OFFICER and AIRCREW 'CANDIDATES' PLEASE READ THIS THREAD FIRST! [Archive] - Page 4

Bearcat F8F

1st Mar 2013, 16:53

Hi guys,

My dream has always been to become a fighter pilot. I know this may very well be beyond my control even if I get accepted into the RAF, however, I have a little problem to start with.

I've been to the careers office and had a meeting with a Wing Commander. I'm currently in my final year of a BEng Aeronautical Engineering degree. I was told that I have not done enough activities such as hill climbing/ walking and other team activities of that nature. During my time at university I basically spent all my free time working like crazy in a removals company and I now have a PPL with 90 hours total time + a few hours in gliders as a result of all that hard work.

The Wing Commander said that as things stand I do not have enough of that hill walking stuff experience that they are looking for and apparently my many hours of work in a removals company doesn't show stamina and teamwork. I also go to the gym and swimming pool regularly but apparently that's not enough also.

Currently in 4th year with lots of course work and 2 projects, I simply can not afford to go and join a university club, be it hill climbing, formula student or whatever. I know that as things stand I will not get accepted (that Wing Commander will be on the hiring committee). Is there anything I can do once I finish university in a few months to increase my chances? I was planning on just finding a job in engineering ASAP but I'm not sure any of the above points could be addressed by doing so.

I was told that the pilot position will open again in a few months. I am a bit concerned though about my situation and feel it would be extremely unfair as I've spent every spare second over the past 4 years working really hard so that I could fund some flight training in case things with the RAF don't work out, and as a result it seems my chances are significantly lower with a PPL, glider time, removals work (and a technical interpreter job that I did for a month) compared to someone with the same degree as me but with 4 years of experience with a university club of some sort.

Suggestions welcome. Thanks.

Pontius Navigator

1st Mar 2013, 17:09

I think you have answered your own question. Even 4 months undertaking arduous pursuits would only be seen as a box ticking exercise unless you get a startling degree and prove that you spent 4 years in productive study.

Even so, finding some arduous team pursuits rather than solitary gym sessions and swimming can't hurt.

lj101

1st Mar 2013, 17:32

Bearcat

Not sure of the process now but at the careers office i happened to be in when i was recruited, it used to be a Flt Lt that did the interview and put you forward to Cranwell for the selection process.

Are you saying its now a Wg Cdr that was doing the selection for going to Cranwell and hasn't supported your application? If you're at an early stage, can you apply at a different career office?

Bearcat F8F

1st Mar 2013, 18:01

lj101, it was just a "chat" that I had with him, nothing more. He did however say that he is on the hiring committee and I will see him again if I get an interview. So presumably, the answer to your question is yes.

Pontius Navigator, well, he did urge me to join something now and it will make a difference, so I presume he hadn't just seen it as a box ticking exercise. The biggest issue for me is of course that I simply can not do it due to the lack of any available time.

So I was curious as to whether I could do something after university to increase my chances.

lj101

1st Mar 2013, 18:24

He won't be on every committee and surely you can fit in a bit of hill walking occasionally to make a true statement of extra activities as requested.

I would apply via a different career's office and don't forget the RN have fighter pilots too.

Pontius Navigator

1st Mar 2013, 18:38

Bearcat, the box tick refers to doing something between Uni and applying. It would show lack of capacity as you would only be doing one thing at a time rather than keeping several balls in the air at the same time.

Your phrase 'hiring committee' puzzles me. It is not a committee but a board. Always was, always is. It now consists on two members, a chairman and an assistant. They used to be a wg cdr and a sqn ldr. Now they can be a flt lt chairman and a sqn ldr or wg cdr assistant depending on their experience in the role. There will be several boards sitting at the same time testing the different syndicates. There will then be a board president over the individual boards. Again the rank depends on experience and could even be a flt lt.

Trust me, the candidate who has a broad spectrum of experiences and activities and achieves a 2.2 can be more suitable than one who achieves a 1st at Cambridge. I have trained both and the former both qualified as aircrew and got his own sqn 10 years later and gp capt shortly after that. Actually I don't think he even got a 2.2.

muppetofthenorth

1st Mar 2013, 18:46

A Wg Cdr at a careers office? Doesn't sound right. Never saw anyone higher than F/L there and only ever saw Wg Cdr during reviews at OASC, post-tests.

Anyway, if you join clubs after uni you'll be asked why you didn't join any during uni, you'll be asked why you didn't join the UAS and any other societies going and unless you get a very high First they won't really buy the 'concentrating on my studies' line - consider that unfair if you wish.

Fact is you'll be up against hundreds of applicants who also have degrees but masses of extra curricular activities, be it Football, Rugby, Hockey, Skiing, Harry Potter Society or Tiddlywinks... what do you have to make yourself stand out against them?

They will also ask you, unfairly or otherwise, if you thought you were managing your time effectively if you had no time available for any of these activities.

Like it or not, the RAF/Armed Forces in general want rounded individuals with many and varied experiences. If you can't offer them that, they'll go elsewhere.

Many will also tell you the PPL was useless for an RAF application, so be aware of that.

lj101

1st Mar 2013, 19:04

I almost never get drawn into stupid keyboard wars over the internet and especially PPRuNe. However given my passion for both flying and the BA FPP, I would like to say that you stand next to no chance of getting anywhere with that mindset IMO.

For a start most of us wannabes are mostly concerned about how to even get a foot in the door of commercial aviation, never mind about the quickest way to make captain. I suggest you be realistic and stop dreaming. And above all, try to understand the amazing opportunity you get with BA.

If you see this as merely a stepping stone to making captain as quick as possible, you can try Ryanair instead. They make captains relatively quickly there.

Bearcat mate

Are you sure you always wanted to be a fighter pilot?

Melchett01

1st Mar 2013, 19:40

A Wg Cdr at a careers office? Doesn't sound right. Never saw anyone higher than F/L there and only ever saw Wg Cdr during reviews at OASC, post-tests

Sounds like a Regional Careers Liaison Officer or whatever they are called these days. I applied for a Cadetship whilst at school doing A-Levels and my application was processed by a sqn ldr RCLO and when I applied for direct entry at university, it was processed by a retired wg cdr.

The 'hiring committee' is, I suspect, the wg cdr performing an initial filter interview, producing a report equivalent to that done in the AFCO and sending it off to OASC for them to make a decision as to whether to call Bearcat forward.

It's all about how you sell yourself. If you do a demanding degree, with lectures 9-5 and a stack of coursework, of course it's going to be harder to get fully involved in extra-curricular activities than if you are doing under-water basket weaving. It's no different to a guys on a busy sqn not having time to do secondary duties, whilst some of those in SHQ whose job is done by 10am each day have a raft of them. How many times have we all 'sold' the boss / deskie a line when questions about a lack of secondary duties were aske?

If this wg cdr can't differentiate between the relative requirements of different degrees, then it sounds as though he is being a little harsh. Of course, if Bearcat were thinking outside the box, he would realise this wg cdr was a likely risk to a successful application and he would put in a plan to mitigate the risk i.e. go to an AFCO in the high street where every Tom, Dick and Harry is being processed and an Eng degree might be a bit out of the ordinary.

Alternatively, I could be harsh and say serves you right for doing an Eng degree. Geography was the de facto choice on my UAS precisely because it gave you enough time to do other things the RAF would appreciate - like fly, drink and chase girls :ok:

Pontius Navigator

2nd Mar 2013, 08:58

MOTN, I see you posted just 8 minutes after me so I won't claim plagiarism :) but it should show Bearcat that Ppruners from entirely different ends of the age spectrum are singing from the same hymn sheet.

Lj101 has also shown how your dedication does not seem as deep seated as you would have us believe. OASC read this thread and even though you are hiding behind a pseudonym they can often spot at interview a Ppruner wanabee.

Bearcat F8F

3rd Mar 2013, 21:27

Thanks for the replies.

It was a Wing Commander - a Regional Careers Liaison Officer.

Lj101 has also shown how your dedication does not seem as deep seated as you would have us believe. OASC read this thread and even though you are hiding behind a pseudonym they can often spot at interview a Ppruner wanabee.
Well, there are many details of my circumstances that you, nor anyone else is aware of on this forum... because its a forum :ok:

I find it extremely difficult to believe that anyone in the RAF will base their decisions of a person solely on a forum conversation, which by nature can not take into account the full scope of an individual's circumstances.

But anyway, I appreciate where you are coming from in terms of not being able to do activities at the same time whilst at university. I see what you mean now when you say it's a "box ticking exercise". As I've explained before I was working practically 7 days a week along with all university course work and lectures, meetings etc. There was simply zero chance of me fitting anything else in.

I think if you knew me, you'd be hard pushed to find someone as keen as me on fighters (aircraft in general, but especially fighters). I am well aware that every 2nd person says this though. I don't really care or expect you to be convinced.

For the record, I never said my dream is to join the RAF. I said I've always wanted to be a fighter pilot. If you are basing your skepticism of my desire by reading the questions that I have asked, then technically speaking, your judgement is irrelevant as the issue which I have outlined concerns my legibility of joining the RAF.

I am not prepared to gamble everything I have on making it into the RAF and sacrificing other potential income which could greatly benefit me in obtaining an airline job in the future. I am happy to fight for survival in the commercial segment... which I suspect is the way it will most likely turn out.

muppetofthenorth

3rd Mar 2013, 22:29

For the record, I never said my dream is to join the RAF. I said I've always wanted to be a fighter pilot.

So, remembering that when joining the RAF you do as 'Pilot' and you stand equal chance of getting FastJet, MultiEngined or Rotary, what would you do then?

If your goal in joining the RAF is purely to fly 'fighters' - as your general jist seems to imply - then what would you do when confronted with a contract for minimum service of 12 years and the only slot available is for Rotary?

If you're not prepared to do that, forget the Forces right now; it's the only sensible choice.

Pontius Navigator

4th Mar 2013, 06:38

I find it extremely difficult to believe that anyone in the RAF will base their decisions of a person solely on a forum conversation, which by nature can not take into account the full scope of an individual's circumstances.

No of course not, that would be a complete nonsense. No, the point is that you make certain statements in a certain way on the forum. OASC staff may well have read these and may remember some gems.

During interview you, as the interviewee, have very limited scope for controlling the interview as you will want to be as open and candid as possible. You would be surprised at how thorough the interview can be and it will probe areas of your life that you will have long forgotten. You will be surprised.

On your wg cdr, the RLO is a retired officer serving as a civil servant and I don't think is in the recruiting loop at all, except a little more than we on pprune are.

Bearcat F8F

5th Mar 2013, 15:34

On your wg cdr, the RLO is a retired officer serving as a civil servant and I don't think is in the recruiting loop at all, except a little more than we on pprune are. Really? He definitely said that he will be on the interview board (or something along those lines) and he will ask me about what I have done since the last time that we spoke. So I assume he must be in the loop somehow?

So, remembering that when joining the RAF you do as 'Pilot' and you stand equal chance of getting FastJet, MultiEngined or Rotary, what would you do then?

If your goal in joining the RAF is purely to fly 'fighters' - as your general jist seems to imply - then what would you do when confronted with a contract for minimum service of 12 years and the only slot (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=7724757#) available is for Rotary?

If you're not prepared to do that, forget the Forces right now; it's the only sensible choice. Yes exactly. I would still be unbelievably happy to fly anything I got offered. Preferably not rotary, but even with rotary I would be happy.

My main concern was that if I was to try and do everything I can now to increase my chances of joining the RAF (i.e. joining some hill walking club at university whilst I'm still a student there), I could potentially sacrifice a better degree which could get me a good job which in turn could pay for the rest of my commercial pilot training and maybe land me an airline job one day. If I knew for a fact that I would join the RAF by sacrificing a better degree, I would. But I don't know that. Hence I'd rather concentrate on my degree for now.

Pontius Navigator

5th Mar 2013, 18:04

Bear, while we have focussed on your particular activities at University we haven't mentioned what you did before University. Things like the DoE scheme, your time and activity in the ATC, the team sports and activities you undertook at school.

On the person you spoke with, RLO may have been the wrong title you picked. My daughter certainly visited universities and it may have been a wg cdr on a liaison visit to the university. That is certainly possible so that what you said is indeed true, sorry we missed that inference.

You may meet him again at Cranwell, on the other hand you may equally be in a different syndicate.

BTW, while my interview was decades ago, my training was not and my daughter even more recent, curiously only one question has been dropped (too difficult) and a couple substituted.

Bearcat F8F

5th Mar 2013, 23:34

Pontius, interesting! However I don't really think it will be worth my time or their time if I decide to go ahead with the process the way things stand. I'm pretty sure I will get told the same thing (not enough group activities).

It's a shame though. I love flying, I love gliding and I am absolutely addicted to aerobatics. I've also spent a huge part of my life reading/ learning about air combat and aviation/ history to an extent that no other 21 year old that I have met so far, has. I know a few people from the UAS and I can not see even 30% of the sort of desire that I possess. Actually I never got accepted to the UAS. I don't know their reasons for the decision they made... but I do know one thing in the interview that I may have screwed up (not 100% sure though). It was at that point that I decided to save up and do a PPL.

So unless they plan on asking me in the interview about advantages and disadvantages of WVR combat of Eurofighters and Su-27s, which I highly doubt, I reckon I don't stand a high chance because I will not be looked at as a "well rounded individual".

Pontius Navigator

6th Mar 2013, 08:11

See PM .

Libertine Winno

6th Mar 2013, 11:37

@ Bearcat,

To give you at least some idea of what it takes to be a fast jet pilot, a friend of mine is a Typhoon pilot and was in the Air Cadets, UAS, was a gliding instrutor before he could even drive and went through Uni with the RAF.

Added to this of course was his basic aptitude (one of those who seemed to be good at everything!) which, if you haven't got, will scupper any chances of aircrew of any description, let alone fast jet.

Remember, this is little boy's dream job so there are thousands of potential applicants. DO NOT be put off applying because of that, but just be aware that is the kind of standard you will be up against. A 4 year BEng degree will be great if applying to design the planes, but is only a tiny detail if you are applying to fly them!

Bearcat F8F

9th Mar 2013, 09:57

Libertine Winno,

Thanks. I don't think I am under any illusion as to the difficulty both physically and psychologically that the job entails. From personal experience of aerobatics, I can only imagine the sort of work load required from a fighter pilot in a dogfight scenario, not counting all other aspects of the flying involved.

I do believe something like only 7% of all aviators have what it takes to fly fighters, of which a much smaller % actually does. I am not saying I'm one of them, but I don't doubt my abilities either. I am happy for the RAF to make the call if I ever make it within the next 4 years.

Pontius Navigator

25th Mar 2013, 21:42

Just seen the latest Cranwell graduation list. Just 23 officers and a third are for ATC. With the continued reduction in the number of airfields one wonders why we need so many ATCO.

Melchett01

25th Mar 2013, 23:15

You sure it's not Air Training Corps?

cjordans75

28th Mar 2013, 23:28

Evening chaps,

Standard question - is there any hope of pilot recruitment re-commencing in 2013? Sorry to clog up this thread with another wannabe's blight.

I applied when I was 17 and after OASC it was suggested I get some life experience. I have since gained a degree and worked on oil rigs, but always with the focus of returning to try again. Damn the defence spending cuts!

I am now 24, so its getting towards last chance saloon.

Anyway, if someone has some genuine knowledge of when the pilot trades may open up it would be great to hear from you.

Cheers
cjordans75

airborne_artist

31st Mar 2013, 17:08

cjordans75 - applying to the Royal Navy would be your only realistic option right now.

CheapAsChips

1st Apr 2013, 07:51

cjordans - I understand that pilot recruiting will start again later this year with entry into officer training from next April. You will need to register with the RAF Careers Info line to make sure you are in with a shout. Details can be found at www.rafcareers.com (http://www.rafcareers.com). Good luck!

PBI

1st Apr 2013, 21:40

The first three pilots begin IOT this month.

wannabe_

5th Apr 2013, 09:51

Hi there

Like so many others I've had my heart set on being an RAF pilot from a very young age. I'm a 2nd year UAS cadet and was over the moon after recently passing the Aptitude test for Pilot.

Unfortunately since the summer of 2011 I've suffered from a shoulder dislocation/ subluxation on two occasions. I have made the decision not to get these incidents treated due to the concern that the RAF would rather take on a candidate who hasn't suffered from shoulder instability.

However recently I have realized that I may need to seek medical treatment as my shoulder will only likely dislocate again in future (with more ease).

The reason i'm posting on here is in the hope that some advice from people with any knowledge of the area i've talked about, may help me to reach a decision on whether to continue to hide the problem or whether to seek treatment (and likely surgery). A simple answer of 'going to see what your GP thinks' isn't going to help as a visit to the GP will result in this problem being put on my medical records permanently.

Thanks in advance.

cjordans75

6th Apr 2013, 21:59

Thanks for the messages.

I have since been into the careers office, and was quite suprised to hear that pilot recruitment was meant to begin on 1st April (I did question the April Fools!) but has been delayed and they think it could be any day now.

I then signed up for the Info Line as suggested by CheapAsChips. However, when I spoke to the call centre chap they said pilot recruitment wont be until 2015... a conflict of knowledge there somewhere.

Either way, I can but hope. And in the mean time, the running shoes are getting a good workout.

MrFlibble

6th Apr 2013, 22:50

Go to your doctor, get it treated, and let the medical people decide if it's serious enough to warrant considering on your application.

The alternative is to not tell them. At which point your shoulder could dislocate during PT, or a field leadership exercise on IOT. Or during flying training - or on ops - in control of an aircraft, when you could put yourself (or others) in danger.

It might be something that can be fixed, and if corrected might not even be an issue for a Medical board. But even if it is a problem after being fixed up, you should get it checked and be honest. The alternative isn't ideal, imo.

Pontius Navigator

7th Apr 2013, 08:02

The alternative is to not tell them. At which point your shoulder could dislocate during PT, or a field leadership exercise on IOT.

I suspect should your problem reoccur at this point a medical discharge would be highly probable. You would be untrained, non-commissioned, and effectively a cheaper option to discharge. You would probably get medical treatment to stabilise you but not much else.

I know an airman aircrew applicant that got shin splints; that was what happened to him.

BlakeyC1

13th Apr 2013, 18:12

Hi,

I'm currently looking into becoming an RAF pilot, piloting is a career path that has amazed me since I was a young boy and I guess that dream could possibly become a reality one day (provided I keep working my ass of to get there). I recently heard that all RAF recruitment has been on a bit of a stand still for a while now but that the RAF may possibly be recruiting again in the next couple of years. This does not worry me as I still need to get my degree (i'm in college at the moment) so I've got a few years anyway.

I'm friends with a few Ex-Squadren leaders who flew during the Gulf War and they said they couldn't recommend the career path highly enough for me, I'm currently training to get a PPL you see and I just love it, any career which will pay me to be in the air sounds too good to be true.

Is it really as competitive as they say? I hear it's a lot easier for Cadets to get into the RAF, unfortunately my parents always assumed the Aviation dream was just a phase for me so I was never allowed to join the Air Cadets. I'm currently sitting my AS-Levels in Chemistry, Biology, Computing and German. I got off to a rocky start in those AS Levels but that was due to some issues I was having with my family, that's all sorted now and I'm back on track and looking to get possibly an A and 2 B's (definitely not going to pass German) I'll then carry on these AS-Levels to A2 and aim to get even better results. Would you say that'd be enough to get through the paper sift?
It's 2 C's or above but given how competitive it sounds I guess i'll need much higher than 2 C's.

Both of these Ex-Squadren leaders said a 4 year degree is ideal, this is something i'm planning on doing anyway as it'd be a great experience for me, I'm looking at a software development course but I'm open to suggestions, which courses would you say are the best for someone looking to get recruited into the RAF?

Also, should things in my A-Levels not pan out as i'd hope i'll be going back and sitting a Level 3 btec in Software development which is apparently equivalent to 2 A-Levels, this is just a backup plan but would that be enough?

As for health and fitness i'm completely healthy and fit, I was born with an issue on my bones called hereditary multiple extoses which basically are just bone tumours, they've stopped growing and are just lumps on a few of my ribs, that in no way inhibit any bodily functions. I don't see this as being an issue and neither does my family, any thoughts?

Also would having a PPL and a lot of flying experience be beneficial to my application or does it not have any effect?

lj101

13th Apr 2013, 20:32

Blakey

Multiple Hereditary Exostoses produces bone deformities, shortened stature, bony growths, limb length discrepancies, and tumors. Symptoms also include difficulty moving joints, loss of motion, and fatigue. MHE can stretch or compress nerves, causing motor and sensory difficulties and pain; irritating muscles and tendons, and creating severe fatigue in the person afflicted. The tumors associated with MHE can cause an array of additional issues.

Without wanting to dash your dreams, why not ask at the RAF careers office as to their advice.

Pontius Navigator

13th Apr 2013, 20:39

I'm currently training to get a PPL

Shows keenness and commitment but what will be significant is how you financed this.

Is it really as competitive as they say? No it is more competitive than that :)

Would you say that'd be enough to get through the paper sift?

The paper sift removes those below the minimums. Higher grades just makes you potentially more competitive but what really counts is your personal qualities, aptitude, medical fitness and leadership skills.

I'm looking at a software development course

A degree is a degree but the quality is also important, a 2.1 in a science subject may be seen as more suitable than a 1st in underwater basket weaving.

I was born with an issue on my bones called hereditary . . . bone tumours,. . . . I don't see this as being an issue and neither does my family, any thoughts?

No one here can give you any positive guidance on your medical condition, that is up to the docs at OASC. What is true though is that someone who is 100% is seen as less of a risk than someone who is 99%.

Also would having a PPL and a lot of flying experience be beneficial to my application or does it not have any effect?

None whatsoever, see above.

Good luck.

airborne_artist

14th Apr 2013, 11:17

I hear it's a lot easier for Cadets to get into the RAF, unfortunately my parents always assumed the Aviation dream was just a phase for me so I was never allowed to join the Air Cadets.

This is not really true. It may be easier for an air cadet to acquire some of the knowledge, skills and experience but former air cadets are certainly not given an easier ride at OASC.

A well-used time at university that incorporates a challenging degree, ideally science-based, plenty of personal/leadership development (UAS/URNU/OTC or sports/outdoor clubs etc) and some voluntary work would be close to ideal but still no guarantee of a pass.

Melchett01

14th Apr 2013, 15:40

Wannabe,

Sorry to dash your hopes, but I would suspect that without some form of corrective surgery and then a review by the med board at OASC, you might be seen as too much of a risk. And when the intake is as low as it is, anything that makes you stand out as a risk will count against you.

I speak from experience having dislocated my shoulder 3 times. After investigations the surgeons decided against operating as it would cause more damage and a longer recovery time than if they did nothing other than pack me off for physio. Whilst I avoided the hassle of surgery and a long recovery, I now have a marker on my medical records - something they do when there is a point of interest that needs monitoring.

I wouldn't say doing nothing is not an option, but I think in the current climate you may find your application is a protracted one, with a lot of waiting whilst they decide how much of a risk you might be to an expensive aircraft and its crew / passengers.

Pontius Navigator

14th Apr 2013, 18:02

Just thought I would throw some numbers up to gauge the competition.

In 1961 the UK Male population was around 25 millions, the RAF was 158,000 and the officer aircrew intake was around 1,500 per year.

In 2011 the UK population was around 63 millions (women are now equal with men). The planned strength of the RAF is 33,000 by 2015.

The UK eligible population has increased by two and a half. The size of the RAF has shrunk by about 5 times. The competition appears to have stiffened by 12.5 times, but in reality the number of aircrew needed has reduced even more.

Education requirements now include A-levels and the candidates presentation at OASC is stiffer. The best will continue to be accepted but the good of yesteryear may not be good enough for pilot.

mymatetcm

14th Apr 2013, 19:24

10 pilot slots this year allready 1500 apllicants in the mix

sljmaster

26th May 2013, 21:53

I've looked all over the internet for this and can't find it, and it's probably not worth me calling up the recruiting office for it. I'm currently doing A-Levels, my main goal is to become a pilot but failing that I want to look at other options in the RAF because I love aircraft and want a job to do with them.

My question is, what is the job title of the people who are flying in the helicopters on the missions they go on and on the gun if it's equipped? And the job title of the navigators in the helicopters, or does the pilot do all of this?

lj101

27th May 2013, 05:47

SLJ

To try and prevent you being mauled by some posters - we don't train new navigators anymore so that path will not be an option. This branch may be of interest as below.

Weapon Systems Operator - Aircrew jobs - RAF Careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/weaponssystemoperator.cfm)

The only time I flew in the Lynx in Iraq as you describe, the lads with the machine guns out of the door were British Army. I'm pretty sure crewmen/women in the RAF have done similar but I've never seen it so don't write with knowledge.

Go and have a chat at the RAF careers office closest to you for the most up to date information. Good luck.

27th May 2013, 07:25

The RAF's helicopter crewmen, who are WSOs, as the link above describes, are all trained to man the guns fitted in a hostile environment. However, that is just a small part of their job as they load the aircraft, assist in the navigation, etc.

The RAF's green helicopters used to have navigators, and there are still one or two flying, but it's not a career route open any more, not least that we stopped all navigator (Weapon System Officer) training about 3 years ago.

Thomas coupling

27th May 2013, 08:48

Sljmaster

Your best bet is is to go to your nearest careers office and ask to speak to someone about it. Failing that do you you know someone who is in the RAF who can chat to you over a coffee?

If you only want search engine clues try:
Loadmaster / loady.
Winchman / winch operator.
helicopter crewman.
radar operator.

There are navigators on jets in the RAF and helicopters in the Royal Navy, but not in the RAF helicopter world anymore.

Lima Juliet

27th May 2013, 09:08

Just to be fully pedantic on MG's post and so you don't get it wrong at interview:

Weapon System Officer = WSO (pronounced 'Wizzo')

Weapon System Operator = WSOp (pronounced 'Wizzop')

WSO are commissioned officers and WSOps are non-commissioned officers (NCO).

Finally, I noted that there were some University Air Sqn types that are WSO who are holding with me this summer. So the stream may opening in very limited numbers. There are 'core' programs still in service that need WSOs:

RIVET JOINT
Sentry AEW Mk1
Tornado GR4 (although OSD is likely sometime soon after JSF ISD in 2018/19)

Plus some Urgent Operational Requirements (UORs) that are looking at going into 'core':

REAPER (to become Project SCAVANGER)
SHADOW
and possibly Sentinel RMk1 which is due to finish at the end of Op HERRICK.

So there will be either commissioning of WSOps or new WSOs to train. I hear that the Observer Course at RNAS Culdrose is being looked at for these small numbers.

LJ

sljmaster

27th May 2013, 09:47

Thanks for the replies, unfortunately I don't know anyone in the RAF in my area but I've been in army cadets for 4 years so I guess that's better than nothing. I have previously looked at the WSOp route but I was unsure on exactly what this is, from the description it's obvious you load cargo etc on to aircraft but do you then go with it to unload the cargo on the other end or stay at the base, because it's listed under aircrew which would suggest you're 'in the air' and you get flying pay.

Melchett01

27th May 2013, 10:21

sljmaster,

If you want to do nothing more than hang out of the side of a helicopter on the end of door gun, then you probably need to look at joining the AAC in the ranks. Once you have done your basic training and have a tour under your belt, you can apply to be a Crewman / Door Gunner. But you may only do that for a tour or 2 tops, it isn't a full career stream.

If you want to do more than that, then as has already been you need to look at Weapons Systems Operator in the RAF, but in doing so, being prepared that you could end up working on the Air Transport or ISTAR fleets as much as the Rotary fleet. It all depends what we need at the time and where your aptitude lies.

4Greens

27th May 2013, 19:12

More interesting to join the Royal Navy.

27th May 2013, 19:17

Can you join the RN directly as a crewman? I didn't think you could, but it wouldn't be the first time that I was wrong.

(Those who know me, yes it does happen occasionally, but very rarely!!)

TheWizard

27th May 2013, 19:57

Simple answer, no.

thing

27th May 2013, 20:01

Sentinel RMk1 which is due to finish at the end of Op HERRICK.

Maybe not.

"Running in"

27th May 2013, 21:07

RN started recruiting direct entry crewmen earlier this year. Still in the early stages but looking to start new entries at Raleigh in 2014.

Tommmo

4th Jun 2013, 17:10

It might interest anyone watching this thread to know that RAF Pilot recruitment opened up this afternoon. I don't know how long for or how many applicants they will be accepting, but it's worth a look.

Wander00

4th Jun 2013, 18:51

Usually someone from OAC comes on the thread and tells us - but is there anyone in OASC these days (I did my selection at Hornchurch)

Pontius Navigator

4th Jun 2013, 19:45

Wander, indeed, so did I.

Yes, there are still people at OASC as recruiting has never stopped. I would even imagine that the staff have not been cut back as their job is to winnow the best of the wheat. Low recruitment targets translate to higher bars and not fewer applicants. Only aircrew have been subject to a closed door, for the rest, if a door is closed they could often be sent to a different branch.

Wander00

4th Jun 2013, 19:59

Aah, that's good then. feel really sorry for those that cannot get in. Mind you , difficult in all fields. Youngest has his last Uni exam on Thursday and then is let loose - mind you a slightly specialised field of materials and computer aided design. Good luck to all those finishing uni and job hunting

carfraec

25th Aug 2013, 13:30

Hi there,

I'm yet another person that wants to join RN/RAF as a pilot once I finish uni in 2 years. However from reading on thestudentroom forums, they are saying that pilots will be 100% from UAS. I'm currently in the TA and enjoying it and am loath to leave. How much does UAS advantage an application these days?

Regards,

Melchett01

26th Aug 2013, 11:37

I'm long out of the UAS system these days, and as I understand it, UASs are now more about general leadership and officer skills with some flying rather than the pure flying of 20 years ago when I joined. So in respect of having a bag of hours to your name before you join, probably not so much.

But in terms of demonstrating commitment and a burning desire to join the RAF, if your university has a UAS affiliated to it, and if I were doing your interview, I'd want to know why you had to be prised out of the OTC if you really were that keen on all things flying and RAF.

Edited to add - it doesn't have to be a major problem, you just need to be creative in your thinking and come up with a way of selling it to the interview boards.

airborne_artist

30th Aug 2013, 11:47

Are you in the TA or the OTC?

If you are in the TA and doing challenging stuff then I'd stay. There are plenty of ways to sell it to OASC. Don't believe all you read on Student Room anyway. They genuinely don't know.

There's lots of other ways of getting in the air that don't involve UAS anyway. Gliding is one of them. Uni/general gliding club would be one. Make sure your CV is peppered with leadership experience in clubs/societies, and with experience of working alongside/leading others from all walks of life. Do some true volunteering.

The RN will be far less fussed about UAS anyway :E

muppetofthenorth

30th Aug 2013, 16:49

Don't believe all you read on Student Room anyway. They genuinely don't know.

Wouldn't go that far. There are a good few serving/ex-serving types including an ex-UAS QFI, serving FJ and ME types along with a couple of blunties...

As with any place with people pertaining to be in the know; some do, some don't. On the whole, however, the advice over there is pretty good.

I will say, though, that the bit the guy was referring to, the "all pilots will be from the UAS" hasn't been said at all, by anyone. Think there's more than a few wires crossed there. He might be referring to the fact that recently all the people entering the system have been bursars, but now the stream is open to everyone again.

carfraec

1st Sep 2013, 21:22

Thanks very much for the replies everyone.

Artist, I am in the process of transferring out of the OTC having done my first year back to TA (perhaps it should now be Army Reserve), the course I'm hoping to get on is rather challenging but its something I've wanted to do for some time.

Yes I gathered the student room can be rather hit and miss, though the "100% UAS aircrew" comment did alarm me - hopefully its baseless. I just didn't want to burn any military flying bridges whereby someone with UAS experience would get selected over someone without it, this seems a bit daft given there are plenty of uni's not covered by UAS.

Thanks again.

sljmaster

2nd Sep 2013, 21:00

Hey, aspiring pilot too, I recently went to RAF Shrewsburry and spoke to some pilots for a couple of hours, everyone gets an interview and the same tests, you just need to be in the top 0.5% and sell yourself well in the interviews and have great leadership skills which can be developed in UAS.

Melchett01

2nd Sep 2013, 21:38

I recently went to RAF Shrewsburry and spoke to some pilots for a couple of hours, everyone gets an interview and the same tests, you just need to be in the top 0.5% and sell yourself well in the interviews

I assume you mean RAF Shawbury? As well as the above advice, not shooting yourself in the foot is also strongly advised.

If you do, no harm in back tracking and asking "did I just say RAF Shrewsburry? I mean Shawbury". If you have a human being for an interviewer (usually you do) they'll probably chuckle and put it down to interview nerves but equally should give you a bit of credit for having the confidence to own up to a mistake.

Airborne Aircrew

2nd Sep 2013, 22:26

If you do, no harm in back tracking and asking "did I just say RAF Shrewsburry? I mean Shawbury". If you have a human being for an interviewer (usually you do) they'll probably chuckle and put it down to interview nerves but equally should give you a bit of credit for having the confidence to own up to a mistake.

Of course, if you do this in a written communication where you have the ability to read what you have just written before you inflict it upon your audience that chances that your verbal communication is much better is small...

TomJoad

5th Sep 2013, 23:02

Of course, if you do this in a written communication where you have the ability to read what you have just written before you inflict it upon your audience that chances that your verbal communication is much better is small...

Second that, it's is really important to proof read what you have written; you do not want to embarrass yourself.:ok: Good luck bye the way.

Toadstool

5th Sep 2013, 23:42

The touchés keep coming. I second that, good luck to anyone considering a career in the RAF, especially Aircrew. It is still great.

Pontius Navigator

6th Sep 2013, 07:04

Or may be he heard someone say RAF Strawberry and thought they meant . . .

Jono94

7th Sep 2013, 17:57

Good evening everybody.

New to PPRuNe, I apologise in advance for asking a question which is probably answered. Under the new selection process for all RAF trades which require aptitude testing, I have been given my date for my first visit to Cranwell to take my FAT's- I would be most appreciative of any advice from anybody who has been before, particularly anyone who has been recently.

I understand that the aptitude tests are designed to test a candidates innate abilities- you can't really practice for them. However like many others I've seen online, I know you can revise the mathematic sections. Now, from an email I received from OASC, I understand there are two key tests which focus heavily on maths- a Numerical reasoning test (which appears to be multiple choice) and the Airborne Numerical Test. I am more concerned about the latter due to the fact that the calculations have to be made in your head, with no pen or paper in limited time (to simulate a cockpit environment). Can anybody tell me anything about the types of question in this element of the test I.e level of difficulty?

I reckon it's this part of the test which will trip me up. I wonder if anyone knows how much these sections affect the overall score?

Thank you kindly in advance!

Jonathan

airborne_artist

8th Sep 2013, 11:55

The airborne numerical test will be along the lines of:

How long will it take to fly 42nm at a speed of 360kts.

360kts is 6nm a minute, so it will take 7 minutes.

Look for the simple way of doing the calcs, which will always be there once you look.

msaaim89

5th Nov 2013, 22:53

Could anyone experienced in the RAF inform me on how long it takes to complete specialist training as an aircraft mechanic.

Thanks in advance.

lj101

6th Nov 2013, 17:56

The info you need is here;

Aircraft Technician (Mechanical) - Engineering and technical careers - RAF Careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/airtechmechanical.cfm)

Recruit training
Your career will start with a 10 week Basic Recruit Training Course (BRTC) at RAF Halton in Buckinghamshire. The course is designed to help you adjust to a military environment. As well as fitness and military training, you’ll also learn about the RAF lifestyle.

Specialist training

The next step is a specialist training course at DCAE Cosford, near Wolverhampton, which lasts about five months. This course is designed to give you a basic understanding of your role, which includes aircraft handling and safety procedures. You’ll complete this course as an Aircraft Maintenance Mechanic (AMM) and then get your first posting, where you’ll remain for about two years to gain the necessary experience needed for the technician training course. You will also be enrolled on an Intermediate Apprenticeship during which you may achieve an NVQ Level 2, Technical Certificate Level 2 and functional skills level 2.

Capt.YARKHAN

10th Nov 2013, 02:29

Can you apply to the RAF if you are a Canadian citizen?

lj101

10th Nov 2013, 05:57

Capt Y

Nationality and residency - RAF Careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/canijoin/nationalityandresidency.cfm)

Criteria as above within the link.

Avtur

2nd Dec 2013, 17:59

I used to fly with a very fine Canadian pilot in the RAF.

The Old Fat One

3rd Jan 2014, 08:04

off thread...

Wander/PN Flicking thru and noticed your comments re Hornchurch. Fascinating...I grew up there. All my mates got a day off school once, because they found an old German bomb on the airfield. When did OASC switch to Biggin Hill (where they ****ed big time and let me in :\)

Pontius Navigator

3rd Jan 2014, 08:31

When did OASC switch to Biggin Hill (where they ****ed big time and let me in :\)

A couple of years after 1961 IIRC.

I remember one very street wise young man, cockney, had a wonderfully impressive obscene phrase he used all the time. Impressive to a 17 year old school boy from the sticks that is.

I had had a rail warrant issued. Broke the journey in London and bought a paid of chukka boots for about 30/- at Gamages. Eventually they wore out about 8 years later.

Arrived Saturday night and was persuaded by one of the 'smarter' ones to go to church on Sunday and be 'seen'. Of course we went to the town church and not the station church.

The first two days were aptitude and medical before catching the train to Sleaford. Of the street wise one I never saw him again.

Mind you, with over 100 aircrew candidates per month in to training it would have been easy to miss even someone on the course either side. Once commissioned some 80 per month would disappear to pilot training, some would get chopped, some would be retreaded as navs and some would die.

The navs likewise would be chopped or rarely retreaded to ground branch. They tended to die with some of the pilots that had got through previously. The loss rates were pretty high.

Wander00

3rd Jan 2014, 09:23

I did Hornchurch selection then to Deadloss House at the Towers for scholarship selection in 1959 or early 1960, so I am with PN - I think about 1962 to BH

Wiki says 1958 but I would have thought it was later than that

Pontius Navigator

3rd Jan 2014, 13:39

Wander, it depends on how you search Wiki. Best gen is it moved from Hornchurch in Jul 1962 when the station closed. It was the Aircrew Selection Centre for 10 years. When it moved it became the Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre that we know today.

I don't know where Technical, Supply, or miscellaneous branch officers went for selection.

MikeGaisfordCarter

7th Jan 2014, 22:13

Hi Guys
I'm 18 years old and in my last year of college studying Uniformed Public Services BTEC Level 3 Extended Diploma. Have correct GCSE's for Pilot entry in any organisation.

The time has come to make some big decisions and I need your help...

My aspiration has always been to join the British Armed Forces as a Pilot, I really don't care what I fly within these, just as long as I'm flying!

I'm currently on the waiting list for Pilot Entry into the RAF, have registered with the Royal Navy with an interest in becoming an Officer Pilot and have started looking at the Army Air Corps as a possibility.

With all of the above in mind, I am 190 cm tall, so I guess my first question is... Am I too tall to be a Fast Jet Pilot???

Secondly, upon application to all three of the forces, can you give your predicted grades or must they be achieved???

Finally, does anybody know if their are any resources that are readily available to practice aptitude test questions etc???

Please Help!!!

Thank You!

MAD Boom

8th Jan 2014, 19:24

Mike

Your height will not be the only factor for FJ selection; your buttock-knee length and functional reach of your arms play an important part to name just two. That said, I know some pretty tall FJ guys out there.

Where some (myself included) would praise your desire to fly as your number one priority, there are others who will question your loyalty to the RAF if you have logged interests with the FAA and AAC.

Also, there is the age-old 'officer first, pilot second' view which you will have to answer to. Not sure the statement 'I don't care what I fly just as long as I'm flying' will get you far in this competitive age.

Whether you agree or disagree with what I've said, you would be wise to consider your answers to these before sitting an AFCO interview.

That said, I wish you luck in your pursuit to commit aviation!

Pontius Navigator

8th Jan 2014, 20:57

Don't worry about multiple applications. Daughter was 'virtually' ordered to apply to RN by a VSO. At the same time she applied to the RAF.

She was accepted by the RN into the warfare branch just before her OASC. Gave her a boost as she already had an acceptance in her pocket. It just made the RAF keener to sign her up.

airborne_artist

10th Jan 2014, 08:28

6' 2.5" in old money is not too tall unless you are very oddly proportioned.

Parallel applications to all three Services are not frowned upon, but bear in mind that the Army does things differently. You'll need to pass out in the top 30% of RMAS to get an AAC slot.

The rest is down to preparation. Good luck.

Eul0gy

15th Jan 2014, 19:27

Does anyone know what the current gen is with the WSOP recruitment and also what they do on the voyager?

camelspyyder

19th Jan 2014, 16:57

Have you asked at a recruiting office?

Try calling RAF Cranwell and asking for "NCA Liaison Team".

They can answer both questions.

Eul0gy

19th Jan 2014, 21:49

Cheers for the info camelspyyder,

ive not had a chance to speak to a careers office as I am currently on a course and didn't know if careers office or local commissioning club would be correct route. I didn't realise that the NCA liaison team is still going, ill dig out the details from the cranwell page when I can get on a DII machine.

DaveB36

16th Feb 2014, 21:13

Hi there guys,

another hopeful pilot candidate here. New to the forum, and after reading through the thread was wanting to ask a couple questions.

I have my P2 presentation in a couple of weeks and my interview the following week, i was just wondering if there were any hints or tips you guys knew of for the interview process other than the usual, keep up with current affairs and learn as much as possible about the RAF's current roles. I started trying to teach myself as much about avionics as possible too and just wondered if you guys - that actually know how it works - think that'll be of any assistance?

Sorry for the essay and cheers in advance,
Dave

NDW

17th Mar 2014, 13:34

Haven't posted here on a while;

But, for all those interested - Weapon Systems Operator role is now open for applications.

Best of luck to all.

Melchett01

19th Mar 2014, 00:46

i was just wondering if there were any hints or tips you guys knew of for the interview process other than the usual, keep up with current affairs and learn as much as possible about the RAF's current roles

You've pretty much nailed it, along with being able to explain why you stand out above other prospective candidates.

I started trying to teach myself as much about avionics as possible too and just wondered if you guys - that actually know how it works - think that'll be of any assistance?

No and maybe yes. Assuming you pass the aptitude tests and medical, neither of which relies on your ability to understand the workings of a multifunction radar or a datalink, the crux of OASC is all about demonstrating leadership potential not technical ability. As with the commissioning boards at all 3 services, you can be a genius, but if you lack that certain something, you won't get in.

Unless you have a burning desire to understand everything there is to know about radars, I wouldn't go much beyond knowing the big picture stuff i.e. what sort of radars you might get on a particular aircraft type and what they do - air-air, air-ground, synthetic aperture radar etc.

Where that sort of knowledge will be handy is at interview as it's one of the ways in which you demonstrate your knowledge of the RAF and hence your enthusiasm for joining, and it might just be the crucial extra tick in the box to get you over the line if needed. But that will only be one small part of the interview, don't focus on it. Spend your time gathering your thoughts and putting your evidence together as to why you should get the job and then let the RAF pay you to learn about avionics down the line.

Flyboat North

19th Mar 2014, 07:59

I know a few Brits who are currently in Oz who are keen.

Is pilot recruitment for all three services back to full steam ? In terms of prior to cutbacks ?

If so how many approximately would commence every year ?

Apologies if this info is posted elsewhere - 100 pages or so just a fair bit to read there.

Know the RAF was fairly brutal with cutting pilot trainees, on the upside though a lot of these were given a start by Cathay

POSW#1

19th Mar 2014, 19:50

Does anyone know when the age limit for serving NCA to apply for pilot changed to be the exact same as DE? As I understand the DE limit was always 26.5, but serving aircrew had up until 35? It's a step in the wrong direction IMO. There are a lot of switched on NCA who already have a high level of airmanship with a lot more to offer. The Army, however, will recruit pilots up to 30, who could potentially end up captaining an Apache, which I'm sure at very least would take as much training as an AT, SH or FJ mate. Is there a logic behind the RAF's decision? Thoughts?

thing

20th Mar 2014, 01:34

Is there a logic behind the RAF's decision?

Er, logic and RAF decision. Look up oxymoron in your Collin's dictionary.

MAD Boom

31st Mar 2014, 12:55

Does anyone know when the age limit for serving NCA to apply for pilot changed to be the exact same as DE? As I understand the DE limit was always 26.5, but serving aircrew had up until 35?

I believe that there is no difference between Serving Airman or DE in terms of age limits at present. In training by age 26 if I'm not mistaken.

It's a step in the wrong direction IMO. There are a lot of switched on NCA who already have a high level of airmanship with a lot more to offer.

Completely agree. Just happened to a guy on our Sqn. Missed the age limit by a matter of months, no exceptions made. He's now PVR'd which is a total waste of talent in my opinion. I was rather lucky and made the jump from NCA at age 30 before the ridiculous rules were changed.

I almost jumped to the AAC some time back until it was pointed out that should I fail flying training, I would now be a SNCO in the army. I promptly thanked them for their time and replaced the receiver........

ALM In Waiting

7th May 2014, 05:48

I was under the impression it was 32 years old for serving NCA and had been for a while. I guess admin, OASC or your local careers office would have up to date gen.

muppetofthenorth

7th May 2014, 11:12

Is there a logic behind the RAF's decision?

Avoiding lawsuits?

Someone aged 27 could have demonstrably better aptitude test results than an NCA bod aged 31, but the 27 yr old would be turned down on the spot for no reason other than he's late to the party.

Appreciate the Armed Forces don't work to the same employment laws as other sectors of work, but that won't last forever. They're just covering their own backs.

exmm

2nd Jul 2014, 14:54

Hey guys,

I've lurked for ages and read this entire thread (amongs others) but thought it was about time I actually signed up and posted.

I'm applying for the RAF and have my OASC date confirmed mid-August. Currently have some minor issues with medical records, which will hopefully be sorted ASAP. Long story short, previous hayfever diagnosis (>>4 years ago).

Just wanted to say everyone on this thread has been hugely helpful - so much information is here and you are all doing a brilliant job.

RRAAMJET

17th Aug 2014, 03:14

Exmm...best of luck

I was you 30+ years ago, never thought I stood a chance.
Ended up USAF Exchange tour etc, had a blast.

Be a leader, but be humble, and you'll surprise yourself, and the Board.
Without a doubt, the GD(P) wings course that all others in the world aspire to.

exmm

3rd Sep 2014, 10:26

Thanks for the words of encouragement :)

I've been accepted onto the October IOT into Aircrew, which is brilliant news - if not a bit rapid!

I'll be happy to help anyone who is coming up to OASC in the next few weeks, but really there is nothing I can say that hasn't been covered in this thread already.

Pontius Navigator

3rd Sep 2014, 16:22

Well done, good to know you got your medical records sorted.

Typhoon93

3rd Sep 2014, 19:28

Congratulations!!!

bradyx10

24th Sep 2014, 17:02

Evening all!

I'm on my way to OASC Part 2 on the 9th November. Keeping the positive thoughts flowing :)

If asked in the interview what the role and vision is of the Royal Air Force, it's not going to look great if I quote what's on their website! So is it just a case of breaking it down into my own words? Put a personal spin on it even!

Thanks in advance.

MAD Boom

27th Sep 2014, 17:15

Brady

A bit of both really. I would quote exactly what is on the website; it shows you're using suitable sources in your research. You will, however, be expected to voice an opinion on what you have read.

Best of luck!

Liveforthesky

7th Oct 2014, 20:44

Evening all,

It has been mentioned that you have to get into the top 0.5 percentile, in the aptitude tests, to become a pilot. Does anyone know the percentile for WSOP?

Regards,
Ste.

camelspyyder

8th Oct 2014, 20:15

It's impossible to quantify in that way for WSOp or Pilot. Is that 0.5% of applicants? of those tested? I would say that in reality less than 1 in 200 of those who want to be a pilot can do it. It's also quite negative for an applicant to worry "am I in the top 0.5%". Just do your best. You either have sufficient aptitude or you don't.

Pontius Navigator

8th Oct 2014, 21:06

Speaking of Navs, and I am talking of those that already jumped the AFCO, OASC, and IOT hurdles, 30% or more still wash out.

Many who washed out we're chopped pilots but that was when pilot intakes were much higher. Now I would expect competition would be stiffer so standards higher.

However there is one interesting change. This thread on Pprune used to be very active with potential applicants; now interest is close to nil.

Party Animal

9th Oct 2014, 08:30

PN - For the benefit of youths reading this thread, we stopped recruiting Navs over 10 years ago! Non pilot aircrew were then accepted as either Weapon System Officers (WSO) or Weapon System Operators (WSOp). As a follow on from SDSR 10, WSO training has ceased to exist and WSOp training, after a long period of being relatively quiet is about to ramp up again. Albeit, with nothing like the intake once seen during the days of having an MPA Force.

Melchett01

9th Oct 2014, 10:13

However there is one interesting change. This thread on Pprune used to be very active with potential applicants; now interest is close to nil.

I bet if there was a thread dealing with PVRs, redundancy and pensions it would be far busier than this one is now. What would you call it though? 'How green is your grass?' Or maybe 'Come on in, the water's lovely' ;)

Pontius Navigator

9th Oct 2014, 13:58

PA, thank you for the amplification, my point though was that there are a lot of hurdles with wings following training, OCU, Sqn check and acceptance up to 6 months after OCU.

Typhoon93

21st Oct 2014, 15:36

Hi all, I am after a bit of advice from anybody who has direct experience with OASC.

I got in contact with RAF Recruiting about eyesight requirements for Aircrew and the possibility of laser corrective surgery. I got back this:

"Any candidates having l@ser eye surgery must wait at least 12 months before applying,
you must be at least 22 years of age at your application,
the total pre operative refractive error was not outside the limits for selection i.e. +6 or -6 dioptre in either eye and the best spectacle corrected visual acuity was within selection standards.
Further specialist assessment will also be required following the pre employment medical assessment to confirm ophthalmic fitness for recruit entry."

They didn't answer my question as to whether I would be allowed in to the Service BEFORE having laser corrective surgery. I was told by one of the FJ pilots that laser surgery BEFORE applying may stop me getting in.

What are my options?

Pontius Navigator

21st Oct 2014, 15:48

Do you really need to have the options spelt out?

I think you set them out quite well. Just consider your value to the RAF. Right now it is near to zero. As you jump through each hoop your value increases. You should be able to see where that leads.

Typhoon93

21st Oct 2014, 20:18

So the reality is then that the only chance I'd have of even getting past OASC is to have surgery.

Thanks PN.

Pontius Navigator

21st Oct 2014, 20:48

That was not a conclusion o would draw from what you wrote.

otal pre operative refractive error was not outside the limits for selection i.e. +6 or -6 dioptre in either eye and the best spectacle corrected visual acuity was within selection standards

Typhoon93

21st Oct 2014, 21:05

Pontius Navigator

22nd Oct 2014, 06:32

Unfortunately I have astigmatism, which requires me to have glasses. I highly doubt I will pass a Service/pilot eye test prior to basic flying training (if it works like that?) without corrective surgery. Even for simple tasks like reading a letter, or even reading PPRuNe, I struggle without glasses. My aided vision is pretty good I think, but then I've had nothing to compare it to.

I was just wondering if the RAF will allow me to have the surgery after Selection. I'd be willing to have it, and at my own expense.

Ah, you never said that in the first place. To answer the final question, almost certainly not. Imagine a box of 24 Apples, all the same price but the biggest, shiniest one has a worm hole. It'll probably be ok if you cut it out. . .

Your best bet is to apply and let the medics assess you and tell you what you really need to know.

Geff89

1st Nov 2014, 00:24

Hey Typhoon,

My History:

Gap Year program in 2010---I had PRK in 2011.

I have just recently been accepted to flight screening.

My Tips: they only accept PRK surgery at the moment... if you have lasik your out. I believe you need to have the surgery before being accepted...I had the same thought as you but was told no. (it was the best money I spent anyway regardless). The rules keep changing so yeh..its a long process...

Goodluck

MaxAnderson

9th Nov 2014, 21:51

Just to clear things up:

Whats this 0.5% figure for pilot applicants? Meaning that (less than) 1 in 200 applicants are selected?

Not to sound like a complete plonker but I am not terribly confident that this is particularly accurate, based on all previous information that I've heard. I'm basing this all on info that I've got from the Royal Navy - not the RAF so I can't comment on those guys.

Upon meeting individuals successful at FATs, I've been informed by multiple people that flying aptitude is a score out of 180, where 112 is a pass for pilot. However, I met a chap who got 140 and that was considered a very competitive score.

I have also heard that candidates that scraped the 112 mark got into BRNC as potential aircrew (granted that this is based on AIB score) but have an equal chance to get flying.

I have also heard that if you fail for pilot (or any aircrew role that you were applying for) you can write to the AIB and ask to re-take the FATs at least once more.

All of this stuff is from some RN Personnel, a couple of ACLOs and candidates from around the country. Can anyone tell me if it is valid?

I'll be fair, the 0.5% figure sounds plausible because of the demand for quality over quantity, and I have met a vast number of plonker candidates (I for which may be one, but I can only hope that I'm not).

Just thought I'd share my side of the story, I figured I might learn something.

Liveforthesky

9th Nov 2014, 22:09

Hi again everyone,

As an ex army reserve engineer, I am waiting for my discharge QR code to be transferred from the Army to the RAF so that they have an understanding of how I was discharged. (Which was voluntary discharge). I have been waiting for over a month and have chased up my my recruitment office, they haven't given me much information, and simply suggest that it is being processed up in Scotland. Has anyone else had this issue? Would anyone else be able to shed light on how long it could take? :ugh:

Thanks,
Ste.

Typhoon93

10th Nov 2014, 02:17

Geff, only just seen this.

Thank you so much. PRK would be the option I'd go for regardless since it is the most practised, and subsequently there is a lot more experience. I am not saying LASIK is bad, or those who perform it are bad, it's just that I am more comfortable that way.

My biggest hurdle at present is asthma. I understand the risks with asthma and flying, however those risks only apply to those who currently suffer with asthma (the unpredictable asthma attacks). I haven't been prescribed medication for a long time, and I hardly used the medication when I had it as I didn't need it. Unless the RAF suddenly changes its policies on childhood asthma or it gets wiped from my medical records as a mistake (in which case I wouldn't volunteer the information to OASC!), then the only way I will ever get near a fast jet is by going to a museum.

Another question for PN: Why is childhood asthma (however the asthma symptoms are no longer present and have not been for some time, if at all) so frowned upon for Aircrew duties?

Mil-26Man

10th Nov 2014, 15:47

Asthma and short-sightedness? I wish you well Typhoon, but I'd suggest you have a back-up plan in case RAF aircrew doesn't work out for you.

Don't mean to put a downer on your ambitions, but at 21 you're old enough not to have it sugar coated. The harsh fact is that either of those conditions on their own will likely preclude you from fast jet aircrew (and by extension, any other from of RAF/RN/AAC aircrew), and both together..., well.

I know this from experience.

gr4techie

10th Nov 2014, 17:47

PRK would be the option I'd go for regardless since it is the most practised, and subsequently there is a lot more experience. I am not saying LASIK is bad, or those who perform it are bad, it's just that I am more comfortable that way.

When I had my eyes done, Lasik with wavefront was the best treatment available. The qualified Doctor who did my eyes has been doing laser eye surgery since 1991 and has done 13,000 patients.

Maybe PRK has been done more if it is an older technology and cheaper. It doesn't mean it is better.

But don't take my word for it, you really should speak to the qualified experts who are in the know.

Why is childhood asthma (however the asthma symptoms are no longer present and have not been for some time, if at all) so frowned upon for Aircrew duties?

Because OASC can pick and choose who they want. If they always have more applicants than vacancies they can afford to turn down anyone. If they have 2 candidates for 1 position, one has asthma and the other doesn't, they will take the less risk candidate.

Typhoon93

11th Nov 2014, 13:38

GR4Techie,

Being picky and discriminating against a former condition that is of no problem (if it even existed in the first place) any more are quite different.

If a person fails the flying aptitude tests, or they have a very serious, current medical problem, then I understand. However it is possible to "grow out" of asthma, where the symptoms are no longer present.

I am willing to bet that nobody has ever had the balls to officially challenge the Services on their policy regarding 'childhood asthma'. I have read on here, that apparently Forces medics, and other personnel from not only the UK, but the world over can't understand it either. But those higher up the Chain of Command won't budge....

Mil-26Man

11th Nov 2014, 15:05

You don't have to understand why the RAF won't accept asthma in its aircrew candidates, you just have to accept it and find something else to do with your life.

I am willing to bet that nobody has ever had the balls to officially challenge the Services on their policy regarding 'childhood asthma'.

It's not a question of 'balls' Typhoon, it's having the sense to realise the inevitable and to move on with your life.

But those higher up the Chain of Command won't budge....

You said it, so accept it and move on with your life.

Pontius Navigator

11th Nov 2014, 15:22

It has been said many times, the requirement for aircrew is low, dozens instead of the hundreds of Hester year. The numbers applying May be lower too but the majority will be fully fit with no medical history.

A candidate with any medical history, resolved or not, is an unnecessary risk when compared with others. Frustrating maybe but that is life.h

Typhoon93

11th Nov 2014, 16:35

True, PN.... and it won't stop me from trying to get it taken off my records.

I didn't have bloody asthma, I barely took my inhalers. The GP's were wrong IMHO. Although I'm a 90's child..... anybody with the sniffles in Spring time had Asthma back then.

Levelling_the_Land

11th Nov 2014, 23:39

Typhoon93,

it's at this point that I'll post my first extended post to this forum, and quote possibly my last, as this is the only real contribution I can make.

If you have had asthma, you won't be accepted as aircrew.

Back in 1988, before the internet let you find these things out quickly and clearly, a younger me had been dreaming of joining the RAF as aircrew since he was 7 or 8. Joined the ATC at 13. Was obsessed with aircraft and back then knew that the Tornado GR1 and F2 had different models of RB199 and could tell you the difference. During my initial interview at the careers office I identified a JP233 on the Tornado model in the office and explained what it was used for. I really enjoyed OASC at Biggin Hill for a 6th Form Scholarship and having done well enough in all the tests on the 2 days,
including the spirometry, one of the happiest moments of my life was to come home one day after school to find a letter saying "You have been offered a 6th Form Scholarship as General Duties Navigator......Asthma.....Please go to CME on date such and such to have this checked out". (This isn't the exact wording, but is the general gist.)

Gulp. Still, can't be a problem, can it?

I still remember the sign behind the Doctor's desk saying "Don't tell me you have a cold, I'll decide that". I was suffering from a stinking cold and the doctor wasn't best pleased when I pointed it out. I was asked some questions about my medical history, which added up to "I did have asthma". And that was the end of that. A horrible train journey back "Oop North" contemplating the end of my dreams.

Still one of the worst days of my life.

Which in many ways shows both that I've since had a full and enjoyable life. At the time, it felt like the end of the world. It wasn't. I've got a good job in an interesting industry which pays me quite well. A good family and my health.

Asthma? Haven't had an attack since I was about 12. I wasn't a sickly, weedy asthmatic, I swam just below county standard, played 1st 15 rugby at school, captained my University team, played National League Waterpolo. Had very good eyesight. I'm now over 40.

Good Luck getting your record changed. But you have to be honest with yourself. Did you really have it? In some ways the diagnostic criteria are simple. If your peak flow improves by more than 12% after a bronchodilator then you're probably asthmatic. It can be more complex, but that's a good starter. How do I know this? My wife's a GP, and number 1 son is asthmatic. A GP won't change your record just because you want them to. If you die of an attack, or it comes back, their arse is on the line in that case. Medico-legally, it's just not going to happen. You will need a 2nd opinion, and I think 1 or 2 people who've been on this thread have had some success. But your GP won't do it. My wife's been asked and she said "no". Bear in mind, while you think it's the end of the world, earlier in the year she's probably had to tell someone it really is the end of their world, as they're going to die of something. Possibly a mum with 2 young kids. Telling you "no" will be on the easier end of the spectrum of their job. Particularly if you really did have asthma.

As for why a past history matters? Most things in large organisations in life are about risk management/maximising probabilities. A past history of asthma puts you at greater risk of it happening again, particularly in difficult physical situations. What happens to you, or those around you if this happens when your life or someone else's it at risk? Try looking at this
thread http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/550889-gw1-tornado-raid-transcript.html and the link in the post from "cows getting bigger". Think how hard that guy's working just to stay alive. Imagine what would have happened if your asthma reappeared then. It's not a game. Why should the RAF take the greater risk with you?

So, why this extended post?

I've seen the blunt, direct replies from those who haven't "fallen at the first" (or should that be "didn't make it out of the starting gate" :-)) and as correct as they are, they're from those who have succeeded in their dream. I have a lot of sympathy for your reaction. I know how it feels, and it feels ****. But it isn't the end of the world, in fact it's a big
old world with more variety than you can possibly sample in one lifetime. So if you really did have asthma, go and sample something else, it might not be what you originally wanted to do, I know I'd still prefer to have had my first choice career! But if you choose wisely, remain flexible and graft hard, there's some pretty good second choices out there.

LTL.

melmothtw

12th Nov 2014, 12:43

I appear to have had a mirror experience to you LTL, even down to the approximate dates.

Like you, becoming a fast jet pilot in the RAF was the be-all-and-end-all for me growing up, and like yourself there was nothing about military aviation of the late 1980s that I didn't know.

I went down to Biggin Hill for the OASC (in 1990 I think), and passed through all of the processes right up until the medical. 'Childhood asthma' and dodgy eyes did for me (like yourself, I've not had anything resembling an asthma attack in over 30 years).

It was pretty devastating for me to told this as a 16-year-old, but I just had to suck it up and get on with my life.

In the intervening years (I'm now north of 40) I have actually managed to make a living out of military aviation (more through luck rather than judgement), but as a writer rather than a pilot.

T93, as LTL says there comes a point where you just have to accept the facts and find some other path. You won't be the first person to have their hopes and dreams dashed and you won't be the last, but there are other aviation-related options out there beyond the military that you could pursue.

Good luck.

Typhoon93

12th Nov 2014, 15:03

I genuinely don't believe I actually had asthma. I have only had one instance where I have had to be nebulised, and that felt more like a nasty chest infection than an asthma attack. I have seen a person have an asthma attack, and it was nothing like anything I had seen or experienced before.

I will seek a second opinion, however I am also prepared to accept that if it doesn't go my way, then a career as a front line pilot is a non-starter, however crap it may be.

Alister101

12th Nov 2014, 23:00

T93,

Go speak to your GP, it might not be highlighted in your Medical History page - Just down on your notes page. Misdiagnoses are hard to get, as I think it needs to be the original Doc that did it, not too sure.

However, I guess Asthma is quite easy to spot, and as I take it you never went back to claim the medication didn't work, this confirms the diagnosis.

But I'm no Dr.

Good luck.

Alex Bugle

13th Nov 2014, 16:22

Hello all,
I am in the early stages of my application (I have my AFCO P2 presentation next week) to join the RAF as a pilot. Whilst the information on the RAF website and posts on this forum have been very clear about the various stages of the application process I have yet to find a post which dealt with expected mathematical abilities. Although I do have a maths GCSE, it has been been a while since I tackled an equation (numerical or algebraic). Could anyone give me any advice on what will be expected of me/what I should practice.
Cheers

Alister101

13th Nov 2014, 22:53

The maths in the RT test mimics the maths you've done at school. Long multiplication/division, area of shapes, long addition and subtraction etc etc The maths is pretty simple, the hard bit is the time, that's where I struggled!!

Will47

2nd Dec 2014, 12:24

Hi All,

I have recently attended OASC on the 16th-18th Novemeber and was just wondering how long others have had to wait to get a result?

I have been asked by my AFCO to fill out national security vetting forms and have been advised that I will hear back from OASC when this process is complete?

I was wondering if this means that I have been accepted as I have applied previously and got a letter back a week after attending OASC saying that I was not accepted, I was never asked to fill out security clearance forms.

If someone with previous experience of applying could shed some light on this it would be much appreciated!

Thanks in advance.

Will

Tashengurt

2nd Dec 2014, 12:49

Been a long time since I failed
OASC but agreed; the maths isn't hard. Ignoring the loudest ticking clocks on the world is!

Posted from Pprune.org App for Android

ChristianR354

2nd Dec 2014, 16:51

Recently sat the flying aptitude tests for the second time and unfortunately didn't pass for Pilot (scored 111). I improved on my previous score but I'm still a fair old whack from a competitive score.

What are the chances (if any) of improving my score 3rd time round next year? Has it been done before? Has anybody ever been in this predicament?

Having chatted with friends about the issue I've had a mix bag of suggestions but only one friend has had experience with the FATs.

Any advice or previous experiences would be great!

(Be gentle :ok: )

Cheers,

Chris.

SPQR92

10th Dec 2014, 15:55

Hi Chris,

Yes, it's possible I'd say.

I'm a greedy :mad: and have done the aptitude tests three times; in 2010, 2012 and 2014 (about a month ago).

My scores were 123, 118 (with a failed CLAN therefore an overall fail) and then 139 most recently.

When I first took them in 2010 I was very naive and basically turned up with no practice whatsoever (literally nil) and gave it my best shot; I even remember being a bit 'meh' when I was told I had passed. Therefore, when I retook them in 2012 I adopted the same attitude and got 118 and failed the CLAN test (the one with the coloured diamonds and mental arithmetic).

So when my third bite of the cherry came around, I was more than determined to score well. I practiced mental arithmetic like a mad-man. There are mobile apps which test you and I did them whenever I had a spare moment. I rehearsed SDT calculations and played video games as much as possible to improve my coordination.

This took about 3 months and it produced a score of 139, which obviously I was delighted with. You could argue I'm not a natural at aptitude but who cares? I got a competitive pass and I know I can do it (just) without practice from the 2010 test.

Good luck, keep trying!

MaverickPrime

10th Dec 2014, 17:43

Hello there,

I've been doing some research on the recruitment process for aircrew positions in the RAF.

As far as I understand it, this is a summary of the current the process:

-Apply online
-P2 Presentation
-Filter Interview

If successful:
-OASC part 1; FATs and Review (2 days)

If successful:
-OASC part 2; Leaderless, Command & Planning Exercises, Medical and Fitness (3 days)
-Offer of service

I'm aware that WSOp applicants do not necessarily have to score as high as Pilots, ABM etc in OASC part 1. However, considering WSOp is a Non Commissioned role, will they require the same standards in part 2 as those applying for Commissioned role?

Don't get me wrong, I understand that any aircrew position in the RAF will require hard work and best efforts 100% of the time, I'm not looking for the 'lazy mans' route to aircrew in the RAF, I'm genuinely interested in how they assess you for NCA at OASC.

All comments and criticisms welcome!

camelspyyder

10th Dec 2014, 20:59

Please apply now.

No-one else seems to be interested.

The halo effect of Helicopter crewmen on TV from action-packed Afghanistan is fading fast, and not enough applicants appear to be giving it a go. There are vacancies now for Rotary, Truckie fleet and ISTAR.

Get your papers in.

NDW

12th Dec 2014, 18:51

MaverickPrime,

I'm not sure if you still have to do a AST at your AFCO a before you can attend OASC a (of course on passing the AST).

Anyone able to confirm or enlighten?

Best regards,

NDW

DSAT Man

17th Feb 2015, 09:12

No AST required. You go straight through to aptitude tests at the OASC.

downsizer

17th Feb 2015, 19:16

As others have said, get your WSOp apps in, desperate for them now:ok:

4LongHaul

20th Mar 2015, 16:10

Hi all,

Newly registered, but have been perusing this forum for a good while since before joining the RAF. Just had a quick look at the most recent page of this thread and saw the familiar "Asthma" question had reared its head once more. I’d like to make some points, as I have a little experience with this. It’s a bit long but I feel that there is STILL somehow a bit of ambiguity around this subject!

As Levelling the Land points out, if you have had asthma that is it for you as far as applying to be RAF aircrew goes. None of this "I haven't had an attack since I was aged twelve" or "it was child-hood asthma and I barely needed the inhalers"; if you HAD, it that's IT. If the RAF see any mention of asthma on your history, they WILL NOT accept you. They simply don’t need to; since 1990 we have shrunk from approx. 90,000 to 30,000 and the UK population has increased from 58m to 64m. There is no shortage of medically fit aircrew applicants.

However.

If there are mentions on your medical record of you being prescribed inhalers or mentions of asthma that you simply didn't have, that's where you start getting a little wiggle room.

Story time! Aged 5, I had a chest infection for which I was prescribed the usual blue and brown inhalers. In addition to this, as was the fashion of the day, "asthma" was put down on my records as a potential contributor. So, every few months my prescription for the inhalers was repeated, which I obediently took from my kind GP and then simply put it in a drawer and forgot about it; I managed to rack up a fairly impressive collection of unused inhalers. Naturally, this wasn’t a problem until I finally came to apply to the RAF and was told that due to my “asthma” I couldn’t join. Obviously, I was mortified and did what any red-blooded teenager would do and sought for ways around it! Talking to my parents, they honestly couldn’t recall any asthma like symptoms during my childhood; they’d only followed the GP’s directions and taken the prescription without realising the consequences down the line. Upon approaching my GP for the PPRUNE approved “misdiagnosis” card, I was shot down in flames on two counts: 1. Who was I, a teenager with the ink on my A-Level certificates still wet, to challenge the diagnosis of a qualified doctor with several decades experience? 2. Her nephew had also been medically excluded from the RAF due to migraines, so it was just “one of those things” I had to live with. Not content with this, I managed to track down one of the leading thoracic consultants in the country and after several months of extensive tests and hundreds of pounds in private medical fees I had the result I’d been looking for:

- The wording in my medical history regarding the diagnosis was weak, and, coupled with my non-use of the inhalers didn’t suggest any real reasoning behind it.
- My lungs didn’t have the tell-tale scarring commonly found with past asthma sufferers
- I performed well above the national average during the lung stress tests.

On the basis of this, he was able to give the RAF medical board his opinion that I had been misdiagnosed, which was accepted. Result!

To summarise:
- If you’ve EVER had asthma, that’s it. It doesn’t matter when or if you’ve outgrown it, you CANNOT join the RAF as aircrew.
- If you’ve NEVER had asthma, but were incorrectly diagnosed or prescribed medication you can challenge it. However, the onus is on YOU to prove otherwise and you will not get any costs back, no matter the result.
- If you HAVE had/ do have asthma and you’re reading this thinking you’ll push for the misdiagnosis, STOP! 99% of the time you’ll be caught by the tests and there will be a lot of embarrassment for you and the consultant, and a lot of cash lost by you. On the 1% chance that you slip through the net by a lab mess up or other means, you have just put yourself in a position where you can endanger the lives of you, your crew, the 3-400 potential passengers down the back of your C17/Voyager and whoever else happens to be under you when you pile in. I’m all for chasing dreams, but not at the expense of others’ safety!

Apologies for the long post, but I hope this helps clear a few things up.

BR

4LongHaul

QA_270

31st Mar 2015, 10:42

Anyone any knowledge of the current situation at OASC with regards to Pilot Aptitude baseline pass scores for RAF and Army respectively?

JJ

jc71292

9th May 2015, 10:14

Hello All,

So this is my first post on the pprune forums. I have a few questions if someone could help me with.

I haven't applied for the RAF yet as I'm currently working on my fitness, maths and preparing for the interview.

I don't know anyone else's view on this, but I would feel much more confident turning up to the interview feeling like I'm ready for everything as opposed to only being ready for the interview.

The issue I have is that I'm now 22 and my time to get in as a pilot is running out. I know how important it is to exceed during all parts of the application process and would like to know what you guys would suggest me doing? I know it seams a bit odd to ask such questions, but I don't have anyone else to turn up to :)

My main question is ("I know you can't help me directly with this question, but would like to know if you guys think this would be an issue")
I was born with a deformity on my right hand, nothing major and all it is is that the fingers is about half a centimetre different from my left hand; Also the index is about 1 cm different "slightly bigger difference".

I have all the movements on the fingers and they work perfectly fine and because of that I wanted to come on here and see what you guys think of it?

I contact the careers office and they told me that they can't see that being an issue as I have all the movements on my fingers and as long as I could fire a gun it should be fine. (I used to be in the air cadets and used to do flying and shooting just fine.)
He then told me to go see my GP and ask him to write me a supporting letter saying that I have all the movements on my fingers, take pictures of my hand "back and front" and send a letter to Cranwell medical team to see what they would say about it.

Despite me know that this deformity doesn't affect my capability to perform any tasks what do you guys think the outcome would be?

I will hopefully be sending this letter to cranwell medical team next week.

Also could you guys tell me roughly what the aptitude test mark for pilots are now? it used to be 112 for pass and 140 ish for it to be competitive "read on previous posts".

Also what should I focus on studying ready for the tests? Please list them :)

Lastly. do you think I should apply now or at a later stage when I feel confident with my level of knowledge? Can someone tell me what the interview is like and what I should prepare for it?

What fitness tests are there? I have read that they are:

2.4km in under?
Bleep test of at least 9.10
press ups 20
sit ups 35

are there correct?

Also any other tips would be appreciated and sorry for asking such question as I'm sure they have been answered thousands of times.

Thanks
Jo

downsizer

9th May 2015, 11:24

Just apply. When you do, you'll fill out MSLs (Medical Supplement Leaflets) which will go to the medical experts who will make the decision. Anything anyone else tells you is irrelevant.

Pontius Navigator

9th May 2015, 15:16

I don't know anyone else's view on this, but I would feel much more confident turning up to the interview feeling like I'm ready for everything as opposed to only being ready for the interview.

The issue I have is that I'm now 22 and my time to get in as a pilot is running out. I know how important it is to exceed during all parts of the application process and would like to know what you guys would suggest me doing?

Fitness is important but so is evidence of your belief in a career in the RAF.

You are 22, "what have you done to foster your interest in a career in the RAF?"

If you are a university graduate that can explain your late application, if not what have you been doing?

You are only a few miles from two major front line stations, have you organised visits there?

As you imply you are unfit, what was the reason that only now are you embarking on a fitness regime?

These are questions you need to prepare for.

cmjw92

11th May 2015, 00:12

Jo and all concerned,

I've recently successfully gone through the selection system for Pilot, so I'll try to answer a few of your Q's and others on this thread as best I can!

After a successful filter interview at your local AFCO, you'll go for an initial screening medical with Capita under the new medical assessment process, where you'll probably find out if your hand will be an issue. As downsizer says, you'll fill in a huge batch of MSLs in the run up to it all - the supplement about your hand will be sent for assessment by the medical board at Cranwell. You'll need to provide details of your GP on those forms and I think Cranwell will contact him/her if required. Whilst I don't think that the deformity will be an issue if you've got all the correct movements and can still fire a gun, I'm no medical professional. Ultimately it'll be the decision of the medical board and they can afford to be picky.

The pass mark for Pilot in the aptitude tests is still 112. They say that a 'competitive' score is 125+, however a mate of mine got in with a score of 117, but he would have scored well in all others areas at OASC to get through and he was very fit. Your aptitude is apparently supposed to increase by 10% each time you take the test (12 months apart) and plateau at about aged 23, but don't hold me to that.

You can't necessarily practice for the tests. The only things I found helpful were practising quick simple mental arithmetic maths and inputting numbers using the number pad on a keyboard with one hand without looking - both massive time savers when it comes to the maths elements of the tests (quite a large majority of them come to think of it).

As far as I'm aware, the maximum age for Pilot is 26 by the time you start your training (IOT), so you've got time to brush up on things. You'll need to know a lot about current affairs, military knowledge, IOT and the Pilot training route (all streams).

The aptitude tests are conducted on a separate occasion before OASC before hand. OASC is conducted over 2 days upon a pass of the ATs. On day 1 you will be put into syndicates of 4-7 people. You will do the group discussion, group planning exercise, leaderless hangar exercise, command hangar exercise and then the individual planning exercise. That night the boarding officers will discuss and make their decision on who to take through to the next day. First thing on day 2 you will be told if you've made it to the next phase or not. If you have, you will have your final medical (anthropometric measurements, full eye test, blood tests, ECG, spirometry and hearing test). interview and then final your fitness test in the gym. Time until finding out varies, but they aim to get back to you within 2-4 weeks.

The interview at OASC is more difficult than the filter one, but it can never hurt to be well prepared for both. They'll ask you to discuss some UK and global news stories that have caught your eye in the last 6 months, so go prepared with 5 of each. They don't all have to be of a military theme. In fact, for a boarding officer who's been conducting regular interviews every week with many candidates, they will probably find it quite refreshing to talk about something different for once. They'll pick one story from each, and discuss and challenge your view on it. Don't back down on your view and have some conviction about your points, but don't get argumentative - they're just seeing how you perform when challenged and under a bit of pressure. Don't try to bullsh*t a bullsh*tter either, they'll spot that and waffling a mile off.

They'll ask you to name some aircraft, their role, maybe which operations they've been involved with, which Sqn they belong to and where they're based.

You'll need to know IOT back to front and inside out, how many weeks it is, the names of the leadership assessment exercises, what happens week by week, where you'll be staying and how it's structured. They'll give you a booklet on IOT in your P2 presentation that has all of the information you'll need, the RAF website has got a stack of stuff on it as well.

They will probably ask you to go through the pilot training courses as well. How long each course is, how many hours of flying (actual and simulator) what you'll fly, how it's assessed, where the courses are held, which Sqn you'll be with and which operational conversion unit you'll eventually end up on. You'll need to know this for each stream, fast jet, rotary and multi-engine. Again, the RAF websites goes through it all in great detail.

Lastly there's the difficult questions that test your substantiation and motivation for joining the RAF. Questions such as 'Why do you want to join the RAF?', 'Why do you want to join as an commissioned Officer?', 'What qualities do you think an Officer in the RAF needs to have? What qualities will you be able to bring to the RAF?' and 'What are the benefits/challenges of service life?'. They will test your attitude towards warfare by posing a situation (you're a pilot that's just ejected and the enemy are coming for you and you've got a pistol, you may have to pull the trigger on someone/you're a pilot, you may have to drop a bomb on a target.) and asking how do you feel about that? The interview is very fast paced. You've got 45 minutes only, no more and no less, to get through everything. They have to fair to everyone on the time allowance. You'll often find them glancing up at the clock above you to make sure they're on time, it can be quite off-putting.

The fitness test pass mark (Green) is, as you say:

Bleep test: 9.10
PUs: 20
SIs: 35

DO NOT aim for just these pass standards. Pilot (as well as every role in the RAF these days) is a very competitive role and they'll be looking for you to attain higher than a green pass if you're going to be competitive. I'd aim for light blue or more if you can, which is:

Bleep test: 11.07
PUs: 40
SIs: 41

The 1.5 mile run is not done at OASC, only the bleep test. However if you are successful, the 1.5 mile is the fitness test they will use at your familiarisation visit 10 weeks before you start IOT and sometimes throughout IOT. It is done outside, not on a treadmill anymore.

Overall: be enthusiastic, a pleasure to talk to, motivated, keen, friendly, engaging, well prepared, physically fit, maintain eye contact and try not to fidget during the interview, and try to enjoy the experience at OASC and BE YOURSELF! Most people try and pretend to be someone they're not, get nervous about it all, end up flapping about it and actually come off worse than if they'd just relaxed, been themselves and enjoyed it. If you're the kind of person that the RAF want, they'll see it much more easily than if you're masking.

This was just my experience at OASC. Whilst the process follows a fairly structured and regimented order, OASC is an ever-changing process, so be prepared. Hopefully this has answered a few of your questions.

Happy to answer any more that people may have.

CM

Pontius Navigator

11th May 2015, 06:53

On recent news in the last 6 months, don't forget the election.

One candidate, stumped for an answer, could not remember the 2005 election only a few months previous. And don't assume a Tory answer is a 'best' answer. Hold a view (on any news) and prepare to argue a point.

teeteringhead

11th May 2015, 09:21

Hold a view (on any news) and prepare to argue a point. Indeed so. One was at one time involved in conducting very similar interviews ;) and on one occcasion managed to get a candidate to change their mind - and then change it back again! They were just so determined to agree with me ........ :E

Pontius Navigator

18th May 2015, 10:50

WoR, personally I think your desire to switch from a high money career to a high flying one may well be a good interview point. The key point here is what proof you can bring to interview that your internship was indeed successful and you have that job offer.

Apply.

I would have sent you a PM but you have chosen not to receive them.

WingsofRoffa

18th May 2015, 20:51

Thank you, I will try to enable my PM's, I assumed they would be turned on as default!

I appreciate your reply and that is positive news!

From your experience, what would be the best preparation over this summer to really boost my application? I am already involved in team sports and the consensus regarding flying experience seems to sway towards being a blank canvas as opposed to a lad with a PPL?

Please correct me if I'm wrong,

Again, any advice is appreciated!

muppetofthenorth

19th May 2015, 15:04

Give them a reason to pick you rather than picking the fresh faced 18/19 old. Emphasise why your age and experience is a benefit.

How you do that is up to you, though.

Pontius Navigator

19th May 2015, 20:13

Wings, still nothing. You could send me yr email address if you can't figure out PM s

Waterwings2

30th May 2015, 19:54

Hello everybody,

I hope this is the right place.

I'm applying to be a pilot (like everybody else), but for the Royal Navy, because I like my socks to be 80% seawater and I've made too many enemies at home. I have my FATs coming up fairly soon - I've been researching them since I got my dates, but I thought I'd post here because I have a few points I'd like advice on. I appreciate I'm not applying for the RAF right now but as far as I understand it the computer based aptitude tests are the same for all aircrew applicants regardless of service.

I've been practicing my mental maths, Speed/Distance/Time and fuel calculations and things ... actually I'm quite looking forward to actually doing the tests because then I can have a break from the endless SDT. I've had some official notes regarding the tests and what to expect, and I'll just have to see how I do - I just have a few queries.

1. There's a specific memory test where you have to remember up to 15 digits or something in 5 seconds. I've been trying this in all sorts of ways and I find that 11-12 is my absolute limit, and it's not perfect. How did everybody find this test and did they have a particular technique that worked?

2. I've heard different things from different people regarding this - is a fail in one particular test a fail overall? Or is the scoring system a first past the post kind of thing where your scores for each test are added up to give a final mark?

For instance, if some prat (let's say me) got good scores on the tests but failed a specific test (... some memory one, for example ...) - would that lead to an end-ex on the whole thing?

3. I understand that the Navy weights tests differently for Pilot/Observer/ATC - since these are joint tests sat by all aircrew candidates, is there a separate system to decide whether you've scored highly for Pilot, for example, and not reached the standard for Observer, or vice-versa? Are there specific 'Observer' tests, for example, or is it weighted differently?

4. A friend of mine who was selected for Observer said that the test where you have to answer questions on the antics of a ton of coloured spitfires was mainly guesswork for him... I understand the purpose of the tests, and that they're assessing aptitude in these areas for a reason, but is there a method pilots use to keep track of a whole canopy of aircraft all doing different things?

I understand the importance of preparation of maths and things - I think it just gives your brain more time to concentrate on everything else that's going on, but I guess in the end you're either suited or you're not. I recently passed some civvy aptitude tests, but irritatingly they neglected to provide any feedback at all apart from 'you've passed' so I have no idea if I aced them or scraped them :*.

I've wanted to fly Navy helicopters since I was about 4 so I'm really hoping for a good result. I've had the privilege of wearing a flying suit for a few years in a very junior part of the RAF, but unfortunately it's convinced me I want to be wearing one on weekdays too. I'm just trying to give myself the best possible opportunity to prove myself; I'm aware that with a rapidly shrinking fleet, the amount of aircrew required to drive Wildcats from the decks is diminishing to single digits.

Thanks so much for your help! Cheers :)

Waterwings2

4th Jun 2015, 11:29

Actually, as it happens, I passed my fats. 138/134 pilot/observer.

The memory test is more straightforward than I thought - it's more of a question of remembering how many numbers there are of a certain type, rather than trying to remember a whole sequence.

The spitfire one did actually turn out to be complete guesswork. I have literally no idea how I passed it. Maybe I subconsciously knew what went on, but I doubt it.

I suppose if anyone's going to sit the tests soon they can contact me if they have any questions from a candidate point of view :8

NDW

2nd Jul 2015, 20:40

Interesting to see that the WSOp entry requirements have dropped since. They previously required a grade B or above in Mathematics, but have now reverted back to previous and only require a grade C.
Anyone enlighten??

downsizer

3rd Jul 2015, 07:12

NDW

12th Jul 2015, 15:32

downsizer,

Many thanks. I did consider that, but thought that answer was far to simple.:ok:

I'm surprised, I remember vaguely when OASC had a representative on this forum and they stated that those with grade C in Maths (results had shown) struggled with the AST/OASC tests.

Pontius Navigator

12th Jul 2015, 17:21

NDW, it is true.

Essentially the A-C (B) is a filter. It is the same with universities specifying the grades at A-level. The nearer you are to the base line, be it GCSE, A-level, or Fat score, the lower the prospects of reaching the frontline.

That said, your results are not the final arbiter, you are, try hard and you will succeed.

ChristianR354

28th Jul 2015, 19:25

Just wondering if anyone has a few SDT examples/internet websites based on aircraft closing speeds?

A bit like the terrible example below.

i.e Aircraft A is flying at 400 MPH, Aircraft B is flying at 200 MPH, if they're X distance apart how long...

Apologies if this has been posted before. I've looked online but I can't seem to find any similar to the above.

Cheers!
Chris

Pontius Navigator

29th Jul 2015, 20:32

Christian, that question would work but better in knots. Better yet at 420 kts and 180 or 240 knots. Play around with those numbers and see if you can figure why. There is probably references to these in this thread.

As for web tests, you don't need that, just make up your questions, work them out mentally then check your answers in slower time.

For example, you are in your car, you are doing 54 mph, you have 9 miles to go - how long to get there, what time will you get there, what fuel will you need assuming 30 mpg. Your journey is 210 miles. What is your eta? How much fuel? Hint - you buy fuel in litres.

Then consider that eta and recalculate the speed required for a different eta.

Real world, on the hoof, SDT will beat CBT every time.

As an aside, a good few years ago there was an advert for the RAF. You had to establish the time to intercept an inbound bomber. You had to consider speeds, fuel, distances to target, intercept and tanker. It was a superb intellectual exercise and pilots and navigators came up with different answers, all accurate but some better than others.

Waterwings2

2nd Aug 2015, 22:18

Hey guys,

As part of my revision for my application (combined with rampant procrastination), I made a little chart which details most* of the flying squadrons of the RAF, FAA and AAC. I'm sorry for any of the many mistakes I'm sure are in there, it's just designed to be a general overview and a revision aid. Just thought I'd post it here in case anyone else found it helpful ... I know all the information is readily available online, it was just easier for me to have it all in one place. Hope it helps!

http://www.dropbox.com/s/jrc7b3pyhjnh9ug/All_Squadrons_small.png?dl=1

*Hopefully. No responsibility accepted for incompetence.

The larger size is here:

http://www.dropbox.com/s/148pa5hsmldp1g3/All%20Squadrons.png?dl=1

Pontius Navigator

3rd Aug 2015, 07:17

I think you posted the larger size here. Please reduce size or delete and just post a link.

ChristianR354

4th Aug 2015, 20:19

Cheers PN!

I'll have a play around with different numbers, see where I get up to.

The only relevance I see with those numbers 180 Kts, 240 Kts etc is that they're factors of 60?

Do you know of any examples I could find similar to that on the aptitude tests?

Thanks,
Chris

Pontius Navigator

4th Aug 2015, 20:34

Christian, well done, now figure out why I chose those values.
No, just work your own examples.

You pass a road sign giving distance to go, how long etc, it is both easy and keeps you wake.

NDW

10th Aug 2015, 11:06

It's been a long time coming (certainly felt like it) but I've kindly been offered to attend my P2 presentation for WSOp.
May finally get that ball rollin'

NDW

13th Aug 2015, 17:52

Evening one and all,

Seems almost like I've never been blessed to even apply for WSOp.

Had my compulsory ophthalmic supplement (this is what is required before Being able to continue with the application for Aircrew (except RPAS)) filled in by my local opticians, and passed everything (or was found to be well within limits of all requirements) bar the stereopsis - having previous eye tests, some just months ago, never ever found a problem, but on this occasion, I was just off what is required, however with corrective eyewear, I meet the criteria again well within the requirements.

I fully understand OASC Medical Board will have the final say (and I'm preparing myself for a negative result) however, could there be an opportunity that OASC may re-test me if one gets that far? It would be nice for some good luck for a change :} It was all going so swimmingly.....

camelspyyder

14th Aug 2015, 15:56

Been there done that.

Passed the eye test at 16 "tests in advance" and 17 "Flying Scholarship tests",
failed it at 18 when applying proper. Luckily they let me resit at CME (after some coaching from an opthalmist who was married to OC Flying Selection Squadron). I passed :)

Wander00

14th Aug 2015, 18:51

Many years ago (late 50s!!) when I had my Flying Scholarship/Cadetship medical I was found to have a latent squint - CME fixed me an appointment at UCH I think it was, 3 months of exercises moving a point from a foot out in towards my nose and "Bingo"!

NDW

14th Aug 2015, 19:17

Cheers chaps!

I'm going back for a retest on Monday to double check, I'm certain (without gloating) I've passed the TNO test prior!

Anyway, onwards and upwards! Thanks.

NDW

18th Aug 2015, 12:56

Afternoon all,

Had my P2 presentation today, and incredibly excited to hopefully proceed to the next step. Good to meet others going for other roles, including one going RPAS (who is currently an Intel Analyst at Marham).

Next step should be CBAT at Cranwell :ok:

WingsofRoffa

14th Sep 2015, 15:24

Does anybody know whether the recruitment process takes place during the week or over weekends?

Cheers to anybody taking the time to reply.

downsizer

14th Sep 2015, 16:15

During the week. What's the issue?

camelspyyder

20th Sep 2015, 18:38

Are AFCO's not open on Saturday then?

Pontius Navigator

20th Sep 2015, 19:14

According to Google Lincoln is M-F though there is an AFCO phone manned 7 days a week.

downsizer

21st Sep 2015, 08:06

AFCOs are not open on sat/sun.

Pontius Navigator

21st Sep 2015, 10:03

Like I said, the phones are manned Sat/Sun:

BY PHONE

Call Hours: Mon-Fri: 8am to 8pm; Sat: 9am to 6pm; Sun: 10am to 4pm

FULL TIME
REGULAR
0345 605 5555

SPARE TIME
RESERVE
0345 606 9069

downsizer

21st Sep 2015, 13:20

Like I said, the phones are manned Sat/Sun:

BY PHONE

Call Hours: Mon-Fri: 8am to 8pm; Sat: 9am to 6pm; Sun: 10am to 4pm

FULL TIME
REGULAR
0345 605 5555

SPARE TIME
RESERVE
0345 606 9069

Not by AFCO personnel. Civvy call centre that pre-screens applicants.

Pontius Navigator

21st Sep 2015, 13:22

Still AFCO.

downsizer

21st Sep 2015, 13:25

Still AFCO.

Nope. Civvy call centre in Brizzle. Not a blue suit in sight.

camelspyyder

22nd Sep 2015, 19:11

Why do they not open Saturday?

Surely the footfall in (or near) the High Street is greatest on that day.

Or is this no longer the place where the Services recruit - all online now?

downsizer

22nd Sep 2015, 19:25

Why do they not open Saturday?

Surely the footfall in (or near) the High Street is greatest on that day.

Or is this no longer the place where the Services recruit - all online now?

I'm sure some won't believe me, but it's been done in the past, and recently looked at again, and the numbers don't add up. The vast majority of walk-ins and appointments happened/requested were during the working week.

Further, millenials (as the target demographic are now known) aren't really bothered by an AFCO. They want all the info on line, on facetube or twatter and minimal human contact. Their parents on the other hand....

Sky Sports

13th Oct 2015, 14:03

Quick question, and I only need a ball-park figure. What percentage of officer aircrew come from state-funded schools and independent schools?

Pontius Navigator

13th Oct 2015, 14:26

SS, OASC were not interested in such stats and it was not something generally talked about.

When i had access to student documents it was a part of their records I never looked at.

Applicants came from across the age range and academic backgrounds: direct entrants at 18, graduates from 22, internal recruits from wherever. Unless an internal recruit made a point of it we were not really interested in that either. Regiment officers and ex NCO aircrew tended to stick out.

Pontius Navigator

8th Nov 2015, 09:24

About two weeks ago I received a PM that disappeared into the ether.

It was, IIRC, from an 18 year old at university reading Engineering and wishing to join the UAS. In his past he had been prescribed medication but that was a long time ago.

He visited his doctor to see get details and see if he could be accepted by the UAS.

He had a shock.

It seemed that his brother also suffered badly and his parents had been collecting repeat prescriptions for both brother and himself 'just in case'. Looks as if he is going to have a hard time proving he is clear.

The lesson for parents though is that any sniff of asthma is likely to be a big hindrance in many careers.

NDW

12th Nov 2015, 19:11

[QUOTE]Further, millenials (as the target demographic are now known) aren't really bothered by an AFCO. They want all the info on line, on facetube or twatter and minimal human contact[QUOTE]

Spot on! As a 'user' of bookface - I recently noticed a post on the RAF Recruitment page asking 'what's the RAF recruitment phone number?' and with a rather angry reply from Recruitment stating 'the one you just rang us on' - was a rib tickler!!

As for the Applications; as CS I think mentioned; all are done online now - I'm not entirely sure the AFCO's still accept paper apps!!!

downsizer

12th Nov 2015, 19:40

They do not accept paper applications.

NDW

16th Nov 2015, 08:49

Thanks Downsizer,

I thought that was the case, but needed confirmation. :ok:

downsizer

5th Dec 2015, 06:52

WSO (nav in old money:ok:) recruitment to start ASAP.

If you score highly at CBAT expect to be pushed this way.....

Pontius Navigator

5th Dec 2015, 08:12

Put another way, it provides a fall back position for some u/t pilots that fail to graduate.

ChristianR354

5th Dec 2015, 09:45

I had a feeling this may happen as I was given a WSO score in my recent batch of CBATs.

NDW

6th Dec 2015, 20:37

Downsizer,

Out of interest, any news on how soon a time scale they'll start recruiting?

downsizer

7th Dec 2015, 06:47

Probably the new year.

NDW

7th Dec 2015, 17:26

Probably the new year.

That soon, blimey.

ChristianR354

7th Dec 2015, 20:25

Would there be a Fast Jet stream to see Tornado out or will it be purely ISTAR fleet?

Pontius Navigator

7th Dec 2015, 21:18

Who knows, but I would expect like the pilot stream, recruit for FJ and stream those deemed less suited to FJ. Later potential retreat.

WingsofRoffa

20th Jan 2016, 17:55

What is recruitment for FJ looking like at the moment? Non existent or pretty average?

NDW

1st Feb 2016, 16:52

Out of interest; any news on the recent WSO rumour of re-introduction of the role?

Hesperus1892

4th Feb 2016, 23:12

camelspyyder

5th Feb 2016, 19:09

Hi everyone,

Recently got back from OASC and recently told I was unsuccessful. Rather than wait another 12 months I am applying to the non-commissioned ranks and get some experience before perhaps trying again. However, do you get many applicants in their late 20s.

The boarding officer suggested it may be teenagers and would like to know if its worth it..? :confused:

By all means join as a tradesman, or NCA, but do not assume that you will automatically get another go at a commission. You will have to be a high performer in your chosen trade to get the chance and it may not hapoen before you get too old. Still you could follow my path and stay in the NCA world for 34 years instead - after passing the maximum entry age for Pilot before getting good enough reports to go back to IOT. :)

Oh and you'll need way better sentence constuction than that too!

Melchett01

6th Feb 2016, 22:10

Whether it's worth it depends largely on your aims and ambitions. If all you want to do is be in the RAF, then it might well be, and you aren't that bothered about rank or trade. If you're thinking it could be a stepping stone, as camelspyder noted, it could go either way, and OASC will expect more of you as an ex-ranker given the exposure you'll have had. That said, I personally know of at least 3 individuals who joined as NCO aircrew and went on to get a commission, including one as a pilot. So it can be done, but it's not necessarily easy.

Oh and unless there are genuinely no vacancies in the Branch / Trade you're interested in, or you are outside the criteria, just bear in mind that OASC will try to steer you down certain routes to meet quotas - they tried to push me into Med Spt to meet such a quota. So when they say it's impossible or suck their teeth and say oooh tricky like a plumber you've just called on Christmas Day to fix the boiler, bear that in mind and follow your heart and instincts and go for it anyway. I'd be doing medical admin if I'd listened to them when I went through!

Hesperus1892

7th Feb 2016, 08:53

There were a couple of lads at OASC that were rankers and said they asked their boss after a couple of good reviews and he gave them the green light. Seems much more supportive than the other services.

But the boarding officer highlighted the lack of military experience on my CV and suggested I go reserve or non-commissioned.

...but is Halton full of whipper-snappers??

Pontius Navigator

7th Feb 2016, 11:36

And I know NCA to Air Cdre.

Reference in-Service support, one son-in-law applied for a commission in the Army but his trade was in short supply and they turned him down. He found a loop hole and applied to the RAF. He is now a wg cdr after 10 years.

ChristianR354

10th Feb 2016, 19:59

Out of interest; any news on the recent WSO rumour of re-introduction of the role?

Must be a no? A mate of mine in recruitment has heard about the rumour but has no info on any future recruitment for the role.

downsizer

13th Feb 2016, 11:13

Out of interest; any news on the recent WSO rumour of re-introduction of the role?

WSO is currently unavailable.

WannabeCrewman

23rd Feb 2016, 23:43

WSO is currently set to re-open next year, in anticipation of manning increases for P-8, Reaper, Protector, and a couple of other platforms.

ChristianR354

24th Feb 2016, 12:59

Any news on a training pipeline? Didn't know the UAVs are set to operate with a WSO.

downsizer

6th Mar 2016, 18:54

If I was a betting man I'd put money on WSO filling from the ranks this year.

camelspyyder

7th Mar 2016, 16:59

If I was a betting man I'd put money on WSO filling from the ranks this year.

And then some. There is no pipeline for ab initio WSOs. Apart from the ANT at Cranwell, there's no WSO training apparatus out there. There's no MFTS plan to train WSO's. And so on...

NDW

8th Apr 2016, 12:20

Good afternoon all,

Just thought I'd throw this into the mix. If anyone is looking at or has applying/applied to the Royal Navy as Aircrewman and wants to know any info ref. the current recruiting process, feel free to PM or quote this post and I'll be happy to help.

I'm currently awaiting my AME Medical date and hopefully all should be culminated by September this year after Cranwell FATS/Aircrew Med (with the view that I'll hopefully pass everything).

Rgds,

NDW

CptDesire

3rd May 2016, 06:37

Any rumours if WSO will have the chance to stream FJ? Is it likely with WSO training for ISTAR that WSOp will me pushed out? I'm slightly confused how it can be justified pay and rank responsibilities for a WSO and WSOp to do exactly the same job? This is an argument for not down banding WSOp by the way, not that WSOs are in anyway superior, I'm fully aware in terms of capability each can do the job proficiently.

Pontius Navigator

3rd May 2016, 07:37

You are making the assumption that while the job for WSOp and WSO may be the same that the rank responsibilities are the same too. They aren't.

Admittedly a multi-tour NCA will have more mission experience than an an initio officer, and pay too, the latter ultimately will have more responsibilities.

ChristianR354

4th May 2016, 11:11

Surely they'll need to start recruiting WSO's before they're streamed to any aircraft type?

frodo_monkey

4th May 2016, 17:26

Any rumours if WSO will have the chance to stream FJ?

No chance, Tornado OCU shuts next year. Any future WSOs will be ISTAR - within that I include RC135, E3D, P8 and Reaper/Protector/whatever is in ISOs at Waddo.

Pontius Navigator

17th May 2016, 21:07

Jack, all candidates. It is not a test of maths per se but a test of ability to reason. SDT is not only a question of miles and minutes in s jet but also in many other situations.

Wessex Boy

31st Jul 2016, 19:29

Does anyone have a good contact at OASC to discuss a medical issue with please?
My Daughter is very keen to join but has a medical issue that appears to preclude even applying

downsizer

1st Aug 2016, 18:22

OASC don't deal with medical issues. The Department of Occ Meds do that.

Wessex Boy

1st Aug 2016, 19:13

Thanks DS, would you know how to get in contact with them please?

downsizer

2nd Aug 2016, 18:14

From Google....

R&S DOM
Adastral Hall
PO Box 1000
RAFC Cranwell
Sleaford
Lincs NG34 8GZ

But, I'm not sure how much joy you will get. My advice would be to apply, fill out the Medical Supplement Leaflets which will then get formally reviewed by the DoM.

Wessex Boy

3rd Aug 2016, 19:00

Thanks DS, will make enquiries....
We wanted to get some answers whilst she is 16 so that she can make some career/uni decisions during Lower 6th.
I'll put her through a CAA Class 1 this autumn and see where we stand on that too

Bugs to forty

13th Aug 2016, 13:58

My advice would be to apply, fill out the Medical Supplement Leaflets which will then get formally reviewed by the DoM.

I have to disagree with this. IMO just filling in the forms and leaving it to the 'process' would likely end in disappointment because Capita will most probably simply reject. Do write to the President of the Medical Board, DOM, at OASC if you have a specific concern. This should generate a straight answer and could save a lot of time and false expectation.

downsizer

14th Aug 2016, 14:53

True to a point, but the DoM won't commit to a decision on a speculative letter. And once you appeal a capita decision the DoM will review. All medical stuff is a minefield.

Jimbo12345

18th Aug 2016, 14:39

Hi, I Will shortly be doing my Aptitude tests at RAF Cranwell, does anyone know of any good online practice tests, also any good flight simulators people can recommend just to use on a computer/play station, heard they really help with some of the tests.

Thanks

Barksdale Boy

20th Aug 2016, 06:20

Does anyone know if food allergies automatically bar candidates for aircrew?

Wander00

20th Aug 2016, 10:40

Only if allergic to chocolate bars .........................seriously though, don't know, if they can deal with satisfying religious requirements guess they should be able to deal with allergies.

Bugs to forty

20th Aug 2016, 12:14

Religious requirements are quite different.
Food allergies can indeed be a bar to service, particularly if it's already on your med records and formally diagnosed. If you have an emergency epi pen, don't even bother applying; otherwise, it's a case of how severe the allergy is.

NDW

20th Aug 2016, 15:01

From the RAF Medical requirements page;

All Congenital, chromosonal and genetic disorders
• Severe allergic reactions and/or anaphylaxis
• A need to carry adrenaline injections (EPIPEN, etc)
• Confirmed food allergy
• Any history of a Type 1 allergic reaction regardless of cause
• Latex allergy
• Specific vaccine allergy (including tetanus allergy)
• Gluten sensitivity (Coeliac disease),
• Any confirmed food intolerance which results in symptoms
• Chronic fatigue syndrome or associated disorders

Barksdale Boy

21st Aug 2016, 01:30

NDW

Thanks for that.

Wander00

22nd Aug 2016, 11:47

Amazed anyone passes the medical these days - what would maritime rear crew have done with peanut allergy (only joking)

RearEntry

18th Sep 2016, 08:22

Possibly a daft question, but I can't see an answer in the thread.

After visit to AFCO, interview by staff, interview by RAF officer, and a day trip around a station, my son is still waiting for an appointment to have his medical. He'd been told by AFCO that six weeks without hearing anything is normal and that there is nothing he can do so speed up the process. He's applying to become an Engineering Officer.

Understandably he's nervous about rocking the boat by hassling the AFCO staff, but is it really the case that after almost two months of being told that a medical has been arranged on the system he's still not heard anything?

Bugs to forty

18th Sep 2016, 15:21

It's a real shame but sadly the wait is a necessary evil as it is in the hands of a contractor - Capita. Having said that, he would not be rocking the boat if he chased the AFCO; the AFCO are there to support him and the engineering officer branch is in surge so he's worth progressing quickly.

proac

3rd Oct 2016, 14:51

RearEnd

Capita in Scotland are V busy at the moment because university units for RAF Navy and Army are all recruiting for the new academic year. No harm in asking the AFCO to chase things up though.

NDW

15th Nov 2016, 17:48

Good evening all,

Been umm'ing and arr'ing whether to post such a question for a while, but I'm asking this for honesty, not as such, advice.

How many times would you consider a suffice amount of attempts at CBAT? Say from an OASC Selection officer P.O.V.

The reason behind is that I'm now re-entering my third RAF WSOp application, this will ultimately be my second attempt at CBAT, after slightly missing the required score in Sep'15.

I never wish to sound defeatist or I'm not one to give up easily, however, I have to be realistic and honest with myself that if after say 2/3 attempts at CBAT, if theres no significant progress shown, it might be time to call it a day.

I appreciate that each applicant has different aptitude abilities, but I've heard that your Aptitude doesn't change that much from each attempt to the next.

I hope the above makes sense and not some garbled nonsense. I'm incredibly passionate about joining as Aircrew (as I'm sure many of you know) and have been for a very VERY long time, but time is moving rather quickly now and I need to start assessing and being honest with ones self.

Thanks all.

Pontius Navigator

15th Nov 2016, 18:19

NDW

15th Nov 2016, 19:38

Realistically your next attempt should probably be it. At your last debrief they may have said come back in a year. What do you imagine next?

Just may be, application within the Service after another couple of years just might cut it. But think positive.

Thanks PN,

The debriefing officer offered the opportunity to re-apply and re-test for the next year and I'll certainly jump at the chance to re-sit.

Personally, its always been Aircrewman (WSOp) or bust, which I know to some may sound very ignorant as there are other fantastic opportunities available in all three services, however its always been about the flying and if I were unsuccessful, I don't personally feel anything else would come as close (again to reiterate I'm not being ignorant or arrogant about any of the other roles available).

I've got my positive hat on.

Best regards.

Melchett01

16th Nov 2016, 11:55

NDW

16th Nov 2016, 19:23

If you want to fly more than you want to join a specific service, then I would suggest being open to the potential of flying in any of the services. I only say this because whilst all services have similar requirements in terms of leadership and personal qualities, they did at least weigh their aptitude tests differently.

For example, when I was going through the application process, oh God was it that long ago?, the RAF required you to get a score of something like 110+ to pass for pilot, whereas the AAC only needed 90+. So, all things like medical, leadership and personal qualities and slots available being equal, if it's just about getting up in the air, you might want to consider all options. Just be prepared to answer the inevitable question of "so you've tried for X 3 times and failed and now you've come to us???"

Melchett01,

Thanks for your reply.

I presently have an application in with the Royal Navy as DE Aircrewman (just need to complete my PJFT, then I'll be ready to attend FATS).
As of early October '16, I re-applied to the RAF (I'm aware of the implications this can cause for attending FATS/CBAT and the 12 month wait between each attempt) as when I spoke to the AFCO back in Sep '15, I made it clear I wanted to re-apply as a WSOp when the time allowed.

However, since then the role of D.E Aircrewman in the FAA opened and I jumped at the opportunity.

At the end of the day, I never wish to waste anyone's time, however I've wanted to keep any other options available and the AFCO(s) seem happy to help and offer any advice.

Thanks again gents.

NDW

NDW

26th Nov 2016, 14:19

https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/roles/roles-finder/aircrew/weapon-systems-officer/

downsizer

26th Nov 2016, 18:41

WSO won't be open long for DEs given the number they are after.

RearEntry

30th Nov 2016, 20:57

apita delay in booking medical
Possibly a daft question, but I can't see an answer in the thread.

After visit to AFCO, interview by staff, interview by RAF officer, and a day trip around a station, my son is still waiting for an appointment to have his medical. He'd been told by AFCO that six weeks without hearing anything is normal and that there is nothing he can do so speed up the process. He's applying to become an Engineering Officer.

Understandably he's nervous about rocking the boat by hassling the AFCO staff, but is it really the case that after almost two months of being told that a medical has been arranged on the system he's still not heard anything?

My boy has now had a medical, apparently went OK, but because he had a few bumps and scrapes along the way - "have you ever had an x-ray for a suspected fracture?" - Capita are calling for more reports. That was over a month ago and weekly calls to the AFCO are not really helping although he is on first name terms with the staff now :-)

He walked into the AFCO at the end of June, today he told me he's fed up of the bar job he's taken to tide him over until the RAF kicks off and is going to apply elsewhere.

Serious question: What other organisation would countenance a recruitment system that has spent over six months since application and has still not got to interview let alone job offer?

MBA Question: How many good candidates are lost in the "system"?

VSO Question: What are the anticipated long term effects of the current recruitment process?