BA Pilot Ballot results

[Hotel Mode]

86% in favour of strike action with a very high turnout.

Nothing else announced yet

[ETOPS]

a very high turnout.


You bet! Over 90% return which is the highest BALPA have acheived in the recent past. The question is will BA think again, in the face of this overwhelming vote, or are they so pig-headed that they will stick to their position and force a strike?

[Fargoo]

The question is will BA think again, in the face of this overwhelming vote, or are they so pig-headed that they will stick to their position and force a strike?

The vote is for strike action - BA have already forced a strike. All that remains is for BALPA to set the dates.

[nigegilb]

I was chatting with a mate of mine who is a BA driver the other day. He voted against, citing that this was no shot across the bows, but a full on vote for strike and he wasn't prepared to do that.

I guess voting to strike is the easy bit, the difficult bit comes next. A high turnout is essential and this vote looks pretty solid to me. I am just sad that it comes to this and I don't fly for BA.

Sincerely hope that BA management now think again, NOBODY wins in a full on strike.

[Tandemrotor]

nigegilb

Message for your 'mate' from the General Secretary of BALPA:
Irrespective of the way you voted, we request all members respect the decision of colleagues as expressed in the ballot result.
:rolleyes:

[Dunhovrin]

Thread Drift but..

I don't think this is a make or break issue for Balpa here. Good Luck to all you BA chaps but Bapla is about a lot more than BA nowadays. Certainly Virgin have the membership, numbers and solidarity to take on our management and win as we did in '03 and '06 and will again in '08 regardless.

As before though, Good luck chaps - I have a spare donkey jacket if anyone needs one...

[Shaman]

..........and when the results are available, would someone kindly post them on a NEW thread please?

Thanks.

[Juan Tugoh]

How strange - with a vote for strike action in his in-tray Willie suddenly wants to talk. Shame he didn't want to talk to BALPA earlier when they first asked to discuss Open Lies all those months ago.:bored:

[Fargoo]

Willie: Strike action not inevitable



Chief executive Willie Walsh has described as “deeply disappointing” news that pilots have voted in favour of strike action.

Pilots’ union BALPA has been balloting BA pilots over the airline’s plans to set up a new subsidiary, OpenSkies, flying between Europe and the US.

The union informed BA today that 79 per cent of those balloted have voted in favour of strike action.

Willie Walsh said: “This is deeply disappointing news that will be of great concern to you and to our customers. However, I do not believe that a strike is inevitable.

“I am calling on BALPA’s general secretary to accept an offer to involve the ACAS conciliation service in a bid for a peaceful outcome to this unnecessary dispute.

“We have guaranteed to BALPA that OpenSkies does not represent a threat to the terms and conditions of BA pilots. We have offered to make these guarantees part of our industrial agreement with pilots. Our talks with BALPA are continuing and I will keep you informed.”

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7256487.stm

http://www.britishairways.com/travel/flightops/public/en_gb?p_faqid=3152

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/21/nstrike121.xml

And so it begins.....

[M.Mouse]

....but if there has been an offer of Secondment for Mainline crew whilst retaining seniority,

Secondment is a mess. Incumbent pilots of the airline hate the influx of 'outsiders'. The secondees are treated as pariahs. GSS are trying to end the existing arrangements. WW will give NO undertaking regarding secondees beyond the first six aircraft in OpenLies.

As a manager you should know that.

[Jaq]

Incumbent pilots of the airline hate the influx of 'outsiders'. The secondees are treated as pariahs.

M.Mouse I have to disagree with you on your post. I know for a fact that secondees in Cityflyer have ALWAYS been welcomed.

[Shaman]

From BALPA'S website:

...BA pilots voted 86% in favour of strike action in a massive 90% poll. There was a huge amount of debate during the ballot with both BALPA and BA management encouraging members to vote. Both sides knew the importance of the decision....

[M.Mouse]

Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to GSS.

[sky9]

Anyone else notice how the managers and directors seem to come off best whatever mess they make of a company?

Rule of any good management:
1 Identify your key staff
2 Don't p155 them off

Some body's future is going to hinge on any losses incurred in BA, the shareholders won't be pleased with disruption. As far as ACAS goes ignore them, speak to the CEO directly. It's his job that's on the line and he won't want to loose it too quickly.

Is he by any chance a non domicile?

[Jake Russell]

When's it happening? How long for? Will it b*gger Easter?

[tb10er]

so, you are about to strike - when, Easter of course! Why then, to have maximum impact on the fare-paying (ie. wage paying public).

How long will you strike for, 2 days, then 2 days more a bit later on. Why not have an all out strike and stay out!

That way, passengers about to book will know what to do. You can then forget about T&C's as you will be picking up your P45s instead.

I am booked to fly with you around Easter. If you disrupt my arrangements, then you can be sure that I won't be using BA again.
:ugh:

[Human Factor]

As JM said on Sky News, this isn't a dispute against the passengers, although they will clearly suffer. BA are being given a chance to restart the negotiations they walked out on a few weeks ago. Perhaps now, they will come back in a reasonable frame of mind.

I still believe WW wants to see an actual demonstration of this strength of feeling so I would expect quiet skies soon.

Target your venom/ire at BA, not the pilots. I've yet to find one who was pleased to be given the opportunity to strike. BA forced our hand.:yuk:

If you disrupt my arrangements, then you can be sure that I won't be using BA again.

I'm sure you won't be alone. Management take note.

[whattimedoweland]

tb10er,

Maybe you should have a go at the BA Management team and not the staff,this time the pilots.

Once you have clammed down (fare paying,wage paying passenger) and we thank you for that,we the staff never forget that?,ask yourself why are so many NON MILITANT workers having so many problems?!!.

Cabin crew last year,now the pilots,Cabin crew again being balloted in about two weeks and then our colleagues on check in!!.

We can't all be wrong!!:mad:.

We the staff/employees appreciate you pay our wages and also those very large wages of our management team,who in fact could'nt manage anything.

They are cutting costs everywhere,staff wages,T&C's to make more profit and line their own pockets yet again.However when they reduce the loading of Club washbags and take off the 10 disposable razors we used to provide that affects the service we give to you.

None of us at BA regardless of department,want to affect anyones travel arrangements.No matter when it happens it will affect someone.

I personally apologise if your travel plans are disrupted(thats all I do in the cabin these days is say sorry!!),BA won't apologise,just blame others for their inability to,listen,negotiate and manage.

Don't write to customer relations,they are short of staff also and saying sorry to 1000'S who have not got their bags again.Write to Willie Walsh and tell him what you think of him and his incompetent management team.

I wish you luck in your easter travel plans.Our disputes and problems as staff will affect the rest of our working lifes.

WTDWL.

[Jake Russell]

There are two targets of opportunity: Easter and the opening of T5. Both would cause maximum embarrassment to WW, but ruining Easter would seriously p*ss off the public. I'd go for T5.

[Human Factor]

Hopefully it'll be sorted before Easter.

I would be surprised if it drags on until T5 opens. BA are perfectly capable of screwing that up on their own without industrial action giving them an excuse.

[Housewife-43]

Do you have a contact fax number for Willie Walsh?

I would love to give him a piece of my mind. If this strike does go ahead, and if passengers' travel plans are disrupted yet again, it will not end well for BA.

The routes are being opened up later this year and customers will have more options. We WILL vote with our feet. What will BA be left with then? As it is their reputation is all but in tatters. No-one who has flown with them has a good word to say about them.

[funfly]

However valid your cause you will be buggering up PASSENGERS - these are the ones who will be inconvenienced and out of pocket - the general public again. Easter as well - that's rich.
Your gripe is with your MANAGEMENT but your strike won't cause any of THEM personal financial harm, only inconvenience - which is what their job is to deal with anyway. As managers they are paid to deal with the sort of problems you will give them - they may even bring PR consultants in. They will still get their fat salaries don't you have any doubt about that.
Have you ever seen a director or top manager personally penalised after any crippling strike? More likely some will get a peerage!
Whatever your cause it is morally wrong to use/abuse your customers in a dogfight with your management. You tell some of the thousands of dissapointed people in the terminal queues over Easter that this is in their long term interest and see what they think!

Edited to clarify that I am not a commercial pilot (PPL) so this posting is from the viewpoint of a passenger.

[ATTCS armed]

I wasn't aware that any dates had been announced yet....

[sidtheesexist]

Funfly - what in God's name would you have us do in this situation? It's not like we are the BLeyland workers in the 70s-downing tools at the drop of a hat?! BA walked away from the negotiations - not BALPA. None of us want to strike and we are fully aware of the disruption/aggravation this is going to cause the travelling public whose continued patronage keeps us employed.

At this moment I see no other course of action that will protect our jobs/Ts and Cs over the longer term.........:(:{

PS I'm sorry if my response appears rather aggressive - it's not meant to be. More a sense of frustration that management incompetence/intransigence has brought about this impasse - they are also largely responsible for the shambolic state of the day to day operation at LHR which you the passenger, and we the flight and cabin crew have to endure. And for which we, the crew, have to make repeated apologetic PAs........Its shameful and pathetic.

[Human Factor]

funfly,

If you can think of a way to secure my future terms and conditions without needing to go on strike (something that BALPA have not already thought of), my colleagues and I (and no doubt BA management) would be delighted to hear it.

Remember, BA walked out of the negotiations, not BALPA.

[ImageGear]

I like a large number of people HAD planned to fly over Easter with my family.

I can promise BA and BAA that irrespective of the outcome of ANY decision, I will vote with MY CASH and WILL take my business elsewhere. I refuse to be used as a negotiating tool by anybody. The intolerable disaster that is BA and Heathrow is something that ordinary fare paying Pax are systematically deserting.

I run my own company, NONE of my clients care an iota about my staff problems. If I cannot deliver on time and to budget I am OUT OF BUSINESS.

Wake up and smell the coffee - I don't care one IOTA about your staff problems, I want to fly when I want to fly, if you don't deliver, I WILL find someone who can and I WON'T come back.

Hurry up and move out to the DOGGER BANK or somewhere, and take rest of the BAA truck with you. 3rd Runway - Terminal 6 for what, more of the same garbage service. Close the whole lot down and make a park and a Golf Course Put up a hospital and some schools.

Imagegear - just another one of thousands of very angry fare paying punters.

RANT - only just beginning.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Jake Russell]

We all have the right to strike. But we don't have the right to hold thousands of passengers to ransom over the dates. This is a dispute between the union and the management, and since BALPA already knows the strike dates witholding them in the belief that such action provides a tactical advantage is naive and short-sighted. Easter is a month away, and thousands have holidays booked. Spoiling them, or failing to give enough notice to allow alternative arrangements to be made will win no friends and gain no sympathy.

[Housewife-43]

Seriously, if someone can give me a fax number that will reach Willie Walsh then I would be most grateful.

I want to vent my frustation as a passenger who was due to fly with you next week on a much anticipated, and longed for holiday.

As a result of the incompetence and apparent hard-headedness of the BA management team it now looks as though my holiday is going to be spoiled - if not completely then certainly through a great deal of unnecessary hassle.

As passengers, we will go elsewhere in future, you can be sure of that.

[scruggs]

As someone who is due to fly to the US with BA in a little over a week, the thing I most interested in now is strike dates.

Any idea when these will be released?

Cheers

S

[skysod]

I sympathise with your position guys, but like it or not, pilots (especially BA pilots) are perceived by the public at large to be very highly paid individuals, and it won't go unnoticed that "spoilt" is an anagram of "pilots".:}
Good luck.....you're gonna need it!!!

[747-436]

I am not a BA pilot but have heard both sides of the argument.

Having talked to a number of BA pilots it is clear that they do not want to go on strike but feel that they have been left with no other choice.

From the BA side of things they can't believe pilots are going to go on strike for something that seemingly won't affect them at all and also as they get a guaranteed pay rise every year of a certain percentage where other staff in BA don't have that luxury.

Unfortunatly I think it is damned of you do damned if you don't for the pilots as I think overall they will lose anyway in the long term, along with others at BA and in the industry generally. Look at the way the low costs have gone.

All it is going to take in 10-20 years time is for a rich airline from the east to come in to the UK market with no worries what so ever about finance and you can bet they won't give a flying F*** about lowering terms and conditions all round.

The threat to terms and conditions, not only for pilots, but everyone in the industry long term, isn't going to come from within BA, it will come from outside.

[ImageGear]

I am sorry for the affected passengers

Affected Passengers, AFFECTED PASSENGERS, We are not AFFECTED we are being SC@@WED. We will be offered unusable flight vouchers which you can exchange for a half of a flight where you don't want to go, Hours of squatting in a grubby terminal, little or no food, Baggage in Valparaiso, screaming children, distraught parents, violent pax, Trips to the Algarve at 3:30 a.m. via Bergen or Prague or not, Willie spouting and Union leaders waffling.

I am beyond thinking that you lot whoever you might be, can get this mess together, contingency plans are upper most in mine and everyones mind.

I am sure that you all have reasons for doing what you are doing, so do I for what I am saying.

Checking OUT

Imagegear

[WhaleOilBeefHooked]

ImageGear for god sake would you get off the fence and say what you really feel. :rolleyes:

[scruggs]

I'm a passenger posting on here, and I agree with the decision to strike - despite the fact I may fall victim to them in the very near future.

What I'm interested in now is the dates of the strikes. From there I, and other passengers, will be able to see if they need to make alternative arrangements.

I don't envy the BA pilots being put in this position, those who actually care about providing a good service to their passengers must not relish the prospect of this action.

[scruggs]

Thanks for the info MrBunker. I'll keep my eyes peeled for updates and my fingers crossed for good new :)

All the best,

S

[ImageGear]

"Whaleoilbehooked"

Made me laugh when I wanted to scream.

Imagegear

[Scottishjockey]

Part of the reason we fly with BA is the quality of the flight and cabin crew. The decision they've taken is not one that they have taken lightly. As a frequent flyer I put my trust in the men and woman that are trained to make what could be life and death decisions on my behalf. I therefore fully support their action and any criticism should be directed at Willie Walsh and the board of BA who are simply undermining their staff and threatening their long term careers.

I personally want the guys up front to concentrate on the job in hand and not have their management creating uncertainty over their future career paths and security.

[Flightman]

I'm flying BA in March to Sydney. Along with Virgin, there isn't another set of pilots I would want to fly with. BA's standards mustn't be eroded.

Good luck guys. :D

[pacamack]

BA management are beligerent and pig-headed because they won't concede to the pilots' terms?

How then are the BA Pilots not beligerent and pig-headed for not conceding to the BA management terms?

[Iva harden]

IMAGEGEAR......do not worry, if you are off to the Algarve....you will still be able to go there with GB Airways ( BA Franchise ) even if the strike happens.....however...at the end of March it will change to Easyjet!!

[Iva harden]

BALPA web site says the Vote returned 90% of which 86% voted in favour of strike action........an obvious message to BA management, however I was expecting at least 95% of pilots to say yes to strike......:ok: Good luck to you all. I do wonder though if Willy Boy Walsh is pig headed enough to repeat what he did at Lingus.....lets hope not........

[Roobarb]

Passengers: I am truly very sorry that it’s come to this, but frankly I don’t believe we offer the kind of product worthy of your custom anymore. Any of us who were at work yesterday will tell you what a sham of an operation it has become. Beset with beancounters and fawning incompetent managers, the front line is starved of the people to make it run properly.

For years now the system has relied on overtime to patch up the chronically under resourced coal face. Even to the extent of engineers doing baggage handling to make up the wage packet at the end of the month – BA has robbed Peter to pay Paul.

Now the pursuit of the boards magic 10% figure has meant no overtime for the T5 move. Result? No people at the coal face.

Pilots: I’m sorry too. The fact is that no-one likes BA pilots, I don’t know why. It’s a bit like being a stormtrooper for Darth Vader’s Empire. The reality is that we are very hard working, dedicated and professional bunch.

We do not deserve this. I imagine that the British merchant mariners didn’t see the problem when the first British vessels started flying the flags of foreign nations. They do now. You might scoff at Nigel’s hubris, but if we go down who’s next. Maybe your job too? Will you have sepia tone photos of those old airliners with a British registration, you know, the last ones that flew with British pilots?

It’s my strike today. What will you do tomorrow?

Management: Oh. Don’t worry. I can’t begin to describe the contempt in which I hold you. You’re about to find out who your friends are.

Edited to add the point I wanted to make in the first place

Let's be clear about the point of this dispute.

This is not about money. This not about how hard we work.

This is about our employer; bringing in a cheap contractor; to do the work that we already do.

That will not stand.
http://www.hatii.arts.gla.ac.uk/MultimediaStudentProjects/96-97/9339641b/project/gifp/roobarb5.gif
I'll take on the opposition tomorrow. Today it's my management's turn:D

[Fork Handles]

For the guys joining as FO who think the seniority list will screw them at OS. You dont need to worry about that. The management are already planning to do that. I have been offered ,nay, pestered to attend a command interview at OS , how does that sit with your promotion? Ill tell you how. It fecks it up because just as in five years it will be cheaper to hire OS over BA its cheaper to hire me than promote you and then replace you. Same **** different depth my friends.Oh and dont forget the secondments OFFERED by BA not requested by BALPA. This is not about scuppering OS its about the line in the sand for our industry.

[The SSK]

JOINT BA/BALPA STATEMENT


British Airways and the British Air Line Pilots Association (BALPA) today agreed to refer issues relating to the launch of the BA subsidiary, OpenSkies, to a conciliation process with an independent third party.

The decision was reached at a positive meeting between BA and BALPA at the airline’s headquarters near Heathrow. Both sides expressed their strong desire to achieve a peaceful outcome.

Willie Walsh, British Airways chief executive, said: ‘We welcome the progress made today and are confident that a settlement can be achieved through conciliation which will protect our customers from the possibility of disruption.

‘We are proud of the professionalism and high reputation of our pilots and have never sought conflict with them.’

Jim McAuslan, BALPA general secretary, said: ‘The ballot result shows the strength of feeling of our members about the implications of the creation of OpenSkies.

‘We have no quarrel with the travelling public and have always maintained that these issues could be resolved through negotiation rather than confrontation.’


END

[PeetD]

Balpa, if and when you do decide your strike dates, can you please coordinate them with BAA baggage computer upgraders / BA cabin crew unions / Gate Gourmet / French/Italian/Spanish ATC / Train drivers / the weather, and anyone else who wants to screw up my travel plans and then we can get all this all out of the way at once?

[Diver_Dave]

As SLF I appreciate that I'm stepping into a professionals forum.

Any strike over the next few months is likely to affect my travel plans in one way or another but......

Given the situation you face and what is undoubtedly a steady decline in T&C's over the years (I KNOW what that's like, it's happened to me over the last 5 years) as far as I can see you haven't any real option.

Yes it may Bu&&er up my plans. Stuff it.

Good luck!

DaveA

[Vino Collapso]

The 'collapso' family are off on their annual ski trip to the USA late March. Would you mind awfully consulting with me over your strike dates? :)

Getting stranded by industrial action could happen on any carrier but it is a shame it may come to this with BA. Nothing against you pilots standing up for youselves but if Wee Willie Walsh plays brinkmanship to the extent that my plans get scuppered then I will be traveling with someone else next year. It would be my vote against BA management tactics.

[cockney steve]

Hello, maybe I'm missing something(just a self-employed manual worker the last 30 years)

Why, oh why, have the BA "coalface" crew not bought huge tranches of BA shares?...their voting -power could surely be vested in a mutual holding company.

that way, you'd have savings invested for a rainy day.
you'd have a real voice in the running of BA
Part of BA's profits would return directly to you (to buy more shares?)
you'd have much better control of your own destiny

the company's success would be YOUR success.

This model works fine for the JOHN LEWIS PARTNERSHIP...a department -store group which is wholly owned by those employed by it.

I realise this is not an"instant" solution,but it seems likely that BA will collapse under the weight of it's own corporate arrogance (or are the Fat-Cats just scooping off the cream,before abandoning the leaking ship?)

Drastic and unorthodox, I know, but there appears to be a lot of brand-loyalty (stretched to the breaking-point of many punters).

If you have faith, become a shareholder. Otherwise, continue to be badly -used or find a better employer.

*ducks behind parapet*

[brakedwell]

The 'collapso' family are off on their annual ski trip to the USA late March. Would you mind awfully consulting with me over your strike dates?

Getting stranded by industrial action could happen on any carrier but it is a shame it may come to this with BA. Nothing against you pilots standing up for youselves but if Wee Willie Walsh plays brinkmanship to the extent that my plans get scuppered then I will be traveling with someone else next year. It would be my vote against BA management tactics.

If enough customers vote with their feet Big Airways will become Little Airways or Do You Remember Airways!

[planes49]

I'm very suprised that BALPA has got excited about this issue. After all, they allowed BA to operate 744 freighters in their colours, but owned and operated by GSS for some years! (ex LH dog)

[Flightmech]

I think you'll find that Atlas operated the 744's in BA colours, now GSS operate them in their own (with a tiny BA badge).

[Enderby-Browne]

Think Willie has moved his CV onto his desktop. :E Wouldn't be at all surprised to see him move to a Middle East carrier this year...

[two green one prayer]

86% in favour of the BA strike is about what you would get if turkeys were invited to vote against Christmas. Can someone please tell me what percentage of BA pilots are BALPA members?

[Human Factor]

Steve,

A lot of airlines (for example Easyjet), give their employees share-options to buy company shares at a favourable cost as part of their pay deal. BA don't and we've been after them for years.

Strangely, it's available to the senior management...... :rolleyes:

[Airbubba]

86% in favour of the BA strike is about what you would get if turkeys were invited to vote against Christmas.

Looks like BALPA has wisely decided to back down in view of the less than thunderous vote results.

21 February, 2008

BA and pilots agree to conciliation


British Airways and the British Air Line Pilots Association have agreed to refer issues relating to the launch of the OpenSkies subsidiary to a conciliation process with an independent third party.



http://www.travelmole.com/stories/1126604.php

[finncapt]

I would say that is probably the largest percentage of votes "for" for any ballot in any union in the UK since the last time BA pilots were balloted.

There are not many non-union members in BA.

[Tandemrotor]

Airbubba

Ha Ha Ha!!

You're hilarious! :D

[Stop Stop Stop]

would say that is probably the largest percentage of votes "for" for any ballot in any union in the UK since the last time BA pilots were balloted.

Actually not. The KLM Cityhopper UK guys and Gals voted for strike action last year and had a 100% YES mandate. Not one NO vote!

Luckily for us, the company caved in to the demands and the strikes were not necessary, but we were certainly ready for action, with the braziers ready.

Good luck to the BA crews- you will have a nasty few weeks now with a lot of pressure from management. Ignore it- I am sure it will work out well for you.

[finncapt]

I suppose I deserve to be shot down in flames, but I still think it's pretty good and I think you agree stop stop stop.

[lovethesky]

and ba crew had a 96% yes vote last year

[Airbubba]

In the U.S. these "strike authorization votes" are kinda like eBay feedback, if the percentage is anything less than the high nineties it indicates a problem with support. Maybe 86% is a good number for BALPA.

[Hand Solo]

The US is not the UK. 86% on the high turnout is a good result.

[Speedpig]

Am I being niaive or is the fact that BA has agreed to concilliation an indication that they are prepared to talk? "Tell them this is want we want, ask them what they want, this is what we will accept, ask them what they will accept..... etc?"
Wish I owned ACAS


SP

[MadDog Driver]

May I just express my full support to BA pilots. You are in a battle that you cannot afford to loose!
To those pax that have travel plans that would be affected by a strike, I feel deeply sorry for you! But it is the only weapon left. Any strike, in any company, in any business, hurts someone,and BA pilots have no other option than to show BA what they are willing to do in this situation, as far as I understand the problem here!
BA colleagues, Public support, you´ll never have. And you don´t need it. But you do have it from colleagues in other companies who recognize what management are trying to pull on you.
I hope that BALPA have received a letter of support from my union! If not, rest assured that many SAS pilots support you in our minds! It´s just that, we are busy, engaged in a very very similar battle with our management at this time! We´re not quite as far as you are yet, but could be soon!
Hope that now, finally WW will wake up, and do the right thing!
Rgds MDD

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Good luck to the pilots.

Having been on the sharp end of a management shafting in Manchester, I know exactly where they are coming from. Try talking with senior BA management, you may as well be talking to a wall, and you'd probably get more sense from the wall (I hope you're reading this Mr Hatton).

As for any Pax complaining, instead of thinking about a small short-term personal disruption, think of the long-term effects of allowing BA's mismanagement to get away with this sham.

God speed gentlemen.

[kowloon]

This is so depressing. Airing the dirty washing in public, scaring the public and war mongering. Actually 1 in 4 of the pilots voted No, couldn't vote or didn't want to vote. 2327 voted yes in BALPA's ballet, but the pilot work force is 3200. Still a big majority but not everyone is convinced and it indicates that many have reservations about the issue. :suspect:

Now here is some good news.

"BA have today agreed with the British Air Line Pilots Association (BALPA)
to refer issues relating to the launch of the BA subsidiary, Open Skies, to
a conciliation process with an independent third party.

The decision was reached today at a positive meeting between BA and BALPA. Both sides expressed their strong desire to achieve a peaceful outcome."

Thank goodness, now back to negotiation please. :)

Safe flying

[Hand Solo]

Nice bit of spin there Kowloon. 2716 votes returned, 86% voted yes with 3 papers spoiled. Thats 380 BA pilots voted against strike action. Out of 3200.

[kowloon]

You like it. :) Just shows how you can "spin" the figures (2327 yes votes) if your view differs. I saw 2716 voted, 2327 said yes the remainder said no or spilt their coffee on the paper. So out of 3207 in the work force it shows 880 have reservations about the issue, can't vote, didn't vote, didn't want to vote, resigned from BALPA, or don't want to be in BALPA, didn't vote yes or whatever. Know one could avoid being involved, everyone chose in their own way.

Figures, Spin you can run a goverment on it if you want to. :suspect:

But don't you agree its a relief to be back negotiating again? :ok:

Rgds Kowloon

PS I thought I would have been incinerated by now. ;)

[Walnut]

Fltman & Scottish jockey have it about right. All pax wish to arrive at their dest. safely and expeditiously. However, The scheduling proposals that WW & his US/Irish team are suggesting for OS are downright dangerous and will lead to severe fatigue for his proposed flt crew. Tired pilots make mistakes, not intentionally but history says otherwise. I am now retired after 34yrs with BA, BA standards will be severely compromised if this proposal goes through.

[Shaman]

To all those passengers thinking of making alternative travel arrangements over the Easter period:

Do it now while there are still seats available with other airlines 'cos there won't be any alternative seats left later.

[kowloon]

Eh sorry, I thought I mentioned that the pilots and BA are negotiating again (which has always been the primary objective). They are a very reasonable bunch really.

[BillS]

As a SLF, you have my full support.
The stronger the action, the quicker the settlement.
If I want a second rate airline, there are plenty that offer cheaper service.
I require the highest standards - that requires the best crews - and for that I don't mind paying extra.
What I do object to is simply paying to fill shareholders and management pockets.

As SLF we may take some temporary inconvenience - but if management wish to entice customers back I am sure we will benefit from some encouragement following strike action - if that becomes necessary.

Hopefully the strength of your support and will to take action will result in a very quick climbdown by the #'**# in management that is responsible for this strike.

[whattimedoweland]

I am a CSD for BA on Worldwide Fleet Heathrow.

I have listened to the few rantings against the pilots on here and understand peoples upset.

Take your frustrations out on Willie Walsh and his bunch of incompetent managers,who can't manage a p*ss up in a brewry!!.

On my last couple of flights I have spoken to many of our Gold card holders and yesterday a Premier Card holder.The one's who have asked me about the pilots strike are really only interested in what the dates may be.The vast majority seemed very upto date with the problems ahead and just want a heads up so they can make alternative plans.They also enjoy flying BA and plan to continue doing so.

They also were very much on the side of the pilots and understood they don't go on strike at the drop of a hat.

Neither were they surprised when I told them there was a forthcoming ballot from the Cabin Crew and Check-in staff!!:uhoh:.

Most of the Premium passengers I fly with understand the problems at BA are not the staff but the Management,who seem content to see our long suffering customers go through more disruption for the sake of diminishing our terms and conditions.

I love the job I do,the passengers I look after and the colleagues I fly with.
I just wish we could get rid of this incompetent managent we have at all levels,get on with our job and give you the passengers the service you want and more so deserve.

Send your complaints to [email protected]

I am sure that is his e-mail.

WTDWL.

[alfamatt]

As BA Cabin crew, firstly, I'd like to voice my 100% support to my Tech crew colleagues.
About a month ago, our Tech & Cabin crews were correctly praised by all for doing a superb job on the BA038.
And now, the real respect, or lack of it from our senior managers is being shown.
Another ballot for industrial action by cabin crew may also be only round the corner, sadly. Issues based around what BA management agreed to do to avert our action last year which they still haven't implemented.
Back to the main issue, I think that agreeing to arbitration so early seems a bad move. Usually, it is the party with the weaker hand that calls for arbitration. By definition, arbitration involves a compromise on both sides, & so it would seem that the pilots are already willing to compromise their stance on seniority listing, which I find a little surprising & maybe disappointing. Lets hope a good solution is found for all concerned.
Matt.

[MadDog Driver]

I don¨t think that the pilots suddenly started having second thoughts alfamatt. Nor should they! I think that WW suddenly started having second thoughts. And so,I think, he should! he saw today, that the pilots are very very serious, and hopefully for BA, he does the right thing!

[swordsman]

Balpa has not agreed to arbitration.They have agreed to conciliation which is not binding.Managment having waited for the result of the ballot proposed arbitration AFTER it was announced.You really could not make it up :}

[Chris777]

Why are you all so militant? You wonder why your profession is no longer taken seriously and claim that you've lost your "professional status", and then we hear about your intention to strike like factory workers. Tell me, did GPs threaten to go on strike when the government tried to renogotiate their contracts?

You moan on and on about "senior management" and yes I'm sure they can be a bloody pain and don't know how to fly a plane (after all, they're not pilots), but you are airline pilots, hugely respected by the general public and not badly paid, let's be honest.

I know you work hard. I know you have a tough, demanding job. But please remember that your reputation is on the line here.

[pacamack]

I say sack the management!

The BA pilots are clearly more than capable of running the airline in its entirety and it is quite apparent that the management team have contribute nothing towards making it one of the most profitable airlines in the world!

[M.Mouse]

I have kept out of this thread because I do not wish to get into a slanging match with those who are blinkered/envious/selfish or just plain unpleasant but Chris777 your post demands a reply.

I am not militant, I have just had enough of being screwed around by incompetent so-called managers who see no further than their riding off into the sunset with pockets stuffed with money despite decimating the operation during their tenure.

I do not complain about my 'professional status' whatever that is.

Last strike by BA pilots was in 1980. Striking is not the weapon of first resort it is truly the last.

My understanding of the GPs last deal would indicate that striking was a little pointless given the extra money that seems to have landed in their laps (and good for them too, I hope the nurses get a look in next). BA management is not unlike this present greedy, self-centred bunch of shysters in government. Remind me again who stuffed the pensions industry, except their own of course?

Senior management aka Willie Walsh actually does know how to fly a plane because that is what he trained and employed to do by Aer Lingus. He was also a union leader in Aer Lingus and was instrumental in leading the 1986 Aer Lingus pilot's strike.

I am not complaining that I am badly paid, I am just asking that we have a common seniority list of pilots employed by BA, flying BA aeroplanes, marketed with BA money and maintained by BA engineering and trained to common BA standards. Quite simple and nothing about asking for more money just making sure that I don't enhance somebody's bonus by standing by while my position is undermined by such an obvious tactic as OpenLies.

You are correct my reputation is on the line here and I intend to make sure it remains intact.

[SR71]

Tell me, did GPs threaten to go on strike when the government tried to renogotiate their contracts?

Spot on M.Mouse.

If your new contract proposed to double your salary in 5 years (Don't tell me the Doctors didn't work that one out whilst it was on the negotiating table? After all, they're a clever bunch aren't they?), you'd be a little daft to moan wouldn't you?

;)

[whattimedoweland]

M.Mouse,

Very well put and I totally agree with your views.I also add I fully support my flight crew colleagues in their battle ahead with our 'incompetent leaders.

Just over a year ago I posted a similar post to your own with the reasons why we the cabin crew were striking and fed up of being pushed around by bullying management and sc*ewed contiually.

I like yourself am not a militant,just someone who stands up for what they feel right.

My postings along with others from cabin crew got slated by our pilots and we were accused of all sorts,even our 'supposed' over paid wages posted on this site!!.

In return this year for what I know is hugh support for you our flight crew colleagues from the cabin crew,is a little moral support come our time of need.

We have two things in common.

1/ We get people from A 2 B as safely as possible.

2/ We are both managed by a group of incompetent,greedy bunch of idiots.

I close by wishing all the BA pilots the very best of luck in the days and weeks ahead.

This could signal the thin end of the wedge for many in our industry.

Regards,

WTDWL (Head of constant apologies in the Cabin).....but not overpaid!!;)

[JazzyKex]

Chris 777.

Further to what has been said so well by M. Mouse and other posters I think, if you look, that doctors and not permitted to strike.

Part of their contract states that they do not have the strike option open to them under any circumstances. Not that is even remotely relevant in this case, as the contract GP's negotiated was incredible poorly thought through by the government and no GP in his/her right mind would have have voted against it...and their 'union' suggested acceptance, in the same way BALPA has suggested to us to stand our ground in this issue now or see our future careers undermined and eventually be handed to pilots outwith the BA family. With well presented clear arguments from both BA and BALPA over this issue we as a pilot group have decided who's version of potential future events we trust.

I've not been in BA long but this really is a no brainer. In even my short time the management has shown that their word cannot be trusted, and their entire focus is on cost cutting, we see ourselves as the next long term target with this current Openskies set up.

All we are asking for is that the promises the management are making to us personally (Willie, and his blood written assurances) be put into our working agreements and set in stone for his eventual replacement to work around rather than wade through. Nothing more.

It is hugely disappointing that we are man managed so poorly that it has come to this, and that a resolution could not be negotiated prior to the ballot, but at what stage do you make your stand just to hold the ground you have as you see the chance of it being eroded in the future?

We as pilots truly hope this does not come to strike, but the collective decision is clear, the repercussions to our passengers all too clear also. For them this may be the pain of inconvenience, I truly hope they understand that for us this is the last and only option left to me to try to protect my career.

[alfamatt]

Arbitration/conciliation...................
I stand corrected.
Blame it on the Rioja.
Matt.

[angels]

SLF here. Don't worry about Chris777, he's obviously union hater who obviously has no idea about what goes on in the real world nowadays.

He's obviously completely contemptuous of 'factory workers' as well. I wonder if he's one? Perhaps he should vent his spleen against the largely overpaid legal profession's closed shop.

FWIW, and I'm sure you don't give a toss either way, your 'professional status' is in no way impaired in my eyes!

But anyway, good luck to you all. I know that going on strike is the final option. I imagine most of you have got mortgages to pay, families to look after etc, but the fact that some cretins are jumping up and down saying how important you all are and therefore you mustn't go on strike proves your value.

The very best of British, and I hope your management comes to their senses.

[PartickThistleNil]

M.Mouse

Quote:
I am not complaining that I am badly paid, I am just asking that we have a common seniority list of pilots employed by BA, flying BA aeroplanes, marketed with BA money and maintained by BA engineering and trained to common BA standards.



Does Cityflyer not fall into this category? Why did BALPA not insist that they were on the seniority list?

[Human Factor]

I wonder what happened to LHR747 and BA FAIR MANAGER? :E

[M.Mouse]

Does Cityflyer not fall into this category? Why did BALPA not insist that they were on the seniority list?

Your questions have already been answered previously. Completely different situation.

[900]

Fork Handles says that the secondments were offered by BA and not requested by BALPA. Not true. Originally BA did not want any link between mainline and OS. BALPA sought secondments, BA conceded in order to avoid a dispute!! BA is limiting secondments to 50% of command vacancies (+ a handful of FO vacancies) BALPA want more for mainline and understand exactly at what costto the promotion opportunities for FO DEPS into OS. That's why they expect BA to pay the bill by ensuring OS DEPS get a seniority number. Good old fashioned protectionism at play here by a powerful industrial group and BALPA officials meekly support them. Dressed up as off-shoring and an attack on T&Cs some way into the future but still nest feathering by BACC for their pilots at the expense of their brothers elsewhere.
And as WW says there will be no seniority number and you go on strike - then what?

[M.Mouse]

.....but still nest feathering by BACC for their pilots at the expense of their brothers elsewhere.

What arrant nonsense. If you must pontificate then at least have the decency to try and understand the issues.

[Human Factor]

BA is limiting secondments to 50% of command vacancies (+ a handful of FO vacancies)...

.... on five out of the initial six airframes. They won't discuss any subsequent airframes. Industry analysts reckon there'll be another 24 at least.

[Human Factor]

900,

Go away and read the 37 page thread on the background to the strike ballot HERE (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=309570). Specifically, the bits about where this tactic has been attempted with varying degrees of success in a number of major airlines around the world.

When you've read it, you can come back.:E

[courtney]

So you're all going on strike in case the company upsets you in the future. You're long suffering customers might upset you earlier, who in their right mind would book with BA.

[206cc_jim]

Completly different situation

Cityflyer dont do long haul so not worth fighting for!
:}

[M.Mouse]

Cityflyer dont do long haul so not worth fighting for!

Simplistic rubbish. Try reading the thread properly or, better still, try understanding it.

[Dave Bloke]

So you're all going on strike in case the company upsets you in the future.

No, mate. We're all going on strike because the company has upset us now by refusing to negotiate about one of our working agreements.:rolleyes:

If we don't do anything now, we won't be in a position in the future to do anything about it as they'll have control of another airline which could break a strike.

You're long suffering customers might upset you earlier, who in their right mind would book with BA.

Sadly, I'm inclined to agree with you - particularly given the recent industrial history of BA. With any luck, this will sort it out once and for all but if the current management are allowed to keep their jobs after this cock up I wouldn't hold out much hope.:ugh:

[tb10er]

So, BA pilots haven't been on strike for 28 years!

But CC have. So have baggage handlers at LHR.

As far as your average punter (passenger/pay master) is concerned, it is all the same thing. They don't distinguish. And that doesn't take into consideration baggage software problems, etc. etc.

If I were to book a flight now I would avoid BA and LHR like the plague.

As I have said before, if you feel so strongly about this, go on strike, and stay out. But that would hurt you then. 2 days off here and there is not such a hardship.

[206cc_jim]

maybe simplistic but true.

Look at LGW from an outsider they have nothing I want let alone LHR crew want so why fight for something that doesn't help them? same principle.

Very simplistic argument to say what I said about long haul, but if it doesn't benefit LHR crew, then no one inside the that little bubble cares what happens.. as it stands LHR pilots want a slice of the action(quicker promotion etc...) so now they are fighting...

[whattimedoweland]

tb10er,

Please read this thread fully and just for once in your life try and see it from someone elses side.

I agree if your travel plans are affected that is not good.If the next 25-30 years of a pilots life are affected that is even worst.

Like you thay have the same commitments,family,house,car.

Again as you have reminded them YOU pay our wages.Have a word with our excuse of a management team(YOU PAY THEIR WAGES TOO)!!,for it is they who are to blame for the industrial problems at BA not the employees.

If you really have so much angry to vent,why don't you have a go at your power provider who is pis*ing you off 365 days a year by increasing your fuel bills up 30%+!!.

WTDWL.

[Selac66]

Some food for thought - although it may only be applicable to a small portion of the BA pilot body. The act of withdrawing your services is all that you have available as a weapon against the beancounters. This can take three forms;

1. Individual Action. Typified by the 'I am an Army of One' philosophy. Ultimately futile but may be curiously satisfying to some and certainly a crowd-pleaser.

2. Union Action. As being discussed. Honorable, tried and true and predictable.

3. Empowerment.

I would suggest that the first two options should not be attempted without the third being firmly established.

Empowerment. You can call it whatever you like but it comes down to having real, viable, no 5hit options which you can take up if your other tactics fail. To be going on strike with a mortgage, kids at school, sailing addiction etc. and nothing else is foolhardy in the current world climate. The managers of the world have had decades of dealing with this dynamic and are ready to tackle it (with government support). Rather than manning the picket lines you should be flooding the in-trays of every major airline with your CVs (after all, you are gold in the global professional pilot stakes - no one can argue with that) - BUT - you have to have the intention of taking the job. That's the catch - you've got to be willing to walk. An example;

Qantas was poised to go medieval with its pilot body using the Workchoices legislation of the former government. Even without that coming to pass, a large portion of the pilot body started looking around in case the worst happened. Now, a Qantas job used to be a job for life, but, since people started to look around at what was available, some people, without any pressure, decided to walk. I know that a lot of Qantas people, newly stimulated, are weighing their options. Can I head back to the RAAF on a sweet deal? Go Emirates? Take promotion early with VirginBlue? A stint at Korean before retiring etc. Take a look at the Qantaslink regional thread for a taste of the mood.

This of course is not for everyone - after all it means turning your back on an icon - however this is not what the beancounters want. Thay want you to stay on, in parallel with the cheap option.

Look around, attend roadshows, send in CVs, post employment conditions online, regain your qualifications in other areas. If nothing else it may relieve a bit of bunker mentality and, who knows, you may meet your future second wife.

But, above all, EMPOWER yourself. Feels good.

[whattimedoweland]

206,

Total rubbish.Full stop.

At present,I for one am fighting for my colleagues at LGW SFG.

Golden runways (LHR)finished about 20 years ago.The year is 2008 and BA management don't like any of us.

WTDWL.

[Vino Collapso]

You are in a service industry guys, not a manufacturing one. No service, no industry. A few other now extinct major carriers forgot that.

It might be easier for your gold card pax to re-arrange their work schedule around your possible action but for us cattle up the back end it is more difficult. I am faced with months of planning, pre-booking, paying, connecting flight arranging, car hiring and accomodation booking being blown out of the water. So it is perhaps difficult for me to swallow the 'sorry for the inconvenience' line.

Who was that BALPA guy quoted in the press this morning as saying that his fight is not with the customers? Sorry guv but it looks different from my side of the fence.

I had better start rehearsing how I am going to explain to a wife and two kids that their annual Easter trip has been binned by a group of highly trained, highly skilled and professional people who have got the same gripe about the ability of their managers as every other employee on the planet.

Get real guys, good luck to you and I hope you win your war (I really do, I work for duff managers who mess around with T & C as well) but don't expect me and a whole load of other cattle to be happy.

[marlowe]

Vino. if you had a dispute with the company you work for what would you do to resolve the situation? If you have done all the talking and nothing has been resolved what would you do to get the companies attention would you strike? I dont know what you do for a living but if you went on strike it would have ramifications on your companies customers, profit ,etc etc would you consider that to be ok? I think you would justify it cos its about you. Your only taking the stance you are purely for selfish reasons ie. your holiday might be affected, infact if it wasnt for that you probably wouldnt have an opinion on the subject.

[Housewife-43]

The Housewife household is in more or less the same predicament as the Collapso household - we are due to fly out to Colorado a week Sunday. A few days ago I was wondering what on earth was going to happen? Were we going to get out there, would we be able to rearrange our holiday dates, accommodation booking, car booking etc. As things stand now I gather our outbound flight should be OK but what will happen on our return flight is anybody's business.

I realise you pilots are in a difficult position, I really do, and I sympathise wholeheartedly with you. I have worked for more than my share of clowns in my time. I also realise that we are complaining about a spoiled holiday while you are fighting for the rest of your careers.

BUT - these holidays are not just any old two weeks of the year for us. They are two weeks that we have long anticipated, worked hard for, planned for, and in many cases moved heaven and earth to organise. We face having everything thrown up in the air, and even being stranded overseas by your industrial action.

Be under no illusions here, passengers are tired of BA's incompetence. This latest farrago will be the last straw on the camel's back.

I now face travelling abroad not knowing how or when I will be returning. This will not happen to me again. I will never, ever, book a flight with BA again.

The routes are opening up this year and passengers will be able to chose an airline to fly with. Who on earth would chose to fly BA with its recent history of indistrial disputes?

You won't be worrying about terms and conditions for the rest of your career then, you'll be worrying about whether you will have a job in six or twelve months.

Both the union and the airline have to reach an agreement here, and very soon, if you are to have any hope of retaining your customers.

[Tandemrotor]

PartickThistleNil and 206_ccjim

Just so you don't have to acquaint yourselves with the facts! It was a complicated issue, but basically the reason the BA Cityflyer RJ pilots aren't on the mainline seniority list, is because the BACX CC wouldn't allow it.

They had perfectly valid reasons.

No conspiracy by BA, or BA BALPA.

Move along now folks.

[Vino Collapso]

I have had my say and will now leave the arena.

But take a look at history in the UK. British Leyland (if you are old enough), the Miners strike, numerous postal workers disputes the list is endless. What happened to them? No one could be bothered buying British Leyland anymore and they went bust. The mines were closed and miners laid off. Post Offices remain under threat and are being closed down.

Other bodies jumped into their shoes. Japanese and European car manufacturers, foreign coal imports and private courier services.

If your action escalates your competitors will take the food off your plate.

Soap box put away, tin hat on, doors to manual, let return fire commence.....:uhoh:

[skidoodog]

The uncertainty that passengers feel about their travel plans are all part and parcel of the strike vote. What is almost as good as a strike is the threat of one ne ce pas?

Stand firm boys. The world is watching our worldwide collective futures unfold.

For travelers inconvenienced by this I would say sorry, book elsewere. This proffession is being erroded to the point of being pointless. Travellers have been enjoying dirt cheep travel at our collective expense and management has parred the product down to a dim memory of what flying used to be about.

Enough is enough.

[Hand Solo]

But take a look at history in the UK. British Leyland (if you are old enough), the Miners strike, numerous postal workers disputes the list is endless. What happened to them? No one could be bothered buying British Leyland anymore and they went bust. The mines were closed and miners laid off. Post Offices remain under threat and are being closed down.

Leyland went bust because their products were rubbish and they didn't turn a profit.
The mines were closed because foreign coal was cheaper and there was little product differentiation.
Post Offices being closed has nothing to do with postal strikes and everything to do with the increase in internet use and the decline in over the counter banking and benefit receipt.

Those aren't very good examples when dealing with a highly profitable, highly differentiated airline.

[nivsy]

Dirt cheap travel? Have you seen the price on mainline BA for the short hop say between LHR and GLA when not booked well in advance and or if one wants a flexible ticket? Cheap travel on the whole is the result of competition - same as any other industry. I am happy to say long gone is the monoploy of BA and as a regular pax as well I am quite happy to where possible seek alternative operator and not book BA.

The issues raised and the grievances are no doubt well founded - however as others have said in this forum it is a service industry and us pax have also had enough.

I hope you get what you want - but one wonders if the travelling public will ever return to you.

[Housewife-43]

We will book elsewhere. Then what will you have achieved?

[Pandora]

I haven't been here for ages, and came over to Pprune for an entirely different matter, but I'm going to add my two-pennorth here because this niggled me;

I also realise that we are complaining about a spoiled holiday while you are fighting for the rest of your careers.

BUT - these holidays are not just any old two weeks of the year for us. They are two weeks that we have long anticipated, worked hard for, planned for, and in many cases moved heaven and earth to organise. We face having everything thrown up in the air, and even being stranded overseas by your industrial action.


My heart bleeds for you. If you feel the need to visit a pilot's forum and weep about your spoilt holiday at the same time as acknowledging that your 2 weeks is as nothing compared to 3000+ people's careers, you ain't going to get much sympathy.

If it's any consolation to you, not only am I going to have to fight the Open Skies issue, but my family holiday (my little one's first holiday) will be spoilt too. Double bummer!

Now. Back to complaining about the idiot helicopter pilot who keeps buzzing my house. My learned BA colleagues here look as if they are able to put across the pilot's view much more eloquently than I can.

[Georgey]

To all you moaning passengers:

Do you really think that your couple of weeks holiday a year is a lot more important than the futures of the BA guys?

They too have families, mortgages, holidays etc that will be affected for a lot longer than your precious 2 week holiday this year.

Have some thought for others.

[marlowe]

Question for all the holidaymakers who keep pointing out that we are in a service industry what do you do when you have a dispute with your employer? Do you just moan and groan about it around the water cooler or do you do something about it? Lets hear your ideas on how to resolve this matter then, its easy to come on here and complain about your holiday being messed up not so easy to come up with an answer that doesnt include withdrawing your labour.

[Vino Collapso]

I was supposed to be out of here but I will take the bait.

Do you really think that your couple of weeks holiday a year is a lot more important than the futures of the BA guys?

So you all think that if WW and his cronies get what they want you will all be out of work??

Why is that? I bet you will still have a job.

I can see the newspaper headlines tomorrow.......PPrune posting confirms pilots consider themselves more important than their customers.

As a brave man once said "never let a customer get in the way of a good job"

My heart bleeds for you. If you feel the need to visit a pilot's forum and weep about your spoilt holiday at the same time as acknowledging that your 2 weeks is as nothing compared to 3000+ people's careers, you ain't going to get much sympathy.


Then if you do not want to hear another side of the story and continue winding yourselves up then keep it in the privacy of the BA forum.

The bottom line is that I hope you win your war. I am old and wrinkly enough to have worked for some complete pl**kers over the years and have every sympathy with your problem, but the route you are following is IMHO going nowhere long term. If you win this battle, and you might although WW will not leave the fight without something in his favour, then the managers will erode your T & C in other ways.

...and I am not here for sympathy just to point out that public opinion will most likely not be behind you. You can say on here that you do not need it, but in the end you need their future business in an ever more competitive world.

Can I leave the arena again now please?

Regards

Vino
(employed in the aviation industry)

[flybywire]

this is the best post I have read so far and I thought that after 7 pages of discussion it was worth quoting it again. It's from one of my colleagues. WTDWL I could have written these words myself. Thank you for saving my fingers ;)

Maybe you should have a go at the BA Management team and not the staff,this time the pilots.

Once you have clammed down (fare paying,wage paying passenger) and we thank you for that,we the staff never forget that?,ask yourself why are so many NON MILITANT workers having so many problems?!!.

Cabin crew last year,now the pilots,Cabin crew again being balloted in about two weeks and then our colleagues on check in!!.

We can't all be wrong!!.

We the staff/employees appreciate you pay our wages and also those very large wages of our management team,who in fact could'nt manage anything.

They are cutting costs everywhere,staff wages,T&C's to make more profit and line their own pockets yet again.However when they reduce the loading of Club washbags and take off the 10 disposable razors we used to provide that affects the service we give to you.

None of us at BA regardless of department,want to affect anyones travel arrangements.No matter when it happens it will affect someone.

I personally apologise if your travel plans are disrupted(thats all I do in the cabin these days is say sorry!!),BA won't apologise,just blame others for their inability to,listen,negotiate and manage.

Don't write to customer relations,they are short of staff also and saying sorry to 1000'S who have not got their bags again.Write to Willie Walsh and tell him what you think of him and his incompetent management team.

I wish you luck in your easter travel plans.Our disputes and problems as staff will affect the rest of our working lifes.

WTDWL.

[pingopango]

I think it's fair to say that most people, when working in well salaried jobs will be expected to do hours of unpaid overtime however with no guarantee of reward. As a BA pilot the more hours you do the further up the list you go, very few industries give this non meritocratic reward.

I am sure there is a compromise and I hope it will be found because this country is getting a little over the top with striking.

BA is a Public company and it Directors have a right to demand the best possible return for Shareholders. The European Airline Market is going to be a bloodbath and BA's success will depend on Open Skies not being manipulated by an industry desperate to hang on to rewards that are not present in any other professional industry.

[marlowe]

Pingo those so called "rewards" were negotiated over many years why would you want to just throw them away with out a fight? I am sure if someone came along and tried to take your rewards of you then you would fight to save them!

[nivsy]

Marlowe - you are right. Its not easy and seeking a solution through negotiation is always going to be the final outcome.

We are not all talking about holidaymakers here. Some of us fly for business - pay the big bucks for the "pleasure "of doing so only to have an internal dispute disrupt our business and possibly more.

Luckily most of us will have a choice - and once gone I hope BA enjoy flying half empty planes. The "better the devil you know" approach will be lost. The inept attitude of some towards their customer base somewhat surprises me.

[pingopango]

Marlowe, terms negotiated under threat are not very popular in todays world.

I do sympathise and that is why I hope there is compromise but this market is a whole lot bigger now and BA does not have the strength it once did, if it doesn't compete it has no divine right.

The US carriers do not have to play by the same rules as the US Government has already proven. BA and it's pilots needs to show flexibility.

[marlowe]

Nivsy nobody wants to strike its the last thing anybody wants including the pilots BUT what do you do to get BA focused and talking again? Unless the threat of withdrawal of labour is there then they are not going to listen .

[gatbusdriver]

blah blah blah blah blah

There are some very patient people on here trying to explain to you poor PAX what this is all about. Some of you are clearly choosing not to listen, you haven't read all 35 or so pages regarding the issues involved, or you are just plain stupid.

Please go to the appropriate forum to whine. You are not wanted here.

There are serious issues at stake, affecting the long term security of BA pilots.

Not one of you have suggested a better alternative to where to go next. Why is that?

That is because BALPA has gone down all the avenues. Then amazingly when the pilots show solidarity WW wants to talk again.

[747-436]

For those worried about dates of any possible strike action if I am right in my limited understanding of UK law on this the strike has to take place within the 28 period after the ballot result, and with 7 days notice.

So from this moment any strike can only take place between Feb 29th & 20th March. So at the moment it won't directly affect the T5 opening on 27th March

[pingopango]

What? Gatbusdriver, you are not helping you or your colleagues plight with that sort of post.

The 'whining' you get here will only be the beginning, I suspect you will be adopting the brace position.

I suspect however that most of your colleagues actually want to talk though and that there will be a result.

Your aggression is not an advert for the Pilot plight, may I advise you take the backbench.

[nivsy]

Marlowe - I appreciate no one really wants to strike and to be honest I do have elements of sympathy towards "the cause".

For everyones sake all I would say is please do remember your customer base - we will also be affected by this.

I have said enough.

[M.Mouse]

BA and it's pilots needs to show flexibility.

We are not trying to prevent BA competing in the real world, we just want the opportunity, if OpenLies is a success, to share in that success. BA somehow see that as a threat. BALPA have been very good in recent years in reaching equitable solutions to some fairly difficult problems, pensions being one of them.

If we were truly inflexible and did not have an eye to teh future profitablity of BA we would have been balloting for strike action over those other issues.

WW obviously sees vast rewards, not least for himself and that inaptly named 'leadership team'. Fine but he is not going to achieve that off my and others contributions while at the same time freezing us out of any future share of those rewards. In fact I believe it is his intention to rapidly undermine and minimise the rewards I and my colleagues currently enjoy.

[Barcli]

nivsy - well said.
the customers are already walking - long may they continue to walk:)

[atyourcervix73]

This is simple cause and effect, WW and his bunch of merry sandal wearing latte' quaffers have had the message loud and clear, now they want to start talking again:rolleyes:
Oh to be a fly on the wall.....
"Mr Walsh, its 86% in favour of a strike....."
"Begooooora Sebastion, not again? where oh where are we going wrong?"

[gatbusdriver]

pingo

Do you understand the issues and why the crew voted for strike action?

It is a shame that customers are affected, nature of the beast i'm afraid. What you don't realise is that the crew are not looking for your support

[Vino Collapso]

I think my braces are caught on something as I keep pulled back in here. (I am trying to lighten the atmosphere in case anyones in doubt)

There are some very uptight people posting here, both pilot and customer, and they have a right to be upset. I can take posings like gatbusdrivers on the chin, but can I now put my 'holidaymaker' title back in its box.

Games of industrial cat and mouse like this have been around since God was a boy. Yes you have to show solidarity if you are going to be listened to and you have certainly achieved that. You have got them back to the discussion table again.

But realistically you are not going to leave the table with no change to your current status. Those who have said that BA has to remain competitive are quite correct and that will mean some changes. ( ref my earlier posting British Leyland, the National Coal Board and probalby in the future the Post Office are/were just not competitive, whoevers fault it might have been)

I was once told that Accountants know the price of everything and the value of nothing. That is especially true for human resources as well as material. But unfortunately they hold a lot the the company strings these days.

Get yourselves together through your union rep's and decide how much give and take has got to be allowed for. Give WW and his crowd something they can hold up to the press as a 'victory' so they can back out without losing face.

If you give BA's PR Department a sows ear they should be able to make a silk purse out of it if they are any good at their job.

[pingopango]

Human Nature dictates that they are.

And you do want my support, I can be very confident of that.

Why are you not more constructive?

It is not Pilots V BA.

[marlowe]

Vino I think everybody understands that a compromise will have to be reached around the table and that some giving and taking will need to take place BUT its the threat of a strike that has now got WW back to wanting to talk again .

[Bellerophon]

747-436

...So from this moment any strike can only take place between Feb 29th & 20th March...

I think the wording of the legislation is that industrial action must commence within those dates.

I don't think it requires it to be conducted or concluded within those dates.

In other words, provided a minimum of 7 days notice of industrial action was given to BA, no later than 13 March, and that industrial action actually commenced no later than 20 March, any industrial action could then legally continue indefinitely.


...So at the moment it won't directly affect the T5 opening on 27th March...

From a legal point of view, I don't think it is something one can discount at present. What will actually happen, I haven't a clue.

Any of M'learned Friends reading this care to comment on the relevant TU law?

Regards

Bellerophon

[747-436]

Bellerophon, I stand corrected.

So obviously it could affect the opening of T5 if it were to commence on say 19th of March and continue from there.

Or for example could they announce a 2 day strike for 19/20 March and then another 2 days a week later and so on and so on. As long as the actual notification took place before the end of the 28 day period?

Lets hope it doesn't get to that!

[stormin norman]

'It is a shame that customers are affected, nature of the beast i'm afraid. What you don't realise is that the crew are not looking for your support'.

Funny that ,where do you think the pilots wages come from ?

[Orion Man]

I feel sorry for the holiday-makers too but if you are looking for someone to blame, direct your anger at BA Management. Willie Walsh is solely responsible for the current state of affairs with his no-negotiation stance and he has had months to change his approach.

My personal feeling is the pilots should have started striking next week not leave the management more time to come up with a smoke and mirrors way out of their intransigence.

Regards

Orion Man

[Hand Solo]

Funny that ,where do you think the pilots wages come from ?

Well as I don't recall passing my hat around for tips at the end of each flight I guess my wages come from BA, just like Willies do. Maybe he's got an interest in resolving the dispute too.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If you can think of a way to secure my future terms and conditions without needing to go on strike (something that BALPA have not already thought of), my colleagues and I (and no doubt BA management) would be delighted to hear it.
So what exactly is specially magic about BA pilots that their employment and Ts&Cs should be protected? - the rest of the world's workforce hasn't had that luxury for decades.

Ticket sales are down how much exactly since the ballot result was announced? - going on strike is a dinosaur practice in a dinosaur industry, and pissing off the customers just brings the end of the gravy train that much closer.

[Hand Solo]

Whats so special about your pay Gertrude? I'll stick my neck out and say if the boss told you you were taking a 30% pay cut you'd protest. Nothing like a bit of hypocrisy.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Whats so special about your pay Gertrude?
Not a lot. I haven't yet been able to push my hourly rate back up to what it was before the dot.com crash, not now that I'm having to compete on price with Indian outsourcing companies for each piece of work.

That's the real world.

How come BA doesn't mostly have Indian pilots anyway?

[mrsofty]

The good news is the Indians don't have enough of their own Pilots!

[Hand Solo]

Because they can't work here and they don't have enough pilots in their home market to meet domestic demand, let alone coming to the UK. That's the real world as you like to put it, supply and demand. Now, which part of the dot com boom reflected reality? All that work put into companies that generated lots of hype but no profit. IT sector wages were artificially inflated to an unsustainable level as everyone jumped onto the bandwagon. As I sit back and watch my company report excellent profits and record breaking profit margins I wonder whether me wages are artificially high.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Because they can't work here
Why not? Is there some artificial protectionism going on here? Coo!- some workers are lucky, aren't they. (Well, for as long as it lasts, until they have to compete internationally on a level playing field like the rest of us.)

[TheKabaka]

So what exactly is specially magic about BA pilots that their employment and Ts&Cs should be protected? - the rest of the world's workforce hasn't had that luxury for decades.



This is not about BA pilots terms and conditions, even WW says he has no wish to reduce mainline pay (and after a 1st 3 quaters profit of £700m and 10% operating profit being in sight why would he). This is about opportunities for BA pilots and yet to be hired OS pilots.

If this goes ahead with no change to scope an internal market for BA work will develop and mainline will lose routes/jobs/aircraft. We just want to participate in the growth possible in OS, BALPA have offered to have a new contract for OS pilots written by BA. In short THIS IS NOT ABOUT MONEY FOR MAINLINE PILOTS.

[hellsbrink]

All I can say is that if BA THINK this "Open Skies" idea is a good one then I will happily back the pilots when the aircraft are grounded. Given the chance, I would be at the brazier with y'all.

(And that comes from an SLF who has the utmost respect for you guys driving these things)

[mrsofty]

I think there is plenty of competition from Indian airlines and we hold our own pretty well!!
And they struggle to hire as many European Pilots as they can.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

My utmost respect and backing from me to you BA guys. It is good to see that some pilot bodies still have a strong will :) If you fail, the rest of us are all going to wear harps in different colours :{

[petermcleland]

I would just like to appeal for a little calm here :)

I'm confident that what will happen is a small compromise from each side and the strike threat will vanish. Everyone will be moderately happy.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Interesting to see the gnashing of teeth by so many low-number pax posters on this thread.

One could be dreadfully cynical and suggest that BA mis-management maybe attempting to drive a propaganda war against those oh-so terrible pilots.

No, they'd never resort to dirty tricks like that would they........

[900]

Tandem,
No issue?
I undersatnd that Sch K takes CityFlyer pilots into BA seniority List sometime in 2010 if they increase the lease on the RJs.
Who is telling the whole truth based on full knowledge here?
Listen to all sides

[900]

Arrant nonsense?
Help me then with the facts please?
I'm truly interested. Hopefully, so will other readers.
Thanks

[pacamack]

BA have offered BA Pilots secondment into OpenSkies on OS T&Cs but with their seniority, pensions and other BA benefits protected.

The management don't want a common seniority list across mainline and OS because they don't want to operate a seniority based system in OS, they want a meritocratic system.

Surely, there are no more compromises or negotiations to be made? How does this make the BA management, incompetent, belligerent, pig-headed etc..? How does this make the BA management solely responsible for the BALPA strike action?

[Vino Collapso]

Interesting to see the gnashing of teeth by so many low-number pax posters on this thread.

One could be dreadfully cynical and suggest that BA mis-management maybe attempting to drive a propaganda war against those oh-so terrible pilots.

No, they'd never resort to dirty tricks like that would they........

I have nothing whatsoever to do with BA management. The reason there is a low number of postings from pax is that this is not a pax forum and the vast majority of the worlds population is blissfully unaware of PPrune existence.

If someone was to paste a link to this discussion to a place where Joe Public hangs out you would get a pretty nasty response.

I had hoped that BA pilots had moved on from the days of Hamble trained 'hamsters' and the thought that they were above the rest of the flying world.

Looks like I am wrong. Pity......

How do you know if a BA pilot is in the bar? Don't worry he willl soon tell you!

I hate that old joke but I see it is still correct even today.

regards
Vino

(34 years in the aviation business and have got the T shirt)

[Hot Wings]

Good joke but I prefer the one that goes....

How do you know if there's a BA manager in the bar?

He'll be there at 2.30pm on a Monday afternoon, sitting on his own with a laptop and drinking a decaf latte. :ugh:

[Dockjock]

Pilots can not just "quit" if they don't like something. Unless some kind of global rejig (or abandonment) of the seniority-based system occurs, BA pilots, and all airline pilots worldwide are affected by this end-run around BALPA's scope. My union has pledged support and while I hope it is not needed, we will be there to protect the profession if required. This is not just a BA problem- they just happen to be the first ones to stand up against it. Unlike QANTAS/Jetstar.

[blimey]

Just another timely reminder that this is a Professional Pilots' Rumour Network. So can all you disaffected passengers kindly poke off into the ether and let the pros get on with their internecine bitching and moaning.

Good luck and well done to the BALPA boys :ok:.

Thankyou and goodnight.

[Hand Solo]

How does this make the BA management, incompetent, belligerent, pig-headed etc..? How does this make the BA management solely responsible for the BALPA strike action?

How about stonewalling BALPA for 6+ months when they wanted to talk about OS? How about refusing to negotiate on anything whatsoever to do with OS for the two months that they were actually willing to speak about it? How about refusing point blank to allow any BALPA rep to see the OS business plan, then on the eve of the strike ballot result deciding that, actually, any BA pilot can see it if they want it?

I'd say those made BA management incompetent, belligerent and pig-headed.

Why not? Is there some artificial protectionism going on here? Coo!- some workers are lucky, aren't they. (Well, for as long as it lasts, until they have to compete internationally on a level playing field like the rest of us.)

Congrats Gertrude, you win the prize for most moronic comment of the day. As it's clearly escaped your notice Indian citizens generally don't have the right to live and work in the EU, just like citizens of any other non-EU nation and, yes, you too are protected by that. If you weren't those offshore Indian processing centres wouldn't be necesary as the Indians would be in the UK, competing for your job here. If you're going to come out with downright stupid statements like that maybe you should restrict yourself to the PPL forum.

[sidtheesexist]

Hand - cannot believe you've dignified the tosh that packamak spouts by responding.......;)

To CC colleagues and members of the public posting messages of support - many thanks. We will win this dispute - we are many. Any BA managers masquerading here/monitoring this thread - please be under no illusion as to the resolve and determination of the overwhelming majority of the BA pilots.

Incompetent management has brought about this impasse and is LARGELY responsible for the daily operational shambles at LHR that the crew and pax alike have to endure..........

Willie's so obsessed with cutting costs to achieve the panacea of a 10% operating margin that daily, departments are so poorly resourced/managed that they can't perform their functions effectively. Result - an operational shambles that makes the Keystone Cops look the epitome of professional competence.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

If you weren't those offshore Indian processing centres wouldn't be necesary as the Indians would be in the UK, competing for your job here.
They are and they do.

There are things called "work permits".

In most of industry these are issued to foreigners when there is seen to be a "shortage" of local workers.

"Shortage" is defined by the employers as "we have to pay these local b*gg*rs too much, so that means there is a shortage, so we must import some foreign workers so as to get pay levels back down to something which enables us to compete with the Chinese".

Government says to business "yes, good point, here are the work permits".

Does this general rule somehow not apply to BA pilots? If it doesn't then, as I said, aren't they lucky, for the time being.

[cockney steve]

Back at #56, I suggested that pilots(well,all employees) could buy shares in BA.

Human Factor was the only reply(63) pointing out that the MANAGEMENT has preferential share -purchase options.

this strikes me as a real dog-in -a -manger attitude1...So, you're in exactly the same position as any other private investor.I'd suggest that 3,000 pilots could very rapidly accumulate a huge block of BA shares if they only put ,say 5% of their net income into the "pot"

BA is making huge profits...YOU have shares, YOU draw dividends, Dividends buy MORE shares. QED .

BUT collectively, YOU have the ability to vote at shareholder meetings and affect the running of the company.....I'm quite amazed this "back-door" approach hasn't been exploited.

Others(Sulac66,post 110) also suggest that empowerment is a way forward.

VOTING WITH YOUR FEET. Is there gross overcapacity in the airline industry?
No?....then all yo pilots that leave, will find jobs with the other carriers who take-on the pax that BA no longer has staffing capability to move.
BA then has a choice, attract good staff / sell the surplus aircraft / go bust.
Reading the early posts, over 2,000 pilots are unhappy...how many pax journeys do they represent?-I'd suggest ,enough to cause a major political row as well as an upset in the financial markets.

Last time I flew BA was a Viscount to Benbecula! for my then-employer. (I'm just an impoverished prole)
Without the LoCo's, I'd have never been abroad ..so, Ive no dog in this fight, but that doesn't mean that I agree with powerful management totally lacking in morality!

Blimey, post 171. I take your comments as ill-construed....this is STILL a PUBLIC arena , the admin appear to do an excellent job of weeding dross and trolls, therefore, i'd respectfully suggest that you consider reading the posts from us "outsiders"and learning something useful from them.

The comments regarding Leyland, Coal,Etc. were, IMHO, on the mark.
Others offered a better, cheaper, more reliable product..the clever employees left and got positions with the well-managed "foreigners"....the rest stayed and grumbled and took industrial action as their industry went down the crapper!
History repeats. Sometimes, lessons ARE learned . BA is out of sync with 21st. century travel, imo.(the proportion who travel "cattle" should be some sort of pointer to that.

Protect your position, but be aware that this is ,primarily a BUSINESS and i've attempted to help you see it from that perspective.

[Mister Geezer]

Despite the many quibbles that we have seen from pilots who are not employed by BA, I think I am right in saying that the majority of non BA pilots are 100% behind your bid for a transparent and fair integration of OS into the BA family!

Whilst no one ever wants to actually go on strike - if it does come to that then I wish the BA brethren a swift and successful conclusion to the issues that need to be resolved. :ok:

[two green one prayer]

I'm afraid that Cockney Steve's suggestion that BA pilots should buy shares in the company is a bad idea unless each pilot only buys a few in order to make a fuss at the annual meeting. That could work. BA relies heavily on image and spends a lot maintaining it. The mere threat of a large group of pilots asking awkward questions at the annual meeting might make the directors think twice, especially if the press was tipped off in advance.
As a straightforward pension enhancing investment it would be a dead loss on any reasonable overview of the future world economy. It is also a very bad idea to invest in the business that pays your wages. If the business gets into difficulty your investment and your job disappear down the drain together.
This does not apply to the management's share options because these are usually sold at well below market price and the management either knows about, or hears gossip about coming trouble before anyone else.

THIS IS NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE. I AM NOT QUALIFIED TO GIVE INVESTMENT ADVICE.

If you lose money by not buying BA shares please do not drop blue ice on my house.

[Human Factor]

So, you're in exactly the same position as any other private investor.

I am a shareholder, albeit a very minor one. The point I make though is that you would think employees would be given some form of preferential treatment from their own company when it comes to share purchases. In fact, surely by encouraging employees to take an active part in the ownership of the company you are engaging them more with respect to ensuring the successful future of that company rather than destroying morale by cutting and cutting until there's nothing left. Is it any wonder most people in BA stick rigidly to their agreements? Where is the perceived benefit of going that extra mile?

[BA-BEANCOUNTER]

2 Green 1 Prayer is spot on. A few shares each allows you to make a fuss, and symbolically vote against the directors. You may be surprised how few shareholders actually vote!
To invest large sums, however, is complete folly. A lot of eggs in one basket.

Good luck

ex- BA but still a beancounter

[whattimedoweland]

Dysag,

Await the arrival of T5,certainly not the answer to all our prayers at BA but one that will give our passengers in the Premium Cabins,Gold and Premier Card holders 5 new lounges costing 72 million pounds and all passengers better facilities all round.I have not seen the lounges first hand but am told they knock spots of the competiton.

Better baggage performance to add to this will keep our premium passengers very much with BA.

If they leave us ,their loss,if they stay or come back they will enjoy the benefits.

WTDWL.

[Rongotai]

I know I'm not allowed here because I'm SLF and a member of Joe Public, but I just want to say to the BA pilots that at least THIS person agrees with what you BA pilots are doing here. Too many people have forgotten what was gained through employee organised action in the past, and what is being lost today because such actions have been eroded.

Kia kaha.

[cockney steve]

Mr. beancounter, I don't think that 5% of your net takehome would be "a large sum" for any individual.

Both you and HF are stating that you have insufficient faith in the company, to invest in it, yoet you decry the management milking this enterprise dry for the shareholders who risk losing their cash (your implied scenario)-you are really appearing to want the penny and the toffee.unrealistic expectation.
my suggestion was ,I thought, well-considered. Depending on your definition of " a few" (shares) depends on wether you're percieved as a rabble rouser or a serious stakeholder in the prosperity and success of the company
Two Green, On Prayer's attitude is a prime example, typifying the "I wouldn't risk MY cash, but I'll take yours " approach.

The choice is, therefore, collectively take charge ,effectively, of the company ,and return the business to it's CORE VALUE. ( top-quality , safe transport of persons and freight,)

OR leave and seek employment with a Co. which acknowledges a duty to give the paying punter fair value for their money.
Staff, whilst they are the dearest cost to a company,are also it's biggest strength. your management continues to abuse it's biggest asset at it's own peril.

I, too was fed-up with working for incompetent idiots. I started paddling my own canoe , 30 years ago and been self-employed ever since...I don't have someone to wipe my tears if it goes pear-shaped, so I make considered decisions and careful investments...I collect the rewards as well as the bills.

remember, "nothing ventured, nothing gained"

[biddedout]

Not sure how the implanted management team plans to run a meritocracy system in OS. They failed miserably in BACon where training jobs were still subject to interview and training record as well as seniority.

They managed to announce a batch of Training Captain vacancies and at the same time roster the ‘successful’ applicants for their courses before the interviews had taken place.:ok:

Meritocracy is unlikely to be a success in this industry until management stop recruiting their own with a wink and a special handshake and until they understand what it actually means.

[SR71]

I'm just curious as why anyone would moan about a potential strike affecting their return from holiday?

The skiing is mighty good in the US at the moment....

:ok:

[overstress]

yet again postings on this forum are lifted by the UK national newspapers and treated as gospel, even though the journos have no way of knowing who is who.... :hmm:

Scenario: BA manager poses as disgruntled Mrs Trellis from North Wales and is seen to 'have a go' at the pilots' stance.

This winds up some of our more headstrong individuals - end result - they play straight into BA's hands ending up in the Sunday Times...

...that could never happen! :cool:

[rebellion]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2008-02-21-ba-strike_N.htm

[Fake Sealion]

I had hoped that BA pilots had moved on from the days of Hamble trained 'hamsters' and the thought that they were above the rest of the flying world.


Now wait a moment there! As a pilot trained at the other side of the railway line at Hamble - I resemble that remark! Greetings to all Ex SUAS BA pilots:ok:

Now .......back to the fray!

[OZOS]

You go boys & girls!!!!


No body wants to strike - but someone has to stop Mugabe Walsh before he ruins a great Company!

Both employees and customers have seen the results of his raping an pillaging.

[411A]

So, when does this so-called strike action begin?

[3Greens]

no dates announced yet. BALPA and BA are in concilliatory talks today as a "last ditch" effort to reach a satisfactory outcome.

[Serguei]

I work hard for a whole year and I bought tickets to go with my wife on a holiday. Why should I suffer because of somebody else’s “industrial dispute”? It is not fare. I have not done anything to deserve it.
If one does not like pay and conditions one should go and find another job where pay and conditions are better, not use Joe Public as a hostage in his fight with the employer.

[G-BPED]

I work hard for a whole year and I bought tickets to go with my wife on a holiday. Why should I suffer because of somebody else’s “industrial dispute”? It is not fare. I have not done anything to deserve it.
If one does not like pay and conditions one should go and find another job where pay and conditions are better, not use Joe Public as a hostage in his fight with the employer.

Serguei,

Whilst I have sympathy for your "possibly" spoiled holiday ( as yet there is no set date for the strike ).

However, your words " If one does not like pay and conditions one should go and find another job where pay and conditions are better " are incorrect with regard to the pilots dispute.

The pilots are not asking for Better Conditions. They wish to preserve what conditions they already have and I for one do not blame them one single bit.

I am a frequent business flyer and would be seriously affected should a strike occur but, the pilots have my full backing.


Regards,

G-BPED

[Serguei]

Strikes are not fare. Majority of people have jobs where they cannot hold people as hostages. This gives those who are in such position and unfair advantages over everybody else as they can negotiate with the employer pay and conditions above what the market would give them.

Next time a pilot goes on strike why not go and look into the eyes of the families (many with children) at check-in who just realised that their only holidays are cancelled?

Would the striking pilots dare to explain to the children whose holidays they destroyed that this year they don't have the holiday they were looking forward for several month? Somehow I supposed they would prefer to leave these to check-in staff...

[Megaton]

Ok Seguei,

Your employer intends to attack your terms and conditions by some underhand and duplicitous method so do you:

a. Do nothing and have your family's future lifestyle further eroded.

b. Fight back to maintain the status quo (which isn't as good as you might think in the first place).

BALPA offered negotiation. BALPA was happy for OS pilots to operate to different T & Cs. BA walked away from the table with a final and unacceptable offer.

Would you like to explain to my children why they haven't had a holiday in 3 years either?

[pacamack]

I can't see that the pilots have been "dragged" into anything.

The pilots have an agreement in place that had been negotiated with the management, pilots want to change it and the managment don't, so the pilots call a strike.

How this is the responsibility of the management?

[G-BPED]

Strikes are not fare. Majority of people have jobs where they cannot hold people as hostages. This gives those who are in such position and unfair advantages over everybody else as they can negotiate with the employer pay and conditions above what the market would give them.

Next time a pilot goes on strike why not go and look into the eyes of the families (many with children) at check-in who just realised that their only holidays are cancelled?

Would the striking pilots dare to explain to the children whose holidays they destroyed that this year they don't have the holiday they were looking forward for several month? Somehow I supposed they would prefer to leave these to check-in staff...

Serguei,

I did try to explain to you in my last post that the pilots are NOT asking for increased pay and conditions. they want to keep what they already have and not have things taken away from them.

Maybe you should read through this thread

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=309570

Which explains the reasons for the strike ballott.

As for pilots looking into the eyes of children at the check-in desk. I think that is rather melodramatic. If there is a strike then Check-in will be closed as there will be no flights operating.

I would say that I appreciate the position you and your family MAY find yourselves in but, as I pointed out in my last post all the pilots want is their current conditions to be maintained and I would support anyone who wants that for themselves and their families.

Regards,

G-BPED

[Human Factor]

Next time a pilot goes on strike why not go and look into the eyes of the families (many with children) at check-in who just realised that their only holidays are cancelled?

Next time you fly on holiday (or perhaps in a few years time), why not go and look into the eyes of the pilots (many with children) at the controls who just realised that their terms and conditions had been eroded by about 30%.

Alternatively, fly QANTAS and you can experience it today.:ugh:

[Fake Sealion]

Lets assume for a moment the concillation talks fail and a strike is announced with the required notice.

What exactly will be the options offerred by BA to non-refundable BA ticket holders if their flight is cancelled. Partial refund? Flight vouchers?

As such a ticket holder, I am simply trying to line up a contigency plan for existing car hire, onward (non BA) flights and hotel bookings OR considering binning the whole holiday.:*

As previously posted, I back to pilots action but still would like to salvage something from a long awaited trip.

I have emailed BA 4 times over the weekend and today - no response:ugh:

Pretty rich for a company which banked my hard earned dosh last September.:mad:

[intortola]

Mr Bunker etc - you may be suprised and find you do have quite a lot of support from the general public. For those of us that have read this thread and understand the reasons we fully support you. I too have flights booked in the coming months, luckily they are fully changeable. I hope it doesnt come down to a strike but if it does stick to your guns and win, do not let it all be in vain, dont let us SLF suffer for nothing, get what you want to resolve this issue once and for all.

[OZOS]

Pacamack I think you have missed the point.

It's not a negotiated agreement that is in dispute. It is a change that the management want to impose that BALPA and the company are in discussions (if you can say Mr Walsh's skills extend to that) about.

They are merely trying to protect the terms and conditions they have.

[3Greens]

don't let chaps like sergeui wind us up. With 3 posts to date i reckon there is a better than even chance he is a BA manager trying to whip up some public aggression towards BA pilots. Come on then matey, which one are you?

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Once again, I would like to extend my total support to our BA colleagues. They are being faced with a direct attack on their future. My only question is, what were the 21% who voted against industrial action thinking of? If the BA pilots do not win this battle then it will be open season on pilots across Europe.

[pacamack]

BA Pilots want a change to Schedule K not BA management.
BA management want to leave Schedule K as it is.
BA management are not making, nor proposing to make, any changes to the T&C of BA pilots operating in and out of the UK under the Schedule K.

[overstress]

There are new members appearing with badly spelt passenger gripes.

I quote Danny's words from the bottom of every page on this forum:

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions.

[G-BPED]

don't let chaps like sergeui wind us up. With 3 posts to date i reckon there is a better than even chance he is a BA manager trying to whip up some public aggression towards BA pilots. Come on then matey, which one are you?


It was rather odd that "sergeui" logged out during the middle of his attack on BA pilots.

He logged off about 17:30, rather late working for a BA manager I would have thought :}.

Anyway guys, as many of you have said you are in this to maintain your terms & conditions.

Good luck to you all, ignore the trolls, they will be long gone and you will still be in your seats at the "front"

Regards,

G-BPED

[Hand Solo]

BA management are not making, nor proposing to make, any changes to the T&C of BA pilots operating in and out of the UK under the Schedule K.

My bold there.

[overstress]

I wonder which manager packamack is?!

[OZOS]

'Overstress' I'm thinking maybe you are right. Is 'Pacamack' Mr Walsh himself?????

Can any of you hard working BA pilots inform us of what 'Schedule K' actually is? And what exactly this has to do with your current T&C's/ Open Skies.

Thanks in advance.

[Hand Solo]

Schedule K is our Employment Security agreement. It's intent is to ensure that all BA aircraft over 100 seats are flown by BA pilot. It's scope is currently the UK. Now that BA can fly from the EU we want it to cover the EU too. The reason it ultimately affects our T&Cs is that if BA succeed in setting up an internal rival airline then they will allow mainline growth to wither, forcing BA pilots to compete with OS pilots for investment and flying opportunities. BA pilots will be forced to either reduce their T&Cs towards OS levels or accept career stagnation.

[OZOS]

Thanks Hand Solo.

Pacamack - is it not then the Management that want to change Schedule K here???

BA Pilots - still behind you 100%

[pacamack]

Ozos, no. As previously stated, the management want to leave Schedule K as it is currently written. The pilots want it changed to cover geographies other than the UK.

The prospect that BA will allow their UK centric operations to wither and die seem more than a little far fetched. I seem to recall some A380s an 787s being on order that will be needing a large number of BA drivers!

[Dysag]

I invite any BA potential striker to explain how a victory in this dispute would help the future travelling public. I'd like to understand.

[hellsbrink]

Dysag

I ain't a pilot but this is NOTHING to do with the "public benefit". This is about people's livelihoods.

Now, how would you feel if you had been working happily in your job for some time and then the company decided to start bringing in agency workers because they were cheaper? YOU are the one who suffers, as the people who get paid less tend to get the OT, etc, and if you don't comply with that you lose out.

I know it ain't a perfect analogy, but it is a valid one. After all, it wasn't all that long ago when I was one who was "out" at the proposals to take up to 70% of our (sparks) work away by using partially trained people to do most of the installation of the metalwork we put cables on/in. Our T&C's would have been thrown out the window as these people would have been doing the very job we had spent years training for, and since fewer electricians would therefore be needed we would HAVE to take a pay cut or not have a job. Is that sort of thing right?

Maybe you should ask your company to outsource your work, see how your standard of living survives.

(Sorry, again, for posting in the "flying" section, but I am behind the BA pilots 100% on this one)

[old,not bold]

What I'm trying to understand, along with Dysag's bewilderment, is why driving customers away in their thousands, FOR EVER, is going to help pilots preserve their conditions.

Have your rows with the dreadful, incompetent BA management, by all means. You are probably in the right. Good luck.

But when you've won, and BA is an even bigger basket case than it is now, look up the expression "Pyrrhic Victory."

You might then wonder whether using your customers as a weapon was such a bright idea, when they've all disappeared. They don't care for being treated like that.

Mind you, this is a wasted post if it's true that a strike has been called off!

[Hand Solo]

So to summarise old, not bolds strategy, there's no point fighting anything as you'll always lose. You must have sore knees from living life on them.

[Human Factor]

I seem to recall some A380s an 787s being on order that will be needing a large number of BA drivers!

Likewise.

There will be another tranche of orders in eighteen months or so. Can you guarantee they will need a large number of BA drivers for those?

We can't. Hence the dispute. ;)

[pacamack]

Human Factor if they fly in and out of the UK then Schedule K will guarantee that they will need a large number of BA drivers.

[overstress]

if they fly in and out of the UK

That, packamack, is a very big if. I assume you are familiar with QANTAS/Jetstar?

But when you've won, and BA is an even bigger basket case than it is now, look up the expression "Pyrrhic Victory."

No need to patronise, old not bold, some of us BA types went to school once! We are aware of what we are doing. It is management who will be enjoying the fruits of a Pyrrhic Victory.

Dysag: Ask yourself would the 'future travelling public' prefer to have their aircraft flown by the lowest bidder?

[pacamack]

As I understand it OS are offering a market competitive package, it is just lower than that offered by BA mainline to its pilots. I think it's a little much to start making the OS candidates look like cheap labour!

[Hand Solo]

Remind me of the starting pay for FOs at Open Skies and the expected annual flying hours. Did we mention their right to change your home base at their leisure? What about the cost of positioning to and from the allocated EU base of choice of this UK registered airline?

[overstress]

As I understand it OS are offering a market competitive package

I expect that you understand it quite well, so do the BA pilots, who consider that you (I assume you are BA mgt or pseudo-mgt) are attempting a double-breasted airline operation by stealth.

Why not adopt the United/Ted model and include some of your most loyal workforce at the planning stage?

[pacamack]

Why do I have to be BA management to disagree with your position?

[M.Mouse]

But when you've won, and BA is an even bigger basket case than it is now.........

You are right BA is a basket case, been losing money for years. Hopeless.

[Hand Solo]

pacamack - you don't have to be BA management, however you do use the same slippery arguments they do and you start from the identical standpoint that management are fundamentally trustworthy, would never break an agreement and there really isn't anything to worry about. Perhaps you aren't management, but it does seem a strange coincidence that you share their view of themselves.

[Vino Collapso]

If the OS T & C are crap, underpaid and overworked then pilots will not apply for the jobs.

If the jobs are filled then the pilot market can stand these T & C and those who currently work on better conditions are in a priviliged position.

Straight commercial drive will eventually force everyones T & C down to a common level until another operator is brave enough to break the circle and up the stakes by offering a better set of conditions.

Pilots then migrate to the company with the better T & C.

It has been happening in industry for ever. Nothing new.

Trying to stop it happening is like standing in the middle of M25 with your hand up trying to stop the traffic.

[Hand Solo]

Of course the major flaw in that argument is that pilots tend to be bound by seniority systems across the industry which makes it extremely difficult to migrate to another operator unless you are prepared to commit to them for 10+ years.

[overstress]

vino collapso: perhaps a tad too much of the liquid named in your 'handle'?

The industry has plenty of examples where BALPA's desired outcome has taken place.

The effect of the commercial drive you refer to is to increase the number of aircraft hulls across the world beyond the point where management can recruit pilots to crew them.

[overstress]

Packamack: Why do I have to be BA management to disagree with your position?

You don't, but there are 60,000+ pilots across the world supporting us and a few BA managers masquerading as indignant pax on PPRuNe opposing us! :}

[BA FAIR MANAGER]

Overstress - It seems to be a dark and lonely place that you hail from my friend. I apologise if this seems derogatory, it is genuinely not my intent, but I really hope there is sunshine and laughter elsewhere in your life.

It's cut the c*ap time again - Airline's need Managers as much as they do all other disciplines. Not all Management teams are in the act of scre*ing their employees. Equally though - I would feel very sorry for ANY Manager, BA or otherwise, who would feel they needed to impersonate being a customer to attempt to seek reason and compassion from anyone on this forum.

More "no nonsense" facts coupled with sound and reasoned debate would be nice to see...

[overstress]

Thank you for your concern, BA FAIR MANAGER, but where I am the sun shines every day :) and I am not at all lonely, 86% of my colleagues have gone on record to express the same view as me.

Furthermore, I have the backing of tens of thousands of other pilots across the globe.

The "Chief Pilot" of this forum has exposed BA MANAGERS making multiple postings using different personae - I would suggest that for an individual to descend to those depths, it is in fact they who are lonely.

You like "no nonsense" facts: in that case I refer again to the example of United/Ted. In that company, they believe in consultation of their key employees. You could do well to recommend the same approach to your colleagues.

PS: why do people use the phrase "my friend" when it's obvious they're nothing of the kind?

[Pontius]

Airline's need Managers

I think, for once, we may have found the genuine article. Only a BA manager could punctuate and mis-use capital letters so badly. :rolleyes:

[Serguei]

Next time you fly on holiday (or perhaps in a few years time), why not go and look into the eyes of the pilots (many with children) at the controls who just realised that their terms and conditions had been eroded by about 30%.

If the condition changed sue the employer (if they have broken the contract) or find another job (if the contract is not broken). This is what those people do who don't have holidaymakers to hold hostage.

If one can't find a job with the conditions one wants, may be this is exactly how much one is worth and the pay is fair? If the employer was worries that he can't find anybody to fill the position the conditions would improve instead of been eroded.

[overstress]

No, Serguei, if the conditions change, re-negotiate the agreement.

Don't dictate to us, it makes you sound like my employer! :rolleyes:

[Swedish Steve]

I have been following this thread with interest because I work for BA Engineering and would like BA to keep flying, there is an outside chance of a bonus this year!

I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?

[lordsummerisle]

"Of course the major flaw in that argument is that pilots tend to be bound by seniority systems across the industry which makes it extremely difficult to migrate to another operator unless you are prepared to commit to them for 10+ years."

Been reading this thread from the start, and understood that it wasn't about T's and C's, that is already agreed with Balpa This dispute is more about forcing BA to put Open Skies pilots onto the BA senority list from what i understand?

Take it from your quoted comment above Hand Solo that you think it is seniority lists that make it more difficult for pilots to move, so why fight to have more people on a seniority list?

[pacamack]

An excellent point. Surely seniority systems distort the market by making it more dificult for pilots to shop around for the best T&Cs. If carriers effectively have thier pilots "locked in" then where is the incentive for them to raise T&Cs. The very system you BA Pilots are fighting to protect must be depressing T&Cs across the industry?

[M.Mouse]

I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?

It is interesting why any pilot would like to be a manager. Generally our technical and training pilot managers are well respected. Others are master politicians climbing the greasy pole speaking and behaving as politicians do i.e. spouting the party line no matter what. The OpenLies propaganda blitz is a case in point.


Take it from your quoted comment above Hand Solo that you think it is seniority lists that make it more difficult for pilots to move, so why fight to have more people on a seniority list?

Like unilateral nuclear disarmament the odd company or two binning the seniority system doesn't work. For good or bad it is the system in use worldwide and has advantages as well as disadvantages.

[Hand Solo]

I have been following this thread with interest because I work for BA Engineering and would like BA to keep flying, there is an outside chance of a bonus this year!

I have one question. All you pilots are running down the BA Management. Yet when I look in the Flight Ops magazine all the management are called Captain. I assume this means they are pilots? What changes when a BA Captain becomes a BA Manager? Does he have to agree to be anti his mates from then on?

What makes you think they had any mates before they became managers? A lot of them have been dubious character for a long time! The reason most managers are Captains is that there is a 'jobs for the boys' agreement for the managers that allows very junior FOs to become managers out of seniority (for purely management purposes you understand) and also become qualified as trainers. A number of managers have hung onto their management positions for just as long as it takes to become senior enough to keep their command by normal means then booted the office job.

BTW the bonus went down the pan when our managers got caugt price fixing. A £350M fine, plus passenger compensation, plus the next fine for fixing cargo prices will make a big dent in that 11.5% margin!

[Right Engine]

To any passengers/media wishing to understand seniority.
Seniority was not conjured up by protectionist unions. It was devised by the legacy carriers during times of rapid expansion, when they discovered that many of the pilots were leaving to fly for other carriers.

It has distinct advantages regarding safety. Whistle-blowers are encouraged in our profession. Knowing that 'opportunity for promotion' will not be denied on the basis of that whistle blowing, forms the foundation to the healthy safety culture within the legacy carriers pilot communities. We are not frightened to talk about any misgivings within the operation.

Ask any CAA safety officer his opinions about Air Safety Reports, particularly with reference to the number received from non-seniority listed airlines!

Market forces that are suppressed by 'seniority lists' don't help the cause of pilots should they wish to leave to a higher paid job, but unless multi-lateral abolition of seniority lists occurs Worldwide on the same day, seniority lists will always give the most advantage to a) Airline Safety and b) Pilot retention.

Seniority lists mean fairness, safety and transparency towards promotion. Do you want your Captain to be the best brown-noser at the base or a person who has your safety interests at heart?

Finally, there is some meritocracy in the legacy airlines, not everyone PASSES a command course! Consequently the most skilled/experienced pilots are in charge. Everyone gets their turn, but not on the basis of sycophancy or more bluntly 'failure to blow whistle'.

[pacamack]

The argument that I have seen numerous times on this forum is that failure of OS to adopt a seniority system will cause a widespead colapse in pilot T&Cs. Market mechanisms would indicate that this would not be the case.

BALPA have catecorically stated that this issue

"is not about money; and it is not about safety (whatever today’s Times headline writers might think)"

So if a move towards a more free and open market would have a possitive effect on T&Cs and BALPA are not fighting on a safety agenda, what is the strike all about?

[peterowensfanclub]

I have just turned down another solicutaion for interview. This time by phone. The reasons are but not limited to:

Many applicants for OS are transient types, normally found paying ryr for a job or hoping from one company to another unable to settle. I have seen the profile of some and know a couple more.

They see it for what it is, a back door to BA. If they havent got one they want a meritocracy command and will do WHATEVER it takes to get it. BA see them for what they are, cheap,transient and maleable. Most had colourful backgrounds (read perishing agitators for agitations sake) at other companies and more jobs in the last few years than Peter Mandelson.
In short they are the pain in the arse oppurtunistic , troublesome, and usually far less talented than they think diaspora of the industry. Perfect fodder for the BA managers crafty intent. Although Sops are anathema to these types.. Should be fun if it ever gets off the ground.
This amongst many other reasons gets the ba pilots my full support.
Its a line in the sand for the ulcers we have as management in this industry. Apart from our peter of course

[Right Engine]

Good question, Pacamack, although the answer has been repeated often in the previous postings.

"The argument that I have seen numerous times on this forum is that failure of OS to adopt a seniority system will cause a widespead colapse in pilot T&Cs. Market mechanisms would indicate that this would not be the case."

You are failing to recognise the distinction between a BA pilot who works for OpenSkies and a BA pilot who doesn't. BALPA are welcoming the expansion. We accept the lower starter rates. We accept the scheduling agreement (Frightening thought it is!). We are also aware that by isolating the community from BA UK pilots, we are creating a competing internal market. As one of our esteemed reps said "It'll become a race to the bottom with pay, as each community is played off against each other". We would all enjoy the opportunity for market forces were it not for the fact that the 'market' is an internal one!



BALPA have catecorically stated that this issue

"is not about money; and it is not about safety (whatever today’s Times headline writers might think)"

So if a move towards a more free and open market would have a possitive effect on T&Cs and BALPA are not fighting on a safety agenda, what is the strike all about?

Possitive (sic) effects on T's and C's as I and many others have stated, is found when the job market allows for free movement of employees. Having explained the rationale behind seniority lists and the internal competing 'markets' of Open Skies versus BA mainline why do you not grasp the contradictions? We have a seniority system. It has many advantages (see previous post). Its' disadvantages are being used against us on this issue.

'Not fighting on the safety agenda'.

Personal opinion only. BALPA do not wish to link this issue to safety because they represent the interests of ALL UK pilots. Read the T's and C's of Open Skies and ask yourself the following.

How tired would you be if you did 14 transatlantic flights per month and all positioning to be done on days off at the expense of the pilot? Every month. For 5 years? Jetlag is a serious issue in all pilots lives. The OS scheduling agreement seems to ignore this.

How stable a home life could one get if Open Skies have the right to change your base once a year? That the base change was again at the expense of the employee with no help from the company? Are you looking for pilots with stable home lives and happy families or do you want pilots who are single journeymen with no place to call home (Unless 6 days a month counts as home!)

If those issues affect safety, it is not BALPA's responsibility to report them. It is for journalists and the general public to appreciate when booking their ticket.

[pacamack]

Isn't it the CAA's role to police safety. Do they not have to perform a thorough evaluation of the OS operation before they will issue an AOC. As I understand it this will include an assessment of proposed rostering and schedules.

[Right Engine]

Pacamack.

I have read your posts that seem to suggest that you have

a) An above average awareness of the industry
b) A curious annoyance at BA pilots
c) A questioning nature.

You also have a forum name that suggest you are an 'independant traveller'.

You couldn't be the travel writer, Simon Calder by any chance? He is known for his excellent taste in Kagools, blinkered opinions of pilots and somewhat contradictory opinions on global warming and transcontinental travel.

If it is you Simon, I'm still working my 18 hour week with the other 42 hours remaining unpaid!

Pass the me the Wensledale grommit!

[Fake Sealion]

The previous post from Right Engine is rather like an episode of "WHATS MY LINE":bored:
For those old enough to recall it:ok:

Before anyone asks - yes I am a GENUINE BA long haul ticket holder - Easter dates!!

Here hoping for a fair settlement soon:ok:

[Right Engine]

Anyway, Simon/Pacamack. Back to your questions.

The CAA will do an audit of Open Skies (Although I look forward to how 'Glovin Robber' deals with the French CAA when they wish to see his particulars!).

But I did not bring the CAA into the discussion on the basis of Open Skies scheduling, did I?

I told you to "ask how many Air Safety Reports the CAA receive from non-seniority based airlines". That, Pacamack, is an entirely different strand to this thread which came about because I was explaining the history and importance of seniority lists.

....And, my little word mangler; I would bet my house that the CAAs' response would be, "We receive a disproportionately higher number of reports from BA compared to (say) Ryanair". When using the word disproportionate, I mean that if you divided the number of reports received by the number of flights. Why do you think that? (By the way, Simon that is another question. A question is something you respond to. Give it a go, it enables those who you debate with the opportunity to reach measured conclusions and gives other readers the enthusiasm to follow0

[pacamack]

Actualy Right Engine, my comments about the CAA were relating to your statement:

"How tired would you be if you did 7 transatlantic flights per month and all positioning to be done on days off at the expense of the pilot? Every month. For 5 years? Jetlag is a serious issue in all pilots lives. The OS scheduling agreement seems to ignore this.


Yes I am Simon Calder, I shot JFK and Elvis is alive and well in my basement?!!! :rolleyes:

[lordsummerisle]

Right Engine,

Sorry to intrude, but if this is indeed the case, and not just supposition on your part..

""We receive a disproportionately higher number of reports from BA compared to (say) Ryanair".

Then it could be read that possibly Ryanair are safer than BA? Not suggesting that is the case, but you know the old saying "lies, damned lies and statistics"

[Right Engine]

Summerisle,

It might be worth reading the AAIB reports that Ryanair have starred in in the last few years to answer that question.

Pacamack,

The scheduling 'agreement' in its sparcity appears to be just legal, but it places the emphasis on positioning to home base on the shoulders of the pilot, which in conjunction with the annual base review makes it difficult to make allowances for fatigue, should one have the temerity to live away from the home base. I read the document as a fundamental denial of any homelife. I would hope that any overseeing Aviation Authority that signs off their AOC, whether it is British, French or US appreciates that.

Forgive me for missing your train of thought and give my regards to Elvis.

[Serguei]

Ok Seguei,

Your employer intends to attack your terms and conditions by some underhand and duplicitous method so do you:

a. Do nothing and have your family's future lifestyle further eroded.

b. Fight back to maintain the status quo (which isn't as good as you might think in the first place).

I will look for a different job.
If my employer thinks that other people can do my job for less money good luck to him.

Would you like to explain to my children why they haven't had a holiday in 3 years either?

You are either in a wrong job or you have to change your priorities and start spending less in a pub :).

[M.Mouse]

I presume pacamack and serguei are not stupid but both continually seem to ignore the explanations and endlessly repeat the same simplistic observations.

Angry posts from those standing to be inconvenienced at personal cost I can understand and sympathise with but the aforementioned puzzle me.

[Tandemrotor]

How bizarre that this thread is attracting so many posters 'apparently' new to pprune, and who post on no other subjects!!!

Anyone who doesn't understand why this is happening, has got to be just as cretinous as those to whom I refer! :rolleyes:

I urge my colleagues to leave this portion of cyberspace to others, until this dispute is resolved to our satisfaction.

peterowensfanclub:

Thank you for your support, and for your valuable insight into the true nature of this 'BA' venture!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Now, how would you feel if you had been working happily in your job for some time and then the company decided to start bringing in agency workers because they were cheaper?
This is ordinary everyday life for most people and has been for years.

I ask again, what's magically special about BA pilots that they alone should be immune from it?

[pacamack]

Once again because I choose to argue against your points I am described as cretinous. I hope your union reps are a little more eloquent when they go to conciliation.

[Tandemrotor]

That's not why I think you are a 'cretin'!

Read the first line of my post again.

If the cap fits; wear it!

[GS-Alpha]

Once again because I choose to argue against your points I am described as cretinous.

Actually it is because you keep repeating the same old arguments without listening to the replies. You are a wind up merchant, cretinous or not!

The pilots will either win this argument, or they will not. Your input however, is irrelevant.

[pacamack]

I make no apologies for repeating the same old arguments, after all I'm only following the example set by the BA Pilots on this forum.

[Serguei]

I presume pacamack and serguei are not stupid but both continually seem to ignore the explanations and endlessly repeat the same simplistic observations.

I worked hard to earn my money. I paid my money for the service. This is the money pilot's salary is paid from. I have done my bit. Now I expect BA and the BA employees to do their bit. I don't see why I should be a hostage in somebody's else internal fight for money. I don't see why I should care about "explanations" of why I have been robbed.

[Serguei]

By all means, hand in your cards if you don't like the corporation you are working for (But I guess you wouldn't do that if it was to take a voluntary reduction in pay of 50% AND a demotion).

If one is worth what one is been paid, one would not have a problem to find a job with a similar pay elsewhere. There are other companies that need pilots too, there are other professions. If the conditions in BA were worse then in other companies, BA would simply start loosing pilots and there would be no reason for a strike.

Taking into account the potential 'casualties' at stake here and knowing the small cost that a back-down would result in, why do you feel the pilots are at fault here?

They have made a decision to use me as a hostage.

[gatbusdriver]

Dear Serguei

With the greatest of respect, you are talking out of your arse. Your last post quite clearly prooves that.

Right Engine

You are far too patient (are you a trainer?)

[dazdaz]

Serguei, what a drama queen you are. I think the pilots are too much gentlemen/ladies to tell you where to stick your ticket. I'm not a pilot but I'm 100% behind these guys and gals.

Daz

[tristar500]

Well guys and gals...

Slightly different angle to this mess...

This time last year, BA were gleefully telling the UK out-stations that they were replacing their staff with a handling agent. In effect an OS on the ground. Cheaper, 'efficient' and a lower costbase... and as far as the passenger was concerned, business as usual...

Minimum wage, no benefits and basically no experienced staff apart from the few BA staff members that moved over...

This philosophy is now 'creeping' in elsewhere in BA, albeit on a different scale and at a different pace... Over time, who knows what will happen.

No one jumped up and down for the regions and look at the mess they are in now or are they :ugh:

[Right Engine]

Tristar500,

It is sad news to hear of the gradual hand over to third party handlers. It's not something we, the pilots, were happy with. On most occasions the service has deteriorated. Such cost cuts tend to bite us on the a**e at a later date when these third parties have a monopoly/duopoly at the airport in question. Consequently BA are put in a position to pay up or get no service at all because often the duopoly that exists enters a 'cosy' arrangement that is reliable on gentlemens agreements not to undercut each other.

If the industry was not so tied up with short term business goals, that feather the nests of a few entitled senior managers we wouldn't end up with the situation you desribe.

Serguie,

For reasons of differing intellect I'm not capable of continuing this debate with you. It reminds me too much of a Catherine Tate sketch.

Lo(o)sing the plot,

Right Engine

[M.Mouse]

This is ordinary everyday life for most people and has been for years.

I ask again, what's magically special about BA pilots that they alone should be immune from it?

Well for a start Gertrude we are not defeatist. Your post seems to imply we should be. If you had the power to stop yourself being undermined are you saying you would say that's OK, it is happening elsewhere so I will accept the stuffing my employer plans for me?

[PC767]

Now I'm not a BA pilot, I'm BA cabin crew. I support BALPA's stance and hope my own union follows. In the meantime here is an interesting article regarding Qantas/Jetstar and importantly the future if we are not careful.

Qantas plans two-tier workforce

February 23, 2008

QANTAS has signalled plans to establish a two-tiered workforce that will see some full-time employees hired on less pay and lower conditions than existing staff.

After outlining its intention this week to slash a further $1.5 billion in annual costs by mid-2010, Qantas praised as "groundbreaking" its new five-year enterprise agreement with the long-haul flight attendants union.

The agreement reached last November will see new cabin crew work 30 per cent more hours on 25 per cent less pay than Qantas's existing long-haul flight attendants. It is believed the deal will save Qantas at least $40 million a year in labour costs.

Some other union bosses are dismayed that the Flight Attendants Association of Australia signed the deal. But the union has argued that it had no choice, given Qantas's plans to hire cut-rate staff via a subsidiary company whether it struck a deal with the union or not.

The deal represents the first move by Qantas to seek the increased efficiencies and lower wages that it already has achieved from its low-cost offshoot, Jetstar

Now Qantas is stepping up its message that it wants other unions to follow the example. There are suspicions that Qantas now has its second largest union, the Transport Workers Union, in its sights. The TWU, which is due to start EBA talks, did not return calls.

In a media release yesterday, Qantas trumpeted its plans - already signalled last year - to hire 2000 new cabin crew by the end of 2010.

"The competitive terms and conditions negotiated under the EBA have enabled us to create these new positions," said the airline's chief executive, Geoff Dixon.

The media release follows the message by Mr Dixon at the company's profit results briefing on Thursday that the flight attendants' agreement would "need to be the type of deal we have as we go forward with[other] unions".

"All the enterprise bargaining agreements that we're concluding have to be aimed at making sure that we're competitive, both domestically and internationally, with other airlines," he said.

"And have to be able to ensure that we can give adequate returns to our shareholders, while making quite massive investments in product and in aircraft."

The assistant secretary of the Australian Services Union, Linda White, said Qantas management needed to be aware that it would not foster any loyalty among its staff if it attempted to erode conditions, especially in a tight labour market. "If they p*ss off customers, they don't stay around and it's the same for the Australian workforce," she said.

Ms White said the move would also have an impact on Qantas's level of service.

The general manager for airlines, John Borghetti, denied Qantas was seeking to create a "two-class" workforce.

"Here is a perfect example of the company and union working together for the benefit of Qantas employees and shareholders enabling the company to grow," he said

[overstress]

I recognise the wind-up merchants for what they are, and am tempted to follow Tandemrotor's advice. There isn't anything more to be said until the results of the conciliation meetings are known.

I'll leave the likes of BA FAIR MANAGER etc to order their e-baguettes :hmm:

[BarbiesBoyfriend]

Tristar 500

Re the 'outsourcing' of BA ground services.

I work at EDI.

BA ground handling /dispatch / bag handling etc was **** when I started there in 1999.

I'm still (unfortunately) there now and it's still ****.

I may as well ad that the SAME people are still doing 'the job' but now they work for Aviance.

Meantimes, at GLA, the guys and gals plug away as usual- do a good job- and seem not to mind whose badge they wear.

Is their a lesson there? :rolleyes: