Merged: ASA Staff Shortage

[zoics88]

no HF?
no idea how the action went today, but had a chat to a tech on the dog last night - the CEPU failed to get their paper work in on time and were not able to participate in industrial action (check the flurry of emails from 'corporate affairs' last night), some inter union angst to be played out?

the civil air agreement is still not ratified, no idea what the hold up is?
guess it is some political roadblock, Gillard is the sign off authority but suspect she is busy putting out 'free holiday in china' fires at the mo!

the secrecy is to avoid opposition (bill heffernan & julian mcguaran) getting hold of details ahead of sign off.

the proposal is available to all civil air members via local rep.
for the record: any proposed wage increase on floated numbers is <4% when calculated from last eba pay rise! :yuk:

[mmhbtower]

i am not waiting any longer yes just became i dont care

[blind freddy]

How about you all take a deep breath.

The agreement is all locked in black and white, and is now out of the hands of AsA and Civil Air.

It is the public servants of DEEWR and Workplace Authority that are delaying the deal at the moment. They are scruitinising the deal, and until they give their tick, neither side can do anything to progress it.

Both sides are keen to get this all sorted, and it is frustrating.

However, this is not the time to say "I don't care".

It may not happen overnight, but it will happen!

[everyonefedup]

I think people would be more understanding of the delay if we had progressed to this point last year instead of listening to TFN and his negotiating team spin every story that they could about how none of the problems are their fault. Now we finally get them to a point where they are being a bit more sensible but we all get a "be quiet because we don't want to upset anything" order. Where was TFN's order to shut his mouth last year? Just goes to show, once again, who the real professionals are.

I think what has been clear through this whole process is that the problems in ASA are not industrial ones; they are management ones. The sooner we get this CA out of the way the sooner the axe can fall of the pack of incompetent, manipulative and misguided managers that we have been lumped with. Unless of course they all get rewarded for achieving a result under "extremely difficult circumstances".

[undervaluedATC]

The sooner we get this CA out of the way the sooner the axe can fall of the pack of incompetent, manipulative and misguided managers that we have been lumped with. I reckon there would be very long odds on this happening.
Unless of course they all get rewarded for achieving a result under "extremely difficult circumstances".much more likely :* I suspect the reward package is all ready, and will be signed off by the board seconds after DEEWR signs off on the agreement.

[Baileys]

Am I missing something here???

Doesn't the proposal have to be put to a vote of ATC's, whether they be union members or not?

[mmhbtower]

blind freddy

how about you send me a copy of the doc then. why is it that we cannot see what is in it? why could we not see it before the road show, so as too be informed.

its too late to care, once again its only the centre's that matter, and as for ausfic they should not have screwed us all those years ago:)

[blind freddy]

mmhbtower,

No, I cannot email you a copy. But if your delegate hasn't been able to brief you, PM me your number, and I will get one of the Commitee of management to call you personally and give you every detail you would care to know.

If you have had a briefing, you will know as well as I do that it is not centre-centric. It is fair across the board.

Agree with your comments about the "splitters" though. I don't think they are real happy with their offers.

[BN APP 125.6]

Re: "Splitters" - Live by the sword.....

[keepemseperated]

Latest...

Unfortunately no news on Ministerial sign off. The prohibited content review has identified a few minor wording issues but still awaiting the sign off.

As others have mentioned be patient (as hard as it can be).

[5miles]

its too late to care, once again its only the centre's that matter

From what I've seen, it's our colleagues at some regional towers who will find this offer the most attractive.

Personally I'm disappointed with the outcome, but my vote isn't going to be determined by apathy.

[BN APP 125.6]

For Members, check the latest:

Here (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1230&Itemid=226)

& Here (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=30&topic=1082.msg15472#msg15472)

Anything else is scuttlebut.

[Baileys]

What happened to the Civilair graph tracking airspace closures and restrictions on the Civilair website.

It seems to be gone now. I see the stats are available under 'airspace' but the graph was a nice comparison.

It was going to be interesting to watch what happened over the next couple of months too.

[undervaluedATC]

BaileysWhat happened to the Civilair graph tracking airspace closures and restrictions on the Civilair website.

It seems to be gone now. I see the stats are available under 'airspace' but the graph was a nice comparison.

It was going to be interesting to watch what happened over the next couple of months too.I'm not sure I like your inference here Baileys.

I suggest to you that the only reason the graph may stay flatlined is that a whole bunch of previously soon to be retired controllers have just seen a big chunk of their superannuation disappear thanks to the GFC and will now be sticking around a bit longer to build it back up, temporarily alleviating the staffing problem.

[BN APP 125.6]

The figures are still there.

They seem to be staying steady.

So much for the 'renegades'.

Perhaps the problem lies somewhere else after all?

[Baileys]

My inference is that the graph which has been on the front page for so long and being used as a tool for showing the public how bad the staffing situation is, is now gone.

Is the staffing problem now suddenly fixed? Is it co-incidental that it is gone at a time when ATC CA negotiations are being finalised?

It doesn't make sense to me - that's all. It should still be there highlighting the problem.

I also notice that there have been no "Airspace Closures / Staff Reductions" since the 24th March, 2009 according to the figures.

I'm just stating the facts and asking some obvious questions.

[Howabout]

I am with Baileys on this one.

If you read my previous posts, you should realise that I am not digging - I don't want to see your negotiations come to naught. Hence, I don't need to know about the outcome. As I said before, it's an issue between you and your employer and, if it's eventually made public, then that's well and good.

I also repeat that the level of restraint on the part of your reps and the members themselves has been commendable. However, the 24th March comment by Baileys has some resonance. For those of us not in the know, who have also refused to swallow the argument that it was 'covert industrial action' solely aimed at CA negotiations, we're a bit puzzled.

The current situation, whereby there have not been any closures/service reductions since 24th March tends to reinforce the attestation by the spin-doctors that it was just a few 'renegades'.

I still don't believe it, but the public might. And I won't mention McGauran.

[undervaluedATC]

well now we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't aren't we?

has it occured to anyone that most of the civil air website stuff is done by volunteers in their own time, and perhaps they have not found the time to update the last week or so of data? I seem to recall there was a week or so before any data for March was put up.

that's before we even mention some of the new stand-by rosters that ALMS have come up with to make service interruptions less transparent to industry. It is getting harder and harder to have anyone put out a "expect delays" NOTAM due staff shortages - the only time the industry gets told is when they have to be (i.e. TIBA)

[Howabout]

Apologies UVATC; and I understand that you guys are in the proverbial 'cleft stick.'

I'll shut up for the moment, hope that it all works out and that the spin-merchants get their's eventually.

[ER_BN]

Does any AUS ATC maybe have a sinking feeling that we won the battle but lost the war??

A very few interesting months coming up, perhaps a lot more that the supposed exciting ones last year...

[undervaluedATC]

ER_BN Does any AUS ATC maybe have a sinking feeling that we won the battle but lost the war??Of course!
we lose the war every goddamn time there is an EBA eg:
9/11.
Ansett Collapse
SARS
and now the GFC.

there's always a reason why the sky is falling and why we should take what's offered without upsetting the "fragile" industry.

Does anyone really beleive that AsA will use the breathing space afforded by a temporary downturn in aviation activity to bolster ATC numbers? Here we are, 1/3rd of the way through 2009 - how many of the "100 trainees per year" have we seen in the field?

[ER_BN]

UV,

We could all get a victim complex if we were that paranoid...

I'm thinking Civil Air is the Greg Norman of the Union movement??

As for staff numbers me thinks the managers will assume the reducing traffic numbers and new technology will save them from the outcome of the ATC training debacle??

Funny thing about new technology, even when it works it usually requires excellent training to achieve all the benefits??

Whoops!

[BN APP 125.6]

Minister has apparently signed off on the deal today.

The word is that there will be some very significant increases in remuneration in the areas that really needed them to retain people - think regional areas, GAAP and also the lower ends of the payscales.

I would say in normal circumstances it would be a good deal overall - in the current breathless commentary of gloom and doom, it is probably an excellent outcome. Have no doubt - there will be questions about it's 'perceived' generosity from political and ignorant quarters.

For those already on the top experience pay levels, it is nothing special.

Well done and well played Civil Air.

(One other thing - this agreement when ratified will not solve the staffing problems. Something else will have to now be blamed. Got it yet Sen. McGuaran?)

[everyonefedup]

There is no doubt the current offer is a good deal... but one must ask why the turnaround? I know I am probably in that paranoid category... but come on... they spend millions of dollars on a team of "experts" to negotiate the CA only for TFN and the union to come up with a deal at the last minute... months overdue... achieving nothing that Airservices was after... but no one gets the sack???!!

WTF???

All I can say is that TFN may not be an astute CEO but he seems to be well versed in kissing someones behind.

As for the staffing shortages... yes they shall continue - but with Civil Air playing nice and no one drawing attention to the issue at least Airservices should be able to achieve some "productivity improvement" by sacking some of the Public Affairs team.

[everyonefedup]

I think it is better than TFN had in mind at the start of this... do you really think that it is a bad deal?

I don't know... I guess I am a bit over the CA... what I want is some real solutions for some of the problems instead of all of the diversions. The real problems (in my opinion) are the F*'%wits that are running the place. The minister is not likely to sack people in the middle of the CA but I am holding out on a glimmer of hope that they will be sacked once it is done and dusted.

Surely someone must be waking up to TFN & co's crap? The CA was a stuff up... just to think that we got an email at the beginning from TFN saying that this time would be different and all the other CA processes were crap... well done TFN! You have managed to elevate this process to a whole new level of crapness. Then we get his rubish about the shortages being fixed in August... whoopsies again. Was it JH or CF that fed you that rubbish? Then the Training "Academy" fails minimum standards in an audit... ah well... it doesn't really matter if you have TRAINED ATCs does it? As long as the numbers are there for you to quote at Senate Estimates.... and then, after all of that time and all of those people working on the CA for a year... TFN has to roll up his sleaves and do it himself.

But it is OK people... now that TFN has an "excellent" relationship with the minister we will have everything swept under the rug. Well done team... maybe Caroline Flemmming can put together a nice little PowerPoint number to tell us all how much better off we are...

So in terms of the CA package... it's better than we have had under the past CAs. Last CA we had a 4% flat increase per year... this one we get more than that plus somepeople will get a bump into the new structure. At the end of the day the CA team have achieved nothing but waste everyone's time and S*%t people off and if they had pulled their heads out of their rears last year we would have had this result before christmas.

[Baileys]

You sound surprised. Sounds like Ops Normal to me.

[undervaluedATC]

Civil air people - check the website - there is finally an electronic copy available for you to look at!

[Dick N. Cider]

everyonefedup,

Whilst I agree with some of the sentiment, the fact is that the Civil Air negotiators have done a fantastic job in an implacably hostile industrial climate. A deal last year would only have happened if one of the parties had caved in. The perseverance of Civil Air is written in the final document. Airservices only had to stall to be winning in delayed salary increases.

Such is the legacy of Workchoices and it hasn't changed enough by a long way.

The next question is when are Airservices going to address the operational viability of the system? The "Learning Academy" simply isn't cutting even to CASA's auditing against Airservices own standards and we're still short of people before we even start looking at ambitious think tank stuff.

DNC

[BN APP 125.6]

DNC rightly returns this thread to it's topic. The CA is pretty much done now - some good increases in Salary & Cond's where Civil Air argued successfully they are needed the most - entry & intermediate level to recruit and retain people.

But this does not, and will not, solve the immense staffing problems anytime soon.

And the phoney excuse of blaming controllers for a non-existent industrial campaign by a few bonus driven executives, and some complicit and ignorant political ideologues has just dissappeared. But the airspace closures have not, and will not for some time.

Perhaps the management of QF, VB etc. who seemed to have played along with the charade will now be asking why the SY PRM shifts still can not be staffed, and why the consequent cumulative delays during periods of low cloud and vis? Why the ground delays for sectors that can not fully staff their positions in the middle of the day? Why the promises of full staffing by Aug 08 have not happened? Will we see Sen McGuaran now lambasting those who are really to blame they way he threw punches at the Air Traffic Controllers from behind the protected comfy seats of Senate Estimates?

[No Further Requirements]

One thing I was disappointed with in this new CA is the still woefully low salary trainees at the 'Learning Place' get. If they want to attract the people they say they want - smart, mature and life-experienced - they will have to lift their game. I know that the Civilair position on this in the log of claims was a big increase to the trainee wage for that very reason. Pity it didn't agreed upon.

Cheers,

NFR.

[BN APP 125.6]

The upside is that the salary increases upon field training, but more importantly upon validation, are vastly accelerated compared to previously.

[cattledog]

fedup
At the end of the day the CA team have achieved nothing but waste everyone's time and S*%t people off and if they had pulled their heads out of their rears last year we would have had this result before christmas.

I would love to know how the Civil Air negotiating team could have achieved this result last year. That is a pipe dream !!!!!!
The opposition only started negotiating in 2009 WHEN THEY GOT A KICK UP THE DERIERRE from the Minister and a 95% yes vote for Industrial action. :mad:

[Dick N. Cider]

No Further Requirements,

Asked for and refused apparently. "The number of applicants is sufficient to Airservices' needs and there is no evidence that increasing the salary will improve the quality." anonymous SDL in BN

Pay peanuts - get monkeys

DNC

[missy]

fedup

At the end of the day the CA team have achieved nothing but waste everyone's time and S*%t people off and if they had pulled their heads out of their rears last year we would have had this result before christmas.

I trust this is directed at the ASA CA "Negotiating" Team (CANT).

[Howabout]

Don't sweat it Missy, I think he's on the beam.

Congratulations to the reps and members. Us outsiders who care don't know the outcome in full, but you've done yourselves proud through your reststraint, fortitude and professionalism. And that is a very sincere comment.

I don't know that you've got all you wanted, but the tenor of these posts seems to indicate that your reps didn't bend over and represented the members in a difficult environment.

As the Stones once said..'You don't always get what you waaant, but if you try sometimes, you get what you neeed!'

[Fly_by_wire]

Congratulations to civilair and its members who have shown unity and restraint throughout the campaign.

As for the result I think it is being slightly undersold. With the flatter structure there are some VERY significant increases for a lot of levels.

I stand to be corrected on this but as I read it the structure transition in conjunction with the annual increases + annual level advances (gained by work performance to a satisfactory level) equates to increases of 30%+ over 3.5 years (depending on your present level of course) which is an extremely good result.

[everyonefedup]

Sorry for the confusion people - my comments were directed at the ASA negotiating team. Like I said in my post... there is no doubt (in my mind at least) that the result that we have now is a good one and I think that Civil Air has done a great job in being professional. I guess I am just annoyed that ASA dragged its feet for so long, abused ATCs in the media, made promises that they haven't kept (August promise) and still they will continue to get their bonuses and awards.

The staffing shortage is going to get worse - with the training college is disarray we will be in a very bad place in a years time. I just wish that the Exec & Board would stand up and start taking some accountability.

[dsham]

where is wellconcerned now?? Ha? Ha?

on another note the staffing crisis is still going on, i'm on my 8th shift in a row today, then a 10 hour turnaround as I have to come in early tommorow to fill another gap.

[BN APP 125.6]

I stand to be corrected on this but as I read it the structure transition in conjunction with the annual increases + annual level advances (gained by work performance to a satisfactory level) equates to increases of 30%+ over 3.5 years (depending on your present level of course) which is an extremely good result.Some individual cases that have been worked through, apparently show over a 50% increase over 3.5 years - this is a fantastic outcome for the lower seniority controllers.

It is apparent to see now why the detail was kept 'in house' until approved. The right wing idiots would have screamed aloud and created these as 'headline' figures - without knowing the details and the facts. (Think McGuaran, assisted by his mates trolling here who can't get over the fact they are no longer in government)

For those at the top of the seniority, it is a nothing as spectacular - but Civil Air is an association - not a bunch of individuals clambering for an AWA based on non-existent untested productivity claims. (The strength of these remaining AWA contracts will become apparent in time)

The Acid test now is on the Executive to stem the airspace closures, service reductions etc. and to help the airlines stop bleeding money through delays. Who will call them to account?

In the phoney war of spin throughout the CA process, the appeal has been to 'think about' & 'help out' our customers - the best help they could get right now would be a fully staffed, fully delivered service.

[WELLCONCERNED]

Well, well, well.

A couple of controllers get a massively disproportionate rise from the EBA and you all go around like headless chooks patting yourselves and your incompetent negotiating team on the back!

The truth is, as I indicated previously, that the vast majority of controllers have been given a payrise that is way less than the cost of living when adjusted for the amount of time it's taken to negotiate the EBA - and the amount of time that has elapsed since the last EBA expired.

One can only assume that your next EBA negotiation will be managed just as badly - so in fact you will have achieved an average amortised pay rise of around 2.6 or 2.7 per cent per annum - WELL DONE - not!

Management at Airservices must be rolling on the floor with laughter at the fact that they got away with paying you less through negotiation than they might have been prepared to give you if you didn't bother negotiating! And not having to pay any rise for a year and a half since expiry of the last EBA is money in the bank for them. Watch who gets a big fat bonus for engineering that outcome - got to be worth 10-15% performance pay for at least 5 or 6 managers!

Well done to CivilAir's negotiating team - I don't think so. If I was one of the very few that got a good outcome I would become a life member of the union - and pay my fees for the next 20 years up front. But if I was one of the vast majority who have been screwed by this EBA - I would resign from the union, and use the fees to supplement my 'less than CPI' rise.

Go on - throw some spleen back at me - but look carefully at what you have accepted and say it isn't so that you've effectievly gone backwards.

[everyonefedup]

Wellconcerned - "One can only assume that your next EBA negotiation will be managed just as badly - so in fact you will have achieved an average amortised pay rise of around 2.6 or 2.7 per cent per annum - WELL DONE - not"

Where did you learn to do maths? I can't for the life of me work out how you have come up with that figure... perhaps you should go an work for Caroline Fleming - she is pretty good at stuffing up calculations as well.

Depending on where one sits in the structure the increases throughout the CA range from 21% to 30%+ (after you factor in the bump into the structure, then the increases compounding over the life of the agreement. That works out to be between 7% and 10% per annum.

Poor mathematics to one side... perhaps wellconcerned could shed light on his proposed solution to the staffing issues? Perhaps he could just redo the calculations for ATC numbers required as well?

[Baileys]

I'm with WELLCONCERNED on this. Most ATC's will end up with a less than CPI increase. You can compound whatever you want but the basics stand. Sure, a few do a lot better but most don't.

There seems to be a lot of back slapping and self-congratulating but when it's all over with later on it's just the same old 2% every six months (give or take 0.5% for 'productivity'). And as per usual it took such a massive effort to get it.

Not slagging off the union but it's disappointing from Airservices...what a surprise though!

[Howabout]

Do I detect a wee bit of panic on the part of Mr Wellconcerned? I think that I prefer to accept the judgement of the members as to the value of the outcome, given that they are the affected ones. Particularly people with a bit of cred, like Messrs OS and BN APP. I'll take your assessment as to the 'satisfaction rating' over Spin City any day. Strange, isn't it, that no one who actually does the job says they've been dudded.

Just my assessment, but I'd say that the 'perception management' arm of your organisation have to sell this as 'tough negotiating' on the part of the employer and a thorough rogering of those union renegades. Any forum, including this one, that is read by all and sundry including, no doubt, pollies' staff, will be used to broadcast the message that Civil Air was done over and were outmanoeuvred by brilliant industrial relations tactics. Smother the facts at all costs.

In my opinion, they have to, in order to try and avoid embarrassment at the next round of Senate Estimates. I doubt that the senator that I regard as an idiot that's still looking for a village will want to back down, but others might delve a little more deeply. It would be revealing, assuming the right questions were asked, if the stuff I've read about continuing shortages and your training establishment were examined with some degree of forensic thoroughnes.

As an aside, is it really caled the 'Learning Academy?' What dork thought that one up? What's wrong with something simple like ATC School or ATC College? Learning Academy? No wonder you have such a low opinion of your managerial 'betters.' W@nk-Word Bingo comes to mind.

[go-rownd]

The staff shortage within Oz ATC can only come about if their "Learning Academy" 's, Management, Instructional Staff, and ancillary equipment are of a competent and useful status.

From previous posts (over the last 8 months, at least) it would appear the "Academy" has been over-run by a plethora of non-aviation associated managers (and -esses??); and off the pavement assistants.

Surely the next joint project of ASA management and Civilair is to "round-table" (a favoured LA term, I believe) and sort the training mess out for the next 5 years.... and ASAP (LA double talk for "in the forseeable future; or by 2011 if possible!")

GR

[BN APP 125.6]

Well Concerned won't decide whether this CA is accepted.

The members of Civil Air will.

So his opinion, whilst entertaining, if not informed, is ultimately moot.

If they think it is a good deal, they will vote in favour - if they think they will get a better deal through arbitration, over whatever time period that takes, they will vote against.

The fact it has taken this long to get to this point is not the fault of the Civil Air negotiators - it was the tactic of the other side to delay & obfuscate as much as possible. Such is the legacy of the legislation known as WorkChoices (thank you John Howard, Kevin Andrews, Joe Hockey and Well Concerned?) Sounds like a lot money was spent doing this as well. Nice job.

Well Concerned can sit back lovingly clutching his AWA, hoping it will be renewed in some manner when the next management team arrive in Canberra. He really doesn't need to worry about the Certified Agreement.
............
Curiosity has got the better of me Well'y - what would you have done if you were a controller in the union? Conducted a one-man strike for higher pay? How would you have got a better outcome for ......you?

[WELLCONCERNED]

Having been at the receiving end of CivilAir 'representation' - and having had my concerns 'taken into account' over many EBA and CA negotiations, I have seen and experienced the 'agenda' enough times to know that CivilAir does not represent the vast majority of controllers - it represents the few militant reps who think they know what controllers want - but really aren't attuned to the day-to-day concerns of the 'rank and file'.

I was a card carrying member of CivilAir for years - but gave it away after the last CA negotiation when my particular needs - and those of the controllers in my aisle - were ignored.

You have absolutely no idea who I am and how close to most of you I actually sit and work - so don't tell me I don't know what controllers think.

Most will simply go along with the deal because it's the only thing on the table - regardless of whether or not they think it's a good deal.

[BN APP 125.6]

Nonetheless, your opinion will (literally) not count.

[Fly_by_wire]

I'm with WELLCONCERNED on this. Most ATC's will end up with a less than CPI increase.

complete and utter BS. Post your figures. Obviously you havn't done your damp training cause you and wellconcerned must be high on something :ugh:

[C-change]

Most seem happy with the CA but how does any of this actually solve your staff problems ?

Or is AsA counting on heaps of RAAF ATC's jumping ship at the end of Sep ?

[undervaluedATC]

Can I suggest that now that the union forums are reopened we move the discussion of the pros and cons of the EBA to our "private" forum (with the caveat that we remember that printed out pages of the supposed member's only forum have been submitted to the IRC as "evidence") - let's not give Wellconcerned any more time.

Let's get back to talking about how the staffing numbers are going, and how many trainees (or how few) we are seeing make it to the field.

[Howabout]

Ouch! Spank me again!

[dsham]

What needs to be done is a serious review of recruiting and training. My course 13 started 6 rated and i'm pretty sure that has been the norm for quite some time. The RAAF had the same problem with pilot training before they created flight screening. We need to make sure that the 12 bums on each course are there because they have the aptitude to be ATC's not because they were the only 12 they could find.

[mrtwister]

I'm awaiting my 'Personality Interview' which is in May. If I am successful in this and the following couple of stages I will be starting training in September. I must be honest and say that if my wife and I didn't have 3 children, we would not be able to survive the pay cut from my current position. I have found the process so far to be not too difficult but I am still skeptical of the training wage. I'm sure I am not the only one who has had second thoughts about changing careers while taking such a financial hit. :\

[jrbridge]

My problem exactly. I'm starting at the College on June 16th. So moving from Adelaide whilst my partner stays in Adelaide and keeping our mortgage and renting a place in Melbourne all on $35400 PA makes things very tight. It really separates the people who are really interested from those who just might be interested. If they brought the training wage up maybe $10000 it would make things much easier though, but still keep the training wage reasonably low compared with other equivalent professions. Just my 2 cents worth.

[blind freddy]

I was a card carrying member of CivilAir for years - but gave it away after the last CA negotiation when my particular needs - and those of the controllers in my aisle - were ignored.

MY particular needs. Exactly. Look after yourself and who cares about the rest of the people you work with. That is why you left Civil Air, not after the CA, but after you signed up as an ALM. By the way, wouldn't Civil Air have a record of resignations?

Most decent people (and don't think for a moment I am including you in that group) understand the common good, and looking after everyone.

The outcome from the Association will get a resounding "Yes" vote, and controllers will continue to get payrises over the next three years, with no loss of conditions (Well done Civil Air)

You and the rest of the ALMs will get nothing this year. Airservices have already stated that things are tight and the "market movement" on which you are paid your increases has already been set at "zero". Keep that up, and most Controllers will be at least on par with your salary at the end of this agreement.

Now the funny part (for me anyway). When all the the AWAs expire during 2012, there will need to be a new agreement for the ALMs. Guess which agreement you will revert to? Thats right, the Civil Air negotiated Collective ALM agreement! So as much as you bag them out, they will be responsible for your conditons eventually. I hope not too much work goes into it.......

You have absolutely no idea who I am and how close to most of you I actually sit and work - so don't tell me I don't know what controllers think.

Well well well Wellconcerned. How was your holiday? (Remember, we know you are an ALM on an AWA in Melbourne!) Do we know exactly, No. Does it matter, No.
You are the perfect representative of all the opportunistic whores that signed the AWA. That is enough for me.

[WELLCONCERNED]

Airservices' management might not be so Blind, Freddy:

From today's Melbourne Age:

Digging up dirt: Facebook spies for hire

Large companies and government departments are employing a new Sydney-based company to dig up dirt on staff by spying on Facebook, MySpace, Twitter, PPRuNe and YouTube posts.

SR7 specialises in "online risk and reputation management" and claims to be the only company in Australia that actively monitors social networking sites on behalf of companies.

It was formed about eight months ago in response to the growing trend for people to take conversations they would have traditionally had with mates at the pub on to their social network profiles.

Few people realise these seemingly private sites are still public spaces. If controversial posts leak to the media, it can lead to brands suffering immense damage to their reputations.

SR7 director James Griffin said business was booming following recent public relations disasters sparked by the stupid social network behaviour of a few rogue employees. The firm's clients included "a number of blue-chip companies in a variety of industries" and "government departments and agencies".

[blind freddy]

Thats it?

No retort, no witty repartee?

That holiday has relaxed you.

BTW, I am sure we are all aware of the way PPRuNe posts end up in court.

AsA dont need SR7, they have you.

[BN APP 125.6]

WellConcerned has 'embellished' his "quote". Some might call it lying, but I am sure he would have another (enhanced) name for it, being the type who is no doubt employed to be 'clever' with words.

Here is the original article (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2009/04/17/1239475038317.html) he 'quotes':


Large companies and government departments are employing a new Sydney-based company to dig up dirt on staff by spying on Facebook, MySpace, Twitter and YouTube posts.
SR7 specialises in "online ....Perhaps quoting in context, or accurately, doesn't suit his 'particular needs' ?

[Howabout]

Just a thought, but is 'Thicket' the collective noun for a group of WCs?

What a howler; the whole of Australia read that article.

Are you sure this guy is a "boss?" Somehow, it just doesn't gel. I am leaning towards the belief that one of the psychiatric hospitals gives rubber-room inmates access to the net.

[dsham]

The big question is why did he become an ALM? Do be a link between the controllers at the console and higher management? To fight to ensure that they received the best conditions and support from management? Or did he see $$$$$$ and the opportunity to not put his balls on the line everyday that he controls......just my 2 cents

[Hempy]

Despite his failings, perhaps he knows his limitations. Can't get LOEQ checking eBay all day.

[sunnySA]

Not being able to check eBay would result in LOEQ.

[turnleftnow]

To those whinging about the training wage. Suck it up, do u think it is something new? Everyone else went through it too. The long term benefits outweigh the short term pain.

My 2 cents.

[jrbridge]

That's funny, I didn't see whinging there. Just an opinion to improve the shortage situation. This is afterall the title of this thread.

[mrtwister]

Not whinging. Just saying that it is probably a factor in the low completion rates of training. I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that would make great controllers but they might not be willing to give up their 80K plus salaries to do the training.

[TrafficTraffic]

but they might not be willing to give up their 80K plus salaries to do the training.

Which occupations are these ......?


TT

[tobzalp]

In about 5 years, ALMs.

[mrtwister]

Well I'm just a classroom high school teacher and I get just a little under that. Surely teachers aren't in the 'highly paid' category. I would assume there are public servants, police officers or defence personnel getting these sorts of salaries as well.
I would have thought that the skills and strengths required to successfully control air traffic would have allowed an individual to experience success in another profession beforehand.
I'm just saying that the best people who have the requirements for the job (ATC) are probably already using these skills to earn good money in their current profession. So that would limit the quality of people who apply for training.

[TrafficTraffic]

Such hostility plazbot....... sorry tobzalp

TT

[peuce]

Mr Twister has a very good point ....

Why would someone, give up $80k, and around 10 weeks holidays per year, to :


Earn $35k ... with a hope of reaching $120k in many years time
Go through the stress of 12 months training
Probably leave his family behind
Be posted to God know's where
Work shift work
Have a fair chance of getting health problems
Work under a bunch of alleged nincompoops
Be shattered by bad morale
Fight for annual leave
Be called in on most days off


You'd really want to have the need to push tin to take that on.
Most people would rather work to live ... not live to work !

[cbradio]

I'm just saying that the best people who have the requirements for the job (ATC) are probably already using these skills to earn good money in their current profession

I'm probably generalising and may be way off the mark, but from what I've seen, the older "change of career, saw an ad in the paper" types haven't been all that successful - the people who wanted to be an ATC in the first place are the ones they should be trying to get - and they have to make it attractive enough to interest some of the brighter sparks.

[Funk]

I was one of older out of the paper guys on AB3 95-96, in general for that course the older students faired much better than the younger guys. Of the 8 guys that made it to field training in BN; 3 of the 4 of us that rated were over 28 years old.

I'm with peuce, been through the giving up of lucrative job to go to ATC it took nearly 5 years to make up the loss. I went from 70K+ in 1995 to 22K training wage and my 1st year Journeyman salary was only 42K after 18 months training.

Its been fun but its also cost me 2 marriages and a new house :}

[Hempy]

Agree wholeheartedly. Trainees have pulled out of courses because they couldn't sustain an existence on a pittance.

p.s

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k144/h3mpy/img002.jpg

onya Funk, now back to your cabin

[Saliantpoint]

Reference the Learning Academy:

A potential crisis is most definitely looming.

If you are a locally based controller I would recommend that you go and visit and see why your roster cant be improved by some new talent:

Points to Note regardless:

Poor morale amongst staff and some students.
Experienced instructors being paid less than new appointees with less experience
Non field current Instructors being paid less than some "experienced" students!
Too much emphacis on the Process i.e. goal appears to be RTO Compliance and Cost Effective training (save money ) rather than the Task (to create understanding and eventually put licensed bums on seats. E.g. the Academy uses one instructor on two students doing two different tasks simultaneously: DTI and Radar and Approach and Departures and SMC and Tower, rather than one on one as per almost all International ANSP's. Consequently there is no freezing of exercises and very little actual teaching done. So many errors and poor technique go unnoticed and some bad habits are learned and reinforced uncorrected as the Instructor focuses on the weaker student! Exams can be and are sometimes jagged ! In some cases, students worthy of failing - pass and the buck is moved on to the OJTI - hence the high field chop rates.

Sadly the list of inefficiencies goes on and on.:sad::sad::sad:

SP

PS: Instructors are no longer Instructors - Now called Delivery Specialists!

[tobzalp]

To be blunt, the **** we are geting in the field shows that the college ( what the fark it is now) is farming out every bum they can. The CSS types are passing many who would normally pass. The hand overs I am getting from trainees and newly rated players take me 20 minues to get over.

[BN APP 125.6]

Sums it Up (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1236&Itemid=77)

[dsham]

tobzalp - i am one of the "****" out of the college - I believe that a rating is a rating, we would not be rated if we DIDNT deserve it.... I don't know about the checkie on your group but mine has a no bull**** approach, you make the grade or you are out...... you were new once too you tool...

that is what is killing this place, sure people out of the college aren't getting the best training, but they are all putting in 100%, we need to encourage them and provide the best support possible.....

[Baileys]

Airservices obviously is still a top place to work!!!

[Hempy]

dsham,

I think the complaint isn't about the trainees who do rate; despite the (poor) quality of trainees the 'academy' is turning out into the field checkies wont rate you if you cant do the job. Its the number of trainees that aren't getting rated that is the concern. In the past, these people were weeded out in selection/on course, with a pretty good pass rate OJT. Now it seems it's up to the checkies to weed them out (after an extra 6 months or so of training :ugh:).

[Blockla]

WC
CivilAir does not represent the vast majority of controllers - it represents the few militant reps who think they know what controllers want - but really aren't attuned to the day-to-day concerns of the 'rank and file'. What a load of bollox having spent some 6 years on the executive I can categorically refute that.

{RANT ON} In my experience the people that get the sh!ts with Civil Air, had a sook about a particular topic and then when either the cause wasn't championed or was rejected by the majority or simply the fight was lost, blamed the union for not winning, like it was the unions fault that they lost, or had no mechanism for change or otherwise were not prepared to spend significant money on an individual cause with little or no benefit to the membership.

There were many people who have left and rejoined etc. for various reasons, but blaming the union for not achieving the goals of everyone is often the easy out; almost always ultimately ASA is responsible for your gripe, not the union; but they are an easier target.

Many things in the CA/EBA etc are not at the unions request, but the employers.

As for an individual achieving a better outcome than the collective, well I'd like to see that; why are non members not going down stairs requesting an individual AWA and not scabbing off the paying members (agreement); because they know what they would get...
{Rant off}

RE: Training, it sounds horrible and it is.

I have many mature friends that would make excellent controllers but have no capacity to surrender their current salaries for an ATC training wage or are prepared to suffer the concept of being sent somewhere else.

Being now August 265 (or something like that), it isn't surprising that things aren't fixed; you need to suffer more pain; ie cut off the leg to keep the patient alive. But the leg will grow back... It is going to hurt.

Some rosters need to be in the short term sacrificed and/or traffic restricted (maybe the GFC downturn naturally helps) to free up human resources to get a)quality trainees, b)more trainees through. Wasting money on new rostering tools to save just a wee bit is just doing something, but nothing positive or productive; but they can claim they are trying...

[Baileys]

Blocka or someone else

Maybe you can answer what UndervaluedATC could only manage a poor excuse for.

If staff shortage is still the real problem why then has the Civil website airspace closure/staff shortage section been 1) removed from the front page of the website and 2) not updated for a month?

Is it just coincidence that the updates stopped and the front page changed around the time that Civilair and Airservices reached a deal on the Certified Agreement or was part of the deal to stop publicly exposing the problem.

If staff shortages are the real problem still, surely there is no harm in consistently exposing the flawed system - especially when the overwhelming opinion is that it will not get better quickly. Or was it just a tool to help in Certified Agreement negotiations only?

[everyonefedup]

The firefighters have voted their agreement up - 82% of the 81% who voted said yes... not that suprising since they got just about everything they wanted out of ASA.

[Here to Help]

Baileys,

You have a valid perspective but I don't think it's anything more than a reorganisation of the website. There are volunteers acting in temporary roles who, for many reasons, have not had the time at the moment to update and maintain the content on the page. It's nothing sinister, just give it time and you will hopefully see the important issues on there again. If you are a Civil Air member, why not ask your delegate or post on the member's forum to see what's happening?

The Certified Agreement process (including the PIA vote) over the last few months has taken up a huge amount of time for delegates and volunteers due to the need to communicate with Civil Air members and keep them updated on progress.

Everybody knows that the staff shortage is causing massive problems within ASA, but Civil Air only has limited resources to deal with this, ASA management tactics, the daily running of the Association and the Certified Agreement. The timing of all this may not look good (as I said, your sentiments are valid), but if/when the CA is finalised you should see resources currently being intensively expended on the industrial front being put back into the professional issues that Civil Air as the ATC Association has a major role in addressing.

Once the CA is signed, no-one truly believes that the staffing crisis will go away.

[Baileys]

Like you say, regardless of the reason, the timing is bad and it looks really bad. Don't think I'm the only one who has noticed. I'm just the only one who has mentioned it here. It would be nice to see it all back up and running and highlighting the real problems.

[BN APP 125.6]

Here to Help is on the money, from what I know.

Civil Air will hopefully now have more time and resources to devote to getting those who can make a difference and get answers (politicians, airlines, journalists(?)) from those promising 'staffing will be fixed by xxx' and also claiming that the staff shortages were some kind of industrial campaign.

The wool can be pulled over the eyes for only so long - surely?

[dabelstein]

Baileys,

As Here to Help pointed out, the Civil Air Website is run by a collection of volunteers. The amount of traffic through the site, and especially the forums, over the last 6 months has been unprecedented. Those people are now taking a well earned breather.

Additionally, Civil Air's VP - Communication, the person ultimately responsible for the success of the website, is stepping down at the end of this month after acting in the position for the previous 4 years. I know the new VP - Communication has some ideas about leveraging the current popularity of the website to raise the level of engagement of Civil Air Members, the profession generally and other interested parties (including yourself) to a new level. Please bookmark the Civil Air Website and check back from time to time (this applies to all with an interest in ATC - http://www.civilair.asn.au (http://www.civilair.asn.au/)).

Rest assured, the issue of ATC shortages is ongoing. The website is only one tool we have to bring attention to this. Ultimately, we have to use all the tools at our disposal to firstly identify an effective way of addressing the shortage and then, perhaps the harder task, to convince our employers to accept that Civil Air, as a professional body with a vast amount of experience, is capable of making a valuable and relevant contribution.

I might also remind people generally that those acting on behalf of Civil Air to improve ATC in Australia are, unlike ASA management, doing so in there own time with no financial reward. It is hard to believe this employer, ASA, is not champing at the bit to embrace this level of commitment from its employees. Unfortunately, in my limited experience, ASA remains largely dismissive of Civil Air's efforts. This despite the fact that by the simplest measure, the ability to provide an uninterrupted ATC service to the Australian public, the current management has failed like no other ATC provider in Australian aviation history. A simple, stark fact that no amount of spin can avoid.

However, I am an optimist at heart and I believe there are a few in positions of influence, or on the fringes, that may give us some hope into the future. We shall see.

[Baileys]

Thanks for the explanations. I'm sure others appreciate it too.

A slightly modified quote...

"People who were driving a school bus blindfolded (and crashed it) should never be given a new bus. The Airservices Management establishment lost it's legitimacy with the failure of the system. It is irresponsible and foolish to put our trust in the ability of such experts to get us out of this mess. Instead, find the smart people whose hands are clean"

and

"Do not let someone making an “incentive” bonus manage a nuclear plant – or your financial risks. Odds are he would cut every corner on safety to show “profits” while claiming to be “conservative”. Bonuses do not accommodate the hidden risks of blow-ups. It is the asymmetry of the bonus system that got us here. No incentives without disincentives: capitalism is about rewards and punishments, not just rewards"

~ Nassim Taleb

[go-rownd]

Emirates Aviation College have closed their ATM Training Section as of 5 days ago. Whilst an ersatz arrangement for the training of ME controllers and managers, its loss (??) will see the local operatives of the region necessarily scouring the world for "already rated controllers" to fill gaps.

Of course, the WFC will have an effect on their needs in the short-term. But when the bubble is sealed and re-inflates, needs will be met by dhirams/dollars/pounds/renmimbi/yuan to acquire "skill".

Hang in there: desert life ain't so bad, I'm told!!

However, an opportunity now arrives for a well equipped training organisation to home in on said "OPPORTUNITY"!!

A qualified organisation would have their lesson plans in order, their instructors at the ready, their simulators at 100% capacity, and their salesfolk on the move to less well organised regions for "recruiting of suitably qualified potential ATCs" for the next 5 years!!

Then there's the ASA Learning Academy!!!

GR

[Tiberius]

Perhaps this is part of the master plan for attracting and training new staff (even if they may be your grandmothers)

Flight Control lands Melbourne gaming studio a global hit - Articles (http://www.theage.com.au/news/digital-life/mobiles--handhelds/articles/melbournemade-iphone-game-a-global-hit/2009/04/22/1240079710738.html)

[Saliantpoint]

The very proactive team at Airways International NZ will already have a large part of that market covered no doubt

Overseas training was something that ASA "used to do" - but alas no longer it would seem.

Just as well, as one of the recent local conversion courses nearly had to be run from the gents toilets due to lack of a classroom! Fortunately the canteen turned out to be a better option!:ok:

SP

[divingduck]

To be blunt, the **** we are geting in the field shows that the college ( what the fark it is now) is farming out every bum they can. The CSS types are passing many who would normally pass. The hand overs I am getting from trainees and newly rated players take me 20 minues to get over.

Gee I hope you were not one of those TSIT trainees then...you should have heard what the rated controllers said about them when they first arrived.
Whoever said that it is not their fault is absolutely 100% correct. If they are checked out and working then the "blame" for their lack of knowledge/skills/whatever rests squarely with the controller that checked them out on the position.
As for the CSS thing passing many who would normally pass? NFI what that is about.

Go-rownd...that has been tried many a time in different parts of the world, with varying degrees of disaster.
Australia sent students to Bournemouth/Bath, ME countries have sent them to Bournemouth, Jordan, Qatar, Singapore and New Zealand. Almost without exception, the "bums on seats" mindset is still in evidence...guys that are plainly not suited are sent back with glowing reports, only for us poor bunnies in the field to have to deal with them.

Blockla...why are you on PPrune when you should be drinking?:ok:

[homeoftheblizzard]

The Learning Academy was recently advertising for "Learning Assistants". I think they are referring to the artists formerly known as ATC Instructors. That should help things along.

[TrafficTraffic]

DD who do you get to type for you? I was told you had no opposable thumbs...luv you...

TT

[peuce]

Shouldn't they be "Training Assistants" ?

Or does ASA now provide each Trainee with someone to turn the pages on their manual for them?

[malroy]

Learning assistants is correct... they are there to help the trainee learn. This is of course the trainees responsibility. If there were training assistants then the instructor might be accountable for the training delivered, and we can't have that!! much better for the acquisition of the required knowledge to be entirly the trainee's responsibility. :rolleyes:

[divingduck]

Hey TT,
I have ten thumbs...all opposing.

Anyway the instructors (a rose by any other name) should be "facilitators" surely??:E

I'm off to bed...just finished the last night shift and now have 3.5 days off...no call ins naturally...cause I didn't put down for them this weekend:ok:

[Adamastor]

Not so fast with those rocks there, dd.

Australia only sent two courses of twelve to Bath. Of those, I understand 11/12 and 10/12 checked out upon return. Seems to be somewhat higher than the locally trained pass rate? Speaking for Sydney, we got six of the twenty-four and all of them checked out and have proved themselves to be competent or better. Perhaps you are suggesting that this happy result was just a function of our exceptional OJTI? :p

[divingduck]

A fairly skilled rock thrower I am...

I vividly remember the master race when they arrived back in Oz after their "AsA World Tour" as their course t-shirt went.

Although I thought that there were 50 of them, and almost all crashed and burned on first contact...then they were sent for re-education and then about 25 or so passed?
If incorrect I stand humbly apologetic...although I still remember the tw@t that came to visit us for a short time on Byron group:ugh: It seemed all he learned in Bath was that he already knew more than all the rest of us actually doing the job.
I left shortly thereafter to ply my inadequate skills offshore, that would have been around late 1997.

[TrafficTraffic]

Me Thinx Mr Stanley does speaketh the truth....

Complete retraining done in the field by (yes exceptional) OJTIs I think was the key to success for the Bath Babes....

TT

asif - 10 opposable thumbs that would make you the missing link..

[BN APP 125.6]

Bath TMA1 : all SY trainees checked out, and one in CS checked out.

After a re-streaming course, another 6 of the remaining 7 checked out.

There were only two courses to Bath. TMA2 had similar outcome.

So 'methinx' somebody above is speaking out of their hat.

[lestump]

Quoting Funk: Its been fun but its also cost me 2 marriages and a new house


2 marriages???? Are you a slow learner?:)

[homeoftheblizzard]

TSIT was a mess, but became CATS which was an OUTSTANDING success.

and for a short time RAAF E. SALE was a success for tower training, so of course it was wound up.

[TrafficTraffic]

BNAPP,

I don't know how many finally checked out - the point is they needed

1) A great deal of retraining

2) A great deal more retraining

This says more about the course they were (weren't?) given than about the people themselves.

Nobody is questioning the people and their abiltity the point is the instruction or lack there of that they were given in the first place is the problem. The course they received in Bath was not fit for purpose and that is a fact.

.....Adjusts hat to left a bit more....

TT

oh and lol at Lestump

[BN APP 125.6]

Well, lets just say you seem to want to be seen to know more about it than me, so go right ahead.

[Howabout]

Children, children, control yourselves; this is all very interesting - past attempts to outsource etc by the suits. 'Exalted one, I have a clever idea;' 'No, no, I have a more clever idea, giver of corporate credit cards, let me brown nose.' Happens in every endeavour, not just aviation.

The classic that I remember was an ad that appeared in the national daily a number of years ago. Memory is fading, but the essence was that Airservices had a clever idea (to cut costs) and put out an EOI for a 'private provider of ATC training.' Allegedly, and according to this cunning plan of which Black Adder would be proud, students would pay their own way, thus giving the private provider income. Then, according to the need at the time, Airservices would employ the graduates, but not necessarily all of the graduates; only the ones they wanted at the time.

So, hey presto! problem solvered - no need for an expensive, pesky 'Learning Academy' and no need to invest money in training. The students would pay for themselves to gain the privelege of then being considered for employment.

Naturally, this scheme never saw light of day after the ad was published. However, the idiot that thought it up is probably still employed and earning a shed-load more than the people who actually do the job.

Who are these mugs that come up with these ideas and what do they get paid?

It costs the rest of us.

[dsham]

I would have to say that the "delivery specialists" are doing the best they can with what they have. Never once during my course did we have any reason to doubt their commitment, professionalism and devotion to our training. What needs to be reviewed however is the training package itself. I was pretty confident as an ATC after leaving the college (i was woefully mistaken!) it wasn't until the 3 or 4th sim run that the penny dropped...... The level of ATC capacity the learning academy gets you to once you are out the door is no-where near adequate. Of those of us that rated out of my course, the step up required was phenomenal.

[Hempy]

dsham, the discrepancy between the academy and the 'field' has always been there unfortunately. It's the difference between generic ATC and airspace specific ATC. Trainees come from the academy under the impression they are 90% there when in reality their training is only about 50% complete - it's just that the second 50% is done in 2 or 3 months not 6. I agree the package needs reviewing though...apparently so do CASA....

[BN APP 125.6]

Ah - that must be why the leaders leading want those you beaut 'generic ratings' for those 'generic sectors'? I wonder how all that is going?

[just the facts]

Dont worry, westo is on the way to save the day, cant wait for Bhagwans first batch to arrive in Bn.

[divingduck]

Can't help myself...

Generic ratings work well here in Ireland. (see my previous posts on this subject about 20 pages back to save the indignant squeals)

The training school in Ireland (still called that here) preps you to about 130% of busiest traffic expected...ergo when you sit in, it's actually easier than the sim. Except for the pilots not listening etc in the real world.
Most of those chopped departed in the sim, not the real world.

[TrafficTraffic]

DD there is no need for that sort of can do attitude here!

There is no way that would work here in Aus....because well we don't do it now so there.....

Can I share the shelter with you?

TT

[Howabout]

I won't disagree with the experts, but is the exercise one of comparing apples to apples?

As I understand it, the Irish do an outstanding job in taking care of over-flyers, but do not have the same scenario as here. It seems to me, and no disrespect DD, that generic ratings would work over the North Atlantic, but does the same philosophy apply to terminal control. Could you do Dublin Approach one day and Belfast the next?

Plus, this is a big country. One may be able to memorise all the reporting points etc in a small country, but how does that translate to here? How do our controllers get totally confident with, say STARS, in one part of the country and then be expected to know the goods miles away.

I am from the unwashed, so that may be a dumb-ass question. But I just cannot see how a controller can have a generic qulification for WA that allows him/her to safely separate in FNQ.

Maybe I've got the concept wrong.

[tobzalp]

I don't see any problem with Diving Duck posting his experiences on this thread what so ever. If anything it exposes the pureness of the topic as he is an ex OZ ATC who if I recall correctly has worked OZ, ME, Canada and now Ireland (not in that order). OZ ATC can't keep those who already have a job here let alone attract appropriate new blood.

I myself won a gig in Canada but the awesomeness that is Australia (real life) saw me knock it back and just go to work to get my pay packet and no more. There are many many like me. Not only is there an issue with those leaving but many who 'back in the day' would be stepping up and progressing the profession/business just don't care anymore. Shame really. Disengaged? Man, I am the Enterprise at warp factor minus 10000.

[BN APP 125.6]

[Edited: Can't be bothered wasting my time on idiots]

[max1]

TrafficTraffic,
Re- Generic Arrivals Ratings
Have you now read the paper on what is proposed ?
I value your input and am hoping you can constructively input on the 'vision' of generic arrivals ratings in the BN FIR.

Specifically STARs, Restricted Areas, Frequency transfers, and standard level assignments into SY, WLM,Gold Coast ,BN,MCY, TL,CS,DN,etc.
Please stick to what is achievable now, or in the immediate future(seeing we have already transitioned to SDE airspace). Please don't use motherhood statements about future technology, future standardisations, or FUA (flexible usage of airspace) none of which are actually yet in existence.

It seems disingeuous to move people around and then work out there are no tools, no plans and not enough people to do the new job. Fail to plan, plan to fail.

[WELLCONCERNED]

.........?

[numbskull]

I know this might be a bit off thread as far as ATC goes however I am applying for a position with Airservices Australia in their facilities management area as a maintenance planner.

Can anyone give me any feedback on that area of ASA?

[WELLCONCERNED]

Hey Nummy,

Forget maintenance - no future. As to 'Maintenance Planning' and 'Airservices Australia' in the same sentence - oxymoron if ever there was one, amigo!!

Try becoming an ATC...

....no, no, better still.....try becoming an ATC instructor!

No, no, no......wait....better still.....apply for a job as an ATC Line Manager!!!!

Much better paid, not too much work, plenty of time to check stocks, fish through E-Bay, write personal e-mails, compose sciolistic messages for pprune....

Tootle Pip!

[Howabout]

That's one schizophrenic, sick puppy.

[Hempy]

Walt has more contradictions than a schizophrenics convention tbh.

[go-rownd]

How have any of the last 62 pages of vitriole solved, or really attempted to solve, the "ASA Staff Shortage"

Unlike WC, I am "concerned of eventualities".

GR

[numbskull]

Thanks WC,

I'm starting to form an impression of the people that work there??!!!

[WELLCONCERNED]

Hey GR,

I'm sure it's only 61 pages of vitriole - there must be at least one full page of constructive input!!

...but don't work about the staff shortage problem - the SDE program will fix everything - one size fits all ratings and endorsements, consoles configurable to do any sector in Australia at the drop of a hat. Feeling sick - well, no problem, simply stay at home, log-on to the secure ATC VPN, and select a nice easy sector to work on for a few hours - then go to bed with a cup of tea and a Bex powder.

As to accusations of schizophrenia - be careful. I seem to recall someone being banned a couple of years ago from this site for calling RHS a schizophrenic - if the moderators are at all consistent they should give you a gentle warning, Mr Howabout.

Nummy - it's not all bad news - only the ATCs are 'disturbed' - I'm sure the engineering types are really nice people, and that the engineering departments are warm and welcoming.

Tootle Pip.

[everyonefedup]

The maintainence guys are all pretty dedicated - but like most areas of Airservices they get let down by management quite a bit. The TAS area is in a bit of a mess - lots of projects running behind, overbudget, out of control. A few guys have left to save their careers (no one wants to be connected with a few of the projects due to a bad rep).

So... I suppose to be as constructive as I can.... dedicated professionals are always welcome at ASA.... but keep in mind that the place is suffering a bit from a crap CEO, crap Board, crap Executives and a particularly crap HR group "People and Change". So if you love your work enough to put up with being treated like rubish... this is the place for you.

[numbskull]

Thanks for the feedback guys. It pretty much sounds like most places I've worked at- underfunded, undermanned and a focus on costs to the detriment of everything else.

maintenance is such an easy target for short term gains and no one likes to pay for it

[WELLCONCERNED]

..........

[Funk]

Lemme guess the rank & file voted for a short term gain of a payrise without any guarantee of improved rostering or genuine career developement.

So in 6 months time are we gonna hear about short staffing, poor rosters, airspace closures due to absenteeism (ultimately associated with poor job satisfaction...you know when you're sitting in an aisle with 5 sectors open and you've got 1 plane each or you've had to come in on a week end 8 hour day shift to plug in for 2 hours talking to nobody)?

Hope I am wrong.

[WELLCONCERNED]

Ever one to look at the glass half empty scenario....

...if the CivilAir vote count is correct, then it appears that 79% of eligible voters - assume this means CivilAir members - voted in favour of the agreement - but 21% either voted against or abstained.

Now that the hype and drama of the negotiation is over, might it not be prudent for CivilAir to canvas the 21% of members who said no [or abstained] to find out why - and what it was they wanted, but which wasn't delivered in the CA.

Not trying to stir trouble here - just pointing out that 1 in 5 of your members weren't happy (yes, I know, that means 4 in 5 were - but it would have been nice if your satisfaction rating was just a little higher).

[mikk_13]

I didn't vote since I am leaving the company. I hope this is not the case for everyone else who didn't.

[everyonefedup]

I think if you read through the past 63 pages - it is clear that a lot of the problems were not CA related ones. The staff shortage is a result of poor management.... just because this CA was voted in doesn't mean that suddenly we have renewed faith in the ASA board or exec to start doing their job properly. What it does do is get a side issue out of the way... now TFN has nothing to blame if he can't get his stuff together.

My two cents - People and Change is clearly a failed group. CF is a terrible people leader and the people she has appointed into her group are poor relationship managers and (using the "academy" as an example) have no idea how to develop and sustain a workforce of ATCs. Instead of developing pretty presentations with no detail and relabelling things to bring us into line with some bizarre notion of private sector best practice they should have focused on doing their job properly. As far as I am concerned CF and her managers should be the first to go if the organisation is serious about rebuilding relationships with employees.

The very fact that P&C couldn't close out a single agreement on time and Greg was forced to go in and negotiate it himself should have that group sacked. It is embarrasing - and a poor reflection on TFN.

After correcting some shocking appointments in P&C they can go back and have a look at making the recruitment and training process work for ATCs. It doesn't matter what cute catch phrase you have on your advertisement if most of your guys are failing in the field... and yes - we all know that you can rock up to senate estimates and claim a 80% pass rate in the college but that pretty much just means that the college is passing people that they shouldn't if they aren't cutting it in the field... I mean... you can make that pass rate 100% if you really want to by lowering the standard even further but at the end of the day if they aren't rated in the field you haven't actually done a good job.

The ATC staff shortage is a result of crappy workforce planning by P&C (which CF was responsible for when she was the people strategy manager) crappy reforms (yes... CF had her hand in that too Miss former Change Office Manager) and crappy reform of the college (under the CF GM). So boot her off the island already!

[blind freddy]

You assumed wrong WC.

The vote was open to all people that will be covered by the Agreement, not just the Civil Air members.

How's your AWA going btw WC? Are you feeling your job security?
I particularly love that part where your employment can be terminated without any reason, or recourse, with 12 weeks notice.
I hear rumours that 1 in 3 are for the chop.

[WELLCONCERNED]

Actually, quite well, BF - thanks for asking.

Because of some serious butt-licking in one of my previous positions in Canberra, I managed to get a really good base salary - WELL above the general population - and my performance bonus of 30+% keeps me well ahead of the pack. In fact, as far as I can see, I should get at least a 25% bonus, as my performance objectives - soft as they were - have been met and exceeded. I'm happy to take the 5% cut requested of all managers as part of our 'show the flag, help the customers' program - won't do a lot of damage to my bottom line.

Having now seen the full CA, and noted the salaries those in my aisle are getting, I'd say I was 'quids in' salary wise - at least 20% ahead of the highest paid controller in the aisle - even when overtime is taken into account. My salary sacrifice arrangements are fantastic - and my novated car deal is second to none. I probably pay less tax than the trainee in the next aisle.

So, once again, thanks for asking - I'm doing just great!!

Come and see me if you are thinking about switching.

Tootle Pip.

[everyonefedup]

25% bonus out of 30%? That is so funny - you must be seriously deluded if you think that they won't moderate them down this year. Particularly since there seems to be general agreement that the ALM structure isn't working out that well... you might have met your "soft" targets but the company ain't that interested in your arse licking ability when they are trying to show the minister that they are clawing ounces of productivity out of a squeezed workforce. But if you need to convince yourself that you're better off to preserve some vague perception of intelligence... more power to you mate.

Tell me this - how are you.. in all of your superior glory - actually contributing to make ASA a better place to work with sustainable staffing solutions? What fabulous outcome did you achieve to justify any bonus? Perhaps if you are saying that the bonus structure is based on "soft" targets that weren't that hard to achieve you are actually saying that the structure has failed because there aren't really any results for you to achieve?

[tobzalp]

Why you people even bother engaging this dude in any conversation is beyond me:ugh:

[WELLCONCERNED]

Hey Pete - oops - sorry - Tobby,

Why so aggressive. All I'm doing is fleshing [or maybe flushing] out the issues, and generating debate.

Look at how much information wouldn't have been shared with Joe Public if I hadn't pushed your buttons.

And remember - this is a RUMOUR network - not a HARD FACT network.

Thanks for the compliment, OS. Guess our idea of humour wasn't shared by all - my last post suddenly disappeared. Oh well, no accounting for taste.

[peuce]

Methinks there's a fair bit of bridge building to be done within the ATC ranks ... before you can start sorting out the management...

[undervaluedATC]

by the by,
on the union website we are starting to compile a list of times/days when staffing was less than rostered but no NOTAM was issued....

[tobzalp]

3 more leaving Tops group in Brisbane. Two more maybes. This is in addition to the 4 that have already gone. That is 9 just this year from one group alone and all packed up to different employers. Seems that the people waiting for the EBA outcome before looking elsewhere looked elsewhere.:zzz:

[Showa Cho]

But hang on, didn't the CEO say that staff shortages were caused by a few renegade controllers who were pushing for the EBA to be signed? So now the EBA has been endorsed by the majority of members, what will his excuse for staff shortages be now?

The airlines should be asking why we are still having TIBA.

There's only so long you can go telling porkie-pies until you are found out.

So, Greg, man enough to admit you lied are you?

I doubt it. Bring in the next scapegoat!

Domo-arigato.

Showa Cho.

[go-rownd]

Em i dai pinis masta??

[Blockla]

Seems ASA isn't just short of staff at home:

Kona Airport Incident Raises Safety Questions - Honolulu News Story - KITV Honolulu (http://www.kitv.com/news/19596379/detail.html)

PS Dick Smith, maybe this is the key to how ASA runs these towers cheaper than the FAA...?

[Slugfest]

There has been a project team formed for the eurocat replacement with the aim of a supposed replacment of the current platform in 2013ish.

Given the board papers doing the rounds that stated a goal of a single centre in Melbourne, would that not reduce the need for operational staff overall and those that would move from Brisbane to Melbourne would be able to provide the hold grail of "full staffing"?

Maybe TFN is in no great hurry to employ more staff?????

seeing that this is the 304th day of August an all....

[wolf_wolf]

Where did this "move Brisbane to Melbourne" thing surface from anyway ? Heard some Melbourne sectors were actually being transferred up to Brisbane...???

Wasn't Sydney approach (50 people) going to Melbourne Centre by 2012 ? (announced in 2002). How quickly that fell on its arse. How the hell then are you going to move 350 odd people out of Brisbane ? Not in 10 years, that's for sure...

[boree3]

"Heard some Melbourne sectors were actually being transferred up to Brisbane...???"

WTF? Don`t ya know most sectors in the deep south don`t even use the current system we have? Wots an auto hand-off? Non-coord trial? It all sounds a bit dodgy to the deep south.

Still, i digress. Yes, BS Castle ( somewhere between the two largest operational centres ) no doubt is formulating plans to efficiently and effortlessly move Vegas to the deep south. Think of the cost savings, the axing of the Brisbane Gymnasium, the forced redundancies in the cafeteria ( No, they`re on contract- we just close the doors! Easy!) The list is endless. Quick, employ more consultants, accountants etc. to compile a list of efficiencies that we can realise. OOOOHHHH this sounds so GOOOOOD!

Close that Academy NOW. Who needs trainees! Version 12 will save us heaps until we can move to a new fangled thing that doesn`t require those pesky controllers.


ps. Anybody know when we can expect V12 to get another go! Now that was fun!

[max1]

Management are desperate to get Version12 in as it provides seamless upgrades i.e. we don't have to go to a degraded system whilst upgrades are done.

Why is this you ask. Because the seamless upgrades are required to allow the use of the Flight Plan Conflict Probe (FPCP or FPCTool) to be used on the operational platform. It doesn't pass the safety case in degraded modes.

The FPCP will allow 'Free Flight' that the GSH promised to industry last year at Waypoint 2008 Conference. At this same conference the GM ATC assured industry that ASA would stop over-promising and under delivering. The conference is usually held in July/August. Embarrassing.

The one centre concept is just more 'smoke and mirrors'. If you have less than 10-15 years to go (which is probably most of us in Vegas) I wouldn't worry about updating the winter wardrobe.

It is just more spin that allows ANOTHER project team to justify their existence and get up their FF points.

I hope V12 does get up in a usable form and we can give the industry what ASA keep promising. We then run into the problem that the procedural sim exercises will all then need to be redone. From what I am hearing not a lot of work has been done in this regard yet.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Assuming such a move is actually possible / probable / (WTF?):eek:

Will those staff who choose not to relocate to 'Mexico' be offerred redundo, or will they simply be 'left by the wayside'?

:ooh:

(Could be 'nice' if one is approaching retirement age anyway....):D:D

[tobzalp]

I asked on Civil Air and the answer is yes, VRs all 'round. Sign me up!

[boree3]

Chainsaws at 20 paces i`d say!

Stand in line Sonny.....:ugh:

[ForGreaterSafety]

Max1, what aspect of the procedural sim exercises don't fit with ver12?

Please excuse my ignorance.

Cheers
FGS

[RATKA]

Are you still short of controllers, or is this now thread drift from the thread drift?

[Louis Cypher]

Max1,

Very insightful!

On the money, I'd suggest, except for:

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Facilitated workshops will provide you with an opportunity to outline your priorities and contribute to the future of our industry.

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Book early to avoid disappointment! :E

[Unregistered1]

RATKA,

Drastically Short. Or haven't you noticed??

[max1]

FGS,

It is not so much a doesn't fit. The current exercises are in line with the aircraft flying on designated routes.
New exercises will have to be designed to have the aircraft in 'free flight' and the new dilemnas that may bring up.
Current sectorization is built around designated routes, and there are usually defined boundary positions. With the advent of free flight controllers will have to be alert to the different co-ord requirements that may be required.
As such I have heard that these new exercises for some sectors have not been developed yet. There may be issues that haven't been considered in full yet. e.g. myriad exit/re-entry flights that may impinge on automatic ESTs , Hand-offs etc.
Or it may work well? Heres hoping.

[max1]

Further to my last, I am not disparaging the FPCP. It is a great tool.
The person/s who developed it are very smart individuals.
It is now whether the forward planning, when we get it on the operational platform, has been done?

[boree3]

Doesn`t the FPCP rely on Version 12?

A little birdy whispered in my ear today " At least a month and maybe 12 months away from the operational platform for a second go". mmmmm.

I still reckon we`ll need more contollers before technology and generic ratings make controllers obsolete!

[go-rownd]

All those jolly airplanes,
Zapping hither thither,
Version 12 will save the day:
ATC ranks will wither.

No longer ratings need be held
For some this may suit yer
The ali-cans controlled from blo
By my version 12 computer.

GR

[tobzalp]

Last time I checked, the kiwis had a FPCP and also have controllers. I assume this would be world's best practice? As usual AsA will look for flexibility and this would of course mean in real language 'saving money' hence the requirement for Zero controllers. Of course this would mean no shut down due lack of services...... until the whole thing shuts down with a failure...... again.

[ForGreaterSafety]

Thanks Max, if there is free flight I guess the system will have to insert a dummy COP or it will not have auto handoff I suppose?
Your thoughts?

Cheers

[ferris]

The GCAA, Serco, the IAA, DFS et al, all thank Airservices management for their ongoing ineptitude and dazzling contribution to staffing the world's Towers and ACCs. Well done. Other ANSPs to be added shortly.

Smile and wave, boys, smile and wave.

[Saliantpoint]

Add

ANS Czech Republic.

ps

Global Recruits be careful what you wish for: the Learning Academy still has no idea how to effectively manage you training, and it's a bloody long way to go to be very disappointed !

SP xxxx

[Quokka]

The GCAA, Serco, the IAA, DFS et al, all thank Airservices management for their ongoing ineptitude and dazzling contribution to staffing the world's Towers and ACCs.

Add DGMAN... and difficult to see how any of us could apply to return to Australia for the new EBA package given that we're currently on a salary well over the equivalent of AUD$200,000 and about to get a payrise, 16 weeks Recreation Leave per year, less shifts rostered per year, 6 on 4 off, one Grey Evening per month, no call-outs on Rostered Days Off, private health insurance at half of the cost of private health insurance in Australia, free government health care (if you choose to use it instead of going private) and a petrol price (Premium) fixed at 40c per litre (that's 40 Australian cents per litre)... standard unleaded is 30c per litre.

[Baileys]

And Airservices is stocked with a nice bunch of Gen Y controllers who have been patiently waiting to finish up their 5 years experience and training bond and who are keen to explore the world on proper ATC money.

The exodus will continue no doubt.

[divingduck]

Actually a number of us were told that we were not wanted at all...but I'm not complaining, the trout and salmon season are just getting underway here in Ireland and we are having some great weather for a change:ok:

[Dick Smith]

Quokka, you left out being locked up without a trial for committing a "crime" that would not be considered as such in Australia.

And do you have a strong and powerful union there?

[Kangaroo Court]

Dick,

Why doesn't the government just buy back Air Services and have it run by CASA?

This "privatised" idea of running something like that with no competition is pretty much like handing over the banks to the loan sharks.

[Dick Smith]

When the Government "owned" ATC ,ie it was a government department, it was 50% funded by general taxpayers- now that would be great for flyers but probably not that popular with taxpayers!

[TrafficTraffic]

Quokka, you left out being locked up without a trial for committing a "crime" that would not be considered as such in Australia.


LOL

40 - 15 to Dick


New Balls Please


TT

[AlJassmi]

Perhaps ATC was previously 50% funded by taxpayers, but now it's maybe 130% funded by the travelling public. They return a large dividend to the government every year - it's just another tax on travel. It's my opinion that such an essential service should be revenue neutral and not run as a business to maximise profits.

[Funk]

As it happens without a union I have a regulator that protects my working hours' short changes as happens in AsA are prohibited and I am guaranteed my 56 days leave each year.
We also have a safety management culture that encourages full reporting and no longer takes a punitive approach towards controllers.
Its not perfect but I cannot see myself returning to the console in Oz.

This is all sounding repetitive, sadly I cannot see any change and colleagues who have returned to AsA are even more bitter because they have seen how good it should be.

[tobzalp]

15% Gross or 15% Net? Top of the heap or on average. The 'union' achieved what I believe to be a good overall package for ALL controllers. The overall value of the Profession in Australia for the first time since CAs came into existence has progressed.

[divingduck]

C'mon guys, don't be too hard on him...I'm sure he means well.

But, in Ireland the lads have a reasonably strong union, and they haven't seen a decent pay-rise for ages.
But then when you are getting the equivalent of 200K Aussie AND 35 days leave AND Public Holidays off if you want AND 8KAussie for signing up to do O/T's (and then get 1k per call in...they can only ask you to do a max of 8 per year, after that it's up to you) AND Ryanair flights to Europe only cost a fiver AND everyone is happy to work there.

So nothing like AsA at all is it?

AND no one is languishing in jail here for no reason either:E

[go-rownd]

Guantanamo Bay Dick?????

All locked up with fair trials and total justice?? What crimes had they committed... apart from being ...... "BAD GUYS"!

[Kangaroo Court]

Dick,

It may not be popular to have an ATC system partly funded by the tax payers, but everyone in Oz benefits from the trade and commerce done by aviation. Wouldn't it be less popular to have aeroplanes running into each other?

I say it's time to put it back the way it was!!

[Dubya]

Sorry if this has been covered somewhere in the previous 65 pages....but...

...I've just been sent an email from AsA, asking for me to re-apply...

I've got Twr, App, and Enroute experience.....what sort of money are they offereing.....their HR dept won't elaborate on that topic.

I just don't want to spend half a day on the application if it's just worth toilet paper.....

thanks...

[Kangaroo Court]

Dubya,

They're going to outsource your services to Baghdad...didn't you hear?

You Yanks are alright; just don't forget your sense of humour!!

[Quokka]

Quokka, you left out being locked up without a trial for committing a "crime" that would not be considered as such in Australia.

Not true.

In two years, the only ex-pat in this town who ended up in the cells was released after two days for an offense that, in Australia, would have left him/her in jail for several months and a ban from driving for quite some time after that... if not for life.

No one hurt except his pride and a demolished car.

And do you have a strong and powerful union there?

Don't seem to need it. We're doing quite fine without one. Amazing what a positive relationship with lower management, some gentle negotiation and a little patience can achieve... In-Sh-Allah

Traffic... ;)

[go-rownd]

...to the sandpit!

Is the Rees-Jo... (GCAA) restriction of 58 years of age still applicable?

Have they openned UAQ International?? I'd lodge in a Unit near the B'cuda!!

Cheers lucky swi..., pi.., "'flu" people!!

GR

[undervaluedATC]

on the 11th of May I mentioned that the union website is starting to make a list of instances when we have less than the core rostered staff but no NOTAM issued. On a seperate thread we also listed any instances when NOTAMS were issued.

Guess what?

Nearly 1 month later, the thread recording periods of less than required staff with NO NOTAM is longer than the other thread advising of service reduction due staff shortage.

I guess TFN really wants to be able to say TIBA etc was only due the unsigned EBA - and that is a lot easier to claim if you control the notification system :{

[253]

All,

So the AsA plan to solve the staff shortages is to recruit from the Air Force again. Word is that 14 have resigned to take up offers from AsA but will this actually solve the staff shortages after all?

There is no way 14 is going to solve the shortages, by my guess they are over 50 plus short still (in reality) and by years end could be over 80.

I am not here to debate the RAAF ATC system, they are in a shambles and most are underpaid (thus more leaving for supposedly greener pastures) and they are undermanned and need to right their ship soon or founder.

I have been watching this topic go around now for years and years and have been an ATCO on 4 different continents for numerous different ANSPs for over 25 years (in all streams of ATC).

The business model that is currently being used in Australia for AsA is a bloody joke. The only thing the yanks have done correctly with their ANSP the FAA is to keep it a government department. Even the Canadian model of NavCanada although not for profit also has some serious problems, mainly management as does the UK model.

If there is one that must be done is for the government to dump this “ridiculous” business model concept and run it as a government department. The prime reason is for “safety”. Yes the taxpayer may fund some, but it doesn’t have to be 50% or even 25%, just needs to break even. This way the “proper service levels” will be provided and the correct training both initial and continual IFER training will be also provided which it is currently NOT.
The main problem with the current business model is that it is too management top heavy, with all this bonus and performance bull**** built in for managers, so naturally they (the managers) will run the show with as few staff as possible to make their targets and get their bonuses. This is why a lot of the ex RAAFies are in lower management carry the can because a lot of them will do what they are told because they are used to it, not really the right way to fix things.
We also have the ex NAB training manager now the AsA college manager, pondering thoughts like why cant we get “ordinary teachers” to teach this stuff. What the f*?* does a bloody teacher know about Air Traffic Control and separation, sequencing, speed control, radar vectoring etc. Bloody nothing. This would be the same as putting an ATC in to the NAB to train bank staff about mortgages, the controller probably wouldn’t have a clue. This training centre manager placement was one of the biggest recent debacles I can remember. What is wrong with the AsA board, have they lost their marbles.

Quokka made a valid remark about relationship with management. At no stage has ASA headed by this idiot TFN, made attempts to forge a positive and meaningful long term relationship with the workface controllers. In fact it as been the opposite, ever since the AsA option commenced. I think Richard Bransons management model works the best and should be followed, very few if any unhappy campers there.

As for pay: Well everyone has an opinion of what they are worth, but from my perspective and being around the traps a while: The pay scales as of 1 July 2009 should be as follows: the minimum base for newbie controller should be between $95K and $100K (after successful completion of OJT training & licenced) and the maximum if we look at the latest agreement payscales should be a minimum of $200K. These are just salary only and not including any super (govt guarantee or other) or other allowances and would be spread over about 12 levels.
These rates of pay would account for the extreme specialist nature of the job of an Air Traffic Controller and their real input to the Australian economy, which really needs to be formally recognised by the government and fixed.

TO MR DICK SMITH:
With all due respect Dick, when it comes to Air Traffic Services provision, you really don’t have a clue. Your claim to fame is as a wealthy electronics guy made good (congratulations on that btw), a pilot who hates ATC’s and a stint at CASA. Keep your nose out of something you know nothing about, and have had no experience in.
An ANSP should be operating at 110% staffing, its as simple as that. This is not a simple business to run and Air Traffic Controllers are not as common as teachers, doctors, electronic salesman, real estate agents, etc. They have a very specific qualification which requires specific training and a specific type of person. There should be about 1100 or so not the current 900 or so and therefore make up a very very small part of the national workforce, but their input (as has been mentioned by others), to the economy by maintaining a safe airways system is very high.
Also, re the comments about being locked up in the middle east without a trial for a crime that would not be considered one in Australia. Dick you are a joke…I can see you have never lived in the Middle East and have shown your lack of “worldliness” yet again for all and sundry to see.

TO ANSA:

Mate for the first time in a long while I have to agree with you on a few points, re salaries and the “locking up issue”. Also agree with you re the emergency training issues comparison as well. Also totally agree with you about Oz learning something new from other countries and other controllers who have been overseas. That’s what is “best practice”.

Hey Ducky how goes it, settled in to the dismal Irish wx there?

Traffic long time matee!!

Think nuff said for now……I await the avalanche that will no doubt follow.

cheers

[Baileys]

One of the most telling things is the recruitment page on the ASA website.

I cannot believe the amount of management vacancies that are constantly posted there. It really is amazing how many managers are needed in Australia. How do they fit them all into that Canberra building - and what the hell do they do all day every day.....?

[mikk_13]

Well nothing is going to change so either get used to working for them or leave. There are plenty of good ANSP around.

[TrafficTraffic]

253....


advance and be recognised?

TT

Lo Mikk_13 best of luck

[mikk_13]

I don't mean any offence but lets be honest, they aren't going to change until there is an accident, or a mass sacking by the board, or something crazy happens. Lets be realistic, it isn't going to get better, they still think they can get more out of the people they have. If you don't want to be appart of this, consider your options and have a go at working overseas.

They are taking raafies as it is cheaper and faster than taking someone off the street. They could easily take people off the street but it would cost more money so they will get the raaf to pay for the training, then pick the ready entry controllers out of the raaf. Its funny as it is saving ASA money, which is given back to the gov, and costing the government more by the lack of controllers in the RAAF and more training costs in the RAAF. So really ASA management are getting their big pay cheques at the tax payers expense.

mik

[wolf_wolf]

Hallo Mick! Wie sind die Deutsch-Unterricht geht? Genießen Sie einen schönen deutschen Sommer ja? Ihren alten Arbeitsplatz leidet, ohne dass Sie ... Sie Bastard!

Aber Sie haben Recht. Airservices sich niemals ändern wird, bis "Bodensee" (Lake Constance) wird zu "Lake Argyle" zu beschreiben, anstatt die nächste große Flugzeugunglück.... :ugh:

Auf Wiedersehen




Text and Web - Google Translate (http://translate.google.com.au/translate_t#) :ok:

[mikk_13]

Deutsch lassons sind groß. Die Arbeit bist gut. Das Leben ist schön. Mein neue Dienstplan wird vier Tage auf, vier Tage frei.

Ich fahre mein Fahrrad zur Arbeit jeden Morgen durch den Park. Der DFS ist recht gut zu arbeiten.

Das Geld ist gut. Ich mag Karlsruhe. Die Missus mag Karlsruhe. Es ist gut.

tchuss

[TrafficTraffic]

Wolf Wolf,

an inappropriate post at best..

TT

[concernaviat]

Re: "Your claim to fame is as a wealthy electronics guy made good (congratulations on that btw), a pilot who hates ATC’s and a stint at CASA. Keep your nose out of something you know nothing about, and have had no experience in"

It might be worthwhile getting your facts straight first. Prior to Dick's last stint at CASA, he was also the Chairman on the CAA around 1989/90/91, when the organisation did have responsibility for Air Traffic Services. Along with former CEO Frank Baldwin, Dick was around at the time of regional Flight Service Unit closures and the decision to proceed with the 2-centre concept. So, to say he has no experience in Air Traffic Services is not true.

[mrtwister]

ASA have just began a course for ab initio controllers 2 weeks ago. The next course is due to start some time in October with 2 more courses booked in to start before the end of the year after the October course. More courses are planned for next year but haven't been 'signed off' on yet. Courses are now only taking 8 trainees at a time. There we go, shortage fixed :rolleyes:

[Here to Help]

At least 8 at a time seems to address the problem of 1 instructor sitting behind 2 trainees in the simulator. That might satisfy any CASA or internal audit but it doesn't satisfy the staff shortage.

[everyonefedup]

I think the clear evidence that TFN and his ridiculous GMs have lied to the minister and public is in the response to the questions on notice during the last senate estimates required. They have produced the stats for absences over the past few years and there is a clear decline in single day absences where they have been claiming that there was an increase led by renegade controllers as a tactic for the CA.

So if the sick leave is going down but we are still having shortages it must mean that there are genuine shortages.

But the problem here is that we have a CEO and Minister that are more interested in themselves than being honest with the ATCs and the public. There needs to be an inquiry into the management of Airservices over the past few years in the context of the public statemens made by Greg and supported by the new minister.

Included in that inquiry should be a detailed examination of bonuses paid to managers in the context of the shortages and the complete stuff up that was the CA process. The fact that certain people on the "CAN"'t team have been given a six month paid holiday to get an MBA as a reward for achieving nothing is ridiculous. ATCs can't even get the time to do essential training but the over paid managers get a six month paid holiday to get a qualification that doesn't directly impact the operations? It is a fricken joke.

But do I think anything will change? No... let's face it... we live in a world where the TFNs of the world can do and say anything and never be held to account for their lies or behaviour. Where a NAB manager can stuff the ATC college and get paid a bonus. Where the people and change team can grow fat off the backs of ATCs and never provide real services.

I think it is important to note that in Airservices it doesn't matter if you are competent, capable and professional. All that matters is how good you are at charming key people and hiding any facts that might humiliate.

In my view Airservices shouldn't be handed back to the government - it should be completely privatised and held to ISO standards with real audits and real scrutiny instead of the weak audits of CASA that airservices can squirm out of by winking at the minister.

[go-rownd]

Why don't you gather your "evidence"; prepare your brief; and go to the Shadow Transport or Aviation (?) Minister for him to ask the questions in Parliament?

[Baileys]

What a good idea. You would have to find the evidence first though...oh and someone willing to actually put the effort in.

[Blockla]

Why don't you gather your "evidence"; prepare your brief; and go to the Shadow Transport or Aviation (?) Minister for him to ask the questions in Parliament? Who exactly started this mess? Oh that's right... This cancer started in the mid to late 90's...

[everyonefedup]

I wrote to the senators on the portfolio comittee and suggested questions... unfortunately most of them were put on notice instead of being asked. I think there are bigger political fish to fry at the moment... that's kind of what I mean... it doesn't matter what Greg and Airservices does.... at the end of the day the organisation isn't visible enough to matter.

[C-change]

More Raafies jumpin ship eh !

Good luck to you all but be warned people, the grass isn't always greener. Look further than just the dollars on offer. If it looks too good to be true, then it probably is.
Make sure you get anything offered in writing, as the spoken word is often overlooked in AsA (managements 1st rule).
Keep your mouth shut, as anything you did previously in the Raaf doesn't count for **** until you have a few AsA years under your belt.
Leave the Raaf on a good note, don't burn those bridges, you might need them one day.

Watch your back and good luck.

[SuperStinker]

When exactly was it that Dick last held an ATC licence?

[westausatc]

In addition to what C-change said....

Even if you do get it in writing, do not be surprised if they renege anyway... 'that person didn't have the authority to approve that' is one of their favourite lines in that circumstance.

As one who jumped ship a few years ago, it is better and worth it. BUT AsA management is totally (and blindly in my opinion) driven by the dollars - you will very quickly get sick of the organisation trying to short change you to save a few dollars, of shifts not being fully replaced ('we can tactically manage it' is another favourite saying - how exactly? Ask airborne aircraft to just stop?) to save a couple of hours of overtime, no operationally significant refresher training, the list of shortcuts is endless. All the while, nothing visible to industry is promulgated because it would now be an embarrassment with the CA signed off. The organisation is a joke but, sadly, is a better place to be than the RAAF.

[mikk_13]

anyways how is tops going these days?

[tobzalp]

How is your health Mik?:ok:

[Saliantpoint]

Hmmmm...Page 3

I guess this thread is dead then

Everyone happy at last!:ok:

SP

[TwoFiftyBelowTen]

Hello once again and welcome to "Who Wants To Be An SDE Controller"
and might I say how absolutely sensational you are all looking this evening!
This is PC with you once again, and some of you might remember me when I used to be called "Guy Smiley" on another game show. Of course you do!

Now ladies and gentlemen, which SDE feature would you like revealed on this auspicious occasion? The one behind this sparkly curtain .....(Ooooooh!) or the one in this shimmering box .......(Aaaaah)

Oh dear, is that the time? Fans, unfortunately we are right out of time on this occasion, but be sure to join us again when we attempt to reveal a winning feature of SDE on, "Who Wants To Be An SDE Controller"

The GSH is dressed by Anthony Squires, shoes by John Kan'tCondoneUs

[Jabawocky]

Gooday Coral,

I have notice a few lately where delays for start clearances etc due traffic management have been published.

Look again and you might see! :ok:

[ferris]

As it's been explained to me (a long, long way away now- or 'a safe distance' ;) )

Airspace no longer 'closes'- the workload is merely 'managed'. i.e. Whereas previously, you might have a sector go TIBA due to not enough staff, NOW they leave that sector open, combine it with another sector (sometimes with someone not rated on that sector), but reduce the flow rate dramatically. Tadaahhh! NO TIBA. The airlines still cop a rogering (delays) due to AsA's cost shifting, but there are more smoke and mirrors so that it doesn't end up in the papers. No more "please explains". It just appears as a 'traffic delay'.
I tell you, managers are worth every penny.

[Baileys]

You guys will be pleased to know that if we are lucky ASA management might respond directly to this thread as they did to the ASA one over in ATC issues.

Check it out - they do read PPrune.

[Jack Ranga]

In that case, JH, any truth to the rumour that SDE is getting:

The ar$e?
The Heave-Ho?
The flick?
Sh!t canned?
Turfed?
Rolled back?

And is that before/after that imbecile in the academy gets the ar$e? etc

[tonto papadopolous]

g'day Jabawocky,
There have been a few instances recently of start clearances.

One instance had to do with extended single runway operations at Sydney, meaning the sectors feeding the traffic into Sydney become overloaded, hence the start clearances. No use letting aircraft taking off if the holding stack is already full.

Another instance was due to a thunderstorm overhead Sydney airport itself. This rendered the airport unusable for half an hour, leading to similar issues with traffic holding as mentioned above.

These are only a couple of instances that I am familiar with, and they were directly related to traffic management.
Thats not to say that there were other instances that were not related to traffic management, if you've got some examples, do divulge

[Baileys]

Hope you Aust ATC guys/ladies are supporting your Qantas industry brothers who are in "negotiations" at the moment over pay and conditions and job security. It sounds like they are getting a shafting like you guys will probably get when your "negotiation" starts - as per usual ASA tactics.

You might want to think ahead and support those who you will ask for support later down the track.

Just a thought.

[Roger Standby]

Baileys, what can we do to help? Happy to oblige. I have been watching AsA almost replicate Qantas tactics in recent years. Our base has been divided into 3 distinct groups (QF, jet* & Q-Link similarities) where we have no doubt we will eventually be enticed to play off against each other.

Solidarity, folks. Good luck.:ok:

[C-change]

It seems to be a common thread with the Aust Govn agencies at the moment when negotiating agreements;


The CPSU has notified Fair Work Australia of bargaining disputes in 12 Australian Public Service agencies covering over 100,000 employees, after the Australian Public Service Commission refused good faith discussions on their common conditions for public service agencies.
These agencies are the Department of Human Services (including Centrelink, Medicare and Child Support), Prime Minister and Cabinet, Defence, Infrastructure and Transport, Health and Ageing, Finance, Agriculture, Fishing and Forestry (DAFF), Immigration, the Australian Tax Office, Customs and the Department of Innovation, Industry, Science and Research (DIISR).


Here is a link if your interested in reading more.
CPSU: Campaigns: CPSU takes Federal Government agencies covering 100 000 workers to Fair Work Australia (http://www.cpsu.org.au/campaigns/news/23185.html)

[Genisis Dreaming]

Staff Shortages claimed Brissie App yesterday. Massive delays. Up to 40mins at one stage. 4 min trails I believe.

[boree3]

Staff Shortages claimed Brissie App yesterday.

I have it on good authority there was no mention of any 'Staff Shortages' in the notam.

'Operational Restrictions' was the term used if my info is correct.

Rumour has it the situation in Sydney has not improved either.

Thank god i`m not part of the mess anymore! Good luck to those remaining with a new EBA around the corner. No doubt youse all deserve a "Damn good payrise"!:yuk:

[groundstation]

The ATIS advised of delays and the NOTAM for traffic holding due to single RWY ops had 30 holding.

ATIS YBBN T
RWY: 19
OPR INFO: DELAYS TO ALL AIRCRAFT
FOR TRAFFIC MANAGEMENT
WIND: 260/8
CLD: CAVOK
TMP: 14
QNH: 1016
SIGWX: MOD TURB FORECAST BLW 5000

[BurglarsDog]

So, how are things at the Academy these days?

.......Just wondering ;)

[Blockla]

When you no longer have the resources to control the aircraft..
make sure you have all the resources possible to control the message
Gold Star young man!

[Plazbot]

http://www.misanthropicgeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/good-grief-charlie-brown1.jpg

[flightfocus]

I have it on good authority there was no mention of any 'Staff Shortages' in the notam.

As has been stated previously, you will not see that phrase again in a NOTAM.

It has been banished to the far reaches. The full weight of management wrath awaits any mortal with the audacity to tell the truth. :ugh:

Last year some time we received an internal instruction that those words must be removed from all NOTAM pro formas - staffing problem solved. Bonus time!!!

Unfortunately the delays and holding that you often see are frequently due to restrictions imposed upon ATC's by the lack of staff. Recently saw COORD come through asking for 5mins between aircraft departing on same SID.

Result = you get delayed and blame ATC, but the reality is everyone (left) in the background is working like a one armed paper hanger making sure you get there safely with absolute minimum resources.

Now we are going to rebrand ourselves so we can be reborn and put all these pesky staffing issues behind us. ONce we have a new brand, we have a) a line to judge our achievements by and b) a shiny new ball to distract the YSCB HQ dwellers from the real issues. :{

[keepemseperated]

As has been stated previously, you will not see that phrase again in a NOTAM.

Well not until CA/EBA negotiations next year, and then I am sure it will be seen again, on a daily basis.