idea of a number of pilots posting this kind of rubbish somewhat hard to believe.
Why would they use Facebook as a forum to do so knowing full well the consequences for cabin crew who fell foul of BA regs?
Why would they openly use their names for easy identification?
This has a whiff of BASSA "guerilla tactics" about it. Smear VCC, smear pilots. Seems a bit obvious to me.
On the other hand IF it turns out to be true, the stupidity is staggering and I hope BA will deal with them in the same way that other inappropriate Facebook posters have been.

As an aside this has absolutely no bearing on CRM.

ChicoG

8th Jun 2010, 09:35

Names are named, and BA will start disciplinaries. It's almost perfect actually, because if BA go through the process and sack them, then everyone will see that BA are being fair and even-handed in the disciplinary process, and will wonder what the disciplined strikers got up to, that BA aren't allowed to tell us.

Come on Duncan, why don't you list the charges against your former colleagues?

But I can't see BALPA threatening to strike to protect these pilots, any more than I can see the Mirror doing some similar homework on BASSA members to try and stitch up strikers.

willie.wash

8th Jun 2010, 09:36

GR8...

It might not be cynicism but stupidity as these pilots posted with their names and surnames...
I cannot believe you comment something like that in front of pure evidence.
Take your time to think...

Human Factor

8th Jun 2010, 09:56

If it turns out that these alleged comments are true, the pilots in question will undoubtedly go through an identical disciplinary process to the cabin crew. It can't be any other way and would be an indication to the "wider world" (and in particular to those on their own planet :rolleyes:) that the cabin crew in similar situations are also being treated fairly and within the rules.

i.e. Striking to get the threat of disciplinaries lifted is a non-starter (or, no DH, you can't have your job back).

In addition, now that we have established that fifteen days of strikes in order to get staff travel reinstated have not worked either, what is the strike about now?

:confused::confused::confused:

Human Factor

8th Jun 2010, 10:03

WWW,

If it turns out that the Facebook comments by pilots are true, do you advocate that they are disciplined in accordance with normal BA procedures?

If so, why should the cabin crew undergoing disciplinaries for similar "offences" not be treated the same way? Remember, the strike you so love is taking place in part to ensure that cabin crew are released from the disciplinary procedure.

If not, why should they be treated differently to cabin crew?

Hand Solo

8th Jun 2010, 10:06

Well the comments were boorish and ignorant and they'll probably be disciplined for then. However I didn't see any targetted, specific threats against named colleagues, which is where these fools differ from the facebook fifteen.

gr8tballsoffire

8th Jun 2010, 10:18

WW
Please read my post fully. If, indeed they posted with their full names it is, as you say, stupidity. All too convenient for Bassa to bash pilots and VCC.
As Bassa have a history of missinformation I would caution against gloating too soon.

ranger07

8th Jun 2010, 10:24

BBC News - British Airways cabin crew to meet MPs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10262091.stm)

They apparantly will be telling MPs how they are working in a 'climate of fear!!'

Thought it laughable initially, but thinking about it, they are correct!

They're going to fear that they can not get their own way all the time, they will fear that they have a CEO with the workforce behind him saying 'no more'!
They fear that public support is ever hardening against them.
They fear their militant 'no no no approach' will be challenged.

My only fear at the moment is exactly what they may be saying to the MP's as they are so desperate for backing.

cockpit cxs complete

8th Jun 2010, 10:31

Not the most intelligent thing to post on Facebook. Unfortunatly, I believe, that the Mirror found out about these comments shortly after they came to BASSA's attention. Part of DH's Guerilla war? A deliberate attempt to smear VCC's? Or just a coincidence?

Its sad that it has come to this. Comments that are probably born out of frustration at the length of industrial action with no clear end in sight. I suspect that these people were reported to BASSA by their own Facebook 'friends'.

This will only have an effect on CRM if people let it. You don't have to like the crew you fly with to exercise good CRM. This is a fact often lost on people. CRM is not about group hugs and constantly beating around the bush to avoid offending people. It is Crew Resource MANAGEMENT. It requires people to be mature (on both sides of the door), to communicate, listen, and respect one another. In an ideal world we would all come to work, forget about the IA and just get on with the job. That's not always possible though.

We are all adults (apparently) and should be able to work together. There may be tension and bad feelings because of all the IA but this shouldn't effect the ability to exercise CRM for your own saftey, that of you fellow crew and ,of course, the passengers we carry.

gr8tballsoffire

8th Jun 2010, 10:40

cockpit
My thoughts exactly...healthy dose of cynicism. See my earlier post.

gr8tballsoffire

8th Jun 2010, 10:45

malcolmf

8th Jun 2010, 10:57

If these are truly comments made by BA pilots I despair, but how secure is Facebook? Do we think thathttp://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=100001110820698&ref=ts (http://www.facebook.com/#%21/profile.php?id=100001110820698&ref=ts)
Is the real Andrew Marr?

gr8tballsoffire

8th Jun 2010, 11:57

Proves my point. Don't forget the infamous highjacking of the PCCC page and filling it with hardcore porn. BASSA have a bit of a history with Facebook:)

ns68

8th Jun 2010, 12:12

I have read through some of the comments on the Mirror site and they are full of vitriol clearly posted by BASSA supporters. (It's worth a look.)
If this doesn't turn out to be a DH set up, I'll be extremely surprised

Why don't we just accept that this is the truth and stop blaming others for this?
I really believe this has happened and I think that BALPA has already confirmed that it will support his members through this.So,please stop with the speculation you are making.
I wouldn't be extremely surprised if I was you..No pilot has ever called a passenger a txxt or wxxxxk in front of me, but I can assure you that they don't lose their sleep at night over our customers.

When the new seating was put on our Eurofleet flights, the pilots came dow the back to check them..I said something on the line of how little space they would have had and how unhappy they 'd have been expecially the ones sat in the last row.. Do you know what the answer was? ''OH,THIS IS ONLY A PARIS, I wouldn't worry about it" and he left..These new aircrafts actually go as far as Moscow.My argument was about that not about that specific flight how little do they cared still shocks me when I think about it .. that conversation opened my eyes.

Golden Ticket

8th Jun 2010, 12:29

Nobody needs to just accept it's the truth. Though going on past posting here many will accept anything as truth. If the Facebook posts are true then it's a serious issue which needs to be addressed.

A friend of mine has a son who's Facebook account was used to spread false information about him. There's also no reason this couldn't have happened here. If they're genuine posts then they have to take their punishment.

Seems funny that a group of cabin crew should pay a visit a bunch of self serving money grubbing con artists (MPs) for support.

Speaking to colleagues. I think what is going on at work is no where near either the unions or company's perception. Staff are feeling nervous, anxious and fearful, some at what the company could do and some at what their colleagues could do. The bullying statement is used very flipantly by people. I don't think people realise how serious this is to the individual concerned.Obviously the bullying and harrassment training over the last couple of years has had no benefit what so ever.

flapsforty

8th Jun 2010, 12:35

There are idiot pilots and there are idiot FAs.
They are the exceptions.
There can be smart pilots who suffer a momentary lapse of judgment and there can be sensible FAs who do something very stupid in the heat of the moment.
They too are exceptions.

Most pilots genuinely care about their pax, and most FAs wouldn´t dream of emptying an O2 bottle for nothing.
Could we now please leave off the holier than thou comments & the finger pointing and move on from these matters?

If any of this has happened as described, it proves nothing about either pilots or FAs.

Foolish actions by some are not representative of either the pilot or the FA group.
Using these alleged occurrences as proof that there´s something wrong with either group as a whole, is lazy thinking at best.
The outraged finger pointing does nothing to further this debate.

So give it a rest please.

Hotel Mode

8th Jun 2010, 13:42

Desperate?

Second to last day update …live from Bedfont!
Jun 8th, 2010 by admin

History is a strange phenomenon, in so far as people who are part of it rarely recognize that they are in fact living through it. Often it is only hindsight that gifts us this awareness.

There can be no doubt that with just one day remaining, that this dispute will gain that historical significance. For 22 days a largely middle class, predominantly female workforce stood up to a utterly ruthless, bully of an employer, determined at any cost and at any price to break their spirit. To this end he has failed, we are still here.

Mr. Walsh hasn’t won, but in truth neither have we. But you know what, in not losing against such powerful determination and by our spirit remaining as strong, that in itself is a victory of sorts. Issues still need to be resolved but the bad news for Mr. Walsh is: We are still here and he still needs to resolve them.

The bus for parliament is leaving Bedfont at13:30 today and will be packed with cabin crew going to represent our views to our elected members of parliament.

Tomorrow needs to be a big day, a historic day. It is the last day of 22 days of dispute, we will need your support one last time, to leave this dispute with a lasting memory to go into the history books.

Lenny McCluskey will be on stage at 1300 to announce what happens next

Ken Livingston will be on stage at 1330 to offer his personal support

At 1400, weather permitting their will be a final parade and last chance in this dispute to show the world that we are still proud to be cabin crew. We are proud of who we are and we are proud that we are still here.

If a solution is not found then we will be returning to Bedfont but for this dispute this will be our last day, come and be part of it.

ranger07

8th Jun 2010, 13:54

Lenny McCluskey will be on stage at 1300 to announce what happens next

Ken Livingston will be on stage at 1330 to offer his personal support

What no Arthur Scargill, Derek Hatton? Of course, it is'nt politically motivated is it ?:ugh:

keel beam

8th Jun 2010, 13:55

I think I can safely say, most contributors thought that this strike would have collapsed by now. So well done to those that have stuck it out (even though misguided and the reason for the strike has gone in the mists of time)

But the resovle of the strikers was not 100%.

The reason I say this is because the picket lines were not manned over the full day of operations ie 6am to 11pm. I should not be surprised as (going by some posts and DH's updated news) this was all a jolly day out at the airport. If you are really serious about your dispute, surely you would have picket coverage for the whole day and not just 8ish am to 4ish pm (nearer 3.30ish pm).

What now for the dispute? Any clairvoyants out there?

ChicoG

8th Jun 2010, 14:12

What no Arthur Scargill, Derek Hatton? Of course, it is'nt politically motivated is it ?

Derek Hatton is a property developer in Cyprus. He sells luxury villas.

Another champagne socialist.

Watersidewonker

8th Jun 2010, 17:48

Oh and before I go to answer the question of what this dispute is all about now I think we all know it's imposition.

Bengerman

8th Jun 2010, 18:22

I may have missed it, but what are the tax implications for strikers if Unite is giving them £30/£45 a day and also making available interest free loans?

Surely HMR&C will want their slice, especially of unearned income, will they not also treat an interest free loan as a "benefit in kind"?

I am no tax expert, but I'm sure somebody out there is!

License to Fly

8th Jun 2010, 19:07

Has anyone noticed how quiet the top management at BA have been over the past few weeks, no talking of number of cabin crew working etc etc, just saying the business has enough cabin crew for the planned schedule.

Long-serving CSD's I have spoken too (and there have been lots working through the strikes), that 'know senior people' have said no one knows what is going to happen apart from board level ...

I think June 12th/14th time could be a very interesting time, now that everyone has had to show their colours - whether they are striking or now .... I think WW wanted to know who these people are for a reason

My prediction is new fleet will be running with 2000+ cabin crew operating all the top allowance routes by the end of 2010

Caribbean Boy

8th Jun 2010, 19:11

It's my understanding that in countries such as the UK and Canada strike pay and unemployment pay from trade unions are not regarded as income and therefore not taxable. However, in the US tax is usually paid.

AtlasDrawer

8th Jun 2010, 19:15

BengermanI may have missed it, but what are the tax implications for strikers if Unite is giving them £30/£45 a day and also making available interest free loans?

Surely HMR&C will want their slice, especially of unearned income, will they not also treat an interest free loan as a "benefit in kind"?

I am no tax expert, but I'm sure somebody out there is!
Bengerman:

It was being discussed by some very fed up crew on my flight this morning about the tax implications of strike pay. The girl on my flight said 'her friend' had called HMRC reference the taxation situation on strike pay, don't know if she actually did though.

Another thing that came up today was that many people are waiting till the strike is over to leave BASSA as the people who went on strike, but came back into work think staying in the union will better protect them, if there is any kind of fallout from the strike.

Also had the pleasure of flying with tiramisu the other day, so hi there if you are reading this! Nice to fly with likeminded people.

AD

demomonkey

8th Jun 2010, 19:20

Duncan Holley wrote:

Mr. Walsh hasn’t won, but in truth neither have we

Duncan you're costing BA money, you're costing our passengers disruption and your costing your colleagues lost income. And what for? 22 days of running commentary on your dietary habits. You are a laughing stock Holley. Give up, go home.

This is an interesting short feature on how others in the aviation world are evolving. Sometimes it is good to look outside the BA bubble and realise that our customers have choice: Aviation in the Gulf: Rulers of the new silk road | The Economist (http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=16271573)

These are my views, not those of someone else or organisation.

Snas

8th Jun 2010, 19:34

strike pay and unemployment pay from trade unions does not attract tax.

Juan Odeboyse

8th Jun 2010, 19:36

BA pilots let fly at rude passengers online | News (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23842360-ba-pilots-let-fly-at-rude-passengers-online.do)

Tutt,tutt......as if they would!

Tiramisu

8th Jun 2010, 19:37

Also had the pleasure of flying with tiramisu the other day, so hi there if you are reading this! Nice to fly with likeminded people.

AtlasDrawer,
Likewise, and the pleasure was mine.

I was on a very early standby today with six CSDs and several Pursers, None of us got used, except for one Purser as everyone turned up for their trips. I also met a few crew who had been on strike and decided they'd had enough of BASSA and also needed their pennies. If another ballot goes ahead, I'm not convinced that they'll get the support. Crew may get loans to pay mortgages etc, but at some stage many will have had enough.

Vertigowerty, nice to meet you finally.:)

Juan Odeboyse

8th Jun 2010, 19:40

Funny that Tiramisu, I was talking to four 'virgin xxxx ers' today who were all glad they had a chance to stand up to the bully walsh.

walsh out now.

demomonkey

8th Jun 2010, 19:44

Posted by: Juan Odeboyse (http://www.pprune.org/members/323404-juan-odeboyse) in post 3854
I'm not in Bassa but am on strike so what does that say to you Bridchen?

Now you told us that you're not taking illegal strike action. So want to tell us what's the real deal Juan?

ArthurScargill

8th Jun 2010, 19:50

Now you told us that you're not taking illegal strike action. So want to tell us what's the real deal Juan?

At a guess, i'd say Amicus (or CC89 or whatever they are called ?).
Its a UNITE strike isn't it ? Not just BASSA...

AtlasDrawer

8th Jun 2010, 20:04

Would it not be strange if BASSA ran another ballot for strike and got an overwhelming NO vote? That would be unprecedented.:}

I have spoken to several people who say they are staying in the union just to vote no to the next ballot (if it happens).

Wonder what BASSA would do then? Any thoughts?

AD

Abbey Road

8th Jun 2010, 20:09

Wonder what BASSA would do then?Finally implode? Disappearing up their own whotsits as they do so? As long as the just go far, far away, never to be seen or heard from again. They have certainly left a trail of chaos in their wake ...... :uhoh:

Chigley

8th Jun 2010, 20:09

lisence to fly:

I had been thinking the very same thing, it has been eerily quiet throughout the last 15 days of IA which leads me to believe that something is afoot?

Your observation could also account for BA contacting more temps from the hold pool for immediate starting dates and 11 month contracts. My friend had a call yesterday afternoon and is seriously considering this time as last time she had to decline as it was only for 6 months to cover the strike.

My partner flew with a current temp today who said she has had an email to ask if she wishes to extend her 6 month contract for another 5 months.

Is this to ensure we manage to get 100% of our schedule working if further IA is just around the corner? :hmm::hmm:

Caribbean Boy

8th Jun 2010, 20:12

License to Fly (http://www.pprune.org/members/50068-license-to-fly) said:
My prediction is new fleet will be running with 2000+ cabin crew operating all the top allowance routes by the end of 2010I don't think that New Fleet will have so many crew in just over five months as it's a big project to get done. For instance, I don't know if there are enough trip planners to build the current trips plus those for New Fleet.

Having said that, almost nothing will surprise me as this dispute takes another turn - as it surely will. I don't mind admitting that I have a fascination for how this dispute is developing (I'm struggling to find a more appropriate word at the moment). Who would have predicted seven months ago that Unite would call a 12-day strike over Christmas, that BA would obtain two injunctions but have one overturned by the Supreme Court and win a High court case brought by Unite?

A large part of this fascination is that, unlike 1997 and 2007, I am one of many people who are directly or indirectly playing a part in keeping BA's customers flying. There is also the no small matter of BA's long-term future at stake.

To get back to what may happen: Willie Walsh has stated that he aims to run a full long-haul service if there is another strike. From some pieces of information which have come my way (it helps to have friends in low places), I believe that this could be a realistic plan. There is no doubt that if BA should succeed in operating most or all of its LH flights in a future strike, then Unite would suffer a devastating blow. It takes no imagination to see the effect on strikers at BFC and on the picket lines whenever another 747/777/767 takes off at LHR.

BASSA would be broken, and WW would have won.

License to Fly

8th Jun 2010, 20:12

walsh out now.

I think it will be a few thousand cabin crew out first though .. then Walsh will be out, to Iberia/BA HQ

AtlasDrawer

8th Jun 2010, 20:13

Your observation could also account for BA contacting more temps from the hold pool for immediate starting dates and 11 month contracts. My friend had a call yesterday afternoon and is seriously considering this time as last time she had to decline as it was only for 6 months to cover the strike.

Two friends of mine have had a call today, and I am not sure whether they are going to take it. After all it is a job, and there are not many flying jobs around. A friend of mine at Arik Air has also just been made redundant.

AD

beesflyer

8th Jun 2010, 20:14

JO quotes:
Funny that Tiramisu, I was talking to four 'virgin xxxx ers' today who were all glad they had a chance to stand up to the bully walsh.

walsh out now.

Yeh, walsh out now!! As much chance as South Africa winning the world cup ! Thanks to Tiramisu and like minded CC and VCC we all have a future. I find it interesting that UNITE are paying striking CC £45 PW. Is it a way of getting them used to what they will soon receive on the dole.

License to Fly

8th Jun 2010, 20:22

License to Fly (http://www.pprune.org/members/50068-license-to-fly) said:
I don't think that New Fleet will have so many crew in just over five months as it's a big project to get done.

I totally agree its a big project - i think WW will keep the good PR that BA has in the press and he will not blatantly sack strikers ... there are many other ways to whittle down the current crew (fulfilling all part time requirements /more vol redundancy etc) to make New Fleet bigger.

More CC may then leave when their salary is massively reduced by :
-New Fleet starting with all the best routes going to them
-cabin crew getting used for much less flying, therefore less money

.... and thats before tough performance management makes some people feel like leaving the job rather than getting sacked ...

just my thoughts ... there is something defiantly going on and when i was at Cranebank last week there were alot of young girls walking around without airside passes

Saying that, if BASSA still want to strike, we will be soon at 100% schedule and we will not need any of the strikers

Juan Odeboyse

8th Jun 2010, 20:29

Absolutely brilliant post beesflyer...well thought out, etc.

Thanks to Tiramisu and like minded CC and VCC we all have a future

But WHAT type of future do we have if the bully walsh is allowed to impose at will?? As you know (I hope) most VCC are on a jolly to get away from the desk for a while - panic is steafdily setting into the Waterworld way of life as they now realise the bully walsh has met his match...and hopefully will soon be gone without leaving BA in the same state as he left Aer Lingus.

BAAlltheway

8th Jun 2010, 20:38

Really WWW, Juan et al,

You keep wishing for WW to be ousted, and harping on about how awful he is, but you really have NO idea what you are wishing for.
WW comes from an operational background, he KNOWS what its like to be FC, he has worked with CC, he has worked with schedulers and other operational people.. yet you want him gone..
You will get your wish, he will be gone, to head up TOPCO, and who will you get instead? A finance man. A through and through figures man, bottom line rules. No airy fairy pat on the back, lets do it to be nice.
If you think its going to get easier with Keith in and WW out, you are very very much mistaken. If i were BASSA i would seriously be trying very hard to quickly to get round the table and make a sensible deal with someone whose been in your shoes, or at least damn near them... before that option is taken away. It will indeed be an amusing day when BASSA wish WW was back in charge.

Spanner in the works

8th Jun 2010, 20:43

Lots of comments on that article actually.
Mods removed them all as they were not contributing to the Cabin Crew issue.

Most posts stated that IF the article is true then the Pilots involved should be disciplined as per process. Just like the current CC subject to same procedure.

No problem at all.

Comment enough for you?

cotswoldchap

8th Jun 2010, 20:46

POST 4743. I replied as you requested to the newspaper article. I wonder if you'd care to read the reply, post 4743 and comment or reply in turn?

Mkat

8th Jun 2010, 20:48

Duncan Holley's application to Watford Employment Tribunal for reinstatement was dismissed today. Holley had applied to be reinstated pending a full hearing of his unfair dismissal claim against BA claiming that the sole or principal reason for his dismissal was his trade union membership and activities. He asked the Tribunal to order the continuation of his employment pending a full hearing of his case. BA claimed that the reason for the dismissal was Holley's refusal to go to work when rostered on a number of times in December.
Judge Ryan denied the request saying he felt it was more likely than not that BA would demonstrate at trial that Mr Holley's dismissal was because of his refusal to come to work to perform his rostered duties and his refusal to attend meetings with his manager. Amongst other things he said "The claimant is simply not entitled to take into his own hands the decision whether to work or not".

beesflyer

8th Jun 2010, 20:52

JO, sorry but none of the many VCC I know are doing this " as a jolly " they are doing this because they want BA the company we all work for to continue and to secure their future employment.
I wasn't allowed to go for VCC but had I been able to, my reason would have been exactly the same, and not a jolly. I don't think you realise how much of ground based staff in all areas are against striking CC.

Caribbean Boy

8th Jun 2010, 20:57

Mkat (http://www.pprune.org/members/249354-mkat),

Thanks for the posting, it's exactly what I expected.

Does Unite still think it unfair for BA to sack people like Duncan Holley?

I eagerly wait DH's view on this matter tomorrow.

Spanner in the works

8th Jun 2010, 20:58

Guys (and gals) I think it's about time WW and JO were just ignored.
It's a shame because I think a good honest debate with the "pro-strike" side might help some of understand things a little better.
N68 puts some views across as do others but mainly from a "I voted yes but...." point of view.

NONE of the "WW out" shouters have ever debated without ridiculous claims and one liners based on hearsay.

Runway vacated

8th Jun 2010, 21:01

In a nutshell the tribunal judge has identified the root cause of Holley's obsession with WW. Holley thinks he should be sat at the head table with the big boys, not amongst the hoy-polloi he is supposed to represent. He is too important, in his own mind, to actually listen to the instructions of his employer.

Ironically he is now at the head table, though he is on the menu rather than on a chair!

fly12345

8th Jun 2010, 21:06

Unite has repeatedly moved the goalposts and is not interested in settling the dispute. The union knows our latest offer addresses all the concerns it has raised during 15 months of negotiations and that we have compromised many times in an effort to get a resolution.

Tony Woodley himself has said that our final offer “on many points represents an improvement”.

During these talks, we have:

* offered the partial reversal of crew complements, despite a High Court ruling in our favour
* agreed to future promotions and transfers on current contracts for current crew
* given a written assurance about the allocation of routes and aircraft between fleets
* given assurances to protect the pay, terms and conditions for our current crew
* changed our position on pay to guarantee RPI rises for two years, on top of increments
* agreed to the return of staff travel to crew who went on strike, subject to certain conditions

I know many of you who came to work were disappointed that we moved from a permanent staff travel ban for those who took action. But a permanent ban will happen if the union engages in further strike action.

I do not believe the union is genuine when it says it wants meaningful talks to enable these strikes to be called off, especially in view of its plans for a fresh ballot to enable more strikes later in the year.

This is a fair deal and it remains available. There are no more compromises that we can make and we cannot lose sight of the fact these changes are to ensure our future sustainability.

willie.wash

8th Jun 2010, 21:11

Spanner in the works.

Why don`t you say something interesting then?!

You cannot encourage people to ignore what we write here as you are not the moderator...

Everything said was actually reported on national newspapers...maybe it`s time for you to reconsider what you written on previous ads.

Tomorrow, another day, another Ba`s story.

screwdriver

8th Jun 2010, 21:22

Licence to Fly

Your last two posts are so very near to the reality. Expect BA to ramp up training of VCC and NF crews. Any future IA will be an irrelevance as LH will be at 100%.:D

avaitor

8th Jun 2010, 21:38

Beesflyer, just to correct you on a small point, the Unite payment is not "£45pw"as you state in post 4782, but actually £45 per day on strike.

MrBernoulli

8th Jun 2010, 21:49

And I would be very surprised to hear that this payment is tax-free, as claimed earlier on this thread! It is income - HMRC will have their slice.

flybymerchant

8th Jun 2010, 22:16

Juan Odeboyse.....But WHAT type of future do we have if the bully walsh is allowed to impose at will??

and Watersidewonker.....
Oh and before I go to answer the question of what this dispute is all about now I think we all know it's imposition.

Come on boys, keep up!

The British High Court ruled unequivocally that the 'imposition' by British Airways was not only necessary due to its dire financial state, and restrained & proportionate considering the burden, but also absolutely required for BA's survival as BASSA had deliberately scuppered negotiations for OVER a year while the company was bleeding MILLIONS OF POUNDS every day due in no small part to CC community inefficiency and refusal to modernise!

Oh, also the minor point of the entire court case and of course your entire strike.......was the 'imposition' contractual? If it was, it needs union approval/agreement.

As the High Court found that it was NOT CONTRACTUAL, BA can change the crew config as much as it likes in a sort of management-type-of-thing way, with absolutely no reference to the union.

Your strike is pointless and meaningless and disgraces a once proud community, and I'm not just talking about CC.....we have ALL been shamed and damaged by bassa's inexplicable act of childish & selfish vandalism

So, where will it all end?
14th June I believe that Willie Walsh will announce a New Contract for ALL cabin crew who wish to be employed in BA beyond the 3 month mark.

Anyone who signs (and there will be an incentive to sign soonest) will be on the new contract immediately. Anyone who refuses is legally deemed to have left the company...no severence pay, no come-back.

Let us all hope that the New Contract honours some of those things that Willie has been promising to address in the previous offers, for example guaranteed travel payment.

It would be a crying shame if the good and brave cabin crew members who have come to work in the face of all this stressful, one-way intimidation by strikers, and who have supported and backed BA, lose out on the chance of the fair and decent contract that BA have been trying to offer all along.

Good luck out there guys. I'll bet that around 1000 strikers will not sign the contract; an eventuality that we all suspect Willie is already prepared for, as evidenced by his keenness to recruit into a workforce that already seems oversubscribed at present numbers, even without the great DHs 20 hrs/year productive labour.

ns68

8th Jun 2010, 22:23

Licence to Fly

Your last two posts are so very near to the reality. Expect BA to ramp up training of VCC and NF crews. Any future IA will be an irrelevance as LH will be at 100%

It will always be relevant if the flights are not busy.You all have constantly concentrated on the amount of flights going out and never considering the loads.
It is very false economy. Unfortunately for all of us-(if I will still be having my job as according to a lot of people on here I will be shown the door very soon..)
this is the case.The flights are not full and forward bookings are what they are.Instead of praising a 100% departure rate,you should concentrate on the loads.That is where the money are. No,on a number of take off and landing.
As a PR move..I suppose it makes some people happy,but it never convinced me.The last flight I did had about 10 people on the way out and half on the way back..and I promise you I am not saying this with a smirk on my face,I was quite sad about it.It opened my eyes on how serious the situation was.

I am expecting replies were I will be told the opposite: my flight was full,all the flights I did were oversold and overbooked..Don't worry,I have asked dispatchers what the situation was,as I didn't want to judge just by the loads on my specific flight but what I was told wasn't reassuring.3 passenger on a HKG flight? Only flightcrew positioning on a Bahamas flight? I know these might be singular episodes but my view remains the same.Whoever is cheering about the 100% operation..should look into other things as well.

As far as VCC are concerned,etc let's hope that no more stories like today arise.I was trained for 6 weeks,most of which was customer service training..about the brand,about our customers, about what's right and what's wrong onboard,about challenging situations that might arise when at 35000ft,so much I learnt,it is unbelievable..and silly me for thinking it was a fundamental part of the job.Pilots are having a 3 day training as VCC which doesn't involve any of it..no wonder stress got to them on that particular flight advertised on papers today..It is afterall a customer service role.
So,I would think twice about VCC as the way forward..but it's only my opinion.

wiggy

8th Jun 2010, 22:26

It would be a crying shame if the good and brave cabin crew members who have come to work in the face of all this stressful, one-way intimidation by strikers, and who have supported and backed BA, lose out on the chance of the fair and decent contract that BA have been trying to offer all along.

Amen to that, but I'm not sure UK employment law will allow the non-strikers to be favoured...

we have ALL been shamed and damaged by bassa's inexplicable act of childish & selfish vandalism

Indeed we have, the brand has been thoroughly trashed and it's going to be an uphill struggle for everybody in BA for the forseeable future.

fly12345

8th Jun 2010, 22:28

Ns68, easy accept the offer and carry on doing what you do best.
Personally I think the latest offer is fair and acceptable.

Spanner in the works

8th Jun 2010, 22:31

Willie.Walsh quote:

Spanner in the works.

Why don`t you say something interesting then?!

You cannot encourage people to ignore what we write here as you are not the moderator...

Everything said was actually reported on national newspapers...maybe it`s time for you to reconsider what you written on previous ads.

Tomorrow, another day, another Ba`s story.

WHy don't "I" say something interesting? Like what? Read my posts. I have asked for clarifications of your side - as have many others.
Whether my posts are "interesting" or not is immaterial. I am asking for you and JO (and others) to put some meat on the bones of the "WW out" shouts.

I can encourage people to ignore what are blatant trolls intent on only stirring rather than contributing meanfully. It's up to them what they do - my opinion, their decision.

Just because something is said in a newspaper makes it "fact" eh?
Anyway - you obviously don;t read the content of other's posts as I said quite clearly - "IF the newspaper reports are correct, then the accused involved will be subject to the same disciplinary procedures as everyone else.
What's the problem?

As for the last bit about me writing BA's Ads.....I'm sorry - either I have missed something I did in a previous life or I just cannot decipher your appalling English.

Over to you - not that you will read this post and respond to anything in it.
You will just notice that I HAVE replied, and retort with some meaningless rhetoric.

Which is kinda my point really.....