Merged: ASA Staff Shortage

[KRUSTY 34]

I have personally witnessed this blokes (GR) "negotiation" style.

Years ago he accused the pilot representitive group at the company for which he was GM, of not acting in the best interest of the pilot body. You see, these people (the pilots commitee) had the temerity to argue that any wage increase should first and foremost be one of CPI and any additional increase be linked to productivity. The Company insisted that all that was available was some 1-2% below CPI, and if the employees wanted anything above that, then significant productivity offsets would be needed. Not surprisingly there was an impasse.

As a result of this the GM bypassed the pilot representative body, and went directly to the pilot group (via a letter and neatly packaged proposal) for a vote. The vote was a resounding defeat of virtually a 100% no!

I'm convinced that the inablity to empathise, if not even listen to your staff, must be some sort of genetic trait afflicting people of his ilk. What other explanation can there be for this apparent lack of reason? I'll say one thing, this particular leopard hasn't changed his spots!

From what I hear, the frustration is building. Believe me guys I know exactly how you feel. If the gloves do come off in December, I reckon the politicians, not to mention the public and airlines, will be looking for blood.

Hope you've got plenty to give Greg?

[BeGoneTFN]

Wouldn't it be interesting if the IRC came back and said one extra shift a month was reasonable (which it is), and ALL the controllers took that literally.

My, wouldn't that be a pip. :}

Be careful what you wish for Gregory! :eek: whaaaa, haaaaa, better start being a nice ars:mad:e hole.

There I go again!
I really should practise my censoring.

BgTFN

[undervaluedATC]

Max1, why the reluctance to share the pitiful offer from AsA? I respect your postings on the union website, so I'll go along with you (more or less), but really can't see the harm in sharing - in fact, people might get an idea of why we are upset.

somniferous one thing that has already been 'revealed' is that AsA want us to give up our current as-required sickleave (bear in mind our requirement to be fit-for-duty) - now the last time I investigated the issue, income protection insurance - if you could find someone to cover ATC's was in the ball park of $15K a year. Since that comes out of my post-tax dollars, I'd need a pay rise of significantly more than that to agree to this reduction in conditions. AsA has definately NOT offered anything like this amount to offset the loss of protection afforded by the entitlement.

In fact, AsA have not put any indicative figures on any of the "productivity" trade-offs that they want us to consider. - Even though I'm sure the team of accountants in the AWB has costed every wishlist item extremely thoroughly and know exactly how much each is worth in savings to the organisation.

[Sunfish]

I'm convinced that the inablity to empathise, if not even listen to your staff, must be some sort of genetic trait afflicting people of his ilk. What other explanation can there be for this apparent lack of reason? I'll say one thing, this particular leopard hasn't changed his spots!


Narcissistic personality disorder perhaps? "Inability to empathise" is a symptom. It's always all about them, not you.

[max1]

UVA,
If somniferous is an ATC I am trying to encourage them to visit the website. I sense a journo digging for a story, and based on their form so far I am reluctant to help The Fourth Estate distort our issues in the public eye.

After TFNs disgusting and unproven allegations in the sanctity of Senates Estimates, the 'offer' is designed to provoke an unprofessional reaction from controllers. TFNs ego knows no bounds, he is trying to engineer a fight to save his own skin after three years of bonus driven, cost cutting that has left an organisation unable to fulfil its core responsibilty, or recover in the short/medium term.

We have been at the blame shifting stage for 12 months, he is trying to goad decent,responsible, professional people who have been trying to alert the Bureaucrats for over five years to the cliff we are approaching,into some silly action to justify his baseless assertions.

Controllers have been doing unreasonable O/T for years. TFN is on record as admitting it. What he is unwilling to do is fix it. He knows it will get a lot worse before it gets better, and is doing his damndest to move responsibilty. From other posters on here he's done it before.

If he really cared about the travelling public, he could go along way to fixing it through a decent gesture in the EBA. His personality types aren't wired that way. Reminds me of someone in a bunker in 1945.

The place is collapsing without ATC needing to resort to some fictitious industrial campaign, the Line Managers know it, the Lvl 3s know it, I suspect the GM ATC knows it. TFN is in denial.

It will take 3-4 years of ATCs still working stupid amounts of O/T to dig the Bureaucrats out of the hole they have dug, but based on what TFN thinks is a fantastic payrise 4%, to be obligated to come in 24/7, and give up sick leave protection is an insult.
97% of controllers use less than the 15 days. So he wants 700 plus controllers to give up this protection so they can take a stick to 20 people who are long term sick. In any large organisation you will find a few rorters amongst the long term sick, we already have the means to deal with these people.

They have also offered 14 weeks maternity leave (we had 12), and one weeks paternity leave, and choice of superannuation. Items the government have just mandated anyway. A quick look at the demographic of controllers (which seems to have escaped ASA for the last 10 years) will show maternity/paternity leave would mean nothing to about 95+% of controllers, and costs ASA nothing as the government would now be throwing about $8000 ASAs way per maternity leave when previously they got nothing.ASA are actually in front. What next free air and tap water?

[Baileys]

And what were you expecting. Some huge generous offer??

This time round will be the same as last time round and then the time before that.

The question is....when it gets put to the vote, which it will.....like last time, will the silent majority vote for it anyway? Maybe not the first vote but it shouldn't take too long or too many changes to get enough people to say...."I am retiring soon. I don't really want to take industrial action, I'll quietly vote yes".

And Canberra knows that this is what will happen - unless you guys stick together.

[Howabout]

As always Max, you're on the money from the perspective of this outside observer.

My read is that your management is hell-bent on a fight during the XMAS period. The disruption to the general publics' holiday plans would not elicit any sympathy - you'd be painted as a bunch of 'union thugs' holding the travelling public to ransom.

I think that it's their last "shot in the locker" and, from what I've read on your website, I don't think that the guys that run Civil Air are that stupid. Regardless, there will be provocation to encourage industrial action - rising to the bait would be dead-set stupid.

To paraphrase an aviation legend, "I am sure you will agree."

[Fly_by_wire]

I want to know when people are going to start being held accountable for this debacle, the board and senior management sure have a lot to answer for

[fl610]

Mate I'm still waiting for the sliver bogie and the others in high places to be held accountable for the debacle of 89 :mad: I can't hold my breath much longer! :sad:

[Dick Smith]

Normally in a business it is better to have full time staff than to rely on overtime – because of the overtime loadings that normally apply.

Is there something different at Airservices? Is it less expensive for Airservices management to rely on overtime rather than putting on the adequate number of full time staff?

I look forward to advice on this.

[max1]

Dick,

Short answer- Yes.

Bonus driven culture in a safety environment. Controllers have been doing large amounts of O/T for years to ensure the industry is not inconvenienced.
ASA are continually telling us they are working on the problem. Greg Russell started as CEO and went on a self proclaimed 'No BS' tour' in 2005' to listen to our concerns'. He was made aware in no uncertain terms, and given examples of

1. Ageing staff demographic, we needed to start ramping up recruitment 2 years before his arrival and it was imperative we start now.

2. People had been left stagnating on consoles for up to 20 years.

3. People with 20+ years of shiftwork have been putting in applications for Long Service Leave up to 3 years in advance only to have them knocked back due lack of staff.

4. There is no simulator refresher training, controllers are not being regularly put under pressure in the simulator in regards to IFER situations, airspace changes, WX scenarios,etc to test themselves and be examined under extreme circumstances.
This means the time the controller is put in challenging circumstances and found to not be up to scratch is when they are dealling with live traffic. A complete Breakdown of Separation( BOS) review was done in July 2003 (following a near mid-air of two RPT jets around Tamworth) a list of recommendations was done. A post implementation review was done in Dec 2004, most of the recommendations are still on the backburner due staff shortages.

5. Training needed to be ramped up.

6. 'Efficiencies' in rostering, along with institutionalised O/T,were leaving people chronically fatigued

Greg Russells answer. "I will make sure this gets fixed as a priority."

Greg Russells actions.
1. Nothing happened with recruitment.

2.He got a hatchet man into streamline (gut ) the College.

3. He implemented SDE which saw 100 operational controllers out of a staff of less than 900 taken away from the consoles and given 30-100% payrises on AWAs. This is about the time the TIBAs really started happening , about September last year. Our CA negotiations weren't even scheduled to start til April, but Greg Russell would have Joe Public through the media believe it is an industrial campaign. It is mis management.

Greg is now trying to goad the controllers into some drastic action through his comments in the media,frivolous disputes in the AIRC, and actions through the CA 'lack of negotiations' to precipitate controllers to inconvenience the Flying Public.

The place is falling apart as it is.There are 8 known people leaving Brisbane Approach in the next 8 months, out of a roster of around 30. There may be more. The older controllers are bringing retirement dates forward because of the toxic atmosphere, and the younger ones are waiting for their 5 year 'bonds' to expire. People have contracts waiting for their signature for Germany, Ireland, EuroControl, and the Middle East. They are waiting on the CA negotiations, after ASAs efforts this week some people have decided not to wait and are in the process of resigning.

The only way out is for controllers to work even more O/T. Because even the GM ATC has admitted it will take at least 2 years to dig us out of the hole we are now in. I think more like 4 years.

This has come about from a bonus driven short term outlook in management.
Middle management are discouraged from telling it like it is because they are contract/ bonus driven, and that culture has stemmed from the Board and CEO. Don't believe the spin about industrial dispute, the origins of this debacle go back years, Greg Russell could have started us on a road to redemption 3 years ago, but he was brought in for his cost cutting/ restructuring (gutting) ability. Have a look at his record.

[ferris]

That's about it in a nutshell, Dick. But to answer your question- yes, it is cheaper to run constant overtime than have adequate staff. Think of it as a lot of little business units (sectors) that require, say, 2.3 people. Clearly, if money is no object, you have 3 people and a slight inefficiency. If safety is no object, you have 2 full-timers and make them work overtime to fill the .3. Therein is the constant clash between "business imperitives" (money), and safety.
Thats a huge simplification, I know, but the guts of the problem. To make the analogy closer and from a business viewpoint: Imagine you have a restaurant with 60 tables. You have a core staff of chefs etc, but a variable waiter requirement. Some days you need lots, some days not so many. You never know in advance how many, except for the obvious peaks (say lunch rush then the dinner rush). On top of this, every table has a different menu, and waiters take a long time to be trained in these menus, and can realistically only cope with 3 or 4 tables.
Enter the CEO charged with making more money. he cant get more customers, so has to be cost driven.
He can try and slash any obvious costs, but year after year this gets harder. He can then try and make the waiters more flexible, using part-timers, facilitative arrangements, split shifts etc. Use less waiters, but cope with peaks using overtime. Or try and change the way the restaurant does business by streamlining the different menus (that trick is yet to be perfected- and is the SDE theory).

[blind freddy]

Max1,
as usual, eloquently said.

We all know that TFN is trying to goad us into industrial action.
It will not work.

The sad thing is that we will continue to do our best to keep the place running. But, when it inevitably falls in a heap, somehow it will be the fault of the controllers for not doing their bit.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Max1,

Why are you folks NOT taking Industrial Action, that is the one thing that will definately achieve your goals. What would current management hope to gain from goading you into Industrial Action ?.

Imagine the slaughter of management and bonuses post a spanking in the Media/AIRC, are the demands of the Controllers reasonable ?.

I would say Industrial Action is your only choice.

Put up, shut up or move on, I believe the industry as a whole has a great amount of respect for what you lot do, and would be very supportive.

[blind freddy]

LRT,
Simple, its the law.... we can't take industrial action, even if we wanted to, which we don't, by the way.

Any action taken outside of a protected period is deemed illegal, and could have penalties imposed on the union and possibly the individual.

Why do you think they are trying to goad us into it??!!

That is why Civil Air can not and does not support any illegal activities.

We are unable to persue any form of industrial action until the expiration of our current agreement, which is December 21.

Now that sounds like a particularly nasty time to be doing anything like that doesn't it?

If TFN and Co. can manage to provoke something before that, they win.

If we wait it out, and take our time, the pressure will be on them, not us.

One day they will come to their collective senses and genuinely negotiate.


But I'm not holding my breath.:\

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

Blind Freddy,

Thanks for the explanation, good luck on the 21DEC, do not forget the sins of the past.

Working to rule is legal, are you legally required to take any and all OT, TIBA is your friend.

[max1]

LHRT,

As much as we are painted as 'white collar wharfies' it is not in our nature to harm the industry. We are trying to continue to provide the service to the industry and the travelling public in spite of what management have done. CONTROLLERS DO NOT WANT AN INDUSTRIAL DISPUTE.
Staffing wise the place has been going downhill for the last five plus years, there is no achievable on-going training plan. Wish lists are put out for public consumption. Under TFNs leadership ASA have cut and cut and cut, he is now trying to implement his SDE model, which he forlornly hopes will solve the staffing issues.
If this was an airline, he had 90% of the pilots needed and has been working them like dogs (we don't have CAR48 protection). He stopped recruiting.To save further money he sent a toecutter in and gutted the training area. He decided to create another level of management. To tie them to him these jobs were to be AWA (contract positions) only, payrises were from 30-100%. This took a further 10% of the workforce away. Some of the new 'pilot' managers had less than 2 years experience, others were doing 'projects' out the back due dubious aviation records, of course some were good. Quite a few who won positions were uncomfortable that their safety based decisions would be at odds with a contract and turned them down.
As the staffing crisis deepens TFN Airways decides that he will bring in a requirement for the now 80% of required pilots to hold endorsements on all aircraft types, and that they will be obligated to attend for work whenever rung.
He has decided to start recruiting in a big way, but then realises that the toecutter has been overzealous and that the training department has pretty much ceased to exist. He now finds that a lot of his pilots have had enough and are leaving, he decides to throw all the blame on the pilots. He is now inventing fictitious industrial action and trying to goad the pilots into doing something illegal.

And this is pretty much where TFN airlines is now

[BeGoneTFN]

Max1,

Could not have put it any better myself.

Dick,

ASA is a terrible mess, the writing has been on the wall for nearly three years now and the situation is getting desperate.

I love my job, I had a real passion for the opportunities that existed these however are all now non existant, the management of the place has literally driven us into the ground.

I pose the question.

Just because I am a shiftworker why should there be an expectation that I will work on my days off to keep the place running, no end in sight to this requirement because it has now become the norm due to mismanagement. How am I any different to someone who works in finance 9-5, that may want to enjoy time with the family on the weekend and not be constantly irritable and fatigued?

Why should my entitlement to enjoy my free time be any less?

Controllers have individually had enough, to be honest even if the Union did not exist the same result would transpire.

I finished a night shift a while ago at 6am and by 10am the phone was ringing to fill shifts for that afternoon, talk about sense of humour failure!

Little wonder everyone that can is leaving!

BeGone TFN

[boree3]

Dick,

I`d like to point out a few things if you would be so kind as to pass them on.

1. Air Traffic Controllers have been working extra shifts for years. Some are rostered weeks in advance but many are short notice call outs i.e. a call at 5.00 a.m.to attend work at 6.00 a.m.

2. The number of call outs has been steadily increasing for some time but there has been a marked increase in the last 12 months. Why? The reasons are many but if you take 100 or so supervisors away from part-time live traffic handling and expect the other 750 or so controllers to pick up the slack..... It`s not rocket science is it?

3. The age profile of contollers is not getting any better. if you`ve been shiftworking for 20 or 30 years, as many have, guess what? On your days off, especially if you finished on a night shift, you are not capable of driving to work safely, let alone separate IFR from VFR in class A or whatever we are supposed to do these days.

4. ASA has made no effort to negotiate a new CA. They`ve been stalling for months after lots of rhetoric that "there has to be a better way" Yeah right Greg!

5. The current CA ends on December the 21st. After that day all of our facilitative arrangements, where we agree with management to work outside of our core rostering principles, become null and void. The use of a facilitative agreement has, generally, been a win-win for controllers and management allowing more efficient rosters and more days off.

6. Post the 21st of December when FA`s are out the door then most groups will need to find an extra controller or two to run their core rosters. Where will we find these controllers? We won`t, `cos we don`t have them.

The result of all of the above? On the 22nd of December, just in time for the Christmas rush, there will be many, many holes to be filled on rosters all around the country. This is why ASA is taking Civilair to the IRC atm as who in their right mind wants to work on their days off. Yes, days off, not holidays like most. The bulk of the 750 or so operational controllers will continue to work 24/7 shiftwork over the xmas/newyear whist the general population has a well earned break. Now don`t get me wrong as a shiftworking ATC i expect to work my share of public holidays, weekends etc. but at certain times of the year why shouldn`t i be free to have a drink or two ( bugger me it`s Christmas, make it three!) and enjoy my days off?

Why has it come to this Dick? Most of us who`ve been around a while have seen this sort of thing in previous negotiations. Trouble is this time we have a CEO who says one thing and does almost the complete opposite. We are not after a fight. We just want to be fairly rewarded for what we do.

Come the 22nd don`t blame the controllers or Civilair. Take a long hard look at ASA and thier rhetoric and actions of the last few months.

[Robbovic]

You have to give management credit for creativity in solving the current problems.
The latest solution that will be implemented from the middle of November is to establish a night rating for airspace that is similar to what a controller is or has been rated on, even without completing the requisite training. This "endorsement" can be exercised as long as the traffic levels arent too high or too complex, and if they are, it is up to the duty supervisor to sort out. This has come about because the training for new airspace has not been completed on time.
I guess this is just in line with the plug-and-play endorsement philosophy that is envisaged as one of the "flexibility" measures being considered by managers, but to me it is a very sharp, thin edge to a very large wedge.
Check out TLI 0319/08 before it (hopefully) gets pulled when someone up there realises the safety implications of what is being proposed and how vulnerable it leaves everyone involved.

[No Further Requirements]

Hello? CASA? Are you hearing this? How can they get away with this?!?

[Slugfest]

ASA Annual Report is out

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/media/corporatepubs/docs/annualreports/areport0708.pdf

Page 39 is interesting.


NET PROFIT AFTER INCOME TAX $91,975, 000


This is down on 06-07's total $106,754, 000 by $14, 779, 000.

Which is less than the mark down for Impairment of $15, 441, 000.

Second, Page 71...


B . IMPAIRMENT

In line with accounting standards, management has performed an impairment review of both existing assets and assets under construction. Principally, the review has focused on future use of existing assets, and changes in technology and business system requirements. As a consequence of this review, a number of software projects have ceased, and the costs associated with this work has been expensed.




If Impairment is important, why was it not included in 06-07? and

What software projects were ceased?



Page 84.

Remuneration of executives

2008

$4,836,713

2007

$4,458,912

[Robbovic]

NFR
Rang the CASA confidential safety line when i got home i was so incensed by the TLI - got a recorded message - they would ring me back if i left a message

[Bill Woodfull]

2008


$4,836,713


2007


$4,458,912


8.47% pay hike for continuing to reduce a proud Air Navigation provider to Global ATC joke.

If you get 8.47% for the atrophy of the company, what for being a licence holding seperator thats keeping it afloat in a staff shortage?

[undervaluedATC]

Bill WoodfulIf you get 8.47% for the atrophy of the company, what for being a licence holding seperator thats keeping it afloat in a staff shortage?

AsA has offered 4% per annum - provided we give up or reduce about 6 of our terms and conditions. :ugh: The whole thrust of AsA's arguement is that it has to be cost neutral - we have to pay for our payrise by giving up entitlements.

this from the company that made an net profit of $106M in 2007, and $92M this year - $14M less, but as mentioned above, this year there's a new entry in the report of "Write-down and impairment of assets $15.4M"

But I'm sure there's no correlation there - at all.

[max1]

Airways Revenue i.e. what airlines get charged for ATC and ARFF was up $31million to $707.261 million (4.5%). This represents more than 95% of ASAs income, up from 94.4% last year.

This at a time when @ 100 controllers were 'promoted' on AWAs to non-separation duties leaving around 750 to carry the can.

I wonder how many other businesses would degrade the workforce that brings in over 95% of their income by 11-12% when they have already identified that they are chronically short of staff.

The Board had a meet and greet with staff in Brisbane last week. The Chairman was asked how he thought the negotiations were going seeing that ASA had only just put an 'offer' on the table 6 months into negotiations and with less than 2 months to go until the expiry of the current CA. His reply was that it was only early in negotiations yet. He was also asked if he thought this would be sorted by Dec 21st . He thought it would, he further stated that by their very nature that these negotiations were adverserial. This was after TFN had told staff that he wanted negotiations to be non-adverserial and resolved by September. TFN publicly states that staff shortages were fixed by the end of August.

At this meeting an advisor to the Board advised me that the Board was aware we are CURRENTLY AT LEAST 70 SHORT. Spin over substance.

Come Dec 21st , Facilitative Arrangements that allowed staff to work outside Principles Of Rostering cease to exist, they run out with the current CA, it is a legal requirement.

At that time the years of mismanagement will be starkly highlighted, controllers DO NOT WANT this to occur. This mess must be sorted out prior to this. ASA are in no rush to get a new agreement in. As per most greedy corporations they realise that no agreement means no payrises (we haven't seen one since January) and the longer they stall the more money they realise.

The Government Bargaining Framework under which they hide behind does not allow for backdated payrises. ASA have used this in the last two CAs and are sticking with it. In the last 8 years we are about 2 years behind due 911, SARs etc.

ASA need to realise that they are there for industry, not the other way around. Unfortunately the personality types running the organisation are quick to applaud and reward themselves with generous payrises and bonuses, ignore their many debacles, and seem to forget that 95% of the revenue is generated because of the travelling public.

The money spent in the last few years on opening offices in Dubai, India, etc to 'grow the global business' seems at odds with the focus on cost cutting that has gone on in the core business and that is why we have the situation we now have.

P.S. In the Annual Report ASA state they have 971 controllers, the GM ATC admits we have about 800 controllers, he is actually an ex controller .They count anyone who has a medically valid licence. In the AIRC ASA figures showed a grossly inflated 930, this crowd would do Enron proud.

[Blockla]

AsA has offered 4% per annum - provided we give up or reduce about 6 of our terms and conditions. The whole thrust of AsA's arguement is that it has to be cost neutral - we have to pay for our payrise by giving up entitlements.From my reading of the offer, the conditions ASA proposed to be surrendered are worth significantly more than the 4% on offer. This isn't self funding pay-rises, this is going backwards faster than you can say "I voted No".

This is why I left Australia, so far so good. Get the next flight out, only when the 70 Short number reaches 150 that they'll go 'perhaps we got this wrong'. No wait, nobody in the corporate world has ever made a mistake, so there would be no admission of getting it wrong...

[divingduck]

Remember to think to yourselves the mantra that you will hear over and over again once you move overseas..."if you don't like it, leave".
And then use this to your current place of employment. As many of the above have said, they will get the hint eventually when there is noone left.
I departed for shores brown, then browner and finally green 11 years ago, and have never regretted the move.
It will come as quite a shock, but there are ANSP's out there that actually appreciate and respect their staff.
Not wishing to bang the Irish drum, but this is the happiest place that I have worked in over 20 years. Can you imagine workmates actually going out together for a drink? or a BBQ (weather dependent of course) or going on a weekend away for a Xmas do? (we are off to Edinburgh this time).
Life is short and you are a long time dead.....leave.

[Sunfish]

Block:

This is why I left Australia, so far so good. Get the next flight out, only when the 70 Short number reaches 150 that they'll go 'perhaps we got this wrong'.

Only after a mid air kills a very large number of people will the smallest of "gaps" be grudgingly acknowledged.

[divingduck]

I hope you are not suggesting that nothing will occur until two aircraft collide?

Given that TCAS is a pretty good tool these days, it could be years before that happens and the boys and girls would like it resolved before the coroners inquest.

My spies tell me that some of the controllers have even written to members of parliament and ministers of the Crown voicing their concerns. If any of you budding cub reporters are reading this, you may want to bring up the fact that the pollies know about all this and are doing nothing.
It will play very badly in the aforementioned coroners court.

I also heard that AsA are introducing "Doggo" ratings?? I suppose it is better than TIBA...just.
Which idiot put his signature to that?

[max1]

Which idiot put his signature to that?

Pick one, we've got heaps.

A 'safety orientated culture' that is bonus driven, and puts ATS Front Line Managers (ALMs) on vastly inflated contracts.
This leads to situations, due staff shortages, where ALMs deem it is okay for trainees to train for ratings in the simulator by themselves with no instuctors, that people who have been assessed as being no longer proficient are instructing due no-one else available. This is all being done to facillitate the transition to SDE, whose benefits are dubious and over inflated to say the least.

SDE is predicated on controllers having generic ratings, like pilots being endorsed and assessed as current on multiple aircraft types. A controller recently returned from Europe, states that studies done over there indicate that controller efficiency drops around 25-30% because they have to continually be thinking about what sector they are on, what co-ord is required,what separation standard they use, etc, etc because, like aircraft, every sector has its own quirks and set-ups, and a more conscious effort has to be made to double check everything you are doing when previously it was more of an 'unconscious competence' action. You MUST slow down to make sure you are not applying an action from somewhere else to your current environment.

Also, ASA want to take what is currently an autonomous Check and Standardisation area and put it under the control of, and make it the pathway to, the contract ALM position.
Not impugning on anyones integrity, but there does seem to be a conflict of interest when someones rise to the riches of the ALM non 24/7, non separating of aircraft ( thats right no more 24/7/365 shiftwork,more weekends off, no responsibility of separating aircraft, @$200k package) is predicated on keeping the ALMs happy with the checking of controllers. Besides being impartial you must be seen to be impartial. A la the Westminster system of the Separation of Powers.

If something does go wrong the day of reckoning with what has gone on will have to be seen to be believed. Pity the travelling public.

[Lodown]

That's an interesting observation DNS. I didn't realize TFN was supposed to fix the mess. I thought his bonus was predicated on reducing costs. All the initiatives and metrics are in place to encourage a bigger mess.

The light bulb will go on one day, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Hempy]

d.n.s,

http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k144/h3mpy/anderson.jpg

[Howabout]

I really have to voice my total support for the RHS comment that he was the worst Transport minister ever. Perpetually remembered as "the clown who signed up for NAS."

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

"This from the company that made an net profit of $106M in 2007, and $92M this year -"

WOW!!

Just imagine!! For THAT we could have kept that 'Pesky' Flight Service Thingy....and still returned a profit - although a much smaller profit!

Imagine the services which would STILL be supplied...........

HF that somebody answers - DTI OCTA - weathers NOW - etc etc
MANNED PILOT BRIEFING OFFICES - You Know, like the ones we used to have where ALL operational info was avbl, face to face, as well as all required publications. It was like....AsA's shop front window...

Ah Well.............The $'s must be more important.:}:}

Now, if ONLY it was reinvested back into the industry.........which is supposed to be a MAIN infrastructure of the country.....:{:ugh:

Regards to all.........:ok:

[peuce]

If ASA is making a profit of $92M and giving it to the State coffers ... isn't that a TAX?

I thought it was "User Pays" ... not "User Pays a tax to the Government" ?

[Philthy]

And CASA asleep at the wheel as usual.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...........

[undervaluedATC]

staffing problem solved...... for a lot of places overseas!

YouTube - Crisis! (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=tIc3_dltkvI)



it would be funnier if it was not true.

[Here to Help]

staffing problem solved...... for a lot of places overseas!

YouTube - Crisis!



Higher res on the official site:
Civil Air Australia - Home (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php)

[Dixondik]

They didn't show some of the TGOs instructing the ATC students......

[angrycontrollerswife]

:=The only renegades I can see here is, Greg Russell and Brian Mueller ex National party members appointed by the ex government.

They have their own political agenda to start their own waterfront debacle. Then blame it on the current government ‘bargaining framework” for the breakdown in the negotiations, then walk away and say “that’s what you get from a Labor government”.

Thank God ATC's are professional.

Wake up Mr Albanese, they have the wool pulled over your eyes!!!!

[undervaluedATC]

how come no-one has shared their disappointment about missing out on seeing TFN in person.

Originally posted on the avnet, "Meet your CEO for the Year in Review" promised scheduled stops at Perth, Adelaide, Melbroune, Brisbane, Canberra & Sydney.

But TFN cancelled after the first one in Perth.
apparently his delicate psyche may have been damaged by the amount of negative feedback recieved. :oh:

way to keep the honest communication going, Greg.

[asanonasyou]

biggest bunch of sooks i've ever seen. If you don't like it piss off and leave. your own buds are saying that here on the site; do it. instead of anonomously posting on forums why don't you try to fix some of the things that are wrong? Oh yeah, because you probably can't do anything else! put up or shut up.

[Starts with P]

instead of anonomously posting on forums why don't you try to fix some of the things that are wrong?

Anonomous ay? :rolleyes:

I know I shouldn't bite, but OK anon, give us some ideas... :ugh:

[max1]

Good one troll (asanonasyou)

We are trying. After we leave, and then what? Problem fixed?

What do you suggest?

Grow up.

[Chatz]

Hmm, a night time rating, I believe I’ve seen that used as a bandaid elsewhere before…..defence?

[west atc]

biggest bunch of sooks i've ever seen. If you don't like it piss off and leave. your own buds are saying that here on the site; do it. instead of anonomously posting on forums why don't you try to fix some of the things that are wrong? Oh yeah, because you probably can't do anything else! put up or shut up.

Hmmmm, ok I'll bite.

After a couple of years of banging my head against the proverbial brick wall I decided that I had enough of the headache and did just that. Unfortunately for many of my colleagues left behind its not that simple, leaving a company such as ASA is not that easy when they are the only ANSP in Australia.

If ASA truly valued the professional staff that they have it would never have come to this but it has been obvious for a long time that the ATCs, otherwise known in Canberra as the PP (Precious People), are a hindrance to doing business instead of their main income providers.

I taut I taw an ALM

I did I did!

I did taw an ALM! :mad:

[BeGoneTFN]

Asanon, :{

Be advised that its people like yourself running our organisation into the ground, do us all a favour get off your arse and get a rating back.

Add some value.

If you're capable that is!

Most ALM's do absolutely stuff all and are good for stuff all! :mad:

[man on the ground]

do us all a favour get off your arse and get a rating back

I reckon you might be crediting the wa*%er with too much of a legitimate past. I'd guess the only time asanon gets off his backside would be to stagger out of the AWB for a coffee from the 'Republic'.

[hoboe]

I'd guess the only time asanon gets off his backside would be to stagger out of the AWB for a coffee from the 'Republic'.


Additionally, even though he is probably on $180k plus, I'll bet that he's such a tight ar$e that he uses his corporate credit card for a $2.50 cup of coffee.

Oxygen Thief!!

[makespeed250kt]

put up or shut up.

If this troll is a manager, it pretty much sums up all that is wrong with Airshambles at the moment.

Strong, credible and accountable leadership!:yuk:

Yeah right...

[Plazbot]

You dudes have disappointed me by even replying to such a poster. Pretty obvious what the intent was and you guys are falling for it.

[BeGoneTFN]

If anything Plazbot, this goose has revived the thread, and for that I am thankful.

I must say that asanon does through his post remind me of a certain ML ALM, look forward to the next post to confirm. Cheers Bud!

Any comments about last friday in ML, apparently it was a disaster.

:O


Sorry to all those that pilot! But what can you do without staff?

[jj232]

you should of seen Saturday afternoon in Syd!!!!

Besides thunderstorms we had two people only for departures from 4pm till 10pm. Approach was missing two, sectors around us were going TIBA now and then and parts of our airspace was uncontrolled!!!!!

Aircraft must of put on so much extra fuel several needed very long downwinds just to get under max landing weight! Aircraft that would normally track via Ric or Kat outbound had to plan out via Wol or ENTRA as departures west was not manned. Absolute Shambles!!!!!!!!!!

[Plazbot]

Via Entra was unmanned from 6 for 20 minutes and 9:30-10 bris time with only 1 person for 3 sectors from 4pm then, the whole thing below class A was unmanned from 10pm till 5am.

[Baileys]

4 . AirServices Australia go uncontrolled

Ben Sandilands writes:

Last Friday afternoon for about two hours between Melbourne and Sydney, during the busiest of peak hours for the busiest air route in the country, thousands of passengers were trapped in jets or in terminals because AirServices Australia couldn't fully man the air traffic control system.

Crikey subscriber 'Peter' on board QF 448 to Sydney took notes....

As we finished boarding and the door was closed, the captain came on fairly quickly to advise us there was a problem with air traffic control and he was trying to get to the bottom of it.

There was a distinct and vocal response from passengers on the near-full flight. The captain reiterated it was a problem from AirServices Australia, beyond the control of anybody at Qantas.

We were updated that there was industrial action by controllers and it was unclear how long we would be delayed and that in the circumstances, we were free to turn on and use any 'electronic devices'.

Quite clearly aggrieved, the captain advised he was getting off the aircraft to make a number of calls and speak with the Qantas chief pilot. Upon his return, he addressed us again to advise that the chief pilot had instructed him not to fly in unmanned airspace. He explained the safety aspects, saying it involved taking risks Qantas wasn't prepared to take and supported his boss saying, "I applauded this decision."

The mood in the cabin was very supporting of Qantas notwithstanding the problems the delays were causing to us. He again pointed out it was not the fault of anyone at Qantas and there was nothing we could do, except to contact our politicians and call for them to fix this mess. I thought maybe there was something I could do right now, and I'd give it my best shot. I put a call in to Greg Russell, CEO of Airservices Australia.

I got through to the switch, and proceeded through a number of gatekeepers until I got to his PA, Andreas. He asked my name and what it was in relation to. I gave my name and explained I was passenger 46B on flight QF448, and that I was being held to ransom by the actions of his company.

Andreas sounded a bit miffed, as well as confused, advising me there was no industrial action today. I assured him I was encountering a significant delay on the tarmac, allegedly due to the lack of air traffic controllers. He mumbled something then informed me that Greg Russell "doesn't take these kind of calls and was sure there was no industrial action today" and asked me to hold.

I was finally put through to their corporate public affairs guy who humoured me and handled the call with courtesy as he explained his understanding of the situation. He conceded it could be either a genuine mass sick leave occurrence (perhaps some rabid and virulent strain of diarrhoea,) or it could be "covert industrial action, as we are in a collective bargaining period -- it has happened before." He even had a laugh when I suggested if it was found that this was covert industrial action, we return to public stoning -- it was Friday night after all.

Let's get this in perspective: all airspace on the Easter seaboard of Australia shut down from 4:30-6:30pm on a Friday night. Thousands of business travellers were held to ransom over something that has absolutely nothing to do with them.

The crew did their best to understand and accommodate the national and international flight connections of those on board, but the impact is real, for everybody. My colleague missed his son's first water polo grand final (they lost), another nearby passenger was going to miss a wedding in Singapore. The hostie had planned to watch a DVD with her hubby.

But Greg Russell didn’t want to hear about the personal impact of the failings of the business he runs.

Well Mr Russell, maybe if your time is so important not to take calls from the peasants being held hostage for two hours... because the business you are responsible for cannot deliver the service it is paid to deliver, perhaps you should at least humour them by drafting a form letter apologising to their families -- especially the kids -- for the little bits of life that are actually important to them that you caused their mum or dad to miss.

Or you could have a crack at fixing the business you are responsible for running.

Peter's notes are significant for other reasons. This is more evidence of the lies that are told by AirServices Australia and CASA about how not having controlled separation in our skies is safe. Qantas is telling them it is unsafe. It is AirServices major customer. It has had such a gut-full of nonsense over this it is mobilising its passengers to complain.

It is incredible in a modern nation that flights between the two largest cities can't be given reliable air traffic control. Russell claimed early last August the staffing problems would be over by the end of that month. He's the CEO. How could he get it so wrong? Does AirServices really expect people to believe it has been crippled by an industrial agreement negotiating process for a whole year of staffing screw ups?

It wasn't lack of dollars in pay packets that kept controllers away from Melbourne on Friday night, or away from Sydney, causing more widespread chaos on Saturday; it was lack of staff. AirServices hasn't managed its human resources. It slashed deeply into training and made errors in staff allocation. If it was just about the pay, no one would be left to man anything at AirServices. They would all be working for far better pay and conditions in Eire, Germany and the Middle East.

When is this curtain of bulldust going to drop away and compel the minister to confront this dangerous and unsatisfactory state of affairs in Australian air traffic control?

Perhaps as soon as tomorrow, when he releases the green paper on future aviation policy. Or will that also disappoint?

[boree3]

Oh my Gawd! You mean all those flights actually carry passengers! What, real people going places? :ugh:

Passenger 'Peter' only made one mistake. Friday arvo and he expected somebody to answer the phone in Canberra? Ever heard of 'POETS' day? C`mon, get real, only controllers are at work by 4.30 on a Friday arvo. The 'support' staff are all long gone for their weekend.:D

[undervaluedATC]

Plazbot... the whole thing below class A was unmanned from 10pm till 5am....

i have not checked the daysheets so I cannot be 100% certain, but usually the reason why airspace underneath (i.e. G/E etc) is unmanned is because the only replacement ATC available is a "journeyperson" without all the ratings/endorsements for the airspace group.

so, what's a journeyperson? see below:

Making an Air Traffic Controller:
after a selection/screening process that takes anywhere from 6 to 12 months, followed by 9 - 12 months in the academy (longer if they are bumped to be tgo's for a RAAF course) it normally takes about 3 months to get the 1st rating.

so anywhere from 1+1/2 to 2+1/4 years to turn a suitable person with no previous experience into an ATC.

Then the journeyperson is supposed to consolidate for 6 months before going for any more endorsements.

And of course, the individual can fail out at anytime, and the timeline is reset back to zero with the next candidate.

This length of time (1.5 to 2.25 years) required for training is unchanged since TFN became CEO 4 years ago.

But it is only halfway through this year that he suddenly started ramping up training intake.

Now do you see why there is a problem finding people to keep airspace open?

[max1]

Trueline,

There is a lot more to it than just 'supervisors' being put on AWAs.

TFN and co. offered the supervisory(ALM) roles ONLY on AWAs (politically driven) these positions replaced the team leader role.
Team leaders, on the whole , had extensive operational experience and time in the job. The ATS Line Manager (ALM) job would NOT be a position that involved actual controlling of aircraft but would involve a large increase in pay.
Quite a few of the team leaders had reservations about the positions and chose not to take them up. At the stroke of a pen in September 2007 we lost @100 controllers who were now 'managers'.

Some of these 'managers' had less than 2 years experience, some have had 'show cause' notices due to 'chequered' controlling careers, the experienced one are shaking their collective heads wondering why they ever took up the position in such a dysfunctional organisation.

And this is why passengers are sitting on tarmacs getting frustrated, because we never had the staff to go down the ALM path and TFN and his cronies are loath to admit that they forgot to do any staff planning and then exacerbated the problem with their SDE (Service Delivery Environment) project that spawned ALMs.

SDE, makes you laugh, doesn't it?

[Jet_A_Knight]

Saturday afternoon/evening was an absolute disgrace.

How does ASA management get away with it??

By the way, was the PM aboard the Envoy 737 that went through TIBA into YSCB?:eek:

[Jay Arr]

Yes, sounds like Sat arvo was a shambles.

A mate of mine flew out of SYD to HKG on a CX flight that afternoon. He reports that the plan went like this initially: SYD-WOL-CB-CWR-BKE-CMU, and then standard routings.... An extra 35 mins flight time. AND planned, yes, planned at FL200 until CMU due traffic/separation issues!

Sorry, this is Australia, isn't it, not Africa? ASA - heads need to roll all the way from the top.

[BeGoneTFN]

Max1,

Spot on, tells it as it is :D

Things will only get worse from here! :ugh: :(

[Sunfish]

There is a rumour that it already has got worse, and one person is dead as a result, but it is only a rumour.

[Funk]

Oh dear as much as I miss home and detest living in a high rise flat you would be hard pressed getting me or any of the other Australians working here coming back to that rubbish.

BTW we are opening new sectors to meet traffic demand and we have nearly all of the staff to man it despite the Global Finance meltdown.

Good luck fellas I hope it is all resolved in the new year and TFN has moved on to reinvent the wheel somewhere else ;)

[ER_BN]

Hey Sunfish,

What do you know?

A real death or just another AsA manager losing his head??

ER.

[ollie_a]

Looking through the Aviation Green Paper which has just been released, I noticed the following on page 62:

Ongoing investment in the maintenance and replacement of infrastructure and the recruitment and
retention of skilled personnel are necessary components of improved ATM.

The Government, through the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and
Local Government, outlines its priorities for Airservices in a publicly available Statement of
Expectations (Statement).

In conjunction with this Green Paper, the Government has issued a new Statement to the
Airservices Board.

The new Statement requires Airservices to focus on delivering core air traffic and aviation rescue
and fire fighting services. This is what the community and industry rightly expects Airservices to deliver best, not the pursuit of side or ancillary activities or overseas ventures.

Interesting... I wonder if the government is expecting Airservices to alter the way it does business.

[ferris]

Well that will dovetail nicely with the recent tour of various overseas locations by a gent from AsA, the purpose of which was to explain to potential "customers" that AsA couldn't, in fact, deliver on any projects etc. due to a LACK OF STAFF.

Interesting customer relations management- travelling around door-to-door telling people what you can't do.

The bosses were scratching their heads, but those of us with more experience of AsA were pissing ourselves.

[max1]

When will ASA wake up that their 'growing the global brand' is just a pipe dream.

After studying the last ten years worth of Annual Reports, it is a consistent fact that 95% of revenue is earned from Airways Activity from the provision of ATC and ARFF in Australia.

In the 2005 Annual Report the Chairman Nic Burton-Taylor stated

"Specifically, while we are now processing 49 per cent more aircraft movements, our prices have been reduced over the decade by more than 30 per cent in real terms."

In 97/98 total revenue was $606.9m and airways revenue $580.1m or 95.6%.

In 07/08 total revenue was $744m and airways revenue was $707.3m or 95.1%.
These percentages are consistent over the 10 years.

It wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination to work out that for the amount of money that ASA has spent on setting up offices, and travelling, in Dubai, China, and several other cities around the world that they haven't got much bang for their ( the airlines) buck. Correspondingly the increase in executive remuneration hasn't done much for ASA.

I would think that most of the other income over this time period would come from the usual things like Airways publications, interest, etc. They started stating figures like 2-4 million dollars revenue from OS contracts but have gone quiet in the last few years. There are no profits stated from the management of the the US towers which would indicate that there are no profits (loss?). They don't show what 'growing the global brand' costs, or what it returns.

As ASA management would be loathe to state that they got the US FAA, UK NATS, or Airways NZ in to assist them with a problem. So it could be assumed that other countries ANSP would be loathe to have it trumpeted around the world that they had to get ASA in to fix things up for them. Nationalistic egos at play, and very hard to justify your management position when you require other sovereign ANSPs in to tell you how to do things.

ANSPs don't have a problem with paying 'independent' consultants be they ex-ANSPs staff, but it is perceived as an admission of ineptitude if they need to get another sovereign ANSP in to tell them how to fix their problems. They don't do it.

The one area they could have actually MADE money would be training controllers, as Qantas have done with pilots for other airlines. Unfortunately one of the first things TFN did when he got here was streamline (gut) the training area even though he had been warned that staffing was a critical area that must be addressed. Those chooks are now coming home to roost.

When will management realise that 95% of their revenue comes from the airlines, Qantas group around the $400+ million, and Virgin around $130 million, and start looking after the airlines by staffing the place properly.

In 98 there were 9 Public Affairs officers and 1174 controllers, there are no figures in the 08 report for spin doctors but am told that Corporate Relations has 50 now.
There is a quoted figure of 971 controllers, however this seems at odds with ASAs quoted figure of 930 at the AIRC, and the 889 that they need but don't have, that I was told by a senior manager last week. It is actually less than 800 talking to aircraft.

If we take into account the increase in traffic, and the reduction in charging by the Chairman in the 05 report you have a fair idea of where ASA management has erred rather badly. Traffic has further gone up since that time.

95% of ASA income has nothing to do with any outstanding managerial skill on TFN and co's part and everything to do with the airlines growing their business. And what do the airlines and travelling public get for that?

The GM ATC has admitted that it will take AT LEAST 2 years to dig ourselves out of this hole, I think somewhat longer, and that is only if controllers bother hanging around and have any goodwill towards ASA.

[Baileys]

There could be no doubt in any persons mind that Airservices is run by a bunch of incompetent fools.

Incompetent....
1. Inadequate for or unsuited to a particular purpose or application.
2. Devoid of those qualities requisite for effective conduct or action.

Fool...
1. One who is deficient in judgment, sense, or understanding.
2. One who acts unwisely on a given occasion.
3. One who has been tricked or made to appear ridiculous; a dupe.

Somebody please do something!!

[BeGoneTFN]

Baileys

Hate to say it, but we reached and passed the PNR a long time ago, the problem was that not one person in management realised this fact.

Those I pass on the way out the door (to the life boats) will assume the rank of ALM (captain), this is what I suspect we will begin to witness very shortly.

Slow motion train wreck stuff. :{

[make-mine-a-Coopers]

I have copied the following - verbatim - from the Civil Air Australia - Home (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/) member's forum. If any of those that fly on a regular basis could pass this on to their colleagues, then that would obviously be appreciated.

"Hi All,

With all the TIBA and staffing problems at Airservices, more anecdotes are surfacing where pilots are blaming delays on ATC to the pax. Nothing particularly new here, and we have a thick skin when it comes to this, although this time pilots are making specific claims of "Industrial action by ATC" on their PAs.

Would you mind somehow passing the message around to your colleagues that:

- ATC is not undertaking industrial action, nor work-to-rule, or anything like that
- ATC is doing lots of overtime and shift extensions and in many cases maximum legal hours
- Airservices management have progressively cut staff to the point where there is not only no spare capacity (standby shifts) but there are whole roster lines that require overtime to fill

In most cases where TIBA occurs, it is because there is one controller working alone and requires a fatigue break before returning to the console

Airservices spins the staff shortages as "staff non-availability" ... meaning ATCs on rec leave or rostered days off weren't available to come in at short notice.

This, apparently, is why we're being taken to the AIRC to work mandatory overtime.

I'm sure you guys know the drill, but if you can get this message posted to your crew notice boards it'd be appreciated.

Would be great if you could forward this to at least four flying friends - we are all getting tired of this crap."
.........

As is said, "we are ALL getting tired of this crap". That 'all' includes the ATCs; the aircrew, the cabin crew and other airline staff; the ancilliary airport and surrounding support individuals that are affected; the airline shareholders; AND don't forget, THE PASSENGERS - that is the ultimate CUSTOMERS that are at the receiving end of this whole 'kin debacle.

The only ones who aren't concerned are the CEO of Airservices Australia (and what a misnomer that is for a company name), and his coterie that thrive on the outrageous bonuses that are garnered from the fact that the reduced staff numbers that they have engineered have therefore increased THEIR OWN personal salary packages.

What 'kin hypocrites they are...

I'm as mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it any more...

[peuce]

Hey Griffo, have a look at this !

If things are that crook and if there's no end in sight, how about a quick, and possibly temporary, fix:


Separate G Airspace from all other Airspace
Resectorise everything else ... "Controlled Airspace"
Funnel all Controllers into new re-sectorized "Controlled Airspace"
Recruit a mixture of Ex and New FSOs to look after Class G Airspace



Question 1: Would there then be enough Controllers to cover Controlled Airspace? ... I don't know

Question 2: Would it be easier to attract and recruit "FSOs" than it has been to recruit Controllers? ... my guess, Yes.

Question 2: How long would it take to recruit, train and provide facilities for the new staff?

My estimate ... 12 months.

There's probably a million reason why it wouldn't work, but desperate times require desperate measures ... and I bet someone with enough lateral thinking, guts and planning skill could pull it off.

In fact, it may be the only long term solution if we continue to be unable to attract trainee controllers.

[somniferous]

To give the instructors their due, the vast majority are good at their job and try their hardest with limited resources.

It might have been easier for them this year if they didn't try to take so many trainees in just so that they could say that "they have put 100 through the college (learning academy - I mean really!!) this year"

When there isn't enough classrooms to house the students and not enough instructors to ensure that the students are recieving the appropriate amount of attention for the training that they are trying to achieve then the instructors are behind from the beginning.

[undervaluedATC]

peuceHey Griffo, have a look at this !

If things are that crook and if there's no end in sight, how about a quick, and possibly temporary, fix:

Separate G Airspace from all other Airspace
Resectorise everything else ... "Controlled Airspace"
Funnel all Controllers into new re-sectorized "Controlled Airspace"
Recruit a mixture of Ex and New FSOs to look after Class G Airspacepuece, one of the things the SDE project did was divide sectors into predominantly upper (class A) and lower (G/E) work groups. Broadly speaking, the more experienced (i.e. higher up the payscale, more expensive) controllers were pencilled in for the lower airspace.

It has occured to more than one of us that should it come to pass that Class G airspace is no longer looked after by ATC (say for example, because of a lack of staff) then TFN could solve his staffing problem and reduce his wage bill all at once.


but obviously that's just paranoia talking.

the situation would never be allowed to eventuate.

Right? :sad: :( :{



.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

"I Have A Dream........."

And,......It Works!!!

(Well, it would, IF................):eek::eek:

And, THAT's a True Story!:ok::ok:

[oziatc]

If it all goes very pear shaped.
I'd speculate that AsA could shut all GA towers and transfer staff to essential (fare paying and profitable) areas.

Sadly poor GA would cop it again!

My guess is CASA would have a fit and it would only ever happen if the Minister stepped in!

[max1]

Oziatc,

There are not the resources to train the GAAP towers people in the sim, let alone in the room, in a 12 month time period.
Most Simulator training exercises haven't been updated in years due to lack of staff. Controllers can't be released to do the work due staff shortages.
The sim training packages no longer properly reflect what goes on in the real world. The STAR's and procedures have moved on, the simulator courses are woefully out of date.
Instructors have to tell the trainees that they will do it different in the operations room, that is of course if they actually get an instructor in the sim.

VH-ASA, operating under VFR, was given the marginal weather update about 5 years ago. The then PIC was already operating with minimum fuel. Three years ago TFN took over PIC duties and was told of 8/8 along his course and insufficient fuel to reach destination. TFN pushed on regardless, jettisoned his instruments and radios (too much weight, need to be streamlined) and reverted to his version of IFR (SDE) procedures. He is not rated for these procedures and is hoping for a break in the weather.

Unfortunately the valley he has flown into has now got weather behind. His mobile is still working and he has assured his company (Minister Albanese and CASA) that everything is fine, he has enough fuel (it's just in the wrong tanks, i.e. in the bowser back at BP) and his SDE rated flight crew are on top of the problem and they will land on time.

He has also jettisoned the crew members who threw out the instruments and radios (on his instruction) to further lighten the load. He has now donned the parachute (golden), just in case, as he now realises he is in IMC and his SDE procedures aren't working. He is broadcasting over the PA to the passengers (airlines, media and controllers) that the turbulence they are encountering is due to ATC and nothing to do with his flying skills. He is also wondering why everything from the floor is now resting above him, and his tie is flapping in front of his face.

It's called the graveyard spiral.

Stay tuned, some actually get out of it, but it plays merry hell with the aircraft.

[missy]

oziatc said If it all goes very pear shaped.
I'd speculate that AsA could shut all GA towers and transfer staff to essential (fare paying and profitable) areas.

Even if this happended overnight, a % of staff wouldn't want to transfer and would resign. And with the significant differences between GAAP and other facets of ATC; Regional, Towers, Radar Towers, Approach and Departures, Enroute Radar, Enroute Non-Radar a conversion course would be requried.

These conversions courses would be a minimum of three weeks and then there would be on-the-job training required, a minimum of four months. And this assumes that there are Simulator and On-the-job Instructors available. Some groups are at the point that they can't take trainees because there is no capacity to train them.

There is no simple solution.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

G'Day 'Mr 'Undervalued'...

Re "It has occured to more than one of us that should it come to pass that Class G airspace is no longer looked after by ATC (say for example, because of a lack of staff) then TFN could solve his staffing problem and reduce his wage bill all at once."

That actually rings a bell.....from the deep and distant past...

Was it not part of the 'Great TAAAAATS Plan', when it was first unveiled, all those years ago, to 'assume' the management of adjacent FIR airspaces, Upper Levels only, by contract, thereby selling 'our TAAAATS expertise' to those less fortunate countries who did not possess this wunnerful system......and make lots of $$$'s??

There was / is no reason that the system cannot manage this half of the planet's airspace - Upper Levels only thankyou - from BN / ML - just like it does now.
i.e. Our 'bros' would not need an Upper Level ATC system at all, thus saving them many many $$'s in infrastructure, staff, etc - they would simply pay AsA for the services provided?

If I recall, the theory expressed then was that AsA would concentrate on Upper Level Airspace only - 'cause that's where the $$'s are!
Heavy Metal En Route Air Nav Charges are much more productive than 'bug smasher' material. Its the $$$'s you see.....

Maybe the wheel has not yet stopped turning........

Gee....or did I mean 'G'......:}:}

Keep smiling.....

[Plazbot]

So what is the go? 2 weeks out from expiration of the EBA. Airservices offered anything yet? What's going on with the IRC thingy on reasonable OT?

[peuce]

Now before I thrust my latest metaphor out there .. this is all predicated on the assumption that ASA does NOT have a cunning plan to get back on track within a year ... so I could be worrying about nothing ...

I see ASA as a Restaurant ... however, all the jobs are being done by trained Chefs!

They are now finding they are short of, and can't train enough new Chefs.

What would a normal Restaurant do ? If it was me, I would hire some kitchen hands to do some of the tasks that a full Chef's capabilities aren't required for. Then I would consolidate my remaining Chefs onto the tasks that really need their expertise. Not only is it more efficient, but I'll probably save a bit of money in the long run.

But what would I know about running a restaurant ...?

[Jabawocky]

max1 :D

I have read that book you are writing above and here is the next chapter, expand on it as you wish :ok:

VH-ASA has now peaked its IAS at the Coffin Corner..........................

J:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Dear Mr Peuce..........

E X A C T L Y ! ! !

:ok::ok:

[Plazbot]

Blah blah. What I would do. What should be done. All a waste of breath. How about what is actually happening? Any news from the IRC?

[undervaluedATC]

Plazbot, ironically (or maybe not so much) something else that was judged to be more important came up in the IRC so the hearing was postponed, with no date set as yet.

That's right, the IRC did not want to do overtime to make a ruling about whether we should be doing overtime.

As for the EBA, even if AsA had made a half-palatable offer (which they most definitely have NOT) there is no way we could have an AEC vote and sign off on it in the next two weeks. So after 15 negotiation (for want of a better word) and 6 months, we are as far from agreement as we ever were, if not more so.

Ex FSO Griffith, as others have pointed out, a lot of ATC'ers agree that we are well past the PNR for having enough qualified, available field trainers to instruct newbies (or even oldies). - which is kind of the point I was making in the previous post - how did this situation develop this far?

[peuce]

Plazbot,

You may be correct in tutt, tutting what ifs or why nots or why don't theys ... in favour of what IS happening ...

But my point is ... there are/were ways to deal with the situation ... even if it's to provide no services in G Airspace ...

The what IS happening ... just isn't!

So, we may as well talk of what might have been ....

[Plazbot]

We are all confused mate. if ever there should have been a CA that was straight up and straight forward it was this one. Increases recognising legit cost of living plus at least a token gesture to recognise staff retention and close the book. It is however the most hostile effort they have had so far and towards a work force that is actually helping them:rolleyes:

Stupid

c
u
n
t
s

[make-mine-a-Coopers]

Max1 - as always, spot on the money and good for a larf...

Plazbot - that's one way to get it through the filters. PS - I concur...

mmaC

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hey 'Plaz'....

We ALL recognise - well those who still have the interest / capacity to 'think' about solutions do - that the present 'system' is in deep doodoo!

The only was out is to 'priortise' duties / functions - and let the 'Chefs' do the cheffing, and others less qualified perform the minor functions - for the next whenever until adequate staff are Rated and Available 'on the floor'.

Any other ideas?? (I'm not Einstein, but then, it isn't 'rocket science' either...)

It really will not matter much about the IRC O/T issue when the last man out turns the lights OFF i.e. there are no 'Chefs' left to perform the 'Cheffing'. (Is that a word?) As must happen in the foreseeable future if the present stagnation of training continues...

Attrition / age factor / greener pastures...you name it!

I reckon you're on the right track Mr Peuce....'tis indeed a pity you do not have 'influence' where it is needed...

UNless, the real plan is to 'consolidate' to Upper Level functions which will require less staff.

Good Luck To All!!:ok::ok:

[kam16]

Plazbot the IRC dates off Civilair web site

December
15/16 Reasonable Hours
18 ALM restructure redundancy/redeployment
19 (I think) Letter of Commitment and pre 0600 starts

All before Commissioner Bacon on Melbourne

[Plazbot]

Thanks kam:ok:

[undervaluedATC]

(with thanks/apologies to STARWARS)

Happening at this time in an airspace not so far away:

YouTube - Crawl (http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=MvEigxxV-wk)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

How true...but how sad,,,,,

Dear Mr Albanese,

'Houston - we have a problem'.....:sad::eek:

[Here to Help]

Help me Tony Albanese, you're my only hope...

[Robbovic]

Spare a thought in all this for collegues in other arms of the service, particularly TAS.
Due to a familiar tale of ignorance, greed and unwillingness to face facts, these people are more and more under the gun. There are now a number of projects competing for fewer and fewer resources. TFN has made promises to industry that have made each of these endeavors believe that they have priority and so we have a situation where this thin blue line of technical staff is being counted on by competing projects. There is also the all too familiar story of experience walking out the door without so much as a backward glance. It is scary how many single points of failure there are in the organisation because of lack of planning for succession.

Returning to an earlier analogy, it is looking more and more like the Russion Front in this place - troops being counted a number of times, leaders flying in and out exhorting the troops to greater effort, the organisation in full retreat (overseas projects, ASDB equipage etc).

One wonders what will be its Stalingrad - the CA maybe??

[max1]

ASA only have a succession 'plan' for management.
They continue to create layers of them, all tied to TFN. They are given large payrises (golden handcuffs) to toe the TFN line.
No-one is willing to point out the deficiencies in the SDE debacle that has led us to where we are.

[ML Pornstar]

What seems perfectly apparent to me (and others) is that the situation will arise where there simply aren't enough bodies to fill the seats (particularly after the mass exodus from Aisle 3 in ML occurs). How do you solve this?

You staff for certain (busy) times of the day. No service at other times (a variation on the stop "G" service mentioned earlier).

Of course, it won't be politically palatable - but I bet the bigwigs at QFA & VOZ etc would prefer it to what they're currently being offered...

That's the reality of the mess that TFN has engineered, watched by all those gutless people under him. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Dick Smith]

CASA has told the operators of Newcastle airport that Air Traffic Control is not required over the Christmas period.

Our military controllers even manned the tower at Baghdad over the Christmas period so it is obvious they are happy to work when they are told lives can be saved.

All of this is to save about 40 cents per passenger to the Airlines.

Avalon with about 1.5 million PAX per year still hasn't got any local ATC.

CASA has developed a unique safety metric based on guesswork rather than historical data and they refuse to have the results validated.

In effect they will be encouraging even less ATC and more airspace relying "calling in the blind " announcements.

Why? You may ask. Remember the wheat board fiasco - bureaucrats went down a dishonest path when there was no real reason for doing so.

I bet there will be a lot more TIBA under the current management of the Office Of Airspace Regulation.

[BeGoneTFN]

ML Pornstar,

Hope you have the MO to go with that user name.

When do the ailse 3 guys go, where are they going, Ireland or Germany, how many are refusing to go down with the ship? SHIRKERS!

Is this why up to 60 shifts cannot be covered on one group alone before the end of January?

Apparently ML TMA have 6 holes in the roster tomorrow, and its not due to anything other than short staffing!!!!!!!!! :sad:

There are probably only 12 TMA guys rostered each day, what a fiasco!

Dick,

Was told by a guy the other day Avalon CTR had 6 acft all within 5nm of the RWY this included two jets one of which was a 737 training flight, frightening stuff! :(

BEGONE TFN :{

[Robbovic]

CASA knows (or should know) perfectly well what goes on with TIBA.
Only a matter of a couple of months ago, two of their procedures people, both ex-ATC, spent a week in ML observing what happens during TIBA procedures.This occurred a couple of times, particularly when CB APP was understaffed.
Word was they were appalled at what went on.

Not a dicky bird since though.

[oziatc]

At least if CASA have had representatives see TIBA in action there is no denying joint culpability if the time comes to stand before a coroner's court.
(Let's hope it never happens!)

[ML Pornstar]

BGTFN,

Hope you have the MO to go with that user name.

Perhaps!

When do the ailse 3 guys go, where are they going, Ireland or Germany, how many are refusing to go down with the ship?

1 already to Ireland, 4 Will be gone by April to DFS, 1 retirement, 2 resignations (leaving ATC), 1 compassionate transfer/resignation if not granted, 1 transfer to ML TMA. The West R roster has 54 blank shifts on the next roster - this is simply due to not enough bums on seats.

I know for a fact that ML TMA has dropped leave lines to cover their staffing shortage.

The place is an absolute shambles.:eek::eek::eek:

[Marauder]

Dear Mr CASA, are you going to stand there with your head so far up your own @rse, that you f@rt out of your armpits.

When the inevitable serious incident or worse accident occurs, because of ASAs inability to provide sufficient rated controllers to provide a Safe, Orderly and Expeditious flow of traffic, what will CASAs answer be, we didn't know, or we can't be everywhere. (Familiar Ring about that)

You have been told, you know where to look, CASA will be just as culbable as Air Services. Where in your Charter does it say that AirServices is exempt from your surveillence, or sanctions.

The do nothing attitude is

A) incompetence,
B) laziness,
C) criminally liable
D) Other
E) All of the above

Oh dear, a new CEO, New Name, and CASA will ride out of it again


:ugh:

[PlankBlender]

Rather than addressing the problem, CASA seems to be content curing the symptoms:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Flights at Newcastle airport over the holiday season will operate safely.
An effective and appropriate set of procedures has been developed by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority to provide safe operations while normal weekday air traffic control facilities are not available.
More information is available on the CASA website: Media release - Newcastle airport operates safely (http://www.casa.gov.au/media/2008/08-12-10.htm)

[undervaluedATC]

In Brisbane, the number leaving/giving notice in the next 3 months is more than the number of trainees starting - none of whom can be counted as any fraction of a full time equivalent ATC until they pass the training.... :ooh::oh:

[AirBumps]

When is the next training course? Are there people in training at present? How long does the course take?

[oziatc]

About 12 months for initial course. Assuming there are enough instructors to train the students. Someone just out of the college can probably advise you on more of the detail ie. accurate times for course and pay structure not forgetting the training bond!
Field placement till first rating approx 2-3 months. 4-6 months till usable on a journeyman rosterline.
Approx 9mths to 2 years to fulfill all endorsements for unit.
At least 2 years to begin to feel comfortable doing the job.

[undervaluedATC]

Airbumps: When is the next training course? Are there people in training at present? How long does the course take?

2009 is already full up (on paper) for training courses. - Whether people wait for the course or take another job before then may affect that outlook however.

Yes there are people training at present - length depends on whether your'e experienced (eg. RAAF/ Overseas ATC = short course 3 months or so) or off the street (anywhere from 9 to 12 months)

The stated aim is to train 100 people a year - BUT the attrition/pass rate is historically between 30 to 50% - so best case, we get 50 field trainees during 2009. But then there's a bottleneck in the field - you can only train 1 or maybe 2 trainees on a specific airspace sector at a time (they can't both be giving instructions/talking to planes simultaneously) [and that's IF you can spare the staff to train the person].

Also, the pass rate for final field training is still only about 50-75%, so maybe we might have 38 journeyman controllers by the end of next year (best case).

Who then have to consolidate for 6 months on that rating before they can start to train on another adjacent airspace sector - but how can they do that when we are still trying to get future new trainees (ie. 2010) their first rating?

And all the while our ATC workforce with a median age of 52 is getting older and closer to retirement (and a significant percentage of which are eligible for early retirement at 55)

To say nothing of people moving overseas to better terms/and or conditions.

And yet AsA today, after 6 months and 16 "negotiation" meetings finally admitted that they think their offer of 4% (in exchange for substantial losses of terms and conditons) is 'fair & reasonable' which they will not try to improve.

Because they are the only employer in Australia they seem to think retention is not an issue.:{

[BeGoneTFN]

ML Pornstar,

You are a legend :cool: , wish I had thought of that user!

Although mine despite being ignored thus far has meaning

i.e :mad: off TFN

BgTFN

[dabelstein]

Someone feel like posting some rosters or daysheets with the gaps in them?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Coral....

As said in another 'place'......

Just a little to the SW of the "H" in 'Here' would do nicely.....
PERMANENTLY!!!

NOTAMN - YSCB - TIBA PERM!!

:}:}

Hello, Mr Albanese......as in "HOUSTON, We Have A Problem..."

[mikk_13]

Check out the new toy on the net.

Airservices Australia - Aircraft Noise - WebTrak Locations (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aviationenvironment/noise/webtrak/locations.asp)

cost 20 million.

[Pat Mcgroin]

Easily paid for from the savings on the travel budget with the departure of the GM Business Developement. :ok::D

[ER_BN]

Gosh hasn't TFN been so unlucky with the quality of his GMs.

Now if he had chosen them maybe the GMs are not the problem but him....Hang on, he did!!

[max1]

Last day for a checkie this Wednesday, off to Ireland.
Another retiring this Friday, had enough, going early.
Retirement and leaving drinks for 5 in Sydney last Tuesday.
Good luck to all.
Others waiting for EBA outcomes to make decisions.
One was asked in Brisbane by manager about their intentions and the reply was "You'll be the last to know"

"There are no Americans in Baghdad"

[blind freddy]

with the departure of the GM Business Developement.

Has there been another exit from the Departure Lounge?
I haven't heard. Please tell me it is the GSH? Please......

[ER_BN]

GSH was not and hopefully never will be a GM even though TFN treats him like his first born....

No, this time it is WE, yep the manager of the Departure Lounge has departed!

Rumours have it the Departure Lounge will be closed down??

As it never had any staff to mix the drinks when anyone asked for one...

[Pat Mcgroin]

we all know GSH is incompetant but WE was taken down by finacial irregularities and sadly not general business competance:ugh:

[boree3]

WE? Could someone enlighten those of us out in the GAFA who the f@r Ca*al WE is?.

Still happy to see him/her go though! TFN your time approaches....

WTF is a 'Departure Lounge'? I thought we only had more and more arrivals at AWB....:ugh:

[BeGoneTFN]

Boree,

Can't help with WE, couple of guesses at the departure lounge.

NOC shop and SMG, both appear to be good for nothing.

GSH must be an excellent fluffer!

BeGTFN

[ER_BN]

The "departure lounge" is the AsA Business Unit called "Business Development" and "WE" was the General Manager.

Called the "departure lounge" for the astute observation that when any manager from any other business unit takes a job there, they leave the company soon afterwards!

"WE" was supposed to be TEFLONed due to some special relationship with the CEO but previous posts refer to some strange financial dealings. No idea asking around BN Centre except the country "Phillipines" gets mentioned???

[max1]

Things that TFN has overseen that do bugger-all and cost a whack.
1. Azimuth , Airspace and sundry publications.
2. National Operations Centre (NOC shop)
3. International Offices (to grow the 'brand' globally. WTF)
4. Webtrak
5. Taking away about 100 operational controllers and making them ATS Front Line Managers (ALMs) now costing the industry around $180-200k each.
6. The oh so inaptly named Service Delivery Environment (SDE) project, that has delivered nothing but inefficiencies.
7. The 'streamlining' of the training area. Which was streamlined to such an extent it pretty much ceased to function.

Feel free to add.

[Slugfest]

Max1

8. 19 redundacies from Ausfic as a result of the Ausfic Services Review.
9. Recruiting staff to work in Ausfic before all the 19 redundacies from Ausfic as a result of the Ausfic Services Review had actually left ASA.

Slug

[FL400]

Ausfic

'Centre what's the VHF Flightwatch frequency around here?'
'It was removed, now it's the ATC frequency'
'Oh well okay request TTF Melbourne'
'Unable due workload'

:ugh:

[TrafficTraffic]

............?

Surely from FL400 you could see Melbourne.

TT

[Baileys]

So what's all this about....any truth or just a rumour...?

Crikey...

Minister Albanese (and the government) has become sick of the Air Traffic Control battle in the skies. He has set a meeting between the parties scheduled for this Wednesday; both unions and employer representatives will be present at the "round table".

Apparently they are planning to get tough with the "renegade union" who is enforcing sick outs as a covert way of placing industrial pressure on the government and it's employer of controllers -- Airservices Australia. A MUA style power break up is on the cards and they are planning to crush that "pissy little union" (Civil Air) to prove that whilst the government is giving more rights to workers they actually are tough on unions.

[Adamastor]

What a truly silly little circle this is.

1) Airservices cut staff, mismanage and screw controllers during a period of record growth and profit.
2) Airlines and passengers suffer the fallout.
3) Airlines pressure Minister For Qantas.
4) Minister For Qantas pressures Airservices.
5) Go to 1).
6) Repeat ad infinitum.

And to think there is such a simple solution.....

:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{:{

[Howabout]

Nah, I can't believe that a minister of the Crown would be so stupid as to unquestioningly accept arguments to the effect that you guys are a bunch of recalcitrant, irresponsible, agenda-driven, selfish and safety-threatening bustards.

After all, you've got to be smart to be a minister and, by implication, you'd have to be smarter still to be an advisor to the minister, in order to tell the minister what it is the minister should be thinking.

On the other hand.....

[Slugfest]

Howabout,

Maaaate,

You have to be organised to have a conspiracy.

Pleaaaaaase tell me that you at not alleging that these mobs are organised!

Coz if you are, you are giving them waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much credit!!!!:)

[Baileys]

Can anyone actually confirm if this 'meeting' is happening?

I guess, either way, someone leaked the story to Crikey. Controller/manager relations are quite obviously very bad - amazing given all the 'courses' these 'managers' seem to do.

How does AsA manage to attract any employees with this kind of relationship out in the public eye?

[boree3]

Many of us are in the same (leaky) boat Owen but are suffering extreme fatigue, even if FAID says we`re good to go. Time to take my fatigue into me own hands from the 22nd! Ah, the serenity of a mobile on 'silent'....:ugh:

[BeGoneTFN]

Boree,

My mobile has been on silent for a while now.

Most have simply had enough, there's only so much you can take from an employer with an attitude as displayed by ASA to its most important resource, its people!

The expectation for overtime is now way to great. Its not all one way! I have a life!

Lets begin the end game!

[BeGoneTFN]

Like it Owen,

Make the man your bitch! :}

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

If this meeting with the Minister is scheduled for 'this' Wed. is that for Wed 17.12.08?

i.e Tomorrow??

Then you / your Union, hasn't much time to prepare a factual statement to repudiate the 'expected arguments'.


'Owen' has the best idea to commence with I would say.

Numerous copies of worked ROSTERS / Day Sheets, Projected Rosters showing ALL blanks etc would certainly go a long way to making your Initial point.

This is your BIG chance I reckon to set the record straight and get a commitment FROM the Minister as to what is going to happen from here....

i.e. Serve it up, as it is, a 'straight serve' and let your 'CEO' explain himself.

Obvious I know, but this is meant as a comment of support - I do not wish to be / sound patronising in any way.

GOOD LUCK!!!:ok::ok:

[C-change]

You are all members of the Aust. Public and are entilted to speak to the elected representatives of Gov. anytime you wish. We don't have red stars on the buildings yet.

Ask him would he like to here the corporate spin version or the version from the shop floor.

Remember the impression Terry the plumber left on Obama !

Good luck to you all.

[TrenShadow]

End of August it was supposed to be mate :ugh:

Must make today roughly the 139th of August then?

[Sunfish]

At this supposed meeting, if it occurs, ferchrissake take notes.

TFN will have "briefed" the Minister and his staff to the eyeballs, and he isn't going to believe your representatives at all, because he isn't the sharpest knife in the set, and, being a Minister, he has to make decisions on the basis of the advice given to him by his Department, and they are going to tow the AsA line for sure.

In my opinion. your only hope is to repeat over and over again your mantra about staff numbers being critical due to fatigue and excessive overtime, and that even if your pay is doubled, it ain't going to make a difference.

My guess is that you are going to come away empty handed or worse, and that the accident that is inevitably going to occur will claim the Ministers scalp as well.

[Casper]

Can't you guys take your worksheets to the media? Don't let the lying crooks in management avoid having their BS exposed!

[Plazbot]

What time is said meeting taking place?

[Baileys]

...And they just might have got the theory correct...

Crikey...

The tip about a meeting between Minister Albanese, Airservices Australia & the Air Traffic Controllers Association Civil Air had many scratching their heads today in the perpetually understaffed ATC Centres. Why would the government and a government body want to antagonise a workforce that is holding the ATC system together only through massive amounts of overtime, at a time when the holiday season is approaching, no serious new contract has been offered and its workforce are leaving for overseas positions with double the salary on offer?

There is only one logical answer -- Airservices and the government don't want agreement on a new contract because it would show that the whole false campaign about renegade controllers taking sickies was a complete fabrication. A signed contract would not see a stop to the airspace closures, because they have in fact been caused by reckless mismanagement by Airservices Australia and an intentional running down of staff numbers in the interests of profits and management bonuses.

It is a cynical ploy from an executive that doesn't understand its own core business, or the consequences of its actions upon the air safety of Australia. It is going to take another three to five years minimum to recover from the destruction of intellectual resources that have occurred recently. By manufacturing a dispute where none exists, the incompetents who reside in the Alan Woods building can deflect the eventual hard questions and media criticism a little longer -- on the very people they need to keep the remnants of a broken system together.

[Howabout]

I wouldn't hold my breath wating for the aviation "specialists" from The Australian or other mainstream press to do anything resembling 'investigative reporting", including asking hard, pointed questions.

Sandilands appears to be the only scribe around who's willing to dig a bit. As for the rest, I think "public interest" and "truth" are foreign concepts.

I think there's a story here that would unearth some embarrassing facts, if what I've read is correct - and I don't doubt it is; particularly the longstanding predictions by the union regarding shortages. My take is that this is Tricky Dicky stuff. Unfortunately, we don't have a mainstream reporter that could find the aviation equivalent of his ass with both hands.

[undervaluedATC]

Okay, to make it easy for the journalists to investigate this claim of "Sick-outs" by controllers that keeps getting used as an excuse for service interruptions:

What follows is excerpts from a publicly available document from the government website on senate estimates committees:

http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/estimates/bud_0809/infra/attachments/aa04attach.pdf

(obviously the colouring for emphasis is my own)

4 (f) Average sick leave days per controller
....................................2005/06 ............2006/07 ............2007/08
No. of controllers .............981 .....................983..................... 971
Total sick leave days... 12,123 ...............13,401 .................13,509
Average per controller. 12.36 ..............13.63.................. 13.91


Okay, so controller numbers decreased but there was a slight increase in sick leave on average. perhaps there is some basis for these accusations?

Let's look a little harder before we jump to any conclusions:

4 (a) Total unplanned absence days - all air traffic controllers
.....................................2005/06........... 2006/07.............. 2007/08
Sick leave....................... 12,123 ...............13,401 ..............13,509
Personal Leave............. 1,525 .................1,500 ..................1,629
........................................13,648.............. 14,902 ................15,138

Again, an increase. wow, maybe there is a trend.

But Wait!!!

4 (d) Total sick leave days taken by air traffic controllers by duration
..............................................2005/06 ...............2006/07 ..............2007/08
Single day .................................6,119 .....................6,548 .................5,683
Between 2 & 10 days ..............4,845................... 5,004................... 5,130
Greater than 10 days ..............1,159................... 1,848 ...................2,697
...................................................12,123 .................13,401 .................13,509


What's this? Single day absences - what Senator McGuaran alluded to as "sickies" in a senate hearing - ACTUALLY DECREASED BY 865.

And there was an increase of more than 800 cases of sick leave lasting 10 days or more. But guess what? That kind of sick leave gets looked at VERY CLOSELY by the employer, and needs doctors certificates to support it. (in fact, 2 or more days needs a doctors certificate) It also suggests that some people were seriously sick for extended periods - WHICH is another reason why the actual number of available controllers is in dispute. You cannot count people on long term sick leave as available staff.

What we have is an decreasing number of aging staff.
There is no "sick-out"

[Baileys]

But...

Isn't there a huge difference between the number of Air Traffic Controllers claimed by both sides?

Isn't it true that AsA management count ATC numbers as including project staff, training staff and other so-called ATC's that do not actually 'plug in' and do ATC?

What are the real numbers. You guys have to follow this through. Make the truth known. It is possible to expose this huge lie but you have to get the details out to the right people. You should make it your mission to expose this lie and never give up until those that created it are exposed and removed.

Keep up the work you UndervaluedATC.

[Baileys]

Is it also true that legally required regular training has not been completed for many ATC's - all because of lack of staff.

Airservices has become a world wide laughing stock. Surely all those 'managers' in Canberra don't mind a little accountability for all their big dollars.

Expose all the lies before you all get shafted again.

[Hempy]

Is it also true that legally required regular training has not been completed for many ATC's - all because of lack of staff.

Well that depends who you talk to. My best advice is to walk into the sim and ask the people on the ground (and who actually know).

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

So, how did the 'meeting' go....??

Anybody??

[redleader78]

I hope that the controllers get some joy soon.

I just hope it is not the organization setting you up for another situation like the pilot strike under the hawke era. Destroying your collective to formulate your eba. Just starting to smell a bit like that situation.

I once applied for an air services Australia trainee ATC Job. I was put on a 12 months eligibilty list. Was prepared to go anywhere in aus. In some ways glad i didn't get offered the guernsey would have been tough to make the decision between the job i was working at the time back to a wage that was a quarter of what i was earning at the time. To hear all this going on just makes me thankful. However it does sound very similar to stuff at my current workplace. 2 concurrent enquiries from the government into this organisation still hasn't achieved any real change in the problems.

Thank you for doing a good job and I appreciate the help and the professional manner that collectively i have recieved as I have been flying around.

[ML Pornstar]

Ex FSO Griffo,

Direct from someone who was there,

Little to report except that the Minister encouraged us to reach an agreement without having to wait around. Was all very high level. CEO indicated to the Minister that he thought we were close to an agreement.

The part about the CEO's indication is a direct reflection on the spinelessness of said individual...

Also, BAILEYS, Civil Air have indeed carried out an analysis of the staffing levels - the actual number (at the time of the survey approx. 2-3 months ago) was around 750 FTE (full-time equivalent)! That is actual people hands-on at a console. Compare this with the spin-merchant's quote to the Gov't of 971!!!

LESSON - Don't buy a house/car from TFN :=:=:=

[boree3]

close to an agreement WTF!!!!!

I`d say we`re about as far apart, at a negotiating and general relationship level, as we`ve ever been. It`s just more of the same from TFN. He preaches to a larger audience that everything is fine yet his actions, especially from those beneath him charged with actually implementing things, are not even close to the 'spin' put out.

Either TFN is so far removed from real people he believes what he says is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth or he has a cunning plan. How stupid could the head of BS castle be? Is BS castle inhabited purely by maggots intent on crawling their way as high up the building as possible?


ARGGGHHHHHH......Days off after today. Maybe i`ll get maggoted and tell `em what i really think when the inevitable phone call arrives. :=

p.s. it must be time for time for a Darth Vader Christmas special.

[peuce]

I tend to agree with Mr Baileys ...

If the Press wont write a story ... why don't you do it yourselves?
Compile the FACTS and prepare a report on the last couple of years ... then either publish it yourselves or offer it around.

[Baileys]

A large ad in a national newspaper stating the real facts would be a good pre-emptive investment I think. Get the truth out there before the lies get spread. You have got to be pro-active.

[peuce]

Priceless ... :D

[undervaluedATC]

Baileys:Expose all the lies before you all get shafted again.

that reminds me: after a hiatus (in which authors may or may not have moved overseas ;)), the guys/gals at certifiedshafting are back!

but the censor software won't let me paste a link :*

google it (oneword) - that should work.

[Sunfish]

Look up "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" or "Industrial Psychopathy". My bet will be that the behaviour correlates one to one.

[BMW-Z4]

Sunfish if there is one thing we are not short of in this industry it is behavioural disorders. Pathological organisations and the weirdst of individuals - a PhD thesis in the making. This goes to the demise, decimation and chaos of the whole aviation system from the stability, simplicity and safety of 18 years ago. We continue to see such appalling examples of leadership. We still see individuals influencing and personality managing the future of the industry without once looking back at lessons learned. Individuals that have caused the current disorder and then suddenly ride up on their white horse and are our sudden saviours. This is called Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy. For example: the same small minded individuals that one day say use risk managment processes and the next day say change this immediately without any consideration at all. The same individuals that say see and be seen is safe, minimise use of radio and the next moment are finding other reasons for the disaster they have incrementally or directly affected. One day they want less regulated airspace and do not want to pay for anything and the next day they are complaining about lack of services and protection. Realistically the road back to a simple and effective airspace, ATC, flying, regulatory structure is long and probably unlikely. A decent relationship between Airservices and ATC will never be possible until someone works out that the method (management) of comercialisation that is currently being used is not working. Part of the problem is the advice given to the people in public office and the courage of those people to stand up against those that have little talent, and ethics, delusions of their own knowledge and ability and big mouths. Until we get some strength and courage in public office nothing will change, there will be no accountability but in the long run and hopefully there will be no redemption for the incompetents. I hear that CASA has some future hope. Justice may be revenge.

[Robbovic]

The following is a quote from TFNs Christmas CEO message reference the ATC CA negotiations:

"I believe that many of those involved keenly appreciate the desirability of continuing to seek an agreement and also ensuring that the process does not have any adverse impacts on the travelling public."

I know I shouldn't feed the porcupine, but I just can't resist saying this one more time with the forlorn hope that the narcissistic moron will finally see the real risk to the business.

TFN, EVEN IF WE SIGN THE CA TOMORROW, WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH STAFF... I REPEAT, WE DONT HAVE ENOUGH STAFF TO COVER UNFORSEEN ABSENCES. IN SOME CASES NOT ENOUGH TO COVER THE ROSTER. THIS IS NOT, I REPEAT, NOT INDUSTRIAL ACTION, THIS IS REALITY.

I cant shout any louder and, anyway, I fear no-one in AWB is listening.

(AWB - now there's a scary coincidence)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

TKS 'ML',

I would imagine that your union is now 'responding' by collating data to start correcting some of the 'numbers claims' - publicly - Newspapers, TV(?) - 7.30 Report, ABC etc etc ?? - and publishing your rosters complete with blanks, as a positive action rather than a 'reaction'....

'Peuce' has a good suggestion, as do many others, but you can only do what you can do.....and, Robbo (above) certainly seems passionate enough to
want to do something....

The 22 nd is but '3 sleeps' away.......

All the Very Best.:ok:

[Funk]

[QUOTE]4 (a) Total unplanned absence days - all air traffic controllers
.....................................2005/06........... 2006/07.............. 2007/08
Sick leave....................... 12,123 ...............13,401 ..............13,509
Personal Leave............. 1,525 .................1,500 ..................1,629
........................................13,648.... .......... 14,902 ................15,138

Again, an increase. wow, maybe there is a trend.

But Wait!!!

4 (d) Total sick leave days taken by air traffic controllers by duration
..............................................2005/06 ...............2006/07 ..............2007/08
Single day .................................6,119 .....................6,548 .................5,683
Between 2 & 10 days ..............4,845................... 5,004................... 5,130
Greater than 10 days ..............1,159................... 1,848 ...................2,697
.................................................. .12,123 .................13,401 .................13,509


What's this? Single day absences - what Senator McGuaran alluded to as "sickies" in a senate hearing - ACTUALLY DECREASED BY 865.

And there was an increase of more than 800 cases of sick leave lasting 10 days or more. But guess what? That kind of sick leave gets looked at VERY CLOSELY by the employer, and needs doctors certificates to support it. (in fact, 2 or more days needs a doctors certificate) It also suggests that some people were seriously sick for extended periods - WHICH is another reason why the actual number of available controllers is in dispute. You cannot count people on long term sick leave as available staff.

What we have is an decreasing number of aging staff.[QUOTE]


These figures are alarming and in the long run are unsustainable for any industry. I cannot imagine any business being able to stay afloat if you had to cover so much unplanned absenteeism.

Before I get flamed the reason that employees would engage in such high rate of absenteeism is that they just don't want to be at work and the blame for such behaviour would have to rest solely with the way the business is run.

I enjoy going to work and so do the vast majority of my co workers. I put this down to:

1.you will be fired if you take too many sick single days.
2.your licence will be suspended by the regulator for more than 12 sick days in a 12 month period and you will be asked to show cause. In effect medical absenteeism is individually monitored by the regulators medical officers not by some HR clerk/manager using spurious criteria.
3.we are on a liveable work rotation with no short turn-arounds.
4.our work is challenging and a true team ethos is encouraged by local management.
5.we are not unduly crucified for minor errors and a environment of full safety reporting is encouraged (albeit the latter has only occurred in the 18 months).

I can tell you from personal experience that with regards to items 2, 3 & 4 AsA failed miserably in the last 5 or so years that I was there.
Like others have said before me a quick 4% pay rise isn't going to fix any of these problems.
Additionally CASA has to grow a set of balls and protect the travelling public, aviation stakeholders as well as controllers at the work face.

[undervaluedATC]

Funk, reference the "greater than 10 days sick leave" the cynic inside me thinks it also includes maternity leave - (else why is it not listed separately?)

Funk:These figures are alarming and in the long run are unsustainable for any industry. I cannot imagine any business being able to stay afloat if you had to cover so much unplanned absenteeism.

It takes up to 2 years to recruit and train a new person (and up to another 3 to make a Full Performance Controller) so it makes no sense to tell an existing controller to "show cause" if they need a couple of weeks sick leave for illness/injury etc.

And as I said, these examples are looked at VERY CLOSELY by managers/supervisors and DAME's - it is not a blank cheque.

Funk:1.you will be fired if you take too many sick single days.

as mentioned in my post - single sick days actually decreased by more than 800 instances in the past year.

Funk:3.we are on a liveable work rotation with no short turn-arounds.

umm...
hmmm....
you be the judge:
8 hrs on
12.5 off
8 on
10.5 off
7 on
10 off
7 on
called for overtime
called for overtime
.... repeat ad nauseum.


So, my point is: AsA has been keeping tabs on the sick leave since forever. It really makes you wonder why they "promoted" 97 controllers to ALM positions, the majority of whom no longer hold ratings for separating aircraft, when it seems obvious to me that we need every possible controller we can get our hands on.

Funnily enough, the airlines (i.e. our customers) actually have a policy of overstaffing to cover seasonal illness/unforeseen events so that the planes keep flying.

[max1]

I have had one 2 day break in the last month and a bit, last fortnight period did two full O/T shifts and asked to work all other days off( can't wife works and kids on school holidays), came in early to cover and stayed back late on rostered shifts.
Was asked to return to work after 10pm finish last night to start at 6am this morning (8 hour breaks are acceptable and not fatiguing) on my single day break. Was then asked to start at 4am tomorrow and Monday before starting double night shifts on Monday night.
What staffing crisis, everything is wonderful problems were all solved at the end of August apparently.

There are no Americans in Baghdad.

Airways Revenue (Nav and ARFF)brings in 95% of ASA revenue, has always done.
Last year this was $707 million, out of a total revenue of $744 million. Profit was around $96 million. Interestingly ASA returned a bigger dividend to government this year than last year when profit was $106million, around $66 million.
That's right $66 million was taken from industry and given to government.Nearly $200million has been given to the government in the last 3 years as a dividend.
All controller type wages adds up to around $110 million, whether they are talking to planes or not. There are 480 people working in Canberra, out of a staff of just over 3000. There are around 800 operational controllers and shrinking. Six years ago there were 366 people in Canberra.

[Funk]

Bit off thread...
but the last post reminds me of when I first went to sea in 1984 with BHP, we had 23 bulk carriers managed by a shore staff of about 200 people, our competitor the government owned ANL (Aust. National Line) had a fleet of 35 ships with a shore staff approaching 5000 people.
When the new CEO was appointed to ANL in 1985 he was heard to say that it was a good company ruined by a few dozen ships....has a familiar ring to it?

[west atc]

I have had one 2 day break in the last month and a bit, last fortnight period did two full O/T shifts and asked to work all other days off( can't wife works and kids on school holidays), came in early to cover and stayed back late on rostered shifts.
Was asked to return to work after 10pm finish last night to start at 6am this morning (8 hour breaks are acceptable and not fatiguing) on my single day break. Was then asked to start at 4am tomorrow and Monday before starting double night shifts on Monday night.
What staffing crisis, everything is wonderful problems were all solved at the end of August apparently.

I have been there and know that it is easier said then done, but the simple solution is to say "NO" to any overtime request that is affecting your home life or health. Working so much overtime is only benefiting the company, sure the money is nice but it is a short sighted view to do too much overtime purely for the money.

Max1, I know from the history of your posts that you are not one of "those people" but I would be surprised if the same old suspects on each group are not working incredible amounts of overtime just to keep the place running.
The longer these people keep working the overtime, the longer this is going to drag out the current situation.

And before any trolls in the AWB think I am advocating industrial action, bear in mind that there is HUGE difference between "reasonable overtime" and the amount of overtime that some of these people are doing. :=

[Baileys]

Some of you people are bizarre...

If I worked on any of my days off my wife would be asking why, my kids would want to know why dad isn't home hanging out with them, and i would personally be wondering if i really understood what life is about (hint - it's not about working for the man).

Overtime is for fools....who cares if the company wants you to do this or that. Get a life.

I bet none of those Canberra managers works on saturday or sunday or on any of their precious public holidays or over christmas or easter trying to figure out their staffing problems. They don't care...so long as those controllers work on their weekends.

Controllers working overtime to cover up management inability to manage things correctly helps nobody. Not you (wanting things fixed) and not them (trying to cover up their stuff-ups and pretending there is no problem - well done you are helping out heaps).

Then those same controllers will be complaining about getting a crap offer for the pay negotiation......hello - what do you expect....wake up to yourselves.

[Blockla]

There are two primary reasons why people work overtime.

1) For the cash; and
2) To provide a service to industry and not leave their colleagues battling alone.

You will never remove the first motivator, such is life. There should be little need for or no need for option two; certainly less need than there is.

The staffing crisis is very much real. The reliance on Overtime is extraordinary. This was overtime reliance was primarily motivated by economic rationalisation. They way the company runs their budget/finance it is cheaper to pay 60% extra shifts in overtime than employ an extra FTE.

If your staffing number calls for 23.6 people much cheaper to cover the .6 on OT than pay for the extra 1.0; because of 'on costs'.

This has become systemic and part of the management ethos, particularly at high levels. They have then chipped away at other staff resource costs such as training specialists, support roles, college instructors, etc. CBT has replaced real training, turning what little time available for training into mostly a box ticking exercise; significant amounts of this CBT is done during breaks from the console, not on rostered training days.

There is no capacity to cover long term sick leave, release people for Leave without pay, or approve long service leave, or cover people leaving to get away from the man; and still the corporate spin turns the argument into a total desire for extra money as the only motivator and 'deliberate' action to 1) Create overtime (sick-out) and 2) Deliberately not cover sick-leave (to strengthen industrial position). Hello, hello, why does it need strengthening?

There is one group in the whole company that has 'correct' staffing and that group is working very little OT, and having airspace closures, hence giving them the evidence to support their assertion that it's a campaign. Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

Since getting to Ireland (I'm a deserter), a move certainly not done for cash... I have noticed a completely different attitude toward staffing levels and overtime.

The Irish by Australian standards are flush with staff; some of them have worked up to 19 extra days (which is a lot) for the entire year, most Irish ATCs have worked 3 or 4 shifts; yet they are still working on getting an extra 50 ATCs (already rated) on top of their abinitio program. The Irish work 'true' team rosters which are certainly not very efficient (compared to home) but the advantages are they never reduce capacity because of staffing, they have very little reliance on overtime and I'm sure their sick leave stats are much more "healthy" than at home, they run TRUCE (IFER) training days plus proficiency training too which includes training in the simulators and classroom; certainly not box ticking in front of a computer.

Compare that with home where the desire is to trim the rosters with fancy rostering tools and silly projects to reduce numbers despite all evidence suggesting the project(s) would be more staff intensive; ever with the desire from above to reduce budgets against the ledger thus assisting the payment of bonuses to upper management.

The reliance on overtime has grown where some staff are working in excess of one overtime shift per week, that's right over 50 extra days a year; I'd hate to think about how they run their family/social lives.

The lip service paid to the 'overseas recruiting campaign' was a classic joke of epic proportions, such is the work environment that all but the Sth Africans want to return home and will be doing so when their 'Australian to do list' is complete; this will exacerbate the staffing crisis.

And don't get me started on the box ticking that is 'safety assessments'.



PS agree Baileys, wake up people, you obligations to industry and colleagues are complete by working your rostered duty, above that is above your obligation and is a nice to do not a must do, excluding motivator point one above...

[89 steps to heaven]

Some of you people are bizarre...

Not bizarre, but professional. We don't like to leave airspace uncontrolled or with a reduced service, and we certainly don't like leaving our workmates in the lurch.

Anybody out there that thinks we are deliberately giving the industry or our employer a hard time is dead wrong. We are doing our best with very limited resources.

[Adamastor]

Helping perpetuate a flawed system by wallpapering over the cracks doesn't make you professional.

[Chief galah]

Adamastor

.....and your solution is.......??

[Baileys]

Isn't the solution obvious.....does it need to be spelt out any more?

Start doing yourselves some favours.

It's so easy - adamastor is exactly right.

[Nautilus Blue]

Working overtime for A$A is like giving an alcoholic a drink. The sad fact is without TIBA's and more importantly the publicity about TIBA's, nothing would have been done (even if it is to little too late). I was always prepared to give up a day off to keep the system working while it was a short term problem, but for years it seems to have been policy rather than predicament causing OT.

There is no perfect solution. Closing airspace is shafting the public at best, dangerous at worst. However, if you keep wallpapering over the cracks, they get bigger, making 'the big one' more and more likely.

As for not leaving your colleagues alone, as much as I dislike working with Mr TIBA, it's better than a coworker who hasn't had more than a few hours sleep in the past few days.

[max1]

I didn't return after my 10pm shift, and enjoyed my day off with family, and didn't agree to the 4 am starts, too fatiguing.
I was giving an example where you do a lot more and then just get asked to do more.
ASA would have Joe Public believe through their Corporate Affairs (@50 people now, in 1998 there were 3 PR people) that controllers are running an industrial campaign.BS.

Controllers have always had the legal backing to say no to O/T due to many reasons, family committments,work/life balance, fatigue,etc, but have not invoked them due to an ethos not to inconvenience industry.
ASA have abused this over the years, no need to employ the correct number of controllers as these suckers will just keep covering for us and we'll drag in the bonuses.

Well ASA are now reaping what they have sown. Unfortunately it is the industry that is paying for the mismanagement. ASA wheel out the spin doctors to divert blame.

This has served to further disengage controllers who are putting their health and families first for a change.

[Howabout]

Adamastor and Baileys; you talk about wallpapreing over the cracks and, by inference, apply blame to the controllers - I think that's a bit unfair. I'd give you the analogy of the nursing profession dealing with a broken health system in every state. They feel morally obliged to prop up the system because they are concerned about people's health - the parallel with ATC is that the concern is peoples' safety and not piking out and dumping extra pressure and extra demands on their mates.

There may be a few who do it for the money. I'd bet my house that the vast majority do it because they still have pride in their profession. I'd also like to believe that there's a determined, and bloody-minded streak, that's not going to give the pricks an inch. From the way that their management appears to have played this, they are praying for disruptive industrial action - it's the only thing that will save their necks and "prove" that they are dealing with recalcitrants. As I've said before, my impression of their union is that they are not that stupid. I'd go as far as to say that "management" will have a totally crappy XMAS and new year if Santa doesn't deliver the hoped for industrial action.

The truth will eventually out.

[Funk]

Howabout ...Bit of a long stretch to compare yourself to nurses. If you don't go to work flights are delayed or diverted if nurses or doctors don't go to work people die.

Make a choice; choose life or continue to bitch about AsA whilst on endless overtime.

[somniferous]

Does it count as industrial action if we refuse to work any non-rostered hours for a week?

Possibly with the exception of someone going sick and someone being called in to replace - which would only be replacing a previously rostered shift and therefore something that we would normally be called in for and consider "reasonable" overtime.

Then the public and the parliament (and management) would see how understaffed the organisation really is on a standard week.

Yes it would be inconvenient, but it would prove a point without being too aggressive.

Just a thought.

[Here to Help]

Owen Stanley,

I'm sure you are aware that comments from this board and other forums, similar to yours, have been used as "evidence" by Airservices to (desperately) prove industrial action on the part of controllers. They have also been quoted by lazy journalists in sensationalistic media stories.

The association has been brought before the IRC partly as a result which has wasted it time and money that could have been spent on other things.

Don't think for a moment that you won't be quoted somewhere as more "evidence" of "covert industrial action".

[Robbovic]

Folks,
A cricket analogy comes to mind here.
We are about to face the second new ball (in the form of the Christmas/NY break).
We have seen off the opening attack and seen that the opposition are somewhat lacking in firepower.
We have seen off the spin attack.
We have resisted the temptation to go the tonk at the weakass **** that has been served up lately.
The last thing we want to do now is to have a slash at the short quick stuff that is bound to come with the second newey.

Lets just take guard again, and settle in for the long haul - they are running out of puff. If we "take the light" or go off for rain, the patrons wont be happy.

The best ammo we can have is to be able to say that given the shortages, given the overtime, given the interuptions to our lives, we still kept airspace open, no patron was inconvenienced and the industrial action is a furphy.

[Baileys]

Well if you are going to be accused of it anyway........

[Howabout]

Funk,

I'm not "one of them" on "endless overtime". However, I do know a few and have over many years.

I accept the bit about my analogy being a bit of a stretch, but it didn't concern the fundamental difference about life vs flight delays. It concerned the sense of obligation that both professions feel that a cynical management is all too willing to exploit.

OS; some angry words two posts back, although last one was a little more level-headed. I agree that people will do it for the money, but believe that the money is a by-product of the obligation for the majority. Call me naive, but I also think (having read some of your other posts) that you are not that cynical either!

[ferris]

Have a good, long, think about what Somniferous posted (replace sick only- not blanks).

If you could get the overtime junkies to play along (there would still be OT available), for even one complete month, you would totally castrate management's argument about industrial action. They would truly be stuffed having to explain that those TIBAs were ALL DUE TO LACK OF STAFF, and nothing to do with industrial action. They will try to spin it, but you would really be in a commanding position to run full page ads showing overtime was being worked to replace unplanned abscence, and TIBAs and delays were 100% down to them. You could even run ads, get press etc along the way, pointing out that you were soon going to commence industrial action after "x" date, as allowed under PIA. In the mean time, what the public is seeing is the delays inherintly due to AsA lies and the bonus-driven management culture (soooooo popular atm).

Seems to me like everyone (by that I mean all differently motivated 'types')would be willing to support something like that.

[Adamastor]

I disagree, Ferris. Don't fall into the Airservices trap of thinking that sick leave is YOUR fault. Sick leave occurs in EVERY SINGLE industry around Australia and the rest of the world including air traffic management. Air traffic controllers' sick leave has remained ostensibly unchanged for over a decade. If anything it has dropped a little in the last year. Almost every company has strategies in place to allow for unplanned absence. Generally they employ surplus staff to cover it. Earlier in the year Brett Godfrey stated publicly that that is what airlines including Virgin Blue do and criticised Airservices for not doing precisely this. As long as Airservices have you believing that their own planning shortcomings are your fault, you cannot win.

[Baileys]

Ferris,

You are exactly right. But getting the no-life overtime junkies on board might be a bit of a dream.

[oziatc]

Ferris the only problem is that management would not disclose if we are replacing a sick controller or filling a vacant shift. We are just asked if we would like to do an additional duty.
The last minute call outs are filled over the phone and there is no way to check until we get there.

[dabelstein]

Ferris, you are spot on.


It's no wonder ASA treat us with contempt. As a collective, we deserve every bit of it.

[somniferous]

I disagree, Ferris. Don't fall into the Airservices trap of thinking that sick leave is YOUR fault. Sick leave occurs in EVERY SINGLE industry around Australia and the rest of the world including air traffic management. Air traffic controllers' sick leave has remained ostensibly unchanged for over a decade. If anything it has dropped a little in the last year. Almost every company has strategies in place to allow for unplanned absence. Generally they employ surplus staff to cover it. Earlier in the year Brett Godfrey stated publicly that that is what airlines including Virgin Blue do and criticised Airservices for not doing precisely this. As long as Airservices have you believing that their own planning shortcomings are your fault, you cannot win.


Adamastor,

I agree partly with your comments, in that yes, every industry has unplanned staff abscences due to illness. However, I think in this instance it is important to play the "nice guy/girl" and show that we will be willing to do overtime to cover "unplanned" roster issues. It shows that we are willing to do "reasonable" overtime.

If AsA were fully staffed then the OT that we did to cover illnesses would in fact be of a "reasonable" nature.

I think this way it would show that as a collective group of controllers we are happy to be reasonable whilst showing the Australian public just how short we are.

Maybe some sectors would cope better than others but I think it would prove a point. If it were over a key period such as when parliament resumes next year, not only would it prove a point but it would do so to the people that make TFN accountable (apparently).

Again, just a thought.

[GetTheFlick]

Folks,
A cricket analogy comes to mind here.

Dang ! I was doing a pretty good job of following it all, right up until then. :ok:

#1) It sounds way too much like what it going on in America.

#2) I'm reminded that we sent you a guy from the FAA, long ago -- Pollard. Sorry about that.

#3) If Marion Blakey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marion_Blakey) ever sets foot in Oz, break out the torches and pitchforks.

There's much I don't know about your situation but I do know this; working overtime won't solve anything. It will just make you old before your time and delay the implementation of whatever is the solution.

American controllers could only wish they had your labor laws. They had to wait for a new election. They're still waiting.

Don Brown

[dabelstein]

somniferousHowever, I think in this instance it is important to play the "nice guy/girl" and show that we will be willing to do overtime to cover "unplanned" roster issues. It shows that we are willing to do "reasonable" overtime.

If AsA were fully staffed then the OT that we did to cover illnesses would in fact be of a "reasonable" nature.You're being naive.

[Adamastor]

I understand the point you are trying to make, som, but rest assured you WILL be vilified and harangued in the press no matter how reasonable you are or try to appear. You just have to tell the truth to your friends and family and cop Joe Public's wrath on the chin I'm afraid.

.....working overtime won't solve anything. It will just.....delay the implementation of whatever is the solution.

Thanks, Don. That is precisely the point I was trying to make. Rest assured, there's plenty of people over here following your debacle with interest, and hope that you're about to get a long-deserved change.

[Harvey Birdman]

Don't worry about Bill Pollard, Don. He was a lightweight powderpuff compared to the current self-serving delusional psychopath! :ok:

[GetTheFlick]

Thanks, Don. That is precisely the point I was trying to make. Rest assured, there's plenty of people over here following your debacle with interest, and hope that you're about to get a long-deserved change.

You should have seen the controller's BBS the day Obama named a Republican as Transportation Secretary.:eek: I hope he names a Democrat as FAA Administrator. Otherwise, the troops will go bonkers.

That will be the big problem over here -- controllers aren't known for their patience. (I suspect that is universal ;)) Anyway, cooler heads know that Obama has the wieght of the world on his shoulders and taking out the trash at the FAA can't be a priority at the moment. The controllers need to hang on, but I'm not sure they will. As it is, we're already facing a rebuilding effort on par with the PATCO strike in 1981. We know the "damned if you do -- damned if you don't" situation Oz's controllers are in, all to well.

Me ? I'm of the "I'd rather die standing on my feet than live on my knees" mindset. That's a lot easier to say when you're retired like I am. Best wishes on whatever course of action y'all have to take.

Don Brown

[peuce]

Just a thought ....

Do you really think Joe Public knows or cares whether you are propping up the system with overtime ?

Do you really think Joe Public knows ATCs exist?

Do you really think Joe Public, who is on $30,000 pa and is about to get retrenched, really gives a toss about your EBA?

If I book a ticket, hop on a plane and it takes me to Sydney ... I'm fine!

[Ivasrus]

Just a thought ....

Do you really think Joe Public knows or cares whether you are propping up the system with overtime ?

Do you really think Joe Public knows ATCs exist?

Do you really think Joe Public, who is on $30,000 pa and is about to get retrenched, really gives a toss about your EBA?

If I book a ticket, hop on a plane and it takes me to Sydney ... I'm fine!

Peuce, I don't care whether or not Joe Public (51%) cares, BUT to answer your questions: YES, YES, NO. Just look at the QF engineers as an example.

[Here to Help]

somniferous,

If AsA were fully staffed then the OT that we did to cover illnesses would in fact be of a "reasonable" nature.


This is not true. Prior to the staff shortage kicking in, less overtime was required for staff unless for the following reasons:

-We actually had more staff rostered on during the day ("fat" in the roster) so that if someone wasn't coming in it could be covered)
-We had supervisors/team leaders on shift who could plug in and cover some gaps.
- Calling anyone in was called "ED" - "Emergency Duty".
With the more staff on rosters, there were more people on days off to potentially come in.
- The attitude at the time was that no-one countenanced closing the airspace. It was unheard of to go TIBA. "TIBA" was one of those things a nasty checkie would ask you about.

What happened then?

-The "fat" out of the rosters was cut over time. This was done by reducing the coverage requirements and then not replacing any staff moving on. Some groups of sectors lost 1 person in coverage for every six months for years.

- New people were not being recruited.

- "ATS Line Manager" (ALM) positions were created. These new positions drew from operational controllers and operational supervisors. Large pay rises were offered for those willing to take AWAs. 100 or so positions (over 12% of all ATCs) were created. These ALMs are not operational and they cannot act as air traffic controllers. This effectively removed a large amount of controllers from the pool of replacements.

- The "Service Delivery Environment" ("SDE") project was attempted. This project's philosophy was to divide Australia's Control sectors into High "Upper Airpsace Services" and Low "Regional Services" and "East Coast Services". The philisophy was that different types of controllers could work these different areas - generic ratings, a Brisbane arrivals controller also doing Sydney Arrivals and/or Cairns arrivals (maybe at night-time doing all!). This project was not thought out properly at all. It introduced huge inefficiencies. It took sectors off controllers and gave them new ones. The pool of replacements for a particular sector just dropped. The drain on training resources was huge. Not a few controllers were trained and endorsed on sectors they have not even worked. Some controllers, who did have multiple sector endorsements, now only sit on one sector. Extremely wasteful.

Controllers warned about the ALM process and SDE project and the effect on staffing levels but they went unheeded.

As the staff shortage started to impact operations (increased delays, TIBA), then training staff were brought back from the simulator to plug in. As a result, for many groups, final field training courses languished. As traffic pattern, procedures, and airspace changes occured (mostly due SDE), no-one was sent into the sim to renew the courses. No-one was available. Simulator courses are now out of date - some by many years. This is crippling the recovery process - even if enough trainees can make it through the Academy. These shortcomings were all warned about by controllers to management.

Part of Greg Russell's (CEO of Airservices AKA "TFN" here and elsewhere) plan to cut budgets was to decimated training. Controllers, even if they could be spared off the roster (which they aren't), are required to do refresher trainining to maintain proficiency in emergency response and system degradation. Airservices Australia has failed to provide simulator refresher for its ATCs for almost 3 years now. There are endorsed controllers who have never done refresher training on VFR in IMC (say) for their entire career so far.

Greg Russell's ALM, SDE and cost cutting rampage has crippled Airservices Australia's ability to provide an air traffic service. I have not even mentioned the Certified Agreement which expired last Sunday.

Short term sick leave (ie not including any long term, managed ilnesses) has been steady over the years and has decreased since last year.

In today's environment, if a controller is ill for a shift, there are generally no more onsite solutions. A callout is necessary. If a callout is not available, the airspace is likely to close, or other controllers on shift manage the extra workload with delays.

In the past, as I have said, it was replaceable by retasking controllers already at work, and/or there are enough staff so that an unrepleaced absence is not automatically TIBA. More staff were available on days off, so that doing OT was less fatiguing.

Any talk of unofficially not doing OT for any other reason than those outlined in the Certified Agreement is seen as industrial action.

[Slugfest]

Can anyone shed some light on the outcomes of the AIRC hearings last week about the various issues between Civil Air and ASA.

From memory:

Reasonable OT
ALMs
LOA and CA.

[Starts with P]

There was only 1 result published from the IRC last week. That was the "pre-6am starts".

It was decided that we can still do them as the letter of commitment expires with the CA. We didn't really expect to win, but it proves that ASA's word is not worth the Letter of Agreement is printed on.

[Slugfest]

Thanks Start,

The LOA was a crok in the first place as the PORs said you could do pre0600 starts in any case so all the LOA did was create a heap of FAs for the sake of some shiny bum in AWB.

Regardless though. interesting how the "LOA has expired with the CA" but a new CA has not been agreed/certified and therefore the conditions of the "old" CA continue until they are replaced. Ergo, the CA has not expired otherwise you would be back to basic award conditions.

Cake and eat it too perhaps?

BTW, I just read JH's Xmas message and he says that the CA will be agreed in the new year....Fat F*(&*^inG chance in 2009 if the same insulting offer is on the table - maybe 2010, maybe.

Slug.

[undervaluedATC]

I know this press relase has been listed on the start of another thread, but thought I would post it here - since the only media reference I can find acknowledging is Ben Sandilands article on PlaneTalking (below)

from www.civilair.asn.au/joomla (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla)

Media release: Monday December 22 2008
CHRISTMAS INDUSTRIAL ACTION RULED OUT
Australian air traffic controllers are today working out of contract after their three-year certified agreement expired yesterday, without a fresh agreement in place despite months of negotiations.

However, meetings of air traffic controllers in all states have today decided not to exercise their right to notify a bargaining period in the Australian Industrial Relations Commission. Air traffic controllers will continue to work significant amounts of overtime over the Christmas-New Year period as a result of staff shortages.

A meeting between Civil Air and Airservices Australia negotiators is scheduled for tomorrow in Melbourne.

Civil Air Executive Secretary Peter McGuane says the employer Airservices Australia has failed again, but the travelling public has suffered enough in 2008.

"The high incidence of uncontrolled airspace in 2008 has reduced Australian skies to third-world standards.

"Major airlines refuse to fly through uncontrolled air space, either delaying flights or wasting time and fuel to fly around affected sectors.

"At times this has caused chaos, with major centres like Sydney and Melbourne closed for hours because there are no air traffic controllers available to work.

"Airservices has failed to recruit enough new staff to replace those retiring or being lured overseas by lucrative contracts, and could not even provide adequate training facilities for those it did recruit.

"Airservices makes a profit of more than $100 million, but internal reorganisations and staff shortages mean it simply cannot cover the rosters to keep Australian skies safely monitored.

"While air traffic controllers are frustrated that their employer could not complete negotiations by a date set three years ago, they don't want to cause any stress for passengers over the Christmas-New Year holiday period."

For more information
Peter McGuane, Executive Secretary, Civil Air (03) 9647 9100
Andrew Taylor 0411 156 797




and from Ben Sandilands (writer on Crikey.com)
Your Christmas flight might even be on time - Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2008/12/23/your-christmas-flight-might-even-be-on-time/)

Your Christmas flight might even be on time

December 23, 2008 – 4:28 pm, by Ben Sandilands (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/author/bensandilands/)
Civil Air, the air traffic controller union, says there will be no industrial action (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=957&Itemid=40) during the holiday season.
This might not eliminate problems however, as the statement points to the chronic shortage of controllers, whether union members or not, which has caused air traffic control disruption all year.
The union’s tactic is to leave the Minister for Transport and Infrastructure, Anthony Albanese, with no alternative but to conclude that the management of AirServices Australia has not really managed the human resources part of its responsibilities with distinction, which is something the airlines have already told him.
The other unpalatable truth in this shambles is that it is seriously unsafe, contrary to the advice from AirServices and CASA, for the pilots of jet airlines to ’self separate’ without ever knowing with certainty the position of other aircraft in their vicinity, or whether they are even listening on the correct frequency, or have been rendered invisible because of the absurdity of Australia allowing small turbo-prop airliners and freighters to operate without having TCAS collision avoidance systems fitted, as required in the rest of the world.
Perhaps the Minister will review the quality of advice he has been given by the incompetent bureaucracy that his government has chosen to leave untouched in aviation matters, and get a briefing or two from the chief pilots and top management of Qantas and Virgin Blue and Tiger as to why the current situation is intolerable, and unrelated to any official or unofficial union action.

[divingduck]

Rant on..

I'm sorry, maybe its because I am now in another time zone, but all I can see that this announcement means is that AsA management will be breathing a large sigh of relief!
I mean, this is the number one time of the year to make a point...if you had put out the press release a month ago stating that you WILL go out on strike over Christmas, it would have focussed their attention like nothing else.
So now you will manfully shoulder the burdens again, show true professionalism, work in the face of adversity, miss the kids opening their prezzies, yada yada yada, so that the traveling public isn't inconvenienced.:ugh:
God save me from muppets!:rolleyes:

I'll say this really slowly so that some of you can get the gist...if you continue to prop up the system, and the travelling public are not inconvenienced, then management are under no pressure to do anything about it.
How many of the travelling public have rung up to say thinks for all the over time.? or for working that shift that meant you couldn't see the kids at their end of year play etc...answer? none! That is how much they care about you and your working conditions.
Obviously articles at Crikey and all the posts here and on the civilair website just are not working...you have been putting up with this stupidity for years and all the whining in the world hasn't worked!:ugh:

Like Baraka Obama said in his campaign, it's time for a change!

Mind you, getting everyone to give up the extra dollars is like getting a heroin addict to go cold turkey..it just isn't going to happen. Please don't insult the readers here by saying that it's professionalism and looking after your mates etc, we all know that the dollar signs are the first and last thing everyone doing these extra duties thinks about. (either that or being scared of management)

How about the union, puts out a directive that NO overtime, under any guise is to be worked until the agreement is reached. That isn't going on strike, (although I would have thought that you had a pretty airtight safety case) and the holes in the rosters would be there for everyone to see...immediately.

Rant off..

Merry Christmas to all and a Happy New Year to you all, may you get the agreement that you deserve:E

[TrafficTraffic]

DD,

too much Guiness me thinx..

Compliments of the season to you though!

LOL I found a picture of the Crikey.com chief journalist

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y150/MsDemmie/comical_ali.jpg
(Muhammad Saeed al-Sahhaf)

[Awol57]

You do realise that banning AD is actually industrial action and we need to enter the bargaining period to do that. Oh, and the minister can stop it from happening when we give the required 72hrs notice. But otherwise, easy.

[Louis Cypher]

Is it true that Launceston Tower hours have been 'trimmed' because under ASA's own rostering rules their aren't enough staff to keep the thing open for the published hours????

[Funk]

I'm with DD on this, your last bargaining chip just went out the window. Same **** different CA. :ugh:

Enjoy the holidays chaps.
Merry Xmas

[blind freddy]

I am with Civl Air on this one.
Why stuff around families that are going on holidays?
It will only p!ss them off, and incite the Government to possibly do something.

There will still be some disruptions, and that is where the pressure is put back on AsA, to prove that it is the "renegade" controllers.

The people that need to be affected is the Corporate High Flyers, they are the ones that will put the heat on Albo to do something.

Protected Industrial action is what is required. That will happen soon enough, but there is a process to follow first. Once that is done, then Controllers will make a stand.

That is when things will get interesting.

Christmas, however, is not the time for it.

[CrazyMTOWDog]

Louis Cypher,

There was an agreement which expired last Sunday. This agreement allowed rostering staff out to the max 10 hours covering Tower hours. The troops put forward a roster which was rejected by the 'BS Castle'. This roster would have covered normal hours and no additional cost to the business driven company.

But as an added bonus on some days ( the middle part) you will receive service from the 4 controllers now rostered on duty!!!.:eek:

Apparently the safety case drawn up is 'slightly' flawed...............:=

12 months ago....................:\

[man on the ground]

you will receive service from the 4 controllers now rostered on duty!!!

Was there enough money left in the budget to buy the extra chairs? :cool:

[undervaluedATC]

My reading of Commissioner Bacon's decision on the overtime clause is that neither side got exactly what they wanted.

[5miles]

I'm still not sure what ASA hoped to achieve with this "reasonable hours" dispute.

Even if the AIRC found entirely in their favour; how was it supposed to work practically.

There are so many reasons we could give for reasonably refusing additional duty, that for the ALMs, it would be an exercise in futility.

The way I read the Annexure of the AIRC decision is that the only change it has made is you may be asked a reason for refusing the additional duty. If they don't accept you're reason, then ASA can notify a dispute with the AIRC. Not much use to them if the vacant shift commences in 2 hours.

As for Funk and Diving Duck's assertions that we've folded a winning hand. Sorry but all we've agreed to is no industrial action. There will still be vacant shifts due staff shortages.

As for if you had put out the press release a month ago stating that you WILL go out on strike over Christmas, it would have focussed their attention like nothing else.
That would have been an own goal I think. Publicly stating an intention to strike prior to expiration of the current CA; ASA would use it as evidence we weren't negotiating in good faith.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

5 Miles,

G'Day, I think you have that correct with your 'own goal' statement.

That action would have been overpowered by the 'Spin Factory' publicity machine and you would have been presented as 'greedy so and so's' in the eyes of the public.

The challenge will be to simply demonstrate the blanks on the rosters to the Minister direct, or if he is NOT interested, then to the General Public by way of the various media outlets.

That is not Industrial Action. (As far as I am aware...) You are simply stating your case(?)

Once your 'credentials and good intentions' are established, then you are able to progress the matter further.

This should be fairly easy for your union to accomplish, by simply presenting the FACTS.

Rosters - as published - with blanks,
Callouts - the number of callouts and time since last 'off duty', to staff receiving the call.
Total number of OPERATIONAL staff - by location if necessary.
etc etc. The FACTS should be sufficient and self explanatory....IMHO.

Merry Christmas Guys and Gals - especially to those working the 'Doggos'...
I remember them well..... :eek:

:ok::ok:

[Howabout]

5miles, a logical piece.

No one knows who's who on this forum and all I can say is that I'm not an AsA controller - take it or leave it. However, I do have sympathy for their plight and the way that a good organisation has been used and abused.

Regardless of the calls from outsiders for some form of militancy, it would have been plain dumb. I wonder sometimes if the pleas for radical industrial action on this forum don't come from "management". I don't know, but sense, that radical industrial action would "prove" that you're a bunch of recalcitrants and, by extension, that claims of "renegade" controllers undermining services have substance.

From my perspective, your (incompetent) management is running out of options. Don't give them a "get out of jail card".

[Howabout]

DNS,

Good for you, and I accept what you've said. There seems to be a few cool heads around, but I thought that some of the plaintive bleatings about "sticking it up'em" might have prematurely ignited action that would have been to your collective detriment.

The cat can be skinned slowly and there's that old saying about "revenge being a dish that's best eaten cold!"

[oziatc]

Calls to stick it to them are often made in frustration! In reality when people cool down and really think about the issue they realise that it is the end outcome which is important.
No one person can bring about the resolution of a new certified agreement. Therefore action, if and when it is warranted, will be conducted legally and in accordance with the constitution of the ATC union, Civil Air.
The road is becoming increasingly more difficult to navigate due to reform in industrial legislation, with large potions yet untested. The large majority of ATC's are very professional, diligent and hardworking. They also hold a great deal of pride in the Australian ATC system.
Industrial action in the current environment is likely to be VERY measured in order to highlight poor management and planning, without creating significant ongoing impediments to the industry and general public, unless there is a well publicised and official Civil Air warning.
General comments on this forum need to be considered in light of this fact. It is often a vent for frustration and thereby unlikely to be either a threat or in reality carried out!
What is of benefit is discussion of facts, to the view of allowing those interested in the general public, to be involved in gaining a more complete understanding of the difficulties facing Australian ATC's.
To my fellow colleges I would encourage you to be measured in your comments from here on, as such forums have in the past been used as evidence in AsA's arguments that there has been "covert industrial action" which has definitely NOT been the case!

It would be a pity to have our bargaining period terminated based upon unfounded threats posted on this forum!

Please keep to the facts.

And before anyone speculates, I am neither a AsA manager nor Union official but just one of many level headed controllers.

[A Controllers Wife]

Please keep to the facts.



There has been one missing element to this thread and I feel that I can now speak. I watched my husband change over the years working for ASA, from a happy person able to switch off after work and spend time with me and his family (like I assume the significant other halves have) to a person I hardly knew as he was too buggered to talk or do any thing with me. Yes he use to be called every now and then to cover a shift which was fine at the start but then it changed and it wasn’t a treat anymore. Up until recently I use to worry about him always being asked at the last moment to extend pushing some days in to 10hr shifts, with little break in between before he’d have to be back in the next day or being called in to do an AD when he needed a break. I not only saw the change in him but also his work mates and their families, we all talk and I think that is what has kept us all going. It’s not only the fatigue that worried me but it was also “our lives” when was I going to spend time with my husband? And when was he going to be able to have time for himself?
It was heartbreaking to leave OZ but I’m not sad that I have my husband back. It wasn’t a light decision that was made either, but the way he was treated when he resigned made it a little bit easier. We feel for the group that he left as it has put even more pressure on them, but at the end of the day what was more important?
A company that took over 100 controllers off line and gave them a big fat pay rise to do what? :ugh:
Or to have my partner back?

I know who has won our match!

The family won in the end :ok:

PS. For those who are thinking of leaving do it for the right reasons, its not easy but now we are here life seems to have more possibilities.
And for anyone else these hard working, dedicated professionals that keep our skies safe 24/7 365 days a year remember they too have families just like you. :D

[angrycontrollerswife]

Thank you for your post. I understand and have very similar feelings as you do. As time goes on,the shift work & this unapreciative employer has an increased affect on your life, health and family.

I too have watched my husband change from a happy,content, patient, caring and loving person to someone who is cranky, angry, irritable and struggles with fatigue constanly (age comes into this). You can only put up with this level of imcompetence for so long before it affects you.

Don't get me wrong he loves his job but the disgust, anger and dissapiontment he has for Airservices is quiet sad.

Airservices Australia expects more and more and give less and less back to their employees. (expect of course more phone calls to disrupt your sleep to come to work, unless I unplug the phone which is becoming a regular occurance).

I have spoken to many wives/partners and the disbelief of how this company is run and the way they treat their staff is nothing less than disgusting. The lies, deciet, insulting remarks and complete lack of respect for their staff is disgracful.

One thing Airservices fails to take understand is, this affects families not just the employee. The resentment is builidng, not just from the workers now but from wives; and trust me we can have far more of a say on what our husbands do than than Airservices ever will.

I'm pleased another wife has posted on here to show it affects more than the worker.

[undervaluedATC]

I just showed those posts to my wife, and she said, 'yes, it's all true.' :sad::(


and I've just found this on my employer's job 'opportunity' page

https://airservicesaustralia.nga.net.au/bin/fnt_jobs_list.cfm

Attention all Air Traffic Controllers!

Are you looking for an opportunity in an organisation that values your professional expertise? :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk::rolleyes:
Are you keen to work in a technically progressive environment?
Are you looking for more control over the direction of your career and where you and your family reside? :confused::mad:



If so, Airservices Australia might have just what you're looking for.......... :uhoh::sad::(

We are a government-owned corporation providing safe and environmentally sound air traffic control management (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aboutus/howatcworks/default.asp) and related airside services to the aviation industry. In a region covering 11 per cent of the world’s surface (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aboutus/howatcworks/ourairspace.asp), we manage air traffic operations for around 63 million passengers on more than 4 million domestic and international flights every year. We have also been twice voted as the world’s best provider of air traffic control (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/media/awards/default.asp).

Airservices Australia are currently recruiting for their 2009/2010 training courses. We are actively seeking to recruit previously trained and rated Air Traffic Controllers, people just like you.............

Our new application form allows you to indicate your first, second and third preferences in relation to your stream and location, so now you know we're listening, right from the word go..........

We are looking to work with you, to provide a career opportunity that is right for you and your family. We know you have kids in school and university and they're fed up of moving. We know what you really love is working on the console, not paperwork. We know it's a candidate led market and you're looking for the right opportunity for you.

Get more control over your life...............apply now to be considered for our 2009 courses! For more information please refer to our website at www.airservicesaustralia.com (http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/) or call Aldona Stravopodis on (02) 6268 5048.


Hmm....
read through this thread and decide for yourself if any of the highlighted/bolded sections above are true, or just more spin....

[RAAFASA]

Are you looking for more control over the direction of your career and where you and your family reside? and We know you have kids in school and university and they're fed up of moving.

Gee, why don't they just ring up RAAF controllers directly and offer them jobs ... oh hang on, they already are....:=

[undervaluedATC]

apply now to be considered for our 2009 courses

this part is especially interesting, because according to all the official spokespeople (JH, ms. NAB, TFN etc) AsA 'has no trouble attracting applicants', and indeed, the whole of 2009 training courses are supposedly all full up and booked out. :=

unless of course AsA are going to repeat their trick of postponing an ab initio course should they get enough RAAFies interested (and getting said course to TGO for the RAAFies) :ugh:

[trueline]

Earlier this year plenty of RAAF tower controllers applied for ASA. They were eventually told that ASA would definitely NOT be training any tower controllers from outside ASA in 2009.

So they stayed in the RAAF and accepted the 12 month retention payment.

You soon learn in ASA that when they say they definitely won't do something....

You guessed it. Tower courses WILL be run in 2009 (STOP PRESS: YSSY tower is desperate for staff. Gee, when did they work that out?! What about the extensive workforce planning they did!?) but the RAAFies can't get out until at least September!

There's not enough enroute instructors to run the April RAAF course and an abinitio course so the RAAFies may get flicked across to the tower course, thereby shafting the tower RAAFies who were told there would be no courses!!

My advice is: STAY IN THE RAAF! This mob aren't worth it.

[oziatc]

RAAF controllers, YES we need you! And you are indeed welcome!

If you don't stay in the RAAF get everything they offer in writing (like pay increment you will recieve, conditions of transfer etc.) and endorsed by the highest HR manager you can. AsA have a habit of not only reneging on verbal agreements but written ones as well. Those who have been around a while can all attest to seeing individuals, even with written terms, having to fight tooth and nail to get them fulfilled.

That manager went beyond their authority is always a good excuse!

It may even be worth getting some legal advice before you sign on the dotted line.

Just be wary and check things out with some of your fellow colleges now working for AsA. I'm sure they will give it to you straight!

[max1]

Not forgetting that there are people who have been with ASA 15/20/25 years who would love to get Tower jobs who are being passed over for transfer/promtions because staffing has been that critical for years that they are unable to be released to the job they have won.
ASA have a history of ignoring the promises they make to people. We do need the RAAFies (so do the RAAF) but it is galling to see them come straight in and pick up a sought after post, that someone has been waiting on for years and been selected as the most suitable candidate. No offence to the RAAFies they didn't cause this.
It is always amazing to see how quickly non-operational people can be moved around to fill management positions. ASA even pay the airfares,living costs to commute weekly to other capital cities to suit their Work/Life balance. Meanwhile we struggle to find people to update training courses or act as Simulator instructors.
My wife and kids agree with those sentiments expressed by controllers significant other halves.

[ferris]

Until AsA realise that their policies regarding HR and penny pinching actually have a cost (not always directly on the bottom line, but a cost nonetheless) and managers who actually have some long term interest in the organisation and it's health, they will continue to foster the toxic environment they do.
Disallowing movement within the organisation has EXACTLY the same effect as the RAAF enforcing unwanted movement- yet they seek to hire RAAFies, using it as a carrot! Ah, the irony.
Clowns. Always ten years behind the management curve.

[RAAFASA]

Not forgetting that there are people who have been with ASA 15/20/25 years who would love to get Tower jobs who are being passed over for transfer/promtions because staffing has been that critical for years that they are unable to be released to the job they have won.

I appreciate your point, you're right, it's terrible for morale and career progression. However .... ASA is so understaffed at the moment, that the most expedient course is to take RAAFies who are already TWR/APP trained and experienced (especially if they have joint user base ratings) and put them straight into TWR/APP jobs. Retraining them in enroute takes far more time and isn't the most efficient use of their existing skill set.

Likewise, moving ASA controllers between streams necessitates more training and ASA just don't have the capacity for that atm. Sucks that, once again, the controllers suffer for the mismanagement thrust upon them over the last decade or two, but it does, at least, make sense.

As for the holes it leaves in RAAF ATC, that's another issue, but at least the RAAF school of ATC keeps pumping out trainees regularly and efficiently....:uhoh:

[max1]

RAAFASA,
Our global recruits were ALL radar only rated, some APP rated at busy European capital airports, and were told at interview that they would go to radar sectors. We are very short at TCUs. So where did most end up. Thats right, once they got here the promises made to these people were 're-aligned' (broken) and they were re-trained for procedural sectors even though they had never worked or been trained at procedural control due to Europes pretty much universal radar coverage. The ASA people knew when they were interviewing these people that they would be going to procedural, but inferred something else.
I am not saying they were outright lying, more being economical with the truth along the lines of statements like 'we envisage' and 'the intent is'.

Statements led the Global Recruits (GRs) to believe that they WOULD be going to Radar sectors but with lots of wriggle room for when they arrived and the reality was something else. This is the way ASA treat their staff. Remember TFNs promise of a 'bloody good payrise' and 'making ASA a great place to work'. The culture has become 'Say whatever is convenient at the time and spin it later'. Look at what they've told the government and industry re staffing and improvements e.g. User Preferred Routing(free flight). Industry had been promised UPRs Australiawide at the Waypoint 2008 conference by the middle of 2009. It was never going to happen and won't. Standby for spin.
Service Delivery Environment was stated in November 2006 to be completed by November 2007, still waiting.

ASAs intent was to release people from procedural sectors when the GRs got rated. Bugger all of this has actually happened due to the inefficiencies in SDE and people from these sectors resigning to work O/S. One GR couldn't get rated on procedural (no blame on him) so picked up one of the sought after tower jobs. Go figure.

As I have said I don't blame the RAAFies. What of the future? If at some time in the future (?) we ever get back to anything approaching full staffing would you consider it acceptable for the people who have won the jobs and been with ASA for decades to take up these jobs in TWR/APP and for the RAAFies to move to enroute. If someone has the skill set to do APP it wouldn't be too hard to move to enroute. Would you think the RAAFies now coming in would feel aggrieved that they are put back in the queue to reward these people who through no fault of their own have been missing out for years? DO NOT BE SURPRISED if the RAAFie course is changed after they have signed up and they end up going to enroute.

To those thinking of coming make sure you get everything in writing and, also in writing, that the piece of paper you have will continue to be enforceable after the person who gave you the undertaking has moved on. ASA try to use the convenient argument ,after the event, that the manager who made the undertaking exceeded their authority or the 'corporate memory' is hazy as to what was actually agreed to. If you are thinking of coming remember ethics and integrity have no place in this corporate world.

[ferris]

However .... ASA is so understaffed at the moment, that the most expedient course is to The most expedient course.....perhaps if AsA started valuing their staff AHEAD of expediency, that might be a good place to start in trying to fix things. The change has to start somewhere, sometime. However, I fear there aren't any "leaders" among the "managers". Nor do they understand the difference. I also have serious doubts that employees who know only the toxic AsA culture realise it doesnt have to be that way.

What is the blue suit school of thought, RAAFASA? Is staff welfare subordinate to "expediency"? Especially when "expediency" in the AsA case equals a managers' bonus?

[Chicken Lips]

As for the holes it leaves in RAAF ATC, that's another issue, but at least the RAAF school of ATC keeps pumping out trainees regularly and efficiently....http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/worry.gifExcept the RAAF School is batting between 16 and 33 % pass rate for the last few courses. Recruiting standards are at an all time low, or so I've heard....:ouch:

[Hempy]

Chicken Lips, as my dear old Dad used to say, "son, you get what you pay for".

[RAAFASA]

If at some time in the future (?) we ever get back to anything approaching full staffing would you consider it acceptable for the people who have won the jobs and been with ASA for decades to take up these jobs in TWR/APP and for the RAAFies to move to enroute.

I would find it acceptable now, it's just that it doesn't seem to be possible at the moment. I really feel for those people who thought they had a career progression from outstation twr to radar twr to capital city, or through arrivals to approach to twr . If you've been in ASA for 10+ years that's no doubt what you expected as that was the way things were done (and promised, no doubt).

ATM it seems that your (generic, not personal "you") current sector/TWR/TMA can't release you, plus the school can't re-train you and the area you want to work in is screaming out for people and can't wait for you. So it would make sense to use TWR/APP experienced RAAFies to plug holes in TWR/APP jobs where they should need minimal (TAAATs conversion) retraining before OJT.

I am constantly amazed that ASA take RAAFies who have DN or TVL radar APP experience and then put them on some procedural en-route sector, rather than a Territory or Reef radar sector where they would be familiar with the airspace, traffic patterns and local idiosyncrasies, plus know their radar standards inside out.

Sure, they have the aptitude to cross train onto procedural enroute - but what a waste of their existing abilities. I once thought that Human Resources would make the most of the human resources available to them ....

But the penny seems to have dropped, because several of the RAAFies booked to start an enroute course in early Jan, have recently (try Christmas Eve) been asked to consider a SY TMA or TWR position instead!

What is the blue suit school of thought, RAAFASA? Is staff welfare subordinate to "expediency"?

I can only give you my school of thought, of course, but atm, I'd have to say yes. If it helps avoid TIBA, reduced services and unreasonable overtime requirements on current staff, then let's increase rated controllers asap - even if they are ex-RAAF. The flip side, of course, is that pi$$ed off ASA controllers may keep voting with their feet.... sigh. It should never have been allowed to deteriorate to this stage...

A word about the former blue suiters, too. Remember the culture they come from is quite different to the ASA one. They have been used to being shafted at the last minute (holidays, postings, courses etc) and being required to work extra duties or over time (unpaid and often not compensated by in lieu days) at short notice to cover for their workmates' deployments or illnesses. So until they adjust to civvie life, they may find it hard to say no to requests from management - I know I used to. It's not about the dollar, it's about the "can do" attitude.

Except the RAAF School is batting between 16 and 33 % pass rate for the last few courses. Recruiting standards are at an all time low, or so I've heard..

Don't know about the stats, but I'm grateful that they're not pushing through graduates just to keep their stats up. The new guys are getting ratings so the ones who make it seem to have earned it. It was frustrating and demoralising (in the old days) to see ab initio trainees struggle in OJT, when they should never have graduated in the first place.

[undervaluedATC]

Except the RAAF School is batting between 16 and 33 % pass rate for the last few courses. Recruiting standards are at an all time low, or so I've heard..Don't know about the stats, but I'm grateful that they're not pushing through graduates just to keep their stats up. The new guys are getting ratings so the ones who make it seem to have earned it. It was frustrating and demoralising (in the old days) to see ab initio trainees struggle in OJT, when they should never have graduated in the first place.the pass rate of recent ab initios in Brisbane has not been that flash either

[xxxx1]

True that it was the Philippines project that got WE departed, but it was because of legacy left by his already sacked project manager SP.

The financial 'irregularities' (and the rest) found by auditors were incurred by brissys own SP - who is now apparently now at GHD - good luck mates...

In return to save AsA reputation, SP has since done a deal that it be said he jumped ship instead of being pushed out of the depature lounge. i wonder if the ex-GM will do the same.

[undervaluedATC]

Happy New Year all. My resolution is to try even harder to convince my wife that the terms, conditions, lifestyle, experience, and opportunities gained by working/living as an ATC overseas would far outweigh the pain(?) of leaving all the relatives behind.

[cbradio]

So until they adjust to civvie life, they may find it hard to say no to requests from management -

it should take about 2 weeks in ASA and talking to their workmates to sort out that huge dilemma - nothing to do with a bit of greasy pole climbing I'm sure!

It's not about the dollar, it's about the "can do" attitude.


if it's not the dollar, it is the aforementioned climbing.


not everyone, but an unrepresentative proportion ....

[Plazbot]

geasy pole climbing? One of the Brisbane ALMs filed an event report on one of the fellas for going home 2 minutes early. That's right 2 MINUTES EARLY. These are the pieces of sh!t holding these positions.

[Plazbot]

No sir, it aint no beat up. This particular ALm has all of 2 or 3 years rated but had a number of BOS incudents so they stuck him out the back writing rosters and as a result suck enough c0ck to get an ALM gig. I saw him on day 1 and asked him 'Atre you seriously an ALM?' to which he puffed the chest out and responded 'Yyes, what is the problem?'. Well, apart from the selection criteria about having them selcted from ATCs with ability and experience, nothing:zzz:

I hope he reads and understands that what goes around, comes around. there are a few more that I know who read need to remember this :ok:

Love

plazbot:=

[Hempy]

Sounds like woodies love child. :yuk:

[max1]

Some of the ALMs seem hellbent on delivering the most 'efficient' rosters that they can devise. They ignore the fact that human beings (not them) have to actually work them. Morning, double doggo and then a one day break before returning to work may look efficient, but they are burning people out.

These ALMs are then exasperated when people decline O/T due to fatigue and ask why they can't help ASA out, as though these people owe ASA something.

Current Flight Safety magazine has a good article on fatigue management, and talks about organizations who use fatigue management systems as a necessary evil of a box ticking exercise to be got around, rather than a dedicated safety system. Hmmm, wonder who they are talking about?

The sooner CASA gets in and regulates hours the better.

[undervaluedATC]

Max1: Some of the ALMs seem hellbent on delivering the most 'efficient' rosters that they can devise. They ignore the fact that human beings (not them) have to actually work them.Yes, they do. On more than one group that had moved to POR compliance rosters because of the expiration of FA coincident with the EBA expiration, EVEN after AsA won in the IRC to continue rostering pre-6am starts, some ALMS have decided not to - even though staff have asked for them - because it means there is no triple acquital (for 1 hour, for 1 person, each day, :rolleyes:)

The ALM(s) seems to ignore the fact that most groups voted for a 5am start in order to have someone 'relatively' fresh in the morning rather than the doggo(s) - who has already been awake all night - to sort out the morning push.

[kam16]

Go non ops for the end of the doggo and let them call in staff, or better still the airspace will have to go TIBA.
The ALM's are running scared as TFN days are numbered and they are trying to prove their worth.

[Plazbot]

Will be interesting to see what happens pay/condition wise when the AWAs expire for the ALMs. Pretty cheap way of getting rid of a bunch of top increment people in 5-10 years time if they get the staff numbers up when not paying redundency.

[Roger Standby]

Sounds like woodies love child.

Hempy, ROFLMAO

[oziatc]

Who is the heir apparent?

Between being frustrated by the current negotiation process and AsA's adversarial IR policies if there is any salary cut or even stagnation a large proportion would vote with their feet.

Many of Australia's finest and brightest ATC's would head overseas!

Simply why would they stay unless they were committed because of children completing studies at critical phases or family issues! Many people I talk to are getting to the point that they are considering leaving just because the way AsA is treating them! They are just fed up! They are tired, Grumpy and their family lives are suffering! Who wants to be a perpetually grumpy parent?
Or worse still who in there right mind would want a divorce?


If even 10% of ATC's did walk then there would be a perpetually broken ATC system!
Anything close to an ATC service would take at least 5 years to rebuild. The experience loss would be significant! That being the case it would also heavily rely on ATC expats returning after a 3-5 year stint with other ANSP's!

Lets hope that this suggestion is merely speculation!

[En-Rooter]

Who is the heir apparent?

A drovers dog could run ASA

[man on the ground]

Sounds like woodies love child.

Now, there's some mental imagery I didn't need! :yuk:




A new CEO = review of our rather unique management structure "...100 managers for 700 controllers? scalpel please"

I wouldn't be signing up for that new Mercedes at the moment if I were an ALM. :E

[Blockla]

Many of Australia's finest and brightest ATC's would head overseas!Many of us have already jumped; many manning the lifeboats as we speak.
`
As for 75 people leaving (10%); very unlikely but more likely now than compared to 3 years ago... As for the 10% savings by removing ALMs; my guess is it won't happen, some may go, but only to be 'reassigned' to the boards; many probably would accept the "demotion" with a smile. Additionally the queue for VR would be a mile long; job swap to a redundant position etc.

I wouldn't have even considered moving OS just a very short 12 months ago; now I can't even see myself coming back; well not to ATC in Oz anyway... My better half, who hasn't posted on this thread (by the way), probably wants to come back sooner rather than later; she doesn't want me working for ASA again...

Maybe things will change in the post TFN era, but I suspect there are enough sycophant managers (that will still be there) that have the likes of me in the "no way basket".

"1 goat"

[Here to Help]

Simply why would they stay unless they were committed because of children completing studies at critical phases or family issues! Many people I talk to are getting to the point that they are considering leaving just because the way AsA is treating them! They are just fed up! They are tired, Grumpy and their family lives are suffering! Who wants to be a perpetually grumpy parent?
Or worse still who in there right mind would want a divorce?

Well said and so true.

[hoboe]

Current Flight Safety magazine has a good article on fatigue management, and talks about organizations who use fatigue management systems as a necessary evil of a box ticking exercise to be got around, rather than a dedicated safety system. Hmmm, wonder who they are talking about?



Here is the article

http://www.casa.gov.au/fsa/2008/dec/22-26.pdf

Is Ben Cook talking about ASA when he says on page 2, (my bolding)
...Having been involved as an investigator in a number of fatiguerelated incidents, I know that good fatigue management has the potential to make big improvements to the safety of our industry. I’ve seen the extremes of fatigue management: some organisations, from the CEO all the way down, make a dedicated commitment to managing fatigue, breeding an organisational culture where fatigue management is taken seriously and providing the resources to support the development of a mature FRMS. At the other extreme I’ve seen a number of ‘work-arounds’, e.g. managers defaulting primarily to biomathematical model fatigue scores to determine whether an operator should perform duties. In a number of cases, this has led to a system that looks great on paper, but actually degrades fatigue management due to misapplication of the available tools.

Absolutely. :=

[undervaluedATC]

Kam16: .... TFN days are numbered.... Man on the ground: A new CEO Well, obviously the new year has given some a new sense of hope.

Much as I would love to see him gone after what he has done to morale in particular and the company in general, the only way TFN is going is if he is pushed.

Given that he was appointed by the previous government, has overseen unprecendented levels of TIBA and is still in his position says to me that the man is very well connected. (or has influence of some other kind perhaps)

Why else has big Tony not got rid of him with the convenient excuse of "previous government appointee"?

[max1]

One reason they may not have gotten rid of him yet is because there is no way we have reached the bottom of this debacle .

Even if we got a competent CEO, it will take years to dig us out of the mess he and his hand picked cronies have got us into. As much as the controllers and Civilair have repeatedly told them over the years that there is a big staffing issue, they have ignored it.

If Big Tony gave him the boot and got someone new in, the new CEO would still have to answer for this stuff-up for years to come. The Opposition would go to town on saying that if the Government had left TFN in, these problems would have been sorted.

Politically it is smarter(I'm not saying it is right) to leave the incumbent in to drown, or let him leave of his own volition than to replace him. If he leaves under his own steam then Big Tony can point to the mess he left rather than defending why he was replaced, and all the dramas in the meantime can be nailed to his door.

There is still a lot of drama to come.

[oziatc]

Don't forget 4 yrs to go on contract as well!

[max1]

Thanks oziatc thats made my day.


Not....



What we have at the moment is ASAs version of The Emperors New Clothes aka SDE.
Never underestimate the power of a flash PowerPoint presentation to those with no idea. It's how the Real Estate/Financial spruikers suck so many in, and its how PC flogged SDE.

PC sold it to TFN (no ATC background), they then sold it to the Board (no ATC background). They are now in the position of Mutually Assured Destruction. If TFN sacks PC because SDE is fatally flawed, he looks stupid for having endorsed it to the Board and may go the same way. If the Board sacks TFN they look stupid for having endorsed it, and may be asked questions by Big Tony.

If any of the managers question SDE they would be seen as non-team players for questioning the "Vision" and put their positions at risk.This goes down to the ALMs, who have told me privately of their serious misgivings but are content to pick up their large salaries, do whatever is asked of them and wait for it to die a death.

It is just like the NAS debacle. Lots of time and money will be spent on a fatally flawed project that due to office politics no-one is prepared to challenge.
Just like NAS and other myriad CB inspired ideas,it will come down to controllers questioning the safety and benefits of the project. That way management can lay the blame on us rather than their own ill-conceived,ill-planned and under resourced management wet-dreams.

For those who haven't taken the time to read what is planned for SDE I suggest you especially have a look at the Endorsement stream. Their 'vision' is for generic ratings. The 'vision' for where I am is for a generic Arrivals rating encompassing Darwin and the East Coast from Cairns to Sydney. This would involve knowing all the STARS and their transition points and what is required for Runway changes, probably upwards of 80 restricted areas and their vertical and lateral boundaries, God knows how many different frequencies and their transfer points, level assignments into the different Civil and Military Towers, you would also be expected to know suitable landing areas in case of IFER (the lawyers would have a field day at any inquest), and the list goes on.
It is like the airlines having pilots rated on the A320, B737 and B747 and moving pilots around to cover, after all its still a plane.

Management feel that we are constrained by geographic boundaries and that by standardisation they can do away with the need for sector specific knowledge. One of the ways to do this will be to 're-align' Airways Routes. I am sure the airlines will be gushing with love when they find out they will be flying further track miles to 'standardise' airspace.

This is but one part of 'Delivering the Future'. There are parts that are very doable like User Preferred Routing over the Pacific and in the Outback, but they never required SDE anyway, and SDE has actually delayed these benefits to the Industry.

Anyway time will tell, ASA has already blown tens of millions on this project and will continue to waste the Airlines money. It is what they do best.

[man on the ground]

Man on the ground: A new CEO
Well, obviously the new year has given some a new sense of hope.

Alas, no undue new years optimism - meant to preface it with "when we get ...".

Actually the longer it takes, the less chance of any ALM being able to return to a console (not that many could now!), thus the more "limited" their career options within the empire will be :E

[Maggott17]

Airservices Australia can solve its ATC staff problem by splitting ASA into two organisations again and closing one ATC centre.

The new ATC organisation can save face and get on with ATC and the rest of ASA can be called something else and sold off. The old fArts can retire or go overseas and the young guns can PUSH the TIN to their hearts content.

Why does ASA need:

AIS - sell to Jeppesen or LIDO
Firefighters - sell to state fire department or airport
a college - put it in a real school and contract the instructors
a huge HR department - contract a real HR organisation
a huge PR department - come in spinner
a useless global marketing department - the global market is dead
navigation aids - sell to airports or implement GNSS
navigation aid technicians - IVR or be employed by airports.You could even sell the Towers and Approach to the airports and just leave OZZIEATC as an enroute organisation.

The money saved by closing one centre, and the money gained by selling the land to the airport will pay for the expansion of the centre that remains and the associated staff costs with a resectorisation will up the profits to Sir Kevin and his boys without hurting the Minister for QANTAS's bottom line.

The rich and famous car radio installer would love it too.

[sunnySA]

Maggott17 wrote

Airservices Australia can solve its ATC staff problem by splitting ASA into two organisations again and closing one ATC centre.

The new ATC organisation can save face and get on with ATC and the rest of ASA can be called something else and sold off. The old fArts can retire or go overseas and the young guns can PUSH the TIN to their hearts content.

Why does ASA need:

AIS - sell to Jeppesen or LIDO
Firefighters - sell to state fire department or airport
a college - put it in a real school and contract the instructors
a huge HR department - contract a real HR organisation
a huge PR department - come in spinner
a useless global marketing department - the global market is dead
navigation aids - sell to airports or implement GNSS
navigation aid technicians - IVR or be employed by airports.You could even sell the Towers and Approach to the airports and just leave OZZIEATC as an enroute organisation.

The money saved by closing one centre, and the money gained by selling the land to the airport will pay for the expansion of the centre that remains and the associated staff costs with a resectorisation will up the profits to Sir Kevin and his boys without hurting the Minister for QANTAS's bottom line.

The rich and famous car radio installer would love it too.


I've never seen so much crap

[oziatc]

Maggot17,
Never going to happen!

ARFF sell off maybe! the CEO alluded to in the sentate's estimates report that they were not necessarily wanting to provide services at certain locations as it didn't pay, but was required as part of our service provision. As to whether they may consider the ARFF as a salable package who knows?

When HR realise that they need to work at retaining staff, and that is their primary role hopefully things will change! Unfortunately that philosophy needs to come from the Board/CEO down and performance bonuses based on money saved need to be scrapped! Not losing controllers as far as the balance sheet is concerned is an intangible asset or goodwill which is whatever someone thinks it is worth! Not something to base your bonus on!

ATC Instructors need to be current and really need to be short term rotations off operational consoles. The problem is again numbers!!!
We all know that ATC is a game of currency in order to retain judgment and efficiency. Therefore to make it work you need to at least retain some degree of salary maintenance to attract these sort of people. You get what you pay for! I looked at this path some time ago but realised that I would take a $50,000 salary cut minimum! This is particularly critical since the success rate out of the college has not been great! With the tower sim they really need tower SME's to develop lessons if not generally, certainly specifically for locations with regard to retraining after incidents!

The technology needed for a school other than a self funded AsA school would be prohibitive (ie overly expensive for an established tertiary institution) and restrictive at the rate at which they would be prepared to put candidates through. The reason being is that in such a circumstances a tertiary institution will always add more to a course to make it attractive to overseas clients, those wanting to gain more than an ATC education etc. Just look at the UTOL experience!

Splitting off towers and approach units would be unsustainable here in Aus due to the salaries that the positions currently command and the complexity currently present in these jobs. Other ANSP's have gone down the path of simplifying Tower and Approach but at the consequence of loading up the enroute boys. What this does is shift risk and complexity but not eliminate it! Do you really want to take on more workload? Currently we handle more aircraft per ATC than anywhere else in the world for certain locations. On top of staff shortages this would be a real problem. The other issue with such a workload shift is that the skill set of Tower and Approach controllers is reduced. Unfortunately it's a one way trip and to gain that skill again after the older hands are gone is difficult!

My opinion regarding generic ratings is that I wouldn't write them off altogether! I think that some groupings may work (although I'm not an enroute controller!) if there is a sensible accounting for complexity and ability to exercise the same skill set why not?
The real issue would be currency and proficiency!
I remember in the old days Essendon and Melbourne towers used to have a joint roster. It was manageable for some. I'm not sure if any of those guys are around to ask if there were inherent problems they had to look out for, but it did work!
I'm not saying that generic rating are a good thing overall but there may possibly be some groupings that might work, but an overall concept encompassing the majority of sectors in my opinion is not currently conceivable. The the major headache again would be the numbers required to redesign airspace boundaries and the extra training required!

Like any theory some elements may work but may require compromises and a rethink after thoughrough evaluation after testing.

Ozi