ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January

[HighLow]

News broke at 21:10 from RTE stating that Dublin Air Traffic controllers will not be at their posts tonight from 10.30pm to 11.30pm, therefore halting any air traffic movements into or out of Dublin.

No NOTICE has been given with regard strike action,
leaving many of my colleagues stranded across Europe with ATC Slot Restrictions, many delayed upto 2 hours, until controllers decide to come back to work.

I understand peoples right to take action if they feel hard done by, however to announce this unofficial action within such short notice, it does not really help the controllers in growing sympathy for their cause. Especially from the pilots and passengers that they have disrupted!

A MESSAGE TO DUBLIN CONTROLLERS:
You all do a good job considering the shoddy/outdated equipment made available to you by your employer. Take a look at the airport facillities, lights broken, 25 mins to introduce LVPs jaysus need I go on.... BUT to screw so many people without giving us some notice, JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH


HighLow

[Georgey]

Leave them to it, you are not in their situation so shouldn`t slag them off.
I`ll put up with a poxy slot delay if its going to help support the guys and their future.
You never know when you might need their support.

[HighLow]

Great Site, but some words of caution to anybody listening to Dublin ATC on the WEB

"YOUR SPEAKERS ARE NOT BROKEN!"
I repeat, "YOUR SPEAKERS ARE NOT BROKEN!"

The light on the control tower is BRIGHT RED,
but nobody is HOME!!


:ugh:

HighLow

and in response to the last post, i ain't slaggin anyone off!!
merely pointing out STRIKE ACTION with NO notice whatsoever is just not the way to solve any problems.

[Jerricho]

Is it "strike" action, or the fact that the controllers aren't working overtime due to staffing situation (been discussed here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=308961))

[ACARS]

The sole RYR pilot around dublin airspace has the freedom of the skys tonight. Just been told he can decend to what ever level he wants (well actually not below 6000')

[HighLow]

Fair Play to the controllers!!

at least they are informing HOLDING aircraft of EAT to shoot the approach at Dublin.

The poor Ryanair pilot, wonder if 320 knots to the marker would be allowed tonight (aww the good old days)



:)
HIGH LOW

[RVR27/09]

Lvps take 25 mins :mad: who the heck is responsible for implementing them in DUB HighLow ?
:ugh:

[HighLow]

Want to make it clear, i am not posting comments in any way that take away from the work the controllers are doing.

Not recruiting any new controllers for the guts on 6 years, now this situation was always going to arise.

However as a pilot in DUBLIN, yes there are many problems

25 Mins to introduce LVPs is not uncommon, pilots stuck up in the hold at ROCKA or TULSO , unable to shoot CATIII until somebody on the ground gets their act together.

No instantaneous weather information, (only international Airport on the planet unable to give that kind of information)

The new MIKE Taxiway lights (parallel to HOTEL) cannot he shut off, if done so, it would turn off the every single taxiway light on the airport.

anyways this post was to point out the frustration of little notice of industrial action, however maybe its about time, the controllers in dublin stood upto the THIRD WORLD conditions they find themselves in,

Best of Luck to them


and a note to the DUBLIN AIRPORT AUTHORITY, take a spin over to the UK and see how a REAL airport operates!!

To silence the critics, I am Irish and think its disgusting the way the international airport of my home city is being operated!!!

HIGH LOW

[HighLow]

EIDW AERODROME CONTROL TOWER (TWR) CLOSED
REF AIP IRELAND EIDW AD 2.18
FLIGHT LEVEL FROM SFC TO UNL
VALID FROM 2230 25-JAN-2008 TO 2335 25-JAN-2008: (A0131/08)


To any flight crew unaware of this closure!!! (READ ABOVE!)
And I retract the statement that this closure was not announced!

Best of luck to the controllers with their ongoing dispute!!!


HIGHLOW

[badback]

Contrary to opinion stated above there was no strike action, there was a staff shortage due to sickness and the tower was left understaffed as a result.

The action taken was to ensure a safe air traffic control service could be provided at all times.

As for any delay in dissemination of the delays expected, I suggest you look further up the chain of command than at the ordinary ATCO.

[RVR27/09]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0125/airport.html :confused:

[beaver liquor]

EIDW ACC staffing regulation on this afternoon 1520-1740

[ock1f]

When is declining OPTIONAL overtime and call-ins on your days off industrial action( official or unofficial)???????????
If you get a call asking would you mind or like to come in for more money (and punishment) after you have completed a quite intense 6 duties over 5 days and you say no (because its optional) why is that industrial action? It just so happens that so many people have had enough of the place at the end of their normal set of duties the last thing they want is to go back in.

On the other subjects high and low raised i suggest he/she starts a thread giving out about the DAA for there the issues lie with regards taxi lights and lvps.

Yours as ever
OCK1f

[54north15west]

Again to clarify...overtime in the IAA centres is optional......people have just gotten sick:yuk: of being called on their rest days to go into work and with leave been unabled :=and with no end of the sitiuation in sight for at least 2 years :\ and .....everyone no matter what job they do has a right to time off....it is not up to the atcos to ensure the centres have enuf staff...that is the IAA's..any complaints about delays please refer to
Irish Aviation Authority, Aviation House, Hawkins St, Dublin 2, Ireland. Telephone:, 00 353 1 671 8655.
Fax:, 00 353 1 679 2935.
Email:, info@iaa. .

They may listen to YOU cos they sure as **** havent listened to their atco's who have told them for years that they didnt have enuf staff:*

[M609]

They may listen to YOU cos they sure as **** havent listened to their atco's who have told them for years that they didnt have enuf staff

Quite common that......

Sad to see this, same type of stuff that we have seen here in Norway in the last 4 years. Management f**** up the recruitment and estimated staffing needs, and the controllers at the sharp end get the kicking from customers and media alike when planes stop flying. (Provider basically chastises their workers for wanting NOT to work 4 weekends in a row etc etc....... :uhoh: )

It's a bit better here now, hope you have a strong union over there, it saved us! :ok:

[VillWill]

ock1f and 54north15west spot on with your posts, everyone is entitled to their days off and we have seen more strike action from every other corner of Irish Aviation over a lot less than insufficent staff. You only have to ask the guys and girls in EI to change their lunch times and their out with the picket boards!

I wonder if HighLow would rather our controllers become over-tired, and slightly incompetent due to working conditions than having to spend 2 hrs on a slot delay.

[The Jolly Roger]

High Low...I see your points...however to clarify, there is no industrial action. As you can see, its staff shortages that are causing the problems both in Dublin and in Shannon. The IAA haven't recruited any controllers in past number of years and now they seem to think that just because ATCO's are s$%t sick of the place after 5 long days work they can change our roster to suit their staffing problems and blame us for not coming in on our days off to fill in for blank spaces on the shoddy rosters that are in place already. This is supposed to make us look bad...come on....its IAA micromanagement that look bad here. The IAA should be ashamed of themselves for making the controllers look bad for closing Dublin Airport for a couple of hours. They are to blame for all of this...not the ATCO's....Its about time the pilots and paying passengers are made aware of this....

[rocky01]

I'm sitting here wondering what's really going on out there?

I give benefit of the doubt to the hard working ATCOs, but what are the union/management/IAA playing at?

Behind this, rumours suggest that the union won't allow any direct entries, so they can relocate some of their buddies from EINN to EIDW first??? This true?

There are several CVs lying on IAA desks for some months now, so it's not as if there is no interest out there.

Waiting patiently....(Any real info, please PM me)

Sylvester
"own nav is best"

[alwaysmovin]

I don't know whats going on but my support lies soley with the controllers. the IAA are continually issuing press releases saying they are not short staffed...... if rumours rom shannon are true why then do they allow controllers to work a day shift in the training school as instructor and then allow these same controllers to come in the same evening to do a night shift (call in on overtime) which lasts 9.5 hours........everyone knows its not safe...and any moron would be able to see that if this is the only way you can get enough controllers on a night shift that you have a staffing problem....and a safety problem

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

.. are you serious dude?? ...a day training then in for live traffic over night?
.
**** .... if that is true god help ya's ... are you affiliated with the international federation?

Surely even the Irish have laws against that :ugh:

Withdraw O/T lads and lasses :ok:

If it is any consolation, the same sort of system breakdown is occuring in Oz (and it seems many other countries) at the mo'

Best of luck :ok:

[EastCoaster]

Scurvy, there is a law against it; it's an EU law called the Working Time Directive, covering general employment rights and restrictions. Unfortunately they can get around it as the staff are required to keep a transport timetable going!

Reference the problems in Oz, is it as bad as I've heard? Did the ASA Global Recruitment Drive not sort the issues out? Or is it too soon to say?

[PPRuNe Radar]

Thread title amended as no strike ever took place. :ok:

[irishatco]

thanks for changing the title of this. however, with fridays deadline for a company plan to resolve this issue looming fast, it may be a good idea to hold the old thread title on hot standby

[goodworker]

The Working Time Act is all well and good but it does not preclude against any individual coming in on overtime voluntarily. As we've seen it is necessary for controllers to work overtime in order for full service to continue.

In other words, the Irish ATC service depends on controllers working over their rostered hours. But it seems some would prefer this over-worked controller than no controller at all. You make your decision and you take your chances.

However, I'm not taking that chance. I have a tangible duty of care to all souls on board.

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

G'day Eastcoaster
.
Thats all understood, but surely even the IAA would not challenge individuals who refuse to work due fatigue etc.

As goodworker says, that 'duty of care' is multisided i.e. yes a resonable duty to the travelling public, part of that duty is to ensure that the ATC's are not endangering themselves AND the travelling public by operating fatigued and pissed off, by doing so providing a 'false sense of security' to the operating crews and colleagues .. if you get my drift!

Re: OZ .. the situation is degenerating by the day, resignations, retirements, fatigue, morale ..... all in all, a fast track to hell in a handbag I'm afraid :(

The O/S recruiting effort IMHO is tantamount to throwing a handful of mud at a burst dam :ugh:

Good luck with it all Lads and Lasses

[Quokka]

Scurvy... laughed at the analogy... then cried at the reality.

[Platinum206]

Face-to-face negotiations between air traffic controllers and the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) are underway in Dublin this afternoon in a bid to end their current dispute.


http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0130/breaking50.htm


Hopefully it can be resolved ASAP

[goblin airways]

Hi all.

Just an atco who is interested in moving to Ireland. Okay, this thread is not the best advert for the working conditions, but was just wondering if there is any point to an external application at the moment? I always thought the union was preventing external applicants (I am based in Uk ay the moment.)
Does anyone know if there is any point to adding my cv to the pile? If so, is it best to contact the IAA directly? (Although they probably have other issues to deal with at the moment!)
Ta muchly,

[The Jolly Roger]

Hi Goblin,

Well your first port of call should be the IAA. They will, hopefully, be recruiting controllers in the near future. Issues bein sorted out at present. Send in your CV and wait for the reply. One of the reasons that they are stalling on taking direct entries at the moment has got to do with the fact that they, bein the management, won't sort out existing controllers problems....dragging their heals more like!! In a nutshell, we've given a lot and to date, have received very very very little in return. Best of luck and keep your options open.

[ock1f]

If Highlow is still concerned about Irish ATC i respectfully point out that NOW would be a good time for him/her to check the Notams and pay special notice to both Dublin and Shannon airports with regards this evening and tomorrow morning and to note the opening and closing times of said airports..just so there are no sudden suprises this time for the pilots. :rolleyes:

yours as ever

OCK1F

[goodworker]

Highlow may also like to check out the IAA's latest press relaease. Bad, bad boys for having the cheek to actually rest on rest days, and not overwork on overtime. Resting on days off is now deemed to be 'wildcat action'.

[kraggy]

This is a refusal to do overtime as I understand it, as opposed to strike action.

However, according to the IAA statment on their website:

Air traffic controllers have committed under successive national agreements to continued adaptation and flexibility. The overtime arrangement that the controllers are refusing to operate is, and has been for many years, part of that flexibility and was not raised by their union as part of its claim during any stage of the Labour Court process. This only emerged as an issue after the Labour Court Recommendation

So, has there been an unwritten rule as such that controllers should do whatever overtime that was required in the past? Or an official, stated agreement?

If it's the former, then the IAA haven't a leg to stand on.

[Irishguy]

Just seen the 9pm news on Irish tv tonight 6th Feb. Shannon airport was shut by lack of tower staff tonight and nothing else. There was only 1 controller in the tower from 7pm until 9pm and the controller would have broken every law in the book by operating the tower by themselves for the 2 hour period. I believe Dublin has the same problem tonight as Shannon and will shut for a few hours during the night time. Again this event shows up the serious lack of staffing in the IAA that the management claim does not exist and that the current system is dependant upon "Call-Ins"/Overtime.

It is time Impact came out with it's own press release and put and end to the slander issued by the IAA management before Joe Public gets the wrong end of the stick.

[irishatco]

From the IAA website.
From the school of how to get the ATCO's back on side and not piss anyone off


Date: February 06 2008
Headline: Renewed Unofficial Disruptive Action by Air Traffic Controllers

Following intense negotiations under the auspices of the Labour Relations Commission over the last two weeks and despite significant progress the Irish Aviation Authority regrets to advise that there is a further incident of unofficial action by Air Traffic Controllers this time at Shannon Airport. As a result no air traffic control services will be available at Shannon Airport between 7pm and 9pm this evening. This will directly impact on 11 flights. We expect normal services to resume at 9pm. The Authority regrets any inconvenience caused to airlines and the travelling public arising from this unofficial action by controllers.
This is a renewal of the unofficial action that caused 32 flights to be delayed at Dublin Airport on the 25th January. This is the third time in little over two weeks that IMPACT has given an assurance that their members would return to normal working and it is also the third time that Air Traffic Controllers have reneged on this commitment. Safety is the Authority’s highest priority and we will ensure that aircraft and passenger safety is not jeopardised by any unofficial disruption by Air Traffic Controllers.
This unofficial action is being reintroduced notwithstanding an agreement reached between the Irish Aviation Authority and the Air Traffic Controllers Union, IMPACT, at the Labour Relations Commission, involving a process and time schedule to deal with the controllers’ grievances. This process and time schedule is due to continue until Friday, the 8th February. The controllers’ unofficial action is in contravention of the national agreement T-2016, our Continuity of Service Agreement and national industrial relations procedures.
Air Traffic Controllers have benefited from all four phases of T-2016 and in addition to the 10% paid under that agreement have also, through a Labour Court process, involving change over and above “normal ongoing change”, secured a Labour Court Recommendation of an additional 5% pay increase backdated to 1 January 2006 to cover all change up to the end of 2008. That means that Air Traffic Controllers are due to benefit by a premium of 50% over and above all other workers who are party to T-2016. Yet they are engaging in further unofficial action to secure even higher pay increases. This is totally unacceptable.
No staffing issues arose prior to the announcement of the Labour Court award, even during busy months of July/August and Christmas, where maximum staff would be on leave. The current unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers in order to ensure that the Authority is short of staff at key periods and for safety reasons the Authority has to restrict traffic or reduce services.
Air traffic controllers have committed under successive national agreements to continued adaptation and flexibility. The overtime arrangement that the controllers are refusing to operate is, and has been for many years, part of that flexibility and was not raised by their union as part of its claim during any stage of the Labour Court process. This only emerged as an issue after the Labour Court Recommendation.
The Authority operates a policy of “Crewing to Workload”. This simply means we allocate greater numbers of staff for busy periods and lesser staff numbers when traffic levels are low. The Authority will continue to maintain sufficient staff numbers to match the controller workloads. A class of 36 student air traffic controllers will commence in March with more starting in early 2009. The last group of controllers graduated in November 2007.
The Authority has spent nearly €200 million since 2000 in providing Ireland with one of the most modern Air Traffic Control Systems with numerous safety features giving our controllers one of the most advanced systems to work with and to handle increased traffic levels.
Ireland has, for the last 21 years, a system of Social Partnership which is the envy of many other economies. This social partnership and successive National Agreements has served the country, business and above all air traffic controllers extremely well.
We operate sophisticated and well oiled industrial relations procedures in the Irish Aviation Authority and have in place, one of the first of its kind, a Continuity of Service Agreement, specifically designed to prevent the type of wildcat action being engaged in by Air Traffic Controllers. This agreement has been in place since 1996 and is reviewed and rolled-over every three years. It conforms to the 1992 Labour Relations Commission - Code of Practice for Dispute Procedures in Essential Services.
The Authority appeals to the controllers to desist from unofficial action which has the potential to cause great inconvenience to airlines and the travelling public and to adhere to the process agreed at the Labour Relations Commission.
ENDS
For further information contact;

Name removed to spare blushes:rolleyes:
Corporate Communications Manager
Irish Aviation Authority
Tel:


What a fantastic piece of propoganda. Frau Goebels excelling as usual.

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Keep up the good work, I can hardly wait for your next press release:ok:

[54north15west]

How does this
The current unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers in order to ensure that the Authority is short of staff at key periods and for safety reasons the Authority has to restrict traffic or reduce services.
equal to
The Authority operates a policy of “Crewing to Workload”. This simply means we allocate greater numbers of staff for busy periods and lesser staff numbers when traffic levels are low.

Ohh and since when is 7pm - 9pm the busy period in Irish airspace???:=

To my fellow Irish atcos....:D:D:D:D:D:D

[54north15west]

Air Traffic Controllers have benefited from all four phases of T-2016 and in addition to the 10% paid under that agreement have also, through a Labour Court process, involving change over and above “normal ongoing change”, secured a Labour Court Recommendation of an additional 5% pay increase backdated to 1 January 2006 to cover all change up to the end of 2008This is a very interesting difference in what we were told the 5% was for!!!!

[54north15west]

What's infinitely worse though is that the Union are keeping their mouths quiet. What the hell are these guys for? :ugh::ugh:

[alwaysmovin]

Good luck to all of the atcos .....you've put up with enough **** from the IAA . And as for that bull**** on the IAA website.......amazing how the iaa can write such **** about the people who deserve respect and actually do a worthwhile job within the company

[grr nav]

has anybody been actually asked to come in on overtime??

i haven't recieved one call asking me to do overtime in the past 3 weeks.

unofficial action:mad:, well it will be most definitly OFFICAL action on Friday when the ballot for strike action is sure to be overwhemingly voted for.

they can shove their 5% up their :mad:

[Baltasound]

Good luck guys. The industry I work in depends on "unofficial overtime" to keep the cogs and wheels turning, with manning agreements in regards to meal relief and the likes being slow to be adopted by various management sectors. So slow that it has resulted in "wildcat" action in one location on Monday lunchtime.......:D

[ock1f]

To gr nav- yes they have called plenty of people to do call ins and overtime but obviously people aren't interested. May be with the strength of feeling you have, they are afraid to call you :O (only joking!)

The unfortunate upshot of all this is that the company has now fully exhausted any goodwill that was there. This unfortunately has been developing over time and has reached its natural logical conclusion.

I know that both the iaa and the press monitor forums like this so i am choosing my words carefully from here on in.

The press releases by the iaa are a disgrace. It is however fully understandable that press releases like this will be issued by the very people who have caused the situation in order to detract attention from their own incompetence and to lay the blame at the feet of others. The two statemnets from the 6th and 7th of Feb have left a very sour taste in the mouths of controllers. Considering that there is still a process going on in the background between management and the union, these statements and press releases serve no purpose other than to inflame the situation and harden opinions.
If the iaa must issue press statements then surely the comms manager should earn her salary and reign in/counsel the management hotheads and advise them that the smart course is to say as little as possible to the press. Surely she has learnt her lesson with regards the press considering the last time where she stated "you do not have to be particulary bright to be an air traffic controller" live on national prime time radio for which she had to apologise atc staff .:ugh::ugh:

If any press are interested ,the real reason that dublin and shannon towers have been closing of late is that there is not enough staff to operate and crew the positions safely.
In the shannon example there was only one controller rostered (by management) in the tower between 7pm and 9pm. The minimum safe crew is 2. The only course of action open is to close the tower as it cannot be operated safely by one controller due workload and fatigue issues. The shortfall is purely due to shortage of staff. Yet of course the iaa blame the staff for their mismanagement.Go figure. How is that industrial action?

I also fail to see how declining OPTIONAL overtime and call ins because it doesnt suit you is wildcat industrial action????? It is the staff who are highlighting the fact that in ireland there is a shortfall of atc staff and this has safety consequences-thankfully nothing has happened yet.

The IAA is a very financially well off company. It has turnover of 134 million, assets of 178 million and profits of 13 to 16 million euro every year. This is achieved while being the cheapest ATC service provider in europe. The IAA charges airlines roughly 25 to 30% of what NATS in the UK charges. It has neglible borrowings and one of the newest ( note i didn't say best!) ATC systems in europe.Don't get me wrong-being financially viable is something to be proud of and encouraged.

Air traffic levels worlwide have increased greatly but the increase in Ireland has been spectacular. Between 2005 and 2006 air traffic increased 36.7% . This was done with about 10% less ATC staff. Being lean and mean has its place but in a safety critical operation like ATC there is only so far you can push this business model.

Today in Shannon the complex system of computers and radar screens failed completely during peak lunch time traffic and again in the afternoon. All available controllers responded to the call for help in what is an emergency situation. The controllers dealt with this in a very cool-headed and professional way :D (I believe that thanks must go out also to the london,scottish and brest controllers too) This was one of the days where the phrase "above and beyond the call of duty" spring to mind like it did after 9/11 and the way the IAA controllers dealt with the situation that day too.
If the staffing levels get any worse this level of care cannot be guaranteed.

Like a lot of things in the aviation world this has its genesis in other , smaller matters that now have rolled into one bigger problem.
Things like having to fight to get a fatigue break after two hours of constant controlling. It got so bad that controllers had to start submitting safety reports in order to get a fatigue break otherwise they would be left there controlling for 4+ hours. As we all know fatigue is one of the worst dangers in the aviation world.

A huge amount of work has been done by the staff on a goodwill basis. New airpace , new procedures, new equipment , longer hours with more traffic have all been delivered on the basis that the staff would be rewarded in the future. Now that the work is done, management seem to think that a few percent will do. This is a pity as it erodes more goodwill and i dont think the staff will be inclined to deliver exceptional change items on 'credit' going into the future.

But in all conflicts and disagreements there must be a resolution. Nobody likes being in these situations. Hopefully the process that is going on in the background will resolve the difficulties. Hopefully the IAA will cease slandering its own staff in the press. I think IMPACT the union have shown graet restraint and indeed professional business mannner by not conducting its business in the press. I am also sure that if necessary IMPACT will issue a statement refuting the slanderous allegations made by the IAA management.

I will finish by re-iterating that the staff are not engineering any problems, only trying to resolve a rapidly approaching critical staffing crisis caused by no planning for the future, mismanagement, no investment in staff, and penny pinching to keep costs way below industry norms.

And when is declining OPTIONAL overtime industrial action??

Yours as ever

OCK1F

[baw676]

What else do you expect from a company that is run by an ACCOUNTANT. He only cares about money and where they can save it, not actually about SAFETY as they claim.

Its cheaper for them to have controllers working overtime than to have too employ more staff. As a result a controller working OVERTIME is going to be tired and less alert.

They offered an overtime system that saw you getting two options on overtime and the third time they asked you to work you could NOT say NO you had to come into work irrespective of whether you had a life outside of work.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[penniless]

It will be interesting to see how the negotiations etc pan out.

As an outsider looking in though, all support to the ATCOs, and fingers crossed IMPACT are staying quiet for a reason, and not for want of anything to contribute!

[Yahweh]

"I am also sure that if necessary IMPACT will issue a statement refuting the slanderous allegations made by the IAA management"

It is necessary. It's time to fight fire with fire. You don't get anywhere by being "nice" and cooperative. Look where it got us so far, a management that clearly don't respect their workforce and believe they can take us for a ride.

It's finally time to play hardball. The sooner the union realises that, the better we will all be.

[ock1f]

While i have no connection with Impact apart from being a member, I do feel that by not conducting a slagging match in the press that not only have IMPACT gained the high moral ground ,but they have shown to all that they are a way more professional outfit, with way more 'brains' and intelligence than the IAA management.

Having said that, the two press releases do require a measured public response in order to set the record straight.

A couple of weeks ago when Dub tower and airpace were closed due staffing RTE did a quick survey outside Dublin airport , asking passengers what they thought about the controllers "striking" (ignorance is terrible!) All stated that while they didn't want to be delayed-they would prefer that than having a tired, fatigued ,overworked controller looking after their flight. As one woman said " the one person in the airport you dont want tired and distracted is the controller" And so say all of us-except the IAA management
Interestingly management don't do shift work , are home at 530pm every evening,get to sleep in their own beds,are not up at 4 am working heavy traffic in order to generate income to pay the wages of EVERYONE in company, and im pretty sure they dont do SIX duties in FIVE days. Ever get the feeling of why are you busting your balls when you are obviuosly no appreciated.

Its not like we get a christmas bonus, its not like we get a christmas party, its not like we get health care , its not like we get ANYTHING that would make you feel like a valued member of a highly profitable and successful company. But are we asking for any of these things-NO-all we are asking for is more staff :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Having just re-read the IAA's press releases it struck me how angry and bitter the author/s were. The worrying thing is that these took quite a while to write and compose so whoever it was , i do fear for their mental state and peptic ulcer :eek:

As a consequence of the caustic press releases it has certainly increased the angry and militant feelings amonst staff. " You reap what you sow"

There is so much BS in the press releases it almost beggers belief.

The IAA contend that staff /IMPACT are orchestrating walk-outs to force management to give us more money. As far as i'm aware the union has not asked for anymore money for the call-ins or overtime. What it has asked for is more staff , and a guaranteed system of call-ins where staff will voluntarily agree to work X number of extra duties per year and there-by guaranteeing adequate staffing levels at all times.
Agreeing to give up X number of rest days per year to help the company meet its staffing requirements would be compensated as would any actual extra duties worked (as is the situation now , except they cannot guarantee that they will get anybody to come in ,-which is the problem ,-leaving the staff on duty exposed to the intolerable risk of being overworked , fatigued and not having enough staff to cope safely with the traffic levels)

Any way I'm signing off for the night :ok:

yours as ever
OCK1F

[goodworker]

Your observations on the press release are very astute ock1f. Having reread it myself it suddenly struck me that they have come to believe their own conspiracies.

They really do believe that recent tower closures were a deliberate ploy, and that money is the motivating factor.

You expect a certain spin in such literature, but to say that ATCO's orchestrated staff shortages is frankly, libellous, as it calls into question our very professionalism.

[EastCoaster]

All of this would certainly make one wonder; exactly how far are the IAA willing to push their control staff before something is done to sort this situation out?

What blinkered idiot decided that 6 shifts in 5 days is conducive to being well rested, particularly when the shifts all start at peculiar hours of the day and night? How have they gotten away with that gem?! :yuk:

Does there have to be a hull loss and multiple deaths before somebody finally realises that something needs to be written into law to ensure that ATCO's are properly rested before coming on shift??

And if that means ensuring there are adequate staff on the books to cover all situations, rather than relying on goodwill and/or compulsory overtime, then so be it! As has been seen in the last couple of weeks, it is very easy for management to p!ss the goodwill of the workforce up the wall!

But then, that utopian ideal is not likely to happen when the entity that would be responsible for making and regulating/enforcing such laws is the very commercial organisation that is at the heart of this problem!!

How have the Irish government allowed this situation with a self-regulating service-provider to persist for so long??

[qnhhpa]

Curiously the IAA seem to have removed their most recent press releases from their website.

For an organisation that claims to be concerned about safety they have a great ability to increasingly antagonise their controller staff. Stress levels were raised by their blatant slandering of their staff.

However two system failures in Shannon withinin hours of the IAA boasting of their '200 million euro' state of the art equipment could not have been better timed even if it had been 'orchestrated'!

And for those in the IAA who seem to be becoming even more out of touch with their controller staff - money is not the issue, inadequate staffing is.

[grr nav]

WANTED:

300 3 foot lenghts of 2" x 4"

300 square pieces of Cardbord with "strike on Here" printed on both sides

4 used oil drums suitable for using as makeshift fireplaces for standing around at the gates of ATC Centres and towers.

1 national union with the :mad: to back a full stoppage strike

[Aus ATC]

It would seem the IAA and Airservices Australia public relations hacks went to the same school for Bu%%sh!^ spinning. Blame the ATC's - it's not management's fault.

[deci]

Italian management had same school too..
According to those "genius" (most of all never been in a radar room) we are the guys paid (too much) to watch some green blips on tv..
good luck to the irish collegues :D

[The Jolly Roger]

dedededede.......Yesterday, 7th February, the Shannon Air Traffic Control System staged two 1 hour "wildcat" failures in solidarity with Controllers concerns over safety. Level headed controllers worked their B:mad:cks off to ensure that all planes were accounted for in case the picture disappeared into about a 3 inch square and duly dissappeared down a hole in the middle.....Just picture the scene at Shannon!!!!.......:uhoh::uhoh::uhoh:...Before any press release regarding same, Controllers would like to point out that they DID NOT ORCHESTRATE this stoppage. In a recent press release by management they assure customers that....

The Authority has spent nearly €200 million since 2000 in providing Ireland with one of the most modern Air Traffic Control Systems with numerous safety features giving our controllers one of the most advanced systems to work with and to handle increased traffic levels


The last group of controllers graduated in November 2007

UNtrue...The last group of controllers have been working for the past year and a half....The press release fails to mention that this class of controllers were let go by the company once their initial training was finished as they no longer had a requirement for them...only to want them back again a year later!!!

Its unlikely that what happened yesterday will have any impact on the minds of management as sure its JUST ANOTHER DAY:{:{...but if by any chance it does, this was no ordinary day. WE WANT MORE STAFF, WE WANT A BETTER ROSTER, and if your handing out any of that €15m or so profit, you might just think about us....so STRAIGHTEN UP AND FLY RIGHT!!!

[goodworker]

A recent roster proposal in Dublin had ATCOs work the cycle 6 on 3 off, 6 on 3 off, 7 on 2 off.

Seven days in a row? I, for one, just manage to scrape through the E on day five of the current cycle.

Can you imagine working on day 7 and our state of the art system decides to go belly-up again.

If the system cannot stay up and running, the very least we should be doing is making sure ATCOs are.

[ock1f]

AS you are aware the ballot to give the union the mandate for industrial action closed today. I haven't heard the result yet but i am fairly confident that it will give resounding support to the motion :D

I also note , both amongst some of my colleagues and some posters here that there is a rising feeling of militancy. While i share those feelings too I must say i hope we don't have to go outside the gate. All out strike and a full stoppage is the nuclear option-the final one left. The one thing about nuclear options is that they are M.A.D or mutually assured destruction. Both sides would suffer severe damage , damage that could be irreparable. Both staff and the company would be assured of sustaining damage and things would get very dirty ,very quickly and be very very unpleasant. At the end of the day a resolution to the conflict would still have to be found so better to find the reolution without the big red button being pressed.

While i am saying that we should be very carefull about an all out strike and that it should be our last option- i dont want anyone , especially management, to be in any doubt that the strength of feeling ,resolve , and capability to carry out a strike is there. Peoples minds and opinions have been very much hardened and resolved over the last few months to seeing this thru' all the way now and both the management and the union should pay heed to this. This resolve DOES extend to a strike that would see no ATC in Ireland at all.

So if all out strike is our nuclear option , i think there are many other legitmate ways of getting our point across.Obviously an Official ban on overtime and call-ins. That would hurt straight away. Working to rule- demanding your break every two hours , demanding that your sector is split when the traffic levels exceed the agreed maximums (like we did during the summer when fighting for our breaks ) and then seeing management scurrying around trying to get the staff to appear out of thin air. There are many , many ways taht we can prove that we are short of staff. I'm sure that controllers can be quite inventive at such things if and when the need arises :cool:

The question in my head and already asked here is-how far are the mangement prepared to go before they are willing to swallow their pride, admit that they are wrong and finally agree to do something constructive about the situation. Not even Ian Paisley says "NO" all the time anymore , but that is what management are doing. I suppose one of the hardest things anyone and everyone faces in life is admitting that you are wrong. Hopefully it won't take too much more to make them see the error of their ways and open their eyes to the REAL situation (not just the situation they think thats there)

At times like this other ,broader issues arise too. Our Chief EXEC is well known for stating that in his opinion controllers are over-paid and under worked. It is also well known that management (including former controllers who have gone over to the dark side :suspect: ) do NOT understand controlling at all.
The huge responsibility and associated stress of guiding tens of thousands of REAL PEOPLE around the sky and guaranteeing their safety can only really be appreciated by the people who do this job. We have shown many many people around ATC centers and towers , even had peolple plug into positions for a solid week but most still leave without a real understanding of what we do. I can remember myself years ago thinking that its only like a game on a big TV-little did i know back then! That is why when the people at the coal face-the only ones who truly understand the situation and the dangers that lie ahead-when they speak up it is imperative that the powers that be LISTEN .
The only comparason i can make is to a captain or pilot-in-command of an aircraft. When the executive controllers (to clarify thats all controllers) who have the responsibilty in their sector of running a safe operation in conjuction with the planner , and whom i would compare to a PIC and the FO of an aircraft, all unite and say we have a major issue here , this then should be heeded. Can you imagine all of the flight crews of an airline (like British airways for example ) saying we have an issue with not having enough staff to safely run the flightdeck and we are tired ,fatigued and are being ignored by our management there would be uproar and heads in management would roll. But because we work in ATC that for some reason doesnt happen. Go figure that one.

There is a view amongst the very highest levels of management in this company that see the operations room as a big black hole into which vast sums of money disappear and that controllers are soaking up all this money with their huge salaries and living the high-life as a result. There are quite a few people in the IAA who think of controllers as lower life forms who really have a nice easy cushy job and a huge salary for doing what? Well all we do is watch blips on a TV screen all day-isn't that right :ok:

Conversely the view inside the operations room looking out, is that we are the ones generating 90% of the income of this company and therefore by our hard work we earn and pay not only our own salary but everyone else's in the company too. I might point out that Our chief execs 330,000 euro salary and our press officers salary and all managements salary come from the money earned from providing aircraft with an air traffic control service . Who actually provides this service and generates this income? AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS DO.
But this is a much wider issue of how staff view management and how management view staff. Mutual respect and appreciation would be ideal and i would love for that to be the case. However i think its plain from my posts and others too, that this has been deteriorating for quite a while. If postives come out of this -and i hope we do get a positive change-then i would like to see both sides appreciate the other in a real way.

I know that there are direct entry people reading all this and thinking 'jasus no way i'm going there ' :{
But i would say please please apply. We obviously need staff and we needed them yesterday so as a direct entry you are in a very good negotiating position . Obviously i would counsel that you get some very good legal advice, you do in depth research and nail down your terms nad conditions with a nail gun.

It is very interesting that the two press release of the 6th and 7th of feb that slandered the staff have been removed. Has the comms manager come to her senses? Did they finally realise that chucking insults at your own staff in the press isn't the smartest thing? OR did the read this thread on pprune and realise the error of their ways :O

Finally there are no scheduled meetings between the union and management for the next two weeks. Considering that industrial action has just been authorised today surely it would make sense for both sides to continue to meet and try and resolve these issues. Two weeks of industrial action will no doubt see things turn unpleasant and with no hope of negotiated progress i would prefer to see the two sides actively talking to each other. I dont want to see this drag on for longer than necessary and as i have said before all conflicts and disagreemnets eventually need a resolution.

Of course any resolution requires management to do something other than just say no :ugh::ugh::ugh:

Your as ever
OCK1F

[goodworker]

Even us Dublin ATCOs must bow to the revenue earning powers of the Shannon high-level controller.

Thanks Lads:ok:

[ock1f]

Goodworker -good to know that ye recognise the darwinian truth that shannon are top of pile when it comes to earning power ;)

But i didnt mean my post to be taken in that manner. The idea that i was trying to get across is that its all the controllers in the three ops rooms across the company that generate 90 % of the company's income. It is pure chance of geography and historical precedence that shannon generates more per flight mainly due to the huge size of the airspace under the control of shannon. It has nothing to do with the exact earning power of one controller compared to another controller.

On a related topic- it is really good to see such unity and uniformity of agreement across the 3 groups of controllers (dub,crk and sha) . This unity has not always been there in the past but is good to see it there now .

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[goodworker]

Don't worry, ock1f, your point is clear. I was just engaging in some interstation appreciation, because you can be sure it won't come from any other source ;)

[The Jolly Roger]

Any scandal from the union??? I have me hat and gloves ready...even bought a warm coat!!! Would be a damn shame to waste it......:}

[DFC]

In the shannon example there was only one controller rostered (by management) in the tower between 7pm and 9pm. The minimum safe crew is 2. The only course of action open is to close the tower as it cannot be operated safely by one controller due workload and fatigue issues.

Not disputing the problems but I have some questions about the above reason for closing an international airport.

Are you saying that Shannon requires both Ground and Air open at such times because of traffic levels?

Are you also saying that compared to the UK busy airports / sectors where traffic levels during busy periods cause the usual max time between breaks to be reduced below the statutory 2 hours, the combined Air/Ground position at Shannon would be equally busy and require enhanced break intervals?

Are you saying that flow control was not an option while a combined air/ground position was operated at Shannon?

IS there also an ATSA position?

How many approach controllers are there? Is there split arrival / departure positions or split director / final positions? How many approach radar controllers are there in that period and how many are tower qualified?

Just how many movements was there filed for that period?

Thanks for the answers,

Regards,

DFC

[ock1f]

DFC- no problem with the questions and i will do my best to answer them. However a few caveats--1) i'm only one voice and don't have all the answers! 2) my figures are open to correction but are certainly very close 3) Full answers on some topics cannot be divulged at the moment due obvious reasons

How many movements were filed for that period?
Havent got a clue but wouldnt have been that many. However the stituation that presented itself left no option but to close the tower purely on safety grounds for all traffic.

How many approach controllers etc?
We have about 15 approach controllers in total.None are shannon tower rated. I think two would be on duty working in rotation. Shannon APP is one postion working both arrivals and deps.The most important fact is that shannon APP is run out of the dublin center. So this makes shannon APP irrelevant to any issue with shannon TOWER closing.

Is there an ATSA postion?
NO atsa-in fact its an obligation on the ground controller to operate the airport authority's movements computer-yes the one they use to send out the bills to the airlines.Nothing to do with ATC but we still have to fulfill our written obligations as staff. So no atsa at all.

Was there flow control?
No flow control-its against the IAA religion to put on flow control. Flow control are dirty dirty words as far as the IAA are concerned. However flow control would have been irrelevant anyway as the tower was shut.
There are questions about whether the airlines could have arrived and landed without anyone in the tower but that brings up huge questions about the airlines insurance obligations,whether its legal or not and a whole host of other questions which a court ultimately would be the decider of.

Einn compared to busy UK airports?
Of course einn is not like heathrow etc-its a small backwater airport on the very fringes of europe that just happens to have a very long runway and an IAA control tower. But as for combining air/ground that according the company's own rules is not possible.

Do controllers need a break before every 2 hour period is up?
I think ,but cant say 100%, that most controllers in non peak/busy times will work the full two hours but they definitely need a break after that. Its very important that once the two hour mark is hit that there is a break available (which has not always been the case). Its also not acceptable for the main atlantic diversionary airport to have only one controller on in case of incapacitation.

Does shannon require both ground and air open at such times?
Yes-company rules.

To be honest its very disappointing that such a situation would develop in the first place. A situation totally out of the controllers hands but most definitely within managements. A situation that left the one tower controller on duty in a terrible postion. As air traffic controllers we want to work-we want to control the aircraft and provide the service we are good at and we dont want to be in these situations but a time comes when you have to say sorry i cannot in all conscience work in such a situation, i cannot tolerate being put in a situation where rules will be broken, and safety potentially compromised and its our professional duty to protect safety ,first and foremost, and everything after that if safety is compromised, or has the potential to be compromised is irrelevant. But the most telling thing of all was that it was mangement who shut the tower on safety grounds. They obviously realised anything else would mean violating their own rules.

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[shyhawk]

ock1f- i'm very interested in a lot of your views regarding the upper echelons of IAA management and there obvious comptempt for the very people who line their pockets. For someone who has only found this forum recently i am amazed that from what i have seen in the media/IAA press releases which portrays the IAA controllers in a very bad light to the general public- obviously this is not the case.

2 questions:

1. Is it not about time that IMPACT made a firm, aggresive response to the bull:mad: being tossed about by the IAA management to the general public (who are none the wiser)?

2. What would your advice be to anyone applying to become a controller with the IAA in the near future??:confused:]

Stay classy
Shyhawk

[alwaysmovin]

Shyhawk my advise would be to get trained, do your 5 years to pay off your training and then get the hell out of there. Everybody needs staff and most of europe is opening up to direct entries. You'll get treated better and paid better. These opportunies did not exist formally and because the IAA have a policy of not taking controllers back after they leave very few took the risk before and the IAA figured they could just continue to treat their staff like **** because where else could they work if not for the IAA.

Hopefully the IAA may finally realise the mistakes they have made...continually...and take responsibily for the situation that has now arisen. I very much doubt it however and as their press releases have shown they are just a bunch of overpaid idiots who just keep making the situation worse. Absolutely no thought at all was put into those releases but then again no thought at all is put into anything within the IAA unless it involves saving money...or trying to screw employees

[ock1f]

To clarify , While i have no interest in dissing the management of the iAA it may appear thats all i do! I would like to point out that i was only outlining the background to why the controllers company wide ,are so worried about the situation and upset at how their own company views them.
At the end of the day both sides have to work together but in all things give and take it required. It is the firm view of staff that all they have done and are asked to do is give ,give, give. Hopefully this will change. From what i understand of the situation so far the staff are trying to offer management solutions to their problems but they won't even concide there is a problem.
In the absence of any progress ,in the absence of any sign that management are going to engage and in the presence of sustained and slanderous attacks , the controlleers have been left with no choice especially when it comes to their legitamate and proven concerns about the lack of staff and other issues.

Skyhawk to answer your second question : My advice would be to still go ahead and join. You are needed ,badly needed , so by me saying don't join would be counter productive to actually solving the problem of low staff. Obviously there are IR issues at the moment and they may very well get a lot worse before they get better. Obviously morale is at the lowest i can ever remember ..and as we face into the hectic spring and summer months people are really ,really worried and concerned about getting a hammering. The prospect of not getting any leave due to the chronic lack of staff is also making people worried. But like i keep saying management will have to engage and act at some stage and then hopefully things will improve and we can become one big happy family again :\

To answer your first question : Yes it is most definitely time for Impact and Michael Landers (assistant general secretary in charge of aviation ) in particular to stand up to the plate and be counted. If union representation is to count for anything they must support their members and back them to the full. If not then the entire concept of a union in ireland is dead and gone. I haven't seen any public utterance from Impact defending their members . While i have applauded their restraint thus far i must now say the time has come for Impact to publicly refute the IAA slander. Why else are we paying a hefty union subscription every year. Why are WE paying Michael Landers salary if he then doesn't do his job by listening ,supporting and backing Impact members. If Impact run away because they dont have the ba:mad:lls to stick their head above the parapet then the staff will just continue on by themselves. We are stiil represented by IATCA , we have a valid mandate for industrial action up to and including strike action so that will happen if the need arises.
I have expressed my view that i sincerely hope we dont have a full stoppage strike but if that is what it takes then so be it. Each person has to stand up , take the hits and be assured that they are doing the right thing especially in matters of safety.

Why are Impact being so quiet? Well it doesn't take a genius to to make the link between Mr. Eamonn Brennan (cheif exec of the IAA) and Mr.Seamus Brennan (senior government minister) -yes they are brothers. Now the cheif exec knows that there is a major storm brewing ahead and if that storm arrives its going to make him look really really bad. So over dinner one night he has a little word with his brother, the goverment minister about his problem and this storm thats approaching. Like all Fianna Fail ministers ,Seamus Brennan says "sure leave it with me ,I'll have a word with a few people"
As is well known the top tier of the unions in Ireland and the top tier of government are joined at the hip. So political interference and pressure start to be applied. Serious pressure-the type that has people quaking in their boots and worried about their livelyhoods.
Now of course this scenario never happened ;) and i'm not for one second insinuating or alleging that this took place-but if one was looking for a possible reason why impact have gone so quiet and are apparently on the verge of abandoning thier own members then this might be a possible candidate.

Again i express my wish that this can be sorted out but if there continues to be no progress at all then the storm is coming-Impact or no Impact.

Yours as ever OCK1F

[DFC]

Does shannon require both ground and air open at such times?
Yes-company rules.

I can bet that customers will be putting severe pressure on the IAA to have that changed. Can't argue on safety grounds since many more busy UK and European airports combine the Air / Ground position at times.

Can see a good case for the tower being a 1 ATCO and 1 ATSA position all day everyday.

What would the ATCO union position on that be?

Having 2 controllers for one position (the approach radar position) throughout the shift period but requiring 3+ controllers for what in reality is 1 ATCO position in the tower seems more than a little odd.

As an interested observer, I think that chosing Shannon Tower for this protest may have been a bit of an own goal as it could in fact show that the tower positions are over-staffed especially compared to UK airports with higher traffic levels!!

Regards,

DFC

[ock1f]

DFC-while i respect fully your right to post what you want ,I respectfully say that you really dont have the understanding of the situation. This is possibly down to my inadequate replies.I think you are applying SOPS and staffing arrangements in your neck of the woods to what would apply in shannon. Obviously there are major differences. I genuinely don't have the time to give you the full run down as i'm already late for an appointment-but one small example if i may.

There is no atsa or assistant or any other support H24 in shannon tower .The two contollers effectively do 3 jobs. No-one accepts its ok for one controller to do the 3 jobs. End of story i think.

As regards comparing APP with TWR i think again i wasn't as clear as i could have been. There are always two APP covering the one APP position at any one time obviuosly working in rotation. During a shift i guess that there could be 6 to 8 on.

Got to im really late :{

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[PPRuNe Radar]

Having 2 controllers for one position (the approach radar position) throughout the shift period but requiring 3+ controllers for what in reality is 1 ATCO position in the tower seems more than a little odd.

As an interested observer, I think that chosing Shannon Tower for this protest may have been a bit of an own goal as it could in fact show that the tower positions are over-staffed especially compared to UK airports with higher traffic levels!!

I think I read above that the Shannon Approach guys were located in Dublin ?? To give relief to the duty controller in the tower, aren't they going to have a hell of a commute ? ;)

Or maybe I misunderstand DFC's point. :}

[ock1f]

Sound familiar ? :ugh::ugh:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=312688

Yours as ever

OCK1F

Ok im really gone this time! Im so late its not funny

[alwaysmovin]

Dfc I think you have missed the point...the controllers did not CHOOSE to close shannon tower -there was no second controller for the tower because there was nobody rostered and the management themselves would not allow it to operate without a second controller.... not the controllers problem. The controllers may have chosen not to engage in overtime but they did not purposely close the tower.
Maybe later on the staffing of shannon tower will change but at this moment in time that is the rule set by the IAA and not the controller.

Its kind of like saying you only need one pilot in the cockpit because the airspace is quiet......What happens if he needs a break to go to the toilet or gets sick???

[goodworker]

I may be wrong, but it is my understanding that the tower position in shannon closed because their was only one tower ATCO on duty.

It may have been possible for that one controller to deal with the traffic, but we cannot let a live traffic situation continue in the full knowledge that if anything happens to that ATCO (incident, illness etc) there is nobody there to even wind down the operation.

[badback]

Shannon to shut 9pm to midnight tonight:

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mheyidkfqlsn/

[baw676]

and here

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0209/air.html

[grr nav]

The only reason that there have been closures in Dublin and Shannon is because the IAA do not staff for contingency.

For example, at the start of a 1400 duty if 5 positions require relieve only 5 ATCOs are rostered to come in. This is the same for all duties in Dublin and is probably the same in Shannon. If 1 ATCO goes sick, has an incident or is just late you either close the position and put in flow or it is covered by overtime.

Currently I am not comming in on overtime as

1, I have a life outside
2, I'm sick to my back teeth of the place
3, as managment don't listen to me I feel i've asserted some very small bit of control (no pun) back into my working enviroment.
4, maybe managment will wake up and realise that the IAA exsits outside of Hawkins Street.

The IAA have stated on numerous occasions that there is not a staffing problem and have not very subltly implied that controllers have conspired to cause these closures. and I supose the IAA are right.

how dare you ATCOs out there get sick and not be able to come in and spread your germs and as for you Female ATCOs, did you not read your contract with the IAA where it states that you shall not be allowed to get pregnant, shame on you all.

How on earth do you expect the IAA figures to add up if you keep malfunctioning.

As for others who expect to be able to take your A/Ls within 3 weeks of the day you need off, for minor things like your own wedding (happened) where is your commitment to our world leading organisation. If you cant take you leave the IAA will take if for you, sorry off you.

You more senior ATCOs, you know, the ones near retirement. Yes you have put in 35 years + of hard work and graft, but thats not enough. The IAA requires that you continue to operate as a healthy 25 year old and if you don't well your obviously not healthy enough to be assigned to Expert duties (which you have been doing for 20 years or so), so the IAA will dock you 2 increments moving you down the payscale. Oh but you will still be required to control aircraft.

The IAA request that you join a union that loves to talk. yes talk talk talk, its good to talk. It is important that profit making companies like the IAA and profit making companies like IMPACT engage in discussion. These are proffessional organisations who know whats best for us.

ATCOs KNOW YOUR LIMITS, what type of a crazy topsy turvy world would it be if a union listened to the wishes of its membership and a semi state listened to their primary stakeholders (thats us staff in case somebody from Corporate IAA is reading this).

oh by the way I WAS BEING SARCASTIC

[290kts]

What IAA management and their public relations lackey need to realise is that if this situation gets ugly and it very well may after the downright lies published by that jumped up ex controller collaberator of theirs, they will come out the worse for this dispute becoming more public. I am sure the press and public would be shocked to know the ammount of overtime being worked by a small minority of staff especially in dublin. The toothless safety regulator who is so much in bed with senior management that it is starting to look incestuous, the regulator hiding in his office knows where the rosters are kept but continues to turn a blind eye to the vast abuses of maximum permissable working hours and safe rest periods between duties. Rest assured there will not be a person in the country who will not be aware of these abuses if management continue to think that there are 100 operational staff in dublin (I would love to know where the extra 35 staff were conjured from) among many other IAA mismanagement delusions. As a final point has anyone in management ever asked for a days leave 9 months in advance for a childs birthday and when the roster is finally published to find the leave is not available-no staff shortage me a**e.

[badback]

Rest assured there will not be a person in the country who will not be aware of these abuses if management continue to think that there are 100 operational staff in dublin

Its easy when you include staff who are statioed in HQ and others who do not hold valid medicals...:ugh:

The IAA request that you join a union that loves to talk. yes talk talk talk, its good to talk. It is important that profit making companies like the IAA and profit making companies like IMPACT engage in discussion. These are proffessional organisations who know whats best for us.

Time for IMPACT to change their name to DAMPSQUIB.

[thelowestlevel]

Having been doing a lot of reading in this and other topics over the last few days, i thought i would add my two cents worth.

Quote from IAA web site:

News & Press Releases
Date: February 09 2008

Headline: Disruption to air traffic control services at Shannon Airport


9 February 2008: The Irish Aviation Authority regrets that due to continued unofficial disruptive action by air traffic controllers there will no air traffic control service at Shannon Airport tonight between 2100 hours and 2400 hours.

We regret the service interruption and inconvenience caused to our airline customers and passengers as a result of this unofficial action. Passengers should contact their airline for further information.

ENDS

As an operational controller, who like my collegues is currently working in an atmosphere that is not exactly wonderful at the moment, i find statements like this from our managemt not exactly pleasent, but little more than we have come to expect. The situation in shannon tonight is again down to staffing numbers, 1 controller in the tower from 2100 to 0000, when two are required, and the fact that there is no one available to work overtime is not unofficial aciton, as described in the press release, as we do NOT HAVE MANDATORY OVERTIME.

I would agree with grr nav

1, I have a life outside
2, I'm sick to my back teeth of the place

We work hard enough during our week, that management expecting controllers to work on their days off to shore up a poor roster and bad planning cannot be expected to continue.

Surely the flying public would be happier knowing that there are refreshed controllers on duty rather than dog-tired dissillusioned ones.

[grr nav]

http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=446

Date: February 09 2008

Headline: Disruption to air traffic control services at Shannon Airport


9 February 2008: The Irish Aviation Authority regrets that due to continued unofficial disruptive action by air traffic controllers there will no air traffic control service at Shannon Airport tonight between 2100 hours and 2400 hours.
We regret the service interruption and inconvenience caused to our airline customers and passengers as a result of this unofficial action. Passengers should contact their airline for further information.
ENDS

For further information contact:
Lilian Cassin
Corporate Communications Manager
Irish Aviation Authority
Tel: 087 647 4079

iaa decode

"continued unofficial disruptive action" = we as managment dont have enought controllers to staff the positions if there is an unforseen absense.

[badback]

The situation in shannon tonight is again down to staffing numbers, 1 controller in the tower from 2100 to 0000, when two are required, and the fact that there is no one available to work overtime is not unofficial aciton, as described in the press release, as we do NOT HAVE MANDATORY OVERTIME.

Is this a regular occurence in Shannon, and how long have staff been giving them a dig out by covering on OT?

Serves them right for cutting to the bone and expecting fatigued controllers to take up the slack. How dare we want adequate rest periods?

[baw676]

only 60% of staff in Dublin do overtime, so does that mean the other 40% of staff have been conducting "industrial action" for the last god knows how long?

[DFC]

PPRuNe Radar,

Yes, you did misunderstand my point.

I was not suggesting that the APR guys provide breraks in a tower hours away.

I was making the point that

a) In European ATC terms, it is very hard to justify always having Air and Ground open at an airport as quiet as Shannon. One may find it hard to justify ever having the positions split based on the usual traffic figures.

b) The ATCO's and the IAA seem quite happy with two ATCO's for one position i.e. one on / one off breaks as seems to be the case for the aproach radar position.

c) The IAA (and also the ATCO's since they have not proposed a reduction) require 3 ATCO's at all times to man a quiet control tower - Air, Ground and one on a break.

Seems to me that 1 ATCO on a combined Air/Ground and 1 to give breaks and cover contingency plus an ATSA for busy periods would be suficient.

Can you see somewhere like Carlisle needing such an ATCO staffing level?

------------

goodworker

Dfc, would it be common practice to have only one tower ATCO available in your neck of the woods?

I think that you will find it common practice in many places.

You do not have to go as far as the UK......you only have to look at..........Kerry, Galway, Waterford, Sligo, Knock and Donegal..........Oh and of course, it is also common practice at Shannon to not have a spare ATCO to replace either the Air or Ground controller should they fall off their chair and go U/S.

Shannon can get by prefectly safely with 2 Tower ATCOs - one working and one on a break............perfectly safe since there is very little traffic.

If there was only 1 ATCO on shift then quite simply, the tower should have been operated as combined Air/Ground (with flow if necessary - can't see a reason at Shannon) for 2 hours, closed for 30 minutes while the ATCO had a break and re-opened for another 2 hours.

Heck - give the guy a 1 hour break.........still only means a 1 hour closure in 5 hours!!!!!

Why they need a 3 hour break from such hectic traffic is beyond me.

Customers affected by the lack of availability should be making these points to the IAA.

Regards,

DFC

[tin-pusher]

The IAA can solve this problem in a matter of weeks and it lies in the 20+ résumés they have from current contollers seeking Direct Entry. In early autumn, the IAA knew this crisis was coming, and encouraged Weston, military and regional controllers to submit their CV's....and that was it! :rolleyes:

Nobody has heard anything since!

The solution is obvious, and it's lying on HR's desk :ugh:

[The Jolly Roger]

I'm sick to the teeth of listening to this management make us feel like cow ****. Because thats the way I feel right now. :ugh:Its time that we, as a united body of Air Traffic Controllers, made a stand against all this obvious slander. The media haven't seen "unofficial action" yet.....SHAME ON THE IAA...SHAME ON YOU....Wher the hell is IMPACT...Why are you letting this happen...This is shocking...Your members need you NOW...Where are you...????

[badback]

The IAA can solve this problem in a matter of weeks and it lies in the 20+ résumés they have from current contollers seeking Direct Entry.

1. Have you forgotten the requirement to complete rating training, or do you think direct entries will simply walk in one day and pick up a headset?

2. Even with huge recruitment, the problem of the IAA providing no contingency to cover sick leave (other than an ad hoc overtime scheme that staff are increasingly sick of providing) will always lead to shortages of staff. Despite their protestations recently that ATC rosters do not rely on overtime, it is clear that managements plan to deal with shortages (in many cases long term illness and pregnancies) by relying on their current arrangements.

[tin-pusher]

Badback, I'm only well aware the of the length of a conversion course. When I said a "matter of weeks", I meant getting the ball rolling for a solution.....sorry!

[irishatco]

ATCOS are paying €600 a year to the union - where are they?

ATCOS give up 1 day of leave a year to the union-where are they?

IAA spouts loads of lies on the website - wheres the unions rebuttal?

We are well used to Mr Landers on the tv or radio defending members of other impact branches when there is trouble like this - Where is he?

Wheres Shergar
Wheres Jimmy Hoffa
Wheres Elvis
Wheres Waldo
Wheres the Union?:ugh:
Wheres my money gone?:ugh:
Wheres my leave day gone?:ugh:

Where are the people employed by us to defend us from this bull**** media campaign?

ANYONE?:confused::confused::confused:

[badback]

Soon to be shown the door if they don't buck up their ideas methinks...

[goodworker]

Being primarily familiar with Dublin tower, the thought of only one tower ATCO in the building is inconceivable. Combining AMC and SMC at 0630 would make for a very interesting morning :eek::eek::eek:

Still, with regards to the recent closure, the ATCO had to follow the minimum staffing line. A line which has been set down, wisely enough, by our management. For ATCOs, acting outside procedure is like having no immune system. You might be okay, you could well be okay, but if some nastiness decides to come your way YOUR F****D.

[Lord Lardy]

From Ryanair's website.


The Irish Aviation Authority advised Ryanair last evening (8th February) that due to another unofficial strike action by their Air Traffic Control staff at Shannon, the airport will be closed to aircraft from 9pm to midnight on Saturday 9th February.
This will inevitably cause disruption, delay and possibly cancellations. Ryanair apologises to passengers for any inconvenience this action will cause (which is out of our control).
Ryanair once again calls on Bertie Ahern and his government to put in place appropriate contingency plans to keep Irish airports open and avoid passengers being hijacked by wildcat trade unions' strikes.
As usual Bertie Ahern sits on his hands doing nothing while passengers are needlessly and unfairly disrupted by his out of control trade union pals. Time to get your finger out Bertie?

[grr nav]

"to put in place appropriate contingency plans"


like having extra staff?? :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:


i must admit to being called a lot of things in my time, but a wildcat?

Grrrr baby :}

[alwaysmovin]

Air traffic controllers vote for industrial action

From ireland.com

12:25

Sunday, 10th February, 2008


Air traffic controllers have voted 99 per cent in favour of industrial action including strike.

A dozen flights were cancelled at Shannon Airport last night after controllers again refused to work overtime.
Management say the controllers are engaged in unofficial wildcat action but the controllers, who are members of Impact trade union, say they are not contractually obliged to work overtime and do so voluntarily.
They have taken the action due to what they say is chronic under-staffing. It takes some time to train controllers even if they are qualified and the company says it has hired around 15 people who will join the service on completion of their training later this year.
The vote was concluded on Friday and the details were released today. The union must serve two weeks notice of any industrial action it proposes to take but has not done so to allow time for internal discussion on what for industrial action should take. Talks at the Labour Relations Commission are set for Tuesday week.

[ock1f]

Having made the appointment yesterday i am now recovering from it-still not feeling the best but there you go. If for arguements sake i was not fit for duty by the time my next duty day comes around, how much chaos would this cause? Who knows, as the staff might or might not be there to fill to gap.

As already posted "only 60% of staff in Dublin do overtime, so does that mean the other 40% of staff have been conducting "industrial action" for the last god knows how long? "
Well yes by the IAA logic the 40% of staff who haven't agreed to do OPTIONAL overtime and call-ins have indeed been engaging in wildcat industrial action. Anyone see a fault in that logic ?

While i am not privvy to up-to-date figures i do know that in the month of November just gone there were a total of 92 call-ins in shannon. This with a total controller workforce of approx 140. I'm not very bright (hence i'm an ATCO :) ) but that seems to me that the roster is propped up by overtime and call-ins to a huge degree.
92 call-ins in one month out of a total staff of 140-ish.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Throw into that a few pregnancies, maternity leave, the vey odd sickness and about 30 to 40 atcos on project work and i think the staffing picture (for one station) starts becoming much clearer. I am sure that the Dub and Crk people have their own figures which are just as interesting.
The one thing i have noticed is that people are coming into work visibly sick. When this is commented upon, they say that they are worried about leaving their colleagues short and having to cope. So don't for one second doubt the commitment and dedication the atcos of this company have to actually working and doing the job even in adverse conditions.

On a related matter, about 2 to 3 years ago IAA staff were bombared with literature on how the IAA had the best family friendly policies and work life balance policies. It sounded great. Where are they now?
This has already been stated but people have a life outside of the job.They do want to spend SOME time with their families . Also having finished the normal working week they are sick of the place so dont feel like working extra OPTIONAL days. It is not unknown for leave to be denied a full year after having applied for it. To all non-IAA atcos who read this ,imagine informing your employer today that you need the 10th of Feb 2009 off. Imagine how you would feel when the 10th of Feb 2009
actually comes around and the leave has been denied due a staff shortage. Imagine how you would feel when the leave you require is for your wedding,a close family members funeral,the birth of your child,your birthday or any other momentus personal occasion and you can't get leave.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Family friendly and work life balance policies as well as protecting and advancing their members working conditions are the publicly stated aims and policies of Impact. So why have they been so tardy in representing and protecting their members?

Well i still think there is serious outside pressure being applied to Impact with the intention of heading off any strike action or at least delaying it for as long as possible. Obviously a strike that would ground all air traffic in Ireland and delay or cancel thousands of flights around europe and the USA would become a huge political and media event. In fact this would become one of the biggest political issues that Ireland would have seen in a long time.

However i would say to Impact that there has been a valid ballot and an unequivecal (sic) result so issue the industrial action notice to the IAA. I am no expert on the technical IR rules but i think a week or maybe two weeks notice must be served of the action. So serve the notice and then meet the IAA face to face. The industrial action notice would most definitely focus the minds across the table and hopefully prompt them that now might the time to engage in meaningfull talks.

Just because we serve action notice does NOT mean that we have to advocate an all out stoppage as our first option. I have said numerous times here that the nuclear option should be our last and final option despite the obvious mood for giving the company the kick up the arse that they need to wake them up. I have also previously said that an official ban on call-ins and overtime and a work to rule policy should be the first options if we need to. Obviously in the absence of any progress then the need arises. Working to rule would really highlight the staff deficiencies. Every two hours demand your breaks,demand that your sector is split when you hit the agreed maximums and watch management try and conjure staff out of thin air especially with no overtime or call-ins (which again are totally optional)

To Impact i also say that if you don't support your members and back them up and protect them, then Impact WILL be shown the door. I imagine as this now is so high profile they cannot deny their own membership.

To sum up-we need to play this smart and play it cool. We can acheive so much by doing so little as the situation that is there at managements behest will do it for us !

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[norby]

I can confirm that for about 75(ish) live controllers in Dublin there were around 400 call ins for the last 6 months of 2007 and yet the IAA claim that the system is not dependant on overtime. I don't see how an average of 2.5 duties per day covered by overtime can be considered normal!! The 75 controllers man " area radar sectors, approach tower, ground, and clearance. They are also supposed to facilitate an intermediate approach, FIS and departure controller positions.
I don't know exactly how many but on a surprising number of occasions ATCO's worked 2 consecutive rest days meanig they were in work for 12 out of 13 days!!!!! Does IAA mangement not have a duty of care towards the health and safety of their staff( not to mention the public)?

Add in maternity leave and up coming retirements and the 75 shrinks to 65ish before the end of this year.
No replacement staff until 2009 AT THE EARLIEST and thats if they can find anyone to train the recruits.
OH YES thing at Irish ATC are heading only one way.......

[irishatco]

The latest offering from iaa website

http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=447


10 February 2008: The Irish Aviation Authority was advised earlier today through a media statement by the IMPACT trade union that Air Traffic Controllers had balloted for industrial action, up to and including strike action. Notice of this action, or indeed the nature of any action, has not yet been served on the Authority.
The Authority is disappointed by IMPACT’s communication through a media statement. Any action is in breach of the current National Agreement, Towards 2016, a Continuity of Service Agreement, signed by IMPACT and the Irish Aviation Authority, and national industrial relations procedures. Disruptive action is continuing notwithstanding an ongoing process in the Labour Relations Commission to resolve the various issues at the heart of this dispute.
The Irish Aviation Authority responds to today’s IMPACT statement as follows.

The Authority is satisfied, that through custom and practice, overtime arrangements applying to Air Traffic Controllers form part of their conditions of service. Of course it would be better if overtime was not necessary. However, in any operation requiring cover over 24 hours, extra attendance will feature as a means of addressing short notice absences such as sickness. Many Air Traffic Service Providers, including the National Air Traffic Services in the UK, have in place schemes of additional attendance to augment operational service delivery. The current overtime arrangements were introduced as part of an overall agreement reached with Controllers under Clause 2 (iii) of Partnership 2000 for which they received a 17% pay rise.
There is not a shortage of Air Traffic Controllers in the Irish Aviation Authority. In fact, some 15 Controllers retired from the Authority under a Voluntary Early Retirement Scheme in 2003/2004 without IMPACT objection. Staffing levels are matched to the level of air traffic at any given time and are applied in accordance with international standards.
IMPACT agrees that traffic demand is the prime determinant in the deployment of staff resources and it is a matter for management to decide on restrictions to apply whenever necessary. It is common practice among all Air Traffic Service Providers to apply traffic restrictions where demand exceeds the capacity of the system. Air Traffic Controllers are very well protected from overload through a defined workload threshold.
The Authority acknowledges that as part of an agreed flexible arrangement voluntary overtime is used to cover absences primarily caused by sick leave. The Authority rejects the IMPACT statement that the air traffic control system has become over dependent on rest day attendance. To put this in context total overtime attendance by Air Traffic Controllers in 2007 represented less than 2% of contracted hours and the average overtime attendance was less than one hour per Controller per week.
While the current system of extra attendance is equitable with overtime available to all Controllers, both sides are currently considering an alternative method of extra attendance to address short notice absences.
The Irish Aviation Authority advertised for Student Air Traffic Controllers in August 2007 and 36 Students will commence training next month and the first of these will be fully operational mid 2009. This recruitment was planned to meet forecasted traffic growth and expected retirements well in advance of the current embargo on overtime which commenced in January 2008.
While some Air Traffic Controllers have worked overtime the reality is that notwithstanding IMPACT commitments Controllers have refused to cover sick leave absences and absences caused by the release of ATC Branch members to attend LRC discussions.Air Traffic Controllers have benefited from all four phases of T-2016 and in addition to the 10% paid under that agreement have also, through a Labour Court process completed in December 2007, secured a Recommendation of an additional 5% pay increase backdated to 1 January 2006 to cover all change up to the end of 2008. No staffing issues arose prior to the announcement of the Labour Court award, even during busy months of July/August and Christmas, where maximum staff would be on leave
The Authority regrets the continuous inconvenience to the travelling public, but must advise that having regard to the current action restrictions to traffic and consequential delays over the coming days may be inevitable.
ENDS
For further information contact:

Corporate Communications Manager
Irish Aviation Authority
Tel:

[norby]

If my memory serves me correctly The IAA have had to be dragged to the labour court to MAKE them pay the last 2 0r 3 National wage agreements because they claimed inability to pay.

It would take a complete fool to compare the IAA and UKNATS
After all They are rated as NO. 10 in the top 100 employers in the UK and the IAA is rated No 248 in Ireland.:yuk:
Any UK controllers care to join us and tell us if you cant get leave or parental leave or job sharing or carreer breaks.
Still if you work "under" someone whos brother promotes you into a 6figure salary in charge of a semi state under his jurisdiction despite your obvious failures as Commercial director you might feel invincible too.

So the IAA's interpretaetions of short term shortage is an average of 800 call ins per year?
Are we now indentured slaves liable to work 55 hour weeks because of managements interpretations of partnership and short term?

Is anyone surprised that none of the IAA comuniques so far mention the dirty word SAFETY.
When accountants run safety services!!! I think i saw that on SKY 1:D:D:D it centred on Uberlingen and Linate.
Keep the Standards High and make the accountants accountable:*

[ock1f]

Hi guys
just my opinion but i dont think we should refer to the IAA comms person by name or frau goebbels. Just my two cents-i prefer to keep it non-personal, which this is. Its just business,not personal, and we are the professional smart ones here as is obvious when you read each succesive press release by managment/corporate comms manager.

Their statements are so juvenile and full of holes i could write for a week.:ugh:
The posts here do a very job good job of exposing the lies,untruths,statistical mistakes,failed logic and downright dirty spin that these statements spew forth.
However it is only by exposing each lie and untruth that we get our message across.

This is a very public forum and you can bet that a very close eye is kept on it not only by our colleagues but also Impact ,the press and especially the IAA.
At the moment in the absence of any public utterance from Impact these posts by you and me are the ONLY public counterbalance to the IAA's (admittedly) very good spin. This is a professional dispute mainly of saftey issues so i intend to keep it clean and proffessional!!!!

Unless provoked ! :}:ouch::suspect::}:}:}

Yours as ever
Ock1f

[Del Prado]

The Authority is satisfied, that through custom and practice, overtime arrangements applying to Air Traffic Controllers form part of their conditions of service................. The current overtime arrangements were introduced as part of an overall agreement reached with Controllers under Clause 2 (iii) of Partnership 2000 for which they received a 17% pay rise.



Overtime is voluntary but it's part of your terms and conditions so employer has a right to expect it?

As a NATS controller I find this very interesting.

[ock1f]

Del prado-overtime is 100% voluntary but is NOT , i say again, NOT part of our T +C's

Just spin and lies :ugh::ugh::ugh:

For pure arguements sake just say they were part of our T+C's - its still VOLUNTARY or OPTIONAL purely at your own PERSONAL CHOICE and part of that choice is saying yes or NO.
So how then,logically can you rely on this mechanism to patch up a woefully short staff situation.
Hope that helps

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[PPRuNe Radar]

I agree with ck1F. Don't belittle your arguments with childish name calling. The appropriate editorial changes have been made. Now back to the debate ...

Many Air Traffic Service Providers, including the National Air Traffic Services in the UK, have in place schemes of additional attendance to augment operational service delivery.

The UK NATS has an 'overtime' scheme called the AAVA Scheme. This stands for Additonal Attendance Voluntary Agreement. My emphasis on the Voluntary. But maybe the IAA don't quite understand what it actually entails. Units may have slight local variations but in general;

The AAVA scheme has a limited life. The ATCO union, Prospect, on behalf of it's members have agreed when it is valid until (2009 rings a bell). After that, it can be terminated, or an extension or change to conditions negotiated if that's what members want. It is by no means certain that it will continue indefinitely.

Staff are not obliged to sign up for it if they don't want to. The clue is in the word Voluntary.

Staff who do sign up to it generally make NATS aware of when they are available for callout. If you have not registered your interest in doing AAVAs you won't receive a call.

Staff who are called may decline the offered shift if they wish, there is no compulsory attendance for any minimum number of shifts. There is a national agreed maximum number of attendances.

Staff who have agreed to attend an AAVA prior to the publication of the roster will be rostered for the duty as a strategic shift attendance. It can only be cancelled with the agreement of both parties.

Staff who are called after the roster is published should normally be given 48 hours notice if possible (but this can be reduced, e.g. to cover last minute sickness). Up to 48 hours before the shift, either party can cancel the attendance if they choose.

Attendances are renumerated with a one off payment per shift. This varies depending on the unit grading, but is in the range £200-£600 before tax approximately.

A similar scheme exists for staff to sell annual leave, up to a maximum of 6 days per annum. Again, this is voluntary.


NATS cannot count on anything other than the goodwill and the promise of some cash to make people attend on 'overtime'. Reading the press statement from the IAA, they seem to think that it is part of their controllers core conditions of employment and it is inferred that it is mandatory. The ATCOs in NATS (I strongly believe) would never accept such conditions as basic terms of employment.


There is not a shortage of Air Traffic Controllers in the Irish Aviation Authority. In fact, some 15 Controllers retired from the Authority under a Voluntary Early Retirement Scheme in 2003/2004 without IMPACT objection. Staffing levels are matched to the level of air traffic at any given time and are applied in accordance with international standards.

This sounds like a version of 'The Emperor's New Clothes'. :ugh: Shortage ?? What shortage ??


One side in the debate is telling porkies it would seem.

[thelowestlevel]

Having read the statement from the IAA website, i am again dismayed but not surprised. I would second ock1f, to keep this as business like as possible and not get personal.

To dispute a few points:
Quote
"The Authority is satisfied, that through custom and practice, overtime arrangements applying to Air Traffic Controllers form part of their conditions of service. Of course it would be better if overtime was not necessary. However, in any operation requiring cover over 24 hours, extra attendance will feature as a means of addressing short notice absences such as sickness."

These schemes are in place, but go look at back issues of the Network news and you will see occassions where sectors in adjacent centres are closed, and the stated cause is "Staff Shortages" or even on occassion, it actually states "sick Leave"

This brings me to point 2:
Quote
"It is common practice among all Air Traffic Service Providers to apply traffic restrictions where demand exceeds the capacity of the system. Air Traffic Controllers are very well protected from overload through a defined workload threshold."

This in simple terms is Flow Control/Management.
These particular words are "dirty words" as far as Shannon Management are concerned. Whie restrictions do get put in place for holiday flights on the T Routes, flow restrictions are never implemented in Shannon for regular day to day NAT traffic, or are a lower number of NAT tracks requested due to staffing shortages.

Staff are left to cope, and sitting in for in excess of the 2 hour max is common practice when staffing is below minimums on very busy days.

If this is queried by staff, the response is generally not pleasent, := := := and the standard answer of "Staffing is at the discretion of Management" is regurlarly used.
Does this mean that as a consequence of over worked controllers, passenger safety is also at the discretion of management.:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[PPRuNe Radar]

Staff are left to cope, and sitting in for in excess of the 2 hour max is common practice when staffing is below minimums on very busy days.

Does Ireland have a legal restriction on controllers hours and working practices ?? The UK has a relatively robust scheme and offers the ATCO the level of protection needed in terms of duty times, rostered hours, fatigue breaks, etc. It's called SRATCOH and can be found here in Appendix D if you want a look :

CAP670 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP670.PDF)

[norby]

Hi Del Prado:ok:
Thanks for the post.
Just so you get a rounded view, as a Dublin ATCO I get an annuyal allowance of 33 days Annual Leave to use at my discretion, however, under IAA leave policies any unused leave will be taken back by the company with no compensation offered. (ILLEGAL)
This is well and good if you can apply for and use up all your leave in the given year but when you apply for 80 days leave and get 20 to 25 of those including your guaranteed 12 days for summer hols and 5 days for winter it becomes impossible to accept. I mentioned a figure of 800days OT per year in Dublin, this is only to cover sick leave and project work and admin. Nevr to give a hard working controller a day off.
People here are sick to death of missing Family weddings (or their own) birthdays social occasions and all manner of other "Normal" social interactions because 90% of the time leave is refused.
It is impossible even to get unpaid Parental Leave which is a statutory right.
When one female controller announced her pregnancy to management she was asked if it was reversable!!!!! ( or so I'm Told)
Maybe we should ditch Impact and sue the IAA for breach of contract, after all they are obliged to give us all the leave we aare entitled to in our contracts!

[Yahweh]

I think it may soon be time to jump ship before this one sinks :\

Any jobs going in NATS? :E

[badback]

The Authority is satisfied, that through custom and practice, overtime arrangements applying to Air Traffic Controllers form part of their conditions of service. Of course it would be better if overtime was not necessary. However, in any operation requiring cover over 24 hours, extra attendance will feature as a means of addressing short notice absences such as sickness. Many Air Traffic Service Providers, including the National Air Traffic Services in the UK, have in place schemes of additional attendance to augment operational service delivery. Utter nonsense, are they seriously suggesting that an individual exercising their right not to attend for voluntary overtime is in breach of their terms of service? I have a contract of employment from the IAA that does not mention a requirement to provide overtime, and I am in full compliance with that contract. They can sing for overtime for all I care...:mad:


The Authority acknowledges that as part of an agreed flexible arrangement voluntary overtime is used to cover absences primarily caused by sick leave. The Authority rejects the IMPACT statement that the air traffic control system has become over dependent on rest day attendance. To put this in context total overtime attendance by Air Traffic Controllers in 2007 represented less than 2% of contracted hours and the average overtime attendance was less than one hour per Controller per week.

Fine, let IMPACT withdraw from negotiations with the IAA and let controllers continue to exercise their right to adequate rest between shift cycles, and we'll see how they get by without us for a mere 2% of contracted hours.

If it's not an issue why are they slandering us in their press statements?

:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Finally:

There is not a shortage of Air Traffic Controllers in the Irish Aviation Authority.If that is so why are the IAA taking a class of 36 SCPs (12 more than any previous intake) in March, an intake of direct entries (as yet undetermined numbers) and also writing to recent retirees and begging them to accept contracts as instructors in Ballycasey so that they don't have to release badly needed operational staff to training?

They have little difficulty in sending staff to Paris on projects though, wouldn't do to show ourselves up in front of Eurocontrol...:rolleyes:

[irishatco]

Does Ireland have a legal restriction on controllers hours and working practices ?? The UK has a relatively robust scheme and offers the ATCO the level of protection needed in terms of duty times, rostered hours, fatigue breaks, etc. It's called SRATCOH and can be found here in Appendix D if you want a look :


Short answer is not really. Nothing as civilised as the CAP670

We have a few " roster principles " written on the back of a cigarette box which dictate max. no of nights per annum (87), core night duty period (0000-0600, open to correction) during which time no duty will start/end, and a few other bits and pieces including max number of hours per week (34.75 net of meals) /also per individual duty ( max 9.5hrs ??)

The Government working time act ( min 11 hours between 2 consequetive duties)doesnt really come into play but attempts are made to flout this frequently, rostering night duty 8 hours after end of early duty (D/N2)

also bear in mind that fatigue breaks are running concurrently with meal breaks, and the time to handover a position is not factored into meal breaks.

[ock1f]

Back from my meal break so here goes:

PPrune radar's post expressed the point excellently on what 'voluntary' means and i have to say it was very very interesting reading to see how NATS treat their staff. Much food for thought there. It is also interesting to note , that if memory serves me correctly, our esteemed chief exec spent quite a while on "secondment" to NATS so Im sure he got a full run down on staffing,and T+C's of controllers. :ooh:

Quote
"It is common practice among all Air Traffic Service Providers to apply traffic restrictions where demand exceeds the capacity of the system. Air Traffic Controllers are very well protected from overload through a defined workload threshold.

I take that with a very large grain of salt.

As the lowestlevel said "This in simple terms is Flow Control/Management.
These particular words are "dirty words" as far as Shannon Management are concerned. Whie restrictions do get put in place for holiday flights on the T Routes, flow restrictions are never implemented in Shannon for regular day to day NAT traffic, or are a lower number of NAT tracks requested due to staffing shortages" but if i can give a bit of background here if i may.
Controllers have been calling for a sector capacity study for years. For years it has fallen on deaf ears. As a result the CFMU have no baseline data , so they don't know when we need flow control. The CFMU have been politely told by the IAA "if we need your help we will ask for it-get the message" When ever flow control is mentioned you had better duck for cover. As a result whenever a controller sits in they have no way of knowing how busy it is going to be and if its gets really busy there is no flow control available because its too late to flow the traffic-its already there.
I have personally seen sectors that have been split both vertically and laterally to the max and yet in my opinion( not everyone wil agree) the traffic levels remained above acceptable levels. Again in my opinion the only solution would have been flow control. The amount of flow would a have been negligable ( only a few planes and only a minute or two each) but it would have made all the differance. But we dont even look at these things.

For the hours worked i think our requirement is 37.5 net. We do have a minimum rest period of 11hrs between two consecutive duties but as before this is often flouted. Its funny how in the piloting community the min rest period is completely untouchable yet not in ATC.

I know of one station where the longest duty on each shift cycle is 11 hours and 15 mins. It starts at 9pm the night before and finishes at 815am. Thats 11 hours and 15mins of peak atlantic and terminal traffic. I wonder how the travelling public would react to that if they found out that the controller keeping them safe can barely keep their eyes open from fatigue and high traffic. In our last quartely survey of MOR events it was found that 75% of lateral seperation breaches occured while the controller was on nights-the other night duty being from 0000z to 945am!:(:( .(past 13west and south of 51 north etc) Go figure the probale cause of that issue!

On the issue of press releases nothing upsets or surprises me any more. I take it all with a large grain of salt,read it carefully and then accept or reject each point as made. I'm no master debater (pun intented ;) !) but i would like to think that the points and issues put forward by the IAA are easily defeated and appear to be defeated here very easily.

At the time DUB closed the IAA released a statement saying that 72 controllers were in training( widely reported in the press) .There is not ONE controller training at the moment. We are due to see 24 in the start of March. Now i see that its 36 students due in March. Great the more the better.
However i have two observations. If we catergorically dont have a staff shortage surely increasing the class intake from 24 to 36 is pure wanton economical excess.Why spend 100,000 euro plus on each trainee if we only need 24 as we are not short of staff-at all (as contented by IAA). Surely the chief exec should answer why we are training more controllers than we need? As PPrune radar said -i think someone is telling porkies!

My second observation on this is : as far as i know the max number of ab initio atco students that can be handled is 24 - hence the size of the original class. Now even if we can squeeze them into some class room and get them to pass the bookwork ( all 36) i am fairly certain that we dont have enough sims to train 36 students-unless the school converts over to a 24 hour schedule and trains students at 3am and 4 am -which would probaly be great practice for working in the real world! But then where would you get the intsructing staff from?????????

There is a rumour going around that the last bunch of early retirees are being tempted back. Yes , thats it sent on their way after a life time of work,give 'em their pension and then hire them back at a huge premium. Now if they want to come back then they are welcome but i wonder about the whole forward planning and economic value of the proposition? But then i am probabaly expecting too much of management-stuff like forward planning , and so forth. Or is it too much to expect ?

Finally i want to end on a positive note. It takes a while to get to the positive bit but bare with me. I know for a fact that there is a sizeable group who are actively looking at jumping ship. Its for the usual reasons-see the world ,adventure but now there is the added factor of the perception that the controlling staff are treated like sh:mad:t. Only time will tell how many will actually go.

I find it sad that is the case. I want to work for a company that values all its staff, not just the ones in the fancy offices. It doesnt take much to make staff feel appreciated-a lot less than you think.

Imagine how the sentiment and atmosphere and perception of things would change if the staff felt valued ,appreciated and looked after.

Give us a half decent chance of getting some leave,dont try and keep sweating your assets -this isn't a toothbrush factory its a safety critical service, give us enough staff, give us decent breaks while working,reward us for ALL the HUGE projects we have delivered on and will keep delivering on, dont diss us in the press, mend some bridges, give us some humane working conditions like on night duties and night duty facilities (you know what i mean) , and if we believe you, you might find that a lot of your problems go away.

This next bit will upset some people :\ , but generally some of each stations local management are half decent to deal with :). Its further up the line the problem is. The local boys are hand-tied and i do feel sorry for them as they are getting from both sides. So perhaps the upper echolons can come to their senses and see sense. This can all go away very quietly if the right tack is taken starting tomorrow morning when there are a series of meetings planned. So to mangement-be smart and play ball.

I see Angus the bull statement(further down the thread) and yes sides are getting entrenched. Its a pity things have deteriorated . Perhaps if the IAA can be persuaded to keep their mouths shut for a while and i know Impact dont like talking to the press judging by their form so far then some business can be done in the quiet. I too ,like Angus ,and all staff actually dont want to strike-it just gets very very messy and Angus is right that anyone who has first hand experince of an all out strike would counsel against it. However it is most definitely a case of lack of any progress there is only one way this will end up-in a strike. If there was progress this week I for one would keep my mouth shut and let them get on with it and wait and see what comes out of it but only within a timeframe that would generate results i.e max of a week. No progress in that week then all bets are off-if there is progress then well and good and i think all sides would welcome progress.

We shall wait and see.

Yours as ever

OCK1F

[alwaysmovin]

My worry with the increase of trainees from 24 to 36 is that they will be rushed through or let through the school even though they are not good enough. It has happened before.....How is an already understaffed operation going to train 36 trainees and 15 direct entries.......

With what has been going on for the last few weeks, the morale ruining press releases issued by the IAA and the seemingly unsupportive attitute of the very union that should be supporting the controllers the atmosphere must be absolutely terribe to the point of wondering is it safe to let controllers continually work under these conditions.....

There should be no politics when it comes to safety......but it seems politics is turning an already bad situatuon into a dangerous one:ugh:

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Before this and similar threads I was thinking that my management is :mad:,
but now it seems that they know their job.
we are overstaffed for 100 % , with the highest traffic growth in Europe, with bunch of projects in progress and so on...
My advice to ANSPs all over Europe. You should do next steps in order to solve problems :
-management must possess lack of particular knowledge
-take as much as possible credits and loans from EBRD ( they don't ask anything)
-Future? Who cares about it?
and finally
-uf? it is too late:)

[grr nav]

"Everyone should remember that if there was an incident in the morning, it would be her job to stand up for the controllers involved..."

No it would be the Corporate Communications Managers job to protect the IAA.

I, like many of my ATCO colleagues, have absolutely no doubt that the unfortunate ATCO would be left out to dry.

Now I have absolutely no doubt that IMPACT would leave me swinging too.

All we have is Each other. Stay strong :ok:

[norby]

Better Believe it....
I have never seen any positive press given to controllers.
IAA management must be great at their jobs though as the pencil pushers get their yearly bonuses and company cars and great press so they must really have the whole business thing running smoothly. I'm surprised that they need us at all. Oh wait, i forgot that they need us to earn that €135 milion for them as they cant generate revenue for them selves. silly me ;) If they stop working would anyone including the public notice?
If we stop working..........:E

[SINGAPURCANAC]

My two cents ,
I understand the situation and I would like to give my support for IAA atcos but I also want to say my opinion about strike in ATC.
It'll never work.
Public pressure will be enormous but not towards management . ATCOs will be designated as primary problem. Because you have high salaries and other benefits which is usually untouchable for majority of people.
You wouldn't change management opinion because they believe that everything is OK. how it is OK? yes, it is OK because job is still done. As long as all flight planes are terminated after Missed approach point at your airfield -everything is OK!
Correct me if wrong but you didn't elect(nominate) your management so you wouldn't change it!
Management of union and ATCA always work for management of ANSP.
If you are understaffed it couldn't be changed in a few days,even you take people from LHR,FRA they will need time to plug in. Situation is even worse with local students.
From my point of view the only solution that remains in hands of IAA atcos is refusing overtime. You must choose between higher salary and private life. But it is very sensitive area. Soon or latter IAA atcos will realize that there is too much loans for pay, no one will sell the new BMW and buy FIAT 500, sell flat in Downtown in buy cottage in countryside and so on.
unreasonable wish for money ,leads you to current situation.
Just because of this( and climate of course) South of Europe is better.
I will never be able to buy the newest BMW, but I am working( and my colleagues as well) 144 hours/month- 85-95 hours on frequency- and have 2 months annual leave that is HOLLY BOOK. No one is able to steal it.

[norby]

2 Months AL and 90 hours a month!!!
Any jobs for tower controllers down there?

"Everyone should remember that if there was an incident in the morning, it would be her job to stand up for the controllers involved..."

Ahh the innocence......
Even when a controller has been cleared of any negligence by the AAIU or whoever they are still treated like s**t by management. One incident in Dublin last year (a Class A airprox) was "investigated" by management without interviewing the controllers or showing them play backs. Even though the incident arose from poorly thought out procedures introduced by management the controllers take all the blame in the report.
Make no Mistake Angus if you F**K up the comms manager will be in line with management shovelling s**t on your head. Her Job Is purely to insulate Management from from the press and the public:*:*

[PPRuNe Radar]

I understand the situation and I would like to give my support for IAA atcos but I also want to say my opinion about strike in ATC.
It'll never work.

If the IAA is anything like NATS, it wouldn't need a strike to make things grind to a halt. All it would take in NATS is for all ATCO staff to:

Stop doing voluntary operational duties or selling your leave.

Stop participating in projects if they are not taking place within your rostered hours.

Ensure that any travel time, combined with the meeting or project you are attending, does not exceed your nominal shift time if you had been on duty.

Refuse to undertake any duties which will earn you time off in lieu, make sure they are taking place during part of your rostered hours.

Insist on full manning as per the agreed staffing schedule. If full staffing can't be provided, then you either close sectors, or put in place an appropriate regulation to protect the sector (and yourself). Don't bust a gut like most of us do today to make it work.



The effect will be that projects will be delayed (leading to questions from operators and airlines as promised capacity increases will not be delivered on time), staff shortages will not be covered leading to the operation running at less capacity and probably requiring regulation, and finally, the delays racked up will be firmly attributed to the ANSP involved as staff shortages.

Realistically, this would hurt the airlines. And if they hurt, you can be sure they will be beating a path to the ANSP management and vocally asking them to get things sorted damn quickly.


And none of the above is industrial action, since you will be working exactly the hours you are conditioned to work. Nothing more and nothing less.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

@PPRuNe radar,
Now it is obvious deference between member and moderator.
You explained exactly what I wanted to say.

I hope that it will help to Irish colleagues, but they have to take proactive approach to problems. I can't plug in tomorrow afternoon instead of them.

Any jobs for tower controllers down there?

Only if I get job at places: refer to thread "TOP 5"

[norby]

Not as Bizzarre as closing Dublin and Shannon a dozen times in the last 2 weeks because there are no staffing issues and overtime is unnecessary.....

[baw676]

Amazing how the many night closures of Dublin between 0130-0200 and 0400-0500 never get mentioned by them and by the way i believe it happening again tonight and tomorrow night as well (unless things have changed).

[norby]

Having read the entire thread several things occur to me,
1. There are no bridges named after me

2. The bitterness and vindictiveness of The IAA press releases are a sign of the absolute terror that must be rife in HQ right now. We've lifted up the rock and exposed them to the sunshine and unwelcome attention of the public and the media in a way that they can't control so they lash out venomously in all directions. It's obvious that they have no control, I mean we're doing nothing wrong, unsafe or illegal so they have to slander us and bring in the money issue as it's all they understand.

3. We have excellent public support at the moment, the public are not so stupid as to confuse more staffing with more money, the fact that we as a group are at a financial loss because we won't do overtime is refreshing for them. Most of all, the public need to feel safe and we have the high moral ground on that. Management know this.

4. Whatever solution is negotiated it will depend completely 100% upon our support and goodwill to implement it so we should take this opportunity to stitch them because we will never get this chance again. We cannot allow a repeat of Kilkenny 2003 so we need to put IMPACT in no doubt that their PPP so far has to improve dramatically and never falter again. We must ensure that when this is over that all our concerns are addressed in a manner that is acceptable to us and that sufficient safeguards are built into the system that management never treat us (and by proxy the travelling public) this badly again.

5. Management know this. If I could credit them with any intelligence I would guess that the Slanderous press releases are designed to taunt us intodoing something stupid. WE ARE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS we should be proud of this and we can take anything that these idiots print about us because we know what real pressure is all about. If we deal with this in the professional manner we man our stations with we will beat them. Management know this. Keep the heads up, speak softly and carry a big stick.

6. This is the most Unity and Harmony I've ever known between the 3 stations. Lets keep that up, as a united workforce we have the balance of power in our favour, we must retain that power.

7. There are no statues to me either......

[norby]

Just read Mr. Corrys article in the Herald today.
Unfortunately Mr. Corry seems to think that we are striking because we want to pressure those poor management types into a lucrative overtime deal and dictate staffing levels to our bosses. he even compares us to the dreaded French Air Traffic Controller and calls our refusal to work 60 hour weeks and vote for industrial action "a Disease"
Now, I may accept that management throw insults during a dispute but i will not accept them from a journalist.
Still, on the off chance he reads this (how do i post this link annonymously!!)
I will endeavour to enlighten him.
Firstly, how dare he describe any legitimate industrial action by a group of dedicated professionals whether French or Irish as a disease, that is both inflammatory and I think libellous.


The IAA have been warned by Unions and staff that there was a staffing crisis for years now. IAA refused to hire any extra staff regardless of the need until jan of this year because to hire staff any earlier would wipe out any savings made on the Voluntary retirement scheme. Ironically the IAA are now trying to re hire the people that retired under that scheme because there are no staff to train the new recruits. He states that Iaa manegment saw the shortfall coming so maybe he should ask them why they did nothing about it until now.
He says that the IAA are looking for direct entry controllers. Why are there no vacancy notices on the IAA website for controllers?

Controllers are trying to press home an advantage in negotiating a lucrative overtime deal.
Let me say this in simple English so he understands.
WE DONT WANT TO DO ANY OVERTIME ANY MORE regardless of lucrative deals. We want all the time off we are entitled to, nothing less.
I am sick of coming to work Exhausted and my phone ringing 7 times on each of my days off. Enough.

Only 2% of traffic is handled on overtime
Dublin
Jun '07 - Dec '07 400 odd days covered by call in including numerous occurences of controllers working 2 out of 3 rest days and 1 occasion where someone worked an extra 23 hours in one twist.
Jan 1st '08 til Jan 12 60 call ins
Shannon
92 callins in one month
Is this the kind of service Mr. Corry would like us to return to? The IAA lied Eoghan get over it and ask them why.
The only overtime agreement most of us want is one that limits the amount overtimean individual can do.

Staff are trying to question who decides staffing levels.
Well obviously management are not competent to decide staffing levels so we might as well try.
There are no written or unwritten agreements that say I must attend for overtime as part of my conditions. Again, the IAA lied get over it.

Simple maths
as an employer you have a number of staff ( the exact number is irrelevant)
You need that staff to
provide a service
cover for leave
cover parental leave
cover maternity leave
cover job sharing
cover project work to ensure future safety
cover Admin duties
provide fatigue and meal breaks
cover sick leave.
If in reality
You dont cover any leave or parental leave or fatigue breaks AND you still require your staff to attend for an extra 1800 duties per year you are understaffed. And have been for years. This is not a short term deficit and even if I accepted the IAA's logic I'm not obliged to cover that.

Mr Corry needs to realise that Controllers are human and need normal human things like respect and time with their friends and family.
When was the last time anyone told him he couldn't have a day off for his childs communion or wedding.

ATC is stressful enough when you only have to deal with Aeroplanes.

If he thinks I'm angry wait til the French get him!!!!

[GENEX69]

I am not surprised to read these comments coming from the inmates of the IAA. I find it interesting that they are exactly the same as those I heard for 35 years when I worked as an ATCO. The leopard has not and cannot change the spots.... Have a look at the Staff Attitude survey carried out in 1996 and surmise what it might contain if the same was done today - scathing management, the old boys club, ignoring the company's most important asset (ATCOs) and ensuring the corporate image projected is not tainted by the 'real' truth being told. The earlier comment about a near-miss or mid-air and the result, spoke volumes about the expected response - think back to how ATCOs were treated during and after the AirForce 1 near miss...
IAA ATCOs have the courage to follow your instincts with this one. It is not about revenge it is about ensuring that the profession is shown the respect it deserves and the place of the ATCO is protected. The job is not getting any easier in Irish airspace as those of you working there know only too well. This could be the tip of a very sharp and cold iceberg of change that may not be palatable and may I say, possibly not SAFE either....

Go neiri and bothar libh a cairdi.

[norby]

Am I to understand that you won't be leaving your well earned retirement to give your wonderful former employers a dig out in their time of need?
How dare you indulge in wildcat industrial action by refusing to attend for extra duties!!

[spanador]

Having read all the posts here and been frustrated by the slow pace of progress in all staffing issues, (and astounded by the fast pace of system and procedural/airspace changes), It seems this issue is set to come to a head in the very near future unless............!

It might be too much to ask, but for all ATCOs (and management) would not the first and most welcome step be, for the IAA to ADMIT to a staff shortage?

The recruitment of 36 trainees, the presence of an overtime requirement, and the requests to retirees to return, all acknowlege this fact! All the IAA has to do is now is admit it publicly!

I believe that if this was done, then it would calm the situation considerably, and allow for a reasonable discussion on how best to rectify the situation and move forward.

At least then we would see that the Iaa management live in the real world!:confused:

[thorisgod]

Of course the IAA live in the real world. That's why they are getting away with everything. If they were as idealistic as us they would be corporate doormats.
There are a lot of peoples jobs in and around Shannon being affected this, hauliers for example, whose future depends on an already unsteady airport. There is bad feeling in the public domain, some because people think their jobs are at risk, some because people think their holidays they booked are at risk. The IAA is doing its best to make sure this resentment is pointed at us. Lying in the National media about us when it's their shoddy cost-driven employment strategies that caused this.
No one has refused to turn up for rostered duty or to sit in a position they didn't like. No one has even declared a work to rule. That alone would sink them. All we are doing is keeping our days off to ourselves.
Have those who never do overtime been engaging in industrial action for years now?
Would you like to start your weeks work and finish it 92.5 hours later having done 5 attendances with a gross time of 43.5 hours? That's the equivalent percentage of a 9 to 5'er starting on a Monday morning 9AM and having done 5 days work done by Friday morning 7AM. And then they want you to come in on your day off when you haven't seen your family for 4 days.
Some one made the analogy today "It's like working in a lighthouse." No one would know you were dead until the boat comes back in 4 or 5 days.
The dreaded ballot was a show of solidarity that has the IAA troubled. They have re-worded their Press releases from "Strike" to "Industrial Action" to "Disruptive Action". What's next? "Unhelpful?" Try "Dissatisfied but still working big Eejits"
We want this sorted.
We know it's going to need an interim solution until the new cadets are operational. But who wants to deal with some one who is stabbing them in the back?
NUFF SAID!

[DFC]

Is there a staff shortage in Shannon Tower?

Two controllers Air and Ground with more to provide breaks required on duty required to handle 12 flights over 3 hours.

If the IAA got it's act together and sorted out such over-staffing requirements then how many controllers does that free up if the whole system was looked at. It will not solve the problems described but one can't help feeling that the IAA could start down the road by looking at more realistic staffing levels in the quiet places.

Would ATCOs object to such adjustments?

Flow control is not a bad word - they simply have the options limited "no regulation" or "zero rate". ;)

Regards,

DFC

[norby]

As we have discussed earlier Shannon tower is not to be maligned because of traffic levels. If the IAA got off of their useless A***s and gave us real working procedures that were safe and effective we might be able to live with one person sectors/ towers but in effect the only safety net for controllers are 2 man positions. If we agreed to reducing staffing below the agreed minimums management would shaft us if anything went wrong. Management are so blinkered that efficiency is only measured in terms of cost. The shambles that are the MATS manuals bear testimony to this. In the real world we are run by accountants, when we need positive and creative management to deal (positively) with the growing change in Irish ATC we have no one. Every passenger in Irish airspace deserves the best ATC service we can provide irrespective of the traffic levels or earning capacity of any given station.
ironically Tower staff shortages in Shannon are closing the airport whilst radar staff shortages in DUblin have been closing that airport.
Stay focussed we are the good guys

[DFC]

we might be able to live with one person sectors/ towers but in effect the only safety net for controllers are 2 man positions

Other airports in Europe with traffic levels greather than Shannon and Cork combined seem to meet the European and ICAO safety standards but do not need Air/Ground open at all times.

How many staff would be available to cover breaks and sickness etc if Cork and Shannon operated combined Air and Ground every day. Would overtime still be required?

Regards,

DFC

[irishatco]

Other airports in Europe with traffic levels greather than Shannon and Cork combined seem to meet the European and ICAO safety standards but do not need Air/Ground open at all times.

How many staff would be available to cover breaks and sickness etc if Cork and Shannon operated combined Air and Ground every day. Would overtime still be required?

The IAA made a couple of commercial decisions in the last few years that have altered the way that Shannon Tower operates.
They removed the assistant from the Tower, and made the requirement 2 ATCOs H24. Their requirement!
They also made ATCOs lose their tower ratings by refusing to train them in new procedures ( this meant less recurrent training costs ), thus squeezing the number of tower ratings to the minimum.

Dont think that in Shannon its just a lack of staff in the tower, its everywhere. It is possible to have a full staff complement on in ATC on any given day, but that does not mean that there is a full complement of ratings for all positions. The tower does not operate on a stand alone roster. Controllers that work in the ACC are rotated through the tower to man the positions.

This does not arise in cork, as it is not 2 ATCOs H24 in their tower

Of course a 1 ATCO tower would require less people to run, but that extra person would be required elsewhere.

The actual number of ATCOs in Shannon is about 140, however, the actual number on the roster at any time is about 99. all of the rest are on projects,instructing,courses, sick leave, maternity etc, not to mention the lucky few that are able to take annual leave. Go figure!

[DFC]

I think that it is clear to those in the business that the IAA have made poor decisions regarding both the staffing levels required to provide a service and having the staff in place to meet their own (over the top in some cases) requirements.

Part of the process to solve the problem has to be a rationalisation of over the top staffing levels and H24 Air / Ground at Shannon is probably the best example.

If the IAA (wrongly) require 100 controllers at any time to staff 50 positions plus more staff to provide breaks then if it is found that 25 of those positions could be operated (are operated in more busy units) on a single person basis a step should be made towards more realistic staffing levels and avoiding zero rate flow control on some positions.

However, going from a rate of 2 movements per ATCO per hour to zero is not much of a change ;)

To be taken seriously in this situation, ATCOs and their representatives should be not only pressing the IAA for more staff but should be pressing for more realistic staffing levels which will put the current staff to better use.

One does not have to be an accountant to see that more staff = more costs. But inefficent working practices (over staffing requirements) = more cost also.

One does not want the public perception to be of an overstaffed ex civil service workforce who are not worked very hard calling for more staff to avoid having to work half as hard as other ATCOs elsewhere in Europe.

The public needs to be properly briefed regarding the true situation and what ATCOs propose to change it - not just the give us more people or we will close you down argument.

Regards,

DFC

[GENEX69]

DFC,
you seem to be unaware of the facts. Shannon operates single person operations frequently and I would estimate at a much higher rate than an average of 2 movements/hour - not referring to the TWR. Over the last decades the ATCOs have kept the operation running both cost effectively and safely even in the face of gross mismanagement at times. I remember only too well during the 80s when the amount of untaken leave was in the thousands of days over a 24 month period and the end result was a 'deal' negotiated by the union to buy back these days at a single rate - NOT at an overtime rate thus saving the DoT thousands at the time and not to mention hiding the staff shortage that prevailed then.
The facts are quite simple:
1. There is a shortage of operational controllers in the IAA.
2. This is as a direct result of miscalculation of the resource requirements by Local management in both Shanon and Dublin (not sure about Cork!).
3. ATCOs working overtime should be an exception, not a given, to keep the ship afloat.
4. The IAA press releases are, to say the least, a reflection of the same arrogance that has led them to this mess.
5. It's true that they have written to retirees offering 22 weeks work, one day leave/two weeks worked at a rate of 305 euro/day - forgot to tell us that their ATCOs cost them approximately 700/day. So, once again trying to do it on the cheap (bells ringing... pay peanuts you get monkeys!)
6. There is no immediate short term solution and the ATCOs will inevitably support the IAA in retrieving this situation but not before a lot of pain and bad press and the SoS from management.
7. Somewhere at the far side one or two of the union executive will get a susprise promotion or plumb job!
8 The IAA management have been and I suspect always will be minimalists but put on a good show (e.g. new system implemented on time and within budget but no mention of the absolute mess they made of it and other facts which cannot be mentioned but have a very close look at the MoR records since the new gear went in- need I say more?)
9. The public care about getting off on time and getting back when they should and beyond that not really interested so since when did good press make interesting press? I have yet to see an article or press release from the IAA stating how wonderful a job their workforce do but yet you read reports from arsicons who cannot even state the correct titles of the ATCO so obviously they have little interest in providing 'good' press.
10. If I was still there I would definitely take a leaf out of M O Leary's book and go for lots of shock stuff even to the point of mentioning the names of the incompetents that have screwed this up (not mentioning EB, PR, MW and LK and their bottom warmers).

Ahhhh I miss the ould place sometimes!:)

[irishatco]

One does not want the public perception to be of an overstaffed ex civil service workforce who are not worked very hard calling for more staff to avoid having to work half as hard as other ATCOs elsewhere in Europe.
:ugh::ugh::ugh:

Are you for real? Honestly? No, really?

This quote only demonstrates your lack of awareness of the problem for the Irish Air Traffic Service, provided by the IAA. Thats fair enough. You dont have enough information to know about this situation.

For the last time.......

THIS SITUATION HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE STAFFING LEVELS AT SHANNON AIRPORT. IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH STAFFING LEVELS WITHIN THE AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES OF THE IAA.

Do your homework, and then maybe you'll see how inane and unhelpful your comments are becoming, despite, i believe your best intentions

Here's 2 questions for you.

Do you know if there was a full staff compliment on in Shannon, or was it that there was not an extra tower rated person to be found, at the time of the closures?

Do you think that if there had been another tower rated controller on in the ACC, that they would have been sent to the tower so that the Airport would not have had to close, and that the staff shortfall would have been made elsewhere, without the publicity?

Any ideas?

[enoughisenough]

a couple of points

1. the atc staff are in a huge position of strength once we stick together...99% not bad so far :ok:

2. management have lost the respect of the staff ever since renaging on the Kilkenny agreement not to mention recent wildcat allegations.

3.when a senior member of management predicted an economic downturn in aug 2003 he was very poorly informed.:confused:

4.the treatment of anyone who has an incident is a disgrace

5.scp 6 took 5 years to graduate

6.no controllers employed since 2002 despite huge increase in traffic and taking NOTA on board

7.management have still to sort out tax returns for atc workers sent abroad dating back to 2002....yes...6 years ago:D

It is time for the accountants to stop counting the money and start doing what they are very well paid to do...ie provide a safe service for all aircaft in Irish airspace and enough controllers to do it!!

[grr nav]

:{:\:mad::eek::uhoh::{:yuk::{:(

My impression of the Director of Human resources as he receives the notice of industrial action from IMPACT today

[goodworker]

With reference to Mr Corry's article, if he thinks comparing Irish ATCOs with their French counterparts would ever be taken as a negative, he seriously misjudges his readership.

The French approach has always received yearning, longing glances from our more cowering, apathetic nation.

And how has this 'disease' affected the French nation? Decent standard of living, commendable secular education system and a health service we can only dream of. This is one 'disease' I would like to see in our hospitals.

Anyway, I digress. To be even mentioned on the same written page as the French is the highest of complements.

Vive la Revolution


Staff rationalisation is an ongoing process. However, IAA management have always had the good sense to build contingency into their staffing arrangements, and ATCOs have come to expect no less.

If an ATCO goes belly-up, the control element of the situation is forfeited and there must be some way of making this situation safe again. The IAA have taken the most obvious route, by not staffing less than two of any one rating. I would be genuinely interested in the contingency procedures of locations that staff to a factor of one.

In some quarters I have heard the term 'calculated risk', being bandied around. But who has done these calculations? and who takes the risk?

[baw676]

Can't wait for the next press statement post Strike notice letter being handed to them later today. I imagine they will throw all sorts at us.

Especially as they will want to muddy the waters even futher for joe public into thinking that we are over paid and under worked and indeed "Over staffed".

Simple equation

36 new controllers(50% more than planned) + 20 odd direct entry + ask back VER's + 1800 overtime duties in 2 stations in 2007 = NO STAFFING ISSUE.:ugh:

Well handled IAA mismanagement:D.

[norby]

Lets hope IMPACT get it right this time and start defending us publicly.

[DFC]

irish atco,

Do you think that if there had been another tower rated controller on in the ACC, that they would have been sent to the tower so that the Airport would not have had to close, and that the staff shortfall would have been made elsewhere, without the publicity?

To be honnest, I am mistified really.

The tower was closed from 2100 to 0000. 3 Hours.

Is it true to say that at 2100 the two ATCOs in the tower and those that could provide rest breaks went home and that no other ATCOs came in to replace them until midnight? Or was it the situation that the ACC was so busy with split sectors that the staff who could have gone to the tower were too busy keeping the ACC sectors split.......at that time of night?

Where did the ATCO's who kept the Air and Ground positions open throughout the night and those that provided them with rest breaks appear from at midnight?


What time are the shift changes in Shannon?

Really strugguling to understand the IAA system where ATCOs disappear to ??? and suddenly appear from ??? at Shannon 3 hours later rested and able to continue a service until the next shift arrives????

Regards,

DFC

[norby]

Hi DFC
I imagine that it's all rather simple really.
At 9pm one of the tower rated controllers finished their duties and went home. As there were no tower rated staff in the ACC the tower closed.
This is IAA Policy on staffing
The traffic levels in Shannon are irrelevant because IAA policy states that there must be 2 tower staff present at all times. Even if Shannon was quiet at the time you must remember that you only need 2 planes on freq for a mid air or one van on the field for a runway incursion and if that happened the IAA would F:mad:K you over so fast for operating outside procedure.

I don't know about Euroland or anywhere else but in Ireland the SMC also has to do ramp control, clearancedelivery and at night the atca functions also, lumping that onto AMC would make things unfeasible very quickly ANYWHERE.

Stop wailing on about Shannon, exactly the same thing happened in Dublin and Heathrow last month.
Its ATC staff complying with IAA policy that brought about the stoppages and if the policies need to be updated then thats what we pay HR and SRD for.

I'm a Dublin Controller but I've worked in Shannon and know how messy it gets. The problem as stated before is S:mad:T mangement maybe if ours were as proactive and enlightened or even as competent as those in the other airports you mentioned then we wouldn't be in this mess now.

[alwaysmovin]

Perhaps there were no tower controllers available on the first night shift that came in at 9.30 and they had to wait for tower controllers from the second night shift to come in at 12. I think shannon lost some tower rated people when shannon app went to Dublin last year (another well thouhgt IAA plan) so maybe there was just no other tower ratings on. Just specualtion on my part. Not everyone has the same ratings in shannon . Low area radar and upper radar are two seperate ratings and some people have only one rating so it makes rostering a bit different to units elsewhere. Again this is the managemnet's decision.

[grr nav]

Air Traffic Controllers Date: Monday 11 February, 2008 News Summary:http://www.impact.ie/iopen24/pub/images/pixel_trans.gifMembers of IMPACT’s Air Traffic Controllers branch concluded a ballot for industrial action on Friday 8th of February. Air Traffic Control Officers (ATCOs) voted by a majority of 99% in favour of industrial action, up to and including strike action.

News Content:http://www.impact.ie/iopen24/pub/images/pixel_trans.gifNotice of this action has not yet been served on the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA), as internal discussions within the union are still taking place on the most appropriate next steps to bring the current dispute to a conclusion. 14 days notice of such action is required by law.
Talks are scheduled to resume at the Labour Relations Commission on the 19th of February.
Following last night’s temporary closure of Shannon Airport by the IAA, IMPACT trade union, on behalf of Irish Air Traffic Control Officers , wish to make the following points of clarification to the background of the current dispute:

There is no contractual requirement on Air Traffic Control Officers (ATCOs) to work overtime. This is because it is generally recognised as best practice that the work of ATCOs should not involve overtime.
Due to the shortage of staff dating back to 2001, ATCOs in Dublin, Shannon and Cork airports are regularly required to provide an Air Traffic Control service without the agreed number of ATCOs on duty.
It is only when the number of ATCOs falls below a safe number that ATCOs have requested the introduction of restrictions to air traffic movements. This request was made to protect the ATCOs on duty and the traveling public.
In order to minimise these occurrences, ATCOs have provided additional cover by working periods of overtime on rest days. The ATCO branch of IMPACT maintains that such ad hoc arrangements are unsustainable, and that the Air Traffic Control System has become over dependent on these arrangements. Such arrangements can result in an ATCO working up to 50.4 hours per week.
Until such times as the staffing levels are increased, an agreed and equitable system of standby and overtime needs to be put in place, but only as part of a series of interim measures.
The current talks between the ATCO branch of IMPACT and the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) are aimed at achieving agreement on an acceptable interim system of standby and overtime.
The staffing compliment still urgently needs to be increased. 75 trainee ATCOs have been recruited by the IAA; 36 of these recruits will complete their training and join the duty roster in late 2009.
In recent weeks, in order to facilitate the conciliation talks, under the aegis of the Labour Relations Commission (LRC), a number of ATCOs agreed to provide additional duty cover, on a voluntary basis. This was a necessary measure, allowing members of the ATCO branch executive to attend the talks, and to ensure minimum disruption as talks continued.http://www.impact.ie/iopen24/pub/newsdesk_archive.php?archive=1&page=1



WELCOME TO THE FIGHT IMPACT :D

We await todays press release keenly:E

[grr nav]

Last Updated: 12/02/2008 17:48
Air traffic controllers serve strike notice


Air traffic controllers today issued two weeks formal notice of strike action to the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) in a move that could ground flights coming in and out of the country.
Over the weekend the controllers, who are members of the Impact trade union, voted by a majority of 99 per cent in favour of the industrial action.
In a statement issued today Impact said the notice included a ban on overtime to take effect from February 26th and work-to-rule with further details being specified at a later date.
Impact also issued preliminary notice of temporary work stoppages which would take effect from February 26th if the dispute has not been resolved following discussions between the two sides at the Labour Relations Commission (LRC).
The controllers are essentially in dispute with the IAA about short-staffing and the amount of overtime they are being asked to do as a result.
Last Saturday a dozen flights were cancelled at Shannon Airport after the controllers refused to work overtime. There was also disruption at Shannon earlier last Wednesday night and last month 32 flights at Dublin airport were also grounded by the dispute.
Since then there have been a number of hearings before the LRC in an attempt to resolve the dispute and talks resume again at the commission next Tuesday, February 19th.


http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0212/breaking81.htm


IAA STATEMENT

News & Press Releases

Date: February 12 2008

Headline: Disruptive Action by Air Traffic Controllers to continue


The Irish Aviation Authority received official notification from IMPACT Trade Union this afternoon that, following a ballot, Air Traffic Controller members are to take official industrial action as follows:

An overtime ban to take effect from the 26th February 2008
Work stoppages to take effect from a date no earlier than 26th February 2008, with at least seven days notice of the specific time and date of a stoppage. This will be issued after the Labour Relations Commission (LRC) hearing on 19th February 2008 if the dispute is not resolved.
Work to rule - details to be specified in the near future.The Authority is disappointed that IMPACT has resorted to serving notice of industrial action while a process in the Labour Relations Commission to resolve various issues at the heart of this dispute is ongoing. Moreover, the IMPACT action is in blatant breach of the current national agreement, Towards 2016.
The industrial action, particularly work stoppages, by Air Traffic Controllers, members of IMPACT, will affect all en-route and terminal air traffic services in and out of the country. This has the potential to cause major disruptions to airlines and to the travelling public. The Authority will continue to keep its airline customers and the travelling public informed of the effects of these actions.
This industrial action proposed by Air Traffic Controllers is in furtherance of a significantly enhanced extra attendance payment and changes to rostered attendances which are two elements of a package of other issues where agreement has mostly been reached. In such circumstances the action now proposed is by any standards excessive.

END

http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=448

[ock1f]

It is very good to see IMPACT stand up to the the plate , and there press release while not as strong as I would have liked, it was businesslike and set out the legitimate points of view of staff. While i dont see this dispute as a "fight" as such they are most welcome for rowing in behind their members in this dispute.

In response to todays serving of industrial action notice i have just read the IAA response :

Date: February 12 2008

Headline: Disruptive Action by Air Traffic Controllers to continue


The Irish Aviation Authority received official notification from IMPACT Trade Union this afternoon that, following a ballot, Air Traffic Controller members are to take official industrial action as follows:

An overtime ban to take effect from the 26th February 2008
Work stoppages to take effect from a date no earlier than 26th February 2008, with at least seven days notice of the specific time and date of a stoppage. This will be issued after the Labour Relations Commission (LRC) hearing on 19th February 2008 if the dispute is not resolved.
Work to rule - details to be specified in the near future.The Authority is disappointed that IMPACT has resorted to serving notice of industrial action while a process in the Labour Relations Commission to resolve various issues at the heart of this dispute is ongoing. Moreover, the IMPACT action is in blatant breach of the current national agreement, Towards 2016.
The industrial action, particularly work stoppages, by Air Traffic Controllers, members of IMPACT, will affect all en-route and terminal air traffic services in and out of the country. This has the potential to cause major disruptions to airlines and to the travelling public. The Authority will continue to keep its airline customers and the travelling public informed of the effects of these actions.
This industrial action proposed by Air Traffic Controllers is in furtherance of a significantly enhanced extra attendance payment and changes to rostered attendances which are two elements of a package of other issues where agreement has mostly been reached. In such circumstances the action now proposed is by any standards excessive.

END

I have to say i found it quite funny. Especially the last line about "our excessive standards of action" Wow i never knew that working all the hours in my contract was excessive action. I never knew that having a day off was excessive action. I never knew that having a break after 2 hours and splitting sectors when they reached their max capacity was excessive action. Im laughing as i read the IAAs statement. But having said that ,there was no overt poison and vitriol in these ones and quite considerably different in tone.

It is quite obvious that the IAA have had a chance to "re-asses" their figures and ask their line managers what the real story is and are now really worried. It is obvious to everyone that the LRC (if they get involved) cannot recommend that the staff do compulsory overtime, so that avenue of escape is closed to them.

To my colleagues i would say now is the time to stay united and press home our advantage. We are now in a situation that obviously needs to be improved on and we should seize this oppurtunity to improve or rosters,staffing and other professional issues. We sholud do this by staying smart and playing it cool. We take it step by step and give each step a decent time to show some improvement. If at the end of each step there is no improvement then we move it up a gear.However we dont want to go off like like a canon pushing for unrealsitic things -just the big things for now like staffing.

From this thread and from speaking to my colleagues it is crystal clear how angry ,hurt and betrayed controllers feel by their own company-and remember what did we do to deserve this? All we did was say no thanks i want a day off-which eventual exposed the mismanagement of the company. I know of controllers who have been abused publicly in social settings because of the perceived industrial action/walking off the job slander the IAA put out in the public domain. In a fair world the IAA would issue an apologyto their staff.

Now an apology is not going to happen-ever.

However they really do need to build bridges with their staff. If they can restore the relationship as good as they can spout ****e and slander about their staff then we(the company) will be fine again. The best we can hope for is that they reach an agreement thats acceptable to both sides that doesnt involve either side lossing face PUBLICLY-remember perception is everything.
I had a converstaion today with a jeweller who i know. He asked about the 'strike'-I was only too glad to inform him about the real story.When i told him of an incidence where i had just finished an extra duty of 11hrs and 15 mins which finished at 815am and that at 10 am i got a call asking me if i would come in at noon for another duty? He was shocked that we would be asked to work such hours and it still be considered safe.

Obviously i declined the second extra duty but perhaps i should present myself for punishment as i have obviously engaged in excessive action,wildcat action by not agreeing to work all the hours in the day and really i should be punished for that. :ugh::ugh:

I have bitten my tongue about about DFC posts. You are persistant but so uninformed. If i may say that you seem to have a pre-conceived idea about the whole shannon tower staffing/closure issue and you dont appear to understand or pay attention to the post that are trying to inform you.

So DFC ,just for you one last time: Shannon tower has 2 controllers. NO assistant at all at anytime . After a certain hour in the evening ( i think 7pm-ish) the 2 controllers are self-relieving. That means that IF and only IF its quiet then one heads downstairs for a cup of tea and a break. They are contactable by the other controller at all times . When that break is over the favour is returned to the other-again only IF its quiet enough. There is no-one else to provide braeks full stop. the APP staff are at the other side of the country and are not tower rated. Shannon center is 15 to 20 mins away but on the occasion in question there were NO ( that zero) rated tower staff in the center. The center and tower have the minimum staff at this hour of the evening-nothing spare. The next team of controllers do not arrive until midnight. So 1 controller doing three jobs with no back-up, no contingency, no help, and no break for 3 hours while the job of 3 positions with two frequencys is not on. I dont care how they do it elsewhere -thats the rules here so thats that- ok

Hope that helps :)

Now thats cleared up- i say support each other, dont let the opputunity slip from aour grasp and play it smart. We are nearly there in affecting change for the better.

Yours as ever

OCK1F

[norby]

Lads IMHO we should keep the overtime Out of any Official Industrial action.
It's the thing that hurts them most and when the Labour court orders us to go for a chat it will be on the condition that ALL official action stops and that means we have to comply with call ins in order to keep the talks going and avoid management crying wildcat if we "choose" not to do overtime
Work to rule YES
Strike if all else fails but no official ban on overtime as it'll undo all of our good work so far.:D:D:D

[baw676]

Norby i agree but there is still nothing stopping you as an individual at any time from saying NO to overtime. It is VOLUNTARY. By getting a call asking for you to do it doesn't mean you have to. I know there is those who will at first opportunity do overtime but thats up to them if they want to go against the will of the masses thats there choice.

A big hand to all the guys and girls across all three stations for standing up for each other and finally doing something that will hopefully improve our lot.

:D

[Yahweh]

"A big hand to all the guys and girls across all three stations for standing up for each other and finally doing something that will hopefully improve our lot"

It's a real pity its not like that all the time :(
Hopefully this might bring an end to the constant oneupmanship and my station is better than yours argument that I have observed through my time in ATC.

Although I sincerely doubt it :{

Anyway enough of that rant, now that Impact is on board let's get this party started :E

[norby]

Angus
You Are missing the point completely...
Whether or not you do overtime is up to you full stop.
If an official overtime ban is brought in, then you have no choice.
The Labour Court demand that All industrial actions cease as a precursor to any talks.
Therefore you must attend for overtime and if you don't management will run to the labour court and the press and claim non compliance and wildcat action to derail any negotiations.

Either way the only way overtime remains voluntary is if it stays out of the official industrial action scenario.

I, like most other ATCO's enjoy the "rewards" of the odd bit of overtime and would like to continue but I would also like the time off to enjoy that spending power.
Read the complete thread and LISTEN the issues here are way bigger than payment for overtime, withdrawing overtime is purely the way we choose to highlight those issues.
No industrial conflict is ever going to be easy but Angus is right about one thing, we are doing this to protect our selves and our profession from the depredations of bad managers. So, lets look out for each other, a little zeal is good but fanaticism is always bad

[baw676]

Thank you Norby thats what i meant.

[COMICALIAM]

IF anyone is in any doubt about the IAA's obsession with MONEY, COST SAVING ,PENNYPINCHING , and their blatant disregard for safety and their staff.....just take a look at where they have placed their PRESS RELEASE....... not under SAFETY REGULATION and not under
AIR TRAFFIC SERVICES AND TECHNOLOGY. OH NO NO NO......
FINANCIAL AND CORPORATE
speaks volumes:D

[norby]

Thats only because they had to take down the Lies and B**ls**t section after the parent company F****A F**L complained about copyright infringement

[savagecabbage]

A comment more directed at ATCOs outside the IAA - especially those who are wondering where all this leaves them if they were considering direct entry positions with the IAA. I think the LAST thing this action was intended to be was some kind of 'money spinner' as the IAA 'Spinmonkeys' keep implying - we want more staff on the boards period !! We would dearly love 20 direct-entries to materialise in the coming months :ok:. We the staff want it, the union want it and now even belatedly the myopics in head office seem to want it. So I say to you - GET YOUR CVs IN !! You will be welcomed with open arms by anyone with an ounce of sense :D

For my part .... I severly doubt the IAA's ability to recruit those kinds of numbers - even if they are humiliated into a proper recruitment campaign .... look at the competition out there , where would you go ?? :rolleyes:

[COMICALIAM]

IAA Press Release 13/2/08
IAA's Director of HUMAN RESOURCES now gaining the upper hand in this war of attrition with it's Air Traffic Controllers

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=s27Oq5ot0ZI:ok:

[baw676]

I fear we have lost the propaganda war !

How about a direct plea to Prime Minister Bush to invade HQ for us and that they can keep any oil discovered in EB's office.:rolleyes:

[norby]

I don't think we'll find any oil but maybe there will be huge reserves of natural gas found as a by product of the bull**** that streams through HQ!!

[DFC]

Which is it?

At 9pm one of the tower rated controllers finished their duties and went home. As there were no tower rated staff in the ACC the tower closed.
This is IAA Policy on staffing
The traffic levels in Shannon are irrelevant because IAA policy states that there must be 2 tower staff present at all times. Even if Shannon was quiet at the time you must remember that you only need 2 planes on freq for a mid air or one van on the field for a runway incursion and if that happened the IAA would FK you over so fast for operating outside procedure.

I don't know about Euroland or anywhere else but in Ireland the SMC also has to do ramp control, clearancedelivery and at night the atca functions also, lumping that onto AMC would make things unfeasible very quickly ANYWHERE.

or is it;

After a certain hour in the evening ( i think 7pm-ish) the 2 controllers are self-relieving. That means that IF and only IF its quiet then one heads downstairs for a cup of tea and a break. They are contactable by the other controller at all times . When that break is over the favour is returned to the other-again only IF its quiet enough. There is no-one else to provide braeks full stop.

Are you now saying that just because there was not an ATCO drinking tea downstairs an international airport was closed.

The IAA really have to change their excess staffing levels otherwise I fear that 100 new people will simply be used to gaive a belts, braces and bailer twine system of 3 controllers watching every position.

Regards,

DFC

[Yahweh]

Just out of curiosity DFC,

You have mentioned that in many european airports they operate a system of one controller in the tower. You have also indicated that we should do likewise. Now my question is this, if your one man tower controller were to have let's say a heart attack, god forbid :sad:, what would happen with regards to airport movements? Would there be another controller on hot standby? Are there two controllers who relieve each other, one on duty one on lunch? I would just like this clarified.

There are two starting night shifts in Shannon. The first night starts at 9, 2 controllers in the tower, and the second one starts at midnight.

The reason that shannon was closed was quite simple although you do seem to have a problem grasping it :rolleyes:

At 9.00pm there was only one tower controller to cover the position until midnight. Now despite going against company policy which requires two mandatory and despite the number of actual aircraft movements between 9 and midnight which is irrelevant, if that one controller were to have a mishap and were unable to do their job, who would take over?

You seem to be quite hung up on this tower issue. Maybe you should suggest to your own management to get two controllers in the tower. Or maybe your happy with the way it works in your neck of the woods and in that case I'm happy for you :ok:. But frankly the fact that we have two controllers in our tower and you don't is a very small part of our problem, and unless you come over here and see the situation for yourself than your unhelpful comments ain't worth ****... :E

[alwaysmovin]

DFC I can't decide if you can't read or are purposely trying to irritate everybody. Your point has been made... shannon tower may not always be busy but you can't leave one controller there without a break on their own to do ground ,air and assistant.......as has been pointed out to you a few times already .....There is no overstaffing in shannon- quite the oppisite. I'm sure if staffing the tower was costing the IAA anymore than they could get away with they would have changed it by now. However the situation in the center is a very real problem with not enough people being available to give adequate fatigue breaks (as required by law) and controllers working illegal amounts of time in position.

Your constant posting on here about overstaffing is pointless unless you have some hidden agenda. It also detracts greatly from the problem at hand.

If you think your points are genuinely valid, write an email to the IAA but stop harping on to the people on here -many of whom have been keeping a very porly organised system afloat for a lot longer than they should have been.

If as stated quite a number of times aready you think shannon is so bloody quiet then obviously closing it down for a hour or 2 should not be such a big problem should it....:ugh:

[norby]

Jesus DFC
If it only takes 2 tower controllers going sick to close Heathrow (the worlds busiest international airport) for 4 hours then whats the problem with Shannon closing when the staffing falls below minimum there?
Why don't you apply for the direct entry intake into the IAA and then maybe you will begin to understand.......

As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions......
ignore any further posts he's just looking to tick us off

[Handover]

Another thing DFC, if it's company policy to have 2 controllers in the tower at all times it is also no doubt a stipulation of their insurance. If a controller was to agree to man the tower on his own when two controllers are the requirement, HE/SHE is liable for any claim consequently made against the company because the insurance would be declared null and void and responsibility would transfer to the accepting party( at least in this jurisdiction it would). Things a little clearer now?

[beamwidth]

It would appear that DFC is getting up everyones nose at this stage.

If you look at his profile and also some of the posts he's made, you'll find the following

1. he's a private pilot in the uk,

2. he likes to post a lot

3. in the main, his posts offer his ( often uninformed ) opinion of lots of topics, but solutions to few or none of them

4. he likes to post a lot

5. If you ignore him he'll move onto some other thread, and annoy them there.

So, if you dont engage him, he'll p*ss off sooner rather that later

Simple really

[DFC]

If you look at his profile and also some of the posts he's made, you'll find the following

1. he's a private pilot in the uk,

Wrong. :D

My posts offer my opinion. Your posts offer your opinion. No problem there.

If you want to know why I am interested it is that I am a customer affected by the closure(s). I don't place fault with the ATCO's but with the IAA and I think that they need to get a grip with regard to staffing. If Waterford, Kerry, Galway, Knock, Sligo and Donegal can operate with only 1 combined approach/air/ground/delivery on duty at a time there must be an Irish solution to the problem.

As for my experience of the matters - well I was there when that famous statement - "to recruit controllers just go to Kerry with a steak on the end of a long stick" was uttered. A long time ago but there will be a few of you who remember that statement. :D

Perhaps if I grow tired of flying, I will sign-up. Seems to suit those more accustomed to falling asleep in the chipmunk during basic training. :D

Getting back to the issue, there sems to be two opinions on the issue;

You have also indicated that we should do likewise. Now my question is this, if your one man tower controller were to have let's say a heart attack, god forbid , what would happen with regards to airport movements?

Ask Bournemouth. They had a lone ATCO break a leg some time ago going down the steps in the tower to make a cuppa. I am talking of lone ATCO in this sense as being the one doing Tower and Approach. In other words no distant approach radar controller to handle the zone traffic, missed approaches etc etc

I am not trying to make a point, I am trying to find out which of the following is correct;

if it's company policy to have 2 controllers in the tower at all times it is also no doubt a stipulation of their insurance. If a controller was to agree to man the tower on his own when two controllers are the requirement, HE/SHE is liable for any claim consequently made against the company because the insurance would be declared null and void and responsibility would transfer to the accepting party( at least in this jurisdiction it would).

or

After a certain hour in the evening ( i think 7pm-ish) the 2 controllers are self-relieving. That means that IF and only IF its quiet then one heads downstairs for a cup of tea and a break

If the first is correct then the second one says that Shannon operates on a requirement for controllers to breach the comanies rules whcih must be part of the approval.

--------

No-one is going to stand for being the only tower rating on duty trying to deal with an emergency on their own.

So the ATCO's at Waterford, Kerry, Galway, Knock, Sligo and Donegal can handle an emergency (have handled emergencies) while doing both Tower and Approach. At Shannon, where there is in addition Approach Radar provided by another controller, the Tower controller would be unable to cope?

As a customer, I can not see the rationalle behind such differences.

I don't think that the Public would either.

Regards,

DFC

[Yahweh]

"Ask Bournemouth. They had a lone ATCO break a leg some time ago going down the steps in the tower to make a cuppa. I am talking of lone ATCO in this sense as being the one doing Tower and Approach. In other words no distant approach radar controller to handle the zone traffic, missed approaches etc etc"

And I'm sure you will enlighten us with your vast knowledge in ATC matters as to what happened when the afforemetioned controller broke his leg. Surely the airport did'nt remain open for the aircraft to guide themselves in, god forbid that would ever happen :ugh:


DFC, unless you have actually worked as a controller for the IAA and have experience in these matters then your opinion which you are perfectly entitled to is inaccurate and based on your little understanding of a complex issue. You must think that you came up with the idea by yourself and your gonna solve this problem for us before you move onto your next challenge.

So let me enlighten you, reducing the staffing in Shannon Tower to one controller would have a negligible impact on our staffing problem. The amount of controllers free for other positions would not even stretch into double figures. The IAA would have done it long ago if it saved them a few bob. Our staffing issues go well beyond this. It also seems they go well beyond your powers of comprehension :rolleyes:

My suggestion is that you actually come into a centre and take a look at what's going on before you start posting crap. Typical left seat drivers, I have very little time for them.

So stick to trying to save the whales mate.... or just keep sprouting bull****, it seems to be what your best at :ok:

[beamwidth]

now where was i........ oh yeah,
As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, to elicit certain reactions......
ignore any further posts he's just looking to tick us off

good point norby, well stated

[baw676]

Stop rising to the bait lads!

He obviously can't read as the answer to his questions are all contained within the posts posted so far.

The mere fact he keeps asking the same question over and over and never reads the responses with the answers means he is out to upset.

Irrespective of what the answer may be he still won't be happy until we admit that Shannon tower is overstaffed and should actually be controlled by a monkey tied by a rope to the console.

Why does the cockpit of an aircraft have two blokes doing the one job the answer DFC is safety.
THATS WHY THERE IS TWO ATCO'S MANNING SHANNON TOWER.

[irishatco]

rte are reporting a shortage of staff tonight from midnight til 8am. of course they are blaming the ATCOs for this. where do they get their info?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0214/airport.html

[norby]

"Perhaps if I grow tired of flying, I will sign-up. Seems to suit those more accustomed to falling asleep in the chipmunk during basic training."

What the F**K is that about!!!!!!!!!
Are you seriously comparing Irish controllers to lazy Student pilots????
For your information Dublin deals with 95% of the traffic levels of Gatwick with 27 tower ratings not the 40+ tower ratings in Gatwick. Shannon control all the Upper level airspace between 45north and 61 north with less staff than UKNATS by miles.

Stick to what you know best. Small airplanes and small airports.
When you get a real flying job you might have something constructive to offer us, until then the last thing we need is a whingy tit pilot telling us HE knows best, we get enough of that ****e from management.:mad::mad::mad:

[GENEX69]

Thursday February 14 2008

Early-morning air passengers face disruption tomorrow as Irish air traffic controllers stage an overtime ban.

No flights will be permitted to land or take off from Cork Airport - the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) confirmed today that no aircraft could use the airport between midnight tonight and 8am.
``We expect the early morning services to be disrupted,'' added the spokeswoman.
Irish air traffic controllers issued a two-week strike notice to management on Tuesday, after 99% of controllers voted in favour of industrial action.
The members of the IMPACT trade union claim there has been a recruitment ban for the last six years.


Above extract from irish newspaper - read the use of the words.....
The members of IMPACT 'claim' there has been a recruitment ban for the last six years. Eh there has!!
Early-morning air passengers face disruption tomorrow as Irish air traffic controllers stage an overtime ban.

It's the way they tell'em.........

I'm feelin romantic I might go back to the pit...
Contract, bonus, meet the Fockers, N duties............possibilities there right enough...........

Ah maybe not cos I'd be done for somethin nasty..
If any of you IAA managment types tune in here - get the finger out!!

[thorisgod]

DFC and others

When the company offered 15 controllers Voluntary Early Retirement a few years ago it was because the Director of Operations believed we would be overstaffed in Shannon by 73 controllers. They also suspended training of a group of controllers who only recently graduated. They also farmed out some controllers to DFC. They also Failed to renew Tower ratings shortening the amount available. They also moved Shannon Approach to Dublin, taking more controllers with Tower ratings out of Shannon, who couldn't support the staff shortage in Dublin.

* All but 1 of the VER's would be gone by now anyway.

* 3/4 of the suspended trainees are operational.

* The DFC group are back

* They have renewed a few Tower ratings, I think and trained some existing controllers in this area so they can be pulled away from other busy positions if needed.

* The Approach controllers in Dublin, working Shannon App. have not or will not in the near future be trained into any positions in Dublin.

Regardless of haw many controllers turn up for duty at any given time in Shannon they must between them:

* Staff the Tower with 2 controllers(no assistant) H24
* Staff Low Level Area with up to 3 controllers (VFR may be separated)
* Staff High Level Area (1/4 million square miles) with anything from 2 to 9 sectors, handling not only inbounds and outbounds but 95% of the daily traffic that transits the Atlantic Eastboundand Westbound.

Work backwards from the 144ish available(99 in Ops) and tell me where the 73 extra came from.:ouch:

[DFC]

The Approach controllers in Dublin, working Shannon App. have not or will not in the near future be trained into any positions in Dublin

Yet another prime example of IAA under using staff.

--------

Why does the cockpit of an aircraft have two blokes doing the one job the answer DFC is safety

There are thousands of public transport passenger flights in the European IFR system every day operated single pilot. Are they dangerous?

The two crew on larger aircraft have specific roles. Yes each can act as a back-up to the other but they can not complete the flight normally alone. A simple example being the fact that the tiller is on the left of the P1 seat............not reachable from the P2 seat.

I am sure you have heard of the Banderante pilot operating single pilot when the control column snapped off in his hand............no problem.......jumped across into the vacant right seat and on landing was patting himself on the back on saving the day when he found out that there were no brakes on that side!

-------------

In the absence of an answer I am taking it that there is a requirement for 2 ATCO's H24 in Shannon Tower and that when one leaves to have a break (no one to provide the break) they are operating illegally. Which according to an above post happens every day after 7pm.

I must ring the IALPA rep to see what other tit pilots think regarding support to the proposed action.

Regards,

DFC

[ock1f]

Oh how i laugh :)
Lads just ignore DFC -obviously just stirring things for the sake of it. It is very very obvious that our replies EXPLAINING the situation are falling on deaf ears . Not only that but as i said before he/she obviously has pre-conceived ideas ,probably on everything from IAA controllers to Darfur and where shergar/elvis and lord lucan are. Its obvious by now that NOTHING we say will be listened to and absorbed , so apart from this post i for one will be ignoring DFC completely. I suggest that rest of the right minded reasonable people here do the same. Don't even bother replying. We have entertained this particular poster long enough.

MESSAGE ENDS

yours as ever
OCK1F

[DFC]

DFC Post 1806 and OckiF response at 1806

Nothing like having a prepared answer no matter what is said.

No point in reading a post before commenting.

You must be either a politician or management. :D

Regards,

DFC

[ock1f]

Now back to the issue at hand before it was hijacked by someone or other.

So the staff shortages have finally been exposed in cork too. It has been known for years that the place just cannot operate without call-ins .

I don't know whether the IAA comms manager has wrestled back control of the FAX machine from the HOTHEADS in management or whether there is a huge change of thinking from her office but its good to see that with each press release the message is getting less and less vitriolic and slanderous.
This i welcome for two reasons 1) i dont like having my professionalism called into question with the allegation that i walked off the job 'cos i felt like it 2) It doesnt continue to inflame the situation which serves no purpose what so ever.
For an eight hour closure of the tower i was expecting a napalm coated press release but it didnt appear. Maybe they are realising that they dont have a leg to stand on after all ,and they dont want to keep pissing us off all the time.
Maybe they realise that the situation could get really really REALLY BAD for them before the LRC meeting because there is ACTUALLY a seroius staff shortage after all.There is the standard spin on it from their point of view but nothing you wouldnt expect at this stage. Its a bog standard press release and thats the way it should be.

I was having a chat with a friend of mine who works in HR for a rather large company. I explained the situation to him and his response was "just keep doing what we are doing" because it was obvious to him that there are seroius staff issues. By continueing to work our full contracted hours we are complying fully with our contract of employment. By choosing not to work on our days off THAT ALONE exposes the truth. Throw in a work to rule and its even more obvious and plain to see.

The IAA will hopefully have their eyes opened between now and the 19th and realise that they need to get staff back on side -whtaever that takes-becuase we know full well that training controllers (even direct) takes a long time. Chances are that some even bigger scenerios will occur because of the shortage.

Hopefully this will change managements view that US working overtime on our days off is THEIR right and part of our normal T+C's. Hopefully they will come around to the view that we need to be treated with respect -not slander and the expectation that we are willing to work ourselves into an early grave.

I think our message is getting home loud and clear. Remember this is not a stituation of our making - we are just standing up for ourselves and by extension our customers and the travelling public. Stick with it .
The changes for the better are coming.

yours as ever
OCK1F

[ock1f]

DFC thanks for the compliment :)

Be seeing ya and take care

yours as ever

OCK1F

[Bombs Away]

Quote:
The Approach controllers in Dublin, working Shannon App. have not or will not in the near future be trained into any positions in Dublin
Yet another prime example of IAA under using staff.


While I understand the reasoning behind having two controllers in the tower, i.e. safety, I have to agree with DFC on this point. From my understanding there is a surplus of shannon approach controllers in Dublin yet none are being trained in dub ratings? The management of the IAA must really not know what the hell they are doing.

Full support to you guys in your actions :ok:

[54north15west]

From my understanding there is a surplus of shannon approach controllers in Dublin yet none are being trained in dub ratings? The management of the IAA must really not know what the hell they are doing:D Yep not only are they not Dublin rated the majority of them were multi rated Shannon controllers meaning their loss is felt even more when looking for bodies to cover sectors...the "wise" decision to send SNN approach to dublin was the IAA's and now they reap the whrillwind of ill thought out policy and snap decisions:=

[grr nav]

News & Press Releases

Date: February 14 2008
Headline: FURTHER DISRUPTIVE ACTION BY AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS

14 February 2008: The Irish Aviation Authority regrets to advise of further unofficial disruptive action by Air Traffic Controllers at both Shannon air traffic control centre and Cork Airport. The action at Shannon air traffic control centre takes place between 18:00 and 22:00 hours this evening and, at Cork Airport, between midnight tonight and 08:00 hours on Friday, 15 February.
This will cause major disruption to airlines and the travelling public as the Authority, for safety reasons, has to restrict services. As a result, there will be a reduced flight movement rate in Shannon airspace between 18:00 and 22:00 hours. Significant delays are expected during these times to flights operating into and out of Shannon, Dublin and Cork airports as well as regional airports. Services should return to normal by 22:00 hours tonight.
In Cork, it is anticipated that 11 early morning flights (15 February) will be affected. The Authority expects normal services to resume at 08:00 hours tomorrow. Intending passengers are advised to contact their airline for further information.
This unofficial action is taking place notwithstanding a notification from IMPACT Trade Union on Tuesday of this week that their members were prepared to take official industrial action, including a ban on overtime effective not before 26 February 2008. The present unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff and for safety reasons the Authority has to restrict traffic and reduce or close services. Air Traffic Controllers are demanding significantly enhanced extra attendance payments and changes to roster attendances both of which are included in a package of issues under discussion as part of a process at the Labour Relations Commission.
Further talks are scheduled to take place on 19 February between the Authority and IMPACT, the controllers’ union, in an attempt to find a resolution to this dispute.
ENDS

http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=449




"The present unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff"


There you have it, you ATCOs have been directly accused of DEFRAUDING the IAA. :ooh:

You have just been criminalised.:suspect:

I shall now go by the underworld name of 'Fingers Mc Grr nav'.:E

For Info: sick leave in Dublin for January and February was considerably down on the previous months.

[54north15west]

The present unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff But isnt it their asserition that they arent short of staff and that they roster to traffic levels and that overtime isnt used to prop up the service...:}

[spanador]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I venture to say that most controllers have been in the cockpit of a plane (tit or otherwise) at some stage. I also doubt very much if most pilots have been in a control centre?
Understanding what each other's position entails might lead to a little more understanding here on this site?

Just a thought.....!;)

[54north15west]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I venture to say that most controllers have been in the cockpit of a plane (tit or otherwise) at some stage. I also doubt very much if most pilots have been in a control centre?
Understanding what each other's position entails might lead to a little more understanding here on this site?
Yeah your right.......you are wrong.....majority of atcos have been in a cockpit and quite a lot of us are PPL holders

Understanding what each other's position entails might lead to a little more understanding here on this site?

Its easy...atcos give the orders and pilots follow em...:E

[PPRuNe Radar]

Shannon control all the Upper level airspace between 45north and 61 north

Not quite ..... although the IAA management probably think you do, and have excess staff to do so :}

[norby]

OOOOPPPSSS!!!!
sorry bout that I misread the crappy map on the IAA homepage

[av8boy]

Perhaps if I grow tired of flying, I will sign-up. Seems to suit those more accustomed to falling asleep in the chipmunk during basic training.

DFC,

I too am wondering what the hell that's all about. I'm a US FAA ATCer who started in ATC nearly 30 years ago, before that I flew in the USAF, and I've got an advanced degree in law as well. I've spent my life in aviation. I've been to SNN, I've seen the operation and met the controllers, and I'm left trying to decide which of the following is in play here. Is it that:

1. My assumption that "falling asleep in the chipmunk" means taking a nap in a training aircraft is incorrect, and that that phrase is some sort of Irish euphemism I don't understand;

2. You have no concept of the high level of professionalism, skill, and commitment among ATCOs in Ireland in general, and at SNN in particular, and you're doing a poor job improvising; or,

3. You're an ass?

At first I considered your questions reasonable. However, when you brought out the large, indiscriminate brush, you proved that I had been naive in giving you the benefit of the doubt. I honestly did not realize that you were hanging your hat on the assumption that ATCOs were lazy until the big "chipmunk" clue. You sir, have nothing to add to this discussion.

Note that I have no investment of any kind in the outcome of the labor/management conflict in Irish air traffic control. I'm just making a factual observation. Feel free to direct your indignation at me. If you happen to fly internationally and visit my neck of the woods, we could even plan for you to do so in person. I'm anxious to learn why you believe our kind to be lazy.

Dave
Los Angeles, CA

[thorisgod]

:DThanks again Impact for support.
anyone who is bored might chech this out:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0712/aviation.html

This is what the IAA were saying even before the Voluntary Retirements.

23 a year.
Laughable

[The Beerhunter]

Having read that extract in Macker's link, can someone with inside knowledge let us know how common it is for someone to maintain ORK and DUB ratings for any extended period? SNN tower/centre is feasible, this other scenario sounds rough.

[JAGH]

sending controllers from Dublin to Cork to prop up up the roster in Cork. and yet the Iaa have the cheek to say there are no staffing shortages.
Enough is enough , Iaa management being seen finally in their true light as absolutely clueless . The more this goes on the more the Iaa s mismanagement over the last number of years will be seen .

[spanador]

There are at least 2 controllers in dublin and 1 in shannon who are regularly "rostered" for duty in EICK, as far as I know. This takes the form of one shift cycle in crk, one in snn, or a month in crk and a month in snn. This system certainly applied last summer and late into '07.
Obviously one of the atcos in dub was to be going there again.
Nuts, eh? Short staffed in EICK.......NAH!!!:rolleyes:

[enoughisenough]

keep up the good work collegues there is no rush we are in a great position of strength due to the joke that is IAA management.....stick together for the safety of our airspace,

[LEBB]

only posting to clarify ...just in case is necessary to do so as I don't want unnecessary misundertandings... opinions posted by spanador have nothing to do with the real "spanish stuff", if you know what i mean....:ok:.regards from kiwiland.gnz.

[DFC]

av8boy,

Perhaps if I explain it a bit more you will realise what I am talking about.

In the early 90's the Irish ATC system was short staffed. Kind of the same position that they now find themselves in.

Taking the Dublin operation as an example -

This was despite having as an example a qualified ATCO at Dublin employed as a blip driver in the school while the operation calimed they were short of staff.

Why was this ATCO not used for operational duties - ask the union who blocked such a move.

To solve the shortage quickly the Authorities recruited qualified controllers (including bringing this ATCO back to operational duty).

However, thanks to the union, these direct entry controllers who were multi discipline qualified i.e. most qualified as Tower, approach and approach radar as well as OJTI and more than 1 qualified in area radar also...........were only permitted to check out on the approach radar function at Dublin.

Why you may ask were these controllers limited to just one position with their qualifications and experience - the answer is mind blowing -

The IAA recruited people into the ATC assistant grade. In time they did a tower course and worked in the tower only until a vacancy came up on area procedural / approach radar (15 years doing tower only not being uncomon) they then did approach radar, area procedural and tower positions until a vacancy came up on area radar whereupon they got to do area radar.

The Union recognised this as career progression and stuck a spanner in the direct entry scheme by demanding that the direct entries could only do approach radar until the most junior member of staff (an ATC assistant at the time) has passed through tower, approach radar and on to area).

There was in the early 90's an ATCO paid as an ATCO but working as an assistant at Dublin ACC.

This whole union blocking system is probably why multi qualified controllers who only do shannon approach radar at Dublin ACC. I.E the union prevents them being checked out on other positions because they would then block "career progression" of more junior Dublin based personnel.

That means that the number of sector qualifications available on a roster can be less than required - not because there is not enough staff but because those qualified to do it are not allowed to and those empty searts are reserved for other staff who are not yet qualified.

That is one example of why the situation is not just a simple shortage of staff. It is a rather complicated and unionised / politically motivated shortage of staff.

The solution may be to recruit direct entries. This is being flagged as being on a fixed term contract basis - why? Would it not seem more logical to recruit direct entries now on a permanent basis, full the gaps and recruit new trainees to cover expansion, retirements etc etc.

No. The Union insists on a fixed term contract only despite it being harder to recruit controllers on that basis. Why? We are back again to the unions positon of parachuting new controllers into Area radar positions which are seen as future promotion options for current staff........i.e. if you fill all the area radar vacancies with highly qualified 20 somnethings on a permanent basis, there is a long long wait for some approach radar controllers before they get to do area radar.

I hope that has provided you with a little insight to just how the system at the IAA is not all the union would like you to believe. Note that for balance it is not as the IAA say either. You have to take both side's positions with a big barrow load of salt.

Air Traffic Controllers are demanding significantly enhanced extra attendance payments and changes to roster attendances both of which are included in a package of issues under discussion as part of a process at the Labour Relations Commission.

Note that means more money for coming in - not an end to overtime.

--------------------

The Highlands and Islands in the UK has operated for years on the basis that controllers would move from one location to another to cover for example leave. They held multiple unit validations. This is not unusual in the ATC world and would not be regarded as understaffing.

Regards,

DFC

[norby]

Here's a thought... if the Corporate comms manager had retained her ratings and was available for duty Shannon might not have closed last night. If any of the recently promoted watch managers ops managers and domain specialists had retained ratings and come off projects and admin duties............

[norby]

Hear Hear!!

[COMICALIAM]

lads, what's milo being doing since he left atc.?you remember him.....the guy who was atc head of ......entertainment......or something like that..before comicaliam that is....you remember him.......the great aviator that couldn't handle twins and had the personality of a brick.....a real billy no mates.......hmmmm?

[cross_Country]

You Say

"IAA recruited people into the ATC assistant grade. In time they did a tower course and worked in the tower only until a vacancy came up on area procedural / approach radar (15 years doing tower only not being uncomon) "

Speaking from the shannon Perspective many of these people were left in the training grade for up on 15 years through no fault of their own. All that was required was a rating course and a period of on the job training, problem solved.
Instead they spent about a third of their career in a training grade not being trained and wages to match.
If you want to understand the political motivation of this controller shortage then ask IAA management why they had a significant number of staff who had completed more than half of their controller training requirements, had years of experience with their respective units but were not progressed to controller grade.

[pip squalk]

DFC

The staffing shortages in all centres has nothing to do with union "blocking". Its mismanagement of staff.

Last year there were 14 staff transferred to dublin to do what 7 staff were doing in shannon, thats not an issue really if they get retrained to work multiple ratings in dublin, to date most have not been given the opportunity to get other ratings. Othere have been transfered and had to wait over 3 months to begin rating training in the interm they did assistant work.

In Shannon many staff have had some ratings expire (despite their desire to hold onto them) under instruction from management, because its too much bother to keep everyone current and to do the competency checks required, a vast waste of good experienced staff!!

There are numerous other examples of wastefulness, Sending operational controllers on "projects" during the busy summer periods when non current staff were available, etc, etc, the list goes on and on!!!!!

[baw676]

Current management proposal's only have Shannon approach staff down for a Dublin rating in about 2011/12.

Comments were heard from management like :

"I don't think the Shannon guys have the skills to do a Dublin Rating"

"Sure don't you have a great roster with long breaks"

[IRLATCO]

Over the last 10 years or so,IAA management have,and continue to,make serious errors in their staffing calculations.To make matters worse their has been no effort made to basically right the wrongs.Staff at all 3 stations have bent over backwards to assist in trying to resolve ALL of the outstanding issues.We have been met at every juncture with nothing but disrespect and contempt despite the fact that as recent press statements stated "it is managements job to manage not ours".

We must all remain united in our stance and finally once and for all force the powers that be to finally do what they are all paid handsome salaries to do-Manage.Gone are the days of just putting up and shutting up.In this day and age,and in an industry that is safety critical,we must not only demand but also get what are working conditions that are not only the industry norm but also a basic right.

Regarding the perception that all we are looking for is money,well all I can say there is to all those out there-Grow Up.What we demand is more staff and that is all we have been looking for over the last number of years.In the absence of any significant recruitment with regard direct entries,combined with the fact that any new trainees will not be operational for at least 2 years,then a serious problem exists.This can only be solved in one of two ways,Flow Control or a dependable Call In scheme,thus protecting the ATCO's in situ.

Keep focused,stay united.At the end of the day we continue to work our contractual hours and contrary to some suggestions,it is management themselves that have either closed the Towers or implemented the flow control that has been necessary because of their own ineptitude.Incidentally all the recent staffing problems were well flagged in advance.What did they do?Nothing as always just waited till the last minute for the s:mad::mad:t to hit the fan.Then acted.:=

[norby]

I don't think the Shannon guys have the skills to do a Dublin Rating"

"Sure don't you have a great roster with long breaks"

Again, Mangement display their total ignorance and complete lack of concern for the professionalism of their only source of income, sorry their staff.
I'm willing to bet that they count the 14 SNN App staff in the 100 Dublin controllers AND the 150 Shannon controllers though

In Dublin we know that the Shannon lads want Dublin ratings and Cant understand why management wont do a 4 week conversion course and give the lads ratings. God knows we would welcome 14 new approach and tower ratings.
Management in the IAA are simply not qualified to manage an ATC system and the only reason that ATC in Ireland hasn't collapsed up til now is because
Controllers cope.

[ock1f]

Lads just ignore the unmentionable one-obviously this person is not who they appear to be. Their sole function is to lob incendary grenades into this thread and detract attention away from the truth. So just ignore whoever he/she is.

Judging by their "opinions" they are being fed very suspect info like suggesting that Impact dont want the direct entries to be permanent. Its Impact PUBLICLY stated policy that they wish the direct entries to be permanent as it has a whole host of benefits for us already there. So the unmentionable speaks complete tosh.

I would like to concur with Av8boy's obvious diagnosis of the unmentionable one as being a complete ass and has nothing what so ever to contribute to this forum and discussion-so just ignore.

Yours as ever

OCK1F

P>S Anyone know why RTE are STILL reporting that Shannon shut last night-it did not and stayed open the whole time?

[GENEX69]

Wasn't de Cassin news-reader that read that one out was it?
Interesting connections between d'IAA and others

Brennan FF and yer Gaffer.
Cassin and Cassin and no doubt one or two other dependable 'objective' news script writers in RTE - anyone smellin de coffee?

Maybe those ole IAA management boys (and girls) feel that they are invincible to bad press - wonder why.......

Stick to yer guns - just for once PLEASE stick to yer guns cos this time yez are on a winner!!!!

[290kts]

The current mismanagement is damaging what should be a proud small ATC provider, the staff are your best asset, use them wisely and treat them well. I hesitate to say listen to the managers on the job as I do believe they are among the most blinkered and anti-staff in the building, if mismanagement dont offer some decent proposals at this meeting next tuesday then they will have a united staff to confront, they may offer some half hearted proposals but they must realise that this will be subjected to a vote and we will not accept a return to the old ad-hoc ways of doing things-and a decent package in response to ALL our demands is required.

Oh by the way if I have heard correctly on the grapevine-staffing in Dublin is perilously tight this weekend-watch this space.

[grr nav]

I can see this whole thing spilling over into other 'talks'. With all the libellous press releases from corporate IAA, I would now be inclined to reject any deal put forward that incorporated significant change.

1, So I would say goodbye to NOTA, the UK can have it back.

2, SPO, dream on.

3, we will keep the shannon approach ATCOs in Dublin as we need them for Dublin ratings, but Shannon approach service can be delivered from Ballycasey

4. FAB, me arse.

[Red_All_Over]

Cork closing again tonight and no Dublin Tower operation tomorrow night between 2330 and 0600 Sunday

[ock1f]

What do they expect when we are obviously incredibly short of staff.

RTE latest report:http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0215/air.html

One qoute:
At Shannon Airport last night, controllers stopped providing cover for flights between 6pm and 9pm.

Where is this LIE coming from? Really. Shannon tower and indeed Shannon center low level was kept open by the skin of its teeth last night BUT OPEN IT WAS. Whats this crap about providing cover? I dont cover anyone or anything except my own arse. I do provide an air traffic control service though.

How would one put RTE straight on such a basic mistake, and what would be the best way to educate RTE on the meaning of , and differance between " open" and "closed"

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[ock1f]

RTE Morning Ireland this morning the 15th Feb an interview with Liam Kavanagh Dir of HR.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0215/morningireland_av.html?2337617,null,209

At least one production team in RTE have their ear to the ground!

A very interesting interview where LK publicly states that "admittedly overtime is voluntary" - at last they have actually admitted that. It must have nearly killed him to say it tho'!

Fair play to the RTE guy for asking the questions like:

"one controller is sick and all this happens,surely this is no way to run an aviation authority" Exactly what we have been saying.

"the IAA have gone to sleep for the past 5 years" Seems that way but its probably unfair to sleepers as sleeping is passive ,while the decisions that led to this debacle were not only actively taken, but the people who took them were probably conscious at the time

"What are you going to do about it" Yeah what are you going to do about it. Guess we will find out on the 19th when they have now publicly said that they will engage with us. I really look forward to that because they haven't engaged yet.

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[Radar]

ock1f,

Any outcome on or after the 19th depends on what both party's interpretation of 'engage' is. N'est pas?

[thelowestlevel]

From the IAA website today:

Date: February 15 2008

Headline:

Disruption to Air Traffic Services at Cork Airport

15 February 2008: due to a reported sick absence by an air traffic controller and the unwillingness of other controllers to cover this absence, there will be no air traffic services at Cork Airport between midnight tonight and 08:00 on Saturday 16 February. It is expected that one aircraft, which is scheduled to arrive after midnight tonight and five early morning departures, will be affected.

The Irish Aviation Authority regrets the inconvenience to the travelling public. Intending passengers are advised to contact their airline for further information.

Further talks are scheduled to take place on 19 February between the Authority and IMPACT, the controllers’ union, in an attempt to find a resolution to this ongoing dispute.

ENDS

Not really any better than last nights statement:
"This unofficial action is taking place notwithstanding a notification from IMPACT Trade Union on Tuesday of this week that their members were prepared to take official industrial action, including a ban on overtime effective not before 26 February 2008. The present unofficial disruption is orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff and for safety reasons the Authority has to restrict traffic and reduce or close services."

The interpretion of safe depends on your view point, staff did their best last night to ensure minimum delays in shannon airspace. The tower was kept open and flow restrictions put in place in high and low level to keep things safe but moving. The thanks we get is the above quote, and the fact that our National broadcaster is still saying that Shannon shut last night. IT DID NOT.

Not expecting the IAA to correct this error, But come on IMPACT, get the finger out and SAY SOMETHING.

OVERTIME IS SITLL VOLUNTERY, :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

SO WE HAVE THE OPTION TO SAY NO.:= := := :=

We need more staff, overtime is only leading to tired fatigued staff, and is no solution, it is only February, and already we are looking ay 6-8 high level sectors, God help us when the summer comes.
:hmm: :hmm: :( :(

[baw676]

Have to say as i haven't been VOLUNTEERING my services for overtime i'm not as fatigued as i normally would be. Which my wife appreciated yesterday;)

[thelowestlevel]

RTE six one news still saying shannon shut last night :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ock1f]

Radar-yes of course "any outcome on or after the 19th depends on what both party's interpretation of 'engage' is."

It is not only my view but also I believe our negotiaters view that up to now the IAA management have denied that there is ANY problem with the amount of overtime required and staffing numbers . Hence the view that the IAA have NOT actively engaged with us in any sense. At least now the signs are that their eyes and ears have been opened and that they are prepared to engage with staff.
I think i know what you are hinting at ,obviously we will be engageing with management too on a professional and construtive basis.

However i will say this. We are very short of staff. Controllers dont just pop out of the woodwork. So the company will have to come up with some very attractive and interesting proposals to encourage controllers to come in on their very precious days off in order to fill the gaps. If they dont ,then there will be a summer of huge amounts of flow control and restrictions because the IAA cant safely staff the roster.

Not only that but because of the HUGE amount of resentment and anger that is there from being publicly slandered and insulted , most controllers don't feel like showing ANY gestures of goodwill. The IAA would be wise to to remember this when they are formulating their proposals for next tuesday the 19th.

As well as that there will have to be concrete proposals on recruitment going into the future. Obviously we cant be expected to work on our days off on such a regular basis in the long term. I welcome the 36 newbies who will start in a few weeks but the fact of the matter is they WILL NOT even cover projected retirements in one station. A sustained and substantial recruitment drive is needed over the next five years at least , just to keep pace with the retirements that are coming up.

This is coming to a head and I hope it will be sorted to the satisfaction of everyone before too long.

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[IKEANO]

I disagree with Lk's remarks about having a voluntary call in scheme which has worked very satisfactorily up until now. It has worked satisfactorily from an IAA managements point of view because it has cost them alot less to make up for staff shortages, with Call ins ,than the hiring of controllers. The Iaa hired SCP6 back in 2001,, then tried to sack them all in 2003, because of some genie in the lamp prediction, that there wasn't going to be enough work for them.'' NUTS!'' The controllers of SCP6 then spent a whole year fighting the IAA in the courts trying to get re-hired. Thankfully , they won.
Understaffing is also evident in the amount of hours and air traffic that controllers are being coerced into working before getting their required fatigue breaks. Controllers are regulary working upto 3 hours on busy sectors before being provided with fatigue breaks . When controllers complain about being in postion for more than 2 hours, , they are often afforded a break, grudgingly, and made to feel undeserving and a nuisance. . When they file a complaint by way of safety suggestion form they are shunned by their watch managers who won't even sign them, which I might add ,is the instruction given to them by their operations manager. One controller was summoned to the ops managers office for filing a safety suggestion form( note not an MOR mandatory occurrence report) for having exceeded sector capacity. There, he was verbally attacked and had his competency called into question. That is absolutely disgraceful, but indicative of the working conditions and unnecessary pressure that the controllers employed by the IAA have to endure.
Mr LK also indicated that the IAA were recruiting by way of direct hires. That process was initiated 12 months ago and to this day. DIRECT ENTRY CONTROLLERS have NOT commenced training , nevermind,operations ,at any of the three airports or centres. Mr LK also says '' a number of direct entry controllers''. why has he not put a finite or even ball park figure on numbers of direct entries because they can't get them . Mr LK there is a worldwide shortage of air traffic controllers because numbskull Air Traffic Mismanagers , like yours truly have allowed filthy money making sully the waters safety. Lk also says that this current dispute was unnecessary and avoidable. NEVER A TRUER WORD SPOKEN.
At The End o' de day, all credit toooo GOB****ES.

[baw676]

If talks fail on Tuesday and we progress to the next stage i seriously hope that the union don't fall for that old "sure come back in and we will talk about it some more, and while your at it can you cancel the Industrial action" line.

We have them by the proverbial's and i for one do not want to be hood winked by them into letting go until we get a proper resolution that were all happy with.

[norby]

That's EXACTLY why overtime must be left out of official industrial action.

[The Jolly Roger]

I agree with you baw676...The union have to go into these meetings stronger than ever before....No bull****...straight talking...meet the demands or we WILL GO to the gate!! We've had quite enough of this foolin about....Or should I say being fooled about. Its also time that the public know that this is NOT any type of industrial action...Official or otherwise....As for the Independant Newspaper...THANKS A F:mad:ING BUNCH!!!!!!

[thorisgod]

LK on the Radio

Go back and listen again. Note the implied fact that we are on standby on our rest days, like many other ATS providers.

Aaahhhh! :ugh:

No we are not.

While there is the oppurtunity to make it known that you are available on a rest day you can still say no.

And if they can't get anybody who expressed a preference they go through the whole roster starting with people on a 1st day off, then 2nd day off etc.

This is the bloody situation we are trying to resolve.:*

[290kts]

Once again we are being turned into the ALDI of ATC providers ( I suppose ALDI have some uses-unlike our esteemed director of HR who has nothing but staff shortages and a extremely angry staff to show for his work over the last 5 years), Mr K please explain now to the board how you tried to sack an entire SEP course and prevented an increase in the operational pool of controllers in 2001, just like the safety regulator-NO balls,NO planning and a culture of bullying embedded in the company.
When will mismanagement learn that they need to staff above minimums, they need to see reason and understand that having extra staff allows them to provide career breaks, job sharing, training and properly resource projects-the controllers should not be manning these 'extras' from the operations pool. It is not all that long ago that staff were forced to resign as career breaks would not be permitted, this was promptly followed by a VER scheme. The lack of planning in IAA hq is astonishing. If I have heard correctly on the grapevine some genius wants to operate a FIS suite for daylight hours out of present staffing levels in Dublin this summer, the only way this can be done as I see it without increasing staff is to have us work longer hours and get shorter breaks. When will they realise that an increase in traffic and working more will just lead us to an unthinkable result-and you can bet for the next two summers we will be working to minimums all over again.
Staff MUST bear all this in mind when we are presented with a ballot at some stage in the future, included on this ballot will probably be a 5 and 3 roster with longer hours, some vague promise from mismanagement about casual leave and staffing levels (in relation to DUB but you can bet SNN and CRK will be shafted as well) - we the staff must ensure that the staffing factor/levels are increased to allow more staff in the centres at all times, so what if it allows a controller on a night duty to take a longer break or ensure no one is overworked if someone reports sick at short notice. We need more staff at all times and not staff to minimums.

As a final note, full respect is due to all the staff working under stressful conditions due to staff shortages at present, flow control can only protect them so much from shorter breaks and reduced staffing.

Well done all.

[Howth head]

I don't think that the iaa's director of human resources ' forays in the media are going to do anything for your recruitment campaign. Especially the females. why don't you just hire this guy
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=P1L3o3gyxPU

[alwaysmovin]

I've just seen that there will be delays into Dublin today....reason..staffing according to our system.....How can the IAA still continue to deny there are no staffing problems.....at least chemical ali was entertaining in his complete denial of the situation compared to LK.

[IRLATCO]

What are the nature of the Dublin delays today?

[grr nav]

Expect a NOTAM to be issued soon (1200ish) closing Dublin from 2345 to 0600 tonight due to staff shortages.

...and before that ejit:yuk: of communications manager says again that this is "orchestrated by controllers to ensure that the Authority is short of staff"

1 atco is out with broken ribs,the other is out with the flu and the DA is long term S/L. (Staffing for nights is 5 ATCOs 1 DA)

lot of empty seats tonight

[ock1f]

Macker-classic post :ok:

You must have done a doctorate in behavioural psychololgy in your spare time because you hit the nail on the head by outlining how the IAA think about their controlling staff.


Yours as ever
OCK1F

[spanador]

Just remembered...... Stripless training starting in SNN this week. More people off the roser.....Down to minimum (or below) staffing....Whose fault if TWR has to close again before Tue???

[grr nav]

DUBLIN closed from 2330 tonight to 0630 tommorow morning

10-4 over and out

[ock1f]

Spanador-yes it will be very interesting if the tower has to close again before tuesday and see who they blame.

It is also very conceivable that low level could shut thereby closing 75% of Irish airspace including cork , shannon and all the regionals.

It is also conceivable that the number of high level sectors could be restricted in the westbound flow causing big knock on delays across europe. Also the number of NAT tracks accepted by shannon in the eastbound flow could be restricted too .

In light of the above scenario anyone willing to take bets that they will cancel training at a moments notice and order peope back to OPS?. Of course they can't change the rostered hours at such short notice -just where you report to.

I am actually surprised that they are still going ahead with stripless. This is after the two major system failures in one day last week. But more importantly there was two this week . One of the occurences this week involved both radar screens in a suite going completely blank-nothing but light blue.

And they still want to take away the strips????????????

Yours as ever

OCK1F

[norby]

Someone here mentioned Milo in an earlier post.
If memory serves me correctly he took legal action against the IAA before he retired. It was settled out of court.
I can't be 100% sure but i think 4 people (including 1 before the courts at the moment) have taken legal action agianst the IAA on grounds of discrimination, not to mention the legal action resulting from the scp 6 debacle!!!
Can anyone out there think of a more sued semi state in the country?
Management must be very confused by all this because if we've got such a cushy number "overpaid, underworked, lazy, paid to sit there looking out the window" why are we bringing the wrath of the press and the flying public down on our heads?
As the IAA is a "World leader in the field to work for and do business with" (remember that) why are so many people From the Head of ATS to a DA complaining through the Courts that theyve been treated badly?

The Shannon lads may be better briefed on this one, Is there a Consortium of American Air Lines suing the IAA over EXCESSIVE PROFITS? Heard something about it on the news but can't be sure.

The IAA really must feel invincble if they are taking **** from so many directions and do nothing to sort things out

[GENEX69]

Now now OCK1F don't be mocking the most modern system in Europe..
Remember within budget and on schedule!!
Your management achieved what no other ANSP in Europe could..
I see a total lack of appreciation for these wallas and yawl should reel grateful to dem ole boys (an gals!).


I know it is not orchestrated... the sequence of short closures.... but it is effective while at the same time, if the media bothered to look behind the scenes, it certainly reflects how bad things really are for you guys still in the pit.

I wish all of you the very best and the courage to do what we didn't during the many rincas that we were led on by the various naffs down through the years - where are they now oh yeah two of them are directors and a few more are sittin pretty with cushy numbers.

As for hootin Lil shur she can't help it after all she's only a mouthpiece for... ah you know what I mean....:ok:

[norby]

The IAA said in a statement it "regrets the inconvenience to the travelling public and to airlines".

The air traffic controllers are seeking enhanced overtime and changes to their roster.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/12218677?view=Eircomnet

Can IMPACT please start speaking up for us?

[shamrock375]

Can I first of all say that I am totally behind my collegues, lets all hope that things are worked out to the satisfaction of the ATC branch this Tuesday. More staff, less call ins, more leave available ... happier controllers. I, for one, will think I'm in a dream if I get the leave I apply for.
Genex69 though, looking at your comments, I can see you are now retired and by the looks of things, very bitter .... don't know why, considering you were probably one of the lucky guys who got out on the early retirement. Can I just remind you that this is a serious issue for us all and your diatribe about individuals is taking away from it. You obviously have issues with some of these people... find somewhere else to air your blinkered views. In my view, they are taking away from the debate and I hope no one looking at this forum from the ' outside' thinks that we all have the same views as you. I'd like to think that even though this is an anonymous forum, that the majority of things being said here would be said ( and have been said ) in public.

[Bearcat]

Full support for you guys even though my night is going to be messed up. The IAA have **** upon you from a high long enough and there's only so much one can take.

[grr nav]

Unfortunately it is a small group of individuals who are the problem.

It is these individuals who have decided that their style of managment is dictatorial and confrontational.
It is these individuals who have orchcestrated the current situation by gross mismanagment
It is these individuals who continue to deny the obvious.
It is these individuals that consistently publish libellous untruths.and if the CX ever bothered to show his face in the centre (DUB SHA or CRK), I would not have a problem disscusing this with him, however i'm sure there would be a long queue of ATCOs waiting to do the same as the Director of ops can attest to.

[norby]

Lets get this straight.... 2000 days overtime paid at double time= 4000 days salary. That would pay the wages of 11 full time controllers and no one in management seems to think there's a problem with that.

in 2001 Bill Prafiska (the Aviation Regulator at the time) wanted the Iaa to increase terminal charges to about €3.20 (currently€2.25) and charge for every mile flown not just the last 20 as is current practice. The IAA refused claiming that it would hurt small local airlines such as RYR REA and EIN.
Since then RYR and EIN have been posting good profits and REA recoup part of thier costs from the EU.

In short, the current business strategy of the IAA is to refuse to increase charges to profitable service users when sanctioned by the regulator and pay the salaries of 11 non existent controllers.:eek:

Could you imagine the carnage if IAA controllers were as incompetent as IAA managers!!!!!:D

[SINGAPURCANAC]

and if the CX ever bothered to show his face in the centre
If you read "Hell's talks" by Machiavelli( written in 19th century) you would know that he wouldn't ever appear !

[Howth head]

i know that it would be disastrous to bring this debate into the gutter, but with reference to the comms manager , as far as i know she was elevated to that position without interview or competition and without relevant experience. Now she is slandering and telling lies publicly about her former colleagues and calling their professionalism into question. i think that controllers have a right to refute her allegations and to call her own professionalism into question. i don't buy that crap about her only doing her job and doing what she is told. i have heard that said too many times about managers in the iaa ','ah yes they really are siding with you guys but they have to tow the management line''. Boll:mad:s . they just don't have the balls to stand up for their staff. they don't have the balls to stand up for what is right.,

[goodworker]

I wonder if management are working under the illusion that if all this gets sorted, that things will just return to normal. It would be wise for them to take on board that the feeling within our ACCs is so negative, that even if a voluntary OT scheme is agreed on, there may not be the numbers to make it work. I won't be signing up. This is one time when ATCOs would happily cut off their nose to spite their face.


Wonder if there's a new Staff Attitude Survey in the pipeline

[DFC]

Lets get this straight.... 2000 days overtime paid at double time= 4000 days salary. That would pay the wages of 11 full time controllers and no one in management seems to think there's a problem with that.

Not quite.

You forget the liability for sick pay, training costs, pension, leave, maternity pay, insurance etc etc. Overtime is just as good for the IAA as it is for the ATCOs.

That is why ATCOs dont want an end to overtime - they want the system adjusted and the pay increased but they still want to be able to do overtime.

Thus it seems that if the IAA was to put in place a solid plan that would bring an end to overtime permanently, there would be quite a few disapointed ATCO's.

Customers must press the IAA to end any requirement for overtime. Otherwise we will be back in the same situation in 2 years time when more money is wanted for doing overtime.

Very few well paid jobs I know of where you are goig to get the leave you want when you want unless you are at the top of a points system or whatever method they use.

Regards,

DFC

[GENEX69]

Thanks shamrock375 for reminding me and you're right I should take my diatribe elsewhere and maybe try to be less bitter. Shucks it just slipped out without me even noticing.....
Glad you're behind yer colleagues too - fair play!
I assure you I have no agenda with any particular individuals in the IAA.

As for the history... hopefully it will not be repeated.

Lest I be misunderstood - maybe strange sense of humour....

I wish my former colleagues the very best with this ordeal and perhaps we will see a speedy resolution to the satisfaction of the ATCOs.

Now where did I leave my putter..........

BTW do you really like aeroplanes and computers?:O

[norby]

YAWN DFC
Just not listening are you!

"Customers must press the IAA to end any requirement for overtime."

Is there any other way to end the requirement for overtime other than by having adequate staffing and contingency staff?
Jeez I don think anyone on this board has suggested that so far.

Don't bother replying we're not interested:ooh:

[grr nav]

HELLO DFC

"Overtime is just as good for the IAA as it is for the ATCOs..That is why ATCOs dont want an end to overtime - they want the system adjusted and the pay increased but they still want to be able to do overtime."

You base your argument on the premise that ATCOs have stopped doing overtime in order to secure increased payments.

Says who? the media? the corporate communications manager? Al Jazera?

Are you the Director For Calamities, otherwise known as Director Human Resources, in disguise? now be honest.

Macker, have ya seen shergar too?:E

[irishatco]

That is why ATCOs dont want an end to overtime - they want the system adjusted and the pay increased but they still want to be able to do overtime

What do you know O great one that we dont? S.F.A.
Where are your facts to back up such a(nother) ridiculous statement?

Very few well paid jobs I know of where you are goig to get the leave you want when you want unless you are at the top of a points system or whatever method they use.

It doesn't matter what your seniority is, when you cannot get leave that you applied for 12 months in advance!
How do you propose to solve that one?

in the main, his( DFC's ) posts offer his ( often uninformed ) opinion of lots of topics, but solutions to few or none of them


Here Here.

If you still cannot comprehend whats actually going on, then maybe you should give up. It would appear that you're either not the brightest, or just a pain in the ass - my money is on both.

The IAA have their chance to do something at the LRC next week. If they really start looking for direct entries, you should apply, you'll have so many people here to give you a character reference!

Why dont you come up with some solutions, and not try to stir the ****

see you next tuesday:rolleyes:

[ock1f]

Well anyway .......:rolleyes:

I think its more than fair to say that goodworkers point is a reality. It was always the case that only a certain percentage of controllers (a minority percentage) were open to working on their days off. It is evidently clear that after they have pissed off and alienated all their controlling staff that anyone who was sitting on the fence and waiting for the new proposals has already made up their mind that 1) my days off are really precious 2) the last thing they feel like doing is doing a favour for the managemnet types who slandered them only a few weeks before.

As already said the IAA would do well to heed this sentiment when they are formulating their proposals for tuesday. They will really have to come up with some attractive and interesting ideas to get us back on side. I hope they do - to be honest.

Of course the idea that IAA staff to such an extent so that overtime or call-ins are NEVER needed is just poppycock. Unless you quantify the actual staff needed and then double it (maybe more!) then there will always be a requirement to have overtime and call-ins.

The issue as WE ALL KNOW is that up to now the number of staff needed is no where near the amount of staff available. Hence the need for excessive amounts of overtime. Hence also the lack of leave and other basic entitlements. Hence also the feeling of getting hammered whenever you sit in. This is not going to change and will even get ALOT worse before 2009/2010 when the next SCP class come on stream. So the solution is simple- put in place a new scheme thats acceptable to staff-maybe even two schemes. In the meantime a concerted recruitment drive is started icluding both direct entries and SCP classes. :ouch:

Yours as ever

OCK1F

[norby]

Quote:
in the main, his( DFC's ) posts offer his ( often uninformed ) opinion of lots of topics, but solutions to few or none of them.

1800+ posts on a variety of topics from ASBO's to Atc and all with a common thread. Listen to me! I know more than you youre wrong.

How does he get the time to fall asleep in the back of his chipmunk?
A man of his superior mental abilities should be Sec. General of the UN or on countdown or something like that.

Go away and read the thread completely DFC and stop publicly displaying your ignorance of the subject at hand.
We're not in the highlands and regions of the UK
We're not Luton approach
We're not under an ASBO
We're not confused about the quadrantal rule or VFR flight levels

When you actually understand Irish ATC better than Irish Controllers then you can talk down to us, until then, BEGONE:yuk:

[ock1f]

Actually i had a quick think about what i just said above-and i have edited it.

As for the unmentionable one dont even bother reply-for each reply he/she gets it just keeps them going. This unmentionable one has so publicly shown themselves to be ignorant , beligerent and one prawn short of a prawn sandwich and has nothing what so ever to contribute apart from making a complete ass out of themselves.

Yours as ever

OCK1F

[ock1f]

Macker -thanks for saying my "scheme" looks about right.

However having consulted with some other forumers and having a quick think about it myself i have removed my "scheme" This is a very public forum, and that was my major concern. To anyone who didnt see it I apologise but im sure it will be talked about at work as it has been floated already i think.

AS for the complete ass just ignore him/her as we shouldnt even waste our time replying any more.

Yours as ever

OCK1F

[spanador]

OCK1F,
While your suggestions have merit, I'm glad to see you have had the good sense to edit them.
When the reps go in on tue, it should be up to mgmt to speak and propose a solution to the current "situation". Whether they come up with a revised overtime system is irrelevant in the first instance as far as I'm concerned.
As I've said here before, their response should be:
1. Publicly admit the staff shortage!
2. Present a written (no waffling spin) undertaken on how they have a long term plan to rectify the shortage and ensure it never happens again that staff can't get what they are entitled to.
3. They may then present their short term solutions, and if this includes a new overtime system, then providing parts 1+2 are there, the should the reps even listen!

Priority is ADMISSION and LONG TERM COMMITTMENT!

[ock1f]

Spanador-cheers dude - Lesson learned.

Just as well i have me protective flame suit on!!!!!!!!!

Yours as ever

OCK1F

[Yahweh]

"As I've said here before, their response should be:
1. Publicly admit the staff shortage!
2. Present a written (no waffling spin) undertaken on how they have a long term plan to rectify the shortage and ensure it never happens again that staff can't get what they are entitled to.
3. They may then present their short term solutions, and if this includes a new overtime system, then providing parts 1+2 are there, the should the reps even listen!"

An apology for all the crap that's being written on the IAA website might be nice aswell :E

[ock1f]

Spanador - i agree 110% - if your wishlist happens it would be a start to mending some bridges which is badly needed too after a couple of weeks of shamefull IAA conduct.

Macker- i am amazed that Impact haven't done more publicly. Its not like they are unaware of the facts. I still think are getting some heat from outside hence the reluctance to use their many PR people to defend us. I reckon our voice is only being heard publicly thru' this forum - which is a pity and shouldn't be so.

Impact as well as IAA management would be wise to pay very close attention to the sentiment and feeling that is evident amongst all staff. IF they collude in coming out with fancy sounding but ineffective proposals on super tuesday then i think Impact will have lost any chance of guiding and influencing the process-Michael Landers and Shay Cody pay heed.

Remember it is the staff that stood together for what is right. All three stations have stood united. Let that not be forgotten. If needs be then we will do what has to be done-Impact or no Impact.

If Impact are really a union and are there because of, and for their members then all they have to do is read this entire thread and it will be plain to see what is EXPECTED and REQUIRED of them on super tuesday. Funnily enough the same applies to management.

Yours as ever

OCK1F

[shamrock375]

Well, Genex Touche.
Didn't mean to offend ( just rap you on the knuckles ). You, of course, understand whats going on, more than alot of people. Being there, done that, right?

[ock1f]

I just checked the website of OUR company to see what slander and insults have been published about the degenerates in DUB who are apparently walking off the job again tonight.

But wait-they must scared of the dub controllers-its the shortest press release yet. It only says that ye are engaged in disruptive action. Come on get out there on "strike" with the rest of us. Or at least do some of that wildcat stuff we are meant to do. At the very least how about upgrading what ye are doing to "unofficial action"

Has the tide in the PR battle turned or is it because its a saturday?
Or is it that they dont want to mess with the DUBS ?

16 February 2008: Due to ongoing disruptive action by air traffic controllers, there will be no air traffic services at Dublin Airport between 2330hrs tonight and 0630hrs on Sunday 17 February. It is expected that 10 flights will be affected; eight arrivals and two early morning departures.
Intending passengers should contact their airline for further information. The Irish Aviation Authority regrets the inconvenience to the travelling public and to airlines.
Further talks are scheduled to take place on 19 February between the Authority and IMPACT, the controllers’ union, in an attempt to find a resolution to this ongoing dispute.
ENDS

Yours as ever
OCK1F

[norby]

If you look at DFC's profile page there's an option to add him to your IGNORE list. If we all do that maybe He'll go away........:E

[norby]

IT WORKS:ok:

[Yahweh]

"Does Dublin really need 4 air controllers plus more to give them breaks for 2 runway operation?

Thank God Heathrow does not require that many"

DFC,

Considering the fact that you don't work for the IAA or NATS for that matter, and I'm willing to bet no other Service provider would have you, then how in gods name do you have any idea of the situation both here or in Heathrow. Have you ever actually been in heathrow tower? I'm guessing not.

By the way you never told me what happened when that controller broke his leg?

[ock1f]

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::{:{:ugh::ugh::=:yuk::yuk::yuk:

think we should send doctors , some straight jackets and sedatives round:eek:

[IRLATCO]

Once and for all DO NOT pass any comment on the postings of our now infamous "friend".This whole issue deserves a dignified thread and not to be influenced by the rantings of a wannabe.Stick to the point.Our views are being heard far and wide compliments to PPRUNE.The press may be a little manipulative with the truth but we are not.Super Tuesday has now taken on a life of its own.Its now or never.As for our IMPACT reps,do not accept any half assed proposals.Management know what they have to do.Time will tell.

[irishatco]

If you look at DFC's profile page there's an option to add him to your IGNORE list. If we all do that maybe He'll go away........:E


Nice one. great idea.

He's lost the plot now. Improper attempts at slander just show its working

What a c u next tuesday;)

[goodworker]

Right lads

If we can exercise our right not to work overtime, then we can exercise our right not to reply to this poster! I've deleted all reference of the poster from my previous posts.

ALL TOGETHER NOW

Let's not bow to ignorance

They could be posting a description of you next

Macker, Yahweh, Irishatco just let the baby have it's bottle