Merged: ASA Staff Shortage

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day Plaz,

As an ex FSO, and one of the 'Reps' during all of that time....been there - done that.
With industry support and 'their' own ineptitude of the times, it only took 'them' 9 years to get rid of us.

You guys are way in front of that as you must(?) be seen as an 'essential service'.

This can be good - this can be bad.

Good - you are needed to keep the transport requirements of the country running.
Bad - because you are, then you are vulnerable to 'public opinion' and the consequent Govt potential knee jerk reaction to keep you working under some form of legal redress.

You may get some of your RDO's, when this is seen to be THE big problem that it is,
and the CEO may get a kick in the pants for not recruiting more etc,
but the pay rise is looking shaky...IMHO.

And, lastly, alas, NOBODY KNOWS (i.e. the public AND the pollies) about the facts / reality of the situation.

And, as a pilot (CPL and Rec.), and ex FSO, I feel for you.

I think I was trying to show that there is some naiveity here??
As have others?

I hate to say this Plaz, but you did ask, I think you're going to 'get rolled'.
Unfortunately.:(

But I sincerely hope that you don't! :ok:

[max1]

Griffo,
Thanks for your support on this and other threads.
We don't have to work in Oz, there are quite a few people with O/S offers being considered, and others who are tarting up the CVs. Most will stay for lifestyle/family reasons.But those that leave will finally break the already creaking system.
Unless they put our pictures up at the airports and march us at gunpoint to the consoles, alot more people will leave.
It is assumed as though we don't have a choice but to work in Oz. From being in the system previously , you know the pride we have in the job. None of us want to hurt the public. I hope they won't be too upset when a critical mass of controllers leave and a bad situation gets worse.
This is not a threat, we have had enough, if it doesn't improve we are left with no choice but to look elsewhere. It is an absolutely toxic environment to work in, and this can be placed squarely at the feet of the CEO and his Spin Doctors.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day Max,

Thanks for that.

Yep! THAT is your 'Ace In The Hole'...your democratic right as an Australian to seek your employment wherever you may see fit, and support your family.
As many have done so far - and more will keep doing.

The way its going................will you please turn the light off??

:ok::ok: Cheers

[Howabout]

Griffo,

I understand your comment about "ace-in-the-hole", but isn't that such a sad state of affairs when conditions reach the stage where people are forced to "vote with their feet". I don't know that we can afford to have a brain-drain of this nature. All that talent and experience lost - I imagine it will take years to rebuild, unless something positive happens and we can attract back those who have gone overseas. But I can't imagine that they'd want to come back under the present regime because if people are still bailing out, then it sends the message that nothing's changed since they, themselves, departed. It's almost the classic "death-spiral" and I can't see the demand from overseas outfits decreasing. Hell, if I worked for this bunch and had the opportunity to drink Guiness at the source for a few years, I'd jump at the opportunity as well. I certainly don't blame them for taking the option but it's so forking sad that it's reached this stage.

To reverse the adage, the powers that be seem determined to adopt a position of "short term gain for long term pain". For everybody else, of course. The perpetrators will be long gone and on descent under the golden parachute by then.

[missy]

Nothing on paper. Detail will be in the devil.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Gudday 'Howabout',

If I try and do that 'Kiwi' thing I'm gunna stuff it - so I won't.

" the powers that be seem determined to adopt a position of "short term gain for long term pain".

YUP!! YUP!! and YUP!!! and YUP!! AGAIN - I think!!

Cheers:ok::ok:

(Imagine asking one of our near-Asian country neighbours for the Area QNH......
Goodness gracious me, it is 1013.....):yuk::yuk:

[The Euronator]

YES 94.4% ( 701 Votes )

NO 5.6% ( 42 Votes )

Hold on to your hats, this is going to get interesting :eek:

Civil Air Australia - Home (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/)

[Capcom]

missy is on the point guard :E
.
..... weapons are 'safe' .. for now .... lets see the devils detail :ooh: :eek: ... so to speak! :E
.
Stay Tuned Sports Fans :D

[BeGoneTFN]

If that is not a vote of absolutely no confidence what would be?

100%! :}

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

THAT result is VERY good guys and gals.

The O/T issue will certainly see some sort of result.
And 'legal' too, in that whilst your EBA requires you to do 'reasonable' O/T, that cannot mean every 'spare hole' - surely??

Good Stuff, and a GREAT result.

Cheers:ok::ok:

[BeGoneTFN]

Finally nice to see some progress.

Hope you choked on the ballot result TFN!

As a consequence of the inept approach to this negotiation by ASA, I can't help but feel that irepairable damage has been caused and all for what?

The relationship between the workers and management has been poisoned. (I reserve the right to use the term "mangement" very loosely)

Controllers will still be relocating O/S, the EBA negotiation is but one issue.

TFN, you cant.

[Plazbot]

95+% states very clearly that Civil Air represents the vast vast number of controllers. Write that down Greg.

If the rumblings that an agreement may be closer than it was yesterday are true, it probably is the worst case scenario for Airserices as the service interruptions will continue becuase ther ARE NO STAFF. I would have thought that TFN and co would have liked to see this process drawn out for another year to get numbers up and blame TIBA on the renegade controllers NOT their piss poor management.

[Robbovic]

Yes, folks, very strong story on the doggo last night that an agreement is very close (sorry, I may have been overtaken by events during my sleep this morning, any later news?).

All I can say to TFN is "BEWARE THE IDES OF MARCH!!"

I would say that Fat Tony is even now talking to the Brutus and Cassius on the Board and telling them to start sharpening the stiletos.

TFN is a dead duck politically.

[blind freddy]

Prediction: CA certification by end of March. TFN falls/pushed by end of FY. New CEO announces new(!) restructure by DEC09. This includes removal of the ALM structure, with those who can regaining their ATC credentials. Series of Meet the Staff tours commence shortly after.

You forgot: Lies and mistruths to follow in new year.

Oh, and staff shortages continue!!

Maybe they could look at the CEO of the Irish or Germans ANSPs to come out and do the job?!!

[boree3]

The other rumour last night was that TFN turned on his negotiating team last week. " You didn`t tell me the negotiations were stalled" or words to that effect!

Are there enough parachutes to go round? This is looking a little like a complete stall with no chance of recovery. Women and children first if you please Greg.:=

[BN APP 125.6]

" You didn`t tell me the negotiations were stalled"Are you kidding me?

I know Canberra is isolated, but you would have to be part of sect or cult or something to not know...... oh, wait a minute.

Anyhow, Mr Russell put out his own memos to staff acknowledging some time ago how disappointed he was that the ATC CA was not progressing. I don't buy it.

[Sunfish]

Mr. TFN was gone from the moment the Minister requested the "come to Jesus" meeting.

If Boree's rumour is correct, that would be consistent with a narcissist now eating it's young.

[BN APP 125.6]

I wonder if there is a Game Show looking for a new Host with a nice shiny suit?

[max1]

One of TFNs big problems is that he knows bugger all about providing an ATS service and never bothered to learn.

It is not okay to sit in your ivory tower and hope that you have blindly picked the right person (GSH) to implement a Brave New World.

There are too many elements of SDE that have been blindly hit and hope.
The required due diligence and proof of concept was not done. We never had the staff, technology, agreements with the military re-airspace, or work done on standardisation.

The visionary (GSH) hoped that someone would bring his ideas to fruition, and spent his time lulling an ATS-naive CEO into believing it was achievable now. TFN has only himself to blame. Learn the business. Then you will know yourself when you are being sold a pup.

TFN justifies his paypacket on the responsibilities he is required to manage, it should be on results. Time to fall on your sword.

[everyonefedup]

Greg is probably thinking of big bonuses for the CA team for dragging it on so long and saving the company money. No back pay is allowed remember? So by not putting the agreement in place in time they were saving money every day.

What I would like to know is how much was spent on this joke of a CA process? A full time team of ****** 3rd level managers for over 9 months (say 400k in salary) plus all the travel, plus the numerous consultants to come in and provide strategic advise on how to screw over employees... it is not a far stretch to say that they would have spent a pretty penny.

Maybe next time we go into negotiations they could make their productivity improvement through immediately sacking the CA team, not hiring consultants and just listening to employees when they speak.

Does it really take a ballot for you to realised that you are f@#%ing up, TFN? Or perhaps you need a group of consultants to come in, develop a scope of analysis, perform some fundamental strucural reallignment back to the strategic vision of the company, and then give you a nice power point presentation to tell you that you aren't liked... it isn't true unless you have paid a consultant $10,000 to tell you after all...

[Here to Help]

"Everyone" is waiting with patience.

[sunnySA]

No back pay is allowed remember?

Back pay will not be paid although it is permissble under the bargaining framework which says "remuneration increases are to apply prospectively, other than in exceptional circumstances".

Not negotiating in good faith probably doesn't qualify as an exceptional circumstance.:ugh:

[undervaluedATC]

any rumours could damage our new-found "AsA-actually-negotiating-in-good faith" experience - which is why "everyone is waiting with patience"

[BN APP 125.6]

Fly by Wire - yes you are correct.

It is true that is a rumour.

Yours by the look of it.

Why not wait and find out facts instead?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey 'UATC',

You made post no. 888 this site

V E L L Y L U C K Y ....:ok: :ok:
Maybe you get to have day off soon??:}

[amberale]

OM, I think you sound like a Troll and should go back to your Canberra hole.

AA

[Here to Help]

Patience. .

[blind freddy]

Don't hold your breath people.

I hear it is not going as well as expected......

[Baileys]

Depends what your expectations are.....

[Plazbot]

Let us not forget that ATC have a protected bargaining period in place and have ticked the box with the ballot result. That ballot was not the end of things. If AsA start playing silly buggers or offer sh!t, ATC can take entirely legal protected action as per the list of possibilities on the ballot paper. Like H2H says, patience. I for one am not expecting Today's offer to please me in the slightest. I will be somewhat surprised if it does.:hmm:

[Howabout]

125.6; I wondered about your comments regarding the game show host. I could not figure it out, so I asked an ATC aquaintance as to who this bloke might be. It ties in with a RAPAC presentation I attended two years ago in Melbourne. All I can do is quote one of our most famous entertainers: "Why are people so unkind?"

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Well guys and gals,

It is now Friday arvo, past 4pm, the 'favourite' time for 'management' to send emails telling all and sundry what 'they' are going to do next.......and...
All's quiet on the 'Eastern Front'...??

No commitments as yet??

Cheers

[oziatc]

Unfortunately they are still hammering out details and don't expect to conclude until at least Wednesday

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Thanks 'Ozi'...

:ok::ok:

[everyonefedup]

so we wait some more.... afterall they have only had months and months of doing stuff all...

The admin staff are going to a ballot now as well I heard. At least I feel a bit of comfort that the d*%*heads in charge are crapping over all staff equally.

[undervaluedATC]

Personally, I'm encouraged by the delay - the feedback I'm hearing suggests they are going through everything with a fine tooth comb - because as always with AsA - the devil is in the detail (eg. last EBA - "payrise not until first full pay period after nominal date" - usually carefully chosen to be 27 days after the date with no back pay)

And I'm consoled by the fact that if we don't like the offer when we see it, we are still able to start protected industrial action.

[Baileys]

How long does it take to come up with 4% PA and no real improvement in anything else??

[everyonefedup]

Going through an EBA with a fine toothed comb isn't going to achieve much. At the end of the day if we had decent managers and executive we wouldn't have as many problems. It doesn't matter how many pages of legalistic crap they put in to make things clearer - if employees are treated poorly there will always be disputes.

I don't think I care anymore - the fact that Greg isn't making public applologies for his previous statements in the media is enough to make me jump on the next job offer overseas. This place is crap and it is truly disgusting that airservices waits until now to pull their thumb out and start actually negotiating. They should all be sacked... but we all know that the ca team will probably end up being promoted for achieving a result "under extremely vexing circumstances"

Freak'n joke.

[Baileys]

How many CA negotiations have been and gone where the result has been 4% per annum and basically nothing else at all that hasn't eroded working conditions as part of the compromise - maybe the TAAATS transition would be the exception to the general rule...a couple of weeks extra leave.

What makes anyone think things will be so much better this time. I'll take a punt here and say there is zero chance of getting a significantly better offer than the above - from Airservices that is...

[WELLCONCERNED]

what makes you think in this time of EXTREME financial crisis that you need a pay rise anyway?

Your "normal' roster, without overtime, sets you up for around 33 hours per week on average.

With early marks - and don't dare tell me that you don't go home early when relived at a changeover - you work an average of 29 hours per week. With one day per week overtime, you're back up to 35 hours per week.

Your average salaries are over $100k - WAY above the average salary for blue collar workers - and that, after all, is all you are - BLUE COLLAR WORKERS - no degree, a 'mickey mouse' diploma issued by your own training college - and your average working week is still WAY below what normal Australians have to work to make ends meet.

Don't tell me that you have special skills and have 'thousand of live in your hands every day" - that's b.s. and you know it.

If you weren't able to do the job as a 'routine function' day to day, the aptitude tests, the personality tests, and the other assessment processes would have weeded you out way before you even sat in front of a console [though the BOS review probably proves that some misfits fooled the system!].

SOOOO much talk about pulling the plug and leaving the country......well, go ahead - do it!! Those who were brave enough to make the decision have already gone - those of you who have stayed, and are whinging, have absolutely no intention of leaving - God help us all if your decision making skills in front of a TAAATS screen are like those about your life!!

And remember - the places you're thinking of going to all have selection processes that RWQUIRE them to assess your suitability for the job - not just in terms of being able to control traffic - but also to 'fit in' - if you think an ASIO check here in Oz is draconian - wait until you are subjected to a Middle East security check - or a Eurocontrol security check - your bitching on this website has already precluded you from a job anywhere outside Australia.

Take the 4% and be happy - and do the job you've been trained and paid to do!!!

[No Further Requirements]

I've got the popcorn and a comfy chair - this should be interesting!

Cheers,

NFR
Member of the AsA Departed

[Hoss2310]

Ha Ha. That's a very funny post. Bit hard to give any credibility to someone who harps on about aptitude tests and then can't spell 'require'. Can't believe I'm actually replying to that crap.............:D

[trueline]

Bite? I've got better things to do.

[Hempy]

If you weren't able to do the job as a 'routine function' day to day, the aptitude tests, the personality tests, and the other assessment processes would have weeded you out way before you even sat in front of a console

Yep, the same way the selection process ("aptitude tests, the personality tests, and the other assessment processes") weeds out 90 odd percent of applicants, and the way the "Academy" course/OJT weeds out another 30-50% of those who do get through. You may well argue that ATC is "blue collar" work, but having had a hand in training ATC's for over 10 years I'd question how many tradies would have the skills (yes, they are both unique AND rare) to get through ATC training...

ATC's are worth what the market says they are worth, (thankfully) not what you say they are worth. At the moment they are being paid under the international going rate. The concern isn't with "those...who have stayed..(and) have absolutely no intention of leaving", it's attracting recruits in the future. As they say; pay peanuts, get monkeys.

[west atc]

Moving right along, nothing to see here. :}

[BeGoneTFN]

You have seen fit to crawl from your management hole yet again.

Please go and attend to TFN's arse!

[undervaluedATC]

I added "wellconcerned" to my ignore list months ago.

Talk about a troll.

not worth our time responding to.

[lestump]

Why do I get the feeling that Wellconcerned was one of those weeded out by the system? Just a touch of .... I dunno.... envy, jealousy, regret..... Maybe I'm wrong though. He could just be a disgruntled former management type from Aircircuses.

ps What's an early mark?

[welcome_stranger]

It would appear from the vitriol being spewed forth by this ill-distinguished personage that here is the perfect example of


(drum roll) TAAA DE DAAAHHHH!!!!!


SOUR GRAPES

WC (rather an apt condensation of your nom de plume) if god gives you lemons - get another god

[Danger Mouse]

You say wages are set by what the market will pay. Unfortunately the folk who actually pay your wages have no say in the matter AT ALL. Should you win a salary increase hurray for you! BUT down the line it is back to us - THE AIRLINES who have to pay your wages. Right now AIRLINES ARE HURTING (watch them fall). Airservices is making no consideration in their charges to us for the fact that we are flying now with less bums on seats. They are still charging the same charges for us to use the air. If salaries go up air will cost even more to use.
CHIP IN FOR YOUR COUNTRY! We all would love an increase in pay and conditions but lets get realistic and realise now is not the right time. (nor the right time to desert).

[welcome_stranger]

DM you are either naive or stupid I'm not sure which, if you had the foresight to do a little basic fact gathering before you put fingers to keyboard, you may have tempered your comments.

The airlines are hurting - oh dear how sad with Q and JS still posting profits (note that last word profits that means that they are taking in more money than they are paying out - got that). And the big V still hasn't posted a loss, most of the 400 jobs that will go will be by natural attrition.

If you want AsA to lower their charges then get the airlines to lobby the government to stop AsA paying the government a dividend (like that would happen - when was the last time a government did something like that)

BTW the charges are set in consultation with the airlines and with the blessing of the Aust Competition Commission (or what ever it is called) and were set for 5 years. So blame the government and if the Airlines are hurting so much they would be lobbying the government so loudly that even the laziest and most regurgitative reporter would be cuting and pasting some of their PR output into his/her articles.

As for CHIP IN FOR YOUR COUNTRY! what do you think ATC have been doing for the last 10 years tiddlywinks - they took a hit for 9/11 and the demise of Ansett - they did the "right thing" during the SARS epidemic and in the last CA they were threatened with the most draconian work place legislation since the Pit Ponies were afforded a better life than the mine workers and their children.

Enough of my venting my spleen - you truly prove the old adage that

A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING

[ferris]

If salaries go up air will cost even more to use.
You need to speak to the government about that. It is NOT, I repeat, NOT the fault of ATCOs how much the government taxes airpsace users.
The government, clever negotiators, AsA 'managers', or stooges on pprune might endeavour to make ATCs feel guilty for asking for a payrise in the current economic circumstances, but until AsA stops paying the government a dividend of about $100 million each year, only absolute dills would buy it. ATCs have no capacity do get "extra" when times are good- the government just gets more tax remitted via avcharges.
If it is truly in the national interest to restrict cost increases levied on the industry during these tough times, the answer is not to ask ATCs to shoulder MORE of the burden. Simply ask the government to reduce it's impost on the industry.
You might ask why doesn't AsA simply cost-recover?

[Quokka]

Don't tell me that you have special skills and have 'thousand of live in your hands every day" - that's b.s. and you know it.

For what it's worth, WELLCONCERNED is right about this one... sorry guys but Air Traffic Controllers display only one category of intelligence to any high degree, Spatial Reasoning.

Depending on which model of intelligence you use, there are eight different categories of intelligence, of which, it could be argued that Air Traffic Control requires three in particular... Spatial Reasoning, Mathematics and Language (English Comprehension). Spatial Reasoning is the only area that is tested, exercised and observed in application to a high level. Simple mathematics fast and accurate... we don't use any University level mathematics in the course of our duties. To be honest, a Year 10 school leaver could display the mathematics required for the job. English comprehension to a very basic level only... the job uses codified language to a great extent and the use of non-standard phraseologies is not permitted... isn't it? :E

[ferris]

Sorry, Quokka, I beg to differ. Your post may be tongue-in-cheek, but you address a point made by "wellconcerned"- a point I was going to ignore in order to starve the troll.
However, the ATC skill set is special, despite management's desires (generic ratings :rolleyes: ). You will have seen/met any number of spacial reasoners who couldn't do the job, any number of very intelligent individuals train who dont get a license? Maybe it's their inability to make decisions under pressure, to deal with stress, to deal with shift work, to deal with boredom, or to cope with the constant amount of bull$hit raining down on them from above. Whatever- the skill set required is a blend of intelligence/mindset/temperament etc. and is found in only a subset of 'spacial reasoners'.
Certainly, whilst most of the pressure in the job results from trying to be commercially expeditious, errors are life-threatening, whatever the likes of the "wellconcerned"s say.

[etz]

I must have slept through my Middle East security check.

[Plazbot]

Hahahaaha, Well Concerned is easily my favourite so far.

For those reading, you are aware he is AsA management? Appears that he may be jeopardising 'Good Faith Bargaining' here. Um Ah.

[Baileys]

Wellconcerned,

Speaking of the BOS Review...How can Airservices, as an organisation that claims that it recruits and promotes on merit, promote the person that had the incident that led to the BOS Review to 'front line' ATC Management . How can management have any credibility at all when things like this happen?

Explain that one.

[oziatc]

Quokka and Wellconcerned,
If the skill set for ATC's is not that special why does a world wide shortage of ATC's present a significant problem for all ANSP's?
If ATC's skills are so common why do ANSP's poach from one another?
Why are Aussie ATC's in particular so sought after?
Why is the pass rate so poor?
Why with all the facilities available to the Academy they cannot produce at least enough to cover the losses?

Having done a degree I can tell you the wealth of knowledge and skill set is not reproducible by a run of the mill uni course!
The knowledge part maybe because any person who can study can achieve a result. The development of the necessary skills and attributes are not!
We have had many A+ bookworms who have failed due to an inability to recognise patterns, adapt and come up with multiple solutions to a given problem. They aften are O.K. for routine traffic, but useless when things get complicated, busy or when handling unexpected emergencies!
Others bug out because they find it too stressful or can't handle the shift work!

I think the results of past recruiting speaks for itself!
We are not that common!

:ok:

[mikk_13]

wellconcerned, thanks for the advice. I'll tell you what..........

Luckily there will be another opening in Brissy center as i am heading to the fatherland for a bit, its a perfect oportunity for you to jump in my spot.
As you said, its not that hard and any monkey could do it, and our conditions are excellent. so go for it champ. Btw. don't expect to ever have a weekend off. Btw. expect to be called 4-5 times a day to come into work. Btw. don't expect to get rec leave when you want it. Btw. expect to sit in one spot and look at one screen for upto 3-4 hours in one stint because there isn't enough staff. Btw when you rock up to the college you can expect an early mark, you'll be escorted off the site by security when you fail like 75% of my course.

I'm sick of this sh!t and so i AM going.

Tschuss

[go-rownd]

If you are, as your post suggests, airline management: your first port-a-call in cost reduction could be with the overpaids in your (and other's) companies.

ATC's don't see the seats (your problem, load factors); they just stop them (aircraft) bumpin' into each other!

GR

[go-rownd]

Dwnce, dwnce, dwnce

[av8trflying]

With the going on's at ASA at present I thought it might be a good time to deliver my (stolen) new leadership training package to be delivered to all managers (think leadership workshop)

Cheers

http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/presentations/General_Colin_Powell_on_Leadership.pps (http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/presentations/General_Colin_Powell_on_Leadership.pps)

[oziatc]

av8trflying,
Good presentation! Very insightful!
Thanks

[dsham]

or the fact that the B#$tards got rid of the ping pong table! oh and the 12mil white elephant "cough" tower sim

[oziatc]

Ping pong table? You mean the one that has been there for decades?:ok:

Let me guess, it was an OH&S issue? (you might loose an eye :=) Distraction:bored:? Or was someone just been plain miserable?:(

[dsham]

yeah the same ping pong table...... that bouncing white ball was all that kept alot of us sane during our course there. I think it was either an OH&S issue or people were having too much fun, one of the two...... i'm not down with the nuts and bolts of the tower sim, but the problems used to be that the software was sh*t and it required a small squadron of blippies to run the thing as the voice recognition wasnt working.

[trueline]

Rec room that housed much lamented tennis table is now course 'classroom' due shortage of proper classrooms.
Popular Delivery Manager moved sideways (sacked) due to disagreements with psychopath boss.
His temporary replacement lasted a week and is now on sick leave.
That makes 5 good delivery managers who have been forced from/left while still sane in the last 18 months.
Tower/TMA course coordinator now a blippie as instructors doing it have been badly burned by said psychopath.
2 instructors leaving shortly due $50k payrise to do traffic.
Academy now truly dysfunctional.

[BN APP 125.6]

Iron Bar -

1st, there is no 'signing' (certification) until there is a vote.
2nd, there was no strike planned.

[oziatc]

To be absolutely correct, negotiations are not yet completed but expected to be by tomorrow evening.
Hopefully!

[dsham]

when that first pay rise is being converted to pints at the pub, then i'll believe it, until then, i am going to plan on the peanuts i get every second thursday being the same for the foreseeable future.

[Dick N. Cider]

Who's the mole in the negotiations?

[No Further Requirements]

So what is TFN going to say about the promised 100 new trainees per year through the Academy? Somehow I don't think it will happen. I believe the April course has been cancelled? Someone in the know care to speculate just how many people will a)start at the Academy and b)pass the course?

And why the hell do they call it the AsA Learning Academy? What the hell else do you do at an academy. Management w@nk words at their best.

Good luck to those instructors still there. And sorry to hear about the sideways moved delivery manager - top bloke who deserves much, much better.

Cheers,

NFR

[undervaluedATC]

Iron Bar at 2113: In related news..........

Agreement has been reached tonight and threatened industrial action appears to be off.You don't know what you're talking about.

On the Union website, an update from the president - at 0005 local said negotiation was still continuing.

[BN APP 125.6]

Iron Bar is a management stooge.

I can tell because the information is always wrong.

[Iron Bar]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[everyonefedup]

Don't worry everyone - TFN and CF have announced at senate estimates that with the 900+ controllers and 85% pass rate from the college they are now fully staffed.

hmmmm I have to say I am confused about those numbers.

But also - TFN is feeling very confident that everything will be settled soon!! Thank goodnesss... I was starting to feel concerned.

I don't know what is more sad... the fact that he can make it up as he goes along or the fact that the pollies don't bother to dig a little deeper on his figures to see the spin jockey underneath.

[dsham]

85% at the college is probably correct, on my course 9 out of 12 got through and on the previous course 12/12 got through. What he failed to mention was how many rated. that is another story... it really needs to be looked into, the disparity between the amount of people passing the college vs how many actually rate. Either the college does not prepare people enough or they are passing people who really shouldn't be passed so that TFN can say "we have an 85% pass rate", because in reality mate, you dont!

[everyonefedup]

THere is always some truth behind the figures - it is just the way the exec present them make them truly misleading. The way he said it in the senate certainly seemed like he was saying that 85% of trainees make it to be ATCs. CF piped up and said that there was "minor" attrition after the college but it was a pretty clear message that they had a very high success rate.

At the end of the day you can use figures to say whatever you need them to say - just pick the right figures to present and omit anything that seems to be in conflict.

A figure that can't be ignored is 94% of ATCs saying that they have had enough of the crap - and TFN has the nerve to front up to the senate and say that he is confident and that there will be no back down or cave in to the union. Does he get that it is his employees that have had enough? It is true TFN - running a company would be that much easier if it weren't for those damn employees doing the actual work.

[Howabout]

I read the transcript on the Senate site. I have always thought that McGauran was a useless dunce, but my opinion now places him lower than that. However, I don't know what descriptive is lower than useless.

For background, I'd prefer to take the opinion on here, because it obviously comes from the people on the front line, rather than the spin that's generated by your "corporate betters". It seems to be a house of cards, yet no one in the media, government or anywhere else seems to want to listen. If a dumb-bum like me can sift through some of the claims and counter-claims and come to the conclusion that these guys are seriously incompetent, why can't those with better access to information? I mean, what happens if a deal is sealed and the inevitable outages still continue? Does the spin department put it down to the continued militancy of the recalcitrant minority? Maybe they are working that line now.

[peuce]

I don't know what is more sad... the fact that he can make it up as he goes along or the fact that the pollies don't bother to dig a little deeper on his figures to see the spin jockey underneath.

They say that a Government (and therfore the Citizens) get what they deserve ...:{

[Nautilus Blue]

And why the hell do they call it the AsA Learning Academy?


Maybe I'm reading too much into it but I thought the change from Training Colledge to Learning Academy shifted the onus and any blame frimly onto the trainees.

Either that or the manager demanded a more impressive business card/job title?

NB

[BN APP 125.6]

WellConcerned.

Yes. You are correct.

That is all every ATC is getting. Spread your news far and wide.

Airservices win again. They should have big smiles on their dials.

:E Right?

[Iron Bar]

Hong kong? UAE? Germany? Ireland?:D

[dsham]

maastricht? Canada?

[undervaluedATC]

obviously WC prescriptions have all run out....

[BN APP 125.6]

I am biting my tongue.

This is kind of hilarious!

I will wait until the ink is dry before commenting further.

[Baileys]

It's always 4%...everytime. So I guess 4.1% would be a win.

[sunnySA]

992 service interruptions in 12 months. Not sure how many were PRM related but if there were 20 days PRM wasn't run because of insufficient ATC staff in Sydney then 20 days X $5million per day = $100million in direct additional costs to the airlines.

[Plazbot]

The first 10 years I was with ATC I saw maybe 1 or 3 service related Notams but the last 5 it has steadily grown and the last year has been a disgrace.

[westausatc]

Wasn't going to post but my curiousity got the better of me.....

Wasn't in yesterday (and not in today either!) so haven't heard the scuttlebutt... Anyone care to elaborate? Doesn't sound too promising....

[BN APP 125.6]

Might I suggest that anyone here who is a member of Civil Air read this announcement here (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_smf&Itemid=30&topic=1078.msg15461;topicseen#msg15461) today (please don't re-post it here) and consider carefully what you may also post on PPrune over the next couple of weeks.

Let the speculators speculate. For the rest of you, wait for the facts.

[westausatc]

Cheers big ears! Will keep waiting.... :ok:

[Here to Help]

oziatc his inflammatory, baiting posts were removed. I am sure that any future such posts will be too.

[Frink]

PRM wasn't run because of insufficient ATC staff in Sydney then 20 days X $5million per day = $100million in direct additional costs to the airlines.

That's a very good point, sunny. Not sure if it's as much as $5m/day but I'm guessing the flow on costs throughout the network on a PRM day are awfully high.

Despite rapidly increasing movements the staffing numbers in Sydney have been actively slashed by the local manager over the last three years, to the point where they can't even call people in to do PRM any more. My question is, what do the airline customers who are wearing the massive costs have to say about this particular issue?

[BN APP 125.6]

My personal belief is that the Airlines have been given promises by Airservices Australia that these issues will all be solved when the Controllers get a new Certified Agreement, and to just hold fast until then.

Makes you wonder why they have taken nearly a year to negotiate with any sense of urgency for starters.

But more importantly, what is the reaction going to be when the Airspace closures keep happening - UNTIL, they recruit, retain and properly remunerate sufficient staff?

We will probably lose a CEO and some senior managers over it, but that will not solve the underlying problem - especially if we go through a 12 month period of appointing a new CEO and waiting for his/her inevtiable 'review' & 'restructure'.

The airlines should be furious. Very.

[Here to Help]

ASA are now working furiously to minimise the total hours of TIBA so that when/if the CA gets finalised they desperately hope that the number of airspace closures reduce as well. This is to "prove" that the service disruptions and certified agreement are related. As has been shown in this thread, the service disruptions started in 2007 with the attempted implementation of SDE and the removal of operational controllers from the front line to make them managers. These managers are still counted in the total number of operational air traffic controllers which further disguises the problem. It is a stretch and a lie to say that controllers begun industrial action so long ago to force a favourable CA.

They are targetting individual controllers and groups on sick leave usage and implementing restrictive/fatiguing rosters. Funny how they do it now and not before.

They are specifically targetting TIBAs that occur when a single-person night shift cannot be replaced. Along the east coast such night closures, up to 7hrs long, are relatively benign compared to, say, a 1 hour TIBA in the afternoon in the same areas (these have been quite nasty and surrounding sectors sometimes need staff called in to take the diverting aircraft. ASA seem to be interested in only reducing the hourly total of TIBAs and not the severity. Expect to see some hourly figures bandied about.

And remember, it's not just the TIBAs. Everytime you see a NOTAM indicating delays and restrictions, the controller involved is usually working on his/her own for a prolonged period with no break, and surrounding sectors need to handle the unusual and conflicting traffic as it diverts around the affected airspace to reduce the workload.

It is well known that if an overtime ban took place in ATC re the current CA negotiations, the amount of TIBA/reduced services would skyrocket and expose the myth ASA have been pushing about no staff shortage.

If the CA goes ahead, and TIBAs concurrently reduce because of belated ASA action, the management and the CEO will have gone a long way to saving their skins.

[BN APP 125.6]

If the CA goes ahead, and TIBAs concurrently reduce because of belated ASA action, the management and the CEO will have gone a long way to saving their skins.

That is very big if - as the two issues are in no way related.

However, I have little doubt there will be some spin to suggest otherwise.

If Industrial Action in it's simplest form - an overtime withdrawal - occurred, the ramifications would be enormous. Such is the parlous state that the staffing has been let deteriorate to. Overtime is the permanent band-aid. And it is starting to get a bit smelly.

[Well Concerned]

It seems I may have 'upset' some sensitive readers.

The fact is, this thread has been mainly related to the current EBA negotiation with Airservices.

All I was trying to point out was that Airservices' controllers have effectively fallen into an Airservices management trap (no doubt aided by the Minister's spin men).

You have been offered - and no doubt will be tempted to accept - a 4.1% pay rise.

If you amortise this over the 53 months of the agreement period - that is, the next 3 years - PLUS the last 17 months - you will receive a nett 2.78% (remember - NO retrospectivity).

This is less than the cost of living, and way below the government's limit of 3.2%.

Don't you think Airservices' management - and the government - will be laughing all the way to the bank?

The moderator may choose to ban me again - BUT you guys need to see that an agreement that gives you less than CPI is WAY less than satisfactory - espacially given the grief you've gone though to get to this point.

[BN APP 125.6]

OK Mate I will bite.

What would you suggest?

And what is your vested interest in the outcome?

[Baileys]

I think he makes a fair point....what's the drama.

[Here to Help]

WC, although this thread has become a general Australian ATC thread, it is primarily about the staff shortage and its effect on industry.

You were not banned - your posts with huge font sizes and goading manner were deleted.

Why do you pretend to know the CA offer before any official word has come out? Are you prepared to stand by your figures if/when they are shown to be incorrect? Is it your intention to stir up trouble?

[undervaluedATC]

actually, Well concerned may have been banned - he(?) was on my ignore list, but now I can see his posts - and I notice his post count has been reset.

and what HereToHelp is saying about AsA trying to minimise the TIBA with new rosters is true - one group in particular has been changed to an "on-call" nights type roster to try to avoid TIBA - since AsA could have done this months ago - the timing is especially suspicious.

[towerboy]

WC's post 898 is a blatant attack on the ATC profession. WC denegrades ATC's without question (read it again). WC has since gone "the nice cop", and is concerned about our negotiation outcomes?

F*CK OFF WC, in my opinion you are a (current-former) manager, or an outsider who doesn't deserve a responce. Being 2-faced is your job,...explain that to your children, and your family and frienda
!

[oziatc]

Lets not have this thread degenerate into a farce.
We need to keep to topic. If WC wants to post let him!
He's been put on notice and others are wary.
There is no reason he can't contribute positively to the discussion.
Lets not get into a hate session!

[peuce]

Re the connection between a successful CA outcome and less TIBA ...

if I was in the Union negotiating team, I would argue for the inclusion of a clause in the agreement that prohibited any future "link between CA negotiations and TIBA" ... or, at a minimum, a "joint communique" stating lovey dovey stuff like .. " now that the CA is finalised, both parties will be working together to explore ways of reducing airspace closures "

[Here to Help]

Civil Air's "Vision Document" was presented as a solution to the staff shortage. One of its aims was to increase attraction for appropriate recruits and retain staff by remunerating competitively with the rest of the world and making it more attractive to stay for pending (highly experienced) retirees.

Airservices solution to the problem is to renege on a previous letter of committment over rostering practices, make liberal interpretations of the currently (expired) CA over shift lengths and standby rosters, exploit a computer based fatigue management system and more. This has resulted in fatiguing rosters which has everything to do with minimising quality of life outside of work and maximising "business continuity". Even then they are only interested in minimising the hours of interruptions and not the severity.

They also attempted to bypass the CA process and go to the IRC to make it obligatory for ATCs come in on their days off, to explain why if not, and to be contactable without technically being on call.

I doubt a joint statement about working together to solve the staff shortage will be made. ASA wil definitely say something like "now we can get on with it". They have been the cause and obfuscators, and should not be aloowed to get away with it.

[Plazbot]

You have been offered - and no doubt will be tempted to accept - a 4.1% pay rise.

You sure about that?

[everyonefedup]

here to help - have to agree with you. It is a bit hard to swallow that TFN and his corporate affairs types have been proliferating mistruths about our professionalism as well as the causes for the staffing problems - now that things get a bit tough there is a rapid move to hold hands and work together. Where was that approach last year?

Trust is something that doesn't get switched on - it is supposed to get built over time and TFN has had four years.

[Hempy]

LOL don't get worked up about WC, go back through his posts and have a look at the incongruities/inconsistencies. Basically, the guy is a liar, troller and spammer who doesn't seem to be able to get his story straight week after week. I don't think he is ASA management at all, (although he tells us he's worked in every exotic location on earth with twr, app and enr ratings, yet is not an atc, but is a pilot, who doesnt fly anymore....), just at best a failed ATC trainee, and probably just a 'Walt' with serious personal issues. Can use Google though :ok:.

[Well Concerned]

Hempy,

Yeah, guess I've been sprung!

I do do a lot of reading though - and have seen ALL the ATC type movies - would LOVE to be a real air traffic controller like the Pushing Tin guys - so cool.

Guess I'll just have to content myself with sitting in row 25F every week.

Sorry to have annoyed so many of you.

[Starts with P]

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey 'Peuce'.......

"if I was in the Union negotiating team, I would argue for the inclusion of a clause in the agreement" .......which says that......

'The provisions of this EBA shall remain in place until the provisions of the next EBA are agreed to by all parties'.......

Has saved an awful lot of grief for us 'smellies'.............it worked a treat!!!
= WE WON!
But, I'm quite sure you know all about that......maaate...:oh:

Think about it.....please.....:ok::ok:

[Plazbot]

That is how EBAs work Griffo anyway:rolleyes:

[undervaluedATC]

actually Plazbot, I'm pretty sure that at one stage AsA was trying to slip some clause in that said all the conditions expire with the nominal expiry date of the EBA. -

Another case of "trust us" :rolleyes:

with their form - as if.

[Plazbot]

Which is what I said. The clauses continue after the expiration.

Griffo, it is not 1997 anymore.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Yep! T'ain't '97 anymore....and this ain't Kansas anymore...wasn't that in the movie?

I may stand to be corrected, but even in 'those' days we had to be 'doubly sure' of the interpretation of some clauses, and I was under the distinct impression that CPSU had inserted this particular said clause, as the 'management' of the times was not exactly ....'up front',...shall we say??

However, if you have the same protection now, that's GREAT!!

And, not forgetting, 5 times we had to take 'them' to the IRC over disputed 'EBA issues' , and 5 times we won!
And all the while, no changes could be made which would have been detrimental to us,, simply because of that wunnerful l'il clause...

Cheers:ok::ok:

But this ain't '97 anymore............. I just happen to think we were better organised and thought more about the long term issues then.....:eek:

[Plazbot]

You do stand corected, again.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Sorry Plaz....
two stations in together.....

O.K.......

[BN APP 125.6]

I don't think we were better organised then ('97).

We didn't have WorkChoices to contend with either. Which has meant is entirely harder to organise without ending up getting fined, or dragged to the AIRC every 5 minutes.

[go-rownd]

Can anyone enlighten me as the current hierachical structure at this institution??

Does one need an aviation background to manage the staff??

GR

[everyonefedup]

In the past; the majority of the ATC training college would be people with an ATC background.

These days they have determined that you don't actually need to know anything about the ATC world in order to be involved in the college - er - academy.

In other words - the less the people in the academy actually know about aviation the more academic the students become. In fact many things have become academic lately...

[Slugfest]

Dirt doing the rounds is that Civil Air and ASA have reached a deal and a travelling dog and pony show is moving around the country to sell it to members starting in YBCS on 16 March.

any gos?

[Baileys]

That would be right. Those Canberra types love wasting money flying around the country when an email would do.

[BN APP 125.6]

Not sure that ASA will be selling it anymore.

Details still not confirmed yet anyway.

Patience.

[go-rownd]

Dear Chris(t). wassa drothy dixer to a sud afrikaans??

[Robbovic]

Interesting story doing the rounds here in Mexico is that the Learning Academy has basically failed a CASA audit on a number of grounds (5, if any credance can be given to the source involved). Story also goes that the bank manager has denied anything wrong and full steam ahead.

Will be interesting to see if CASA has grown a set recently and backs up its threat to close the place down if the (denied) deficiencies are not corrected.

If this is not hyperbole (or complete bollocks), then this could be fun! There goes TFNs promised 100 new controllers this year.

[undervaluedATC]

Robbovic:There goes TFNs promised 100 new controllers this year.Actually, the consumate politician that TFN is - he has only promised to TRAIN 100 controllers - not to provide 100 in the field each year.

But I agree, it will certainly make it harder to solve our staffing problem. Which why I doubt CASA will do anything more about the defiencies than identify them.

[Howabout]

UVATC, that is a very nice distinction (the original meaning of nice) with regard to "training" and "providing". You may be potential CEO material, given the astuteness of your observation!

While I side with the sympathies expressed here, I hope that the rumour is not fact. If the recent rate of reduced services and TIBA are anything to go by, we don't need your training institution going wheels-up, regardless of the alleged "toxic relationship" between the line and management. It's just going to make your job harder if you don't get the required replacements coming on line.

[wolf_wolf]

Perhaps ASA should just follow it's own latest staffing trends and sub-contract it's piss poor 'Academy' out to DFS in Frankfurt...

Lot's of ICAO level 6 english speaking instructors there now - and some with particularly good aussie accents...

[BN APP 125.6]

Another nice 'achievement' for a certain someone's CV.

Now, what else is there left to screw up before he gets the flip?

[concernaviat]

RFCs? NCAs?

[undervaluedATC]

Howabout: UVATC, that is a very nice distinction (the original meaning of nice) with regard to "training" and "providing". You may be potential CEO material, given the astuteness of your observation!Me? - a potential CEO? I don't know if I've just been insulted :rolleyes:, but in my opinion it would certainly be a good thing if the CEO of AsA had at some stage in their career actually done some ATC - that way they might remember what our core business actually is! :=

concernaviat RFCs? NCAs?The post that had these abbreviations has been removed, so I may be using the wrong definitions (in TAAATS, it is not unusual for identical abbreviations to mean different things, depending on context), but normally:
RFC = "Request for Change" - which is usually raised by someone who has identified that there is a safer/more effecient/more standardised/MATs compliant way of doing an existing thing

Not working at the college, I'm not going to guess at what NCA stands for. Anybody else want to help with this?

[aerodyne47]

Dear Dorothy Dix was a newspaper column in one of the Sydney afternoon dailies , or maybe the Womens Weekly, at least in the 50s and 60s, where one could seek advice on matters usually of a personal nature.

It was apparent that many (all) of the questions were also written by the newspaper staff rather than readers Hence the term has been adopted to refer to questions designed to facilititate a prepared response.

Wiki says

"Dorothy Dix (November 18, 1861 – December 16, 1951), was the pseudonym of U.S. journalist Elizabeth Meriwether Gilmer.

As the forerunner of today's popular advice columnists, Dorothy Dix was America's highest paid and most widely read female journalist at the time of her death. Her advice on love and marriage was syndicated in newspapers around the world. With an estimated audience of 60 million readers, she became a popular and recognized figure on her travels abroad.

Her name is the origin of the term Dorothy Dixer, a widely-used phrase in Australia meaning a question from the floor that enables the speaker to make or strengthen a point he wanted to get across, especially in Parliament."

(My usename betrays my age)

[sunnySA]

concernaviat asked "RFCs? NCAs?"

RFC and NCA = terms used in auditing.

Whilst not specifically referenced in this document http://http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/1998casr/143/143casr.pdf (http://http://www.casa.gov.au/rules/1998casr/143/143casr.pdf)
it does make interesting reading.

Perhaps this section has most relevance.

143.065 Personnel
An ATS training provider must have, at all times, enough suitably
qualified personnel to enable it to provide, in accordance with both
the Australian Quality Training Framework and the standards and
requirements set out in the Manual of Standards – Part 65, the training
relating to air traffic services that is covered by its approval.

Have too many ASA bureaucrats focused on the $ rather than simply providing a safe National Airways System?

[topdrop]

It's RCA - Request for corrective Action, nah probably Requirement for Corrective Action.

[Plazbot]

One Thousand replies and no CA signed as yet :rolleyes:

[WELLCONCERNED]

I’m back!

For the benefit of the moderator, who impolitely [I have forwarded a complaint to Danny] called me a ‘troll’, I offer the following:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/John_Bauer_1915.jpg/256px-John_Bauer_1915.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:John_Bauer_1915.jpg)
A troll is a fearsome member of a race of creatures from Norse mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology). Originally more or less the Nordic equivalents of giants (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giant_(mythology)), although often smaller in size, the different depictions have come to range from the fiendish giants – similar to the ogres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogre) of England (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England) – to a devious, more human-like folk of the wilderness, living underground in hills, caves or mounds.

[Obi von Kenobi]

This little one's not worth the effort

[Here to Help]

Tobzalp, to be fair this thread has been about the staff shortage and not specifically about the CA.

And on that subject, Jason Harfield, the current General Manager of ATC said last year in the Waypoint presentation (Airservices Australia - Projects & Services - Industry Forums - Waypoint 2008 (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projectsservices/industryforums/waypoint/2008)) (around the same time as this thread started):

To those who link the current Certified Agreement negotiations with service interruptions I would simply say that the suggestion is offensive to the controller workforce at large. There is currently no evidence that our service interruptions are industrially based. I do not believe that the overwhelming majority of Airservices ATCs would lie down on the job for any reason or endorse this activity amongst their peers. Nor do I believe they would deliberately take covert action that increases the risk to aircrew and the travelling public – the very antithesis to the core of their profession – that is - keeping the airways safe!

[thewaxismelting]

H2H, I'm not sure exactly what point you are trying to make, but I know exactly why JH made such a statement in front of industry players. It is a common political tactic to spread innuendo/untruths by restating them in a public forum with the disclaimer that "others" are saying it -not me. It's about as genuine as saying "with all due respect" then launching into a tirade where obviously no respect is due.

[peuce]

From Wikipedia:

" An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]..."

[Here to Help]

thewaxismelting,
It has been a long held stance of ASA to say that the service interruptions are due to controllers wanting to secure a better deal in the Certified Agreement negotiations. ASA has shown graphs to industry and government "proving" that for the last 2 CAs there has been a spike in interruptions, and that after the agreements were signed, the interruptions decrease.

ASA, and the CEO in particular, have drawn a very long bow in saying that controllers started this action in November 2007 for an agreement that expires over a year later in Dec 2008 (which still isn't signed).

I agree, Jason Harfield's quote is a platitude for industry's sake. I quoted it because it stands in contrast to statements made by the CEO Greg Russell.

The CA has been a smoke screen for ASA's lack of planning/foresight, ignorance of warnings by Civil Air, and reckless decimation of training and resources.

[Hempy]

I told you he could Google :ok:

[WELLCONCERNED]

You're soooo right, Mr Hemp.

I actually do know what an 'internet troll' is - I'm not totally stooopid. I just wanted to find out which alias the moderator was using in 'normal transmissions' - now I know.

You guys really do need to watch your backs - with 1000 posts and so few participants, it's quite easy to look back through roster lines and find out who was on/off duty, and narrow down the possible contributors - especially when they know that most of you come/came from a relatively small group of sectors in ML.

I know Airservices has people on the task [not a rumour or fishing trip this time].

Be careful.

[everyonefedup]

You're right - they do have people tasked with finding out who the PPruners are... it is a poor reflection on an organisation that feels they need to shut employees up instead of listen to them. But this has been the approach all along - either people agree or you get rid of them. This approach has left us with the most appalling group of GMs in the organisations history. GMs are people that manage to tell Greg what he wants to hear and hide the rest... not a good way for a place to be run.

[Plazbot]

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

[Baileys]

"they do have people tasked with finding out who the PPruners are"

I just don't believe that the above statement would be true.

[RAAFASA]

Baileys, I went to a homeopath recently who told me that the scar on my arm from a TB booster was actually a microchip planted by the govt.:eek: So why not admin staff trying to identify PPruners? We're such a seditious lot, after all.;)

Post away people. I'd love to see the damages payout for the first "sacked due to Ppruning" law suit. Pesky little free speech thing and all....

[BN APP 125.6]

Cripes - that bloke is really twisted. Get a hobby mate! Just make sure it has nothing to with Airplanes will ya!

[Hempy]

You guys really do need to watch your backs - with 1000 posts and so few participants, it's quite easy to look back through roster lines and find out who was on/off duty, and narrow down the possible contributors - especially when they know that most of you come/came from a relatively small group of sectors in ML.


lol given that at least 4 people I know have access to my log-on details, good luck with that :rolleyes:

On topic, was asked today whether I thought ASA had come out in front or behind with the 'global recruitment drive' numbers wise. Has anyone compared departures to arrivals?

[Baileys]

I'd be more inclined to believe the microchip thing that the pprune one.

[thewaxismelting]

H2H, thanks for the explanation. Agree totally with all said.

[undervaluedATC]

WC: I've always assumed with the NetNanny software and other key-logger type background programs that AsA has on the work computers, they already know who I am. Big Deal. As others have pointed out - free speech. And I've been pretty careful to avoid direct libel accusations.

Back on track, for those who are interested, TFN estimates that once the government gives it's okay, the current EBA offer could be put to the vote sometime in mid-April.

[Plazbot]

My real name is Bert Forster.

[TrafficTraffic]

At least I know where to come when I need a bush lawyer...

TT

[Steve Sydney]

My real name is Bert Snorkel!!!
The doggo did it!!!

[welcome_stranger]

I am Spartacus

[Robbovic]

Real name - Tyler Durden

"How much can you know about yourself if you've never been in a fight?"

[Plazbot]

Actually, I changed my mind, I am the Stig.

[go-rownd]

... but that doesn't mean they're not out to get me!

[everyonefedup]

It isn't about sacking people for using PPrune. I think it is more about knowing where the ppruners are and then seeing if it matches any other patterns in work behaviour (say for example sick leave) and then fabricating a "renegade" story for the press.

[undervaluedATC]

everyonefedup:It isn't about sacking people for using PPRuNe. I think it is more about knowing where the ppruners are and then seeing if it matches any other patterns in work behaviour (say for example sick leave) and then fabricating a "renegade" story for the press.Then I've got nothing to worry about :rolleyes: I have'nt had a sick day for at least 8 months - obviously I love the place too much. :confused: Is it just me, or are the days to the vote for the EBA dragging out?

Also, anyone got any more info/rumour about the academy and the CASA review?

[Starts with P]

I don't think that I have ever been too sick that I could not read, nor find the required motor skills to use a keyboard.

I would find it hard to imagine any employer being able to fire someone because they called in sick, but managed to post on PPRUNE.

[Here to Help]

I don't think that I have ever been too sick that I could not read, nor find the required motor skills to use a keyboard.


Careful! Some might think that that makes you fit for duty!!

[Robbovic]

UVATC
Deathly quiet on the academy front, although, in the best journalistic tradition, I have had the story confirmed from a completely separate independent source.

For those feeling paranoid, sometimes that simply means that you are in possession of all the facts!!

[everyonefedup]

CA is dragging a bit - but at least ASA is actually at the table now unlike the last few months.

[WELLCONCERNED]

OK, OK,

At the risk of being banned again....

...I said that your 'negotiated' pay rise was 4.1% for 3 years.

I said that as you'd already waited over a year the actual annualised payrise you'd get would be 2.78% [36 months of the new agreement, plus 17 months since the end of the last agreement].

Every month Airservices delays is costing you. If you accept the agreement right NOW, you'll have accepted a nett pay rise of 2.68% [based on 19 months since the end of the last agreement].

If you factor that it will take AT LEAST 12 months from the end of this new agreement to get another agreement, you'll effectively be selling your souls for a 2.2% pay rise!. [sorry Mr Moderator, sir - needed to emphasise the scale of the problem].

Are you sure your representatives are doing you any favours?

You could have got 3% from management without any fight what so ever.

If you really want 4% or more, you need to reject whatever is being negotiated now and stick to your guns and FIGHT for a JUST outcome.

2.2% - Airservices' management, Airservices' Board, and the Government are laughing all the way to the bank.

Don't shoot the messenger [I have enough of your arrows] - THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE OFFERING YOU - and act accordingly!!

[dsham]

seriously, why do you care? you dont see us on the garbo's forum giving them pay advice

[WELLCONCERNED]

If you knew who I really was and where I really worked you'd stop posting stupid and irrelevant comments.

Read the content - don't shoot the messenger!

[Plazbot]

I am still wondering where you get your figures. Additionally, you have again played a hand that shows a little more accurately who you are. You are obviously unaware of detail and exactly where the pay changes kick in from. In principle agreement is a term I will set you aoof to research. They call you a troll, I call you uneducated.

Rgds

The Stig.

[5miles]

If you knew who I really was and where I really worked you'd stop posting stupid and irrelevant comments.

We know where you work - Chad. Or is that another management misrepresentation?

As for me, I am Roger Kint .... or am I?

[Here to Help]

The "offer" is not yet publicly known. It cannot be presented until it has been through due process with the Government. WC is either trolling for some details or he is trying to incite some kind of statement that the media and ASA have used, from this forum, to "demonstrate" illegal industrial action.

Inciting members of this forum who are Civil Air members to
reject whatever is being negotiated now and stick to your guns and FIGHT for a JUST outcome.

and
THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE OFFERING YOU - and act accordingly!!

before the offer can be detailed and made public is pretty irresponsible.

(and BTW WC, don't be so dramatic - you weren't banned, your posts were removed).

[ferris]

Are the figures this idiot is using accurate (in terms of the percentage payrise?). ie there is an agreement to put to the members? (I understand there are roadshows planned, so I assume there are hard numbers).

WC
If you knew who I really was and where I really worked you'd stop posting stupid and irrelevant comments. Unless you out yourself, it's pretty stupid and irrelevant to ask people to stop posting based on information they cant know.

[Here to Help]

ferris,

There are hard numbers and yes roadshows are scheduled. If WC had real numbers, he would reveal them. He doesn't. He is just stirring.

[Polymorph]

I very much doubt if Wellconcerned is management in AsA.
I would suggest there is another agenda here.
A journalist seeking a scoop maybe?

Wellconcerned it's time you stated your real interest in this issue.

[ferris]

HtoH. WC IS posting numbers. Just wanted to confirm they are NOT real. For those of us overseas, there is no way to know.

Trusted posters have confirmed that WC is full of it. Numbers publicly available shortly (for better or worse).

[dsham]

stupid and irrelevant? is that the pot calling the kettle black. Unless you are an air traffic controller or from the union then these pay negotiations have nothing to do with you. we don't need your bulls$%t comments

[man on the ground]

If you knew who I really was and where I really worked you'd stop posting stupid and irrelevant comments.

Well concerned - but very uninformed - as usual with your posts on previous "ASA internal" threads! :ok:

You really should get an agent - why sit in the dark, handling yourself ? :E

[Hempy]

http://remiq.net/static/img/remiq.net_5701.jpg

[everyonefedup]

WC - why don't you tell us all who you are since you are so very important. It is clear that you don't have any understanding of ASA or negotiating agreements or general principles of logic. So that would make you a newspaper journalist wouldn't it?

[Baileys]

The way you all react to him makes me think that maybe the numbers quoted are in the ballpark and everyone is just very annoyed that he might just be right.

I hope not.

[tail wheel]

This thread is at risk of being closed.

That may be the intent of some users posts?

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

May I suggest that if you disagree with another user's posted opinion, you move on and ignore that post?

[Hempy]

Baileys,

Those who know what the real numbers are would like them to remain 'in camera' until the thing is signed, which is what is happening. The Walt (WC), is for reasons known only to him, trying to bait those that know into blurting the real numbers out (unsuccessfully). People are reacting to him because he is TROLLING THIS FORUM TRYING TO ELICIT A RESPONSE. Which brings me to my next point....

Tailwheel, instead of threatening to close the thread, which would no doubt be both the simple solution and a great sop for the troller, how about you actually MODERATE? I dont understand how one individual with questionable ethics can't simply be removed from the conversation that he (?) has chosen to sour. Read his posts.

[WELLCONCERNED]

Hempy and others,

Remember above all - this is a RUMOUR network - i.e., Professional Pilot RUmourNEtwork - [even though the site is now actually owned by a comercial entity (that sells cars, as I recall)].

What does it matter if my 'rumour' about 4.1% is wrong and the 'actual' rise is 4.0% or 4.2% - the fact remains that controllers - once again - are being screwed by their union/association - and the delegates - MANY of whom are represented on this forum [and I know EXACTLY who you are bur will not reveal who you are] - are hell bent on not upsetting the apple cart with so-called 'spurious' claims about the fact that the agreement will be diluted significantly by the 'fact of time'.

What I'm trying to say to the lay controllers is that even if you are offered 4.0%, 4.1% or even 4,2%, your NET rise, taking into account the hiatus of the last 18 months - and the likely repeat performance of these less than competent reps at the end of the new agreement - will be [much] less tha 3%. You could have got that without CivilAir!

When you go to the dog and pony show, look the AsA guys in the eye, and see if there's just the hint of a smirk there - they KNOW that they've beaten you.

Don't shoot me - I'm just trying to get you to see that every time you 'negotiate' with AsA - you lose some small part of your rights and conditions. Were you working 'compulsory overtime' 6 years ago - no. Were you paid an 'all-in' salary 15 years ago - no. Did you have regular 2/3 day weekends off 9 years ago - yes. Every time you go into EBA negotiations - you think you win - but in fact, you lose.

OK, OK - you think I'm fishing - go ahead and think that - BUT do think about what they're going to tell you in the roadshow - and watch for signs of a 'behind the scenes' deal between your 'reps' and AsA and the Government.

[TrafficTraffic]

Posted by Hempy 1st March 2008

The hypocrisy actually made me laugh out loud.

TT
:rolleyes:

[BN APP 125.6]

I will say it again:

Wait for the roadshow, ask your delegate about your individual position with this proposed offer.

Well Concerned has no idea who anybody here is.

He is trolling to find out the details of the offer because he doesn't know, and/or wants to undermine the process.

Ask yourself why that is?

So far, everybody has seen he is a troll and has not reacted.

'The Union' (which is it's members) has not 'sold out' as is being implied by the ignorant Well Concerned. It has negotiated the best possible outcome, and now the membership will vote on it one way or the other.

Stooges however will not have a say in it.

[Hempy]

TT, laughter is good for you.

what makes you think in this time of EXTREME financial crisis that you need a pay rise anyway?

Take the 4% and be happy - and do the job you've been trained and paid to do!!!

We thank you for your concern about our CA. I am not even going to question why you seem to have flip-flopped (perhaps the figure 94% rings a bell?). We also thank you for your concern over our employment, but if you are management, who do you consider would have the better job security at the moment? You're only one 'restructure' away, so perhaps your energies would be better spent a little closer to home....

[Sunfish]

Mr. WC reminds me exactly of the trolls that appeared on the QF Engineers thread during their industrial negotiations. Their purpose was to spread Fear Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD - it's a computer marketing term).

Mr. WC has made Two allegations:

1: AsA is actively trying to find out which of it's staff post on Pprune. This may or may not be true, but the effect of the allegation is "chilling" in the legal sense of perhaps inhibiting AsA staff from joining debate on Pprune through non specific threats of future retribution.

2. Controllers will lose by not accepting whatever the current offer is when it is revealed. This is coupled with an allegation that your representatives are stalling the negotiations for their own purposes. This is designed to divide representatives from those they represent if possible.

Frankly, were I a moderator, I would have thought #1 is grounds for permanent banning.

[everyonefedup]

Speaking of restructures - how long will it take for another major sweep of the GM ranks? TFN can't be happy about having to go in and negotiate the CA himself after spending so much time and money on his supersized CA netotiating team.... and now the problems with the college. CF seems a sure bet to be ousted - what I want is a real HR team again. Instead of sitting in the ivory tower looking after managers they should put HR back in the centres.

My argument is this - we want to retain staff because of the staff shortage, we want staffing issues dealt with quickly and realistically and we want the service areas of the organisation to provide a service to the people performing the core work (making the money).

I had a HR issue a few weeks ago and called the number and was told to talk to my manager.... who had told me to call the number to begin with. Real helpful guys.

[C-change]

1: AsA is actively trying to find out which of it's staff post on Pprune


There are other organisations who have done this already and staff were warned that if it occurred again they would be given their "marching orders".

Why do some many of you care about WC's comments and get upset by them. This person may, or may not be a troll but who cares!

Back to the original thread topic, what is being done to overcome the staff shortages?
That subject appears to have disappered along the way.

[Here to Help]

That subject appears to have disappered along the way.

The staff shortage continues. Below are areas NOTAMed either TIBA or delays/restrictions due non-availability of staff from this month so far (from www.civilair.asn.au ):
8 March - Melbourne Airport
8 March - Sydney Airport
7 March - Melbourne Airport
7 March - Perth Airport
7 March - Sydney Airport
6 March - Central West Australia
6 March - Southern West Australia
5 March - Western Victoria
5 March - Mid West NSW
5 March - Tasmania
3 March - Sydney Airport
3 March - East of Perth
3 March - Exmouth Gulf Area
3 March - South West WA
3 March - Central West Australia
2 March - Mid West NSW
2 March - Western Victoria / South West NSW
2 March - Tasmania
2 March - Southern West Australia
2 March - Central West Australia
1 March - Northern NSW
1 March - Perth Airport
1 March - Sydney Arrivals North

[blind freddy]

Wellconcerned,

We know you are bitter because you sold your soul to the AWA devil.

Now you are going to watch the controllers in the centre get a good payrise, and keep their conditions, while you gave everything up for the dollars which have failed to increase significantly. Enjoying all the unpaid overtime??

Soon the decent people that actually do work, rather than sit at the front desk bitching, will be better off than you.

No sympathy.

[Hempy]

A little birdie told me today that there was an attempt to have the Operational Sim reduced from 3 shifts to 2 to save on paying blippies for weekends (i.e off composite salary). When will ASA realise that half the reason they are in this mess is because they axed the training section in the first place...:ugh::rolleyes:

[Here to Help]

Civil Air members check the Civil Air forum for an update...

[cbradio]

thanks for the advice WC, I just hope its better than this pearl you gave us last year -


WC - If you were smart, you'd pool with your friends, put in $10,000 each, and buy a 50,000 gallon tank of petrol now [yes, it is possible to do - and your local service station can make arrangements]. It's the equivalent of fuel hedging, and you'll save a small fortune - and you'll be driving when others can't.

what was petrol then - about $1.50 a litre?

Maybe you are with ASA. :ok:

[West Coast Services]

Blind Freddy....

I believe that Well Concerned is from ML. I will leave you all to ponder

[blind freddy]

First day of the ATC CA roadshow. Cairns first up.
Anyone able to give some feedback as to how it all goes?

[TrafficTraffic]

Anyone able to give some feedback as to how it all goes?



...South from Cairns I believe.....

[ICAO-Delta]

How many of these warning indicators apply to the CEO and Board/Management of Airservices? Any one of them is regarded as an investment disincentive.

Poor track record?
Excessive pay?
Too much jargon?
Small shareholdings?
Too many external activities?
Over-emphasising the short term?
Evasiveness and covering up mistakes?
Telling the market what it wants to hear?
Saying one thing and doing another?
Talking up the share price?
External appointments to senior positions?
Expansion for the sake of it?

[cattledog]

So what does 10/12 add up to.
They would have got a perfect score but there are no shares to go around !!!!
Perhaps if you count 3 and 8 twice (masters of this) then 12/12 it is.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: (ouch)

[JackoSchitt]

AEC announced the CPSU vote on protected industrial action today and

:D:D:D96.7% VOTED YES:D:D:D

Techs are loaded for bear and ready to rumble
Admin are livid at rumoured comments from Fort Fumble
Ausfic are making holiday bookings for the forthcoming 2 days off

I have never seen this amount of agro before......kinda makes complete farce of the "better way of doing things" don't you think?:yuk::yuk::yuk:

[Plazbot]

About now is probably the time those above parts of the organisation wish they did not run scared 2 EBAs ago and vote to split and go it alone after the number 1 sticking point was 1 agreement V 5 and ATC took the pain.:=

[Jamitupyr]

Plaz,

Not that it matters much for today's vote, - but my recollection of 2 EBAs back (i.e 2002) was that all parties were ready to do one agreement including Civilair, and then at the last moment, Civilair felt they could not go ahead and said to the other unions, "Don't let us stop you from doing a deal now if you wish and your ready." It was on that basis (that of Civilair leaving the collective) that we ended up with multiple agreements.

'Tis a bid odd now, that apart from ARFF, Civilair seems willing to do its deal with AA prior to the other unions being ready. The only thing is.... What are the details of such deal????

To my mind, CPSU, CEPU, APESMA etc should exercise their rights (ie. action) to get what is due. I understand that TAS and AusFIC in particular have some very strongly felt issues on conditions - yes conditions and money is not the show stopper so far - but absolute intransigence from the Management. This vote was just so predictable.

[Frink]

I think perhaps you may not have had a full grasp on the situation a few years back, Jamitupyr, or else your recollection has been clouded with the passage of time.

As someone who was involved, I recall distinctly the incredible lengths Civil Air went to trying to retain strength and unity in seeking one agreement. It was most definitely the other unions who felt they could and should 'go it alone' and left Civil Air in the lurch. Of course that decision was a no-brainer when they were able to get the caveat in their agreements that if Civil Air did better than them on any aspects, that they would subsequently get the improved conditions too. I wonder if that is why you are interested in the details of the Civil Air agreement this time around?

That said, 97% is a great result for the CPSU and I hope they get exactly what they deserve.

[everyonefedup]

I had a look at the Fire fighters aviation union page and they have their draft CA up there. I am not half suprised the union has agreed to it since it is such a roll over by ASA... the managers must have really wanted it to go through since they can't get the other agreements together. The grievance procedure has stayed, the consultation clause looks pretty similar... the few "wins" that ASA have look pretty token to me. For example - they have gotten rid of sick leave as required and replaced it with 180 hours (18 - 22 days )per annum plus if you don't have any leave they can advance it to you plus if you are sick for more than 28 days they will give you sick leave without it coming off your sick leave balance... so it is pretty much sick leave as required but they have just changed the words around...

So it looks OK - ... but the fundamental problem with these types of deals is that it relies on the organisation acting in an honest and faithful way even after the agreement has been signed off... call me skeptical but I just can't see this team of bright sparks actually making decisions in line with the spirit of the agreement without being dragged in front of the comission every five seconds. How many times have we seen a promise been broken? I don't know... I wish the fire fighters the best and hope that ASA lives up to expectations but I would rather everything go into the agreement and nothing is left up to management discretion... at least I know what I will be getting.

[Plazbot]

'Tis a bid odd now, that apart from ARFF, Civilair seems willing to do its deal with AA prior to the other unions being ready.

As pointed out above, your recollection is quite a way from what actually happened. There was no possibility of Civil Air doing anything alone as at that time there was only 1 Certified Agreement that covered the 5 that now exist. This was the major sticking point of the entire negotiation as Airservices wanted to split the 1 into 5 and therefore weaken the bargaining strength of the entire workforce (whoopsie). Airservices then put the 5 to a vote and the only one not voted in was the ATC agreement. This meant that the 4 other areas decided that they would go for a quick win of a few months of pay rises and thumb their nose at the protection that solidarity can afford than to stick it out like ATC did with national protected Indudtrial action.

Now, 6 or so years later these 4 other groups are crying foul that they are not getting the same deal as ATC are potentially getting and asking for the support AND then as you have done above QUESTION why ATC did not try for an across the board same same agreement for all.

I ask you, have you done your DAMP CBT becuase you have GOT to be drunk right now :hmm:

The only thing more pathetic that I have seen with respect to long term ideals held within the Certified Agreements are those that chose to sign an ALM contract. No contracts in operational environments has been the absolute 'no negotiation' part of the profession since Certified Agreements came into existence. I hear that 'market forces' will be used when their current contracts expire. With the global financial crisis, I have a feeling there may be some pain on the way. Tough titties.

[BN APP 125.6]

AWA's.

Live by the sword......

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Did I hear around 18% over 3 years........

At least that will keep up with the 'future' inflation I guess.
Don't know about 'past' inflation rates though.....

:ok:

[burple]

Griffo,
Depends on whose rubbery figures you believe. Pity the CANG were so defensive when this question was raised.

[BN APP 125.6]

You must have been to a different briefing, or asked a different question to the one I did, because it was quite clear to me what the % was.

If you really are a Civil Air member why don't you go back and ask your delegate, or ask to see the draft document?

Nobody I have seen from Civil Air is defensive. The only defensive comments I have been privvy to have been from those representing the ASA side of the negotiation. (Although they were more offensive than defensive generally)

[Here to Help]

All Civil Air members can check their email or look at the member forum for an update.

[peuce]

This thread was used to garner support from the wider Industry to assist in getting a better deal for ATCs.

Now that there appears to have been a good outcome ... it's become secret squirrel stuff ...

Fair enough if there's a secrecy clause attached to the EBA ... but I'm sure those who've gone in to bat for ATCs are due some sort of explanation of the outcome.

Is that not a reasonable request ?

[Jerricho]

I would certainly be interested, as we're at contract negotiation time, and are hearing the "Economic Climate" thing.........

[BN APP 125.6]

I don't believe there is any secrecy - there is just prudent discretion until the (still draft) agreement has been approved by government.

Little point in debating the pro's and con's if it is not to be approved in the first place.

Civil Air members will be able to read about where things are at in their latest email from the office, or on the website forum, posted last night.

The trolls will have to wait a while.

[Dick N. Cider]

My association is keeping me updated. There are issues around the legal process that make it prudent to wait until sign off is achieved before letting the wider community know what's what.

All members have access to the deal in detail now if they see their delegate. Those that aren't members can ask their managers. What Airservices is doing with the draft agreement is up to them.

I'll wait.

DNC

[undervaluedATC]

All I can say about the offer is that the way you can tell that it has actually been negotiated is that neither side got everything they wanted. :mad: :{:sad:

[blind freddy]

Wellconcerned,

Where are you??

I am sure a man of your connections would have read all about the offer, and be keeping us up to date!!

Why are you so silent? Your not on holidays, out of internet reach are you?
How many ALMs are or leave from Melbourne at the moment......:ooh:

BTW, I have seen the offer, and am satisfied, but not over the moon.

[Dick N. Cider]

All I can say about the offer is that the way you can tell that it has actually been negotiated is that neither side got everything they wanted. :sad:

Oh so true but that is negotiation

DNC

[everyonefedup]

No one got what they wanted? I thought that was the litmus test of CA negotiation.

Look the offer is at a point where it is at least reasonable now - I just wish that we hadn't wasted so much time getting to this point. All of that agro being dragged through the media for nothing.... for TFN to come to the table at the 11th hour with suggestions that Civil Air had come up with months ago...

I am looking forward to this CA being done and dusted so we can focus on some of the real problems of the place... the CA was a poorly run shamozol of a process but the real problems have far deeper roots.

[bydol]

The CA will not solve the staffing shortage.

[Baileys]

...And the CA has always been a "shamozol" ever since it was known as a CA.

[Roger Standby]

the "no jeans or shorts" dress code about to be introduced in the college

That can complement the no t-shirts rule for Regional Services about to be implemented in Melbourne. Or sports scores to the pilots - it's unprofessional:rolleyes:.

"QLK1022, my manager advises that it is unprofessional to pass on scores and that I am not allowed to do it. Australia may be 3 for 256, but that cannot be confirmed".:}

[Howabout]

I have no desire to troll. You guys have come up with a deal, apparently, and now it needs government ratification (presumably), if I understand the process.

I'd just like to say that I admire the professionalism exhibited by your union and by the members. No back-biting, no advertisement of what the proposed agreement may be, no bitching about the outcome - and no skyting.

Whatever the outcome, and I hope it's in your best interests, you have displayed exemplary restraint.

As for the rest of us out here in aviation land, we'll stand by to stand by. It's none of our business and, if the details are eventually released, then that's all fine a beaut. If not, it's none of our business anyway.

It's between you guys and your employer. Keep it that way until it's nailed down. If it's publically releasable afterwards, then fine. If not, that's also fine. The bottom line is "Don't feed the trolls."

[undervaluedATC]

But surely with the CA resolving the staff shortages, won't the "no jeans or shorts" dress code about to be introduced in the college solve the training issues?

Or would that be akin to Nero fiddling whilst Rome burned?some of our fiddlers would leave andre reiu for dead! Although the scene from deliverance also springs to mind for some reason :ouch: (and I know that it was a banjo in the movie - before any 'anoraks' out there point it out)

[CaptainMidnight]

Heard some Airservices staff are holding a stopwork meeting Friday?

What services affected?

[blind freddy]

The Techs are taking industrial action this Friday from 1300 to 1700L.
That means if anything breaks during that period it aint going to get fixed.

This is in support of the Corporate Agreement, and has nothing to do with the ATC agreement, which is very close to being finalised.

[Howabout]

UVATC,

Anyone would leave Andre Reiu for dead - tanning salon ponce.

As for Deliverance, I think the scene where the fat guy gets introduced to "southern hospitality" might be more appropriate with respect to how your "betters" might be rewarded. Specifically, for their efforts in taking so long to come to a deal that may have been achievable months ago.

[JackoSchitt]

Blind Freddy,

Open you eyes and SEEEEEEEE......

Techs in ML, BN and SY and Ausfic.

Ausfic going will take out:

Domestic HF
International HF
Flightwatch VHF discrete frequencies
Briefing office
Notam office
AFTN message communications centre

but hey, you knew all that right???? :hmm:

[Slugfest]

Ybbb C2141/09
Brisbane International Hf Network Sp-6 Communications Fis
And Inflight Emerg Response Not Avbl Due Industrial Action
A Limited Monitoring Svc For Emerg Calls Is Avbl.
Regional Network Message Handing Iaw Icao Annex 10 Will Apply.
From 03 270300 To 03 270700

Ybbb C2142/09
Brisbane International Hf Networks Sea-3 And Ino-1 Delays May Be
Experienced
In The Provision Of International Hf Aeronautical Mobile
Communications Fis And Inflight Emerg Response Due Industrial Action.
From 03 270300 To 03 270700

Ybbb C2143/09
Discrete Flightwatch Vhf And Domestic Hf Not Avbl
Third Party Aeronautical Mobile Communications Fis And Inflight
Emergency Response On Discrete Flightwatch Vhf And Domestic Hf As Per
Ersa Gen-fis Not Avbl Due Industrial Action.
A Limited Monitoring Svc For Emerg Calls Is Avbl

Svc Avbl On Fia Freqencies

Sartime Svc Avbl On 1800 814 931
From 03 270300 To 03 270700

Ybbb C2144/09
Pilot Briefing Service And Submission Of Flight Notifications Via
Fax And Phone Not Avbl Due Industrial Action
Briefing And Submission Of Flight Notification Via The Internet Avbl

Sartime Ser Avbl On 1800 814 931
From 03 270300 To 03 270700

[Here to Help]

Due Industrial Action

You see, they DO have a phrase for industrial action in a NOTAM

I guess all the airspace/tower closures and delays must really have been due "Staff Shortage" and "Staff Availability" after all!

[blind freddy]

I humbly apologise; unreservedly.

I was completely unawares that Ausfic was joining the struggle also.

Good luck to all involved, I hope it makes the other side come to the table with a better offer.

[ER_BN]

Griffo,

You may say 18%+ over three and half but I read the AVNET and I believe everything the CEO says:

"ATCs 4.3% per year". If that is true why did it take so long?

ER.

[Slugfest]

Ymmm C2173/09 Review C2159/09
Fac Domestic Hf Not Avbl
Due Industrial Action
As Per En Route Supplement Australia (ersa)
Gen Fis 7 Para 17.1 Use Of Mobile Telephones In Aircraft

Melbourne Atc Centre 03 93384032

Brisbane Atc Centre 07 32163127
From 03 270300 To 03 270700

[Slugfest]

The UFU deal is completely out in the open and clearly is a crock. The Fireies bought a pup!:sad:

The Civil Air deal is all hush hush with copious layers of bullSh1T COVER UP about needing gov approval before distribution. Utter rubbish.:suspect:

MR Russel says that the deal on offer to CPSU, CEPU etc is comparable to that offered to Civil Air and UFU. soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo........

WHAT EXACTLY is the civil air deal if it is so fair and reasonable for the organisations involved????:confused::confused:

LET US see it and LET US make that assessment huh!!!!!!



18.5% over 3.5 years
RETENTION of UNLIMITED SICK LEAVE
RETENTION of ANNUAL PERFORMANCE BONUS
RETENTION of 36hrs week
No sign on bonus BUT a Flatter structure - 13 layers compressed to 9 that sees ALL staff go up an immediate pay rise in excess of the former signon bonus ($2500)....AND the REAL KICKER is that this "covert" secret squirrel under the table back room salary bonus now counts for salary for all purposes for evera and a day and therefore sees an instant winfall in SUPERANNUATION by a VERY considerable amount. 6-10 times in fact for a defined benefits avsuper memba.

bit more than the TOTAL ELIMINATION OF AN ANNUAL MAYBE PAYMENT OF 1% of salary if the company...yes COMPANY....the whole bloody COMPANY....performs dont you think???:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

THAT IS NO WHERE NEAR THE DEAL ON OFFER to the rest of the organisation.:yuk::yuk:

Oh, hang on, my mistake, this is the "better way of doing things"..... too bad we have seen all these tactics before.
:*:*:*

[Plazbot]

Sounds to me like you knobs should not have voted to go it yourselves now dosen't it?

[Unregistered1]

There's always one tossa!!!!

That means EWE.

[undervaluedATC]

Slugfest
1 of your 5 dot points is just completely inaccurate.
The other 4 are exagerrated - ranging from slightly to more than a little.
And you left out some conditional/qualifying points that would put a bit of context on things.

[Slugfest]

uATC,

I await your context and specific corrections with keen interest.

[malroy]

Slugfest,
Don't expect any details of the civilair offer to appear here before it has gone through government processing. The process has been too long and drawn out. We are still waiting to see the full document and to have the opportunity to vote on it. No one on the civil air side wants to see that put in jeopardy!

Once due process has been followed I am sure you will see the detail. Until then I wish you well with your fight. If there was one agreement we would all be in this together, but that is not the way of our organization... they have divided and now seek to conquer, we must all stand strong. And part of that is to respect the wishes of other groups by not trying to antagonize each other or trying to find details of negotiations through spreading rumor (lest you be called a troll). So once again, patience!

And to the civilair members, congrats on the solidarity shown so far!!!

I just wish that the resolution of the agreement would also fix the staffing and training issues. :(

[Fly_by_wire]

I don't accept that if details were to come out it would compromise the situation of Civilair. If someone were to release the draft document (which currently only the CivilAir president has) why would ASA suddenly pull the pin on the whole process?

There is only one reason why details are not being released into the public domain and that is so ASA can deceive corporate staff on the real deal that is being offered to ATC. End of story.

ASA management claim what is being offered is 'fair and reasonable' compared to other agreements but will not give any details of said agreements.

[blind freddy]

FBW,
Wrong.

Every member has access to the proposed ATC agreement, they just have to ask their delegates to have a look.

It is not AsA they are trying to keep it from; it is the politicians, the public, and other people that would try and play loose and free with the interpretations.
We dont want anyone to try and turn our hard fought agreement into a political football, or try and ride on our coat tails to use it for themselves.

Thankfully, we have a united membership that shows patience.

As soon as the Minister signs it off, I will be happy to send as many copies to you as you like.

[Fly_by_wire]

I take your point, put it this way I don't like choking on the crap that is being shoved down the throats of corporate staff by management without having any real evidence to being able to throw back at them. They are engaged in deceptive and misleading conduct and it is a disgrace.

[mmhbtower]

I am a member I have been asking for a copy for 3 weeks and no one will give me one. whats the big secret it sounds like a heap BS to me:confused:

[Plazbot]

Have you phoned your delegate and askeed them for a briefing over the phone?

[Pretty Boy 2]

FBW you do have the firies agreement up to compare with. Is that not good enough?

[Fly_by_wire]

The point I was trying (unsuccessfully) to make was that if the overall offer is 4.3% per annum (which we know the overall increase isn't) then why would there be so much secrecy around it from management?

[Baileys]

It's their usual divide and conquer strategy. Nothing new there.

[BN APP 125.6]

FBW is correct.

Civil Air and it's membership have endured too much crap for too long in this CA 'negotiation' to have it jeopardised by it becoming a political football.

Anyone who is a member of Civil Air and does not know what is contained in the draft agreement by now hasn't tried very hard to find out.

I would suggest there are plenty of trolls here.

[undervaluedATC]

Slugfest,
I think enough people have already said it for me, but I will not be going into any details before Civilair says I can.
I just wanted you to know that your source may have not been as accurate or informed as they should have been.
If - as it appears - you are not affected by the ATC eba, I wish you well in your struggle - but please don't ask for details I'm not allowed to give you yet.

[mikk_13]

so how did no hf go today?