L@ser attacks on Aircraft

[Legalapproach]

At Snaresbrook Crown Court on the 15th May HH Judge Tudor Owen sentenced ech of two defendants who had pleaded guilty to recklessly endangering the safety of an aircraft by shining a green laser light into the cockpit of a police helicopter to 6 months imprisonment

Captain Brian Baldwin, the chief pilot of the Metropolitan Police Air Support Unit since 1997 told the court that the frequency of lasers being used against their helicopters is doubling each year so that there are now up to 15 incidents each month. In his opinion the increase in recent years is in direct proportion to the reduction in size, cost and increase in availability of such devices. He described the effect of shining such a device into the cockpit of a helicopter at night and gave his opinion that “..it is only through chance that we have not had a serious incident or accident from the increasing incidence of laser lights being used against police helicopters”.

Judge Owen told the two men
“The potentially catastrophic consequences of endangering an aircraft in flight are so obvious they do not need to be spelled out and when an aircraft is flying over a densely populated area the consequences may be even more serious.

As frequently seen in cases before this and other courts, police helicopters do invaluable work protecting the community and combating crime. That includes, for example, searching for and helping to apprehend suspects, assisting with firearms incidents, public order incidents and counter terrorism operations. The crews are entitled to be protected from the likes of you who are, as I have said, a dangerous menace.

The message should go out that people who target helicopters in this idiotic and dangerous way should expect to receive custodial sentences.”

[torquewrench]

"The message should go out that people who target helicopters in this idiotic and dangerous way should expect to receive custodial sentences.”
Hear, hear.

Would that there were more people with the evident good sense of the honorable Judge.

The laser blinding issue received an airing in the NYT's house blog today, (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/21/australia-takes-on-laser-lunatics/?scp=2-b&sq=lasers&st=nyt) and to judge by the tenor of the comments, the seriousness of this issue continues to be lost on the general public.

Of course, if there is eventually an outcome wherein metal is bent and bodies are broken, there will be a vitriolic public outcry that someone should have done something about the problem sooner.

[cwatters]

Two and a half years for this man..
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=69852

[Bronx]

cwatters Two and a half years for this man..


That Australian case was posted in the Rotorheads forum. The sentence was for a string of firearm offenses as well as "prejudicing the safe operation of an aircraft."

Let's hope courts in all countries start taking a serious line.
Gotta be the way to go. :ok:


B.

[christep]

At Snaresbrook Crown Court on the 15th May HH Judge Tudor Owen sentenced ech of two defendants who had pleaded guilty to recklessly endangering the safety of an aircraft by shining a green laser light into the cockpit of a police helicopter to 6 months imprisonmentThere's hope for the UK legal system yet - sometimes there couldn't be a better man (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=295673) for the job.

[Che Guevara]

Link below from the Middle East forum is interesting, same problem...lets see what happens to these imbiciles.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=325957

[mustpost]

"Laser beam 'dazzles' pilot preparing to land at airport"

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/latestnews/Laser-beam-dazzles-pilot-preparing.4183538.jp

Any updates on this one?

[Ashling]

This has happened at quite a few places recently and to me personaly twice in the last 6 months. Thankfully the laser was far enough away and comeing from a bit off center so I never had it shine straight into my eyes. For me it was an annoyance rather than a danger.

That said some of these devices are pretty powerfull and have the potential if used correctly to cause real damage. I think a police helicopter driver had his vision impaired by one of these lasers. It beggars belief that people are this dum and think its a lark, bit like putting rubble on a railway line to see what happens. Maybe the plods should declare it as terrorist activity and proceed accordingly.

[bsal]

The same thing happened at Dublin airport a few weeks back, pilots reporting a green laser beam directed at them on approach to runway 16. Garda chopper was brought in to sust it out. Unbeleivable how stupid some people can be.

[Diesel Fitter]

There have been a rash of such attacks in NZ too-
"The Civil Aviation Authority says 16 laser strikes have occurred in Wellington alone during the past 18 months, out of a nationwide total of more than 30 over the past decade."
www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200806141422/30bcbacc (http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/latest/200806141422/30bcbacc)

And Oz-
"A recent laser attack on a Qantas Boeing 747 has led to concerns over the high intensity lights that are being imported into the country.

The aircraft was on final approach into Sydney Airport after travelling from Melbourne when it was attacked by the green laser. However it did not affect the landing and the aircraft landed without incident. This was not the first time that lasers had been used on aircraft in the area, one of which led to a youth being arrested. It is not clear if the incidents are the work of irresponsible individuals or if there is a more serious aim to the attacks.

After the spate of attacks the Australian Government has said that is will ban the import of such devices."

[Andu]

I've resisted saying this on a public forum for some time for fear of giving someone ideas, but now, with so many recent instances of laser attacks, I think it's just a matter of time before you-know-who's boys mount co-ordinated attacks in many different cities worldwide on civil aviation targets. Unless airlines and authorities prepare for such an attack, it has the potential to have a devastating effect.

The authorities have to make it very clear to anyone who thinks pointing a laser at an aeroplane is a clever idea that any such attack (and 'attack' is the correct word) will be treated very, very seriously - as in attempted murder, for murder is what it will amount to eventually when either professional terrorists or some stupid fool gets 'lucky' and dazzles a pilot at a critical point on the approach or during the takeoff roll.

[speedrestriction]

Unauthorised lasers also figured in the EGFF NOTAMs today. I had an incident not so long ago - reported to ATC who passed it on to the police. Lock some of these morons up for a few years and we will see how funny it is then.

[stoneyrosetreered]

Can't see how it can be policed.


I remember a couple of months ago the same thing happened but to a police helicopter, unsurprisingly the helicopter was there shortly and some lovely people at his door. You have to wonder what goes through these peoples minds, also, are laser pens (like the sort we used to use in the classroom) really powerful enough to reach an aircraft a couple of thousand feet up?

[HansFlyer]

Although the above technical decription serves well to inform us - it does sound as if some issues are not addressed:

The fact that the green light "speads" or "dillutes" is comforting until one discovers that the wind shield has a few "scratches" that causes it to suddenly become completely green. Unlike you car where the problem of an oncoming vehicle not dimming their head lamps?

Check this thread from the rotor heads:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=320314

HansFlyer

[cwatters]

This is worth a read..

"The Effects of Laser illumination on Operational and Visual Performance of Pilots During Final Approach"

http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/m...media/0409.pdf

It says that "illumination of flight crewmembers with laser radiation > 0.5uW/cm^2 is unacceptable"

If I did the sums right...

A 500mW output laser spread over a 1 meter diameter spot would be around 64uW/cm^2. Thats 128 times the acceptable level.

[sedburgh]

From the Southern Echo website toady:

Man Charged After Pointing Laser Pen At Plane (from Daily Echo) (http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/display.var.2382820.0.man_charged_after_pointing_laser_pen_a t_plane.php)

A HAMPSHIRE man has been charged with putting an aircraft in danger by shooting a laser beam at a plane.
Police have charged 19-year-old David Williams of Cuckoo Lane, Stubbington following an incident involving a 'laser pen' at the former Daedalus airfield at Lee-On-Solent.
A police spokeswoman said: "Williams was arrested by police after a laser pen beam was repeatedly aimed at the Hampshire Constabulary Air Support Unit plane, which was taking off from its airfield base at 11.13pm on June 5 this year.
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"The beam affected the pilot's night vision, but he was able to take the plane to a higher altitude and the plane's observer officers used the aircraft's equipment to search the area below."
Police teams on the ground were directed to a nearby park where the Williams was stopped by police officers and today he was charged with the offence under the provisions of the Air Navigation Order 2005, Article 73.
It is the first time that this charge has been brought against a person in Hampshire.
Williams is due to appear before Fareham Magistrates Court on Thursday, July 24.

[Bus Junkie]

I got lit up twice a few weeks ago. The same guy hit two other aircraft and the police helicopter that was looking for him. They caught him easily. The FBI agent told me there were four kids joyriding with a $300 laser bought on line. I was 15 miles from the laser and it made my left eye sore for a day.

[non iron]

l remember passing Manchester heading north in `93 on " guy fawkes " night and having a problem with lasers criss-crossing the sky ( l mean strong enough to light clouds which was the intention plainly). l made a report to atc from above 14,000ft, asking that the police investigate. My co-pilot, who was medicaly trained, kept his/her head down `till it stopped.
Our very own lawyer has got this right, bang `em up if caught "playing" with aircraft.

[soddim]

BBC NEWS | England | L@zer blinds passenger jet pilot (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/7568645.stm)

Mindless or terrorist?

[hardcase]

a total muppet who should get the electric chair :mad:

luckily it was a two crew a/c

[PaperTiger]

Mindless or terrorist?Terrorist no, just another moron.

Keep checking under your bed though.

[Capt Ted Crilly]

ASBO should just about cover it along with a good shoeing down the cop-shp

[DAL208]

Bollox to that-attempted murder. If i stormed a flight deck and shone a l@zer into pilots eye...id be down guantanamo by end of month..

[Sir George Cayley]

Make him look into his own LASER :D

Uh no then he could get a place on Big Bruvva:ugh:

Sir George Cayley

ps Just thought, throw the book at him. CAP736 to be precise!

[Sunfish]

Precedent already set in South Australia is two years jail, and it is a felony.

[radio ears]

What actions would the two up front, like passengers to do if we become aware the aircraft is being illumniated by a l@zer from the ground?

[ChristiaanJ]

DAL208 is right.
It's attempted murder.
Much like shoving a block of concrete off a motorway bridge through the windscreen of an oncoming car or lorry.
CJ

[pacplyer]

Why are these things still out in the public?

A nineteen-year-old can't posses a shoulder launched device can he? What's the difference with this laser?

Aren't they military spec green lasers? Aren't they designed to disable the vision of the enemy?

In Las Vegas in the 90's laser light shows would occasionally nail a crew and nothing was done to license or punish operators of these public hazards. This has been going on for a decade now.

How long is it until another dumb dumb tries this from the same town?

These lasers should be treated like illegal contraband and taken off the market imho.

[Tarq57]

What actions would the two up front, like passenergers to do if we become aware the aircraft is being illumniated by a laser from the ground?
Don't look at the sodding thing. Shield the eyes.Report it to ATC. When we receive such a report, we phone the police (and warn following traffic), who take it very seriously. Unfortunately, unless there's a very good position report (unlikely unless you've stared down the beam and can somehow still actually see) and there's good help from the nearby public (usually willing, but usually don't notice lasers originating from nearby, as they're so directional) there's often not a great deal they can do.

[EDIT] Thought you asked "what actions should the two up front take." Just re-read the question.
My answer is probably still valid, but doesn't address your question, sorry. But I would still suggest not looking at it. These things, if strong enough, can damage the eyes.

[kaikohe76]

I suppose he comes from a broken home, was abused by his father & was only doing it for a laugh.This unfortunately plus a brief provided by the taxpayer, will most likely get him off.

Yes it is attempted murder, cut & dried no questions, but we all know he will be sent home with a smack on the wrist.

[Rollingthunder]

Antone seen a photo of this scumbag?..... no, no let me guess.....

Shaved head, mouth breather, vacant look, IQ of around 55. Parents no prettier.

[CaptainSandL]

Incidents of lasers being shone at aircraft are very much on the increase. We were getting about one report per month until we raised the profile and then the reporting rate doubled. The reports are about 50:50 UK (our base) and Europe, so it is not just a British malaise.

Industry advice is as follows:
1. If you notice a laser, don’t look at it. It is very tempting, but it will increase the chance of eye injury.
2. Report it to ATC immediately. They can help pinpoint the location and report it to the police. This will also warn other nearby aircraft.
3. File an ASR. On CAA advice we are classifying all laser incidents as MORs so that the CAA can understand the extent of the problem and maybe take action nationally.
4. If any after-effects are felt, the crew member should seek specialist medical attention.


In the UK the police will probably be very proactive since they got a successful prosecution against a Muppet who shone a laser at the Manchester police helicopter.:ugh:

[Checkboard]

Since laser light has a specific wavelength, I wonder if anyone has thought of equipping police heli pilots with eye filters for the times they have to go hunt these idiots.

[Sepp]

Trouble is, there's all sorts of laser pointers out there, all emitting light of different wavelengths. You'd need umpteen filters to counter them all, and many of the wideband filters also restrict passage of visible light too.

Death's too good for the b@$t@rds.

[angels]

What exactly are these fecking laser thingies for? Do they perform some sort of useful function?

Or are they something we can order shops to stop selling and no-one would be particularly aggrieved by it?

I realise that they would still be available abroad, over the web etc, but it would be a start as I think most of these attacks are spur of the moment things rather than meticulously planned.

Anyone?

[CarltonBrowne the FO]

They are useful for teachers and lecturers for pointing to particular points on a display without having to lean in front of it: hence the name, laser pointers. Somehow I doubt this guy is a lecturer!

[angels]

Luddite I know, but why not use an old fashioned pointer?! I'm sure the lecturers could live with it.

[theothersimon]

OK, so I'm not a pilot, but I do know a lot about Lasers.

The issue here is with the small diode lasers that are sold as laser pointers, and as alignment lasers to the construction industry. The law on these items is that they should all be below 1mW, and hence fall into safety Class 1.

Class 1 lasers are inherently safe - in other words there is no way you can damage you eyes, no matter how long you stare into the beam. Which is why they can be sold without restrictions.

However you can find higher power diode lasers on sale, with 5 or more mW, which pushes them into Class 2 or even 3a. These you do have to be careful of, as they can do damage if you stare into the beam. This is quite hard to do in practice as you tend to blink and look away as the light light hurts, long before it actually damages you eyes. Even laser light spreads out as it travels (the narrowest laser spot we can put on the moon is five times with width of the moon!), so the damage peters out in a few metres.

Every so often Trading Standards cracks down on the illegal sale of Class 2 and 3a lasers as laser pointers, but given the flood coming in from the far east, they are losing the battle. They are the people who you should be complaining to.

Class 4 lasers are the ultra high power ones used for cutting metal and professional lighting displays. You need a lot of training before you will even be sold one of these. :ok:

The main hazard to pilots from nighttime lasers is distraction and temporary blindness. It is basically impossible to cause permanent damage from the ground, with anything you can buy over the counter (legal or illegal). It's the temporary blindness that is the major hazard to navigation, and why the sales of illegally high powered laser pointers should be better policed.

S

[Tarq57]

They're also fairly extensively used in the building industry, for lining up things that matter. Floor joists, when re-piling, for instance.
These ones are probably a bit more powerful than the ones used by lecturers, at a guess.

[pacplyer]

The main hazard to pilots from nighttime lasers is distraction and temporary blindness. It is basically impossible to cause permanent damage from the ground, with anything you can buy over the counter (legal or illegal). It's the temporary blindness that is the major hazard to navigation, and why the sales of illegally high powered laser pointers should be better policed.


Impossible? That's quite a Titanic statement you just made: "basically impossible." Did you consider the post USSR proliferation of overseas green surplus military lasers? When a crewmember is incapacitated with blindness sounds to me like much more than distraction or temporary blindness. How long is temporary? Here is all I could find on Wiki:

Even the first laser was recognized as being potentially dangerous. Theodore Maiman characterized the first laser as having a power of one "Gillette"; as it could burn through one Gillette razor blade. Today, it is accepted that even low-power lasers with only a few milliwatts of output power can be hazardous to human eyesight, when the beam from such a laser hits the eye directly or after reflection from a shiny surface. At wavelengths which the cornea and the lens can focus well, the coherence and low divergence of laser light means that it can be focused by the eye into an extremely small spot on the retina, resulting in localized burning and permanent damage in seconds or even less time.
Lasers are usually labeled with a safety class number, which identifies how dangerous the laser is:
Class I/1 is inherently safe, usually because the light is contained in an enclosure, for example in cd players.
Class II/2 is safe during normal use; the blink reflex of the eye will prevent damage. Usually up to 1 mW power, for example laser pointers.
Class IIIa/3R lasers are usually up to 5 mW and involve a small risk of eye damage within the time of the blink reflex. Staring into such a beam for several seconds is likely to cause (minor) eye damage.
Class IIIb/3B can cause immediate severe eye damage upon exposure. Usually lasers up to 500 mW, such as those in cd and dvd burners.
Class IV/4 lasers can burn skin, and in some cases, even scattered light can cause eye and/or skin damage. Many industrial and scientific lasers are in this class.
The indicated powers are for visible-light, continuous-wave lasers. For pulsed lasers and invisible wavelengths, other power limits apply. People working with class 3B and class 4 lasers can protect their eyes with safety goggles which are designed to absorb light of a particular wavelength.
Certain infrared lasers with wavelengths beyond about 1.4 micrometres are often referred to as being "eye-safe". This is because the intrinsic molecular vibrations of water molecules very strongly absorb light in this part of the spectrum, and thus a laser beam at these wavelengths is attenuated so completely as it passes through the eye's cornea that no light remains to be focused by the lens onto the retina. The label "eye-safe" can be misleading, however, as it only applies to relatively low power continuous wave beams and any high power or Q-switched laser at these wavelengths can burn the cornea, causing severe eye damage.
[edit]



I say ban em' all; and go back to chalk lines and wooden pointer sticks.....

[Checkboard]

Previous thread, with more technical info. : L@ser attcks (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/321825-laser-attacks.html)

[Dont Hang Up]

I could be completely wrong here so feel free to correct me, but are we not talking about something completely different to the lecturer's laser pointer?

Those narrow beam devices have been used to attack bus drivers etc at short range, but I would doubt they are powerful enough or can be directed accurately enough to be more than the briefest flicker in the eyline of a pilot in flight.

There is obviousle something else out there that is far more dangerous and has no obvious 'practical' application.

I remember driving home one evening, not quite dark, and suddenly one of the large reflective roadsigns ahead lit up a very unnatural and vivid green colour. Not just a dot, but the whole roadsign! A little further on the same thing happened again and I realised that someone in the car in front was firing off something through the windscreen. I suspect this is what we are worrying about here?

[dwshimoda]

I think your comments are a little out of date. These muppets are using items like this:

300mW 300 MW ADJUST FOCUS GREEN LASER POINTER TORCH NO4 on eBay, also, Laser Pointers, Gadgets, Consumer Electronics (end time 01-Sep-08 15:05:28 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/300mW-300-MW-ADJUST-FOCUS-GREEN-LASER-POINTER-TORCH-NO4_W0QQitemZ270243124041QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item27024312404 1&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

Freely available from ebay, and as you can see - a little more powerful than you suggest.

These idiots need to be prosecuted and put in prison. There is no valid reason for a normal person owning one of these.

[preduk]

Video here: YouTube - Green laser - 300mW Hulk Ultra lighting cigarette & matches (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6Zu2lhDoijk)

Thats how powerful they are, they aren't normal laser pointers.

[shooey]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/22/Laser_pointer_safety_distances.gif

These high-power ( > 1mW ) green laser devices are actually far too powerful to be used as 'pointers' in presentations or lectures, as they are so powerful! The reflected light energy is blinding to the presenter!! (similar to the effect on the road signs mentioned).

I'm not sure of their initial concieved use, be it military or otherwise but I do know they have found a use within the amateur astronomy circuit .where they were used as 'star pointers' (to align telescopes and to point out stars to others). They are falling out of favour however, due to the issues surrounding pilot blinding incidents.

The only real way to stop this IMHO, would be to reclassify any laser pointer with a power output > 5 mW as a form of potentially offensive weapon, perhaps introducing a licencing scheme such as exists for firearms to allow for legitimate uses.

For more info than you could possibly want on lasers, see Sam's Laser FAQ: Welcome Page (http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm)

[BladePilot]

Don't try taking any type of laser into the UAE as they are banned. they make no distinction between types (1,2,3,4). Pen lasers or other similar laser pointy devices in hold or hand baggage will be confiscated and your name (passport details) will be added to the bad boy list!

First recorded 'attack' by green laser in Abu Dhabi was reported by an Etihad crew in 2006 on approach to AUH. The crew did the right thing and reported the incident to ATC who turned out the local police, no one was apprehended. The incident was reported in the local press about a week later and within a couple of days of the newspaper story numerous sightings of green and red lasers were being reported around the Emirate. Seems the local boys had discovered a new plaything! Seems things have gone quiet these days thankfully.

Unaware that they were doing anything wrong the GCAA gave out 'pen lasers' to anyone who visited their stand at an aviation exhibition in the UAE earlier this year! Boy that was embarassing!

Did King Harold lose and eye to a green or red laser, maybe I'm getting my history confused?:)

[Sticky Fingers]

It's ludicrous that these things are legal at all in most countries. What gets me is that even a 125mW laser may or may not light cigarettes but it will still pop a balloon with ease. They should be treated like guns, only a person with a valid licence after an evaluation should be allowed to buy such things.

[glad rag]

Nice, two counts =5 years inside should send the right message.............:ooh::ooh:

Ban this ban that bla bla:sad:

[md80fanatic]

The basic rule with diode lasers is this. The more powerful the beam, the quicker it expands in diameter. The beam is focused such that at a very small distance from the aperture, you might be able to light a cigarette...or melt a hole in a black plastic bag. Prior to, and beyond this small area...the beam will NOT light a cigarette nor melt black plastic.

We must not succumb to the image of the "Star Trek" type phaser beam....they all disperse with the square of the distance away. As the knowledgeable poster on Page one said....the best lasers shot at the moon are 5 times the moon's diameter when they arrive there. If you were to look at the Earth from the moon (directly into the beam) you would most certainly NOT notice it.....it is that diverged.

For aircraft.....the beam operate the same way. It is very much wider (and hence weaker) than the millimeter beam width at the aperature. Combine this with topside cockpit windows, layed down at 45 degrees or more to the vertical, makes the beam pale in comparison to the landing lights on your wingtips.

IMO, people should not aim their lasers at planes and helicopters....in the rare instance where the impinging beam might refract in such a way as to briefly distract the pilot flying. And as such I do not think the "hang 'em high" attitude needs to be taken in light of the well known facts and physics of collimated(sp) monochrome light.

[Airbubba]

The basic rule with diode lasers is this. The more powerful the beam, the quicker it expands in diameter.

Actually not always true, at least at the low end of the power ratings in my opinion. Many of the more powerful DPSS lasers have much better divergence (e.g. less than 1.5 mrad) than a 5mw pointer. Some of the cheaper brands like New Wish use plastic optics so they do spread more regardless of power.

For all you rocket scientists, here's a technical discussion of laser beam divergence:

Melles Griot Optics Guide - Beam Waist and Divergence (http://www.mellesgriot.com/products/optics/gb_2_1.htm)

As the knowledgeable poster on Page one said....the best lasers shot at the moon are 5 times the moon's diameter when they arrive there.

I have to raise the B.S. flag on this gem of knowledge as well. Five times the moon's diameter would imply a beam divergence of 2.5 degrees, the astronomical lasers (and even laser pointers) do a lot better than that. From a recent article about the Lunar Laser Ranging Experiment:

A laser beam that starts out from a telescope on earth at about 1 meter width slowly diverges and is blurred by the atmosphere until it is about 10 km wide on the surface of the moon.

From: Anthonares Blog Archive Bouncing Laser Beams Off of the Moon (http://www.anthonares.net/2006/03/bouncing-laser-beams-off-of-the-moon.html)

[Checkboard]

We must not succumb to the image of the "Star Trek" type phaser beam....they all disperse with the square of the distance away. As the knowledgeable poster on Page one said....the best lasers shot at the moon are 5 times the moon's diameter when they arrive there.

Not that it matters - but the best lasers could make a spot on the moon about 2 km in diameter.

see this blog (http://www.osa-opn.org/Blog/post/2008/03/Image-of-the-near-side-of-the-moon-taken-by-the-Clementine-mission.aspx)

This is the internet! Beware "knowlegeable" [sic] posters! :suspect:

[oopspff7]

Some might think this a bit extreme in these tree hugging,bunny s*agging days,but I would subject these scroates to a dose of their own laser device and then ask them to walk a 4" wooden beam.............which just happened to be suspended between two extremely high buildings:ok: Post the results on Youtube and then see if it happens again.Maybe I should start a website....Letsstopscumbags.com. :D

[Oilandgasman]

Just phoned the Home Office re this problem. L@zers? Pilots? Eye damage? Safety of aircraft? They appear to know nothing about the problem.
However did give me an e-mail address where the issue could be raised with the Government. [email protected] Please write, just sent mine.

[10002level]

Having had one of these lasers targetted at my aircraft this week I can say that they are powerful enough to cause discomfort and distraction at 2,000' with the briefest of exposure. Ban them and prosecute - there is no debate.

[glad rag]

I think your comments are a little out of date. These muppets are using items like this:

300mW 300 MW ADJUST FOCUS GREEN LASER POINTER TORCH NO4 on eBay, also, Laser Pointers, Gadgets, Consumer Electronics (end time 01-Sep-08 15:05:28 BST) (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/300mW-300-MW-ADJUST-FOCUS-GREEN-LASER-POINTER-TORCH-NO4_W0QQitemZ270243124041QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item27024312404 1&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A3%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

Freely available from ebay, and as you can see - a little more powerful than you suggest.

These idiots need to be prosecuted and put in prison. There is no valid reason for a normal person owning one of these.

Well I own a <1mW green pointer and it is attached too and harmonized with my Celestron C8 SCT, for use in the Astronomical field. I do hope that you are not getting me mixed up those bloody dangerous idiots who both supply and use the above!!:sad:

[Sunfish]

Gentlemen, you may wish to draw this precedent to your legal colleagues.

From the Australian Broadcasting Commision (ABC)


Jailed laser offender loses appeal


One of the first people prosecuted in Australia for shining a laser pointer at an aircraft has lost an appeal against his jail sentence.

Lanfranco Baldetti, 23, was jailed for almost three years for prejudicing the safe operation of an aircraft.

An appeal to have the sentence suspended has been dismissed in the South Australian Court of Criminal Appeal.

Baldetti's 10-month non-parole term ends next February.

He had admitted shining the laser at Adelaide police as their helicopter flew over Rosewater in the northern suburbs.

The court heard the incident had temporarily blinded the pilot.

[SpacePilot]

It's time they banned aircraft from flying over areas where construction is taking place. A building has to stay up in the air for a hundred years, and these pontificating pilots want us to believe their needs are greater.

[thompsonmarkp]

First time I've read this thread about laser pointers affecting air crew. In my past, I have studied astronomy and there is, rightly or wrongly, a growing trend amongst both amateur and professional astronomers to use laser pointers as an aid to point telescopes at targets in the sky and also to measure stability in the atmosphere.

Just thought it worth pointing out that they may not all be mindless thugs trying to bring us down but instead, unaware of the danger they are causing.

For what its worth, I'm doing my best to bring this danger to the attention of the astronomy community.

Mark.

[Maxbert]

Hmmmm.... My father used to be a hobbyist holographer twenty-plus years ago. He started out with a 5mW HeNe laser, at the time a tube slightly thicker than a kitchen paper tube roll, about three times as long. He then had a 25 mW HeNe laser which, as the 5 mW one, was in no way portable as connected to a mains PSU. This thing sat on his sand table encased in a rectangular aluminium housing, about 1.5 metres long.

I digress- How is it possible to shine a laser into an aircraft cockpit from below :confused:

How is it possible to accurately aim at the eyes of a pilot, given the width of a laser beam, the movement of the aircraft and, again, the fact that your laser wielder is surely on the ground, whereas the aircraft is in the air :confused::confused::confused:

Finally, a lot of cockpit glass I have seen is decidedly tinted (often veering towards the green?)- Whilst I appreciate there are many different wavelengths of coherent and non-coherent light, does this anti glare tinting (and anti-cosmic ray???) have no dissipating effect?

Maxbert

[Sunfish]

Maxbert,

1. Cockpit design is arranged to give pilots forward and lateral views of the ground, especially when the aircraft is on approach. How else do you think they land them?

2. You ask how these lasers can be accurately aimed at aircraft? Ask the Chavs that do it!

3. The aircraft windscreen is most definitely NOT tinted and great trouble is taken in design to ensure they are as optically perfect as possible. What you are observing is a little refraction/reflection from the window heating film embedded in the multiple layers making up the cockpit windows.

Make the bloody things illegal, "using them for backyard astronomy?" my @rse!.

[glad rag]

"Make the bloody things illegal, "using them for backyard astronomy?" my @rse!."

What an @rse indeed. Pathetic. That is what they are used for you clown!

[brassmonkey]

One or two ppruners seem to be missing the point (if you pardon the pun) here, there is an existing peice of legislation that already covers this offence.

Whether or not the fricking laser is shone into the cockpit, reflected from the windshield, refracted into the cockpit...the individual to$$er who engages in the act of shining the device commits the substantive offence under section 63 of the Air Navigation Order, namely recklessly or negligently acting in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft, or any person therein.

The critical part of this legislation that makes it particularly useful in terms of prosecuting these offenders is the fact that their actions do not have to actually produce a dangerous result, and the offender does not need to be on the aircraft to commit the offence. Additionally the actions do not need to be deliberate in terms of ultimate intention either - the legal concepts of recklessness or negligence negate any possible defence such as that pathetic mantra "I didn't know it was dangerous to use a laser..or I was looking for my dog....etc".

Those fools who think it is funny shining lasers, powerful torches, fireworks etc at planes, regardless of their own idiotic perceptions can be arrested by police, charged and placed before the courts. The expert testimony of an aircraft captain who is prepared to stand up in the witness box and state that a laser distracted him from his core function of landing an a/c with lots of slf on board is highly likely to be damning and convincing evidence. Custodial sentences are available to the courts and can be used as punitive / deterrent measures. Whilst each case will be judged on individual merits, there is not a huge amount of legal precedent by which to gauge sentencing. Depending on the individual mode of trial (magistrates court or crown court), those found guilty could end up with a stretch behind bars. I don't think many in the judiciary take a light view of endangering a plane full of people.

The bottom line is simple - anyone with a bit of common sense can see the potential consequences of distracting a pilot at a crucial phase of flight such as landing or t/o. We do not need a debate on the relative strengths of different lasers, or the legitimacy of their designed purposes. We need to take firm action against those individuals who effectively gamble with the safety of aircraft, those on board and those under the flightpath!

On a side issue, I was not surprised that the Home Office were not aware of the available legislation - the ANO is less mainstream legislation (for want of better terminology) and is more likely to fall within the business area of the DFT. The more cynical amongst us may surmise that the legislation was on a memory stick down the back of someones sofa...:ok:

[MarlboroLite]

Well they are for sale in the magazine that accompanies the BBC Tv programme "The sky at night" or what ever its called with Patrick Moore.

Although im not a pilot, i have had a laser pointer flashed at me while driving along the A14 at night...Not the nicest experiances for me or my passenger when i performed what was basically an emergency stop from 75mph.

I agree with an earlier poster, do the chav scum with attempted murder on however many counts according to the number of passengers/crew on the plane.

[mark sicknote]

I think that any investigation into a cockpit lasing event would soon ascertain whether it was an accidental strobe by someone using a laser for astronomical purposes or "chav scum" having some sport.

How difficult can it be to issue a laser license to those who have a legitimate reason to possess such a device?

How many ac have been brought down by lasers in comparison to negligent engineering driven by cost and time cutting practices?

Best,

Sicknote:ok:

[Ell85]

Hi All... I'm a very soon to be commercial pilot (only 1 exam and a flight test left WOOHOO!) and I'm only flying little things that these laser owner have no interest in but what I really want to know is what is it like to be in the cockpit of an aircraft targeted by these lasers?

I mean how strong are they really and how much do they affect the vision? There have been quite a few of these attacks on the news in Australia and obviously the lasers are stronger than the tiny one I use to play with my kitten but what's it like? Does it blind you? Does it refract through the whole windscreen/cockpit making any sort of vision impossible or can you see if you put your hand in the way of the laser (not that you want to land a jet with one hand but you know what I mean)?

[msmorley]

I mean how strong are they really and how much do they affect the vision?

They're surprisingly strong. I saw one as pax when OS457 was targeted on approach to LHR 27L last night. Despite being side on, and thus being much harder to track the aircraft, the glare was incredible and although I experienced no visual sensation it was most uncomfortable. I can only imagine what it must be like seeing these things nose-on from the flight deck where it's easier for the muppets to aim.

(Un)fortunately, I (and I suspect most of the other passengers) got quite a good look :ouch: at the location of the laser here (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?t=h&hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&ll=51.480417,-0.258393&spn=0.001507,0.005289&z=18&msid=115157679549038425161.00045519c16757b438a4b&mid=1219469274).

[Ell85]

Thanks, sounds interesting... and as you suggested not nice if you're up the front. Not something I expect to affect me much as I want to be an instructor flying Cessna 152's for the rest of my life but it's always good to know.

[ChrisLKKB]

You ask how these lasers can be accurately aimed at aircraft? Ask the Chavs that do it!I suspect it's a bit like the pilot who gets his first mag light and shines it up the street to see if it lights up his neighbours house. The pikey probably bought the laser pen (or nicked it) and was looking for the furthest object away in his line of sight that he could light up. The fact it went into the pilots eyes was probably more chance than anything but as it's a continuous beam if he keeps waving it around in the general direction it's going to hit the target, a bit like when you are trying to hose shampoo off the dog when he's running round the garden...or is that just me ???

I've owned a laser pointer (it was a gift) and I own a couple of laser levels. The pointer has been thrown away, getting the dog to chase the little dot around the room was driving him nuts, but I still use the laser levels from time to time. The difference with these particular levels though is that they are designed to strike a straight line over a surface, they wont shine a concentrated dot into anyones eyes no matter how much you waft them round. I've no doubt they could be converted in some way or another to do so but it's probably well beyond the wit of your average Burberry wearer who just wants to light stuff up.

Surely it's not very difficult to legislate against the sale of devices that shine a concentrated laser dot as opposed to a laser line. Devices that shine a laser dot have no real practical pupose in general day to day use, even on a building sight and lecturers don't need to use one, they have managed perfectly well with normal pokey pointers in the past and they can continue to do so. If astronamers want to use them to line up their telescopes then let them apply for a licence to buy and use one, i'm sure they wouldn't be that put out by having to do so.

[glad rag]

If astronamers want to use them to line up their telescopes then let them apply for a licence to buy and use one, i'm sure they wouldn't be that put out by having to do so.

Of course that will stop all those who are "unlicensed" from pointing them at you. :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

This type of idiotic posting just goes to show what happens when you let people buy their way into the industry!!

[Biffer]

I am a Police Helicopter Pilot and really your (complainant/Target) only real means of bringing a prosecution against these idiots with the Green lasers or indeed the Red lasers also.
I have suffered numerous attacks over the past ten years since leaving the military.
We kind of ignore them most the time as we have a job to do but appreciate the fact that large fixed planks would have great difficulty in locating or indeed talking Police ground units onto the laser.
Personally I believe in squirting the 10.5 million candle power torch at them. It works for us.
So.
It will normally happen during final approach and as soon as it does inform App/Twr of the attack (which I suggest could not be accidental as they tend to hit you on and off for 30 secs or more).
They will register it as such and will inform the local Police, and all following aircraft into the airport.
If you should be lucky enough to have a Police Helicopter Unit close by then the ATC will almost certainly inform them of the incident.
It is not normal to deploy for a laser attack but they will "keep a close watch on the area" during normal tasks.
That said a KLM on finals into EGNV last week was hit and during a return to base following a task, we managed to see the Green laser as he tried to light us up also.
One arrested, laser confiscated as dangerous weapon, KLM crew interviewed and all paperwork completed within a few hours.
Idiot appeared in court on Teesside Fri 22nd Aug.
It can be dealt with but we need to know.
Maybe the CAA could inform us quicker, post MOR. I doubt it but the local relationship of the ATC and Police crews is very good and is no doubt your best option.
ie. 4 miles on final 23 right side by 2 miles etc. easy.

(Plane hit by laser danger - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2008/08/19/plane-hit-by-laser-danger-84229-21558848/))

I have not got the result of the court appearance but the last prosecution awarded 4 months detention.

All the very best

[ChristiaanJ]

I am a Police Helicopter Pilot .... Since in this case they did confiscate the l@zer, can you get any information on the type?

I think there's a huge confusion.

There are l@zer "pens" (Class I, up to 1mW) which are useful during lectures (they replace the old flashlight pointers, which projected a little arrow) or, according to one informed amateur astronomer poster on her, can be used for lining up a telescope. They're about as 'dangerous' as a flash-light (think MagLights), and will just dazzle you momentarily from a few metres away. You probably wouldn't even see them from an aircraft, since the optics aren't that good.

There are the l@sers used on building sites, as mentioned earlier. Apart from the l@zer 'levels' (which project a line), there are others which allow you to get an accurate alignment over a few hundred metres. They're slightly more powerful, but still pretty useless for "lighting up" an aircraft.

Then there's the "big stuff" such as used for laser light shows, etc. There we're talking about something like 30mW to 300mW: look at the eBay item mentioned earlier.
Unfortunately those seem to be readily available, and are used as "toys" by chavs, etc. to put spectacular videos on YouTube of burning through chair legs... and also for these "l@ser attacks" on aircraft.

So, Biffer, any chance of clarifying this by giving us an idea of what we're really looking at?
And I would bet it's not a l@zer "pen".

CJ

[ankh]

5mw is the safe pointer limit. Type a larger number followed by mw +l@zer into Google. If you don't know what's available, you'll be surprised.

[Oilandgasman]

Had a reply from the Home Office, Offensive Weapons Section, advising me that they are keeping the subject under review. If injury caused by a l@zer pointer then prosecution is possible under the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 with maximum penalty of 5 years in prison or an unlimited fine or both. Annoyance is covered under the Public Order Act 1986 with a max penalty of a £1000 fine. The fine for selling these is covered under the General Products Safety Regulations 1994 with max penalty of 3 months imprisonment or a £5000 fine or both. (This also covers Class 3a and Class 4 l@zers as defined by EU law in 9 BS EN 60825 part 1 1994) Trading Standards across the UK have been urged to use their powers under the latter act to remove such articles from sale.
I have replied indicating that imports from abroad are still a threat and any review should include discussion with the CAA and BALPA. I have also indicated that the penalties in other countries are much more severe than those in the UK and that we should follow the example set elsewhere.

[wobble2plank]

It's not just L@sER's that these muppets use, try landing on 27R at LHR on the run up to Nov 5th. Just short of the Q carpark there is a small patch of open ground that the 'Chavs' use as a Ground to Air missile launching pad.

Have to give them their due, they should be sent to the Army, they are getting quite good! Nothing wakes you up on short finals like a rocket bouncing off the underside of the cockpit.

They have also been using their 'L@ser pointers' recently. What do these idiots need with a l@zer pointer anyway? Mugging power point presentations anyone???

As a previous helicopter pilot I have also been illuminated in the past and it can be extremely distracting and therefore dangerous. If we can slam people in jail for talking on their mobiles in their cars and being distracted, surely we can come up with a suitable charge for this?

Gotta love it, back when I was a kid we had no nintendo, internet, computers, games consoles, mobile phones, l@zer pointers, 24 hour rubbish TV (only 3 channels) etc. etc. etc. We made it through the day. Now the 'stock' excuse for these idiots is 'we're only doin it 'cause we're bored Guv, t'aint nowt to do round here' .. Bullsh*t.

Rant over :}

[M100S2]

The chances of lengthy custodial sentences being applied to misuse of lasers affecting aviation is very, very slim. My rationale?

The scum that drop or place lumps of concrete or steelwork onto roads and railways hardly ever get charged with:

a) Murder
b) Attempted Murder
c) Manslaughter
d) Possession of an offensive weapon
e) Anything

Things might change if there was a large loss of life but I doubt it. The law at least in the UK is, and continues to be, an ass.

[glad rag]

If we can slam people in jail for talking on their mobiles in their cars and being distracted, surely we can come up with a suitable charge for this?

There is.

[sean maxwell]

Apparently they can be bought mail order, look at:

wickedlasers.com

Sean

[highflyin]

I would call this laser shining incident “youthful high spirits”.

The aircraft landed safely, no damage, no loss of life.

Sure at 19 he should know better.

But I bet we all did stupid stuff at 19 we regretted later.

Do you really think he set off that day thinking “I’ll try and crash an aircraft” I really doubt it.

All the pensioners and eco Nazis would have him chemically lobotomised for this, but he’s probably paying their pensions through taxation; so biting the hand that feeds is not such a good strategy.

Anyway rant over !

[Acklington]

This is the answer

ABL YAL 1A Airborne Laser Air Force Technology (http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/abl/)

They don't like it up em

[awblain]

There are two very distinct classes of l@zers that might be used by
astronomers.

The first is a classroom l@zer pointer used to highlight sights in the
sky for a huddle of people at night, see
5mW Green Laser Pointer for Astronomy (http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~fine/opinions/z-bolt-6plus.html).
There's no reason for these to exceed 5mW.

The second is the multi-10W class of yellow l@zers used to produce a
~90-km-high sodium beacon to sample atmospheric turbulence above
a small number of professional observatories. These are always used
with spotters, who cut off the l@zer on sight of aircraft. See,
http://www2.keck.hawaii.edu/optics/lgsao/docs/kaon361.pdf.
These are launched through 20-cm-class telescopes, so they have
finite width, but would definitely hurt. In the US, pointing directions
must also be approved in advance by the USAF to avoid satellite
collisions, and on a typical night there are a handful of windows where
the air force refuses the observatory permission to use the l@ser.

I would be interested to know whether pilots operating near Mounts
Hamilton and Palomar, California and Mauna Kea in Hawaii have noticed
these yellow/orange beams, especially on night-vision goggles. It is very likely that military observatories in Hawaii and the western US use similar
beacons.

These l@zer classes are so distinct in properties, that neither should
interfere with aircraft operations. The first by being no risk, and the second by being turned off if aircraft are near. I am sceptical that an innocent astronomy spotting pointer being scanned from star to star in the sky could be responsible for an aircraft blinding incident, and would expect a court
to see through this as a defense, especially as there's no reason to use
a pointer without a small crowd of witnesses.

I would expect that atmospheric chemistry sounding l@zers and l@zer-show
l@zers would pose more of a risk.

[Legalapproach]

Some of you may recall a recent thread concerning two oafs who had targeted a l@zer pen at a police helicopter. They came before HH Judge Tudor Owen at Snaresbrook Crown Court who sentenced them to six months custody.

The Court of Appeal recently considered their appeals and dismissed them observing that in the view of their Lordships the case clearly crossed the custody threshold and such a case could not be dealt with by any lesser penalty.

The Court further observed that His Honour Judge Owen "plainly took a great deal of care over this case." In passing sentence the learned judge said the message should go out that people who target helicopters in this idiotic and dangerous way should expect to receive custodial sentences.

"Few cases of this sort come before the court, in part because it is often difficult to apprehend those on the ground.
In our judgment the learned judge was right to make it clear that custodial sentences will usually follow when offenders committing this offence are caught."

[BladePilot]

13.09.08
A police investigation is under way after a laser beam was targeted at Aberdeen Airport (http://www.aberdeenairport.com/) last night. An airport spokesman told the Press & Journal: ‘There was a report of green laser light being directed onto the airfield from the Overton Garage area.'
Two airport employees reported seeing the light yesterday. Police and airport security staff swooped on the site where the laser light came from – a mile to the north-west of the runway.

A police spokeswoman said: ‘I can confirm we are investigating an incident involving a laser light which occurred at 22:00. Inquiries are at an early stage and are currently on going. But the light was not shone at any aircraft or vehicle.’

[Tonic Please]

I thought the end of this video was something of relevance to the thread - along with lighting things.

Complete watching is encouraged.

YouTube - Green laser - Hulk hand held laser - what can it burn??? (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bRkufG5kR5A&feature=related)

[Francis Frogbound]

Fascinating to see the side bar ads all trying to sell us lasers on this thread:rolleyes:

[jetsetjobbie]

When you sell your soul to google, there will be pain.

[Airbubba]

Fascinating to see the side bar ads all trying to sell us lasers on this thread

Yep, this one was beside your post on my browser:

Ads by Google

World's Most Powerful
Handheld Green Lasers! Beam Visible For Miles, Burn Through Plastic
www.--------.com

[Tarq57]

The MVPS Hosts File (http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm) prevents any of these ads displaying. All the pages look normal to me.
(Darn. Now I won't be in the know if I ever want to buy a laser.:})

[Lone_Ranger]

I use "noscript" within firefox..I also dont see any of that cr@p

[tbavprof]

Assume that the little green dot is part of the targeting aid on a firearm. Return fire immediately. Self-defense.

[Dangerman]

And of course a small moral victory will be achieved if everyone reading this thread clicks on a few of those links for companies selling these lasers. These companies have to pay Google for every click through to their website, and Pprune then gets a share of this money from Google ....

[eikido]

There are safety goggles.
Protection Safety Glasses Goggles for 532nm Green laser - eBay (item 220281822768 end time Sep-22-08 07:05:29 PDT) (http://cgi.ebay.com/Protection-Safety-Glasses-Goggles-for-532nm-Green-laser_W0QQitemZ220281822768QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item220281822 768&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

I guess all cockpits will be equiped with these in the future.

[eikido]

Oh dear!!

This is how dangerous it is!!

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/4540/[email protected] (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2greenlaserinplanewindoxp7.jpg)

ImageShack - Hosting :: [email protected] (http://img126.imageshack.us/my.php?image=2greenlaserinplanewindoxp7.jpg)

[xplorer]

Good one theothersimon, thanks for the headsup on lasers :ok:

[dazdaz]

Just curious about laser attacks.
Would take one good sniper to put (what distance are we talking about) a beam into the pilots eyes? 500-1500m. Please don't crucify me on this post,

I can't comprehend some kid using a 'pen pointer ' causing all so much disruption.

[ChristiaanJ]

dazdaz,
You have totally missed the point, as have several other posters here.
These are NOT "pen pointers", but l@zers with over a hundred times the power.
We're talking about the kind used for "l@zer light shows", and for professional applications, such as l@zer marking, and industrial laser cutting.
They are feckin' dangerous when not used under controlled conditions.

Unfortunately, they are still being sold as toys!

[goates]

A local gentleman here has just been fined $1,000 for playing with a laser. He pointed it first at a Jazz flight (Dash 8), and then at a police helicopter that was sent to search for the source of the laser. Didn't think that one through very far. This one wasn't on final approach, but the Dash 8s do come over here relatively low.

Calgary laser flasher gets $1,000 fine (http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/story.html?id=3bf05be4-b027-4b00-93d2-c3f716ecb10c)

[mustpost]

On the face of it, this would "appear" to be a new report today of 2 fresh incidents at Edinburgh....
Exclusive: Police hunt after pilots are blinded with lasers at Edinburgh Airport - The Daily Record (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/09/19/exclusive-police-hunt-after-pilots-are-blinded-with-lasers-at-edinburgh-airport-86908-20743333/)

[Double Zero]

I am hardly blaming the chap for being ( for me ) a generally great author, but it's a sad fact that Tom Clancy foresaw both using hijacked airliners as weapons, and deliberately crashing airliners with a Pilot Incapacitation Laser.

I was going to say the 'authorities' had better start thumbing through his backlist to see what other ideas the nutters think worth a try.

Then I remembered ' The Sum of All Fears' ... For those of you who haven't tried it, the story of acquiring a 'mislaid' aircraft Nuke and transporting it by land to a major stadium & population centre.

I doubt the nuts, be they misguided idiots high on cider, or terrorists, are going to find that one easy, so might be worth looking what other schemes Mr.Clancy thought up.

The ironic thing of is course he is a really patriotic guy, I suspect he'd shoot himself rather than influence one attack; his whole message is pro-defence - also though the lack of political will to supply it until too late.

Just pointing out a trend ?

[mercurydancer]

The man.. (ok he was 19 but so are many soldiers) aimed a laser at an aircraft. he then tried to blind the crew of the police helicopter who were dispatched to try to find him. This isnt high spirits hes an arsehole who knew exactly what he was doing. He also has not had a job, ever... so he just thought he would liven things up by trying to cause an aircraft crash. Hes in court next month and I hope he gets a custodial sentance.

[Double Zero]

How about putting him in a sim, set up for landing, then at the approriate moment, 'blind' him; if he lands perfectly, halve the hopefully stiff sentence; if not, double it !

Also introduce him to families of crash victims - I suspect they'd be only too willing to help educate.

That might give him something to reflect upon, pardon the pun.

And no, don't care if he can fly so much as a PC...

[Double Zero]

Seriously,

This laser problem, with powerful kit in the hands of idiots ( terrorists is a whole different ball game ) is obviously a problem which if we - I say we as SLF / someone possibly underneath/ concerned anyway - will be lucky if there is not a serious accident before it stops.

Seems to me, while tracing gits who 've bought the things recently may be relatively easy, that doesn't really sort it; only thing I can think of is a hand-in amnesty, with a high enough reward to make it worth their while.

Might be nauseating paying the idiots, but I reckon £ will be the only thing to appeal to them - or their relatives / chums - a warning campaign would only glamourise it, bring in more berks, and worry the public.

It would be money well spent don't you think ?

This seems to apply internationally.

[Oilandgasman]

BBC NEWS | Scotland | North East/N Isles | Youths, 12, 'lasered helicopter' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/north_east/7663880.stm)
Aged 12!!! Well done the Bristows pilot who reported them.:D

[jeanyqua]

Hi..slf here...
I used to rollerblade along Benidorm seafront years ago..(reckon around 15 yrs ago)..it was a nightly excercise,usually after 10 pm in the winter time,when there were no crowds..
Anyways,i remember the terror i felt when i was followed by a red dot,not knowing it must have been some childish tw*t in one of the apartment bulidings playing with a laser,but was convinced it was a sniper aiming to pop me off.
Truth be known,they were probably having a right laugh at my expense,as i tried to dodge it,and eventualy hid in a doorway.
I really think that the offenders know exactly what they are doing,it falls into the same catagory as lobbing a lump of concrete off a motorway bridge,just to see if they can "miss".??? the vehicle passing underneath.
I say prosecute,and no less than a prison sentence for endangering an airline,it's crew and passengers.

[manrow]

Every time there are reports about laser targeting we get more reports of it happening.

So surely we all know what the answer is ....................... ?

[Finn47]

Two years of jail for California man:

L@ser shot at Sheriff?s helicopter leads to jail (http://www.faxts.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=203:bakersfield-laser-tagger-sentenced-to-two-years&catid=66:crime-news)

[glad rag]

PILOTS ARE ADVISED THAT THERE HAVE BEEN OCCASIONS WHEN AN
UNAUTHORISED GROUND BASED LASER LIGHT HAS BEEN OBSERVED AROUND THE AD AREA

Somewhat vague don't you think?? :rolleyes:

[Finn47]

46 laser incidents reported so far in Canada this year. The maximum penalty for a perp caught in the act seems to be 5 years.

TheStar.com | GTA | More pilots blinded by lasers (http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/520938)

[Pilot Ginj]

I've been a target 3 times now. Twice on approach into Manchester, looked like somewhere near Cheadle and then once from the Buxton area.

The other occasion the chav had a device powerful enough to hit us from the resort across the bay south of Kos airport.

I'm going start wearing my sunnies at night....

[AMEandPPL]

somewhere near Cheadle and then once from the Buxton area

Cheadle is right under short final for 23R, but Buxton is much further out, so you'd still be considerably higher there ! My practice is quite close to Buxton . . . . . but it wasn't me, guv - - honest ! !

[R04stb33f]

I just read on the Eurofighter website that the "Head Equipment Assembly" is equipped with an anti-l@zer visor. Something to do with l@zer targeting systems potentially shining in the eyes of the pilot. Is there any way that this kind of anti l@zer technology can be retro-fit into the already multi-layered aircraft windshields?

There seems to be no realistic way of stopping people from endangering aircraft in this way so why not make them laser proof from this angle? Has this ever been tried?

[lederhosen]

The LH aircraft in front of my 737 on approach to Hamburg runway 23 a few weeks ago reported a laser being shone at him. I was somewhat taken aback when the tower asked me if I would look out and try and spot it.

He wasn't joking as he asked me after landing if I saw anything. I would have prefered if he had said something more sensible like, caution a laser has been reported by previous aircraft, report if anything seen.

[AMEandPPL]

Is there any way that this kind of anti-l@zer technology can be retro-fitted into the already multi-layered aircraft windshields?

Obviously a very attractive idea if it were practicable, and affordable.

BALPA members will see in the latest edition of its magazine (Oct/Nov 2008) there is an interesting article about the whole subject of l@zer hazards to flights. One paragraph in the article reads :

Technologies are available to mitigate the effects of l@zers, but are cumbersome, do not provide full-spectrum protection, and are unlikely to be installed on airline flight decks in the foreseeable future

So there's your answer for now.

[awblain]

Military goggles are specified to cut out wavelengths that are known to be in use by nearby friends (or known enemies). The same goes for medical goggles - they cut out the wavelength that is known to be in use.

As noted above, dye-based club/pointer/hobby lasers have so many frequencies available that filters can't guarantee protection. This is especially true if someone truly twisted uses a non-standard wavelength, so to fall outside standard filters.

Green 532-nm is the most common powerful laser, and you can get decent protection for $200 or so. For a bright source, you should still see some green light, but it would be attenuated below a dangerous brightness.

However, note that LED/LCD displays and warning lights can emit a reasonably narrow wavelength range, and so protection goggles (unlike most sunglasses) could affect perception. As a result, there could be unforeseen safety consequences from donning 532-nm blocking lenses in the cockpit.

[Hot Wings]

More laser "action" reported near BNN at 18:15ish last night. Idiots!

[johnny_18]

I had some twit on the ground flashing his l@zer at me (caught in the peripheral vision of my eyes) recently in Central Europe whilst on initial departure at night.

It seems to becoming more and more popular.

How powerful are these devices, and, can they cause any long-term retinal damage?

[awblain]

Pointers are in the milliWatt range. Disco l@zers are in the Watt range. All are distracting if shone into your eyes, and disco l@zers could be damaging.

However, even with a launch telescope, it is unlikely that enough light from a disco l@zer would make it into your eye to do any lasting damage. I believe the danger is from distraction.

The eye tends to steer automatically to a bright light, which exacerbates dazzle and helps to wipe out the most sensitive patch of your vision. Knowledge of this effect is some protection, as a conscious effort to look away will help.

A series of shots from a cheap digital camera out of your window might allow the authorities to work out quite accurately where the l@zer's coming from, by comparison with other lights, even if it does sounds a bit like the CBS show `Numbers'. Without pictures, it'd be tough to get a position, unless the perpetrating MOOC decides to continue to light up the police helicopter until friends on the ground arrive (as previous posts report can happen).

[ChristiaanJ]

Does anybody on this thread have any reliable figures?

Looking at the sun for more than an instant, even with the iris of the eye closed to the maximum, can do retinal damage. Doing so through binoculars is almost certainly to do such damage.

Laser pointers, of the type used in a lecture hall, are "class I", and can momentarily dazzle you if shone right into your eyes in the semi-dark from close-up, but are otherwise pretty harmless. If one was pointed at an aircraft from a mile away, you would probably not even notice it.

Here we are talking about 'disco' lasers. The stuff that's used for disco shows, laser light shows, etc. For sale on eBay and suchlike to all and sundry. Now we're talking 300 mW and more.

I take it it's already a given, that looking directly into a 300mW laser beam from a mile away, even quite briefly, is enough to totally dazzle you, and make you see stars and splotches for minutes afterwards. Not quite what you want to see when you're flying an aircraft.
Even without looking directly into the beam, the effect is totally distracting, and may be enough to destroy your night vision, when, again, your iris is already fully open.

But my strictly personal question for the moment is: are there any records about permanent retinal damage at the power levels we're talking about?

Not trying to minimise the matter.... rather the contrary!

CJ

[Piltdown Man]

It's not just the potential blindness that is the problem. You also have to consider the distractional value of such a device. Typically, these lasers are shone at aircraft operating closer to the ground - the time when we are changing speed, configuration and being steered clear of other traffic and obstacles. These devices make it more likely to for crew to make an error. If just for that the little gits who shine these things at people need their nuts removing.

PM

[HarryMann]

In the UK this will probably be dealt with just as pathetically as mobile phone use when driving...

1) Wait 3 years after the problem becomes acknowledged by the general public..
2) Parliament wakes up 3 years too late and then spends another year prattling about it..
3) Finally get some legislation in place 4 years too late
4) Then the Police Force declare a 6 month amnesty '...until the driving public get used to the idea' (probably illegal actually, a law is a law!)
5) End Result... nobody takes it at all seriously, esp. power-suited dodgem dames on the way to their date after work; White van men; Mums doing the school run with umpteen kiddies in the back of tinted window SUVs; Yardies doing their drug-runs (cut and shut BMWs usually)... etc

Bet that's the timescale and nett effect in this case too... zilch!

PS.Nos 1 & 4 were shameful - sent totally the wrong message!

[silverhawk]

Happened last night here on the Fylde Riviera.

Someone with a green laser purposely and directly focussed the flightdeck of a 737 on finals.

Be sure this was from 'Cooksons' area of Lytham Industrial estate, nothing to do with the Illuminations.

[lurkio]

Having been targeted inbound to LPL last week I thought how nice it would have been to open a hole in the aircraft and let out one of those fancy laser guided devices that would have really spoilt the tw@ts evening. I can but dream.

[theothersimon]

CJ:
"Does anybody on this thread have any reliable figures?"

No, because it is not a simple answer.

For obvious reasons it is very difficult to do research into the flux levels required to permanently damage human retinas. The best we can do is to look at industrial accidents, and work backwards to try and figure out where the thresholds lie - however due to the low numbers of incidents this does not produce accurate data. Also most of the work has been into non-visible wavelengths, as they are far more common in industrial contexts.

The best efforts of the industry and regulators have led to the laser Safety Classes (Laser safety - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser_safety)) which I wrote about on a previous post. The best models so far work on the assumption that permanent damage to the retina is thermal, so is a combination of flux level, wavelength and time.

Given the difficulty in aiming a laser at an aircraft (even for the military this has proved insurmaountable so far), it is almost impossible for the beam to be held on your eyeball for long enough to do thermal damage to your retina. You are talking milliseconds if not microseconds of exposure. Plenty of time to dazzle you, to leave afterimages, to disorient you. But not enough to cause permanent damage.

S.

Sorry about the wildly inaccurate moon numbers in the last post. The perils of trying to write this stuff from memory.

[theothersimon]

So let's do a calculation.

For a handheld laser pointed at an aircraft, let's work on the assumption that the eyeball is expose to the beam for 1/1000th of a second.

For visible light, for 1ms, the Maximum Permitted Exposure (MPE) flux is 0.01 W/cm2. (From IEC 60825)

For a laser with a beam angle of 1.5mrad (i.e. a very good narrow beam), the beam will spread by 3 feet for every 1000 feet travelled.

To make the maths easier, I'll round that to a 1m beam at 1000 feet.

Your pupil is defined at 0.39 cm2 = 0.000039 m2, so you will get 0.000012 (0.0012%) of the beam in your eye.

Working that backwards that means you will need 0.0256W of flux into your eyeball to cause damage, which will need a 2066W laser on the ground.

Now a 2kW laser is a bit beyond even ebay.

Or have I got the maths wrong again.

Simon.

[AMEandPPL]

Why are we discussing whether there is permanent retinal damage or not ?

Plenty of time to dazzle you, to leave after images, to disorient you

If, as a result of dazzle, after-images or disorientation in a pilot, especially at the low levels often involved, an accident occurs . . . . . . well, who knows how many people would have permanent damage, to retinas and everything else as well !

[Tan]

If a 737 pilot experiences a laser incident on take-off what is the most prudent action to take? (1) Land immediately and have the pilot cleared by medical professionals before continuing? (2) Do a self-assessment and continue on to destination then be checked by a medical professional?

I’m all for number 1…

[AMEandPPL]

If a 737 pilot experiences a laser incident on take-off

First words should be : "You have control" .

The aeroplane is still 100% sound, the other crew member is flying it safely, and the dazzle effects (or whatever) will subside in a relatively short time.

Report the incident to ATC: yes.

Emergency return to departure airfield (heavy with fuel, etc) : NO.

[wub]

And again:
BBC NEWS | Scotland | Edinburgh, East and Fife | Probe after laser dazzles pilot (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7686514.stm)

[Tan]

AMC and PPL

I don’t think so as that’s not the safest response. (1) You have no idea exactly how much damage the crewmember has sustained if any. (2) Returning to land immediately in a 737 is no big deal (3) if any further incidents/accidents occur you and your company is on the legal hook big time

[AMEandPPL]

You have no idea exactly how much damage the crewmember has sustained if any

Indeed, but
Given the difficulty in aiming a laser at an aircraft (even for the military this has proved insurmaountable so far), it is almost impossible for the beam to be held on your eyeball for long enough to do thermal damage to your retina

General consensus from throughout the thread is that it's very likely to be minimal, and temporary, from most of the lasers currently available and being used by yobs for this purpose.

Awaiting more views on this from others actually doing the job (I'm not ! ).

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Well, here's a first hand acount.

I got l@zered tonight going into LCY.

saw a green light moving about down on my left side. Suddenly it 'flashed' in a way that to me seemed to say that it had been pointed straight at me (us actually as the FO saw it too).

It did no harm but we reported it and the cops attended after pax got off.

:ooh::rolleyes:

[BladePilot]

Looks like Edinburgh is fast becoming 'laser alley'


23.10.08
"A police investigation has been launched after pilots landing two planes in Edinburgh Airport were dazzled by a green laser. Both planes landed safely. These latest incidents follows a similar incident last month.
The captain of a cargo plane from Aberdeen was targeted by the beam while he was landing, which caused the plane to drop 400ft on Tuesday. Half an hour later the laser was aimed at an easyjet Airbus landing at 22:00 from Stansted. It is the sixth incident in recent months.
A Police spokesman said: ‘Police are investigating an incident that happened at about 22:00 on Tuesday night, where a laser light was shone at two aircraft as they approached Edinburgh Airport. The light, which was thought to have emanated from the Leith area of Edinburgh, dazzled the pilot of one of the aircraft, which was a cargo plane"

[coldair]

Sadly, it appears that the authorities in UK are still not taking these attacks seriously.


BBC NEWS | England | Suffolk | Pilot dazzler avoids being jailed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/7693076.stm)

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/printer_friendly/news_logo.gif
Pilot dazzler avoids being jailed

A man who shone a laser pen at a police helicopter, dazzling the pilot, has received a suspended sentence.
Glen Porter, 20, of St Augustine's Road, Ipswich, admitted using the laser pen from an Ipswich nightclub car park.
The town's crown court heard how the pilot, who was searching for a missing child, had to take a sharp turn because of a "green and blinding light".
Porter, who had admitted endangering an aircraft, received a 20-week jail term, suspended for 18 months.
Cannabis warning
The court heard Porter, who pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing, had smoked cannabis shortly before the offence on 27 April and had been in hospital four times for a mental health problem brought on by use of the drug.
Judge John Devaux said: "It's quite plain what the consequences of this could have been, both to the occupant or occupants of the helicopter and to those on the ground."
He said Porter, who bought the pen on internet auction site eBay, had avoided being jailed immediately because the court did not want to "interfere" with his rehabilitation.
But the judge warned him the sentence would be enforced if he was caught in possession of a laser pen or cannabis within the next 18 months. Ebay has since stopped selling certain types of laser pen.

Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | England | Suffolk | Pilot dazzler avoids being jailed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/england/suffolk/7693076.stm)

Published: 2008/10/27 12:35:30 GMT

© BBC MMVIII

[awblain]

It sounds like arrivals over British urban areas are seeing this more and more often. Even if it is simply a larger reporting fraction, the consequences for safety are very significant. I am sure the constabulary are up to their ears, but I can think of several routes for them to get a result in finding the perpetrators. The kind of idiot that would do this must be up to all manner of other stuff that makes their neighbours' lives miserable, and getting them off the streets must be a good thing.

Location of a l@zer at night is difficult without images. Unless you see the beam and can collar the user on the spot.

1) Photos from the attacked aircraft would be useful, but I don't think it's realistic to expect a crew to grab a picture of the l@zer when they have plenty of normal work to do. Also, looking straight down the beam would not give as much position information as seeing it from the side. Nevertheless, a simple wide-angle infinite-focus camera with a multi-frame shooting mode (phone?) in the cockpit could probably give the police a good idea where to look.

2) CCTV cameras are aimed all over high streets. Maybe PC Big Brother could spare a few wide angle cameras to point up and around approach paths, to record the light show from different positions. If a l@ser's bright enough to dazzle, then it should be seen off-axis in scattered light. Comparing the images from a few cameras should get a 10-100-m accurate launch position.

Dedicated wide-angle video monitoring of the approach path to city airports from a few cameras spread out along 4-5 miles could give this kind of information too.

3) Or arm PCs with cameras and ask them to take pictures of beams they see, and note position and time. Even appeals to the public to snap beams with their phones, and record where and when, might help.

Like (2) this would give forensic evidence, not real time detection, but in some cases the police officer could get lucky and see or find the laser start point.

Of course, in all these cases, someone's got to do the geometry to extract the evidence.

4) As the Teeside case shows, a police helicopter, with excellent cameras is probably the best way to home in on the perpetrator. Given the potential danger of dazzling l@sers, along with a shared interest in flight safety, police helicopter crews would hopefully be willing to break off whatever they're doing to help, and be the fastest and most skilled way to gather prompt evidence and get convictions.

I presume operators groups and BALPA are lobbying to have this issue taken seriously nationwide, and to put a priority on police resources to respond to l@zer reports before the perpetrators get bored with the game.

In the cockpit: I'm not a doctor, but I'm pretty confident there would be no lasting damage. Consciously look away and you should be OK, and bear in mind the subconscious natural tendency to track your eyes to a bright light.

[Rollingthunder]

A man who shone a laser pen at a police helicopter, dazzling the pilot, has received a suspended sentence.

"Glen Porter, 20, of St Augustine's Road, Ipswich, admitted using the laser pen from an Ipswich nightclub car park.

The town's crown court heard how the pilot, who was searching for a missing child, had to take a sharp turn because of a "green and blinding light".

Porter, who had admitted endangering an aircraft, received a 20-week jail term, suspended for 18 months.

Cannabis warning

The court heard Porter, who pleaded guilty at an earlier hearing, had smoked cannabis shortly before the offence on 27 April and had been in hospital four times for a mental health problem brought on by use of the drug."
bbc


I would hazard the mental health problems were present before use of the cannabis. Sentence not long or servere enough.

[AMEandPPL]

I would hazard the mental health problems were present before use of the cannabis. Sentence not long or severe enough.

Totally agreed . . . . . on both those points.

[magpienja]

"suspended sentence"

When an earth is going on, what deterrent does that show, when will the judiciary wake up.

Nick.

[adamnaylor]

I use a green 5mW laser to educate my kids about astronomy - I make damned sure there are no airplanes in the field of vision at the time.

My kids (twins aged 5) love to see the e.g. "there is Orion" (pointing with laser pointer).

Should I be banned from doing this?

I'm sure this post will be followed by a load of "how did you know there were no airplanes in the area" posts, but I'm open to suggestions. I do try hard to make sure I'm not shining a light into the sky when there may be a pilot up there. We're well off any flightpaths here in the sticks. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

[awblain]

adamnaylor #120,

You're far from alone in using 5mW class pointers - #41 does, and my #63 also describes uses of potentially dangerous 10-100W yellow lasers by professional astronomers to measure and correct their images for atmospheric turbulence (certified and regulated by the FAA in the US).

If you can see an aircraft's strobes, then the crew could see your laser. I think we should leave it to you to use your judgement and turn the laser off or away if and when you see an aircraft. Pointers are used to point for a crowd. That means witnesses, and so while you should keep a lookout for aircraft, you're not going to be in trouble for legitimate use.

Human spotters with dead-man's handle kill switches are the safety system for telescopes' 10-100W sounding lasers: if strobes are seen within 25 degrees of the beam, then the light is shuttered immediately: see http://www2.keck.hawaii.edu/optics/lgsao/docs/kaon361.pdf for one set of protocols.

Added thread link, Oct 30th: best discussion of the appearance and risks I've seen so far in
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/320314-l-ser-searchlight-attacks-aircraft-incl-prison-sentences-offenders.html#post3704281 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/320314-laser-searchlight-attacks-aircraft-incl-prison-sentences-offenders.html#post3704281).

Credit to the site for tying it in at the bottom of this thread.

I assume the blinding effect of scattering from scratches on the windows is less of an issue for airliners with glass cockpit windows than for the police helicopters described on the linked thread.

[lasernigel]

Seem to remember posting two to three years ago on this subject,unfortunately being shot down in flames by someone with a little knowledge of lasers.
Like TheotherSimon as my avatar suggests I work on lasers. 30 years experience of which 18 years purely on medical lasers. At the moment on lasers for the treatment of diabetics. So in contact with most of the top guys in the field.
Pan retinal photocoagulation uses on standard lasers a power of around 120 -220mW at an exposure of 0.10S(edited wrong exposure time,not 0.01S,sorry) to achieve a blanching effect(dependent on pigmentation) inside the eye for diabetic retinopathy.This is a focussed beam at about 300-400 microns.
As TheotherSimon says and his maths is not wrong beam divergence at that distance comes into play,plus the 'blink reflex' of the eye is also a factor.
Not in any way condoning these idiots as it must be a distraction. Studies done at Dundee university after the spate of attacks on bus drivers concluded no permanent damge was done to the eye, and the distance between laser,drivers mirror and driver is a lot less than most of the 'air attacks'.

[AMEandPPL]

Still no more responses to the question / answer posed in posts # 109 and # 110 . . . . . . . .

If a 737 pilot experiences a laser incident on take-off what is the most prudent action to take?

lasernigel seems to be concurring that serious or permanent damage is very unlikely. Do others agree that report to ATC, but continue flight once airborne is prudent ?

[SR71]

I was "l@zered" twice on short finals in 4 days 3 weeks ago...

ATC and Police informed both times.

No doubt the yobs are still at large.

:{

I'm pleased to hear what lasernigel says although I still won't take any chances...

[Bearcat]

SR, where did you get done?

[Chambudzi]

2 sepparate SIA aircraft were green l@sered on short finals at Mali - Maldives last month. The l@ser was used by someone on a boat.
Seems to be happening all over the show.

[Rainboe]

Adam, I am an astronomer too and a pilot. Absolutely no problem using lasers as long as you just make sure you are steering clear of aeroplanes. If you can't see aeroplanes well, the effect of the laser is unlikely to be severe. You really have to be specifically targeting the cockpit to really hit the windows, so idly pointing out objects in the sky is realistically no danger whatsoever.

[mercurydancer]

Earlier this week, Mr Ben Vout, unemployed, from Clevleand, UK, appeared before magistrates court charged with endangering two aircraft, a KLM flight into Durham Tees Valley and the police helicopter which was dispatched to search for him.

The court decided that the matter was so serious that it would need referral to Crown Court. I dont want to concern Mr Vout unduly, but Mr Big Bubba from cell 39A finds him quite attrractive.

[rhythm method]

Some little git decided it would be fun to shine one at our flight out of LPL tonight. Thankfully I wasn't looking directly at it at the time, but I was shocked at how powerful and bright it was (the entire cockpit lit up and it was quite dazzling). We informed ATC immediatley, and I really hope they catch the culprit, before something nasty happens. :mad:

[kotakota]

I was green-l@sered last night landing in Muscat , 2nd time in a month . The Police are keen to catch the person and I am helping them with coordinates etc .
The problem , as usual , is the open sale of the l@zers in various outlets.

[the_stranger]

@Rhythm Methode (http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/339649-another-laser-attack-7.html#post4494760)
We too got "l@sered" while on radar vectors into London City on tuesday. At 4000ft overflying a village we noticed a green light and seconds after it was directed at our cockpit and following us for a time. Allthough the light was moving erraticly all ver the cockpit (due to the enlarged effect of an unsteady hand), the spread of the ligth at that altitude was enough to keep the cockpit in a nice shade of green all the tim ethe ligth was pointed at us. We were also amazed by the brightness, allthough as far as we were concerned, it did not harm our sight, but then again, we did not look straight into it.

Offcourse reported it to ATC, but since it came from the middle of a village (which name I do not know), I do not have any doubt nothing will happen and that green light will be seen more often. It probably was an "innocent" "oops-I-did- not-know-it-had-that-effect" thing, but people should know better then pointing a laser (of any light) at an aircraft....

[Coconutty]

e-Bay have announced :


Hazardous materials policy – l@zer pointers
From 1st November we'll be extending our Hazardous Materials (http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/hazardous-materials.html) policy to include l@zer pointers.
Listings of hand-held lasers with an output of more than 1mW are generally not permitted on eBay. The only exceptions to this policy are club/disco/'rave' type l@zers, which may generally be listed, even if their output is greater than 1mW. For further information on l@zer safety, please visit the HPA (http://www.hpa.nhs.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1195733794576?p=1158934607693) website.

Of course the more powerful types can stil be purchased while on holiday and be brought back home in a suitcase of course, but at least e-Bay seem to be showing a responsible attitude :D

Meanwhile I would suggest that all pilots subject of such "attacks" that are of concern to them, report the details to ATC, asking that the information is passed to local Police - after all the offence of "Endangering an aircraft" is an "Arrestable offence" which the Police should be keen to deal with ( and improve their detection figures ;) ).

Now here's a novel idea - why don't ATC collate all these reports and pass them on to the local Police Air Support Unit - who are the most likely Police department to take notice and do something about it - especially if there is a pattern of attacks that can be identified ( e.g. at a certain time from the same location etc ) :ok:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d129/coconut11/Coconutty.jpg

[barrymung]

I had a laser pointer shone in my eyes whilst driving my car at night. Not only does it "temporarily" blind you it chuffing hurts!

I still had problems seeing properly the next morning but the effects soon wore off.

[barrymung]

Adam, how did you know there were no planes in the area, etc..?

;)

[llondel]

What's needed is a decoy aircraft with a steerable and powerful laser on it. When problems are reported, get the decoy to fly an approach and if it gets illuminated from the ground, automatically target its own laser on the source and give the perp a taste of what it's like to be on the receiving end.

[Anti-ice]

...and perhaps drop something on the perpetrator that feels like a plane crash - perhaps that will have these idiots running to mummy..

It needs new legislation
A) The sale of these items needs to be restricted including auction sites, with the capability they have,something similar to firearms laws.
B) Regarding the treatment of the people who choose to aim these at airliners; After all, what can they hope to achieve by doing this, erh.. bring the airliner down.
Therefore minimum 20 years, no parole to life.
It is in effect,attempted mass murder - and sentencing should reflect that.

[ankh]

> how did you know there were no planes in the area, etc..?

See and avoid works well under the conditions described: astronomy -- night time, dark-adapted, clear sky.

Aircraft lights stand out quite well against that background, and you can hear them coming early enough to close the shutter on the time exposure to avoid having those red and green and white streaks across the picture.

I doubt someone's figured out how to fly silent unlit gliders at night.

Astronomy amateurs wanting to be careful can get the aircraft navigation maps
Area Control Center - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARTCC)
to make sure you're not in a regular flight path, and those will also give you the areas where flight is controlled, a good way to tell where to expect airplanes regularly.

Handy site:
AeroPlanner.com (http://map.aeroplanner.com/)

(Purple on the map marks laser operations for aircraft to avoid -- up to 60,000 feet elevation in this example)

Cue Crocodile Dundee: "You call that a laser? THIS is a laser ..."

8/7433 - NM .. LASER RESEARCH SUNSPOT, NM LASER RESEARCH WILL BE CONDUCTED AT APACHE POINT OBSERVATORY ... AT AN ANGLE OF 090 DEGREES FROM THE SURFACE, PROJECTING UP TO 60000 FEET. AVOID AIRBORNE HAZARD BY 5 NAUTICAL MILES. THIS BEAM IS INJURIOUS TO PILOTS/AIRCREWS AND PASSENGERS EYES. ALBUQUERQUE /ZAB/ ARTCC, 505-856-4500, IS THE FAA COORDINATION FACILITY. WIE UNTIL UFN. CREATED: 31 OCT 16:39 2008

[AMEandPPL]

I know that they change from time to time, but why can the PPRuNe powers that be not prevent the adverts I can see ON THIS PAGE right now . . . . .

. . . . . yes, you've guessed it - - - for LASER PENS, from E-BAY.

Example
400mw eXtreme Green Laser (http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BPOrZ7cEMSfzTMIOG0wb9nLjVApKy2WKchtDBCcCNtwHgtg0QARgCIIGS jBA4AFDS_eLJBWC7vq6D0AqyAQ53d3cucHBydW5lLm9yZ7oBCjEyNXgxMjVf anPIAQHaAUVodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBwcnVuZS5vcmcvcnVtb3Vycy1uZXdzLzMz OTY0OS1hbm90aGVyLWxhc2VyLWF0dGFjay03Lmh0bWyAAgGoAwHoA-gF6AOWBegDowP1AwIAAAD1AwQAAACIBAGQBAGYBAA&num=2&adurl=http://www.maxsontechonline.com/ProductDetails.asp%3FProductCode%3DGLX400%26Click%3D694&client=ca-ib_employment_sede_1)
Ultra-High Power, Burning Beam! Free Worldwide Shipping. $1000 (http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BPOrZ7cEMSfzTMIOG0wb9nLjVApKy2WKchtDBCcCNtwHgtg0QARgCIIGS jBA4AFDS_eLJBWC7vq6D0AqyAQ53d3cucHBydW5lLm9yZ7oBCjEyNXgxMjVf anPIAQHaAUVodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBwcnVuZS5vcmcvcnVtb3Vycy1uZXdzLzMz OTY0OS1hbm90aGVyLWxhc2VyLWF0dGFjay03Lmh0bWyAAgGoAwHoA-gF6AOWBegDowP1AwIAAAD1AwQAAACIBAGQBAGYBAA&num=2&adurl=http://www.maxsontechonline.com/ProductDetails.asp%3FProductCode%3DGLX400%26Click%3D694&client=ca-ib_employment_sede_1)

www. maxsontechonline. com (http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=BPOrZ7cEMSfzTMIOG0wb9nLjVApKy2WKchtDBCcCNtwHgtg0QARgCIIGS jBA4AFDS_eLJBWC7vq6D0AqyAQ53d3cucHBydW5lLm9yZ7oBCjEyNXgxMjVf anPIAQHaAUVodHRwOi8vd3d3LnBwcnVuZS5vcmcvcnVtb3Vycy1uZXdzLzMz OTY0OS1hbm90aGVyLWxhc2VyLWF0dGFjay03Lmh0bWyAAgGoAwHoA-gF6AOWBegDowP1AwIAAAD1AwQAAACIBAGQBAGYBAA&num=2&adurl=http://www.maxsontechonline.com/ProductDetails.asp%3FProductCode%3DGLX400%26Click%3D694&client=ca-ib_employment_sede_1)


Associating adverts with the context of the discussion is all very well, but have the owners of this site no scruples AT ALL ?????

[AMEandPPL]

Within the last few days moderators have actually deleted posts in the "Medical and Health" forum, because (allegedly) they contained adverts for a "colour blindness cure". I say 'allegedly' because such a cure is almost certainly impossible and out of the question.

But then on this thread (of all threads ! ) this is what is allowed

Maxson Technologies - Lasers, Security Technology, and just plain fun stuff! (http://www.maxsontechonline.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=4)

Disgusting, shameful, greedy, money-grabbing PPRune bosses - - this is pure and simple DOUBLE STANDARDS.

I'll see myself out . . . . . . . presumably the ban will not be long in coming.

[Sallyann1234]

This high powered 600mw laser is outrageously bright. For those of you not familiar with high powered green lasers, it will blow your mind.

"As advertised on PPRuNE"

[rhythm method]

Ads by Google Cutting Edge Green Lasers
Worlds Most Powerful Handheld Laser North American Service and Warranty
L@serglow: Blue & Green Laser Pointer, Alignment & Lab Lasers (http://www.LaserGlow.com)

I spotted that too and thought it inappropriate, though I suspect the ads are auto-generated to associate with phrases or words in the text.

[HarryMann]

It's not easy to control/specify or moderate those Google ads, that's why a forum I Mod & help Administer doesn't have them... we have much less members than here with much lower wage earners yet find that we can still raise the funds in a day or two after a quick call for donations every year... it's nice to be independent of commercial pressures... ah well!

[Sallyann1234]

The Google Ads don't need to be moderated by the site owner. It is perfectly possible to arrange with Google for certain categories of ads to be excluded.
This already happens e.g. for sites associated with a particular product to prevent advertisements for competitors.
It just needs willingness (a) to do it and (b) to accept a small reduction in income.
I wonder which is the case here?

[Tonic Please]

Hi all,

I thought it would be of interest to some to share another l@zer issue around Heathrow.

Casually listening to my scanner 118.70 - 09L, 19:10, 02/11/08. Green l@ser beam being fired up to jets on approach. Tower asking aircraft for location so police can home in.

...should anybody be interested, of if tower might see this and supply more info to those interested.

Regards :rolleyes:

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Can we not send a couple of Tornado GR4s equipped with Laser-guided munitions to "sort the problem out".

:mad: idiots.

[glad rag]

See posts 139 to 142 before complaining here!:confused::confused::confused:

[Oilhead]

I brought a 767 in from KIAD in the 13th October to LHR about 2100. came out of the hold at OCK and vectored downwind LH for 27L. Then taken north over airport at 5000 to position downwind RH for 27R. Took a green laser light as I started my turn downwind to East from a North heading. Told Director who seemed utterly uninterested. I expected the Fuzz or someone to ask me a few questions when I got to the gate - no one at all.

Guess they are not a big deal after all!

[mustpost]

More
BBC NEWS | Scotland | Edinburgh, East and Fife | Police warning over green lasers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7706251.stm)

[AMEandPPL]

400mw eXtreme Green Laser (http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=Bvjte3UAQSZLZA4S-0wbvx9D1ApKy2WKchtDBCcCNtwHgxQgQARgCIIGSjBA4AFDS_eLJBWC7vq6D 0AqyAQ53d3cucHBydW5lLm9yZ7oBCjEyNXgxMjVfanPIAQHaAUdodHRwOi8v d3d3LnBwcnVuZS5vcmcvcnVtb3Vycy1uZXdzLzM0OTQxNC1tb3JlLWxhc2Vy cy1hcm91bmQtbGhyLTguaHRtbIACAagDAegDlgXoA-gF6AOjA_UDAAAAAPUDBAAAAIgEAZAEAZgEAA&num=2&adurl=http://www.maxsontechonline.com/ProductDetails.asp%3FProductCode%3DGLX400%26Click%3D694&client=ca-ib_employment_sede_1)
Ultra-High Power, Burning Beam! Free Worldwide Shipping. $1000 (http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/pagead/iclk?sa=l&ai=Bvjte3UAQSZLZA4S-0wbvx9D1ApKy2WKchtDBCcCNtwHgxQgQARgCIIGSjBA4AFDS_eLJBWC7vq6D 0AqyAQ53d3cucHBydW5lLm9yZ7oBCjEyNXgxMjVfanPIAQHaAUdodHRwOi8v d3d3LnBwcnVuZS5vcmcvcnVtb3Vycy1uZXdzLzM0OTQxNC1tb3JlLWxhc2Vy cy1hcm91bmQtbGhyLTguaHRtbIACAagDAegDlgXoA-gF6AOjA_UDAAAAAPUDBAAAAIgEAZAEAZgEAA&num=2&adurl=http://www.maxsontechonline.com/ProductDetails.asp%3FProductCode%3DGLX400%26Click%3D694&client=ca-ib_employment_sede_1)
BBC News might care to follow-up on the story of another aircraft inbound to EGPH being endangered by a laser beam shone at it . . . . . .

. . . . . . by reporting to the whole nation that the self-same lasers are being openly advertised for sale on the best known Professional Pilots' web-site in the world !

:ugh:

[Ex Cargo Clown]

World's Most Powerful
Handheld Green Lasers! Beam Visible For Miles, Burn Through Plastic

A moderator or webmaster needs to change the filters on Google ads for this site. It's ridiculous.

[AMEandPPL]

A moderator or webmaster needs to change the filters on Google ads for this site

The ads are STILL there . . . . . and changing the thread title for the third or fourth time doesn't fool anyone at all.

:ugh:

[Sick Squid]

Despite the rather sniping nature of the above posts, don't for a minute think this hasn't gone unnoticed amongst the moderators. As one who was targeted and temporarily blinded in one eye by a high-powered green laser recently, leading to two trips to the local eye clinic, I for one am particularly uncomfortable with this situation. There is a debate running in the moderators Admin forum on this issue, and has been for some time.

However, the selective banning of ads that fall outwith a definite category seems to be slightly more complicated than it would appear. Must admit, that slightly amazes me, a relative computer illiterate, considering we can put a man on the moon etc. etc. However, it seems to be the case.

Perhaps one of the sites new owners would care to comment with more authority. Meanwhile, those of us moderators who actually work in the industry share the concerns about the anachronistic nature of such adverts appearing on this, and similar threads.

Squid

[ChristiaanJ]

Hummm..

I doubt somehow that the average chav "playing" with these "toys" is even aware of the existence of PPRuNe.

So, having all these ads pop up, whenever the topic subject matter contains the word "l@ser", may well be a good thing for US, because it alerts us to how much of this sh!t is now readily available and widely advertised.
"Ads by Google" does not just 'supply' PPRuNe with ads, you know!!

[awblain]

Come on... lasing chavs don't (couldn't?) read this text-based site.
Banning ads here won't impact availability of these devices around the world.
Dealing with offenders requires law enforcement not ad bans.
MOST IMPORTANTLY PROPER SENTENCES.
Thankfully, I think the physics means crews are generally safe from permanent injury (unless the scum who shine lasers at them cause a crash.)

As a handheld and professional, FAA-regulated retina-frying laser-using astronomer, and frequent SLF, I want the authorities to fix this.

[AMEandPPL]

Come on... lasing chavs don't (couldn't?) read this text-based site. Banning ads here won't impact availability of these devices around the world

That may be the case, but principles are involved here. I suspect that many eyebrows would be raised high if I allowed adverts for cigarettes on the notice boards in my surgery waiting room.

[DrKev]

I'm not a pilot (though half the family is) but I do have a lot of experience with big research lasers (PhD in Physics, hence DrKev, big class 4 lasers, have given training courses etc.). It has been 8 years since I've worked in physics but here's what I believe to be the current state of things...

A) The sale of these items needs to be restricted including auction sites, with the capability they have,something similar to firearms laws.
B) Regarding the treatment of the people who choose to aim these at airliners

In the UK and US, sale of any of class 3B or class 4 lasers (anything greater than 5mW power) is illegal to the public. If you do know of anyone selling lasers of Class 3B or Class 4 report them to the appropriate authority (department of trade and industry in the UK). If laws are in place in other countries they will be similar. Online sales might also be covered by this but the greatest issue there is one of enforcement. However, there are no laws relating to the USE of the lasers themselves by anyone. I think that needs be changed in a hurry.

It seems that any arrests made over targeting of aircraft were to do with endangering the aircraft and not to do with use of the lasers as such. A few countries are considering classing lasers as weapons, which would mean that all use without a license is forbidden, but I don't know if anybody has gotten around to that yet.


The potential dangers of even 3B lasers are just too great. Even at the lower limit of class 3B, most lasers are many times brighter than the sun (in terms of the amount of energy per unit area). If you were to look directly into a class 3B laser beam, the blink response of the eye cannot act fast enough to prevent (at least temporary) retinal damage.

What sort of exposure pilots would receive in these incidents is likely to be much lower - exposure does of course depend on the beam diameter (they do spread out a bit over distance), not just a simple dependence on output power. That said, to somebody working in a dark-adapted environment, even a wide-beam (5m or 10m, say) low-power laser will almost certainly ruin dark-adaptation and temporarily impair vision. Much the same as what drivers get with oncoming traffic and full headlamps but possibly worse, certainly more distracting, and of course in a much more critical situation.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. Excuse the short delay, we have to hang around up here for 5 or 10 minutes until we can read the instruments clearly again and our night vision has returned. Hope you're enjoying the flight..."


I once got a "shot" from a 150mW laser, smack bang in the centre of vision. Freak accident - microscope slide falling over into the beam, very freakily passed through the beam at exactly the right angle to hit my eye. It was only the weak reflection that got me. The perfectly circular spot in the centre of my vision took two days to vanish (with no permanent damage, thank God) but it DID scare the ever loving crap out of me. Literally.

It went kind of like this....

:) ...... :ouch: ...... :eek: ...... :(


For the record, a class 4 laser is bright enough that even looking at the spot on a wall can damage your vision. Class 4 will also burn skin faster than a lit match, sort of smells like sausages when you do, AND HURTS LIKE :mad::mad::mad::mad: !!!!

[AMEandPPL]

An expert on these things is telling us that

sale of any of class 3B or class 4 lasers (anything greater than 5mW power) is illegal to the public

and yet alongside that post is an advert for the sale of lasers of greater than 400 mW.

It's difficult to believe that one is seeing this on a site so supposedly reputable and responsible as PPRuNe. Very few times I am lost for adequate words . . . . . but this is one of them. I have no arguments with the moderators (well, only a couple), but my disgust at the owners/bosses of the site is getting greater by the day.

[El Grifo]

And where may I ask, did you purchase the offending laser which was responsible for the diversion and resulting delay in scheduled arrival of said aircraft, along with the resulting eye damage to the first officer.

Well milaud, it was advertised on that well known website for professional pilots Pprune :yuk:

[ChristiaanJ]

After what DrKey wrote earlier, I start to agree more and more with the previous posts.

PPRuNe, Google, eBay, and any other "reputable" sites should be made fully aware of this kind of illegal trade, and at least try to eliminate THEIR advertising of such items.

Anything useful we can do from our end?

[Flintstone]

Anything useful we can do from our end?

Yes. Stop writing the word 'l@ser'. The Google software detects it and generates the ads in response.



...changing the thread title for the third or fourth time doesn't fool anyone at all.

I seriously doubt that was the intention. Anyone paying attention would have noticed the thread title changes occured when several threads were merged.

[AMEandPPL]

Yes. Stop writing the word "l***r". The Google software detects it and generates the ads in response

A new page, no mention now of "the word", and the offending ads are gone ! !

What a brilliant chap ! Why couldn't PPRuNe do that, if it was that simple ?

[R04stb33f]

Quote:
Anything useful we can do from our end?
Yes. Stop writing the word 'l@ser'. The Google software detects it and generates the ads in response.
I don't think that works either...

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t328/rosbif_2000/light.jpg

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Sallyann1234]

But the word is still in the thread title at the top of the page.

I did suggest another method, but it appears to have been 'moderated'.

[DrKev]

Honestly, no matter how anachronistic it may seem, advertising for lasers on this thread is the last place we should really be worrying about (how many of us are gonna buy one start shooting at aircraft?). The mods and powers-that-be are working on the issue and it'll be dealt with when it's dealt with. Hell, use the ads as a tool. Find out who's selling, where they are, and then report them.

[AMEandPPL]

Find out who's selling, where they are, and then report them

Would be very happy to do that, but to whom ?

[assymetricdrift]

This has now happened to 2 of my mates in the last week or so.

1 was going into SOU and the other was going into LGW.

For me, it seems as though the entire situation is getting a little bit out of hand here - we as pilots can only ever report when we've seen one, but I somehow doubt that the guilty parties will ever be caught as the area it's coming from can be so large.

But really, in my humble opinion, this is rapidly turning into a major problem.

[AnthonyGA]

Reducing advertising or making the sale of higher-power lasers illegal won't help, because there's a very common source of high-power lasers: CD and DVD players. Both contain lasers that can cause eye damage, and they can be modified to produce even higher powers. The players that can also record are even worse, since they need lasers with still higher powers to handle the recording operation. Such players have long contained warnings on the inside not to overcome safety mechanisms or look at the laser, and the warnings are not just for show.

[Airbubba]

Reducing advertising or making the sale of higher-power l@sers lazer illegal won't help, because there's a very common source of high-power l@sers lazer: CD and DVD players

The new Blu-ray players are a great source of the coveted violet laser diodes:

Blu-ray Reader Dissection by Leslie Wright and Sam Goldwasser - Main Page (http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/Blu-ray/site1/)

I4U News - Exclusive! Sonar Blu-ray Laser by Wicked Lasers (http://www.i4u.com/article7098.html)

[LambOfGod]

I am 16 years old. I am a laser fanatic. I have several different wavelengths and they can light matches. That is power!
I believe I have the right to own them, but sadly there are so many irresposible idiots out there. I plan to become a commercial pilot and a hit to the eye whilst flying could impact my medical, and job.

Even though I am responsible with lasers, idiots are NOT. They also do not understand that shining a laser at an aircraft is no joke. Especialy on finals. I was hesitating at first, but now I have come to agree with the ban of handheld lasers above 1mW to been a restricted import.:D

I was reading through this thread and a pilot said something about wearing sun glasses while flying at night. I'm not sure if he or she were serious. But this will do NOTHING. Sunglasses are to protect the wavelength of UV. I dont need to explain UV here...:=

[theothersimon]

Reducing advertising or making the sale of higher-power lasers illegal won't help, because there's a very common source of high-power lasers: CD and DVD players.


Bollocks. Sorry for the swearword, but I cannot stand inflammatory statements like that. CD and DVD lasers are not high power. Not even close.

Go back and read my posting on the maths of eye damage at altitude. You can overdrive a DVD-R laser to about 20mW, which is nasty if you a a few feet away, but cannot cause damage if you are a few tens of feet away, let alone a few thousand.

The primary reason for the warnings on CD and DVD players is that the lasers are infrared, so you don't have the blink reflex to protect your eyes. Perversely Blu-Ray lasers are safer, as they are visible, and it's really hard to stare into the beam for length of time required for permanent damage.

Simon.

[DrKev]

LambofGod - I apologise in advance because I'm about to rain on your parade. As much as I highly value and encourage curiosity and fun in all things scientific, I'm sorry to say that unless you have had training in the safe use of lasers from an appropriately qualified person I'd be taking your lasers from you. Even at class 3B, the professionals do a lot to limit exposure to the beams, not just for others but for ourselves too, and with very good reason. If the experts do this why should anyone else be exempt? Please, leave the bigger lasers alone unless you are in an appropriate environment, at your age that will either be a school or university teaching lab.


AMEandPPL - I had said in my earlier post that in the UK you can report sellers to the Department of Trade and Industry. Of course the DTI as such no longer exists but the appropriate body is now called the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform (BERR) (UK Dept for Business, Enterprise & Regulatory Reform (http://www.berr.gov.uk))


AnthonyGAReducing advertising or making the sale of higher-power lasers illegal won't help, because there's a very common source of high-power lasers: CD and DVD players.

I'll disagree and say that it certainly will help. I think you greatly overestimate most people's technical skills or inclination to take apart their CD or blu-ray or DVD player and get a working laser out of it. The vast majority will take the obvious (i.e. currently advertised) route and simply buy.

Of course, simply banning the sale of lasers won't help much for the lasers already out there. Banning unauthorised use of lasers, but allowing the sale of them, won't help either. A combination of both approaches would seem like a good place to start. To use a different problem as an example - if we simply ban people from using guns does that mean we can still allow the open, unregulated sale of them?

[ROKNA]

Some sick person is currently flashing a green laser at incoming aircraft into runway 28 in Dublin from somewhere off Howth Head which is just to the left of the flight path.

Still using 28 at the moment only one report in but every lander getting a full warning. To the credit of the ATC in EIDW in the past if there where several reports they have switched the active if possible.

[LambOfGod]

theothersimon - A DVD burner has two diodes, an IR (infra-red) which is probably around 20mw. And, a 650nm (red). If teh DVD burner is say 20X, than you could run a safe current to the diode with an output of 300mW+

I have built a Blu-ray Laser and I think I am getting someone around 100mW's.

NO LASER IS SAFE! unless it's <0.5mW...:ok:

DrKev - I know I should stay away from lasers. Especialy when I dream to be a pilot. If anything happened at my age, I would ofcourse look back at it and say "damn I was irresponsibe".
But to assure you;

I have some safety glasses on there way,
I do not use lasers irresposibly, and
I have had no physical training, although I am a member of a laser forum which has provided me with very helpful safety info.

[Airbubba]

I have some safety glasses on there way

Just remember, those safety glasses tend to be specific to a certain type of laser, you probably need more than one set if you're experimenting with DPSS lasers. The familiar orange safety glasses for a 532 nm laser won't provide much protection in the 650 nm range.

[admiral ackbar]

Heads up, some muppets around CYUL...

CTV.ca | Montreal pilots flashed with laser during landings (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20081111/montreal_pilots_laser_081111/20081111?hub=TopStories)

[overstress]

Presumably if you're not looking out (ILS) until minimums you're OK?

[Jofm5]

From the aviation Herald:- The Aviation Herald (http://avherald.com/h?article=410991aa&opt=0)

Accident: American MD82 near Austin on Nov 22nd 2008, green laser injures crew member

By Simon Hradecky, created Monday, Nov 24th 2008 16:22Z, last updated Monday, Nov 24th 2008 16:22Z
An American Airlines McDonnell Douglas MD-82, flight AA479 from Dallas Ft. Worth,TX to Austin,TX (USA), was on approach to Austin approximately 10nm out, when an intense green laser was flashed at the cockpit. The crew managed to land their airplane safely despite one crew member received eye injury and had to be transported to a hospital.

[Weapons_Hot]

A quick question:
In the majority of posts in this thread, "l@ser" is used instead of "L*SER" which is the acronym for Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation - why is this?





Edited. Please let's not go through this again.

Duck

[C172 Hawk XP]

Look at posts # 161 and #162. Google adverts were previously being generated for the very items being complained about ! Interesting to note that the PPRuNe software has NOT automatically substituted "the word" when you put it in capitals, though !

[skridlov]

I haven't read the preceding pages of posts, just the last page which makes me wonder what on earth this thread is about... but...
Walking along the south bank of the Thames in the early evening near the Superfluous Inverse Meniscus a couple of weeks ago I was surprised to see at least two enormously powerful lasers projecting into the sky at variable angles. These seem to be extremely close to flightpaths at London City.
What's the deal here?

[Jofm5]

Skridlov,

The lasers you are on about a from the Greenwich Royal observatory and marks the prime meridian:-

BBC News | UK | Laser lights up London sky (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/568479.stm)
Prime Meridian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Meridian)

I am not qualified to say but I would imagine that discussion/permission from the CAA regarding issues were sorted out beforehand - the laser has been there since 98 with no issues reported that I can find.

Cheers

[shortfinals]

Forgive the ignorance, but exactly what recreational use do lasers have in the hands of private individuals (as opposed to organisations that do Son et Lumiere)?

Maybe Lambofgod could elucidate?

Edit: I didn't write laser with an @ symbol in it, but it got converted on posting. What's going on here?

Another edit; re-read the thread and apply a bit of lateral thinking re-Google adverts. Not an elegant solution, more of a sticking plaster, but it is working. If only you had any idea the grief we went through to get to THAT solution....

Squid

[shortfinals]

Thanks Squid, and sorry for my slow brain.

But where's Lambofgod to tell me what the hell he does with l@sers for fun? I take it fun is what he's talking about if he says he uses them harmlessly?

[Ten West]

... I know I should stay away from l@sers. Especialy when I dream to be a pilot. If anything happened at my age, I would ofcourse look back at it and say "damn I was irresponsibe".

Errr... No, you wouldn't. :p

[Finn47]

Incidents seem to be increasing in the US. Anyway, 18 months of federal prison time for a Fresno woman should serve as a warning:

Lasers worry pilots, officers | PressDemocrat.com | The Press Democrat | Santa Rosa, CA (http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20081128/NEWS/811280303/1350?Title=Lasers_worry_pilots__officers)

[CharlieLima]

At least five attempts have been made to dazzle pilots with laser pointers in the skies over Northern Ireland in the last six months, it has emerged.
This is according to the Civil Aviation Authority.
In the most serious incident on 4 August, the captain of a Boeing 737 was hit in the eye with a laser as he made his approach to Belfast City Airport.
On Halloween night, numerous planes - on approach to the same airport - were targeted by a green laser.
Caroline Evans from the British Airline Pilots Association said there have been prosecutions in other parts of the UK.
"The offence, endangering the safety of an aircraft, comes under the Air Navigation Order and carries a custodial sentence," she said.
"We would like to see anybody who is stupid enough to do this, put behind bars and taught a lesson."

Source - BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7758607.stm)

[MagnusP]

Another one, I'm afraid. :(

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Edinburgh, East and Fife | Airline highlights laser dangers (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7765137.stm)

[pubsman]

BBC NEWS | Scotland | Edinburgh, East and Fife | Ninth green laser attack probed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/7773003.stm)

[LambOfGod]

Hey mate, I heard of your laser attack.

Can you describe the laser, was is like someone shining a light in your eyes? Or looking at the clouds on a sunny day after wakeing up and you feel your eye muscles retract and it hurts a bit. Or possibly just a green light shining in the distance.

And were you ferrying this 767? I'm sorry I'm just obsessed with aviation and i'm a laser enthusiast aswell so would like to hear the details...:cool::}

[captainspeaking]

Boy oh boy. If ever there was a reason to put a lower age limit on this forum, then LegofLamb, or whatever his name is, sure provides it.

[ChristiaanJ]

captainspeaking,

Oh come.... I'm older than you, but I can still remember some of the things I did when I was 16.
Like making gunpowder, and producing some very loud bangs? And messing around with perchlorate and sugar, ditto? Or making tiny rocket engines with tamped-down perchlorate and kerosene? Never launched one, but they whizzed down the garden path on little wheels a treat.

I far prefer to see LegofLamb here, and willing to learn how to "play safe", rather than ban the curious and inquisitive "young generation" from this forum.

CJ

[eikido]

If anyone has questions, i have one of those lasers which is stronger than those average lasers used on attacks. How do i know this? It's because i know a lot about lasers and bought it from a trustable source thus i know not to shine on anything but the open sky and sometimes bigger buildings without windows. Mine costs much more than those used with laser attacks. Those cheaper lasers are a bit more dangerous than mine since it leaks a lot of "IR".

I'm a member at this site (http://www.schnappi.tv/).

However! I've stopped using it because the more i read and learn, the more I understand how dangerous they are. I know that they were dangerous before i bought one but it seems as if they are more dangerous than i expected. If i shine on a wall 6 meters away, the reflections (dot) can be dangerous to look at! How about that!

I've seen people shine a laser through a window from the inside of a car! Thats dangerous if you use a stronger laser like 100mw!

Eikido

[Double Zero]

I have posted here before, but was struck by the post " what does it feel like? "

I am a technical photographer, and years ago worked on test ranges recording the results of laser designated bombs.

I had eye protection and a l*ser detector ( from inside a 1950's plywood caravan rather close to the target ) ! -

Snag is, such protection has to be tuned to the frequency of the expected bad guy's kit.

This is a lot different compared to some idiot kid playing with things bought on the 'net - BUT ! this thing was not a weapon, just a designator, but it had a BLINDING - not dazzling - range of 9 miles.

The expert who briefed me had one eye, after a l*ser lab accident - he descibed it as the most unbearable pain he'd ever known, as his eyeball literally exploded.

I suspect the kiddies' version will just give a dazzling effect, if one can resist the instinctive reaction to look towards what's bothering you.

I still don't fancy that on finals, and just to boost your blood pressure a little more, there are deliberate anti-fighter Pilot Incapacitation L*sers ( P.I.L's ) which can seriously dazzle or blind the pilot as set ( seems the same end result to me in a low level aircraft )- even Admiral Sandy Woodward mentions having them on some ships in 1982, but the story goes that they never had a chance to use them, then they were found to contravene the Geneva Convention so binned.

I am sure people who use a gullible 13 year old with a wheelbarrow full of explosives share the same scruples...

Countermeasures are being developed, in the meantime it's up to you guys - I'd have the first officer under something like an 'instrument training hood' for now, whether approaching Birmingham or Basra.

[aeolus0-2]

A Bulgarian immigrant has been charged with shining a hand held laser at the Rescue Helicopter while flying over Caol Fort William en route to refuelling base.
Case will be called in February,suspect out on bail.
Will follow up with court dealings.

[dubh12000]

RTÉ News: Pilots call for handheld laser ban (http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0104/airport.html)

10 reported attacks in DUB since September!


For my own clarification, are we talking about the stronger green lasers here in general, or just those tiny red ones?

[ChristiaanJ]

For my own clarification, are we talking about the stronger green lasers here in general, or just those tiny red ones?This is discussed earlier on in this thread, but you're excused from reading through all 11 pages!

In brief, the 'tiny red ones' used as handheld pointers during lectures are limited to something like 1mW and are considered safe. Much the same applies to the slightly more powerful ones sold for jobs such as levelling a structure on a building site, as they're normally used under controlled conditions.

So yes, we're talking about the stronger green lasers which can be up to 100 to 300 mW, yet be still handheld.... They seem to have a few legal uses, but most now seem to end up with chavs and yobbos using them to burn legs off chairs and put the resulting video on YouTube, or indeed to target aircraft.

CJ

[Finn47]

Those offenders stupid enough to target police helicopters are the most likely ones to get caught, like this one here:

Man charged after laser directed at police helicopter | StarNewsOnline.com | Star-News | Wilmington, NC (http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20090104/ARTICLES/901040269/1004?Title=Man_charged_after_laser_directed_at_police_helico pter_)

[cockney steve]

Just been on BBC radio 2 news.....man in North East England has been jailed for one of these stupid attacks.BBC NEWS | England | Man jailed for 'blinding' pilot (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7811577.stm)


I had to trawl through the BBC site to find it....obviously, the Wedgewood factory's financial problems are far more important :yuk:

[markredgwell]

:sad:A lot of the Trolls using Lasers are using these which are not the Cheap low power pointers nomanly thought of by the public.



These can be seen for over 15 Miles they can burn plastic at 100s of metres distance and are a real hazard to any one flying any where nere these idiots.:mad:

[jamier]

Its about time action was taken on these incidents.

A Teesside man who shone a laser pen into an aircraft, temporarily blinding the pilot, has been sent to a young offenders' institution for four months.

Man jailed for 'blinding' pilot (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7811577.stm)

[Parsnip]

"I had to trawl through the BBC site to find it....obviously, the Wedgewood factory's financial problems are far more important http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/pukey.gif"

Give your head a shake
If you'd turned on your telly instead of surfing you'd have seen it had plenty of prominence in the News programmes. I doubt the people at Wedgwood would complain if they weren't on the News either

[glad rag]

A lot of the Trolls using Lasers are using these which are not the Cheap low power pointers nomanly thought of by the public.

You mean these??

[AMEandPPL]

It is truly outrageous that more adverts for these devices are being permitted here, as in the commercial link in the post above. The same link has now been in place in post #217 above for well over 24 hours. After all the problems there were a couple of months ago with the Google ads, how can PPRuNe leave these links in place ?

In the Medical forum "commercial links" get deleted forthwith, even when it is just a link to physician information on a medical product. There's double standards somewhere here.

[ChristiaanJ]

AMEand PPL,
Direct adverts for these 'things' have already been eliminated by the mods.
The links in the latest posts were there simply to illustrate what sort of things are unfortunately still available on the open market without any sort of license.

So I think you're vastly overreacting.
You don't really think these morons 1) read PPRuNe and 2) need it to find their 'toys', when undoubtedly they find them either by word of mouth, or simply via Google.

You could do worse than read some of the "reviews" of the various models on that site. Such as "wow, burns through plastic right across the room", "lights matches across the room", "burns through a ream of copy paper", "aiming spot visible even over more than a mile", "great for pointing into the sky", "great for popping balloons", "my friends were very impressed".....

No mention anywhere of any "useful" uses. Just playthings to impress the boys. And since there's so little you can do with them, you can even see how some of these cretins have come up with the idea of shining them at aircraft.

CJ

[Richard Taylor]

Seems half the ned population of Aberdeen have bloody lasers...

Police investigating two incidents between 6 & 6.30pm where two pilots reported having lasers shone at them.

Thankfully, so said the news, both planes landed safely (avoiding the obligatory school on the way...:rolleyes:)

Why the hell can these tw@ts still get their hands on these things? :ugh:

[SLFguy]

There are more than 4 neds in Aberdeen...trust me on this one.

[Di_Vosh]

This is what it's taken for us down in Oz to take these items seriously...

Gabba laser lout faces fine after cricketer targeted | The Courier-Mail (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24914221-952,00.html)

Point them at aircraft, and it sometimes gets a mention in the news. But it's got to be pointed at a sportsman to get action from the government/police.

DIVOSH!

[Rickenbacker69]

Is it too much to hope for that someone points one at an armed aircraft, that can return fire? :)

[MightyGem]

Did I read recently that there's been a change in the law, where the offence now is that of purely shining a laser at an aircraft? In other words there is no longer a requirement to try and prove that the aircraft was being endangered.

[galvonager]

Why do y'all spell the word with a '@'? I tried searching the forum to see how it started, but apparently it is not findable that way. Is this perhaps the reason?

[Duck Rogers]

It's not the posters spelling it that way, the site software converts it to '@' to avoid generating Google ads for them.

Duck

[Biggles225]

Thats a good trick!
And the ad for 'Electronic Flight bags' has me thinking 'Airplane' :uhoh:

[LambOfGod]

I live in aus and am a fan of 'them'. You already know if you've read through the thread.
But that cricketer didn't get all that much publicity, only becuase it was actualy cought on camera it was 'shown'...

But what dissapoints me is that a 'pointer' is illegal to import but lab and modules are not. I think the ownership and usage should be tightened the hell up. I know I own them and I don't have a permit, but stuff it I'm not going to get a permit. Unless they are free:ok:But then me and the 'irresponsibles' will get alot more.

Well I'd rather have flying lessons:)

[Double Zero]

I take it the flying lessons would include being blinded at some stage of your landing, albeit with the luxury of knowing there's a safety pilot ready to take over ?

Better make it a strong 'dose' to leave temporary effects even after landing, as some have suffered.

As pointed out earlier on this thread, what the hell do you do with the things ?

I can imagine about 5 minutes of ' gee, I've got a laser just like in the films ' but after that it's useless - leading to stupid acts like pointing at aircraft.

I've seen much the same thing with people who bought high speed radio controlled cars - after a while of go straight, go left, go right, they ended up deliberately crashing the things just 'for fun'.

These l*sers can't be cheap - why not get something you'll probably get a lot more enduring fun out of, like a r/c aircraft - you're obviously vagueley into aircraft to find this site.

[LambOfGod]

Well, I dont use them that much, and I'm not gonna buy anymore. Although I was into building electronics. The only interesting thing I built was a Blu-Ray laser. I'm over electronics now but it was quite satisfying to build.

And for your info, there is some science in it. I bet you dont know anything about frequency doubling crystals to change wavelength's (don't ask me to explain it). Or maybe even coherent light. But you might becuase you could be a pilot, and most pilots know about science and particualy physics. (As I'v been told)

And
- I have an RC aircraft -

Z I N G



I'm not gonna defend lasers anymore, destroy them all. Unless they are in the hands of professionals. And don't call me a hypocrite...:suspect:

[Double Zero]

So it could be said you've ' seen the light ' !!!

A fair response overall, and I bet the r/c aircraft gives more lasting fun.

Who knows, what with whatever you learn from that, if followed up, and interest in electronics, it could lead into an aviation career, either ground or air crew...

You're at the age when you can decide if that's what you want to do, though I imagine opportunities might be even more limited where you are.

In which case I wish you the best of luck - meanwhile if practicable please spread the gospel among other l@ser users. DZ

[transilvana]

Be careful on approching Beirut on RWY 16 or 17 final, there are several mother f....ers pointintig with green lasers to aircarft, I had 2 of them on approaches last week at night very disturbing.

I reported it to tower and ground crews, you want to know the answer? You are lucky they didn´t shoot you with a missile!!!!

You know who is going back to Beirut? not me...

[727gm]

Approaching SMO VOR (Santa Monica) on a SFO-LAX leg on Xmas eve 2005, we were illuminated by a green laser at between 10000 and 7000 feet from the Brentwood/UCLA area. I considered reporting it, but the FO had a flight to catch to Charlotte and home, and was adamant he didn't want anything to delay him getting home by Christmas morning. Oh well, what the hell.

[LambOfGod]

Double Zero (http://www.pprune.org/members/136637-double-zero)

I tell people not to use them irresponsibly, most importantly involving aircraft in my oppinion. I tell them why it is so dangerous. At a Laza forum I am a member of, most users use them resposibly as they are important to them. However, some come along that don't seem to get it, they only want to annoy people. These people do not last long and are banned. Although a ban isn't much, it gets rid of them and keeps them away from all that info...

...They're obviously not smart enough to find it elsewhere:)

[Busbar]

I have been the 'victim' of these l@ser beams being pointed at my aircraft. For the previous two summers in a row, flying the approach into the greek island of Zakinthos at night some moron has shone a green l@ser beam right into the flight deck of the aircraft.

I reported it to ATC on every occasion and they mumbled that they would pass it to the authorities. When I spoke to the english dispatcher down there he said it was a re-occuring problem and reports were being filed every week!!! He said it was normally from a local night club where boozed up brits think it's a funny game to shine these l@sers at aircraft on the approach! :=

When I asked him why the police had not clamped down on this, particularly as they had a good idea of the source of the problem, he said they found it difficult to pin point the exact culprit and catching them at the right time, during the act so to speak! :ugh:

Why is this place not closed down or people searched before entry? It might be a bit extreme but people's lives are at stake here. In my opinion they need to take a much harder line on this.

What moron's, hope they fall off a cliff whilst pi**ed up! :mad:

[Shaft109]

actual video of an event


YouTube - Green laser pointer shone at police helicopter (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nUpmLbkzyEI)

[Bus Junkie]

A guy who lit me and three others, including the police helicopter looking for him, just got 3 years in the clink.

[Whiskey Papa]

Bus Junkie,

How can the courts dish out sentences like that - it's effectively multiple attemped murder!

Can the judiciary not see that this brings the whole system into disrepute?

WP

[LambOfGod]

Yeah dude, there everywhere. 300mW+ is easy from a 22X DVD burner drive.

I'm sure if countries were serious enough, which they aren't. They would have DVD drive laws. Like special diodes that explode when force is applied to them or something...:ok:

[repariit]

12 flights were illuminated with a green laser while landing at SeaTac. All of them landed without incident. No pilot injuries reported. Authorities are seeking to determine the source of the laser.

[Blowchowski]

Someone shining laser at planes landing at Sea-Tac
Twelve different flight crews reported that someone was shining a laser into their cockpits as the aircrafts were making their final approach Sunday evening at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport.

By Seattle Times staff

Twelve different flight crews reported that someone was shining a laser into their cockpits as the aircraft were making their final approach Sunday evening at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport.

Pilots reported seeing the laser between 7:10 and 7:30 p.m. as they came in for landing, said Mike Fergus, a spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration's Northwest Mountain Region, headquartered in Renton. All of the planes were at an altitude of 1,200 to 1,500 feet and one of the pilots "had a fairly decent description of where the source was," Fergus said. No suspects were found and all of the planes landed safely.

The FBI and Transportation Security Administration are investigating.

Shining a laser at an airplane is a federal offense.

Copyright © 2009 The Seattle Times Company

[Love_joy]

Next months issue is all about casting your own ceramic guns using your old printer so you can effortlessly slip through the security gates....

I was hit a few months ago on final approach to CDG on the westerlies, approx 4 miles out on finals. They got us, the one infront and the one behind. The police chopper found nothing unfortunately.

I wanted to wring the little ***** neck

[bugg smasher]

ON 2 MILE FINAL RY 16L/R AT (SEA): ASA367 AND 12 ADDITIONAL AIRCRAFT REPORTED BEING STRUCK BY A GREEN LASER BETWEEN 1200-1500FT ON A 2 MILE FINAL TO RY'S 16L & 16R AT SEA. LASER CAME FROM THE LEFT OF THE AIRCRAFT. SEA PD NOTIFIED. NO REPORTS OF INJURIES. 2/23 0312Z TXT SENT: LASER GROUP, 600, 500, AOV, 100S, S/AEG

[repariit]

Last evening another green laser incident in Seattle, Horizon Air on final to SEA from PDX, about 6:30 pm. The FBI and Seattle Police are attempting to catch the perpetrator. They suspect an airport noise sensitive person to be involved. Here is a news link: Video | KING5.com | News for Seattle, Washington (http://www.king5.com/video/?z=y&nvid=337291)

[AnthonyGA]

Another case of someone on the ground pointing a laser at a helicopter, only this guy was so stupid that he pointed it at a news helicopter and continued to blaze away even as the camera crew aboard the aircraft recorded his crime. His mom says he didn't know what he was doing (he's 57!). He said he was annoyed by the helicopter.

See

Blinded by the Light, Helicopter Crew Targeted by Laser Pointer|ABC 7 News (http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0209/598440.html)

[The Real Slim Shady]

Why are the lasers green?

I was targeted by a muppet with a green laser in the UK.

[rotornut]

Another one, this time at YYZ:

CP24- Laser beam aimed into passenger jet cockpit - CTV News, Shows and Sports -- Canadian Television (http://www.cp24.com/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20090304/090304_laser_beam/20090304/?hub=CP24Home)

Re green lasers: There are also red lasers. It seems the more powerful ones are green.

[tunalic2]

We got zapped on the way into Dublin a few months back, we learnt the next day that he got caught as he pointed it at the police helicopter which went to investigate!:ok: