OFFICER and AIRCREW 'CANDIDATES' PLEASE READ THIS THREAD FIRST!

[Greengrass]

Hi T2 Tennant,
my son is keen to join the RAF as Aircrew. He is currently studying for an International Baccalaureate equivalent to A levels . He has been advised to go to Uni due to the recruitment issue and cutbacks. What subject will you be studying at Uni and have you been advised what subjects are recommended for graduate entry. Alternatively he is looking at the Canadian Airforce or USAF .

[Pontius Navigator]

Greengrass, any good degree. A 2.1 is good but a 2.2 and a broad set of interests and skills can offset the lower degree.

A history or international relations degree would be suitable for Intelligence as would a science degree - analysis.

A science degree would be an asset if going for logistics.

Many Cranwell graduates have BEng.

Many Admin types have LLB.

Languages can be very useful for many tours later on.

[Mr C Hinecap]

A science degree would be an asset if going for logistics.

I would disagree. A logistics degree would be an asset if going for logistics, but other than that, any degree would be fine.

[Pontius Navigator]

Mr C, I bow to your knowledge except that Miss PN, a logistician told me that a BSc was preferred to a BA.

[airborne_artist]

Greengrass:

First rule of Service life - always have a plan B. Your son is best off doing the degree he wants to do, not the degree he thinks will please OASC. The reality is that his chances of making RAF aircrew were slim and are now slimmer, so he needs a degree that will be useful to him later in life, or elsewhere in the RAF (or the RN/Army).

As it happens there is no "perfect" aircrew degree subject - they need to be numerate, but don't need a Maths degree, they need to be able to write well enough, but don't need a degree in English. They need leadership skills, but a management degree won't help. A foreign language is no bad thing - see if you can work out who we will be fighting in ten to twenty years time, perhaps.

I knew a capable Dark Blue pilot with a degree in theology, which always seemed a good choice - even if he didn't believe in God, he might have understood his mysterious ways ;)

[Trim Stab]

Mr C, I bow to your knowledge except that Miss PN, a logistician told me that a BSc was preferred to a BA.


Depends where you get your degree - I have an MA but it was in aero eng.

[Pontius Navigator]

TS, her's was in modern history and her thesis was on Air Power. She was too slight for aircrew and was aiming at Intelligence - I know, oxymoron - except that the ratio of suppliers to intel is 3:1 and they needed loggies.

[Mr C Hinecap]

There is a desire to see the whole Log Branch as graduates with appropriate membership of a professional body - but given you don't need a degree to be a Loggie, I fail to see how there can be a degree of preference. Meh - not that I care any more :E

[Herc-u-lease]

Depends where you get your degree - I have an MA but it was in aero eng.

Unless that's a Cambridge MA i can't help think the 'true' Eng content of an MA degree is limited.

[Melchett01]

Unless that's a Cambridge MA i can't help think the 'true' Eng content of an MA degree is limited.

And I can't help but think that the 'true' content of a Cambridge MA which turns up in the post automatically a few years after you graduate with a BA is limited. Much rather have my well-earned postgrad MSc in hard sums thanks.

[Cesc_]

Need some advice, The RAF recently put the maths grade up to a 'B', as nailed on is this grade as I have no time to be able to retake yet I can confidently do speed sums etc.

[OneFifty]

Cesc

Not sure what you're asking, i'll let someone else pick up that issue. The gcse grade required in maths is indeed B for the aptitude branches. If you don't have that, you are not educationally eligible to apply.

[NDW]

Cesc,

You may be the best speed summer in the world, but unfortunately you need that Grade B, especially in the situation the RAF is in.

As I asked previously, its a simple filter exercise, who has a B/who doesn't.

I was in the same position, I have two GCSE Mathematics grades both at Higher C, one was 9 marks away from a B.

I am hoping that in June 2011 I can re-sit one module to push the grade up to a strong B.

Best of Luck.:ok:

[T2Tennant]

@ Greengrass

Applied to do Maths this year, I chose to do this because it is what I am good at, your son should chose something he enjoys (he will be doing it for thee years remember). In terms of what the RAF think, I wouldn't worry too much (I think they care more about your personal development, maturity/responsibility ect)

Maths, Engineering, Sciences, History, English, Foreign languagues, logistics/management are just some decent choices of the top of my head though. As long as he doesn't take some joke of a subject where all he does is drink for three years.

[europaflyer]

Pilot intake for the financial year 2011/12 has been set a 0...targets for 2012/13 could be similar.

Source: letter of 17/3/2011, O/C OASC RAF Cranwell.

Like it or not, the situation is perfecty clear. Endex. How about giving this thread a rest for a few years then, until there is something to talk about?

[OneFifty]

Europaflyer

...because other trades and branches continue to be available...

[Craglyboy]

Well back in january I scored 130 they had just changed required aptitude score for pilot to 125 up from 112. So was given it bluntly that it would take 9 months for any movement with regards to a return to cranwell and it is increasingly unlikely to be successful this time round. Thankfully when I started my application to the RAF I applied for university at the same time and am now studying Engineering. So now is the waiting game.

Also it doesn't matter what type of degree you get just do something you enjoy and can use outside the RAF if it doesn't pay off. To my knowledge the only type they dont accept are art based degree's

Edit again; When did you go down MC19 when I was there, there was only like 15 people and only 2 of us passed for pilot to my knowledge.

[airborne_artist]

Pilot intake for the financial year 2011/12 has been set a 0...targets for 2012/13 could be similar.

Source: letter of 17/3/2011, O/C OASC RAF Cranwell.

Like it or not, the situation is perfecty clear. Endex. How about giving this thread a rest for a few years then, until there is something to talk about?

The RN and AAC are still hiring though.

[MC19]

When did you go down MC19

My test date was January 12th 2011 so was up on the 11th-12th! Was the same with me, except there were about 40 candidates of varying career paths and about 3 pilots passed.

I rang RAF Cranwell earlier to get some information on our positions. They said it's likely that I'll take my exercise phase around August, and that IOT is re-opening April 2012 at the earliest!

[Craglyboy]

Ha I was the day after we had a northern Irish guy from your who had failed by one mark because of the increase.

[Chrisdaman]

i had phase 1 of oasc today, the aptitude tests, and passed them for all branches except intelligence, and linguist WsOp, so i'm chuffed to pieces :D

got 127 for wsop
140 for atc and abm

the only thing that isnt so good is that they're working with "around september" for the earliest phase 2 oasc, and next april to start training should i be successful

rough with the good i suppose :)

[Melchett01]

[QUOTE] had phase 1 of oasc today, the aptitude tests, and passed them for all branches except intelligence, and linguist WsOp, so i'm chuffed to pieces

got 127 for wsop
140 for atc and abm

[/QUOTE

Congratulations, that's one hurdle over and done with. What branches were you actually hoping to go for? With 140 for ABM, and with the ABM and Int branches being 2 of the only branches I can think of that were completely untouched in way shape or form in round 1 of the recent redundancy announcements, you may well find yourself heading in that direction. Hopefully you would be happy with that.

[Jamesandpie]

I have my Aptitude on the 5th April and I got a call from OASC today to confirm I was still attending. I asked a few questions about coming back for phase two and she said that it would take up to 2 weeks before hearing back and it's likely to be around June/July before coming back again.

This doesn't seem to tie in with other peoples reports of a September onwards timescale...Also what are they going to do with everyone who successfully passes Phase 2 and are fit for Aircrew? Pick the top 10 candidates from a long list come April 2012?

I've been through OASC before and was thankfully successful through the whole thing and offered a Uni bursary, only hearing 2 months later I was temp medically unfit which has now been reversed back to fit. Since it was over 12 months since aptitude I now have to go through the whole process again, which is rather frustrating.

Surely they're not just queuing everyone who passes through OASC into a giant sift and then picking who they want a year later?

[Chrisdaman]

that would sound like what they're doing mate

my score for atc / abm was much better than the score for wsop, so i'm currently talking to the afco about adding another trade to my application, acting on the advice given to me at cranwell on monday

@ melchett - yes i'm looking at ABM and ATC (officers for both of them), it would be appear that i'm more "naturally apt" for those two choices than my original choice of Wsop lol, i would fancy ATC over ABM though, although both are cool in my eyes

[AmyElizabethP]

Just completed phase 1 of OASC at RAF Cranwell last weekend. I was expecting a much larger turn out I have to say! There was 5 of us in total, with myself being the only girl. The candidates mess looked set for in excess of 50 people.

Lets hope Phase 2 is busier! :)

[Braddersb]

I seem to remember from well over 5 years ago watching a TV documentary on a University Air Squadron. (probably BBC) Not sure whether it was a one off or a series. I am not getting confused with the BBC documentary series 'Fighter Pilot'.

Anyone remember the name of the program/ series?

Cheers.

[NDW]

I seem to remember from well over 5 years ago watching a TV documentary on a University Air Squadron. (probably BBC) Not sure whether it was a one off or a series. I am not getting confused with the BBC documentary series 'Fighter Pilot'.

Anyone remember the name of the program/ series?

Cheers.

There was a series called 'Combat Pilot' following a group of trainee Pilots at RAF Valley? Is that the one you were thinking off?

[Braddersb]

NDW - I've seen 'Combat pilot' series and it definetely wasn't that :(

[Albanian Seahorse]

It was called "High Fliers" and was broadcast on Discovery Wings. I had a bit of a search on the web a few months back, but could find any leads...

[funkyt111]

Hi people.

A short while ago the age limit for a military pilot in the RAF and NAVY was increased to 26. It was then lowered slightly to 25. Do people know why this age limit was lowered and if it is likely to be increased in the future at all?

Reason I ask is because I am 23 and going to university in September at Leeds University to study aviation tech with pilot studies. When I finish I will be 26 and approaching my 27th birthday. It is to my knowledge that you can be 25 and 365 days old when joining the RAF/NAVY as a pilot at the moment. However I will be outside the age limits when finishing uni unless the age limit is increased. I would apply for RAF/NAVY now but unfortunately I have been told I have to wait X amount of time before applying due to a past illness.

Any info is much appreciated.

Cheers.

[airborne_artist]

The Navy age limit has always been 25 and 11 months on the first of the month in which you join BRNC, so you could be 26 on the 2nd and join up to the 31st of the month and be within the rules.

The RAF may be similar. If you will be approaching 27 then you are knackered unless you can get a waiver, which seems less likely in the current environment.

You can join RMAS for the AAC up to 28, which may be your best shot, though you won't have confirmation of joining the AAC until your third term at RMAS.

[funkyt111]

Thanks mate.

So basically, unless the age limit is increased then its not going to happen? I wont be 27 for another 3 n a half yrs so hopefully things will have changed by then :rolleyes:

[airborne_artist]

The age limit will not go up for either Service, trust me. The RAF have only just raised it, and the RN have had it at that level for at least 30 years. There are already far too many applicants, so the idea of raising it and thus having to handle even more is a non-starter.

Now you know that the RN and RAF are out of the way I'd concentrate on getting into the AAC. If you do all the right stuff you could get your grading done before you join RMAS and be as close as possible to a place when you complete. The AAC, like the rest of the Army, like to get to know their chaps before they turn up on day one. Get known.

[Chrisdaman]

i just had another filter interview regarding adding both ATC officer and ABM to my application, and i was successful

so now, when it happens, i'll be going to oasc phase 2 with 3 / 4 potential applications instead of one

buzzing at the moment

[Flik Roll]

You can join RMAS for the AAC up to 28, which may be your best shot, though you won't have confirmation of joining the AAC until your third term at RMAS.

All Regimental Selection Boards are done during inters now (second term). Plenty of 30 year olds kicking round the AAC pilot pipeline at the moment. There is no one under the age of 22. Everyone else is 25 or over; with 25 being considered young and 22 ridiculously young!

[Eul0gy]

funkyt111, you could always join up as a WSOP and then retrade to Pilot after a couple of years as you can retrade from wsop to pilot until your 33. I think you will be streamed to rotary or multi engine.

[muppetofthenorth]

Yeah, because joining as a WSOp is an absolute doddle these days....:rolleyes:

[Eul0gy]

Did i say it was an easy alternative, just giving him an option that most people dont know about .

[muppetofthenorth]

There's a reason it's not talked about.

Yes, it happens, but it is the exception to the rule. It is making your life harder and it is by no means guaranteed. To suggest someone that they enter a career which they do not want and might then be stuck in for 20yrs... it generally doesn't end well.

The poster could try that route, but it is making his life far harder than it needs to be. Unnecessarily so, too.

[Pontius Navigator]

While I am broad agreement with Muppet I know of a Sgt AEOp that in fairly short order rose to become an Air Commodore (AEO). He avoided the greasey pole by standing on other's shoulders.

I also know of one or two other NCA that have crossed over to pilot but they are very rare beasts.

[muppetofthenorth]

Definitely it happens - there were 2 on my IOT - but there were also another 75 guys who had gone straight for Pilot. And those 2 WSOps knew which way they'd have rather done it.

[funkyt111]

Thank you for this advice. By WSOP, i presume you mean weapons systems operator? And by IOT i presume you mean initial officer training?

So you can apply to be a WSOP and once I finish my IOT then I can switch to be a pilot? I assume it is not a straight forward process? What the chances of switching and being streamed to fast jet?

Thanx all for the info. Very much appreciated.

[Kreuger flap]

So you can apply to be a WSOP and once I finish my IOT then I can switch to be a pilot?

That's right funky because WSOp's do IOT. Have you ever wandered why the are called Non Commissioned Aircrew? The clue is in the Non Commissioned bit. They do their own NCAAITC and then go on to do a further 12 - 18 Months worth of training before you reach your Squadron and then depending on your Aircraft type you will have to give a return of service due to the costs of training you in the first place.

You do know what a WSOp is don't you?

[funkyt111]

WSOp = weapons systems op right? I'm a little bit mis-understood on how this whole process works and if its even worth if if the chances are small of switching to a pilot. Could somebody please explain the whole process to me please.


Thanx

[Kreuger flap]

WSOp = weapons systems op right?

Are you asking or telling me?



Right, here goes, the whole procedure in detail. You join as a WSOp and you apply for a Commission as a Pilot a few years later. There you go.

[funkyt111]

I was asking, hence the question mark....

Is this a process that happens regularly? Do the RAF give you the option to apply for a commission as a pilot. If so, do you or anybody else know the success rate of this application?

[Kreuger flap]

The RAF generally like their Officers and SNCO's to show a bit of initiative, so could I suggest you go off and look at what a WSOp does in their day to day life.

Also did you forget to mention something?
Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia. Maybe you should contact your local AFCO to ask if this will bar you from joining.

[funkyt111]

I appreciate what your saying in terms of initiative. At the moment I am just trying to find all available options to me. I was completely unaware that you could join as a WSOp and switch. Now having that knowledge, I will do some more research into the role etc.

Yes I have had ALL. I have spoke to them already and it was impossible for them to give me a definitive answer. They said the guidelines say that ALL would place an applicant below initial entry standard unless diagnosed and treated as a child or early adult life. I was 19 when diagnosed so hopefully this is classed as early adult life. However, I am aware this still maybe a hindrance. I can only apply and find out.

[Kreuger flap]

Stop focussing on the WSOp and switching thing. The chances for you to join as a WSOp, give the return of service required and then being able to apply for a Commission as a Pilot are slim to none.

Joining as a WSOp is not an easy thing to do. Look into the role of a WSOp before you decide to apply.

[nofxpw539]

Does anyone know what's happening with WSOp training at the moment?
I remember reading on here a while ago that there hadn't been a NCAITC go through for a few months, anyone at Cranwell know if this is still the case?

Cheers.

[Mr C Hinecap]

funky - in October 09 you wrote:

Fair enough my knowledge of the military is some what limited, but before I apply to the military I guarantee that I'll know all there is to know about the forces and I'll be more prepared than I have for anything in my life. I have 2-3 years to prepare....I am at the moment, in no position to even think about applying. But when I do, Ill be as focused as any other applicant.


and?

[funkyt111]

still in no position to apply to the RAF and to be honest does look likely ill ever be in a position. Finished treatment leukaemia in 2010 and was told I have to wait 3 years before applying. I'm just pulling at strings.

[Kreuger flap]

Well, I am sure any letter back from the RAF at present would probably end.
"Unfortunately due to your current medical condition we are unable to process your application any further".

Come back to pprune in three years fella and then we will be able to answer your questions as at the moment you have no options regarding joining the RAF.

[Pontius Navigator]

funky, a few NCA will be pushed to apply for a commission if they stand out from their peers on the sqn. It was some years ago but at I guess I would say it was somewhere in the order of 10% but often they will have done 15 years or more as an NCO. The commission is more usually in-branch rather than cross-over to pilot. That is even rarer.

[OneFifty]

Funky


Who told you that you would have to wait three years? You may find that you have to be treatment free for ten years before being eligible to apply with a history of leukaemia.

OneFifty

[jobby89]

Hope theres someone on here that could give me some good advice about joining the RAF as a pilot.

Basically my GCSE results where not to bad but not exactly the best, I am in the middle of doing my A levels and they are going well... if I was to gain good A level results would they concentrate on those results more than my GCSE results??... I have been a member of the Air training corps, completed my gold D of E award, had flying experience and I have also been a fully qualified engineer for two years at the age of 21, I am also very fit and determined to get into the RAF as a pilot, would they take this all into account when assesing my application? and would it help?

thankyou in advance for any information passed on

Alex

[Pontius Navigator]

Basically my GCSE results where not to bad but not exactly the best

Do you meet the minimum requirement? Given you did them 5 years ago did you realise you need a grade B in maths and well as English and three other subjects?

[jobby89]

Thanks for replying... yeah I have the minimum requirement GCSE's mostly B's. Just not exactly straight A's but my A levels are going well. I just hope that with my A levels and my determination I will have a chance. I no that people walk in with straight A* grades but dont always pass the fitness, leadership tests or even have a good understanding of life in the RAF... Are they going to turn round and say because you havent got straight A* at GCSE's you have no chance.... sorry to be a pain, you probably get this message all the time lol

Alex

[Pontius Navigator]

Jobby, what was my first question?

You answered Yes. What more is there to say? Next hurdle is to get the 2 A-levels.

[NDW]

Thanks for replying... yeah I have the minimum requirement GCSE's mostly B's. Just not exactly straight A's but my A levels are going well. I just hope that with my A levels and my determination I will have a chance. I no that people walk in with straight A* grades but dont always pass the fitness, leadership tests or even have a good understanding of life in the RAF... Are they going to turn round and say because you havent got straight A* at GCSE's you have no chance.... sorry to be a pain, you probably get this message all the time lol

Alex

You could have the best GCSE and A Level grades in the World, but not be the ideal candidate the RAF are looking for.

As Pontius Nav. stated - get through your A levels (A choice which in many ways I regret pulling out of, now I have to pay for my education :mad:).
The GCSE's are just the first stage of filtering.
They need to be ideally at A-C grade, the RAF use to accept grades A-E at 'A' Level, but due to the recent cuts, they have become more stricter and can pick and choose who they want.
Being an ex-Air Training Corp cadet will help to some degree, it shows that you have experienced;

Drill & Discipline,
Leadership tasks,
Working as a team,
Flying and Gliding,
And a partial look at the reality of the Armed Forces.
All the best

[airborne_artist]

While it's not got a direct bearing on new officer applicants, it's worth bearing in mind that some, perhaps all current university bursary recipients are being re-boarded this summer. The aim seems to be to reduce their numbers by 30% or more. Those chopped will not have to re-pay the amounts already received, and those who are retained will be re-confirmed with a place on IOT up to a year after they graduate.

One thing I reckon will come out will be a rise in the pass score for aptitude tests for aircrew at least, which will affect those applying to OASC in the normal way. I can't guess on how high the bar will rise, but it seems pretty likely.

[Craglyboy]

I had heard it was 40% of bursaries were being cut. And with regards to an increase in the aptitude tests, it increased in January when I attended OASC at that point it had been raised 125.

Just out of curiosity is it still 90 for AAC, and what is it for Navy?

[airborne_artist]

Just out of curiosity is it still 90 for AAC, and what is it for Navy?

The FAA has had an implied level at 130 - although you can get to AIB on >112, it's been rare for several years to get to BRNC on less than 130 for pilot.

[Pontius Navigator]

As A_A says, there is a base line and a practical minimum. Bit like a grade D in GCSE; you have a GCSE but not one that is good enough.

[Unchecked]

I've seen a fair few WSOp (Cmn) return to OASC, be selected for pilot (and other branches) then commission and complete their training. However, I have seen a greater amount go to OASC and fail and then stay where they are without even wanting it.

Just so you know, funky, the training to become a breveted WSOp (rotary Cmn) will be 2 years minimum, with at least 6 months in an ocu. You'll then have to complete a frontline tour (at least 3 yrs), probably 2 (6), before your chain of command even consider letting you move on.

My moral is, only become a WSOp if you want to be a WSOp, don't use it as a vehicle to transport you to greater things, you'll only be disappointed.

[Pontius Navigator]

Unchecked it quite right. In the past where there have been rapid transfers it has probably been in time of pilot shortages. In the 90s there was a successful nav-pilot crossover but once there was a sufficiency of pilots the scheme was dropped - why train someone twice?

One commercial operator, now defunct, did not even retrain his existing aircrew when he got a new type in. It made sense to let people highly experienced on an old type retire and recruit new blood trained on the new type.

[airborne_artist]

RAF recruiters will become more commercial. Why lose a trained WSOp to pilot training (which he may fail) when he's already cost money to train and not fully repaid his training costs, even if he's done his ROS on paper.

A pilot with WSOp training won't automatically be a better pilot, plus he'll be older when he starts pilot training than a fresh young grad/DE, and thus a higher training risk.

[Wander00]

On the other hand his/her airmanship might be pretty good

[Pontius Navigator]

And make him more valuable on the sqn or in the OCU.

We all know sqn cdrs who have blocked people's careers to keep them and who have had people promoted and posted to get rid of them!

[airborne_artist]

Purely playing devil's advocate you understand. I was always surprised at the reluctance of the Army to commission from the ranks, and impressed by both Dark and Light Blue who were very used to it and in modern parlance, embraced it. Buying a commission went out over a hundred years ago :E

[jobby89]

Thankyou for replying NDW, I'm going to crack on and try my hardest to follow my dream

[NDW]

Thankyou for replying NDW, I'm going to crack on and try my hardest to follow my dream

No problem & and I wish you the best of luck.

I'm in two minds at the moment, I'm not a defeatist by any means, but I am being realistic that I may not stand a chance in the years to come.

I would love to re-locate to a foreign Air Force such as the RAAF or the USAF and try to pursue a career as a Nav (or CSO or ACO - respectively), but its those damn Visa and foreign educational requirements problems as always.

Might have to call it a day and focus on something else - speaking of which I was accepted into Merchant Navy Officer training as a Deck Officer - but not sure that it is what my heart is set on :confused:.

Time will tell and I will have to see.

Thanks

[jobby89]

NDW

How old are you? what sort of GCSE etc have you got mate?? Do you no if its harder to get in the navy as a pilot than the RAF.. I take it its the same, havent really researched that side yet. Have you considered the army air corps at all?

cheers

[NDW]

jobby89,

PM Sent!

[OASC]

OASC Statement - Pilot Bursaries

This OASC post aims to dispel the misinformation in earlier posts, from other contributors to this forum, about pilot bursars who expected to enter IOT in this financial year.

Each bursar has been written to individually and made aware of how they have been affected by the SDSR and the options available to them as a result. However, none are required to return to the OASC for re-boarding, although all are required to attempt the current pilot aptitude test battery. Moreover, OASC will not be de-selecting any bursars to satisfy a quota; currently a training place remains available for all pilot bursars – albeit not in the timescale that was originally planned.


Please note that, although OASC will endeavour to answer generic questions that arise, we will not be engaging or commenting on individual cases. In those cases, the individual is advised to contact their nearest AFCO who will be able to deal with any queries. All information published is for information only.
Information regarding a career in the RAF can be found at http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers)

[muppetofthenorth]

currently a training place remains available for all pilot bursars – albeit not in the by the SDSR and the options available to them as a result

Is it too much to hope that those who represent OASC are able to communicate in English? I can't be the only woh who thinks that makes no sense whatsoever.

[Pontius Navigator]

MOTN, a former member of OASC would agree with you; they could not make sense of it either.

We must hope that the letter to individual receipients of pilot bursarys is more litterate.

[Chrisdaman]

got my phase 2 oasc date through the post on tuesday, 19th july, pretty excited about it, much preperation to do

[muppetofthenorth]

We must hope that the letter to individual receipients of pilot bursarys is more litterate.

Was that deliberate? :}

[Pontius Navigator]

trash = litter

[NDW]

Morning everyone,

Received my eye-sight results from the OASC this morning via my local AFCO, and it wasn't good news.

I was told I am unfit for Pilot, WSO, WSOp & WSOp (L) due to an Astigmatism in my right eye (the weaker of my eyes). I'm not sure if this means permanetly or temporarily.

I'm pretty gutted, had my heart set out on a Flying career, not even worth considering for the Royal Navy or AAC as Aircrew as my eyes aren't even close to what they as asking for.

Time to close the door on Aviation and look into another career.

Thanks.

[muppetofthenorth]

Sorry, but if it was temporarily, they'd say so. An eye isn't going to correct itself to that degree.

Why does that bar you from the FAA and the AAC, though? Are we not constantly under the impression that their eyesight requirements are below that of the RAF's? Or are you now saying that your eyes have been discovered to be too bad for all of them?

[Kreuger flap]

Perhaps you can now take up the offer of the Deck Officer training in the Merchant Navy.

[NDW]

Kreuger_Flap,

It seems to be the best viable option at this time!

[Wander00]

Best check eyesight requirements for that too.

[NDW]

Wander00,

I already hold a ENG1 Medical for the Merchant Navy and I passed the eyesight standards for that in March 2011.

The standards were 6/60 or better in each eye. Thing is no Astigmatism was found during my eye test by a MCA Optician.

[OASC]

In this submission we will cover the updated Pilot Aptitude Test Battery.

Following a recent comprehensive analysis of the mental thought processes that are an integral element of modern day Pilot training, it was clear that a revised, more sophisticated, battery of aptitude tests was essential for the selection of candidates to operate the new, more technologically advanced platforms on the front line. In essence, the updated test battery better reveals an individual’s ability to maintain a high level of auditory and visual perception, together with rapid and accurate mental processing supported by sound short-term and medium-term memory function. Additionally, the candidate must have excellent visual-spatial ability and sound situational awareness in a highly dynamic environment. The updated Pilot battery consists of 7 different competencies that vary from Strategic Task Management to the more ‘traditional’ Psychomotor skills and represents a considerable challenge to the prospective RAF pilot.

The updated test battery is now in place and will take the candidate, on average, about 6 hours to complete (not including rest breaks). As before, the test will be scored out of 180 with the pass mark set at 112; however, OASC may impose a higher Current Competitive Score (CCS) when forecast recruitment numbers are low. Each of the tested competencies is measured on a standard nine point scale (or Stanine) and for each competency an acceptable minimum stanine has been set. Therefore, in addition to achieving the required overall score, candidates must also pass the set stanine score for each competency. OASC will only call candidates forward for the Exercise Phase who have passed the aptitude tests, and achieved a score at or above the CCS.

Aptitude scores are valid for 12 months and there is no limit on the number of times that the tests can be taken. However, as previously stated, 12 months must have elapsed from the previous test date before another attempt can be made. Furthermore, Candidates must still meet all the relevant eligibility criteria; particularly, if successful, they must be able to start Initial Officer Training before their 26th birthday.

Remember that aptitude tests are designed to test an individual’s innate ability; therefore no amount of preparation will change the outcome. However, our general advice is to arrive relaxed, well rested and ensure you have had a good breakfast as the aptitude tests will take some hours to complete.

Please note that, although OASC will endeavour to answer generic questions that arise, we will not be engaging or commenting on individual cases. In those cases, the individual is advised to contact their nearest AFCO who will be able to deal with any queries. All information published is for information only.

Information regarding a career in the RAF can be found at http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers)

[Kreuger flap]

Taylor. The only advice I can give you is to look at the great big thread at the top of the page entitled............................OASC 'CANDIDATES and WANNABES,PLEASE READ THIS THREAD FIRST (NEW THREAD). I would post a link to it but I wouldn’t want to do everything for you.

[jamesdevice]

well he's failed on initiative and observation then

[fast74]

Taylor. Good question. My understanding of what is going on at the moment is that the RAF is not recruiting for pilots. However, I believe there are a few residual applicants in the system who if deemed competitive will sit in a hold until required. My advice would be to concentrate on getting your A-Levels and once you have got your results visiting your AFCO to start the application process. You may have a wait before you are called forward but I’m sure the wait will be worth it. In the meantime, I would suggest that you research the branch(es) you are applying for thoroughly, go on station visits, speak to serving personnel, find out about the RAF whilst getting/keeping fit and keeping an eye on what is going on in the world. Good luck. I hope this helps.

[spuk87]

Hi Taylor.

It is my understanding that pilot recruitment is frozen until at least April 2012, so it is not possible to even apply until then unless they change their mind beforehand.

There is a quote from OASC regarding this a few pages back I think.

Sorry to bear bad news!

[fast74]

Your comment about recruiting for Pilot (and other branches) may well be true, however, you still need to visit your AFCO and register your interest on the Careers Information Line. This way, once the the branches start to re-open, your details will be in the system and your application will be processed. Don't wait until the rumours of the branches opening appear on here because you may miss your chance!

[spuk87]

Ahh OK I did not know that.

I went to OASC in November last year but since failing that I have given up the dream so am somewhat out of the loop.

Can you imagine how many backlogged applications they will have to process when they open recruiting again? :ugh: I pity the wannabes in waiting I tell you.

[fast74]

There may be a lot of people in the system once recruiting starts but this shouldn't put people off applying. OASC has got to give the jobs to someone so i guess as long as individuals make themselves as selectable as possible then they stand a chance. You have been through the process before so should know how to best prepare yourself for another attempt; assuming you are still chasing your dream. If you are - don't give up on it! Equally, don't worry about the others that are in the system - they will be driven on by their own motivation!

[tarantonight]

Krueger flap.

I read this thread now and again - plus others - and sometimes think replies to questions are somewhat kurt to say the least.

Your reply to Taylor04 falls within this and in my opinion was completely uncalled for. Who do you think you are? He was simply asking a question.

Don't bother trying to enter into an online war of words. I can't be ars*d.

TN.

[fast74]

Torantonight, I couldn't agree more. I am very much a believer that there is no such thing as a stupid question. It is a huge deal for someone to commit to the Armed Forces, therefore I have nothing but respect for those who seek answers to the many questions that they are bound to have in order to prepare themselves. I just hope the wannabes only take heed of those people who offer positive and constructive answers.

[OASC]

During this bulletin, we would like to cover the subject of Corneal Refractive Surgery for Aircrew. The submission is fairly heavy-going but it should serve to give you some guidance. As ever, if you need further information, you should contact your local AFCO. Please note that there seems to be an issue with the formatting of this message therefore some letter a's have been replaced for @ symbols for some reason.

Until quite recently Corneal Refractive Surgery (CRS) was not permitted in either existing aircrew or recruits, however increasing evidence has emerged, much of it from the USA, of the safety of CRS in the military flying environment. There are still hazards and problems associated with CRS which must be considered before embarking on surgery.

CRS may be performed by a number of methods. Photorefractive Keratectomy (PRK) involves the reshaping of the anterior corneal surface by photoablation using an ultraviolet excimer laser. The corneal epithelium is removed prior to treatment and grows back over the treated zone within 4-6 days. Laser Epithelial Keratomileusis (LASEK) is a modification of PRK where a thin flap of corneal epithelium is created. The underlying corneal stroma is ablated in the same way as PRK but the flap of epithelium is replaced and acts as a bandage lens. The visual outcome is very similar to PRK but pain and haze are reduced. Laser In-Situ Keratomileusis (LASIK) involves the cutting of an actual flap of corneal stromal tissue and ablating the underlying stromal bed, before replacing the flap. Disruption of the epithelial layer is kept to a minimum and this avoids the aggressive healing response that leads to the formation of haze. Pain is also minimised and visual recovery occurs within 1-2 days. For those with low levels of myopia, outcomes in terms of visual performance for all of these techniques are very similar.

It is impossible to guarantee the result of surgery as healing and scar formation vary however the final uncorrected visual acuity after PRK and LASEK is comparable 12 months after treatment; LASEK is associated with less pain and visual recovery is more rapid although LASEK does produce more intra-operative pain. The most common complications following surgery include dry eyes, haze and reduced best corrected visual acuity; more serious complications include infection, inflammation and problems with the corneal flap. Postoperative best uncorrected visual acuity has been reported at 6/12 or better (the minimum standard for pilot selection is 6/12 or better uncorrected in each eye) in 46-100% of eyes depending on the degree of initial short sightedness. It should be noted that postoperative 6/6 vision may be subjectively different from preoperative best corrected 6/6 vision due to a reduction in contrast sensitivity.

Aircrew are normally recruited at an age before ocular maturity when CRS may not provide long-term refractive stability. CRS is not recommended below the age of 21 for this reason; however aircrew recruits may be accepted subject to the following criteria:

(a) CRS by PRK, LASEK and LASIK only.

(b) A minimum of one year to have elapsed since surgery

(c) Minimum age at application of 22.

(d) Subject’s refraction to have been stable for at least 6 months.

(e) Recorded pre-operative refractive error must not exceed –5.00 to +2.00 dioptres in any meridian

(f) Post operative visual acuity within current aircrew visual recruitment limits

If the preceding criteria are met candidates are to be referred to the Consultant Adviser in Ophthalmology (RAF) for assessment by the Officer and Aircrew Selection Centre. OASC will continue to screen RAF candidates via corneal topography to identify those who have had undeclared CRS.

Corneal Refractive Surgery for Ground Branches

The following methods of surgical correction of long or short sightedness are considered suitable for candidates for ground branches on an individual, case by case basis:

(a) Photorefractive keratectomy (PRK)

(b) Laser epithelial keratomileusis (LASEK)

(c) Laser in-situ keratomileusis (LASIK)

(d) Intrastomal corneal rings (ICRs), otherwise known as Intrastomal corneal segments (ICSs).

Entry will not be considered for candidates who have undergone radial keratotomy (RK) or astigmatic keratotomy (AK). Documentary evidence must be produced to confirm that their preoperative refractive error was no more than +6.00 or -6.00 dioptres in either eye and the best spectacle corrected visual acuity no worse than 6/9 in either eye, in addition at least 12 months is to have elapsed since last surgery. There are to have been no significant visual side effects secondary to the surgery affecting daily activities or night vision and refraction is to be stable; as defined by two refractions performed on each eye at least 6 months apart, with no more than 0.50 dioptre difference in the spherical equivalent of either eye. Specialist visual function testing must have been carried out with satisfactory results at least 12 months following surgery, this is to include assessment of refraction, symmetry of visual acuity, high and low contrast sensitivity (with and without glare sources) or contrast acuity analysis, astigmatism, glare, corneal clarity, masked mild hypermetropia and night vision.

Please note that, although OASC will endeavour to answer generic questions that arise, we will not be engaging or commenting on individual cases. In those cases, the individual is advised to contact their nearest AFCO who will be able to deal with any queries. All information published is for information only.

Information regarding a career in the RAF can be found athttp://www.raf.mod.uk/careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers)

[OASC]

The OASC started to provide bulletins on PPRuNe just over a year ago; the aim was to provide prospective candidates, interested in an RAF career, with clear and accurate information about the OASC Selection Process and related issues. However, it was always our intention to withdraw from the forum at some point, and that time has now come.
Nevertheless, all the OASC Bulletins have been reviewed and updated, where appropriate, so that all the information contained therein is accurate today; however, it will not be updated again.

For further information we attach 2 links (below); firstly to the RAF Careers website and secondly to a new RAF College website that will contain information relating to OASC and OACTU.


http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers)


http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcollegecranwell (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcollegecranwell)


As ever, if you have any questions regarding the OASC Selection Process or related issues then our advice is for you to contact your local Armed Forces Careers Office so that you get accurate, informed and up to date information.

In closing, we have received many complimentary comments from those who have visited the Selection Centre over the last year regarding the information posted on PPRuNe by the OASC; we hope that our engagement on the forum has been of assistance to those in the process of choosing a career in the RAF.

OASC

[Chrisdaman]

i havent posted on here for a while, but i thought i would let you guys know that i finally attended phase 2 OASC at cranwell

it didnt end well this morning, and i didnt get to do the medical, interview or fitness and to be honest and i'm pretty devasted.

I enjoyed selection, and feel lucky to have got there, but the feeling of not getting to the interview / med / fit test part is awful, and i'm not going to lie, i've shed many tears today

the main piece of advice i can take away from today and the past couple of days is "dont be a sheep, stand out"

[fast74]

I think you are really brave writing your raw feelings on here. The RAF only want people with that level of passion. Let your emotions now be your inspiration to drive you on and help you develop yourself for your next attempt. I know many individuals who have taken 2 or even 3 attempts to get through the selection process. Their tenacity paid off in the end as I'm sure it will for you - so don't give up!

[Chrisdaman]

thank you

i think the raw emotion was a build up of things:

my application in total had taken 15 months to get to OASC, with various things happening on the way ie appendix removal, and after all of the fitness and interview preparation, it was an enormous dissapointment, because i didnt even get an oppurtunity to show the real person that i am.

also it wasnt helped by being 1 of 3 dropped, (the other 2 were uni bursary applicants), so to be the only 1 applying for a job made it alot worse. All of the officers were really friendly at cranwell, especially the duty officer (cant remember his name), but his job cant be easy and i dont envy him having to make the cut. I'd also been fasting from the night before for fasting glucose tests (had i got through), so i was exhausted, hungry and more emotional. Managed to hold it together through the feedback interview with the selection board president, and then got back to my room and let rip. The frustrating this is that a couple of years ago i would probably have been successful, but becuase the bar is SO high right now, i wasnt suitable.

Much to be learnt from the experience, and I await the feedback that will be sent to my AFCO, to learn from, possibly revisit OASC.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.....

[Pontius Navigator]

I'd also been fasting from the night before for fasting glucose tests (had i got through), so i was exhausted, hungry and more emotional.

I would guess that would have been true of all candidates.

I believe they have changed the testing sequence. Did you have the opportunity to eat before the assessments? If not this may be a useful feedback to OASC.

PS,

fast, thanks for the explanation. There is always a temptation to skip breakfast if you perceive you are short of time.

[Tommmo]

When I went through you did part of the medical on the afternoon after the second chop, then you fasted that night and did the test the following morning before a late breakfast and then the fitness test. That way nobody was fasting throughout anything strenuous, I would be very surprised if this has changed.

[fast74]

I think the Selection process has changed; indeed OASC have posted on here confirming that. Candidates do the Exercise Phase on day 1 then Interview, Medical and fitness test the following day. Individuals who have to fast for blood tests have their blood taken first thing on day 2 and then they take breakfast. They wouldn't undertake any assessment without eating first! Even young Chrisdaman would have been offered breakfast before going to his review.

[Chrisdaman]

yeh so day 1 is:

Morning Briefing and put into Syndicates
Group Discussion
Group Planning Excercise
Hanger Familiarisation
Leaderless Ex.
Leader Ex's
Individual Planning Ex.
Urine Sample given
Height and Weight Given
Hearing Test

anyone with aircrew on their application is instructed that from 2000 hours until the following morning they're to fast as a fasting blood test is required (after the cut)

END OF DAY 1.

Day 2
first thing is the first and only cut
Medical
Interview
Fitness Test

END OF OASC

note: the medical and interview may happen in reverse order too, depending on numbers

hope that helps, and yes i was offered breakfast after being told i wasn't moving on, but i didnt feel hungry afterwards

[Pontius Navigator]

aircrew on their application is instructed that from 2000 hours until the following morning they're to fast as a fasting blood test is required (after the cut)

Care to comment on the times?

What time would the blood test have been? What time was allowed for breakfast after the blood test?

[Chrisdaman]

blood test would have been at 0800, and then breakfast afterwards, then into the rest of the medical

[emc22]

Sorry you didn't get through Chris, thought you would have. For what it's worth I think you should go back to OASC.

Day 2 is a combination of:
Medical
Eye test
ECG (if required)
Med review
Interview

Fitness test will be in the afternoon after lunch.

If you get to this stage, you will not be given feedback on your performance.

[fast74]

You would get feedback on your performance. All candidates, regardless of how far they make it through the exercise phase, would receive a written report from oasc which outlines all areas of their performance. These should be sent to the candidate shortly after attending (usually a few weeks or so). If you need amplification on what any aspect means then your AFCO should be able to provide a more detailed breakdown.

[Chrisdaman]

you werent the other chris doing the personnel support officer role were you?

small world

and regarding the feedback, i had the meeting with the president of the selection board, and he showed me the written notes he had, these would be sent to brighton for them to type up and send back to me

[Kernow Jam]

Hi guys im new to all this i think this is in the right place.
I am going to RAF Cranwell on the 7th of August to do my aptitude tests for the first time. I am just wondering if anyone has any good techniques to help prepare for them or any sites with good information. Also I am a bit anxious about the interviews, does anyone have any tips or advice on them. cheers

[Pontius Navigator]

Kernow, you have read this thread have you not?

[StickyStickMan]

My first post on this website so hopefully it's in the right place, sorry if it isn't :).

I am 16 and about to start sixth form and desperately want to be a fighter pilot after I've finished my education.

I went to my local AFCO today and discussed my future in the RAF etc. I asked the AFCO guy whether gaining a PPL before applying as a pilot would help me or not. His reply was "It certainly wouldn't harm you, but it may not necessarily help you during the selection process." Not really the answer I was hoping for:ugh:.

My dad seems to think a PPL will benefit me greatly (because they cherry pick pilots during recruiting) but I think spending all the money on a PPL is a waste as you have to go through EFT in the RAF anyway. I believe it won't help me during OASC but may benefit my during EFT.

Also before anyone asks the reason I havn't got a sponsorship during sixth form is because I am attending a sixth form college in the Netherlands and the sponsorship policy regarding recidency says the sixth form must be in the UK.

I am elegible for the RAF before anybody starts questioning that issue :).


Have a look through this thread. You may also find that an "official" response could be forthcoming in here. Moderators.

[Pontius Navigator]

SSM, I think you are right. In my opinion you would be better placed improving other skill sets such as physical fitness, organisational skills, leadership etc. If you have, or make, the opportunity for arduous activities these would allow a more rounded development. Don't neglect more general studies and above all ensure you get good A-level grades although passes is what counts.

[muppetofthenorth]

In some cases a PPL makes you less desirable, because you'd have to be 'retrained' out of civilian habits.

Remember, though, that the RAF selects pilots. Not fighter pilots. If you're good enough - and the timing is right - then you might get a FJ seat. If not, you could end up ME or rotary, so you better be prepared to like that.

[StickyStickMan]

Thanks for your opinions. I understand the RAF employs pilots not FJ's, but I am aiming to be a FJ. But if that didn't work out I would still be ecstatic with ME, and the least I would want to do out of the three is rotary, however if I got rotary I would still be happy.

If the RAF didn't accept me, my plan B is to become a commercial pilot in the civilian world (or another career in the RAF, still undecided), but ME or rotary is a lot more exciting than commercial in my opinion, but I would still be happy with commercial. :) (if that makes sense) Basically what I am saying is commercial appeals less to me than FJ, ME or rotary, but I would still be happy as a commercial pilot.
:D:D:D

[airborne_artist]

My dad seems to think a PPL will benefit me greatly (because they cherry pick pilots during recruiting) but I think spending all the money on a PPL is a waste as you have to go through EFT in the RAF anyway. I believe it won't help me during OASC but may benefit my during EFT.

They don't cherry pick pilots when recruiting - they look for a combination of pilot aptitude and suitability for officer training. I had a PPL when I went for interview (for the Navy) and it made no odds at interview, and any benefits were almost gone within 15 hours of flying training. You won't get marked down for previous flying experience, but neither will you get marked up.

Spend your next two years wisely (and check that your Dutch sixth form qualifications are acceptable), and ensure that your results are good enough not only to get into the RAF, but also to get you onto a university course. Always have a plan B ;)

[spuk87]

I would agreethat at oasc they don't seem to be very interested in your ability to be a pilot and are more keen to see leadership potential and general 'officer' qualities. I got 173 aptitude for pilot but with a poor performance in the exercises it was effectively worthless.

[Pontius Navigator]

Spuk, how old are you? Do you have a plan?

At one time those with aptitude but short on leadership qualities were sent on Outward Bound courses to both toughen them up and give them the chance of effectively non-assessed leadership experience.

With a very high aptitude I am sure that everything else being equal that they would look at you a second time.

[Capt.YARKHAN]

I am a Canadian Citizen, am I able to apply to the RAF?

If so, would I be limited to what traders I can apply to?

[OneFifty]

You would need to have been in the UK for a minimum of 3 years to fulfil the residency requirement and you would not be able to apply for intelligence analyst, intelligence officer or provost officer.

[fly_surfbeach]

Happy New Year!
Can anyone give an update situation on the latest Aircrew situation from a tri-service point of view, hearing very little from the official sources nowadays!

Best Regards.

[airborne_artist]

FS - apply to the AAC and the Royal Navy. Advantage of applying to AAC is that all officer aircrew are pilots, but your AAC place is not confirmed til you are in third terma at RMAS. RN FAA will take you in as officer aircrew, but may stream you to observer instead of pilot, and you have little if any choice.

[ChristianR354]

airborne artist,

Does this mean that the RN FAA are currently accepting applications for Officer aircrew (Pilot/Observer)? Or are they (like the RAF) not accepting applications for Aircrew at the moment?

Thanks alot.

[airborne_artist]

You'll need to go to the recruiting office to be sure, but I understand they are. Or look/search/ask on Navy Net (http://www.navy-net.co.uk/newbies-37).

[Alexrey]

Hi guys,

I've currently just started my Honours year in Mathematics and once that's done I'm planning on flying over to the UK to sign up to the RAF or RN depending on which service will provide a higher chance of becoming a pilot (fixed wing). I obviously have a few questions.

1) When should I apply to join the RAF or RN if I want to start the training process next year? I read that it takes a while for your application to be processed, and currently it looks like online applications are non-existent as only a phone number is available.

2) I've noticed that in some cases there seem to be techniques for giving yourself a higher-than-normal chance of being chosen for fast jets (I'm not talking about just working your arse off during training, but rather taking certain training paths). As a lot of the people who plan on joining the RAF/RN as a pilot want to end up in fast jets, is there a certain path to take that could maximize your chances of becoming a FJ pilot?

3) Residency requirements are a big worry for me currently as I've read mixed opinions on this subject. I'm a South African citizen but a dual South African/British national. I've lived and studied in SA all my life, but my mother is a British citizen and South Africa is a Commonwealth country. Right now the fact that I am only a national and not a citizen would seem to make me illegible to join. Would academic and extramural achievement possibly give me a waiver and allow access to application? I know that this is grasping at straws but would past family history in HM armed forces also sway any decisions to allow access?

Thanks guys, cheers.

[OneFifty]

Alexrey, my post at the top of this page, number 621, will answer your question. Unfortunately, no waivers will be granted either.

[Alexrey]

I made a bit of a blunder in my earlier post. I realized yesterday that being a British national also means that I am a British citizen. And under the pilot requirements is says "Nationality: UK citizen or holder of dual UK/other nationality", so I'm assuming that this means that I will be able to join up since I am a holder of a UK/SA passport. Is this correct?

[Melchett01]

Alexrey - whether or not you are a British citizen still doesn't change the fact that right now we have pilots on 2 year holds waiting in the training system. To give you an idea of how few spaces there are in the training system and how many pilots they are trying to get through, we have just had a holding officer posted in to us for a full tour between his basic and advanced course. Not a normal hold, a full 2 year tour as a baby staff officer.

I wouldn't make all your plans around becoming an RAF pilot, especially if you are already 23/24. Unless you are already in the system, you would probably need to be closer to 20/21 to have a fighting chance of making the age brackets for starting pilot training given how little requirement there is for new pilots at the moment By all means, ask the question, but be prepared for an answer you don't want to hear.

[OneFifty]

Alexrey
Even as a British national, you will have to have spent a minimum of three years to even start the application process. At the end of that period, you would still need to be young enough to get the the application and selection process before your 26th birthday.

[Alexrey]

I thought that this quote below from raf.mod.uk put me in the "able to apply" bracket.


UK Resident less than 3 years
If you have been resident in the United Kingdom for less than 3 years, but fall into one of the following categories then we will need to complete further checks on your eligibility during the application process. In the meantime, you should register you interest as normal.


You spent time abroad for travel/ study gap year reasons.
You lived abroad because your parents were employed by the UK government (including HM Forces) in a foreign country.
You are a British citizen with at least one parent who is a British citizen and you lived with your parents abroad and you attended secondary school within the European Economic Area (http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf18eeaswissnationals#Q1) or a Commonwealth Country (http://www.thecommonwealth.org/Internal/142227/members/).

If you do not fall into one of the above categories, then you are ineligible to apply to the RAF at this time.

[Melchett01]

[QUOTE]I thought that this quote below from raf.mod.uk put me in the "able to apply" bracket. [QUOTE]

According to the criteria you mention from the RAF website you may be able to apply if you don't meet the 3 years residency requirement if you are a British citizen with at least one parent who is a British citizen and you lived with your parents abroad and you attended secondary school within the European Economic Area or a Commonwealth Country.

But you state in your first post that although you hold dual nationality you are a South African citizen and have lived and studied in South Africa all your life. So whilst you might fit the Dual National criteria, you might fall foul of that residency requirement if you are legally a South African citizen. I believe the British Nationality Act 1981 spells out the differences between nationality and citizenship and a read through might clarify which of the multiple categories you fit in to.

But if you are a South African citizen, then it doesn't look like you would meet the residency requirements you quote or be able to meet them in time to make the cut off of age 25 for pilot. You would on the other hand probably make the age bracket for WSO - 32 - but given their fairly limited future prospects, I think you would get some strange looks if you tried to go down that route now.

[Biggus]

Melchett01,

I presume you mean WSOp. The RAF no longer recruits, or trains, WSOs!!

Aircrew - Pilot careers, aviation jobs and information - RAF Careers (http://www.raf.mod.uk/careers/jobs/aircrew.cfm)

[Melchett01]

Ahhh lose a point for spelling errors - I remember that old chestnut as to why you could never get 100% on an exam.

I do indeed mean WSOp, but at the end of the day, it's still all talking freight :E

[Alexrey]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'll have a look into the citizenship details. I do remember though that when I looked at my passport I saw that under "British National" it also said "British Citizen". Are there different citizen "types" that someone can have?

With regards to all of the pilot hold-ups, is this just for fast-jets or all airframes, as I am happy flying any fixed-wing aircraft that they have to offer (although obviously if you make the effort to join up, its best to aim high). I'm guessing that you referred to all airframes.

When you say that they aren't training anymore WSOs, are you referring to Tornado WSOs? Is because the Tornado will be phased out soon by the Typhoon and the F-35?

WSOp may be a last resort route that I will take, since it sounds like it would still be very interesting. Would the possibility of changing over to a pilot be possible a few years down the line, once I've made it as a WSOp, if I show promise and determination?

[MrWomble]

Alexrey,

While I'm no official source of recruitment information, or a former officer, I do know from my previous RAF recruitment research that you have a huge gap in your understanding of how the RAF recruit officers or SNCOs for flying duties, whether pilot or WSOp, not only on the areas of nationality and age but also streaming and the branch's evolution.

[Melchett01]

PN - I think SA degrees are 3 years with your honours needing a 4th year at the end of your Bachelors degree.

[DSAT Man]

This is a really simple answer. We are neither recruiting, nor selecting, RAF aircrew in FY 12/13.

[Alexrey]

Yes, Honours in SA is 4 years, so when I posted that I was at the end of my 2nd year and going onto my third. Since then I've finished 3rd year and have just started my 4th (honours) year.

Alexrey,

While I'm no official source of recruitment information, or a former officer, I do know from my previous RAF recruitment research that you have a huge gap in your understanding of how the RAF recruit officers or SNCOs for flying duties, whether pilot or WSOp, not only on the areas of nationality and age but also streaming and the branch's evolution.I realise that you don't just walk into the RAF and then jump into whatever you want. I know that people are streamed to different airframes based on requirements and pilot ability, but I thought that maybe fast-jet training would have been in a bigger hold-up than other lines due to very limited airframe numbers, whereas other lines might have been more free. I agree, my post was kinda ambiguous; apologies.

Not recruiting in FY 2012/2013? That's pretty much some of the worst damn news I've ever heard. I guess I'll still be keeping my ear to the ground to try and find out if anything has changed in the near future. It's not the best feeling to find out that after working your heart out for years, you realize that you were essentially born in the wrong time period.

Thanks for your help guys.

[cazatou]

I must confess that I am at a total loss as to why Alexrey did not contact the Defence Staff at the British High Commission in South Africa to ascertain the best way forward to achieving his aim.:ugh:

[Alexrey]

The case seems to be that I will be too old by a few months by the time recruiting starts again. If what DSAT Man said is correct, then FY 13 will end in April 2014 and I will then be 25 years old. You have to be 25 years old by the time you start pilot training which, as far as I know, comes after officer training. So I will most likely be 26 years old by the time I even get into an aircraft. Is this the case, or have I made a few calculation errors (I hope I have in this case).

[cazatou]

Alexrey

It appears from the information you have provided that the Residency requirement means that you will be too old to commence Pilot Training by the time that the Residence requirement has been satisfied.

If you had contacted the British High Commission in South Africa then the Military Staff could have explained every Requirement to you.

PS

I think you will find that you are incorrect in your belief that you have to be 25 years old to commence Flying Training - I started at 19 years old having completed Initial Officer Training, served in the Gulf, the Caribbean and Europe and had passed the CFS Course as a QFI by the age of 25 years.

[Sand4Gold]

If what DSAT Man said is correct

Alexrey, like you, I haven't a clue who DSAT Man is? This is a rumour network, you simply cannot base life decisions on what you read on such a site - when you are ready to do so, write to the RAF/RN/AAC (as appropriate) with all the relevant information that they may need to consider your enquiry/application - then, again, base any decision on the responses you receive from each Service.

I wish you well.

S4G

[OneFifty]

Alexrey, you seem to want to ignore answers which you don't want to hear. I am a RAF recruiter, I deal with the processing of officer applications including pilot. As well as other factors, your age and residency are against you. You need to now be looking at alternatives. As previously asked, what about your own air force? I know it's harsh and very disappointing, but there are literally hundreds of other applicants who will be seen as less of a risk.

Good luck with whatever direction you choose to go.

[Alexrey]

Thanks for your replies guys.

Pontius Navigator I'm guessing you mean the SAAF not the RSAF? I might just have to join up with them, but I'm not too keen to, as by all reports they seem to be very underskilled and falling apart.

I will look into my UK residency standing further and make a decision from there. Cheers guys.

[cazatou]

Alexrey

You stated in your original posting on this thread " I've lived and studied in SA all my life". If that statement was correct then it would appear that you have not been Resident in the UK at any time in your life and you would therefore not comply with the minimum 3 year Residency requirement before you can even be considered for attendance at the Officer & Aircrew Selection Centre.

[Alexrey]

Guys, I know I'm beating a dead horse regarding this topic, but replies on this forum and requirements posted on www.raf.mod.uk (http://www.raf.mod.uk) are causing some ambiguities. This is what the RAF website has under nationality requirements:

You must meet certain nationality and residency criteria to join the RAF. To see if you qualify, please read the information below.Nationality

To be eligible to apply for any RAF job, you must fall into one of the following categories:


British Citizen
British National
British/Dual National
Commonwealth Citizen
Irish Republic National

I am a British Citizen (the words "British Citizen" are printed in my passport next to my photo), so I meet nationality requirements.

Under the residency requirements the RAF website has the following:

Residency
As well as meeting nationality requirements, you must also meet certain residency criteria to be eligible to apply for a job in the RAF.

UK Resident less than 3 years
If you have been resident in the United Kingdom for less than 3 years, but fall into one of the following categories then we will need to complete further checks on your eligibility during the application process. In the meantime, you should register you interest as normal.


You spent time abroad for travel/ study gap year reasons.
You lived abroad because your parents were employed by the UK government (including HM Forces) in a foreign country.
You are a British citizen with at least one parent who is a British citizen and you lived with your parents abroad and you attended secondary school within the European Economic Area (http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/howtoapply/infs/inf18eeaswissnationals#Q1) or a Commonwealth Country (http://www.thecommonwealth.org/Internal/142227/members/).

As I have stated above, I am a British Citizen. Also, my mother is a British Citizen and we live in South Africa which is a Commonwealth Country. So with these two criteria met, I should be completely eligible to apply for a position in the RAF. Is there something that I'm just not seeing, or is the information on the RAF's website out of date?

[cazatou]

Alexrey

The point is quite simple; you have not been Resident in the UK at any time - even for a single day.

The Recruiting Officer who posted on this thread pointed out that your history would not comply with the Residential requirements which require 3 years Residence in the UK for you to be considered.

[Alexrey]

Well that is contrary to what my above quote from the RAF website says, as it implies that as long as I am a British citizen, have a parent who is a British citizen, and have studied in a Commonwealth country, then I am eligible to apply to the RAF. Clearly there is a contradiction, and either the statement above is correct or the statement made by OneFifty is correct. If OneFifty is correct then it would have been nice of the RAF to actually give correct requirements on their website instead of stringing people along with a false sense of security.

I know that this plays no role in the ability for me to be considered a vaild applicant or not, as that is clearly a bureaucratic decision, but my family have been a part of HM forces for quite a while. My great grandfather fought in the Battle of Jutland as a young man and eventually ended his naval career as a Rear Admiral whereas my grandfather, who was awarded the sword of honour at Sandhurst during his officer training, fought in WWII as a Major General. I definitely don't see myself as a risky choice, but I know that rules are rules and if you're seen as a "risk" by bureaucratic standards, then you are seen as a risk outright and there is little to nothing that can be done to change that view.

[Sand4Gold]

Alexrey, I grew up in Central Africa but I couldn't join the RAF whilst domiciled, I physically had to come to London to live (I then applied via a local RAF Careers Information Office - that was back in 1971). It's how you choose to interpret 'UK Resident Less Than 3 Years' that is causing you to continuously challenge - clearly, you cannot apply to join the RAF while resident in South Africa, simples.

S4G

[cazatou]

Alexrey

I understand your frustration BUT the rules clearly state the requirements in respect of the criteria required to satisfy the enrolment of personnel in Flying Training. When I attended OASC (more years ago than I care to remember) of the 30+ candidates being interviewed only 3 were accepted - of those 3 one failed to reach the standard required to be awarded his "Wings".

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

it would have been nice of the RAF to actually give correct requirements on their website instead of stringing people along with a false sense of security.Alexrey,

To reinforce the point being made by those trying to help you see your problem, the bit of the puzzle that you seem to be missing, is this - at no point have you been a resident of the UK. Not for "a minium of 5 years", nor "between 3 and 5 years", nor for "less than 3 years". You haven't lived in the UK, so the very final line of that section, in bold, clearly states:

If you do not fall into one of the above categories, then you are ineligible to apply to the RAF at this time.Quite clear really. So, until such time that you have applied to reside in the UK, have had that application approved, and you then actually move to, and live in, the UK then you just don't meet the criteria!

What is more, even if you do perhaps get to reside in the UK, you have to fall in to one of the three categories you quoted, and the RAF "will need to complete further checks on your eligibility during the application process. This will likely include checking your employment history in the UK and criminal record check. They are unlikely to take you on unless you have been resident for at least 2 years, which they consider the minimum to show proof of willingness to remain in the UK. I know the latter from personal experience. Within those 2 years they will want to see proof that you have worked (slobbing around on the family trust fund, or similar, is unlikely to cut the mustard ;)) and have settled. You have to show 'willing and able'!

Does that make it clearer now?

[Ray Dahvectac]

Alexrey, put very simply you are missing one vital point which you yourself have quoted:

Residency
AS WELL AS meeting nationality requirements, you must also meet certain residency criteria to be eligible to apply for a job in the RAF.

You need to qualify under BOTH nationality and residency. Unfortunately, you don't meet the residency criteria.

[Alexrey]

Thanks for the replies guys, that makes a lot more sense. I guess I'll be heading over to the UK to see what I can do about this issue. Looks like my chances of having any success are next to nothing, but hey I'm young(ish) and don't have any other plan for my life at the moment. Cheers!

[Alexrey]

I was planning on writing to the RAF two years ago actually but I thought that that would not matter since they'd just direct me to the application zone. But since there is no application zone at the moment I thought the next best thing would just be to show face and hope for the best. Now that you mention it, I think that writing to them would be the best move. I'll send some questions off at the end of this week once I've finished my first term of uni.

[Pontius Navigator]

One question that candidates may be asked is:

"How long have you been interested in a career in the Royal Air Force?"

the next question is likely to be:

"What have you done to foster this interest?"

then they may ask:

"Why didn't you contact us 2-3 years ago?"

Candidates would be well advised to mug up answers on what are banker questions.

A similar set may include hobbies, sports etc.

[cazatou]

Alexrey


What you are looking at is:-

Initial Officer Training

Basic Flying Training

Advanced Flying Training

Operational Conversion Unit

These will take at least three years possibly four

Then there are Survival Courses

Escape and Evasion Courses

Then you have to accept that there are other duties that take up your attention which have nothing to do with flying but are concerned with the Welfare of the Personnel who help to keep the aircraft and the Station Operational

[Pontius Navigator]

the SAAF . . . I might just have to join up with them, but I'm not too keen to, as by all reports they seem to be very underskilled and falling apart.

I should have followed up on this before. It is likely to be a question at OASC if you ever get that far.

If you are any good, good enough for the RAF, then you would be ideally placed to help upskill the SAAF.

According to Wikipedia, which seems to support you contention, the SAAF is short of over 130 pilots. That shortage is roughly six times the requirement for the RAF and we are not short of applicants.

The more you post here the less does it seem to have to do with your wanting to fly and the more with getting out of South Africa. Certainly some I met were of that mind although others enjoyed every minute of it.

PS, whether your name is AlexRey or not you can be sure that you will be known before you get to AFCO or OASC.

[cazatou]

Alexrey's Age is given as 23; therefore when he has completed his final year at University he will be Aged 24.

If he then has to comply with the 3 year Residence requirement he will be Aged 27 years - which is 2 years above the maximum Age of 25 years for commencing Pilot Training.

What he should have done was to study for his degree at a UK University which had an affiliated UAS.

[Alexrey]

PN, I realize that the SAAF is short of skilled personnel but one of the primary reasons for my unwillingness to apply was because of my worry that my career in the SAAF would not be fulfilling in terms of flight hours received, and professionalism as a whole would not be as high as that of the RAF due to this lack of skill. If the RAF was based in South Africa I would have signed up to it in no time flat.

Caz, I am not worried about the number of years that it will take to get me fully trained as a military pilot and I'm happy that the RAF makes its pilots take into consideration the hard work that everyone puts in to keep their aircraft running and to allow their way of life to continue. I spent the last 3 years of my university career working on subjects that I had no real interest in, in order to have a competitive CV for the RAF to take a look at, and obtained a BSc in Mathematics with distinction and Geography with an upper second, whilst I could have just as easily spent each night out with my friends drinking my nights away and having a good time. I only got those results because I focused on what I wanted to do with my life. Hindsight is 20/20 and I damn well wish that I had chosen to study in the UK from the get go as it would have made this avoidable issue disappear. I'm being a bit of a whining retard so I'll stop myself and get on with trying to contact the RAF. If they give me a chance though I'll sign on the dotted line faster than they can say "sign on the dotted line".

Cheers.

[OneFifty]

Right, this has gone onlong enough now. Alexrey, you are not going to be a pilot in the RAF. You have been told this more than once. You say you have spent your time trying to gain a more competitive CV to bring to the RAF... you DO NOT need a degree to join as a pilot. Once you have the GCSEs and A-levels, (or equivalents) it is your performance at OASC which determines your competitiveness. Had you made contact when you first decided that this is what you wanted to do then you would have been told that, along with the residency requirements. You say you will continue to try and contactthe RAF... you should have done this YEARS ago! You were told to do it when you first posted yet you STILL haven't! The RAF will not give you a chance; you have already been given the reason why.

I am sorry to have to beharsh with you (again) but this is the truth of the matter. Other officer roleswould still be open to you once you have satisfied the residency requirement.

[Pontius Navigator]

. . .Some other, but not all, officer roles would still be open to you once you have satisfied the residency requirement.

And one other point, you have not stated that you have the minimum GCSE/A-level equivalent grades. A degree in Rocket Science does not exempt a candidate from even the 5 GCSE including English and Maths.

[OneFifty]

PN

Thank you for making that clear.

[cazatou]

PN

A good point - often overlooked.

At the end of the day it is the Basics that count!!

[Alexrey]

Thanks for your help guys and I apologize for wasting your time. I know I sounded like a cocky little prick who was better than everybody else in that last post but that was not my intention, sorry I guess I was trying to sell myself too much.

Cheers.

[Pontius Navigator]

Alexrey, you seem to want to ignore answers which you don't want to hear.

Alex, you have done it again. You have ignored the hints regarding when and why and how longb you have wanted to join the RAF.

you DO NOT need a degree to join as a pilot. Once you have the GCSEs and A-levels, (or equivalents) it is your performance at OASC which determines your competitiveness.

You have ducked the issue about your basic educational qualifications. I don't know their equivalences but I am sure OneFifty does.

The point about degrees and life-style choices has been made several times earlier in this thread. The chances of any one applicant being accepted as an officer candidate are vanishingly small - you see that was true of pilot candidates that were made redundant before completing training.

The RAF actually prefers a mix of pre-university and graduates. The former tend to be younger, more flexible, have greater potential for development, and are in the system longer before age 30 with excellent chances of promotion. Your graduate on the other hand should have gained valuable life skills and had more opportunities to prove or improve leadership and skills. The advice though was that the actual degree did not matter and a candidate would have better chosen a course with a view to a career outside the RAF lest they fail to be selected.

Other things you have not questioned are your fitness levels, medical fitness and your body build. Your legs may be too long; your arms too short; you may be outside the weight range. Can you swim, run etc etc.

[Wander00]

I think if I was his IOT Flt Cdr I would heve recommended his re-course by now!

[cazatou]

Alexrey

At your age I was on my second Squadron flying Senior Government Ministers on a tour of Caribbean Islands.

Well, somebody had to do it!!

[Melchett01]

Having had my curiosity piqued by all this discussion of residency requirements, without going into detail I had a quick look online.

Whilst the website states the need for a 3 year residency, the official line is that for higher clearances you will need to have been resident for at least 5 years and for some clearances 10 years. Furthermore, the security considerations of some of the more sensitive posts, for example FJ QWI or tactics posts, might well require an individual to be a UK National rather than just a British Citizen.

Whilst it is possible to come in under those limits, as the concepts of loyalty and trustworthyness are not necessarily linked to nationality - as politicians demonstrate on a regular basis - it is difficult to do so, especially if an individual is not from one of the '5 Eyes Nations' and this will likely add further time and hoops to be jumped through. Furthermore, if the selection boards think there may well be security clearance issues further down the line that might restrict an individual to being able to carry out only limited, basic duties, they might see it as a limiting factor in terms of employability and career progression and as such would likely look elsewhere for individuals that could be employed in the full range of rolls.

[cazatou]

Alexrey

Some of the language you use in your Posts will not endear you to those who oversee the Selection Process.

[Pontius Navigator]

As a matter of interest, I picked this up from another thread and it is germane to the recent discussions here.

The South African Air Force (SAAF) is hopeful that the pilots of its Gripen fighters will be granted significantly more flying hours during the financial year, which started on April 1.
SAAF director: force preparation Major-General Tsoku Khumalo indicated that the target was for 180 flying hours yearly, starting from 2012/13.
Speaking to South African journalists at Sweden's Ronneby Air Force Base (AFB) on Tuesday, he said the increase in flying hours was needed to maintain "currency in piloting your aircraft".
"You can't sacrifice the hours you need to maintain currency."
"It's our job to protect our sovereignty. We've got the capability, we've got the equipment and we've got the people," he affirmed, adding that a key target would be to deal with the Somali piracy threat off Africa’s east coast.
SAAF Gripens have already carried out antipiracy reconnaissance missions. The fighters can fly from their base, AFB Makhado, to the middle of the Mozambique channel and back, without having to refuel.
More generally, the SAAF wants to increase the number of youngsters it trains as pilots, for all "lines" (in air force jargon – fighter, transport and helicopter), every year. As some of the Gripen's systems are still undergoing operational test and evaluation, the number of pilots converted on to the new fighter will remain limited until this process is completed.

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

If you are any good, good enough for the RAF, then you would be ideally placed to help upskill the SAAF.

Pontius, I think that, between the lines, Alexray is hinting that he didn't feel he had a future in the SAAF. I would sympathise with him. The government in South Africa today, behind the scenes, would like nothing more than to remove any faces from positions of importance and power that it doesn't see as fitting it's ethnic profile. Such positions usually go to friends, relatives of those holding the reigns of power, and to those whose political party-affiliations are liable to favour the 'ruling class'. Ability to do the job effectively is not a high requirement.

Just to the north of SA, one only has to look at Zimbabwe to see what disasters that sort of thinking generated.

[cazatou]

I don't think that Alexray ever understood that it was not a question of "signing on the dotted line" at OASC - rather that it would be an in-depth assessment of suitability for Aircrew training and suitability to be awarded a Commission.

[Amymil]

Thanks for all the info in this thread, took some time to get through but in there some really good stuff! Off to Cranwell next month for oasc very excited :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Amy, looking for ATC or Fighter Control?

[Mozza424]

Could anyone cast more light on the current age limit for Joining as a pilot.

I'm currently serving as an airman.

[OneFifty]

Mozza,

Before your 26th birthday.

[muppetofthenorth]

Fighter Control hasn't existed for a number of years, PN!

[Amymil]

ATC,

Fighter Control is now Airspace Battle Mgt that looks ridiculously hardcore!!

[OneFifty]

OSB(ATC) and ABM are soon to be one in the same. Might be worth looking into that in case you get to OASC part 2!

[pr00ne]

OneFifty,

"OSB(ATC) and ABM are soon to be one in the same."

Won't that be a tad confusing? One half of the branch task will be to keep aircraft apart, while the other half will be doing precisely the opposite. Training will be fun...

[Amymil]

I did hear rumours that it has been considered (joining the two) but that was as far as it had got.

It is oasc phase 2 next month.:eek:

[Pontius Navigator]

Muppet/150, I know that, but even people serving still think of them by their original titles. To the uninitated OSB and ABM are just TLAs. Admittedly an applicant will have research both trades and be well versed in the differences.

[teeteringhead]

Canada have combined the branches (ATC & FC) for many years. It's only the initial training which is common, then people rarely move from one specialisation to another .....

...... rather like aircrew!

[Wander00]

Cazatou - probably depends on how may legs they have - but French court or UK?

[BPJ36]

Hi all,
I'm fairly new to this so please excuse me if I make any obvious mistakes.
I'm aware that you may have had quite a few people in my situation contacting you on this matter so I'll try and keep it to the point as much as I can.
I wish to become a pilot in the RAF (there's always one! ;)) I'm currently on the verge of finishing my A-levels in Geography, Film Studies and Systems and Control (design technology) predicted grades are BBB, hopefully looking at ABB. I have a B in maths at GCSE and in English, A's in Electronics and Additional Science at GCSE and a B in Science at GCSE level. I'm not planning on going to university as I didn't take Physics or Maths at A-level, and imp really not sure how I would get on at university. I have looked into UAS's but again, i'm just not sure about university. I have a part time job to provide at least some work experience, I've been in the air cadets, done GIC's and my bronze D of E then swapped to my local Army CCF, due to family problems. I stayed there for 5 years. I've been on visits to Brize Norton and Shawbury organised off my own back, and also I'm currently having a few basic flying lessons to boost my hours.
I'm hell-bent on getting in as a pilot or WSOp. I'm aware that the recruitment freeze in still in process but for how much longer. all I want is a date! I've tried to organise visits to Coningsby and Valley, but both said that I would need an interview date at OASC after my initial interview at the AFCO.

Any help at all would be greatly appreciated.
Many Thanks.

[NDW]

BPJ36,

I was in a similar situation a few years back as I originally after school, I planned on joining direct as a WSOp. Unfortunately I had a few academic set backs. Once that was all done, I applied in September 2010.
Unfortunately I failed the AST by very few marks ( but marks are marks and I didn't make the cut) it would be an understatement to say that I was disappointed.

Now that they have increased the GCSE mathematics grade, I am tempted to apply as another trade and work my way up in 5-6 years.

However, I am still working on increasing my current GCSE grade to at least a B as I still want to apply as a DE WSOp.

I apologise that I have drifted of your original topic, but truthfully, it boils down to what you want more.
Do you want a commission or would you be happy with being a SNCO?

I have done exactly the same as you, I have visited a few RAF bases, all of my own back.

Most bases won't allow it due to operational requirements - which is totally understandable.

Best of luck in what you decide to do.

NDW.

[Pontius Navigator]

I've tried to organise visits to Coningsby and Valley, but both said that I would need an interview date at OASC after my initial interview at the AFCO.

This is basically just a filter process. The AFCO interview will filter out those with no academic potential and the OASC date will prove interest. That said, a nephew at age 15, was offered a weeks work experience with the RN. All he had to do was get himself to Gibraltar where he joined HMS Daring for the passange home.

So, if you don't ask you don't get.

[JaneLP]

Good luck, but if you're looking for quick answers with dates to a very complex question of politics and policy, you may be disappointed. I don't think you can really do any more than you are doing just now - shoot for your dreams, and don't accept a job doing anything else with the promise of a cross-over in branches later. It's certainly a possibility, and plenty of people have done it, but could take years and you might miss your opportunity due to other service commitments. You sound like you've got a few years yet before your time runs out - volunteer at big airshows? Join the RAF Reserves?

[BPJ36]

NDW,
Yes I can see where your coming from about applying as another trade and working your way up. I too have considered this, but as the pilot role is solely a commission then I believe that it would take quite a long time for me to achieve that in another role. If I really asked myself then I know that the answer would be a commission, but if the WSOp role did come up I'd jump at the chance to take it as from what I've seen it's a great job, and well that's my main reason for joining. Not the money, it's the job, environment/encouragement/mates that you get along the way. Best of luck to you to in your future goals, hard work and determination will get you there.

PN,
Thanks for the heads up, very true if you don't ask you don't get. I'll just have to be patient to visit the other bases!

BPJ

[BPJ36]

JaneLP
Could you give me any information on volunteering at the big airshows? This might be a good thing for me to do whilst the role opens up.
Many thanks once again for all your help!
BPJ

[Pontius Navigator]

BPJ,

Re-volunteering. First I guess you would need to be close to an airshow unless you can get accommodation. As far as the military air shows all the volunteers that I know would be air cadets. The advantage, from the air show organisers point of view, is that the air cadets are trained and vetted to some extent.

On your own you would be an unknown quantity.

The other air show way is to find some air show participants and see if they can use a volunteer - cleaning the aircraft for instance.

Have a look at Flypast magazine that should give you some clues.

[PBI]

Can anyone confirm the current form of the fitness test at OASC?

I'm hearing contradictions between treadmill run and the MSFT. Can anyone one shed any light?

[Tommmo]

It's on a treadmill.

[doodlekin101]

Hi,
At the moment i am 14 and looking to join the RAF as a pilot (yes another hopefull but this time more determined).I was wondering what the appropriate attire for your first AFCO meeting would be.casual or smart?.I understand the situation of RAF pilot recruitment at the moment and in the coming future but still remain hopeful as i hope to go to uni to study Aeronautical engineering (not a mickey mouse degree) which would mean that my application would at 21 so in 2019 or 2020.I am in the RAF CCF and have logged 1 hour 15 minutes in the grob tutur (with about 50 minutes of that being with me at the controls,as my instructor skipped most of the novice BS and sent us straight into loops and barrel rolls).

[Melchett01]

At 14 you still have a way to go. So if by 'first AFCO meeting' you mean just popping in to say hi and pick up pamphlets etc you can get away with pretty much anything. If I recall, I was mooching around in jeans and t-shirt when I happened to pop in on the spur of the moment for the various branch brochures all those years ago.

But anything other than that, then I'd forget the casual look and go for at least smart or semi-smart. Remember the military - and especially the training enviornment - is more formal than the rest of society and what is considered acceptable on a daily basis in civvie street won't necessarily cut it. So if you are talking about interviews, then a suit would be the safe option. Failing that, then jacket and tie or if in the summer smart trousers, shoes and shirt / jacket combo without the tie - known as Planters Rig in the Officers' Messes would probably be fine. If you make it to OASC, it's a suit all the way.

Oh and it doesn't need to be an expensive suit, just make sure it isn't too shiny and modern - opt for style over fashion. M+S is a good bet for relatively inexpensive and fairly traditional suits. Leave the ill-fitting shiny ones to the mobile phone salesmen.:ok:

PS - don't choose a degree on the basis of what you think the RAF would like you to do, choose one you will enjoy doing and think you will be successful in. That way, you will actually enjoy your time at university and get the most out of it. Unless you want to be an Engineering Officer (or Lawyer / Medic), the RAF couldn't give a monkey's what subject you study as long as you pass. As I said to my interviewer when he asked why I hadn't gone to Oxford or Cambridge with my grades, I told him I thought university was about developing as an individual as well as getting a degree and I didn't think I would do much developing sitting in a library for 3 years. He seemed fairly happy with that as a reason.

[NDW]

Melchett01 priceless advice there.

I remember when I went for my AST for WSOp, there was only two of us taking the test.

Me, I was wearing; Shirt (with creases) Tie (Windsor knot), trousers (with creases) and polished shoes. I felt confident and overall smart.

The other candidate turned up in muddy jeans and a green hoodie (I thought they were taking the biscuit at first, but it soon turned out they weren't)

Even though both of us didn't pass the test (which I an still shameful of to this day), I was told to reapply for the role after the six months had surpassed and after speaking to the other candidate they were asked not to. So, I don't know whether it was because of the scores or if it was on personal presentation - either way 'Dress smart'.

Best of luck with your venture

[ratty1]

I said to my interviewer when he asked why I hadn't gone to Oxford or Cambridge with my grades, I told him

"I only got two C's and B"


as my instructor skipped most of the novice BSQuite agree, who needs to learn the effects of controls and how to take off and land etc. Get straight into flying upside down the other stuff isn't important.

[Melchett01]

I only got two C's and B

Oh Ratty, Ratty , Ratty, my dear Ratty. When trying to be funny about someone else's educational qualifications, it does help if you don't make rudimentary grammatical errors in your post.

Note to all wannabes - please note Ratty's incorrect use of the possessive apostrophe. It's something that you should get to grips with if you don't want your coursework at Cranwell to come back covered in red pen.

[ratty1]

Oh Ratty, Ratty , Ratty, my dear Ratty. When trying to be funny about someone else's educational qualifications, it does help if you don't make rudimentary grammatical errors in your post.

Oh Melchett01, Melchett01, Melchett01, my dear Melchett01. When trying to be funny about someones else's rudimentary grammatical mistakes, it does help if you don't make rudimentary grammatical errors in your post.

Note to all wannabes - please note Melchett01's incorrect use of a double space after the second "ratty" and the comma. It's something that you should get to grips with if you don't want your coursework at Cranwell to come back covered in red pen.

[muppetofthenorth]

Further note to everyone. Sometimes pedantry's funny. Sometimes it's just chuffing annoying. Especially when it's from people who pertain to be those you look to for advice.
As for the coursework at Cranwell, don't fret, it's an absolute doddle.

[Pontius Navigator]

I'd forget the casual look and go for at least smart or semi-smart. Remember the military - and especially the training enviornment - is more formal than the rest of society and what is considered acceptable on a daily basis in civvie street won't necessarily cut it. So if you are talking about interviews, then a suit would be the safe option. Failing that, then jacket and tie or if in the summer smart trousers, shoes and shirt / jacket combo without the tie - known as Planters Rig in the Officers' Messes would probably be fine. If you make it to OASC, it's a suit all the way.

Spot on. Certainly at the AFCO stage and at your age you are not expected to have a suit etc. Smart casual should be clean, pressed, and properly worn. Button down collars should be buttoned down. Shoes clean and if laced properly tied. A tie should be properly knotted. The shirt should be inside the trousers which in turn should be round your waist not your bum.

If look at what I have said it is about how you are dressed not what you are dressed in. If you have shoulder length hair and designer stubble that is not a problem either provided it is clean and tidy. Again how and not what.

If you are accepted your flight sergeant will sort out the stubble and the station barber will sort out the hair :)

[NDW]

P_N,

Unfortunately some future candidates (hopefully me (again)) shouldn't have to worry about the hair problem as at the age of 20 with my horrific receding hairline, I've already cut it to number 1 length.

With long(ish) hair, I have a peak like count dracula and just look idiotic :}.

Off topic slightly ^.

[Failed_Scopie]

I think if I was his IOT Flt Cdr I would heve recommended his re-course by now!

I wish that my IOT Flt Cdr had been recoursed! He was this w:mad:r from the RAF Regiment who managed to impart in me a specific dislike of his Corps and a more general dislike of the Air Force. He was an out-and-out bully and the main reason why I left.

[archiedawe]

Hi, i'm 14 and looking to join some aspect of the forces, although still early stages, hopefully as a pilot in the RAF. But I was interested to find out whether the RAF still issue sidearms to pilots entering combat?

[frodo_monkey]

In a word, yes.

[Pontius Navigator]

and in another word, why?

BTW, I have always wondered why they issue side-arms. On the ground at home base yes, but lying in some desert, unless it is to shoot yourself, why?

Last time I heard of a pistol being uses was back in the 50s or 60s, in the jungle to attract the rescue party.

[archiedawe]

just out of interest really. Could it be used possibly for hunting animals/ survival?

[NDW]

Well if it had to be used in a survival situation I would have thought that it could be used for hunting.

[Pontius Navigator]

The only animal likely to come within range of a pistol will probably be dead. Of course it could be used to scare a polar bear except I don't believe they issue pistols in Canada which, AFAIK, is still friendly.

The only thing you will probably be able to hit with any accuracy is your buddy or yourself.

PS

You are unlikely to be in a survival situation on modern operations. You will either be rescued pdq or go into evasion mode. Hunting will be the last thing on your mind.

Personally I would have preferred a parang, machette, or a sterling SMG :)

[Exascot]

Congratulations Miss Wilson it is a good job you do not want to become a journalist.

A-level student Emily Wilson is on course for a high-flying career after she got the grades she needed to become an RAF helicopter pilot.

The 18-year-old, from Newcastle, who achieved an A* in biology and an A in chemistry and physics, has been accepted to study biology at the University of Edinburgh and will then head to Sandhurst for her military training.

Miss Wilson, who attended Central Newcastle High School, said she originally wanted to be a vet but had a change of mind during the year.

While studying for her exams, Miss Wilson has been busy passing tests that are necessary for her to fulfil her flying dreams.

She said: 'I originally got interested in flying through the cadets and it's definitely the excitement and the variety that drew me in.

'I will go to university first and then Sandhurst and by the time I'm 25 years old I could be flying an Apache and my family are really happy.'


Read more: A-Level Results Day 2012: A grades fall for first time in 21 years | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2188974/A-Level-Results-Day-2012-A-grades-fall-time-21-years.html#ixzz23iKDiq1W)

[Exmil]

OK, so it was a few years ago, but sidearms were issued for the Balkans conflict. As other posts say, we were expected to be picked up by CSAR fairly quickly - and they would be heavily armed. The most likely use was probably against dogs which might have been used to hunt downed aircrew. I for one was a little envious of our American colleagues who carried a proper weapon (Colt 45 auto) that could do some damage; they carried these on exercises in Alaska as well. To quote a briefing: "Just remember if you eject out here you are not top of the food chain." The best option is not to use it unless you really have to. The usual joke was that throwing your Walther at the enemy was more effective than trying to shoot them.

[everynowandthen]

Many, many apologies if this plea for help has been made (many) times before. My son got his GCSE results today & thank god, got the necessary in order to apply for the RAF as a Weapons Systems Operator.

From what he gathers, it's a good idea to get some work done on the Aptitude Tests before the real thing. I appreciate there are some on the RAF website but does anybody have any pointers as to where he can find a source of practise papers?

Any other handy hints as to how he should prepare himself would also be gratefully received.

Many thanks.

[Pontius Navigator]

AFAIK the aptitude tests are largely computer based and really you have it or you don't.

One has to ask though, why is he limiting himself tp WSOp unless he does not plan to take any A-levels?

As a straight GCSE man he will be in competition with a fair number of more academically qualified applicants. That said, a 1st class degree in underwater basket weaving or mathematics at Cambridge does not mean an automatic acceptance.

[NDW]

Firstly, congratulations to your son.

There are many books around that can supply practice tests for the AST (Airman Selection Test) that your son would have to take as the first stage of his application. It would be undertaken at your local AFCO.

Have a look on google/amazon for any books. There are a few by Richard McMunn (some I have purchased myself).

As many will also say, Aptitude is one of those things you either have or you don't.

In my case, I didn't pass for WSOp first time but I am patiently waiting for the next time it will open for Applications.

As I'm sure you're son is aware that WSOp isn't recruiting at the moment and it doesn't look like it for the foreseeable future.

Get him to keep his fitness up, keep up with current affairs/world news.

The very best of luck to him.

[Melchett01]

everynowandthen,

As PN suggested, aptitude tests are largely about innate skills, but that's not to say you can't hone what skills you already have. No doubt there are books out there dealing with aptitude testing and they might be useful in terms of general mental agility. From what I can remember all those years ago, coordination was probably the bit I found hardest.

If your son has a games console, that might help some on the coordination front - I'm sure there has been plenty of research done discussing how games consoles can improve hand-eye coordination. But that is just one part of the tests. Many people find the maths and capacity tests hard - I found them to be easier, but then I had just come from a numerate postgrad science degree.

Your son should improve his ability to deal with speed / distance / time calculations - they are a big part of not just the aptitudes, but the rest of the selection procedure. There are short cuts e.g. x mph = y minutes per mile and knowing those off by heart makes life easier. Also knowing some maths short cuts will make it easier to recognise right / wrong answers in multiple choice tests e.g. odd no. x even no. = even no, X per cent of Y is the same as Y per cent of X etc. And the ability to cope with remembering increasingly long strings of random numbers will be a handy skill to have.

But don't just focus on aptitides; personal qualities are vital and without them, scoring off the charts means nothing. A friend of mine now flies civvie airliners out of London City because although he was a natural pilot, he wasn't considered to have the right officer qualities. The same applies for NCO aircrew - almost more so. They will come in half way up the non-commissioned rank range and go straight into the WOs' & Sgts' Mess at 20/21 whilst many others have had to slog their way through 20 years to make it there; therefore they will be expected to live up to the standards of a SNCO from the outset rather than learning and growing into the rank.

[BIG MISTER]

Good Afternoon,

I've not posted on Pprune for a while now and the search engine hasnt been much help. So I was wondering if there were any RAF Aux people on here that could give me a PM (or Post) on life in the Raf Aux and the pro's and con's of joining ?

I'm from the Gatwick area and as I have a CT background so I'm interested in an INTEL post with 600 Sqn.

Many Thanks !

BIG MISTER
........Still Missing the Christmas 'Gatbash's'....Pls bring them back ! ! ! ! :}

[camelspyyder]

I don't mean to bring people down, but you guys should all stop waiting for WSOp to re-open.

1. The last round of Personal Training Plans issued to current WSOp trainees by 22 (Trg) Gp gave many of them an arrival date on the front line of 2018. These PTP are currently under review with the dates expected to move to the right...

2. There are no SENSOR vacancies because - All the flying posts on RJ, Sentry, Reaper, Shadow and Sentinel are full. It is also possible that Shadow and Sentinel wont survive beyond the end of the Afghan commitment (according to SDSR 2010)

3. There are no FIXED-WING (Truckie) vacancies because - Many of the crewman on RAF Merlins are now without a job and are transferring to C130 C17 etc.

4. There are no ROTARY vacancies because - The 50+ trainees referred to at point 1 are going to be blocking the pipeline for several years.


5. There are no NAVIGATOR vacancies either.


In summary - apply for Pilot. There is no other option for several years.

If you don't get RAF Pilot, why not try the RN or Army.

I say again - WSOp is shut TFN and you could go grey waiting.


CS:)

[Tommmo]

To further camelspyyder's post I have a friend who was in the WSOp trg pipeline and was offered either a 5 year hold before starting WSOp trg or rebranch to a ground trade. Funnily enough they took the rebranch.

So I can confirm he's not lying with the 2018 CR projection.

As for Pilot, the guys right at the back of the pipeline are looking at coming out of their OCU 2017-18, but due to the longer trg time it's looking like it shouldn't be too long before Pilot opens up again - within a year? That's my personal speculation, mind.

[everynowandthen]

Many thanks for your replies & also apologies for not saying thank you earlier. They've all been passed on.

He actually had intended to apply for Pilot but was under the impression that hell would freeze before that opened. He therefore is applying for WSOp with the intention of getting a few more academic qualifications from within the RAF & some experience, with a view to applying for Pilot at a later date. He was also (mistakenly it seems) under the impression that recruitment would be opening within a few months.

His alternative to all of the above would be ATC.

[ljm10]

How often do Pilot vacancies appear? Any time I search on the RAF website they are never on the 'available roles' list. Very vague one liner but in a nutshell how hard would it be to pass all tests, scenarios etc to a standard where you would get the opportunity to become a RAF pilot? I can find very little info on the application process of the role.

[camelspyyder]

Last year 170 trainee pilots were made redundant as were the last 5 courses of navigators. The surviving pilots are going through training now, so it's a fair bet pilot as a branch will open reasonably soon. WSOp, as I've already outlined, probably will not. I know there are Air Traffic Controllers training at Shawbury now so that could be a good route, either as direct-entrant SNCO or with a Commission. I also know ex- RAF aircrew students who are undergoing RN selection with a view to flying as rotary crewmen.

I know the prospects aren't great but you must explore every avenue if you want to fly.

In the RAF numbers of ABM, FC, Technicians, Linguists, IA's, Movers and Stewards all have flying roles and I'm sure the other Services probably have the same diversity. If it's not a piloting role you're after -consider other options - Flying is so much better than working for a living;)

CS

[ljm10]

Many thanks for the info CS, good insight into what has within the force recently. You dont know how many applicants have typically applied for any given pilot campaign in the past?

[muppetofthenorth]

Many thanks for the info CS, good insight into what has within the force recently. You dont know how many applicants have typically applied for any given pilot campaign in the past?

The old line used to be that for every person who made through to an operational seat as a pilot, 10,000 had visited an AFCO to enquire about the role.

Large pinch of salt needed with that, no doubt, but it's more than fair to say "extremely competitive".

[ljm10]

:) reality check needed then!

[Pontius Navigator]

MotN, I think is was possibly 10,000 in the AFCO with one thousand reaching OASC for 120 getting to IOT. There are also in-service applicants to consider.

[Tommmo]

CS, just to clarify one of your points, the remaining pilots in the pipeline have not all started training - they are currently filling courses until early 2014.

From there it's possible to guess that the first EFT course with 'new' pilots in will be middle of 2014, so they'll possibly be graduating IOT early 2014 with a middle 2013 IOT start.

That's why I think they'll start recruiting pilots soon. There are a lot of assumptions there though, that's if they continue EFT at the same pace once all the holding pilots are through plus I'd imagine they could probably fill a course or two with waiting bursars.

[muppetofthenorth]

MotN, I think is was possibly 10,000 in the AFCO with one thousand reaching OASC for 120 getting to IOT. There are also in-service applicants to consider

As I said, large pinch of salt needed as I believe the '10,000' also included people who wandered into the AFCO to pick up a leaflet never to think about it again.

[NDW]

I also know ex- RAF aircrew students who are undergoing RN selection with a view to flying as rotary crewmen.


CS,

Excuse my ignorance.
Are the ex. RAF Aircrewman going straight is a D.E. RN Aircrew or are they having to undergo the whole selection process from the start?.

Just out of curiousity to see whether the RN are now considering D.E. Aircrew.

Thanks.

[camelspyyder]

Honestly, I don't know the RN policy, but I do know a few people who got stalled in the RAF training pipelines and were offered the chance to swap over.

I believe rotary crewman training is possibly changing in future from disparate single-service courses to a one-fits-all tri-service affair. This may well change things from recruiting onwards.

CS

[airborne_artist]

The Dark Blue do not normally have direct-entry rearcrew - Aircrewman Training | Royal Navy (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/The-Fleet/Shore-Establishments/Aircrew-Training/Aircrewman-Training)

[NDW]

A_A & CS

Thanks for your replies.

I thought as much. It would be excellent if a similar route opened in the FAA. Even if it was just as a trial.

NDW

[Pontius Navigator]

Recruitment is tailored to meet a need. If internal recruitment is sufficient then there is no need to take the risks attached to external recruitment.

Remember, an internal applicant will already have been given basic training, acquired skills above the basic level and more importantly been observed and reported on before getting to selection. The outcome for an internal recruit is more assured than for an external applicant.

It is also one reason why it seems harder for an internal recruit to gain a commission or become aircrew.

[MAD Boom]

Pontius

It is also one reason why it seems harder for an internal recruit to gain a commission or become aircrew.

Excuse my ignorance; why would that be?

I only ask as it took me three applications from within the service before I eventually gained my commission.

[Pontius Navigator]

MAD, I think, and that is only my opinion from years of observation, is that direct entrants are assessed more for PQs and potential and are 'captured' as soon as possible if suitable. An internal applicant may not have appeared to have the same potential for a commission but once they have enlisted they too are effectively captured.

They can then be assessed at leisure and over time. Some will be encouraged to go for a commission, others will think they are suitable. In both cases they will be given some form of encouragement - good or bad - and there will be some element of 'if your face doesn't fit' bias. Those internal candidates will often have to pass a station board composed of officers that have not qualified with AFCO or OASC interview skills.
Also PQs and leadership skills may also mature over time thus improving your chances.

Why harder? Very simply because there will have been many more direct entrance candidates that have presented with excellent qualifications but been rejected because needs have been fulfilled. Whereas there will be far fewer internal candidates have several more hoops to jump through.

Maybe someone else can elucidate better than me.

[lj101]

Mad Boom


Flap 62

Any relation to Admin Guru? . .SNCO's rule the Air Force, like it or not it's a fact, and without us, you wouldn't have a clue how to go about your tiny existence.. .I cordially invite you to spend some time up here in the frozen north and see how far that attitude gets you before 300 AEOps place a fireaxe through your head!. .Will never want to be treated like an officer, would have to salute too much and write too many reports, just want the same pay as someone who flies on the same jet.

Man, did I just rise to the bait or what?. .T****r.

MADS


This is one of your posts (as I'm sure you will recognise), change of heart?

[MAD Boom]

Lj

Wow! I must have seriously p***ed you off at some point. You've really done your homework on me there!

We all change eventually. Maybe I was having a 'I hate officers day', who knows? In the end, if you can't beat 'em ........ However, as my IOT Flt Cdr said, once a knocker, always a knocker. Still graduated though.

[lj101]

Mad

No, not at all mate: I just laughed when i saw that post and your subsequent change of heart.


Well done ref commission and all the best :ok:

[Bluntnotsharp]

Branch sponsors will often allocate a certain number of spaces for those who commission from the ranks - which means the internal market is only competing with itself in many cases. The rest of the target for the year will be bursars and direct entrants etc.

[essexlad]

Whats the current state with NCO aircrew recruiting? As an SE FITT in the RAF can i use my completed city in guilds and key skills NVQ in lieu of my GCSE maths qualifications? And is it true that if your already 'in' that you stand a better chance compared to someone who is coming in from civvy street?

[Lushington]

Essex, being in the RAF you will be aware that there is a force development centre at your station. Why not pop along and speak to the training officer or whatever they call themselves these days rather than relying on out of date or inaccurate information from this chat forum.

[camelspyyder]

not happening soon, I fear.

we are just looking at course flows that would clear the current backlog of students through Cranwell by Q4 2014.


Try calling NCALT (NCA liaison team) at OASC Cranwell for up to date recruiting gen.

CS

[fly_surfbeach]

Hi all,

Firstly Merry Christmas to you and I wish you a happy new year 2013!

I am posting to enquire whether anyone is in the know when Pilot recruitment will be starting again for the RAF...? Few of us are on the edge of out sits whilst also holding down alternative career paths.

Thanks in advance for your returns.

Regards,

fly_surfbeach

[Eul0gy]

probably as they are opening a direct entry UAV pilot branch from apr 13

[NDW]

In regards to the new UAV Pilot trade opening, isn't the UAV role flown by WSOp's?

I've seen a few piccy's someone & i'll try and dig them out of a UAV pilot at the rank of Flt Sgt.

[ChristianR354]

Reaper has a mission crew of two. A Pilot and a Sensor operator. Like you I've seen pictures of WSOp's operating the Reaper UAV but I'm not sure if the WSOp Pilots the aircraft or if this is done only by a Two-winged (brevet) Pilot/WSO.

This is something I've wondered as well?

[DSAT Man]

Flysurfbeach, there will be some pilot IOT entries in FY13/14 but they will be taken up by university bursars who have been waiting their turn. I would get something temporary for a year or two if I were you.

[fly_surfbeach]

DSAT Man Many Thanks for your response- Currently have a very good job in the aerospace engineering world, but would like to move on!

I'm currently also in the process of applying to the Army lookingpotentially at Air Corps however unfortunately the AAC do not sponsor :-(

Anyone any knowledge of the truth of an officers career in the AAC becausepersonally I'd like to keep flying if I'm successful in getting there in thefirst place :-/

Kind Regards,

fly_surfbeach

[Melchett01]

Anyone any knowledge of the truth of an officers career in the AAC because personally I'd like to keep flying if I'm successful in getting there in thefirst place :-/

Having recently finished a tour in JHC HQ, you couldn't move without bumping into a grumpy AAC officer pilot staring longingly out of the windows as yet another AH or Bell flew over on the way back to Middle Wallop. If you want to fly and do nothing but fly, your options are RAF as a pilot or AAC as an NCO pilot.

If you commission into the AAC as a pilot (beware, they now commission as ground branch officers too), you might do 2-3 tours as a pilot whilst you're a junior officer, but once you hit senior captain it's pretty much staff jobs from then on to make you promotable in the first instance. You might get lucky and get command of an independent flt as a captain or a sqn as a major or if very lucky a regt as a lt col, but your only option, depending on how numbers etc pan out, could be to decide to step off the treadmill and stay as a captain - but even then flying jobs are not guaranteed.

[fly_surfbeach]

Melchett01- Many Thanks for the reply, useful information.

KRgds,

Fly_surfbeach