ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January [Archive] - Page 4

DFC

2nd Mar 2008, 18:35

Macker,

This is true DFC. But you would still be most welcome to apply for the forthcoming direct entry ATCO positions in the IAA. We'll take anyone at this stage!

Let me see......take a pay cut, loose job security, move, give up the office in the sunshine, have to pay top dollar for decent airline tickets when I go on holiday, not be able to retire as soon as I want, and on top of that be thought of by the public as a money grabbing lazy civil servant?.............No Thanks.

It is, however, a little busier than the last time you may have darkened these doors.

Has the traffic increased since last week?

If, as I suspect, you have military origins, you will understand what is in store for you when I say that you will be "led out at dawn"...

...to do EIDW Ground!!

No military experience. Unless you can count discussions regarding civil military co-ordination procedures or airspace.

You will have Alpha back kicking pilot ass before you get me to leave the sunshine for the pit.

Regards,

DFC

Xacto

2nd Mar 2008, 23:41

You will have Alpha back kicking pilot ass before you get me to leave the sunshine for the pit.Ahh Alpha…….fond memories.

A/C: (irritated after Alpha told him to get a move on as he taxied out) ‘Would YOU like to come down here and taxi this aircraft?

Alpha: ‘Well one of us bloody better!’

flowman

3rd Mar 2008, 09:30

I have just received an e-mail from the representative of Union Syndicale at Eurocontrol (Union Sydicale is the trade union representing European Commission employees).
The e-mail, which was sent to all members, is a copy of the page from Ryanairs website which begins:

"Highly paid public servants should not be allowed to close Irish airports as they seek an overtime payment of €1,200 per day!!)....."

It is preceded by a simple "FYI" as if it is passing on a statement of fact.

This defies belief on a number of levels.

1) It's just bare faced cheek for anyone representing the European Commission to refer to "highly paid public servants" in this disparaging manner.

2) How strange that a trade union is circulating propaganda from a company that itself discourages trade union mambership.

3) This trade union must number amongst its paying members former Dublin ATCOs, and definitely a number of ATCOs from other countries.

4) Union Syndicale have not circulated any statement from the Union representing the Dublin ATCOs.

5) It offers no opinion on this information.

If anyone would like to forward a publishable statement for transmission I will happily pass it on.

SINGAPURCANAC

3rd Mar 2008, 10:19

THE GREAT OPPORTUNITY!
This email and information on Ryanair site give an excellent opportunity for every ATCO in IAA.
Your answer should be:
Yes, we made mistake . We asked for 1200EUR per overtime shift,but latter on we realised that there is too many poor people in the world, especially among top management in aviation industry.
Having consider overall situation all Irish ATCOs will stop further negotiation with the management relating to overtime pay.
As it is not fair to take 1200 EUR per overtime shift while others flying only bussiness class we announced next statement according to the previous chapter:
NO MORE OVERTIME SHIFTS!
Irish ATCOs

flowman

3rd Mar 2008, 10:23

After a brief exchange of e-mails the Rep for Union Syndicale has asked to have a statement from the Irish ATCOs which he will forward to all members.

So would anyone care to send me a PM stating their official position and I will forward it for circulation?

thorisgod

3rd Mar 2008, 10:35

flowman,
I would relish the oppurtunity to edit press releases and even to lower myself to publish my repudiation of others press releases.

Alas, I must remain silent unless directed otherwise......

For now though, did MOL tell anyone that he pays "hello" money to new employees in the form of a New Joiners Allowance. about E1,500 over 6 months, I think.

Thorisgod.

norby

3rd Mar 2008, 11:34

Flowman
Anyone who has posted in public has already analysed and repudiated all of the scandalous press releases from rIAAnair and our own employers the IAA.
Let's not forget that rIAAnair publicly stated that they were getting their information in the form of letters from the IAA and a "scource" involved with the confidential Labour Relations Commission negotiation. rIAAnair then divulged that confidential information in the Irish media.
Do not ask us to write privately to Union Syndicate but print out this thread as everything that could vindicate our position has already been written on these pages and there are links to the disgraceful IAA press releases and many others.
Norby:ok:

Robot1

3rd Mar 2008, 11:46

"Censorship is a tool of those who have the need to hide actualities from themselves and others.

Their fear is only their inability to face what is real.

Somewhere in their upbringing they were shielded against the total facts of our experience.

They were taught to look one way, when many ways exist."

Charles Bukowski

flowman

3rd Mar 2008, 12:46

Okay.
It's a shame that your official position cannot be stated.
As you say Norby, there is enough written here already.
flo

flowman

3rd Mar 2008, 14:42

Ooh,
I notice that Union Syndicale have now released a more balanced version of events.
:ok:

thorisgod

3rd Mar 2008, 15:40

Very poetic Robot1

but it's the sword of Damocles.
It doesn't swing, it hangs.
and more importantly; it's an allusion to the ever-present peril faced by those in positions of power.

Stop acting like your educated and get educated.

Demacles is a class of battleship.
It's also a misnomer for Demades from Greco-Roman histories, a friend of Alexander if I'm not mistaken.

Thorisgod :8

Robot1

3rd Mar 2008, 17:06

Just what we need in our time of peril. In-house griping about literary allusions.;)

Still, there's not much else we can talk about, is there?:oh::oh::oh::oh:

PPRuNe Radar

3rd Mar 2008, 17:07

Bring on James Joyce :ok:

flowman

3rd Mar 2008, 17:12

Maybe now's a good time to start squabbling about spelling.:E

thorisgod

3rd Mar 2008, 20:36

lol, robot, thought you were being programmed by DFC.

Still not accepting deals till i get what I want.

Thorisgod

thorisgod

3rd Mar 2008, 20:53

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10009167.shtml

practice what you preach MOL and stick to penny pinching

Robot1

3rd Mar 2008, 21:06

thought you were being programmed by DFCNo Thorisgod, I'm one of the greedy, underworked infidels.

Though perhaps I should make my posts a little less cryptic.

But, hey, that's paranoia for ya ;););)

norby

3rd Mar 2008, 21:29

Flowman
Do you have a link to that Union Syndicale report?

flowman

4th Mar 2008, 08:14

No it was sent as an e-mail.
I will send you a PM later, not at work 'til this afternoon.

norby

4th Mar 2008, 17:04

Trains cancelled and passengers stranded after train drivers refuse to work extra duties claiming they are under staffed.
Sound familiar?
Why aren't their bosses insulting and slandering them in the press I wonder?
:E

jackl

4th Mar 2008, 20:11

Hear on the grape vine that there is a new deal on the way . Info meetings to be held tomorrow . Does anyone know whats happening and whats been agreed ? Hard to get any info from the usual sources. All comments welcome....

tog

4th Mar 2008, 22:10

Yes I'm afraid you're quite right... just hope the majority realise this tomorrow and not accept some half hearted package just to get a resolution, I for one will be keeping all ears to the ground and will await round 2 with baited breath...I urge everyone to think carefully what they vote on as it will have serious consequences... Here's to the ATCO's and the lads working hard for us on the NEC.. :ok:

enoughisenough

5th Mar 2008, 16:25

i for one will not be doing any call ins until this ballot is passed by all 3 stations although i do think the union has done a good job after attending todays meeting.:ok:

Robot1

6th Mar 2008, 12:06

I'm really not sure there will be the numbers for the standby scheme to work. Leaving aside any bad feeling and looking at it from a totally pragmatic point of view, standby has implications for staff that adhoc didn't.

From the point of view of planning family life, the standby duty must be viewed as a full rostered duty.

I really want this situation resolved at this stage, but don't want to feel pressured into signing up just to make it work.

However, I'm getting ahead of myself a little, the ballot hasn't even gone through yet.

catullus

6th Mar 2008, 12:40

robot 1 remember its voluntary you can vote for the package but you dont have to sign up for the call in !

qnhhpa

6th Mar 2008, 13:30

Anyone have the details of the latest situation?
PM me if you wish.

Yahweh

6th Mar 2008, 17:49

Yep, anyone pm me the latest details also. I've been away for a few days and don't know what's goin on :confused:

Has anything changed from the first union meeting? Has management agreed to everything on the list? When does the ballot take place?

thorisgod

6th Mar 2008, 21:25

Not official, just my understanding, but if you have the print out of the list from the BIG info meeting, I think almost everything is agreed except the "Annual Leave versus Projects" section.( This concerns 3 ATCOs in SHA and 2 in DUB to be permanently assigned to each team to provide A/L and guarantee a certain number of applications for each day):*

Both night shifts will be finishing before 0830 but some swings will have to start 0830 (till 1630) instead of 0930 (till 1730):cool:

I think there is negotiations to start a smaller SCP8 earlier if not enough Direct Entries are obtained.:D

Standbys have to be used before "Old Style" call-ins can be used.
And OT will be capped. 12hrs per cycle and 24 total in a year (might be wrong about the figures.

I'm sure I will be corrected if any of this is wrong

Thorisgod

sejo

6th Mar 2008, 23:42

From Eurocontrol CFMU AIM...

CLOSURE DUBLIN AIRSPACE
Valid from: 2008-03-06
until: 2008-03-07
Released: 2008-03-06 20:29:01

CLOSURE OF DUBLIN AIRSPACE
--------------------------
.
REGULATION ID: EIDWG07 FROM 06/2330 UTC UNTIL 07/0630 UTC
.
DUE TO LACK OF STAFF NO TRAFFIC WILL BE ACCEPTED
.
AO'S ARE INVITED TO UPDATE THEIR FLIGHTPLANS OR SENT A
CANCELLATION MESSAGE IF THEY DO NOT WANT TO OPERATE
PLS DO NOT CALL THE HELPDESK FOR ANY IMPROVEMENTS FOR THE
ABOVE MENTIONED REGULATION
.
CFMU OPERATION DIVISION BRUSSELS

Is this related to lack of overtime, or something else?

Cheers,
Sean

IKEANO

8th Mar 2008, 22:24

ballot postponed til next week. Dub management have thrown a ''spanner''(ie kevin) into the works. Roster changes at the 11th hour.
tune in next week.

cross_Country

8th Mar 2008, 22:35

Does anyone know with regard to the rostered stand-by duty, If you need to be off for this and you havent organised a swap for it, what if any is the mechanism for handling it? :confused:

IKEANO

8th Mar 2008, 23:07

.....go sick

confused atco

9th Mar 2008, 21:41

Why is the ballot being delayed.

I understood that the 5/3 roster was given.

Details of type and duties of station specific elements to be agreed locally.

What has this level of detail to do with the LRC recommendation?

baw676

10th Mar 2008, 10:28

Because the Boss wasn't asked apparently, so he has decided to throw the spanner into the works.

Loxley

22nd Mar 2008, 12:19

All gone very quiet over there.............Any news or progress in your battles with IAA management?

gulia

23rd Mar 2008, 17:09

Wat is the lates situation Dublin. We in India also underwent similar or worse treatment from the management. I can fully understand wat is going in there. Keep it up mates and good luck to all

SINGAPURCANAC

23rd Mar 2008, 18:37

All gone very quiet over there
Money couldn't solve all problems.
But, LOT of money may change this rule!

ock1f

23rd Mar 2008, 19:01

Yes it has gone very quiet-we are only heard when things aren't ok-normally we are good worker bee's who just want to get on with their jobs.

First to all those in the northern and southern hemisphere's thanks for all your support. It was noticed and appreciated.

While open to contradiction on this things are almost sorted. There should be 22 to 24 direct entries on the way shortly (hopefully) We have one class of 36 students who have their first month just completed and now our union in conjunction with management will have a say when each next class will start. The next class is earmarked for the first quarter of 2009 or earlier if the direct atcos numbers aren't reached. Our rosters have had a shake up too and we now have hand-over times built in as well.

So our primary concern was lack of staff and all the associated problems that brought with it - it would appear that is now in hand -for the time being anyway.

The overtime /call -in issue has been solved too with the huge amount of 42 euro to be payed weekly to the people who sign up to giving the company 12 rest days in order to be on-call. Show's Up O leary to be the misinformed fool that he is!

There is a hold up at the moment with the rosters in dub having hit a bump in the road. As we operate a "nothing is agreed until evertything is agreed policy" then all the other stuff is in limbo too. But hopefully it will all be sorted shortly.

In the end coomon sense prevailed at the top and hopefully the promises regarding staff numbers will be upheld.

Ock1f

DFC

24th Mar 2008, 10:25

Overtime is no longer a safety issue because it is better paid and there will be possible changes somewhere in the future.

Direct entries progression to be carefully limited by union pressure on management to ensure that they do not get ahead of the most junior current member of staff.

In other words - same old, same old.

It is the teachers turn now - the annual run up to exam time dispute season is near at hand. Never let it be said that unions will hold us to ransom just to get more money.

Regards,

DFC

sevenstar

24th Mar 2008, 15:16

You again dfc-just woken up i take it judging by the verbal runny stuff coming out of your mouth:yuk::yuk::ugh::ugh:

Overtime is no longer a safety issue because it is better paid and there will be possible changes somewhere in the future

No- overtime now strictly regulated not like the free for all there was before. This free for all was well documented earlier in the thread-go read up on it. It was a safety issue - and to say otherwise is wrong.

I cant be arsed to tell you what the new regulations are as you won't listen anyway but the for everyone else who is interested it puts much needed caps on how much overtime/calliins can be done per twist per month and per year. And again for your information dfc the overtime is not better paid its exactly the same rate as before. The only thing is that 42 euro a week is paid for whoever wants to give 12 days to the company . Not a great deal of money at all. Especially not to a high flying idiot like you.

Direct entries progression to be carefully limited by union pressure on management to ensure that they do not get ahead of the most junior current member of staff

You obviously dont absorb anything you read.

In other words - same old, same old.

wrong again-major changes have happened because of our actions. Changes for the good-not only for us as controllers but also for you guys driving the bus as we look after you and aslo by extension the travelling public.

So go crawl under whatever neanderthal rock you woke up under this morning.

7*

thorisgod

24th Mar 2008, 16:21

DFC, if you are a pilot then you are probably earning 3 times more an hour than I am. Which is still 1 1/2 times my overtime pay.

So i guess you are right, it is the same old same old.
Those who earn more begrudging lesser earners improving themselves.

I don't expect you to care that we are now operating a safer, more healthy and happier work environment. I do expect you to take every oppurtunity to put down others.

Direct-entry ATCO's are being hired at a pay level on our scale commensurate with their years experience. So keep looking for holes in our arguments but the only hole you'll see is your own because your head is so far up it.

Thorisgod

irishatco

25th Mar 2008, 07:43

DFC, still without a clue or fact to your name. No posts from you for an age, then, following an informative post from OCK, you start again. But you've no info , other than that contained in the post. That must be very frustrating! So, time to take your bull**** apart

Overtime is no longer a safety issue because it is better paid and there will be possible changes somewhere in the future.

Overtime remains a safety issue, thats why it's being regulated - of course you dont know the details - but that wont stop you!

Direct entries progression to be carefully limited by union pressure on management to ensure that they do not get ahead of the most junior current
This is Your HANGUP, due to your own personal experience. There are no limitations for Direct Entries, other than those that pertain to all Staff members.
Hey, what about the Contract Staff, you didnt mention them? Oh yeah, thats because nothing is posted here about them - and this would appear to be your only source of info. Fallen out with our old buddies have we?

In other words - same old, same old.

Correct, same old DFC, opinions on everything, facts on nothing. Must be very frustrating for you!

It is the teachers turn now - the annual run up to exam time dispute season is near at hand. Never let it be said that unions will hold us to ransom just to get more money
The only paper in Ireland running with this was the Oirish Daily Mail. Their knowlege base is about as good as yours. Small words for idiots.Given your track record for spelling, its no wonder this is your "paper" of choice:O
Worried that your Junior Cert will be delayed? Thought as much

Thorisgod put it best

So keep looking for holes in our arguments but the only hole you'll see is your own because your head is so far up it.

Brilliant

Knowlege is power - you have neither, so be a good boy and run along.
see you next tuesday

Regards ,

Irishatco

DFC

25th Mar 2008, 20:56

Overtime remains a safety issue, thats why it's being regulated

Not yet it is not (being regulated).

One day overtime was being refused because it was a safety issue.

Next day......and many days since, overtime was being conducted as if nothing had happened.

The only difference is that;

people have been sitting back and working out the details of the deal for themselves. A bit of peace while people decide how to vote and all that. Also, we still await a resolution of the Dublin roster issue.

So nothing has changed at the moment. It might in the future but one can not balme the average joe for asking why doing overtime is unsafe one week but perfectly safe the next with absolutely no changes yet.........other than the promise of more money

and restricting the money grabbers from doing it all so that everyone who wants to gets a slice of the cake;)

Regards,

DFC

ock1f

25th Mar 2008, 22:51

God almighty give me patience :sad:

Dfc- in all fairness are you really as thick and stupid as you appear here ?

Overtime in itself is not a safety issue-over reliance on overtime is. Excessive overtime is. Excxeesive overtime focused in the early hours is.

If i do 1 overtime duty on my middle rest day in the next two months then thats fine. Its reasonable and not excessive. If i do 6 overtime duties in the next 6 weeks then that is not ok as its excessive.

As has been said before by sevenstar there are now regulations in place limiting overtime. Thats good for everybody. When its all signed sealed and delivered it remains to be seen how much overtime wilbe required when the direct entries come on stream. It also remains to be seeen how many sign up to giving the company 12 rest days to go on-call. If the new overtime arrangements with their new limits dont cover the shortfall needed to safely run the service then you will be serving free drinks to delayed customers down the back as i am now convinced you must be the best and most informed trolley dolley in aviation. :O

There is no question of an arrangement to give a slice of the cake to more people as you have to ask for that slice and actively sign up for it. So if only ten people did overtime before and only ten feel like doing it now then only ten will be available. No more than before see :ugh: The call-in rates have not changed by a cent either.

I dont know who you are but you obviously have a major chip on each shoulder from your time in the IAA or the Aer Corp or whoever it was . You know diddly about this situation and have done nothing but intentionally antagonise people. You probbaly think thats cool. People have done their damnest to reply to your posts with good grace and information and all have been rewarded by insults . Im sure if i met you on the street you would initially appear a reasonable fellow but thats the worrying part. jekyll and hyde:eek:

Hopefully in the very near future we will be back to "normal" - we can start to put this episode behind us and get with with our jobs-pure and simple. Then this thread will fade away and Dfc will have to dispense infinite wisdom , advice and opinions (otherwise known as pettyness,bullsh*t and headsofaruphisownar*ehecanseesunlight) to others.

Bring on the day :ok:

Yours as ever
Ock1f

DFC

25th Mar 2008, 23:42

ock1F,

When its all signed sealed and delivered it remains to be seen how much overtime wilbe required

It also remains to be seeen how many sign up to giving the company 12 rest days to go on-call. If the new overtime arrangements with their new limits dont cover the shortfall needed to safely run the service

What does not remain to be seen is that the safety card was pulled but put firmly back into the pocket once some promisses were made which as you say remain to be seen.

Safety is very black and white. Pilots don't like dealing with ATC who in regard to safety say things like;

it remains to be seen

let's suck it and see

let's sit back and see how it works out

it will be better in the future so that makes it OK now.

To claim something is unsafe and then (regarless of promisses for future action) continue to do it is simply admitting to ignoring the risks in the hope that it (remains to be seen) will perhaps mayby possible improve.

Imagine an Aer Lingus aircraft with a safety related issue. No problem we will fix that in a few months so it is now no longer a safety issue.

Hey we just missed that other aircraft by a few feet, but it isn't a safety issue because they promisse not to do it again for a few months and then they will only do it once or twice per year.

So was overtime a safety issue or not?

Regards,

DFC

itsnotme

26th Mar 2008, 00:20

it remains to be seen

let's suck it and see

let's sit back and see how it works out

because the iaa have a habit of reneging on promises

IRISH ATCOS WILL NOT TOLERATE ANYMORE BROKEN DEALS

DFC

26th Mar 2008, 00:25

The need for overtime has not suddenly changed.

The voluntary overtime ban has disapeared.

That is the only change so far.

Everything else remains to be seen.

If excess overtime was required 1 or 2 months ago then for the next while it will be required also.

Are you now saying that there was no ongoing requirement for excessive overtime, the system could and is currently coping with the staff doing a reasonable level of overtime and that is safe?

Or are you saying that the requirement for excess overtime is still there but it is being done because perhaps things will get better someting in the future?

It has to be one of the above so which one do you think it is?

Regards,

DFC

Nogbad the Bad

26th Mar 2008, 12:13

Dfc- in all fairness are you really as thick and stupid as you appear here ?

Hmmmm...seems so :8

baw676

27th Mar 2008, 12:07

I had DFC on my ignore list but i needed a good laugh so i took him off and i got said Laugh by reading his posts. You should see what is written about him in other threads as well. He doesn't just keep his knuckles dragging in this thread.

beamwidth

27th Mar 2008, 14:25

NATS UK have just placed an ad for direct entries, couple that with recruitment from DFS, Eurocontrol, and the Sandpit, who will be left to fill our vacancies when the IAA get round to Advertising for the same?

DFC

27th Mar 2008, 16:27

You should see what is written about him in other threads as well

You should;

A very constructive post by dfc and a possible insight..........

This is a site for discussion and debate not a dating or wife swap site. :E

--------

beamwidth,

There was never much chance of having many experienced Civil ATCO applicants for the positions even with no other provider recruiting. No experienced controller holding current multiple vaildations in the Civil world is going to want what the IAA are going to offer.

The Union is against parachuting Experienced external ATCOs into what are seen as "senior" positions which is of course what is needed along with rationalisation of the current structure and ending the single validations positions.

Never mind NATS recruiting externally, one has to wonder why over the years when the IAA was recruiting NATS attracted so many people from the Ireland (North and South) - including experienced IAA ATCOs onto it's Student intake?

Regards,

DFC

beamwidth

27th Mar 2008, 19:15

DFC,

No experienced controller holding current multiple vaildations in the Civil world is going to want what the IAA are going to offer

Thats incorrect, already here

The Union is against parachuting Experienced external ATCOs into what are seen as "senior" positions which is of course what is needed along with rationalisation of the current structure and ending the single validations positions

That's bull****, what "senior" posts are these?

Never mind NATS recruiting externally, one has to wonder why over the years when the IAA was recruiting NATS attracted so many people from the Ireland (North and South) - including experienced IAA ATCOs onto it's Student intake?

Why dont you tell us, you were that ATCO, weren't you? BTW your vanity is quite astounding - you were not an experienced ATCO when you left these shores for Hurn, and you certainly didn't get any experience with NATS - gotta complete the training!

DFC

28th Mar 2008, 10:44

What positions would these be DFC?

The position in terms of salary, qualification and future promotion prospects that a person who progressed normally through the IAA ATCO promotion system would expect to be at after 15 to 20 or so years qualified service.

No controllers are going to take a backward career step just to work for the IAA unless they are despirate to live in Ireland. There has to be career progression and no union enforced glass ceiling on people who do take up the proposed positions.

--------

Why dont you tell us, you were that ATCO, weren't you? BTW your vanity is quite astounding - you were not an experienced ATCO when you left these shores for Hurn, and you certainly didn't get any experience with NATS - gotta complete the training!

No. Never worked for NATS. You will just have to keep guessing. :p

There are people from Ireland (Republic) working as qualified ATCOs at ScOACC, MACC and LACC (AC as well as TC). In most cases they never worked for the IAA prior to Joining NATS. An ex IAA ATCO that moved across if I remember correctly bowed out before leaving the College.

Do you think that these people will seriously look at moving back? Is moving back to Ireland worth giving up a career for?

Regards,

DFC

ock1f

28th Mar 2008, 15:17

Dfc-First of all if you are going to qoute me on this thread dont use my words from another unrelated thread.

And judging by your personality i'd say getting invited to some seeedy wife swap thing is the probably the only chance you have of seeing some real action.

Generally when someone has really strong opinions and views on a subject they have evidence and fact to back them up. You Dfc are devoid of both.

The direct entries are in two different groups. The 3 year contract group who are free to negotiate whatever they want for 3 years and tehn thats that-bye bye or renegotiate. The second group are being offered permanent and pensionbale positions-starting on a point on the salary scale commensurate with their experience. So Joe blogs with 10 yrs will join at the 10th point on the scale. The ONLY conditions are they have to serve the same amount of time in the IAA as all other controllers do before being eligible for promotion. Which isn't that much-a couple of years or some such. So on balance i think this job will attract plenty.

There is no glass ceiling for the DE's and a normal career progression on merit grounds like everyone else. That probably makes you a bit jealous tho-people getting promoted on merit.

The Union is against parachuting Experienced external ATCOs into what are seen as "senior" positions which is of course what is needed along with rationalisation of the current structure and ending the single validations positions

Are you the union or something?. Because only someone who could speak for the union and on behalf of its members could make such a statement.
If you are not on the union or even an Impact-Atc union member then you are spoofing and full of hot air and bullsh*t.

There is no parachuting of staff. And i love your idea of "senior postions". Once again you proudly demonstrate your total ignorance of the iAA and its controllers. We have a salary scale you progress along over the years until you have done your required amount of time at which if you so chose you can apply for UCE positions or watch manager or domain specilaist if you have developed some particular skill or knowledge level over the years. Or you can continue to be an ordinary honest hard working controller until you retire.

A bit like you going for an instructors job on a diesal Cessna 172 because you know all about the exact internal fuel line specifications! Or you apparently do-tho plenty of others seem to think you are making it up as you go along. But thats just me reporting what i've read on pprune-id never dream of lecturing you on diesal cessna 172's or fuel line or indeed make huge overpowering statements because i just dont know that much about them.

I have emplored you to read the posts here and absorb the info in them and each time you just continue on with your small minded ignorant idea's that just make you look like the biggest assh*le around.

Again just read what has been said by way of letting you know what the situation is. If your posts continue on and on like they have done then i can only assume that 1) you cant read 2) you cant help being an assh*le 3) youl live in some parrallel universe while working for the IAA.

Yours as ever
Ock1f

DFC

28th Mar 2008, 15:56

The ONLY conditions are they have to serve the same amount of time in the IAA as all other controllers do before being eligible for promotion.

In other words, an Area Radar controller with say Supervisor and OJTI experience plus some backgorund specialist role experience and 15 years in the job when they join the IAA will have to have 30 years ATC experience before being counted as equivalent in terms of promotion prospects as a person with experience limited to the IAA operation and 15 years experience.

That is not a glass ceiling, it is a Steel Roof.

There is no glass ceiling for the DE's and a normal career progression on merit grounds like everyone else

That does not say the same as what you said above.

There can not be promotion on merit when you have two people - one with 5 years experience in the IAA and a basic valid ATCO and another with 20 Years ATC experience, OJTI, Specialst Role experience, etc but only 4 years in the IAA......according to your first statement the more experienced controller will not get the job because the one with less merit meets the number of years in the IAA criteria.

All you are going to get for the permanent positions are Irish Military and Regional Airport controllers - none of whom have any Area Radar experience.

A few Foreign ATCOs will apply for the 3 years contrtact - nice way to try living in Ireland and with the early retirement available in ceratin providers - a way of having a bit of cake and eating it.

It will do nothing to sort out the problems.

Has no one in the Union or the IAA ever wondered why most airlines recruit direct entry Captains and don't put them in the right seat until the current FOs have passed over to the left seat?

Regards,

DFC

sevenstar

28th Mar 2008, 16:36

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

:*:*:*:*

:yuk:

:{

:bored:

:(

Amounts to same thing as what dfc writes

ock1f

28th Mar 2008, 16:51

What drugs are you on?

In other words, an Area Radar controller with say Supervisor and OJTI experience plus some backgorund specialist role experience and 15 years in the job when they join the IAA will have to have 30 years ATC experience before being counted as equivalent in terms of promotion prospects as a person with experience limited to the IAA operation and 15 years experience.

That is not a glass ceiling, it is a Steel Roof

Go back and read my post-and again i refer to my post above CAN YOU READ ?

Well can you?

Whats all this crap about needing 30 yrs of experience to be eliglibe for promotion. Again you demonstrate your ignorance! I can see how you your little brain came to that conclusion BUT IF YOU HAD READ MY POST you would know thats not the case.

The requirement is for a few years service before being allowed go for promtion or even going onto the expert grade. Nearly all the controllers in the IAA (maybe not the last class of SCP's due to the debacle of their training programme) are eligable for this and 95% are on the expert grade. Even that last class will be eligible soon too and so too will the DE's .

IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU

And by the way many airlines do hire direct entry captains before the their own FO gets a chance because the FO is not yet ready or able for a command.

Do some basic homework you.

Good day-im off out with the kids to enjoy the rest of the aftrenoon and not waste it on an infantile ignorant little know it all-who actually knows diddly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

Yours as ever
Ock1f

ock1f

28th Mar 2008, 16:55

And just before i go-the overtime regs are being used now . No point in not using them when they will be "official" in a short while anyway.

And dont lecture us on safety when you obviously have to brush up on that yourself according to your own aviator colleagues.

And why are you doing your best to scare any interested Atco here on enquiring about working for the IAA either contarct or permanent?

Go-explain your motives dfc boy

Yours as ever
Ock1f

DFC

28th Mar 2008, 17:09

And by the way many airlines do hire direct entry captains before the their own FO gets a chance because the FO is not yet ready or able for a command.

No. They do it because they want the most experienced perople they can get and when they get them they want to use that experience to it's full extent.

Do you think that an airline will recruit a Captain TRI/TRE and put them in the right seat or even put them in the left and not very quickly use their skills as a TRI/TRE?

With the right package the IAA could attract very experienced ATCOs. However, that is simply not going to happen.

You can take the IAA out of the Civil Service but you can not take the Civil Service out of the IAA. :rolleyes:

Regards

DFC

DFC

28th Mar 2008, 17:16

And why are you doing your best to scare any interested Atco here on enquiring about working for the IAA either contarct or permanent?

Not the intention at all.

Some would say that I have given you the perfect opportunity to convince prospective applicants that it is worth applying for but I don't think that you can give them any good news!

The point I am making is that after all the fuss, nothing has changed and nothing much is going to change for another 12 months. The only question is will there be another "voluntary work ban" in 11 months time?

Regards,

DFC

DFC

28th Mar 2008, 21:29

2 years DFC. Thats the length of time it will take a direct entry to become eligible to undertake expert functions (OJT, project work, co-ordination and so on).

Thank's Macker.

Sounds more reasonable than the "you have to be with the IAA as long as everyone else that wants the position". :rolleyes:

Still think that the whole things is not going to work and nothing will be different. Just look at the complaints regarding the German positions.

You even have Ock1f et al sniffing round the NATS proposed recruitment. Can't see anyone of them leaving though! :)

Regards,

DFC

wiccan

28th Mar 2008, 23:29

DFC
You have [obviously] got some great weed man.....can you share it with me...
pleeeease?
bb

badback

29th Mar 2008, 11:57

Thank's Macker.

Sounds more reasonable than the "you have to be with the IAA as long as everyone else that wants the position". :rolleyes:

Surely you were aware of the conditions attached to appointment to the Expert grade, you certainly like to give the impression you are?

qnhhpa

29th Mar 2008, 16:26

What has actually been acheived? What has changed?

Nothing has been implemented. Its all only promises. Look at the IAA's record there.

"4 contract ATCO's comencing training by March 2008"

Anyone seen any yet?

"Call in scheme"

- anyone been paid anything?

- anyone signed up?

- anyone been asked to sign up?

And people are doing overtime now anyway. Why would the IAA bother bringing it in?

"5 and 3 roster cycle is permanent unless otherwise agreed"

As long as we work longer duties with rest periods of less than the legal minimum of 11 hours in between them.

thorisgod

29th Mar 2008, 22:31

There's a guy in Shannon for the last month training in ops (only FDC at the moment though)

You have to admit that the atmosphere is vastly improved.

confused atco

30th Mar 2008, 13:20

There's a guy in Shannon for the last month training in ops (only FDC at the moment though)

There are 3 direct entry so far.

One currently training in Shannon Tower, and 2 (one is passing the time at present doing FDC) for High level course starting next month.

Roll on the other 17 !!!!

DFC

31st Mar 2008, 10:26

qnhhpa,

Carefull. Don't upset the bruvers. They will be in your face quicker than a Dublin Official at Parnell Park!!! :eek:

-----

Macker,

The 2 year post validation requirement is standard with many providers. However, Ock1f seemd to confirm the union position that direct entries are not to be permitted to delay the career progression of current employees (even those with no experience). Which is something totally different.

Probably explains why someone says;
One currently training in Shannon Tower

That would be nice - well paid retirement job doing diddly helping staff an already overstaffed position.

Nothing like the IAA to put people where they are most needed!!!

No truth in the rumour that direct entries will simply fill positions so that incumbents can be "promoted" then :D

A few failures from the incumbents and like I say nothing will have changed in 12 months time.

Regards,

DFC

irishatco

31st Mar 2008, 12:59

DFC, I'm going to be nice to you on this post!

That would be nice - well paid retirement job doing diddly helping staff an already overstaffed position.
Nothing like the IAA to put people where they are most needed!!!

2 points here.
1) Said person in tower is Tower rated elsewhere, so quickest route to go live is to revalidate on a current rating, wouldn't you think?
2) The people are needed everywhere.This Tower body will free up a Multi-rated ATCO, to provide ATS with their other ratings in the busy UACC/ACC.
The Union have not decided who the IAA employ, the IAA have.

No truth in the rumour that direct entries will simply fill positions so that incumbents can be "promoted" then

I'm not sure what promotions you mean. We have a direct progression here on the ATCO scale. Promotions to another grade are not dependant on ATCOs being brought in to replace anyone

Are there promotions coming up, and if so, where?

Kindest regards,
Your buddy

Irishatco

ock1f

31st Mar 2008, 13:35

Macker,

The 2 year post validation requirement is standard with many providers

Dfc-its not a 2 year probation period.

However, Ock1f seemd to confirm the union position that direct entries are not to be permitted to delay the career progression of current employees (even those with no experience). Which is something totally different.

DfC-i know how thing must "seem" to you in your world but again you are wrong. Plain wrong.

Your total lack of knowledge and solid info is astounding. What makes it even more astounding is that people like Macker,Irishatco et al are doing and have done their best to educate you. You are apparently beyond education and seem destined to forever be the dumass here.

Yours as ever
Ock1f

divingduck

31st Mar 2008, 20:27

another one starting in May:E

DFC

31st Mar 2008, 23:19

1) Said person in tower is Tower rated elsewhere, so quickest route to go live is to revalidate on a current rating, wouldn't you think?
2) The people are needed everywhere.This Tower body will free up a Multi-rated ATCO, to provide ATS with their other ratings in the busy UACC/ACC.

Let me see if I have this correct. The IAA claim they are short of ATCOs "everywhere". The answer is to have a direct entry ATCO recruited and trained at a position to "free up" a controller already doing that position to go elsewhere.

I am not the only one who sees this as simply playing musical chairs.

The net result being a fat 0 gain at Shannon tower. A loss if one includes the training requirement and the loss of an experienced ATCO.

The IAA may do the recruiting but the influence of the union bruvers keeps their hands firmly tied. You only have to look at where all the union reps go to after their years of "service" to the bruverhood! :D

Regards,

DFC

ock1f

31st Mar 2008, 23:54

Same old same old when it comes to dfc!

Let me see if I have this correct. The IAA claim they are short of ATCOs "everywhere". The answer is to have a direct entry ATCO recruited and trained at a position to "free up" a controller already doing that position to go elsewhere.

I am not the only one who sees this as simply playing musical chairs.

The net result being a fat 0 gain at Shannon tower.

Yes Dfc you are seeing it wrong......again!

The DE who is tower rated elsewhere will check out quickest in the tower here-stands to reason. That will free a multi rated controller to work in the center. But the important thing that you forget dfc, is that mlti rated controller STILL has their tower rating and so there is a gain of one in the tower.
Most Atco's are multi rated/talented and that is how we run things so cheaply and efficiently-in that a controller could be in a radar postion in the morning and in the tower in the afternoon depending on rating and staffing requirements. Its a bit complex so i don't expect you to understand it.

The only "fat 0 gain" is between your ears :p

This whole situation blew up because of the fact that our staffing numbers were so low(but soon to be fixed) that on occasion there would be no-one with a tower rating (just for example) rosterd on. Or there might have been one tower rated controller on who also had a radar rating that was also in short supply and so the choice was to either close the tower or close the center fl245 and below. The course of lesser consequence was obviuosly to close the tower and keep the center open.

The IAA may do the recruiting but the influence of the union bruvers keeps their hands firmly tied. You only have to look at where all the union reps go to after their years of "service" to the bruverhood

Really dfc-just another one of your conspiracy theories. Once again you demonstrate the fact that you are incapable of accepting any information that does not agree with your own pre-conceived idiotic notions.

Explain how the union exactly is tieing the company's hands when it comes to recruitment? Id love to hear to hear your thoughts on that one. You made the statement above now back it up with evidence......come on then.

From where im standing the staff/union have secured 22 to 24 DE's that the company would not have bothered with. The staff/union secured a 50% increase in the current SCP class. And if the for whatever reason the number of DE's does not meet the target then we have the option of starting the next class early. Thats my evidence-where is yours??????

If you come on here posting in such a condescending manner without anything to back your opinions up,it just shows what an opinionated condescending idiot you are.

Your total lack of knowledge and solid info is astounding. What makes it even more astounding is that people like Macker,Irishatco et al are doing and have done their best to educate you. You are apparently beyond education and seem destined to forever be the dumass here.

Yours as ever

Ock1f

DFC

1st Apr 2008, 09:51

The idea of doing over time or being overworked is supposed to be dnagerous but you say it is OK to;

Most Atco's are multi rated/talented and that is how we run things so cheaply and efficiently-in that a controller could be in a radar postion in the morning and in the tower in the afternoon depending on rating and staffing requirements

You have no evidence.

22 to 24 DE's

Dream on my friend. It would take 2 years minimum for those to materialise even if suitable ones could be found. If 10 new members of staff validate in the next year and a half you can count yourself lucky.

Come back when you

a) Can show that there are 22 DE ATCOs validated.

and

b) You can appreciate someone who has dug you out of a hole and saved your ass. You were not so quick to call a "dumb ass" then were you?

Regards,

DFC

ock1f

1st Apr 2008, 10:38

Dfc-whoever said that working both in morning and afternoon is dangerous.? Its our normal working day. Where did i mention overtime? Where did mention being overworked? If the work is outside the working week and is excessive its wrong ,dangerous and unsafe-but only then.

I really dont get what you are harping on about. We turn up in the morning go home in the late afternnon and fully expect to work those hours in between. With the required fatigue breaks of course. So how is that dangerous and unsafe. Come on put a cohesive arguemnet together if you can.

You have no evidence.

For what exactly?

There will be 4 De done by the end of the summer at the latest. Not a bad start.

The 22 to 24 DE's is in writing between the company and ourselves. Its there in black in white. On paper. Evidence enough. With permanent positions on offer its should be quite attractive to enough people with more than a few years under their belt. And the contract side of it makes it quite good for the ones who want to see this side of the world for a few years. The terms and conditions on both aren't bad at all.

If the required number of DE's dont for whatever reason show up we have the option of pulling in the next class of SCp's early. Of course we would prefer the DE's but we have a back up at least.

So as soon as the IAA get the finger out and recruit and advertise then at the moment its looking pretty good.

You still have to explain why you are so openly hostile to all things IAA and specifically to controllers.?

Yours as ever

Ock1f

PS-i take each of your posts individually-i have complemented you before on some excellent posting and berated you for some terrible posting. One thing for sure is there is never a dull moment when DFc is around:ok:

pm210668

1st Apr 2008, 16:30

IAA HR have confirmed that only direct entries with civilian ATC experience will be considered.

So, that rules out the military guys....

irishatco

1st Apr 2008, 17:05

pm210668

The words "gentleman's" and "agreement" come to mind.

qnhhpa

1st Apr 2008, 17:41

So I count 3 Direct entries so far, 1 in Shannon tower, 2 waiting for a Shannon High Level course.
And with 1 starting in May, adds up to 4 I guess but not by the end of March 2008.

No military (Irish I presume) allowed for whatever reason reduces the pool of possible Direct entries. And I hear local civil possiblities have asked for and received a significant pay rise...

Have the IAA advertised for any direct entries yet?

Its going to be a long Summer or two or three or four...

IRLATCO

1st Apr 2008, 17:53

Approx 6 Direct Entries so far for Shannon and 2 for Dublin along with wholesale roster changes(All for the better may I add) and an advertisement campaign to kick off very shortly now that all issues have been balloted on and accepted. There has been an increasing amount of interest for both the permanent direct entry and contract schemes despite the lack of advertisements.Amazing what word of mouth can do.DFC please dont bother applying.The thought of you eating so much humble pie sickens me. So the ball is now firmly rolling in the right direction and it would appear that it will only gather momentum as the months go by.No one was ever under the illusion that we would get a mass exodus from other ANSP's immediately but to have 8 without an ad in Flight ,well not bad.By the way dont forget the ATCO's released back into OPS from C+T as a result of the new instructors.

qnhhpa

1st Apr 2008, 18:19

IRLATCO, do you have start date(s) and/or ratings for the two Direct entries for Dublin?

thorisgod

1st Apr 2008, 18:41

This is what we thought was wrong and how we wanted it fixed:

http://www.impact.ie/iopen24/pub/newsdesk_info.php?newsdesk_id=112

This is what the LRC said

http://www.iaa.ie/corp_fin/show_news.asp?ID=457

(and I used the IAA's own website to prove honesty and fairness)

Results would indicate that the LRC agreed with us. Which goes to show that the best way for the IAA to be managed going forward is through the input of staff (all staff). Not the micro-managed, penny-pinching heretofore witnessed style.

All that remains is the minutae to be hammered out. From this point forward the service we provide is both safer for pilots and controllers.

New controllers enter the ranks as normal, DE's enter the ranks at a point relative to years of experience they bring. The only bar on progression is that one must have 2 years experience with the IAA before any new level can be achieved. This is true of me, all new controllers, existing controllers and DE's. While waiting for those 2 years to pass, one still moves up the pay scale each year. The next level after 2 years pass is an optional Expert grade. All this does is move one up 1 step on the payscale and make one liable to assignment to extra duties within the company.

Example 1. New controller 1st day, point 1 on the scale
Example 2. New controller 3 yrs experience and doesn't volunteer for extra duties, 3rd point on the scale (4th if he volunteers)
Example 3. DE with 12yrs previous experience, 1st day with IAA, 12th point on scale
Example 4 DE with 14 yrs experience 2 of which with the IAA, 14th point on the scale (15th if he volunteers)

See a pattern emerging? That's because we all are treated the same.:D

How can you have a problem with this?:*

Thorisgod

DFC

1st Apr 2008, 20:38

From this point forward the service we provide is both safer for pilots....

What makes it "safer"?

Never seen any evidence of it being unsafe. So what has happened to back up a claim of it being safer than before?

The same overtime requirements and so called lack of staff as there was in January and now a training requirement on top.

Direct entries need training and consolidation, students require extensive training and how many trainees will there be if you have 24 direct entries quickly followed by 2 large student classes?

You must have plenty of spare staff available to do that extra training........or will they do that as overtime. :E

How long before OJTI's start complaining that they are spending too much time training?

Never mind DE recruitment. Where is the training recruitment?????

---------

Gentleman's agreement = recruit the ex militaire from the regionals and have the current military go there. They will have validated civil experience long before the IAA have recruited 22 DEs and thus will be able to apply :D :D

Regards,

DFC

IRLATCO

1st Apr 2008, 21:12

qnhhpa-no info yet on start dates for direct entries for Dub. DFC-If you know anyone who can decipher English for you,please ask them to do so.Incidentally,scrap my idea of you applying to the IAA.You aint got a snowballs chance of passing the Language Proficiency Test and by the way to allay some of your concerns about the extra training,extra instructors have already been hired on a contractual basis for C+T,thus as I have already stated,releasing operational ATCO's back into the live enviornment.Also a class of 36 SCP's need only 36 OJTI's to train them.Imagine that!There are more than enough OJTI's in Shannon to meet that requirement so as far as your concern about them being overworked,well it may take about 2-3 years to train someone of your calibre but thank God someone of your intelligence would not even make it past the first round of interviews.

max1

2nd Apr 2008, 11:35

DFC,
you've been embarassing yourself since your first post, give it up you dope. As a checkie once said about someone doing rather badly' Its like watching puppies drown'.

thorisgod

2nd Apr 2008, 15:26

If no one is doing unmonitored and disproportionate amounts of overtime, then the likelyhood of an incident is greatly reduced. Wouldn't you agree DFC? Even you have to concede that point.

As for training: As we have a core of dedicated training staff in the school along with some Operational ATCOs, then hiring retirees to train students frees up the ATCOs for Ops. When the trainees (DE or students) enter the Ops environment they will be assigned an OJTI (On the Job Training Instructor) and work parallel to that OJTI in a live environment with the "control" of the sector slowly being passed over from the OJTI to the trainee over a period of days, weeks or months. While this is happening the OJTI and his/her trainee are counted as 1 person available on the operational roster. When the trainee "checks out" they can perform on their own (with the possible exception of not allowing 2 newly rated people to sit in the same sector)

At no time in this process has the number of operational ATCOs decreased. In fact it is steadily rising, eroding the need for overtime.

If you are a pilot, do you want to be controlled by (A)someone who has worked 8 day shifts and 4 night shifts in the previous 14 days, or would you prefer (B) a well rested and mentaly fit controller whose hours are monitored so fatigue is removed from the equation?:ugh:

A simple answer please, (A) or (B)