TAA and the DC-9

[teresa green]

Sixtiesrelic, I knew that there were a few that batted for both sides, but have to say most of the TN boys in New Guinea were skirt chasers. You are correct to say that most of us also at one stage or another fell into those bloody drains after a night at the old QF mess, but I think Blackman spent more time in them than most of us. (How else would you find a horse at 0300)?:confused:

[Dog One]

Did TAA fit low pressure tyres to the 9 so that it could operate into WA ports against the MMA F28's, or did they just reduce the tyre pressures and take off weight?

[Stationair8]

Did the TAA DC-9 actually get painted into the Australian Airlines colour scheme?

[Mr.Buzzy]

Did the TAA DC-9 actually get painted into the Australian Airlines colour scheme?

Hi Stationair8,
727, A300 and 737 were painted in Australian Airlines colours.
DC9 didn't get to see the blue, green and gold!

bbbzzzzzzzz

[Givelda]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3489/3242957043_b65625786f_m.jpg

Probably an easy one - but given the small size of the pic, can you guess where? My lack of camera skills makes the view outside look a bit blurry - although I seem to remember a number of first legs in the morning were that way anyway!!!

[Grivation]

Proserpine?! What's the old TN story 'bout the refueller's dog gettin shot up there.....

[zlin77]

Finals on RWY 15 Rocky?

[D.Lamination]

:ok:
Zlin 77 Rocky is right - nice approach 120kts V/S -700

VAN 3 (?) DME counting down, Nice Collins FD108 ADI. Great big stall light not on!:}

Thanks E-W Loco for the rego info. After the F27's were retired some of the TF rego's went to Tillair in the NT - mainly on Cessna Conquests (TFG,TFB)

[Givelda]

Yeah!
Hard to believe I took that pic 22 years ago. And the -9 is still my all time favourite....... I can remember departing Mackay/Rocky on some early winters morning in the fog .... after lining up and counting and reporting to the tower that we could see the required number of runway lights .... and leveling off just on top of the fog top, accelerating in almost absolute silence and tucking the slats and flaps away on the way to 300 kts or thereabouts before pulling up into the rising sun for the climb.........
or managing to pull of a greaser from a Flap 50 landing.... etc.etc

[sixtiesrelic]

I don't think anyone addressed that question about three crew in the nine.
TAA had three for a very short time when the kerfuffle about flight engineers was on, while AnsettANA blokes went on strike if my memory serves.
I was young then and nowhere old enough to be in great big planes, but I remember being told by one of the cramped blokes who reckoned three was too many.
That was in the days when they rotated to 22 degrees ANU and couldn't see over the nose.

[Centaurus]

tucking the slats and flaps away on the way to 300 kts or thereabouts

A bird strike into the windscreen at 300 knots will probably kill you. Safer to stick to 250 below 10,000 where the windscreen is more or less guaranteed.

[Wiley]

My God, Centaurus, were you an old style DCA Gruppeninspektor in a previous life? Talk about a wet, smelly three day old fish in our collective face...

I doubt there'd be many here who'd find your post "in the spirit" of this excellent, nostalgic thread of a time before political correctness had even been invented.

------------------

One of the results of the DC9 being allowed to operate with two crew in Oz were the (I thought then and still think) wonderful Route Data Cards issued to DC9 crews in both companies.

They (DCA) thought the -9 was far too slick for a two man crew to be pulling out enroute charts to search for tracks and navaid frequencies, (and on my first few CB-SY sectors, I think I would have agreed with them!!!). So they made the RDCs mandatory for the -9 - and the 727 and F27 crews were very happy to use them as well!

----------------

One of my many fond memories of the -9 was taking off out of Canberra one evening bound for Adelaide. We got airborne about ten minutes after sunset - and the aircraft's rate of climb was such that we managed to achieve a complete "sunrise" in the West, with the sun getting wholly above the horizon (and quite a bit clear of it) by the time we reached TOPC.

Both of us were absolutely gobsmacked. (As I recall, neither of us had ever seen this before that day.) We called the FAs (sorry, hosties) up to show them this absolute wonder, and they couldn't see what we were on about - totally unimpressed. They had far more important things on their minds, like serving 90 punters their meals.

[Givelda]

There was no requirement of 250 below 10000 in those days and no TAA or Ansett DC-9 to my knowledge had a windscreen taken out by a bird. However at about that time , I recall tragically, there was an F-111 that was and of course recent events have proved how aircraft and birds don't mix. To be honest, I thought the 250 below 10000 was imported from the US as an ATC measure to process traffic. Never thought of it in bird impact terms - you never stop learning in this game. Of course no sensible bird would have been up flying in the fog...... and in those days "poltically correct risk assesment" was in the future...

[maui]

Givelda

I believe you are correct. 250 below 10 is an ATC issue.

I seem to remember the 9 had a 5 layer windscreen, with 2 viynl layers, additionaly it was heated. Which in all gave it plenty of strength to withstand the "Frozen Chook Gun".

Likewise I do not recall TAA or Ansett ever having a problem in respect of windscreens and bird penetration.

If windscreen integrity was an issue it there would have been a Flight Manual limitation on the speed. There wasn't.

I agree with Wiley. I think Centaurus has some serious social issues.:8

Maui

[Fantome]

I think Centaurus has some serious social issues.




and I think you should be more specific or curb your tongue.


There was an AN DC9 C, Frizel?, based BNE round 1970. He went on local ABC radio one morning after doing SYD return and got all lyrical about the joys of the job. Could be in the archives. What was the TN at Mackay that lined up with highway lights and went round late?

[sixtiesrelic]

Cripes Centaurus, we're talkin' about the glories of the olden days mate!
We got away with it!
Never saw a high flyin' bird in some parts of the country yet knew about 'em in others and was wary.
Spotted a pelican at ten grand while heading out of Mt Isa for example. Boy did he get a fright when a dirty great roaring predator was comin' to get him.
He did what they all do in the last ditched emergency... folded his wings and dived.

On leaving the cockpit at the end of a flight from Melbourne many years ago, I had some puffed up highly important 100 hour Private Pilot admonish me for "dangerous flying" when I did the old 210 to 320 knot acceleration just above the seven thousand foot Strato-Cu. plain I'd descended through forty five minutes earlier.
I asked why it was dangerous.
"Another aircraft might have come out of the cloud and hit us".
My old man could give some really withering looks when he wanted to let one know they were talking cr*p.
I pretended I was him, and rudely told "the expert" to check out controlled airspace, clearances and separation.
Mug still thought HE was right, but I never had to stand before the SRC's desk and explain, so at least he didn't complain.
I could never believe the public. Occasionally while deadheading you'd see the boys do the scream "across the top" and feel the thrill of the speed. On looking around to see if others were enraptured, I was flabbergasted to see no one lookin'.
Bugger them I'd jam my nose back to the window pane waiting to see the mighty zoom away.

[Dog One]

I think most jets have a Vmo of around 300 KIAS below 10'000. We are normally limited by the STARS to 250 KIAS.

[cficare]

As a young fella (long time ago) I was lucky enough to get a jump seat ride on the midnight freighter out of Essendon to Launceston and back. Climbing out of Melbourne the window heater on the captains side shorted out. The MEL requirement was to limit speed to 250kts above and below 10000ft and the aircraft was out of action once returned to the nearest maintenance port until the fault was cleared

[Dog One]

Reminds me of the time I was in LT and chatting to one of the old Airlines of Tasmania pilots. He was telling me that the heated windscreen in their Mojave had failed and all the air ambulance pilots had been given a rocket by their Manager for daring to use it. Didn't they understand that windscreens overheat! He also told them that he was working through the incident and believed some one had left the windscreen heat on ovenight. The culprit when found out was to be sacked immediately!!

[Bullethead]

The 250 below 10k restiction in the USA was originally brought in as a ATC measure in the early days of jet transports and the vast speed difference between them and the older piston powered airliners.

Initially proposed, in 1957, was a 160kt limit in the terminal area then 250 kt below 14,500' both of which the airlines argued would be too comercially prohibitive so 250kt below 10k was the eventual result.

Nothing to do with birds at the time. I've got a reference if anyone is interested, it's about two pages worth.

Regards,
BH.

[Fantome]

Pardon the digression. . . .

been given a rocket by their Manager for daring to use it.

Same drongo who would not get off the air once he found someone else to yabber to. One time he was going on and on and when he finally unkeyed his mic up came the irrepressible Nige with 'Change hands Dallas. Change hands.'

[Dark Knight]

We are talking about real men flying real aircraft knowing their and their aircraft limitations.

I think most jets have a Vmo of around 300 KIAS below 10'000No!

VMO?MMO is VMO/MMO at all altitudes.

Out of many places, break out on top, accelerate to 320kts plus and climb; delightfully exhilarating!

250kts below 10,000, as indicated, eventuated in the US of A (and the initial SID?STARS did not have 250kts speed restriction)arriving here about the same time as political correctness, metrosexuals and `Girlie Man' aviation.

When the occasion arose, 320kts plus was optimism operating performance, saved the company time and fuel too!

In another of those delightful aircraft of the time (B727) out of Canberra, late at night cleared direct to the Sydney NDB, right turn at 500' agl accelerating to 380Kts within 15 nm, 380kt climb, cruise and descnt to 15 DME, land R/w 07; 17 minutes roll to stop.

Delightful aircraft, carefree days and great crews.

DK

[Capt Claret]

The venerable 146 has an AFM limitation of 250 kias < A080. If I recall the MoM correctly, it actually states that the restriction is for bird strike reasons.

The 717, a DC-9 on steroids, has no such limitation and a VMO of 340.

[sixtiesrelic]

146!!!
Claret! we're talking about aeroplanes here.

[Bullethead]

I think that after the 250kts below 10k rule came in some aircraft constructors saw this as an avenue to use it as a 'birdstrike' prevention measure and design their aircraft accordingly.

Regards,
BH.

[Dog One]

Dark Knight

Sorry, I was quoting the speeds from my bucket of bolts, which are 300 KIAS to 10,000', then 320 above. Needs more thrust to get up with the big iron.

[Capt Claret]

sixtiesrelic

I know. I was going to put a :yuk: after "venerable" but decided that at the end of the day, it did do what it did, fairly well, if more complicated than needed!

[teresa green]

Dogone, always reduced tyre pressure in DRW if going on to Port Hedland on the 9.

[Wiley]

Ahhhh sixtiesrelic.... thank you for reminding me of the utter joy of skimmimg along just feet above the top of smooooth stratocu, best done into and out of Melbourne - (the city that should have been built on 4000' stilts).

Nothing's quite like breaking out of the Melbourne winter gloom into sparkling clear air and oh so BLUE skies - then clicking the AP out and holding her down just above the cloud until you almost reached red line. It wasn't just in the -9 you could play that game, but it's a memory I have from my -9 days.

[Chief galah]

They used to talk about descent profiles, fuel saving and all that jazz, but it was a different era, prior to computer input and monitoring.

My ATC course included a two week airline attachment. One flight on a 727(100) from ML to AD, the FO was flying and for whatever reason decided to have the VSI at +6000'/min and ASI 350+ on descent into AD.

It seemed to be a pilot preferred option as to how this was achieved. It may have seen to be reckless, but those chaps really had options how they handled the aircraft. No STARS, close bases, and no FMS or whatever.

For good or bad, those days have gone, but boy it was fun!

Thanks for the memories.

[Al E. Vator]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/87791108@N00/2538566616/

http://flickr.com/photos/87791108@N00/2533099391

http://flickr.com/photos/39967544@N00/2044704753

[Capt Fathom]

I never realised the track from Mackay to Townsville went via the channel at Brampton Island! :E

PS Nice post Al E. Vator! How'd you do that?

[Al E. Vator]

Great skill & dexterity - didn't work on my computer when I reviewed it - not one of my better efforts!

[Lodown]

In my first company of employment as a charter pilot, I had the pleasure of flying a captain into Brissy to fly one of the last Ansett DC-9's out. I parked on the Ansett apron at the old Brisbane aerodrome and we walked from the Cherokee to the DC-9 and up the back ramp, down the aisle to the cockpit. Security was of no concern. I sat in the left seat and it was a big deal to an impressionable kid. The captain was reminiscent that it was the end of the last pilots' aircraft, the importance of which was lost on me in my youthful exuberance.

Looking back from a rapidly advancing age of automation and deskilling, aircraft flown almost exclusively on autopilot, air traffic control practices that put aircraft on rails in the sky and an ever widening gulf between the experiences of general aviation and the application to large airline operations, the DC-9 (and the F-27) represented all the reasons I chose flying for a career. It's a different kid that takes up flying for a career these days.

Time to listen to Joni Mitchell's "Both Sides, Now".

We're losing something from aviation with all the automation and regulations. It's like eating fast food at a plastic dining table. It's just not the same as the individuality expressed in a home cooked meal and a wooden table. Too late to reverse the trend, even if we wanted to, but it's nice to reminisce.

[sixtiesrelic]

Lodown... can I use THAT when talking to the modern generation. You've got it in a nutshell.
We flew 'em then ... they monitor the systems now.

[Animalclub]

sixtiesrelic

TAA had three for a very short time when the kerfuffle about flight engineers was on, while AnsettANA blokes went on strike if my memory serves.
I was young then and nowhere old enough to be in great big planes, but I remember being told by one of the cramped blokes who reckoned three was too many.

I'm pretty sure it was the other way 'round. Ansett flew with the flight engineer for a short time and TAA didn't fly at all for a few days. When the flight engineer was strapped in he couldn't reach the pedals... that's the story that ran around El Toro caga (or pek pek bilong bullamacau) Towers in Franklin Street!

[teresa green]

Lodown, those manuals taste like crap, regardless at what sort of table you are sitting at! Thank God I flew when you didn't need a manual to tell you how to take a p#ss, when F/Os didnt bring their muesli with them, or ring their personal trainer on arrival, when we loved nothing more than the sound of axel engines, when we didn't give a sh#t how much black crap we left behind us, when we put the throttles hard forward and left them there, when we didn't freak out when the clacker went off, (she was built to last), when you could have a laugh with the hosties (sorry flt attendants) and tell some jokes without being a sexual pervert, when little kids could come up to the flight deck, and they could sit on your knee and look out the window for Santa, without you being accused of being a molester, when you could have a crew party in the Capt's room and have a drink and a good time without fearing that some warped mind didn't accuse you of "taking advantage of me" (in a room full of people)???? as happened to a still flying mate not long ago, and the aircraft were cranky buggers, but a delight to fly, and never to be trusted, and us old blokes learnt our trade from tough hard Captains, many who were bomber command pilots (and survived) who were sometimes frightening to a young bloke, as some had war (mental) problems, especially those that had been POWs, but could they fly, and they were hard as nails on you, but later on always bought you a beer, I would not swap a minute of it for todays flying, as much as I admire the new technology, I am happy to pass it on to the next generation of pilots, and so on, and when I go to that bar in the sky, I hope to God there is a 9 parked outside, because I have flown 40 types according to my logs, but she is my favourite. Amen.

[tasdevil.f27]

someone should write a book with all these stories.:ok:

[Stationair8]

First officers with personal trainers, gees the bloke must be a metrosexua! Next he telling you what moisturiser he uses!

I thought that's why you had Flight Attendants, to fill in time on the layovers.

Just think Teresa Green you flew the DC-9, you drove a Ford or Holden to work probably a V8, no mobile phone, no group hugs, the skipper was the boss, no DVD's, no Plasma, sex was safe and one day you would move onto the B727.

[Sand dune Sam]

Another great thread...a book needs to be written on these kind of subjects. How about you guys, teresa green et al get together and do it? There would be allot of guys around who would of loved to have flown in the Golden era of jets in Australia. To have a book dedicated to it written by the guys that flew them would be fantastic:ok:

[Aye Ess]

Excellent idea about a book. Any author interested would have an endless supply of fascinating stories &,no doubt,hundreds of photos. All the contributers have the time & enthusiasm to recall the golden age of airliners in Australia.

[Teal]

.. thank you for reminding me of the utter joy of skimmimg along just feet above the top of smooooth stratocu, best done into and out of MelbourneWiley - thanks for reminding ME of my two-week airline attachment to Ansett during ATC training. My most memorable moment was of a Strathbogie departure out of Melbourne on a DC-9. As we climbed out of the cloud into the blue sky the captain (Tony Lake if memory serves) turned his head to me in the jump seat, gave me a wink, said "watch this", as he gently pushed the column forward and commenced to skim the clouds for about 30 seconds. As a then 20-year old who had never flown in jets, it was the most thrilling experience imaginable, and I've never forgotten that moment, nor the pilot who did it.

[teresa green]

Stationair8, I think I drove a beat up old EK holden station wagon for a airport car, the only people who had AIDS were Generals, I never bothered to lock the house up at night, my kids got thumped if they were rude or ill mannered, the dog didn't have to spend her life on a lead, and the F/O was more likely to eat a hot dog for breakfast than muesli, and was too busy chasing women to bother with a personal trainer, and yes I did go on the 727 (a lovely aircraft, but not the 9) but nice having a F/E to tell you during the night how to fix the toaster/car/boat/whatever, a good and fullfilling life until the dreaded (dare I say it) 89, (forget I said that) we won't damage a great topic and so many great postings. Anybody who feels like writing the story, a good place to start would be the TAA/AN gathering in New Farm BNE this OCT, from there you will get stories from Pilots, Traffic Officers (remember them)? Flight Attendants, Engineers, Load Masters etc, there are some great early videos especially out of New Guinea, will post date when known.

[Knumb Knuts]

Yeah. The good old days. Take off on 27 ML. Into the cloud. Get the FE to open the cockpit door while accelerating to 350 Kts. (yeah - a REAL jet). Roll into the turn to SBG. Burst out of the flat cloud tops with 4000 FPM plus around 4000' into the brilliant rising sunlight with 30 degrees or so bank (Heh heh)!. Roll back to HDG and get FE to close the door. Sigh. Yeah.

[teresa green]

Wiley, one of my most memorable flights was in New Guinea, on a Twotter, single pilot ops, taking six police boys to Buna, when the peace was shattered by a exploding head door, followed by a police boy flat on his back who came straight up the aisle and stopped at my feet. He was in severe pain, and was passing out every so often, he couldn't talk, so all I could think was snake. Not the first time they had got on the aircraft, so I told the other boys who were quite frightened not to go near the head, and called for assistance on landing, and then the ground engineer and I (holding axe) carefully went into the head, nothing, so wondered if the thing had gone down the bowl, but no sign, so had a good look around but could see nothing, then I saw the battery lid was open on one side and it was wet, and realised the poor bugger had taken a p#ss it had gone onto the battery, and he got a charge straight up the ol$ fell@, well it made the eyes water on both the engineer and me, and we decided a beer was in order. I went and checked on him at the bush hospital, and that was exactly what happened. Was always careful to check the twotters battery cover after that.

[B772]

Bob Binning former QF cabin crew and ex Ansett F27/Dc9/B727 Captain authored a book called "What a way to fly" in 1987. I can recall one story in the book when Bob operated a Dc9 HBA-MEL Casino Charter arriving in MEL in the early hours of the morning. The passengers were in a jovial mood and Bob and crew dressed in Lounge Suits deplaned from the a/c with bottles of Champagne much to the surprise of ground crew meeting the a/c.

[sixtiesrelic]

Treesa and others... 17th October.
[email protected] gets you the announcement.
THIS year we need to see more Ansett deros. Let 'em know about it if you know any.
There's chicks who used to wear the green miniskirt, whipping themselves up into plannin' a trip to Brissy for it.
They're the greatest get togethers because it's similar people from a small timespan.

[teresa green]

Thanks sixties, the last one was a beauty, but just a note, if from out of town, book a hotel close by, as we waited for one and a half hours for a cab and finally got one at 0100, or take a car and have a non drinker driver (good luck on that one!!) Book in soon as Jan Hutton says its filling up very quickly. Still a few bomber command pilots around including Peter Kausman, who is coming from TSV, so some interesting people to talk to. So if your old man flew in the 60s to the end of the 80s, he will have a rollocking good time, let him know.

[sixtiesrelic]

Treesa. He's dead.
Flew there before the war.
Joined TAA in 1946 and was Very very very senior.
I've been to both reunions.

[Stationair8]

Likewise seated in the last row of the DC-9, going into Melbourne on a summers morning and skimming along the top of the cloud and then a gentle turn to the left, and out to the right a B727 climbing out of 34.

[emeritus]

I have fond memories of the 9. I was in the first batch of f/o's in AN to be endorsed. The Capts were sent over to Air Canada to do simulator and then go to Long Beach for the endorsement.

Us f/o's were to be endorsed at Tullamarine using 09/27 which was scheduled to be completed and available for training but regrettably due to industrial action was subsequently not ready. The Company therefore had no option but to send us over to Long Beach as well. All this took place before the first two a/c arrived in Oz.

Some of us were endorsed by company check capts and some by Douglas pilots. I was fortunate to be with one of the DACO pilots. Dan was very laid back..he flew the 9 like he drove his Beetle. He was frequently heard to remark that we were going to" wear the a/c out checking everything'.

The endorsement was done flying out of LGB to Bakersfield for letdowns and Mojave for circuit work. I still have very fond memories of flying across the Mojave desert at 500 ft at clacker minus 1! Also the traffic around the LA area was very heavy and one very quickly got the head out of the cockpit as we weaved our way over and under traffic both civil and military. The 29 twin locator at LGB used to almost take you through the circuit area of a very busy Marines air base. On one occasion at around 1500 agl I was loking out the window and suddenly 3 phantoms flew beneath us!!

Regarding the 2/3 crew dispute it was as I remember AFAP policy to have 3 crew on jet a/c. It was agreed that during the introduction that there would be a survey done using 3 crew..3 pilots or 2 pilots n an f/e.

DCA had cerified it for 2 crew and as such would only allow the 3rd member to read the normal checklist and start the APU on the ground. Nearly all of us realised there were no problems operating 2 crew.After the Viscount it was a breeze..loved the cockpit lighting at night.

Eventually as more and more crews were checked out and there were not so many pilots doing supernumery and therefore automatically fulfilling the 3 crew req, the AFAP decreed that after a certain date the a/c was not to be crewed by 2 pilots only.

TAA began to roster 2 crew and the pilots refused to operate in defiance of an AFAP directive and so their 9,s were grounded. We at AN had a meeting of the 9 crews and agreed that we also were not going to defy the directive. A deputation went to see "RM' and asked that the Co continue to roster 3 crew so that we would have time to work within the AFAP to try and have the policy changed.

Subsequently it developed into a standoff. AN I think would have been happy to continue ad infinitem. Eventually the AFAP withdrew the Directive and the rest is history.

I remember one morning arriving in AD on the first flt from SYD on that day and having the Senior come into the office after the pax had disembarked and advising there was a bad smell in the forward entry area. Sure enough it smelt like something had died. It wasn't the catering!! it had all been eaten. The engineers were called and eventually found the remains of a cat that had been caught up in the retract mechanism ( chains n cogs from memory) and well and truly mangled.

Seems that the previous night said moggy from the Hangar area in SYD must have decided that the stairwell was a nice warm place for a nap and some one came along and retracted the stairs. Happened twice to me..the second time the Senior came into the office and reported a bad smell. I can still see the look on her face when I casually informed her it was probably a dead cat and I would get the Engineers to remove said cat.

Anyone else out there have a similar experience?

EMERITUS

[sixtiesrelic]

Good onya Emeritus. It's great to hear from those that were there for our history.
Many who only heard stories get 'em wrong.
I'm lucky that I know one of the old blokes from the prewar New Guinea aviation scene, who I can ask about things we read about now. Best thing is he has all his marbles and remembers. Can't always rake up names on the spot but remembers 'em later and writes em down.

[teresa green]

Sixtiesrelic, I spoke to Peter Kausman this morning and he is very interested in the fact that he is dead. He might feel like it, as he has spent the last couple of nights keeping the flood waters out of his house north of TSV, and he very annoyed as trucks keep going past and causing a bow wave in his yard, and even more annoyed that a family of ducks have set up home on top of his 4 month old Audi sedan. He said to pass on to you that the Germans spent four years trying to kill him, and he was one of the very few who completed two sorties, that TAA tried to kill him sending him out to the bush on VH MIN (he hates the bush, only loves the ocean) for three long years, and that every hoon in TSV has tried to run him of the road, but he continues to breath. He also asked if you could possibly be one of the hapless F/Os that was on the receiving end of a well aimed manual when he was tired and fed up, if so he is sorry, (you could do that in those days, now the Union, Slater and Gordon, and numerous councillers would be called in) and probably rightly so, and lastly he said that he has no intentions of dying until he has worked his way thru every last bottle of red in his collection, and he has every intention of being at the bash at New Farm in Oct. So before all the stories come out about flying with Pete, you better put a hold on em.:O

[Stationair8]

Whinging old pensioner, whinges if it rains, next he will want a KRudd Cash top up!!!!

Obviuos the old bloke ain't seen a modern aircraft manual's and associated company manuals including how to pea correctly and at what time, no wonder the Amazon is disappearing!

[A. Le Rhone]

Hope you've enjoyed the video postings so far.

To recap, from You Tube we've managed to drag up the First Up Up and Away ad and the ABC TV Promo (really a TAA ad) with the allegedly good-looking Australians:

Now some kind soul has provided a later Up Up and Away Version:

_om3JLK_Zd0

[sixtiesrelic]

Teresa. I wasn't talking about Pete.
I was talking about my old man who Pete might have known as 'the abominable NOman" and I described above.
I never flew with Pete although I did spend six months in the Blue team with the more junior blokes in "the toy department", before getting the dream job in PNG with another crowd.

[teresa green]

Amazing bloke Peter, he nearly bought it over Berlin when a piece of flak came up thru the fuselage, between the pilots, hitting the roof and then falling back on him. (he has still got it and it is very heavy metal weighing about 3 kilos). It knocked him out for about 10mins whilst the Lanc was in the spotlights, but somehow they got thru. How he survived 2 sorties is amazing as most pilots and crew only lasted about 18 raids but he lasted 60 and of course went on to fly for TAA until retirement at 60. He is renouned for his toughness, and his total dislike of management, and one of the best stories (and true) is his great love of fishing, and living near SYD airport he spent many happy hours in Botany Bay fishing away, and then not able to possibly eat all he caught, he took the catch up to the Brighten Le Sands Hotel dressed in shorts, singlet and thongs and flogged the catch. Unfortunately the same hotel was the haunt of Airline management, and you can imagine the amazement of Ball and John Hickey who were lunching there to see one of their senior Captains flogging fish. As you can imagine he was invited in for tea and bikkies and ten minutes later they were left in no doubt after Peter told them he would do what he freccin well liked when not in uniform, and they could stick their airline up their ar#e, and of course Peter won, as he was a excellent senior Captain serving TAA in New Guinea, on the 3s then on to the Fockers, the 9 (which he loved) and finally retired on the Airbus, (and he still happily flogged his fish) and management decided to leave well alone. They don't make em like Peter anymore.

[ACMS]

This thread really is magnificent, thanks Teresa and others for making my day.

Would someone please put this into a new book?

Cheers and keep all the good stories coming.:ok:

[Fantome]

teresa green
. . . then the ground engineer and I (holding axe) carefully went into the head, nothing, so wondered if the thing had gone down the bowl, but no sign, so had a good look around but could see nothing, then I saw the battery lid was open on one side and it was wet, and realised the poor bugger had taken a p#ss it had gone onto the battery, and he got a charge straight up the ol$ fell@,


Reminds me of two happenings.

The late Toby Alleyne, a dry man as posted elsewhere hereabouts, was told by the hostie that the door handle on the dunny was busted and the bloke inside wanted out. Tobe tried the spare tool, dunny doors, for the use of. No go. Back for the crash axe. Shouts through the handle hole 'KEEP WELL BACK IN THERE.' Two or three well directed blows and centre section of door gives in. And what did Tobe write in the 14-1 (the big tin book) but
TOILET DOOR U/S.

There were Duntroon cadets ('Cordies')in the late fifties learning to fly on Austers of Kingsford Smith Flying School. (One was Laurie Doyle - whatever happened to him?). One was telling members of the Canberra Aero Club about the rigours of the bastardisation all first year cordies underwent. When they weren't being ordered out of the sack at 0300 to go up Mount Pleasant and extinguish the flashing red hazard light, 'because it's stopping me getting to sleep', they were victims of cunning stunts such as going for a slash in the middle of the night and standing in bare feet and as soon as the stream hits the stainless a circuit is made through the thin wire the cordie's standing on and a concealed 12 v battery.

Oh and a follow on to stories lavatorial. Heard these two from QF engineers from 1049 days. Staging through Karachi some Paki engineer has pleasant task of clearing blockage in hand basin because someone has crapped in it. Writes in log ' wash basin blocked. used as urinal or arsinal.' One of the DN lags reads this the next day and adds his own rider. 'Snag rectumfied'.

No idea how authentic this one is but a onetime 1049 F/E swore that a lady of generous proportions was stuck on the dunny and the females of the cabin crew could not prise her off. He said he twigged there was an air lock or a partial vacuum in the bowl. He knocked politely and entered the shouse, soaped up his hands and said to the lady, by now suffused a bright shade of pink, 'Excuse me', slid his hands between her mighty thighs, and made hasty retreat back to his more accustomed station.

[Weheka]

Just nitpicking, but I think a sortie was one trip on operations and thirty sorties, or trips, made up a tour of operations. If you were lucky enough to survive your first tour you were "rested" at an operational training unit. Accidents here were all to common and a lot of crews were probably just as happy to take their chances with the second "tour" from which very few would survive. Sixty trips were required before they could stand down and not fly on any more ops.
Statistics were such you could not finish the first tour. The cost of aircrew lost was a staggering 55,573.
Bomber Command survivors have been treated very badly by the politicians, and others since the end of the war.
There are a lot of good books on the subject for anyone interested, which will make you wonder at their incredible bravery and dedication to what turned out to be a largely thankless job.

[Fantome]

Blue Carpet - luvverly pics (#24) of the Nine, thanks.

Please use the ventral entry.

[V2-OMG!]

fantome, suction is good - very healthful and tidy (at least most of the time).

Errrr......don't mean to come across as indelicate with this next one, but same thing happened on one of our riverboat casinos. Seems the plumber was a bit too ambitious with the suction setting on that "head" - was akin to the reverse thrust on a 747.

One poor woman made the mistake of flushing while she was still sitting,
and it sucked her intestines right out. She then had the presence of mind to pick up her "long dangle" which looked just like links of breakfast sausage, walk up to one of the floor dealers and say, "I think I have a problem."

The surgeons were able to stuff it back in and she was back at the slot machines in no time. What a trooper! Seems you can't keep a dedicated punter away from those jackpots....come 'ell or highwater.

[Obie]

So now we're into toilet humour?...

give us a break!

[teresa green]

Weheka, you are probably correct, I know 30 raids normally was the finish of that tour, very few made it of course, but somehow Peter kept going and it beggers belief that he survived. I think only 10 or so Lanc pilots did out of a amazing nbr who attended flying school in Canada. He did not talk about it to much, to painful, and being only 22 years old, and a country lad at that he dealt with it in his own way (no councillers then) and tried not to look back. Hard to imagine having somebody trying to kill you every time you took to the air.

[Fantome]

In his recent biography of Hughie Edwards VC, Arthur Hoyle recounts Edward's 50 plus missions as evidence of extraordinary luck. Edwards was not according to Hoyle's research a particularly skillful pilot either, and was not unknown to land outside the flarepath even when no unusually hazards existed.

Leonard Cheshire VC was another bomber pilot with a high number of trips who
was born lucky.

[Weheka]

Your right, Cheshire did 100 trips and so did a few others, "Tubby' Baker 635 Sqd did 100 in Wimpeys, Stirlings and Lancs. Other members of the flight crews also did high numbers.

Some of the aircraft had an amazing run of luck as well, with 30 known Lancs to have completed 100 or more, 130 odd is the highest number I think, S suger?
Aussies very own G George in Canberra war memorial did 90 trips!

A good read because it has a lot of photos, which really tell the story, is Lancaster, by M Garbett and B Goulding.

[Dog One]

Any one remember how the -9 operated into the NT. was the schedule BNE - ISA - DN and return, or did the aircraft continue on through WA. Was the tower at GV ever manned for the -9 ops?

[Capt Claret]

Any one remember how the -9 operated into the NT.

It's my understanding that the tower at Gove was never manned. I stand to be corrected if wrong though.

In the late 70's, as a res clerk with TAA, I recall making a reservation for a friend and her husband to travel to some place called Gove, from Melbourne. The aircraft into Gove was a DC9, though I can no longer remember its departure point.

Now, I fly it in a DC9 on steroids. :8

[ACMS]

I'm not sure when TN flew the 9 into GOVE but Ansett flew the 737-300 CNS GOVE DRW vv in the late 80's.

The tower was there but no one was home :ok:

[aerodyne47]

Dept policy was that all RPT jet had to fly in controlled airspace and to towered airports. (F28s were given a dispensation) As I understand it, Gove Tower was built because 9's lacked the range to carry an alternate for DN to a suitable airport in the monsoon season.

After it was completed, sanity prevailed and a decision was taken that a tower service was not really necessary. All the controller would be doing is separating the inbound aircraft from its own planned departure and completing the requirements for a distance education post-graduate degree.

There have been a number of plans over the years to do something with the tower, including one to dismantle it and move it to Nasouri, Fiji. I suspect it still rests (rusts?) in Gove.

[Eastwest Loco]

From memory, what is left of it anyway TN556/557 did something like MEL-BNE-CNS-GOV-DRW-PHE-PER using the DC9.

This was late '70 - early '80s I think, as I was at TN WNY at the time.

Best all

EWL

[Givelda]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3341/3266013968_8b9d09961a.jpg?v=0

My logbook indicates that I took this photo at Gove in January '86. You can see the "tower" in the background, but I cannot recall if it was manned or not. (By the looks of the trees surrounding it - probably not!) My last trip there was in May '89 in a 737-300. Each time, I can recall talking to someone on the radio on the way into Gove, but it would have been most likely Flt Service, because on one occasion that sticks in my mind, there was a bit of "VFR" traffic that we seemed to be talking to - to sort out separation ourselves (which actually worked very well) - as we carried out a DME arrival in very wet weather to the minima.

[Aye Ess]

My logbook has an entry that I crewed DC9 VH-TJR BN-TL-CS-GV-DN on 19 Jan 1987. We overnighted DN then deadheaded home to BN the next day,so I don't know where the 9 continued on to. Gove was uncontrolled & it was a strange sight doing a walk around a DC9 at an airport with no other aeroplanes.

[sixtiesrelic]

I went CS GOV DN and DN GOV CS BN the next day in may 1979 in Ansett DC-9.
I Remember at some stage the MMA crews took the 9 down to Perh via PD I guess while we overnighted in DN.
I seem to remember lowered tire pressures too.

[C441]

In a previous post I mentioned an Ansett 9 diverting into Groote after having issues with some dodgy weather in Gove. That would have been between May and October 1980. They were operating CNS-GV-DRW mid-morning and after a couple of goes in Gove had no gas for Darwin and popped down to Groote - for a couple of days.

Gove definitely didn't have a tower then only Flight Service (and what a top bunch of blokes they were.)

I believe, from memory this was the incident that led to Provisional TAF's and the requirement for an Alternate associated with them.

[forget]

Not strictly DC-9 but someone mentioned Lancasters. Here’s a shot of one of your Oz WWII All Stars. Keith Schultz, second from left. Early ‘70s he flew me and other Bristow guys between Singapore and Sumatra in a SAATAS QueenAir. Keith had operated Lancasters out of RAF Waddington, my last station only three years earlier, and he never mentioned he’d picked up a DFC ………… and Bar. :D:D He died about 18 months ago.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/schultz.jpg

[Dog One]

Can any one remember what Australian DME was fitted to the -9. Was it the AWA Van 3?, with only distance readout. Great fun doing DME homings, no G/S readouts, all done by timing.

[glitchfield]

Ahhh!! Sweet memories. Billeted in the Ilikai Hotel on the 32nd level with views of next-door Hilton Village and Waikiki beach stretching to Diamond Head. A thousand yachts tied up at the marina with the odd female body clad in bikini showering on the jetty. The resonance of deep-throated notes from conch shells as lamps were lit by lap-lap clad native Hawaiian employees running the gauntlet of strategically placed illuminators, announcing the commencement of a night of inestimable fun for the tourists, sadly excluding we students who were about to be introduced to the thrill of learning to operate a DC-9 on back-of-the-clock rostered training flights.
Who was it who said this performing fighter-like aircraft had to be handled with extreme caution immediately after take-off? With elongated fuselage and the increased power of later model engines compared to those operated back in Australia by TAA and Ansett, these wizened pros, the Hawaiian Airlines instructors, demonstrated the ease with which a 25-degree banked turn off the deck for noise abatement compliance, was handled with confidence-building ease.
Back-of-the-clock operations ensured a minimum of conflicting traffic to and from Honolulu International airport, making the introduction to this magnificent pilot's aircraft practically stress-free. While the eventual introduction of simulators put finish to such endorsements, the memories linger on, to the boredom of the ear-bashed younger generations.
Lest we forget!:D

[B772]

C441. For the interest of readers I think the Capt. of the AN DC9 that went to GTE was Graeme Stewart.

[Blue Sky Baron]

If PPRuNers are seriously interested in collating all these stories into a book I would be more than happy to put that book into production with a little help from a few of you.

To make it more interesting maybe we could have various chapters -
Various aircraft types
Various airlines
Interesting ground crew stories
etc, etc.

I've put several books together and this one sounds like lots of fun.

It's up to you guys/gals to provide enough material to make it interesting for all to read so if you think its a goer I'm in!

BSB:D

[K9P]

I was working for TN on Line Maint when this story was about:-
A9 departing Bris. a pax asked a FA if she could put some mubcrabs he had been given somewhere cool.
On finals into Tulla she remembered the mudcrabs, but forgot which pax gave them to her.
So she asked over the PA "Could the gentleman that gave me the crabs please see me after we land".
Apparently the cabin erupted.

[Fris B. Fairing]

Think that story originated at least six Douglas Commercials earlier. Oldie but goodie.

[The Wawa Zone]

GV Tower is still there. It was used for one day, to test it after it was commissioned and handed over. The decision not to man it had already been made, so after the first day everything was turned off and abandoned, and that was that !

[teresa green]

Glitchfield1 I think the Ilakai was known as Menopause Manor by QF crews due to the nbr of well padded middle aged ladies who went there from stateside for their hols. Spent a couple of interesting evenings there with mates at the Top of the I, and knowing who you are Sir let me introduce a legend in TAA and a very well known fighter pilot in the Royal Australian Navy, no names no pack drill, but welcome Sir if any of us could fly as well as you or had your experience we would be honored.:D

[tipsy2]

I will concur with teresa's comments re glitchfield. I was a bit concerned about his last know location and the weekend fires but I see he has relocated to a little bit of paradise.:ok:

[glitchfield]

Teresa Green, you really do humble me ..... but I cannot say it is not a boost to know that at least someone thinks I did something right. Thankyou.:ok:

[RampDog]

Thanks everyone, reading your posts inspired me to sort through some of my Dad's collection of TAA stuff that he's hoarded in his shed over the years. Old Ollie worked in TAA "Aircraft Maintenance" from about 1959 to his retirement in 1985. He was an aircraft cleaner and windscreen washer :ok: but took his job so seriously that you would have thought that whenever he called in sick they would have had to ground the entire fleet until he came back!!! He, like all you others, loved his TAA, and even now, from his nursing home still talks about the good times of Aussie aviation. It wasn't just about business and shareholders, it had a soul and was a living, breathing family affair. I grew up in an era when you could come to work with your Dad and walk out on the tarmac no ASICs, no AFP or SNP security to hassle you, just smell the kero and avgas and talk to the people who flew and maintained the aircraft. It must have had an effect on me (my wife reckons "scarred for life":}) because I'm still out there airside sniffing the fumes:{.
Who remembers the Super 30? What about the Super 80 that DC tried to flog us. Have a look at the article espousing the magic of brewing fresh coffee on the new DC9:yuk:
I've quickly thrown together some images in a PDF file for those interested,(a 1.8Mb download).

http://users.tpg.com.au/nemtrans/TAA DC-9.pdf

BTW The DC9 on that cover of TransAir magazine was actually one of many scale replica models that in about 1966, TAA commissioned Ollie to build, and they used them for promotional displays.
PS If my memory serves me right, The TAA DC-9s were registered VH-TJJ thru to TJU and they were assigned the names of famous old Aussies. A Chup-a-Chup to anyone who can correctly name all of them!! (answers in a couple of days if no one is up to it):rolleyes:.

[Dog One]

Well done Rampdog!

[Eastwest Loco]

Ramp Doggie

The Super 30 tag was allowed by Douglas (or was is McD then) after TN upgraded the cabins and some avionics to the Super 80 specs making them much nicer for the SLF with enclosed roof lockers and engine synch to stop the oscillation in the rear of the cabin caused by the harmonic between the turbines.

One personal favourite with the '9 was when IPEC got the contract to fly 4 (or more) loads of Power Gel, or Gelegnite into DPO as ICI had screwed up the sea shipping arrangements.

Power Gel is very inert in the abscence of detonators, but even so I have never seen multiple arrivals of a DC9 anywhere greased on so gently. The crews were welcomed into the Eeenie Weenie back room and made at home, and even though the load was very safe they were very happy to be on the ground.

It was excellent to see IPA (or it may have been IPF - one was an Argosy, the other a DC9 - time dims the mind) departing on the return empty leg, as it was not hard to urge the crews into a full power departure and Oggie and the other FSU guys were happy to turn a blind eye while still enthusiastically watching.

For any of you who remember Oggie from the DPO FSU, you can find him behind the bar on Spirit of Tasmania and occasionally at the DPO RSL. I also catch up to Neil Fraser there some times and regularl make bookings for Bungy from the DPOKT fireies.

Best all and long live the TN 2 holer.

EWL

[Jabawocky]

I see the DC-9 had Four Hostesses..........Cactus1549 had 3 CC and twice the pax! :hmm:

[Led Zep]

RampDog:

VH-TJJ: Edmund Kennedy. Later renamed Hamilton Hume.
VH-TJK: Douglas Mawson.
VH-TJL: Angus McMillan.
VH-TJM: John Roe. Later renamed Robert Towns.
VH-TJN: Paul Strzelecki.
VH-TJO: William Wentworth.
VH-TJP: Charles Kingsford Smith.
VH-TJQ: John Flynn.
VH-TJR: George Bass.
VH-TJS: Peter Warburton. Later renamed Douglas Mawson.
VH-TJT: Joseph Hawdon.
VH-TJU: John Roe.

How'd I go? :E

EW Loco, VH-IPF was IPEC Aviation's Spirit of Endeavour. Looking at RampDog's photos, it may have been sistership to YU-ANB before IPEC got hold of her?

[RampDog]

Led Zepp you're 100% correct. You can be on my team at the next trivia night I go to. I don't think too many people would have known all those names - and in the correct order!

[QSK?]

Still reckon that nothing looks better than a B727 with everything hanging out.

[A. Le Rhone]

Ramp Dog: "It wasn't just about business and shareholders, it had a soul and was a living, breathing family affair. I grew up in an era when you could come to work with your Dad and walk out on the tarmac no ASICs, no AFP or SNP security to hassle you, just smell the kero and avgas and talk to the people who flew and maintained the aircraft. It must have had an effect on me (my wife reckons "scarred for life"http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/badteeth.gif) because I'm still out there airside sniffing the fumes)"

How well written, couldn't have put it better myself!

And then along came the super-businessmen. They changed the name to Australian, they masterminded the pilot dispute and the nepotistic politicians decimated TAA completely by having it taken over by Qantas and making it a non-entity.

Have a look at the Qantas website and see how much of their history page is (or more accurately, isn't) dedicated to TAA. An insignificant sideshow in their eyes one suspects.

It may be quaintly old-fashioned but I for one miss the days of working with folks with attitudes like your dad and working for people who deserved and got respect. Airline CEO's now are purely fixated on the bonuses, egos and decimating the employment conditions of the enemy - their staff.

Sound like an old codger don't I, but I'm not even that old!

[1746]

Bravo, Hear, hear!:D:D

[A. Le Rhone]

QSK....I agree about the 727 comment too..
http://www.aircraftphotos.biz/AP-Images/TAA-logo4.gif

[A. Le Rhone]

Thread drift alert....but had to post this as it was relevant:
http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/6/8/2/1331286.jpg (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Trans%20Australia%20Airlines%20-%20TAA/Boeing%20727-76/1331286/L/&width=1024&height=696&sok=WHERE__%28airline_LIKE_%27Trans_Australia_Airlines_-_TAA%25%27_OR_airline_LIKE_%27TAA_Airlines_of_New_Guinea_%28 Trans_Australia_Airlines_-_TAA%29%25%27_OR_airline_LIKE_%27TAA_Sunbird_Services_%28Tra ns_Australia_Airlines_-_TAA%29%25%27%29_&sort=_order_by_photo_id_DESC_&photo_nr=22&prev_id=1333178&next_id=1331276)

[Aye Ess]

A regret I have from my time with Australian Airlines on the DC9,was that I didn't take many photos. So,seeing we're all getting along real well,how about all you Ppruners spend the rest of today going through your old photos/slides & posting them for us all to have a laugh,cry or reminisce? Aww,come on....please....I'll be your friend.

[Propstop]

Rampdog
I do remember Old Ollie and his models when I was an LAME in SYD during the 70s. He was one of nature's gentleman and was in an era where TAA was truly the 'Friendly Way'. I really do miss those days and the TAA family in SYD in that era.
Where I am working now there are about 4 DC9-30 doing regular passenger flights and they still look a nice aircraft.

[chimbu]

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv173/milcor/DC92.jpg?t=1234511297

Behold the office.

Someone asked about the diesel DME. The DME is fitted above the two red lights above the altimeter.
Standard DME fitment to all TAA aircraft as long as I flew them and did not have ground speed readout.

Note the splendid ergonomic design with every control or switch falling to hand. Unlike the Diesel's replacement which was an ergonomic nightmare. In fact things didn't improve until the NG Boeing 737 came along.

Note too, the radio altimeter fitment next to the A/H so this picture must have been pre '83. At top right, the 'flip up', slider, mechanical checklists. By far the simplest and most 'idiot proof' I've used.

The speed brake handle is next to the thrust levers and these devices actually worked on the Diesel. Unlike the 737, on which the deployment of the speedbrake did nothing much except shake the airframe and illuminate a green light.

http://i681.photobucket.com/albums/vv173/milcor/DC1.jpg?t=1234511727
Wonder who the hostie was? Keen to be 'in the frame' it would appear.

Note the forward airstairs. Inspired fitment on the Diesel. Regretably, someone in Tulla top-floor mahogony row decided against them for the B737. Maybe by then, accountants were starting to make equipment decisions. We had one GM who was an accountant.

Chimbu

[Aye Ess]

Thanks Chimbu,great photos. Where was the DC9 parked & what date....judging how shiney it was it must have been recently painted in it's last colours.

[chimbu]

Around mid 1984, but unsure of the location. Have to ask my vice-presidential running mate (MW), who snapped me. He might remember.

UPDATE- Second pic taken in May 1984 at Gove. The routing was Cairns- Gove- Darwin.

[teresa green]

Whoever is interested in writing a book speak to Glichfield, already a author, and a TAA legend, he is the man with most knowledge. (He is going to kill me for this) this bloke could land a 747 on a aircraft carrier if need be, he knows everybody and makes the rest of us look like baby ducks when it comes to flying. Try to sign him up.:D

[HANOI]

There was a story a long time ago about Glichfield ( ex RAN Fleet Air Arm ) enroute Lae-Rabaul in a TN DC3 , sighting the British aircraft carrier HMS Hermes heading for SEATO exercises in the Bismarck Sea.
To the horror of his F/O ( possibly Mardling ), and the vessel , he performed a missed approach then cleared out due to too many Buccaneers in the circuit.
May not be entirely correct but made a great talking point in the old TAA mess in Lae.

[tinpis]

Did they ever try a 9 in PNG?

[airsupport]

All this DC9 talk is just SO nostalgic for me, albeit with the "other mob".

One of the finest Aircraft ever built.

I still remember as an Apprentice in the late 1960s being part of the Crew that met and towed away at Essendon the very first DC9 into Australia, VH-CZB.

It was also the first Airframe Course I did.

Of course have some scary memories too, like coming within inches of running out of runway on takeoff from Honiara with a load of Tuna.

I know you Pilots would see it a lot, but one of my nicest inflight memories is one day years ago while in the jumpseat of a DC9 from CNS to BNE, ROK Control asked us our DME distance ROK, then asked another Company DC9 the same thing, when I asked the Captain what that was for he just said keep watching closely out the front, what a sight 2 DC9s passing each other, it was all over in seconds.

[Givelda]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3525/3278483528_c445441564.jpg?v=0

Not your normal airplane photo, but full of memories. Took this in '83 - at Tulla where TN "Diesel Drivers" and "Diesel Mechanics" learnt how the "beast" worked.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3333/3277660947_eb27abb8a1.jpg?v=0

Another flight deck shot with the indespensable ARG on the clip in front of GB's hand. Also you can see the VAN-5 (was it!) DME channel selector (on 10 for Rocky) and the readout above the altimeter.
I used to always carry around a little 110 camera (later went hi tech with a 35mm) in the bottom of my Nav bag - managed to get a number of photos - although most are still in a box waiting to be scanned - one day!!!!

[Aye Ess]

Great memories Givelda,thanks. Instead of getting all these amazing stories & photos put into a book,let's use this thread as an Electronic Book. That way everyone can keep adding stories & photos for years. Everyone could encourage fellow aviation personel to contribute. So,PLEASE dig out the photos,the old nav bag & log books,so we can all share the good old days.

[hbomb]

Good idea Aye Ess. This must be the best thread ever!

[HANOI]

Tinpis

TAA used to operate a weekly DC9 CNS-POM-HIR v.v. but not internally.

[teresa green]

Givelda, it makes me homesick. Nothing I flew from the Tiger Moth, yes the Tiger Moth, to the 747 makes me turn to water like that picture of the "liddle girlies" (as our italian LAME used to call her) flight deck, How lucky were we. They can stick their glass cockpits, what memories. :)

[bug-er-up]

For the love of God (and nostalgia) some-one start a 727 thread.The Diesel Nine didn't have a flight engineer and therein lies another million stories and lies to be told!

[sixtiesrelic]

Hmm Chimbu... bet that FO's trousers don't fit him now.
The Melbourne nine simulator... remember the kitchen chair the instructor sat on between the victims.
During my endorsement at one of those bloody awful back of the clock sims, the other F.O and I were real tired.
On one take off, a wing started dropping and I shoved in rudder.
More rudder
More rudder and LOTS of aileron.
We shook and staggered into the air and I'm tryin' to identify the engine and keep the bugger climbing.
Me mate's having trouble identifying the engine and watching the flight instruments at the same time, callin' heading, heading, speed, speed.
Ray Donaldson, our instructor (We were the orange and brown mob... THAT'S why it was back of the clock!) fell backwards off that silly little chair from laughing so much.
Well.... the way she was flying , with full crossed controls; it felt like an engine failure.
What about the crappy visual display. Just lots of pinpoints of lights to outline the features.
At the end of our sims, if we had a good Checkie, we could do a bit of free flyin'.
Even though the visual display was pretty basic, we still felt that we were screaming up the freeway below the streetlights and then at the end snaped into a vertical bank to fit between the hi rises.
Those hirises always looked like the pinpoints of light were the windows, so you had to allow a bit more room from them for the edge of the building.
Good immaginations!
We WERE from the last generation to be able to play with a lump of scrap wood and believe it was a truck, tractor, grader or train as we played in the dirt under the house.

[Aye Ess]

That old DC9 sim must have trained thousands of pilots over the years. The smell as one entered the black,evil hole was of sweat & fear.On the FO's side where the control column entered the floor,the rubber surround had a hole in it,which was handy when the mind was starting to think things were going dangerously bad,the eyes could just glance down and be reassured to see the brightly lit concrete floor.

[Stationair8]

When did TAA/Australian run the last DC-9 ground school and endorsements for pilots then?

Did FO's get upgraded to DC-9 command in the last few years of operation?

Did TAA/Australian do training for the Ipec pilots upgrading to the DC-9?

[Critical Reynolds No]

Le Rhone:
Have a look at the Qantas website and see how much of their history page is (or more accurately, isn't) dedicated to TAA. An insignificant sideshow in their eyes one suspects.

You just have to talk to the TAA Museum guys. When Qantas took over the lpace they threw all of the TAA stuff into big dumpsters. Most of the stuff in the museum was rescued. How much more stuff was lost may never be known.

[Mr.Buzzy]

Managed to rescue a few things too!

[Tee Emm]

On the FO's side where the control column entered the floor,the rubber surround had a hole in it,which was handy when the mind was starting to think things were going dangerously bad,the eyes could just glance down and be reassured to see the brightly lit concrete floor.


At least that's a bit better than the old 737-200 simulator at Aer Lingus in Dublin. When you donned the oxy masks for the emergency descent and breathed in normally, you got the stink of a combination of dead cockroaches, cigarette butts, and lots of other smelly uglies picked up by the trailing end of the oxy hose dangling a few inches from the floor of the simulator bay.

[Tee Emm]

Ray Donaldson, our instructor (We were the orange and brown mob... THAT'S why it was back of the clock!) fell backwards off that silly little chair from laughing so much.


Now, there was a fine instructor. He is still around at Westmeadows and flies model aeroplanes in retirement. One of nature's gentlemen, to coin a hackneyed phrase.

[teresa green]

God, I had forgotten about the smell of the sim, but never forgotten the smell of the actual aircraft, no pansy bloody smell, just always had a nice sort of engine smell, and I know I am becoming pathetic, but didn't her donks always have a good odor, all nice and black (none of this enviromental crap) as we all know the 9 didnt give a pigs ar#e about the butterflys and the polar bears, there was no doubt, you could hear and see her coming and going, screaming, with great trails of black smoke at times, a greenies nightmare really, but could make your hair stand on end. A real blokes toy.

[Aye Ess]

Yes Teresa Green the DC9 aircraft did have a nice homely smell as soon as you entered the front door. A mix of aeroplane airfreshener,F/A perfume & freshly brewed coffee. Enter the flightdeck,close the door,slide into the comfy seat & breath a sigh of contentment.....I'm home.

[Capt Claret]

slide into the comfy seat ....

Really? Why didn't Boeing use the bloody thing for the Roid version????

B717 - a DC9 on steroids

[Wiley]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the control column. The -9 yoke simply had to be the nearest thing to a glove I've come across in all the types I've ever flown. It was as though some bright designer had taken my hand and made a shape for it to fit around... err.. like a sort of reverse glove. The 727 yoke is a slapped together piece of tubular metal in comparison - and the 777 not a hell of a lot better.

[chimbu]

Memories Sixtiesrelic,

Last I saw of the old sim was when contractors (expanding the centre) broke through a large wall to remove it, around 1990. It was then trucked to RMIT for their 'aviation department' where it lived for the rest of the nineties. Wonder where it is now?


Chimbu

[KeepItRolling]

One of earliest memories as a young'n is visiting that sim while Dad was putting some poor bugger through the wringer or being wrung himself :}(I was only 6 at the time and the memory is a bit fuzzy). I remember the stairs being a bit high for comfort.:uhoh:

Dad liked the old Diesel - think he was on it for about 2 years before the Boeing.:)

[Aye Ess]

Chimbu,I found the DC9 simulator! It's at the Moorabin Air Museum. Check it out http://www.aarg.com.au/ipix_images/VirtualTour9.htm

[sixtiesrelic]

OK! who's looked at it and gotten the sick feeling?
I can't remember climbing up into it ... last time for me was late 81.

[Aye Ess]

Yes,Sixtiesrelic,I would feel sick. Maybe we should get a group together and visit the old sim. Wonder would we place flowers on it or stand around it & do a group urination on it.

[sixtiesrelic]

Now that'd be fun because no license would be dependent our performance.
We could do inverted ILS's in it to our heart's content

[Dog One]

Not a bad effort, 380 posts and over 27,000 viewers. The thread has been a pleasure to read - no fights or arguements, just a lot of nostaliga. Hope there are still more posts to come!

[Aye Ess]

And this is just for the Diesel 9. Maybe others who loved the other aircraft types could start different threads.....the F27 lovers could have "Fokker tails;the end of a beautiful Friendship".....B737 "The plastic maggot with hubcaps"....B727 " I love having 3 holes"......DHC6 "Oh,what a feeling;Twin Otter"

[sixtiesrelic]

Wasn’t the nine the first aircraft to come with the embarrassment switch on the yoke. The one some pressed the wrong way and everybody heard.
Back in the olden days when the last century wasn’t yet at the half way mark, pilots and controllers regularly had a glass of beer together after work. That was when most of the posters and readers here were somewhere between liquid form and short pants wearers at primary school.
Sometimes the beer drinkers would point out the other mob’s shortfalls that day. I believe on a couple of occasions imbibers even went out the back and punched each other.
Of course in those days when punchers got puffed they’d shake hands and go back in to finish their drinks as friends.
They were the more senior blokes.
At the same time, real junior blokes like Jimmy Murtha and Barry Ball were domiciled at Charleville and wore TAA uniform short trousers, long sox and no tie. They were commanders of the mighty Dragons, which they had to fill from four-gallon tins through chamois covered whacking great funnels at Channel country strips. Sometimes ringers even helped them.
A decade or two later, Ball wore four bars and was sitting six or so miles above the earth in a DC-9 over the other side of the cockpit from Charlie Gray.
Ball’s mates knew him by a slightly different name. One where a U replaced one of the vowels in his name. It was one of those descriptive names.
Charlie wasn’t a man for long conversations. He listened a lot.
Barry had just related some long story across the intercom and Charlie reacted.
Remember the withering look over his glass and the quiet, terminating ejaculation of, “Balllls!” when everybody in the group was just thinking that.
Dunnow if it was the lack of company or a glass of something strong that did it, but Charlie announced that much of what came out of his mate’s mouth was a bit unbelievable.
Amongst the complex sentence were quite a lot of rude words.
Ball sat quietly digesting this for a while till they were startled by the advice from Rocky control that “the last came over the air”.
On the return leg as they flew past Rocky the same controller mentioned there had been a technical glitch and some of the day’s tape had been erased.
Mates!

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g32/sixtiesrelic/twodragonsMayDowns.jpg
Back when blokes like Murtha and Ball were commanders of mighty Dragons

[dijon moutard]

I can remember the days when my father would relate stories about the dc-9.
when taa first introduced the dc-9 they did not think about sufficient spare engines for the new dc-9 jet fleet.
an interesting story was when my father had to fly a dc-4 freighter with a P&W in the cargo bay all the way to Hawaii and to meet a (usa) freight aircraft to then have the said engine transferred for (USA) maintenance/repair.
they arrived in hawaii after a tiring "hop" across the pacific ocean and due to paperwork/misunderstanding's and a lovely new P&W engine (in a "beat-up DC-4" :their words) in the hold the entire crew were then arrested by US Customs.
the "yanks" thought they(TAA) were some funny cargo mob (illegally) stealing/importing a brand new P&W engine into the USA.
They had never heard of company called TAA (to them it sounded like some south american illegal/shonky operation)!
Frantic phone calls back to australia and some hours later the entire crew were eventually released and arrangements made for the transfer of the engine.
the freight mob turned up and started the transfer/removal of the engine.
all was going fine until one of the "slings" slipped and the once proud engine fell onto the tarmac at Honolulu and caused more damage than "wear and tear" had ever caused.
Captain John Humphreys was now informed that this (now substantially damaged engine) would now cause/require a substantial delay in the turn-around time in Honolulu.
the entire crew got more than a week off in beautiful Hawaii whilst waiting for the engine to be repaired and returned to Honolulu.

cheers
dijon moutard

[sixtiesrelic]

That would have been around the time the Aussie airlines decided that four bars were necessary.
Someone from Douglas or Boeing explained to the briefing officer who had ignored a couple of old blokes wearing three bars at the counter at flight planning, that these two were number one and something very close to that, from Australia's national airline and weren't a couple of freight dogs.
The briefing officer was quite appologetic.

[Animalclub]

They had never heard of company called TAA (to them it sounded like some south american illegal/shonky operation)

In LAX and, I understand, Burbank (TAA Supply office) we were never allowed to answer the telephone with "TAA"... it had to be "Trans Australia Airlines". Appears "TAA" sounded like "T I I" to the Americans!!

[chimbu]

And that is why we quickly learnt to say 'T double A'.

Even that didn't work sometimes.

Aussie tourist: 'Hi we're from T double A,'

Yank: 'Huh,'

Aussie: 'You know, the airline T double A,'

Yank: 'O, you mean T double ya A (TWA),'

Aussie: No, T double A. Here let me write it'.

One very confused yank. Hopefully no lasting damage to ANZUS relations.:)

[RampDog]

Something for EastWest Loco to check out (I know you're keeping an eye on this thread:)) & A. Le Rhone too!

Pictures by rampdoggie - Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/rampdog_on_pprune)

I've dug up heaps of really old stuff in Ollie's shed (magazines, newspaper clippings even unfinished balsa wood DC9 models!!).
Judging by the feedback, I think a "D & G Nostalgia" forum would be a winner if it was given a run. Any seconders?

[Dog One]

Well done Rampdog, excellent reading and fits well into this thread. Forgot about the losses TAA made. That would probably be a story in itself.

[Wiley]

Appears "TAA" sounded like "T I I" to the Americans!!Brings to mind an old war-ie that I'm told did the rounds in Townsville during WW2. A USAAF P39 pilot crashed his aircraft at Garbutt and ended up unconscious in the Townsville General Hospital. He wakes, liberally swathed in bandages, to find an Australian nurse with a very Norf Queensland accent hovering over his bed. "Oh my God," he says, "am I going to die?"
"Gawd no love," replies the nurse, "you only came in here yesterdie."

AN switched to four bars for an F27 captain in the early eighties, (~84?) after a succession of problems with Yank tourists on the Track Trip who refused to believe that the pilot wearing three bars was a 'real' captain. Only a few years earlier, a new captain on the F27 only got to wear two and a half bars until his first licence renewal.

Edited to add: I think the two and half bars lasted longer than the first renewal, because my first traing captain was still wearing two and half bars when he did my initial line training.

[Dog One]

Does any one remember the story on the F27 loss at Amberley?

[Aye Ess]

F27 VH-TQQ damaged/written off at Amberley June 1982. Training,single engine landing.

[Animalclub]

succession of problems with Yank tourists on the Track Trip

Don't I remember them well!!!! The number of times that Connair (ASP-ISA) didn't connect with Bush Pilots (ISA-CNS) caused one Tour Operator in Long Beach (NRTA/AARP) to put the bight on TAA for an over-ride commission on all TAA sector fares that they used... or guarantee the ASP-CNS sector with an F27. It was cheaper to operate the F27!! I did the deal with Geoffrey Bowen-Jones and Paul Edwards in Ops.

The rest is history... it became a DC9 sector.

[18-Wheeler]

Appears "TAA" sounded like "T I I" to the Americans!!

Quick thread hijack - At the flying school I worked for at Coolangatta Airport back in the 80's, we ordered something from the US and I did that over the phone. The poor US lass on the other end seemed to have trouble with my accent, but eventually the address in Aus was passed on.
Package arrived with all correct except for the suburb - "Cool and Ghetto Airport".
I'm still laughing twenty years later. :D

[tipsy2]

Animalclub, Paul Edwards was originally in shambles (Schedules) planning and that was all he knew, he mercifully didn't get involved in Op's by default and deceit till about '89.

Out of his depth in op's, a misfit who could write a good looking timetable that bore no resemblance to the real operational world.

Ultimately rose to an EGM position at QF. Says it all really.

[Animalclub]

tipsy2
You'd think after 40 years in the business I'd know (and remember) the difference twixt Ops and Schedules Planning!!!!

[Givelda]

Dragged out an old box of TAA/Australian documents, etc - what they would call "ephemera'' on the Antiques Roadshow although my wife describes it as "old s......". Anyway, in a trip back in time for those that were there or as an idea of the way we did it, (assuming my memory can recall all that everyday stuff we used to do), the following is some of the things we used to carry to work on the -9.

Sorry for the large post!!!! for those not interested in this one.

Like today, we had a roster, which in my time was put together manually by a volunteer from the pilot ranks, but printed by the company so we could bid for a choice of flying and/or, in the case of the FO's, which Captain to fly with (avoid) - assuming you had the seniority to do so. Otherwise, it was the "Reserve" blocks for you.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3322/3298769991_aa7ce73f50.jpg?v=0

Once at the airport, we would personally go and get a weather briefing, collect the NOTAM's and retire to a table to work out the plan. After obtaining the aircraft rego and load, we would consult a book of "numbers" based on the expected head/tailwind to get the time intervals for the route which was entered into the appropriate colour area plan.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3322/3299630774_e4c47f6af9.jpg?v=0

Then the ATC plan (whichever version existed at the time) was filled in.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3373/3298810867_b81467a6d8.jpg?v=0
The fuel numbers were phoned back to "load control" and the ATC plan filed or handed to the Department Briefing Officer.

At the aircraft, after a chat with the girls, we did the walk round, had another chat with the girls, took a quick look at the "18" (Technical Log) and then carried out the preflight concluding with the obligatory check list. The -9 had a great system ( as mentioned in an earlier post) of flip up slide checklists on top of the coaming for the in-flight stuff, but we used a "paper" checklist for things like APU Start, Before Start etc.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3501/3299802696_6f4285472e.jpg?v=0
Just befores the doors were closed - the FO usually had the job of getting on the PA and announcing, "Would a hostess (sorry, Flight Attendant) at the rear of the aircraft raise the rear stairs and close the back door - or words to that effect". This could come early in the transit if we were in a race with the other "mob" to get away first and wanted to crank up the right engine - pretty much SOP at the smaller places like, Rocky etc. as we chased each other round the blocks. My quickest turn around was 8 minutes in the 9.

The load sheet would appear.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3514/3298891619_c21bb95db3.jpg?v=0
Thos one is from VH-TSD - as we called it (i.e. the simulator) and shows that max pax load was 93 (6 First, 87 Economy), Max Brakes Release Wt - 46720 kgs and ramp fuel, in this case was 16000 lb (cause the fuel gauges indicated in pounds). From memory again, max fuel was 24000lb but if you were desperate, you could squeeze in another 1000lbs by filling up the surge or overflow tanks at the wingtips

Later in the flight, the FO would fill in the Trip Record
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3343/3298783997_94652d6e94.jpg?v=0

If we had a problem, we could refer to the Emergency Procedures checklist (not the so named Non Normal checklist of today - which I believe is to keep the lawyers happy) which had the excellent Annunciator Panel cross reference guide (sort of ECAM actions checklist)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3486/3299721220_336ac9c6a4.jpg?v=0

For descent planning, if you were new to the fleet you could work out your descent point and then use the other side of it to keep a check on the way down as you went through the "gates" - for me, the main one was 17 at 47.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3655/3298928109_1a5a53183d.jpg?v=0

After shutting down, the "18" was filled in and the FO would slide open the window to drop it in the "bucket-on-a-stick" device the Engineers used to place outside the window after the chocks were in. I think that is still done to this day with QANTAS domestic.

Finally, fill in the "OD 4" in order to get paid and drop in into crewing on the way home.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3530/3298921517_31e649fd6c.jpg?v=0

And if you really wanted to, you could check how much your pay might be with the following table
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3531/3298916095_a312dbd3eb.jpg?v=0
The composite rate (Comp) was interesting, in that if you were a - 9 crew paxing on the -9 during the day, you actually earned slightly more per hour than the operating crew. This was explained to me as an incentive for the company to roster you more productively - still seemed to do a fair bit of paxing anyway.

Of course today much of this is computerised and the flight deck is almost paperless - isn't it!!!

[Dog One]

Good post Givelda.

Fancy flying a DC4 to Hawaii to pick up the spare engines. That would have been a trip to read about. My memories of the DC4 was a TAS of 180 kts at 10,000. With no GPS in those days I guess the crew would have comprised a Flight Navigator as well as two or three pilots and a engineer.

[teresa green]

Interesting about uniforms, somehow I managed to "volunteer" to go onto the DC3 VH MIN and was stationed at Boulia. The aircraft was seconded out wet to the Dept of Mineral Deposits and we lived at the Boulia pub. We spent most of our flying hours flying at 500 ft, in terrible heat all over the country side as the geographic boys did their job up the back. We were told to wear the correct TAA uniform at all times, Bollocks! We ended up flying in shorts, no top, baseball cap and army boots, until the day good ol Frank Ball and the rest of Fawlty Towers turned up without warning, to "view our operations." They waited politely for the geos to get off the aircraft to meet and greet their pilots, only to be met by a pair of "ferals" who needed a haircut, shave, stank, and dressed as described above. There was a deadly silence, and I knew "tea and bickies" was on. We met them back at the Boulia pub (after a very quick shower and shave) and waited for the bollocking, and sure enough Frank started politely about company policy, the publics perception of Airline Pilots etc (we only ever saw freccin kangaroos) we sat patiently and listened (politely) and asked perhaps he would like to join us on the following days flight, knowing full well we would be over desert, he of course agreed, so we turned up in full uniform including hat and off we went, (he in suit and tie) and we waited, and watched as he became increasingly uncomfortable, first the tie came off, he started sweating badly, and became very flushed in the face, and we continued to fly on (feeling like sh%t) then he started to look for water, (which we had under the seat) and he became increasingly agitated, and was pulling his shirt out, and we continued out futher into the desert, and so on, until he was really suffering, he said little, but was very grateful when the flight was over and returned to Boulia. We never heard another word on the subject, and never put on the uniform again until we flew back to MEL, (both the Skipper and myself both lost over 10 kilos in weight) and our uniforms no longer fitted, which was obvious on our arrival, that was never mentioned either, how times have changed!

[Al E. Vator]

http://i.pbase.com/o6/05/686005/1/71804873.i4mEO225.TAADC9FLIGHTDECKHBARF.jpg

[Aye Ess]

Thanks Givelda,they are classic memories,good work. Al E. Vator,nice piccy....beats me how you got all the lights displayed at once without seeing the test switch being used. Would make a great poster.

[Chief galah]

I found this in the bowels of an old suitcase under the house.
Pre DOT as in Givelda's example.

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff213/martyp52/B727flightplan.jpg

Gotta love ATC's approval for departure. The days of DCA OPS.

Also in there a 1976 issue of the "crash comic" with a report on a DC9
crash at Charlotte in the US. I'll post it later if it's OK to reproduce it.

[dijon moutard]

DC-4 hop across the pacific :Log book entry

the flight route involved for the DC-9 engine transfer : ML-NADI-CANTON ISL-HONOLULU


flight hours : ML-NADI : 12:55 (night) {August 13 1967}

: CANTON ISL-HONOLULU 10:50 (day) + 7:25 (night) {August 14 1967}

aircraft rego : TAC

crew :Captain J C Humphreys ; Simpson ; East ;Radle ; Allen

they used "pressure pattern" flying as a flight route to save time and fuel on the way through to Honolulu.

they did not depart until the 26th august 1967

cheers
dijon moutard

[dijon moutard]

the original batch of dc-9 crews did their initial line flying/endorsements in hawaii with Hawaiian Airlines.
they then returned to australia to do simulator followed up by further line training in australia.

Hawaiian Airlines were considered the experts on the dc-9 in the pacific ocean area .

my fathers instructor was a Captain Howard Phillips who had an interesting story of seeing/eyewitnessing the japanese attack on pearl harbour during wwII .

cheers
dijon moutard

[mocpac]

Gidday to all ....

I came across this thread today and I've had a smile from ear to ear reading the messages.

I was a schedules planner (12th floor 50 Franklin Street) and cut my teeth working on the Fokkers in and their timetables in 1974 before being let loose on the jets around 1975.

I did that for 12 years and witnessed the A300s and the 737 300s introduced to the fleet and the retirements of the 737 200s and of course the DC9s.

They were great days ... I still remember all the flight numbers and many of the scheduling patterns for the day by each aircraft type and even the timings. 461 CNS TSV BNE 464 BNE TSV CNS 463 CNS TSV BNE 462 BNE TSV CNS ... ahh the memories.

If anyone's got any questions about some of the particulars of the scheduling department, the personnel or (God forbid) the intricacies of the schedule, then please, by all means ask.

You've made my day coming across this.:)

Cheers

Mike

[mocpac]

... and to Stationair8 in case you query wasn't answered, yep the DC9 did freight runs ....

2211 MEL 0220 LST 0315 / 0350 HBA 0415 and 2218 HBA MEL at (if I recall) 2310 0015

[sixtiesrelic]

Ah! dijon moutard. So that's where CIS is.
I found it in my old man's logbook when he ferried an Electra (TLB) back from the States (after the wing mod, repairing the damage and preventing the mould that corroded the fuel tanks??)
Thought Christmas Island was a long way out of the way to Nadi.

[tipsy2]

G'day Mike, when did we operate 737-200's.

I can only ever remember the other mob operating them:confused:

[chimbu]

It took me years to figure out how they came up with TAA flight numbers, eg 466.
My theory is that TAA, heavily invested with ex RAAF & RAF WWII types, named them after squadrons. RAAF squadrons were numbed 450- 467.
466 being the famous Driffield (Norfolk, within sight of Lincoln cathedral) Wellington, then Halifax squadron.

[1746]

I think it was a typo. Maybe 727-200 was meant.

We never operated 737-200.

Mike, I do agree in that this thread certainly put a smile on my dial, which is great because there is not a real lot to smile about elsewhere.

Keep it up one and all:D:)

[tipsy2]

Chimbu, TN flight numbers were evens, North and Westbound, odds the other ways.

Im not sure the flight numbers related to squadron numbers deliberately. There was a register with all the various flight numbers for particular routes/special operations. Ferry flights, crew training flights, maintenance test flights, charters etc all had there own dedicated bracket of flight numbers.

[Dog One]

Fascinating - 32 hrs flying to Hawaii. Great thread, keep the stories coming!

[an3_bolt]

I would love to hear the details about Canton Island.

[Dog One]

Hi Al evator - can't open your link.

[dijon moutard]

i have discovered (in his logbook) that my father did another ferry flight to Honolulu in the DC-4 to bring back/exchange another DC-9 P&W engine.

this was a precursor to the other flight i discussed:logbook entry details

DC-4 : Rego : VH-TAF Crew :Captain J C Humphreys : Donnit :Haigh

April 16th 1966 : SYD-NANDI 1:0 (day) + 8:35 (night)

April 17th 1966 :NANDI-CANTON ISL-HONOLULU 4:40 (day) + 12:00 (night)

April 19th 1966 : HONOLULU-CANTON ISL- NANDI 7:35 (day) + 8:30 (night)

April 20th 1966 : NANDI - MELBOURNE 5:0 (day) + 7:40 (night)

cheers
dijon moutard:ok:

ps :those dc-4 freighters certainly earned their keep ;who would have thought a dc-4 would carry an engine for it's latter bretheren !

[dijon moutard]

as far as i know Canton Isl is in the Kirrabatti Island group ; although now spelled with a "K" instead of a "C" !

cheers
dijon moutard

ps : here is the link for info on Canton Island Kanton Island - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanton_Island)

[Jabawocky]

Must have been a few Humph's on the -9 at TAA.

I know another here in SEQ and what a bloody nice bloke he is too!:ok:

[Eastwest Loco]

Jabawocky

Dont't forget Kev Humpris - a total gentleman who could make an F27 look like a Lancaster taking off - beautiful airmanship. We would always go out an sit on a barrow or Ben Hur (Old TN pilots who flew through WNY would well remember the ubiquotos cut down Commer) just to watch him ease the girl off the ground, just like it was a thousand pounds over MBRW with a bouncing bomb in the belly.

He never went off propeller, and stepped down to the F27 by choice, God bless him.

Mopac

The DC9 freighters were cabin load with bags strapped into the seats at 77kg limit - less of course the weight of the bag from memory.

I would like to think you were in shambles planning around the time I was at TN WNY. I would send through on teletype our requirements for us at WNY and for "Rocky" Ray Stone at DPO for peak periods like Easter. Ray could never get hus point across, but I could break "Ray Speak" down. We eventually got the available aircraft advised and sent back a mini consolidated plan for the available equipment complete with flight numbers.

They were usually loaded as sent.

That was when TN dropped 4 number flight numbers for "specials" as agents were wary of them as they were liable to be chopped if groups dropped out. My one little impact in this domestic industry as I argued it made the punters wary.

One Easter weekend when the weather went to hell I had an ex F27 FO call on Transair to WNY at about 0300 to have a friendly dig that we were still 0on air with an air return back from MEL. When I got the call from TJL I nearly cacked myself, but he was just checking in and not needing to divert as it would have been interesting to get TJL out again. He did enquire if we still had the cheese on sale in the fridge and was advised in the affirmative.

Any aeroplane that leaves a nice black stripe in the sky behind and crackles under a decent amount of applied power is a serious aeroplane to me.

Greenpeace - go pound sand up your collective Borg arse.

Best all

EWL

[Al E. Vator]

Thread-drift sorry. EastWest, as a Tasmanian (?) these pics at HBA are for you and anybody else who may be interested
:
State Library of Tasmania catalogue • "Hobart Airport, engine maintenance, Beechcraft aeroplane" (http://catalogue.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/item/?id=AB713-1-10228)

This too at HBA (sorry it's not as ergonomic as a DC9):
State Library of Tasmania catalogue • "Hobart Airport, Pilots in cockpit of Viscount aeroplane" (http://catalogue.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/item/?id=AB713-1-10214)

Met office HBA:
State Library of Tasmania catalogue • "Cambridge Airport, Captain reports to civil aviation officer" (http://catalogue.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/item/?id=AB713-1-4056)

This is what's lacking now and why kids aren't getting into aviation (HBA again):
State Library of Tasmania catalogue • "Cambridge Airport, Captain of Convair" (http://catalogue.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/item/?id=AB713-1-4076)
State Library of Tasmania catalogue • "Cambridge Airport, cockpit of Convair" (http://catalogue.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/item/?id=AB713-1-4070)
State Library of Tasmania catalogue • "Cambridge Airport, air hostess of Convair" (http://catalogue.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/item/?id=AB713-1-4078)

A slightly battle-damaged 727-100 on HBA ramp:
State Library of Tasmania catalogue • "Hobart Airport, Boeing 727 Jet" (http://catalogue.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/item/?id=AB713-1-10221)
State Library of Tasmania catalogue • "Hobart Airport, Boeing 727 Jet" (http://catalogue.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/item/?id=AB713-1-10222)

:O

[dijon moutard]

DC-9-31: VH-TJJ (Edmund Kennedy, Hamilton Hume), VH-TJK (Douglas Mawson), VH-TJL (Angus McMillan), VH-TJM (John Roe, Robert Towns), VH-TJN (Paul Strzelecki), VH-TJ0 (William Wentworth), VH-TJP (Charles Kingsford Smith), VH-TJQ (John Flynn), VH-TJR (George Bass), VH-TJS (Peter Warburton, Douglas Mawson), VH-TJT (Joseph Hawdon), VH-TJU (John Roe).
(the 'J' designator following from the 727's, being the first Jet aircraft in the TAA fleet)

cheers
dijon moutard:ok:

[Al E. Vator]

Scroll each page down for those images above (rather than the little thumbnail)

[tinpis]

Did it happen? :rolleyes:
Shiny new TATAs(AA) 733 over the GAFA

TATAs (AA)733 calls passing AN 733 on company
" I say old chap, how does one get this bloody level change thingy to work?"

[tipsy2]

Tinpis, good story but just a small point......................

TAA never operated the 733. Australian did.

[tinpis]

God, I'm going to kill myself tipsy....how embarrass... :\

[mocpac]

My apologies ... it was a type and I did mean the 727 :ugh:

Eastwest loco

Yep, I dealt with Ron Stone and Dudley Bellchambers (at DPO and BWT respectively) and without fail, nearly every Friday, we'd have a discussion around which way the round robin 997 998 evening Fokker flight for the following week would be routed ... service BWT first or DPO ?

With regard to the freighter, sometimes the 2211 DC9 would not return to the mainland as the scheduled 498 HBA LST MEL service, instead coming back as a dedicated 2212 HBA MEL

As for the four digit flight numbers, we assigend (generally) 1900 to 1940 for specials and predominantly, they were for groups on the east coast operations.

Eventually, we migrated to the three digit series (and two digit if necessary) where we could, primarily for "specials" or ad hoc inventory allocated to each of the city pairs. For example, we had a scheduled 414 416 and 418 MEL SYD operation ..... 412 at that time had never been used but eventually became a routine MEL 0600 SYD 0710 service.

[Wiley]

tinpis, I believe the origin of your tale was somewhere near Adeliade soon after Australian got their shiny new 737-300s. As has been discussed at length here on other threads, the learning curve from the -9 to the 733 was steep to the point of being past vertical, particularly since Australian management had forgotten to allow for line training in the very tight plan they'd drawn up to introduce the new aeroplane.

Someone will doubtlesly correct me if I've got it wrong, but I think line training was four sectors, and there'd be few newcomers to the 733 from the -9 who'd consider that adequate.

Scene: Australian 73 is asked to descend by ATC. The 73 pilot responds. Pause. ATC asks 73 to call leaving. 73 acknowledges. Pause. ATC: "(c/s), have you left 310?" "Standby." Long pause. Second voice (the AN 733 also on frequency): "Press Level Change." "(c/s) left flight level 310."

[tinpis]

Your memory better than mine Wiley.Thanks :ok:

[emudodo]

Had a similar experience between Rocky & Mackay during the introduction of the 733 into TAA/Australian.

TJ* (can't recall callsign) enroute to CNS was at 290, we were at 310, he requested 330 and after ATC checked DME's from ROK was assigned 330. Quite some time passed and ATC asked had he left 290. "Negative" was the response, followed shortly thereafter by a request to see us on our company frequency (obviously didn't want their own to hear what he was about to ask !!). Upon switching over he asked "How do you make this thing go up". On suggesting LVL CHG be selected his response was "yep, there she goes, thanks I owe you a beer" and shortly thereafter they reported "left FL290".

On a similar note we were flight planning in MEL one morning and the TAA crew were whinging and bitching that they couldn't " go down and slow down in this little bast**d". I enquired as to what their problem was and was regailed with the old "In the diesel (DC9)I could pass over SYD NDB (GFD these days) at @ 300 kts and land straight in on Rwy 07, but I can't with this machine". "Of course you can", I retorted and left it at that.

We got away first on the East Coast Air Race and SYD Rwy 07 was duty runway, I was just turning off the runway when we heard him going around.

Both crews overnighted in CNS that night and he finally caught up with me and was somewhat miffed that he hadn't been able to achieve the 3000' x 300 kts @ 10 nm and land straight in. I then advised that it could be done but only if you were at 1000'.

But then in those days it was "fun" flying and there was good natured rivalry and both companies crews got on very well together, not quite the same today !!!

[Capt Fathom]

"Press Level Change."

"What's it doing now?" ....One of the most common statements made on the modern flightdeck!

[Stationair8]

Thanks EWL, for the answer on TAA running the DC-9 as a freighter.

Stupid question time, why was Ansett allowed to purchase the B737-200 in the early 80's as I was under the impression that during the two airline agreement both carriers had to operate the same equipment or have the same number of seats on the market?

[sixtiesrelic]

Ah! Stationair8 ... Once upon a time there was a fatman and the polititian.....

[tipsy2]

Stationair8, there are 2 answers to your question.

The first answer has been given by sixtiesrelic

Secondly, the capacity for example between Sydney & Melbourne remained equal as TN operated the AB3 with 220 (or there abouts) seats every 2 hours and AN operated the 732 hourly with some 112 seats. The 'capacity' therefore remained the same. That was the theory anyway.

[Dog One]

If my memory is correct, the Beech A80 intro in Tasmania was delayed for some reason, so TAA based a DC3 plus crew in HBA until the Beech was delivered. Some where at home I have a photo of the DC3 and A80 on the tarmac with a TAA 727 on crew training doing a missed approach off the ILS. Hobart at that stage had not being upgraded to take the DC9 or 727. I will dig the photo out next time I am home.

[Pedota]

Please forgive me if some of these stories have already been told . . . many will remember Alan XXX, the ex AN DC-9 Captain who took up ground instructing for RMIT at Essendon (and later Point Cook I think). He was an ex maths/science teacher and I did my CPL, IREX and ATPL subjects with him – and he always had a great story to tell.

Like the DC-9 ‘in flight’ refuelling when they flew from Sydney to Perth – they would plan for Adelaide with correct reserves and immediately ‘divert’ to Perth once airborne.

He also told me about the night Tullamarine opened when he and a FO relocated all the AN DC-9’s from Essendon. The story went that they took off from Essendon on RW26 and landed at MEL on RW34 – and they didn’t retract the gear, did a right turn onto finals and landed. Then they jumped in a taxi and did it over again until they where done.

And then there was the time when he did the high weight flapless landing at MEL – there was dreadful banging coming from somewhere (an inspection door from memory).

The difficulty in getting new pilots not to over flair the DC-9 was another favourite subject – it was apparently easy to drive the main gear into the runway with an over zealous flair.

Alan apparently made his way through the DC fleet – 3, 4 and 6. He told us about the broomstick he used to ‘fly’ the autopilot from the jump seat of the DC-6 – the two front seats were by far the most comfortable in the cockpit and the Captain and FO were not going to get out of them even when they were asleep while the aircraft was droning over the Bight.

I cannot verify any of these stories – but they kept me and my classmates amused at the time. And he is such a nice guy.

Cheers

Pedota

[Wiley]

Pedota, I can confirm one of your tales - the 'roll on' technique used to land the -9 (by AN at least). A mini flare when you figured it was right, then a smooth but positive push forward of the yoke to oooozzze the mains on (if you got it right!!).

It's been said a half dozen times already on this thread, but from a pilot's point of view at least, it really was the creme de la creme of airliners.

In retrospect, (as I'm about to go to bed to rest before a 14 hour fight), one of the really good things about the -9 was its lack of endurance. It was like a wind up toy - you filled her up with Avtur and went like hell to get back on the ground before the spring wound down, which even with full tanks, would be no longer than 4 hours later. Bliss!

This lack of endurance, (along with the Sydney curfew), usually ensured -9 crews of gentlemen's hours, (unless you were trekking in the dead of night up the north west coast of WA).

I have to admit though that the lack of endurance made for some... shall we say *put hairs on your chest* do I divert or don't I decision making, especially on the evening milk run between BNE and CNS when the Queensland weather was not at its best and at Rockie and Mackay at least, non precision approaches the only option you had to get in.

I recall doing that trip one night with one of the most senior Sydney-based hosties in the company as the senior FA. To say she was a hard-bitten old boiler (thanks for that, Sir Reg) would be the understatement of all time. (I'm told she had the franchise for the lemon all the Sydney girls sucked each day at sign on.:):)) We made it in to Mackay, breaking visual right on the minima after being shaken like a small toy from TOPD with 100 lbs above min divert fuel, and the rain that was coming down as we taxied in was almost a solid sheet of water.

She stuck her head into the cockpit as we turned off the runway and said "I will never again say that you guys are overpaid."

Of course she did.

[Eastwest Loco]

mocpac

I think you will find the "specials" into NW Tas were under 284* and close number series. ie: TN2840/TN2841 etc. They became TN973/TN974 etc.

By the time I got a handle on to things you must have been onto noiser things like the 2 and 3 holers.

Ray Stone and Duddles Bellchambers are still about as is Laurie McGuire and I see the regularly. Darrel Maney who was Manager TN DPO sadly passed away late last year. He never got over the loss of his lovely wife Bevseveral years before. So is Leon (coogee bear) Collins, and Rod Elliot has a couple of high class gift shops called the Elliott Collection in Fitzroy and I think Essendon.

Thanks Al - excellent pics - but I am a Victorian by birth.

Nobody's perfect:}

Least of all me.

Best all

EWL

[By George]

Pedota, That story about re-planning in the air is true. Today it is now standard procedure, up here we call it 'Re-dispatch', we often leave the west coast of Obama Land without the 'normal' fuel required and re-calculate on route. At home in Aus it was 'variable reserve', up here it's 'contingency fuel' and is re-calculated to make east coast of Asia. At least it keeps us awake trying to work out if we can make it or not. On the other topic about changing to the 737, Ansett flew both the 200 and the 300 at the same time which kept ones brain working, always suprised me the Dept of Changing Names allowed that.

[James4th]

It was called the Diesel 9 because one of the TAA skipper's little son couldnt manage DeeCeeNine and called it the desilnine..... the rest is history. It was also called "the crowbar" .........

Yes I did 3, 4, 9 and B717 (or as I prefer to call it MD95 EFD qv) If you loved the nine you would go orgasmic over the 71.

The best day of my life was coming home after 10 years away on the A320 back to the Nine (B717). And flying out of Bay 4 in what was the old TAA finger. Talk about deja vu!

After over 10,000 hrs on the airframe (DC9 and 717) I would swap any aircraft to go back to the Nine again.

God Bless Her and all that flew Her. (wipes tears from eyes.......)

I havnt had time to read all the pages yet; but 22 pages??? How cool is that? They were indeed good days.

[mocpac]

Eastwest

Yep, you're right ...I was referring however to jet specials, not the F27s. If memory serves me well, the 2830 series were adhoc addcaps for Burnie and the 2840s for Devonport.

[Givelda]

Here are a couple of Mc Donnell Douglas publicity photos I have, of aircraft that didn't make it into TAA.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3447/3307449179_358fcf38b5.jpg?v=0

I guess the DC-10 was their answer to the TAA wide body requirement, but I doubt that it was seriously considered as it was too big. As it was, the A300 may have also been a bit much at the time of it's introduction, as I can well recall (at least in BNE) having DC-9 and B 727 flights cancelled just to fill the thing up with a reasonable load. Of course Ansett with the addition of the B737-200 at the same time while delaying their widebody introduction, was able to offer frequency and it did not take the "punters" long to figure out which was better!!!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3429/3308278990_c6089f8b62.jpg?v=0

The MD 80 was a contender as a replacement for the DC-9 and the B 727 according to a copy of the 1980-81 Annual Report I have. Other contenders according to the report, were the B737-300, A320, "McDonnell Douglas/Fokker MDF 100 (guess that was someting that at the time McD and Fokker were into) and the Boeing 7-7. Eventually, the 737-300 came in 1986 as TAA soldiered on with 9 upgraded DC-9's and the A300's and 727's.
I can recall seeing a demonstrator MD-80 down at Tulla sometime around 1980, being shown to Ansett and TAA.

[Al E. Vator]

Great photos there Givelda...anybody got some more interesting shots?
Sure brings back those old days!

[Aye Ess]

http://i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss350/aye_ess/AnsettDC9.jpghttp://i590.photobucket.com/albums/ss350/aye_ess/TaaDc9.jpg

[RampDog]

I've got some images of that Super 80 that visited in 1981 with Apollo 12 astronaut Charles "Pete" Conrad in command. He was MDC's Public Relations & Marketing Director, I believe. Also the farewell photos of VH CZA in 1982.

Pictures by rampdoggie - Photobucket (http://photobucket.com/rampdog_on_pprune)

Link updated 25/02/09

PS More to come, when I get the time :ok:

[Eastwest Loco]

Givelda

The DC10, A300 and Lockheed L1011 were all in the mix at the time - around 1975.

I was on Dog Watch alone at TN MEL res one night and got a call from a jet lagged and well oiled (bourbon or similar) Septic from the Lockheed Corporation who decided that I was the only TN staff member he could find, he would do his sales pitch on me. I was tempted to buy half a dozen!

The Franco German Brit won the day, and was a wise move, as 3 mills are much less profitable on shorthaul. The TN fleet of A300s found a good home on the most part at Fedex, and I saw a few of the old ladies there at LAX on the apron looking rather well cared for in freighter rig.

I have a few nice relics in my commercial aeroplane collection of the same ilk. A Saab SF340 in the old blue and gold stripe East West strip, an F28-1000 in an ersatz Fokker livery which is simply MMA rebadged and of course a beautiful F28-4000 model of EWA. All are solid resin and so much better than the other 50 plus. One Woomera has visited and can attest to the size of the ever growing collection. Right down to the spare QFlink Q400 with the new design tail - the Dogs Dick with new tail and regular with old tail are on display.

I need a bigger office.

You can take the boy out of the airline but ........................

The 727 and DC9 along with the F27 and F28 were all a part of the best times of most of our lives, and we will never forget them. The roar of a departing 9 is something stamped on my memory. Ohhhh - crackles.

Screw the environmentalists - bring back the pure JT8D series.

Best all

EWL

[Pedota]

And another thing . . . has anyone else noticed resemblance between the D-9 and the Space Shuttle when viewed from the front quarter?

[Givelda]

EWL,

That would have been an interesting phone call to Mr McKenzie -"Excuse me Sir, pax loads look about to exceed 4 million for the year and by the way, I got a good deal late last night on the L1011's you were looking at and I have ordered 6 on the board's behalf!!!!"

I guess not all that long before, res was a manual process before we switched to the TAARSAN system. Amazing how track was kept of all those bookings and requests.

The indroduction of the A380 in 1980 just happened to occur at the same time as a global slowdown - sound familiar - and therefore I guess you were aware of just how much the load growth was dropping about then. As my seniority number at the time was 594 out of a total of 605 pilots I was for a while, somewhat nervous about my longterm prospects with TAA if the market got even worse. However, during the many months of seemingly perpetual Reserve Rosters, myself and the other "one" bar FO's found that our squash/ golf/ etc games improved immeasurably with lots of practice - until 4.00 PM on those days we were on reserve - when we would call Rostering to be "Released" so that we could drop down to the Brekky Creek for some thirsty XXXX "product quality testing".

In the end the A300 became a favourite with QANTAS Business class passengers being that litlle bit bigger than the 767's.

And being somewhat of a "collector" myself, I would love to see your model collection.

Back to the DC9...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3563/3309954165_195860dd91.jpg?v=0

This was taken at Port Hedland in January 86. Of course there had been much ado about granting TAA access to Westen Australia!! Being Brisbane based, I believe the MEL guys normally did this pattern, so I only did this trip once. Seem to remember that the weather on the first leg from DRW was typical summer - so lots of diverting around some impressive Cbs. In itself no big deal, but the -9 never was blessed with much fuel as has previously been mentioned - I think max endurance was around 240 mins - so if the weather at the destination was a bit dodgy, it was either overfly or go down for one look only - especially on the long sectors like this one or BNE-ADL, etc. Anyway, as you can see Hedland itself was OK this time.

Also of note, was the airport approved ground service vehicle, all the gound staff in company uniforms with their ASIC cards clearly displayed, working flat out to get the aircraft turned round ASAP and the security officer and security fence at the terminal ...well... maybe not quite yet!!!!

Even today, as the F 50's and the '717 fly overhead my house in Perth, it is easy to be taken back to the days of the F27, the -9 and the -727.

[Stationair8]

Talking of models, I noticed somebody in Australia has gone to the trouble of producing decals for the DC-9 in 1/144th scale. This includes the Ansett DC-9, TAA T-jet, TAA DC-9 Coral Island promotional scheme, the first Australian Airlines and Australian Airlines scheme that appeared on the B727/737.

[Wonderworld]

I was on Dog Watch alone at TN MEL res one night and got a call from a jet lagged and well oiled (bourbon or similar) Septic from the Lockheed Corporation who decided that I was the only TN staff member he could find, he would do his sales pitch on me. I was tempted to buy half a dozen!


That brings back memories. I used to work dogs, also alone at MELRR in the 80's. You often got odd calls in the middle of the night from various corporations who were somewhat surprised that it was the middle of the night here :p

I have loved every bit of this thread as my first jet ride as a kid was an AN DC-9 from BNE to ROK. Great fun. Speaking of aircraft models in the mail today for me was in Inflight 200 model of a TN B727-200 VH-TBR in the Australian colours. It is beautiful and worth every cent. Bugger the lousy exchange rate - some things are too important. :)

[B772]

sixtiesrelic. I have just found some information relating to tyre pressures on the AN DC9. The aircraft were fitted with Dunlop XLP 42 X 15 tyres developed by Dunlop in Melbourne for operations on low strength pavements. The tyre pressure could be reduced to 595 kpa (86 p.s.i) if necessary with a slight reduction in the ramp weight.

The AN B737-200's were fitted with standard 40 X 14 tyres until the Dunlop XLP 42 X 15 with a 24 ply rating was approved for use. The first a/c to be fitted with the Dunlop XLP's was VH-CZW which entered service in May 1982. The tyre pressures could be varied between 595 kpa (86 p.s.i) and 915 kpa (133 p.s.i) There was a metallic chart fitted in the nosewheel bay showing ramp weight versus minimum tyre pressure.

[B772]

Aye Ess. The DC9 depicted in your posting is actually a DC9-20 series as originally ordered by Ansett ANA. There is even reference to the DC9-20 series in the advertisement.

[Aye Ess]

Yes,772,I know of the stumpy DC9,but of interest is the fact that the 'competition' airlines advertise their new aircraft in the same magazine in the same month. Can't see why the travelling public would choose either one over the other.

[B772]

Pedota. Ex Capt Alan W..son would have been referring to the DC9-30 operating ADL-PER and not SYD-PER. AN scheduled the DC9 ADL-PER on a few occasions with a maximum payload of 80 adults and nil freight/mail and obviously full tanks. As the DC9-30 was 10% slower than the B727's the scheduled block time ADL-PER was 3hr 35mins. Assuming there were no requirements on PER, flights were predicated on inflight replanning at KGI which reduced the minimum legal arrival fuel at PER to 35 mins.

The return from PER to ADL was a 'comfortable' 3 hrs.

NB. The last DC9-30 ADL-PER operated in the early 1970's. By this time there were sufficient B727-200's to support the 4 x B727-100's.

[Dog One]

was the cruise speed around 0.76 or faster?

[Eastwest Loco]

Givelda

Lyn McKenzie was a lovely bloke. My dad worked at Fawlty Towers on Franklin on the 4th floor when I worked on 1 in res. He introduced me to him just after I started. Quite often of a morning, this lowly res type would get into the lift, Lyn having boarded in the basement and he would say "Good morning Ron" and I would politely repky "good morning Lyn" and in that short time before the next stop make small talk. It was great when there were some "management trainee" wankers in there, as the sucking in and holding of breath indicated their true use to the Airline.

You are most welcome to visit the collection with a diversion to the RSL any time mate.

I think Lyn would have nearly wet himself laughing if I told him I had ordered half a dozen Tristars the night prior, with options on another 4.

Wonderworld

Ah - yes - "Doggies". The TN MELRR phone number was very close to one of the major Taxi numbers. In the end rather than arguing, we would just say "is that a private house? Be outside in 15 minutes."

Some may still be standing there.

Back to the Deisel.

Does anyone remember the incident in TJJ after a D check when DOA still required a full stall to be performed?

Two senior pikots were aboard with a DOA inspector and they wound up in the nasty corner where the low pressure cone from the wings blanked the horizontal stabs and it took a lot of getting back by brilliant flying to the degree where internal damage was caused within the fin itself. Process dropped after that. Dad was an ex LAME and in account then and he was furious as were most that one of the girls had been hurt by stupid procedures.

Best all

EWL

[Givelda]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3598/3310877411_cf091fbae5.jpg?v=0

There you go Dog One - hope you can make the Mach out. The plan was for .76 although when on the step it could be a little more.....

[dijon moutard]

Quote :Aviator - Australia's Aviation Industry Magazine (http://www.aviatormag.com.au/stories/Jun08_Constable_PC_Plod.html)

"in 1979, a miscreant by the name of Sillery decided to use a firearm to hijack a TAA DC9 enroute from Coolangatta to Brisbane. Sillery desired to go directly to Singapore and not pass ‘Go’ and land at Brisbane for fuel. Sillery did not understand the need for lots of fuel for a nine hour flight to Singapore. He was prevailed upon to land at Brisbane and whilst doing so a hostess, Esme Quassam, filled Sillery up with liquids, soft drinks and soft words. Nature took its course and Sillery asked Esme Quassam to hold his pistol whilst he attended to nature in the toilet. Esme had become his mate. Sillery served a mandatory life sentence for his crime. Esme was given a Star of Courage award as was the captain, Graeme Mackelmann."


cheers
dijon moutard

[john_tullamarine]

Capt Alan W..son

Long time since Al and I have enjoyed a chat .. what, pray tell, is he doing these days ? Still in the Essendon area ?

[B772]

Dog One. The nominal cruise speed of the AN DC9-30 was .76. The cruise speed ADL-PER varied to provide the minimum fuel burn. Head winds were a serious challenge at times so flight planning both prior to and inflight was paramount. From memory there were frequent level changes and the odd track change.

[Dog One]

I guess westbound in winter would test every ones skills in flight planning. Was Kal a viable alternate to refuel? I can't remember the details of the old aerodrome.

[B772]

Dog One. KGI was viable to pick up fuel in the 60s/70s for the DC9. It was less suitable for the B727, especially the B727-200. My B727 'notes' show the comment "Landing ok but it may be necessary to offload payload after picking up fuel due to take-off weight restrictions".

FYI. The closest B747 alternate to PER at the time was MKR even though the published MKR pavement data was DPO/WNY standard.

[sixtiesrelic]

Did you TAA blokes have one of these wonderful mechanical DC-9 electrics boards in the ground school.
This was a marvel of science.
You could flick switches on the sample overhead panel and relays would open or close and the lines of electrical paths would illuminate to show the dunces how the electrics worked.
I thought it was rather good, as I had trouble imagining how systems worked with static black and white drawings where three way switches and valves were depicted in one position.
Now we have computers, diagrams are easily portrayed in all configurations.
I have a better photo of this thing, but I think it’s amongst a thousand loose photos that are going to be sorted “one day”.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g32/sixtiesrelic/DC9elect.jpg

[BPA]

The above picture looks more like the panel for B737. You can see the wheel well APU shut off, bottom left, plus the fire test panel and the electric panel looks like the 737's

[ACMS]

Yep that's a 737-300 panel

[sixtiesrelic]

Mmmm,
Now doesn't THAT go to prove I was a dunce.
The lights in the panel are a bit of a giveaway, BUT I think it would be the 200 as we did our ground school on that and just did a bit of a differences course for the 300 if I remember right.
'Tis a long time ago... like more'n twenty five years.

[Aye Ess]

However,Sixierelic,yes we TAA (the friendly way) blokes did have the magic electric board. Had forgotten about it. Quite clever really. I guess it ended it's life at the dump as land fill. Please,Sixtierelic,make it today that you sort through your old photos,I have a feeling that you have a wealth of memorabilia that we all would love to see.

[sixtiesrelic]

Ah! Aye Ess, findin' the time. There's boxes of the buggers.
Too many projects.
Most pressing is sucking the memories from the brains of the B4s in PNG. They're in their nineties and I'm making a concerted effort at present to visit them and identify faces from my parent's and uncle's photos and colour movies of pre-war Guinea Airways.
Hopefully I can find descendants and let them see old grandad when he was a young bloke.
Some great stuff from those files like this sixteen or seventeen year old "cadet". (no licence... they were for starting the engines with a crank handle and releiving the pilot on long flights).
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g32/sixtiesrelic/Copyofjunkpilot.jpg
Wouldn't the rellies be stoked to see this?

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g32/sixtiesrelic/ju31.jpg
or this?

[maui]

Sixtiesrelic

The magical board (TAA) of which you speak, as I remember, was designed and built by the Electrics Ground Instructor Bob Aiken. Such was the caliber of the instructional team.:ok:
Same bloke designed and built his own fixed base sim, at home, largely using u/s parts retrieved from the bins.
Remember this was in the days before PC's, remarkable.

And to top it off, he could teach.

Maui

[sixtiesrelic]

There's a pilot from the same team, same era who did the same.
Got most parts from army disposals.
I'll ask him if he was sharing ideas with Bob.

[PLovett]

On an earlier page EastWest Loco recounts an incident where a Diesel 9 was actually stalled to placate employees of the Dept of Moving Deckchairs.

It reminded me of a story from the same era that I have always wondered whether it was true or apocrophyl. Perhaps someone here may know or is it from the same incident?

A crew were doing some training which involved approaching the stall but recovering prior to the stickshaker. The story goes that the stickshaker was not properly calibrated (or some such) and the aircraft actually stalled. This supposedly caused the galley lockers to unlatch spilling their contents the length and breadth of the cabin.

This was, of course, prior to the plastic abominations that are currently used and so much breakage ensued. It was reported that the crew landed and handed the aircraft over to the ground staff and as they walked away the sounds of much wailing and gnashing of teeth was heard with nasty 4 letter words such as "damn" and "blast".

If not true it should be.

[Animalclub]

dijon moutard

TAA DC9 enroute from Coolangatta to Brisbane

Please take into account that I'm getting on in years but... I understood that Captain Dinny Lawrence was involved in a hijack from OOL airport in a Viscount aircraft. Did I mis-hear or has there been two hijacks at Coolangatta?

[dijon moutard]

Dear animalclub
i am just relating stories from fathers generation who joined (circa 1954) at TAA .

Most of that generation saw initial service with the RFDS(seconded to them by TAA) or the Northern Territory Aeromedical Service or PNG.
My father was Captain John Charles Humphreys (BN/ then Charleville/Darwin/BN/ML BASE) who flew DC-3/DC-4/Viscount (700/800) /DC-9/B727/A300.

the DC-9 was my father's initial jet command which they all enjoyed flying !

cheers
dijon moutard

[Aye Ess]

Sorry folks,not strictly DC9 stuff,but Animalclub is awaiting a reply. The only other hijacking that comes to mind is the TAA Electra VH-TLB, SY-BN,19/7/1960. The hijack was reported as the first in the world(another TAA first!). The guy had a bomb & actually fired a shot from a firearm. Story at TAA Skyjack (http://www.taamuseum.org.au/TaaSkyjack.htm) Dinny Lawrence was a deadheading captain on board who wacked the hijacker on the head with the crash axe. Ahh,crash axes.....is there anything they can't do?

[chimbu]

AnimalClub,

There were two separate incidents:

The first in the early 60's involved Tom Bennett, Dinny Lawrence on an Electra SYD- BNE;

The second in 79 involved Macca and the Diesel OOL- BNE.

Both ended peacefully, perp arrested and bravery awards for two very courageous TAA pilots.

[HANOI]

Animal Club

Yupela blary lapun tru na !!!.

[Flyspray]

If my memory serves me well the incident was in the Mangalore area and quite high up. The aircraft approached the stall and then flicked. The crew down the back waiting their turn were the ones that packed it.
Some discussion ensued about leading edge damage causing the flick.
For those with long memories don't forget the funny tales of crew disappearing during flight by climbing into the E& E compartment under the Capt. seat.
No doubt we were at our highest standard while commanding this aircraft even though the yanks said "If you open the throttles and the horn don't blow....you go"

[sixtiesrelic]

Wasn't Johnny Benton involved in some sort of hijack?
I thought I was told this at the old TAA museum by one of the blokes there.


OK readers.... I've read the article after I wrote th eabove.
I'd always wondered why Benton went behind a desk.
I remember when he, Frank Ball and Winch were line pilots in Brisbane.

[Wiley]

The hijack was reported as the first in the world (another TAA first!).I think the Cathay lads might take you to task on that claim, Aye Ess. A Cathay Catalina was hijacked in (I think it was) 1946 for the gold bars it was carrying. Not sure if it was airborne or not when hijacked, (it ended up on HK harbour), so you might still be able to lay claim to the "first airborne" hijacking.

An old colleague of mine here in the Sandpit, Karem Sellian, claims he was the first pilot to be hijacked in the Middle East. He was hijacked by a lone gunman while a captain with Egypt Air, flying the Russian equivalent of the F27 in (I think) around 1964.

Hijacking wasn't even on the horizon in those days, and the company's first reaction when he didn’t arrive at his destination was to think he'd stolen the aeroplane! They sent the police around to his house to arrest his wife, and it wasn't until the hijacker let him make a phone call from wherever it was he'd been forced to land that it even occurred to them that he was being held under duress.

[Pole Vaulter]

Ansett also had an attempted hijack on the L188 SYD BNE. Capt Jimmy (fingers) Farrell was the Capt. Hijacker wanted to go to Indonesia. I think he ended up with a bump on the head from the fire axe.

[Wiley]

And another AN one was when Ralph Young's F27 was hijacked at Alice Springs (early 70s?) and the bloke wanted to fly off into the desert until the aircraft ran out of fuel so he (and everyone else on board) could die.

An Ansett first? - the first would-be suicide hijacker?

The Federal Police obliged him by shooting him as he 'resisted arrest'.

[sixtiesrelic]

Fire axes ... used for all sorts of things.
I was told a story that some pilots, getting really p*ssed off with having to submit to security checks removed the axe from the aircraft and put it in their nav bags.
Went through security before flight.
Gorillas went into action refusing to allow the offensive weapon aboard.
Pilots sat down and said, "Plane can't go without it... give it back"
Tea 'n bickis for a couple of brave inventive coves.
Good on'em.

[Capt Claret]

Didn't some miscreant parachute from an Australian airliner some where out the back of beyond?

[Stationair8]

No that happened in the USA from a B727 during the sixties.

The gentleman exited the B727 via the rear air stairs and parchuted to freedom. Mr D B Cooper was never found, nor the money from the bank robbery and the airstairs on B727 was modified to prevent opening in flight and the modification was called the DB Cooper vane.

The story has been in a number of aviation magazines and also a police show about US criminals that are still on the run.

Perhaps Mr Cooper was part of the SkyAir world team?

[sixtiesrelic]

Stationaie8 do we work together? Mad Mat was talking about this very thing today.

[TechCons]

Minor thread drift (but still vaguguely relevant!) - does anybody have any info of what became of Keith Matner, DC9 Captain with TAA in the late 70's and through the 80's? I was a LAME at 'Ta Ta's' during that period and used to maintain and fly his Grob G109 motor glider which he kept out at Romsey. Was just interested to know what he's doing now - if he's still around? ...... thanks

[Eastwest Loco]

Ahhhh - Crash Axes

I do recall a TN/AN Pilot strike where our EW Pilots had elected to keep flying in the mid eighties.

No TN traffic service was provided in MEL, so I flew over to do LOCO/Traffic.

We were warned that there could be on tarmac action, as there had been some assaults and phone calls to Pilot's homes just after they departed for the day at work (And there were a few incidents around bay 5 that shall not be expanded on) so we taxiied in with no1 shut down, the forward hatch open (Shagger Howell at the helm) with the FO armed with the crash axe and me armed with that nasty red thinggy you used to cleat the ailerons.

It was an interesting couple of days. Very long ones too.

No help whatsoever from TN, but it didn't matter, We got there quite well, with FA's chucking bags on their days off . The crash axe is a wonderful business card though. It identifies you and your intentions without a single word!!

It is amazing what a bloke can to to the TN consolidated plan left alone in Gate 9 with nobody around and a programmers sign-in:D:E:ok:

Best all

EWL

[James4th]

I believe Keith Mattner still lives in Sunbury.

Glitchfield; was it Bumptious or PG you had as F/O on that Carrier approach in the Straights of Buka?

I have read all the pages now and it has brought back so many memories:- I came out of the wilds of NG after 3 years on the DC3 and straight on to the DC9. It was much against a lot of advice but when you are 25 ........... Eddie Clark did my check to line ML-SY-BN-SY-ML, he flew 3 and I flew one! I must have impressed him- he let me loose.

I later flew with "Red Leader" into CBR when he showed me what the diesel could do with 40 flap AND the speed brakes, Jeez he could fly! I wish those gentlemen were still around.

Geoff Lushy where are you? The little seedlings you gave me in 1972 when I moved onto my little farm are now 50' giants.

Remember the "practice" DMA arrivals at Gove? 340 kts over the "tower" at 600 ft then pulling up over the town, flinging out all the bits and landing to a thunderous ovation from the pax. The bloke in the "tower" (FSU) with his binoculars out on the veranda jumping up and down. How did we get away with it?

Green Island arrivals and departures out of CNS?

To all the gentlemen, (you know who you are) who trained and checked me, put up with my bad jokes and my falling asleep in the cockpit. Put up with my lazy ways when I was an F/O; I just want to tell you I turned out alright and I salute you all. God Bless you and the diesel .......

Just before I go, a story:- During the '90s I returned to OZ on leave from my exile in the desert and went to the Essendon airshow where the was a DC9 from IPEC on show. I was with my 14 year old son (now an A300 F/O in another outpost of Empire) and we walked around the girl for old times sake. I almost made it. But by the time I reached the port wheel assembly I couldnt take it any more and bawled my eyes out for a few minutes.

My son was very embarrassed but he understood and when I said to him
"You see what Aviation has done to me ...... you still want to be a pilot?"

His answer was a resounding yes. What a foolish Band of Brothers we were in those days .........

[Captain Sherm]

Hope Keith Mattner's still enjoying life. A particularly nice guy.

While living in Korea I often reflected on the skippers I learned from who had learned their trade flying RAAF Meteors out of Kimpo and of course Noel Knappstein who flew RAN Sea Furies (and I believe was shot down over Bangwa Island near Kimpo. One melancholy Sunday morning I looked up telstra.com and found Lushey and Knappsteins phone numbers and rang them up in turn for a chat.

Not sure between those two and Guggenheimer who could fly that -9 through the smallest eye of a needle or faster and closer than anyone else. Be a photo finish! Were illegal tactics allowed Ian Smith would win of course! Is he still around?

As I write this I reflect on dear old Peter Muggleton who did my line training on the -9. When he first said, somewhere over BIK that we'd cross SY NDB at 310 and get in I thought he was joking. Pete later that night bought 12 full size bottles of beer for a 36 hour layover in Cairns and when I told him I didn't drink he looked puzzled and said "They're for me son, get your own".

Good though Peter was he didn't quite give me the hang of landing the-9 properly in the first few sectors. (I'd learned in the dark in HNL). That gift was given by Ivan Scown over a few minutes walk and talk through the Tulla terminal. Another gentleman.

Then....there was ted Munro who taught me all there was to know about my beloved 727. Do such men walk those terminals today?

Safe flying

Sherm

[Stationair8]

Comuing back to an earlier post, did TAA/Australian do any command upgrades on the DC-9 during the last few years of operation?

Did TAA/Australian do the Ipec Aviation training when they introduced the DC-9 Freighter?

[john_tullamarine]

Did TAA/Australian do the Ipec Aviation training when they introduced the DC-9 Freighter?

Yes. I can still clearly recall the grand old man's having a few worries in the first bits of the sim package .. then, an epiphany ! He came out of the first session with some standby power work with a light trip to the step and the typical grin from ear to ear beneath the beard .. "Mate .. it flies just like a real aeroplane without all that other s*** !" He went on to acquire quite a reputation for his ability to paint the 9 onto the runway at the end of each sector. Guess I'll never finish that DC3 endorsement with him with so many years now having passed ...

After a period under Ta-Taa's tutelage, IPEC took over check and training responsibilities. That was during Dennis C's time at the helm.

The only regret I have ... too long on the Goose (but that's another story) and didn't get to have a pole of the 9.

[Capt Claret]

Hey Sherm,

Would you care to share the "walk and talk"? I used to think the DH8 was the worst aircraft to land nicely, then after 6 years on the 146 which was a breeze, along came the 717.

Bloody great aeroplane to fly, but damned challenging to land nicely. :{

[teresa green]

Glitchfield has written a excellent book, (so good my son has made off with it and lost it up the track somewhere) and I will have to get another, so I suggest you send him a email and get a copy, it is great reading (no I am not his agent)! Glitchfield was a legend in TAA (for plenty of reasons)! but his flying ability was one of them.

[teresa green]

James the 4th around what time did you spend in New Guinea. Where you there around the same time as "greasy" 'argus" and "kauso" "digger" and the rest of the bast#rds?

[James4th]

Teresa, I was there 68-71 as an F/O in Madang. Flew with Greasy and the other old bastards, Argus left as I joined. A great time was had by all A?

[sixtiesrelic]

Ah! Jimmy the fourth, I was there for your last two years but with the other mob.
What comes glaringly through with this thread and some others from the older generation is the humility.
We looked up to the old boys and wanted to learn from 'em.
I hear today, that quality isn't as prominent.
"I've got a degree" seems to abound amongst a good percentage of the "boys".
I guess it stems from Keating keeping kids at school and going on to uni as the norm.
The dills who are too afraid to go out into the world remain in the cloisters and study normal people to make up courses on how to get on with each other, or how to do what comes naturally most people.
Gawd, equity and diversity courses we are forced to endure at work and Occupational Health & Safety... Who's gunna stick an electric drill up his nose and pull the trigger?
Talk to tradesmen and they don't want eighteen year old apprentices because they know it all.
Fourteen year olds are more ready to listen and learn though.
I have talked to a number of our old cronies and found that probably seventy five percent of us thought we were in the bottom ten percent of the staff;
we were sort of frauds and somehow MANAGED to scrape through checks.
Felt guilty at not knowing and remembering enough and having to swot before checks.
Yet later on some find blokes saying, "I looked up to you".
Hell I wonder if these poor buggers who are taught to let the auto pilot FMC do it all will have these discussions.
The engineers won!
Computers are doin' it all AND there's no dog needed because the pilots are educated.

[PLovett]

sixtiesrelic, I would have agreed with you until the recent "Hudson River 1 Arrival" has shown that real pilots are still needed.

Now please, more diesel stories because I cannot tell you how much I am enjoying this thread.:ok:

[Aye Ess]

If I had to choose the least favoured job for the FO,it would have to be the internal tail inspection. For those dear readers who are not familiar with DC9 ops; on the first flight of the day,the FO had to enter the tail via the drawbridge, that was the pull down ceiling above the rear ventral stairs. Inside the tail it was dark(no windows),hot(outside the airconditioned area) & NOISY( shared space with the APU). We had to check emergency slide pressure,enough tape left on the crash recorders & any suspicious devices which may have been hidden aboard. We were a nuisance to catering who couldn't come up the back stairs,cleaners who couldn't leave by the backstairs & flight attendants because we were holding everything up.

[TechCons]

...... and while we're down the back end of the aircraft - if the aft cabin door was opened and latched back onto it's restraint catch on the outside of the toilet wall, you could not then open the toilet door. One of the apprentices on my shift was trapped in the bog for about 3 hours in the hangar one night shift because everyone had finished on the aircraft and then buggered off :D

[teresa green]

Sixties relic, I think we were privileged to fly with Captains that were of the old school, often blokes who served in the Second World War, some had been POWs, most were interesting, some plain frightening, to us young blokes, they were walking,talking enigmas, never quite sure which way they were going to jump, but jesuuus could they fly. I well remember one bloke who took me to the end of the runway at Wabag, showed me the drop, showed me the aircraft that had gone over the edge, (for those who don't know the area, the runway is set in the side of a mountain, and if you run out of runway and ideas, the drop is about 5,000 ft straight down, sure you can glide down into the Baiyer River area but it would not pretty) and then proceeded to berate me on the young pilots TAA had the hide to send to New Guinea, who were basically as useless as tits on a bull, (and I obviously was one of them) and was no doubt the cause of the aircraft lying in a crumpled heap at the bottom, and then proceeded to give me the leg! Never have I been so relieved to reach rotate in my life as the DC3 staggered into the air (she was fully laden with cargo, and police boys) and you know I often think about these things, and listen to two of my kids who both fly (one QF one JQ) and listen to their complaints and have a look at their manuals, and think they don't know they are alive, its all so bloody easy, no Captain is going to make them look over a bloody cliff and basically threaten them, but you know what, I wouldn't swap with them, no way, they will never fly anything as mean, bitchy and beautiful as the 9, they will only ever fly well behaved aircraft with hubcaps, and you talk about humility in our ranks, I think most of us were plain scared, more of the Captains than the aircraft, and it did us no harm at all, and as for higher learning, sh%t what was that, as long as you had your leaving certificate and add 2 plus 2, it was all about your ability to "become one with the aircraft" as my dear old flying instructor used to say, no uni degree will ever take the place of plain good old Airmanship (as was proved by the excellent result on the A320 in the Hudson River) as was previously posted, nah, we were priviliged, and if you look at the amazing safety record both in Australia and New Guinea, we must have done something right, in fact we should be all proud of what we achieved, and top marks to the brilliant Engineers, who kept us flying, their job was not easy, especially in New Guinea, where they would often work thru torential rain (no cushy hangers there) to have the beasts ready to fly next morning, add to that our best mates, the cabin crew, always great company, great humour in all situations, and you could always rely on them to do their job, especially safety wise, and it is beyond me that QF still basically separate pilots and cabin crew with separate hotels and crew buses, it used to embarrass me, I was never quite sure who had the social disease, us or them, but it was never practised in TAA, thankfully, the crew was the crew, good mates all.

[Wiley]

It’s interesting (and illuminating) to see here people with some serious experience under their belts reminiscing about the days before they got onto the -9. An outsider might put it another way: “It’s interesting to see who were the people who flew the -9 and where they came from.”

As one who, being ex-military, cannot claim to have gone through it myself, (so no self-congratulations involved here), I believe the Australian GA system, produced quite possibly the finest "product" for airlines possible - a far better all round operator than any of today's cadet schemes could ever hope to produce. GA was (and I suspect still is) a self-culling system which got rid of most (I accept, only "most") of the dross before the pilot presented himself to an airline.

I base this opinion on having trained quite a few of them and flown with many more, both as their FO and their captain.

I think the current system favoured by many of the world's airlines, (conceived originally by BA?), of training their pilots from scratch "so they won't learn any bad habits" before they join the airline is misconceived in the extreme. You end up with a pilot who's very good at what he does, (in a very narrow field), but with virtually no experience in aviation of anything else, so that the very first time he gets a really bad fright and has to deal with it, he may have 350+ people immediately behind him and in his care.

A pilot with 1500 hours or more in GA under his belt before he starts in an airline - (particularly, in my opinion, those who gained some of that experience in PNG) - had dealt with myriad situations, the odd one laced with pure terror, and made decisions no cadet would ever be likely to see.

As I’ve already mentioned, today's ex-cadets are good at their jobs, I'll not argue with that, but if one day something totally out of left field presents itself, (like the recent "Hudson River One" STAR), I wonder who the pax down the back would prefer to have up front? A pilot of the old school who’s had a few frights and dealt with a few unusual situations in a 206 in the New Guinea Highlands or their equivalent, or one of the increasingly large proportion of airline captains of today who’ve been trained from Day One to engage the autopilot at 200’ on takeoff and to leave it in until 200’ on finals?

Indeed some airlines (my current employer for one) insist that the highest available level of automation be used at all times on the line – (the direct antithesis of Ernie Gann’s captain from ‘Fate is the Hunter’ who lit matches under his FO’s chin as the FO flew an instrument approach in trying conditions). The letter announcing this policy contained the unforgettable phrase: “...the line is no place to practise your flying skills”. My immediate question on reading this was: “Well where else am I going to do it?”

I’m not advocating we light matches under our FOs’ chins, but some of the stories I’ve read on this thread of the things we learned from those old, sometimes irascible ‘old time’ captains who we still highly esteem to this day make me wonder if we might be doing the next generation of aviators no favours with what has become the norm in Aviation today.

[Stationair8]

Couldn't do those things today as OH&S people would require to have a safety jacket, special boots with non slip souls, a safety fence 30 metres back from the drop, special signage and least 101 other things plus a manual to cover possible scenarios!!!!

It must have a been a bloody big step to go from the DC-3 to the 9, bit like trying to take a drink out of a fire hydrant!!!

[sixtiesrelic]

Well Treesa I think we have to look further back to compare the olden days with now.
The reason we were afraid, or was it “fearful respect” of the Captain, was taught to us from infanthood.
We didn’t call an adult male anything other than mister or uncle. (I called the old man’s bosses Captain, like Captain Dowey and Captain Chapman).
The CANE; we all copped it for infractions at school and the belt wielded at home.
Oh yes! We hear the stories of the brutal teachers and drunken fathers givin’ the kids “the Fridee night beltin’ for what the kids hadn’t been caught doing durin’ the week”, but like the cops takin’ kids behind the cop shop and givin’ them a beltin’ with their great big police belt, I never met any of those victims or cop any unjust punishment.
The squibs who couldn’t cop the pain or more likely the embarrassment, made sure they were good all the time.
The warriors knew the outcome for being half smart and took the risk and then showed the class their bravery by not “Pullin’ back” as the cane descended or doing “the hand flicking dance” after the cuts and strolled back to their desk showing no pain.
We were taught respect not today’s “You got rights”.
Now the silly buggers show their warriorhood in their cars or bashing enemies on their computer games
It all started with women getting more say!
They said, ”You’re not hurting MY boy” just like all the black mothers have done for millions of years.
The warriors told the women to shut up and the poor little darlins’ went happily off with the men to be terrorised and hurt, coming out the other end as a warrior.
(Those long houses we flew over were the “pinnacle of civilisation”… Blokes and tough boys in one house; women, babies, pigs, girls and squibs in the other one.)
Women… don’t want anyone hurtin’ their boy who is exempt from “the trials”, so he doesn’t have to prove his manhood but WANT a warrior for a protective husband for themselves and their daughters…HAAA!
Women don’t see the same old invisible bullyin’ going on, amongst kids today as has always happened. Respect is what all kids expect from the younger ones AND they get it.
Gees! We jumped off bloody high bridges, crapping ourselves before hand, to show we deserved the respect of the older kids.
Did it many times and learned to hold ya’ nose, ‘n cross ya’ legs. Learned by experiencing the pain.
Now there’s signs and high fences like Stationair8 mentions. WE’LL know the nose and legs bit when we leap out of the top door in a ditched Jumbo. Have to pull the heads of the shriekers out of the water after we land and save ‘em won’t we.
The rapid rise that occurred with Virgin and maybe Jetstar has me reeling.
I know an aged F.O. (got in much too late). He told me a story about the FMC coming up with three obviously wrong, top of Descent points when he punched in the numbers.
He said, “Ah bugger this, I’ll go down at three times my height plus… ah… seven miles for this tail wind”.
Captain; young, possibly was a Nevergo Captain before hitting the bigtime. Asked him to explain.
After digesting the information he got out his little book and wrote the formula down.
THAT’S what’s missing now. The old‘n bold, passing the rat cunning onto the younger blokes.
Older blokes can do great big sums in their heads... got the cane for getting’ four outa ten in mental arithmetic tests.
Don’t need a mobile phone to calculate the wattage available at a power point for theatre lights.
240 X 10. I couldn’t believe THAT when I saw it. Three uni students all headed for the phone to use the calculator.
I’m not saying for a moment ALL younger people. The percentage is aweful bloody high tho.

As for going from a DC-3 to the 9…
Mate I salute you.
That was one hell of a step.
I was struggling from the 3 to the Friendship and again F27 to the DC-9.