Merged: Tiger Tales

[galdian]

Having not posted for a while and looking at the posts - back into the frey!

IMHO Tiger have now been going long enough, and slowly expanding in response to the economic reality (ayone out there honestly want to tell me, 18 months ago, they could see the QF group cutting services as they have and talking about..gulp..pilot redundencies?? Anyone??) Hmmm :suspect: to suggest there is no reason they are not here to stay.

So at the same time Tiger are NOT expanding as quickly due to the economic realities (whilst QF are heading in the same direction by reducing services) but QF is ok and Tiger have stuffed it up?? :ugh:

Anyone want to say QF handle "recovery" any better than any other airline please refer to Perth this am, you mean no-one had the forsight to see yet ANOTHER Perth f**kup, you mean there were no spare aircraft/crews in non curfew airports (SY is NOT the centre of the universe to anyone in management who has any concept of "big picture") to keep things moving?? QF no longer have reserve crews??
(In fairness the report of the pax who spent $28,000 to take the family to Buller - who in their right mind would spend that money and not guarentee better snow at Thredbo or similar; Perth ****** or Perth ****** travel consultant-discuss!)

Sorry but unusually I appear to have digressed.

Tiger have some great people flying for them, their CP is one I would personally fly to the end of the earth with (some other management types from the past I would prefer not to walk to the end of the termainal with, maybe just me??)
Management and pilots will NEVER meld - just think dysfunctional families syndrome - just ask pornstar pilots who have been transferred/demoted/promised to be CP of the whole universe etc etc...and sadly these promises may not have actually been followed through by pornstar management; strange , that!;)

Tiger have established - and now they will grow...IMHO

Cheers all
galdian

[Glasgow_Flyer]

Mostly - your good authority was spot on!

Flight was delayed for about 28 hours but this turned out to be one of the best journey's I have ever been on - the flight crew were out of this world - truly truly awesome!

Everyone was looked after throughout - none of that having to sleep on airport benches, plenty of refreshments and lots of information - a real tribute to Tiger.

[PUSSYPOWER]

Hi Shelley long time no hear:ok: is it really true you bring the xtra planes or are you just telling people **** again.:eek: really the way to say you stuffed up with the perth flight is to just say it. not look at what qantas did they actual went to perth and only upset 168 on the return:D by the way whats happened to our OTP or that like your managment rating with the staff, anymore letters to staff saying the probloem is them:{, as for CP you should follow his lead, he knows what the hell is going on unlike you:8 its the best way to improve staff is you leave.:D:D

[A. Le Rhone]

62 years of age Pussypower and that's the best you can do?

[Skybus_319]

galdian. What bull****.

So at the same time Tiger are NOT expanding as quickly due to the economic realities
How many times do you quote "Economic Downturn benefiting our business", "people are looking for cheaper alternatives"..never will forget the one "People are parking porcches outside T4":ugh:, yet pax numbers are miserable, especially ex Adelaide. So what happens when the Government $$ runs out...just pull another Jetstar and bail out on SA?

Anyone want to say QF handle "recovery" any better than any other airline please refer to Perth this am
Well they handle it better than you do.

[galdian]

319your misconception - I don't work for Tiger, I'm just an outsider looking at what's going on - and I still reckon they've establishd enough to exist and grow.You disagree - traumatic though it is I'll learn to live with it. BTW I fully agree about one thing - does seem the big boss is taking her time to understand the airline game and occasionally resorts to thinking tasers are a good way to motivate morale. I would tend to disagree!

[tiptoeturkey]

CAN YOU SMELL IT

From November Tiger are planning almost 200 services a week from their Adelaide and Melbourne bases to Sydney.

Big time catpiss.
Smells like the history of one of their co-owners.
Ryanair - Book Cheap Flights to Europe - Cheap Flights from the UK (http://www.ryanair.com)

[Mr. Hat]

I reckon I could fit in alright at Tiger. Sounds like a very familar scenario!

[kowlaski]

Trimwheel, I regret to inform you but what you have written is somewhat far from the truth, there is no denying that Tiger has gone through a learning curve but from what I know from those inside, alot of the issues of a start up airline have been ironed out, the place is expanding, new aircraft are arriving, and network is growing, your comments regarding inexperienced pilots flying together is completely untrue also is your comment regarding cabin crew screening, yes everyone works hard but that is airlines world-wide, the day of the legacy carrier is over and no airlines can afford less than to utilse their workforce within the safe and legal boundaries. The Dispatch staff are on a structured shift pattern, which, again as with all other Distapch/Operations departments WORLDWIDE, would ask on occasion to work an extra shift here and there, with consumate renumeration. Please get your facts right prior to launching into your complete diatribe....what happened did they reject your resume or something........

[Skybus_319]

kowlaski, you know nothing...end of story.

[Bob Morane]

I think they also rejected Skybus 319 Resume:}

[squidward]

You've gotta wonder what Trimwheel's motivation is in posting dribble like that... :yuk: Sounds like a case of sour grapes to me.

Historically, there may have been an element of truth to some of those points, but many of the other claims are way off the mark. :=

Tiger is getting bigger by the day, and things are changing for the better. Kowlaski seems much closer to the truth...

[Kev9]

Skytoss 319
People like you (note previous posts:ok: put you on the bottom of many wannabee tossers who speak total ****e on this bb) are crap... end off story. Can't wait for another post from you.
That big post is from a person who recently left the Tiger LCC department...sour grapes. Sorry it didn't work for him.

[kowlaski]

Skybus, I am not a total fountain of knowledge but I know the FACTS.....try learning them before questioning......:bored:

[Sunstar320]

Seems someone doesn't want to come clean....
Tiger's Canberra routes up in the airTiger Airways is doing little to quell mounting speculation it is quitting Canberra.The budget airline said in a statement yesterday, after refusing to answer questions about the future of its Canberra services, that it continued to liaise with Canberra Airport.
''No decisions have been made yet on the Canberra schedule from early October. Tiger Airways continually reviews its network and service and works hard to meet the needs of its customers,'' it said.
''It's not that we're avoiding breaking bad news. We hope to be in a position to finalise the Canberra schedule for the October 2009-March 2010 period soon.'' It said the airline employed ''around 18'' people in Canberra.
When Tiger's high-profile managing director Shelley Roberts was contacted for comment yesterday, she said she was in the United States and ''out of the loop'' on what was happening with the Canberra services.

High Profile Managing Director?? LOL!:mad:

[tiptoeturkey]

Maybe aircraft No. 8 from December.
And it might be based in ADL.
And possibly a base at Avalon to scrap it out with Jetstar. That should make a few crew happy...:mad:

[fritzandsauce]

Are they still flying between Adelaide and Perth???

Can't seem to see any flights :confused:

[Sunstar320]

Are they still flying between Adelaide and Perth???

Can't seem to see any flights http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gifI dare say when Bus #8 arrives early next year they might have a shot at a daylight service instead of a overnight service which failed..

also wouldn't cease to amaze my if this new A320 sits on the apron at ADL for half the day like the other few did.

[Keg]

Ignorance summed up in one neat quote

... airlines can afford less than to utilse their workforce within the safe and legal boundaries.

You do realise that there is a significant difference between what is legal and what is safe? Just because something is legal does not mean it's safe.

[HOBAY 3]

Maybe aircraft No. 8 from December.
And it might be based in ADL.
And possibly a base at Avalon to scrap it out with Jetstar. That should make a few crew happy...

Another forum mentions rumoured ADL-CNS and ADL-PER (daylight) services with the new aircraft with a gap yet to be filled in the schedule. Would they consider either a triangular ADL-OOL-HBA-ADL or a W shape ADL-OOL-HBA-OOL-ADL with a bit of shifting in the existing schedule?

There is just no where near enough HBA-QLD capacity at the moment with DJ only operating the E90 once daily on HBA-BNE, and JQ four weekly on the LST-BNE. At its peak we had DJ and JQ on HBA-BNE with 737/320 (DJ sometimes twice daily too), plus DJ on LST-BNE with the E70 on top of JQ four weekly LST-BNE. Then JQ moved to the "midnight schedule" and it died. At the start of the GFC, DJ cut the LST-BNE, dropped the second HBA-BNE and downgraded the other HBA-BNE from 73H to E90 despite the fact that since the start of the GFC, HBA airport is the 2nd fastest growing in Australia.

[Sunstar320]

ADL-OOL-HBA-OOL-ADL
And wouldn't crew be happy to see this on their duty sheet. Bloody long day...

Mabye...
ADL-SYD-MCY-SYD-ADL
ADL-OOL-SYD-OOL-ADL

But its arriving in time for dead season, and aint Tiger good at filling seats in Feb:{

[HOBAY 3]

Yes, I suppose it would be 11 hours or more! :=

But the triangular ADL-OOL-HBA-ADL would be acceptable. As the ADL-OOL currently departs first thing anyway, they could for example on Mon,Wed,Fri,Sun operate the above triangular service instead of the current ADL-OOL-ADL-HBA-ADL rotation. The new aircraft could then operate the ADL-HBA-OOL-ADL direction. Then, on Tue,Thu,Sat the current aircraft could simply operate ADL-OOL-ADL-ASP-ADL as it does now. Throw in some ADL-PER (daily afternoon operated by new aircraft), ADL-CNS (Tue,Thu,Sat flown by the new aircraft instead of ADL-HBA-OOL-ADL) and you have a full schedule! :ok:

[Watchdog]

Just reading that you guys are doing 5 sectors a day makes me squirm.

Guess I am getting soft in my old age!

Are you shattered after a day like that or able to front up next day for more of the same?

[apacau]

Tiger have just announced up to 3x daily MEL-BNE flights from March 2010.

[tourismman]

ADL-BNE daily from end march confirmed.

[MrSheffield]

New base to be announced shortly, probably more routes too with the next aircraft going to Adelaide, probably ADL/PER daytime?

apparently lots of interviewing / upgrading and lots more to come in 2010 :D

[Sunstar320]

New base to be announced shortly,
Now third time round its just gotta be OOL

[Watchdog]

OOL!.... were do I sign? :D

[Metro man]

Singapore - Hong Kong route starts Feb next year. :ok:

[apacau]

I believe BNE-ROK-BNE will also operate daily with the aircraft doing ADL-BNE-ADL

[tiger_insider]

No staff travel with Singapore Airlines.

Staff travel with Tiger Airways including Asia.

No strict seniority.

Approx 70 pilots.

Approx 30 TOTAL aircraft by in Australia by 2014. Currently 7 in Australia.

Monthly rosters.

Minimum 10 OFF per month.

F/Os currently 90hrs per month stick, 120+ duty

[Duck Dogers]

Hello chappies and chapettes.

Are there any Tiger pilots who can tell me about the interview process ie what to expect, questions etc.

Please PM me. :ok:

The Duck

[DU7532]

I would also appreciate any info on the interview process.

PM me if more convenient.

Thanks!!

[Mr. Hat]

You do realise that there is a significant difference between what is legal and what is safe? Just because something is legal does not mean it's safe.

One of the better statements I've seen on pprune in a while. And Keg what a struggle it is to work where everything, absolutely everything is based on the bare minimum legal requirement. (Not claiming this against Tiger just places I've worked).

The guys at Tiger are negotiating an EBA correct? I'm interested to hear the outcome. The second wave of the pilot exoudus is looming in many an organisation with pilots dusting off CV's. Will Tiger be a popular destination after the EBA goes thru?

[Go-Cat]

I was wondering what Tiger interview format was like, the styles of question were like, and how long it took?

And finally the technical exam is it more alight to the type of aircraft you flying or more on the IFR rules and procedures?


PM me if more convenient


Thanks in advance

[Tiger01]

ROK - BNE now confirmed, although its still not in the booking engine despite being advertised on the homepage for $38

[Sunstar320]

Looking at these new schedules shows a whopping 1 Daily MEL-OOL after March 27. In other words are they nuts? Just plain suicide coming from the 3 minimum sectors at the moment. Such a lucrative route, is Shelley under pressure to pull a profit heh? Cmon, hitting Sydney ten times a day, now BNE?

Chasing all these high yield routes just backfires in the end, just look at their Melbourne to Sydney route, now doing quite badly.

Clearly she is still lost in this market.

[apacau]

Sunstar, did it occur to you that not all the schedules are loaded? Presumably the schedules for the other 2x daily services aren't yet in the system. That's the only explanation I have, anyway.

9 daily MEL-SYD was never going to work, as their business model simply doesn't require the frequency aspect (after all, how many Ryanair/Easyjet routes are served 9x daily?). 4-5 daily might be about right IMO, and it seems that's the way they're heading anyway.

[Sunstar320]

Darwinism, what facts are we talking about here?

The facts lie amongst the dredfull pax figures now flying this route. Instead of racking up unbelievable cancellation statistics, they are just "adjusting" the schedule from 9 flights down to 3 per day during the week. Tiger's sydney ops started of well, and appear to be coping at the 9 Daily that was quickly introduced, loads seem to be sustainable in the long run. Soon as J* hit the scene numbers are awful and schedules have been significantly adjusted. Yet no indication of Tiger marketing this route anywhere.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Maybe Sunstar320 can tell you when the next one's going back! :ok:

[DrPepz]

Tiger losses take chunk out of its parent's finances
MATT O'SULLIVAN
November 17, 2009
THE parent of the Australian low-cost airline Tiger Airways lost about $S28 million ($22 million) for the year to March, a sharp reversal on the previous 12 months, when it posted a $S10 million profit.

The result for the Singapore Airlines-backed Tiger Aviation indicates its Australian operations are still suffering large losses as it tries to establish a position in the domestic aviation market.

Tiger Aviation is the parent of Singapore's Tiger Airways and Tiger Airways Australia.

The privately owned airline is yet to lodge its annual accounts with Singaporean regulators but it has emerged that Singapore Airlines' share of Tiger's cumulative losses increased by $S14 million, or 44 per cent, to $S45 million for the year to March 31. Given it owns 49 per cent of the low-cost airline, Tiger lost an estimated $S28.4 million for the period.

Yesterday Singapore Airlines dismissed speculation that it had injected more capital into Tiger Aviation. But the biggest shareholder said it had stopped accounting for its share of further red ink at Tiger after accumulated losses exceeded its cash contribution of $S39.2 million.

More at:
Tiger losses take chunk out of its parent's finances (http://www.smh.com.au/business/tiger-losses-take-chunk-out-of-its-parents-finances-20091116-ii99.html)

Quite surprised that no one has posted that yet!

Anyone can someone please work out the maths for the part I had in bold? It doesn't seem to add up.

[Muff Hunter]

is that the fat lady I hear warming up????????:E

[otto the grot]

Don't get too excited Muff.

When figures are released, you'll most probably find that Oz ops are doing very well and propping up the Sing ops.

Put it this way, if TT oz can't make money while running on the smell of an oily rag, along with bottom dwelling employment conditions, then the likes of JQ and VB have no hope.

[KABOY]

Muff Hunter you better take a lesson in Chinese culture, while QF has Jetstar in Singapore and the Singaporeans are locked out of any international expansion from Australia they will always be a thorn in the side of QF.

It's all about loss of face my friend and while they have deep pockets they will continue to fund it.

It's all too easy, as they will transfer capital around asia in order for the accounts to look good.

[DrPepz]

KABOY - a bit naive to think that SIA has the time and resources to sit around and burn money on TR just to "look good" and "save face". Singapore is not China and the culture here is by no means "Chinese".

Next, TR is not a subsidiary of SIA. 51% is owned by other shareholders, so SIA cannot unanimously make decisions on what to do with TR.

[Muff Hunter]

otto are you on drugs???

there is no way that tgr oz are making money with 6 a/c at the prices they charge for tickets!

you'll find that it's the other way around with tgr sing making the cash and tgr oz pissing it up against the wall.

[otto the grot]

It's 7 aircraft Muff and if you think TT sell every seat at the cheapo prices, then maybe the drugs you're on aren't working.:hmm:

[waren9]

or maybe they are????

[Going Boeing]

THE parent of the Australian low-cost airline Tiger Airways lost about $S28 million ($22 million) for the year to March, a sharp reversal on the previous 12 months, when it posted a $S10 million profit.

The result for the Singapore Airlines-backed Tiger Aviation indicates its Australian operations are still suffering large losses as it tries to establish a position in the domestic aviation market.

Tiger Aviation is the parent of Singapore's Tiger Airways and Tiger Airways Australia.

The privately owned airline is yet to lodge its annual accounts with Singaporean regulators but it has emerged that Singapore Airlines' share of Tiger's cumulative losses increased by $S14 million, or 44 per cent, to $S45 million for the year to March 31. Given it owns 49 per cent of the low-cost airline, Tiger lost an estimated $S28.4 million for the period.

Yesterday Singapore Airlines dismissed speculation that it had injected more capital into Tiger Aviation. But the biggest shareholder said it had stopped accounting for its share of further red ink at Tiger after accumulated losses exceeded its cash contribution of $S39.2 million.

Tiger Airways Australia did not respond to questions yesterday about its performance, saying only that it would be ''announcing our results shortly''.

The parent's Singapore-based chief executive, Tony Davis, has been upbeat about the airline's performance in Australia, but recently conceded it was still losing money. Tiger's only operation outside Singapore is in Australia.

In February Tiger, Australia's fourth-biggest airline brand, belatedly released its accounts for the year to March 31, 2008, which showed it ran up losses of $20 million. The figure included $7.9 million in start-up costs in Australia.

Tiger has recently shifted in its focus towards high-traffic routes, after a strategy of stimulating regional routes when it launched in Australia two years ago.

In July it signalled its intention to challenge Qantas, Jetstar and Virgin Blue when it began services on the country's busiest route, between Sydney and Melbourne. Since then it has announced services between Sydney and the Gold Coast - the fifth busiest route in Australia - and Melbourne and Brisbane.

However, industry insiders have been sceptical of Tiger's ability to service 18 routes in Australia with just seven Airbus A320 aircraft. An eighth is not due until early next year.

Tiger Aviation's other main shareholders are the private equity firm Indigo Partners and the Ryan family of Ireland, responsible for setting up Europe's largest airline, Ryanair.

[Muff Hunter]

aplogies otto, having that 1 extra a/c would make all the difference!!!

and the $80(premium fare) compared to the $39(cheap fare) would surely see them raking in the big ones!!

how could i've been so blind!......must be the drugs!!

[alangirvan]

So how much has Tiger lost playing around in the Australian backyard? Probably not as much as the Qantas group will have to write off if they are forced to walk away from Jetstar Pacific. If they do walk away, I do not think Tiger will be rushing in to take their place.

[Whiskery]

If they do not start making money, I reckon Tiger (Oz) will be out of business before the end of the financial year. (30th June 2010) !

Despite comment to the contrary, SQ do not like losing money and they may have a bottomless pit, but they will never throw good after bad!

[Kev9]

'I reackon this, I reaykon that, you so dumb...

The recipe is Pure RyanAir and the cook is SIA.

Now that is really dumb, aye bro...

This operation is 2 years old in AU and their loads are amazing.
To use a drug analogy, they have now hooked their users.
They will double their fleet, AGAIN, in the next 12 months in AU.
Again, read the RyanAir mantra... but you too dumb bro...

[Muff Hunter]

kev9,

you miss the point here.......EU is alot bigger than oz, with many more places to fly (can sustain a ryan air concept) while oz is at the point of market saturation.

Tiger could get another 30a/c but at the current ticket price would make fark all.

History tells us their has only ever been room for 2 maybe 3 carriers.

[Going Boeing]

Kev9
and their loads are amazing

Loads don't mean a thing to an airline surviving - the yield has to be high enough to pay all the bills.

[Al E. Vator]

Muff Hunter - for goodness sake who are you trying to convice? Yourself perhaps?

For years I have watched as the armchair PPRUne experts gave their judgements about everything. "The new Virgin Blue will never last". No legacy carrier has ever created a low-cost and succeeded, so "Jetstar is doomed to fail".

So when you dish out expert comment such as 'there is no way Tiger can make money with those airfares' etc are you fully informed of their yeild management systems and their cost/benefit programme or are you just noise?
"History tells us there is room for 2 or maybe 3 carriers". What history - the 18 years since deregulation? Hardly a statistically significant period? In any case that's what there is right now! QF/JQ, VS and Tiger.

Tiger is backed by Singapore Airlines (who have an issue with saving face and teaching the Australian Government a lesson for restricting them from geater access to the Australian market) as well as the folks behind Ryaniar; whilst they might be unpleasant individuals clearly know a thing or two about running low-cost airlines.

The major point is there are lots of negativity peddlars and naysayers on this website (usually those naieve enough to form some bond with a different corporate entity), who take delight in knocking new players.

Invariably they have been wrong about the potential of a new airline. Invariably they never admit it.

[Sunstar320]

SQ might have deep pockets, but they are not injecting anymore capital into Tiger. SQ are not going to keep flogging a dead horse, and since Tiger have pushed past -40million, no more money for Tiger they say. Going public is the only chance Tiger has to fund the next 50+ A320's that need to be financed within the next 3-4yrs.

there is no way that tgr oz are making money with 6 a/c at the prices they charge for tickets!
You think that every seat is sold sub $50? Sure, mabye on some dead days like Tue/Wed there is a greater availability of these, but its not easy to grab a $40 fare the rest of the week. Dont forget about Baggage/Seat/Oversize/Sports/CreditCard fees. As well as Ancillary revenue such as Buy on Board and Travel Insurance. Plenty of ways for Tiger to earn revenue besides the $39 fares. Tiger also get signifcantly more incentives than the others, particulary from the Adelaide Government who are paying Tiger to be there. Plus I heard that they got a good deal from Tulla and Brumby. See how they operate behind the scenes in comparison to other LCC and you get the drift of how low their cost base is.

Al E. Vator, Kev9..dont worry, Muff is just one of those 15 year old kids who just happens knows everything bout' the industry. . . :ugh:

[Muff Hunter]

i hope i am wrong......................but we'll revist this in 12 months or so and you'll all find that i'm right..............again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darwinism]

I'm often tempted to give up on PPrune, tired of the uninformed drivel/speculation that often passes for posts here. Then someone like AI E. Vator or Sunstar320 post an intelligent message that makes me believe that, yes, there are still some who actually make this site worth coming back to - thank you.

[Metro man]

Tiger are currently looking at an Initial Public Offering of US$500 million
Tiger Airways Mulls IPO Next Year - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704204304574545201274761612.html)

Should be enough to finance a bit of expansion and keep them going for a while.

[3 Holer]

I can't see Mum & Dad investors or Institutions throwing their hard earned into Tiger. A foreign Company with an abysmal PR department and no prospect of reasonable dividends.

Let's face it, VB hasn't returned a reasonable dividend since November 05 and they are now very well established. Interest rates going up, why would you invest in Airline stock?

I may be wrong.

[slice]

hmmm... yes they're mulling over it. As in

Tiger board CEO: "Oh F**K we're gonna need $500 mil to get through next year"

Tiger board member: "Hey I know, let's have one of those IPO thingy's to see how much cash we can pull in from the suckers!":}

[Transition Layer]

3 Holer,

A foreign Company with an abysmal PR department and no prospect of reasonable dividends.

I think you'll find the listing would on the Singapore Stock Exchange, not Australia.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

So they have been here nearly two years and still no profit, lets not forget we had a major downturn thrown in. It looks to me like they have taken a measured approach to any expansion in OZ and lets face it, they basically have no chance of being in the black until more aircraft arrive.

It all comes down to how long are they are willing to hang on. On the other hand what would be the impact on SIA and RA should they decide to can it here? Where would that leave them and can they really afford to lose this one in the big picture?

SN

[MrSheffield]

I don't see Tiger canning their oz operation...

They do sell the cheapest airfares in Australia and this is catching on quite quickly despite the negative publicity they seem to attract. I recall Jetstar copping the same flak when they first started. The truth is that their load factors are quite high so this must be a positive, im sure the beancounters set the airfares just high enough to ensure +ve yield. They did state from the very beginning that they dont expect to make profit for for a few years, but have stated that the Australian operation is ahead of where it was supposed to be. This could be a lie but have to look at the facts and that is they have survived 2 years and are growing. They started 2 years ago downunder with 3 aircraft and 1 base. Now its 7 aircraft (+ 1 to come in Jan and rumors of 30 by the next 5 years) and 2 bases (3rd coming soon?), adding Brisbane to the network, and opening up routes to destinations originating not from MEL/ADL (SYD-OOL, BNE-ROK) so they continued to grow despite the GFC or whatever its called.

I remember 2 years ago we were giving them a lifespan of 6 months...

[Sunstar320]

There is no doubt that Tiger Australia is improving financially. Tiger were losing $10 million a month when they started in November 2009 for their first 4 months of operating here, which would have sent them to the wall if that continued (Tiger Singapore was profitable during this period), and with only 3 Aircraft during this period it seemed a disaster. This previous year shows a loss of around $2 million per month and considering they have bedded down their operations now. Putting into consideration extreme fuel prices, low demand in some months, I wouldn't think Tiger Australia would be fully responsible for that $22m loss, as those fuel prices would have hit harder up north when putting their network into the picture and the amount of longer haul flights TR does. Low demand seems to impacting harder up there, and Tiger Singapore has reduced alot of flights and pulled out of a few places whilst still retreating some of their Malaysian routes (AirAsia is doing the same too). But TR has been proven as significantly profitable considering their first ever profit managed to hit SG$40million.

Since then 8 months has passed and you could say they have doubled in size, Sydney has started, a new base has commenced, extra frequencies everywhere, shocking TV show showing their brand, more advertising, another A320 has landed in Melbourne, and Sheffield said their brand is growing and loads are growing. Chopping some low pax routes from Adelaide is a good start, looks like the Melbourne to Rockhampton service is gone, and Canberra looks as finished come next year. Getting rid of these in the short term will help acheive a profit sooner, returning to these ports when the brand is profitable and expanded in a few years would be more logical. I dont know if they are just in Canberra for strategic reasons, but they are to small to be sending their aircraft here, and the market is not great from Adelaide and Melbourne is also quite slow at times it has seemed. Adelaide to Hobart is another melon, released figures show its average loading is just less than 60%. They would be giving Virgin a headache in Adelaide. Killed them to Hobart, doing the same to Canberra, and to the Gold coast which was downgraded to E190 and is commonly canceled. All of a sudden 3 extra ADL-SYD sectors have popped up between JQ/TT which would be affecting DJ's 4/5 Daily more than their Melbourne ops. Yet Tiger now throwing in Brisbane by subsidizing Melbourne to Coolangatta is 1 Daily is suicide. You cannot grow this route to four daily slowly then just retreat one of the countries and Tiger most busiest route. I dont know the logic in this nor if this is the sign of a new Gold Coast base, but it is showing the full 3 Daily on weekends so I am skeptical about anymore additions.

Im no financial guru, but we might see a small profit from Tiger Australia for this current March09/March10 year. Otherwise it would be a smaller loss, possibly a loss bigger up north than down south seing fleet numbers are just about level at both. But who knows, they would be losing some significant amounts out of Malaysia and out of Sydney to Melbourne at the moment.

[limelight]

Just view it as a piece of the international puzzle.

Who in their right mind wants to fly Tiger unless they are willing to sacrifice time waiting for the late flight, or worse still, the canceled flight. There is zero business traffic. So, it wil always be a low profit entity while JQ is around.

So, wait for the talks that trade off Tiger AU against Jetstar Asia.

Worse still, a linkup with SQ and QF, now that would be not in anyone's interest, but very plausible.

Scary.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Limelight
I agree, the big picture is what is to be looked at here. I dont think there will be any trade-off between QF,J* and SIA though, no way J* is going to leave Tiger Asia alone, its important to the QF global network. My thinking is that SIA have got a lot to lose if they are not successful with Tiger in Australia, after all it's their J*. If this is the case I don't think Tiger or J* will be a casualty, that job will be left to someone else.

SN

[apacau]

Sunstar - good analysis except that I think the reason for reduced MEL-OOL and no MEL-CBR etc is more due to the fact that they haven't finalised their northern summer timetable than an indication of what is to come. Whilst you can't always believe what they have to say, they have indicated that they are committed to a daily MEL-CBR, for example (though ADL-CBR is gone).

[Sunstar320]

What Tiger really wants its International rights ex Australia, they have stated this in the past. Going public will make this possible. Talking from Perth, Darwin, Cairns. We wont see 30 A320's on Domestic, some will go International within that 5hr radius.

[Gordstar]

Sure are putting the cat among the pigeons,,,,,so to speak....
Now, ADL - CBR gone, well since when or are we talking next year?
No business traffic, well not exactly, I know of at least one businessman who flies TT every week, for the last 5 weeks, and he is not alone.
Bad publicity from the tv show, well some may see it like that, but many I talk to can see that its the stuuuupid punters who look dumb, not the airline,,,,
Interesting days ahead.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

So how much of the airline will need to be Australian owned for them to get the right to conduct international flights?
SN

[MrSheffield]

51%.

As for the Airways programe being a bad idea - how simple minded some people are! Not everyone has tertiery education i guess. I can't be bothered explaining. :ugh: Didnt the number of hits on their website after 1 week of airing sky-rocket?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

So if they need 51% AU ownership how would they go about that, float it or go for a private investor?
SN

[Sunstar320]

Well, clearly they are financially up **** creek :bored:

Tiger battles for a bite

BUDGET carrier Tiger Airways plunged to a $50.1 million loss last year as the Singapore-listed airlines group struggled to take a share of the Australian domestic market. The costs of operating in Australian skies also stripped $S20 million ($15.8 million) from the parent company's reserves, leaving the business with just $S13.2 million in available cash.
The group loss for Tiger Singapore and its cub Tiger Airlines Australia for 2008-09 amounted to $S50.8 million, reversing the previous year's $S9 million profit.
The annual accounts of Tiger Aviation Singapore, filed nine months late, show the company owed more than it owned, with liabilities at the end of March this year exceeding assets by $S109 million.
Group assets, held by both the Singapore and Australian businesses, were valued at $S187 million contrasted by liabilities of $S296 million.
Tiger Airways Singapore declared an operating profit of $S12.2 million, its second consecutive profit and a $3 million improvement on the previous year.
Group president Tony Davis said the Australian business was "negatively impacted by the adverse impact of record oil prices and foreign exchange volatility".
During the period, Tiger launched in Melbourne with three aircraft, opened a second base in Adelaide and incurred a $17 million loss on fuel hedging as jet kerosene prices soared to more than $US170 a barrel.
Revenue rose to $S384 million, an increase of $S74 million at a time when the business incurred a $S15 million rise in staff costs and a foreign exchange loss of $4 million.
Peter Harbison, a leading aviation commentator and head of the Centre for Asia Pacific Aviation in Sydney, said the carrier seemed committed to a long-term view.
Tiger Australia will switch from a holiday route operator to high yield routes. Having launched a Melbourne-Sydney service last July it will soon begin Melbourne-Brisbane flights.
It has also announced a Sydney-Gold Coast service.

[A. Le Rhone]

Sunstar320 - before you get too excited don't forget this was at STARTUP.
Given the fact that the period covers the commencement of the operation and simultaneously the period when oil prices went crazy and the economy was in freefall that was probably an excellent result.

Tiger are now operating not only the marginal ROK and MKY type sectors but also trunk routes and are becoming well established in a far more stable environment. I would suggest that contrary to your delight that the airline is "up **** creek", they are in pretty good shape, particularly when you consider they are backed by SQ and the Ryanair investors.

Funny how I recall the naysayers making similar 'doom' comments about Virgin and Jetstar.

[Sunstar320]

There are no initial startup costs associated with this loss, all these costs were covered before March 2008. The $15 million in staff costs would have been avoided if a certain somebody didnt screw with some staff, hence turnover numbers were extreme.

that contrary to your delight that the airline is "up **** creek"
Not the airline, the figures.

particularly when you consider they are backed by SQ
SQ have stated that they are not injecting anything into Tiger considering their debt.

[waren9]

From MrSheffield

Not everyone has tertiery education i guess.


Clearly. :hmm:

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I know of quite a few guy's that have been given jobs with Tiger recently, are they losing pilots or is this the expansion? With finances like that they must be shaky hey?
SN

[Sunstar320]

Saw alot of AFP down at the Tiger Terminal today, looked on the dep/arr board and wow. Are they that low on crews that they are cancelling daylight flights and moving them to 2am? 7.45am Maroochy flight is only 17hrs delayed, same with the afternoon hobart flight, not moving till 3am.

With 5 A320's, just confusing as every aircraft is delayed for some reason. Anyone know?

[MrSheffield]

With 5 A320's, just confusing as every aircraft is delayed for some reason

easy. no cabin crew. Tiger f*k the cabin crew, cabin crew f*k the tiger. good on them. make a stance. they are slowly learning. too late probably.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

M.S
I don't know about too late. These guy's are starting up in a very volatile and agressive market. No one is going to cut them any slack at all. They want to have the lowest costs of any carrier and as such from time to time they will make sure that they are paying only what they have to.

I'm not saying they will make it to profitabilty but I will say that if they do there is no way they will fail from that point provided they are the carrier with the lowest cost base and therefore can offer the lowest fares. I think they have a long way to go to find a balance between fare prices and service as well.

With QF giving up share to J* and VB/VA hittiing QF where it hurts that may just leave enough space at the bottom of the tank for Tiger to get established and look out if they do.
SN

[Darwinism]

From MrSheffield - "easy. no cabin crew. Tiger f*k the cabin crew, cabin crew f*k the tiger. good on them. make a stance. they are slowly learning. too late probably."

And by doing so destroy thousands of passengers' Christmas travel plans - have these lazy bu##rs no idea of the consequences of their actions?

If certain cabin crew (a small, bitter and badly advised minority) aren't happy then they should go - let them find out that the world actually doesn't owe them a living.

[MrSheffield]

I wouldnt call cabin crew doing 170+ hours per month lazy buggers. My understanding lots of crew burnt out - calling in sick / lots fed up -resigning and no coverage to replace them

[breakfastburrito]

Tiger's Expectations look likely to take a dive

In the same way that Tiger Woods is in danger of losing his significant other, it would seem the airline that shares his name is also receiving the cold shoulder.

Singapore-based Tiger-Airways is pre-marketing an initial public offering to insitututional investors and Street Talk understands the size of the floast has already been significantly scaled back due to a lukewarm response.

The IPO prospectus is expected to be lodged in Singapore on Monday and reports that it will be in the region of upto $S500 million ($394 million) are seen as wide off the mark, with $200 million to $250 million considered more accurate.

Moreover, the float will not even be passed under the noses of Australian investors given the scaled-back approach.

About 95 per cent has been tagged for Singapore institutions and the remainder for the country's retail shareholders.

But offshore investors are unlikely to be concerned.

In fact, they may breathe a collective sigh of relief given talk around the town is that Tiger Airways has been priced on a multiple of 10 to 15 times forward earning for fiscal 2011 - fairly toppy when you consider its major comparable airlines, Virgin Blue and AirAsia trade on roughly six times.

Tiger Airways' chief executive Tony Davis, has enough to deal with already.

Significant risks for airlines at the moment include fuel costs, interest rates (think aircraft leases on this could) and foreign exchange (a large proportion of Tiger's operating cost base is denominated in US dollars whereas US dollar revenues do not constitute a major proportion of total revenue).

Also worth noting is that part of the raising proceeds will go towards returning capital to Tigers's major shareholders including Singapore Airlines, Ryanair, and Temasek, whose stakes will be reduced.

The move by these investors to duck participation in such as small IPO suggests they don't see it future as burning bright.

Tiger Airways need the funds.
The airline recorded a pretax loss of $S47.7 million for the year ended march 31 and most of that was from the start-up costs of Tiger's aggressive Australian expansion, according to its latest accounts.

An unsuccessful float would be music to Qantas's ears.

Street Talk, AFR 16 December 2009
My bold emphasis.

[Sunstar320]

Interesting results for the last half year, quite an improvement. Atlhough taking into account that the SIN base is still profitable which still leaves a larger loss for the Aussie base.
Tiger's total revenue for the six months ended Sept 30, 2009 was $206.1 million (US$146.3 million), representing an increase of 12.4 per cent over the same period last year.
It posted a net loss of $8.3 million for the six months ended Sept 30, 2009 - an improvement from $25.2 million loss in the same year-ago period.

[DrPepz]

Hi guys

You can download the draft Tiger IPO Prospectus here.

O P E R A - Offers and Prospectuses Electronic Repository and Access (http://masnet.mas.gov.sg/opera/sdrprosp.nsf/LeftFrame?OpenFrameset&LayerVal=S&Frame=RightPane&SRC=/opera/sdrprosp.nsf/vewPublicLatestShares?OpenView)

I haven't had time to digest the financials (yet) but here are some interesting bits:

Increased competition in the airline industry could harm our Company
The airline industry is highly competitive. One of our shareholders, Singapore Airlines (together with its wholly-owned subsidiary, SilkAir (Singapore) Private Limited (“SilkAir”)) is a significant competitor of Tiger Airways Singapore. We neither coordinate our routes nor have any commercial cooperation agreements with
Singapore Airlines or SilkAir. Our Company and Singapore Airlines have not sought or received any exemption from Singapore competition laws and regulations. We compete with Singapore Airlines and SilkAir on 15 of our
international routes. See “Business — Competition”.

Conflicts of interest may arise between certain of our substantial shareholders, certain of our Directors and our Company

There can be no assurance that conflicts of interest will not arise between certain of our substantial shareholders, certain of our Directors and our Company, and that such conflicts can be resolved. Conflicts of interest may arise between one of our controlling shareholders, Singapore Airlines (and its wholly-owned subsidiary, SilkAir), and us with respect to our operations and business opportunities.

In addition to our competition with Singapore Airlines and SilkAir, Singapore Airlines is the controlling shareholder of SIA Engineering Company Limited
(“SIAEC”), one of our major suppliers. Each of Mr. Chan Hon Chew, Mr. Koh Swee Lim and Mr. Teoh Tee Hooi is a nominee of Singapore Airlines on our Board of Directors. Mr. Chan is senior vice president (finance) and Mr. Teoh is senior vice president (corporate services) of Singapore Airlines, and Mr. Koh is senior vice president (commercial) of SIAEC. In addition, Mr. Chow Kok Wah, divisional vice president (engineering operations) of Singapore Airlines, serves on the board of directors of Tiger Airways Australia as a nominee of our Holding Company.

We may also face conflicts of interest between Temasek Holdings, the parent of another of our substantial shareholders, Dahlia, as Temasek Holdings is the majority shareholder of Singapore Airlines and a significant investor in certain of our suppliers, such as SATS and Starhub Ltd. Temasek Holdings is also in negotiations with the Singapore government on the sale of Changi Airport Group (Singapore) Pte. Ltd. (“CAG”), which manages and runs Singapore’s Changi Airport, to Temasek Holdings. Temasek Holdings may own CAG in the future. Mr.
Lee Chong Kwee is a nominee of Dahlia on our Board of Directors.


======

Page 139 describes Tiger Airways' transactions with SIA.

[mickjoebill]

Some comments regarding my first Tiger flight with my family.
I have flown on many flights on Easy Jet and Ryanair since their inception and filmed Easyjet and Stelios in his startup phase

Back to Tiger
Fares were very cheap, cheap enough to factor an overnight stay if the aircraft departed a day late.

Selected own seats.

72 hours min notice to alter prebooked weight of baggage is a trap, there are options with set prices for 15kg 20kg and 30 kg.


New aircraft, local sounding pilots with good communication to passengers.

Outgoing flight left on time return flight left 10 minutes late.

Cabin crew appeared happy, cohesive and were considerate friendly and helpful to passengers, the most pleasant crew I have experienced in recent times.

Explanation of Over Wing Emergency Exits to passengers seated in that row was more detailed than I have ever heard.


Luggage retrieval setup in Melbourne arrivals "shed" is an extraordinary affair but in light of the low fares is an acceptable loss of comfort to save a few $$$. But no obvious help should one have oversize baggage that wouldn't easily fit through the cattle turn-style.

From this single flight Id say that their approach is better than Ryanair as their efforts to save a few $$$ is not in your face (for instance the seats do not have the plastic backs) and the staff don't seem to have developed contempt for their passengers, although this may come in time.

If Tiger can keep the respect for passengers we experienced they would do well.
Clear communication to passengers who are new to airline travel is key to reducing instances of unnecessary angst and public displays of disapproval that begin to fray the nerves of any passenger within earshot.




I'm planning a trip to Vietnam with Tiger for the family in 2010, total cost for 3 adults and one child return from Perth is under $1500 including taxes. This is cheap enough to be happy that the plane leaves (at any time) on the days of scheduled departure.


I hope they stay in business long enough for us to take advantage of their low fares and hope that cabin staff can continue the level of service that we experienced on our first flight with them.



Mickjoebill

[PPRuNeUser0161]

So whats the aircraft delivery schedule? I heard number 8 is in the country but not sure where its going.
SN

[Sunstar320]

Didnt think it would be here this early, its heading off to be based in Adelaide from end of march, operating around Melbourne from 1 Feb-27 March.

Which ex Singapore aircraft is this? 9V-TAL?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

OK so are there any more on the order books for Australia after number 8 or are they going to settle down and try to make some money before any further investment? Seems to me they have been losing money for a long time, how long can this go on before someone says enough?
SN

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Given the recent alliance between Air Asia and J* I am starting to think that Tiger are either not that serious about their game or they need to ramp up fleet size a lot quicker than they are. I'm no MD or CEO but to me the situation looks pretty grim even if they have a good float and get a lousy $200M. They are nowhere near critical mass.

I really would like them to succeed as they are providing jobs and a service (albeit somewhat inflexible) to the public but if they think the local operators will just leave them alone to get established just because they are here they should think again. Slow and easy sounds good but it has not prevented big losses.

[1a sound asleep]

If you read the articles in the press it seems that the Ryanir investors would like to water down their exposure by off loading shares and equity. Note that Ryan Air's Declan Ryan and Bill Franke quit the board:confused: and the airline this week announced a new chairman

An analyst at Standard & Poor's Equity Research in Singapore, said yesterday that investors were nervous about Tiger's competitive prospects, adding that a Jetstar-AirAsia deal could "cripple" the Singapore airline

Remember this is a new start airline that has never made a profit.

I do not apologize for disliking the way Tiger does business. Personally I don't think they have a profitable future in Australia. There is low cost overheads and then there is cut everything to the bare bones and contempt for passengers - It just doesn't fit in Australia.

The only way Tiger is filling planes is with very heavy discounting. There's clearly a boycott of Tiger by any regular air traveler. This has left Tiger with the bottom of the heap leisure passenger.

I have regularly followed Tiger's booking engine and they dont sell any where enough fares at high levels to ever make a sustained profit, IMO. Business passengers, which are needed in the Australia market to profit, will NOT travel with Tiger's arrogant attitude

And their arrogance is reflected in their attempt to float on the stock exchange with an order for:ugh: 50 more brand new A320. I note their current fleet is just 7

Seriously have a good think before you buy any shares. Remember Compass folks?

[3 Holer]

Problem is, when the CEO states "It could be sometime before we pay a dividend", who is going to invest their hard earned into an investment that may never give you a return. Even hard to see the par price rising given the competition Qantas, Jetsar and Air Asia are about to launch.

Yes.................if I were a sceptic, I may think that $200 million from naive investors would be a nice little amount to wind up operations in Oz and get back to Singapore. :E

[windytown]

To me Tiger has some similarities to Skybus, which represent challenges Ryanair (Tiger's model) did not face.

Both are ULLC entering a market where there are existing and established LCC competitors who by comparsion offer a superior product generally at prices customers consider acceptable/affordable. Combine this with the ability for the existing players to take advantage of their economies of scale (share fixed costs over more planes, more options for recovering from MX problems etc), better route network and frequency, and to sell elsewise empty seats at low prices and life will be very hard for the ULCC.

In my mind neither Tiger OZ nor Skybus understood that their market already had expectations as to what a LCC should offer and that this expectation is at a level above what they deliver(ed).

While Ryanairs CEO often talks about how important it is for them to be ULLC, he doésn't talk about how important timing and location was to their success. Ryanair took off by being one of the first to take advantage of changes in regulation at a time when the competition was high cost - high fare, and the potential market for leisure/visiting family travel on the early routes (eg UK - Ireland) offered high growth with relatively moderate flight lengths (ie shorter than Aust routes) which kept costs low. In short they were not competiting on a route by route basis with a LCC (and initially they avoided head on competition with charters) and got the first mover advantage.

[1a sound asleep]

"In my mind neither Tiger OZ nor Skybus understood that their market already had expectations as to what a LCC should offer and that this expectation is at a level above what they deliver(ed)."


Exactly. I repeat that QF/DJ/JQ all get a fair share of the business market and the higher yield. Tiger gets none of this. I am sorry but Tiger is destined to fail. Maybe 12 months maximum

[Sunstar320]

I wouldn't say they are Tiger are to withdraw from the Domestic market, financial goals and targets have improved quite significantly. Losses amounted to 4million in the last six months vs 25million the previous year. Cost base is nearly lower than AirAsia, and once more aircraft arrive this will continue to fall and work to their advantage. Also read this statement:

"Tiger's consolidated unit cost per ASK (available seat kilometre) came to 4.7 US cents for FY2009, just above AirAsia’s 3.8 US cents, and better than Ryanair’s five US cents. This fell further to four US cents during the first half of the current financial year. In fact, its cost per seat (ex-fuel) has fallen steadily from US$44 for FY2008, to US$40.3 for FY2009 to US$32.7 during the first half. The airline also boasts a much leaner staffing, with just 33 employees per aircraft, versus 77 for AirAsia and 65 for Jetstar"

I agree in that Tiger Australia has many similarities to Skybus, although Tiger has posted profits and does has the Singapore operation as well as Australia. And to further what windytown said, Tiger has a better chance of crippling in 2008 than now. The shareholders stated they wanted the reins of the Australian domestic market, fair enough, BUT it was who they put in charge that destroyed Tiger and that has effected the entire group. He is obviously no longer with the airline anymore but cost the airline millions that was then left to Shelley Roberts to deal with. $20 million has been spent on getting staff numbers back up to a decent level to avoid piles of flights being canceled, stranding people, putting them up in Hotels all costing them millions again, all thanks to that arsehole.. It all leads back to the disastrous image they have right now, if they operated with integrity and didn't screw their employees, well then they wouldn't be such a bad position right now. It could be fair to say that they still screw around their cabin crew, but not to the extent back in 2008.

Putting that aside, they need to pay deposits for $800 million in 2 years, whilst floating in debt and no real big profit being estimated. Its going to be an interesting run.

Well, they say its the year of the Tiger after all :ok:

[1a sound asleep]

I see no profits only loss - profit improved by S$24.7m from a loss of S$14.8m FY 31 March 2007 to a profit of S$9.9m FY 31 March 2008. So thats still a total loss.


The airline had $S18.5m in cash at September 30 with a net liability position of $S106.8m as it faces payments of $US778m for aircraft alone by the end of fiscal 2012

Would-be investors should note that Tiger's debts exceed its assets by $S107 million and that possibly includes book value (over valued assets).


Indigo intends to sell part of its 24 per cent stake into the offer while Ryanasia will reduce its 16 per cent holding if an over-allotment is triggered. This indicates that the founders are running for cover


Sorry I dont see any future. Well I see more future in Asia , but certainly not in Australia

[MrSheffield]

2010 will be a different year for Tiger Australia, more aircraft & more routes. Soon to start MEL/BNE, BNE/ROK & ADL/BNE and no doubt more announcements in the near future.

The Oz operation has been successful in staying alive and growing despite the poor running of the operation early on and poor public perception. However, from here on end, (theoretically) the teething issues will be sorted outout the more people keep flying Tiger (the load factors are very positive) the more the public will realise that they can actually get from A to B without drama 99% of the time. Yes Tiger had lots of flight cancelled, but with more aircraft they can now manage the schedule better than with what they had before. Point being things should get smoother with more aircraft, so to the balance sheets.

Latest figures published show MARCH 31st - SEPTEMBER 30th 2009 loss significantly less than the same period 12 months prior. The total loss of $80 million in 2 years was mostly accounted for and pre-planned, something the newspapers fail to publish / accept / realise.

Early indications were that Tiger Oz would make profit in less time than Singapore (3 years), if this will not be achieved (probably not) it wont be far off.

If Tiger Management are reading this, which I'm sure some do, you really ought to do something more proactive about the airline's public perception. It's quite **** :(

[tiger-palm]

Public perception of a ultra low cost carrier hmmm !! - look at Ryanair's media coverage, does MOL care. If it's cheap enough they'll fly Tiger again.

[1a sound asleep]

"Public perception of a ultra low cost carrier hmmm !! - look at Ryanair's media coverage, does MOL care. If it's cheap enough they'll fly Tiger again."

Tiger-Palm there is quite a difference between Ryanair and Tiger's ops in Australia. The only way Tiger can fill planes is with low yielding low paying pax that will never make a profit

Ryanair actually does have good on time departure record and they actually do attract a surprising amount of business pax as well. Their yeilds are surprisingly better than many expect. When Ryanair started ops they didn't have other LCC operators to compete with

Tiger on the other hand has everything going against it.

- Very Bad Reputation of arrogance and poor service
- Excessive cancelled or legthy delays
- No Australia based call centre. No 1300 call number
- POOR yields
- No email. Yes that's right you CANT even email them
- Grossly Excessive fees
- No free seat selection
- No connection service
- Inadequate route structure to compete with QF/JQ/DJ

The only business Tiger gets in Australia is the Greyhound Bus passengers looking for a cheaper alternative. It is an unsustainable model. Trying to bring a Ryanair model to Australia when there are other better value, more reliable, Australian owned airlines here just wont work long term.

I feel sorry for the Tiger employees who have worked hard with an inadequate and unresearched management team. My advice to them is get a job with one of the other airlines as soon as you can. The managmenet team need a job at crazy clarks

Tiger is unlikely to ever make a profit in Australia. About the only exception would be if the world fleet of B737 was grounded.

EDIT - Anybody who doubts how bad Tiger is should read some of the reviews. When you see an alarming number of very disgruntled passengers like this it must ring alarm bells with any potential investor. Tiger Airways Reviews and Tiger Airways Passenger Opinions about Tiger Airways product and service standards (http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/tiger.htm)

[breakfastburrito]

"Am I going to come up and set up and AirAsia Australia? No. Tiger is on drugs doing it."



"You (Tiger) are sitting on a market of a billion people and you go and put half your capacity in a market of 24 million people which has two pretty strong airlines; it doesn't make sense to me."

Tony Fernandes, AirAsia X CEO as quote in the Australian Financial Review 7th Jan 2010, page 13.

Despite the vested interests, I think he makes a valid point.

[68+iou1]

First of all, I live in Europe. I have no elegances with either airline.
From my experience flying with Tiger is exactly the same as flying with Jet Star. Can the Jet Star fans please stop talking down to Tiger? They are you equal!

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Surely they have some motive for the apparent madness? But what?
SN

[porch monkey]

Equal? I'll have some of whatever you're on......

[otto the grot]

1a sound asleep
F@rk!n hell. Take it easy pal. There's no need to proliferate the Coward st propaganda here buddy. We get enough of that bullsh!t from the print media.

J* mid level management puppets need to think more about how they are going to head off this Singapore onslaught and less about posting worthless and unsubstantiated drivel on prune.

[gobbledock]

In this afternoon's 'The Australain'.

TIGER Airways, based in Singapore, is seeking to raise as much as $S273 million ($213.7m) in an optimistic initial public offering that values its shares at between $S1.35 and $S1.65.
The airline wants to sell about 165 million shares, which would represent about 30 per cent of its final register, to set up new bases, fund aircraft and pay off loans.
Most of the shares will be a new issue, but 5.8 per cent will come from current investor Indigo partners.
Ryan family vehicle RyanAsia has also said it will sell down some of its stake if the IPO is oversubscribed, but Singapore Airlines, which holds 49 per cent, and Singapore government investment arm Temasek are not selling.
The indicative price values the shares at 11.4 to 13.9 times forecast 2011 earnings. Tiger Aviation posted a net loss of $S51m in the year to March 31, compared with a $S9.8m profit the previous year, and its cash reserves slumped from $S33.4m to $S13.2m.
Meanwhile, Jetstar and AirAsia denied that they had announced a cost-cutting alliance on the same day as the start of Tiger's investment roadshow with the goal of undermining its float.


AirAsia chief executive Tony Fernandes blamed the timing on the difficulty of getting the airlines' chief executives together on the same day.
Mr Fernandes welcomed the Tiger IPO, saying another publicly listed low-cost carrier would give AirAsia something against which it could compare its performance.

[VBPCGUY]

If they dont get this capital raising they are in very deep poo, well the Australian operation would thats for sure.

[Cactus Jak]

Why do you say that? Have the share holders passed on this info to you or are you just talking out of your ar$e?

Tell me. Is there a reason why SQ and Tamasek are not interested in selling out of Tiger in this IPO?

[MrSheffield]

Tell me. Is there a reason why SQ and Tamasek are not interested in selling out of Tiger in this IPO?

That interests me too, obviously they know something we dont.

[3 Holer]

Maybe they can't get anyone to buy their shares ?

[Skystar320]

http://soundbiteblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/armchair-quarterback.jpg

[squidward]

Just came across this:

Tiger Airways readies for next big leap with Singapore IPO - General - FinanceAsia.com - The network for financial decision makers (http://www.financeasia.com/article.aspx?CIaNID=119775)


Tiger Airways readies for next big leap with Singapore IPO By Anette Jönsson | 6 January 2010

The Singapore-based low-cost airline is seeking to raise up to $195 million which will be partly used to pay for the acquisition of 50 new aircraft.


Tiger Airways Holdings looks set to become the first company of size to list in Singapore this year as it kicks off the roadshow today for an initial public offering that seeks to raise between S$223.0 million and S$272.5 million ($159 million to $195 million).

Southeast Asia was rather quiet in 2009 in terms of new listings. Singapore saw only one IPO of any significance all year and the top two listings in the region -- mobile operator Maxis in Malaysia and shopping mall builder and operator CapitaMalls Asia in Singapore -- didn't happen until November. But now, companies in the region are clearly showing that they are ready to compete for investor attention in 2010. Aside from Tiger Airways, Thailand's Indorama Ventures is currently on a domestic roadshow to drum up support for an IPO of about $350 million and is expected to start marketing the deal to international investors early next week.

Tiger Airways is raising money to help pay for an aggressive expansion over the coming five years. The low-cost airline, which is currently 49%-owned by Singapore Airlines, has ordered no fewer than 50 new aircraft that will be delivered between 2011 and 2015. This will multiply its current fleet of 17 Airbus A320 aircraft.

Airlines across the world have had a tough time over the past 18 months as the financial crisis has curtailed travelling and exports, but with the economic recovery now under way, things are expected to improve. And Tiger Airways' IPO is well timed as low cost carriers (LCCs) are typically outperforming early in the cycle. The listing is also coinciding with the opening of the two integrated casino resorts in Singapore early this year, which is expected to result in a big boost to tourism.

The company believes there are strong growth opportunities for low-cost airlines such as itself in the Asia-Pacific region, which already account for about one-third of total global air travel; in less than 10 years the low-cost sector is expected to be the largest air travel market in the world. Air travel in the region is forecast to grow at an average annual rate of 6.5% between 2008 and 2028, outperforming the global annual growth rate of 4.9% in the same period.

Arguably, the airline industry in this region is competitive, and LCCs are competing not only with regular carriers, but also (on shorter routes in particular) with other modes of transport such as buses and trains. This is highlighted by the expected announcement today of an alliance between two other budget airlines - Malaysia's AirAsia and Australia's Jetstar. According to earlier media reports, the two carriers are planning to cooperate by various means to help them cut costs.

However, Tiger Airways has shown that its low-cost model, which is similar to that used by successful European budget airline Ryanair, can also be profitable, even when faced with rising fuel prices. Its Singapore-based operations, Tiger Airways Singapore, turned profitable in fiscal 2008, its third year of operation, and sources say the Australian business, which was launched in November 2007, is expected to achieve profitability within the next 12-18 months.

In the fiscal year to March 2008, the company reported a modest net profit of S$9.9 million, followed by a loss of S$50.8 million in fiscal 2009 (which was affected by the launch of Tiger Airways Australia). In the six months to September 2009, it made a loss of S$8.3 million.

Tiger Airways hasn't disclosed the price for the new planes, which are all of the same Airbus A320 type as its existing fleet, but in a preliminary listing document it notes that it believes it has secured the aircraft "on attractive terms" that will allow it to reduce its aircraft ownership costs. However, even if it uses debt financing for the larger portion of these purchases, it is clear that it will be faced with rather large capital expenditure over the next few years and that the fresh equity capital will be needed.

Until now, Tiger Airways has leased its aircraft, but yesterday the company announced that it has secured a financing arrangement with Standard Chartered to pay for two aircraft that will be delivered in January and February this year, and said that these will be the first aircraft that it will own rather than lease. This will enable the airline to further reduce its operating costs and continue to offer its customers across the region the lowest possible air fares, said Tony Davis, Tiger Airways' president and CEO.

"As we continue to grow our fleet, we will look to finance additional aircraft in a similar fashion," he added.

The Standard Chartered financing is backed by export credit agency Coface of France and is structured in Singapore dollars, although the payment for the aircraft will be made in US dollars. Again, there was no mention of the size of the aircraft financing.

Aside from covering the equity portion of the aircraft acquisition costs and pre-delivery payments, the net proceeds from the IPO will also go towards the repayment of all outstanding short-term loans that have been used to finance earlier pre-delivery payments and to potentially establish new hubs in addition to its three current bases in Singapore, Melbourne and Adelaide.

Now in its sixth year of operation, Tiger Airways also intends to increase the frequency of its flights on existing routes and to launch new routes and destinations. On February 1, the airline will start flying to Hong Kong (from Singapore) and on March 28 it will add flights to Brisbane in Australia, both from Melbourne and Adelaide.

The company is selling about 30% of its enlarged share capital in the form of 165.155 million shares, of which 95% are new. The remainder will be sold by Indigo, a US-based private equity firm that specialises in the transportation sector and is one of the four founding shareholders of Tiger Airways. The other three are Singapore Airlines, Temasek through its wholly-owned subsidiary Dhalia, and Ryanasia, which is a company controlled by Ryanair founder Decclan Ryan. Indigo currently owns 24%, so will only be selling a small portion of its stake.

There is also a 12% greenshoe that could add another 19.8 million shares to the deal and increase the total proceeds to as much as $218 million. The shoe will be all existing shares put up by Ryanasia, which currently holds 16% of the company.

The offer price ranges from S$1.35 and S$1.65, which translates into a price-to-earnings ratio of between 11.4 and 13.9 times, based on earnings projections for the fiscal year ending in March 2011.

This puts it a discount to Ryanair, which trades at a 2010 P/E multiple between 14 and 17.5 times, based on various projections. This would make sense, given Ryanair's lower operating history and track record. At the low end of the range it also comes at a discount to AirAsia, which trade at 11.2-12.4 times this year's projected earnings.

Citi and Morgan Stanley are joint bookrunners for the IPO, with DBS acting as a joint lead manager and coordinator for the Singapore retail offering.

© Haymarket Media Limited. All rights reserved.

[tiptoeturkey]

The stakes aren't that high for either Jetstar or Tiger.
They are both very happy with their positions and future expansion plans.
Easy.

Except Jetstar Asia who are about to be screwed by you know who...completely.

And keep buying VB shares..... good value.
...We need the money.

:)

[GC14]

Jan 12, 2010

Tiger advances A320 delivery



SINGAPORE budget carrier Tiger Airways said on Tuesday it has brought forward the delivery of five Airbus A320 aircraft to boost its expansion into Asia and Australia.
The aircraft will now be delivered later this year and in early 2011 instead of the original dates in 2016, the firm said in a statement.
Standard Chartered Bank has completed a 'structured pre-delivery payment financing arrangement' to allow for the early delivery of the aircraft, the statement said.
'In view of the opportunities for us to grow our business in both Asia and Australia, we have accelerated delivery of these five new aircraft from their original delivery dates in 2016 to now join our fleet later this year and in early 2011,' Tiger chief executive Tony Davis said.
Tiger Airways currently operates a fleet of 17 Airbus A320 aircraft and is planning to increase that to 68 by Dec 2015.
The carrier, which is 49 per cent owned by Singapore Airlines, flies from Singapore to destinations across Asia and to the Australian city of Perth. It also operates domestic services in Australia. -- AFP

[Sunstar320]

Which means a total of 12 A320's will be delivered in the next fiscal year, so about 60% extra capacity.

[porch monkey]

Sure, 60%. How many will actually end up here, not in Singapore? That's the question that OZ flight crews would like answers to.

[drop bear ten]

Have you considered that the additional aircraft announcement might be to entice retail investors to throw their $$$ in the hat?

[DrPepz]

Tony Davis has 8 million pre-IPO option shares at strike prices of between 8-13 cents.

So assuming Tiger IPO’s at $1.65, his paper profit = (1.65-0.13) * 8 million = $12.16 million

A total of 53 directors and employees were granted some 28 million option shares at exercise prices of between eight and 26 cents each.
So on average, each employee gets = (1.65-0.17) * 28 million / 53 = $0.78 million

SUPERB deal for their employees!! Tony Davis will laugh all the way to the bank on 22 Jan. He'll be worth $12m more!

Shelley Roberts will be worth $2.43m more.

Glorious deal. Even if the share price falls 50% on the first day, there will be many, many millionaires in Tiger come 22 Jan!

==========

Tiger prices retail IPO shares at $1.65
Final price will be fixed after book-building
By VEN SREENIVASAN

TIGER Airways launched its initial public offer yesterday with a maximum offer price of $1.65 per share targeted to raise about $246.8 million, the bulk of which will be used to fund its fleet expansion.

The public/retail tranche of about 12.4 million shares is priced at $1.65, even though the final strike price will be anywhere between $1.35 and $1.65, depending on the institutional response to the ongoing book-building exercise.
Retail investors will be refunded the difference if the final strike price is below $1.65 per share.

Sources close to the deal told BT that with three days to the book-building closure, the company should be 'comfortable with the books and the price'.
Excluding over-allotment, a total of 165.2 million shares are on offer, comprising about 155.6 million issue shares and 9.6 million vendor shares. Net proceeds from the issue shares are expected to be about $246.8 million.
Only Indigo Partners is paring down part of its current 24 per cent stake through the offer of vendor shares, while Ryanasia has a 'green shoe' option to offer up 19.8 million shares for the over-allotment portion.

Singapore Airlines and Temasek Holdings, which together now control 60 per cent of the company, will hold on to their Tiger shares, though their stake will be diluted post-IPO.

Up to $166 million of the funds raised will be used for its planned acquisition of Airbus A320 aircraft and the associated aircraft pre-delivery payments, while $50.4 million will be used to repay outstanding short-term loans secured to finance pre-delivery payments. Another $10.0 million will go towards establishing potential new airline and/or operating bases, while $20.4 million will be used as working capital.

In a teleconference from London yesterday, where he is on an investment road-show, CEO Tony Davis expressed confidence that the IPO marks a new chapter for his budget carrier as it prepares to capitalise on the fastest and potentially largest aviation market in the world.

'We are now in full steam ahead,' he said, and rejected media reports which has said that Tiger had scaled down its IPO in the face of poor reception.
'I believe after five years, we have earned our stripes. We built up a profitable business in Singapore after just three years, and after a start-up year in Australia, we are making good progress with a presence in every major city and every territory.'

He said rather than yield, Tiger would focus on keeping costs down, thus offering the lowest fares and filling all seats. Tiger's consolidated unit cost per seat per km in fiscal year 2009 was 4.7 US cents, while during the six months ended Sept 30, 2009, it was four US cents - one of the lowest in the world.
'We are ready, willing and able to execute the model and are excited about our prospects.'

He also dismissed the recent Jetstar-AirAsia alliance as more show than substance.

'I didn't see a lot of substance in the announcement last week,' he said.
The Australian and Malaysian carriers announced a resource-and-cost sharing alliance which could also include joint aircraft procurement.

Mr Davis said that besides the earmarked $166 million from the IPO proceeds, the 50 aircraft on order would also be funded by profits and cashflow. The airline will have 68 planes by end-2015.

The IPO could indeed mark a coming of age for the airline which at the end of March 2009 reported cumulative losses of $77.0 million in Singapore and A$79.3 million (S$101.8 million) in Australia, respectively. It was also in net liability position of $106.8 million as at end-September 2009. But its first half FY2010 has shown promising numbers, with a potential for break-even in Australia.

Assuming it had issued 155.6 million shares at $1.65 prior to Sept 30, 2009, Tiger would have been in a net asset position of $140.5 million as at Sept 30, 2009.

Tiger's senior management, Singapore Airlines and Temasek Holdings are locked into a no-sale moratorium for six months after the IPO, with the SIA and Temasek having an additional six-month moratorium on half their holdings. Mr Davis has been granted almost eight million pre-IPO option shares with strike prices of between eight and 13 cents, while Tiger Singapore's managing director Rosalynn Tay has about 2.2 million at between 10 and 13 cents per share.

Tiger Australia's managing director Shelley Roberts and chief financial officer Chin Sak Hin have each been granted about 1.6 million shares at 13 cents each. A total of 53 directors and employees were granted some 28 million option shares at exercise prices of between eight and 26 cents each.
The IPO closes on Jan 18, with trading commencing on Jan 22.

[farrari]

Any one who buys into this is a fool. There is no way that that share price will hold , just look at VBs price. All you are doing by buying shares is giving Davis and others money out of your pocket.Wait till the price hits the cents mark some time this year.

[S70IP]

Hi people,
Am I missing something? Quite possibly..

I thought this was part of the whole plan for Singapore Airlines to have a Aussie based airline that met the minimum Aussie ownership laws to have the network accross the pacific. Wasn't this why they were the only airline to object to the V Aus/ Delta deal? This capital raising plan with the recent aviation white paper policy changes to the Qantas act (which effects al Aussie ailines) actually helps their plans as well.
Tiger (aka Singapore Airlines, cheapest easiest way to get into the Aussie market) will then buy A340 sized planes 777, whatever and fly the Pacific completing a global network for Singapore.

[DrPepz]

S701P:

Tiger Airways is run completely separately from SIA. They don't even coordinate the use of their ground handling facilities, fuel, maintenance etc in SIN.

Further, SQ only owns 49% of TR. After the IPO, it will probably fall to under 40%. As such, TR isn't even an SQ subsidiary and SQ can't exert majority control over it. Considering SQ's equity was 49% from the beginning, it was probably intentional that they didn't intend for TR to be a subsidiary. Since SQ owns 49% of Virgin Atlantic, you can probably see the kind of control SQ has over Virgin Atlantic (which is almost none)

It is very unlikely you will see Tiger operate widebodies in SIN or Australia, and back in the days where the yields from SYD to LAX were great, SIA only wanted to operate their aircraft across the Pacific. Today, SQ isn't even interested in operating that route, since VA and DL have lowered yields to such a great extent.

[breakfastburrito]

Strapped in, and it's no joy flight

Tony Davis is riding the tiger, but it remains to be seen whether or not he will
survive the experience. Davis, 44, is the president and chief executive of Tiger
Airways Holdings, which yesterday formally launched its initial public offering
in Singapore.


Although its been flying passengers and freight around South-East Asia since
September 2004, and Australia since November 2007, Tiger has yet to record a
profit from these activities.


Its prospectus has all the usual blue sky stuff that fledgling airlines tend to
go on about - details about new route and market opportunities, and high passenger
growth rates (56 per cent between fiscal 2006 and fiscal 2009 for Tiger).


One wouldn't expect anything less from a start-up business - although buried in
the fine print of the prospectus is a breakdown between the Asian business and
the Australian one that suggests Tiger's Asian growth went missing in fiscal
2009. Asian revenue rose 1.7 per cent to $S268 million ($208.7 million), while
Australian revenue jumped from $S40 million to $S110 million. In other words,
some 94 per cent of the groups revenue growth was generated by the business in
Australia.


Davis, in a press statement says the IPO is an "important milestone" for Tiger.
It certainly is for him and 52 other directors and staff, who collectively own
28.2 million options that vest and become exercisable (at prices of S8c, S10c,
and S13c) on listing. Davis's share is 7.2 million, although he has another
608,865 that vest in May.


Eschewing a once-planned wider regional institutional market, Tiger and its
underwriters are concentration on a smaller local one whose dedication to all
things boasting a government pedigree should guarantee it a successful offer -
pared down though it might be. Especially with travel to and from Singapore
expected to ramp up in the next few months as the countries two new casinos
(contained within integrated resorts) open.

Genting Berhad kicks off the first of several staged openings of it Resorts
World at Sentosa this month, while Las Veges Sands Corp's Marina Bay Sands opens
the first of its facilities in April.


Where once the talk (unsubstantiated) was of a $S500 million deal, Tiger's
prospectus is for the issue of 155.6 million new shares valued at between $S210
million and $S257 million. Even at peak pricing (and market talk suggests
something closer to the bottom end of the range), only 8 per cent of the funds
will be retained by Tiger for working capital.


Most (67 per cent) will either go to Airbus or to aircraft lessors to fund
aircraft purchases while another 20 per cent goes straight to Tiger's banks to
pay off short-term loans.
Presumably, any reduction from the maximum proceeds will come out of the $S10
million earmarked for "potential new airline and/or operating bases" as well
as the $S20 million for working capital.


Its hard to see Tiger's appetite for capital being anywhere near satiated by
this transaction since prima facie, Tiger doesn't look like its in any shape to
be floated.


Its a young company that is yet to record a profit. Tiger's spin contests this,
and to be fair, it did record a $S9.9 million profit in 2008 - but only because
a tax benefit boosted a break-even pretax result.


Moreover, the prospectus is devoid of profit forecasts, even for the year that
ends in 11 weeks. Much has been made of forecasts made in reports circulated by
the underwriting investment banks (Citigroup, Morgan Stanley and DBS) that
suggest the indicated pricing range represents a multiple of 11.4 to 13.9 times
forecasts 2011 earnings. Those that have seen the reports (I haven't) talk of a
hockey stick trend in earnings.


What the prospectus does include, although are financial statements showing bank
debt of $S111.8 million at September 30, capital expenditure and operating lease
commitments of $S3.8 million and pre-IPO negative shareholders funds of $106.8
million.


Theres also a handy little ready reckoner that points out that if the maximum
IPO price of $S1.65 a share is achieved in the book-build, $S1.38 of it (83.7
per cent) evaporates immediately in the balance sheet - although the negative
S29c-a-share net asset value (NAV) does turn into a positive S27c one (meaning
the company is raising money at six times post issue NAV). A S10c-a-share
reduction in the IPO price results in 84.5 per cent NAV evaporation.


Which bring us to a very curious and unexplained aspect of Tiger's listing -
just why, given that between 43 per cent and 53 per cent of the capital being
raised will be absorbed mopping up the surplus of liabilities over assets, does
the transaction also provide for the sale of existing issued shares?


These are being proffered by Indigo Singapore Partners, a private equity fund
managed by William Franke, and, subject to demand, by the Ryan family's Ryanasia
investment vehicle.
Even if they don't get any stock away now, Indigo and Ryanasia are escrowed for
only six months. Tiger's other founding shareholders, Singapore
government-owned Temasek and it's 54.5 per cent-owned Singapore Airlines, have agreed to a 12 month lock-up on
most of their shares.

Singapore Air's record of sticking with struggling airline investments isn't
great (think Air New Zealand/Ansett, Delta Air Lines, Swissair and Virgin
Atlantic) and concerns on this front aren't helped by the disclosure in Tiger's
prospectus that it competes with Singapore Air (and its subsidiary SilkAir),
and that they "neither co-ordinate our routes nor have any commercial
co-operation agreements". Throw in Singapore Air's dilution from 49 per cent to
34 per cent and the warning bells get a little louder.

*************************************************

Talk in Asia makes much of the fact that Tiger is the first regional airline to
float since India's Jet Airways listed in 2005 and that others - such as Garuda,
Thai Airways and Lion Air - may also be contemplating use the strong equity
capital markets to fund their own growth. They also still chuckle about the
timing of the Qantas Airways/Jetstar alliance with AirAsia coinciding with the
launch of Tiger's institutional roadshow, and that it focused a lot of minds on
the intensity of the intra- and inter Asian airline industry. Especially the
low-cost carrier one.

Tiger's response was to announce it was bringing forward the delivery of five
Airbus A320 aircraft, two of which are being delivered this month. In a
departure from its previous policy, Tiger plans to won rather than lease these
planes.

Davis says owning the aircraft rather than leasing them (as it has until now)
will allow Tiger to "further reduce" its operating costs. The planes will take
Tiger's fleet to 19 Airbus A320s, although it has 49 more on order for delivery
by December 2015.

Others point out that its fleet is too small (AirAsia, for example has 88
planes, Jetstar has 46 and Virgin Blue 74) and too spread out to maximize
utilization. Perhaps thats why it chopped and changed its Australian flight
schedules.

Tiger makes as much in its prospectus of the lucrative Australian market as of
the growth potential of the Asian one, but half-a-dozen Australian airlines have
crashed and burned in the past 30 years trying to duplicate the profitability of
Qantas by tackling it head on. Only Virgin Blue has survived.

Alan Jury


Chanticleer, Page 48, Australian Financial Review, Thursday 14 January 2010

[John Citizen]

5 additional, eat that jetstar!

Yes, I am sure Jetstar will eat that.....:p

[DrPepz]

Tiger IPO shines amid the gloom
By Kevin Brown in Singapore

Published: January 17 2010 22:34 | Last updated: January 17 2010 22:34
Tiger Airways, the Singapore low-cost carrier, will on Monday announce that it has raised S$248m ($178m) in the first initial public offering by an Asian airline for five years, defying industry gloom and investor concern about its forecasts.

The success of the IPO sets the stage for an increasingly intense battle between Tiger and its two main rivals – Malaysia’s AirAsia and Jetstar, owned by Qantas – for the rapidly growing Australian and south-east Asian budget air travel market of 600m people.

The two airlines sought to disrupt Tiger’s IPO by announcing a deal two weeks ago to cut hundreds of millions of dollars in annual costs through co-operation in areas such as passenger handling and aircraft maintenance.

However, a person with knowledge of the Tiger transaction said the institutional tranche of the IPO had been three-and-a-half times subscribed, with the retail portion, which closes today four times subscribed on Friday night.

The person said strong retail interest had continued over the weekend, with the portion likely to end up eight to 10 times subscribed.

Tiger and its bankers are understood to have set the issue price for the 165m shares on offer at S$1.50 – in the middle of the range of S$1.35-S$1.65 that was indicated to institutional investors.

The person with knowledge of the transaction said there was a “95 per cent chance” that demand for the shares would trigger an over-allotment clause, under which a further 19.8m shares would be sold by RyanAsia, controlled by the founding family of Ireland’s Ryanair budget carrier, which held a 16 per cent stake in Tiger Airways.

The IPO will provide Tiger with S$233m before expenses to help finance the acquisition of up to 51 new Airbus A320 aircraft by 2015, adding to its fleet of 17 aircraft. The airline has bases in Singapore, Melbourne and Adelaide.

About S$15m of the IPO proceeds is attributable to Indigo Partners, the US-based investment company, which had a 24 per cent stake in the carrier.

Tiger’s controlling shareholders, Singapore Airlines and Temasek, the city state’s investment agency, are not selling any shares.

The IPO got off to a shaky start as investors queried the cost of Tiger’s fleet expansion plans and its aggressive revenue forecasts, but bankers say Tony Davis, the airline’s chief executive, was able to persuade critics that the forecasts were credible.

Mr Davis, an experienced airline executive, set up bmibaby, BMI’s low cost carrier, in the UK.

The airline has not commented on market rumours that it was forced to reduce the IPO target before official marketing began, but people close to the transaction say there is “no truth” in the suggestion.

The IPO is the first Asian airline flotation since Air-Asia, headed by the flamboyant Tony Fernandes, was launched in Kuala Lumpur five years ago. It is the first budget airline IPO in Singapore. The Tiger offering is being managed by Morgan Stanley, Citigroup and Singapore’s DBS bank.

==================================

I'm shocked! Is this a sign the market is going to crash, when investors start buying dud stocks thinking they're pots of gold?

[VBPCGUY]

They will burn through that cash in three years and then there will be a heap of investors smashing themselves in the head going why did I do that:ugh:

[DrPepz]

VBPC: Are you SURE $200 million or whatever will last them 3 years?! SQ/Temasek obviously didn't want to pump more money in which is why they went for this IPO, taking advantage of a time when sentiment on the stock market is high, where the mom and pop investors will buy rubbish. SIA's stake will be reduced to about a third from 49% after this IPO.

The only reason Tiger set up shop in Australia was because all the other South East Asian countries where Air Asia isn't at, rejected them. The Philippines rejected their Clark base, Korea rejected their ICN base..... It is a typical story of Singapore's government-linked companies.

Since most of the region is typically suspicious of Singapore's companies setting up shop there, (large investments like Temasek Holdings' purchase of Thailand's Shin Corp resulted in a military coup, the Indonesian govenrment forced Singapore Technologies to offload its stake in the no.2 telco because Singtel had a stake in the no. 1 telco etc etc etc) many government-linked companies just head to Australia because it is "safe" and welcoming of their capital. (And they tend to overpay as well. Optus never made a profit prior to Singtel taking it over and they paid $17 billion for it.)

Nearly every sizeable government-linked company has huge operations in Australia. Chances are you if you pick up the phone, use electricity or go shopping in Australia (especially in VIC/NSW) you would be transacting with some Singapore government-linked company.

[breakfastburrito]

I'm shocked!

The retail investor has has been done over recently. Just look at what Jennifer Hawkins (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/news/myer-initial-public-offering-prices-at-410-a-share/story-e6frg90f-1225792461360) did for the Myer IPO ($4.10 par).

http://hfgapps.hubb.com/asxtools/imageChart.axd?s=MYR&pi=Stock&ct=3&tf=D3&ovs=&si=Code%20not%20supplied&tima1=0&tima2=0&bi=9&bima=0&comt=index&ds=MYR&dovs=0&val=1&stmp=2010011813450484

[DrPepz]

Conrad Raj is one of the few journalists in Singapore who does not copy and paste the official government press release.

---------------------------
TIGER, TIGER, WHY THE RUSH?

Conrad Raj
Today Online

ALTHOUGH Tiger Airways' public issue of 165 million shares is likely to be fully taken up, response to the offering by the Singapore-based budget carrier has been less than enthusiastic despite Singapore Airlines currently being its largest single shareholder with a 49-per-cent stake.



The main reason for the lukewarm response is its price.



At $1.65 a share, it appears expensive for a company that, overall, has yet to make a single cent since its inception some five years ago. This despite its forecast that it would be in the black from the very first year of its operations.



Tiger president and chief executive Tony Davis said its Singapore operations has "been reporting annual profits since the third full year of operations". But the airline as a whole disclosed for the financial year ended March 2009 that it had lost more than $50 million, had negative equity of $110 million, and had run down its cash balances to $13.2 million from $33.4 million.



Yet, the airline is predicting that for the current 12 months to end-March, it will report profits of $41.6 million. And it gets better over the next few years with forecast earnings of $54.6 million for 2010-11 and just under $75 million for the 2011-12 period.



All this just from its airline operations?



The IPO, which values Tiger at about $800 million and would raise $273 million ($247 million net), has been downsized from an earlier estimate figure of over $350 million, another indication, said some analysts, that it's not such a hot issue.



Although the budget sector is the fastest growing segment of the airlines industry, it's not as if Tiger is a monopoly. There are many competitors, not only in the region but from Australia and India.



Furthermore, it's not as if the traditional carriers like Cathay, Qantas, Thai, Emirates and Qatar, are going to just roll over and play dead.



Even parent Singapore Airlines and its subsidiary Silkair, will be formidable competition. Just recently, they slashed prices sharply to weather the downturn.



On top of this, fuel prices appear to be going up once again. Being the single largest component these days in operational costs, fuel is certainly going to have an adverse impact on Tiger's attempt to turn in a profit.



Tiger has also embarked on a massive expansion programme, which will see its fleet size grow from 17 Airbus A320s now to 68 planes by end-2015. What impact will this have on its debt burden, which is already expected to increase sixfold, from $101 million to $600 million by end-March 2012?



And in one of its main markets, Australia, where it has hubs in Melbourne and Adelaide airports, Tiger continues to face tough competition from Qantas' Jetstar and Mr Richard Branson's Virgin Blue, which is planning a joint venture with America's Delta Airlines. In fact, most of its losses stem from its Australian operations.



Yet, a company press release said Tiger "benefits from the well-established and highly developed Australian aviation industry, which is the fourth largest domestic travel market in the Asia Pacific region".



For sure, Australians have a "greater propensity to travel per capita than any other developed country", but they are also well-known bargain travellers.



The thing that intrigues observers the most is the timing of the issue.



If, as Tiger said, things are going to get rosier in the next few years, why not turn in a profit first before launching the public offering?



At present, it is going for more than 10 times its 2012 forecast earnings. Most IPOs here launch at less than that.



And why is United States private equity firm Indigo Partners, which currently has a 24-per-cent stake, so ready to part with a substantial part of that - 9.6 million shares?



Perhaps, investors would be better off giving the IPO a miss and buying Tiger shares on the open market when they start trading later in the week.

[my oleo is extended]

Save your money folks, or invest in cash bonds or in Gold when it drops to just under $1000. That way you have short and a long term strategy of investment rather than taking a punt investing in Tiger.

[DrPepz]

From the Tiger Airways Prospectus:

Substantial Shareholders and their Associates:

Singapore Airlines
Number of Shares Acquired 179,009,250
Total Consideration (S$) S$11,933,950
Effective Cash Cost per Share (S$) S$0.0667


Indigo
Number of Shares Acquired 87,678,000
Total Consideration (S$) S$5,845,200
Effective Cash Cost per Share (S$) S$0.0667


Ryanasia
Number of Shares Acquired 58,452,000
Total Consideration (S$) S$3,896,800
Effective Cash Cost per Share (S$) S$0.0667


Dahlia (Temasek Holdings)
Number of Shares Acquired 40,185,750
Total Consideration (S$) S$2,679,050
Effective Cash Cost per Share (S$) S$0.0667



Investors in the Offering
Number of Shares Acquired ●165,155,000
Total Consideration (S$) ●S$272,505,750
Effective Cash Cost per Share (S$) ●S$1.65

So SIA makes = 179 million * (1.5 – 0.0667) = SGD 256 million from this exercise.

Perhaps SIA will have the last laugh! They might even be able to declare a FY profit!

[Zigzag]

They will burn through that cash in three years and then there will be a heap of investors smashing themselves in the head going why did I do that

Guess these would be the same investors that bought VB @ $2.25 then?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Interesting, time will tell all......
SN

[VBPCGUY]

Zig Zag I would imagine they are, same investors that bought Telstra shares at the super inflated price.

[Al E. Vator]

or they might end up like Ryanair and Westjet shareholders who made a fortune.

[Skystar320]

Edit, found

[Metro man]

Tiger raises S$247.7 million in IPO.

Shares priced at S$1.50, heavily oversubscribed. Total market value of S$781.3 when it is listed on Friday.

"We are absolutely delighted with the response to this IPO from both the retail investors in Singapore and major global instutional investors." Tony Davis CEO

[1a sound asleep]

In fairness, remember this is on the Singapore Stock Exchange not Australia. Personally I think investors (wrongly) think that Tiger will become another Ryanair.

I remember Australia's first LCC Compass. They were oversubscribed too. Guess what they went bankrupt.

You'd think people would learn. Those same Compass investors bought more stock (after losing everything in Compass) in Compass' second go largely known as Compass II. Guess what? They lost everything second time around too.

Tiger is incredibly arrogant and would probably put up with Australian losses just to save face. I have said it before and I will say it again Tiger belongs with just a Singapore base. Australia will just be a money pit for Tiger

[Al E. Vator]

1a you must have been sound asleep when Compass 1 was around.

It was not shut down by 'bankruptcy'. It was shut down by the Hawke Federal Government for alleged non/under-payment of disputed airways fees, just before the peak travel peiod of Christmas (when the airline would have made millions). The subsequent complex court case ragarding those fees wasn't resolved for years and the matter certainly wasn't decisive enough to warrant the Government shutting down the airline.

The real reason Compass was targeted was that it was hurting Ansett (owned by the PM's mate); a basket-case airline which in any case eventually succumbed to the inevitable.

So holding our heads high in Australia and suggesting we are the epitome of free-market trade and fairness is naieve in the extreme.

[Sunstar320]

This more amazed me than anything. It seems they have more interest in the Aussie domestic market than Singapore, even considering one is highly profitable and one is loss making, although only smaller amounts now.
Australia Domestic: 21 times over-subscribed
Singapore: 4 times over-subscribed.

[priapism]

What's that joke again about how you get a small fortune???

[PPRuNeUser0161]

1a
The bigest problem Compass had was the lack of bums on seats. Tiger does not have that problem. If they go broke it will be due to poor economics and start up planning. In my opinion its been way too slow to add capacity, but then again i'm no manager.....
SN

[otto the grot]

Sunstar 320
The Domestic tranche (21 times oversubscribed) is not refering to the Australian Domestic airline part of the operation.

[DrPepz]

Sunstar: Tiger Airways (which operates both Singaporean and Australian bases) is a Singapore-incorporated company which is listing on the Singapore Exchange (SGX). It is not listing on the ASX.

The Singapore retail offering of the share was 21-times oversubscribed.

The international and institutional investor placements were 4-times oversubscribed.

It does seem that there was far greater interest in this IPO than the media would have thought - and that the underwriters probably did a crap job. They could have raised double the amount easily, looking at the response!

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Dr Pepz
I agree, seems they are of great interest to investors. I would like to know who the corporate buyers are, maybe they know something we dont, in fact i'm sure they do!!!!!

Sure they could have raised a lot more with this float in hind sight but now that they have tested the water there is no stopping them having another issue. Still a lot of doubters out there including me but we may be suprised, to be honest I think it would be a good thing for the travelling public if they get profitable. I just wonder if there are enough pilots to satisfy everything thats going on over the next year or so and hopefully this year of expansions is not followed by a huge bust in the Aussie economy.
SN

[otto the grot]

I'd say crewing will be there biggest problem considering the anticipated competition for pilots this year.

It's all well and good to bring forward deliveries as they have, but they'll be parked for a while if they can't crew them. Expansion will come to a grinding halt.

Besides, why would you go to Tiger when you could just as easily go to Jetstar on better terms and conditions?

On a side, i note with interest that the QF propaganda machine has gone very quiet re TT.

[boocs]

Good luck to Tiger!!
If the crewing shortages you mention eventuate, there are still quite a few drivers overseas who have itchy feet to come home.
b.

[Metro man]

Pay claim is in progress at the moment. IF the AFAP can get most of it through it could be attractive to quite a few people.

[hongkongfooey]

I'd say crewing will be there biggest problem considering the anticipated competition for pilots this year.

Yep, and if they insist on offering guys with a few years 320 experience and 10+ years jet command a 70% pay cut ( from their current job ) to be an effo for a year or 2, they will continue to have that problem :eek:

[Sunstar320]

Besides, why would you go to Tiger when you could just as easily go to Jetstar on better terms and conditions?Stuff like no overnights, start/end in home base, chance to move base etc. The Adelaide roster is quite attractive too, the schedules only operate between 7am-9pm. Not a huge difference when comparing salaries either. But their has been small pay reductions in Singapore.

[boocs]

HKF,

Do u mean Airbus command time? If so, that is crazy considering the impending crew shortage Tiger is about to have.
b.

[MrSheffield]

2 years as effo??

more like waltz right into a DEC coz training department dont have the resources to train effos or cant be assed spending the $$ to upgrade them even tho they bond em apparently

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Other big issues are you cough up 30K plus in advance for the endo and you don't get told where your going until you have packed your car with your kids and toys.

Edit; Also if you pay the 30K and they go broke or pull out before you get command its a waist of money and effort cause probably by then this round of recruiting will be over and we'll be in recession again. Down to the CES and line up with the masses of A320 pilots.

I'm known for my positive attitude you know!
SN

[boocs]

Yeah thx 4 de HUGE Tiger plug there.....

No Soup 4 U!!!!

b.

[hongkongfooey]

Besides, why would you go to Tiger when you could just as easily go to Jetstar on better terms and conditions?

Jetstar 320 never used to do overnights :confused: Staff travel in another universe by comparison. Pay, well maybe similar on the surface except Jet* guys not praying for minimum 75 hrs a month every time roster comes out, which may not happen in times of expansion due training. That and you dont get a big paycut for taking holidays in Jet* ( Tiger only get base during holidays, right ? )

Boocs, no, command time on the other brand ;) But this guy still has more airbus experience/command time than some of the skippers I know in Tiger ( some of which were DEC with zero Airbus time ). The biggest thing he has going against him is the lack of mouldy blue shirts in his closet :}

Soup Nazi, the power of negative thinking :ok:

2 years as effo??
Yeh, I've heard that " rapid " commands have taken between 1-2 years :sad:

[PPRuNeUser0161]

HKF
Really though, if you think back 12 months or so VB were looking at unloading crew (60 or so). If the economy wasn't spoon fed massive amounts of stimulus I believe the recession would have been far worse. If you look at the situation as it currently looks, interest rates are on the up, credit is still easy to get, wages have stalled, the stock market is largly recovered and debt levels are still increasing.

So whats changed, we are all a little poorer due to having to pay back our national creditor's for our stimulus package. If the economy dips again I'm not sure the government will be able to raise the funds to bail us out again, and even if they could i'm not sure its a good thing. America will be the big winner as they have had their recession, rates are low, housing prices are low and a lot of debt has been written off. Now they can start fresh and make a new start. History has shown the economy needs that cleansing to stay healthy.

We are currently experiencing massive growth in the airline industry over a very short space of time, if the bubble bursts, and i'm not saying it will, it will be bad. A lot of guys are getting qualified on jets and this is creating a vacuum in GA. Top end GA pay is growing fairly rapidly whilst the bottom end is still pretty bad, its not uncommon to find a King Air pilot earning well over 100K these days although probably less likely in a capital city.

So I do hope that Tiger stay around for the sake of our industry, the last thing I want to re-live is a repeat of the 90's, man that was bad. Way too many pilots unemployed. At the end of the day they have the lowest costs and that will hold them in good stead to weather any storm that may be on its way although of course they will need to make some profit at some point.
SN

[slice]

Ignore the troll.

[hongkongfooey]

Soup, I was joking:}

wannabee, about 3fitty

[PPRuNeUser0161]

So how's the new eba shaping up?
SN

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I was just reading an article that stated the Hyundai is the only manufacturer of cars that was able to increase sales over the first 7 months of the FY. All other manufacturers went south. People are abandoning traditional brands to go for the cheaper option because times are tough.

This is one thing tiger have in their favour should there be another recession, people will go for the cheaper fare and the airline best situated to offer the cheapest fares is the one with the lowest cost base, TIGER.

I reckeon they would be fools to pull out of OZ. We may be looking at an airline that will add capacity as fast as they can if a recession or downturn hits an stagnates when times are good.
SN

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Tiger in profit two quarters straight!. Things are looking up.
SN

[Sunstar320]

And by the sounds of things, Davis seems very keen in gettting another Tiger subsidiary up and running in Asia somewhere, assuming Thailand or Philippines. Getting the marketshare now is key before AirAsia does, just look at their proposed Vietnam venture. If Tiger was wanting to wait until they were significantly profitable (say 2/3 years away), well AK would have doubled its fleet and would be taking over the region. Very important for Tiger to get in early, even if it means no dividends to be paid/ or using TR/TTs profit to subsidise the new airline. I note there is $10m allocated from the IPO for initial startup costs which was the same as Australia.

The battle between AirAsia and Tiger over the next 5 years is going to be very tough, well Tiger seems to be winning the battle against Jetstar Asia and sounds like it will shift focus to AirAsia now.

[hongkongfooey]

Is Tiger hard up for candidates :confused:
Heard they just hired a DEC who has not flown for 4 years :rolleyes:
I guess it really does'nt matter how old and mouldy that blue shirt is in the closet :hmm:

[Sunfish]

Son's flight this morning just delayed an hour. He has just learned an important lesson.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Yeah. Fly Qantas hey Sunny? :}

[slice]

Yes they must be hard up for candidates. Pprunners will remember our 'good mate' High Altitude and the van that drove itself off the road!:}

Stefan Wood - Learn to fly, Aviation Careers, Get Your Wings at TVSA Flight Training and Aviation School Melbourne Australia (http://www.tvsa.com.au/flying_careers/success_alumni/airlines_pilots/stefan_wood_chief_pilot)

[Darwinism]

"Son's flight this morning just delayed an hour. He has just learned an important lesson."

Yeah, after all, I've never had a late flight with Jetstar/Qantas/Virgin - must be great to be great Sunfish & Enema :ugh:

[captwawa]

Ah High Altitude - those were the days eh slice?

How many boys are having a laugh clicking on the link to see old mate fondling the Tiger.

That pilot shortage was worse than I thought, clearly!

Classic

[3 Holer]

Heard they just hired a DEC who has not flown for 4 years

Nice try Foo bear but I ain't coming out of retirement! :E

[fritzandsauce]

Tiger to drop Adelaide - Alice Springs at the end of April

[hongkongfooey]

Oh come on Holey, a bit of pocket money would'nt hurt would it :ok:

[3 Holer]

I earn more "pocket money" driving a bus for the local Council......AND they pay for my uniform, car parking,lunch and I didn't have to pay $35,000 for my "bus" rating!

I don't have to deal with idiot Managers and I endure zero stress in the job.

You hang in there Fooey in that great career of airline pilot and in 10 years time we'll get together and compare our health and wealth.:ok:

[tourismman]

Looks like 1 nil over Jetstar BNE-ROK.

With Jetstar pulling out of ROK from MAY and Tiger starting late March.

[Going Boeing]

With Jetstar pulling out of ROK from MAY and Tiger starting late March.
Yeah but Joh public is smart enough to look at the total product and will probably elect to fly QantasLink in preference to Tiger. :)

[PPRuNeUser0161]

3 Holer
I must be missing something. Can you tell which council pay's 75K plus $36 per block hour for driving a bus? Because if you can I'm there!

Sure you have to pay for some things as a pilot with Tiger but at some point you have to weigh up how you wan't to spend your time. Each to his own and I don't blame anyone for going with them, its a straight deal, take it or leave it. That goes for the customers as well.
SN

[MrSheffield]

Look at it from an investment point of view.

$28,000 endorsement (Ansett Sim Centre)

$650 intitial uniform cost

$105,000 - $110,000 salary per year (FROM DAY 1) F/O

$60 parking fee per month

$10,000 tax rebate from endorsment

$150 per year replacement shirts

Bring your own lunch

Be home everynight

After 1-2 years (under a year for some)

Salary increases to $170,000 - $180,000

Pay for the extra bar to be put on your jacket $10

After 1 year in the LHS with bus time, suddenly very different position than you were flying a turboprop 2 years prior on $70,000

[Bravo Papa]

Sounds like a no-brainer to me MrSheffield... And considering these growing airlines, such as Tiger and Jetstar are going to be looking for a LOT of pilots over the next year or so the question is.. Why wouldn't you?

[Going Boeing]

Sheff, an additional line on your summation should be:-

Then rue for the rest of your career that you assisted in lowering your future earnings and conditions.

Generally, it's better to take a long term view of career decisions.

[The The]

Or from another view.

Get an apprenticeship, go to tech and become a tradesman - negligible cost

Go to Lowes - buy some stubbies and a flanny - $40

Buy a ute - paint name on side (tax deductable)

Get job building desal plant - $150,000

Travel allowance - $700/wk = total package $200k

Take an esky with your lunch to work - can even have a steel knife.

Save that old pilot uniform for fancy dress parties

Priceless

the age (http://news.theage.com.au/breaking-news-national/deal-secures-150k-for-desal-tradesman-20091224-ldlj.html)

[MrSheffield]

Thanks for the advice Going Boeing. But I know one too many pilots who turned their nose up at LCCs for reasons such as 'dont want to lower conditions for everyone else, im too good for an LCC, I want Qantas or Cathay' and have unfortunately never been offered a gig with their airline of choice, and are still to this day slaving away in GA, now begging for a job with the likes of Jetstar or Tiger.

Point being, yes its good advice to the kids to say no to the conditions offered by LCCs, but be warned - an airline job is not offered every day. hell some don't ever get the offer.

If tiger or jetstar offer 100K+ you cant blame the pilot whos currently on 40K and has 2 kids and a wife to feed for not knockingback the opportunity.

[Going Boeing]

Sheff, I appreciate the polite way that you responded to my post.

Every pilot these days is effectively walking a tightrope as to the best way to further their career - what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another (and I do understand what you said about supporting a wife and two kids - I spent the first 6 months of my Qantas career living in a caravan with my wife and 2 daughters).

When I said to take a long term view about your career decisions, I was thinking about approx 70 DJ pilots and about 15 QF pilots who left their Oz jobs for a career in the sandpit in the period 2006-07. Every pilot wants to have a command and that influences their long term decisions - for the majority the over-riding reason is job satisfaction, for the minority, it's for the money. There have been a number of posts on PPRuNe about why you would become an S/O with QF when you can become an F/O with DJ, JQ or TT. These 3 airlines offer you the immediate job satisfaction of a RHS and the lure of a quick command. The RHS job is there for you if you pay for it, the quick command may or may not eventuate. Quick commands basically depend on an airline expanding and growing its fleet size. My take of what happened and may happen at these airlines is:-

DJ will now have to claw away to earn every % of market share as the glory days post the collapse of AN are well and truly over - they are not going to expand nearly as rapidly as in the past and as the majority of captains are relatively young (thanks to quick commands) they are not going to retire in the near future. The only significant growth that I potentially see for DJ is in the regional market or internationally through V Oz (a very high risk growth area). It appears that the majority of DJ pilots who left for the sandpit in the past were tired of flying the same aircraft type to the same destinations with minimum rest and the lure of flying shiny new B777's/A380's etc to exotic destinations around the world was very strong despite the obvious domestic negatives. If the posts on this forum about pilots currently overseas who are prepared to accept substandard T's & C's to work for any airline that allows them to live in Oz are true, then it appears that many have made a bad decision.

JQ has had a very easy launch into the market in that they were given routes that had been developed by mainline (low yield) and thus grew rapidly (original order 23 A320's). Then they were given A332's from mainline to fly internationally - again most routes were originally developed by mainline. All up it made for spectacular advancement of some careers (ie the ex Impulse pilots) as well as rejuvenating the careers of some ex AN pilots. The problem for any one proposing to join JQ OZ now is that most of the future expansion looks likely to be in the "sibling" airlines - JQ NZ, JQ Asia & JQ Pacific. Thus new hires are in the same position re quick command as if they joined DJ - minimal expansion and minimal retirement.

TT is the only airline that I see still has the potential to expand rapidly - that will only happen if the other airlines allow it to. Domestic flying in Oz can only make a profit if the demand balances the capacity and thus realistic yields are achieved. Most "experts" believe that TT is one airline too many to allow sustainable yields and therefore, the other airlines will keep the pressure on TT to restrict its ability to expand.

Those who believe that becoming a QF S/O is beneath them fail to look at the long term benefits: - Despite taking longer to achieve command, QF pilots have the ability to choose a career path that suits their circumstances. If you enjoy long haul flying which gives great travel opportunities, social life, increased route knowledge, etc, or if you prefer domestic flying to enable you to be home with your wife & kids for more nights, you can choose the aircraft type that gives you the lifestyle that you want by deciding when and what aircraft type you want to do your promotion training on. When you do gain your command, you are then not stuck on that type - you can move to other types or stay on your current type as you choose. By having a choice of aircraft types, you can have variety right through to retirement whereas looking at potential careers in LCC's, many pilots get tempted to move overseas simply to experience a change.

Whichever path you choose I wish you a long and happy career. GB

[PPRuNeUser0161]

GB
QF is being wound back and this will allow JQ to expand for years to come and provide good career progression.

TT has excellent growth potential as they have the lowest cost business model and this has allowed them to tap into a sector of the community that otherwise would not fly. I predict steady growth for them at about one to two new aircraft per year for the next five years. I don't think JQ or VB are in a position to do much damage to Tiger. If they bring on a fare war they had better have deep pockets because TT can break even whilst they lose $Millions. I suspect this is why it has not already happened.

VB has a product that provides a viable cost effective alternative to QF mainline. I think the big loser out of all this is QF, if they didn't have JQ they would be selling planes to stay afloat as we speak.

There are a lot more pilots looking for jobs flying jets than there are positions at QF mainline and the industry has undergone a step change in remuneration. The LLC's are finding out just how little they can pay for aircrew and when they can't get them they will know they have reached that point. It is only then that T & C's will improve. Lets face it though ~100K for an FO and ~180K (TT) for a Captain are both comfortable salary's. Additionally, these carriers have also been around long enough for a new generation of pilots to be applying who have only ever expected to earn what they pay and therefore will not be dissapointed.

At the end of the day there are a lot more jet pilots around now than ever before and the industry has never been in better health jobs wise. So if you want to fly jets now's the time or just choose another vocation.
SN

[A. Le Rhone]

No there AREN'T a lot more jet pilots about. They've all retired or nicked off to Emirates and Ethihad and aren't coming back until they chose to.

CPL issues are at an alltime low and why would anybody want to get into the industry? Before the GFC airlines were having real problems getting qualified pilots but that was just a taste of things to come (and I suspect they know it) - yet they don't seriously invest in training for their own futures.

Barring any future major ecoinomic hiccups, In about 1 year they will start to feel the heat of a pilot shortage and in 2 years will have to throw money and/or vastly iomproved T&C's to attract any pilot with a heartbeat? Who is going to fill the seats of all those aircraft ordered?

[A. Le Rhone]

And NO - 180k is not aacceptable as being a "comfortable" salary for a Captain, particularly when you have to kill yourself to get that. When council bus drivers are getting 130k these figures need to be put into perspective.

The yardstick should be the $380,000 that a QF 744 captain gets - instead of doing our darendest to undermine those QF Captains we should be cohesively arguing that that salary is the datum.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

A
When I say there are more jet pilots I mean there would be more jet pilots in the country today than there were say 10 years ago pre LCC. Of course there are less jet pilots on the street, they are all either retired or in jobs due to the abundance of willing employers.

As for the money well, each for his own.
SN

[Metro man]

Additionally, these carriers have also been around long enough for a new generation of pilots to be applying who have only ever expected to earn what they pay and therefore will not be dissapointed.


Unfortunately this is very true. Only the older pilots I fly with can remember the good days when an airline captains annual wage was more than the cost of an average house, when there was a decent pension scheme and no one even thought of paying for their own endorsement or uniform.

After starving through non award paying GA operators and sitting right seat in the regionals on check out chick money, first year $100 000 and quick progression to $180 000 doesn't look too bad.:(

[Stationair8]

How often does your overweight council bus driver, have a medical, sim ride, go through the hassles of getting an ASIC card, pay for his own training?

[porch monkey]

To tell the whole story tho, to get that kind of money at TT you have to work the full yearly limit to get there. Ask around what doing 900 to 1000 hrs a year is really like.

[speed-brake]

So did the pay claim go through?

[walaper]

Station air 8 the difference is the bus driver didn't have the AFAP negotiating his package:}

[68+iou1]

I personally blame unions for the killing of our industry!
Letts go back 20 years and imagine this? Instead of looking after their mates in the airlines, the unions looked after the people that where being exploited in GA.
Imagine there where fair working conditions for instructors, charter and regional pilots!
I was in GA 20 years ago. I’ve meet corrupt politicians that cared more about our conditions!
Fat cats looking after other Fat Cats!
As an airline pilot now. I think we should start at the bottom, there is going to be a pilot shortage! Make the conditions so good that a GA pilot will think twice about leaving his job. This will increase everyone’s conditions.
Learn for our past mistakes!

[PPRuNeUser0161]

The industry is as vibrant as it is today simply because everyone can afford to fly. Why can they afford to fly? Because of the LCC"s. If we go back to captains on 300K or whatever and f/o's on half that then that will simply increase the cost of flying and exclude a certain sector of society from flying. The contraction of our industry will start and the rot will set in. There can be no going back.

Lets imagine that TT actually fails in Australia. Does anybody actually think that JQ and VB would increase capacity to take up the slack? NO WAY. They will simply up the ticket price and increase yield. The result is a contraction in employment for pilots by 100 or so A320 guy's. Those jobs would be gone and not coming back. This said Tiger actually plays a very important part in the airline scene here.

Most gee-wiz boys and girls get into this profession to fly a jet, anything less will not do. It wouldn't matter how much you paid them to fly scenic's around a rock they still want to fly the jet and if that does not happen they will find some other way to make money. Of course they will winge later in life that the bus driver earns the same or thereabouts without the hassles, but the money doesn't matter that much until you get a bit older, settle down and realise how hard it is to get ahead in life.

Sometimes I think about if I would be happy to pay out 35K for an endo to go fly for an airline. The only thing that stops me is that when you add that to the 75K its cost me to get where I am you are very close to a full fee paying med student's costs and they will eventually earn a whole lot more than any pilot anywhere.
SN

[breakfastburrito]

SN, just look at the Hobart airport pax handling dispute, HBA wants to up this to $12 per pax, then there's the pax charge at the other end.
Sydney charges $14.39 (http://www.sydneyports.com.au/port_operations/?a=10059) per pax for handling & runway charges. Melbourne charges $9.21 (http://www.melbourneairport.com.au/Media/docs/SCHEDULE%20OF%20CHARGES%20APAM%20JUL%202009-f6b4d6a9-08cd-40d5-afa3-2f6db0575c0c-0.pdf)
Calculate the tech crew costs per seat for a SYD-HBA or MEL-HBA sector & compare it to the $20+ airport fee's. This is where the cost of travelling is, taxes & charges, not tech crew costs, even at 300k. Don't let them bluff you.

[Dog One]

Story in the NT press that Tiger are ceasing ops to Alice Springs.

[Goat Whisperer]

" Story in the NT press that Tiger are ceasing ops to Alice Springs."

seems they forgot the MEL-ASP flight. Still taking bookings at this stage.

[boocs]

Can we get back to Tiger info??

What about that rumour Tiger were going to operate A330's and 340's....

b.

[Icarus2001]

Sorry for the continued thread drift but this needs answering.

If we go back to captains on 300K or whatever and f/o's on half that then that will simply increase the cost of flying and exclude a certain sector of society from flying.

Yes it will but by how much?

A Captain on 180K pa flying 900 hours pa costs 200 per hour
A Captain on 300K pa flying 900 hours pa costs 333 per hour

Say 150 passengers...divide in the hourly rate...$1.33 versus $2.00

Obviously for more passengers the effect is even less.

Now when you are burning THOUSANDS of DOLLARS of fuel per hour does $133 extra for the Captain really affect the bottom line that much?

Of course factor in an FO on higher wages too but the effect still pales into insignificance compared to depreciation, fuel, maintenance and fixed overheads.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Breakfasburrito
I see where your coming from with the calc's, had done them myself. Whilst it depends on how you look at it the biggest problem is that we have wannabees willing to hock themselves for a lifetime to fly jets. Additionally jet pilots (captains) still get paid a whole lot more than a GA captain. So where is this going? I don't know.

I do know that if your chasing cash then the jets is where its at even considering todays much reduced packages over yesteryear. The LCC is here to stay because they can.
SN

[rodney rude]

A council bus driver on $130k per year - is that a joke?????

[Muff Hunter]

130,000 is rubbish,

Check out any employment website and it shows bus drivers recieve around 15-25 per hour depending on experience.

Also, I lived with a bus driver and he was only getting around 55k with o/t..

Still more than a REX FO though :mad::mad:

[porch monkey]

As always, to make a point, people quote the highest or best figure. Yes, you can make well over 100 gorillas a year as a coach driver. But only the best need apply. That is the top of the tree. The average wage? After you take into consideration ALL the coach/bus drivers, most of whom are on less that 50, then the actual average is a helluva lot less than that 100+. Having said that, why are we even comparing the 2 occupations? The bodgie was wrong and a fool. Let's not perpetuate the myth by using the comparison ourselves.......

[DeltaT]

From the list of expenses I saw laid out before how much/what items can be claimed back from the tax dept?

Not sure how you get the figure of 10K back on the 28K rating either???
Is that even possible seeing as you have to get the rating to GET the job as opposed to it being PART of the job?

[Wally Mk2]

I agree 'DT"

I spoke to my accountant just recently about this very thing & he showed me Tax rulings to the effect that the course costs are not claimable if they are outside yr 'current' activities meaning if you fly for Joe Blogs using PA31's etc that an A/C endo of the likes of an A320 is considered outside & therefore not claimable.
Also to gain another position such as a job with J* or Tig's for Eg by getting such a rating then that also is not allowed for the claiming of tax deductions.
If the endo is to improve yr current work activities then it would be claimable.This is the way I read it as per the ATO's paperwork..........bumma for all those hoping.

Then again I guess you can ask the ATO for a private ruling on such matters & if they say no then that's that but if they say yes then they (ATO) have no come back on you during a tax audit for Eg sometime latter.

Obviously all of the above is just the way I see it & one should seek independent advice for their own circumstances:-)

Keep saving those receipts for pencils etc:ok:

Wmk2

[NavLites]

You are correct, Wally MK 2, it is the same with all educational courses.

You can ONLY claim it if it has a direct relevance to your role in that tax year. For example, if you want to educate yourself in any manner, it cannot be 'in the hope of a better job' it has to be to help you in your current role.

I guess this stops people doing course after course and claiming it back.

I hit this wall a few years ago!:rolleyes:

[Wally Mk2]

Tnxs 'Nav' It's pretty much what my guy said whom I have known for many a year who is/was an ex ATO Accountant so I guess I trust his judgment on such matters.

Now if I could only get the RFDS to operate a heavy Jet then such an Endo would be relevant, ...ahhh I love the smell of 2 stroke in da mornin'...............tell 'em he's dreamin'!:E


Wmk2

[George Bush]

Get yourself a better accountant who can work / interpret the rules to your advantage.

Got 16K return from 36k paid. therefore net cost of rating was 20K. I know others who have done the same.

[galdian]

GB et al

Still thought any "misunderstanding" still rested with the taxpayer if questions asked/an audit invoked regardless of advice of accountant - hence your signature on the piece of paper.

Things changed??

Cheers
galdian

[hongkongfooey]

Get yourself a better accountant who can work / interpret the rules to your advantage.
Got 16K return from 36k paid. therefore net cost of rating was 20K. I know others who have done the same.

A few points :

If you search enough for the right accountant, you will one that will claim anything. In this day and age of self assesment, it is not his problem, you can pretty much claim anything, and when you sign the return the responsibility is all yours to prove the claim is valid ( for 5 years )
As already mentioned above the rule is black and white, the only grey is what Jetstar and ( I think VB ) guys have used and that is they have a signed contract in their hand stating they need the rating as part of their conditions of employment, according to Simon Luton ( AFAP tax lawyer ) this is sufficient, do Tiger give you a work contract/agreement prior to you getting the endo ? If the answer is no, you could be in a world of hurt :ouch: It does'nt matter how many guys ahve gotten away with it, if you're the poor schmuck that gets caught its a 100% fine plus interest...ouch
I'm pretty sure " I know others who have done the same " won't stand up in court or at the ATO audit.

As an aside, the ATO has challenged 2-3 AFAP members ( all VB I think ) and the ATO lost with their usual statement " this does not set a precedence "

Galdian, spot on, the accountant has zero accountability ( no pun intended ) " yes your honour, jo bloggs told me that his claim was legit and see, he signed here "
The accountant will be glad to help you out though if you get an audit, at $200/hr.

Delta, the amount you get back will depend on your income in the year you claim, if you were in the top tax bracket you would get about 46% back

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I have read the tax legislation on this subject. Stretching the parameters, look at it in a broad sense, forget when you started employment with tiger and when you actually did the endo, add a portion of hope and you may get away with it. Look out if you get an audit though.

As I see it its a no go. Would I try it on? Absolutely in the hope of no audit. I know of plenty who have claimed it and hopefully they don't get audited.

I would love to hear from anyone who has been taken employment under these circumstances and subsequently been audited just to know what happened.
SN

[DeltaT]

Sorry, hope this isn't seen as thread drift but it is directly related to the airline...
So if you do the salary sacrifice deal Tiger is offering for the rating isn't that rather hard for the Tax Dept to get out of, seeing as the employer is actually making the deductions?
Or have some of you gone else where for the rating as you found a cheaper course and so paid lump sum?

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Delta
So far as i'm aware only Jetstar and VB offer salary sacrifice endo's. Tiger you pay upfront. Maybe they have changed this?
SN

[ARNTU]

Hopefully a short term fix to an aircraft shortage as Tiger increases East Coast sectors. Should see VB flying back into the red centre (fingers crossed)

[speed-brake]

I hear OOL base announcement very shortly. Commencing this Spring/Summer.

[DeltaT]

From the Tiger website:
A320 rating, and experience, is a definite advantage however Tiger Airways does operate a self-sponsored training program for pilots not qualified on type.

Hmm, can anyone clarify if this is salary sacrifice or lump sum pay up front?

[George Bush]

it is a salary sacrafice, however i beleive that option is no longer available.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

GB
I know quite a few chaps in tiggrrr and none have been offered salary sacrifice for training or otherwise. Although all have done their endo's in the last 18 months.
SN

[psycho joe]

I spoke to my accountant just recently about this very thing & he showed me Tax rulings to the effect that the course costs are not claimable if they are outside yr 'current' activities meaning if you fly for Joe Blogs using PA31's etc that an A/C endo of the likes of an A320 is considered outside & therefore not claimable.
Also to gain another position such as a job with J* or Tig's for Eg by getting such a rating then that also is not allowed for the claiming of tax deductions.
If the endo is to improve yr current work activities then it would be claimable.This is the way I read it as per the ATO's paperwork..........bumma for all those hoping.


I'd suggest that you change accountants.

on a $30k Rating you can get around $15-19k back by spreading the return over 5 years.

As it's a one off bit of training it is considered a capital expense & therefore claimable. But you need to go to an accountant that specialises in aviation & has bothered to keep up with all the relevant amendments.:ok:

Problem is that Tax "accountants" aren't necessarily qualified accountants & may only have a cert IV or some such thing. Which may be adequate for most wage slave lodgements until something out of the ordinary comes along such as an aviation rating / endorsement etc. The "accountant" then has to go to the ATO for advice. The ATO, being a government department, is not unlike certain other gov departments that pilot's would be familiar with; In so far as no individual will commit to a decision, the stock standard answer is NO, or TOO HARD, and the person giving the advice may not know their elbow from their a:mad:hole, (taxationially speaking). So your "accountant", rather than waste more precious time (money) on you, is going to give you a negative answer.:(

Better to spend the extra money for a qualified accountant who specialises in this stuff.:8

Galdian, spot on, the accountant has zero accountability ( no pun intended ) " yes your honour, jo bloggs told me that his claim was legit and see, he signed here "


Not exactly. That's a bit like saying that if you willingly crash an aeroplane into the ground, the powers that be will nail the accountant sitting in row 23D. "Your honour, we can prove that the accountant ticked the little box when purchasing his ticket online, thus absolving the pilot of all responsibility."

[Al E. Vator]

Might be wrong but I've heard that EVEN rated pilots are bonded for $10,000-15,000 as a 'training' fee.

Is that correct?

If true, for an airline that will be needing many pilots to fill their 30-50 aircraft, this seems like a stupid concept particularly when you then have to work like a trojan to get what other airlines regard as a base salary.

[Wally Mk2]

"PJ" yr comments are fair enough. I'm happy with my Accountant (he's an ex ATO man) & I have been with him for many years now working as a plane 'driver', know him well trust him well & will go with what he says. Remember accountants like pilots are not infallible both professions (if you can call a pilot a real profession) have 'read' things the wrong way with ugly consequences.
He gave me a copy of the Tax laws on this subject & I too read it that it's not claimable (although there are area's that are 'grey') but like everything in life some get away with it some don't. I'd rather have peace of mind not wondering if the Tax man knocks on my door one day to say..."plz explain".
Self funded endo's are the way of the future I guess.

Wmk2

[hongkongfooey]

Delta, salary sacrifice is definitely koshure, once you are employed by the company it is legit.

As it's a one off bit of training it is considered a capital expense & therefore claimable

Ironicically you quote the part of the law that is exactly the reason you can't claim it. A capital expenditure of 30K when you are currently a PA31 pilot is a bogus claim, you don't need to be any type of accountant to work that one out.

Not exactly. That's a bit like saying that if you willingly crash an aeroplane into the ground, the powers that be will nail the accountant sitting in row 23D. "Your honour, we can prove that the accountant ticked the little box when purchasing his ticket online, thus absolving the pilot of all responsibility."

WTF ?? what little box online do you tick that basically says you absolve the airline/pilot from all responsibility of getting you to your destination safely, must've missed that one :confused:
Conversely, you do actually sign your tax return ( try reading it next time ) saying that ( in as many words ) that you can substantiate all claims, it is their in B&W. Even when you use an accountant you are " self assessing ", you are ultimately responsible not the accountant. They have audit insurance because if the ATO comes after you, its you, not the accountant they are after.

Just remember punters, pilots make the worst financial advisors, in the ATOs eyes you are guitly until proven innocent, the fine is 100% plus interest, and just because all your mates got away with it, does'nt mean you will. Oh, and you have 5 years to sweat it out.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

As I read the gaf from the ATO, if Tiggrrr were to supply you with a letter of offer of emplyment stating your start date and that you must obtain the endo for the offer to be valid, the grey areas become black and white.

Of course you must commence to claim the endo in the tax year you actually undertake the training. From what I can gather they are none too willing in this area.
SN

[psycho joe]

Of course you must commence to claim the endo in the tax year you actually undertake the training.

No you don't.
:ugh:
pilots make the worst financial advisors,

Probably the wisest words ever written!:D

Spending 5 minutes on an aviation forum doesn't make you a Pilot, but;

Spending 5 minutes on the ATO website makes every Pilot an accountant.:ugh:

[Sunfish]

Why anyone would even consider working for Tiger after watching "Airways"? The idea that this is stable employment just amazes me.

[Darwinism]

"Why anyone would even consider working for Tiger after watching "Airways"?"

Because what you're seeing on TV is Aero-Care, not Tiger.

Very few Tiger employees have featured on this series for one reason or another.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

I did catch the show last night. I must admit it makes things a bit hard if you can't connect when the first flight is delayed. So why is this the case, is it because they don't have enough aircraft or don't want to do connections full stop? Do the other carriers guarantee your connection?

I think the reason for the show is to educate the public on what to expect when flying super LCC. Maybe things will get better when more aircraft arrive or perhaps they will all be 100% tasked.

PJ. Your accountant is obviously the best aviation accountant because he told you that you can deduct your endo legally. Others say different, at the end of the day when someone gets an audit its the ATO and AAT that will have the final say. I'm not saying that will go either way, i'm just saying that my adviser has raised enough doubt so as to proceed with caution and if you expect to lose, if audited, you won't be dissapointed.
SN

[psycho joe]

PJ. Your accountant is obviously the best aviation accountant because he told you that you can deduct your endo legally. Others say different, at the end of the day when someone gets an audit its the ATO and AAT that will have the final say. I'm not saying that will go either way, i'm just saying that my adviser has raised enough doubt so as to proceed with caution and if you expect to lose, if audited, you won't be dissapointed.
SN

You may be right I'm the first to admit I'm no tax accountant. And if, as one of the most highly taxed citizens in the world, you choose to give the Federal Government an extra $15-19k, that's your perogative. Personally I think that money looks better as a Ducati.... Hmm, maybe not. ...Just a second......Yeah, no it definately looks better as a Ducati:E

But consider that if you do claim for a rating then you're certainly not Robinson Carusoe either. Many many many people have made claims, some have been audited, none are in jail (:ugh:). Does the ATO reserve the right to change their mind on the matter? Of course they do. Just as CASA reserves the right to pull AOC's, Licences etc. Although I would suggest that after all these years there may be a statute of limitations issue if they (ATO) did? Then again why wouldn't they allow a rating as a deduction? A job requiring a $30k Jet rating would have you paying around $20-30k / year to the ATO in income tax as an FO. :*

[PPRuNeUser0161]

PJ
Agree with you there. At no point have I said I would not claim it, I would and under all circumstances. I would however be prepared that, if audited, it would depend on my specific circumstances whether or not I would have to pay it back. In other words I would not spend the refund for at least 5 years.

None of the cases challenged by the ATO match my circumstances exactly so its a bit of an unknown for me. I am not aware of anyone having to pay it back. I would undertaking the endo at a time that lines up as many legislated conditions as possible to give me the best chance of winning should I be audited. Then again at this point I am staying where I'm at, so won't concern me anyhow.
SN

[ringer2008]

I have to admit. I have tried everywhere, Does ANYONE know where you can actually speak to a person about pilot employment with Tiger????

[tiptoeturkey]

A change of CEO at Tiger Aus

Ms Shelley Roberts has moved over for Mr Crawford Rix.

Well done Shelley, appreciate what you have done for the operation.
Short but sweet, best of luck in your future.
Hope you keep in touch.
Thanks

[speed-brake]

Shelley is burnt out, end of story. Getting Tiger into profit was one big job, would have been quite stressful also considering the shocking position Tiger was in when she joined. Tiger wouldn't be in Sydney if she wasn't around, and obviously they wouldn't have been chasing all these big traffic routes if it wasn't for her decision making.

Newbie on the block will be interesting.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Well it looks as if things are settling down at Tiger. A new CEO presumably to take the show to the next level. It will be interesting to see if they can stay profitable as they continue to expand, now that they are listed the shareholders will expect performance.

I do however think they need a little work in the customer service area especially the connecting flights. They would be losing a lot of customers who can't be assured of the connections or later flights when the first is delayed, this is the place for them to concentrate on as the fleet grows. The other thing is can the liesure market take them through a downturn? They need better depatch reliability otherwise they are focusing on too small a sector of the market. Lots to do I think.
SN

[Okie]

Ringer2008
Two big questions, are you A320 qualified and do you have the right to work in Australia?

[mohikan]

Just goes to show that if you no nothing about aviation, but are a CEO, things will catch up with you........

"Tiger Airways names new local boss
ANDREW HEASLEY
March 24, 2010 - 2:18PM
In a surprise development, Tiger Airways has announced a new boss to head its Australian operations to replace its local managing director, Shelley Roberts, who helped set up the discount airline and has steered its rapid growth.

''Shelley has established Tiger Airways Australia as a major national airline, and led it from infancy to profitability,'' Tiger Airways Holdings Group chief executive Tony Davis has announced.

''She intends to take a well deserved break. We would like to thank her and wish her continued success in her future endeavours,'' he said.

Replacing Ms Roberts is Crawford Rix, the managing director of no-frills UK airline ''bmibaby''.

Tiger Airways said the changing of the guard was amicable.

''I’m proud of what we’ve achieved as a company and I’m working with the company to set up the next person in the role as best as I possibly can,'' Ms Roberts said.

Unlike Virgin Blue, which signalled the departure of its long-time chief executive Brett Godfrey months before his departure, Tiger announced the changes simultaneously.

Ms Roberts' handover to Mr Rix is expected to take months.

Spokeswoman Vanessa Regan said it was ''obviously better announce a resignation at the same time as you’ve got a new appointment to go with it, which is why it wasn’t announced previously.''

Tiger Airways chief executive Tony Davis lauded the Australian operations to investors when the company released its latest financial results through the Singapore stock exchange last month.

''Tiger Airways Australia has been profitable for two successive quarters, proving that our Australian business has exited the start-up phase at a faster pace compared to the Singapore business, and is well positioned for growth going forward.''

Mr Davis announced the airline group’s 2009 third-quarter profit of $S14.1 million ($11 million) on February 25.

Mr Rix had brought bmibaby ''to the top position in the UK in terms of reliability and punctuality among low cost carriers,'' Mr Davis said.

These are two areas where Tiger in Australia has struggled.

Tiger came last among the major and regional domestic airlines for punctuality last month, according to latest figures on airline operational performance from the Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics.

In February, Tiger managed only 78.2 per cent of departures on time, and 77.6 per cent of flights arriving on time, significantly under the industry averages of 85.3 and 83.2 per cent respectively.

It also had the equal second-highest rate of cancellations (with Virgin Blue) at 1.1 per cent of flights, above the industry average of 0.9 per cent.

Mr Rix, who is in the UK, was ''relocating to Melbourne with his family over the coming months''.

Mr Davis lauds his airline's ''relentless focus on cost containment''.

Indeed, Tiger Airways Australia’s corporate nerve centre operates from what looks like old army cadet barracks on the grounds of Melbourne Airport, with furniture and office equipment that looks like it was bought from a garage sale.

[email protected]"

[Sunstar320]

Boned? She turned the company around from 50mill loss to currently profitable...But id say there probably is more to this story as there always seems to be with tiger.

From what I heard she struggled with the operational side of the airline but was very good with the commercial side of things (making the company money). Explains the crap service though :hmm:

[galdian]

Reckon Sunstar320 has fair comment dodgy, feel you're being severe.

"she's crap" ...what, as opposed to the smooth styling, gentle encouragement, inclusive management style et al of Mr Geoff "...anyone who gets between me and my yearly miniscule bonus for flogging my guts out for this mob is dead meat..." Dixon??

IMHO when you have a Chief Pilot like KB (no secret from previous posts I have a lot of time for Ken) you seriously listen to his advice...and act contrary to it at your own peril.
As an example - Tiger startup roster was guarenteed 5 on - 2 off - 5 on - 4 off pattern, predictible and VERY popular ie troops happy!
SR tinkled with it - against the thoughts/advice of many/all - not sure if any positive gains but seems negative fallout.

Rule # 1252: "If it aint broke, don't fix it"....rings a bell.

cheers
galdian

[MrSheffield]

Anyone know if the current managing director resigned or was she asked to leave. If so, for what reasons?

[B772]

Rumour has it the current MD was swanning around in the Qantas Club prior to a QF departure a number of months ago. I wonder why she was flying QF and to where ?.

[Sunstar320]

Rumour has it the current MD was swanning around in the Qantas Club prior to a QF departure a number of months ago. I wonder why she was flying QF and to where ?.
Probaly Brisbane Airport. Could be a new port? Who knows!

[DeltaT]

Its a new Managing Director, not CEO

[Metro man]

Rumour has it the current MD was swanning around in the Qantas Club prior to a QF departure a number of months ago. I wonder why she was flying QF and to where ?.

Possibly going to a place where Tiger don't yet fly, or fly to but the times weren't suitable.

Possibly having a look at what the competition are up to.;)

[Sunstar320]

Tiger Australia is returning to Darwin from Melbourne with a daily frequency, mabye Adelaide too?. More interested to see if Tiger Singapore does though. It was a route that had its ups and downs from Singapore and JQ seems to have alot of capacity on the route relying on connections.

I guess they could base a further 1/2 A320's at Melbourne now considering that one heads off to Darwin and the other Perth overnight when the new schedules start.

[teresa green]

Please tell me why the company allow that cr%p on TV to go ahead. I had never seen it before but had to endure it the other night as I was outvoted. How does your ground staff seen arguing with a bunch of bogans do anything for you, or for the airline????? its cr%p! bad publicity and humilating for your staff. I cannot imagine any other airline allowing it. Crazy.

[Trevor the lover]

BYE BYE BANT - p!ss off and good riddance. Now maybe you'll have some time to work off some of that ample lard arse you've been dragging around for so long.

Tiptoe Turkey and Sunstar 320 - seriously, if World War 2 had a PPRUNE, you guys would have congratulated Hitler for giving it a go, thanked him for the competition, and wished him best of luck for his next endeavours.

[B772]

I hear Wendy Hazelton will operate the first Tiger service into BNE on Sun 28 March.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Teresa Green
"Bogans" ha ha ha, I reckon your spot there old son. No wonder trouble stirs up with pax like that. Some people just should not be allowed to fly!

Good luck to Tiggrrr I say, best for the future with the new MD. I have a feeling they'll be around for longer than some think.
SN

[ringer2008]

okie

no im not rated on a320. im rated on 747-400 and 737. and yes i am australian. cheers

[cunninglinguist]

Ringer2008
Two big questions, are you A320 qualified and do you have the right to work in Australia

And the most important question of all, did you used to work for Ansett :} If the answer to this little gem is yes, nothing else seems to matter.

[Okie]

Tiger Australia FO pay, 100K-110K gross.

[PPRuNeUser0161]

Checked out the latest offer by the company, 175K for the Capt and 100.5K for the FO. Out of this you pay LOL cover, uniform, medical, asic, car parking and you don't get paid if taking up to six days URTI. Super to be capped for calculation purposes at 141K max. No other bonuses to be paid. Works out approx $160,369.00 for the chief and $89,810.00 for his pupil. No increases offered for four years either. So you will earn less in four years than you do now. I'm not sure what the current pay is but I believe this must surely be a backward step. All for the price of an endo.

Where will it end, there are quite a few GA jobs around that earn a lot more than they are offering the FO and some with very good salary packaging and security of employment. Jets must be good thats all I can say!
SN

[PPRuNeUser0161]

GB
So do all fo's who start before the next eba get the 20k after three years service or is it only those who have been there since the start?

So I guess nobody wants to step into the rep's role for fear of being targeted?
SN