Merged: ASA Staff Shortage

[ferris]

In a brilliant move, ASA CEO Greg Russell has solved the ATC staffing shortage. He has shamed the controllers into giving up what was clearly orchestrated industrial action.

It's good news for all concerned. There will be no more TIBA. There is no shortage, and the non-existent shortage that isn't there will be solved within a month. The sooner controllers, sorry, renegades give up on their industrial agenda and work on more of their days off, the better off everyone with at-risk remuneration will be.
http://http://www.theage.com.au/national/renegade-controllers-leave-pilots-flying-blind-air-chief-20080725-3l2x.html

I have to say, it is a brilliant HR strategy. All those planning on, or thinking about, resigning will appreciate the clear leadership shown. Anyone thinking about having a day off needs to think about their priorities, as well.

I am certain Kerry O'Brien would love to have Greg on for an interview to gain further insight into his awesome leadership. Greg should probably attend Senate Estimates and correct the outright incompetence displayed by Mr. Harfield when he LIED to the committee and told them there was an over-reliance by AsA on overtime.


Just awesome.

[undervaluedATC]

for those not in the know reading the article where it says "service interruptions have soared in frequency in the last 8 months"

hmm.... if memory serves, that was about the time that 108 controllers were "promoted" into Line managers, who no longer control traffic.... but I'm sure there's no correlation there. At all.

[Biggles_in_Oz]

From that articleMr Russell concedes a shortage of 17, but believes the problem will be overcome within a month.Does that mean that managers will be told to go back and work traffic ?

[Robbovic]

It is also interesting that you can date the sudden upsurge in TIBA almost to the day of the last SDE changes. Before that, TIBA was almost unheard of.
One of the few occurrences was in the mid to late 90's in the old Melbourne Centre - there was a social function organised by the Team Leader for those sectors that went TIBA and no replacements could be found for the controllers who went "sick" on that particular Saturday night. That TL just happens to be a current GM.
What is particularly galling about the current situation is that 2nd, 3rd and even 4th level managers who not so long ago were willing to partake of the sick leave entitlements available to controllers are now the most vocal in condemning current controllers for exercising those entitlements and, indeed, obligations.
Looks like it is now "two legs good, four legs bad".

[Driscoll]

undervaluedATC,

lets not forget those controllers that had to give up half their endorsements with the introduction of the wonderfully inefficient Service Delivery Environment.

Also JH in his Waypoint speech said that 15700 (1.4 per staff member per month) shifts were lost to absenteeism from a workforce of 900 yet those nine hundred only averaged 1.2 OT shifts per month equating to OT of 12960 shifts by my calculations. Surely with 2740 unfilled shifts plus another 4500 odd for the 18 positions short (total average of 19.8 a day) we would have seen even more TIBA. Unless of course someone has fudged the numbers hoping no one would look into it too closely.

My feeling is that sick leave numbers have been overstated and OT numbers understated to pin this on controllers. Even the delivery demonstrates this, sick leave in one large sum, OT divided up on a per controller per month basis. Classic spin doctoring.

It's a shame that the media either push their agenda or fall for spin. Though maybe I'm just a conspiracy theorist, after all, I'm apparently a renegade.

[undervaluedATC]

lets not forget those controllers that had to give up half their endorsements with the introduction of the wonderfully inefficient Service Delivery Environment

Good point Driscoll, thanks for reminding me. To clarify for our readers, this is a seperate group of controllers from the promoted ALM's who were told to go and cross-train on new airspace to enable SDE - since there are only so many hours in the day, they could not maintain recency on their old airspace, so there were even less qualified staff to fill any absences. Something which was pointed out to proponents of SDE prior to the event, BTW.

[BN_centre]

JH conveniently forgot to mention that the 15700 shifts lost to absenteeism included those on long term sick leave (cancer, stress and the like).

[tobzalp]

From his (JH) own figures, only 38% of overtime is due to sick leave. 38% is for staff shortage and the remainder is for training and leave etc. Now to me (and anyone for that matter), training and leave are a requirement of the roster so therefore are covered by staff shortage(nice spin JH). This means that a STAGGERING 62% of overtime is to cover staff shortages due insufficient total numbers BEFORE SICK LEAVE.

Now, as per more of his figures, each staff member has 1.5 days extra attendance a month allocated to them to cover the needs of the ALM. With this now additional 62% Due Staff Shortage on top of that, that an additional 1.7 days is required. Now, as that adds up to 3.2 which is more than 3, just as the absolute base requirement per controller is 4 days a month overtime just to keep the doors open.

That means NEVER EVER having a 2 day 'weekend'. EVER.


Are we getting it yet? TIBA is not happening due to sick leave. TIBA is happening because that fool TFN sat there with a worried look on one of his two faces three years ago and nodded at everything we told him was wrong with the place staffing wise the CUT STAFF FURTHER.

How dare you blame the controllers. Pathetic.

[aussiegal]

I have an idea Greg, how about getting your non-endorsed ALM's (around 100 or so) to get the "headset" out of mothballs and pony-up, you pay them around 173-185 000, get some more "bang for your bucks" (so to speak!!).

[Funk]

Every time I get homesick and think about coming back I read about this crap...'Hun would you mind if we just stayed here till retirement?'

You guys are in the midst of the industrial game now hold the line and F*%$ what Joe Public or the commercial press thinks (don't sweat the analogous '89 Pliot's strike cause Civil Air just isn't that reckless).

History Lesson
When I finished college and started work on a Bass Strait oil rig in 1989 I was making nearly $20K a year more than my father as a Arrivals (Area) controller after he worked every O/T he could get (I was working 4 weeks on 4 weeks off plus 4 weeks annual leave).

[max1]

I posted this elsewhere but think it is pertinent

TIBA is not a result of looking forward at the upcoming EBA, but actually looking back at the way we have been used and ignored for the last 10 years.
We are actually recompensed for coming in our days off, but are tired of having to do it.

Tired of telling them for years there is a staffing problem.
Tired of being told for years that there is no staffing problem.
Tired of BS press releases that say that ASA were unaware of the problem.
Tired of assurances that they are now aware and it is now being addressed.
Tired of bloated management structures.
Tired of being tired.
Tired of letting our families down.
Tired of not being released for jobs we have won.
Tired of weasel words.
And Tired of being slandered in the media.

ASA have said they are recruiting 95 controllers this year and 100 next year, THEY ARE NOT. They are ATTEMPTING to recruit TRAINEES. They want people who have a degree (to show they can study),and who have some workforce experience (to show they can work) for this they are willing to offer $35k p.a. There is no guarantee they will get through after 18 months. Washout is tracking around 50%.

The people we REALLY need, are already probably earning around $50k and are smart enough to realise why take a drop in pay to work for that, and have no guarantee of a job, and then take 13 years to get to the ceiling(@135k), work shiftwork, Xmas , Easter, and can be rung 24/7/ 365 to attend . The people we really want will probably be making our top money in 10 years where they are with no ceiling and no shiftwork.

The 63% quoted payrise was not suggested for CONTROLLERS, it was suggested to attract suitable applicants to get them to apply. We are not asking for 63%. We suggested somewhere over $52K would be what ASA should be advertising to get the right people, so we don't waste expensive training resources on people who can't make it.

The spin doctors leapt on this and fed it to their tame reporter mates getting them to quote 63%,63%,63% which I notice has now crept to 64% in The Age article .

Since then its all been about ASA damage control. You can only keep drawing on your controllers goodwill, and pride in keeing the airspace open for so long, and ASA passed it about 12 months ago. When they took 106 controllers off the line by offering up to 100% pay increases to sign AWAs and become managers Some have less than 2 years experience.

They no longer manage aircraft, they manage 'people' , it is about one $160-185k manager to 10 controllers.
Who is co-erced into yet again filling the management induced holes in the roster.

I have had enough, I am looking back 10 years, not looking forward to an EBA that is still 5 months away.
When ASA own up to their mistakes, and I CAN SEE (not BS press releases that have no basis in fact) that they are taking REAL steps to address the staffing problems that they have created, and that the light at the end of the tunnel isn't another freight train, then I will be willing to leave my family and work on MY DAYS OFF to alleviate TIBA.

[No Further Requirements]

Max1: Nice work. Sums it up nicely.

Cheers,

NFR.

PS. Makes no difference to me now - I couldn't be released for a job I won so I released myself.....28 days to go!

[west atc]

One Bass controller won a Melbourne TCU job but now that another Bass controller has resigned he can't be released to Melbourne TCU even though they are about 5 staff short. Go figure! :ugh:

There's no point applying for an internal transfer because there's never any realistic chance to be released.

Looks like external applications are the only way to move out of where you are.....hmmm now there's an idea.

BTW the exodus has begun, the Irish won't be short staffed for much longer. :ok:

How many are due to leave by the end of the year, I know of around 7-10 who will be gone by the end of this year. But of course we will still be only 18 short. :yuk:

[Chu Mai Huang]

ASA Solves Staff Shortage
Ah! that explains why my friend down in Melbourne tells me that the simulator next door is empty most of the time. 10 work stations gathering dust.

[fower]

I am certain Kerry O'Brien would love to have Greg on for an interview to gain further insight into his awesome leadership.

watch the 730 report either tuesday or wednesday this week. rumour has it, camera crew was in the new $6.5mil tower sim (that doesn't work yet and has no trainees) being shown how committed AsA was to training, they asked to see it in action with some trainees..... ummmm, we don't have any tower trainees......

[BeGoneTFN]

Have had a few rants today, won't waste any time here.

TFN for the sake of ASA, go away please.

You do not deserve to be our CEO, you are a disgrace.

Why on earth are you still here, surely you can't do anymore damage. Well actually maybe you still can , I guess you could really stuff up the EBA just to try and make a name for yourself.

You must have a massive ego as you obviously are not concerned with how you might be remembered by those whom you have effected whilst charged with the governance of the organisation. What was previously a great organisation.

I'll finish by stating that whilst Bernie was the boss he was sure to do the rounds, shook his hand plenty of times, when you took over all you could do was send out a DVD hoping the masses would throng to your show, never saw it, have'nt seen your nasty head in all the years you have been our alleged saviour, if you turned up I could promise I would not give you the time of day.

I do not support you or your direction of my organisataion, the organisation that through my training I have dedicated a large part of my life, you will come and go and not give a rats arse for the place or the people.

DO US ALL A FAVOUR A NICK OFF A HOLE!

BgTFN
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[BurglarsDog]

Does anyone in the TC know what plans may be afoot regarding the utilisation of the new sim and the timescales of any App and Twr courses that may be planned? Also, noticed that ASA were advertising for TC staff a while back. Any new faces in the TC? If anyone would care to PM me Id be interested in knowing a little more about the current modus operandi of the place.
Thanks
DogGone:ok:

[BeGoneTFN]

BDog,

My understanding is that no resources are available to write the sim exercises so don't hold your breath. I'm told it looks good!

BgTFN

[max1]

Also heard that TFN and entourage were in ML at the College being filmed by 7.30 report.They showed off the flash new tower sim and were asked by the crew if they could film it in action. 'Aaaahhh... we don't actually have any trainees'.
TFN trots out the number 972 controllers. I'm stuffed if I can find the missing 220 though. Not on any daysheets I've seen.
Supposed to be on air last night, but didn't . Tonight maybe?

[undervaluedATC]

from www.civilair.asn.au (http://www.civilair.asn.au)

Press Release
August 26, 2008
Can't retain, can't recruit ... and now can't train

Today's confirmation that Airservices Australia doesn't have enough instructors to train new air traffic controllers means airspace closures are set to continue - despite Airservices' promise that it would fix Australia's chronic shortage of air traffic controllers by September 1.

Today's Sydney Morning Herald reports that Airservices has recruits filling time on pilot simulators despite its promise the Senate Estimates Committee to train 80 to 100 recruits per year for the next five years.
Recruits are training themselves on simulators, without supervision from instructors, because of staff shortages at the Melbourne training academy.
Peter McGuane, executive secretary of Civil Air, says today's revelations are another major embarrassment for Australia's aviation safety provider which will struggle to train 60 new recruits a year.
"Thanks to Airservices cutbacks, poor planning, and a reorganisation that turned 100 air traffic controllers into managers, Australia is short by more than 100 air traffic controllers.
"An overseas recruiting effort attracted only 25 of the target of 40-80 overseas air traffic controllers.
"Meanwhile Australian air traffic controllers are heading overseas for the better wages and conditions offered in the global marketplace or reaching retirement age.

"The result of this has been increasing sectors of unsupervised air space, where pilots have to monitor each others' position.
"Airservices CEO Greg Russell has promised that by September 1 Airservices would have adequate trained staff and there would be no more air space closures.
"Air traffic controllers are doing their best - rostered to work around the clock, covering reasonable overtime for roster shortfalls or ill colleagues - but the system is near collapse and that's the employer's responsibility.
"The shortage of air traffic controllers flows into a shortage of instructors at the training academy, and the training for each new recruit takes up to two years.
Airservices claims a national shortage of only 17 air traffic controllers. Their union, Civil Air, believes the real figure is more than 100.

Media enquiries should be directed to:
Peter McGuane, Executive Secretary 0412 538 336
Andrew Taylor 0411 156 797



very interested to see how TFN fixes the staffing problem by end end of august - in 5 days time.

[max1]

Look likes someones chooks are coming home to roost.
I appreciate that Civilair wrote the above, but it looks like the general media are finally realising that TFN has been 'BS'ing them.
"Hell hath no fury like a media duped"

[Howabout]

Once again, fairly interesting stuff. But does anyone have to take responsibility for this state of affairs? You guys can't (allegedly) service the airspace. Your CEO (allegedly) promised a solution. Is this going to happen?

[ferris]

"All current courses are running according to the planned schedule."
Airservices said it had a rotation plan that allowed instructors to swap between the academy and the country's control centres.


Plans, plans everywhere, yet not a drop to drink.................

It's wonderful that developing plans is an effective mitigator to actually doing anything. I wonder what would happen if the workers adopted the lead shown by "management", and began separating by plan? Or planning when they will attend work, rather than attending....this sounds like fun!!

The new Airservices business motto: If you can't do something- plan it!
it makes the media happy

[ER_BN]

Wow,

Maybe the media has finally cracked on to realising that just because its in a glossy brochure does not mean its really happening....

What could be next....OHHHHH a realisation that AsA's reals core business is not brochure publishing!!!

PS Can somebody tell the board??

[undervaluedATC]

and this was in the courier mail today as well:

Air force in bid to stop staff exodus

Cameron Stewart | August 26, 2008
THE air force does not have enough air traffic controllers to monitor all its planes and has pleaded with staff not to quit for better-paid civilian jobs.
RAAF chief Air Marshal Mark Binskin has written to his 237 air traffic controllers urging that they not feel "pressured hastily" into resigning, promising them more money and "aggressive" action to improve their conditions.
The move is aimed at stemming a recent spate of resignations among RAAF controllers, many of whom have joined the civil air traffic control manager Airservices Australia, which is also desperately short of qualified controllers.
An Airservices spokesman said it had offered jobs to 14 RAAF controllers so far this year and the air force admitted it was now suffering an 8.1per cent shortfall of military controllers.
As a result, the RAAF conceded that it could no longer adequately monitor all of its military flights around defence airfields.
"Individual air traffic control officer shortages at some Australian Defence Force bases at times have resulted in restrictions to air traffic services to military aircraft," a defence spokesman said.
Defence has its own network of air traffic controllers which - apart from several exceptions - is separate to the civil network of controllers.
Defence controllers are distributed across 11 ADF bases including at Townsville, Amberley, Williamtown, Darwin, Nowra and Tindal.
But concerns about the growing shortage of RAAF controllers prompted Air Marshal Binskin to write an impassioned plea to them this month to remain with the military.
"Do not allow yourself to be pressured hastily into taking positions outside of air force that are likely to be available for many years to come," he wrote in a letter dated August 7 and obtained by The Australian.
"I recognise the competitive external environment and have directed the investigation of targeted remuneration options in the short term."
Air Marshal Binskin said he had ordered "aggressive" action, including contracting specialist industrial advisers to look at improvements in conditions.
"While I acknowledge that some of you may choose to leave the air force to pursue other opportunities, I urge you to look closely at the value package which air force provides before electing to do so," Air Marshal Binskin writes.
"I also urge you to look closely at the culture, environment and current working practices that are evident in outside employment and analyse closely the opportunities available in defence by comparison."
His comments are a thinly veiled swipe at Airservices, which has been involved in a public dispute with its 800 civilian controllers, who have accused the agency of failing to properly manage staffing levels.
Defence says it currently has 212 RAAF and 25 defence department air traffic controllers, an 8.1per cent shortfall on its target workforce of 223 RAAF and 35 defence controllers.
A defence spokesman declined to say how much extra money would be offered to military controllers to help attract and retain them.
At present, newly qualified RAAF controllers receive a salary and allowance of almost $60,000, compared with about $72,000 for a similarly qualified civilian controller.
A national shortage of air traffic controllers has left large slabs of the skies unmonitored for hours at a time this year.




so now it'll be even harder for AsA to poach from the military - lucky we are "only 17 short" hey?

[Teal]

Interesting snippet from the rumour section of crikey.com.au today:

There is much trepidation within the walls of the Alan Woods building in Canberra this week, as Airservices Australia employees ponder who is set to be appointed to replace the troubled CEO Greg Russell. Following on from the unsurprising announcement that CASA CEO Bruce Byron will not contend his position next year, there is little surprise, within what is colloquially known as "bullsh-t castle", that Russell will be leaving to "spend more time with his family". Russell had little choice in reality -- his main charter to the government was to provide an adequate and safe Air Traffic Control service. Despite spirited attempts at shifting the blame of failure to his own staff with some savage assaults in the media, the Air Traffic Services in Australia have become third world.

With little prospect of recovery for some years thanks to countless reorganisations, and a decimation of training resources under the stewardship of Russell and his senior management, the focus came back squarely on the dysfunctional management of the organisation. Several high level scalps have already gone over the past 18 months and nervousness is now quite noticeable in the corner offices as CV's are dusted off. It seems there are few now willing to be associated with the senior managements vision. Anthony Albanaese is apparently not impressed either at being led astray -- there are some serious questions as to the "accuracy" of replies given in the previous Senate Estimates -- and rumours of a complete outsider to replace Russell have tongues wagging. Whoever it is will have a tough job ahead of them. Building back the respect and trust of their workforce is going to take years in itself, assuming any of the highly skilled operational staff bother staying at all.

[BeGoneTFN]

About time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But alas a little late, I hear the German and Irish interviewers have been very busy on their current headhunting mission.

The federal minister better had get his act together for I can feel an exedus coming on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:E

F**k off TFN

BgTFN

[peuce]

As long as they keep bringing in "astute business people" to run the show ... expect more of the same.

[undervaluedATC]

a little history that may be pertinent to our staffing problem(s) at the academy

from the budget estimates senate hearing in MAY 2006 (p.103 onwards), available at:
http://parlinfoweb.aph.gov.au/piweb/Repository/Commttee/Estimate/Linked/4719-8.PDF

(the emphasis is my own, but otherwise a straight cut & paste)



Senator O’BRIEN Can you provide us with an outline of the major restructure announced on 1 March 2006?
Mr Russell I came to this organisation in July last year. We made the announcement on the initial part working our way through that process in the meantime. We expect to have the restructure complete by June.



Senator O’BRIEN
How many staff have lost their jobs so far?
Mr Russell So far there are 58 staff who have left the organisation. About half of them are the result of voluntary redundancies. The total program, from commencement until the end of June next year, will see approximately 325 staff leave the business during that period.

They have come from areas where, as we have restructured the business and put together our human resource functions, our finance functions and some of our training areas, there is duplication in the first instance.


secondly:
Senator O’BRIEN With the restructuring of the group responsible for air traffic control training, who will now be responsible for training and where is it envisaged that these resources will be drawn from?

Mr Russell We intend to develop the training function within the organisation. We have had in place an ATC training college based at our facility in Melbourne and the college has, in our view, been in need of some restructuring with a view to making it more effective. As an indication, the amount of money that the organisation spends every year on training is in the order of $30 million, $26 million of which is largely spent on air traffic control operations training and fire service training. We think we can get better value for that money.

Our aim is to introduce some new technology into the training process and it goes to issues such as voice recognition in the training process and capital expenditure—we intend to put a new 360-degree tower simulator into the Melbourne facility; we have not had one so far. The plan is to make that organisation, I think, more cost-effective, effective and competitive so that we can sell those services to the overseas markets. There is a lot of demand for Australia’s expertise in this area. If we can get it priced appropriately, I believe there is, in conjunction with some Australian universities, potentially a good revenue stream there.


and lastly:
Senator O’BRIEN You may have told me this earlier but I did not pick it up: the 325 staff to go obviously means there are a number of iterations of the restructuring. What is the next phase?

Mr Russell We have worked through the top-level management of the business. That started with the appointment of a new general manager structure, then the people that report to those general managers, and so on. We are into finalising the fourth level of that structure, so we will fundamentally have the management team completed by the end of June. As part of the process, we conducted a voluntary redundancy program. As I mentioned, about half of the 58 people who have left us so far have come from that area. The remainder of the total number of 325 will largely come from work in our finance area.

We are looking at outsourcing some functions and a reorganisation of the training area. At this point, the 325 does not include any outcomes from the review of air traffic control. We just do not have a feel for what that review means at the moment.

[max1]

There is no training plan.

It has been asked repeatedly for the training plan to be published, so those involved at the centres can assess their requirements.

The ALMs ( front line managers) have not been told when the trainees will be arriving and are not rostering for it. No Level 3 manager ( the ones who are supposed to be given the big picture from upper management) has yet published their training plan even though they were supposed to be disseminated by the end of June.

Here we are nearly nine months into a 24 month ramp up of training and no-one knows what is going on.

The latest course is twiddling its thumbs in the ' Learning Academy' awaiting instructors.

This stuff-up will take years to fix. Unfortunately everytime the Association points out a looming problem to ASA bureaucrats they stick their fingers in their ears and cry "Industrial issues". The bureaucrats refuse to listen to their Level 3s and ALMs and controllers. I have also heard that TFN now doesn't want to listen to the GM ATC. He has hung his hat on his 'chosen ones' and will continue down this path regardless.

Did someone say "Iceberg"?

[BeGoneTFN]

The National will save us!



iceberg on the port side!



NAB, ATS training specialists, go you good thing! WHOAooooooooooooo.

Ahh whats a DME, I'll get back to you after I ask someone who knows what a DME is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its time to get serious again, this could be lives we're talking about!:sad:

[amberale]

A little birdie told me of a briefing from an ATS trainer to the exNAB management at the Academy.
"These are your requirements under the CARs"
" Oh yes, but we won't have to worry about those pesky things"
" If you don't comply with the requirements of CAR's you will face criminal charges and go to gaol"
"WHAT, do you mean these are legal requirements??????"

They have no idea.

AA

[Lodown]

AsA management have been absolutely delighted to wear the big boot in many past wage negotiations. The same worn out excuses that never fail to send a chill down young ATC spines: "Our clients can't afford it." "We can't afford it." "If we can't make a profit, we can't stay in business." What happens now that the boot finds itself on another foot?

If I were Albanese, I'd be taking a broom to the AsA board as well. The board members are not without blame in this fiasco.

[Nautilus Blue]

Lowdown, I think the board are entirely responsible. What are they there for if not to ultimately oversee everything A$A does?

[Starts with P]

Aanyone go t acopy of the email about reduced staffing/services at Bankstown?

[undervaluedATC]

Anyone got a copy of the email about reduced staffing/services at Bankstown?

I'd be careful with that.
I have sighted an email that I would love to share publicly on the thread I started about AsA's push for obligatory overtime, but have been advised that posting it there might betray commercial confidences.:mad:

Unfortunately.

[Starts with P]

UATC, this email was sent to Bankstown operators. As a pilot who flies there, I was just wondering if anyone has a copy. Heard about it, but haven't seen it. It's a public email.

[undervaluedATC]

direct.no.speed, the email I'm talking about is not directly related to air safety as such, but was from a manager-type complaining about overtime.

and back on topic,

3 days left for TFN to fix the staffing problem. - maybe he's going to work all weekend?

perhaps it will all be explained at the next "accelerated negotiations" meeting tomorrow.:hmm:

[undervaluedATC]

perhaps it will all be explained at the next "accelerated negotiations" meeting tomorrow.http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/yeees.gif

actually, no. (not that I'm surprised)
the good ship SS AsA just declared ramming speed for the iceberg.

They are still pushing for
1. obligatory overtime ('because I'm an employee, in thier opinion, I HAVE to do overtime)
2. "simplified" redeployment/redundancy procedures..... hmmmm.
3. keeping greviances in-house, and much harder to reach an external independant authority
4. consultation - AsA will tell us about things, listen to our viewpoint, but still make decisions that are "best for the business" - whether we agree or not
5. flexibility - allow individual variation to things such as: hours of work; starting times, shift lengths & breaks; penalty rates; redeployment/redundancy;
6. discipline


I can't wait to see what TFN and board do tomorrow (Sunday) to fix the staffing problem by 1st of September. :rolleyes:

[lestump]

Found this: Note the date. And as yet we are still not actually withdrawing our agreement to work overtime. As yet.



23rd August 2005, 22:06 #1 (permalink)
Nomorecrap


Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: In Limbo
Posts: 45 ATC Staff Shortage set to bite

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A little birdy tells me that ATC staff are going to stop working on their days off from next week.

Some impact expected at the major cities.

Apparently constant overtime is all that has been keeping the airspace open for quite some time.

Funny - I thought I read about Airservices getting an International Award for being the best ANSP.

Maybe they meant the best for their profits!

[missy]

Airservices Australia has "won" the IATA Eagle Award twice, 1999 and 2005,

Since 1998 Eagle Awards have been given to leading airport operators and ANS provider organisations who demonstrated exceptional commitment to control infrastructure costs and related charges. Eagle Award winners are selected by a neutral and independent panel of aviation industry professionals.

exceptional commitment to control infrastructure costs and related charges

Nothing about on-time performance, safety, customer service, customer satisfaction, staff satisfaction - its just about costs and charges.

Other winners have included LFV of Sweden, Airways Corporation of New Zealand, Estonian Air Navigation Services, The General Civil Aviation Authority of the United Arab Emirates, NAVCANADA, DFS Deutsche Flugsicherung and the Irish Aviation Authority.

[kam16]

Hey TFN, some questions for you?

It is now the magical day where all our staffing issues are solved, yet I have been asked to do two AD's (overtimes) this week. What is going on?
Please don't tell me you are telling porky pies to your staff and the naive public! :=

Found those renegade ATC's yet?

Love your work and can not wait to hear who is to blame now we still have no staff. :ugh:

When do you leave?

[LapSap]

its just about costs and charges

Unfortunatley Missy, if you've ever sat in on a meeting with IATA reps, you'd know that that is ALL they are interested in. The rest is a given.

[missy]

Oh perhaps therein lies the problem. The rest is a given.

Staff giving up their days off to come to work to prop up an ailing air traffic control system. Staff satisfaction plummeting, on-time performance deteriorating as service interruption continue, safety (??), customer service nose diving, customer satisfaction at an all time low (??).

Is there any goodwill left?

[undervaluedATC]

from www.civilair.asn.au (http://www.civilair.asn.au)

Media Release: Air Traffic Controller shortage fixed?

Monday, 01 September 2008

Today is the day Australia's chronic shortgae of air traffic controllers should officially end.


That’s the promise of Airservices CEO Greg Russell in an internal email to staff on July 30, responding to criticism of the agency’s inability to provide supervised airspace for flights over Australia.
Earlier, on May 28, Airservices told Senate Estimates hearings that Airservices was working to remedy the official shortfall of 21 air traffic controllers. Civil Air, the air traffic controllers’ association, is sceptical of Airservices’ claims and believes the real figure is more than 100.
Civil Air executive secretary Peter McGuane says Airservices was largely unsuccessful in its efforts to recruit overseas air traffic controllers, and last week was exposed in the media for its impossible commitment to train a further 80-100 new ATCs each year for the next five years.
“Airservices has gutted the Melbourne training academy to save costs and doesn’t have the instructors or capacity to train anything like this number – currently recruits are filling time by teaching themselves on simulators without supervision (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=544&Itemid=51) from instructors,” he said.
“At the same time, Australian air traffic controllers and their families continue to head overseas for better pay and conditions. In the past two weeks alone a further four ATCs have accepted these offers, and more are anticipated.”
The current staffing situation – and the resulting periods of unsupervised air space, most recently yesterday in the Canberra area (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=10&id=42&Itemid=223) – are the direct consequences of Airservices failure to plan for the future, while indulging in corporate restructures that benefit their profit at the expense of service.
“Air traffic controllers will continue to work as rostered, except when legally barred from duty due to illness or certain prescription medication, and will continue to cover reasonable overtime – but they cannot fix a system that’s been stretched until it’s almost beyond repair.”


http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/templates/jt_simplicity_blue/images/arrow.png Airservices CEO Greg Russell’s email to staff, July 30 2008 (http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20080801-AirServices-Australia-memo-.html) (at www.crikey.com.au): (http://www.crikey.com.au):)


“At this stage, we anticipate this will achieve a full staffing complement by the end of August, with new controllers flowing into the system over the coming months. This is just the beginning of our increased recruitment activities with a further 80-100 ATCs to be recruited per year over the next five years. This is a central plank in the reform of the ATC core business.”

Media enquiries should be directed to:
Peter McGuane, Executive Secretary 0412 538 336
Andrew Taylor 0411 156 797

[Jerricho]

So what's happened?

TFN build a cloning machine?

[undervaluedATC]

Not as far as we know.

But we understand that we will shortly be issued with new Gregorrian calanders, which are printed as follows

August 31
August 32
August 33
August 34
August 35 etc


in fact, if the number was'nt changing, you'd think there had been a printing error. :rolleyes:

[Sunfish]

I haven't been following this thread very much but let me make a guess about one thing....

In all the restructuring that has been going on, are there now more managers or less managers???

I think I already know the answer:{

[Awol57]

I think there are now 107 ALM's. Dunno how many before that but I would say, 27 Tower managers, plus one manager per group. So maybe 50 all up? If that.

[BeGoneTFN]

And so the exodus begins

[Showa Cho]

I'd say it began about 6 months ago....the tempo is just increasing.

Two from YMML TWR today, and four from Brisbane Centre.

Around 24 from Melbourne Centre in the last 9 months or so.

There's no problem at all. Move along, move along.....nothing to see here!

Get those Tonka Trucks/Four leaf clovers/lederhausen ready......

[tobzalp]

I really enjoyed my time in Germany last week.:cool:

Really.

:ok:

[Plazbot]

Fully? So did I. We must have nearly run into one another.

[west atc]

10 shifts to go until I'll be drinking with the Leprechauns. I can't see TFN missing me, since the staffing problems are fixed. :ugh:

[BeGoneTFN]

minus 17 plus 2 from ML TWR, plus 4 from BN ENR = minus 11

YOU Beauty! we'll be over staffed before TFN knows it????????


By the way JH, what planet are you on?

Your Avnet forum posts would indicate that you have entered that alternative reality occupied for so long by your master.

What's with all that Gen Y rubbish, those kids are way to intelligent to be recruited into an organisation intent on self destruction! Why bother endevouring to make it a great place to work if you want rid of everyone after 5 years employment.

Its truly mind blowing stuff, ASA should indeed look to diversify into say, banking............ my mistake, we've already headed in that direction.

Surely its time for another Star Trek type episode, the amount of material now available is to overwhelming to ignore.

In anticipation.

BgTFN you are truly a :mad: wit and must go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[trueline]

Why bother endevouring to make it a great place to work if you want rid of everyone after 5 years employment.

It's simply Jason and TFN's way of avoiding blame for the separation rate. They'll claim it's not their fault, it's Gen Y's! Only self-centred Gen Ys with itchy feet would want to leave such a 'great place to work'!

[DoctorBoner]

Fully? So did I. We must have nearly run into one another.

Sounds like we all were lined up according to Country. I know of a 4th who went two weeks ago. Jason H and his LaLa land opinion of retention make me chuckle.

[Robbovic]

TFN and his minions are beginning to remind me of the last days of the little Austrian corporal.
Insiders to Bullsh#t Castle tell me that he hunkers down each day in his bunker (the Crisis Management bubble in the NOC) going over his view of how he and his drooling cronies are "running" air traffic management in this country.
He even has his own Propoganda Minister ("Vot are you sayink you stupid boy? Zey are not leafink, Ve are keepink zem all!!! and if zey do leaf, ve vill haf zem SHOT!!! Ve vill RULE ZE VORLD!!!")

The other parallel, of course, is that his soldiers in the field have been telling him for a long time that the plan will and cannot work, but he and his General Staff keep sticking to it.

TFN uber alles!!!

[LeavingASA]

Rumour is there are another 3 in Melbourne that have offers for Germany!!

I am now convinced that everything is progressing according to Management plans...

Let the troublemakers leave/retire.
Change the recruitment/training process to ensure everyone passes.
Create generic "plug and play" ATC endorsements that are achieved with minimal on the job training.
Create an airspace model that will reduce the amount of staff required ie: Upper Airspace run on 2 consoles - 1 in Melbourne and 1 in Brisbane (I've heard that people in Canberra actually believe this is achievable!!)
Continue to apply the "big stick" to those that stay by "managing" those that dare to call in sick and effectively make overtime obligatory

Problem solved!

Of course anyone at the front line knows this will not/cannot be achieved, but we seem to be dealing with people who no longer have a firm grasp on reality...

[makespeed250kt]

Surely aircraft operators must be fed-up with all the TIBA/delays due staff shortages. Yet, things remain eerily quiet.

I'd like to see a dollar figure for all these delays. 5mins here, another 5mins there, day in, day out.

This mob at AsA bash us over the head about productivity.

I can only imagine what their management decisions are doing to national transport productivity as a whole.

Anyway, what would I know?:ugh:

[clear to land]

Thought you chap/chapette ATCO's would be interested to know that ASA has informed our bosses (who have just communicated this to us), that the ASA Collective Agreement will be signed on 21 Dec and no more TIBA. (Wonder what they will call it next??????? :ugh:) Cheers from the sandpit.!!!:)

[max1]

I hear that the new College boss has produced a breathtaking display of 'tough love' at the College. The new course has seen ASAs 'making it a great place to work' mantra in action.
No use cotton wooling them from what they can expect from their new employer.

[boree3]

I guess the atmosphere theives in CBR beleive all the current TIBA is due to the lack of progress in the EBA. Yeah right! We don`t have the fricken staff and it`s not gettin any better i can tell youse. Just wait till we really get angry and turn the phone orf. Bulls#!t castle would have us believe that the trainees are coming thick and fast. Trouble is they start at the bottom and assuming they pass it`s takes a couple of years in the field to replace the experienced guys & gals that have gone os. No amount of spin will hide the fact the sh!t we`re in and it won`t magically get better if & when the EBA is finalised. Wonder how that retention bonus is coming along?

Todays date? August the 43rd eh. Greg?

[undervaluedATC]

Bulls#!t castle would have us believe that the trainees are coming thick and fast.

the next new trainee for our group does not arrive until November (assuming sucessful acamedy experience) Don't even have a date for the next one after that....

Surely aircraft operators must be fed-up with all the TIBA/delays due staff shortages. Yet, things remain eerily quiet

I also am defeaned by the silence of their protests. What on earth has TFN promised them to keep them quiet?

Thought you chap/chapette ATCO's would be interested to know that ASA has informed our bosses (who have just communicated this to us), that the ASA Collective Agreement will be signed on 21 Dec and no more TIBA. (Wonder what they will call it next??????? :ugh:)

Since AsA and Civilair disagree about removing principles of rostering, introducing obligatory overtime, and slashing sick leave, I extremely doubt that an agreement will be signed by 21st December.

As for the academy incident, I believe the consensus was that the term "fascists" summed up the person(s) involved succintly.

[hoboe]

Thought you chap/chapette ATCO's would be interested to know that ASA has informed our bosses (who have just communicated this to us), that the ASA Collective Agreement will be signed on 21 Dec and no more TIBA.


ASA didn't happen to mention what year by any chance?:rolleyes:

[tobzalp]

I onky heard about this college incident third hand but to share what I heard....

Trainees started. Trainees have no instructors. Trainees told they have a 6 month delay of sitting around doing support roles to the other courses. Trainees say 'Homey don't think so'. College manager calls a meeting and shows up with a Security guard and tells all assembled that if they don't like it(delay), the security guard will escort them from the building and they no longer have a 'job'.

What a friggn awesome employer.:mad: I could not believe this when I heard it.


(This is a third hand rumour)

[cbradio]

one of the new trainees was posting on Pprune before he started his course - suggested some current controllers were over-reacting if I recall!

He might like to tell us the story.

[yarrayarra]

I'm so saddened and ashamed to be part of this organisation. Having been part of a wonderful group of professionals for over 30 years, I'm afraid the loyalty and professionalism engendered by past senior staff has been totally eroded by the callous mismanagement, disdain and shortsitedness of the present. I'm truly saddened that the young controllers who are following will not have the comaradery, fun and sense of pride in their profession that I've had amongst a great bunch of dedicated professionals. Rex- I've finally taken your advice- "Mate- don't take it so seriously. It's only a game" When's the next pay cheque?

[max1]

Tobzalp,
Further to what I have heard from sources quite close to the action.

What our ' great place to work' managers fail to realise that the people they have employed as trainees have lives.

Those moving from interstate would have signed rental agreements based on the length, they were told, the course would run.

From discussions with people who have been through the College lately, some left their other halves interstate as they had committments that didn't justify uprooting families, leaving jobs, etc for the period of time they were told they would be at the College.

Thumb Twiddling Course 27, were not told in advance that they would be extended due to lack of instructors. ASA are desperate to say they are putting trainess through the College. As a face saving exercise they decided to start the course knowing full well that they couldn't accomodate them. But if asked, could say we have started a course. Pure spin.

These poor people have been learning to be blip drivers (simulator support officers) on a trainees wage. They have now been told that they will be further extended. One RD , head spin doctor from Canberra, came to give them a Corporate indoctrination. Some quite pointed questions were asked from people who were hired because of their assertive personalities, among other things.

The new head of the College, recruited from the NAB with no aviation background, decided to play the heavy and arrived with security guard in tow.
She told these people, who have had to re-arrange leases, placate loved ones, left other jobs, etc, etc, that if they didn't like it, that they could be escorted right now off the premises by the security guard.

I am sure pushing people to make this decision in a matter of seconds was the reason she decided to play this game of brinkmanship. It is called bullying. I am also led to believe that some trainees made notes of the meeting, but on returning from lunch these had been gathered up and taken.

I suppose it saves time later, if you get your employees lied to and bullied early, that way nothing comes a surprise later on.

[Howabout]

This is totally bizzare. Are you telling me that trainees are being treated that way? I have a feeling that I know who RD may be - lot's of time controling - a dead set expert.

Now, all you dead-heads need to to do is make the "service delivery environment" work. Sheesh, I went to a RAPAC and listened to the spiel about SDE. I could not believe the rubbish I heard out of a young suit - forget his name - as to how this was to revolutionise ATC.

I seriously wonder how these guys manage to hold onto their jobs.

[BeGoneTFN]

I'm dying to know who RD is?

If thats the way the recruits are being treated I take back what I stated previously, ASA wont have any problems at all achieving the turnover they desire!

We as an organisation and service provider are seriously in the ****!

Won't someone please help, I'm looking for some political or media assistance here! anyone, anyone please.

The silence is deafening......... watch them all run if the unthinkable should occur. 200 TIBA in a month!

To all those interested this is the only avenue for concerned ASA staff, we can't convey our thoughts and fears in any other way, please heed our calls. :sad:

BgTFN

[Albizia]

BGTFN

The king of spin, he who speaks to the media about those nasty ATC's, kind of rhymes with fudley.

Corporate governance, I wonder if anyone in AWB has actually done it. I would have to guess no.

[missy]

What seems to be missing in this whole debate is the years of experience walking out the door. It seems that OS ANSPs are prepared to pay for this experience.

ASA will spin numbers, that is, controller numbers but it takes years to train from first in the door at the college to being a FPC controller able to work all shifts and all positions.

I understand that the numbers of ATC resigning will continue. The number of FPCs is diminishing by week by week, certainly much faster than they can be replaced. The sand pit continues to lure Tower controllers.

What was once a great profession has been completely done-over by bureaucrats who little or no understanding of what it is like to be an air traffic controller. I fail to see how this whole mess can be sorted.

[max1]

I couldn't believe it myself when I first heard, so did some digging.

The people now in charge of ASA have no empathy for other human beings.
These trainees will be six months behind where they were told they would be financially. Makes a difference at the end of your career.

They are not being forced to be on $35k for an extra six months, but really being denied six months pay on whatever they are on at the end of their career.

The bureaucrats running this place simply don't give a stuff about these people.

[No Further Requirements]

YarraYarra, you know who I am and I know who you are, and it is a great pity that a person with your experience, skill and respect is so burned by AsA. Make the most of these last years and don't let the ba@#ards get you down! Make sure you pop in on the way to Euorpe.

Cheers,

NFR.

[BeGoneTFN]

Thanks Albizia,

How could I miss that, he's another hack goodness its hard to keep up with them all.

I wonder if that clown will be doing a victory tour with TFN and JH when the place goes under, I'm betting they'll remain bunkered down in the NOC shop. No doubt brain storming more excuses!

Think I would have to go Non-op if any of them bothered to turned up at my work place! It would be an interesting reception given the way he as the CEO has displayed a compelete lack of respect for and blatantly defamed his entire ATC workforce.

Mutual respect = a somewhat better place to work

TFN you have failed, every part of ASA struggles on a daily basis to simply operate.

I believe a significant event occured when all staff development training was cancelled about two years ago, that was the writing on the wall your attitude towards staff then became evident.

You want the factory sterile environment to drive people out, to drive them nuts (just how long can someone stand doing the one sector). Its all about cost and your personal remuneration, you don't care about our organsiation you killed Hazo's now you crap on about a government mandate regarding pay rises and bleet about our sick leave entitlements (have you ever worked at night you gnat!) to further erode our conditions.

I personally hope that before you extricate your head from your a*se, you and your managers get a rocket from QF, VOZ and the government because airports are closing, yes closing due to your arrogance and incompetence that led to a large proportion of your workforce to seek alternative employment.

Geez, I need a drink now, you sh*t me so much! :mad:



BgTFN

[Robbovic]

The Australian cricket squad to tour India lacking a good spinner - they could do a lot worse that the person who thought up the lastest TLI about the composition of TIBA NOTAMs.

How about this for a fizzing legbreak?

The wording is not to include the phrase "...due staff shortage" if there were staff available for callout, but who declined the invitation to attend, ie in the case of a short notice absence.
The correct phrase is mandated as "...due staff unavailability".
The first phrase may only be used if there was originally a vacant spot on the roster that was not able to be filled.

Warney would have been proud of that jaffa!!

[ozbiggles]

Its good to see your the ASA PR section is responsible for NOTAMs!!!!
No doubt they had a large meeting and then a lunch after that consultation was done.
One point I would disagree with however is I'm sure your boss does work late at night....
1. Just not very often.
2. Never all night
3. Get paids a CEO salary to do it!
Maybe that American bunch who do the Commonwealth Bank Adds also advise ASA HQ.....maybe they actually run ASA!

[Howabout]

More like a fizzing googly!

Of course, "staff unavailability" suggests that there's sufficient staff, they're just "'unavailable". Ergo, it's all your fault.

Neither Blackadder, nor the fox appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University, ever came up with such a cunning plan.

[Adamastor]

If they put half the effort into fixing the problems that they do into playing their highly suspect blame game, the poor old customers might be getting to their destinations on time!!! :{

[max1]

Adamastor,
Unfortunately for the travelling public, that is not in their psyche.

The more this debacle unfolds, it seems that the bureaucrats seem to revel in the 'game' they are playing i.e. to bully their staff, and convince the public, through the media, that none of it is their individual responsibilty. That they are working damn hard to fix the problem and it will be sorted on X date.

The reality is that they have decided on a course of action and even if the evidence shows this course of action to be wrong, the egos won't allow it to be changed.

May we live in interesting times.

[Funk]

For those young and not so young folk desperate to become ATCO's, consider the RAAF. You won't be making the O/T as you would in AsA but at least you will have a 12 month course that at the end will pay just short of $60K + cheap housing + free medical insurance + good chance of getting leave and nearly every Xmas day off (unless you're unfortunate enough to be posted to TL or DN) + 18% super.

I am seriously considering this as an option when my soujorn in the ME finishes, the thought of going back to AsA raises the bile. I can see myself in semi retirement at Nowra, Oakey or Amberley tower.
Yes there are downsides to the military such as the posting roulette etc , but when it all goes to **** you can alway succumb to the dark side AsA or take the cash bonus :}

Air Traffic Control Officer | Defence Jobs (http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/airforce/jobs/AirTrafficControlOfficer/)

[Funk]

BTW a bloke I work with here in the pit said that this is the future of ATC, younger ex-military FAA ATCO's are going back to the military for better wages and conditions.

[ER_BN]

Max 1,

Spot on post.

Is it true that Corporate Affairs under the Dick the Dud now has over 50 staff??

That is one lot of Spin......

Gone are the days when I think we used to have one PR spokesman and you would only realize that when someone unfortunately crashed.

Sign of the times, sadly to say.

Never would they tell you how to write a NOTAM!

[wolf_wolf]

A lot of justified negative resentment going on here... But I believe we live in a cause and effect universe, so why then is ASA going in this bizarre staff-destroying direction ?

It is not enough for me to just constantly attack TFN and management, without taking a more "big picture" look at the ATC business and trying to actually understand why tf they make (or don't make) the decisions they do...

Where is ATC going ? Tower, approach, enroute ? A global user pays service. Automation ? Larger trans-national sectors ? De-skilling or re-skilling ? Therefore why invest in more staff, when the plan might be to just "re-deploy" existing assets more efficiently once the technology becomes viable ?

Maybe ASA is being driven on purpose to such a low-resourced (read cheap) and high-liability (read TIBA) organisation, that the government/board of directors are just getting ready to sell it (or parts of it) off to... the most convenient buyer ? FAA? Airways? Airline consortiums ? Given a Qantas/Singapore merger for sure it would be an affordable consideration.

I heard recently that Qantas (and others) might have given ASA a vote of no confidence in their service delivery (due TIBA), and so are demanding a more reliable provider to at least do, say the Ocean airspace. In response to this massive potential loss of revenue, ASA has looked at the books and perhaps realised that TAAATS cannot provide a competitive product anymore.

Without SDE, without any realised efficiencies, the ASA product has lost it's edge in the market. Apparently Version 13 has been axed as the FPCP (and ongoing modifications) does not justify the return on investment anymore. Better yet - TAAATS might just have to be scrapped in toto, and either a more competitive off-the-shelf product implemented ASAP just to keep the bucks rolling in...

Ofcourse the government will not want to let that revenue stream go, but due to the total corporatisation of it's assets, may not have a choice if the users demand a more sustainable long-term service. The US have just committed billions to upgrade their systems, and so perhaps a bit of airspace re-shuffling would be on the cards...

As for staff going overseas - well perhaps that is all just a part of the grand plan anyway !!

There's (got to be) a reason for everything :ok:

[tobzalp]

re: staff

It has been obvious for years. It took me about 2 years to get cynical and then 10 years to get fully Jack of the place. Reading JH's comments, he sees that ATC is a 5 year gig. Those of us on top increment are just costing them money and holding seats that those they can pay 50% to do similar functions are slated for.

Mt tip is that in 20 years, ATC will be staffed at maybe 30% of what it is now and all routes will be speed and level specific with all the calculations done by a computer for sector movements and separation talking directly via CPDLC to the Avionics. In High level Enroute land, it is pretty much this way already.

[ferris]

I think you are giving them too much credit, wolf wolf- I really do. For the scenario you describe, there would need to be a group of people who are "in" on it at the top, and have a well thought-out plan.
What is happening just looks like plain vanilla amateur attempts at trying to continually cut costs beyond what the system can bear. Short-term management.

[Lodown]

Absolutely ferris! The Liberal guvmint implemented a "cost-saving at any cost and a profit above all" policy. That was the mandate and the board has been following the guide with great gusto and enthusiasm. The managers were in such a short-sighted, goal/bonus oriented, beligerent rush to slash costs and generate huge profits that not a lot of thought went into a sustainable future. (Afterall, the guvmint's not going to let a department fail is it? Sound similar to the thinking in several US mortgage companies?) In addition, many of the managers in non-ATC Ops areas had little or no history with AsA or within aviation. They couldn't recognise a clearance from a NOTAM. Even the ATC Ops managers were ultra-enthusiastic youngsters promoted when the experienced incumbents were pushed aside ostensibly for being dead wood, but in reality for waving too many red flags. The senior managers were hired on resumes that indicated they would do as they were told, could take a balance sheet at face value and their conscience would take a backseat to their ambitions and the directions of the Minister and the board. If a process, task or role didn't appear to make sense, who cares if it affected a more critical task in another area? It was easier to slash the process than research and justify its retention.

Wolf_wolf, AsA is paying the price for overzealous cost cutting...pure and simple It's like a short-sighted farmer who has traded maximum profits from his sheep in the short term without investing back in the land for the long term. Here we are a few years down the track and the farmer's fields are overgrazed, weeds are over-running the nutritious grasses, erosion is rampant, the quality of his product is declining sharply and the few able and wise sheep left have lost patience and recognize that circumstances aren't about to turn around soon and are slipping through holes in the dilapidated, under-maintained fences for greener pastures beyond. The realisation is starting to sink in with everyone but the farmer that a large infrastructure investment is going to be required.

So what does the AsA farmer do as he witnesses his income decline, his productivity reduce and his costs climb despite his best efforts?

Gives himself a pat on the back, praises his foremen and BLAMES THE SHEEP!!!! BRILLIANT!!! Whoo Hoo!!! Management at its finest.

The entire board should be sacked for incompetency. No doubt, the bonus in the termination clause (if there is a termination clause) will be worth waiting for. (Perhaps they could get a new job with Rex?)


On a slightly separate thread, if you're intending to run a government department like a business, then be prepared to let it fail like a business! Perhaps, instead of the philosophy for the last 15 years of deliberately knee-capping unions, now that business leaders have trouble keeping good workers, it might be time to promote unions again as a way to retain a strong workforce.

[Quokka]

Oh so true... and, at the next CANSO meeting, it'll be smiles all around when the AsA reps walk through the door.

[Lodown]

AirNoServices: the AsA management did have a goal in mind to be an international service provider and to look for revenue streams overseas. They just didn't figure that each of the controllers would take to the challenge with such personal and unsharing conscientiousness.

[Chief galah]

Wolf-wolf, I reckon this is all crap, and your post is full of of business management course speak.

The console ATC provides a separation service, a flight information service and a SAR service.

These services are tied to the regulations.

When I'm at the console, I'm not thinking about "the business" -
I'm constantly thinking about guarding my backside and doing the best I can
at any given time, under the regulations.

For a lot of the time this requires the exercise of good judgement, something
that cannot be covered in manuals.

The sooner we divorce the operational from the business the better.

We can then exclude at least one level of management, which has got to be a good thing.

CG

[max1]

If the FPCP goes at the window, going with it will be big savings to the airlines.

The Flight Plan Conflict Probe (FPCP) has been designed to unlock the User Preferred Routing (UPR) efficiencies for the Upper Air Space (UAS) sectors. It was the jewel in the crown. Above FL280 in huge tracts of Oceanic and Continental airspace, it would have allowed the airlines Free Flight to plan the most efficient routing.

I haven't heard that it is dead, PC (an ASA manager) promised the airlines at Waypoint 2008 that it would be implemented by the middle of next year.

The mantra spouted by the bureaucrats at the conference was that ASA were going to stop over-promising and under-delivering.

Further to lodowns' post, its the old snout in the trough syndrome, ASA is a huge money spinner, @$677 million last year at $106 million profit. This year will be even bigger. Charges fronm ATC and RFF generated around 90% of the income.

http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/media/corporatepubs/docs/annualreports/areport0607.pdf

In this report we see, in Canberra, 13 executives, 140 Senior managers, and 191 clerical staff, 88 technical professional. With adds on there are 497 at the end of 2006/7 roaming the halls of BS castle.

From the report we have in total 283 senior managers and 13 executives.
In Caroline Flemings speech to Waypoint 2008 , after the creation of the ATS Line Managers (ALMs), they have delivered the Leaders Leading course to 470 managers.
Controller numbers are stated at 983, but this counts the new level of managers as ATC. Controllers talking to aircraft are actually somewhere around the 750-760 mark. The report quotes 553 Firies, though I wouldn't know how many of them are available to pull you out of a burning aircraft.23 Flight Data Co-ordinators(FDCs), and 74 Flight Information Service Officers (Flightwatch).

Each year we have seen a shrinking of controller numbers, this means we must have fantastic managers, less people dealing with more aircraft. Don't let those managers go, they can do this forever. No they can't. But lets encourage and reward them for this.

Now the chooks are coming home to roost lets blame it on the people we have been shafting for years.

[blind freddy]

When it comes to Asa, if you are trying to decide whether this is a super smart,secret plan or a complete balls-up.
Always go for the balls-up.
Always.:}

Airservices management.:ugh:
Oxymoron.

[Hempy]

Funky L, with the way the AU$ is dropping, probably worth postponing the military a bit longer ;)

[Aus ATC]

From wolf wolf
Apparently Version 13 has been axed as the FPCP (and ongoing modifications) does not justify the return on investment anymore. Better yet - TAAATS might just have to be scrapped in toto, and either a more competitive off-the-shelf product implemented ASAP just to keep the bucks rolling in...

Some happy snaps of TFN and Thales executives signing papers were doing the rounds last week. Nothing official to the troops yet, but the word is we will be getting the Thales system currently being designed for Singapore. Version 13 is mostly in the bin. FPCF - my guess it will still be deployed in the current TAAATS system (2 or 3 upgrades still to come till it is fit for purpose). Talk is of a single ATS centre for Australia (vs BN and ML) but where?

[Hempy]

but where?
Nocshop :suspect:

[yarrayarra]

This article just about sums up the feeling of the troop in ASA. A personal copy should have given to each member of the Board at the "luncheon" at Melbourne today. Was asked why I didn't attend- just wouldn't have been able to hold my mouth shut. Pay in the bank tomorrow- you beauty!!

Aviator - Australia's Aviation Industry Magazine (http://www.aviatormag.com.au/stories/Sept08_ATC.html)

[man on the ground]

FPCF - my guess it will still be deployed in the current TAAATS system (2 or 3 upgrades still to come till it is fit for purpose)

It's already in the current software!!! It is an imbedded part of the software; just not "enabled" due to the bugs still to sorted out (and the little matter of teaching everyone how to use it). Correct about the multiple upgrades to get it working though:E

[flightfocus]

On the subject of mgt bonuses for ineptness.

Have a mate working on the west coast. He reckons that they heard from an ex Air Shambles BS castle guy that TFN is on a fab wicket.

Story is that his 1st contract had him on just over $1,000,000 pa PLUS a $600,000 bonus for EVERY $40,000,000 saved. :eek:

Note the wording, I was told, is important. Not profit generated, or new business secured. No it is saved. Easiest way = cut back on everything including staff, training, investment in equipment etc etc.

Now TFN wants to be our best friend and is fixing the mess those "renegade" controllers have made....???? Don't think so. By the way for comparison the absolute top increment for an active controller is around $135,000 - and this is after about 15 years of service.

So what we have is a CEO who is incredibly motivated to go in with the knife on a slash and burn campaign. It explains why we had Managers wining Oz Day awards for contributing to the "cost cutting" mantra. And the current state of the ..... um Gulag, I mean Academy.

How can we possibly expect a CEO with such financial incentives to make decisions in the best interest of the company OR the customer.

For all you media types looking for a story, this is it. How can this be allowed. Now we have to put up with the spin that the naughty controllers are not playing his game.

Sorry TFN, tell someone who cares. Vote of no confidence from me. :=

[max1]

The sociopaths running things are slowly understanding the predicament they have got themselves, and by default the travelling public and controllers, into.

Their answer is not to admit fault, but try to force draconian conditions onto the controllers. Get rid of any rostering constraints (bugger any concern for the health of their staff) and make it an obligation to do overtime.

What they don't understand is that people are leaving, and will leave.
When will these clowns wake-up.
I wonder if Big Tony will use the " I didn't know " excuses of his predecessors in government. Because Mr Albanese you are being told, or attempted to being told through your underlings.

[indamiddle]

august 48th today?

[Philthy]

Check this out - it's a pisser.

YouTube - We still have TIBA at home... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0z2EQR6EWM)

[tobzalp]

I would live to give a huge 'ahahaha' etc to that but you know what? This whole thing is just beyond a joke now.:ugh: TIBA tonight from 1345-1945 north of Brisbane to Rocky.

[celeritas]

Philthy;
That was awesome!! Couldn't keep the grin off my face:ok::ok:

[undervaluedATC]

TIBA tonight from 1345-1945 north of Brisbane to Rocky.

yeah, and even though so far AsA has been unable to implement obligatory overtime, all controllers for that group were interviewed by their ALM to ascertain their reason for non-availability

for christsakes, the airlines overstaff to cover unexpected absences, but not AsA - they 'promote' 107 controllers away from moving traffic, and then try make the remaining ATC's work even harder and never have two days off in a row.

and now AsA put out TIBA notams citing "staff non-avialability" - I notice they don't NOTAM when airspace was kept open by someone agreeing further fatigue themselves on yet another overtime shift.

[Baileys]

Can you say..."I wasn't available because it was my day off"?

What would be the repercussions if you did?

[undervaluedATC]

Can you say..."I wasn't available because it was my day off"?

What would be the repercussions if you did?

Well, back in August, AsA issued an overtime wishlist - a proposed "memorandum of understanding" that went as follows:

1.There is an obligation on air traffic controllers to perform reasonable overtime where operational requirements make it necessary.

2.That obligation entails an expectation that ATCs will be contactable by telephone and if calls are missed, to call back promptly after the call from Airservices has been received. An ATC should only remain uncontactable or unable to respond promptly where there are special reasons for this being so.
3.Subject to paragraphs 4 and 5, ATCs will agree to work an additional shift or hours when requested to do so.
4.If the ATC has already worked an average of one or more additional hours shift per fortnight in the 30 day period preceding the request or no less than an average of 7 additional hours per fortnight in the 30 day period preceding the request, they shall be entitled to decline the request.
5.Further, Airservices will not require an ATC to perform an additional shift or additional hours if Airservices is satisfied that there are substantial and compelling reasons which make it reasonable for them not to be required to do so.
6.If an ATC does not agree to a request to work an additional shift and neither of the conditions mentioned in paragraphs 4 or 5 exist, Airservices shall be entitled to take appropriate disciplinary action in relation to their conduct.

and they were surprised that we did not agree to handing them ourselves on a platter....


so in September AsA "softened" the overtime proposal to:



4.3 ADDITIONAL HOURS

4.3.1 Under this agreement each employee has an obligation to work a reasonable amount of additional hours if Airservices considers that the working of additional hours is necessary to meet operational and/or business requirements.

4.3.2 In relation to requests to work additional hours generally, your manager will give consideration to the impact of additional hours and endeavour to accommodate your preferences. In relation to particular requests to work additional hours it will be relevant to take into account the following factors:
(a) any risk to your health and safety from working the additional hours requested;
(b) your personal circumstances, including compelling family responsibilities;
(c) the needs of the workplace;
(d) the nature of your role and your level of responsibility;
(e) the notice given by Airservices of the requirement to work the additional hours and any notice you have given about your availability or unavailability to perform additional hours work in a particular period;
(f) if you express an unwillingness to perform the additional hours requested, the reason(s) you give for that unwillingness; and
(g) any other relevant matter, including the amount of additional hours you have performed during the operation of this agreement.


Notice this is a proposed change to our existing agreement (in spite of the fact that it contains the standard clause of "no extra claims for the life of the agreement") Much to AsA regret, nowhere is it written in our current EBA that there is an "obligation" to work overtime.

Unfortunately, this place has been so reliant on overtime for the last 3-4 years, when they promoted 107 controllers away from the console - WITH NO REPLACEMENTS - the wheels fell off.

So now AsA is trying to argue that we HAVE to do overtime, just because we're an employee. :mad:

Does anyone besides desperate managers think it is a good idea for ATC'ers to be even more fatigued???

[Baileys]

So is the 'new proposal' law yet?

If so how did it get to be so without agreement?

If not why is anyone even answering these questions about non-availability?

[Nautilus Blue]

If not why is anyone even answering these questions about non-availability?

Unless you are on the top pay increment you have to grovel to your manager to go up each year. As I understand it advancement is entirley at the whim of said manger. I think those of us on the top would tell them where to go, politely of course.

[tobzalp]

Don't have to make excuses if you don't answer the phone.

[undervaluedATC]

Don't have to make excuses if you don't answer the phone

but then you'd get interviewed about why you don't answer the phone :rolleyes:

Honestly, I think Asa would lock us in the building if they could.:sad:

[west atc]

How does none of your f***ing business sound?

[tobzalp]

Am becoming increasingly glad that my home phone number is not anywhere to be found in ASA databases.

You think? They opened the phone book as my number is not listed and called all of the same surname until they found a relative that would give them my number. I wish this was made up but it is unfortunately true. Happened 2 weeks ago. NOT cool.:*

[C-change]

Doesn't this sort of searching for people on days off constitute harassment ?

When they do interview you, make sure your at the back of the line.

I'm pretty sure they won't buy enough rounds to shoot you individually, not when they realise the cost benefits of mulitple shootings with a single round.

[BeGoneTFN]

Now that's desperation!

Did they offer to send TFN's own limo around to deliver you to your place of incarceration, err employment?

great job, pity about the :mad: house management!

[LapSap]

They opened the phone book as my number is not listed and called all of the same surname until they found a relative that would give them my number.

Guessing there aren't too many "Tobzalp"s in the White Pages. ;)

Hope you gave the relo who passed on your number a bollocking.

Keep reminding me why I left the joint years ago guys.

[max1]

I'm not holding my breath, but am wondering how long these bureaucrats will take to work out that the 'stick' isn't working and maybe its time to hold out the olive branch and try the 'carrot'.

TFN admitted that they hadn't done any workforce planning, and then went on to streamline (gut) the College, not knowing whether it was prudent to do so or not. The controllers and our Association warned him three years ago that staffing was dire and would become critical in the near future. From other posts on his incentive scheme it is not hard to work out for what personal gain this was done.

His sychophants have been telling him that technology will replace the controllers, if the history of ASA tells us anything then it is that the over-promise and under-deliver culture is ingrained in the Alan Woods Building.

When things are not delivered it is always someone elses fault. For the industry types, the promise of User Preferred Routing will NOT be available as promised by the middle of 2009, it was achievable but was never going to be delivered as they won't put the money towards the software. $106 million profit from the industry but you wont be getting UPRs or much in the way of RNPs. The manager who promised it at Waypoint 2008 is ' all tip and no iceberg'. Controllers on the ground have a far better idea of what can actually be achieved as we can see where the money is going, and where the staff are to implement projects.
SDE due Nov 2007, Flight Plan Conflict Probe pick any date in the last 4 years, Full staffing pick any date in the last 6 years. All of these are anyones guess.

Due to the creation of the ALM AWA positions and corresponding reduction in real numbers of controllers, there are no staff to assist with these projects as it is left to the remaining active controllers to struggle to keep airspace open.
A large proportion of sector simulator exercises at the centres, to train the new recruits, are out of date and not usable due to lack of staff to update them. The place is slowly and inexorably grinding to a halt.
One AWA ALM, who still has the moral compass intact, wrote on an Aviation site of what is wrong. We will soon see him back at the console. Lipservices are still shooting the messenger and ignoring the message.

To try and fix this ASA are attempting to take away our Principles of Rostering ( we have no CAR 48 Duty times protection), sick leave, and obligate us to attend on our days off.

The numbers of new hires PROMISED is NOT ACHIEVABLE, significant numbers of controllers are working, or have worked, out their exit strategies.
Those approaching retirement are bringing their retirement dates forward, and still these bureaucrats are saying there is no crisis.

Wait for the excuses and blame game to start as things get worse not better, we already have instituitionalised overtime and they want more. Refresher training is computer based Q&A, no simulator, there is no staff development
As the place crumbles even more, the blame will be put on the controllers, as the 50 odd people in the corporate spin doctors bunker continue to manipulate the media to protect a short-sighted, and incentive driven, management? team that have failed to plan and therefore plan to fail.

Now , more than anytime in the last twenty five plus years I have been around, ASA need to get controllers onside. Its not happening. In the past if we were rung up to come in our days off and had something on, the answer would be " I have a kids, wifes birthday, have family outing planned etc, etc, but if you can't find anyone else ring me back ". This would be told to the next person and eventually find someone to fill the hole or you would cancel your activity to attend. We got paid for this but rarely thanked. That style of supervisor is almost extinct these days, or that disillusioned with ASA that they have just gone back to controlling and left managing to the new breed. The new breed who have left us with this a staffing crisis, lack of training capability, and a disillusioned and disengaged workforce. But we do have a lot more managers.

Anyway, got to polish up the CV now.

[westausatc]

west atc,

easy to say that when you are headed for much greener pastures very soon! :E not quite so easy when you need that same manager to sign off an increment advancement each year. :\

[Baileys]

So if you don't do overtime and have a legitimate reason such as.....my wife and kids need me to be a father/husband because that is a more important aspect of life that working.....then you won't get an annual increment advancement?

Is that what you are saying????

Is this true??

[west atc]

west atc,

easy to say that when you are headed for much greener pastures very soon! not quite so easy when you need that same manager to sign off an increment advancement each year.

Four shifts to go to be sure to be sure! :D

http://www.vateir.com/Charts/EIDW/Aerodrome.pdf

[ER_BN]

max1,

Not you too!

Who am I going to talk to??

Yeah I know I will be left to switch the lights out.

[tobzalp]

Just checked the Notams and it appears that the routes in from Singas, Bangkok, Indonesia, Middle east etc etc etc are TIBA from 1 am till about 3:30. That is peak hour. This really has got to stop. Airservices MUST acknowledge that they have screwed the pooch and start enticing their staff to want to come to work at all times. When I first started, I would have been embarrassed to see a TIBA Notam. Now I just could not give a sh!t.

I actually work on that group but do not hold those ratings and I can assure you that it is not through any covert industrial action that this has occured. Tops has a wealth of guys falling over themselves wanting to work OTs. When Tops goes TIBA, it is due to nothing more than the rubber band breaking.

[bob55]

Hypothetically (for now), how competitive would it be for a certain military controller with joint user experience to get a job at Brisbane Tower? (Ie - I know it's fairly easy to make the switch, the question is how easy it is to go to tower and not en route, and to even select which tower).

[Here to Help]

I actually work on that group but do not hold those ratings and I can assure you ...

Even though it shouldn't happen, you will be counted as one of the controllers who did not make himself available and the email sent to the airlines by way of explanation will include you in it.

[westausatc]

baileys, not saying it is true and has happened. Just that we don't believe it won't happen as our trust in management is below zero. So why take the chance? Especially when us doing constant overtime is the only way the system will stay close to afloat for the next few years.

[willadvise]

Looks like they have sent the flex track around TOPS. I would hate to be on the West P doggo tonight!!



http://img183.imagevenue.com/loc154/th_88542_image_122_154lo.jpg (http://img183.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc154&image=88542_image_122_154lo.jpg)

[tobzalp]

Oh my.


Is it just me or is that Scherger Restricted Airspace back to front?:rolleyes: Geez they are useless.

[missy]

tobzalp said
They opened the phone book as my number is not listed and called all of the same surname until they found a relative that would give them my number. I wish this was made up but it is unfortunately true. Happened 2 weeks ago. NOT cool.

Now this is really stupid. Mind you not having a suitable contact detail listed with the employer is just as silly. If we could have an adult-adult relationship, trouble is both parties want to all the toys in the sand-pit (perhaps not the best analogy during a staffing crisis with staff going to the UAE).

At the end of the day it appears that ASA continue to treat staff with contempt, when will they ever learn...

[tobzalp]

Mind you not having a suitable contact detail listed with the employer is just as silly.

They have my mobile number.

[max1]

Come December21 (expiration of the EBA) ASA are going to be in even more trouble staffing wise. Controllers have been working rosters outside of Principles of Rostering (PORs) under Facilitative Arrangements (FAs).

These FAs have allowed ASA to cover rosters with less staff and controllers to work longer shifts to get more time off. Personally, I don't see the benefits. We have access to more days off, but longer term we are more fatigued. ASA (TFN) have become dependent on them in their drive for cost cutting, and it has masked the lack of workforce planning.

On December 21, these FAs expire. ASA have struggled to adequately staff with these FAs and have no idea how to fill the rosters without them. My concern is that ASA will allow the situation to develop where they will have to roster airspace closures with all the angst that will engender.

All the unfulfillable promises that the bureaucrats have promised the industry will now be blamed on the controllers. They will bundle up all the problems that mismanagement has caused, SDE, lack of workforce planning, ageing demographic, non delivery of RNPs, UPRs etc etc, and lay them at the feet of the controllers.
I am led to understand that TFN has some in principle agreement to take a new ATS system that Thales is building for the Singaporeans, and build a single 'super' centre somewhere? Canberra?2012?

The result being that the turmoil that will envelope Australia come Dec21 will be blamed not on the lack of long-term planning, and short term bonus driven management but on the controllers who have been carrying the system for years.

TFN and co. will then be able to leap into the fray and declare that, yet again, "That we have a plan".This to appease the minister and industry, and it is , yet again, someone elses (controllers)fault.

This is the type of spin and politicking that TFN and co. get paid the big bucks to pull. The provision of a properly resourced Air Navigation Service Provider with long term planning should be somewhere on the list. Unfortunately it seems to be behind bonuses and personal corporate survival.

Time will tell.

[BeGoneTFN]

It would be interesting to see who staffs a super centre in CB, those in the NOC shop perhaps.

No disrespect to those that live in CB, but I don't think so!

They don't have the staff to even implement the concept let alone ghost a third centre.

Great rumour though

[peuce]

Just brainstorming here, BUT ...

Who says Australia Centre has to be in Australia :ouch::hmm:

[Blockla]

Who says the supa centre will be in Canberra?

The NOC is not the front end it's ops central; the eventual plan is for it to have fingers on every pulse; but never 'talking' to pilots. There are no comms facilities available or planned. The displays they have a rudimentary at best and certainly not fit for moving tin; even the ones on order won't change that. Think Eurocontrol's central flow unit... Strategic planning hub, not tactical.

More interesting are the rumours of 'contracts' signed for new ATC systems that may accompany a single location; RAAF and TCUs all into a single unit; with growth potential for 'global/regional domination' (picture Dr Evil sucking little finger). I know you can do it hempy..?

[missy]

Blocka said
More interesting are the rumours of 'contracts' signed for new ATC systems

Signing a contract and paying a hefty deposit could explain why the ASA finanical report will indicate a dip in the profit.

But seriously, I don't think any Government Department, GBE, or whatever quasi-corporate entity ASA are disguised as at the moment (pending a name change) would be able to sign a contract for such a huge expense ($120m.) Or has the Tower Technology Project forged ahead in leaps and bounds and there is clear acknowledgement that the Towers are really the centre of the universe!!

[C-change]

I am led to understand that TFN has some in principle agreement to take a new ATS system that Thales is building for the Singaporeans, and build a single 'super' centre somewhere? Canberra?2012?


Who says Australia Centre has to be in Australia


Now before anyone rips my head off, look back to when the "new" BN and ML centres were first proposed. The then execs wanted one centre all along but Dept of Defence (and no it wasnt RAAF ATC) knocked it back, they wanted three for security reasons, ie PH, BN & ML. Defence also gets all civil radar feeds.

Eventually a compromise was reached and we have what we have. Only an opinion but would be very surprised if Gov. allows one centre after all that has happened but you never know.

Again, please don't rip my headoff.

[nick charles]

and build a single 'super' centre somewhere? Canberra?2012?
------------------------------------------------------------------

How about Hermannsburg? Can't get much more "central" than there!

[peuce]

I know my prevous post may seem like "twaddle" , but the more I think about it ...

If our staffing problems really do look to be long term .... could ATC Aus be done remotely? Our gear, via satelite links.

I know the Kiwis are always casting entreprenurial eyes this way. We do Honiara remotely, don't we? Couldn't someone else do the reverse?

Maybe enroute only? Keep the Towers staffed by Aussies.

Political and Security issues aside, could it be that desperate that we have to consider this option?

[max1]

The idea is to build a new 'super' centre, not put it in 'BS' castle.
If you check, you will find you signed something agreeing to be moved anywhere in Australia. Look at all the tower newbies that got moved to fill holes under the 'career progression' model.

I agree with Direct No Speed, if this crowd reckon they can do it by 2012, I would add 10+ years to this number.Remember SDE was invented in late 2005 and in November 2006, an implementation date of Nov 2007 was decided upon. Here we are nearly 2 years down the track of a 1 year project and no end in sight.

TAAATS upgrades used to be numbered 5.2 etc. This was supposed to mean the second update of 2005. When these were then running 2 years behind schedule they started renaming them Version 12/13 etc to save embarrasment.

I didn't say the idea would work, just that they have a concept of Plan F ready to be rolled out to a gullible Board and the Media.

He's not the Messiah, he's just a very naughty boy.

[Starts with P]

They don't like spending money at the best of times! Can you see them paying to relocate 600 staff!

And don't forget, they may say that you signed something promising to move anywhere in the country, but if theyu said I had to move, I would just leave... So would most I imagine.

[nafai]

but if theyu said I had to move, I would just leave... So would most I imagine.

Unless some of the workforce are originally from an environment of doing what they are told and are used to relocating every few years:E

[man on the ground]

TAAATS upgrades used to be numbered 5.2 etc. This was supposed to mean the second update of 2005. When these were then running 2 years behind schedule they started renaming them Version 12/13 etc to save embarrasment.

Hmm, I don't know about that Max1, seems we haven't changed naming conventions after all; version 12 is looking good for 2012 :E

[max1]

Version 12 just got rolled back off the Simulator (proving ground) in Brisbane tonight. Version 5.2 put back on. Man on the ground you're probably right.

Saw a comic strip somewhere saying that if everyone is doing 'Worlds Best Practice' doesn't that mean the same as mediocre.

Also, re- the Super Centre, got advice today that the BN and ML centres, for most people , are permanent appointments. Redundancy provisions would be triggered if they wanted to move to one centre. I'll bet they haven't even twigged to that yet. If it went to CB, BN and ML would all be entitled.

Apparently the Panic Button is being belted in meetings today as the implications of the expiration of Facilitative Arrangements are starting to dawn on the bureaucrats. You can't whittle your staff down to the bone and continue to gnaw.

We have tried to get this lot to realise that what they are doing is unsustainable for over 5 years. People are leaving and still they persist in fudging with figures. They just never cottoned on that we care more than they do about a safe sustainable ATC system, that we have been doing CPR on this nearly drowned body, and that we can't keep it up.

It will take years to recover, and they act like it will all be fixed next week

[Slugfest]

August 55th 2008 today...

[groundstation]

August 56th 2008 tomorrow....

[Bill Woodfull]

You bloody recalcitrants...




1. The main aim of the entity (in descending order of priority):a. Profit. Bucks for the Governments budget surplus that they need badly;b. Publishing. Glossy magazines with a ratio of one controller photograph per 20 pages so people realise that separating and sequencing was our Raison d'etre yesteryear; finally,c. Air Navigation. An annoying drain on profit but brings in the revenue due service provision (hopefully eliminated as a source of income through more lucrative ventures in the coming years).2. Australian Cricket. As a an ex-captain of Australia I envisage that the ammount of spin I detect eminating from the "House Of Spin" on Constitution Ave, they are working on the perfect 'spinner'. I hear it may almost be a cyborg - A combination of O'Reilly, Grimmett, Iverson, Benaud, Gleeson, Mallett and Warne. Imagine bowling sides out for under 150 on day 2 at Adelaide but can drink, smoke, gamble, cuss and fornicate with 2 models at once.

Think of your country, think of the baggy green, and have a foaming mug of harden-the-f*ck-up.

Have faith the ashes series in coming.

PS Oh, and by the way, consider if Tony said to the board, "ditch the profit caveat and be revenue neutral (not a burden on the taxpayer)"(?). Problem solved eh wot?

[undervaluedATC]

yet another wasted opportunity by AsA yesterday at another (and I use the term loosely) "negotiation" meeting.here we are more than 5 months after we were supposed to commence EBA negotiations (AsA only managed to come to the first 5 weeks late) and we still have no offer to consider from AsA - only a wishlist of how AsA would like us to give up principles of rostering, agree to master rosters, substantial reductions in sick leave entitlements, obligatory overtime, etc.

[peuce]

Well, you can sit there and continue to field their demands until you get sick of it and start agreeing to some of them ... to shut them up (standard negotiation ploy)

Or, you can start putting forward your own vision and demands.

[Lodown]

peuce, the boot is on the ATC foot. In addition to your suggestion, demand and follow through with delays in meeting timelines due to workload, meet with individual managers at odd times instead of the managers as a group, demand rewrites in contracts over minor nuances, negotiate with indiviual managers in separate areas of responsibility, demand different requirements in Brisbane to those in Melbourne just to frustrate and delay negotiations further, bust up managerial union by starting false rumours and innuendoes of what one manager said about another manager, invite the managers to meet on your terms and not theirs. Managers have been using these tactics for years. Turn the tables.

[cattledog]

peuce, :mad:
would that be the vision document that was presented at the very 1st meeting to these people.


:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[ER_BN]

Ah man on the ground....

You beat me to it re V12 being probably 2012.

But are you really sure its a year thing??

I mean who says V13 by 2013???

You would have to be an optimist!

[man on the ground]

I mean who says V13 by 2013???

who says V13?

at all

:E

[ER_BN]

motg...

"Ah, grasshopper"!!

[SARMC]

"Trainees In The Tower In Airliner "Swerve"


An incident that thankfully ended with some fairly rattled pilots and passengers but no more than a little lost tire rubber begs the question of who is training whom at some of the nation's air traffic control towers. The National Air Traffic Controllers Union says two trainee controllers were in on duty by themselves in the Lehigh International Airport tower when a Mesa Airlines CRJ700 had to swerve (as in the sudden deviation from a straight path) to avoid a just-landed Cessna 172 while taking off from the Allentown, Pa., airport. The widely accepted estimate is the RJ, with 60 passengers aboard, missed the 172 by about 10 feet while decelerating from 120 knots. According to the NTSB, the Cessna was told to take an early taxiway exit but missed and the pilot reported he or she was heading for the next taxiway. The trainees missed that and, thinking the 172 had left the runway, cleared the RJ for takeoff.


The Mesa crew apparently heard the 172 pilot's report that the controllers missed but started the takeoff. They were almost at rotation speed when they spotted the Cessna and swerved to miss it. While no one is so disputing the facts of the incident, NATCA is suggesting a shortage of qualified controllers played a role and it's sure to come up at a meeting of the House Aviation Subcommittee on Thursday to discuss--runway safety. "The FAA is so desperate to staff its towers they are forced to work trainees by themselves without adequate numbers of experienced controllers there to work with them," said NATCA President Patrick Forrey. "This has exposed the inexperience of our new workforce. It's unfair to these trainees and should be unacceptable to the flying public." The Mesa flight (operating for United) was cancelled."

AVwebFlash September 25, 2008

At least they have trainees in the USA...........

Regards to all
Stephen

[TrafficTraffic]

:ugh::ugh: What a silly thing to post!

Lets all find stories about ATC from around the world and post them in the PPRuNe Forums > Dunnunda & Godzone > D & G Reporting Points > ASA Solves Staff Shortage thread....


heres my contribution -

PUSHING TIN (http://www.foxmovies.com/pushingtin/)

TT :confused:

[undervaluedATC]

peuce
As cattledog said, the vision document is a very good indication of what is needed to bring Aus ATC's to parity to the average worldwide remuneration for ATC. And AsA has failed to present any offer after 11 meetings to date.

direct no speedNice rumour doing the rounds that they made a technical loss for the year.

If so, I wonder who pays for that? Yesterday 07:47

According to the financial officer at Waypoint 2008 (financial report not yet released) AsA has returned something like $27,000,000 in Avcharges to industry because traffic levels were higher than forecast. That seems like a sure indication of a bumper profit to me!

The only way AsA could have made a technical loss is by pouring HUGE AMOUNTS OF DOLLARS into infrastructure (the Tower simulator springs to mind for some reason), or by paying off debt ahead of schedule.

Now why (and how) would AsA, who made $106M in profit the previous financial year, suddenly declare a loss the following year, just prior to the expiry date of an EBA?

[TrafficTraffic]

Kavokar,

I must not be in the know then - unlike yourself.

I know of no 'live' ATC being dont by trainees on their own - if you are referring to other training activity I fail to see how that is a precedent...


I think you find that pilots use and operate simulators or procedural mock-ups without supervision...


TT

[SARMC]

Hi TT,

The reason that I posted that article is that it refered to two situations that may be of some interest to Australian ATCs. The first being that the USA has a severe ATC shortage, as has Australia. Maybe some Aussie ATCs could look for alternative work there although I believe their pay on condidtions are not much better than ours.

The second is in reference to trainees being used unsupervised in "live" positions.

I found some irony in the fact that the USA has trainees, something that we do not seem to have. And as the title of my message insinuated, it would be better if AsA did not see the article because, if and when we do get trainees in the field, it may just enter management's thick skulls to use them (to alleviate staff shorages) as reported in the article.

I hope that has cleared a few things up for you.

BTW, I have seen trainees left unsupervised, albeit for short periods of time.

Regards
Stephen

[topdrop]

SARMC Are you really saying thisI have seen trainees left unsupervised and the USA has trainees, something that we do not seem to haveFirstly, I trust you submitted an ESIR for unsupervised trainees. Secondly, AsA does have trainees, just not enough of them. Stop trying to be sensationalist and post stuff a bit closer to the truth - it will help the ATC cause more in the long run.

[Blockla]

IMHO, In the US trainees are that until they become the equivalent of FPC; so full rated etc, when doing operational duty solo, but not FPC = Trainee.

[SARMC]

Hi Topdrop,

The matter of the unsupervised trainees was reported to the relevent people at the time and the necessary disciplinary action was taken at that time. This was in the days before ESIRs...remember CA225s?

Yes, we do have some trainees in the field, my mistake, my reference should have been narrowed to indicate ATC trainees being actively trained within the "college". However the yanks appear to have many more in the field and have many more in the pipeline.

The initial post, and reply to TT, were made "tongue in cheek" as a broad comparison between the two countries.

I spent almost 35 years as an ATC (and Civil Air member) which included some pretty intense industrial action including strikes. So I am not un-sympathetic to the Civil Air cause.

I was able to retire from ATC some 4 years ago and have not had to experience some of the most bloody minded management actions I have ever seen and that current ATCs are enduring.

My best wishes go with you, don't give in and, if you are old enough to remember, don't be fooled by the "secret initiative" (R Garlic circa 1978)

Regards
Stephen

[BeGoneTFN]

The way the EBA negotiations appear to be going its rather apparent that the iceberg looms large as we head towards December.

Will the Captain go down with his ship or will it be CEO and management types to the lifeboats whilst the crew pay for their insubordination.

I believe that yet again air traffic controllers will be in the cross-hairs, thanks TFN its a pleasure doing business with you particularily in regard to our EBA.

Despite all of your rhetoric we know where we stand, you are simply the worst manager our organisation has had the misfortune to contract, yes remember that your tenure is finite the rest of us until you arrived at least felt that we could work for ASA indefinitely. You sure fixed that!

December here we come!!!!!

[Aus ATC]

I hear contract ALMs recently got 4.3% "market movement". Not sure which market has moved, because so far ATC's have got nothing.

[Fly_by_wire]

I thought someone would have posted about the impending industrial action by Airservices against the ATC's in SYD by now.... what's the word on the ground ??

[welcome_stranger]

Do believe AsA's actions today show how desperate upper management is to point the finger of blame in some (any) other direction, especially as it seems the problems they are encountering were conveyed to the present CEO within days of him taking over - nearly 3 years ago.

[ferris]

What are they up to now?

[max1]

ASA are taking Civilair to the IRC, blaming them for an industrial campaign that is causing service disruptions.

Civilair has NEVER directed ATCs not to do overtime. Apparently there were some 'notes' left in a couple of peoples 'mailboxes' at work.Who (?) it was who actually left these notes is not known.

ASA contend that this is some form of industrial action, they have also been furnished with a couple of edited comments off the Civilair Members Only forum site, and are citing these to back up their dubious claim.
They are not citing the many comments on the site that pertain to, an individuals right to assess their own fitness for duty in regards to overtime, ASAs total mismanagement over the last six years of its workforce planning, or the fatigue and disengagement of its workforce. ASA don't do 'balance'.

ASA will cite this trip to the IRC as an example of an industrial action, and try to lay the blame on the controllers in an attempt to cover up the culture which has been exacerbated under Greg Russells stewardship.

Who has 'gained' under this 'discovery' of notes? If in fact, someone did attempt to intimidate people, ASA should track them down and discipline accordingly.

[undervaluedATC]

An even better question to consider is:

If the staffing problem is fixed, how come 3 people going sick caused such an extended delay?

[LapSap]

Apparently there were some 'notes' left in a couple of peoples 'mailboxes' at work.

Has the potential to get pretty ugly for whoever was responsible given the content of the notes and the group targeted. At least one of them might have access to some significant high level investigative resources.
Bullyboy tactics by either side can't be condoned. :=

[tobzalp]

LOL. For real? Pretty silly on the writer of the notes. Was this in Sydney?

[undervaluedATC]

advice from the civilair site is that AsA withdraw their application this morning.

don't know the reason for sure, but I would guess that the "evidence" of anonymous notes was not a sound basis for their claim.

As someone on the union web site suggested, if we had the equivalent of AsA's spin department, we could claim that "Airservices admits ATCs aren't engaged in industrial action".

But we already knew that.

As has been said repeatedly, one day (hopefully soon) AsA will realise that cutting back the training capability/capacity, and removing 107 controllers from seperating aircraft, was always going to have an effect.

[LapSap]

advice from the civilair site is that AsA withdraw their application this morning.


That may solve one problem but it won't stop further investigation into the source of the standover letters. Targeting newly rated regional services staff for helping avoid airspace closure is pretty low.:(

[undervaluedATC]

LapSap, did you overlook the part where the notes were described as anonymous?

[Bill Woodfull]

LapSap,

What are you on about?

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and am a mere Approach wacko but the IRC thing was Sydney and surrounding airspace. What has regional services got to do with it?

Or, are you talking about those working Tassie airspace that are doing 9 (or is it 10) days on and 1 day off to keep it all afloat? (Airspace staffing NOT Tasmania...get it...afloat...thats a joke :p ).

Someone throw me a bone here!!!

I'm trying to deal with Australia's spinning crisis in Bangalore for fecks sake gents, provide more info as to whom we are to kneecap.

I personally prefer a Sydney kneecapping because the waterfront areas are far more salubrious nowadays.

But, jokes aside, I'm awaiting a pan call from the AWB...going circles with terrain, Icebergs, dissaffected staff etc.

The USA, solve a debt crisis by creating more debt; Airservices, solve a staffing crisis by pissing off and disenfranchising your staff where the global market is rubber stamping.:ugh::rolleyes:

This is going to get interesting.

Jail terms following the Royal Commission?

Bill

[ferris]

Lionel has been representing AsA for years, judging by their strike rate! :cool:

They can only pull these smoke-and-mirrors stunts so often before the Minister wakes up and has a look at the bridge they are selling. :ok:

[Bill Woodfull]

Apparently 2 of the 3 controllers who called in sick in SY were NOT Civil Air members.

That golden! ROFLMAO.

"Captain! Icebergs on the horizon" "Flank speed son, I know my way around here".

I'm trying to sell dehyd popcorn on the internet...

We have our baggy green boys pushing brown substances up an incline in the subcontinent;
The immolation of Capitalism because some in America think that a picture of George washington on green and white paper is similar to the picture of Benny Franklin so lets multiply that money 'invisibly' (sp); and,
Lies, deciept and 7 figure salaries...

[Quokka]

Airservices has a coloured history in respect of matters of fraud... hence the appointment of Fraud Control Officers a few years ago. Don't underestimate the ability of individuals to create fraudulent documents and make false statements with malicious intent. It's happened before.

With time... small corruptions... become big corruptions.

[Slugfest]

Bit late but here is what was posted in CEO Direct...

CEO Messages

Special CEO Direct - 3 October 2008
Friday, 3 October 2008
Airservices Australia has today made an application to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission asking it to intervene and stop industrial action that has caused serious disruption to air traffic movements into and out of Sydney in the last 24 hours.

We have taken this action to address an increase in service disruptions caused by some Air Traffic Controllers refusing to work reasonable overtime to cover unplanned absences. These disruptions have coincided with the commencement of our Collective Agreement negotiations.

It is a credit to the professionalism of the majority of our ATC staff that they are getting on with it and getting the job done. It has become obvious that there is a minority that aren’t doing the right thing and Airservices can no longer tolerate the disruption to our customers.

[ferris]

So a "minority of staff" are involved in industrial action by refusing to work on their days off......causing major disruptions.

What would happen if a majority of staff engaged in industrial action, and decided not to work on THEIR DAYS OFF?

What would happen if the majority of staff engaged in real industrial action, and not just the excuse-for-not-being-able-to-balance-making-my-bonus-as-well-as-keeping-the-shop-open lies? I guess the CEO could blame-shift with a straight face. Maybe thats (cue sinister music) the plan?

I think August 135, 2008 might go down in history as a watershed in industrial relations at AsA.

I'd have to think about it, but if I was on 100k or so per month, I might do/say absolutely anything to squeak out another month or two. When government owned "businesses" are setting up tax shelters in foreign countries in order to exploit 'loopholes', anything is possible (ethically speaking).

[max1]

Read the ASA claim before the IRC, prepared by a partner and Senior Associate of a BIG law firm.

Part of it states,
That it will be binding on ASA
Civilair
The employees of ASA employed by Civilair employed in the SY TCU and Melbourne on(sic) route centres.

Maybe the fact that Civilair doesn't have any ATCs as 'employees' cruelled things.
I wonder how much ASA got charged for this legal piece of wizardry? Partner and Senior Associate. Trips to the IRC, phone calls, faxes, and a 'snow flakes chance in hell' . The rumour going around is that 2 of the 3 weren't Civilair members anyway.

We must pay global prices to get the best managers. Maybe if they spent the time doing the job they were paid for , we wouldn't be in this mess.

[ferris]

Personally, I think you need to pull your head in, Max.

The 'management' has publicly stated that it has barely 3 years since becoming aware of the staff problem, which isnt a staff problem, its industrial action orchestrated by the union- who, quite rightly, were dragged into the IRC for a shillacking, and even if the majority of the rebels aren't in the union, it's unprofessional not to work on every day off. In fact, several emergency meetings were held over the last week to rename days off, as that incorrectly implies some idea that the employee will not be attending work. Fortunately, a solution has been found, and there will now be rostered days, and the poorly named "days off" will now be "late notice of shift days". You would have to agree that even though the wording of the EBA says days off, that wasnt the intent. These loose interpretations threaten bonuses, sorry, business imperatives.

3 Years. Just 3 years, and in that time you also expect them to have gutted the college, and then flogged the students until they can train themselves. You expect there to have been meetings held in order to generate the plan. (It might have been possible that some oversight or accountability had materialised). You need a plan when that happens. You expect that funding will have been found in order to alter TAAATs software to recognise 3 digit dates for when August exceeds the previous administrations short-sightedness in only expecting 2 digits per month. That budget has already blown out, after factoring in the possibility of 4 digit months. You expect SDE disciples to have been recruited and converted. There are all those intercontinental meetings to decide which tax shelters to use...the list goes on.

3 years, Max. Just 3 years. Pretty rude.

[max1]

Apologies Ferris,

I wasn't thinking. You are right the CURRENT management has had only three years notice of the impending crisis.

Well three years down the track I believe we have 'end-to-end', 'Worlds Best Practice', 'growing the business going forward'.

The amount of 'optimisation' of 'client centric focus' is making Airservices an 'employer of choice'. 'Our core strategy' of creating a 'suite of non-remuneration benefits' for 'Our Commitment-Our People' has seen an 'holistic', central but 'flattened management structure' showcased in a 'World Leading Learning Academy'.
As we 'embark on our journey', 'embracing challenges', and 'delivering the future' we will have our 'vision' of 'Leaders Leading'

I'm pretty sure thats what it says,not sure what it means? That is about 10% of the cliches that get thrown around. Which ones have I forgotten?

Meanwhile the controllers, firies, techs,FDCs, Ausfic,SSOs,Instructors and training staff (apologies to the ones I have missed) just try to continue doing more with less as the SS Airshambles heads toward the iceberg.

[C 337]

Sorry for my naivety, but if, as is obvious to even the blind, TFN and other individuals are doing such an inept job at running AsA, how the F*$K are they still in their positions enjoying the lerks and perks??

[peuce]

That, dear C337, is one of life's little mysteries :confused:

[undervaluedATC]

C337Sorry for my naivety, but if, as is obvious to even the blind, TFN and other individuals are doing such an inept job at running AsA, how the F*$K are they still in their positions enjoying the lerks and perks??

I would guess that because they have delivered an increase in profit each year (constant cutbacks will do that) no-one has looked at how it's been achieved.

[Aus ATC]

Special CEO Direct - 6 October 2008
Monday, 6 October 2008
On Saturday, Airservices Australia withdrew an application to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission asking it to intervene and stop industrial action that has caused serious disruption to air traffic movements into and out of Sydney in the last 24 hours.

We have taken this action because we now recognise an increase in service disruptions is because we have failed to provide adequate staffing and have successfully disengaged our ATC workforce. These disruptions have nothing to do with our Collective Agreement negotiations.

It is a credit to the professionalism of the majority of our ATC staff that they are getting on with it and getting the job done. It has become obvious that controllers are doing the right thing and Airservices will continue the disruption to our customers until I am sacked by the minister and someone capable is employed to fix things properly.


..........Only joking - but I wonder if the CEO will be quite so willing to trumpet a backdown on Monday.

[max1]

C337,

As far as the Board and TFN go,

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t.

A bit like the US of A financial crisis, if the numbers are great never mind about the underlying problems.

[Quokka]

Perhaps there was never an intention to pursue an action against Civilair and the non-members involved... instead, lodge the application... issue a press release... wait until the allegation is in the media... and then cancel the application.

The aim is to change public sentiment against all of the Air Traffic Controllers, gain the support of the shareholder and win in the EBA negotiations.

[peuce]

There you go again ... giving them too much credit !

[BeGoneTFN]

Quokka

I also have absolutely no doubt that this is just a part of the strategy ASA has planned to implement as we move closer to December.

Make us look like crap with a bit of ground work so that Dick Fudley can cane us come the time when everyone finally gets the sh*its and says,

"NO MORE!, you ar*seholes"

whoops I did it twice ** :E, someone smack me

BgTFN

[Quokka]

peuce... true, I have assumed an intelligent mind is behind the actions of Airservices' management much too often.

Acts of defamation against controllers have been seen in the Melbourne Centre, and, one manager involved is now in Sydney. Regardless of the legal advice that they may have received prior to lodging the application, I have no doubt that the client instruction was to lodge the application with the intent of maligning the reputation of Air Traffic Controllers in the media.

[Flying Binghi]

Acts of defamation against controllers...

Are these people out of their feckin minds ?

IMHO, problems at the coal face is a direct result of managerial incompetence :suspect:

[undervaluedATC]

Acts of defamation against controllers have been seen

Now ask why there seems to be a deliberate policy of antagonistic claims against ATC's. Beginning with this claim of "renegade controllers" months ago. If renegades existed prior to now, surely they would have been identified and dismissed?

Maybe if TFN claims there are renegade controllers often enough, and continues with the heavy handed approach to staff terms & conditions, he may just succeed in creating some.

But why would TFN need renegades?

[trueline]

From our glorious leader today:

Special CEO Direct - 08 October 2008
Wednesday, 8 October 2008
As I advised on Friday afternoon, Airservices made an application to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission asking it to intervene and stop industrial action that caused serious disruption to air traffic movements in Sydney on Friday.

A hearing was convened by Vice President Graeme Watson at 5pm on Friday and went late into the night.

As a result of the Commission proceedings Civil Air undertook to post on its web site the following;

“Civil Air does not endorse any refusal to work a reasonable amount of additional hours, on a request other than in accordance with clause 4.3.2 (a) – (e) of the certified agreement, and recommends its members use their best endeavours to ensure any unplanned absences are covered”.

The union also agreed to contact members who worked on the Sydney Approach Group to convey that statement directly to them.

We considered the union statement as a positive step and decided on Saturday morning to withdraw our application.

Unfortunately a number of further disruptions have occurred in the previous few days based around differences in opinion of what constitutes “reasonable overtime” and an unwillingness to cover a number of unplanned absences.

Australia’s national airways system is now regularly being disrupted by some who are trying to pressure the organisation over a wage claim.

These disruptions are creating major delays to airline schedules and, as we saw last Friday, considerable inconvenience to thousands of passengers.

Accordingly yesterday afternoon we filed a further application in the Commission asking for it to assist in settling what we see as a dispute with Civil Air and with some of its members, around how the obligation in the ATC Certified Agreement to work a reasonable amount of additional hours is being interpreted.

We hope that the Commission will be able to list the matter for consideration before the end of the week. This will allow for conciliation on the interpretation of what constitutes “reasonable overtime”. This is a fundamental issue for Airservices.

Unless this issue is clarified we cannot effectively operate a 24 hour national operation while a small number of controllers consider that for them working “reasonable overtime” is optional.

Greg Russell
CEO



STILL all stick and no carrot!

[nafai]

This coming from someone who cut things to the bone, destroyed morale and any remaining goodwill. When will they realise its not a 'normal job' where a couple of hours overtime doesn't hurt. Time away is just as important to freshen up when safety is involved. Fully staff the rosters properly and not with creative numbers and we wouldn't be in this problem.

[RAAFASA]

while a small number of controllers consider that for them working “reasonable overtime” is optional.

Overtime is optional - that's why it's OVER time! Bloody hell - how hard is this concept? While they are working on defining "reasonable" overtime, I hope they also take a look at "recurrent" overtime - years and years of being asked, pressured and then bullied to work overtime not just occasionally, but constantly. Once a month is not reasonable IMHO - overtime should be a short term, emergency solution to an unforseen problem, not an ongoing, cheap replacement for adequate staffing. :*

[Hempy]

RAAFASA, with that attitude you'll get nowhere. :=

No, overtime is NOT optional. You are REQUIRED to work REASONABLE overtime. It's in the CA. The sticky is in the definition of "reasonable", and the definition ASA are expecting you to follow is theirs..people who never work overtime believe it is "reasonable" for those that do to come in whenever they are bloody well required, and anyone who says "no" in the knowledge that their refusal means closing airspace, well that's not just unreasonable, it's also "unprofessional" and "renegade".

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

In ye days of olde,

The term used to be accepted as one O/T shift per fort. - from memory.

Has this changed??:ok:

Regards to all.......:):).

[Driscoll]

Ye days of olde I believes relates to a decision made in 1989, before terms such as fatigue management, work/life balance, etc. Seems like AsA is angling for the commission to make a ruling so that AsA can threaten anyone who knocks back OT with action.

[undervaluedATC]

This IRC avenue is all about shifting the blame to ATC's.

You cannot take 107 controllers off the roster, away from seperating traffic, and just expect the remaining 750 or so to cover their absence with overtime.

It takes up to 18 months to get an ATC their first rating. And usually another 6 to 12 months to get any other ratings in that airspace group. After 4 years, TFN should know the lead-in times required. But the "restructure" went ahead anyway. (Johnnie was on his way out, and AsA had to get the AWA's in.....)

It won't matter what the IRC defines reasonable overtime as. AsA - probably because publicly they use statistics across service delivery lines (which include 3 or more ATC airspace groups each) to average the overtime required to a better sounding extra 1.1 shifts (or something like that) per ATC per month - But AsA needs to acknowledge that some groups need almost no overtime, and others for example have their rosters published with empty shifts to be filled in advance - BEFORE ANYONE GOES SICK!!

FFS - it's a safety critical job! Making ATC's work more overtime is going to increase their fatigue, impair their performance, and increase the risk of something going wrong!

[Chief galah]

We're not tackling this from the right direction.

Our base line should be "reasonable time off", not "reasonable overtime"

TFN's latest has lost me (and I'm conservative), no wonder any respect
for these bozo's has gone.

[max1]

Hempy,
I'm not sure where you are coming from.

A phone call at 5am to attend at 6am, could never be deemed to be reasonable. A day or 2 notice could be called reasonable. The aisle I work in Brisbane probably now has 70% with school age children, 5 years ago it was about 15%. Its called work/life balance, and the demographic was pointed out over 6 years ago.

TFN has traded on the controllers goodwill, and professional pride, to never have airspace closures for his entire tenure. His short-term bonus driven culture has been underpinned by this. The profits ASA have delivered to the government have been due to the airlines flying more and the cut in controller numbers.His forays have been more about growing the global brand, and how much has that cost?

The Board allowed him his way, because profits were up. They brought him in as a 'cost cutter', and his bonuses were predicated on this, and he has delivered short term. Long term his actions have led us to this point. ASA have a catch phrase of 'Leaders Leading'. Well when the CEO is remunerated for a short term result it should come as no surprise to the Board where we are being led to! The Board have a lot to answer for in this debacle.

Their only recourse is to continue to back the 'Smoke and Mirrors' man or be exposed to being asleep at the wheel." Golly, I thought this was an easy gig, no-one told me I was actually supposed to provide some oversight"

People will allow their lives to be decimated for the common good for only so long. Three years this idiot was given to make good his promises, and for three years he has had a short term outlook. His comments in the media only serve to inflame the situation. I have sympathy for JH, I believe he is trying, with one hand tied behind his back, to achieve something.

TFNs personality does not allow him to admit fault and move forward. He has seriously misjudged the mood of the controllers, and is trying to convince himself that Civilair is behind some self perceived industrial campaign rather than that he, and his team, has terribly mismanaged the situation.

TFN may be time for the Golden Parachute, or as ASA love to put it out " He has left to pursue other opportunities"

[Hempy]

Hempy,
I'm not sure where you are coming from.
A phone call at 5am to attend at 6am, could never be deemed to be reasonable.

max1,
My point, in a rather convoluted way, is this. What YOU or I decide is REASONABLE is irrelevant. We don't get to make that choice. ASA are telling us (in their own special confrontational IRC way) that THEY decide what is reasonable, not you. You are just a worker ant. There are untold numbers of media bites of the ASA CEO complaining that ATC's are being UNREASONABLE (amongst other things).THEY (ASA) set the employment conditions....YOU agree to them when you sign up, ipso facto any time you don't do what they want you are being UNREASONABLE (theres that word again)...

Which is all to say that to prevent any of this rubbish in the future, REASONABLE should be CLEARLY defined (clearly enough to be monitored, by BOTH sides) in the next CA, if not deleted from it entirely. If ASA want to run a BUSINESS that is propped up by permanent 50+ hour weeks, they can at least put their requirements in black and white, not by the disengenious method of "REASONABLE". IMO.

[5miles]

We have a Board????
Do any of them have a pulse????

Someone check to see if the machine that goes ping is still plugged in. :ugh:

[Pera]

We don't get to make that choice. ASA are telling us (in their own special confrontational IRC way) that THEY decide what is reasonable, not you.

Unfortunately for ASA, the IRC will actually decide what is reasonable. While the CA is collective, the definition of 'reasonable' will differ depending on the individuals circumstances.

The term 'reasonable' doesn't stretch to covering for inept management.

[ferris]

If this gets argued well in the IRC, I think AsA might get a shock.

Overtime is just that. OVER TIME. Traditionally used to cover short term increases in labour requirement (big extra job needs completion in short time etc). As someone pointed out earlier, relying on constant overtime, forever, is not reasonable. It is a permanent adjustment to T&Cs, to basic working hours. Hours not agreed to by the employee. The EBA needs to be altered to reflect this ie. "the employee shall be required to work UP TO 44 hours per week". Then there would be overtime on top of this, to cover short term, unplanned increases in labour requirement.

I'm sure the employees would agree, given adequate adjustment to the basic remuneration, annual leave etc.

Just have to decide what's 'adequate".:ok:

[max1]

Thanks Hempy,
Now I get what you are alluding to.
It amazes me with all the people they have running around giving presentations, working on projects, flying around for meetings, writing vision statements,etc, they have never bothered researching the demographics of their most critical workforce.
Its not rocket science.

[Howabout]

Max, from discussions with the previous generation of middle-level management, I understand that the 'demographic' was well known as far back as 2001, but ignored in the interests of the short-term bottom-line. In short, the organisation shafted itself.

[max1]

Howabout,
Unfortunately the greasy pole doesn't allow people to point out obvious speed bumps. Unless you are saying Yes Sir to the bonus driven CEOs you are seen as 'not a team player' and given the 'opportunity to pursue other interests'.
'Long term planning' went out the window along with 'integrity' and 'common sense', there wasn't enough room in the building when 'bonuses' came in.
We got rid of bonuses as they weren't conducive to a safety industry. We replaced bonuses with 'at risk' components.
The difference is (as you know)
a) you are on a $200k with a $50k bonus for hitting some target,total package $250k. This is bad.
b) you are on $250k, if you dont hit the target we take off $50k. This is good and completely different to situation (a).

At risk components are completely different to bonuses. Pleeeaase!

[Duff Man]

max1, they are probably completely different

a) Super is based on $200k
b) Super is based on $250k
:rolleyes:

[Nautilus Blue]

they have never bothered researching the demographics of their most critical workforce


Max1, you're making a big assumption about our mangers mindset. TFN thinks he's running a call centre. After all, controllers are unskilled people taken off the street and given a quick (but lets make it quicker, save some money!) internal training course. They then do a rigidly prescribed job by simply following a set of rules :rolleyes:. The important people sit in offices making Big Picture Blue Sky/Greenfield Paradigm Shifting Synergistic/Holistic decisions.

NB

[undervaluedATC]

excerpt from an union update on the AIRC meeting today (be interesting to go to work tomorrow and see how AsA spin it :hmm:)

The Airservices application to the Australian Industrial Relations Commission (AIRC) to have a dispute resolution process conducted, went before Commissioner Smith at 2.30pm today in Melbourne. .... The Commission adjourned to consider the respective positions. Upon his return he determined the following: Civil Air have a jurisdictional argument to run and as such the Commission will list the matter to hear these arguments at 10.00am on Friday, 17 October 2008. Airservices are to provide “its materials” including any orders they may seek, to the Australian Industrial Registry and Civil Air by Wednesday 15 October 2008. He has also set aside 27-28 October 2008 for Hearing which will either proceed or not, depending on the outcome of the jurisdictional argument on 17 October 2008. The Commissioner indicated that the decision on that matter would be issued expeditiously.

sounds to me like AsA did not get the quick injunction they were looking for....


EDIT, the next hearing on the 17th is 2 days after the due date for the AsA financial report to be tabled to parliment. I don't think that was just luck on the part of the Commisioner.....

[Howabout]

Max,

Thanks for the reply. All of my posts have, mysteriously, disappeared. I got a message along the lines of 'update your email' (which was still current), but I don't think I've been banned - scratches head.

[Hempy]

After all, controllers are unskilled people taken off the street and given a quick (but lets make it quicker, save some money!) internal training course. They the do a rigidly prescribed job by simply following a set of rules. The important people sit in offices making Big Picture Blue Sky/Greenfield Paradigm Shifting Synergistic/Holistic decisions.

http://nteam.ru/bank/img/gold_bars_01.jpg

10 years ago I would have called you cynical....

[boree3]

Nice post Hempy!

I would add that Management(?) are also planning on technology ( FPCP etc) reducing the number of controllers over time.

Now don`t get me wrong, computers etc have changed the way we do things but, and it`s a big but, management seem to have forgotten the best decisions are made in that lump of grey matter floating between most peoples ears. Technology will never replace completely a properly trained and suitably experienced controller from making really really important desisions when the you know what hits the fan.

One only has to look at recent events @FL370 off the coast of W.A. Computer problems or not the Man ( or Woman ) in the left hand seat gathered the evidence and made some quick decisions. Result? Excellent!

There is no substitute for a suitably trained ( and renumerated! ) individual.....

[undervaluedATC]

I would add that Management(?) are also planning on technology ( FPCP etc) reducing the number of controllers over time.

the only problem is that FPCPF function is years away. They're still testing it, and arguing about its impact on the role of ATC's (will be we still be seperators or just monitors with assoiciated legal issues) And they have'nt even started the training - and I think enough has already been written about our training capacity.

[gupta]

C'mon chaps
Remember Management strategy #1:
"Floggings will continue until morale improves"

[trueline]

To quote from part of an article in The Oz on 9 Oct:

"Airservices accuses controllers of refusing to work overtime in order to strengthen their hand in current negotiations for improved wages and conditions.

The issue came to a head on Sunday when 11 out of 119 controllers in Melbourne called in sick -- a situation Airservices believes is part of an undeclared industrial campaign by controllers and their union.

"On Sunday there were 11 unplanned absences from Melbourne control centre, none of which were able to be covered," Airservices spokesman Rob Walker said yesterday."

He wants the media and the public to believe not one controller came in on one of their rare Sundays off to help. Not true.
A quick look at the electronic daysheets shows over 20 controllers either attended on their day off, extended their shift or changed from another shift.
Controllers are keeping the place running in spite of being continually bagged by our employer.

To the media: please don't be fooled by their desperate spin.

[undervaluedATC]

11 out of 119 controllers

this is also spin.

There might be that many across all the airspace groups that were affected by sickness that day, but only a subset of the 119 - likely 15 to 20 odd in each case - would have the particular combination of ratings needed to replace the particular shift. Of those, probably 65% would already be at work that day, maybe 10-15% would be on holidays, leaving perhaps 25%, or maybe 4-5 people rostered off, who might have been eligible (fatigue wise) to fill the shift.

the other issue with this "overtime" is that it is SHORT NOTICE overtime - you usually get called only a few hours before AsA wants you to come in. If you've taken some medicine, had a drink, or just not had enough sleep, you are not fit for duty, and so you cannot attend - no matter how much AsA might want you to.

If we had a policy of overstaffing - or even an actual "on-call" type roster, then there would be less of a problem. But one of those needs extra staff, and the other needs advance planning....

[CivilAirMember]

recently see on YouTube that may be of interest...

YouTube - Airservices Australia's Downfall (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQw0re150xQ)

enjoy,

CivilAirMember

[dabelstein]

Great work fellas.

[ER_BN]

CAM,

What can i say??

Cheers,

ER_BN

[Quokka]

We have a Board????
Do any of them have a pulse????

Someone check to see if the machine that goes ping is still plugged in.


5miles... a Board there is... a Board that stacked the sandbags high in 2004...


In 2006–07, Airservices Australia held a directors and officers liability insurance policy. It is a condition of this policy that the nature of the liability indemnified, the limits of liability and the premium payable not be disclosed to third parties except to the extent that:


Airservices Australia is required to do so by law or

the insurer consents in writing to such disclosure


On 25 June 2004, Airservices Australia gave an indemnity to present, past and future directors and officers of the corporation on certain terms and conditions in relation to claims arising in connection with them being a director or officer of Airservices Australia. This indemnity continues in force.


Airservices Australia Annual Report 2006-2007, p109.

[whymefly]

Here's a suggestion, when ASA call to interrupt your valuable time off, and you're tired/just had a beer/engaged in an otherwise unimportant task-say out paying bills to ensure continued supply of power..phone..etc,
say, "ok, I've just had that beer/I'm tired, but I'm prepared to come in and work, BUT because of the above, I'm afraid I'm only available to do non-operational duties."
In this case, you haven't refused reasonable overtime, but you have then complied with your legal obligation to work only when fit and able.
This being the case, there would then be a slight possibility that you may be unable to return to work operationally on your normally rostered shift due to being fatigued unnecessarily by working on your day(s) off.

Worth a thought,
Cheers WMF

[Fly_by_wire]

video removed :(

[Starts with P]

That's a shame... We can't even have free speech on YouTube any more!? :sad:

[max1]

'CivilAirMember' based in Canberra. Posting inflammatory material on an internet site, when we know that ASA are using any straw in the AIRC to make out that there is some quasi industrial action.Mmmmm?

Do you work in the AWB? I would suggest you change your moniker. This has now been removed from YouTube by the poster, I didn't see it, but that moniker will not help the parties come to an agreement, and is not an official CivilAir position. Maybe change your moniker to Manager of ASA.

Patsies like Cameron Stewart, will leap on this and distort it. He has to be one of the laziest journos going around, takes whatever ASA give him and purports it to be the truth.

Cameron, if you are reading this, you are either being lazy in not checking or questioning the information ASA are feeding you, or the other scenario takes us down a much darker road.
Look at the BS printed about staff shortages in Melbourne.Controllers after 63% payrise and the like. He could be a whole episode of MediaWatch on his own.

[CivilAirMember]

Posted at YouTube - CivilAirMember's Channel (http://au.youtube.com/CivilAirMember)

"My posting of the previous video on this channel was a mistake. If any offence was taken by any individual, then I apologise, and respectfully ask that this be accepted.

The President of CivilAir was totally correct in contacting the CEO of Airservices and alerting him to the placing of this video.

As I wrote in the closing credits of the video, it was my opinion only, and represented in no way the opinions of CivilAir. The stupidity was wholly mine.

Sorry."

CivilAirMember

[undervaluedATC]

Skybound one, AsA will be looking for a whole lot of controllers - all types & ratings - if they continue with the push for substantial degradations of our existing terms & conditions in the forthcoming EBA.

[max1]

For those 'not ATC' reading here, I should point out some background on reasonable O/T.
We used to have 2 types of 'overtime'.
One was rostered O/T. It was on the roster when it came out, you could plan your life around this roster, you could also knock it back, but realised that someone else would have to cover. They would also put out a list of shifts that needed covering and controllers could put their hand up to cover these shifts. There are rosters with 30+ shifts to be covered in a month by @20 staff. This is the reality due to chronic staff mismanagement.
The second type was ED (Emergency Duty) this was short term callout,someone unavailable at short notice, thunderstorms imminent, someone is taken offline due incident, etc. Notice for these can be a few hours or 'when can you get here'.

Last EBA the 'Sultans of Spin' didn't like the phrase Emergency Duty and its connotations and lumped it all under the heading of Additional Duty (AD). This sounded so much better.
I believe some industries roster people to be on standby, it is part of the job and is built into the salary, people know they are on call and can adjust their lives accordingly. No alcohol, let family and friends know that they can attend functions but may be called away, etc. ASA can't because they have understaffed and expect controllers to cover.

We have provisions for 'grey days' but due to chronic staffing shortages and mismanagement over years they cannot be utilised.

ASA expect us to be on call 24/7 and to not have planned anything on our days off or have to have had a drink, family outing, spouse working, etc. Rostered O/T is easy. Short term callout (ED) all together different.

We are that short of controllers that we are worn out, the full time spin doctors in Canberra ( I believe Corporate Affairs now have 50 staff) would like the Minister and airlines to believe otherwise. In ASAs controller numbers they count people on long term sick leave, maternity leave, and leave without pay.

The spin from BS castle at the Alan Woods Building is reminiscent of US bankers and ratings agencies bundling up sub prime mortgages as AAA rated investment vehicles, and is having the same result.

The ASA Annual Report should have landed on the Ministers desk today, should make interesting reading when(?) it gets tabled in Parliament.

[Nautilus Blue]

On 25 June 2004, Airservices Australia gave an indemnity to present, past and future directors and officers of the corporation on certain terms and conditions in relation to claims arising in connection with them being a director or officer of Airservices Australia. This indemnity continues in force.


Is this normal in other organisations? Can I please have indemnity insurance in case I'm incompetent/not paying attention/asleep at the wheel?

NB

[BeGoneTFN]

Does anyone believe that one extra shift a fortnight or nearly one whole extra month i.e 26 days a year constitutes a reasonable amount of overtime. Perhaps it should be renamed forced-time as we all can expect to be press ganged into compliance.

I appreciate that the current EBA doesn't clarify what reasonable o/t is exactly, however its one thing to state that this might be 1 shift every two weeks when the place is staffed properly. Its another proposition completely when the place is on the bones of its arse and you are expected to show one extra shift every two weeks for the next 5 years or until management finally gets sacked and some rebuilding takes place. :D

Perhaps this is what ASA are on about when they talk about staff turnover every 5 years, they will run you into the ground with overtime at which point you will be begging to get out.

This to me does not look to good in terms of work/life balance.

I am curious to know how much extra overtime the bean counters in the AWB are compelled to undertake.

I would also be interested to know if any other safety critical workplace would expect such an enormous amount of O/T undertaken on an involuntary basis?


BgTFN

[Fly_by_wire]

someone needs to post up the video again, that was some of the funniest stuff I have seen in a while!!!! :D

[Sunfish]

NB:



Quote:
On 25 June 2004, Airservices Australia gave an indemnity to present, past and future directors and officers of the corporation on certain terms and conditions in relation to claims arising in connection with them being a director or officer of Airservices Australia. This indemnity continues in force.

Is this normal in other organisations? Can I please have indemnity insurance in case I'm incompetent/not paying attention/asleep at the wheel?

Yes it's normal practice - called Directors and Officers Indemnity Insurance. No sane person would ever become a Director or company officer (eg: Company Secretary, Finance Manager, CEO) without such insurance. It covers you against legal costs of being sued over actions you may have taken in good faith.

It doesn't protect you if it can be shown that you have been a lying weasel, either lying to your insurer (there is a requirement for complete disclosure of your circumstances) or lying to your fellow Officers or Directors or someone else.

[Maggott17]

At least one of the ATC managers that had a direct hand in today's staffing problems has been shown the door.
It may be old news but the tall, deep voiced toe-cutter that decimated the ATC college, effectively creating ANSA'a inability to train enough controllers, and then went on to decimate AIS, has been cut lose from ANSA and is on the prowl for more poor unfortunates at Melbourne Airport.

[Quokka]

karma.... :D

[Louis Cypher]

At least one of the ATC managers that had a direct hand in today's staffing problems has been shown the door.

yes, old news, and it was a voluntary departure, before any 'shown the door'

[Slugfest]

Airservices Australia slams 'covert industrial campaign'

The head of Airservices Australia has hit out at what he describes as unofficial work bans by air traffic controllers in Sydney.

A senate estimates hearing has been told air traffic controllers have an organised campaign where they refuse to fill shift vacancies caused by staff calling in sick.

Airservices Australia's Greg Russell says it has caused major air traffic delays around the country.

He has told the hearing a small number of controllers are conducting a covert industrial campaign.

"Our ability to maintain high service levels to the industry is being damaged by the actions of a small number of our air traffic controllers conducting unauthorised industrial action to support their wages claim," he said.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/21/2397525.htm?section=justin (http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/10/21/2397525.htm?section=justin)




My thoughts:

Bit of a strange organisation (and I use the term “organisation” loosely) that can be held to ransom by such an allegedly small number of people.

P/Poor workforce planning since July 2005 perhaps????:confused:

I don’t know about wages claim… more like a claim that the rosters are beyond thread-bare.:*

I can only hope that the Airservices gurus who won a national project management award for the tower simulator can now turn their hands to recruitment and training.:rolleyes:

Or is that asking tooo much.:ugh:

[missy]

Slugfest asks:
Or is that asking tooo much

Yep, way toooo much.

[BeGoneTFN]

Looks like someones getting even more desperate, its actually a little boring now!

The alleged problem is not just in SY, its nation wide, its called "a CRITICAL staffing shortage" and was caused by only one person.

Be gone TFN, for the love of god be gone.

[Here to Help]

I wrote the following in this thread (http://www.pprune.org/d-g-general-aviation-questions/347712-brisbane-centre-tiba.html) which has been moved, but thought it worth repeating here.


Just saw this Notam seems yet another staff shortage.

The staff shortage is always there, just not always visible to industry.

Civil Air (the air traffic controller's Association) maintains a log on their site of all NOTAMed TIBAs, tower closures, and delays due staff shortage (see Civil Air Australia - Home (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php)).

The NOTAMs indicate when there where none (TIBA), or not enough controllers (delays) to run the airspace or tower. When delays are NOTAMed, it can sometimes mean that there is only one controller on duty, and if they require a break (to go to the toilet for example) then they have to leave the console unmanned during a "short break procedure". The delay NOTAMs can also indicate that the controller you are speaking to is running more airspace than normally acceptable. What is not shown in NOTAMs is how many times controllers have come in on days off to cover the day to day operations.

The NOTAMs really only are the tip of the iceberg. Airspace/tower staffing is the last thing to give in the system, with resources being drained from other important areas to keep things running. The continued staff shortages mean that there are not enough ATC staff to do some of the other duties they perform away from the coal face. Training and procedures for example.

Training has particularly suffered. Indeed it was one of the first things to be cut when Greg Russell (current Airservices Australia CEO) arrived in 2005, in order to maximise profits.

No simulator refresher training has taken place for Inflight Emergencies or system failures for controllers in the last 2-3 years. There are controllers who have not done simulator refresher training in their career. Imagine if that was an airline pilot without that training.

[ferris]

"Our ability to maintain high service levels to the industry is being damaged by the actions of a small number of our air traffic controllers conducting unauthorised industrial action to support their wages claim," he said.


The only way this statement can be true is if he is saying that he and senior managers are the ATCs in question. It is my understanding that he is not an ATC. Isnt there some sort of penalty for lying to senate estimates? I mean penalties beyond getting fired from your $million salaried position for lying to your boss- criminal charges perhaps? Civil litigation by the actual ATCs for slander? There has to be some sort of penalty for telling "professional" lies. BTW, I have absolutely NO COMPUNCTION describing the CEO of AsA as a LIAR when the ATCs are currently in the IRC arguing over what the definition of "reasonable overtime" is because they are just so sick of running the place short-staffed, when groups of 17 controllers have their monthly rosters published with 30 shifts that will need to be covered with overtime BEFORE ANY UNPLANNED ABSENCE, when he, himself, has told the estimates that he didnt know of the staff shortage until he took over 3 YEARS AGO and found out there was no staff/manpower planning, but has a plan now (exactly what? would've been a good question) etc.etc. I am quite comfortable that the term fits. A senior manager was recently before senate estimates admitting that there was an over-reliance on overtime. Now TFN is before them telling them it's actually an industrial campaign? How stupid are the senators if they allow guys like him to LIE to them?

[Sunfish]

I try not to comment on things I know absolutely nothing about, but I have to say I find Mr. Russell's comments, if correctly reported by the ABC, distasteful.

To an outsider, certain practices and procedures to do with aircraft design, construction, maintenance, piloting and air traffic control appear archaic and inefficient or both.

To an outsider, these scream out for "modernisation" via the application of the latest management fad of the day or a large helping of computer technology, or both. I was guilty of this myself when very, very, young (thank you for curing me Capt. Kelynack and others).

....And eventually these efforts always fail because they are always based on a faulty appreciation of the core strategic competences required to do the job, or in other words what really matters

It appears to me that a number of institutions in Australia, starting with Airservices and large chunks of Qantas, are suffering from management with this faulty appreciation of what really matters.

I would like to think the situation can be corrected without loss of life, but of course "The Gods Of The Copybook Headings" are sitting patiently waiting to teach us the horrible basic lessons once again.

[PlankBlender]

Where is the union, refuting these claims and informing the public about the real reasons of the shortage (i.e. 20+% decrease in operational controllers)???

Is the fact that ASA now claim the union has nothing to do with the "renegades" a pointer to an "understanding" they have come to not to engage in open battle? :=

[Here to Help]

Plank Bender,
The link in my post above didn't work - see here: Civil Air Australia - Home (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php)

In attempting to increase public awareness and to refute some of the claims, the site has the following:

Civil Air Australia - Q&A with The President (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=437&Itemid=437)

Civil Air Australia - Airspace (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=10&id=42&Itemid=223)

Civil Air Australia - Latest Video (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=609&Itemid=248)

Civil Air Australia - Media Release (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=1&id=37&Itemid=218)

Civil Air Australia - How Many Controllers? (http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=552&Itemid=552)


It is interesting to note that while Greg Russell (aka "TFN" on this forum) has stated in Senate Estimates that the closures/delays are due to a renegade few controllers, and not associated with the Civil Air union, ASA has taken Civil Air to the IRC accusing it of industrial action. Interestingly, the fact that Civil Air's website contains info on the airspace closures and links to media stories has been cited as one of the "proofs" of this supposed industrial action. I guess they don't want some things known to the public.

[max1]

The GM of ATC (JH)has stated,on productivity, that in the last 8 years traffic at the 26 CONTROLLED aerodromes has only increased by a total of 1000 movements. From 3.109 million to 3.110 million, and that controller numbers have decreased from 1022 to 900 ( about 750 operational actually, because anyone still holding an ATC license is counted whether they talk to planes or are on 'projects', moved into management, are on Leave Without Pay, Maternity Leave, long term sick leave,etc.

The decline of GA and increase in RPT are not mentioned in his productivity figures. Wouldn't want to ruin a good argument. ASA take great joy in trumpeting their yearly reductions in navcharges. In 04/05 Annual Report the Chairman, Nick Burton-Taylor states that in the last ten years traffic has grown 49% and navcharges have been reduced 30%.This period includes 911, SARs,and the Brisbane Lions triple premiership.

In the 06/07 Annual Report (no sign of 07/08 yet?) TFN proudly boasts of 'the more than 4 million movements' that ASA ( the controllers) look after. In this report ASAs Airways revenue for THIS ONE YEAR was some $108 million more than 99/00(06/07 Airways Revenue was $676.7 million). Over the 8 years it is several hundreds of millions of dollars. What of the the over 900 000 that the GM wishes to remain hidden?

The GM of ATC is trying to use his rubbery figures to convince us that we are only moving an extra 1000 movements a year across Australia compared to 99/00. To put it in to perspective that is about one extra take-off OR landing A WEEK at the 26 controlled aerodromes, or if it is only the five major capitals 4 extra movements a week compared to 8 years ago.

BILLIONS have been/are being spent by Airports on runways, terminals and infrastructure. Why? When according to the Head of ATC nothing has been happening in Aviation. There are no jets into regional aerodromes, there is no Avalon, there is no mining activity in the West, Newcastle and Darwin don't exist (RAAF), there are no overflyers. Therefore there must be no extra delays into the major capital cities. No Virgin Blue, no Jetstar (we did lose Ansett), no Emirates or extra International Operators.

For the Aviators and readers out there, this is what emanates from the Alan Woods Building in Canberra.

If you are looking for your bonus in Canberra you can quote the reduction in controller numbers (big tick for bonus), the huge increase in revenue ( more brilliant management), bugger all change in movements ( see airlines haven't expanded at all, it must be management), we have reduced Airways Charges and still deliver a big profit. Hand out for huge bonus please.

The worst thing is I think those in BS Castle actually believe their own spin, and the Board are suitably enthralled. There are lies, damned lies and statistics. There are a lot of good people working at ASA, who work together to try and deliver a good service. The controllers couldn't do what we do without them. However ASA should remember that over 90% of revenue is brought in by 25% of their workforce. Last one out, please turn off the lights.

[Adamastor]

Sydney controllers are the ones being panned by Greg Russell at the moment. How about we have another look at the real numbers?

http://www.civilair.asn.au/joomla/images/stories/sy_atc_prod.jpg

[Adamastor]

After a six month delay, Airservices have today released their Certified Agreement "offer."

Without entering into the offensiveness to the few remaining staff of their proposal, there is not one single item in it which suggests their attitude has changed to the current staffing crisis, or that they will attempt to find a solution. On the contrary, it looks as though further cuts are on the cards, which in turn will see more impositions put on the poor long-suffering customers. :{

This is going to get a whole lot uglier.

[somniferous]

Any details on the "offer"?

[Fly_by_wire]

God save the Queen because nothing will save ASA :(

[max1]

Somniferous,
If you are an ATC get on the Association website. But first put anything away near you that you don't want to get broken.