BA Pilot Ballot results [Archive] - Page 2

Fake Sealion

27th Feb 2008, 08:30

I recognise the wind-up merchants for what they are, and am tempted to follow Tandemrotor's advice. There isn't anything more to be said until the results of the conciliation meetings are known.

Totally agree! I have been very closely following this thread as an Easter period BA long haul ticket holder. :bored:This thread in the past 48hrs has just repeated the pilots case again and again. We know their views - 86% of them endorsed it last week !!!! Lets now wait for any OFFICIAL announcement following the current (?) concilliation talks.

Only then will there be something additional and meaningful to say.

nebpor

27th Feb 2008, 10:00

I may as well ad that the SAME people are still doing 'the job' but now they work for Aviance.

Meantimes, at GLA, the guys and gals plug away as usual- do a good job- and seem not to mind whose badge they wear.

Is their a lesson there? :rolleyes:

I beg to differ. As a weekly BA passenger from Glasgow the service has deterioated to the point that people are now actively changing airline - the staff on the desks, at the gate and in the lounge are borderline incompetent and a completely different set of staff from those employed by BA. The poor cabin crews take it in the neck every week as we all get on and complain about the poor in-airport service.

I'll be supporting any action by BA staff, even though I'm likely to end up on the receiving end of the disruption.

This country has few union rights left - glad to see them being used when appropriate.

MrBunker

27th Feb 2008, 10:04

Nebpor,

Thank you. I quite agree the outsourcing of our frontline staff has only impacted on one person, you the customer. Thanks also for your support. Trust me when I say that, despite my determination, we do not use these options lightly. They are very much a tool of last resort and reluctantly employed as such.

BarbiesBoyfriend

27th Feb 2008, 11:49

Nebpor

Thanks for that. What a shame.

Personally, I much prefer it to EDI as a pax- and greatly prefer it to EDI as crew but I'm sure what you say is correct.:sad:

KC135777

27th Feb 2008, 15:25

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkZsPjQp3CM&NR=1

KC135777

27th Feb 2008, 17:31

APA's brand new press release:

ALLIED PILOTS ASSOCIATION EXPRESSES “UNEQUIVOCAL SUPPORT” FOR BRITISH AIRWAYS PILOTS IN OUTSOURCING DISPUTE

Fort Worth, Texas (February 27, 2008)—The Allied Pilots Association (APA), collective bargaining agent for the 12,000 pilots of American Airlines (NYSE: AMR), expressed its “unequivocal support” for British Airways’ pilots in the ongoing outsourcing dispute at the UK carrier.

British Airways has announced a new, stand-alone airline named OpenSkies scheduled to operate between New York and Paris beginning in June, using a single Boeing 757 configured with 82 seats in premium business, business and coach classes. Further plans call for six 757s by the end of next year. Pilots for OpenSkies will not be drawn from the existing British Airways pilots’ seniority list.

“As far as outsourcing is concerned, the British Airways pilots’ struggle is our struggle,” said APA President Captain Lloyd Hill. “Accordingly, we have pledged a broad range of support to our fellow pilots at British Airways, including personnel and financial resources, to help resist plans by their airline’s management to establish an alter ego operation.”

Eighty-six percent of British Airways pilots recently voted to authorize a strike in response to management’s plans for OpenSkies. A strike would be the first in almost 30 years for British Airways pilots.

“Our pilots have experienced firsthand the career damage brought about by outsourcing,” Hill said. “We stand foursquare behind our British Airways colleagues in their efforts to stop this threat to our collective livelihoods.”

Vino Collapso

27th Feb 2008, 22:20

What routes are OS supposed to be operating....oh yes....Europe main airports to th USA.

If they were to succeed would this impact on American carriers payloads?

Hmmmmm!

overstress

27th Feb 2008, 23:12

Sorry, collapso - the flaw in your "hmmmm" is that this is going to happen anyway, the Americans recognise it, they just don't want us to be sold down the river like they were.

KC135777

28th Feb 2008, 03:14

Yo Grasshopper,
What part of "APA... expressed its “unequivocal support” for British Airways’ pilots" don't you understand?

wobble2plank

28th Feb 2008, 08:34

I also seem to remember that 'Ronnie' offered 'Maggie' the unequivocal use of a full American Carrier battle group for the Falklands conflict.

Which was rejected by Maggie who stated that 'Britain can reclaim what is hers on her own'.

Now what is your point?

Tandemrotor

28th Feb 2008, 08:46

KC135777

Not sure how much of this thread you have been following, however...

You should be made aware that many posters have emerged from nowhere, and created identities simply to post on THIS thread. A BA manager has been caught using multiple FALSE identites to have conversations with himself! here. (Needless to say - NOT in support of the pilots!)

As these are anonymous forums, you may like to view Flying Grasshopper's join date and posting history, and draw suitable conclusions. Things aren't always what they seem!:rolleyes:

In the meantime, we The Pilots of BA are grateful for your support, both in our disagreement, and also in this increasingly bizarre corner of cyberspace!

But I'm hoping you will hear virtually nothing from us here.

For the moment! :)

Megaton

28th Feb 2008, 08:52

Fortunately Grasshopper's grasp of history is as tenuous as his understanding of the current situation. I really do hope he/she isn't a BA manager because we really would be in trouble then!

Fake Sealion

28th Feb 2008, 09:42

I bet APA support will not extend to refusing to fly aeroplanes with BA pax rebooked on American carriers in the event of BALPA industrial action, the support will prove to be very hollow in such an event. The Americans will be laughing all the way to the bank, I suspect the US support will be similar to that showed by them during the Falklands conflict.

IN PRACTICE - should there be industrial action, EVERY US Carrier flight from UK to US and US to UK will have any number of "re-booked" BA ticket holders on board.

So, what do they do ? Refuse to fly because there are some "ex BA" pax on their aircraft. Same goes for every other carrier to/from UK.

Somehow doubt the "support" will run that deep?

But...you never know?

Fake Sealion

28th Feb 2008, 11:59

Timesonline.co.uk business section reports today that concilliation talks are due to begin March 3rd. It also reports APA support and hints that AA flights may also be affected by any industrial action.

If both sides are so determined to find a solution, as they reported last Friday, why the 10 day delay in commencing talks? If there is common ground why not discuss it without delay?

What have BA management been doing to resolve this dispute since Friday....hardly represents determination to reach an amicable agreement does it?:ugh:

The travelleing public must be bewildered and getting really, really hacked off now:*

Fargoo

28th Feb 2008, 12:47

There's a statement on the intranet to the effect that until negotiations via ACAS have concluded there will be no further statements.
Talks begin March 3rd, lets hope an amicable agreement is made that avoids the need to upset our valuable customers yet again.

Minge Magnet

28th Feb 2008, 13:36

Dont hold your breath :}

Hand Solo

28th Feb 2008, 15:35

I see that as per usual a number of posters have completely missed the point about unequivocal support. I don't think any BA pilot would expect another airlines pilots to refuse to fly just because BA pax have been booked onto their flights. If BA can get them all away on another airlines flights then great. Our beef is with the management, not the passengers. I did notice that Pacamacks previous suggestion that our American colleagues are supporting the strike because it benefits them looks strikingly similar to a claim made by a senior shorthaul manager on our company intranet!:hmm:

pacamack

28th Feb 2008, 15:48

I think you've got the wrong man. I haven't made any comments on this forum with respect to AA or any other US carriers :bored:.

Amigoflyer

28th Feb 2008, 19:34

It is not in APA's interest for Open Skies to be successful as you know the British will always take away your customers through superior cabin service over US carriers.It is not in BA pilots' interest for Open Skies to be successful either as you know the Open Skies will take away BA main lines' customers, then the main line BA will shrink eventually in the future.

IT IS IN BA MANAGEMENT'S BEST INTEREST FOR OPEN SKIES TO BE SUCCESSFUL.

So you can get a big bonus, right Grasshopper?

Minge Magnet

28th Feb 2008, 20:56

pacamac is ther any difference between "this forum" and the "company" one hand solo refers to ?
I am confused.

pacamack

28th Feb 2008, 21:08

So am I. I've only ever posted on this one and none of it was about AA.

KC135777

28th Feb 2008, 21:49

The green insect is clearly out of touch with the real issue here.

He thinks that when BA's rebooked passengers fly on US airlines, that BA pilots are hurt, and BA mngmnt is not hurt. WRONG.

BA mngmnt is hurt when BA airplanes don't move. If their passengers move on other carriers, their cash cow ceases...and their passengers get accommodated. Good for passengers- Good for BA pilots- Bad for BA mngmnt.

That should get them to the table, rather quickly- either before (if they're smart) or shortly after those airplanes stop moving.

In 11/1993, APA supported the AA flight attendants. The two groups met, and the flight attendants KNEW if there were no passengers on board- the pilots could fly all the airplanes, burn all the fuel, eat all the meals (whew!), etc... and it wouldn't hurt them. And, with the SCABs being minimal, what few airplanes that did have passengers-well, that was insignificant. And, that's exactly what happened.

This has NOTHING to do with patriotic, nationalistic garbage that the green insect is attempting to insert into the BALPA-BA issue. This is about SCOPE, and the protection of the BA pilot's profession. Iraq, Falklands....ridiculous diversion attempt, insect.

Amigoflyer

28th Feb 2008, 23:03

Great point KC135777:D

aligee

29th Feb 2008, 01:40

:ugh: I 'm a busy mental health nurse in the NHS and if my employers announced that they had this great idea to open a new unit a few miles down the road but would only employ new staff on different terms to the current poor salary we earn, then i would be alarmed too.Good luck to Everyone involved in this avoidable debacle and rest assured that for every fare paying passenger BA lose another ten will back the rebuff of this ill advised venture.:ok:

pingopango

29th Feb 2008, 09:38

aligee, the new pilots are getting worse terms.

900

29th Feb 2008, 18:52

BA pilots balk at market forces.
It's quite amusing really - well would be if they weren't also (many of them at least) shareholders of other businesses expecting those to be run prudently and managed efficiently.
OK, when is howling at the moon acceptable behaviour?

Tandemrotor

29th Feb 2008, 19:26

The overwhelming majority (virtually all!) of 900's posts over the 14 months since he registered this particular identity, are connected with the pilot's strike, the BA cabin crew strike, and BA IR issues. (All derogatory!)

Virtually NO posts on ANY other subject!!!

How bizarre!!!

ZeBedie

29th Feb 2008, 19:47

I work for a competing LoCo, but say GOOD LUCK to the BA pilots. Nobody goes on strike for nothing. They go on strike because they're pushed into it by greedy pig headed management.

Stoic

29th Feb 2008, 20:15

BA pilots balk at market forces.Surely not? BA pilots use a perfectly legal tactic to plan to withdraw their labour collectively if their employer tries to undermine their working conditions.

Do you, 900, believe that workers should bid down to the lowest price in competition with each other?

If I go to court, I prefer to have a properly rewarded QC to represent me. If I go to Australia, I prefer to have a properly rewarded pilot to fly me.

You are right that it is a market and BA's pilots are, in my opinion, intelligently acting together to protect their position in the market place.

Kind regards

Stoic

Heffer

29th Feb 2008, 20:54

Its just over a week since the ballot result announcement... any word on progress made between BA/BALPA?

KC135777

29th Feb 2008, 20:55

"run prudently and managed efficiently."

Excuse me, while I go throw up, but I think Stoic responded correctly.
The public (whether they fully realize it, or not) NEEDS appropriately
compensated cockpit crews. The public NEEDS the best and the brightest
competing for the major airline pilot jobs. Those NEEDS, are based on
getting from point A to point B safely.

If the airline pilots (and pilot groups) of the world continue "racing to the
bottom" for their wages and work rules (T&Cs), the public need of safety
WILL be compromised. The best and brightest will look at other professions
for their careers. Alternative careers WILL pull them away from aviation.
Once we get to "anyone can be a pilot", there will be less safety, period.
Automation is good, but sometimes not available during emergencies. Pilots
HAVE to be ready and able, to handle "surprises". This is not a truck or bus
or car- we're talking about. Skill, experience and judgment (ie..intelligence)
will ALWAYS be required. AND, a high level of all of these traits, to ensure
the safest movement of aircraft.

Yes, you want an appropriately compensated, HIGHLY SKILLED lawyer to represent you.

Yes, you want an appropriately compensated, HIGHLY SKILLED surgeon to operate on you.

Yes, you want an appropriately compensated, HIGHLY SKILLED pilot to safely fly you from point A to point B.

"appropriately compensated" vs. "managed efficiently"?

I GUARANTEE that pilots have the public's safety as their #1 priority while
doing their job. (their life is ALWAYS on the line-every day they go to work)

I GUARANTEE that management, while sitting behind the safety of their desk
and/or boardroom doors, weighs the "costs of safety" in their attempts at
"managing efficiently". This process GUARANTEES compromises. Pilots are
rightly disgusted when safety gets compromised.

Thus the fight to protect what was, continues.

Ray D'Avecta

1st Mar 2008, 06:42

Anyone know how this whole Open Skies thing will impact cabin crew? Are they in the same situation as the pilots re common seniority lists, secondments, etc? Are the Cabin Crew unions doing anything about it?

pacamack

1st Mar 2008, 07:25

best and the brightest competing for the major airline pilot jobs

which is possible under a meritocratic system but fundamentally flawed under a seniority based system.

OS salaries are market competitive, they're just not BA competitive.

Stoic

1st Mar 2008, 08:16

No doubt you are aware of the Peter Principle:

The theory that employees within an organization will advance to their highest level of competence and then be promoted to and remain at a level at which they are incompetent.Pilots are checked for their competence several times a year. Airline managers are not, but depend on their ability and their political skill to survive and rise in the organisation.

Because they are regularly tested and checked, pilots rise to their level of competence. They are certified competent. Other non-operational employees in the organisation are not.

If you introduce, what you claim is a meritocratic system into an airline, will you not introduce an overlay which will bias pilots to also rise to their level of incompetence? Have we not seen this on occasions in pilots who have applied for and who have been selected for management positions?

Regards

Stoic

wobble2plank

1st Mar 2008, 09:17

It is very interesting to read this thread and to try to understand the viewpoint of the many 'Ppruners'.

Not so long ago we had a vast amount of threads dedicated to the degradation of terms and conditions due to the various airlines willingness to charge for type ratings, training etc. This caused alot of discussion pertaining to professional pilots terms and condition falling due to the cheap influx of willing students onto the lower tiers of the airline world. The general call became, 'if you don't accept paying for your type rating then they will stop charging for it'.

Now, welcome to the new world of culling the market from the other end. Quantas and American Airlines have, sucessfully, capped and curbed mainline terms and conditions by use of a 'small upstart carrier' becoming a trojan horse to railroad the mainline into reduced terms and conditions.

This process has been very closely watched and scrutinized by all airlines around the world. The ability to have a large workforce on lower T's & C's in place to cover mainline work during a dispute is undoubtedly an enviable position for any manager. Do not be mistaken this will have an effect on all of our T's & C's in the future.

At the moment there is, for those who wish it, progression through the professional pilot workforce. The ability of a pilot to vote with his feet causes localised roster and pay stability as many airlines do not want the associated training cost involved with pilot migration. If we cull the top of the work list, i.e. the 'Legacy' carriers then there will be a waterfall effect as many managers will take into account the lack of ability to move carrier for better T's & C's. This action will have a huge affect on the industry over the next 10-15 years as the accountants and managers seek ever more innovative ways to cut costs in the face of rising fuel prices and reduced profit margins.

We, as professional people, cannot allow this to happen. Sure, the idea of DEC long haul trans Atlantic flying seems very appealing until you look at the fixed wages including any variable pay. These do not change. They are fixed for a fixed roster that will be very tiring indeed. After a few years then the novelty will wear off but the airline does not want to let you move fleet or airline. They do not want OS on the mainline seniority roster as then in 10 years time they will not be useful as a lever.

This is not just about BA Mainline wanting to maintain their 'cash cow' it is about wanting to preserve the conditions of employment in the future.

You decide.

kaikohe76

1st Mar 2008, 23:14

No personal axe to grind folks but....,

I really fail to see just why the travelling public continue to use both BA as an airline & EGLL as an airport. All in all, both organisations I contend are an absolute shower & I would not touch either of them with even a small barge pole!!

Perhaps it would be nice for a change if the pax decided to go on strike for a few days. You know those people who put bums on seats & in doing so pour lots of cash into both the BA & BAA coffers.

411A

1st Mar 2008, 23:33

You know those people who put bums on seats & in doing so pour lots of cash into both the BA & BAA coffers.

I seriously doubt the BA pilots would care, as their collective snoots seem well out of ground effect...:hmm::\
Ditto for the BAA.
The airports/airlines in Europe must be laughing their sox off...:}

FlyingSpanner

1st Mar 2008, 23:45

KC135777,

Please got off your high horse!

I am a fully licensed aircraft engineer on A319/20/21, A330, A340, A340-500/600. B747-100/200/300/400, B767-200/300, B777-200/200ER/300/300ER. AND a commercial pilot on A320 series aircraft.

I would like to point out to you that as a PILOT I trained for a period approaching 14 MONTHS over a period of time.

As an ENGINEER I trained for 5 YEARS contunuiously before getting my license to work on aircraft. While I dont dispute the skill involved in flying, (bear in mind im a pilot as well) you are seeking credit above where its due. Are you saying that pilots working for other companies apart from BA are less than you? Is someone working for Virgin flying the 400 less competent?

I am a contractor and either fly or fix depending on what pays best for a given period. I dont care! My lifestyle is dependant on what I choose, and I live my life as I WANT. Not as how MANAGEMENT want me to live. Hence I am a CONTRACTOR!

However, please remember I am with you all and fully understand what your doing and strike action is not for the feint of heart. Terms and conditions should not be allowed to slip and any erosion of them would pose a problem for us all.

I just wanted to make a point that being a pilot does not make you God.

Engineers have the same responsibilites of a pilot (lives in hand) but as a pilot forgoes those responsibilities when he walks off the aircraft (Im still a pilot) the engineer still has same responsibility until the check is done again or another work carried out.

AND to KC135777 I was offered a job at BA (pilot) but turned it down! Not to my style of living (is working living?).

Flying Spanner :ok:

exeng

2nd Mar 2008, 00:09

I am a fully licensed aircraft engineer on A319/20/21, A330, A340, A340-500/600. B747-100/200/300/400, B767-200/300, B777-200/200ER/300/300ER.

Fantastic stuff. Let me tell you what I am fully licensed on then. Wait for it!!??!! A B.707-336 airframe with a 436 addition.

How did you do all that stuff? Coeh!!! some guy - and then a pilot - unbelievable.

Regards
Exeng

FlyingSpanner

2nd Mar 2008, 00:24

Did it as EX BA Overseas engineer!

Whenever they had 10 min with me doing nothing they put me on a course.

I just wanted to make a point that pilots are not Gods Gift. I spent more time training for being an engineer than a pilot, however I get more respect for being a pilot. Go figure?

If you doubt me I can send you a copy of my EASA 66 engineers license AND my UK CAA issued JAR Pilot License with appropriate A320 endorsement!

Flying Spanner! :ok:

P.S. Whats a 707? Born in 72!

411A

2nd Mar 2008, 00:26

Let me tell you what I am fully licensed on then. Wait for it!!??!! A B.707-336 airframe with a 436 addition.

Oh gosh...I flew those, after they were pawned off by BOAC...a ground gripper if there ever was one.:ooh::ooh:

wobble2plank

2nd Mar 2008, 09:14

I just wanted to make a point that pilots are not Gods Gift. I spent more time training for being an engineer than a pilot, however I get more respect for being a pilot. Go figure?

Slightly off tread but might I also suggest that not all ex-ground engineers are pious sky gods either ;)

Seriously though, I have found that the only ones to have that idea are either straight out of flying school and haven't yet learnt their fallibility or mortality and those that have sat their entire life in a safe shiny tube and haven't yet had it bite them badly and necessitate the sudden realisation that they, perhaps, are not immortal!

Most of us (professional pilots) are well aware of our limits and fallibilities and also many of us, myself included, have degrees and training outside of the aviation environment and thus tend to have a somewhat more grounded view of the job.

I do like to be properly recompensed for my responsibility however and the constant degradation of T's & C's over the last few years is not representative of the job we ALL do.

Marvo

2nd Mar 2008, 09:46

Dear Flying spanner,

I too have a B1/B2 ( plus old section L) licence with loads of cover (ex BA Gatwick engineer) and now fly the A319 for the orange mob. This is however irrelvant to the thread!!

My first (flying) job was at Ryanair where I watched the terms and conditions deteriorate month after month and the majority of pilots roll over and take it , just because they got the base they wanted or early command etc etc. BALAP and REPA attempted to help the pilots break this sprial but most are not interested.

My point is, If BA pilots have the unity and courage to stand up to management then good luck to them. It sends a signal to the shirts behind the desks that the union has strength and this can only be good for the rest of us in BALPA. I for one support them ! Let us not get into a discussion about BA as a whole or flying from LHR etc.

ps. As an ex OSE you probably had a lot of free time, when not on the beach or raising ADD's;)

FlyingSpanner

2nd Mar 2008, 15:42

Apologies if I went a bit off topic with my little rant and spat. :(

I was just trying to make the point to KC135777 that what we do in flying the aircraft is a skill. And as such it can be learned through practice and a certain amount of dexterity.

Does it mean that everyone can do it? No absolutly not, but then again not everyone can drive. :=

Regards to terms and conditions I am fully behind you BA boys and hope that you give the management what it deserves.

I was stuck for hours at LHR due to complete incompetence of management. Few weeks ago with the high winds for a few days, aircraft delayed to EDI because of - wait for it - there was only 1 dispatcher on and then when he had issued the paperwork it was past 2230 so the tug drivers left and there was only 1 tug crew on all of T1 to push out 15 delayed aircraft.

Now why was this left to happen? Could management not pay a bit of overtime for the staff and arrange a couple of more people? BA has lost the good will of the staff, and now in any time of crisis its all falls apart.

It really takes some b@lls to walk out the door but I believe its your only option left. BA terms and conditions were fought for over the years and if you let this start at BA then there will be such a knock on effect for the rest of the industry its not worth thinking about.

Go get em!

Flying Spanner :ok:

P.S. being an OSE was great but again management managed to F:mad:K that up as well!!!

KC135777

2nd Mar 2008, 16:32

FlyingSpanner,
Yes, there is only one God- and he is not me.
No high horse here.
Yes, flying is a skill, BUT it goes beyond that.
As I mentioned, when things go wrong it takes more than skill
to make it right, and conclude the flight safely.

KC

KC135777

2nd Mar 2008, 16:37

Wobble2plank,
You mentioned, " This process has been very closely watched and scrutinized by all airlines around the world."

Oh, they do WAY more than watch- they actually collude and collaborate through www.aircon.org

Check out the members and international members too...their mission statement, etc....

Oh yeah, a "not for profit organization" my bum!

OMG, last time I mentioned www.aircon.org, I got suspended for a week by the moderator for "arrogance in spades". oops!

KC

wobble2plank

2nd Mar 2008, 17:03

How true!

But if WE have unions or collaborative organisations then WE are being militant.

Makes you wonder :mad:

:*

londonman

3rd Mar 2008, 12:20

Forgive my ignorance but isn't the availability of tugs and drivers the responsibility of BAA and not BA?

Human Factor

3rd Mar 2008, 13:14

Not at LHR. BA provide their own ground handling (tugs, baggage, etc.).

overstress

4th Mar 2008, 07:43

BA and BALPA will resume conciliation talks at 1000 today 4 March, they finished yesterday at 1800.

Minge Magnet

4th Mar 2008, 14:10

Its easy.Just fire all 3000 odd pilots who go on strike,pay them the minimum statuary wrongful dismissal amount,and replace them overnight with the glut of experienced pilots currently on the market.Thats what anyone with an ounce of commonsense would do.:8

Juan Tugoh

4th Mar 2008, 14:14

MM Thanks for that well thought out, intelligent and well and expressed posting.

Meanwhile, back on the planet earth..........:ugh:

wobble2plank

4th Mar 2008, 14:25

I feel that MM's post was just a touch tounge in cheek :rolleyes:

However, the enormous glut of fully qualified ETOP's long haul pilots is always a worry! :E:E

:ok:

Fake Sealion

4th Mar 2008, 14:31

This thread has become eerily quiet in the last 48 hours . . . . .
The "talks" have made it nearly to the end of day 2. Neither side has picked up the football and gone home yet?
Must be regarded as grounds for optimism.
Perhaps my new airbeds will now not see the light of day.....or more accurately Terminal 1 floor.:bored:

Minge Magnet

4th Mar 2008, 14:44

When I say overnight sure it may be a few days while they learn English and get a work permit but cross bridges as you get to them is what I say.Just cause BALPA are holding 4 aces in this poker game does not mean you cant bluff them.Bunch of loosers.

Right Engine

4th Mar 2008, 17:09

What do you call a troll who can't spell?

Stay away from iron filings. Could be a bit itchy for you.

idol detent

5th Mar 2008, 12:40

M.M. availed us of his IR knowledge...

Its easy.Just fire all 3000 odd pilots who go on strike,pay them the minimum statuary wrongful dismissal amount,and replace them overnight with the glut of experienced pilots currently on the market.Thats what anyone with an ounce of commonsense would do.

Are you a BA manager, because that's the sort of purile argument that they too have been spouting? :rolleyes:

Not only would sacking us cost them a fortune in wrongful dismissal cases, I am led to believe individual lawsuits for loss of earnings etc would quickly follow (since the strike would be legal). And think of the animosity should we be dismissed & then re-instated. Because the "glut of experienced pilots" simply only exists in your mind. We are just about managing to recruit at the moment, never mind an additional 3000. And who's going to train them? A legal minefield for BA.

They didn't sack the cabin crew last year, and I think it nigh on impossible for BA to sack >2500 pilots and expect to have a solvent business. And that, for the Board, would see them in prison.

Red herring me old china...

Now next time you post please add smileys so that we know you are joking. If you're serious please go away and grow up.

ATB

id

oncemorealoft

5th Mar 2008, 14:09

Thought you gentlemen might want to join the 'Open Skies' blog :}

See:

http://flyopenskies.com/

As Mr Moss says himself.."Help us forge the future of airline travel. Join the conversation."

Human Factor

5th Mar 2008, 14:19

MM,

Hopefully you were posting TiC. If not, idol detent failed to mention that mass firing and rehiring is also illegal under UK law. :ugh:

Thought you gentlemen might want to join the 'Open Skies' blog

See:

http://flyopenskies.com/

As Mr Moss says himself.."Help us forge the future of airline travel. Join the conversation."

A few of us tried by posting the question:

"Why will Open Skies not be crewed by BA pilots?"

Strangely :rolleyes:, we were moderated and our questions were not posted. Methinks Mr. Moss' conversation is a little one-sided. ;)

Hotel Mode

5th Mar 2008, 15:33

From Openlies Blog page

However, we won’t necessarily drop a comment just because it isn’t favourable to OpenSkies. (That wouldn’t be very “open” of us.)

Words fail me.

koi

5th Mar 2008, 16:15

Gentlemen,
This is all going as expected. Koi is on his third box of tissues. Don't expect a happy outcome for those that go on strike. BA management will prevail. BA pilots are no longer able to regard themselves as a special case for T and C's nor will BA managers. Check out the reaction from your customers and competitors. You chose to pick a fight that it is impossible for you to win. Ask any sales team or manager in another industry. You had it coming to you and......yes, here it is. Time to DODAR and NUTA methinks. Really put that expensive training to good use.
Why don't you just turn left and drive as it says in your ops manual.
KC135777 just exactly what special skills do you have to offer your employer, your public would love to know. The BA incident / safety records over the years just don't appear to reflect anything special. However the BA PR dept does a magnificent job. Aye.
Koi

ZILLI

5th Mar 2008, 16:21

Ha ha ha this will let the cat out amongst the pidgeons! I await my esteemed friends replies with bated breath!

Juan Tugoh

5th Mar 2008, 16:30

History will judge who has DODARed and NUTAd, BALPA or BA management. BA claims that this operation will entail a maximum of 6 hulls and is a very marginally profitable endeavour - so much so that BA pilots earning the same as DEPs would so screw the margins as to make it fail. Why risk losing many millions of pounds to make a small profit? The only answer a reasonable man might come to is that this is a front - that a different model to that we are being told about is being rolled out. Ask the Qantas pilots about Jetstar and the Iberia pilots about Clickair, and about the reassurances they were given by their respective managements about those operations and the effect they would have on T&C's. BA pilots would be exceptionally stupid to allow this to happen to them. As to what anyone else thinks about it - who cares? BA can spin it anyway they like.

sam white

5th Mar 2008, 17:10

Koi,

Firstly you will notice I am not hiding behind an Alias.

I am glad to notice that there is still so much Jealousy in the industry. You seem to have strong feeling towards BA pilots...... It leads me to wonder if you may have applied in the past and not got in?:ok:

The simple fact is....

If BA's terms and conditions get knocked (i.e.. a significant benchmark in the Industry lowered), people will no longer leave Easy, Mon, TC, Tfly, Flybe, VA, A2K, MT, etc. to join BA, then with no movement in the industry, T's and C's in all companies WILL (eventually) fall too.

Your ranting on sounds more like a personal vendetta than an informed view on what's best for all pilots, industry wide in the UK.

Even Night Freight pilots may one day feel the pinch.

Hand Solo

5th Mar 2008, 17:21

Koi is on his third box of tissues

It's cheaper and more environmentally friendly to do it into a sock mate.

GS-Alpha

5th Mar 2008, 18:29

Hand Solo

That was the funniest, and yet most fitting remark I have ever seen on PPRUNE! :ok:

Dairn

5th Mar 2008, 19:31

Hand Solo ex Navy me-thinks :)

koi

5th Mar 2008, 20:29

Sam,
This is not a rant, merely making the point that competition, customer driven, and now very focused is forcing these changes on your managers and thus onto the employee. Fifteen years ago pilots and their managers were talking on this subject. We said that it just couldn't last...and it hasn't. It is somewhat amusing to see the hundreds of posts from BA pilots flexing their muscles and mouths, startled at the reality of what is about to happen. Of course there is another management agenda. There always is. But do pray look about you and not just at home ! Check the status of Spain, Hong Kong, USA, India, UK. Most of us have been living this way for the last 18 years and getting on with our lives. There is little to be changed for us by a change in your T and C's.
The historical migration of pilots away from the Independants and into BA has been costly and unnecessary and has screwed the retention & recruitment plans of so many airlines in the past and completely distorted the market. Did you ever invisage the playing field being flattened.
Sam, what we have now is, simply put, a free for all. Get used to it. Embrace it.
Please can we have some latin guys. I do so miss.
Koi

GS-Alpha

5th Mar 2008, 21:12

Check the status of Spain, Hong Kong, USA, India, UK. Most of us have been living this way for the last 18 years and getting on with our lives. There is little to be changed for us by a change in your T and C's.

And there it is. You are jealous that we might just be able to hang onto our terms and conditions. You would rather we just allowed them to erode because that is what you did. Ah, I see why you are so against BA pilots now.

koi

5th Mar 2008, 21:44

GS Alpha,
No sir, not jealous, just astounded at your collective lack of understanding of what has been going on around you for the last few years. Do you watch the BBC or rely on Balpa for your news !

Now guys, please..please can someone tell me what the Latin term is for schadenfreude.
Koi :ok:

windytoo

5th Mar 2008, 22:21

Et tu Brute.

randomair

5th Mar 2008, 23:09

To quote koi on a mytravel thread:

"I watch with sheer horror at what is happening to an airline where I spent over 11 years in the left seat boeing -bus all types. There is an urgent need to change the Dfo who has done so much damage to relations with the pilot workforce when there was always another way. He is simply following his agenda as is the brief. This is happening all over the industry from Cathay to States airlines. There has never been a better reason for a young pilot to seriously consider retraining for another career and limit the damage further. If you think it is going to be better at the national carrier or another charter org you would be wrong. I lay the blame for this at our own door. We should have become a highly organised and Chartered profession decades ago as has benefited the other professions. It is now far to late. Think - family first and get out to a fresh start. Good luck to all."

Maybe koi you should be happy that BA pilots are actually standing up for themselves . If pilots in every other airline stood united, had a strong union and the balls and sense not to allow management and bean counters to ruin the profession, then those young/aspiring pilots might actually have a career ahead of them to look forward to.

Some people make things happen,
Some watch things happen,
While others wonder what has happened.

You my friend are certainly not the former. :}

randomair

M.Mouse

5th Mar 2008, 23:46

Hypocrisy? Surely not.

Tandemrotor

5th Mar 2008, 23:49

koi
We said that it just couldn't last...and it hasn't

Oh koi. You poor darling! No wonder you're using up so much Kleenex! :}

What you meant to say is, 'it hasn't - for you!' I sympathise. Really I do! Had you made different choices, it could have been SO much better!

Now watch, and learn how the big boys do it! :rolleyes:

Most of us have been living this way for the last 18 years and getting on with our lives.

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Carry on my friend! Enjoy. :8

KC135777

6th Mar 2008, 00:44

merely making the point that competition, customer driven, and now very focused is forcing these changes on your managers and thus onto the employee.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"competition"? uh-huh, sure....

I'm not a "black helicopter" guy, BUT.....

airlines DO collude/collaborate on labor cost issues/techniques.
(see www.aircon.org )

when the cost of producing a product goes up, what do most businesses do?

they raise their prices.

If you think that the airline managements of the world would not take a few years of pain (by not raising prices to ensure profit), in order to turn the clock back on pilot pay/T&Cs/work rules about 20-30 years, you are WRONG.

tbag

6th Mar 2008, 12:17

BA are making money hand over fist and even if it does not last, they are still making money.
That is another reason why BA pilots have to fight to keep what they have , times are good!! Imagine what will have to be given up when belts have to be tightened.
i think it is obvious koi is regretful and looking at BA pilots with envoy.
You should have fought the fight when it was your time, now let the BA pilots do it.
I am guessing that you are a manager of sorts, either that or you deserve to be on whatever deal you have.

Fake Sealion

7th Mar 2008, 15:35

Caought uo with this thread this morning approx 0800 GMT, its now 1630 GMT some posts have been removed. From memory, one of them was asking if "Koi" was a steward.:bored:

Where are the posts, and why were they removed?:mad:

Now end of Day 5 of the "talks" - still no sign of any public statement. There are THOUSANDS of families waiting to hear something about whether or not to bin their Easter holiday plans.:=

GS-Alpha

7th Mar 2008, 15:44

If we do go on strike, BALPA have to give BA seven days notice, and it has to actually commence by 19th March (possibly even the 18th?). So I think we can expect an announcement early next week at the very latest, but quite possibly some time this weekend.

747B

7th Mar 2008, 16:22

ACAS web page states no further announcements until settled ( or otherwise presumably!! )

overstress

7th Mar 2008, 19:06

BALPA have just announced that talks have broken down. :sad:

sidtheesexist

7th Mar 2008, 19:12

This sounds very grim.......................However, I am entirely confident that the BACC did all that they could to bring about a mutually acceptable conclusion to these discussions. BA management are a disgrace and a joke to boot. Bring it on..........

Fake Sealion

7th Mar 2008, 19:19

OVERSTRESS

Talks broken down? Nothing on BBC or Google News yet...can you quote a source please?

Hotel Mode

7th Mar 2008, 19:22

Er BALPA funnily enough

overstress

7th Mar 2008, 19:25

BALPA - the statement goes:

Breakdown of Talks

British Airways and BALPA have been engaged in talks led by ACAS aimed at resolving the dispute concerning Schedule K which resulted in 86% of pilots supporting strike action. These talks have broken down.

Despite BALPA’s willingness to accept the cost base proposed by BA for OpenSkies and to meet any additional costs that would arise from providing OpenSkies pilots with access to mainline, BA was not prepared to provide the employment security and career development opportunities which are at the heart of the dispute.

BALPA said it would consider its position in the light of BA’s stated intention to seek a High Court injunction preventing BA Pilots from taking strike action on the issue of Schedule K.