L@ser attacks on Aircraft [Archive] - Page 2

xetroV

20th Jul 2009, 13:24

Article from 7 July:
U.K. Pilots Demand Police Crackdown on Laser Attacks (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601102&sid=apBDCMVG5BGE)

July 7 (Bloomberg) -- U.K. pilots are calling for the government to invest in new technology to help curb laser-beam attacks on airliners after the number of incidents rose sevenfold last year.

The British Airline Pilots Association has written to Transport Secretary Andrew Adonis asking him to ensure that police forces are equipped with state-of-the-art equipment that can locate the origin of laser beams directed at planes.

So-called laser guns, some no bigger than ballpoint pens, can be bought for as little as 10 pounds ($16.20) from Web sites and convenience stores, Balpa said. There were 206 reported incidents of beams being directed at pilots last year, mostly on takeoff or landing, compared with 29 in 2007, it said.

“It’s happening all the time now, at a rate of about four or five times a week,” London-based Balpa spokesman Keith Bill said in a telephone interview. “It’s climbing again this year. It’s an epidemic fad.”

Pilots are being targeted at almost all U.K. airports, including London’s Heathrow, Gatwick and Stansted, Bill said. Six people have been imprisoned in Britain after being convicted over laser-related incidents, he said.

“The government takes any threat to aviation safety extremely seriously,” the Department for Transport said in an e-mailed statement. “There are already strong sanctions in place to deal with those who endanger aircraft in this way and we are in contact with the Civil Aviation Authority about what further action can be taken on this issue.”
Apparently moronic actions are pretty contagious. :oh:

This is a crisis

23rd Jul 2009, 17:43

It appears from the latest ATSIN that has been issued that airport Visual Control Rooms are now, in Europe anyway, becoming the target for laser 'attacks'.

Not quite on the same danger scale as for pilots landing but certainly a serious risk for ATCOs.

rottenray

25th Jul 2009, 04:13

Crisis Writes:
" It appears from the latest ATSIN that has been issued that airport Visual Control Rooms are now, in Europe anyway, becoming the target for l@ser 'attacks'.

Not quite on the same danger scale as for pilots landing but certainly a serious risk for ATCOs. "

Quite the same danger, if not more - knock a few of our venerable controllers out at the same time, what happens to the traffic they're handling?

I wouldn't think it's a smooth handoff, like "I have to go pee, back in a few" or whatever.

Blinding several of you at one time could be a serious issue, especially if anything odd happens to be going on at the same time.

.

swedefly

29th Jul 2009, 11:30

We had the same experience with green laser during this past week. While on ILS 25R into UUEE (23:45 lcl) we got the laser beem into the cockpit roughly 11 NM from the threshold.

:ok:

eastern wiseguy

29th Jul 2009, 13:03

The Belfast TMA has had a lot of these attacks in the past week.....including the Police Helicopter!!

Philflies

30th Jul 2009, 09:23

Just out of interest, why is the word laser spelt 'l@ser' throughout this thread ?

Phil

ChristiaanJ

30th Jul 2009, 09:49

Phil,
The ads on PPRuNe (from a separate ad-server) are "context-sensitive".
Mention pilot handbooks in the thread, and you may see an ad from a bookshop, for instance.
When this thread started, we were bombarded with ads for precisely the things (hand-held l@sers and suchlike) we were saying should be banned. So PPRuNe now treats it as a dirty word, and systematically substitutes "l@ser".

CJ

eastern wiseguy

30th Jul 2009, 10:46

Further to my post of yesterday. We had the idiots out again last night. The Police Heli took the brunt of the attacks. I was impressed when I asked if he could give me an approximate location(for the MOR paperwork) and he was able to give me the EXACT address(DOWN TO HOUSE NUMBER AND STREET) and number and sex of ALLEGED perpetrators. :ok:

I do hope the scumbags are arrested.

mercurydancer

31st Jul 2009, 21:51

I completely agree that anyone who deliberately shines a coherent light beam at an aircraft should be jailed.

However, whilst I am not a fnantical astronomer it is pleasant to take the telescope out on clear nights and see what is out there. Laser sights are really most useful in acquring a good position and the more coherent the light then the better the alignment. I have both red and green lasers but there is a flight path due south of me so although I try to be careful it is possible I might shine a laser at about a right angle to an aircraft on approach to an airport.

I would apppreciate some comments about this -

Is even a momentary exposure enough to cause problems?

Does a laser have much effect at oblique angles?

In general do astronomical lasers cause problems? ( I dont mean the huge things that professional observatories have but simple domestic set ups such as I have)

ChristiaanJ

31st Jul 2009, 22:33

mercurydancer,

While I'm still not too clear about the use you amateur astronomers make of l@aser pointers (could you explain a bit more?).....

I would assume...
- you point it towards a sky object, be it a planet, a star or a galaxy, and it then would remain steady, or at the most waver a bit while you're searching, then follow the 24 hour movement of astronomical objects.
- you would not point it towards an aircraft or suchlike, and try to follow it.

In that case...
- the beam, being coherent and very narrow, would be unlikely to "hit" an aircraft,
- even in the unlikely case of an aircraft exactly crossing your steady beam, the "flash" would be so short as not to matter.

It would seem from what I've read that you amateur astronomers get some use out of l@ser pointers to the sky.

All the more regrettable that the current crowd of criminal users will probably soon result your 'amateur' use being classed as criminal as well.

CJ

Fatty

31st Jul 2009, 22:49

mercurydancer

I have been on the wrong end of a laser many times.

Yes, a momentary exposure will be very noticeable, even an oblique angle is enough to be distracting. At the wrong time, distracting enough to be dangerous.

However, I do not think that one used for astronomy, and presumably shone straight up at the heavens would cause any more than a fleeting "what was that"?

If you use your laser for astronomy regularly, why not get a NOTAM issued?

The aircraft must be intentionally targeted for the (UK) law to have been broken.

Note that by "intentionally" I mean intending to shine it at the aircraft, not necessarily intending harm to its occupants.

Fatty.

sooty655

1st Aug 2009, 19:40

Yesterday (31st July), the BBC One Show had an "astronomer" introducing the night sky to a group of "the public", somewhere in Norfolk (I think).

The idiot was waving a hand-held l@ser pointer all over the sky, pointing at various constellations. :eek:

I guess it was probably low powered, but it wasn't exactly a great example for our wonderful national broadcaster to set (again).

Sooty

Jofm5

6th Aug 2009, 16:53

Interesting article including statistics on incidents reported last year about Lasers being pointed at aircraft - 'police to arrest on sight'

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Laser owners 'arrested on sight' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8187503.stm)

glad rag

6th Aug 2009, 18:22

Yesterday (31st July), the BBC One Show had an "astronomer" introducing the night sky to a group of "the public", somewhere in Norfolk (I think).

The idiot was waving a hand-held l@ser pointer all over the sky, pointing at various constellations. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/eek.gif

I guess it was probably low powered, but it wasn't exactly a great example for our wonderful national broadcaster to set (again).

Sooty

:hmm:

Looked at the news, seems the "idiot" did not cause any incidents and the event passed over without any of the bewinged brethern being bothered.

I am actually hoping that some "LAW" comes into force where we astronomers have to apply for a licence to broadcast coherent light into the heavens. What do you say, would a £500 per annum fee satisfy you and all the egoistical freaks who inhabit this board.

Hows that for a rant, Muppet?

sooty655

6th Aug 2009, 19:42

I am actually hoping that some "LAW" comes into force where we astronomers have to apply for a licence to broadcast coherent light into the heavens. What do you say, would a £500 per annum fee satisfy you and all the egoistical freaks who inhabit this board.

I don't see how charging responsible astronomers to use lasers responsibly is going to make any difference. My beef was with the example to the public which was set by using a laser as a clever pointing stick to wave about the sky on a prime time TV programme.

Hows that for a rant, Muppet?

Pretty tame rant by the standards of this board. :p
Who's Muppet?

glad rag

6th Aug 2009, 20:39

Well you got the irony,

"I don't see how charging responsible astronomers to use lasers responsibly is going to make any difference.

My beef was with the example to the public which was set by using a laser as a clever pointing stick to wave about the skyon a prime time TV programme."

Oh.

No you didn't.

http://www.google.fr/images?q=tbn:1Uu4DIVN_p0XlM::cache.reelzchannel.com/assets/content/article/muppets.jpg&h=80&w=80&usg=__Y-5XSaed5LiNf4Pu4iFOZj_rYGw=

Pinkman

7th Aug 2009, 05:42

Well its all over the regional news bulletins in the UK this morning with a BALPA spokeswoman doing her stuff. So that probably means that every tw*t in the country will be down to Radio Shack or wherever you get these things from.:rolleyes:

MagnusP

7th Aug 2009, 07:39

For info; the high-powered (>50W) devices used to create artificial guide stars for astronomy are used in consultation with aviation authorities in order to avoid risk. Pro astronomers don't wave their little torches around the sky, and the big ones would do some serious damage if you got in the way, being some 10000 times more powerful than the usual "pointer" type,

In multi-conjugate adaptive optics, up to 5 artificial guide stars are created by exciting ions in the sodium layer of the atmosphere (at about 90km) with high-powered coherent thingies. It allows systems to compensate for atmospheric turbulence when there aren't any bright enough guide stars in the telescope's field of view.

Tercarley

7th Aug 2009, 09:20

Just needs to be combined with what used to go on voicewise from (not)ATC JFK and there will be real problems. Dont want to say too much but I'm sure most of you know what I mean.

911slf

7th Aug 2009, 11:01

Perhaps it is desirable that anyone wanting a laser above 1 milliwatt - the usual limit in lecture theatres, should need a licence to buy one. Not by any means a complete answer but would help.

MagnusP

18th Aug 2009, 13:32

Maybe the idiots should be taught the salutary (but self-inflicted) lesson learned by a student some years ago at, IIRC, Imperial College. Stares into optical path; "Professor, why is the beam getting fainter?". No permanent damage, fortunately.

AnthonyGA

18th Aug 2009, 16:40

Perhaps it is desirable that anyone wanting a l@ser above 1 milliwatt - the usual limit in lecture theatres, should need a licence to buy one. Not by any means a complete answer but would help.

Just about every home has powerful lasers in it … in CD and DVD players. This is even more true for homes with CD or DVD burners in computers. Both types of lasers are powerful enough to be dangerous to the eyes, and both can be removed and modified into lasers that can be aimed at people and aircraft, unfortunately. A licensing scheme would do nothing to address this problem, although it might serve as a slight deterrent to casual users.

ChristiaanJ

18th Aug 2009, 17:29

Just about every home has powerful lasers in it … in CD and DVD players. This is even more true for homes with CD or DVD burners in computers. Both types of lasers are powerful enough to be dangerous to the eyes, and both can be removed and modified into lasers that can be aimed at people and aircraft, unfortunately. A licensing scheme would do nothing to address this problem, although it might serve as a slight deterrent to casual users.I think you have missed several points in this discussion.

CD and DVD l@sers are still only milliwatt l@sers, and to extract one from a CD or DVD burner, and add the electronics necessary to turn it into a portable l@ser pointer and take it outside, is way beyond the technical knowledge of the pond life that actually perpetrate these attacks.

And why bother, if the "stuff" is still freely available for sale on the internet, eBay or otherwise????

I think you're barking up the wrong tree, even if I freely admit I haven't got a ready-made answer either....

Personally (and it's only me), licensing would go some way, with everything beyond a simple classroom pointer or room measuring device being treated as a deadly weapon, and requiring a license.

But I wonder if repression, with very highly publicised prison sentences, might have more effect? If playing with the latest toy may land you in prison for five years for attemped murder, might most of the chavs think twice? Dunno... what do you think?

CJ

Dr Brian Evans

18th Aug 2009, 17:47

Manchester Evening News

A MAN who shone a laser pen at a police helicopter is facing jail.

Shaun Holt, 22, was outside his home when he pointed the laser at the aircraft's cockpit.

The crew pinpointed his location and officers were sent to the house in West Avenue, Golborne, Wigan.

Police found him with the laser and arrested him. He admitted responsibility and pleaded guilty to recklessly or negligently acting in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft at Liverpool Crown Court.

He was granted bail but warned to expect to be sent to jail when he is sentenced next month.

Holt, who has a 14-month-old son, told the M.E.N: "I think the whole thing has been a bit harsh. I didn't know it was a police helicopter and I was surprised when I got arrested.

"I didn't go out to point at the helicopter - I just bought a laser pointer off a bloke in the street and I was just seeing what it could do - when you get a laser pointer you flash it about.

"If I go to prison it would be a nightmare, I'm normally a responsible person and I'm sorry for what I've done. I feel sort of daft about it."

Judge Henry Globe QC had earlier told Holt that his offence was `coming before the courts with increasing regularity'.

He said: "It is a serious offence. You must understand the likelihood is that the court will pass a custodial sentence."

Latest figures show 28 aircraft were targeted in the north west by people using laser pens during 2008 - including 12 around Manchester Airport. Ten were jumbo jets carrying thousands of passengers.

ChristiaanJ

18th Aug 2009, 20:16

"I didn't go out to point at the helicopter - I just bought a l@ser pointer off a bloke in the street and I was just seeing what it could do - when you get a l@ser pointer you flash it about.

"If I go to prison it would be a nightmare, I'm normally a responsible person and I'm sorry for what I've done. I feel sort of daft about it."

Why not take him at his word for a moment?

Many people see these things being used all the time. Not just as pointers in a lecture hall, but as a l@ser show during a local pop concert, etc. etc.

So how many think they're just "cool" and are totally unaware they're actually fukcing dangerous?

"...when you get a l@ser pointer you flash it about."
I don't have a l@ser pointer, just one of those big torches/flashlights with four D-size batteries (why? all sorts of things, like ten minutes ago I went to check the garden watering pump, which has been acting up - for that sort of thing a penlight torch is perfectly useless).
And sure, I've been shining it down the road to see how far it was visible, and up into the sky when it's humid, to watch the beam.

So, I can understand people who "just flash it about to see what it can do".

Now what?
Would a lot of high-level media publicity about the dangers make 95% of them aware of the risks, and be a lot more careful with their "toys", or would it just encourage a fresh bunch of chavs to buy one and "have a go"?
I honestly don't know.

CJ

Ford Transit

19th Aug 2009, 09:50

Some moron in NZ just got 200 hrs community service for aiming a laser at aircraft from...
the airport view carpark. He got off lightly.

How come all you guys spell it l@ser ?
never seen that before .

Pete

ChristiaanJ

19th Aug 2009, 10:36

Ford Transit,
See earlier post http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/349414-l-sers-attacks-aircraft-14.html#post5092701
on the subject.

Whiskey Papa

19th Aug 2009, 11:21

ChristiaanJ

Bon jour,

I don't believe that "I didn't know" is an excuse. It's a well known principal that ignorance of the law is no excuse.

I didn't know it was a police helicopter

So it's ok to laser civilian aircraft?

I have a powerful laser distance measuring device I use for surveys, and I've seen laser pointers. These devices have a large notice (and pictogram) saying Class X laser - It is dangerous to point device directly at the eye The instruction book also covers the safety issues.

We need this guy to go down "pour encourager les autres"

WP

ChristiaanJ

19th Aug 2009, 16:00

Whiskey Papa,

Salut!

I think we're slightly at cross purposes....
I wasn't looking for an excuse, but an explanation....

I may be wrong of course, but I would think in the majority of cases the "perps" are not really aware of how narrow and blinding the beam is even at a range of a mile and more. They just treat it as a glorified flashlight... until the police shows up on their doorstep. There may not necessarily always be malevolent or criminal intent.

You're a professional user. You read the instructions....

"These devices have a large notice (and pictogram) saying Class X laser - It is dangerous to point device directly at the eye."
Do these people (who bought it on eBay) understand that does not just mean "across a room", but also at over a mile away?

" The instruction book also covers the safety issues."
1) You assume the "perps" can read.
2) Don't get me started on "safety instructions". These days, the few vital instructions are buried in a sea of irrelevant nonsense, which is there only for legal reasons.
"Do not dry the wet fur of a live animal in your microwave" comes to mind.
"Do not place a container containing liquid on top of the unit", this in the "safety" instructions for our flat-screen TV with a 1/4" upper edge, hardly the place for a vase of flowers...

I'm back to my original question... more education or just repression?

CJ

Sepp

19th Aug 2009, 16:15

More execution :E

The monobrowed scrotes know very well what they're doing - they've just migrated from heaving lumps off concrete off railway bridges to something that requires less effort.

sb_sfo

19th Aug 2009, 16:24

I read something like your last, and every so often wish I was a brit.
"monobrowed scrotes" indeed.
Well said, sir!

Whiskey Papa

19th Aug 2009, 16:43

Hi ChristiaanJ

I'm afraid it's definitely repression. Otherwise it's only a matter of time before there's a serious incident. The morons are begining to receive sentences (four months seems to be the tariff) so the more publicity this offence gets the better.

WP

Stop press! Scrub the bit about before there's a serious incident! From the Independant:-

A bus driver was badly injured when a ray from a laser pen was shone into his eyes as he drove a vehicle full of passengers. The victim was taken to hospital with a serious eye injury following the incident in Walsall, West Midlands.

Phil Bateman, a spokesman for the bus company, Travel West Midlands, yesterday called for a ban on the sale of the pens to children. "The consequences of this incident could have been absolutely horrendous," he said. A youth has been given police bail in connection with the incident.

ChristiaanJ

19th Aug 2009, 16:46

Sepp,
It's "lumps of concrete", actually.

You don't want me to include you in the "monobrowed scrotes" category too, now do you?

I'm not so sure... I still have the impression that a lot of these people have been 'handed' a very simple-to-operate very high-tech toy, and just "play" with it.

People know by now what a gun is, and what it can do... or at least most people do. Even chavs watch gangster movies.

I doubt whether most people know what a l@ser pointer really is, and what it can do.

CJ

BOAC73

19th Aug 2009, 16:55

ban them , make it illegal to own the damn things unless you have a valid reason. Perhaps licence them, but do something positive before the worst happens,
B73.

Green-dot

19th Aug 2009, 19:02

Mercurydancer wrote:

However, whilst I am not a fnantical astronomer it is pleasant to take the telescope out on clear nights and see what is out there. l@ser sights are really most useful in acquring a good position and the more coherent the light then the better the alignment. I have both red and green l@sers but there is a flight path due south of me so although I try to be careful it is possible I might shine a l@ser at about a right angle to an aircraft on approach to an airport.

I would apppreciate some comments about this -

Why not use a "red dot finderscope" instead of a l@ser scope to locate stellar objects? I am an amateur astronomer and I only use a red dot finderscope (attached to the telescope) which is basically a red LED projected on the finderscope screen but does not illuminate objects (such as overflying aircraft) in the sky.

Safe and effective.

Green-dot

Sepp

19th Aug 2009, 22:20

@ ChristiaanJ:

Lol, that's what comes of replying and rushing straight out to play without doing a quick check. Busted, and rightly so! :} :ok:

edit/ Forgive me my poor English - I'm a Brummie, so it's my second language... :)

awblain

20th Aug 2009, 05:24

Green-dot:

Red-dot HUDs are great for someone looking down the pointing direction of a telescope, but not to guide the eyes of a class-sized crowd standing around.

I've asked this before, but I'll try again, both because MagnusP has been described the professional lasers, and the thread has been re-energized by news that UK-based laser-wielding moocs are getting convicted:

10-W yellow/orange professional astronomy observatory laser beacons are launched from Mauna Kea, Hawaii, Palomar Mt, nr San Diego, Mt Hamilton, nr San Jose, and from Cerro Paranal near Antofagasta, Chile, as well as from several air force observatories in Arizona and Maui, Hawaii. Human spotters ensure that these DO NOT point at aircraft (and USAF Space Command checks that they do not fire in the direction of satellites). Has anyone flying around noticed the ~50-km high beams from these facilities?

CaptW5

20th Aug 2009, 18:06

He picked the wrong target:

Man charged after laser pointed at Edmonton police chopper

Man charged after laser pointed at Edmonton police chopper (http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/charged+after+laser+pointed+chopper/1912680/story.html)

ChristiaanJ

20th Aug 2009, 20:33

CaptW5,
We just went through that earlier
It's not just a police helicopter that's the wrong target.
It's any person or vehicle.
As to "vehicle", I'm not only thinking of airliners, even.
What about a big petrol (gasoline) tanker in a narrow street, and somebody doesn't like it there? Next thing we'll have one crashing into a house and catching fire....

Your link is interesting... the ignorance shown in the comments is staggering.

CJ

AnthonyGA

21st Aug 2009, 03:13

What about a big petrol (gasoline) tanker in a narrow street, and somebody doesn't like it there? Next thing we'll have one crashing into a house and catching fire....

It may not be necessary for it to crash into the house in order to catch fire. Many lasers are powerful enough to set things on fire on their own. So if the beam should happen to hit, say, a black hose filled with jet fuel from 500 meters away …

The implications are worrisome, not just with respect to airheaded troublemakers, but with respect to bad guys seeking deliberately to do damage. No need to get past security if you can just fire a laser beam from a random rooftop a kilometer away. And unlike a missile, there's no time to do anything about a laser beam, even if you can devise a system to do something useful. The beam can certainly blind people (and there are laser rifles designed specifically to do this), but it can also heat things up to very high temperatures very rapidly.

bank_angle

22nd Aug 2009, 10:40

Well, 8 months might make this idiot realise the actions of his consequences.

'Stupid' dad spared jail after laser put chopper in danger (http://www.thisisderbyshire.co.uk/news/Stupid-dad-spared-jail-laser-chopper-danger/article-1275764-detail/article.html)

'Mr Wood said: "He said he thought it was a microlight, although it is not clear why that would have made the offence any less serious. He accepted his behaviour was stupid but he had not appreciated how dangerous the consequences could have been."

I'm amazed at the ignorance of some people:ugh:

glad rag

22nd Aug 2009, 16:00

Man Toys. You know the sort (http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=210&t=736836&mid=17220&nmt=Man%20Toys.%20You%20know%20the%20sort)

:=:=:=:=:=:=:=

Someone needs to have a quiet word with Haymarket, Pistonheads new owners....

mercurydancer

22nd Aug 2009, 16:14

Thanks greendot

Ive not found the red led spot to be that good. Its ok if the telescope has perfect alingnment but getting alignment is what I find the lasers most useful for.

All in all its safer if I dont use the laser at all.

glad rag

22nd Aug 2009, 19:15

Greendot You are talking about a Telrad, best used under dark sky conditions.

I have a green <1mW laser secured to the 8" OTA of my SCT.
This is attached to a powered GEM mount that in normal operation physically could not track a moving aircraft.
Manual operation is achieved by losening TWO clutches but even then the scope will only move in Right Asention and Declination.
The green laser is an absolute boon for initial alignment that is carried out after power up for quickly determining rough alignment accuracy using the laser in short bursts to indicate OTA pointing.
And thats it!
Once the PEC and alignment error routines are completed it doesn't get used again.

What I find "irritating" is the repeated accusation that I am a danger to aircraft.
Frankly this attitude is losing more support that it gains!!

rgds

glad rag.

angels

24th Aug 2009, 12:07

I'm amazed at the ignorance of some people

Personally, I think he was just trying to get a reduced sentence by shedding crocodile tears.

I think its ridiculous he wasn't banged up for a while. :\

Say Again, Over!

25th Aug 2009, 13:06

Why the spelling l@ser instead of the simple "l@ser" with a regular a?

Just curious...

As has been explained several times in this thread already.....................

Duck Rogers
Moderator

MagnusP

25th Aug 2009, 13:18

Say again, over: because the advertbots pick it up, place adverts on the pprune pages, and anyone who can read, albeit with their lips moving, can then buy a coherent light source to shine in your eyes when you're on short final. Could you maybe edit your post to adopt the "safer" spelling?

Say Again, Over!

25th Aug 2009, 13:52

I changed the post! Thanks much for your reply, MagnusP. Clever! :ok:

ChristiaanJ

25th Aug 2009, 14:05

MagnusP,
I think PPRuNe automatically changes the spelling.
Test : this was laser spelled with an 'a' rather than an '@'

CJ

Edit, to add that it doesn't change in the preview, but as soon as you submit the reply, it is changed automatically.

Finn47

27th Aug 2009, 02:35

Some 20 cases reported in Sweden this year. One conviction coming up for a 19-year-old man in Malmö for interfering with the flight of a police helicopter, punishable by up to 10 years.

The article is in Swedish but the point is clear: these things are happening everywhere.

Fler laserattacker mot flygtrafik - DN.se (http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/fler-laserattacker-mot-flygtrafik-1.938377)

MagnusP

27th Aug 2009, 07:19

For some reason, the 'a' doesn't become '@' in the title of a post, so it's worthwhile using '@' as a habit.

Cheers.

justawanab

28th Aug 2009, 03:07

This should brighten your day (well, it'll annoy you first, but the outcome is positive)
Man on roof arrested after laser shined at aircraft | The Courier-Mail (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25992612-3102,00.html)

Bobbsy

28th Aug 2009, 08:38

The same incident made the TV news here in Brisbane...and if they're to be believed, the perpetrator is a trainee private pilot himself so he should know better. Appalling.

Bob

angels

28th Aug 2009, 13:11

if they're to be believed, the perpetrator is a trainee private pilot himself

Oh FFS.

If this is true, is it possible to ban him from flying?? Do rules exist so that this is possible (in any country)??

beamender99

28th Aug 2009, 19:43

A 21-year-old woman who shone a powerful laser into the cockpit of a police helicopter “for a laugh” has been ordered to carry out 180 hours' community service.
Natasha Forster, of Rochester Avenue, Feltham, aimed the beam at the aircraft, which was flying at more than 1,000ft, forcing the pilot to look away from the windows.
Pilot Mark Tuson said the distraction of the light flooding the cockpit could have had catastrophic consequences.
The helicopter crew was responding to a call-out in Staines just before midnight on August 10. The two officers in the helicopter were able to pinpoint Forster, who repeatedly shone the beam at them, and directed ground units to the arrest her and seize the laser pen.
It led to Forster, who now lives at Pavilion Gardens, Staines, being sentenced at North Surrey Magistrates’ Court on Tuesday to a six-month suspended jail sentence after pleading guilty to endangering an aircraft.
Inspector Steve Cheeseman, of the Surrey Police air operations unit, said: “Laser pens can be very powerful and to shine one into the cockpit of any aircraft during flight is extremely dangerous. It could easily blind or distract the pilot and puts everyone on board at risk.
“The sentence handed out sends a clear warning to anyone else considering such reckless behaviour. Endangering an aircraft is a criminal offence and it will not be tolerated.”

From the version in my local free paper... " she made 10 attempts with the laser..... it had been a joke, claiming she did not realise it was a police helicopter.

Why does an idiot take a laser when night fishing?

Bronx

28th Aug 2009, 22:17

Inspector Steve Cheeseman, of the Surrey Police air operations unit, said: “The sentence handed out sends a clear warning to anyone else considering such reckless behaviour.”
Yeah, a clear warning they won't be sent to prison.
Stupid decision by the court and stupid comment by the cop. :rolleyes:

Look at post #82.
That was the proper message.
Shame it didn't get through to the court near Heathrow! :mad:

B.

keesje

8th Sep 2009, 12:09

I only read the first 35 posts, so maybe it has come up. What is minimum laser power that could be used to cause problems in a cockpit?

A few months ago I bought a laser pen in China, you can make nice star cluster in dark rooms etc. When I take off the front lens it gives a powerfull beam. When the batteries are fresh its strong enough to shine on sky crapers miles away. Would that be enough to influence cockpit operations?

I hardly use & keep it away from my kids.. however everybody can buy them for a few dollars..

AvroLincoln

8th Sep 2009, 13:48

With reference to post #320, the article states that mere possession of such articles is a criminal offence in Sweden!

visibility3miles

8th Sep 2009, 14:02

" she made 10 attempts with the l@ser..... it had been a joke, claiming she did not realise it was a police helicopter.

So she thought it would be acceptable if it wasn't a police helicopter? Or is she only sorry she was caught?

Bealzebub

8th Sep 2009, 14:31

In the last few few weeks there have been reports of these devices being directed from a car towards airliners on the approach to Corfu airport in Greece.

xetroV

8th Sep 2009, 14:42

I only read the first 35 posts, so maybe it has come up. What is minimum l@ser power that could be used to cause problems in a cockpit?

A few months ago I bought a l@ser pen in China, you can make nice star cluster in dark rooms etc. When I take off the front lens it gives a powerfull beam. When the batteries are fresh its strong enough to shine on sky crapers miles away. Would that be enough to influence cockpit operations?

I hardly use & keep it away from my kids.. however everybody can buy them for a few dollars..
I have been on the receiving side of someone shining his/her green laser at a "sky scraper miles away" (i.e. my home). Luckily I didn't suffer any eye damage. Jokes like that can end careers. :(

dxara

14th Sep 2009, 19:52

A lot of the incidents that have ended in prosecutions of some kind seem to have involved police helicopters.

Is it fair to say that by virtue of having more than one pilot, commercial airlines are less vulnerable to this sort of thing ending in a fatal accident?

I'm asking all this as a non-pilot, just a bit worried about something that is not receiving that much exposure in the press.

poss

14th Sep 2009, 20:06

From what I understand the beam fills the whole cockpit with a green light so it would be my guess that both pilots suffer impaired vision due to the light.

Cubbie

15th Sep 2009, 01:38

Had a green lazer shone into my flight deck a few nights ago, at night ,on final approach at 1000ft. It completely blinds you and impedes night vision for several seconds after.Of course you dont look at it, but trying to get a fix on its location to inform atc, its like trying not to look at the sun. When you have 300 lives behind you, depending on you to land them safely, this is no joke, the book should be throw as hard as possible at whoever thinks its fun to do this.

mocoman

24th Sep 2009, 22:38

As a PAX I witnessed another one this evening.

Downwind into LL some tw*t in sarf lundun targetted the aircraft. It was certainly deliberate and followed us for a couple of miles, getting 'on-target' at least three times so that I could see back down the beam.

Talked to the III after landing just to confirm that they had seen it and reported it.

Death is too good for them; a perpetual state of transit at somewhere like Mogadishu would be a fitting punishment.

:mad:

ACARS

1st Oct 2009, 21:18

Tonight I flew BRU-NCL as SLF on an RJ.

Someone near Sunderland coast was shining a green laser at us. I was really surprised how powerful it was especially when the idiot got it right on target.

I am going to call the local bobby. I think I got a reasonbly good fix on the location.

shortfinals

9th Oct 2009, 21:57

The Beeb is interested in publicising how potentially dangerous this issue is. They would like to interview a professional pilot who has experienced a l@ser incident. If anybody could do this (and - seriously - don't bother unless you have the permission of your employer to do it) click on my username and email me. You'd take part in a live chat session at a high profile time. I am not the Beeb, but I can put you in touch. I can't help them because I have not suffered a l@ser assault.

antic81

13th Oct 2009, 05:29

Looks like they found their man, it made the Beeb news this morning...my worry is that now all the idiots that hadnt thought of doing it will have been given some ideas...

Whiskey Papa

13th Oct 2009, 08:01

Here's the item;

BBC NEWS | UK | Laser beam air attacks on rise (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8304041.stm)

WP

lplsprog

13th Oct 2009, 14:06

Antic81 I'm with you on that, just watch the number of attacks rocket now there is all this publicity.:E

Tifosa

14th Oct 2009, 09:08

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

The local feral 'yoof' have taken to mucking about with at least one of these gadgets - having been 'hit' from the other end of the street the other evening I realised for the first time how much of a hazard these things are ('hit' from about 400yds away, side on to the beam and dazzled for several seconds afterwards).

As I live only a half mile or so from the flightpath of aircraft on final approach to Edinburgh airport I did my civic duty. Sadly, experience of the local plod leads me to believe they won't pursue incidents of this type until they are fishing aircraft parts out of the Firth of Forth :ugh:

IMHO pointing one of these things at an aircraft (or any moving vehicle) should be treated as attempted murder.

jefferybond

14th Oct 2009, 11:12

We must not succumb to the image of the "Star Trek" type phaser beam....they all disperse with the square of the distance away. As the knowledgeable poster on Page one said....the best l@sers shot at the moon are 5 times the moon's diameter when they arrive there. If you were to look at the Earth from the moon (directly into the beam) you would most certainly NOT notice it.....it is that diverged.Actually, the laser NASA used to bounce off the moon was about 7km diameter by the time it reached the moon, not 5 times the moon's diameter!

J

sb_sfo

14th Oct 2009, 14:04

Antic81 I'm with you on that, just watch the number of attacks rocket now there is all this publicity.

Be careful with that choice of words, some idiot has apparently fired a couple of "model" rockets at CO Express aircraft in the Houston area!

Hunt for rocket that nearly hit jet in Texas (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/11/MNBP1A2PF9.DTL)

mercurydancer

14th Oct 2009, 22:00

Tifosa

Attempted murder? So in UK today not much of a sentance. 6 months at best.
How about a terrorist crime? Much more fitting penalties attached to that sort of crime.

Tifosa

15th Oct 2009, 09:29

@Mercurydancer

Yeah OK, fair point I suppose :(

That said, sorting out the criminal justice system, building more jails and handing out sentences that are appropriate to the offences is surely a better solution that using anti-terror law as a cure-all?

Granted, I suspect I stand more chance of becoming the next pope than any of the above happening, especially under the current mob, but being a supporter of Hibernian F.C., I'm something of an optimist by nature :ok:

dominic blake

16th Oct 2009, 12:24

A man was arrested during the early hours of this morning (Thursday, October 15) following two incidents in which a laser pen beam was directed at the Hampshire police aircraft.

The 25-year-old was detained by police on the ground, who were directed to a residential address in Fareham by officers in the constabulary's fixed wing aircraft.

The man was arrested shortly before 1am, after two incidents between 11:30pm and 1am in which a high powered green laser beam was shone directly at the aircraft as it flew overhead.

It follows several similar incidents which had taken place from the same location over a number of months.

Last night's incident was caught on camera using thermal imagery, and a laser pen later recovered.

Richard Peter Wakeman, 25, of The Cloisters, Fareham, has been charged with three counts of endangering an aircraft, under the provisions of the Air Navigation Order 2005, Article 73.

He has been bailed to appear at Fareham Magistrates Court on October 29.

PC Andy Sparshott, from the Air Support Unit, said: "This is a really serious issue which can cause temporary blindness to pilots and crew, the potential implications of which are extremely grave.

"While the use of laser pens against all aircraft types might appear harmless to some, the consequences of endangering the safety of an aircraft this way could be catastrophic.

"This is also a criminal offence which the justice system takes very seriously and offenders could receive a custodial sentence.

"Although the purchase of laser pens is not illegal itself, the reckless use of them towards aircraft, vehicles or people is. We urge everyone who is in possession of a laser pen to be more responsible with them and encourage others to do so too."
http://www.hampshire.police.uk/ (http://www.hampshire.police.uk/)

simufly

16th Oct 2009, 18:35

OK what are the implications to the pilots if they are illuminated by green LASER light, any chance of permanent damage?

ChristiaanJ

16th Oct 2009, 20:17

simufly,
Depends on how you define "permanent damage".
From what we know, at the ranges involved, the risk of permanent eye damage seems to be slight.
Loss of control and a crash, to me, would very much qualify as "permanent damage". And it's only waiting to happen....

CJ

mercurydancer

16th Oct 2009, 20:39

Tifosa

I couldn't agree more. An effective criminal justice system would be good. I would normally hesitate before making a blatant political point such as the ineffectiveness of "Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" but we need to do something.

mercurydancer

16th Oct 2009, 20:47

Eye damage from laser ground attacks is slight, but illuminating a cockpit with coherent light would make instruments hard to see at a critical point.

You FD crew can debate the differences between airbus and boeing cockpit systems till the cows come home. I would prefer the pilots to be able to see the instrumentation in the first place.

Hooligan Bill

17th Oct 2009, 19:50

Tifosa wrote:As I live only a half mile or so from the flightpath of aircraft on final approach to Edinburgh airport I did my civic duty. Sadly, experience of the local plod leads me to believe they won't pursue incidents of this type until they are fishing aircraft parts out of the Firth of Forth

Tifosa,

Believe me, L and B take these types of incident very seriously.

ryanairpilot42

18th Oct 2009, 00:46

I had one pointed at me about 6 months ago coming into land in EMA at night, although I did not get hit direct as I noticed the beam aiming towards me it was enough to distract me at a very critical phase of flight turning final at around 2200ft!
reported it to tower to pass on to local police and thats the last I heard of it, hopefully if there are repeat actions like this a net is put out to catch them and throw the book at them for been beyond stupid.

Gooneyone

18th Oct 2009, 01:43

Just for information, heard that this nonsense has started at POS (TTPP). Someone aiming a green laser at planes approaching the TRI NDB on approach.

cirr737

18th Oct 2009, 08:06

So, now I am joining the club. Never thought it would be that bad.
Got hit on approach to EDDL last night by a green l@ser. When it started I was looking out of the window so I caught the full beam into one of my eyes. Now it is the morning after and my eye still feels strange, although my vision seems to be okay...

ATC was informed but was absolutely uninterested :(

3bars

18th Oct 2009, 11:50

Had it in EIDW a few nights ago on the approach to Rwy 32 - coming off the Ballymun flats - police helicopters were scrambled by ATC!:ok:

sharksandwich

18th Oct 2009, 14:02

Arrested: The grandfather who ‘attacked’ an RAF Apache with an £8 torch

By Mail On Sunday Reporter (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Mail+On+Sunday+Reporter)
Last updated at 1:20 AM on 18th October 2009

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/10/18/article-0-06DB2D84000005DC-323_233x423.jpg Questioned: Torben Merriott investigated the noise using a cheap torch

A lighting expert who has worked for the Queen has been arrested for shining an £8.45 torch at an RAF Apache helicopter gunship outside his home in the early hours.

Torben Merriott, 63, was woken by what felt and sounded like an ‘earthquake’ outside his bedroom window at 1am.

The grandfather used the torch to identify the aircraft.

He spotted one of two gunships on an exercise just ‘10ft above my garden’ at his farmhouse in Stradbroke near Eye, Suffolk, and called the Ministry of Defence complaint line.

But instead of receiving an apology for the September 18 disturbance, Mr Merriott was visited three weeks later by police, who arrested him on suspicion of endangering an aircraft by dazzling the pilot.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221196/Arrested-The-grandfather-attacked-RAF-Apache-8-torch.html#ixzz0UIPgnpdE (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1221196/Arrested-The-grandfather-attacked-RAF-Apache-8-torch.html#ixzz0UIPgnpdE)

Flintstone

18th Oct 2009, 15:14

He spotted one of two gunships on an exercise just ‘10ft above my garden’

Ten feet eh? :rolleyes:

sharksandwich

18th Oct 2009, 16:21

But instead of receiving an apology for the September 18 disturbance, Mr Merriott was visited three weeks later by police, who arrested him on suspicion of endangering an aircraft by dazzling the pilot.

Stupid t*t. They could be in harm's way any time soon, and he worries about being woken up!
Would the legislation governing lasers also cover ordinary flashlights?

Flintstone

18th Oct 2009, 16:52

I suppose he could argue that he didn't know they were miltary until he'd shone his gazillion candlepower torch in their face.

So that's alright then.

cwatters

18th Oct 2009, 17:11

Be careful with that choice of words, some idiot has apparently fired a couple of "model" rockets at CO Express aircraft in the Houston area!

Hunt for rocket that nearly hit jet in Texas

I think it unlikely they were fired at the aircraft if it was at 13,000 feet. Amateur rockets can be impressive but generally aren't fast enough to be launched as the aircraft goes overhead. They would need to be launched when the aircraft is still several miles away. Much more likely the rocketeers just weren't keeping a good look out. No excuse mind.

sb_sfo

18th Oct 2009, 17:24

You might want to read the mentioned article again- the rockets can go to 13K, but the aircraft were on departure from the airport.

golfyankeesierra

18th Oct 2009, 17:27

who arrested him on suspicion of endangering an aircraft by dazzling the pilot.
Stop! This thread should be deleted! Don't let the Taliban know!
They will throw away all their stingers and AK's and will down the Apaches with flashlights!

golfyankeesierra

18th Oct 2009, 17:32

BTW, This guy (article in dutch) (http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/4960381/__Boete_na_schijnen_laser_op_heli__.html?p=36,2) was sentenced €150 after targeting a (police!) helicopter with a laserpen

infrequentflyer789

19th Oct 2009, 08:47

Ten feet eh? :rolleyes:

Allegedly the cluprit has professional experieince lighting flying choppers at air displays, so he might well have more idea than the average civilian.

Also given that it was a military helicopter and the incident was at a "farmhouse" in a rural area, they could well be flying very very low. Low flying military helicopters have been implicated in the deaths of horseriders in the UK.

The question it begs for me is, if you are buzzed by a low flying aircraft at night, how the heck do you get the tail number to complain without shining some kind of light ? I would have thought there was a difference between shining a (diffuse) torch at the tail and a concentrated green alser at the cockpit window, but it appears not... :(

call100

19th Oct 2009, 09:23

I thought he had experience of lighting up Helicopters....I suppose that makes him even more qualified than flying one??!!

Lone_Ranger

19th Oct 2009, 11:07

Infrequent.... shining a torch to get an aircrafts tail number at night? ........are you :mad: serious?

Malaysian28

19th Oct 2009, 15:14

Their was an incident near Heathrow a few weeks back involving a laser attack.
It was about 23.00 and Police Helicopter North of Heathrow was almost lasered, I remember the Crew Radioing Heathrow and Swanwick to telling the area of the laser attack to try and avoid that area.

Fortyodd2

21st Oct 2009, 21:48

West Yorkshire had a yoof sent down for 6 months yesterday at Bradford Crown Court for a similar offence.
Thanks your honour :ok:

Judge locks up man who shone light at police while 'messing about' (From Bradford Telegraph and Argus) (http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/4692571._Laser_pen_lark_could_have_killed_helicopter_crew_/)

Blind Pugh

22nd Oct 2009, 06:00

From Rotorheads:-Today at Blackfriars Crown Court, a defendant was found guilty of endangering the safety of an aircraft in flight. He had been targetting the Met Police helicopter with a green l@ser and has been given a 12 month sentence.

OneOffDave

22nd Oct 2009, 09:42

Torbin Merriott has been told the Police are going to NFA his case! His interview on the local media was very telling as he referred to 'another of those wretched helicopters'

OneOffDave

22nd Oct 2009, 09:46

The question it begs for me is, if you are buzzed by a low flying aircraft at night, how the heck do you get the tail number to complain without shining some kind of light ? I would have thought there was a difference between shining a (diffuse) torch at the tail and a concentrated green alser at the cockpit window, but it appears not... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif

The torch looks like one of those 5 million candlepower (allegedly) ones and the beam isn't that diffuse. If it was pitch balck as he's claiming, then I suppoer he'd have to light up the whole a/c to find the tail. I suspect the crew were using NVG too which would increase the effect of the torch. If the account is true, the rainge involved is a lost less than most l@ser attacks.

pmurph5

24th Oct 2009, 03:48

I had a brief correspondence with Torben Merriott. He wrote that he did not spot the helicopters (I assume he means he didn't see them lit up, indicating a fast flash instead of holding the light steady). He also said the pilot reported that the light came from the right rear; it lit up the cockpit but did not go directly (head-on) into his night-vision goggles. If I understand press reports, only one of the two helicopters was illuminated.

Torben stated the illuminated helicopter was very close to his house, that it climbed from 10 ft to 600 ft.

Hope this clarifies questions about tail numbers etc. Maybe it raises more questions (10 ft sounds awfully low) but that's what Torben said and that's the only info I have at this time from him.

pmurph5

24th Oct 2009, 04:03

keesje wrote: I only read the first 35 posts, so maybe it has come up. What is minimum l@ser power that could be used to cause problems in a cockpit?

The FAA, working with experts, set various levels. Less than 50 nanowatts per sq. cm. (0.05 microwatts per sq. cm.) is deemed to not cause distraction. At this level, the light does not stand out against other nighttime lights seen from the sky.

Glare occurs around 5 microwatts per sq. cm. It is hard or impossible to see around the glare.

Flashblindness occurs around 100 microwatts per sq. cm. These temporarily blind a pilot and can leave afterimages lingering for seconds or even minutes.

Note that the above is irradiance: light power spread over an area. This is different than beam power, which is how pointers are measured (how much light comes out, irregardless of whether the beam is tight or spreads out a lot).

The eye is most sensitive to green light. If you have a green beam and red beam of equal power, the green appears much brighter (therefore distracting/glaring) than the red one.

A green pointer of 5 milliwatts (the legal limit to sell as a pointer in the U.S.) can cause flashblindness to about 250 feet, glare to about 1,200 feet, and can be a distraction over 2 miles away.

A green pointer of 125 milliwatts has a visual effect 5 times greater, so it causes flashblindness to 1300 feet, glare to 1.1 miles, and can be a distraction over 11 miles away.

There is NO reason to ever aim a pointer at or near an aircraft. (Well, one legitimate consumer reason, which is to signal a search-and-rescue aircraft when one is truly lost.)

Hope this answers your question.

j_davey

27th Oct 2009, 08:52

Had it in EIDW a few nights ago on the approach to Rwy 32 - coming off the Ballymun flats - police helicopters were scrambled by ATC!

Rwy 32 doesn`t exist , it was Rwy 10 I believe. It was the FlyBe that was lasered. Skipper interviewed by the feds then flight departed a few mins later no probs.

-jd

DutchBird-757

27th Oct 2009, 08:57

Multiple laser incidents in my company over the past weeks in the London area and also into GLA. They even tagetted a Met Police helicopter with a green laser light just before they turned to us. :ok:

CornishFlyer

27th Oct 2009, 09:52

Another laser shone at the BA2597 from Verona around 5:30 yesterday evening. Police met the a/c to take statements. This is getting silly. What sort of idiots think this is funny?

Airbrake

27th Oct 2009, 10:16

There was at least one green laser incident yesterday targetting LTN aircraft.

coldair

27th Oct 2009, 15:36

From the BBC;

BBC NEWS | UK | Wales | South East Wales | 'Sorry' for helicopter laser beam (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8326194.stm)

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/printer_friendly/news_logo.gif
'Sorry' for helicopter laser beam

A teenager who endangered the lives of a police helicopter crew by shining a laser pen at the aircraft has apologised in person to them.
Dennis, 17, from Caerphilly county, was later tracked down by the police by using the video equipment onboard the helicopter he had targeted in July.
He visited RAF St Athan to meet the crew and say sorry as part of a restorative justice programme.
The pilot, Captain James Grenfell, said he fully accepted the apology.
The meeting was organised by Caerphilly's Youth Offending Service to show Dennis the implications of his actions.
During the visit, he was shown around the Eurocopter craft used by both South Wales Police and Gwent Police.
Two of the aircrew, Pc Mark Chamberlain and Captain Grenfell, explained the impact Dennis' behaviour had on their safety and the potentially tragic consequences of his actions.
He offered his apologies to the crew for the incident.
'Not malicious'
Captain Grenfell said following the meeting: "From our meeting, Dennis has learned how dangerous this type of incident can be, and I hope that others will understand the same lesson.
"After speaking to him, I felt that it was not done maliciously and I fully accept his apology."
The youth offending service said the aim of such meetings was to provide an offender with the opportunity to take responsibility for their actions and acknowledge the consequences without humiliating them.
Caerphilly cabinet member for the environment, Lyn Ackerman, said: "Restorative justice meetings such as this one can be very positive experiences for all concerned. "They really can help reduce stress and fear among victims, and can also be very effective in helping to motivate young offenders to turn away from a life of crime."

Story from BBC NEWS:
BBC NEWS | UK | Wales | South East Wales | 'Sorry' for helicopter laser beam (http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/wales/south_east/8326194.stm)

Published: 2009/10/26 13:16:13 GMT

TrafficPilot

28th Oct 2009, 19:12

Had someone zapping a l@ser at one of our aircraft this evening. Have just debriefed our pilot.

Green l@ser flashing into cockpit just after take-off from Oxford Airport.

Unluckily for the tw:mad:t who was doing it - the guy flying our aircraft lives locally and knew exactly what area the beam was coming from. He reported the incident to Oxford Approach who passed it on to the Police who have just arrested a 12 year old boy. Another aircraft also reported l@ser activity just after we'd left the circuit.

This is the second l@ser incident this week. On Monday someone on the ground was shining a beam into the cockpit overhead Twyford at 2000ft.

Worrying.

TrafficPilot

assymetricdrift

29th Oct 2009, 00:31

Twice this week into Newcastle for me. And each time from different places - once from South Shields and once from Washington area.

The one from Washington was on my side of the aircraft and caught me square in the eye, thankfully the police helicopter was out and about.

Whether they caught the culprit, I have no idea. But this is now getting absolutly ridiculous... Almost to the extent that now on approach into NCL, we expect to get it at some stage.

ACARS

29th Oct 2009, 07:31

Following my incident as SLF - I spoke to local police in Newcastle a while back. The person on the phone really doubted that laser devices were powerful enough to each an aircraft at 3000'.

assymetricdrift

29th Oct 2009, 10:10

To be honest, the police are getting much better on it now - there was no disbelief when we reported that we were passing through 8000 feet when one caught us.

collectivefriction

29th Oct 2009, 11:04

"Unluckily for the twt who was doing it - the guy flying our aircraft lives locally and knew exactly what area the beam was coming from"

Yes "the park behind the Audi garage" was a bit specific :) luckily said tw@t missed us as we went around the hold between the two incidents mentioned.

AnthonyGA

3rd Nov 2009, 19:07

A California man has been sentenced to 2.5 years of prison for shining a l@ser at two jets at John Wayne Airport:

Calif. Man Gets Prison for Aiming Laser at Planes - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,571246,00.html)

Federal prisons do not grant parole in the U.S.

mary meagher

17th Nov 2009, 21:01

A day or two ago, BBC reported that a police helicopter flying over Donnington Bridge, Oxford, some time ago,was blinded by a laser pen wielded by a 20 year old male. The crew managed to pinpoint the source, and nab the youth, who appeared in court a few days ago, and said he hadn't intended any harm.

The broadcast of the incident was quite frightening, so intense was the beam. Amazing they were able to find the culprit. It is probably impossible to regulate the sale of such items.....

I havn't been able to discover whether or not this news has been reported on pprune, so pass it on herewith.

Sky Sports

21st Nov 2009, 10:34

Are there different levels of intensity? I was on a scheduled flight to france last year and on the approach someone shined a laser at the aircraft. At one point I was looking straight down the beam and must admit that it wasn't that bad. It didn't leave me feeling dizzy or blind.

Torque Tonight

21st Nov 2009, 10:57

Are there different levels of intensity?

Well, yes! Some laser read your barcodes at the supermarket checkout, and some destroy ICBMs re-entering the atmosphere at hundreds of miles range. There are a few in between as well.

lorel

21st Nov 2009, 11:14

There are indeed different levels of power and thus intensity.
I had green laser pointed at me last week while I was on 8nm final and this was quite powerful.
Have a look at this link

Green Laser,Laser Beam Optics,Laser Safety Glasses : Dragon Lasers (http://dragonlasers.com/)

and this movie from youtube

YouTube - Hulk Ultra 400mW high power green laser (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgXk9IMns20&feature=channel)

I'm sure these could some serious damage.

Be careful.

Lorel

One Outsider

21st Nov 2009, 11:47

The effects of laser illumination of aircraft - IFALPA medical breafing leaflet. (http://www.ifalpa.org/downloads/Level1/Briefing%20Leaflets/Medical/09MEDBL07%20-%20Effects%20of%20laser%20illumination%20of%20aircraft.pdf)

Finn47

25th Nov 2009, 04:31

Some 3000 cases in 5 years, 700 in 2008, 1200 already this year in the States, according to this article. One captured on video:

Laser Pointers Posing Frightening Risk To Pilots - News Story - KTVU San Francisco (http://www.ktvu.com/news/21714480/detail.html)

beamender99

25th Nov 2009, 12:17

BBC News - Teenager arrested over laser pen (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/8378433.stm)

Larryishappy

25th Nov 2009, 19:33

Throw away the key I say. idiots who do this sort of thing have no clue the danger they cause.

mary meagher

25th Nov 2009, 19:54

According to a recent light aircraft safety data report by the CAA, between 14/9 and 21/10 of this year, there were 9 fixed wing and 7 helicopters targeted with the nasty green ray.

Fixed wing:
Coventry, 3 incidents. Manchester 2. Leeds Bradford and Northampton 1,
Fareham and Bournemouth 1 each, but they caught the perps.

Helis,
Franklin, an Agusta. Carniforth and Lake District, both Sikorsky S76.
But when they took on the Bolkow 117, over Tottenham, Rainham, Wood Green and an unspecified location on 17/9, ALL the perps were apprehended.

Clearly the Bolkow has special powers, perhaps they could help seek out the idiots pestering larger aircraft?

eastern wiseguy

25th Nov 2009, 21:06

Clearly the Bolkow has special powers, perhaps they could help seek out the idiots pestering larger aircraft?

What do the Met fly?

Sick Squid

25th Nov 2009, 22:42

I've lost count of the number of times I've been targeted, (basically because I have trouble counting beyond 5... 4 times I think it is,) and indeed was the Captain on one of the major incidents referred to on this thread about 18 months ago. On the most recent incident I was targeted twice on the same approach into Heathrow.

Does the Bolkow have special powers? I thought of that straight-off as a glib statement but thought it through, and it is actually a serious point. Special powers? I don't know, but one of the luxuries it DOES have (over and above the IR cameras) is time; time to hang around and fine-tune the location of the idiot perps and that coupled with the local knowledge of the crew perhaps DOES add up to being a special power. But then all Police Helicopters will have the same; perhaps most of them happen to be Bolkows.

Time is a luxury those of us in commercial airliners do not have, neither is the willingness necessarily to risk more damage by staring down the eye of the green shaft. However, one of my copilots was recently targeted into London as well, and I flew with him not long after the event He managed to nail the location down to one of two houses, and apparently the police were very impressed with that. When they asked him how he'd managed that, the answer was simple; he'd not too long ago been flying close air support in Harriers, and was well up to speed on target-spotting, and armed with that experience and an OS map was able to give them some serious gen. Don't know the outcome yet, but it inspired me so last time I was targeted I took a good note of the area, DME's, radials etc. and got onto Google Earth as soon as I could, appending my rough and very raw data to the ASR.

Best I could do was about a block at best, maybe two. But it might be worth bearing in mind if it happens to you.

Squid

Blind Pugh

2nd Dec 2009, 11:11

No but I believe it has a very accurate camera/map slaving system accurate down to individual house numbers and multiple sensor recording capabilities. Very quick and very efficient:D

manrow

6th Dec 2009, 21:20

I hate to disillusionise you guys but just google on 'powerful laser pointers for sale', and you will be horrified at those available. Some claimed to be with 100 mile range? What for?

seagull87

8th Dec 2009, 22:09

Hello everybody

We're having a strange problem here in Italy.

Almost everyday there's someone pointing a/c on final and on the initial climb with a green laser. A lot of pilots complain about this light, as it could be dangerous during one of the most difficul phase of flight.

We've sent dozens of reports, called airport police, but it seems that nobody is able to find and kick those funny guys.

Is this just an italian problem? Did you have any kind of similar experience?

seagull87

8th Dec 2009, 22:11

sorry, i didn't see there's another thread about...

jpclowes

8th Dec 2009, 22:49

Here, the police used their helicopter to chase down suspects pointing lasers at aircraft. However it helped that the idiots who were doing it started pointing the laser AT the police helicopter.

mary meagher

10th Dec 2009, 21:35

Seagull87, do the Italian police have helicopters? See my previous post 393 and the reply 396. If your local airport has a serious problem, its time to send for the local copper chopper.

Mr Optimistic

11th Dec 2009, 19:54

for illuminating police helicopter: BBC report here
BBC News - Laser light man avoids jail term (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/8408205.stm)

beamender99

12th Dec 2009, 09:08

Another BBC item on the situation in the UK including the rising number of events.

BBC News - Crackdown on laser pen yobs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8408461.stm)

Capetonian

13th Dec 2009, 04:44

Helicopter laser thug jailed for four months

Jailed: Liam Coe flashed a laser pointer at a police helicopter

A thug who tried to dazzle an airborne police helicopter pilot by shining a green laser pen at him has been jailed for four months.

Liam Coe, 21, shone it from the ground at the cockpit of the aircraft being flown at 600ft by Captain Richard Hornby over Manchester.

Kim Irving, prosecuting, said: 'The pilot said it could have been very dangerous.'

Coe, from Hollingworth, Greater Manchester, pleaded guilty to recklessly acting in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft.

Jailing him on Friday, Judge Andrew Lowcock said: 'That was the most appalingly dangerous thing to do. It could have had the most terrible consequences. People involved in these things must go to prison.'

Helicopter laser thug jailed | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1235447/Helicopter-laser-thug-jailed.html#ixzz0ZXpN69GC)

Rollingthunder

13th Dec 2009, 13:54

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/12/13/article-0-078FB83E000005DC-477_235x284.jpg

Sometimes they just look like brainless thugs

Liam Coe

61 Lafite

15th Dec 2009, 15:52

Sometimes they just look like brainless thugs

... and sometimes that look is aspirational for them!

Lafite

rokami93

16th Dec 2009, 00:54

I think the issue is getting exaggerated. We have bars and clubs near the Chiang Mai airport (VTCC) which draw attention to their establishment by projecting lasershows in the sky being the airport within a 2 mile distance. I get struck all the time and I am more worried about fireworks getting into my prop than getting struck by harmless, low powered key chain lasers or even laser projections.

There are laser shows in the clubs crossing the visitors eye, too. Just the time of exposure to the eye is so short (and in an aircraft so much shorter due to higher speed) that it wouldn't harm.

There is no way anyone could keep a laser directed to your eye in an aircraft for a significant time so it could do harm. (At least not with commonly available lasers).

Everyone who doesn't believe it, go to a club with a laser show and see for your self.

Much a do about nothing. Again another way of making a dumb kid a criminal one.

Cubbie

16th Dec 2009, 03:16

The issue definitely is not exaggerated, and no pilot should say otherwise! Lasers can be dangerous if improperly used and the greatest danger is from beams projected directly into the eye. These can be focused by the lens (in the eye) into a very small and powerful spot capable of burning the retina and blinding people. The rules and regulations on public laser shows and displays differ from country to country although most countries follow the IEC-825 regulations. In the USA laser projection equipment needs a 'variance' and each show must be reported and have a 'site variance' issued by the CDRH. In Canada public shows and displays must be reported to the Radiation Protection Bureau in Ottawa. Before you can plan a public laser show, you have to check with the authorities having jurisdiction over radiation protection and health in your area. In laser shows
there are two main types of beam effects, static and dynamic. Static beams are usually turned on an off and may be bounced from mirrors to create a beam matrix or sculpture in the air. Dynamic beam effects are moving beams that may include sheets, fans, cones or blades of light moving above and through the audience.  The audience exposure is brief and of negligible power, and effect to the observer eye. -Obviously designed that way, if you blind the audience they are not going to be able to see and appreciate the show! Unlike a show where the beams are fast moving, or defused, a laser attack on an aircraft in flight is a deliberate attempt to keep the laser beam stationary on the aircraft for a protracted time and does at the very least cause flash blindness if you are unlucky enough to be on the receiving end., it’s a clear interference with the safe conduct of the aircraft and the practice should not be condoned in anyway. Any laser directed at an aircraft even if it is from a show should be reported.

Bronx

16th Dec 2009, 05:51

rokami93 I think the issue is getting exaggerated.

Whatever you as a 300 hr PPL think, it's a real problem to professional pilots in many parts of the world.

The risk of eye injury is only one of the dangers.

Loss of night vision even temporary is dangerous, especially to police/EMS helicopters at low level over cities.

wannabefemalepilot

16th Dec 2009, 21:05

Its happened to me just a couple of months ago!

Mindless :mad:

ChristiaanJ

16th Dec 2009, 22:13

I think the issue is getting exaggerated.I think you're simply missing a point.
More and more yobs are getting hold of the same kind of high-power l@sers that are used for 'l@ser shows' etc. (which CAN be handheld and battery powered) and think it's "fun" pointing them at low-flying aircraft and helicopters.
And we're NOT talking about what you call "harmless, low powered key chain l@sers".
And with helicopters in particular, it's not that difficult to "hold the beam on the target".
And with helicopters in particular, with plexiglass canopies "crazed" with a myriad minute scratches and cracks, lighting it up with a l@sers means rendering it opaque...

So please, rokami, find out what's going on, before you post like you did...

CJ

rokami93

17th Dec 2009, 11:26

These can be focused by the lens (in the eye) into a very small and powerful spot capable of burning the retina and blinding people. For how long do you think you can reasonably focus the laser to the the eye of a pilot in an aircraft flying with a speed of 230 kts or 440 km/h, 1000 m above? You fly with a speed of 120 m/s and what could the be size of the laser to hit your eye?

It will pass for a fraction of a second, and it distracts, disturbs or whatsoever, but it doesn't harm. At least not that much that it justifies to put an 18 year old to jail.

And with helicopters in particular, it's not that difficult to "hold the beam on the target".

You are right on that, especially for pilots of helicopters flying at night with scratched canopies it can be annoying. And please, don't get me wrong: I don't think it is good, excuseable or any better because it is more of an issue to a helicopter pilot at night. Btw, if you fly with a scratched canopy it will also be very annoying flying against the sun, so I would work on that.

Nevertheless, the cases I have read so far they explained a scenario where an airline pilot in its cockpit called the attention to the police. The police then flew right to the area where the lasers were detected and followed them. If they were worried at all that they could risk their life or loose control of their helicopter, they wouldn't have opted for this way of chasing down the elements of crime?

I think you're simply missing a point.

Maybe you missed it: my point is that the issue is exaggerated, not wrong. Something needs and should be done about it, but I don't think it is that dangerous that it justifies to lock up a stupid kid with criminals.

Whatever you as a 300 hr PPL think, it's a real problem to professional pilots in many parts of the world.

I didn't take the time to look up your qualifications, but I am quite sure no one has ever lost control of the aircraft because of a laser, not even you although it seems you get irritated quite easily.

Again, don't get me wrong: it is stupid to la-ser aircraft. As much as I hate it when kids pressed all the buttons of the elevator I am hopping in and this way making it stop on every floor before I can get out again. But it is not that dangerous that you have to declare a stupid kid a criminal one and lock it up with criminals.

Bronx

17th Dec 2009, 15:57

rokami93
Nevertheless, the cases I have read so far they explained a scenario where an airline pilot in its cockpit called the attention to the police. The police then flew right to the area where the l@sers were detected and followed them. If they were worried at all that they could risk their life or loose control of their helicopter, they wouldn't have opted for this way of chasing down the elements of crime?

Try reading the very first post that started this thread and the appeal court decision in post #82.

It's not the only laser v helicopter incident mentioned in the thread, just one example.

B.

beamender99

17th Dec 2009, 21:23

BBC report
Laser 'blinds' air ambulance crew

The lives of an air ambulance crew and a seriously injured man were put at risk by someone shining a laser pen at the pilot as he was trying to land.
Warwickshire and Northamptonshire Air Ambulance said a high-powered beam had obscured the flight instruments and the pilot's view a number of times.
The aircraft was carrying a man, 37, from Kent who had fallen 29ft (8.8m) off scaffolding in Leicestershire.
It managed to land safely at University Hospital Coventry and Warwickshire.

'Serious matter'
The ambulance service said a laser pen had been shone by someone sitting in a car parked close to the hospital's landing pad at about 1500 GMT on Wednesday.
It was shone into the helicopter cockpit while it was landing and again when it was taking off, the service said.
Steve Porter, air operations manager said: "This is a really serious matter.
"Not only is this childish prank putting lives at risk as it is difficult for the pilots to see, but it also adds valuable time on to a life saving mission as we try to land the helicopter and transfer seriously ill patients to further care."

Cubbie

17th Dec 2009, 21:31

The green lasers you can buy on ebay for 50bucks, with a range of 12000 to 25000ft fall into the Class III category, and generally are powered from 5–500 mW. Lasers in this category can cause permanent eye damage with exposures of 1/100th of a second or less depending on the strength of the laser, thus protective eyewear is recommended when direct beam viewing of Class III lasers. 1/100th of a second is faster than the eye blink reflex, there by the laser will cause damage to your retina before your natural blink reflex to protect the eye can kick in.-A fraction of a sec and your are blinded, that’s all it takes. If you think that’s exaggerated and wont do any damage to your eye, that’s your call there is plenty of data available if you do the research, I would prefer to err on the side of safety.

sparry

17th Dec 2009, 21:45

I have personally never understood why anyone caught doing this sort of thing is not charged with attempted murder. These people surely should understand the potential seriousness of doing such things.

anonythemouse

19th Dec 2009, 05:15

Rokami93, by your comments and general attitude I take it that you have never been on the receiving end of a laser illumination. As for making this dumb kid a criminal, I believe that he was one already. If he had admitted the offence and did not have a criminal background then he would have been entitled to a caution. His 'background' is taken into account as is the nature of the offence such as was it a single ilumination or a sustained one. I don't know many helicopters that travel at 230kts so you must be referring to airplanes. Most airplanes are hit on final approach when there speed is relatively low, their airframe ''dirty' and their glidepath predictable. They are hit at a time when they at a critical stage of flight, with very few options! The people that target Police helicopters do not give a quick 1/1000 of a second sweep, that is just the attention getter, they continue to target the cockpit. The effects of sunlight on a scratched or dirty canopy is very different from that of a laser. Laser illuminations tend to happen at night where the laser will saturate the receptors of the eye and obscure the background detail (limited though that information is anyway). Sunlight does not refract around the cockpit like shards of glass as lasers do. When we are illuminated or called to an area where illuminations are reported we assess the risk to ourselves. I have made decision in the past to not attempt to apprehend the perpetrators because the risk to ourselves was too great (low cloud/viz, local hazards and geography of the area). By your arguement firemen should never go into burning buildings to rescue people because they are at risk! This issue has been highlighted in the press and other media to inform people of the dangers they are imposing on others by their actions. Anyone who ignores such information is only portraying themselves as a danger to others. Please remember also that the reckless endangement of an aircraft is an offence.

10002level

19th Dec 2009, 09:47

As someone who has been targeted several times by lasers I am pleased to see that one idiot has been removed from society, allbeit temporarily. It is sad though that he comes from the small village where my parents live.

BTW, does anyone know why the "a" in l a s e r becomes "@"??

rokami93

19th Dec 2009, 09:58

Rokami93, by your comments and general attitude I take it that you have never been on the receiving end of a laser illumination

Yes, I have had laser reflections on my canopy before. A bit further up I explained. Also, laser in a club where I went out, passed my eye more than once. This is far closer than sitting in an aircraft.

His 'background' is taken into account as is the nature of the offence such as was it a single ilumination or a sustained one

I didn't want to make a statement or judge on a single case which I don't know and cannot evaluate. My statement was more of a general nature and aimed to other forum participants who seem to be in favor of lynching.

They are hit at a time when they at a critical stage of flight, with very few options! The people that target Police helicopters do not give a quick 1/1000 of a second sweep, that is just the attention getter, they continue to target the cockpit.

That is, indeed, nasty and stupid. But I guess we have make a difference between guys blinding police helicopters to keep them away from doing their job and a bunch of stupid kids trying to aim at passenger aircraft on their approach.

By your arguement firemen should never go into burning buildings to rescue people because they are at risk!

Anon, let's carefully balance the reasons and awaited outcome for the doings of a fireman who knows that there is someone about to die in a burning house if he doesn't get in and rescues him and on the other side an eager policeman in his 3 million dollar helicopter and 500 l of fuel over residential areas chasing kids which make the stupid intent to reach the eye of an airline captain in his cockpit are completely different stories.
What is the probability that someone gets harmed when kids are pointing with a laser on a landing aircraft? - Near zero.
How much harm will we cause to a kid and to public interest chasing it down in a 3-million-dollar-helicopter? -Maybe 2000 Bucks for the helicopter and 20-60K for prosecution and jail time which we could have used for education.?If our only answer to idiocy is punishment and jail, we will eventually end up like the US where an explosion in inmate numbers in recent years means that although the US makes up 5% of the total global population, it now accounts for 25% of the world's prisoners. If it goes on like that, they will eventually end up locking up themselves.

It is sad though that he comes from the small village where my parents live.

Would it be any better for aviation if the fool would come from a big city a bit further away from your parents' house?

BTW, does anyone know why the "a" in l a s e r becomes "@"??

Google for A S E suppression filters or read this thread. It has been answered a few times before. Your question reflects typical lack of knowledge, lack of respect and disregard of netiquette. Would you lock yourself up now for a while, please? :}

NautilusT

19th Dec 2009, 18:08

Hi. I wondered if I might ask a question. I've come across a user on YouTube who is filming air traffic at night. She believes that they are in fact "morphing fake planes" piloted by extraterrestrials. It is clearly obvious in her videos that they are actually common aircraft and it has been shown that she lives very close to several airports, as she once posted her full name and address and invited people to come and see the "UFO's" for themselves.

In her latest video you can clearly hear her tell her children to "light up" what is obviously a plane with lasers. At one point you can actually hear the engine and she states that it is actually "fake noise". People pointed out that it is illegal to point lasers at aircraft and she promptly deleted the video, but not before I and a few others managed to download it. Should we report her and attach a copy of the video? You don't actually see the lasers, so I'm not sure how to proceed.

Oh, in addition to this she has also flashed aircraft with high intensity lights.

anonythemouse

19th Dec 2009, 18:30

Rokami93. The laser that you refer to in the night club would have been tested and cleared for such use. Its NOHD (Nominal Ocular Hazard Distance) would have been calculated and passed as safe for such use. The lasers we are being targetted with are far more powerful. When the laser reflected around your canopy were you travelling from A to B or remaining in the area to carry out your lawful vocation? You see, if we get called to any area due to laser activity against aircraft at our local airport the 'offence' has already been committed and what we are doing is our job in apprehending the offenders. The aircraft at our local airport are targetted at a critical stages of flight (final approach). Are the the crew and passengers not entitled to the protection of the law when such a dangerous act is carried out against them? If a person on the ground hinders a police officer in the course of his duty do you not consider it appropriate for them to be arrested and subjected to due process? We have a legal right to be where we are doing what we do, the perpetrators of laser illuminations are breaking the law! Its not as if they haven't been given warning of the danger that laser illumination poses or warned that it is a criminal offence. They have, with full knowledge of the facts, decided to stick 2 fingers up and defy the law and should be dealt with as any other person is when challenging the law. Maybe you have only experienced laser illumination on one occassion but the industry faced with it on a daily basis and individuals subjected to it weekly. From your comment on my analogy of the fireman and the burning building do I take it that you do not consider the passengers of an aircraft and the crew to be in danger. One day, one of these idiots is going to cause a catostrophic accident resulting in the loss of life! Maybe we should refrain from sending Armed Response Police to incidents involving firearms as long as the person who has committed an offence isn't doing it any more? Offenders who end up in jail for this offence will (typically) have a criminal record already, have denied the offence when challenged and shown little or no remorse for their actions, they basically don't give a sh1t! You sound like a social worker or idealist. Ask any Police pilot if he would prefer to end the year with 100 successful arrests for laser illumination or no arrests because no one has carried out the act, I know that I would vote for the latter, as would all those in my unit.

10002level

19th Dec 2009, 19:52

rokami93,

Should this thug be located elsewhere it may be better for the aviation world as he is currently under the approach for Manchester - or at least he would be were he not residing as a guest of Her Majesty :ok::ok:

However, that was not really my point. My parents are both elderly and I do not relish the idea of such a person living nearby. You will no doubt understand this when you are a little more mature.

Admiral346

19th Dec 2009, 23:29

ChristiaanJ

fine post!

Nic

assymetricdrift

21st Dec 2009, 00:09

Ok, here is a slightly strange one. I don't believe that it is a l@ser, but this has happened to me three times in the last week or so.

But on descent into Newcastle, we have been caught by a couple of quite bright torch beams, which managed to catch us at around 12000 feet. The lights themselves are not like l@sers, and are actually looking like searchlights. They are not green.

However, they do trace us as we are flying into Newcastle - today the light was being shone into the flightdeck for a good couple of minutes. However, we have reported these incidents a couple of times to ATC. It's very strange though... I don't know who they are or what they are playing at - but in my mind, it's not like the previous l@ser attacks I have encountered.

AmishUFO

23rd Dec 2009, 08:30

I need your help people. There is a woman in Murrysville Pa who is posting videos of herself attacking landing airplanes with lasers and high intensity lamps(18 million lumens). She has posted videos of herself doing this and I happened upon it and it has just gotten me extremely angry. She believes these lights in teh sky are UFOs when in fact they are small planes or jetplanes which are trying to land in one of the 7 airports in her area. The woman is insane and she needs to be stopped ASAP.

I come to you to ask for your advice. HOW DO I GO ABOUT REPORTING HER? I need expert help before this woman gets people killed. Her name is ALison Kruse and she is all over Youtube bragging about how she zaps the aliens with laser and high intensity lamps.

below I attached the link of excerps of her very own video. The video was posted by anotehr youtuber and it basically shows this woman doing the unthinkable along with her daughter. Her very own words betray her. In other videos she has herself shining the high intensity lamps at the airplanes.

YouTube - UFO- MORESEEINGUFOSPA (ALISON) BUSTED POINTING A LASER AT PLANES IN HER AREA: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vo4XQhZogY)

ALl I ask is for your help.
THANK YOU.

anonythemouse

23rd Dec 2009, 11:30

Watched the video, saw the plane, heard the instructions but didn't see a single laser in use. Another UFO hoax methinks! The video clearly calls for it to be sent to the FAA. Why? If the maker has the video and have had it long enough to edit it with subtitles there would be no need to get others to submit it, unless they were attempting to coerce people into swamping the FAA system with it!

AmishUFO

25th Dec 2009, 16:24

Ladies and gentlemen, there is a lady on Youtube who is activily attacking our pilots with all kinds of lasers. She has video taped herself and she has no intensions of stopping. Please join me in putting an end to her crazy activity by reporting her to the proper authorities.

here is the link. You will be amazed.

YouTube - UFO- Alison Kruse(MoreSeeingUFOsPA)"LASER ATTACK" compilation. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjhqNX09EM0)

The originals are all over Youtube. As you can see this is a compilation. This individual has been activily shining airplanes in her area for about a year and she films herself to boot. Recently it has been discovered where she lives and now the reports are being files. We need teh aviation community to rally around this one case. This arrogant woman tags planes as they are on appraoch to one of the 5 airports near her. She does this under the pretense that there is a UFO invasion of the woods by her house. THIS WOMAN IS A DANGER TO THE PILOTS OF THE AREA AND HAS TO BE STOPPED.

Below is an orginal video unaltered.
YouTube - Laser - Triangle UFO Transformer 9-24-09 Seen by Many by Pittsburgh.mp4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWEjWFXvsww)

I want to also say that this woman now knows that we are reporting her and as a result she has pulled all her videos regarding lasers but not before we downloaded them and reported her. She now engages in truth suppression and is activily flagging the videos as soon as we post them. It is too late for her regarding the FAA but her case should make national news. She is an arrogant woman who believes she is doing nothing wrong. MY GOD!

Yenaldlooshi

29th Dec 2009, 09:03

The common green DPSS diode laser is emitting @ 532 nm; near the peak frequency of the Human eye. Fortunately most juveniles can't afford the more powerful devices, and the <5mw pointers, other than being a temporary distraction will produce no permanent damage to the eye. As far as your night vision where flying is concerned, it's going out the window, and can produce temporary blindness. Inside the 5mi. airport boundary on short final @ 130 kts or so, things happen very fast and if you get nailed coming out of the cloud bases on a 200 & a 1/2 inst approach you are going to have a difficult time at touchdown or executing a miss. The autopilot set for a miss is the safest way after getting hit.

A second crewmember helps, a luxury most single engine light AC don't have. I think I would be more concerned in today's atmosphere of terrorism that something else may be following the beam. ...Such as a rifle projectile! Some folks have been removing the freq. conversion crystal from these cheap green lasers and they then emit a 808 NM beam in the IR and can fry your eye quickly as the power level is MUCH higher when unconverted and unfiltered and at the most dangerous frequency range to the Human eye.

I suffered a Laser burn on the retina from scattering of an Excimer (Exciplex) UV Laser during a legitimate medical lab ablation experiment back in the 1970's and the small burn spot is still there! It was a light leak (defect) in my laser goggles.

Improperly aimed and controlled, this high power UV laser could burn a hole through your eye and the back of your head!

I once watched an IR 10.6 micron flowing gas CW (continuous wave) Co2 laser being fired for the 1st time at a lab in So. Cal at Union Carbide's KORAD Division in the mid 60's. It burned through the MANY multiple layers of refractory firebrick backstop, the back cement brick wall of the building, and completely through a cars body and transmission in the parking lot to scatter and dissipate in an empty field behind the building. It only was rated at 10kw, small by today's standards. Fortunately, not many can afford that kind of Laser horsepower, but it's out there!

Some Jihadist Flash Gordon moron will no doubt try to cut an aircraft in two at some point if they can get the equipment together. Actually you can build a very powerful cutting laser for a couple hundred bucks and some junk off the scrap pile.

P.S. I'm still able to get a 1st class medical though and 16500 turbine hours later, still have no problem passing the eye exam.

Check out these guys. Red, Blue, Green Laser Pointer and Torch Flashlight - Wicked Lasers (http://www.wickedlasers.com/) Perpetrators of Mayhem.

Yenaldlooshi

29th Dec 2009, 09:14

A woman in possession of a room temperature IQ.
A candidate for retroactive abortion.

Quick! ...Somebody! ....Put more chlorine in the gene pool!

Yenaldlooshi

29th Dec 2009, 09:46

What you're seeing is most likely an HID flashlight. HID is for High Intensity Discharge, and they put out massive amounts of Luminous flux (light) for substantial distances. It's a metal vapor high pressure inert gas arc lamp (NO filament) in a flashlight running on a Li Ion battery pack. Commonly referred to as "tactical flashlights" and used by SpecOps types, and the cops.

I bought a cheapie ($150) on eBay and at 24 watts/1400 lumens, 4300k (bright sunlight) and quick rechargeable to boot, it will light up a road sign like noon in the Sahara over a 1/2 mile away. You can get some that are super bright, kinda like your own portable neutron star if you can handle the price. It's great for that midnight walkaround preflight on an AC with a tail 30+ feet in the air, cavernous engine intakes,(to make sure no Hobo squatter has moved in to take up residence), or dark and funky wheel wells, tires & brakes. Beats the hell out of my battery inhaling halogen light.

"I love the smell of Hydraulic fluid and Jet-A in the morning" ...It smells like ...high flight.

I wonder if they make a pilot cologne?

P.S. I have nothing against Hobo's, I guess to be politically correct, I should say "Residentialy Challenged".

talking horse

29th Dec 2009, 14:24

Assymmetric Drift,

I think I have seen the same myself. I don't think it is a laser, but I believe it is part of a Christmas decoration (no, really) on Bishop Auckland (I think) Town Hall. It appears to be a bright white focussed light beam that revolves and pitches up and down. It was certainly there a couple of years ago.

Having said that, I have been illuminated by a laser while on finals to NCL 07 green laser from the right. We reported it, but I heard no more.

TH :cool:

AnthonyGA

29th Dec 2009, 19:54

Some Jihadist Flash Gordon moron will no doubt try to cut an aircraft in two at some point if they can get the equipment together. Actually you can build a very powerful cutting l@ser for a couple hundred bucks and some junk off the scrap pile.

Unfortunately, it isn't even necessary to build one yourself any more. The Chinese ZM-87 is a compact laser weapon designed specifically to blind people at distances of up to two miles. Rumor has it that this was the weapon used against the pilot and passenger of a surveillance helicopter in the Strait of Juan de Fuca in 1997. The pilot was permanently grounded due to eye damage, and his passenger suffered laser burns as well. Supposedly this weapon is no longer manufactured. You can find a few photos on the Web.

assymetricdrift

30th Dec 2009, 18:12

Talkinghorse,

Yeah, we reported it to ATC - but there appears to be one on the left hand side of the aircraft too, as well as Bishop Auckland. However, it was a little bit distracting, and neither of us could work out if it was just a decoration or following us around the sky.

07? That's a new one to me - I've been caught several times on 25 from the South Shields area! I'll have an ask to someone I know in the tower and see what the status is on the lasers at the moment. Glad to know though that I'm not the only one who hasn't heard a thing about reported l@ser attacks since reporting them. Hopefully they've caught the perpetrators now - I haven't heard of many recently.

Cheers!, AD

joeflyguy

8th Jan 2010, 04:46

What is bizarre is that in New Zealand a f@cktard with the IQ of a dead jellyfish was caught and arrested for shining a laser into the cockpits of aircraft about to land at Wellington airport. He was doing this when the aircraft were approx. only hundreds of metres from landing.

He ended up before a judge who moderately threw the book at him; no it did not entail jail time but was sending a strong message. Sadly this dickwads lawyer appealed and a new judge felt that the sentence was doing some harm to this poor misguided individual - after all its not as if anything happened or he shot the aircraft or anything did he - and reduced it to a very minor fine.

The judges need regular competency tests like pilots.

tflier

9th Jan 2010, 09:21

Flying into TFS last week, at night, the Jet2 B757 ahead of us reported being targeted by a green laser while on base leg for the easterly R/W. Fortunately they missed us.

jayteeto

9th Jan 2010, 09:48

Our aircraft was targeted this week, the offender was tracked and caught. He was given 'a stern warning' :ugh::ugh:

Finn47

12th Jan 2010, 11:22

A new law has been introduced in the UK, making it a specific offence to shine a laser at an aircraft, which will make it easier to get convictions.

The Press Association: Shining lights at planes an offence under new law (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5gMp6vgGQguzQIrRuLSEgo9k83ttw)

R04stb33f

12th Jan 2010, 14:12

Massive 25-fold rise in people shining l@sers at planes (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8454318.stm)

Cheers

Rich

ix_touring

12th Jan 2010, 17:31

There's a news item about lasers on BBC London News tonight (in the next 10 mins or so!).

iX

Legalapproach

13th Jan 2010, 05:33

Post 82, September 2008:
Prison sentence upheld for l@zer louts *
Some of you may recall a recent thread concerning two oafs who had targeted a l@zer pen at a police helicopter. They came before HH Judge Tudor Owen at Snaresbrook Crown Court who sentenced them to six months custody.
The Court of Appeal recently considered their appeals and dismissed them observing that in the view of their Lordships the case clearly crossed the custody threshold and such a case could not be dealt with by any lesser penalty.
The Court further observed that His Honour Judge Owen "plainly took a great deal of care over this case." In passing sentence the learned judge said the message should go out that people who target helicopters in this idiotic and dangerous way should expect to receive custodial sentences.
"In our judgment the learned judge was right to make it clear that custodial sentences will usually follow when offenders committing this offence are caught*."

CAA Press Release 9th April 2009:
"Laser louts to be targeted in new campaign"
The UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is today launching a campaign to tackle the growing problem of lasers being maliciously directed at aeroplanes and helicopters, which can cause a significant safety risk. The move follows a dramatic rise in the number of incidents of pilots being distracted by lasers during critical phases of flight. During 2008 a total of 206 cases were reported to the CAA, compared with only 29 in 2007.
"There have already been a number of successful prosecutions in the UK with offenders receiving custodial sentences, and the new campaign aims to highlight the penalties that they face."
Bob Jones, Head of Flight Operations at the CAA, said: “To those individuals targeting aircraft with laser devices the message is clear – don’t. You will be caught and you will be prosecuted and *you could spend up to five years in prison*.”

CAA Press Release 12th Jan 2010: "New powers to tackle aircraft laser crime introduced"
A new law that makes shining a light or laser at an aircraft a specific criminal offence has been introduced. The UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA), which initiated the new law, said it was in response to the growing number of incidents involving laser devices being shone at airliners and helicopters near British airports.
Previously, anyone caught shining a laser at an aircraft may have been charged with ‘recklessly endangering an aircraft’. Offenders may now be charged with ‘shining a light at an aircraft in flight so as to dazzle the pilot’, which it is expected will increase the conviction rate.
The CAA said that distracting or dazzling a pilot with a light or laser represented a serious safety risk.
The numbers of reported incidents of this type have increased 25 times in only two years. In 2009 there were a total of 737 attacks with lasers on commercial airliners, air ambulances and police helicopters across the UK, a considerable increase on the 29 incidents in 2007. Although there have been around a dozen successful prosecutions so far, many more arrests are expected as police air support units roll out new technology to catch offenders.
Bob Jones, Head of Flight Operations at the CAA, said:* “This new criminal charge will strengthen the hand of law enforcement agencies in their efforts to tackle this problem. I advise individuals who may think shining a laser at an aircraft is a bit of fun, to think again. The chances of getting caught are increasing rapidly and, once caught, criminal charges are now inevitable."
The malicious use of lasers against aircraft has become a global problem in recent years with large numbers of incidents reported in the USA, Australia and Canada. 737 in the UK in 2009.

So -

A serious safety risk
A dramatic increase in reported incidents (x 25 in only two years)
2007: 29
2008: 206
2009: 737
A Judge says the message should go out that people who target helicopters in this idiotic and dangerous way should expect to receive custodial sentences.
The Court of Appeal says the Judge was right.And was does the CAA/DfT do?
Introduce a specific offence to deal with the problem:
- That gives the courts no power to impose custodial sentences!!! :D:D
- And even limits the maximum fine that can be imposed to £2500. :D:D
- Triable in the Magistrates Courts only - not by Judges in the Crown Court.:D:D

*"Offenders may now be charged with ‘shining a light at an aircraft in flight so as to dazzle the pilot’, which it is expected will increase the conviction rate."*
"Increase the conviction rate"? :confused:
How many (if any) laser louts prosecuted under the old law (Endangering) have not been convicted? As far as I know: None!

The courts used to impose fines when lasers attacks were relatively rare.
When they became much more prevalent and a serious problem in the past couple of years, the courts sensibly imposed more severe punishments and started sending people to prison.
This new offence takes us back to fines! :rolleyes:

fulham fan

13th Jan 2010, 08:45

legal approach - it is the Government (DfT) not the CAA that defines max penalties etc for UK aviation laws

Rubicks13

13th Jan 2010, 15:25

Hi All,

Found this article and thought that it was interesting.

Shining light or laser at aircraft cockpit in U.K. is now a criminal law. (http://aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awx/2010/01/12/awx_01_12_2010_p0-196274.xml&headline=Laser%20Attacks%20On%20U.K.%20Cockpits%20Now%20Crim inal&channel=comm)

CUBE

anonythemouse

13th Jan 2010, 22:46

The idea behind redifining the offence was to avoid having to prove 'reckless endangerment' and make the offence a simple one of shining the laser at the aircraft in the first pace.

Flying Bull

14th Jan 2010, 05:07

A man was convicted on 13 Jan 2010 for shining a laser onto a police helicopter and thereby blinding the pilot - who luckly was flying with the autopilot engaged. Sentence was 10 month prison - on probation - and 1000 € (wich ~ one month pay)
Polizeipresse: Landesamt für Zentrale Polizeiliche Dienste NRW - POL-LZPD: Polizeihubschrauber mit Laser geblendet - 10 Monate Haft auf Bewährung und 1.000,- Euro Geldstrafe (http://www.presseportal.de/polizeipresse/pm/67238/1543863/landesamt_fuer_zentrale_polizeiliche_dienste_nrw?search=hubs chrauber)

Greetings Flying Bull

Legalapproach

14th Jan 2010, 06:14

I am not aware of an unsuccesful prosecution where reckless endangerment was charged for shining a light/l@ser. The new offence may increase the number of charges/convictions but not the conviction rate.

Further, Article 222 provides:

222. A person must not in the United Kingdom direct or shine any light at any aircraft in flight so as to dazzle or distract the pilot of the aircraft.

If the requirement for the offence is "..so as to dazzle or distract the pilot..." would this not in all probability amount to reckless or negligent endangerment in any event?

Is there anyone on Pprune who would disagree with the proposition that targeting a laser at a helicopter or fixed wing cockpit is inherently dangerous and therefore likely to endanger the safety of that aircraft? Thus we seek to discourage it.

The first principle is that a person who is tempted to blind a pilot with a high powered light or l@ser is a moron to begin with. Previously some (although I accept not all) of the morons who were tempted to do it might just have been deterred by the likelihood that, if caught, they would go to prison. Now the greatest risk is a fine. The point I was making was simply that in terms of deterrence (and in the light of Court of Appeal judgements as to the appropriate level of sentence) the introduction of this offence does virtually nothing to enhance avaiation safety.

As an example
Most people reading this will have exceeded the speed limit at some point. Why? It is against the law but the penalty, a fine and points on the licence. (Obviously the more points a motorist has the less they may be inclined to break the speed limit).

Significantly fewer will drink and drive. Why? Fine plus automatic disqualification.

Fewer still will, with a previous drink drive conviction, drink and drive again. Why? Fine plus real risk of prison and much longer disqualification.

The greater the known penalty the less the temptation. Simples

Bronx

14th Jan 2010, 13:05

anonythemouse
The idea behind redifining the offence was to avoid having to prove 'reckless endangerment' and make the offence a simple one of shining the l@ser at the aircraft in the first pace.
I thought proving either reckless or negligent was enough. There's been lots of convictions for endangering reported in this forum and in R&N. Has anyone got off? Even if there was a problem getting convictions, which Legalapproach says there isn't, what's the idea behind making the worst punishment for the new offense a fine? :confused:
The number of laser attacks have rocketed in many countries, its a serious flight safety problem, judges have sent several people to jail, the British Court of Appeal said they should go to jail and the new offence has a worst punishment of, wait for it .................. a fine. :rolleyes:
How stupid is that. :ugh:

Pugilistic Animus

14th Jan 2010, 21:06

I lived in the South Bronx 3 years,...:ok:

sorry,..nice to see someone close to my geographic position representin' NY:)

PA

TEEEJ

24th Jan 2010, 23:25

That UFO nutjob from Pennsylvania has been back out with her laser. :ugh:

Video from 23rd January 2010

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/eRAkkrfYI5g&hl=en_GB&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/eRAkkrfYI5g&hl=en_GB&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

TJ

BHenderson

25th Jan 2010, 00:33

Has anyone considered that some people might shine a l'aser at an aircraft not with the intention of blinding the occupants, but simply to see how far the light travels? There will always be those that wish to cause harm, but I imagine a large number are simply down to curiosity.

There should be some proper publicity regarding the dangers and potential punishments. How can you expect people to stop doing this, if they don't know it's wrong?

SummerLightning

25th Jan 2010, 03:24

Ignorance of the law is no defence. Sure, some publicity might help to educate the public, but most small boys tire of pulling the legs off flies and playing with matches at an early age, as a result of boredom, sometimes painful realisation that their actions have consequences, or the acquisition of some semblance of intelligence and morality.
UK law has changed in two ways. First, the use of lasers is now a specific offence. Second, it's a strict liability offence.. In other words, you can't claim that you did it to test how well your laser pen worked or that you were communicating with UFOs, or that you had a very troubled childhood from which you've failed to grow up.

IJM

25th Jan 2010, 03:51

On the YouTube clip, it appears to show the culprit's name - Alison Kruse? I would be surprised if the local Police haven't knocked on her door yet.

Listening to the "commentary" she does sound a bit "heid the baw" (I don't normally use Glasgow patter, hailing from another part of Scotland, but this expression is a pretty good description).

grumpyoldgeek

26th Jan 2010, 02:49

Sacto 9-1-1: Rocklin man sentenced to 4-year prison term for laser pointing (http://www.sacbee.com/static/weblogs/crime/archives/2010/01/rocklin-man-sen.html)

For all the criticism the US gets, I think we handled this quite well...

Bronx

26th Jan 2010, 07:07

SummerLightning

it's a strict liability offence
The new UK law Article 222 of the 2009 ANO states: “A person must not in the U.K. direct or shine any light at any aircraft in flight so as to dazzle or distract the pilot of the aircraft.”
What does "so as to" mean? :confused:

Does it mean the DA has to prove the guy pointing the laser 'intended to' dazzle or distract the pilot?
Or that the laser did dazzle or distract the pilot?
Or both?

grumpyoldgeek
Yep, although lasers are a global problem, for some reason the UK has gone out of step not only with America but most other countries. The new offense doesn't give UK courts power to send laser offenders to prison!
Max penalty of a fine is a great deterrent. :rolleyes:

st7860

26th Jan 2010, 07:24

Canada is just like the UK

Yes. People who shine lasers at planes but don't yet crash them should still be jailed.

However, in Canada, people who do _really_ nasty things that cause big injuries rarely get jail time.

In this situation, America has the right answer.

paarmo

26th Jan 2010, 22:17

Gazette Live - News - Local News - Two teens arrested under Air Navigation Order (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/2010/01/26/two-teens-arrested-under-air-navigation-order-84229-25686387/). Location North East of England, nearest airport MME about 5 miles. The system works , at least it does here.

treblemaker

29th Jan 2010, 08:07

Regarding the video posted above, I have engaged the youtube poster in what might loosely be called "discussion". She has disclosed the location from where it was taped, the time and the direction in which they were looking. The "light" in the video happens to almost _exactly_ correspond with flight SWA1840 from KMCO to KPIT on Saturday, 23 Jan 2010. If the pilots of that flight were in any way affected by the laser I'm sure they may wish to take up the issue with the above youtube poster. Hope this helps. -- T.

SummerLightning

31st Jan 2010, 03:23

Bronx, you've highlighted what seems to be poor drafting in the UK law. I hadn't read the Act in detail. The intention as I understand it was to create a strict liability offence, but 'so as to' can be construed in either/both of the ways you mention, and it will be, resulting in failed prosecutions.

I'm not sure why many of our politicians don't have English as their first language, but sadly that seems to be the case.

Those Pennsylvanian ufo thingies were 'hovering', by the way, or so I've been informed by a keen observer of extraterrestrial matters in that area in response to my YouTube comments.

Fair game, then. Obviously 'grey' pilots with their legendarily large eyes won't be bothered by lasers at all. Bless 'em, they're even blinking their lights back at us...

Dan Dare

2nd Feb 2010, 13:14

“A person must not in the U.K. direct or shine any light at any aircraft in flight so as to dazzle or distract the pilot of the aircraft.”

That'll make me think twice about turning the runway lights up too soon in the morning :rolleyes:

mmurray

3rd Feb 2010, 04:33

Irfan Bozan risks visa loss of Qantas laser incident | Adelaide Now (http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/irfan-bozan-risks-visa-loss-of-qantas-laser-incident/story-e6frea6u-1225826315636)

got a 14 month suspended sentence for shining a green laser at a Qantas cockpit.

Michael

horsebadorties

17th Feb 2010, 09:39

AERO - Reducing the Threat of Laser Illuminations (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/qtr_01_10/3/)

Thick Blue Line

17th Feb 2010, 13:52

The phrase 'so as to' should mean that the offence will be complete whether the offender has intentionally or recklessly managed to get the light pointer on the aircraft.

I would imagine the basic points to prove would be that the offender was the person in possession of the pen, that they had shone it towards the aircraft and that the pilot had been 'distracted' in any way.

I will try to check on this later and post an update. Given the fact that for obvious reasons pilots struggle to pinpoint the location of where the light was shone from, it is difficult to catch offenders in the act.

What would be useful is for it to be an offence to be found in possession of a laser pen or similar implement in a public place. That way (in uk) if police have information of when and where (roughly) l@ser pens are being used, they will have good grounds to stop/search individuals in those areas, pro-actively looking for said items!

This would be similar to current going equipped to steal and offensive weapon legislation. In fact, possession of an offensive weapon legislation could be used to arrest someone found in possession of a pen now, (article adapted for use to cause injury) although im pretty sure thats not been tested in the Uk so far.

TBL

eastern wiseguy

6th Mar 2010, 14:34

BBC News - Man sentenced over laser attack (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8549831.stm)

Community service.......:ugh::ugh:

eocvictim

6th Mar 2010, 16:11

I think the punishment was fair. He certainly wont do it again :ok:

Flying Bull

7th Mar 2010, 08:35

Hi all,

2nd guy catched by the police of NRW / Germany.

The helicopter, involved in a search, was repeatedly attacked by a green laser.
Groundforces were send to the house, where they found an 14 year old boy, who handed out a green laserpionter.
Lets see, what the court makes out of this incident.

Greetings Flying Bull

Yaw String

12th Mar 2010, 05:18

Suffered a laser attack on finals, Manila last week, at about 4 DME. Illuminated right side overhead panel of our B767.
Reported to a seemingly disinterested ATC. Filed a company MOR.
Same turnaround, picked up a 3' steel bolt in #5 tire, presumed during taxying to stand. Wheel changed. FOD a real problem on Manila apron!

niknak

9th Apr 2010, 21:05

Did you report your experience?
Anyone suffering this should do so directly to ATC - at our unit we now have a standing order which means that any such reports are reported via the 999 system.
Although the offence is now punishable by imprisonment More needs to be done to stop this!!! isn't easy.
The only thing we can hope for is that the courts continue to impose prison sentences and the terms get longer.

Flap40

31st Aug 2010, 18:17

One that got caught.

Jail for man who shone laser at police helicopter (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/5045174.Jail_for_man_who_shone_laser_at_police_helicopter/)

What the article does not mention is that shortly before this incident the accused had shone the laser at an airliner, hence the presence of the helicopter.

axefurabz

16th Sep 2010, 16:43

From BBC Scotland:

A man who shone a laser pen at a Tornado jet as it was trying to land at RAF Leuchers in Fife has been jailed for four months.
Radu Moldovan, 28, kept the beam focused on the jet cockpit for up to ten seconds, distracting the pilot and navigator.
Cupar Sheriff Court heard only the skill of the pilot prevented a crash.

ACARS

17th Sep 2010, 23:53

SLF on BA flight into NCL this evening. Green laser in the Sunderland area (A182/A183). Only a short burst.

Also a pilot departing Heathrow this evening reported a green laser pointed at them near the M25/M4 junction. Heard it on my scanner that I shouldn't be listening to.:=

st7860

17th Sep 2010, 23:55

@Yawstring - what if you declared an emergency(which it is, you can't see well). that would get ATC;s attention.

mike-wsm

18th Sep 2010, 09:46

The police are cracking down on l@sers at Bristol airport, see report here (http://www.westonsupermarepeople.co.uk/groups/policeandcrimes/Police-crackdown-youths-dazzle-pilots-Bristol/story-7281383-detail/story.html).

Just a spotter

18th Sep 2010, 13:10

Seems it happening at DUB and near SNN too.

Aircraft laser thugs target garda chopper - National News, Frontpage - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/aircraft-laser-thugs-target-garda-chopper-2335226.html)

For those not familiar with Dublin, Malahide is on the coast, to the north of 28 approach while Darndale is to the south about 4km from the airport.

JAS

theredbarron

20th Sep 2010, 08:12

The Strathclyde Police helicopter was targeted last Thursday from the crowd at the Papal Mass in Bellahouston Park, Glasgow. BBC News this morning reporting that an 18 yo man has been arrested. Hope they get a cell ready for him for a long stay.

SinglePin

20th Sep 2010, 10:38

Laser misuse and the potential danger to aircraft does not appear to be getting through, even with the ‘high profile’ cases and custodial sentences. In the last month I’ve been hit (that is a cockpit illumination) three times and one attempted (did not hit cockpit) on approach to LGW, Dublin and Corfu all ASR reported and followed up by the police. The chance of capture is slim. With in excess of 350 pax onboard, will it take an incident to curb this trend? Even more powerful lasers are easily available. The trend is worrying.

spanner the engineer

20th Sep 2010, 18:16

a well meaning uncle bought my two year old a 'gun' lots of exciting noise and , guess what - a laser sight, all for a couple of quid. where does it end???

md80fanatic

21st Sep 2010, 00:43

I came across a patent today. The assignee is listed as The Boeing Company.

Stowable laser eye protection - Patent 7344260 (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7344260.html)

aterpster

21st Sep 2010, 01:19

theredbaron:

Police helicopter targeted at Papal Mass
The Strathclyde Police helicopter was targeted last Thursday from the crowd at the Papal Mass in Bellahouston Park, Glasgow. BBC News this morning reporting that an 18 yo man has been arrested. Hope they get a cell ready for him for a long stay.

Plus, a laser to one eye at short range with an admonishment it will be the other eye the next time he is convicted of such.

MagnusP

21st Sep 2010, 08:11

Some tw@t in the Scotsman letter pages yesterday was bitching about prison sentences being handed out to these scrotes. "As long as it doesn't do physical harm, then why?". :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Next up: why car drivers shouldn't dip their headlights.....

Double Zero

21st Sep 2010, 08:32

Excuse me if this has been mentioned before, but in one of his novels Tom Clancy mentions an airliner being brought down by a military Pilot Incapacitation L@ser. ( these things were fitted on some RN warships in the Falklands War, but the official line is that they never saw use ).

PIL's are against the Geneva Convention and supposedly binned now; though if I was on a ship under attack I for one would use anything.

Fantasy on Clancy's part ?

This is the author who foresaw using a hijacked airliner as a kamikaze weapon some years before 9/11...

It amazes me this subject isn't taken more seriously, I suspect a lot of it is about not putting off SLF, or indeed giving idiots ideas.

alainthailande

22nd Sep 2010, 17:09

Idiots never run out of ideas: a medical rescue helicopter has recently been targeted by a laser when on final approach for landing at a hospital in northern France. Of course, a seriously injured person in need for urgent care was on board.
For those who can read French:

Un laser braqué à Lille sur l'hélicoptère du Samu - Nord Éclair, l'actualité quotidienne du Nord-Pas-de-Calais, de la métropole lilloise à l'Artois (http://www.nordeclair.fr/Actualite/2010/09/21/un-laser-braque-a-lille-sur-l-helicopter.shtml)

The article says that a military chopper has been later sent to fly over the same area and has been targeted by (presumably) the same laser. People aboard have been able to precisely locate the building where the the ray was coming from. No arrest done yet.

...and because this is France, the police have complained that they haven't been involved in this operation at all, not even informed. The army chopper overflying the area for a long time at a low altitude and illuminating buildings has caused some concern among locals including police :O

chai ja

22nd Sep 2010, 22:23

We had a laser attack the other night going into LGW about 23:30 local, coming towards the Tunbridge Wells region, roughly 6000 ft straight to 26L final.
A green bright laser shining up, lighting the whole cockpit up. Whoever it was needs the balls chopping off... They were obviously listening on director as we reported it & the laser was swiftly turned off.... Whats the point ?

st7860

22nd Sep 2010, 22:24

is the UK court system as lenient as Canada?

In Canada 2 years ago a guy chopped off someone's head on the bus. The guy got off without prison time.

imr

23rd Sep 2010, 01:45

Lots of lasers around EWR last night-ATIS advertised 'unauthorized laser illumination' south of the field. Shortly thereafter tower advised departing aircraft of laser illumination north of the field.

Manxman11

23rd Sep 2010, 07:10

I was a passenger on a flight out of LGW last night approx 1945. While north of the airfield directly abeam the terminal area a bright green laser was directed up at the aircraft seemingly from near one of the car parking areas.

md80fanatic

23rd Sep 2010, 13:53

Face it, this problem isn't going away. With higher powers and more collimated beams as technology explodes, the threat will get worse .... for a time. Stiffer sentences may deter some, not enough to really matter. Eventually the thrill will wear off as most everyone, by then, will have played with a laser and shone it skyward.

Until then though, why not protect yourselves on the FD with simple theatrical gel filters? I am aware of the risk in altering the color view through the forward cockpit windows, but also understand that those windows are mounted at an angle where ground based laser beams have trouble entering.
It's the side windows where most laser strikes enter from, I am assuming.

This video demonstrates that several colors of gel filters will completely absorb green laser light.

YouTube - Color example with lasers (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgeLs2SO7fY&feature=player_embedded#!)

These filter sheets come in sizes that can be easily trimmed to cover the entire clear view windows. They should cling to the glass via static. Just toss it up there in known high threat environments.

There's a company called Rosco that sells these filters in any color you can imagine, sheet size is around a 2 foot square.

ATCO1962

23rd Sep 2010, 13:57

Laser hits on arriving aircraft almost seem at epidemic levels in Muscat. Speedbird called one in two nights ago. Can't believe the lunacy of people doing this.

Just goes to prove how many idiots out there do contribute to the dilution of the gene pool.

Kulhu

26th Sep 2010, 21:23

I am a la*ser enthusiast and seeing this thread from a las*er community I do have to say their are idiots out there, but dont hate the lase*r, hater the player.

I have a laser that can illumitate a water tower from >1 mile away. However i am responsible and fully check when operating. Now I know these are dangerous but so are guns and I think you are hating the wrong thing. Idiots are to blame, not tool of the almighty science.

Piltdown Man

27th Sep 2010, 08:05

As this thread shows, the threat of laser attack becomes greater each day. I have been "illuminated" many times, in many places but the ones I can remember are in MME (had a word with Special Branch, house visited etc.) and in AMS from a moving car. I (and the rest of the occupants) were lucky as nobody was injured but the thing that is most likely is temporary blindness and distraction, both of which are potentially lethal to airliners. Apart from the miscreants having parts of their anatomy removed, what I would like to see is aircraft modified so that a very unambiguous A/P engage button is installed. It should be designed so that the A/P is selectable with eyes shut so that at least you can engage the thing and perform a go around (or in the case of F70/100 fly the thing reasonably well).

PM

MagnusP

5th Oct 2010, 09:57

Another one being reported by Auntie today. Dumfries area.

BBC News - Police probe plane l@ser incident over Dumfries (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-south-scotland-11474963)

squeaker

5th Oct 2010, 15:19

Delighted to report that Luton Police actually caught a guy doing this last week. They had a report and caught him in the act, great stuff!

glad rag

5th Oct 2010, 15:34

BBC News - Police probe plane laser incident over Dumfries (http://redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bbc.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk-scotland-south-scotland-11474963&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Fnewreply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewre ply%26p%3D5975204%26noquote%3D1)

"In recent weeks two motorists, including a taxi driver, have been forced to pull over after being temporarily blinded."

This is getting ridiculous.
I have always been a supporter of Safe and Responsible use of low power laser pointers in certain pursuits (ie astronomy) but these blatant attempts to cause injury and accident needs stamping on hard and fast, period.

GR

Ex Cargo Clown

7th Oct 2010, 12:36

They need proper licensing, probably to the extent of guns.

It's just getting stupid now, any chav can get one, and cause all manner of chaos with one.

glad rag

7th Oct 2010, 16:29

They need proper licensing, probably to the extent of guns.

As a certificate owner I doubt this will change one thing.
If the idiots have them they will abuse them.
If they do, then they should be jumped on from a great height.

Then the owners banged up.

MagnusP

8th Oct 2010, 07:12

Licensing is unlikely to change things. Guns are licensed, but it's generally the unlicensed ones that do the damage.

In an ideal world (hah!), widely-available l@sers could be made available only at a fixed wavelength which could then be blocked by filters on the flight deck, either film on the 'screen or designed into glasses.

Whippersnapper

8th Oct 2010, 18:29

He only got four months for his sentence. I don't understand why it is treated as a minor offence rather than attempted mass murder or terrorism.

I have been targeted at LTN and DUB as well as over Borehamwood. Their end of the gene pool may be shallow, but it is very wide.:hmm:

CaptainSandL

11th Oct 2010, 10:05

Watford Observer 11 Oct 2010

South Oxhey man jailed for airline laser attack at Luton Airport

A South Oxhey roofer who used a powerful laser pen to temporarily blind the pilots of a crowded passenger jet has been jailed.

Christian Webb, 25, targeted the Ryan Air Boeing 737 after it landed at Luton Airport on the evening on August 9 this year and taxied to its stand.

Luton Crown Court heard on Friday how both pilots were forced to duck when the intense green light hit them. They were left “dazzled” by the attack and were temporarily unable to see clearly when the aircraft was still moving.

Police were alerted when Webb, of Gleneagles Close, turned the light on staff working in the nearby air traffic control tower.

Officers confronted Webb as he sat in his van in a nearby car park, where was waiting to collect his father from the very same aircraft.

Beverley Cripps, prosecuting, explained how Webb, when confronted, handed over a small red laser pointer to police.

But when the vehicle was searched a larger laser pen was discovered which emitted a powerful green beam of light.

Webb pleaded guilty to recklessly and negligently acting in a manner likely to endanger an aircraft and its passengers.

Defence counsel Furrukh Usmani argued that his client had acted out of “naivety and stupidity” and was "completely oblivious" to the danger he was causing.

He added that Webb was now feeling "remorseful" for his actions that night and for the worry he had caused his family.

Judge Richard Foster, however, said his actions had been “thoroughly stupid and dangerous.”

He said it was only good fortune that an accident hadn't occurred, adding: “This sort of behaviour in and around airports is not acceptable.”

Webb who is planning to marry his girlfriend next year was jailed for four months.

As he was led away to begin his sentence furious members of his family shouted from the public gallery "It's a waste of tax payers’ money." and "There was no disturbance whatsoever on the plane."

South Oxhey man jailed for airline laser attack at Luton Airport (From Watford Observer) (http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/8444306.Man_jailed_for_airline_laser_attack/)